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archbolddawg
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Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue
      #898301 - Thu Feb 09 2012 02:31 PM

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/09/news/economy/postal_service_loss/index.htm?source=cnn_bin

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The U.S. Postal Service renewed its pleas for congressional support Thursday as the floundering agency reported another massive quarterly loss.

The Postal Service announced that it sustained a net loss of $3.3 billion in the last three months of 2011, as declining mail volumes and mounting benefit costs continue to weigh on its business.

In the previous fiscal year, the Postal Service lost $5.1 billion and said its losses would have been roughly $10.6 billion if not for the passage of legislation postponing a $5.5 billion payment required to pre-fund retiree health benefits.

In a statement, the Postal Service urged the government to do away with the requirement that such benefits be funded at their current rates, and also called for greater "delivery flexibility."

The Postal Service has floated the idea of scaling back to five-day delivery from the current six-day system to save costs, though this is unpopular with Congress, which has the final authority. Also under consideration is a plan to slow down next-day service.

"Passage of legislation is urgently needed that provides the Postal Service with the speed and flexibility needed to cut costs that are not under our control, including employee health care costs," Postmaster General Patrick Donahoe said in the statement.

The Postal Service warned that it could default on its health benefit pre-payments this year. It may also reach its $15 billion debt limit and run out of cash even if Congress changes or eliminates the pre-funding requirement.

The Postal Service is chartered as a government enterprise but does not receive taxpayer support.

In an effort to cut some $20 billion in costs, the agency plans to close post offices around the country. But it has delayed the closures until May 15, allowing Congress some time to devise a plan to support it.

The Postal Service's struggles have come even as its private-sector competition is thriving. Both UPS (UPS, Fortune 500) and FedEx (FDX, Fortune 500) reported strong increases in earnings and revenue in their most recent quarterly reports.




Anyone see a problem here? Last year, they lost $5.1 billion and it would have been $10.6 billion if not for congress allowing them to postpone a $5.5 billion contribution to retiree health care.

The last quarter reported - that's quarter, as in 1/4 of a year, they lost $3.3 billion. That's $3,300,000,000.00. In 3 months. Largely due to increasing benefit costs, and a decrease in business.

2 problems here: First one is, the retirement package they put out is unsustainable. Without doubt - and don't give me the whole "well, in order to get good employees, we have to offer great retirement" crap. Sorry man, ain't gonna cut it. They pay damn well - let the employees fend for themselves in retirement.

Secondly, the USPS half assed solution? Cut service in order to save money. .....Hmmm, let's see here: You're bankrupt, you spend more than you earn, other companies are taking your business, so you opt to cut your service? No wonder they're bankrupt.

Any one see how this "guaranteed retirement" with a pension and health care is screwing things up? If you can't see it, it's because you're part of it.

What ever happened to taking care of yourself - making sure you saved enough during your working years in order to retire?

Wanna know why things cost so much here? Because people expect to be taken care of from birth to grave, without any personal responsibility for themselves.

Rant done.


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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898303 - Thu Feb 09 2012 02:39 PM

I would try to get more into the overnight package service ala UPS if I was in charge. It's better to make $10 on a package than $0.05 on a letter. They could still handle the postal business, but pick up for packages would be huge. I know that they already do it to an extent, but who wouldn't rather be able to put their packages with their outgoing mail, and not have to think about it?

I think that 5 day service is coming, and it really should. Why have 6 day/week mail service with massively declining pieces delivered? Is there any bill or ad that is so vital that it can't go out so as to be delivered on Friday or Monday instead of Saturday?

I would suggest that they raise rates, but I believe that would only cut their postal pieces even more. 10 bills/month @ $0.50 each is $5/month. Double that and you might get more people opting for other solutions to pay their bills.

--------------------
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PrplPplEater
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898306 - Thu Feb 09 2012 02:45 PM

Quote:

Cut service in order to save money. .....Hmmm, let's see here: You're bankrupt, you spend more than you earn, other companies are taking your business, so you opt to cut your service? No wonder they're bankrupt.





I think that you're forgetting that their standard service isn't - by itself - an income generator, it is a cost center.
By cutting daily deliveries from 6 days a week to 5, they theoretically save costs because they won't need people to work extra, or they can have fewer employees.


If nothing else, this is what happens when Gov't regulations are allowed to completely run something that is supposed to operate like a business...

--------------------
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"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."


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DeisleDawg
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898311 - Thu Feb 09 2012 02:56 PM

I barely send or receive mail...Do most of it on the computer...

Told my mail man not to leave junk mail in my box...

a friend who has worked with the Postal service for a long time...makes 90+ K a year and has an incredible benefits / retirement plan..

There are many company's that have cut back..if not stopped over time...and have restructured their pension plans...

The post office is just another government ( not permitted ) up !


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archbolddawg
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: PrplPplEater]
      #898316 - Thu Feb 09 2012 03:27 PM

Quote:


I think that you're forgetting that their standard service isn't - by itself - an income generator, it is a cost center.



With all due respect, I don't believe I'm forgetting anything.
Quote:



By cutting daily deliveries from 6 days a week to 5, they theoretically save costs because they won't need people to work extra, or they can have fewer employees.




Apparently the pay, pension, and healthcare for life thing doesn't factor in to your equation? Let's face it: when your income does not meet your outgo, you have problems. Big problems. And their answer? Let's cut service to save a dime, while ignoring the pensions and healthcare that are killing them.

In other words, let's alienate many, so we can save a dime - and then let's charge more for what we DO do, while still losing money.........cause, we have to because we are beholden to paying for non working employees pensions and health care. Yeah, that'll work. See where it's gotten them? $3.3 billion in losses for one quarter? I'm no math whiz, but it seems to me that's $1,100,000,000.00 in loss each month. That's over $36,000,000.00 loss per day. And cutting service is their answer????????

Cut service, you cut even more of your revenue. But, who cares, as long as the mail dudes are making a good wage, and can retire after 30 years, right?

Quote:




If nothing else, this is what happens when Gov't regulations are allowed to completely run something that is supposed to operate like a business...




Correct. But it's not gov'.t reg's doing this. What is doing this is the outrageous and unsustainable perks they pay, and promise.

My guess is they could raise the price of a stamp to $1.00 and they still wouldn't be able to cover costs plus promises.

What ever happened to people working for themselves? Taking care of themselves? Who came up with the "hey, you work for basically 1/3 of your life, and we'll take care of you for the rest of your life? (1/3rd meaning you don't work for the first 18 years of your life, you work for 30 years, then get taken care of for the next 27 years - based on an average life span of 75 years)


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no_logo_required
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898319 - Thu Feb 09 2012 03:30 PM

they are not ignoring the healthcare and pensions. they are contractually obligated to fulfill those deals.

unless they can get them over-ruled or reduced (I know a business would go through bankruptcy filing to do so, not sure on the process for a gov't entity)

--------------------
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archbolddawg
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898325 - Thu Feb 09 2012 03:33 PM

Quote:

they are not ignoring the healthcare and pensions. they are contractually obligated to fulfill those deals.

unless they can get them over-ruled or reduced (I know a business would go through bankruptcy filing to do so, not sure on the process for a gov't entity)




And thus, my whole point in even posting this: Promising that which you cannot deliver is just stupid. USPS is just an example.

UAW is another example. There are many more - but those 2 take the cake................well, if we throw gov't. out of the mix that is.


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Damanshot
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898330 - Thu Feb 09 2012 03:41 PM

The USPS has to be sold and privatized, or they need to be fully funded in order to compete with Fedex and UPS.

If you think about it, they have the infrastructure in place.. run correctly, they could actually be a money maker..

--------------------
If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving isn't for you



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PDR
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898331 - Thu Feb 09 2012 03:47 PM

Quote:

Who came up with the "hey, you work for basically 1/3 of your life, and we'll take care of you for the rest of your life?




The American Express Co. started the first U.S. pension/retirement plan in 1875.

Generally, pension benefits were around 20-30% of pay, for those 65 and up (with average life expectancy just below that number).

In the 1940's, GM rolled out what is closer to modern pension benefits.

--------------------


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archbolddawg
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: Damanshot]
      #898332 - Thu Feb 09 2012 03:49 PM

Could be - that's the key. They had - HAD - a monopoly. Look what they've done with that power: Gone bankrupt - due to? Not changing, and promising pensions and health care.

Now they have contracts they can't get out of........when things were good for them - they over promised.

Ever hear of the .......ah, can't think of it right now - but the, basically, "over capacity" "jobs" they have? Wrong wording, I know - but here's how it works: We don't have work for you, we can't lay you off, so, you just show up, sit in this room, and we'll pay you. You can read, write, play games, sleep - we don't care what you do, as long as you show up. You'll get paid.

And they - usps - can't understand why they are broke??????

Their answer is to cut delivery days? Their answer is to say "hey, no more 'next day' "?

Must be some government idealogy going on........


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archbolddawg
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: PDR]
      #898334 - Thu Feb 09 2012 03:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Who came up with the "hey, you work for basically 1/3 of your life, and we'll take care of you for the rest of your life?




The American Express Co. started the first U.S. pension/retirement plan in 1875.

Generally, pension benefits were around 20-30% of pay, for those 65 and up (with average life expectancy just below that number).

In the 1940's, GM rolled out what is closer to modern pension benefits.




Ah, so even back in 1875 they expected people to take care of themselves. Even back in 1875 they agreed to only pay a retiree 20 to 30 percent of their wages...............


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PDR
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898345 - Thu Feb 09 2012 04:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Who came up with the "hey, you work for basically 1/3 of your life, and we'll take care of you for the rest of your life?




The American Express Co. started the first U.S. pension/retirement plan in 1875.

Generally, pension benefits were around 20-30% of pay, for those 65 and up (with average life expectancy just below that number).

In the 1940's, GM rolled out what is closer to modern pension benefits.




Ah, so even back in 1875 they expected people to take care of themselves. Even back in 1875 they agreed to only pay a retiree 20 to 30 percent of their wages...............




You missed the key part in there.

Life expectancy.

The modern pension was pretty much crafted around paying someone in the last few years of their life. When modern pensions started, those eligible were statistically ready to kick the bucket relatively soon. In some periods, getting to pension age was beating the odds.

What's happened is that people are living longer, and it's costing them a lot of money to do so, both in general expenses and medical bills. The modern pension plan isn't really equipped to handle it.

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FreeAgent
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898346 - Thu Feb 09 2012 04:26 PM

Quote:

so even back in 1875 they expected people to take care of themselves. Even back in 1875 they agreed to only pay a retiree 20 to 30 percent of their wages...............




One would think that by the time you retire you should have 1) Saved some money on your own and 2) Should have eliminated your debt including your house.

So at the time of your retirement 20-30% of your pay with your savings should be good.

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archbolddawg
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: PDR]
      #898349 - Thu Feb 09 2012 04:26 PM

Right.

I don't think I missed anything.

Perhaps you did?


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PrplPplEater
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898363 - Thu Feb 09 2012 04:55 PM

Obviously, you did miss something.

If they don't have as much service, they don't need as many employees and/or don't need to pay as much overtime.

If they need fewer employees, then get to lay them off without paying any further benefits - including salary. That is called a cost savings.
If they get to reduce overtime for existing employees, that is reduced pay and despite continuing to pay other benefits and salary - that is also still classified as a cost savings.

--------------------
-Chris

"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."


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archbolddawg
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: PrplPplEater]
      #898405 - Thu Feb 09 2012 07:14 PM

Understood.

What you are missing is the usps doesn't lay people off. If they do, they still pay them. The only cost savings by not delivering 6 days a week is the fuel savings. They save no money in labor by not delivering. They pay the people regardless. That's that union crap. Why do you think they have people show up for work, then send them to the "waiting" room?

Here it is in a nutshell: The "contracts" are killing them in costs. The web is taking some of their business. And their response is.........cut service?

Call me stupid, but their response SHOULD be increase service, eliminate the contracts.


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Damanshot
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898412 - Thu Feb 09 2012 07:44 PM

Ok,, so I go out on the web to see if I can find anything that says the PO can't lay people off and all I find is that they have laid people off..

I also know that the post office used to use a ton of Temps. And they laid them off at will whenever they wanted or needed too.

So, honesly, I don't have an idea of what you are talking about not being able to lay them off or laying them off but having them show up just to get paid.

I need more info cause that isn't jiving with what I'm reading elsewhere on the web. Is there something in particular I should be looking for to see what you mean?

--------------------
If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving isn't for you



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Ballpeen
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #898419 - Thu Feb 09 2012 08:11 PM

Quote:

I would try to get more into the overnight package service ala UPS if I was in charge. It's better to make $10 on a package than $0.05 on a letter. They could still handle the postal business, but pick up for packages would be huge. I know that they already do it to an extent, but who wouldn't rather be able to put their packages with their outgoing mail, and not have to think about it?

I think that 5 day service is coming, and it really should. Why have 6 day/week mail service with massively declining pieces delivered? Is there any bill or ad that is so vital that it can't go out so as to be delivered on Friday or Monday instead of Saturday?

I would suggest that they raise rates, but I believe that would only cut their postal pieces even more. 10 bills/month @ $0.50 each is $5/month. Double that and you might get more people opting for other solutions to pay their bills.







You can try all you want, but the problem they face is they can't cherry pick the business.


UPS, Fed Ex, etc can say those aren't service areas, but the USPS has to deliver that junk mail piece to some Eskimo living in the town over 500 mountains in Alaska. Opting for other solutions to pay bills is exactly the problem. They are expected to operate like they get the volume when they don't, so it opens people to complain about their workers benefits.


Arch can complain about retiremet benefits, which WAS what federal jobs were all about, or you can talk about being more competitive, but you have to ask yourself a question:

Is having a National Postal Service worth it???


You can say no, but I'd say you are full of crap(being respectful here). The USPS has a box every 5-6 blocks in most cases or a office inside 10 miles. UPS has one office in this town, and a box every who knows where.


Sorry, the USPS is a social service that needs full funding.



Both of you know I am a pretty strict conservative, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in social programs for the greater good. I do believe in economy of scale and in some selective situations, competition is a bad thing and actually raises costs.

The USPS would be one of them. Utilities would be another.

--------------------
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






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FloridaFan
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: FreeAgent]
      #898437 - Thu Feb 09 2012 09:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

so even back in 1875 they expected people to take care of themselves. Even back in 1875 they agreed to only pay a retiree 20 to 30 percent of their wages...............




One would think that by the time you retire you should have 1) Saved some money on your own and 2) Should have eliminated your debt including your house.

So at the time of your retirement 20-30% of your pay with your savings should be good.




Aren't USPS workers eligible for retirement at like 55?

--------------------
Respect the previous generation, we graduated without Google or Wikipedia.


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NickBrownsFan
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: FloridaFan]
      #898443 - Thu Feb 09 2012 10:07 PM

here is something old for reading

--------------------
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OldColdDawg
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Reged: Sep 28 2006
Posts: 1743


Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: NickBrownsFan]
      #898458 - Fri Feb 10 2012 12:15 AM

Maybe they should create and enforce an email stamp law. Make it a quarter to email somebody. That would certainly cut down the spam and help the USPS.







kidding, but fun to suggest.


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KingSteve
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: OldColdDawg]
      #898471 - Fri Feb 10 2012 02:04 AM

My father works for the Postal Service and there are plenty of errors in their ways.

1. Its impossible to fire/lay off anyone, and that is the biggest money waster in the business. There are some truly horrendous postal workers that never ever get fired no matter how bad they are. A worker at his office (he is a supervisor now) got caught drunk and asleep in his vehicle and wasnt fired. They protext their employees too much.

2. They are the ONLY read it ONLY government office that is fully funded by itself. They receive absolutely 0 dollars from the government. All the money they have is made from their business. With declining service in letters and such, they do need to scale back their service a day because they can lower their numbers in terms of employees. Except...at this point...they wouldnt do that. they would reassign everyone. Which means...moneys going out would still be the same. the need the ability to lay off workers, or fire poor workers. Thats the biggest issue. Regardless of how many days they serve, theyll become overstaffed.

3. Overstaffing. They cant fire people so theyre overstaffed. That is a money waster.


Their pension isnt that great. Their benefits package is nice, but their money given out is very little. My dad will get about 30% of his 60k salary when he finishes...hardly overpaid, so the money is more disappearing in the sheer volume of retired people that are still alive and using it. that being said...while it seems as though they are given lifetime benefits...thats not the case...they pay for your benefits and salary compensation until you can get social security. So its not as great as it seems.



Biggest issues are overstaffing, inability to remove bad employees, and 1 day too many in deliveries.

--------------------
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"


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~TuX~
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: OldColdDawg]
      #898473 - Fri Feb 10 2012 02:17 AM

Quote:

Maybe they should create and enforce an email stamp law. Make it a quarter to email somebody. That would certainly cut down the spam and help the USPS.


Do people still email? I thought it was all about Facebooking and tweeting.



kidding, but fun to suggest.




--------------------


"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"


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Ballpeen
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: ~TuX~]
      #898482 - Fri Feb 10 2012 07:05 AM

That, and the reality is most e-mails have taken the place of a phone call more then a mailed letter.

--------------------
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BrownieElf
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: KingSteve]
      #898503 - Fri Feb 10 2012 08:13 AM

How can they not be able to lay off anyone?

Thats like a basic management right.
And when you say that they can't fire anyone I doubt the contract really says that. Don't they have progressive discipline?

And I have to agree with you about the pensions. I don't get why everyone gets in an uproar about them. Companies aren't paying after the employee retires. They are paying into it when the employee is working.

I'm pretty pro union. It burns me up when i hear stories of people that should be fired that aren't, or people who do a crappy job.

I worked in the trades, and now i'm a fire-fighter. I've seen people fired and laid-off in both, so i can say i don't see how the postal service can't do it.

You couldn't do your job in the trades...you were gone.

In the fire service we have progressive discipline. The goal being changing bad behavior. You have to be screwing up pretty consistently to get fired. It does happen though.

That drunk guy you mentioned. That's unacceptable at work for sure. What that guy needs is help, because he probably has a problem.

In the non-union world your at the mercy of your owner. He might tell you to go to rehab, or he might tell you to clean out your desk.

With a contract (if it says it) you would get sent for help. In other words, you get a chance. It continues, then you more than likely would be gone.

If these people are all such crappy employees...which i highly doubt..then a bunch of supervisors aren't doing their job. No way those people are in the union.


The postal service is going down for a few reasons.

snail mail is on the decline and the government is inefficient.Basically way less demand for what used to be their main product (letters) and packages are down from competition.

The idea of saving a business isn't always a smart one either. It is always bad to see someone lose a job, but history is i'm sure littered with examples of jobs that became nearly nonexistent, or were eliminated totally.

Railroads took a big hit i'm sure with the invention of cars. Even more with planes.

The milkman...the Charlie Chip guy...

--------------------
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!


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Arps
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: BrownieElf]
      #898506 - Fri Feb 10 2012 08:21 AM

In PA I worked with a guy that was drunk, or too hung over to work often. (non union factory) He was fired, then got a note from a doctor that he was an alcoholic and was then covered by the disability's act. He got his job back and we had to carry his dead weight. He bragged about just having to go to a certain number of meetings and stuff a week. Then he could basically do whatever he wanted...

Anyhow...I cant believe the Post office still delivers on Saturday. We pay all our bills on line, and literally get 5-10 pieces of mail a week most of which is junk mail and magazines we order. I figured by now residential mail would be down to Monday, Wednesday, Friday delivery only.

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FloridaFan
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: BrownieElf]
      #898508 - Fri Feb 10 2012 08:24 AM

jc.


Also have to consider that they keep raising the price of a stamp, which in turn pushes more people to use online payments and/or email etc. They are creating their own demise in many ways.

Is there anything the USPS does that can't be done by something or someone else currently? No.

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archbolddawg
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: Damanshot]
      #898520 - Fri Feb 10 2012 08:54 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fede...b9nmJ_blog.html

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/30/post-office-has-thousands-of-workers-paid-for-not-working/

Now, I did find this, concerning the usps asking congress to change the legislation that forbids them from laying workers off - but I don't know if congress did anything about it.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/11/news/economy/postal_service_layoffs/index.htm


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BrownieElf
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Re: Postal Service pleads for help as losses continue [Re: archbolddawg]
      #898622 - Fri Feb 10 2012 12:43 PM

That is insane.

Who in the heck is in charge of negotiations for the government?

I don't understand one bit how this could be structured the way it is. It makes no sense whatsoever.

At my level, which is local government, the government has certain management rights.

This is from ORC 4117.08


(C) Unless a public employer agrees otherwise in a collective bargaining agreement, nothing in Chapter 4117. of the Revised Code impairs the right and responsibility of each public employer to:

(1) Determine matters of inherent managerial policy which include, but are not limited to areas of discretion or policy such as the functions and programs of the public employer, standards of services, its overall budget, utilization of technology, and organizational structure;

(2) Direct, supervise, evaluate, or hire employees;

(3) Maintain and improve the efficiency and effectiveness of governmental operations;

(4) Determine the overall methods, process, means, or personnel by which governmental operations are to be conducted;

(5) Suspend, discipline, demote, or discharge for just cause, or lay off, transfer, assign, schedule, promote, or retain employees;

(6) Determine the adequacy of the work force;

(7) Determine the overall mission of the employer as a unit of government;

(8) Effectively manage the work force;

(9) Take actions to carry out the mission of the public employer as a governmental unit.

The employer is not required to bargain on subjects reserved to the management and direction of the governmental unit except as affect wages, hours, terms and conditions of employment, and the continuation, modification, or deletion of an existing provision of a collective bargaining agreement. A public employee or exclusive representative may raise a legitimate complaint or file a grievance based on the collective bargaining agreement.



Thats like the boilerplate language. Our contract even goes into greater detail as to their powers, but those general guidelines mean they can layoff, restructure, downsize....etc.

Minimum staffing levels is something we talked about and tried to get in our first contract, and were told that it was a management right, and they want to keep it. No arbitrator or judge...nobody can give those to you.


Someone....management, whoever negotiates for the feds, is a moron. I'm a firm believer in unions, but it's not about getting the upper hand....its about having a say.

I've seen "show up" time, or "rain out" time, so maybe it was along those lines for the idle time. I could see them granting something like that instead of a raise, not foreseeing the postal service ever getting replaced.

The no layoff thing is pretty much criminal though. How do they not have a re-opener in emergency situations either?

The feds shouldn't be able to break a contract....contracts are what they are in regards to anything.

They should however be able to layoff if the "business" is bleeding that bad, and force the union to sit down and help make the thing viable. I don't get it.

I don't blame people for trying to increase their "security"..thats a base part of our nature. I doubt that there is anyone in here that would say "no" if a company told you that they would guarantee that they won't lay you off.


The union had to ask for it, now i think they need to help fix this once the negotiations start.

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