Cleveland Browns Official Website
NFL.com
NFL on ESPN.com
NFL on CBS
NFL on FOX
SportsIllustrated.com
Cleveland PlainDealer
Canton Repository
Akron BeaconJournal
DawgTalkers Pick'ems

Dawg Talkers Message Boards >> Everything Else...

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)
jfanent
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 10190
Loc: Oregon, Ohio

Just who are the poor in this country?
      #895524 - Mon Jan 30 2012 03:34 PM

This article reminded me of posts I see here and elsewhere insinuating that we should worry about feeding and sheltering our own hungry and poor before spending elsewhere.

What I find funny is that the polls take into consideration whether someone owns a vcr. I don't have one, do you?

Washington Examiner

Feds: ‘Poor’ Consume Like The Rich

byPaul Bedard
As President Obama crafts a reelection income equality message aimed at punishing the rich and rewarding the poor, his own government finds that the 46 million living below the so-called “poverty line” live and spend pretty much like everyone else.

Forget the image of Appalachia or rundown ghettos: A collection of federal household consumption surveys collected by pollster Scott Rasmussen finds that 74 percent of the poor own a car or truck, 70 percent have a VCR, 64 percent have a DVD, 63 percent have cable or satellite, 53 percent have a video game system, 50 percent have a computer, 30 percent have two or more cars and 23 percent use TiVo.

“What the government defines as poverty is vastly different from what most Americans envision,” he writes in his newly released book, “The People’s Money.” Consider other details from two recent Department of Agriculture surveys cited in the book:

--On an average day, just 1 percent of households have someone who is forced to miss a meal.

--On any day, children are hungry in .25 percent of U.S. homes.

--96 percent of poor parents say their children were never hungry during the year because they couldn’t afford food.

--83 percent of the poor said they have enough to eat.

Says Rasmussen, “About 40 million Americans are officially defined as living below the poverty line. Yet most of those have adequate levels of food, shelter, clothing and medical care. Sixty-three percent of American adults believe such a family is not living in poverty,” he writes. “Only 16 percent believe that a family is living in poverty if it has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, and a VCR, but that’s what the average family living in poverty has as defined by the U.S. government,” he adds.

Rasmussen, who condemns Washington for ignoring the public’s will to run out sky-high deficits, doesn’t mean to criticize households with earnings of $22,314, the 2010 poverty level for a family of four, but finds that the nation believes too much is being spent on welfare.

According to his polling in the new book, 71 percent believe too many are receiving federal welfare benefits and would like to see official measures of poverty tightened to reduce the number of eligible participants.

The president, however, is going the other way and even reviving plans to help homeowners refinance their mortgages, an idea similar to a stimulus-era idea that in part led to the Tea Party movement. Plus, Rasmussen reveals, the administration’s spending on means-tested programs like food stamps, public housing assistance, weatherization spending and others “is slated to continue growing dramatically even after the recession comes to an end.”

--------------------
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895527 - Mon Jan 30 2012 03:40 PM

Quote:

As President Obama crafts a reelection income equality message aimed at punishing the rich and rewarding the poor




Well, this is going to be an objective column without predetermined outcome.




... and 98% of them own a refridgerator.

"That's the problem with those poors... they still have their skin."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
jfanent
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 10190
Loc: Oregon, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895532 - Mon Jan 30 2012 03:58 PM

What's your definition of poverty?

--------------------
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
waterdawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 5666
Loc: Back home now !

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895533 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:02 PM

Steve ; don't know how old you are , or where you grew up .. I/m an old man and I have seen poor , dirt poor ... They dam sure didn't own cars and Tv's and cell phones ! Folks talk to me about the poor in the States and I just cringe and try the best I can to keep my big mouth shut !

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895536 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:07 PM

It tough to interpret people's interpretations of data. The linked below site says almost 15% of families struggle to put enough food on the table, referencing a 2008 USDA study, and that more than 12% of americans live below the poverty line, which is defined as a family of four's income at or below $21,756. I do't know how people doing that make it.

http://www.bread.org/hunger/us/facts.html


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
archbolddawg
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 15507


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895537 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:11 PM

Quote:

What's your definition of poverty?




Excellent question.

And, to Cleve, in relation to your statement: "Well, this is going to be an objective column without predetermined outcome.".........

Would it also be fair to state that perhaps our gov't.'s "poverty line" is skewed? (Notice I didn't say O's poverty line - I said our GOVERNMENT'S).

Poverty should not be defined in a "well, they have wants and needs" manner. Rather, it should be defined in a "do they have shelter, food, and clothing" manner. Let me put it this way - luxuries, or the lack of luxuries - should not determine "poverty".

Let's face it - the "poor" in this country are wealthy compared to the poor in most other countries. That's not saying let's ignore the poor - but if they have food, shelter, clothes, a car, t.v., computer, etc - are they really in "poverty"?

I would guess most of them have cell phones as well. Contrary to popular belief, a cell phone is NOT a necessity. Land lines are much cheaper

So - what is "poverty"?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Arps
Hall of Famer


Reged: Jan 09 2007
Posts: 3472
Loc: Middlebury Indiana

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: archbolddawg]
      #895539 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:16 PM

Not just cell phones...smart phones with internet and 50+ dollar a month bills.

--------------------
“What do you want me to say? Penalties are bad.”


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: waterdawg]
      #895540 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:16 PM

Certainly, the standard of living of america's poor is not as bad as it could be. Is it as good as it should be? Is it better than it should be? That's where I start to get fuzzy.

Does returning tax rates to where they were a dozen years ago really constitute "punishing" the rich? That's what is at the crux of this article as far as I can tell. Saying "our poor are too wealthy" just doesn't sit right with me.

*edit* it would be nice if the article published actual data about how Obama is rewarding the poor and punishing the rich, instead of just saying "America's poor has too much to be poor."

Edited by CleveSteve (Mon Jan 30 2012 04:21 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
jfanent
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 10190
Loc: Oregon, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895545 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:26 PM

My beef (no pun intended) is when I go to the meat market and people are paying with their food card for better cuts of meat than I buy, and driving away in a nicer vehicle than I have, and talking on a better cell phone than I have. This happens almost every time I go there. My tax money is funding someone else to eat, drive and communicate better than I do. I'm not jealous, I just don't think I should be paying for it.

--------------------
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895547 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:27 PM

That would irritate me too. Usually when I see people paying with WIC/EBT they're buying low-end stuff, so I haven't had the same experiences as you.

Edited by CleveSteve (Mon Jan 30 2012 04:27 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
PrplPplEater
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 19439
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: archbolddawg]
      #895548 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:28 PM

That is precisely the way it should be defined. I think people's minds are heavily skewed by how high our quality of living is here.

We are immensely fortunate to live the way we do in this country. Seriously. Simply the fact that people living on Gov't assistance have luxuries like televisions, cell phones, game consoles, etc... is testament to that. Forget whether it's right or wrong, it's fact and shows how highly skewed our perceptions are.


The poverty line as a dollar value is a tough one, too... I'd have to see how/why they came up with that number before I could agree with it.


In essence, you could probably cite the bottom tier in Maslow's Hierarchy as somewhere around where poverty begins. If you have trouble meeting those needs, or can't get much more than that, then that is absolutely poverty. For those that aren't familiar with it, it is a theory in psychology frequently taught in basic leadership courses. Those basic needs are the physiological needs - breathing, food, water, sex, sleep, etc.. you can also throw shelter and clothing in there.

--------------------
-Chris

"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PrplPplEater]
      #895552 - Mon Jan 30 2012 04:37 PM

does anybody know of an official resource that will tell you how much people can get in food stamps/EBT/SNAP?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Arps]
      #895565 - Mon Jan 30 2012 05:10 PM

Quote:

Not just cell phones...smart phones with internet and 50+ dollar a month bills.




Oh no ... you can get a free government sponsored cell phone ....... and you can pay the difference for more minutes and/or data plans.

I truly could not believe it when I saw that advertised.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PrplPplEater]
      #895579 - Mon Jan 30 2012 05:44 PM

you forgot beer because if im so broke i cant eat, live in a house, or have clothes, Im going to need a beer.

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.

Edited by NickBrownsFan (Mon Jan 30 2012 05:44 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #895583 - Mon Jan 30 2012 06:04 PM

Gotta have smokes too.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
no_logo_required
Legend


Reged: Oct 11 2006
Posts: 17918


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #895586 - Mon Jan 30 2012 06:10 PM

Quote:

you forgot beer because if im so broke i cant eat, live in a house, or have clothes, Im going to need a beer.




I can live in a dumpster and eat the food I find there using the trash bags as clothes.

But people don't throw out beer.

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #895604 - Mon Jan 30 2012 07:11 PM

so true,

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
PeteyDangerous
Hall of Famer


Reged: Jan 17 2007
Posts: 3468


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895608 - Mon Jan 30 2012 07:20 PM

Quote:

My beef (no pun intended) is when I go to the meat market and people are paying with their food card for better cuts of meat than I buy, and driving away in a nicer vehicle than I have, and talking on a better cell phone than I have. This happens almost every time I go there. My tax money is funding someone else to eat, drive and communicate better than I do. I'm not jealous, I just don't think I should be paying for it.




This is my issue too. It seems like our country's poor has their priorities all screwed up.

When I was a kid going to school, I never got very expensive shoes. My mother wouldn't buy them. She'd spend about 40 dollars on a pair of shoes for me. Yet I saw kids on the free lunch program wearing 80 dollar shoes, and owning multiple pairs.

My parents used to buy me Wrangler and Lee Jeans. They were not very expensive. Yet, kids on the free lunch program seemed to wear Tommy Hilfiger jeans and other expensive clothes.

I drive to my girlfriend's house, and I have to pass through a housing project to get there. Yet I drive through there and see plenty of BMW's and Mercedes Benz's. I can't afford that kind of car (I guess I can buy it, but it wouldn't make any sense; I don't make enough money to spend on a luxury like that).


And many children who are hungry are hungry because their parents are drug addicts. Their parents don't think about putting food in the refrigerator. Their parents don't care. I'd like to know how often that is the case.

There's people with food stamps who go, buy the cheapest soda cans they can, and then return them for the change. How many poor people smoke and drink? What kind of luxury is that?

My buddy works for Section 8, the fraud that goes on there from their clients is brutal. It drives him nuts. Yes, there are people who deserve it, but there's also a ton of people who come in with their hand out expecting hand outs. Tons of people who lie to their Section 8 evaluators to make them poorer than they are.

It's a major problem

--------------------
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
jfanent
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 10190
Loc: Oregon, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #895612 - Mon Jan 30 2012 07:26 PM

Quote:

When I was a kid going to school, I never got very expensive shoes. My mother wouldn't buy them. She'd spend about 40 dollars on a pair of shoes for me. Yet I saw kids on the free lunch program wearing 80 dollar shoes, and owning multiple pairs.





Lol. Boy am I old. My parents used to take us to Picway Shoe Mart for the "Man Alive, 2 for 5 sale. We were jealous of the kids that got the Converse for 10.99.

--------------------
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
crazyotto55
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 3689
Loc: Fremont, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895618 - Mon Jan 30 2012 07:47 PM

Seriously, now we're gonna rip the poor for not being poor enough?

You guys need a hobby.......

--------------------
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Heldawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: Aug 16 2007
Posts: 4605
Loc: Kailua, HI

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895622 - Mon Jan 30 2012 07:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

When I was a kid going to school, I never got very expensive shoes. My mother wouldn't buy them. She'd spend about 40 dollars on a pair of shoes for me. Yet I saw kids on the free lunch program wearing 80 dollar shoes, and owning multiple pairs.





Lol. Boy am I old. My parents used to take us to Picway Shoe Mart for the "Man Alive, 2 for 5 sale. We were jealous of the kids that got the Converse for 10.99.




You think you're old. My parents used to point me to the forest way up the hill for shoes. It was a blizzard out and I'd have to walk barefoot, uphill to try and find a decent piece of wood to carve.

Then I'd have to walk home uphill to get back.

But I could widdle me a mean pair clogs.



--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
PeteyDangerous
Hall of Famer


Reged: Jan 17 2007
Posts: 3468


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: crazyotto55]
      #895628 - Mon Jan 30 2012 08:13 PM

Quote:

Seriously, now we're gonna rip the poor for not being poor enough?

You guys need a hobby.......




Nope, just questioning where our tax dollars are going, that's all.

--------------------
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
jfanent
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 10190
Loc: Oregon, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: crazyotto55]
      #895632 - Mon Jan 30 2012 08:18 PM

Quote:

Seriously, now we're gonna rip the poor for not being poor enough?




Yeah, that's it. You have a remarkable ability to get to the meat of the matter.

I think the real debate is whether taxpayer funds should pay for the food and shelter for people that have luxury cars, cell phones, game consoles, nicer clothes than I do, etc.

--------------------
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
RocketOptimist
Dawg Talker


Reged: Jun 25 2010
Posts: 2081
Loc: Toledo, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895635 - Mon Jan 30 2012 08:28 PM

Who are we kidding? Those in power want the impoverished to be able to have all these material goods. It keeps those who many deem "undesirable" satisfied with owning fancy consumer electronics, nice cars, and be able to have an expensive meal.

The system currently keeps those in place and prevents a shakeup of the status quo. This is how hegemony works in America, folks.

Any real reform would provide an avenue for the impoverished to obtain meaningful jobs. These jobs would then open the way for these individuals to have some sort of leadership role based on their performance. But as I said, this isn't happening.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: crazyotto55]
      #895640 - Mon Jan 30 2012 08:37 PM

Quote:

Seriously, now we're gonna rip the poor for not being poor enough?

You guys need a hobby.......






No Otto, that isn't it at all.

It's all about being called rich when we aren't rich enough.


150K a year isn't rich by any means, but it is to anyone making less.


The point is if you want to talk about the poor not being poor enough, you need to start thinking the other way as well way my friend.


I'll admit, it does irk me to see a person use their American Flag "Credit Card" to get $180 of free food while I pay cash for mine then see them drive out in a vehicle that might be better than mine.


Seriously, I don't mind giving a helping hand. I really don't. We give above and beyond taxes, and I am not talking a few hundred, or even a few thousand extra. We give a few thousand here, and a few thousand there.


I just don't like Carrying people. If I have to do that, at least come over and cut my grass for me.


I'll also admit when the person in front of me in the grocery line uses their freebie card, I say "Your Welcome" as they are about to walk away.


I've gotten a few dirty looks.


Tough.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
waterdawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 5666
Loc: Back home now !

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: RocketOptimist]
      #895642 - Mon Jan 30 2012 08:40 PM

Just about the time I think I have heard it all ! The Rocket speaks ..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
jfanent
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 10190
Loc: Oregon, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: RocketOptimist]
      #895643 - Mon Jan 30 2012 08:42 PM

Quote:

Who are we kidding? Those in power want the impoverished to be able to have all these material goods. It keeps those who many deem "undesirable" satisfied with owning fancy consumer electronics, nice cars, and be able to have an expensive meal.

The system currently keeps those in place and prevents a shakeup of the status quo. This is how hegemony works in America, folks.

Any real reform would provide an avenue for the impoverished to obtain meaningful jobs. These jobs would then open the way for these individuals to have some sort of leadership role based on their performance. But as I said, this isn't happening.




I agree with all of that.

--------------------
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
dawglover05
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 13 2006
Posts: 5356
Loc: Mason

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #895683 - Mon Jan 30 2012 11:30 PM

I believe it's in Australia where they have a good welfare system. Basically, if you're on welfare, getting money and receiving support from the public, you become a public servant.

I don't mind supporting people who are in need, but I can't stand it when they have no incentive to change their lives or to become ambitious. If people don't want to get jobs and keep living off the system, then they should have to work for the system.

Clean up the city, power wash some buildings, sweep some streets. Earn the public support.

--------------------
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: dawglover05]
      #895691 - Tue Jan 31 2012 12:13 AM

Quote:

I believe it's in Australia where they have a good welfare system. Basically, if you're on welfare, getting money and receiving support from the public, you become a public servant.

I don't mind supporting people who are in need, but I can't stand it when they have no incentive to change their lives or to become ambitious. If people don't want to get jobs and keep living off the system, then they should have to work for the system.

Clean up the city, power wash some buildings, sweep some streets. Earn the public support.




I agree if you dont want to work for a living and live free off the system then you should work for the system. Soon or later they would get the fact that if they had that job paying them more it would be better to take that job.

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: dawglover05]
      #895707 - Tue Jan 31 2012 06:02 AM

I agree.

I think benefits should be reduced in a step down method.

After 9 months you go from one amount to a lower amount. Another 6 months the total drops further. You do this until the total benefits is lower than one would make working a minimum wage job.

You step them down so they are forced to make some cuts and see the reality of the situation.

This is about providing help and support. Not providing a livelihood.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
mac
Hall of Famer


Reged: Dec 01 2006
Posts: 5466
Loc: OHIO

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #895709 - Tue Jan 31 2012 06:28 AM

"All" benefits should be "means tested".

--------------------
....WOOF....GRRR....CHOMP....MAC


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Damanshot
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 31175
Loc: Aurora, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #895718 - Tue Jan 31 2012 07:47 AM

I define poor as:

1. You don't have a roof over your head

2. Lack of food and clothing

3. Low income (when I say low income, by todays cost of living, 10-12 bucks an hour or thereabouts just isn't going to cut it)

4. No (decent) Medical coverage

5. Bad Credit

When I see someone at the Grocery store using a card such as you describe, it doesn't even faze me. (I wonder how many times some have seen this, myself, only once and I didn't notice the car they drove away in)

Disclaimer: I do most all of my grocery shopping at Heinens where the prices are a bit on the high side. Not a place where you would see folks on government assistence which may account for me not seeing them.

I don't worry or care about what other people drive or how they bought it. (I have three cars, I can afford to dump them all and buy brand new ones, but I choose the more frugal path... it's my choice)

But the thing that gets me and the thing I worry about most of all, KIDS..

I look at the adults and I can say that they, for the most part, made choices (theres that word again, choices) that brought them to this point. (not all, but some)

But kids are just there for the ride at this point. I feel for the kids.

Not everyone is where they are because they want to be. Not everyone is there because they are bad people or worthless slugs..

There are good people struggling to make ends meet. Maybe they are responsible for the situation they find themselves in, maybe not.

We are americans.. all of us, and I myself don't mind giving a helping hand UP...

--------------------
If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving isn't for you



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Damanshot]
      #895720 - Tue Jan 31 2012 07:54 AM

If you are in Aurora, it's not the prices at the grocery store keeping the poor people away ...... it's the fact that there are very few poor people in Aurora. I would suspect that there are not too many people on food stamps living on the golf course. (I remember Aurora well, I opened the Domino's Pizza location there a billion or so years ago)

Believe me, there are many people on food stamps who don't give a damn about the prices they pay. His a convenience store the first part of the month and see hos people pay for orders with 6 subs .... chips ...... pop ...... doughnuts ..... etc. I see $50-$60 orders of crap when the little cards recharge damn near every time I stop into the corner store down the road from my mom's house around the first of any given month.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
archbolddawg
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 15507


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: jfanent]
      #895734 - Tue Jan 31 2012 09:02 AM

Quote:



Lol. Boy am I old. My parents used to take us to Picway Shoe Mart for the "Man Alive, 2 for 5 sale. We were jealous of the kids that got the Converse for 10.99.




I don't know if I'm young or old or in between - but I buy my tennis shoes at a store called Pamida (think miniature wal-mart)............$30 to $40 a pair - except when it's "Buy 1 pair, get the second pair at half price" 2 pairs for at most $60.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
archbolddawg
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 15507


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #895742 - Tue Jan 31 2012 09:12 AM

Quote:

I agree.

I think benefits should be reduced in a step down method.

After 9 months you go from one amount to a lower amount. Another 6 months the total drops further. You do this until the total benefits is lower than one would make working a minimum wage job.

You step them down so they are forced to make some cuts and see the reality of the situation.

This is about providing help and support. Not providing a livelihood.




Agreed.

Short story emphasizing your point: A friend - not a close friend - but a friend and I were talking about is daughter. She is totally on the "system". She has 3 kids - had her second one just after h.s. graduation, then had the 3rd kid a year and a half later.

3 kids, no job. Now, I don't remember the names of the programs she was on - but he told me how much money she gets a month for not working...........and he said "if she goes and gets a job, she loses most of that money, then she has to pay a baby sitter.......she'd lose money by working. She'd have less money working than being on the public dole. So why should she work?"

I tried to explain that if she worked, it might be tougher now, but in the future she'd come out better off.....that didn't go over real well.

So, anyway - say you're getting $15,000 a year in all the support programs. Instead of losing it all (or most) if you work, why not step it down. You work and make 15 grand - you'll only lose, say, $7000 in support for the first year. And gradually decrease the amount over time. (just an example - I don't know what the right amount would be, etc)

Show them that working has its benefits, and you won't instantly lose everything.......give the people a reason to find work.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Damanshot
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 31175
Loc: Aurora, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #895748 - Tue Jan 31 2012 09:21 AM

I think you have the wrong impression of Aurora Ytown.

Yes, there is a high percapita income here. We have homes ranging in teh 2.5 million + range all the way down to 35,000 for some really junk type hole in the wall places.

We have apartments ranging in rental prices from 1700 per month down to 350 a month.

Not 100% sure of the averages. But those are the ranges.

So we do have our share of lower income folks.

For a town our size, we have a pretty high level of foreclosures also. Some you would just not believe.. homes that sold for 1 mill or more are and have been being foreclosed on in recent years.

In other words, we are a fairly typical bedroom community.

Just up the street from me are these very old, ranch style homes that to be honest, I wouldn't hit a dog in the butt with. run down shacks.

And those aren't the worst of it. we have a section of town known as Geauga Lake. Geauga Lake is perhaps the oldest area in aurora (I think) and it started life as mostly summer fishing cabins. Most of which have been remolded many times.. Plumbing added, heat, air etc etc.

There are some very nice places back there, but most are run down.

So, while the appearence might be that Aurora is all up there, it's really just your average little Ohio town with millionaires and the financially challenged.

--------------------
If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving isn't for you



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #895752 - Tue Jan 31 2012 09:30 AM

Quote:

This is my issue too. It seems like our country's poor has their priorities all screwed up.




So do the rich, but that's a post for a different thread..

The poor have figured out the system.. in fact they have been figuring it out for years.. They know that the government, the people, and the non-profits are not going to let people starve to death.. if you want help, all you have to do is ask and there is either a government program or some people in this country that will help you.. So if you actually make a few hundred bucks are you going to spend it on food? No, you're not. You are going to buy a new DVD player or some other toy... why? Because the people won't buy you a DVD player because you are poor, but they WILL buy you food... they don't have to know that you spent what little money you had on an XBox or a cell phone.. in fact there is really no way for them to know what you spent it on.

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Damanshot]
      #895757 - Tue Jan 31 2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

1. You don't have a roof over your head

2. Lack of food and clothing

3. Low income (when I say low income, by todays cost of living, 10-12 bucks an hour or thereabouts just isn't going to cut it)

4. No (decent) Medical coverage

5. Bad Credit




as far as #3, $11 / hour for 40 hours a week 50 weeks out of the year is $22k per year. A lot of peopel in hourly jobs struggle to even get those 40 hours per week scheduled. That's below the poverty line for a family of four as set out above. So, have both parents work, right? The additional child care and transportation costs associated with having both adults working would obliterate the second income pretty quickly. Forget decent health care.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Damanshot]
      #895759 - Tue Jan 31 2012 09:37 AM

I remember Geauga Lake quite well. I attended many a party up in there waaayyy back in the day. lol

I remember that Heinen's quite well though. It was too pricey for me. I had to go shop in Streetsboro .... where I could afford groceries. I was just borderline middle class ..... not a rich hoity-toity type.

Man ..... that's been probably 25years ago.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895768 - Tue Jan 31 2012 09:51 AM

Quote:

as far as #3, $11 / hour for 40 hours a week 50 weeks out of the year is $22k per year. A lot of peopel in hourly jobs struggle to even get those 40 hours per week scheduled. That's below the poverty line for a family of four as set out above. So, have both parents work, right? The additional child care and transportation costs associated with having both adults working would obliterate the second income pretty quickly.



If you are making $11/hour and have never made much more than $11/hour.. then don't have 2 kids. I always cringe at those reports.. "I have no real skills and I only make $18K a year and that's just not enough to support my 5 kids." Well no sh*t.

If you are young and your earning power is limited then delay having kids.. you can get married and your wife can work because you have no kids.. A single person making $22K a year should be able to live ok and still have some money for junior college or a trade school.. a married couple making in the mid to high $30s should have no problem allowing at least one of them to get the skills required to improve their income.

I do have sympathy for a person that was used to making $40K and was living accordingly and is now making $22K because of the economy.. but I have very little sympathy for somebody who made $20K, has never made MORE than $20K and decided the best thing to do was have kids...

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
archbolddawg
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 15507


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895772 - Tue Jan 31 2012 09:56 AM

Quote:



as far as #3, $11 / hour for 40 hours a week 50 weeks out of the year is $22k per year. A lot of peopel in hourly jobs struggle to even get those 40 hours per week scheduled. That's below the poverty line for a family of four as set out above. So, have both parents work, right? The additional child care and transportation costs associated with having both adults working would obliterate the second income pretty quickly. Forget decent health care.




You're assuming that family of 4 has 2 kids that need full time child care. Believe it or not, most kids go to school at age 5-18. That limits the child care aspect of it. I do understand, if both kids are at home....yeah, there's child care involved.......but most of the time, the kids are old enough to be in school from 8 a.m. to 3 p.m.

There would be child care in the summer months, yes - until the kids, or at least one of them, is 13, 14, 15....depending.

Also, cheap used cars that are good quality are still available. You don't have to spend $10,000 on a used car.

My wife and I both work. Daughter is 11. We haven't spent money on child care since she started kindergarten.

Bottom line - it can be done (both parents working) That's $44,000 a year. In NYC? Not enough. In many places? That's an okay living. Not great, granted, but better than living off the public, not?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: archbolddawg]
      #895776 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:11 AM

$44,000 is a pretty good living in Youngstown.

Houses cost between $45,000 and $150,000 for the most part. Buy a $100,000 home and you're around $600-$700/month. (with taxes and insurance) If a couple is making $40,000, and has a couple of kids, then according to the IRS withholding calculator, they pay no federal tax. Yippee.

So they pay state tax, and maybe a local tax ..... so possibly 4-5% total. So they clear $3000/month ... with only $700 max going to a house. (if they buy a higher end, very nice home in the better areas)

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #895777 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:14 AM

DC, got a good laugh from that one. I don't even want to start with "should we have income limits to permit having children?" questions.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895778 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:16 AM

Quote:

DC, got a good laugh from that one. I don't even want to start with "should we have income limits to permit having children?" questions.



I'm not advocating the government set rules, I'm advocating people use some freakin' common sense. glad you find that concept amusing.

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: mac]
      #895779 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:20 AM

Quote:

"All" benefits should be "means tested".





It depends where you are going with this Mac....somehow i get the feeling you are fishing so you can say people shouldn't be able to collect their SS benefit if they make or have saved such and such amount.

I disagree with that.

If you are simply talking about collecting food stamps, etc, for the most part they already are. It's based on low income.

We have to have a balance, and now we do. It shouldn't be near impossible for people to apply for and receive benefits quickly.

Somewhere the discoinnect is that people are able to stay on assistance for decades. I disagree with that. As was illustrated by some other systems, at some point a person who can't get off public assistance should become a Ward of the State.

We can't just toss people to the curb and let them rot on the streets, but we can make them more responsible to the public who is supporting them and require them to perform public service duty on a weekly basis.

Every city has parks and recreational facilities that need better upkeep that only man hours can fix. Add in animal control, streets and sewer, etc....there are lots of things these wards could perform that would save taxpayer money.

Many thing either go undone, or someone has to be hired to get them done.

Get these folks to earn a sliver of their keep.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: archbolddawg]
      #895781 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:22 AM

Quote:

My wife and I both work. Daughter is 11. We haven't spent money on child care since she started kindergarten.




Arch, that's awesome. Do you think it's the area you live in that allows (from a practical standpoint, I don't mean regulation) you to do that? Or do you have some kind of family support system that has helped out?



DC, I wasn't even talking about government regulation. Your statement assumes that people without children will eventually earn enough money to support children. And it seems like, if they don't, then they can't have children. Is that what you mean?

Edited by CleveSteve (Tue Jan 31 2012 10:22 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895782 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:28 AM

Quote:

Your statement assumes that people without children will eventually earn enough money to support children. And it seems like, if they don't, then they can't have children. Is that what you mean?



Allow me to clarify.. the time to obtain a job skill or training or education is BEFORE you have children.. so use your late teens and early 20s to use your modest income to improve your earning power through junior college, trade school, whatever.. THEN have children.

As far as whether they ever have children.. I hope they do, children are a blessing that everybody should enjoy if they so desire.. but don't have children you can't house and feed and clothe.. it's pretty much that simple.

Now I will turn it around.. a couple in their late 20s makes $35K a year, if they have a child and she quits work, he will make $22K a year.. should this couple say, "Well, we can't support a family of 3 on $22K a year, but we deserve to have children, so the state can just pick up the rest."... is that what YOU are saying? (And trust me, I realize that most people don't make this decision to have kids in such a rational way.. but that is the topic for a different debate)

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895784 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:30 AM

That's not what he means.

What he means if you need it spelled out is people should think about what they are doing. If they are having a hard to supporting themself, how is it prudent to bring another mouth in to the fold?

I do think there needs to be incentives to have fewer children if you can't afford them.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
archbolddawg
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 15507


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895785 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:33 AM

Family support - as in I work - and my wife works. My wife works nights. In a factory. I work days (well, most days). As much as I hate having my wife gone 5 nights a week, we make it work. I get daughter up in the morning, mom comes home. Mom goes to bed. I take daughter to school, I go to work. Daughter rides bus home. Mom is up. Here recently, mom leaves at 8 pm for work. I put daughter to bed.

It would work even if wife worked days. She'd be home by 3, daughter gets off bus at 3:35.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #895787 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:42 AM

Quote:

Allow me to clarify.. the time to obtain a job skill or training or education is BEFORE you have children.. so use your late teens and early 20s to use your modest income to improve your earning power through junior college, trade school, whatever.. THEN have children.




That is the ideal route. I agree. It doesn't always happen that way. The sad truth is, there are a lot of people (and I've encountered a lot more since I moved down here than I ever knew in Ohio) who want to have kids ASAP as long as they're out of high school.

Quote:

but don't have children you can't house and feed and clothe.. it's pretty much that simple.




Mamase Mamasa Mamakusa

Quote:

Now I will turn it around.. a couple in their late 20s makes $35K a year, if they have a child and she quits work, he will make $22K a year.. should this couple say, "Well, we can't support a family of 3 on $22K a year, but we deserve to have children, so the state can just pick up the rest."... is that what YOU are saying? (And trust me, I realize that most people don't make this decision to have kids in such a rational way.. but that is the topic for a different debate)




It is a difficult question, isn't it?

I can't say yes, I can't say no.

On the one hand, we both seem to agree that if people really want to have children, they should be able to have them. We also agree that they should do everything they can to support all of their needs. But what happens if they just can't on their own? I never want to tell anyone who will care for their child and treat them well that they should not get to reproduce in their life. There seems something biologically oppressive in that situation.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895788 - Tue Jan 31 2012 10:58 AM

Everybody should be able to have children. You shouldn't have to meet some financial standard.

The question is how many.

I think all can agree that if a couple is having a hard time making ends meet with 2 children, it isn't all that smart to start having more.

It seems to me the irresponsible actions of the parent(s) is further deteriorating the standard of living of their existing children.

But now we are getting in to areas we can't do anything about. The reality is these people will continue to breed and other people are going to get stuck with the bill.

Serious question: At what point is this country over populated??

I think we are past the point by about 75-100 million people.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: archbolddawg]
      #895789 - Tue Jan 31 2012 11:03 AM

That sounds tough, arch. I'm sure it gives the two of you a great feeling of satisfaction to be able to provide for your family in that way.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Damanshot
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 31175
Loc: Aurora, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895800 - Tue Jan 31 2012 11:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

1. You don't have a roof over your head

2. Lack of food and clothing

3. Low income (when I say low income, by todays cost of living, 10-12 bucks an hour or thereabouts just isn't going to cut it)

4. No (decent) Medical coverage

5. Bad Credit




as far as #3, $11 / hour for 40 hours a week 50 weeks out of the year is $22k per year. A lot of peopel in hourly jobs struggle to even get those 40 hours per week scheduled. That's below the poverty line for a family of four as set out above. So, have both parents work, right? The additional child care and transportation costs associated with having both adults working would obliterate the second income pretty quickly. Forget decent health care.




Well, yeah, Poverty is different for a family of 4 vs a single 20something.

11.00 per hoiur for a 21 year old guy or gal still living at home or as a roommate in an apartment or house.. you can probably get by..

Family of 4... not really likely... It would be hard to get by on 20 bucks an hours. and that's over 40k a year. Not a lot of extras can be had.

I have a friend, lives in the same complex as me. He has a wife and 5 kids, all still at home, all still attending Aurora Public Schools.

he's the only one working. He works as a geologist for the state of ohio. Just started about 3 months ago. Prior to that, Military (air force) and School.

I don't know how they did it, but they survived on less than 40k.. now he makes about 60 and they feel fat...LOL it's all about perspective I guess...LOL

--------------------
If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving isn't for you



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Damanshot
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 31175
Loc: Aurora, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #895803 - Tue Jan 31 2012 11:50 AM

Quote:

Everybody should be able to have children. You shouldn't have to meet some financial standard.




Yes you should have to meet a financial standard.. But not a government imposed standard.. it's a personal standard.

Accidents happen, I know. But generally, if you can't afford to feed another mouth, Cover your wacker, BEFORE you attack her..

--------------------
If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving isn't for you



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
no_logo_required
Legend


Reged: Oct 11 2006
Posts: 17918


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Damanshot]
      #895804 - Tue Jan 31 2012 11:52 AM

Quote:

Cover your wacker, BEFORE you attack her




oh man. I can see the health ad's now

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
IRE 45
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 13 2006
Posts: 3060


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895805 - Tue Jan 31 2012 11:58 AM

Actually it sounds pretty normal to me . My wife and I had that arrangement for years and while not optimal it did work well .

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
I_Rogue
Hall of Famer


Reged: Feb 21 2007
Posts: 3285
Loc: NE, OH-IO

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: IRE 45]
      #895822 - Tue Jan 31 2012 01:09 PM

j/c

Something that really burns my butt. I know a lady (28) who is collecting unemployment while working two jobs totally full time as a bartender while getting paid under the table. She even brags about it with the rational of she has paid taxes (not sure how when she gets paid under the table) and is now getting a return on her money. She is planning on milking it. THAT's the @#$% that has to stop in this country.

--------------------
Give a man a fish and he'll vote for you. Teach a man to fish and he'll move to Texas.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
PDR
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 10783


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #895830 - Tue Jan 31 2012 01:29 PM

Quote:


Serious question: At what point is this country over populated??

I think we are past the point by about 75-100 million people.




I would say right now that about 10-15% of our population isn't really necessary.

And that number will only continue to grow as outsourcing and automation continue to increase.

--------------------
Single. Digit. Losses.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Damanshot
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 31175
Loc: Aurora, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PDR]
      #895832 - Tue Jan 31 2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Serious question: At what point is this country over populated??

I think we are past the point by about 75-100 million people.




I would say right now that about 10-15% of our population isn't really necessary.

And that number will only continue to grow as outsourcing and automation continue to increase.




I say take the 10 to 15% and hang them... lets clean up the mess

I'm confused.. Are we now outsourcing procreation? or are we automating it?



--------------------
If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving isn't for you



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PDR]
      #895833 - Tue Jan 31 2012 01:54 PM

that's so outrageous that it must be toungue-in-cheek.

Do you mean the 15% below the poverty line?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
PDR
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 10783


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895835 - Tue Jan 31 2012 01:58 PM

No, I mean 15% of the population that we really don't have meaningful work for.

Our population has grown as our viable job market has shrunk. That's caused problems for our country, and will continue to do so.

--------------------
Single. Digit. Losses.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Damanshot]
      #895877 - Tue Jan 31 2012 04:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

1. You don't have a roof over your head

2. Lack of food and clothing

3. Low income (when I say low income, by todays cost of living, 10-12 bucks an hour or thereabouts just isn't going to cut it)

4. No (decent) Medical coverage

5. Bad Credit




as far as #3, $11 / hour for 40 hours a week 50 weeks out of the year is $22k per year. A lot of peopel in hourly jobs struggle to even get those 40 hours per week scheduled. That's below the poverty line for a family of four as set out above. So, have both parents work, right? The additional child care and transportation costs associated with having both adults working would obliterate the second income pretty quickly. Forget decent health care.




Well, yeah, Poverty is different for a family of 4 vs a single 20something.

11.00 per hoiur for a 21 year old guy or gal still living at home or as a roommate in an apartment or house.. you can probably get by..

Family of 4... not really likely... It would be hard to get by on 20 bucks an hours. and that's over 40k a year. Not a lot of extras can be had.

I have a friend, lives in the same complex as me. He has a wife and 5 kids, all still at home, all still attending Aurora Public Schools.

he's the only one working. He works as a geologist for the state of ohio. Just started about 3 months ago. Prior to that, Military (air force) and School.

I don't know how they did it, but they survived on less than 40k.. now he makes about 60 and they feel fat...LOL it's all about perspective I guess...LOL




Yeah, it is all about perspective. Median household income in the US from 2006 - 2010 was just over $50,000. That's not salary or wages ..... that's total household income.

$40,000 isn't starving. They probably weren't buying new cars every year, or buying the kids every single new toy in sight ..... but I can see how they could get along quite decently on that level of income.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PDR]
      #895902 - Tue Jan 31 2012 06:16 PM

Quote:

No, I mean 15% of the population that we really don't have meaningful work for.

Our population has grown as our viable job market has shrunk. That's caused problems for our country, and will continue to do so.





It goes beyond that. Our infrastructure is bursting at the seams from overuse.

Manufacturing in this country is done. Many of the service jobs created are more or less duplicate jobs. An example is grocery stores. When I was a kid the stores closed at 6PM, were open to 2PM on Saturdays, and closed on Sundays. Everybody bought their food, they just did it in half the time. So now stores stay open late or all night, but still sell the same amount of food.....in proportion to the population. The difference is the jobs pay less or those managers etc are now working 50-60 hours for their paycheck where in the past they worked 40 or so hours.


Lose about 75 million of the people in this country and many of our problems would be solved.

Just as empire after empire has fallen, we are living through the beginning of the fall of the American empire. I fully expect(I won't see it, some of you will) this country as we know it to be 2-3 different countries inside 75 years for sure, possibly 50 years. We are too divided and the Ponzi schemes we have hung our hats on aren't sustainable given the current conditions, which will be here for good.

This is the new normal. We have to adjust.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FloridaFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 12871


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #895982 - Wed Feb 01 2012 08:00 AM

Quote:


Does returning tax rates to where they were a dozen years ago really constitute "punishing" the rich? That's what is at the crux of this article as far as I can tell. Saying "our poor are too wealthy" just doesn't sit right with me.

*edit* it would be nice if the article published actual data about how Obama is rewarding the poor and punishing the rich, instead of just saying "America's poor has too much to be poor."




My issue is that usually when talking about poverty the conversation includes "look at what the rich have" (not saying that's what you said here), and I personally don't see what the rich have has anything to do with the poor.

As arch said, the critereia should be the simple necessities, food, clothing & shelter. working DVDs & VCRs can be gotten from the trash these days, as can TVs. Tivo? I bet they meant DVRs, which I would consider a non-standard luxury item since they usually require a service or subscription to work, unless you buy one independently which aren't cheap. Cable I can see, because I know that some government housing includes basic cable in the development, it keeps people from hanging odd antennas outside thier windows and such.

As we can see, all these extras are subjective to what they really are, and how they were obtained. Now if they have a 50" LED flat panel TV, DVR, smart phone, late model car, then yeah, they aren't living in poverty.

--------------------
Growing Old Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
I_Rogue
Hall of Famer


Reged: Feb 21 2007
Posts: 3285
Loc: NE, OH-IO

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FloridaFan]
      #896030 - Wed Feb 01 2012 11:12 AM

Quote:


As we can see, all these extras are subjective to what they really are, and how they were obtained. Now if they have a 50" LED flat panel TV, DVR, smart phone, late model car, then yeah, they aren't living in poverty.




You are assuming they bought these things. I know some folks who reluctantly "donated" these types of items.

--------------------
Give a man a fish and he'll vote for you. Teach a man to fish and he'll move to Texas.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FloridaFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 12871


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: I_Rogue]
      #896041 - Wed Feb 01 2012 11:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:


As we can see, all these extras are subjective to what they really are, and how they were obtained. Now if they have a 50" LED flat panel TV, DVR, smart phone, late model car, then yeah, they aren't living in poverty.




You are assuming they bought these things. I know some folks who reluctantly "donated" these types of items.




What do you mean by reluctantly?

--------------------
Growing Old Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FloridaFan]
      #896042 - Wed Feb 01 2012 11:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


As we can see, all these extras are subjective to what they really are, and how they were obtained. Now if they have a 50" LED flat panel TV, DVR, smart phone, late model car, then yeah, they aren't living in poverty.




You are assuming they bought these things. I know some folks who reluctantly "donated" these types of items.




What do you mean by reluctantly?




Perhaps that they donated them from their homes ...... with the doors locked ..... while they weren't home .......?

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FloridaFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 12871


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #896046 - Wed Feb 01 2012 11:40 AM

That's what I assume he means, at which time they are criminals and as criminals I could care less of their economic level.

--------------------
Growing Old Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
THROW LONG
Hall of Famer


Reged: Dec 05 2006
Posts: 3632


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: I_Rogue]
      #896069 - Wed Feb 01 2012 12:48 PM

This is disturbing.
This is even more disturbing.
Just who are the rich in this counrty?
Just what is the poverty line?
Are the homeless poor? What is the cost of living?

This is just so disturbing.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
brownsfan1508
All Pro


Reged: Sep 29 2006
Posts: 570
Loc: Kent/Steubenville, OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #896202 - Wed Feb 01 2012 08:41 PM

J/C

I had a discussion about this with someone recently. Would it make sense to go away from the cards? I mean, it really is interesting that there are people out shopping at 11pm before their card gets uploaded at midnight. I have to wait for the banks to open to get my pay. Make em stand in line like the old days.

I'm not railing against assistance, I just think it gets abused for the convenience factor. I rented a room somewhere for a while, that the dude said I couldn't get mail or change my address because I made too much for him to get his 180 a month on his card. Of course, I was welcome to all the food I wanted, and I never ate a single bite of it. I made more than enough to feed myself, and so did him and his girlfriend. I've fed myself on 15-20 bucks a week when I was going to school and only working part time. I had everything I needed and never considered myself to be poor.

My sister had/s alot more than I do, even though I make more money and have health care at work. In part because her husband makes right around poverty line, and they get all kinds of stuff from the government, freeing up his cashflow for frivolous purchases (IE a 2000 dollar TV). They actually very recently told me to have kids so my income tax return would go up. I just told him he didn't EARN anything to get that credit, and I never claimed it when I could...shut him up real quick

This type of thinking really does need to stop. How, is not something I've came up with.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FloridaFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 12871


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: brownsfan1508]
      #896272 - Thu Feb 02 2012 08:07 AM

Quote:

J/C

I had a discussion about this with someone recently. Would it make sense to go away from the cards? I mean, it really is interesting that there are people out shopping at 11pm before their card gets uploaded at midnight. I have to wait for the banks to open to get my pay. Make em stand in line like the old days.





Many people send checks to pay their bills days before they get paid. So what's wrong with starting your shopping as long as you don't checkout before the cash is there?

--------------------
Growing Old Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: brownsfan1508]
      #896277 - Thu Feb 02 2012 08:34 AM

Quote:

My sister had/s alot more than I do, even though I make more money and have health care at work. In part because her husband makes right around poverty line, and they get all kinds of stuff from the government, freeing up his cashflow for frivolous purchases (IE a 2000 dollar TV). They actually very recently told me to have kids so my income tax return would go up. I just told him he didn't EARN anything to get that credit, and I never claimed it when I could...shut him up real quick

This type of thinking really does need to stop. How, is not something I've came up with.



The only way to change the thinking is to cut people off but anybody who would propose that can't win an election because they are portrayed as cold hearted and mean.

Simple human nature dictates that the longer somebody else provides you with something for free, the less incentive you have to actually go out and work harder to earn it for yourself. You cannot simply say that we are going to provide you with this but HOPE that you will someday work yourself to a point where you don't need it.. some probably will but many will not.

If your sister and bro-in-law make $22K a year (and I'm making up numbers) and they get $12K in government assistance that has no end date, what is their incentive to work to get a $.50/hour raise or $1/hour raise or a promotion that might pay them $5K a year more? All they are going to do is work themselves out of the government benefit and they will end up worse off than they were before.. In my example above, they would need a $6/hour raise just to break even... where is the incentive to push yourself that hard?

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: crazyotto55]
      #896290 - Thu Feb 02 2012 09:01 AM

Quote:

Seriously, now we're gonna rip the poor for not being poor enough?

You guys need a hobby.......




I agree, with that said there will always be some who will take advantage of the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there are still many in this country who are homeless.

Cell phones can be obtained pretty easily and there are many second hand stores where someone can buy a cheap TV or even a computer ... This does not mean that these folks are not still living in poverty.

We are not a third world country, so why should our poor then be judged by the same standards?

Capitalism can still work, but we now have a government of the 1%, by the 1% and for the 1%.

They are the very reason why we are in the mess we are in right now and why we have spent so much on bail outs.

And not enough has changed in the way they do business, because they have the money and the leverage to continue to do risky business. The same risky business that got us where we are today.

Thinking about weather or not our poor in this country are poor enough is another way to take our eyes off of the ball and the greed that has raped this country for years.
We are no better off, then we where before the economy crashed.
Banks continue to get bigger, CEO's continue to get ridicules bonuses, even if their respective businesses are failing and laying off workers.

Keep your eye's on the ball

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FL_Dawg]
      #896477 - Thu Feb 02 2012 06:22 PM

Quote:

We are not a third world country, so why should our poor then be judged by the same standards?



If you think America's poor are even remotely close to the poor of most of the rest of the world, especially a 3rd world country, then I would suggest you take a few trips... start with Haiti.

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
crazyotto55
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 3689
Loc: Fremont, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #896481 - Thu Feb 02 2012 06:40 PM

Quote:

If you think America's poor are even remotely close to the poor of most of the rest of the world, especially a 3rd world country, then I would suggest you take a few trips... start with Haiti.




I believe that was his point.

--------------------
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: crazyotto55]
      #896485 - Thu Feb 02 2012 06:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If you think America's poor are even remotely close to the poor of most of the rest of the world, especially a 3rd world country, then I would suggest you take a few trips... start with Haiti.




I believe that was his point.



I didn't read it that way.. but now that I read it again, you could be correct and I might be.. not as right.

But to the bigger point.. then what should we compare them to? Because the debate right now seems to compare the poor to the middle and upper middle class.. who have more education, training, skills, and a better work ethic... of course there are exceptions but figuring out the reason some people are poor and some people aren't... it ain't rocket science.

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #896495 - Thu Feb 02 2012 07:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

We are not a third world country, so why should our poor then be judged by the same standards?



If you think America's poor are even remotely close to the poor of most of the rest of the world, especially a 3rd world country, then I would suggest you take a few trips... start with Haiti.




Been there ... No what I'm saying is that we live in the richest country in the world and that our poor should not be judged to be not poor, because they have more then some one living in that 3rd world country. That's idiotic and illogical. Everyone likes to use welfare recipients as an example, but there are plenty of hard working Americans who are in poverty due to our economy and just as many young folks with large College loans who can't find a job.

I believe that the richest 1% brought this on our country and the rest of the world due to their greed and shady deals that they are still able to do as we speak.

After the great depression steps where taken in a bill (that I can't think of at the moment) to ensure that there would be checks and balance to ensure that would never occur again.
That bill was killed during the Clinton (thinking it was out dated) years and the rest is history.

Getting that balance back is going to take a monumental effort, because the other side has the money and control of power to keep their greedy risky business as usual status quo.

--------------------


Edited by FL_Dawg (Thu Feb 02 2012 07:49 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FL_Dawg]
      #896503 - Thu Feb 02 2012 08:39 PM

I don't know man. Maybe you are listening to a little too much all night radio.


Then again, maybe you are right.



Possibly the thread needs to be "Just who are the rich in this country?"


Something tells me there would be a much greater differing of opinions on that then who are poor.

We all can pretty much tell who is poor. The real problem is that through envious eyes, we can't say who are rich. It almost seems that anybody making more than $20 a hour is rich.

I'd say if you make more than $2 million a year, you are rich. Under that, you are well off at best, to poor.


This is America, the land of opportunity, remember?? The best and only jobs aren't rolling cigars.

Ok....you start making 2.5 a year, pay a little more, under that, hands off. Oh...that is individual, not joint income. You can't penalize a family unit like that.


Unless of course the desire is to become a 3rd world nation.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #896511 - Thu Feb 02 2012 09:05 PM

Quote:

I don't know man. Maybe you are listening to a little too much all night radio.


Then again, maybe you are right.



Possibly the thread needs to be "Just who are the rich in this country?"


Something tells me there would be a much greater differing of opinions on that then who are poor.

We all can pretty much tell who is poor. The real problem is that through envious eyes, we can't say who are rich. It almost seems that anybody making more than $20 a hour is rich.

I'd say if you make more than $2 million a year, you are rich. Under that, you are well off at best, to poor.


This is America, the land of opportunity, remember?? The best and only jobs aren't rolling cigars.

Ok....you start making 2.5 a year, pay a little more, under that, hands off. Oh...that is individual, not joint income. You can't penalize a family unit like that.


Unless of course the desire is to become a 3rd world nation.




Actually I like to watch Charlie Rose late night and I think that it can be very informative to the average Joe.

I know what the face of poverty looks like and that's only the half of it.

I still believe in Democracy and a capitalist driven economy, but just not the way we are using it now. These problems are not going to simply fix themselves and history will repeat itself and maybe the next time will be more fatal then this current disaster is.

As an older man it's not myself that I have concerns for. My kids and the future generations is my motivation for my concerns with the path we are on.

There are people who have much more knowledge then I do on this subject and have the same fears as do I.

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FL_Dawg]
      #896514 - Thu Feb 02 2012 09:14 PM

We all have fears, and we are the same era, so the experiences are similar, at least in the broad sense.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #896518 - Thu Feb 02 2012 09:36 PM

Quote:

We all have fears, and we are the same era, so the experiences are similar, at least in the broad sense.




I agree.

I have no envy for folks who have more then I do and I have help make a couple of people millionaires, but ethics is still a value that holds high value with me.

What a couple of hundred of key people did was to put their own interest above the greater good and prosperity for all.

Prosperity for the masses is how I would evaluate a system that can thrive and another that is doomed to falter if it can not achieve a level of prosperity for all.


Corruption brought down every great government that came before ours. I know you know this.

This can't happen with a few hundred people risking the wealth of all, but it did and the truth is that not enough has been done to ensure we won't keep going threw this pattern.

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FL_Dawg]
      #896538 - Thu Feb 02 2012 11:53 PM

Here's the problem with trying to balance things on the backs of the "1%".

It won't work.

There's not enough income to generate enough taxes to balance the budget even if we go to the top 5%.

That's right around $150,000 in taxable income, by the way. It doesn't take a whole lot to move down that scale. I'd also be worried that we might get to the point where taxing the top 25% sounds pretty reasonable. That's about $70,000. Where do we draw the line?

Frankly, I don't think that anyone should have to pay more than 25% of their income to the government. Period ... counting every single tax we pay. That would allow people more money to spend on stuff .... and selling stuff is what keeps an economy going. Unfortunately, the government has gone to income redistribution trying to dump money into the hands of those who will blow it immediately to give the economy a fake bump each January.

No one should pay more than 25% of their income ..... but everyone should pay something. We have so many people paying nothing, and even taking money out of the system that it's appalling.

We'll never be able to bring things back into balance by raising taxes. We simply spend too much money. Until the government cuts spending,and cuts taxes back to a reasonable level, we'll have a heavy duty mess. The problem now is that government spends so, so much money that cutting that cord will hurt the economy in the short term ..... in a fairly heavy duty way. It's absolutely necessary at this point though, because the longer it goes, the worst it will be.

Of course, I don't care anymore, because I don't have kids, so leaving other peoples' kids a freakin' disaster doesn't bother me if it doesn't bother them.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
RocketOptimist
Dawg Talker


Reged: Jun 25 2010
Posts: 2081
Loc: Toledo, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #896590 - Fri Feb 03 2012 08:15 AM

How did it work a few decades ago when the upper income earners were taxed at a considerably higher level? Why can't we go back to that model?

This isn't a question to you Ytown but more so a general question to everyone. How come class warfare arguments start when anyone suggests bringing the tax rates to how they were a few decades ago?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
archbolddawg
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 15507


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: RocketOptimist]
      #896613 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:44 AM

What were the tax rates a few decades ago, and what are they now? (honest question).

Also, what was gov't. spending back then?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: archbolddawg]
      #896621 - Fri Feb 03 2012 10:10 AM

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/151.html

I've tried to highlight the "eras" here. These numbers are all adjusted for inflation, using single tax filer as the example. It gets a little tricky between 1965 and 1981, as the same percentages are there, but you have to interpolate the dollar amounts pretty linearly between those two years.

You can see that the gov't has been much more "generous" over the past 25 years than it had been previously.

Code:

2003-2011
Single
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
10.0% $0 $8,500
15.0% $8,500 $34,500
25.0% $34,500 $83,600
28.0% $83,600 $174,400
33.0% $174,400 $379,150
35.0% $379,150 -


1993-2002
Single
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
10.0% $0 $7,483
15.0% $7,483 $34,861
27.0% $34,861 $84,439
30.0% $84,439 $176,174
35.0% $176,174 $382,967
38.6% $382,967 -


1991 , 1992
Single
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
15.0% $0 $34,305
28.0% $34,305 $83,003
31.0% $83,003 -

1988-1990
Single
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
15.0% $0 $33,391
28.0% $33,391 -


1987
Single
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
0.11 0 3555.310944
0.15 3555.310944 33182.90214
0.28 33182.90214 53329.66415
0.35 53329.66415 106659.3283
0.385 106659.3283 -


1982-1986
Single
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
0.0% $0 $5,077
11.0% $5,077 $7,513
12.0% $7,513 $9,724
14.0% $9,724 $14,351
15.0% $14,351 $18,773
16.0% $18,773 $23,851
18.0% $23,851 $28,498
20.0% $28,498 $33,145
23.0% $33,145 $40,208
26.0% $40,208 $51,918
30.0% $51,918 $63,629
34.0% $63,629 $75,339
38.0% $75,339 $91,676
42.0% $91,676 $122,160
48.0% $122,160 $180,712
50.0% $180,712 -


1981
Single
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
0.0% $0 $5,677
14.0% $5,677 $8,393
16.0% $8,393 $10,861
18.0% $10,861 $16,045
19.0% $16,045 $20,982
21.0% $20,982 $26,659
24.0% $26,659 $31,843
26.0% $31,843 $37,026
30.0% $37,026 $44,925
34.0% $44,925 $58,008
39.0% $58,008 $71,091
44.0% $71,091 $84,173
49.0% $84,173 $102,440
55.0% $102,440 $136,504
63.0% $136,504 $201,917
68.0% $201,917 $267,330
70.0% $267,330 -


1965
Single
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
14.0% $0 $3,562
15.0% $3,562 $7,123
16.0% $7,123 $10,685
17.0% $10,685 $14,246
19.0% $14,246 $28,493
22.0% $28,493 $42,739
25.0% $42,739 $56,985
28.0% $56,985 $71,232
32.0% $71,232 $85,478
36.0% $85,478 $99,724
39.0% $99,724 $113,971
42.0% $113,971 $128,217
45.0% $128,217 $142,463
48.0% $142,463 $156,710
50.0% $156,710 $185,202
53.0% $185,202 $227,941
55.0% $227,941 $270,680
58.0% $270,680 $313,419
60.0% $313,419 $356,158
62.0% $356,158 $427,390
64.0% $427,390 $498,621
66.0% $498,621 $569,853
68.0% $569,853 $641,085
69.0% $641,085 $712,316
70.0% $712,316 -


1944-1963
Marginal Tax Brackets
Tax Rate Over But Not Over
20.0% $0 $14,665
22.0% $14,665 $29,331
26.0% $29,331 $43,996
30.0% $43,996 $58,661
34.0% $58,661 $73,327
38.0% $73,327 $87,992
43.0% $87,992 $102,657
47.0% $102,657 $117,323
50.0% $117,323 $131,988
53.0% $131,988 $146,653
56.0% $146,653 $161,319
59.0% $161,319 $190,649
62.0% $190,649 $234,645
65.0% $234,645 $278,641
69.0% $278,641 $322,637
72.0% $322,637 $366,633
75.0% $366,633 $439,960
78.0% $439,960 $513,287
81.0% $513,287 $586,613
84.0% $586,613 $659,940
87.0% $659,940 $733,267
89.0% $733,267 $1,099,900
90.0% $1,099,900 $1,466,533
91.0% $1,466,533 -



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FL_Dawg]
      #896638 - Fri Feb 03 2012 03:59 PM

Quote:

No what I'm saying is that we live in the richest country in the world and that our poor should not be judged to be not poor, because they have more then some one living in that 3rd world country.



By what standard should they be judged? And what factors should be taken into consideration?

Quote:

Everyone likes to use welfare recipients as an example, but there are plenty of hard working Americans who are in poverty due to our economy and just as many young folks with large College loans who can't find a job.



Our economy is in the midst of a bad recession, brought on by the confluence of government and business.. we shall come out of this recession and at some point, it will happen again. I know there are people who are in bad situations but to make knee jerk reaction laws to try to prevent this from happening again will almost certainly succumb to the law of unintended consequences... Because basically you are asking the people who started this mess, to fix it.

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: RocketOptimist]
      #896642 - Fri Feb 03 2012 04:03 PM

Quote:

How did it work a few decades ago when the upper income earners were taxed at a considerably higher level? Why can't we go back to that model?

This isn't a question to you Ytown but more so a general question to everyone. How come class warfare arguments start when anyone suggests bringing the tax rates to how they were a few decades ago?



It is my opinion that the focus of this debate needs to change.. if you ask any of the 1% bashers (and I'm not saying you are one of them) and even if you ask a lot of other well-meaning people, the focus of the debate seems to be.. "How much can each group, based on income, afford to pay?" And I think that is incredibly wrong thinking.. the focus of the debate must absolutely start with.. "How much money does our government really NEED?" Then once we answer that question, we can begin figuring out who should pay what share..

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FloridaFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 12871


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #896648 - Fri Feb 03 2012 04:12 PM

Quote:

"How much money does our government really NEED?" Then once we answer that question, we can begin figuring out who should pay what share..




Spot on. with emphasis on the NEED part.

--------------------
Growing Old Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #896651 - Fri Feb 03 2012 04:16 PM

Quote:

the focus of the debate must absolutely start with.. "How much money does our government really NEED?" Then once we answer that question, we can begin figuring out who should pay what share..




Well, we can start with at least $13 trillion and go from there. How about first, we come up with where the first $5 trillion comes from?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #896654 - Fri Feb 03 2012 04:22 PM

Here's my entire problem with the whole "1%" thing.

When that's not enough ..... then we probably move on to the top 5% .... who aren't paying enough. When that's not enough, we probably start hearing about how the top 10% aren't doing their share .... after all, there are 90% worse off than them.

Maybe from there, since we still need more money, we move to the top 75% .... and so on.

When does it stop? Maybe when only the top 49% "pay their fair share"? For those who think it couldn't happen? It's still all just a matter of "Us against them" ..... only the numbers change.


Then what happens if that's still simply not enough either ..........?

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #896657 - Fri Feb 03 2012 04:25 PM

You don't have to get very far down to start running out of money...

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Code:
Financial Wealth
Top 1 percent Next 19 percent Bottom 80 percent
1983 42.9% 48.4% 8.7%
1989 46.9% 46.5% 6.6%
1992 45.6% 46.7% 7.7%
1995 47.2% 45.9% 7.0%
1998 47.3% 43.6% 9.1%
2001 39.7% 51.5% 8.7%
2004 42.2% 50.3% 7.5%
2007 42.7% 50.3% 7.0%





Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Browns Lifer
Hall of Famer


Reged: Jan 16 2007
Posts: 3647
Loc: Medina, OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FloridaFan]
      #896660 - Fri Feb 03 2012 04:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"How much money does our government really NEED?" Then once we answer that question, we can begin figuring out who should pay what share..




Spot on. with emphasis on the NEED part.




Honestly, I think the question is even more fundamental than that. First, I think we have to determine exactly what our government SHOULD be providing. Only then can we accurately define what it really needs. IMO, paring the federal government back to what it is constitutionally chartered to do would be a worthy goal and would, potentially, save us billions of dollars.

Some that cost would be picked up by the states, no doubt. It would be up to the citizens in each individual state, however, to decide what they would be willing to pay the state to provide. IMO, that's the way it ought to be.

--------------------
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

-- Mark Twain


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Browns Lifer]
      #896665 - Fri Feb 03 2012 04:55 PM

Unfortunately, that ship has sailed.

No one wants "unnecessary" federal programs ..... unless they are their programs.

Everyone thinks that tax credits should go away ... unless they are their tax credits.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #896667 - Fri Feb 03 2012 04:58 PM

Oh .... and there is also the matter of legislators saying "Oh, you want my vote on your legislation? I'd love to ........ but ............ what's in it for me ..... or what can you add to it to make it worthwhile for me to vote for it?"

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Browns Lifer]
      #896670 - Fri Feb 03 2012 05:14 PM

Quote:

IMO, paring the federal government back to what it is constitutionally chartered to do would be a worthy goal and would, potentially, save us billions of dollars.



If you mean "billions of dollars per month" then you are probably right.. and I agree whole heartedly with everything else you said.

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #896672 - Fri Feb 03 2012 05:18 PM

Maybe even billions of dollars per day ........

Or hour.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #896683 - Fri Feb 03 2012 05:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No what I'm saying is that we live in the richest country in the world and that our poor should not be judged to be not poor, because they have more then some one living in that 3rd world country.



By what standard should they be judged? And what factors should be taken into consideration?

Quote:

Everyone likes to use welfare recipients as an example, but there are plenty of hard working Americans who are in poverty due to our economy and just as many young folks with large College loans who can't find a job.



Our economy is in the midst of a bad recession, brought on by the confluence of government and business.. we shall come out of this recession and at some point, it will happen again. I know there are people who are in bad situations but to make knee jerk reaction laws to try to prevent this from happening again will almost certainly succumb to the law of unintended consequences... Because basically you are asking the people who started this mess, to fix it.




I'm quite sure that I am not the most intelligible to answer the first question, except to say that I think a countries wealth goes a long way in determining that question.

On your second point ... It hits on the point that I was trying to make about the factors that caused this rescission and are still not corrected. I agree.

The 1% I was referring to was not meant to become a tax code debate (that's a good debate), but rather it's the % of people who have put their greed above the greater good of this country and really you can add the world to that debate as well. They are still doing the same risky business that put us in this mess we are in today.
"Too big to fail" has gotten even bigger since 2007 and not enough has been done to ensure this doesn't happen again ... It's like you said. Those who should make the changes are one in the same.
Wall street and the banks are left to police themselves.

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FL_Dawg]
      #896714 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:10 PM

interesting debate but what does that have to do with the fact people are living free on my dime? I dont make alot of money Im probably close to poverty. I have what I need because I earn it. I have no need to tax the rich to help me. I have no need for the gov to pay my rent and let the landlord charge outragous rents to the Gov and thus raise all the rents in the area.
I dont need gov assistance to pay my gas bill and dont think the gov should make us pay for the utility comps muck ups (see Puco) while I get taxed yet again for assistance programs for the needy.

I dont need the gov telling me I have to have health insureance because it cost them to much to pay for others if you dont get it we will tax you the amount you should pay.

Why didnt the bill this year pass in Ohio that would have leveled the playing field of gov workers with normal workers? Because they get a steady ride steady raises and all the benefits while the normal joe worker gets stiffed paying the bill for the 25% guy.they out number probably all the workers in Ohio.
If the biggest employer (of all companys combined) in the state is the Gov you have problems that lay way deeper then the 1%

Its a nice pipe dream to believe that some rich guy is holding the country down and can fix the gov spending money to secure votes but its nothing but a pipe dream.

Remember your rights.
You have the right to own land
You have the right to bare arms to protect your life and propery
You have the right to choice of religion
and you have the right to freedom.

I dont see in there anywhere you have the right to be taxed no matter what percentile you fall in.

The only people who favor taxes as way to advance a country are politicians and poor people. The only reason this country has actaully survived is because we are a republic and not a dem. The politicians know this and thus create a class dependent people of greater numbers then the actual working class so that we can call it a democracy but we wont all just wont step up and put this on the ballot

Vote for only 1
No taxes
Taxes as they are with increases as seen fit by your gov.

Wonder which would win.

Did you know that the taxes on your phone bill were from the spanish american war? That was a tax on the ultra wealthy at the time and although it has been repealed and brought back a number of times the general idea was a tax on the super wealthy.

Once you bring a tax into place it really never goes away. The Gov continues to borrow against SS yet cuts their benefits then crys they dont have any money. Whos falt is that the 1%

I can see your point in that we had a time where companies were raiding pension funds and that was totally wrong however as you said that could have been corrected by who? The Gov. The big spending Gov that wont cant and refuses to live within its means and asks me the guy trying to stay above water but refusing to ask for handouts for more and more and more while trying to keep people in line by using the 1%

Heck the people telling us this (the politicians) are almost in the top 10%.

Finally ask why is a person willing to spend millions of dollars to get a job paying 100,000's? What doesnt add up there?

Ouch I fell off my soap box. Im done now.

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FloridaFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 12871


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FL_Dawg]
      #896720 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:22 PM

jc,,,


I recently read somewhere that if you make 350k or more, your in the top 1% of earners in this country.


I would consider that well to do, but not wealthy.

--------------------
Growing Old Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FloridaFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 12871


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FloridaFan]
      #896721 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:24 PM

found this

Quote:


It's usually considered impolite to ask how much money someone makes, but that question is at the forefront of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Protesters announce they are among the 99 percent of income earners who aren't getting the financial and tax benefits the top 1 percent receives.

So just how much do you have to earn to be part of the elite 1 percent?

That depends on whose figures you use.

Based on 2009 tax year filing data, the Internal Revenue Service says an adjusted gross income, or AGI, of $343,927 or more will put you in the top 1 percent of taxpayers.
z



LINK

--------------------
Growing Old Is Mandatory, Growing Up Is Optional.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #896723 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:27 PM

The bottom line is President Obama is a Socialist and the majority in this country are stupid or on government assistance.

As Neil Boortz says, we have become a nation full of mooches and leeches.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #896732 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:59 PM

Quote:

The bottom line is President Obama is a Socialist and the majority in this country are stupid or on government assistance.

As Neil Boortz says, we have become a nation full of mooches and leeches.




That is so sad and so true. I got a bunch of college loans and cant find a job working for the gov for 75K~200 a year its the gov fault AND they want the money back? Hey I will just live on them then, its the 1% fault. I get section 8 pay my rent and they want me to actually have to pay 35$ week for my 1200$ month house?
I get food stamps or WIC and they wnat me to actually get a job? I can now get a cell phone??? give me a break. I pay for my stuff and if I cant afford it then I cant have it. Plain and simple.
Guys standing on the side of the freeway asking for handouts making 100$ a day because people feel 'sorry" for them all the while they get every hand out from the Gov there is and want more.
Mean while Im killing myself to make a living and keep off/up the Gov assistance programs AND paying his rent childs health care utilities and cell phone?

In the mean time dudes rolling with a Lexus while I drive a Chevy from 1990.

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
RocketOptimist
Dawg Talker


Reged: Jun 25 2010
Posts: 2081
Loc: Toledo, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #896738 - Fri Feb 03 2012 10:16 PM

Two part reply to Peen and Nick....

Quote:

The bottom line is President Obama is a Socialist




How is this any different than those who argued that Bush was a facist? Is it possible for us as a country to move away from polarizing rhetoric which has no backing?

Quote:

and the majority in this country are stupid or on government assistance.




Don't attack the victim. Those who have the power and control in this country want it this way. No one in power wants smart and enlightened citizens.

Quote:

I got a bunch of college loans and cant find a job working for the gov for 75K~200 a year its the gov fault AND they want the money back? Hey I will just live on them then, its the 1% fault.




It's not entirely their fault. College has been marketed as a job factory for the past ten years. I'm not sure if you've been to a university open house the past decade but all universities guaranteed a degree would get you a well paying job. Should the students done some research into a career after the degree? Of course they should have but the general consensus was that "Don't worry, everything will be ok as long as you get a degree from our University."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: RocketOptimist]
      #896741 - Fri Feb 03 2012 10:46 PM

Although I can see most your points I do have some problems with other parts.

The victim part really I dont agree with. They know the system and we the tax payers are more the victim then the mochers. They know the system and play it to the fullest. I do agree though that the powers that be want them to act like victims and keep them in check.

As for the college part yeah you are right they should have done some research but on the other hand it should have been A into the field of study and B as with any loan How am I going to pay this back? If a car salesperson says hey you can afford this car and you buy it not paying attention to if you really could afford it who made out? As you said the college why because the GOV gave those loans and who payed for those loans? We did.
Should I be expected to pay for loans that went into default (much like what happened to housing) because expectations didnt meet results? Should the 1% or any percent be expected to pay for that?

So now a person has a Degree and doesnt have a job Ive paid for the degree along with everyone else they default on the loan and say its someone else's fault? Who's, oh yeah the 1%. You hit much closer to the nail then they did (the tax 1%ers) and when its all said and done they will find a job and make much more then me off my dime.

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #896743 - Fri Feb 03 2012 11:04 PM

Man you really brought up some good points, but I have to reiterate that the 1% of the population is what I was making reference to and not the 1% of the highest tax base that being another issue. I'm talking about the few hundred crooks on wall street and some of the biggest bankers who gambled the greater prosperity for all and there is really nothing from stopping them from causing an even bigger calamity.

We had a bill that helped to keep the balance and it got killed in 1987 IIRC by the Clinton administration and now there are no breaks.

Why do we have breaks on cars?

To stop ... Nope it's so we can go fast.

I know that there are many other things that need fixing and you hit on many of the same things I think of as well.

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
YTownBrownsFan
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 32412
Loc: YTown, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: RocketOptimist]
      #896755 - Sat Feb 04 2012 12:18 AM

I'm curious ...... for those who believe so .......... in what was was Bush a fascist?

He expanded Medicare and Medicaid ..... expanded and increased the EITC and Child Tax Credits ...... created the Medicare prescription plan ....... used a trillion dollars for the TARP bailout fund .......... he increased funds available for first time home buyers, and college students .......

He did cut taxes on everyone ....... including you, if you pay taxes .... because he increased the individual deduction and also lowered the bottom rate to 10% from 15%. He then also increased the limits on each bracket.

He did not pursue a "1 race" solution in any way. In fact, he appointed the first 2 black Secretaries of State in US history, the first black National Security Advisor, and so on. This type of activity flies in strict disagreement with a fascist view of a one race country/government. He also reached out to Muslims after 9-11 ..... despite many calling for their heads. That flies in the face of a monotheistic approach. Further, Bush tried to get his agenda through by being nice to the opposition, at least at first ...... by having people like Ted Kennedy and others to the White House to help work on policy. He didn't blast them on TV and say how he wanted to work with them while avoiding it at every opportunity, he actually did work with them. Hardly a fascist approach.

None of that is fascist behavior. The first paragraph is far closer to socialist behavior.What was fascist?

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Tulsa
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 21 2006
Posts: 5402
Loc: on a twisty road

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #896767 - Sat Feb 04 2012 05:30 AM

Man y'all get really windy on this subject and the real answer is so simple.

Who are the poor in this country?

The people who want to draft RG3, especially those that want to move up to get him.

I read those posts and just shake my head thinking, "poor folks, they're just ".



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Pdawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 9704


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Tulsa]
      #897425 - Mon Feb 06 2012 02:41 PM

j/k

When we talk about what the poor have, what poor people are we talking about? Those in government housing with low rent? With the reduced cost of living they can afford "creature comforts" others cannot afford at the same wages. Are we talking about the elderly who live on social security? Many of whom own their own homes with money saved.

As far as those two groups above they may be considered poor but do make enough money to buy some of the above items and I can't fault them for it. I do find it irresponsible for those in government housing to have high end things on the list but there is really no way to regulate it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Pdawg]
      #897573 - Mon Feb 06 2012 09:13 PM

perhaps yiou should look at the mom that works 2 jobs pays daycare and eats maybe once a day to keep her childern feed while taking nothing from the Gov becasue well shes working and making above what would be poverty?

That person is poor.

Maybe look at the guy living in the bushes off I-90 at W117 exit and the police move in and clean out what little he has into a dumpster and tell him to move on perhaps he is poor as well?

The person getting food stamps working at not working and getting free housing all the while driving around in a better car and now getting cell phones isnt poor. They are living off my dime and the Politicans will drive him to the polling station to vote every time.

The poorest citys in the county are all kept content so that the Politicians can keep their jobs making 3 figures as long as the poor continue to live like me for free.
JUST VOTE.

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #897576 - Mon Feb 06 2012 09:26 PM

No doubt Dems buy votes.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #897579 - Mon Feb 06 2012 09:43 PM

Quote:

No doubt Dems buy votes.




By pacification.

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
brownsfan1508
All Pro


Reged: Sep 29 2006
Posts: 570
Loc: Kent/Steubenville, OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #897603 - Tue Feb 07 2012 01:04 AM

I agree. I also think the powerful corporations buy the republicans. Therefore no one speaks for you or me.

I work hard, but at the end of the day I bring home more than enough money to support myself, even if I'm drivin a '97 rust bucket with 174000 miles on it, have a 15 year old TV, and a 7 year old computer. I wouldn't be a better person with new stuff, just as my character is not determined by my older stuff. I think it would do our society a great deal of good to "do without" some things. The materialistic, entitled, stance our society has, disgusts me.

I like to add personal stories that relate to my posts, and here's one regarding entitlement: I work as a meat cutter, and the store I work for provides a training program for those who are interested and show work ethic. Once I finished school, and didn't want to move out of state, that quickly became plan B for me.

I had about 10 years of experience as a wrapper, and put my letter of intent in. I was quickly put into the program. Well a couple of people weren't happy that I was promoted over them. These folks are always late, lazy, and generally unknowledgeable. They screamed it was unfair, since I left the company to go to school I was under them in Seniority.

They didn't see that I worked hard and went above and beyond what was asked of me. Just that it wasn't fair I make more money than them. They even went as far as telling me "it shouldn't matter how hard you work, you don't deserve it"

I think that situation represents a sad microcosm of our society as a whole. As always JMHO


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Ballpeen
Legend


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 21509


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: brownsfan1508]
      #897612 - Tue Feb 07 2012 06:03 AM

No doubt corporations support candidates, who might mostly be republican.

The difference is corporations can't vote in elections, and while some may disagree, I think the favors they seek by giving their support aren't to the determent of the American worker. IMO if it is good for the business, it is good for the workers as well.

In the case of the democrats/socialists, simply giving people money in the name of social support programs bogs this nation down.

I am of the opinion that once a person has been on public assistance for a given person of time, say a year or two, they shouldn't be able to vote. To me it's the same as if corporations were allowed to cast votes X number of times based on how much money they provided..

It's a conflict of interest IMO.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #897631 - Tue Feb 07 2012 08:36 AM

No doubt. My kids think I'm father of the year when I'm giving them stuff... when I make them work for it, I lose their vote.

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
waterdawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 5666
Loc: Back home now !

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
      #897667 - Tue Feb 07 2012 11:16 AM

Child abuse !

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Pdawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 9704


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #897677 - Tue Feb 07 2012 11:43 AM

Quote:

perhaps yiou should look at the mom that works 2 jobs pays daycare and eats maybe once a day to keep her childern feed while taking nothing from the Gov becasue well shes working and making above what would be poverty?

That person is poor.

Maybe look at the guy living in the bushes off I-90 at W117 exit and the police move in and clean out what little he has into a dumpster and tell him to move on perhaps he is poor as well?

The person getting food stamps working at not working and getting free housing all the while driving around in a better car and now getting cell phones isnt poor. They are living off my dime and the Politicans will drive him to the polling station to vote every time.

The poorest citys in the county are all kept content so that the Politicians can keep their jobs making 3 figures as long as the poor continue to live like me for free.
JUST VOTE.




Without a doubt those people are poor. The point I was trying to make (apparently badly) is there is a way to explain away the amount of poor who have some of the items mentioned. I believe it can skew the facts as to how many of the truly poor have these items.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
PDR
Legend


Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 10783


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: Ballpeen]
      #898299 - Thu Feb 09 2012 02:22 PM

Quote:


The difference is corporations can't vote in elections, and while some may disagree, I think the favors they seek by giving their support aren't to the determent of the American worker. IMO if it is good for the business, it is good for the workers as well.




Generally, most of the stuff on the federal levels has nothing to do with the workers. They're not really impacted positively or negatively. The guy who manages a Verizon store isn't going to be living any larger because Verizon got a federal subsidy.

But there are some things, like minimum wage, that certainly have an effect on the worker, and generally the corporate lobbies don't have them in mind, for obvious reasons.

The problem with corporate money in politics is that corporations accumulate a lot of clout in terms of what happens legislatively in our country, yet they have no real allegiance to the country. Their allegiance is, understandably, to themselves. So you have a source of immense influence, who will tend to push for things that benefit them, but not necessarily the greater good of the country. This isn't limited to corporations; to an extent you can catalog unions and other lobby groups in there. But there's an inherent flaw in having a government that's heavily influenced by entities that, in the end, have no real allegiance to the country itself.

--------------------
Single. Digit. Losses.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
PETE314
Dawg Talker


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 2507
Loc: Mentor, Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: brownsfan1508]
      #899305 - Mon Feb 13 2012 08:00 AM

Quote:

I agree. I also think the powerful corporations buy the republicans.


This is a the biggest CROCK I have heard yet. Corporations don't buy Republicans...They Buy POLITICIANS!!!!

You are completely off of your rocker if you don't think the Democrats and Independants aren't in bed with the Corporations. and in bed HEAVY!!!! It is a media sham that has most of the public thinking that Repubicans support Corporations and Democrats support Workers...

Corporations lobby ALL SIDES of the aisle because they are SMART and as Phil mentioned are looking out for their own interests. They have been able to do what The common people have not been able to do...which is ORGANIZE, and Influence Legislation towards those interests.

Do you honestly think they have been able to do that by working JUST on the Republicans???? Heck they are playing All sides AT THE SAME TIME...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Someone mentioned something about Colleges marketing as job trainers(or something close to that)......and as such it is not the students fault because they were duped into that thinking....

I say Horsepucky!!!!!! So what...they can market themselves as job creators.....it is still up to the BUYER to make sure the claims are true before purchasing the product. I mean Fruity Pebbles is being Marketed as being part of a Healthy Breakfast ...But that doesn't mean I want my kid ingesting all that sugar every single day.

WHERE IS THE SENSE OF PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY?????? Somewhere, somehow, SOMETIME.....we have got to start taking responsibility FOR OUR OWN CHOICES AND ACTIONS.

--------------------
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...

What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PETE314]
      #899362 - Mon Feb 13 2012 11:08 AM

well said.

--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
clevesteve
Legend


Reged: Feb 04 2007
Posts: 10632
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: PETE314]
      #899379 - Mon Feb 13 2012 11:43 AM

I thought this was a good article. Seemed like best-fit was in this thread.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/12/us/even-critics-of-safety-net-increasingly-depend-on-it.html

Even Critics of Safety Net Increasingly Depend on It

LINDSTROM, Minn. — Ki Gulbranson owns a logo apparel shop, deals in jewelry on the side and referees youth soccer games. He makes about $39,000 a year and wants you to know that he does not need any help from the federal government.

He says that too many Americans lean on taxpayers rather than living within their means. He supports politicians who promise to cut government spending. In 2010, he printed T-shirts for the Tea Party campaign of a neighbor, Chip Cravaack, who ousted this region’s long-serving Democratic congressman.

Yet this year, as in each of the past three years, Mr. Gulbranson, 57, is counting on a payment of several thousand dollars from the federal government, a subsidy for working families called the earned-income tax credit. He has signed up his three school-age children to eat free breakfast and lunch at federal expense. And Medicare paid for his mother, 88, to have hip surgery twice.

There is little poverty here in Chisago County, northeast of Minneapolis, where cheap housing for commuters is gradually replacing farmland. But Mr. Gulbranson and many other residents who describe themselves as self-sufficient members of the American middle class and as opponents of government largess are drawing more deeply on that government with each passing year.

Dozens of benefits programs provided an average of $6,583 for each man, woman and child in the county in 2009, a 69 percent increase from 2000 after adjusting for inflation. In Chisago, and across the nation, the government now provides almost $1 in benefits for every $4 in other income.

Older people get most of the benefits, primarily through Social Security and Medicare, but aid for the rest of the population has increased about as quickly through programs for the disabled, the unemployed, veterans and children.

The government safety net was created to keep Americans from abject poverty, but the poorest households no longer receive a majority of government benefits. A secondary mission has gradually become primary: maintaining the middle class from childhood through retirement. The share of benefits flowing to the least affluent households, the bottom fifth, has declined from 54 percent in 1979 to 36 percent in 2007, according to a Congressional Budget Office analysis published last year.

And as more middle-class families like the Gulbransons land in the safety net in Chisago and similar communities, anger at the government has increased alongside. Many people say they are angry because the government is wasting money and giving money to people who do not deserve it. But more than that, they say they want to reduce the role of government in their own lives. They are frustrated that they need help, feel guilty for taking it and resent the government for providing it. They say they want less help for themselves; less help in caring for relatives; less assistance when they reach old age.

The expansion of government benefits has become an issue in the presidential campaign. Rick Santorum, who won 57 percent of the vote in Chisago County in the Republican presidential caucuses last week, has warned of “the narcotic of government dependency.” Newt Gingrich has compared the safety net to a spider web. Mitt Romney has said the nation must choose between an “entitlement society” and an “opportunity society.” All the candidates, including Ron Paul, have promised to cut spending and further reduce taxes.

The problem by now is familiar to most. Politicians have expanded the safety net without a commensurate increase in revenues, a primary reason for the government’s annual deficits and mushrooming debt. In 2000, federal and state governments spent about 37 cents on the safety net from every dollar they collected in revenue, according to a New York Times analysis. A decade later, after one Medicare expansion, two recessions and three rounds of tax cuts, spending on the safety net consumed nearly 66 cents of every dollar of revenue.

The recent recession increased dependence on government, and stronger economic growth would reduce demand for programs like unemployment benefits. But the long-term trend is clear. Over the next 25 years, as the population ages and medical costs climb, the budget office projects that benefits programs will grow faster than any other part of government, driving the federal debt to dangerous heights.

Americans are divided about the way forward. Seventy percent of respondents to a recent New York Times poll said the government should raise taxes. Fifty-six percent supported cuts in Medicare and Social Security. Forty-four percent favored both.

Support for spending cuts runs strong in Chisago, where anger at the government helped fuel Mr. Cravaack’s upset victory in 2010 over James L. Oberstar, the Democrat who had represented northeast Minnesota for 36 years.

“Spending like this is simply unsustainable, and it’s time to cut up Washington, D.C.’s credit card,” Mr. Cravaack said in a February speech to the Hibbing Area Chamber of Commerce. “It may hurt now, but it will be absolutely deadly for the next generation — that’s our children and our grandchildren.”

But the reality of life here is that Mr. Gulbranson and many of his neighbors continue to take as much help from the government as they can get. When pressed to choose between paying more and taking less, many people interviewed here hemmed and hawed and said they could not decide. Some were reduced to tears. It is much easier to promise future restraint than to deny present needs.

“How do you tell someone that you deserve to have heart surgery and you can’t?” Mr. Gulbranson said.

He paused.

“You have to help and have compassion as a people, because otherwise you have no society, but financially you can’t destroy yourself. And that is what we’re doing.”

He paused again, unable to resolve the dilemma.

“I feel bad for my children.”

Middle-Class Blues

Mr. Gulbranson has tried several ways to make a living in the storefront he bought from his father in 1979. He ran a gift shop, then shifted to selling jewelry. Nine years ago, he moved the gold scales to the back and bought equipment for screen-printing clothing. Through it all, he has never made more than about $46,000 in a year.

Meanwhile, the cost of life — and of raising five children — has climbed inexorably.

“I used to go out and try to have a meal at Perkins, which is a restaurant here, and get out of the store with $5,” Mr. Gulbranson said. “And now it’s probably up to $10.”

In recent years he has earned so little that he did not pay federal income taxes, although he still paid thousands of dollars toward Medicare and Social Security. The earned-income tax credit is intended to offset those payroll taxes, to encourage people with lower-paying jobs to remain in the work force.

Mr. Gulbranson said the money covered the fees for his children’s sports leagues and the cost of keeping the older ones on the family’s car insurance.

“If we didn’t get these government things, then probably my kids could not participate in some of the sports they do,” he said.

Almost half of all Americans lived in households that received government benefits in 2010, according to the Census Bureau. The share climbed from 37.7 percent in 1998 to 44.5 percent in 2006, before the recession, to 48.5 percent in 2010.

The trend reflects the expansion of the safety net. When the earned-income credit was introduced in 1975, eligibility was limited to households making the current equivalent of up to $26,997. In 2010, it was available to families making up to $49,317. The maximum payout, meanwhile, quadrupled on an inflation-adjusted basis.

It also reflects the deterioration of the middle class. Chisago boomed and prospered for decades as working families packed new subdivisions along Interstate 35, which runs up the western edge of the county like a flagpole with its base set firmly in Minneapolis. But recent years have been leaner. Per capita income in Chisago excluding government aid fell 6 percent on an inflation-adjusted basis between 2000 and 2007. Over the next two years, it fell an additional 7 percent. Nationally, per capita income excluding government benefits fell by 3 percent over the same 10 years.

Mr. Gulbranson’s business struggled as other companies, particularly construction firms, stopped ordering logo-emblazoned shirts. In 2009, the family claimed the earned-income credit for the first time on the advice of their accountant, who was claiming it for herself. The share of local families claiming the credit climbed 33 percent between 2000 and 2008, the most recent year for which data are available.

To make extra money, Mr. Gulbranson refereed 40 soccer games on Tuesday and Thursday nights last fall. His wife sold clothes at equestrian events and air-brushed novelties at craft fairs, driving around the country with a one-ton trailer hitched to a 20-foot van.

Their difficulties, Mr. Gulbranson said, have made it hard to imagine asking anyone to pay higher taxes.

“I don’t think most people could bear to pay more,” he said.

Instead, he said he would rather give up the earned-income credit the family now receives and start paying for school lunches for his children.

“I don’t demand that the government does this for me,” he said. “I don’t feel like I need the government.”

How about Social Security? And Medicare? Can he imagine retiring without government help?

“I don’t think so,” he said. “No. I don’t know. Not the way we expect to live as Americans.”

A Starring Role

Bob Kopka and his wife often drive to the American Legion hall in North Branch on Thursday nights, joining the crowd gathered in the basement bar for the weekly meat raffle. Almost everyone present relies on the government to pay for their medical care.

Mr. Kopka, 74, has had three heart procedures in recent years. His wife recently had surgery to remove cataracts from both eyes.

Without Medicare, Mr. Kopka said, the couple could not have paid for the treatments.

“Hell, no,” he said. “No. Never. She would have to go blind.”

And him?

“I’d die.”

Few federal programs are more popular than Medicare, which along with Social Security assures a minimum quality of life for older Americans.

None are more central to the nation’s financial problems. The Congressional Budget Office projects that government spending on medical benefits, even taking into account the cost containment measures in the 2010 health care law, will rise 60 percent over the next decade. Then it will start rising even more quickly. The cost of caring for each beneficiary continues to increase, and the government projects that Medicare enrollment will grow by roughly one-third as baby boomers enter old age.

Spending on medical benefits will account for a larger share of the projected increase in the federal budget over the next decade than any other kind of spending except interest payments on the federal debt.

Medicare’s starring role in the nation’s financial problems is not well understood. Only 22 percent of respondents to the New York Times poll correctly identified Medicare as the fastest-growing benefits program. A greater number of respondents, 27 percent, chose programs for the poor. That category, which includes Medicaid, is slightly larger than Medicare today but is projected to add only half as much to federal spending over the next decade.

Medicare’s financial problems are much worse than Social Security’s. A worker earning average wages still pays enough in Social Security taxes to cover the benefits the worker is likely to receive in retirement, according to an analysis by the Urban Institute. Social Security is still running out of money because the program must also support spouses who do not work and workers who earn lower wages. But Medicare’s situation is even more dire because a worker earning average wages still contributes only $1 in Medicare taxes for every $3 in benefits likely to be received in retirement.

A woman who was 45 in 2010, earning $43,500 a year, will pay taxes that will reach a value of $87,000 by the time she retires, assuming the money is invested at an annual interest rate 2 percentage points above inflation, according to the Urban Institute analysis. But on average, the government will then spend $275,000 on her medical care. The average is somewhat lower for men, because women live longer.

Medicare is often described as an insurance program, but its premiums are not nearly high enough. In simple terms, Americans are getting more than they pay for.

But many older residents in Chisago say this problem belongs to younger generations. They paid what they were told; they want to collect what they were promised.

Some, like the Kopkas, have savings they can tap. Mr. Kopka still owns the landscaping business he started after leaving the Navy in the early 1960s. He and his wife own a three-bedroom home on three acres, valued by the county at $153,700. The mortgage is paid. They hope to pass the house to their children.

Others have nothing else. Barbara Sullivan, 71, moved last year to the apartments above the Chisago County Senior Center in North Branch. Waiting on a recent Friday for the hot lunch, which costs $3.50, she watched roughly 20 people play bingo for prizes including canned soup and Chef Boyardee pasta.

“Most of the seniors around here are struggling to make it,” she said.

She counts herself among them. She lives on $1,220 a month in Social Security benefits and relied on Medicare to pay for an operation in November.

She believes that she is taking more from the government than she paid in taxes. She worries about the consequences for her grandchildren. She said she would like politicians to propose solutions.

“We’re reasonable people,” she said. “We’re not going to say, ‘Give it to me and let my grandchildren suffer.’ I think they underestimate seniors when they think that way.”

But she cannot imagine asking people to pay higher taxes. And as she considered making do with less, she started to cry.

“Without it, I’m not sure how I would live,” she said. “With the check I’m getting from Social Security, it’s a constant struggle on making sure that I pay my rent and have enough left for groceries.

“I haven’t bought a Christmas present, I haven’t bought clothing in the last five years, simply because I can’t afford it.”



Keeping a Promise

Representative Cravaack often says he entered politics to lift the burden of debt from the shoulders of his two sons.

“I vision that I open up their backpacks and I put in a 50-pound rock and zip it back up again,” Mr. Cravaack told the Minnesota Freedom Council in October 2010. “And I say, ‘Sorry, son, you’re going to have to hump this the rest of your life.’ Because that’s exactly what we’re doing to our national debt right now to our children.”

Mr. Cravaack, a 53-year-old Navy veteran and a retired pilot for Northwest Airlines, was grounded by sleep apnea in 2007. He and his wife, an executive at the drug company Novo Nordisk, decided he would stay home with their sons. He soon became the first man to serve as president of the Chisago Lakes Parent Teacher Organization.

In August 2009, while driving the children to North Branch, he heard a talk radio host urging people to protest President Obama’s health care legislation. Mr. Cravaack and about two dozen others spent more than two hours the next day in Mr. Oberstar’s North Branch office before a staff member told them the congressman would not meet them. The rejection convinced Mr. Cravaack that Mr. Oberstar should be replaced. One of the other protesters, a woman who had taken her six children to the office, became Mr. Cravaack’s campaign scheduler.

Two weeks after speaking to the Freedom Council, he beat Mr. Oberstar by 1.6 percentage points, or 4,407 votes. Voters in Chisago, the southern tip of an expansive district, provided the margin of victory.

“We have to break away,” Mr. Cravaack told supporters, “from relying on government to provide all the answers.”

Mr. Cravaack has said he drew unemployment benefits during a furlough from Northwest in the early 1990s. He did not respond to several requests for an interview, nor to an e-mail with questions about his views and about whether his family has drawn on other benefits programs. This account is based on a review of his public statements.

Shortly after arriving in Congress, Mr. Cravaack voted with a vast majority of House Republicans for a plan to remake Medicare by providing money to its beneficiaries to buy private insurance. Senate Democrats have rejected that plan.

But Mr. Cravaack has also consistently said the government should not reduce its largest category of spending — benefits for the current generation of retirees. He also says he does not support cuts for people who will turn 65 over the next decade.

“If you’re 55 years and older, you don’t have to listen to this conversation because we have to keep those promises,” Mr. Cravaack told The Daily Caller last April. “People like myself, 52, if you’re 54 or younger, we’re going to have a conversation.”

Tomorrow, Tomorrow

The government helps Matt Falk and his wife care for their disabled 14-year-old daughter. It pays for extra assistance at school and for trained attendants to stay with her at home while they work. It pays much of the cost of her regular visits to the hospital.

Mr. Falk, 42, would like the government to do less.

“She doesn’t need some of the stuff that we’re doing for her,” said Mr. Falk, who owns a heating and air-conditioning business in North Branch. “I don’t think it’s a bad thing if society can afford it, but given the situation that our society is facing, we just have to say that we can’t offer as much resources at school or that we need to pay a higher premium” for her medical care.

Mr. Falk, who voted for Mr. Cravaack, said he did not want to pay higher taxes and did not want the government to impose higher taxes on anyone else. He said that his family appreciated the government’s help and that living with less would be painful for them and many other families. But he said the government could not continue to operate on borrowed money.

“They’re going to have to reduce benefits,” he said. “We’re going to have to accept it, and we’re going to have to suffer.”

One of the oldest criticisms of democracy is that the people will inevitably drain the treasury by demanding more spending than taxes. The theory is that citizens who get more than they pay for will vote for politicians who promise to increase spending.

But Dean P. Lacy, a professor of political science at Dartmouth College, has identified a twist on that theme in American politics over the last generation. Support for Republican candidates, who generally promise to cut government spending, has increased since 1980 in states where the federal government spends more than it collects. The greater the dependence, the greater the support for Republican candidates.

Conversely, states that pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits tend to support Democratic candidates. And Professor Lacy found that the pattern could not be explained by demographics or social issues.

Chisago has shifted over 30 years from dependably Democratic to reliably Republican. Support for the Republican presidential candidate has increased relative to the national vote in each election since 1984. Senator John McCain won 55 percent of the vote here in 2008.

Residents say social issues play a role, but in recent years concerns about spending and taxes have predominated.

Voters in the North Branch school district have rejected increased financing for local schools in each of the past three years. In 2010, the district switched to a four-day school week, striking Monday from the calendar to save money.

Some of the fiercest advocates for spending cuts have drawn public benefits. Many, like Mr. Falk, have family members who rely on the government. They often cite that personal experience as the reason they want to cut government spending.

Brian Qualley, 49, has a sister who survived a brain tumor but was disabled by its removal. The government pays for her care at an assisted-living facility. Their mother scrapes by on Social Security.

Mr. Qualley said that the government should provide for those who need help, but that too much money was being wasted. Mr. Qualley, who owns a tattoo parlor in Harris, north of North Branch, said some of his customers paid with money from government disability checks.

“They’re getting $300 or $400 tattoos, and they’re wearing nice new Nike shoes that I can’t afford,” he said, looking up from working a complicated design into the left leg of a middle-aged woman. “I guess I shouldn’t say it because it’s my business, but I think a tattoo is a little too extravagant.”

But Mr. Qualley said he did not want to reduce benefits for the current generation of retirees. Rather, he said his own generation should get less, because they have time to prepare. This is a common position among the young and healthy in Chisago.

Mr. Qualley said he was saving some money for retirement, although, he added, “I don’t have a 401(k) or anything like that.”

“I also have a job that I don’t necessarily ever want to — or have to — retire from,” he said.

What if his hands start to shake as he gets older?

“Actually,” he said, the electric needle falling silent in his hand, “it’s my shoulders and neck that bother me most.”

Safety in Numbers

Barbara Nelson has little patience for people who say they will not need government help. She considers herself lucky she has not, and obligated to provide for those who do.

“Catastrophes happen in life,” she said, sitting in a coffee shop in Taylors Falls. “To be so arrogant that you think it won’t happen to you, that somehow you’re going to be one of the special ones, I disagree with that.”

Ms. Nelson, 61, who describes herself as a centrist Democrat, also dismisses the claim that people cannot afford to pay more taxes.

“Anyone who can come into a coffee shop and buy coffee is capable of paying more,” she said. “If someone’s life can be granted, in terms of adequate health care, if that means I give up five cups of coffee a month, that is a small price to pay.”

Gordy Peterson, 62, who has used a wheelchair for 30 years since a construction accident, has reluctantly reached a similar conclusion.

“I’m a conservative,” he said by way of introducing himself. He built his own house before his injury and paid for it in cash. He still thinks the government should operate that way. He never intended to depend on federal aid and said he sometimes felt guilty about it.

But for the last three decades, he has received a regular check from the Social Security disability insurance program, and Medicare has helped to pay his medical bills.

“Here I’m getting money, and everybody is struggling,” he said. “Even though it ain’t no cakewalk for me.”

Mr. Peterson used a workers’ compensation settlement to buy a farm that he managed with his brother-in-law, who is mentally handicapped and also on government disability.

“He was my legs, and we worked it,” Mr. Peterson said.

They grew corn, soybeans and rye, and even kept steers for a while. In good years they earned enough to live on. In bad years they lived on the government’s checks. Life would have been very difficult without them, he said.

Mr. Peterson, an easygoing man who looks down when he thinks and smiles sheepishly when he offers an opinion, looked down after completing the story of his own dependence on the safety net.

“It’s hard to beat up on the government when they’ve been so good to you,” he finally said. “I’ve never really thought about it, I guess.”

Lately, the government has been very good, indeed. The county, with federal financing, bought a corner of Mr. Peterson’s farm to build a new interchange for Interstate 35. He used the money to open a gas station at the edge of the farm in 2008 to serve the traffic that rolls off the new ramp. The business is prospering, and he no longer worries that he will need to depend on Social Security.

“But you can’t take that away,” he said. “My own sister has only Social Security. That’s all. That’s all she’s going to have. And if you take that away from her, Christ, she’d be a street person. I don’t think we can cut them off on that.”

How about higher taxes?

Maybe a little higher, he said. Maybe.

“I’m glad I’m not a politician,” he said. “We’re all going to complain no matter what they do. Nobody wants to put a noose around their own neck.”


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: clevesteve]
      #899485 - Mon Feb 13 2012 04:18 PM

Nice read alot of stuff in there. The one thing though that I hate seeing is how they lump SS into gov spending. Only reason is SS was a seperate thing and until the Gov starting taking out billion dollar loans from the system thus bankrupting it as well, it was doing fine and still would have continued to be fine.
Now that the loan/IOU's are coming due the Gov says hey look SS is killing us we need to cut stuff.

Again good read alot more in there that is worthy of lots of discussion. Thanks.

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
BrownieElf
Dawg Talker


Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 1911
Loc: Ohio

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #899493 - Mon Feb 13 2012 04:38 PM

it is true that the government has been writing iou's to SS.

That in effect isn't why its going to go under. Back when it was created there were many workers supporting the few. Something like 10 workers for everyone on SS. Now its something like 2-3 workers for everyone on SS.

They grew the program, and now its not sustainable.

--------------------
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: BrownieElf]
      #899513 - Mon Feb 13 2012 05:21 PM

The problem, as it is with most things, is that SS was never intended to be a major source of retirement income for everybody.. it was intended to be a small supplement for those who were in a bad situation at retirement.. but people came to rely on it and people stopped saving for retirement (or at least they didn't save enough).. Couple that with the switch from pension systems (which I always felt were stupid) to the 401K and IRA system which puts the burden on you.. and that is how this mess got created....

Oh and of course borrowing the money and spending it on other things ..... and pretending they didn't KNOW that we were headed down a road where the number of workers supporting the number of retirees was shrinking... (which they have seen coming for 30 years).. those 2 things didn't help either.

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
NickBrownsFan
Dawg Talker


Reged: Oct 25 2006
Posts: 2061


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: BrownieElf]
      #899980 - Wed Feb 15 2012 12:23 PM

Quote:

it is true that the government has been writing iou's to SS.

That in effect isn't why its going to go under. Back when it was created there were many workers supporting the few. Something like 10 workers for everyone on SS. Now its something like 2-3 workers for everyone on SS.

They grew the program, and now its not sustainable.




While I dont have the numbers in front of me that may very well be true however the money that was coming in while the many (baby boomers etc) were paying in would have been accuring at a rate equal to inflation if left alone.
Takeing the money and not paying it back broke the system. Taking the money at intrest free rates broke the system. Now they want to cut the payouts and list it in the gov budget.

Well tell your kids well I bought a 150 million dollar house raised you in it however I didnt make any payments on it and now you need to start making payments on that house with acumulated interest on the loan. I cant afford that I have my own house I need to fund now so whats the answer? Your going to pay it anyway and we dont care because you cant do anything about it anyway.

SS was sustainable just as the Post Office was sustainable before the Gov said they had to pay 5 billion a year in advance into a retirement fund so the Gov could spend that as well.

Now If the Gov had used SS money to fund say Housing loans and student loans wtih proper oversight even at low interest rates of 2-5% it would have kept ahead of inflation but thats not what happened.

The Gov and media spit out what they want us to believe its up to us to somehow find the truth.

Link

Notice how the money was used up to fund special interests mask the debt instead of profit?

Anyway good thoughts being posted here I like it.

--------------------
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
FL_Dawg
Hall of Famer


Reged: May 04 2008
Posts: 6870
Loc: Austinburg OH

Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #900037 - Wed Feb 15 2012 03:09 PM

Good dialog thanks.

Don't have anything to add other then a quote from my father still rings in my head.

"Their darn (not his words) Crooks, if you or I did this we would be in prison"



--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
DCDAWGFAN
Legend


Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 30804


Re: Just who are the poor in this country? [Re: FL_Dawg]
      #900184 - Thu Feb 16 2012 08:19 AM

For anybody who wants to know where a bunch of the earmark spending is going... as if you didn't know already.

Congressional Earmarks

--------------------
"Success is not owned, it's leased and the rent is due every day." JJ Watt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator            Share: Post to facebook   Digg this   Post to del.icio.us
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)


Dawg Talkers Message Boards >> Everything Else...

Extra information
1 registered and 11 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled


Topic views: 4328

Jump to

Contact Us dawgtalkers.net

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5