RememberMuni
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 23 2006
Posts: 3258
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I know Cubs fans show up no matter what. - Maybe even lump Red Sox fans into that mix, but that's it. - How does that prove that Indians fans are the most fairweather in baseball?
Ouch, ooooooh, armph, umph, ooooh, ohhh ouch, ouch, ooooh
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Forward, Forward, Forward, never back, Always Forward!
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Spergon FTWynn
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 8938
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
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cub fans have not always filled up wrigley, they had some serious problems in the past with attendance (see lee elia's famous rant)
it has now become kind of a tourist trap/place to be. i know quite a few cub fans who get pretty annoyed with the wrigley field being nothing more than a giant beer garden...
i think the one city that should get credit is st louis, they have easily the best and most loyal fanbase in baseball, those people live for baseball in that town.
bigger cities are going to have less problems with attendance, due to the fact that they are bigger in population, but this country is all about the nfl, and in the nfl a city like green bay can be on an even playing field with a place like new york, or even their rival chicago.
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BEAST
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BuckDawg1946
Dawg Talker
Reged: Jul 03 2007
Posts: 2184
Loc: Grandview, O to the H
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Quote:
Cleveland "baseball" fans are the most fair weather fans in the country.
Thebigbaddawg might need to research the ties Cleveland has to its baseball team.
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GMdawg
Legend
Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 13248
Loc: ohio
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Go Browns
Go Tribe
Go Cavs
Thank God we have all three teams, and all three sports to watch in Cleveland.
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I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Hooper
All Pro
Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 658
Loc: Planet Earth
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The Cubs & Redsox have over 1 million fans a year that are tourist. Just there to see the ballpark not the teams on the field.
Go Monsters Just 3 pts out of the last playoff spot.
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OoooRahJoice
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 30 2006
Posts: 9631
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Quote:
Quote:
And I don't care how you react. Cleveland "baseball" fans are the most fair weather fans in the country. That's not meant to be a zinger, it's the truth.
To be honest with you I could care less about baseball. I hardly watched even when the Indians were good. So if that makes me a bandwagoner sue me 
I need a ticket on that wagon too,....
I can handle being "called" bandwagon. But there is no proof of that. I watch and listen when I can, at a minimum, make sure I know yesterday's score,...don't treat it any differently than I do when they're "winning." It's all about time and money. Just because I don't live and breathe it 24/7 doesn't "make" me bandwagon, or less an Indian fan of any level.
Nobody complains when I take a few months off from buying Budweiser cuz it got a little skanky.
Turning your head when something stinks is normal human function.
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Ammo
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 9469
Loc: Chesterland, OH
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Quote:
Quote:
Just so I can understand this better, back when the Dick Jacobs owned the team, how did the people of Cleveland respond with attendance?
I ask because Dick Jacobs put a good product on the field. - How did the people of Cleveland respond when their ownership actually cared?
Look, in 2007, when we ended up one game from the World Series, we ranked 21st in attendance. Dick Jacobs was a good owner, but those sellouts of the 1990s were a result of several advantages. The Browns weren't in town and the Cavs were irrelevant, so the Indians weren't competing with anyone for entertainment dollars. The local economy was stronger back then, so more people were able to go to the ballgame.
2007 proves that this isn't all on the Dolans; there was a very good product on the field that year.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2007
In 2007, attendance rose near the end of the year. Especially after we traded for Kenny Lofton, it showed that we were serious about contending.
2008, attendance was actually UP for the first month of the season compared to 2007, but the Indians sucked, so attendance dwindled.
I can promise, PROMISE you that come June, if the Indians had the same record as they did in 2007, summer time attendance would have been WAY up relative to 2007. I'm talking mid-30000's.
Of course, we'll never see that cuz management is clueless as to how to put together back to back playoff seasons.
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I officially need a new sig pic.
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1oldMutt
Dawg Talker
Reged: Apr 28 2007
Posts: 2537
Loc: Cuyahoga Falls OH
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This team will have the capability to generate some runs. Now, will the pitching staff be able to hold the opposition to fewer runs? Who knows, doubt it.
I'd love to see the cat in the building next door make a push for this franchise
and be the big man on the block! What an empire that would be!
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Looch
Practice Squad
Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 240
Loc: columbus
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this is probably the least excited I've ever been for baseball season to start. 75 wins if they're lucky. the pitching staff will be tossing batting practice all year. why drive two hours when C-bus has comparable talent a few minutes away? it's too bad they don't have any more Cy Young winners to trade for prospects coming off rotator cuff surgery.....and a player to be named later, of course.
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tjs7
1st String
Reged: Sep 27 2009
Posts: 464
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Quote:
In 2007, attendance rose near the end of the year. Especially after we traded for Kenny Lofton, it showed that we were serious about contending.
2008, attendance was actually UP for the first month of the season compared to 2007, but the Indians sucked, so attendance dwindled.
I can promise, PROMISE you that come June, if the Indians had the same record as they did in 2007, summer time attendance would have been WAY up relative to 2007. I'm talking mid-30000's.
Agreed. Attendance will go up if the team is consistently better. But, in the current climate in Cleveland, we will not see the sellout streak again, even if the team is good for several straight years. That was my only point. Example: while attendance went up throughout 2007, they still never sold out one game until the playoffs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:2007_Cleveland_Indians_season_game_log
The post I responded to implied that ownership doesn't care, presumably because the Dolans don't spend like Jacobs did. My response to that is that the Dolans are not earning as much revenue. Jacobs had all the advantages I listed before, plus a brand new ballpark. Back then, the Indians were selling more merchandise too, because they were the only game in town. The Indians of that era were drawing in enormous revenues, thus they could spend more.
The previous post also made the argument that management "dropped players," as if they had any choice. But no one can fault ownership for the loss of CC or Cliff Lee anymore than management could be faulted for the loss of Manny Ramirez or Jim Thome. Where criticism can be leveled is at Shapiro's drafting.
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no_logo_required
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 11 2006
Posts: 5090
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J/C
stupid Bud Selig.....baseball is trying to break itself further. Imagine that if for this season, we decided to completely eliminate all hope by moving to the AL East? Great one Bud, keep 'em coming. Moron!
One example of floating realignment, according to one insider, would work this way: Cleveland, which is rebuilding with a reduced payroll, could opt to leave the AL Central to play in the AL East. The Indians would benefit from an unbalanced schedule that would give them a total of 18 lucrative home dates against the Yankees and Red Sox instead of their current eight. A small or mid-market contender, such as Tampa Bay or Baltimore, could move to the AL Central to get a better crack at postseason play instead of continually fighting against the mega-payrolls of New York and Boston.
Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/wr...p#ixzz0hiE2CXlq
Get a free NFL Team Jacket and Tee with SI Subscription
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Logos? We don't need no stinking logos.
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BuckDawg1946
Dawg Talker
Reged: Jul 03 2007
Posts: 2184
Loc: Grandview, O to the H
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"A small or mid-market contender, such as Tampa Bay or Baltimore, could move to the AL Central to get a better crack at postseason play instead of continually fighting against the mega-payrolls of New York and Boston."
from the article,
or, i dont know, put a freaking salary cap in baseball. 
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Spergon FTWynn
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 8938
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
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so wait, then we'd have a 0% chance of not making the playoffs every year!
sweet, where do we sign!
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BEAST
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playoffmaker
Dawg Talker
Reged: Nov 14 2006
Posts: 1382
Loc: Minneapolis
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J/C...
Was out in Goodyear/PHX this weekend and caught the game on Saturday against the Reds.. The new facility is spotless!
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I heart winning
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Punchsmack
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 10 2006
Posts: 5979
Loc: Chicago, IL
Current High Scores in:
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Items wrong with MLB:
1. No salary cap (or salary floor).
2. No shared TV revenue.
3. The DH.
4. The 4-team postseason setup in each league (outside of making the playoffs, there's no incentive to really be the #1 or #2 seeds - with the "no playing a team from your own division in the first round").
5. People thinking that only hitters were juicing (more pitchers were caught since testing was put in place).
6. CC Sabithia (we had to trade him because we couldn't afford to sign him long term - heck, even the Red Sox were mad at the contract that the Yanks signed him to).
7. International players are free agents when coming to MLB. LAME! Put them in the draft like the NBA does.
8. The All Star game should mean nothing. It's an exhibition. (and let the players come back into the game once in case of extra innings - who cares!).
9. The playoffs should mimic the NFL's setup (6 teams). Have a short 3-game series for the 3, 4, 5, & 6 seeds right after the season ends. Reward the #1 and #2 seeds.
10. Quit giving the playoff teams too many days of rest. It's supposed to be a competition of the entire rotation. Not just the three best starters. Heck, forget about the rotation, just play the games. Throughout the season you play almost every day, once October rolls around you can't anymore? Babies.
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 09 FXDB
One Cleveland team is in contention each year. Tribe & Cavs no, who's left?
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Spergon FTWynn
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 8938
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
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Quote:
Items wrong with MLB:
1. No salary cap (or salary floor).
2. No shared TV revenue.
3. The DH.
4. The 4-team postseason setup in each league (outside of making the playoffs, there's no incentive to really be the #1 or #2 seeds - with the "no playing a team from your own division in the first round").
5. People thinking that only hitters were juicing (more pitchers were caught since testing was put in place).
6. CC Sabithia (we had to trade him because we couldn't afford to sign him long term - heck, even the Red Sox were mad at the contract that the Yanks signed him to).
7. International players are free agents when coming to MLB. LAME! Put them in the draft like the NBA does.
8. The All Star game should mean nothing. It's an exhibition. (and let the players come back into the game once in case of extra innings - who cares!).
9. The playoffs should mimic the NFL's setup (6 teams). Have a short 3-game series for the 3, 4, 5, & 6 seeds right after the season ends. Reward the #1 and #2 seeds.
10. Quit giving the playoff teams too many days of rest. It's supposed to be a competition of the entire rotation. Not just the three best starters. Heck, forget about the rotation, just play the games. Throughout the season you play almost every day, once October rolls around you can't anymore? Babies.
i agree, although, i kinda like the dh, because pitchers aren't athletes and id on't wanna watch them go up there, stick the bat on their shoulders, and let 3 pitches go by.
i mentioned before that fox is to blame for the all star bs, along with the fact that they have murdered saturday day baseball for their own good.
if tv revenue were shared, it would be a more competitve league in terms of teams making moves, and being able to keep their own players. although i still have my doubts the dolasn would still be 20m under the average payroll...
i could care less about basball this year. for the last 7 or 8 years it's been i could care less about baseball but i will still watch the indians, now i won't be making time to watch them, if they're on, i may watch, but i am not setting aside time to watch them.
we're all cleveland fans, we take kicked-in-the-jewels losses, and epically bad teams with the best of htem, but why sign up for something like this. the team stinks, they promise that they will build through their minor league system, and when those players get up, and you get to watch how good they can be, they get traded away for more prospects, while you get another promise that they'll be good in a few years.
why?
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BEAST
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Punchsmack
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 10 2006
Posts: 5979
Loc: Chicago, IL
Current High Scores in:
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Quote:
i agree, although, i kinda like the dh, because pitchers aren't athletes and id on't wanna watch them go up there, stick the bat on their shoulders, and let 3 pitches go by.
My point, is watching a pitcher hit really that different than watching the #8 hitter in the NL and #9 hitter in the AL? They all stink (outisde of the powerhouse teams). And if you abolish the DH, pitchers will eventually get better over time. They don't work on hitting because they rarely hold a bat. That's like asking Shaq to work on free throws if everyone knows he'll get zero to one free throw attempts per game. It wouldn't be worth the effort to get better.
I always though it would be cool to be a starting pitcher AND a first basemen the other days you don't start. Talk about adding value to your team (and being able to negotiate a monster contract).
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09 FXDB
One Cleveland team is in contention each year. Tribe & Cavs no, who's left?
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Spergon FTWynn
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 8938
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
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but i mean, even nl pitchers are horrible at the plate, even the managers work it to their favor.
with the way these pitchers are treated, i don't ever see them being asked to work on hitting more. people can argue zambrano and owings (not sure if the spelling is right on that) but those are far from the majority.
i like the dh, i think it adds more to the game. a lot of purists argue against it, but i see it as the addition of the 3 point line, it makes the game much more enjoyable.
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BEAST
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OoooRahJoice
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 30 2006
Posts: 9631
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I have no problem witht the DH itself,....I have a problem with the fact it is not universal.
I think a decent answer is to make both Leagues use it, and have both pitchers hit.
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legalizewd
Dawg Talker
Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 2874
Loc: Howland
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This thread is summing up baseball as we know it. Its titled "2010 Indians Suck" and I have seen no arguement either way about how the Indians will be good or bad, and why. The whole thread is about payroll 
The pitching looked good the first 2 days. Havnt had a chance to keep up since.
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OoooRahJoice
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 30 2006
Posts: 9631
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The whole thread is about payroll
It is why the Indians are bad though. 
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RememberMuni
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 23 2006
Posts: 3258
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I see what your getting at bro, but the payroll problem in baseball is too big to ignore. No?
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Forward, Forward, Forward, never back, Always Forward!
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legalizewd
Dawg Talker
Reged: Sep 11 2006
Posts: 2874
Loc: Howland
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Quote:
I see what your getting at bro, but the payroll problem in baseball is too big to ignore. No?
Yeah it is a problem. In football, we all have our opinions about why our teams will be good or bad. In baseball, we talk payroll. Its why I have been going to more minor league games. If you havnt checked out the Columbus Clippers stadium, check it out. Its my favorite stadium in baseball as far as food and atmosphere. It even beat out the Yankees and Mets as "Best New Ballpark in 09" Also, if you want to get your kids autographs or foul balls, go to see the Akron Aeros. Its the first stadium I have ever been at where people say "Id like a seat as far away from the field as possible." Line drives litter the stands so bring a glove. Go 15 minutes early and the players are still signing autographs. The Mahoning Valley Scrappers are also a very cheap baseball experiance for children. $1 Thursdays and you pay a a dollar for parking, each ticket, hotdogs and beer. Just a buck each 
I agree, too big to ignore but it will never change. Like a playoff in college football. Most thought we wouldnt see 65 teams in March Madness so you never know.
TV contracts in baseball are the problem with having a salary cap. Dolan owns STO so I thought that would bring him more revenue. But Dolan considers that a differant market. Hes not like the Yankees who use profits from the YES network.
I tried to quit talking payroll when I was upset about reading an article in USA Today saying how the Dolans want to cut payroll. When I made that complaint, everyone (ESPN or CBS message boards, right before I found this one) said I was lying and wanted a link. Like I would waiste my time lying about that. Now look at the state of the team.
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Spergon FTWynn
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 8938
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
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Quote:
I have no problem witht the DH itself,....I have a problem with the fact it is not universal.
that i agree with.
the one thing i do like about the thought of maybe doing away with the dh is seeing some of these pitchers go up there and take responsibility for plunking someone.
even though, it is my opinion, and never mind the fact that i play hockey, i think baseball players are complete wimps. ultra sensitive, overpaid wimps.
i love it, some guy hits one out of the park, then someone gets hit later on. and then 3 months later those 2 teams meet up, the team that hit the home run and then had a guy hit now goes and has their pitcher hit someone, and then BOTH BENCHES unload, and everyone is just standing around. seriously, those guys are a bunch of sissies.
and even when they do fight they look like 14 year old girls.
seriously. be a man.
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BEAST
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ExclDawg
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 19 2006
Posts: 6812
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I know it doesn't mean much of anything ... but the Tribe is undefeated in spring training. 
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no_logo_required
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 11 2006
Posts: 5090
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sure, if we got to play the Reds and Pirates all year, then we could contend for the playoffs  .
i do like that in a time when the pitchers are usually ahead of the hitters, our hitters seem ahead of the opponents pitchers.
this team might not compete for the playoffs, but they could score a whole lotta runs.
Edit: I thought we played the Pirates today. My fault.
Here is the current list of games we have played:
Tribe Spring Training Schedule
We beat:
Cincy 9-2
Cincy 4-2
AZ 3-2
SEA 6-4
SD 10-5
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Logos? We don't need no stinking logos.
Edited by no_logo_required (Wed Mar 10 2010 06:24 PM)
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OoooRahJoice
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 30 2006
Posts: 9631
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Get Out !! 
Is that 2 games or just one 
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ExclDawg
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 19 2006
Posts: 6812
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Five actually. 
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OoooRahJoice
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 30 2006
Posts: 9631
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Damn,...!! What the hell is going on ?
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Ammo
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 9469
Loc: Chesterland, OH
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It's the preseason.
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I officially need a new sig pic.
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OoooRahJoice
Hall of Famer
Reged: Oct 30 2006
Posts: 9631
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I would never have known,....
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RememberMuni
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 23 2006
Posts: 3258
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Quote:
One example of floating realignment, according to one insider, would work this way: Cleveland, which is rebuilding with a reduced payroll, could opt to leave the AL Central to play in the AL East. The Indians would benefit from an unbalanced schedule that would give them a total of 18 lucrative home dates against the Yankees and Red Sox instead of their current eight.
Unreal. I wouldn't put it past these selfish expletives.
"We know we're going to suck, so we'll take Tampa Bay's spot in the AL East for two years while they get to contend in the AL Central." - This way, Tampa Bay has a shot at the playoffs."
- In essence, what is happening here is that baseball is starting to revolve around the Yankees and Red Sox.
Without question, "floating realignment" means more money in the owners pockets, which means that the Dolans won't think twice to partake.I don't think I've ever hated any sports team,player,coach, owner, mascot, as much as I hate the Dolans. - What in the heck have they done to everything Cleveland and Dick Jacobs worked so hard to build.
It's hard to comprehend how bad the Indians ownership is. - They have ruined what was one of the most respected franchises in baseball. We're a complete non factor now, and we will continue to be.
People need to organize and demand that the Dolans sell this team.
And for those of you that claim that Dick Jacobs benefited from a new stadium and a hungry fan base, explain why Dan Gilbert has been so generous with the Cavs. - Before you mention Lebron, keep in mind that we had two Cy Young award winners on the Tribe. - Dolan could have spent some of his money and built around these guys in the same fashion that Gilbert built around Lebron.
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Forward, Forward, Forward, never back, Always Forward!
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The Assassin
Dawg Talker
Reged: Oct 03 2006
Posts: 1227
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this isnt football, the preseason tells alot in baseball. Look at the last 2 seasons.
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ExclDawg
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 19 2006
Posts: 6812
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Quote:
And for those of you that claim that Dick Jacobs benefited from a new stadium and a hungry fan base, explain why Dan Gilbert has been so generous with the Cavs. - Before you mention Lebron, keep in mind that we had two Cy Young award winners on the Tribe. - Dolan could have spent some of his money and built around these guys in the same fashion that Gilbert built around Lebron.
Do you not understand how a salary cap works? Lebron makes $12 million a year and is the best player on the planet. CC Sabathia makes $20 million a year plus and only plays every 4th or 5th day. He also doesn't sell out the park the way Lebron does.
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RememberMuni
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 23 2006
Posts: 3258
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It's not my job to figure out how to make it work. It's the owner and gm's job.
Nobody ever cried about the salary cap when Dick Jacobs was in charge.
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Forward, Forward, Forward, never back, Always Forward!
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Spergon FTWynn
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 12 2006
Posts: 8938
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
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Quote:
It's not my job to figure out how to make it work. It's the owner and gm's job.
Nobody ever cried about the salary cap when Dick Jacobs was in charge.
things were different back then. as soon as the yankees created the yes network, all hell broke loose.
salaries inflated big time after that. the pay scale was thrown off ridiculously, the infamous kevin brown contract came. all players seemed to be measured by the contracts the yankees were handing out, since they were basically throwing all kinds of money at the top tier free agents, every single year.
boston doesn't quite throw money around like the yankees do, but notice, nesn was created soon after so that they could be active and keep their own guys.
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BEAST
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ExclDawg
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 19 2006
Posts: 6812
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Quote:
It's not my job to figure out how to make it work. It's the owner and gm's job.
And in the mid-markets, the GM's and owners that do best either play moneyball (Oakland), or completely scrap their rosters every few years hoping to build up for one big two-year run of competitiveness (Florida, Tampa)
Quote:
Nobody ever cried about the salary cap when Dick Jacobs was in charge.
Have you even LOOKED at the salaries that Jacobs paid?
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=1995
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/cleiatte.shtml
1995: $ 35,185,500 (Yankees: $ 46,657,016)
1996: $ 45,317,914 (Yankees: $ 52,189,370)
1997: $ 54,130,232 (Yankees: $ 59,148,877)
1998: $ 59,033,499 (Yankees: $ 70,408,134)
1999: $ 73,857,962 (Yankees: $ 88,130,709)
(Dolan buys the team)
2000: $ 76,508,334 (Yankees: $ 92,938,260)
2001: $ 92,660,001 (Yankees: $ 112,287,143)
(YES Network Debuts)
2002: $ 78,909,449 (Yankees: $ 125,928,583)
2003: $ 48,584,834 (Yankees: $ 152,749,814)
Last Year: $ 81,579,166 (Yankees: $ 201,449,189)
A few important things to note here ...
1) Starting at 1994 Indians averaged over 35,000 in attendence, and were mostly averaging a sellout (you know ... that thing that pays the players salaries)
2) Through 2000, attendence stayed over 40,000 ... but then the Browns came back and suddenly the Indians weren't the hot ticket in town anymore.
3) Dolan is the guy with the three highest payrolls in club history.
4) Even when they went into full rebuild mode after the 2002 season, the payroll was still higher than "big spending" Jacobs' 1996 season ... and that's with Jacobs averaging almost a sell out every game, and Dolan averaging 21,000 a game.
5) Attendance Avg never dipped below 35,000 when Jacobs had the team, even counting the 1994 strike year ... Attendance Avg has never passed the 29,000 mark since 2003, and that's including the one year we almost made it to the world series.
6) Last year, cheap-butt Dolan had a bigger payroll than Dolan ever had ... despite having an average attendance 20,000 less than what Jacobs had for the majority of his years.
7) Yankee payrolls have never been under the 125M mark since YES started. That's more than double the payrolls they had for most the years the Jacobs owned the Indians.
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GMdawg
Legend
Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 13248
Loc: ohio
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He still won't get it Excl. The in thing to do for those who don't know any better is to just sit around and bitch about how cheap Dolan is. They don't want to be educated about the subject. They just want to sit around and bitch and moan. 
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I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Ammo
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 10 2006
Posts: 9469
Loc: Chesterland, OH
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Dolans founded STO so they could "spend more on the team" but I haven't seen a DIME more spent on the team since the founding of STO.
Just sayin'.
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I officially need a new sig pic.
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ExclDawg
Hall of Famer
Reged: Sep 19 2006
Posts: 6812
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They did spend a bit more ... (even though STO is a seperate venture away from the Indians, and not like YES which is owned directly by the Yankees)
2006: 51m payroll
2007: 61m (STO founded)
2008: 79m
2009: 81m
And if you honestly think STO is bringing in anywhere CLOSE to the same kind of money that YES is ... I dont' know what to tell you.
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