Never before have gas prices risen so high so early in the year
The U.S. average for regular gasoline climbed to $3.523 a gallon over the last week — and $3.835 in California — a sign that pain at the pump will rise to some of the highest levels ever this year.
By Ronald D. White, Los Angeles Times February 14, 2012 U.S. motorists have seen the national average for regular gasoline rise above $3.50 a gallon in just three different years, but it has never happened this early.
The national average hit $3.523 a gallon, the Energy Department said Monday, up 4.1 cents from a week earlier. Analysts said the early price shocker is likely a sign that pain at the pump will rise to some of the highest levels ever this year.
"This definitely sets the stage, potentially, for much higher prices later this year," said Brian L. Milne, refined-fuels editor for Telvent DTN, a commodity information services firm. "There's a chance that the U.S. average tops $4 a gallon by June, with some parts of the country approaching $5 a gallon."
Even in 2008, the year that average gasoline prices hit records above $4 nationally and in California during the summer, the U.S. average didn't climb above $3.50 until April 21, according to the Energy Department's weekly survey of service stations. The $3.50 mark also was breached last year, but not until March 6.
This time, the dubious milestone was hit weeks before prices usually rise because of refineries typically shutting down for spring maintenance, and weeks before the prices rise again when states switch from less expensive winter blends of gasoline to more complicated and more expensive summer blends.
California motorists aren't likely to summon much sympathy for drivers in other states. They are paying an average of $3.835 for a gallon of regular gas, up 7.7 cents from a week earlier. In the past, the state's average had never topped the $3.80 mark before March. And February is usually a month when prices fall.
There are plenty of reasons for the high prices, and lots of reasons to expect a big price surge in the spring, said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst for Oil Price Information Service.
"Early February crude oil prices are higher than they've ever been on similar calendar dates through the years, and the price of crude sets the standard for gasoline prices," Kloza said.
In addition, several refineries have been mothballed in recent months, he said, and some of those refineries "represented the key to a smooth spring transition from winter-to-spring gasoline." The annual change in gasoline formulas is mandated by pollution-fighting regulations.
Some cities, including Los Angeles and New York, already are closing in on $4 a gallon, said Patrick DeHaan, senior petroleum analyst for GasBuddy.com, a website that tracks gasoline prices.
The high cost has inspired considerable disgust among drivers like Stanley Moore, who paid $3.85 a gallon at an Arco station in San Pedro.
Moore, a child-welfare social worker, was on his mobile phone at the gas station Monday, patting pockets for a pen and a scrap of paper to write down a name, until he realized he could just write the name in the grime on the hood of his gray 1999 Nissan Sentra; it was that dirty.
"I used to wash it pretty often, take a little pride in how it looked," said Moore, who thinks he last had it washed shortly after Labor Day. "All that money goes right into the gas tank now. Every year it gets worse."
In other energy news, oil prices remained at elevated levels, rising $2.24 to close at $100.91 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. That's up about 18% from a year earlier. In London trading, oil rose 62 cents to $117.93 a barrel.
I'm hoping that once I wrap up school I can get a job in a city where I can ride my bicycle and/or utilize public transportation most of the time. I love Cleveland, but riding in the winter isn't very fun, and I'm only going two miles a day.
Quote: I'm hoping that once I wrap up school I can get a job in a city where I can ride my bicycle and/or utilize public transportation most of the time. I love Cleveland, but riding in the winter isn't very fun, and I'm only going two miles a day.
YTown...considered a recumbent bicycle?
I have one of those that I used to use every day. (exercise bike)
It started bothering my back when the rest started.
-------------------- Here We Go Brownies! Here We Go! Woof! Woof!
I've been thinking about a motorcycle myself. I drive about 55 miles to Butler Pa everyday. Spend about 400-450 a month in gas. I'm a great driver, the only thing that scares me is the lack of respect bikers get on the road. Seen too many people get killed on those things.
Quote: I've been thinking about a motorcycle myself. I drive about 55 miles to Butler Pa everyday. Spend about 400-450 a month in gas. I'm a great driver, the only thing that scares me is the lack of respect bikers get on the road. Seen too many people get killed on those things.
You fight that by being a VERY, VERY cautious rider. You have to keep track of every car on the road. I have a Harley, that gets 45+ on the highway by the way, and when I'm out there I try to memorize each car by naming them. I'll call one "soccer mom red van", "white BMW" and so on. If you treat each car as if it's trying to run you off the road, you'll be ok. It's a little scary to think about it that way, but you have to.
I've seen a few '09-10 1200cc Sporty's sell on eBay for less than $5,000 recently. That's insane. Those are $10-11,000 bikes with a few hundred miles on them. And those can get low 50 miles per gallon (I have a Dyna Street Bob).
Anyway......try living in or around Chicago. I don't think I've seen anything lower than $3.65 for a looooooong time. I try not to pay attention when I'm filling up....I can't control the prices so I try not to spend much time worrying about it.
I bet its going to be pretty pricey. Lots of folks here in Indiana ride mopeds and scooters, but my understanding is that its due to DUI's not MPG's...
-------------------- “If worms had guns, birds wouldn’t eat ‘em.”
Quote: I've been thinking about a motorcycle myself. I drive about 55 miles to Butler Pa everyday. Spend about 400-450 a month in gas. I'm a great driver, the only thing that scares me is the lack of respect bikers get on the road. Seen too many people get killed on those things.
You fight that by being a VERY, VERY cautious rider. You have to keep track of every car on the road. I have a Harley, that gets 45+ on the highway by the way, and when I'm out there I try to memorize each car by naming them. I'll call one "soccer mom red van", "white BMW" and so on. If you treat each car as if it's trying to run you off the road, you'll be ok. It's a little scary to think about it that way, but you have to.
So true, I always keep an eye on every car around me, and the cars around them when on multi-lane roads (3+ lanes wide). As well as always position myself to either see the driver in their side mirror or be where should they suddenly change to my lane it only means I slow down a little.
The worst is people pulling out from the right, too many on phone not paying attention and look like they are waiting for you to pass only to pull out just as you reach them.
-------------------- Respect the previous generation, we graduated without Google or Wikipedia.
Quote: I'm considering a small motorcycle for the spring/summer. I wish I could ride a bicycle now, because I would. I just can't bend like that and peddle.
aren't motorcycles bad for your back too? (just curious)
-------------------- Logos? We don't need no stinking logos.
Quote: I'm considering a small motorcycle for the spring/summer. I wish I could ride a bicycle now, because I would. I just can't bend like that and peddle.
aren't motorcycles bad for your back too? (just curious)
Some crotch rockets can be do to the forward leaning riding position, but cruisers tend be very upright seated position and with right seat and/or backrest combo, it can be very comfortable.
-------------------- Respect the previous generation, we graduated without Google or Wikipedia.
For cruisers, it depends on the bike, the terrain, the seat, the handlebars, if you have a back support device, how long you're riding and you're back.
A bigger bike will absorb more of the bumps. A better suspension will do the same.
If you're on a smooth flat highway, of course, that helps.
A good seat and the position of the handlebars can really help too. Some guys like 16" ape hanger bars, some don't. Some like a soft seat, some like it hard. Depends on the rider.
On long trips I use a makeshift tour pack with a back support. It really makes all the difference in the world. I can go a long time....one day I rode 8 hours. My dad just bought a back rest for his Kawasaki, he's very excited to try it out this season.
If you're riding to the grocery store, bank or your Aunt Sally's....you're probably fine. If you're riding across country, that is a big deal.
And ultimately, if you're a "back problem" person...you might not do so well. For me, I take some Advil when I'm going on rides longer than 20 miles to ease up the muscles in my neck (from the wind blowing). On longer trips, we take frequent breaks and utilize all the support aids. Most don't believe me when I say this....but my back and butt hurt more after I drive to Ohio in my car than when I ride my bike. The car seat is nice, but you're stuck in one position. On my bike, I can lean forward, lean back, move my legs underneath or behind me.
Quote: Most don't believe me when I say this....but my back and butt hurt more after I drive to Ohio in my car than when I ride my bike. The car seat is nice, but you're stuck in one position. On my bike, I can lean forward, lean back, move my legs underneath or behind me.
I beleive it. I have long legs and long car rides cause my legs to stiffen up and my knees will hurt, making long car rides very uncomfortable without stops. On the bike I can stetch out and adjust more.
Might try the advil thing, as on cold mornings when I ride to work my neck and shoulders are sore from tensing up in the cold.
-------------------- Respect the previous generation, we graduated without Google or Wikipedia.
Quote: good to know. even the cruisers with the back-support don't look like they would be for long periods of time, but that's why I asked. thanks.
Dunno. Most of my trips are rather short, so I wouldn't be going anywhere that would take hours. Most of my trips are 5-10 minutes. I'd have to try it out and make sure.
On an unrelated, but not totally, topic ........
I'm kicking around getting a Sleep Number bed right now ....
I think I might try the 30 day trial. I was down there yesterday checking them out.
I figure it will either help, or join the pile of stuff I have bought to give my back better support while I sleep/make the bed more comfortable. The amount of money I have spent on memory foam and such for my bed is appalling. (not to mention the amount I spent on a Seeley bed that should have been, but wasn't any better than my old Serta)
-------------------- Here We Go Brownies! Here We Go! Woof! Woof!
I bought one of those on the recommendation of fellow dawgs here over the memory foam.
Best money i ever spent. My back still hurts sometimes, but its more of how i end up sleeping....side, stomach, or back. If i stay on my side i wake up pain free.
The sleep number is a no brainer imo...some people need soft...some firm. This covers them all, and enables you to find the right firmness. msg me if you want more info so the thread stays on topic.
-------------------- Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
Man, and I was thinking of buying a Chevy Silverado, lol. I've gotta do math calculations and see how much I'll save in cash with a pickup verses an Outback (love my parent's outback) vs a foreign sedan
Quote: I'm ready to open our reserves and lower prices so folks will do their regular summer things and spend money!
I do seem to recall there being quite a debate over that last time prices spiked.
I think that it's ridiculous that China is drilling under our soil from Cuba while we refuse to drill. Obviously there are other factors at play, but when China has increased their consumption of oil, we could be drilling and trying to somewhat reverse the horrible trade imbalance we have with them, while also increasing the oil supply overall, thus bringing down prices.
Of course, before too long, we may not have any refineries left in the US.
We are refining less oil into other product than at any other time since 2006. We are using fewer US refineries at any time since before 2006. This may not be the only reason gas prices are going through the roof ..... but it is part of the reason.
-------------------- Here We Go Brownies! Here We Go! Woof! Woof!
jk the one thing most people dont think about is that with rising gas costs it also raises the cost of buying things because they have to be transported. So while you the consumer cut back on your driving your paying more for everything you buy. Ok lets get our collective dog pound minds together and create a new source of energy that is affordable and we can then sign all the free agents we want with the profits. :-)
-------------------- If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
We were a net EXPORTER of fuel oil through the first 9 months of last year producing over 750 million barrels of fuel oil and we have so much natural gas that some of the energy companies are pumping it back into the ground or burning it off as the drill for wet gas.
That is pure bs that we are not drilling in this country. And almost everywhere that they are drilling, they are looking to put in pipelines to the gulf coast so that they can refine and export. Kinder Morgan is building a new 6.6 mil barrel storage facility in the Houston Ship Channel for exporting fuel.
BUSINESSNOVEMBER 30, 2011.U.S. Nears Milestone: Net Fuel Exporter . By LIAM PLEVEN And RUSSELL GOLD
U.S. exports of gasoline, diesel and other oil-based fuels are soaring, putting the nation on track to be a net exporter of petroleum products in 2011 for the first time in 62 years.
A combination of booming demand from emerging markets and faltering domestic activity means the U.S. is exporting more fuel than it imports, upending the historical norm.
U.S. exports of gasoline, diesel and other oil-based fuels are soaring, putting the nation on track to be a net exporter of petroleum products in 2011 for the first time in 62 years, Liam Pleven reports on Markets Hub. . According to data released by the U.S. Energy Information Administration on Tuesday, the U.S. sent abroad 753.4 million barrels of everything from gasoline to jet fuel in the first nine months of this year, while it imported 689.4 million barrels.
That the U.S. is shipping out more fuel than it brings in is significant because the nation has for decades been a voracious energy consumer. It took in huge quantities of not only crude oil from the Middle East but also refined fuels from Europe, Latin America and elsewhere to help run its factories and cars.
As recently as 2005, the U.S. imported nearly 900 million barrels more of petroleum products than it exported. Since then the deficit has been steadily shrinking until finally disappearing last fall, and analysts say the country will not lose its "net exporter" tag anytime soon.
"It looks like a trend that could stay in place for the rest of the decade," said Dave Ernsberger, global director of oil at Platts, which tracks energy markets. "The conventional wisdom is that U.S. is this giant black hole sucking in energy from around the world. This changes that dynamic."
Close. So long as the U.S. remains the world's biggest net importer of crude oil, currently taking in nine million barrels per day, it isn't likely to become energy independent anytime soon. Yet its growing presence as an overall exporter of fuels made from crude gives it greater influence in the global energy market.
If the trend toward net exports persists, it could also influence the national political debate over U.S. energy policy, which has been driven primarily by concerns about upheaval in the Middle East over the past decade. The independence of the U.S. from foreign oil sources has long been a lightning-rod issue in Washington, one further inflamed by last year's oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Supporters of off-shore drilling have used the desire for independence to push their cause, setting up a battle with environmental groups and others who prefer a shift away from carbon-based fuels.
U.S. exports of gasoline, diesel and other oil-based fuels are soaring. Above, natural gas is burned off near an oil pump jack in North Dakota in October. . The growth in exports is part of a "transformation of the energy system," says Ed Morse, global head of commodity research at Citigroup Inc. "It's the beginning signs of a process that will continue for the next decade and will point toward energy independence."
The reversal raises the prospect of the U.S. becoming a major provider of various types of energy to the rest of the world, a status that was once virtually unthinkable. The U.S. already exports vast amounts of coal, and companies such as Exxon Mobil Corp. are pursuing or exploring plans to liquefy newly abundant natural gas and send it overseas.
The shift is one of the clearest demonstrations of the diverging fates of the U.S. and emerging market economies. While the U.S. labors under stubbornly high unemployment and sluggish growth, emerging-market economies are growing strongly, bolstering demand for fuel.
.U.S. customers have been pulling back in part because an anemic economic recovery has left millions still looking for work. In August, U.S. drivers burned 7.7% less gasoline than four years earlier, when gasoline usage peaked. Production of ethanol made from corn has also ramped up dramatically in recent years, cutting into the need for other fuels.
Now, "we're not using as much," said James Beck, an analyst at the EIA. "Prior to 2008, basically anything we produced, we used."
But U.S. drivers aren't seeing much benefit in the form of lower prices because refineries on the Gulf Coast are shipping much of their output to places where demand is strong, keeping prices high.
The U.S. was a net exporter of petroleum products in six of the first nine months this year, and the trend accelerated in the third quarter, with September data released Tuesday showing net exports of 919,000 barrels per day, more than any month this year. That indicates to observers that this year will be the U.S.'s first as a net exporter since 1949, when the U.S. economy was ramping up rapidly after World War II.
Mexico and Brazil were major consumers of U.S. exports, according to the September data, while the Netherlands—home to key European ports —and Singapore also were significant net importers.
Gasoline and low-sulfur diesel continued to be among the biggest lures for foreign customers, as was petroleum coke, which is used to make steel. Those are among the many products that are thrown off in the process of refining crude oil.
The growing exports have made the U.S. a pivotal part of the supply chain. In 2006, the U.S. was a net importer of petroleum products from Brazil, but last year it sent a net 106,000 barrels a day.
Argentina and Peru are now net importers from the U.S. For the next year or two, "the economies in Latin America will be growing faster than in the U.S. and the trend of increasing exports should continue," says Daniel Vizel, U.S. head of oil trading for Macquarie Group Ltd.
Singapore's net imports from the U.S. roughly quadrupled in the past five years, while Mexico's rose by about two-thirds. Mexico, in particular, is having trouble keeping pace with gasoline demand and buys about 60% of gasoline exports from the U.S.
The figures illustrate the impact of the significant increase in domestic production thanks to new sources of oil coming from North Dakota and Texas. North Dakota's oil production of 424,000 barrels per day in July was up 86% over the same period in 2009.
Growing domestic output means refineries in the U.S. are making more fuel than the local market needs. That has given those on the U.S. Gulf Coast added incentive to look for customers abroad.
Also adding to the U.S. exporting firepower: Refineries are more efficient, giving them an edge over older facilities in Europe. New drilling methods are boosting U.S. oil production, helping ensure steady supplies of raw material for refiners to process.
The U.S. could expand its export trade further next year. Motiva Enterprises LLC, a joint venture between Shell and Saudi Arabian Oil Co., is expected to finish work next year on a refinery expansion in Port Arthur, Texas, which would double the facility's capacity and make it the largest in the U.S. Kinder Morgan Energy Partners LP and TransMontaigne Partners LP plan to build a $400 million terminal on the Houston ship channel.
For decades through World War II, the U.S. was a net exporter of petroleum products, with sales reaching a high of 126 million barrels in 1944. The country then became a net importer in 1950, and grew increasingly dependent on foreign supply in the 1960s. Net imports peaked just above a billion barrels in 1973, the year domestic oil prices spiked amid the Arab oil embargo. After falling off in the 1980s and 1990s, net imports spiked again in the middle of the last decade before tapering recently.
To be sure, the balance could shift back relatively quickly. If the U.S. economy were to rebound sharply, domestic need for fuels refined from crude oil could also shoot back up, which could increase crude import demand. In addition, U.S. refineries could lose customers if foreign economies falter, sending the U.S back to being a net importer.
Meanwhile, export demand is boosting corporate profits for oil majors, such as Exxon and Royal Dutch Shell PLC, and major U.S. refining firms, such as Valero Energy Corp. and Marathon Petroleum Corp.
"Unless there is a recession around the world, we're going to be exporting for quite some time," says Mike Loya, head of Americas for Swiss energy-trading firm Vitol Group, which moves more than five million barrels of crude oil and petroleum products every day.
Yeah. We're definitely drilling. Just yesterday heard that little Jackson, Michigan is getting drilled out in the country about five miles from the madre's house. Surprising. And I don't get surprised often.
-------------------- Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Quote: good to know. even the cruisers with the back-support don't look like they would be for long periods of time, but that's why I asked. thanks.
Dunno. Most of my trips are rather short, so I wouldn't be going anywhere that would take hours. Most of my trips are 5-10 minutes. I'd have to try it out and make sure.
On an unrelated, but not totally, topic ........
I'm kicking around getting a Sleep Number bed right now ....
I think I might try the 30 day trial. I was down there yesterday checking them out.
I figure it will either help, or join the pile of stuff I have bought to give my back better support while I sleep/make the bed more comfortable. The amount of money I have spent on memory foam and such for my bed is appalling. (not to mention the amount I spent on a Seeley bed that should have been, but wasn't any better than my old Serta)
We have one, the only negative I have found so far is during the winter when our house temperature varyies greatly (10+ degrees night to day) the bed, like car tires, will change it's pressure, and I need to remember to check/adjust it or I will wake up sore. But this may vary depnding on the pump you get too so who knows, we went with the middle model (3000 series I think)
-------------------- Respect the previous generation, we graduated without Google or Wikipedia.
Quote: jk the one thing most people dont think about is that with rising gas costs it also raises the cost of buying things because they have to be transported. So while you the consumer cut back on your driving your paying more for everything you buy.
Good point, our government taxes the heck out of Diesel Fuel because voters don't directly see that. But it definitely raises the cost of all goods moved by trucks.
While most goods are moved by ships (who, I'm not sure if they pay taxed fuel or not when they're buying Diesel, but they don't use the same Diesel as trucks I don't think), but eventually everything is generally put into a truck.
So by taxing diesel, everyone pays for it. But nobody knows, because generally you only see the fee added to your cost unless you're the one actually shipping the product
Quote: I remember the days when my dad would complain cause it went over 1.75...
The days when I could fill my motorcycle (2.5 gllon tank) for under a 5...
Oh those were the days....
*looks at bicycle prices*
I remember when $5 would darn near fill up the tank. I'd tell the attendant to give me $4 worth because I wanted that buck in the pocket...a 16oz draft fishbowl of beer was .25 cents down at the local pub.
Seriously.
-------------------- If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
LOL....no, not quite, but I do remember when a buck was a buck.
As the oldest, I was entrusted with the money. My sister was eleven months younger than I was, and the two other siblings a number of years younger, but that's another story.....anyway, for $1 Sissy and I could go to the Saturday afternoon movie at Fairview Theater for .25 cents each. The remaining .50 cents would buy each of us a box of popcorn, a candy bar, and a Coke.
The Coke cost the nickle, the others a dime each.
No BS here...that's what it cost.
-------------------- If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Like the scene in "The Help" when the maids get like 40$ and act as if they won the lottery, I had to explain it to my brother, that back then, that WAS winning the lottery...
-------------------- Afghanistan sucks, if you weren't aware...
Reminds of the lines from Baz Luhrmann "everyones free to wear sunscreen" song.
"Accept certain inalienable truths, prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old, and when you do you’ll fantasize that when you were young prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders. "
-------------------- It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
Quote: $4 to $5 gas....I'm sure glad that "War for Oil" worked out for us.
You are missing the big picture, it's good because of our investment in things other than oil, 40 years from now we will have solar/wind/cow poop powered vehicles and everything will be great.
-------------------- To all the ladies... peace and humptiness forever.
Quote: I remember the days when my dad would complain cause it went over 1.75...
The days when I could fill my motorcycle (2.5 gllon tank) for under a 5...
Oh those were the days....
*looks at bicycle prices*
I remember when $5 would darn near fill up the tank. I'd tell the attendant to give me $4 worth because I wanted that buck in the pocket...a 16oz draft fishbowl of beer was .25 cents down at the local pub.
Seriously.
Attendant?
I wish I could have experienced this. My dad tells me about when they used to pump your gas, give your windshield a shine, and check your tire pressure for no extra charge. I wish! I can't believe that was the way things were once.
Quote: I remember the days when my dad would complain cause it went over 1.75...
The days when I could fill my motorcycle (2.5 gllon tank) for under a 5...
Oh those were the days....
*looks at bicycle prices*
I remember when $5 would darn near fill up the tank. I'd tell the attendant to give me $4 worth because I wanted that buck in the pocket...a 16oz draft fishbowl of beer was .25 cents down at the local pub.
Seriously.
Attendant?
I wish I could have experienced this. My dad tells me about when they used to pump your gas, give your windshield a shine, and check your tire pressure for no extra charge. I wish! I can't believe that was the way things were once.
Quote: I remember the days when my dad would complain cause it went over 1.75...
The days when I could fill my motorcycle (2.5 gllon tank) for under a 5...
Oh those were the days....
*looks at bicycle prices*
I remember when $5 would darn near fill up the tank. I'd tell the attendant to give me $4 worth because I wanted that buck in the pocket...a 16oz draft fishbowl of beer was .25 cents down at the local pub.
Seriously.
Attendant?
I wish I could have experienced this. My dad tells me about when they used to pump your gas, give your windshield a shine, and check your tire pressure for no extra charge. I wish! I can't believe that was the way things were once.
It was kind of like this:
-------------------- It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
Quote: I remember the days when my dad would complain cause it went over 1.75...
The days when I could fill my motorcycle (2.5 gllon tank) for under a 5...
Oh those were the days....
*looks at bicycle prices*
I remember when $5 would darn near fill up the tank. I'd tell the attendant to give me $4 worth because I wanted that buck in the pocket...a 16oz draft fishbowl of beer was .25 cents down at the local pub.
Seriously.
Attendant?
I wish I could have experienced this. My dad tells me about when they used to pump your gas, give your windshield a shine, and check your tire pressure for no extra charge. I wish! I can't believe that was the way things were once.
There are still some of those stations scattered around, I've seen a couple in PA, i always avoid them though, and it's not like theyre that much higher in price (if at all)
Theres just something weird about someone else pumping gas for me while I sit in my car... I dunno what it is..
-------------------- Afghanistan sucks, if you weren't aware...
I think that the free full service kinda started to disappear right around the time we moved back to Ohio when I was 9-10 or so. That would have been about 72, 73ish .....
It would have been so nice driving into a gas station, and getting the full service treatment.I just missed the whole full service treatment.
-------------------- Here We Go Brownies! Here We Go! Woof! Woof!
Quote: Yep. It is a law there that gas stations must be full service. You cannot pump your own gas there.
Having been there recently, that is indeed correct. Unlike the attendants in the past, this is usually some shady looking character who isn't there to clean your windows and check the oil.
-------------------- If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I still say somebody could make a nice living running a full service station in Ohio. Charge 10 cents per gallon more (hell the price goes up and down by 10 to 25 cents a day anyway) They could check your oil and fluids, tire pressure and pump your gas, and grab your smokes, beer, chips, diet coke lottery tickets, or whatever else you were going to pick up while you were there, while you sit in your nice warm car and avoid the 20 degree weather, wind, snow, and rain.
-------------------- I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
I predicted over a year ago that gas prices would go up in 2012.
In July 2008, gas prices were 4.12 p/g..by election day (Nov 2008) gas prices had dropped by $2.00 per gal.
Within days of Obama taking office, gas prices began to rise, going up $1.00 per gal by June of 2009, adding to the worst recession in America's history. It was like levying a $1.00 per gal tax on the American people at the worst possible time..with Americans struggling with the worst recession in American history.
As the economy began to show signs of recovering in late 2010 and early 2011, gas prices again spiked up another $1.00 per gal, peaking at approx $3.90 per gal by May 1, 2011. Again, acting as a tax levied on the American people by the petroleum companies.
Now that the economy is beginning to pull out of the worst recession in American history, why shouldn't the American people expect the Petroleum industry to add another $1.00 per gal tax on them?
It is no secret that the petroleum industry is not happy with a Democrat in the White House and since they have the ability to manipulate petroleum/gas prices, why wouldn't they do all they can to benefit those who support the oil industry?
Also, the Obama budget calls for an end to the billions in tax welfare the oil industry has enjoyed for years, even though petroleum companies are among the most profitable in the world.
Republicans oppose the end to the billions in corporate welfare for the oil and gas companies. Anyone who can't see the link between the petroleum industry's manipulation of their markets and American politics is either blind or so partisan they can't admit to the truth.
Like I said, I predicted high gas prices for election year...over a year ago.
Quote: I still say somebody could make a nice living running a full service station in Ohio. Charge 10 cents per gallon more (hell the price goes up and down by 10 to 25 cents a day anyway) They could check your oil and fluids, tire pressure and pump your gas, and grab your smokes, beer, chips, diet coke lottery tickets, or whatever else you were going to pick up while you were there, while you sit in your nice warm car and avoid the 20 degree weather, wind, snow, and rain.
When I worked at Shell in North Olmsted in the late 80's we had full service pumps. They were .10 more per gallon then, and we cleaned the window and asked if they wanted us to check the oil (especially since by then most cars had hood releases inside), and we offered the check the tires with a guage, but if they needed air they had to pull over to the airpump which wasn't by the fuel pumps.
It was just the 2 farthest pumps that had it the rest were self-serve, but it kept us busy. Mostly elderly folks and moms with carloads of kids, but during the colder winter days it could be anybody. =)
The elderly would tip a buck or 2 when you checked their oil, or it was an exceptionally cold nasty day.
-------------------- Respect the previous generation, we graduated without Google or Wikipedia.
Quote: My dad tells me about when they used to pump your gas, give your windshield a shine, and check your tire pressure for no extra charge.
One of my first jobs was at SOHIO Gas Station and I was the guy in the blue jumpsuit that pumped gas, washed windows, checked oil and tire pressure and got the driver at can of soda . My daughter used to laugh at pictures of me in my uniform ( and the mullet I was sporting ) and said there was " NO WAY " she would have done that job.
Quote: Like I said, I predicted high gas prices for election year...over a year ago.
Wasn't 2008 an election year with a Republican in office? I believe it was, yet the 10 year high for gas prices was in August of '08.. now why would they do that?
Quote: Within days of Obama taking office, gas prices began to rise, going up $1.00 per gal by June of 2009,
Why do you forget to mention that they were rising from about a 10 year low of $1.61? Of course they were going to go up.. that's what happens when commodity prices drop 70% in 2 months, they start back up...
Gas prices are rising again after going down from April through December.. when they typically go UP during the summer.. why did they do that?
mac, did you know that oil prices haven't risen nearly as sharply as other things, like cotton, silver, corn, coffee and rubber?
Did you know that Exxon controls less than 1% of the worlds oil supply? Pretty hard to manipulate prices when you control a very small percentage of the market.... the middle east and south america control over 90%.. and if I remember correctly, Iran and Hugo Chavez are not big fans of George Bush.
Did you know that oil and gas has a much lower profit margin than tobacco, pharmaceuticals, computers, general manufacturing?
Did you know that Exxon has paid more in US federal taxes over the last 5 years than it has made in the United States because it makes most of its money from other countries?
-------------------- To all the ladies... peace and humptiness forever.
I don't know if he knows any of that stuff. I would also bet he doesn't know that gas companies, oil refineries, etc - historically make about 10% in profit. Regardless of WHO is in office.
I would also guess he thinks that's too much. Further, I would guess that wherever he works, they make much more than 10% in profit - but that wouldn't matter to him.
One other thing - if someone is a union member, or a mutual fund owner, or vested in ANY retirement program at all - whether they know it or not - they ARE invested in energy/gas/oil.
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face - this is a perfect example.
Plus - without a profit, those big evil gas companies lay people off.
It is SO ironic that people get upset over companies making a profit, and gripe about it, and want to tax them to death to "show them". Then, they find out those companies pay employees, benefits, retirements, etc.
Yet, despite that - they are in favor of giving the gov't. more money..............just as long as it's someone else's money.
Well, ma. If you want to play that game. Democrats campaigned and won a super-majority of Congress and the Presidency (2006-2008) by telling the American youths that 4.8% unemployment was unacceptable, $1.75 per gallon gasoline made Bush's oil buddies richer, and $4 trillion debt increase in 8 years was unpatirotic.
Now they tell them 9% unemployment is the new normal, $4.00 per gallon gasoline is good for the economy, and $6 trillion debt increase in 4 years is not enough.
And the liberals are now saying the new "American Dream" is renting instead of owning your own home.
-------------------- Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does.
Quote: I'm considering a small motorcycle for the spring/summer. I wish I could ride a bicycle now, because I would. I just can't bend like that and peddle.
Would you consider a recumbant bike? They look kina funky, but they have advantages over conventional bikes. Plus, you'll get in better shape, and spend ZERO on gas....
lol ahh the good ol days... I too used to work as an attendent at a gas station but in Houston Texas. Had a steady stream of loyal customers that only would come to my pumps. As someone said would get usually $1 tip for checking fluids and Tire pressure, grab them a soda or smokes etc. It really wasnt a bad gig back in the day for a starter job.
A friend of mine worked for I think it was called Red Head in North Olmsted between dover and porter on Lorain back in the late 70's but there are now some cobwebbs on those memories.
-------------------- If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
I can't believe that someone hasn't latched onto free full service as a marketing tool.
Imagine a gas station where you could pull up and not have to get out of your car. Maybe a drive thru type operation, with the traditional drive thru where people could buy their goodies, pay for their gas, then pull up to the pumps and an attendant pumps your gas for you.
However, I don't know if the profit margin is big enough on the gas side to make it worthwhile. I have heard from people I know that stations make very little on gas anymore ..... and that it's all the other stuff that really makes them money.
-------------------- Here We Go Brownies! Here We Go! Woof! Woof!
I'm old enough to remember when somebody else pumped your gas, and when somebody else at a diner or fast food place made your salad and poured your drink and when somebody else carried a ladies groceries to the car... now I pump my own gas, pour my own soda, make my own salad at the salad bar, carry my own food, clean up my own table, my wife carries her own groceries..... they have shifted all of the burden of service onto me and this is supposed to be progress.
-------------------- To all the ladies... peace and humptiness forever.
We switched to the reusable bags, and that seems to help, along with my unloading of the cart boxed and heavy goods first, fragile softer goods last, so hopefully they bag in the order they scan.
The plastic bags were horrible for any style of packing.
-------------------- Respect the previous generation, we graduated without Google or Wikipedia.
Quote: We switched to the reusable bags, and that seems to help, along with my unloading of the cart boxed and heavy goods first, fragile softer goods last, so hopefully they bag in the order they scan.
The plastic bags were horrible for any style of packing.
LOL I do the same thing unload the cart in an order that I know it will get bagged correctly. Back about a year ago I went off on a person for putting cleaning items and pesticides in a bag with fresh meat. Bet he never did that again.
-------------------- If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
I load everything in the buggy the way I want it bagged (heavy stuff in the front or on the bottom of the buggy, all cleaning products together, all frozen and refrigerated stuff together, all products I don't want smashed together chips, bread, buns, eggs) I also put the bags in the buggy myself so the goofs don't screw things up there either.
-------------------- I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
Thought this was a little interesting: ------------------ Did we learn anything from last years speculation bubble when oil reached $114 a barrel based on the fear that the Arab Spring would disrupt oil supplies? I just read an article that blames Iran and China for our current increase in gas prices. Maybe the media should take a little of the blame.
The other night on the national news it was a big story how Iran had cut off oil to England and France. The story also disussed how high gas prices have gone up and how high they might go. They didn't bother telling the national audience that the embargo slated to start on July 1st was going to do the same thing anyway. Nor did they bother to tell us that England only imported 1% and France 3% of there oil from Iran and that their two major oil companies BP (NYSE: BP) in England and Total (NYSE: TOT) in France already stopped importing from them! This latest speculation bubble is based on all the saber rattling being done about disrupting the oil flow in the Gulf if Iran's nuclear sites are bombed.
There is no shortage of oil. There is no disruption in supply. This is an election year where the incumbent president wants to get re-elected badly. The only way Israel can bomb anything in Iran is if they have access to the United States refueling air tankers. Now tell me do you think that before an election when every 25 cent increase in gasoline sucks out 35 billion dollars out of discretionary spending that anything is going to happen before the election?
It is simple. Do your investment research and when everyone is running around screaming the sky is falling select an oil drilling company like Seadrill (NYSE: SDRL) trading near its 52 week high with a p/e of 10 that has the capabilities to drill at deeper ocean depths than it's competitors. Or maybe an oil service company like Halliburton (NYSE: HAL) that is trading at $38 off its 52 week high of $57 with a p/e of about 12 with growth increase expected from its international operations. So instead of complaining about the rising cost of oil invest in companies that will help your wealth grow.
Also, one of the main reasons that gasoline is so expensive is because we lack refinery capacity, so we wind up importing refined product vs. crude. We have plenty of oil here at home, especially when combined with oil from Canada and Mexico.
Actually, I think that we should just annex Mexico anyway. What would be the difference? The border is wide open anyway, and this was we would be able to get their resources, and tax their citizens. lol
-------------------- Here We Go Brownies! Here We Go! Woof! Woof!
Oil is something I've researched extensively since the spike in '08. Chalk it up to general curiosity, but it didn't seem logical that oil companies were "levying a tax" for any type of gain.
My conclusion has become this: the main reasons we are where we are with gas prices are twofold. Inflation and supply/demand.
Dollars are backed by nothing...which hopefully we all know. However oil is priced in dollars on a world market...if the fed starts pumping out a buncha money...QE anyone? If "inflation" numbers dont include energy it makes it seem like we're paying more. The nominal price goes up quick, but the real price goes up in check with my next point...
Demand has skyrocketed in SE Asia (mostly China), while supplies remain flat. Unless we produce all 16 million barrels we consume ourselves, we're stuck competing for the same pool. Total liquid supply has stayed within 85-90mbpd since 2005...yet real demand has increased. Prices rise to force demand to stay in line with supply.
The other option we have with supply/demand is obviously to increase supply. Somewhat feasible...probably to ~95mbpd...deep water is expensive, tarsands are slow, tight oil is capital intense, and also not as fast as the conventional fields of the past 100 years. Those fields are declining at roughly 2-3% a year. So regardless of how much we drill, the price would go up some. We have oceans of oil, it's the cost of production that matters. I could drill a hole into the Utica 7000 feet under my feet and get some oil out, but it's not worth what it'd cost me to get it...yet.
This is really simple stuff...I think most of y'all get that. I'm fairly confident it's not some big oil/government conspiracy. I do think the government screws us all by not including food or energy in their inflation stats...I mean really what do we all need the most? If we could point to a 9-12% inflation rate while talking to the boss about a raise, it makes our bargaining position stronger than if they can say it's only 3-5%.
JMHramblings...hope I made sense, and didn't insult anyone lol It really is simple once you take an objective look at it.
I understand why they don't include energy in the inflation rate. you basically would be double-counting it in inflation since energy increases cause the inflation in other areas (inflating inflation as it be)
i don't know why food costs are not counted other than trying to deflate inflation figures. there may be a reason though.
-------------------- Logos? We don't need no stinking logos.
It SHOULD be double counted. Think about it. It costs me more to fill up at $3.79/gallon than $1.79 plus it makes everything else go up. It IS a double hit when energy costs go up, and should be counted accordingly.
We'll see what oil and gas prices do now that the dollar is rallying, and gold prices are dropping a bit. (like $70 off in the past week if I heard correctly)
If this video is exactly true, then we're in really deep doo doo ...... because gas was $1.75/gallon or so when Obama took office, and gold was around $925/ounce then. Today it's around $1700, less than double, yet gas prices are more than double the prices we saw then. That would mean that the value if our currency is devaluing more rapidly ..... wouldn't it?
I do agree that monetary policy is also to blame though, and have said that we should stop printing money out of thin air. That really is what deficit spending is ..... it's borrowing ... but it's also just printing money out of nothing to meet the new bills when they come due. The US government doesn't have to sell bonds, for example, at a 1-1 ratio against new debt before they can spend that money. Every "new" dollar added to the supply devalues every other dollar, and lessens its value against other currencies.
One big thing that irritates the crap out of me is that the federal government maintains empty office buildings for no other purpose than to keep people employed guarding, cleaning, and maintaining them. The US government owns and/or manages something like 900,000 buildings/properties in the US, and almost 10% of them are either not used, or are under-used. That's ridiculous. Sell them off for pennies on the dollar, stop having to take care of them, and start allowing local government the ability to collect taxes on them.
Anyway .... we're screwed, and I'm glad I don;t have kids who I will be dumping this mess on.
-------------------- Here We Go Brownies! Here We Go! Woof! Woof!
Keystone Oil Pipeline Seen Raising Gas Prices in Midwest: Energy
By Bradley Olson - Feb 29, 2012 7:00 PM ET .
.. TransCanada Corp. (TRP)’s Keystone XL oil pipeline, a project backers including Republican Presidential candidate Rick Santorum say will create cheaper U.S. gasoline, instead risks raising prices as much as 20 cents a gallon in the Midwest, Great Plains and Rocky Mountains.
The line would create a new way to carry Canadian imports outside the Midwest and reduce an oil surplus that’s depressing prices in the central U.S. Spot gasoline was 55 cents cheaper in Chicago than in New York on June 1, the second-highest ever. Nationwide, retail gasoline set its highest February average at $3.55 a gallon, data compiled by Bloomberg show.
Trans-Alaska Pipeline carries crude oil from Prudoe Bay on Arctic Ocean south to port of Valdez on Gulf of Alaska. If constructed, TransCanada Corp.’s Keystone XL oil pipeline would move oil from landlocked Alberta to the Texas Gulf Coast. Photographer: Thomas Kitchin & Victoria Hurst
Philip Verleger, principal of PK Verleger LLC. said “the Canadian plan was to use their market power to raise prices in the United States and get more money from consumers.” Photographer: Melissa Golden/Bloomberg . The purpose of the $7.6 billion Keystone is to move 830,000 barrels of oil a day from landlocked Alberta to the Texas Gulf Coast, obtaining new customers and a higher price for heavy Canadian crude, Canadian regulators said in a 2010 report. The oil sold for $23.38 less per barrel in 2011 compared with heavy grades of Mexican crude, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
“The Canadian plan was to use their market power to raise prices in the United States (UNG) and get more money from consumers,” Philip Verleger, founder of Colorado-based energy consulting firm PK Verleger LLC, said in an interview. Prices may gain 10 to 20 cents in central states, he said.
Producers including Exxon Mobil Corp. (XOM), Suncor Energy Inc. (SU) and Cenovus Energy Inc. (CVE) may reap as much as $4 billion more in annual revenue if prices rise as expected following the construction of the 1,661-mile (2,673-kilometer) Keystone XL conduit, the 2010 report says.
Such a change would erase the cost advantage for refiners such as Marathon Petroleum Corp. (MPC) and HollyFrontier Corp. (HFC), whose Midwest plants profited on cheaper oil supply.
Political Touchstones
The Keystone pipeline has generated a political debate before the U.S. November presidential election.
Republicans including presidential candidates Santorum, Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich have criticized President Barack Obama’s Jan. 18 rejection of Keystone XL after Nebraskans raised concerns about the pipeline polluting their groundwater.
The three candidates and U.S. House Speaker John Boehner have said that approving Keystone, eliminating environmental regulations of hydraulic fracturing, known as fracking, and opening up new areas for drilling would lower the cost of gasoline for American consumers.
Clinton Backs Pipeline
Former President Bill Clinton backed construction of Keystone yesterday in comments at a Washington-area energy conference. As long as the pipeline avoids environmentally sensitive land, “the extra cost of running it is infinitesimal compared to the revenues” the pipeline could produce, he said.
Oil supply concerns have grown as the U.S. and Europe tightened sanctions on Iran, pushing U.S. crude prices for future delivery to $109.77 on Feb. 24, the highest in 9 months, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
TransCanada said Feb. 27 it would reapply for a permit to build Keystone and proceed separately with a $2.3 billion segment of the pipeline that will carry crude from the storage hub at Cushing, Oklahoma, to the Texas coast.
Oil flowing through the Oklahoma-to-Texas segment of the Keystone pipeline would help remove excess supply in the Midwest and bring cheaper crude to refiners on the Gulf Coast, TransCanada Chief Executive Officer Russ Girling said in a telephone interview after the announcement.
“It will help to reduce pressure on gasoline prices,” he said.
Declines Offset Increases
As more crude flows to markets such as the Gulf Coast, prices should decline there and balance out increases seen in other places, Stephen Schork, president of the Schork Group industry consultants in Villanova, Pennsylvania, said in a telephone interview.
“Bringing these barrels to the Gulf would certainly have a dampening impact,” Schork said. “Getting more high quality, cheap oil to the market is the direction we need to go to see lower gasoline prices.”
Keystone XL might lower the average cost of gasoline across the U.S. by up to 4 cents a gallon, Ray Perryman, a consultant hired by TransCanada to assess the economic impact of the project, said in an e-mail.
The net impact of Keystone XL on gasoline prices would be minimal, said Perryman, whose research has been cited by TransCanada to back up claims on potential job growth and market impacts from the pipeline.
Consumers in Colorado and Wyoming currently pay less for gasoline than anywhere in the nation because of the supply glut in the Rocky Mountains caused by stranded Canadian imports and growing oil production from onshore fields. Denver’s average price of $3.13 a gallon today was 43 cents lower, or 12 percent, than Houston’s $3.56 average, according to AAA.
Charging More
Canadian producers will be able to charge more for their oil after Keystone XL is built, boosting revenues by $2 billion to $3.9 billion, Canada’s National Energy (TAQA) Board said in the 2010 report approving of TransCanada’s pipeline plan.
The discount on Canadian crude “should be avoided in the future” if the pipeline were built, according to the report.
Completion of the entire pipeline would raise prices at the pump in the Midwest and Rocky Mountains 10 to 20 cents a gallon, Verleger, the Colorado consultant, said in an e-mail message.
The higher crude prices also would erase the discount enjoyed by cities including Chicago, Cheyenne and Denver, Verleger said.
Gasoline Prices
Retail gasoline in Chicago today averaged $3.91 a gallon, 13 cents lower than the $4.04 New York price and more than double the 6-cent difference between the two cities a year ago, according to AAA. The average gasoline price of $2.99 a gallon in Cheyenne, Wyoming is the same as a year ago and the price in Minneapolis is $3.65, according to AAA data.
Canada exported 66 percent of its total crude production in 2010, almost all of which went to U.S. markets, according to the C.D. Howe Institute, an Ottowa-based think tank. The biggest pipeline systems moving crude southward include Enbridge Inc. (ENB)’s mainline system and TransCanada’s first Keystone line, both of which transport oil to refineries in the Midwest, including in Wisconsin and Illinois.
I think the problem is certainly the money supply.
The real problem is there are other problems too, and it all gets muddied. Other countries are using more fuel. Oil costs iirc have went up for finding and getting it. Refineries are old and outdated in some states, and can only process certain types of oil.
From what that video says, we have plenty of oil...so that should drive prices down, instead the oil companies sell it overseas. I can't even argue with that, they have a right to sell their product where they want for a better price.
Then there is this pipeline. The oil is getting sold somewhere...the oil is getting refined somewhere. It should be sent to the closest place which is the US. That would be the best for us, but again, there is plenty of oil. There would be enough gasoline refined too, but the excesses will be sold to the highest bidder negating any real savings.
From what I have read about Austrian economics and what the federal reserve does with money, it delays the cost increases, and confuses the issue. Speculators can be blamed....rich companies...shortages....you name it.
When you look at the price of gold, it was set at 35 dollars an ounce in 1971. Now its approaching 2000 dollars. Its not the supply of gold that has changed, its what is buying it (dollars)
Those empty buildings you mentioned just prove further that the federal government is inefficient. Add to that a printing press, to do whatever they want and you have the problems that we are facing today. Its a big mess.
-------------------- Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
There is a gas supply issue as well. The last refinery in the US was built 35 years ago. Since then, others closed down (10+ in California) while the demand increased. Now, people don't want more built and some of them are environmental activists that would rather everyone live the way they do and bike/walk everywhere.
--------------------
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Kinda sorta. I don't disagree that some of the refineries are outdated. Read an article the other day that the East coast refineries can only refine certain types of oil. The newer ones in the west can refine more types of oil.
The problem is world-wide demand...check out the following article. We produce more gasoline than we are using. In the past more supply would have caused prices to drop. These companies are finding better prices overseas, thus keeping the price of gasoline high for all of us.
Quote: But I thought High Gas Prices were Obama's fault?
Well, he has seen one refinery shut down, has refused to allow anyone to build new ones anywhere, has stalled drilling permits that were already approved, and so on.
That being said ..... Obama is probably as much to blame as Bush was ....... and obviously, the Democrats said that Bush was to blame, so now Obama much be as well.
-------------------- Here We Go Brownies! Here We Go! Woof! Woof!
Republican / Tea Party rhetoric... Obama is evil, blah blah blah. Looking at the candidates in the Republican field (as an Independent), I'd say he's going to be the evil emperor for four more years.
Oil/gas is high for one reason... greed.
-------------------- Reserved for upcoming opinions on Banner, and the new staff.
No matter how many times we post the chart showing the breakdown of gasoline refinement costs, people still think the president control the costs.
It's supply and demand and investors that determine the cost.
Many point to the record profits of oil companies as proof that their ripping us off, but fail to understand that .03 profit on $1/gal gasoline equates to .12 profit on $4/gal gasoline. They seem to expect that companies work on a fixed profit price versus a markup or margin system. Add that usage is up and you have increased profits.
Reality doesn't fit their argument, so it's easier to blame the President and big oil.
-------------------- Respect the previous generation, we graduated without Google or Wikipedia.
Quote: But Fox News has Gas Prices as one of their BULLET POINTS...
So it must be true!
It is true. Extremely high gas prices will work against the president, no matter who he is, or whether he has anything to do with it. This should be a bullet point in everyone's analysis.
Sometimes I wish everyone would take a step back from all the politics. Both parties have good points, and both parties have bad points. As long as everyone keeps arguing then the issue never really gets looked at.
Have republicans done some stupid crap....sure. Have Democrats done some stupid crap....sure.
Is there more demand for oil and gasoline...yep. Are some of our refineries out of date....yep. Does the EPA suck...yes again.
The cold hard facts of the matter are the national debt, the constant deficit spending adding to the debt, and the devaluing of the dollar.
All of those things above cause increases in prices. The endless printing of money to pay for all this ridiculous spending decreases the value of the dollar.
So basically we are getting it from both ends.
Both parties...republican...democrat...bush...obama....they all spent recklessly.
No where....not any one of you could honestly say that you could run your personal finances like the federal government does. Counterfeiting is illegal for us, and thats the only way we could pull it off.
Yet the federal reserve enables this stupid stuff to continue, and we bicker about bush and obama. Maybe it's the sea cows, or Tim Couch's fault too.
At some point 'We the People' need to take a step back, and wake up. Our children, us, and our parents are screwed. How far down does our standard of living have to go?
This isn't a political thing....its a money thing.
-------------------- Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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