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Legend


Reged: Oct 11 2006
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AL Central - Indians and others
      #891525 - Tue Jan 17 2012 05:24 PM

Victor Martinez is out the year. I always liked him, but what makes our enemies weaker makes us stronger. He and Peralta (that hurts) were big factors in their middle of the order strength (with the addition of the obvious one too).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/747215...-ending-surgery

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


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PeteyDangerous
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #891532 - Tue Jan 17 2012 05:40 PM

Doesn't really matter. The Yanks, with our two new pitchers, are gonna come in and mop up this year anyway

With the pitching staff we had last year, I was surprised at how well we did. Now, we've got four legitimate pitchers and some candidates fighting for that fifth spot. Yanks should be able to compete in the playoffs and do some work. Losing Montero is not that big of a deal because in the end, he's really just a DH. We have plenty of hitters on the team, we needed pitching, so we gottem. With A-Rod and Jeter, we really need to be able to rest those guys and use the DH spot on them. Nunez can play either position, so he'll be able to come in and play the field when they switch off DHing. We have other DH possibilities also.

The only position that could really be upgraded on the Yankees roster is the right field positions with Nick Swisher. He's just not clutch in the post season, and with Texiera and A-Rod having post-season hitting issues as well, I'd like another clutch guy in the post season. So I'd like a new right fielder, but, for now I can deal with Swish. He brings character to the team and he's not bad in the field

(Sorry to derail your AL Central theme, but i've been waiting for someone to mention baseball so I could gloat about getting our two new pitchers)

--------------------
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball


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Legend


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #891535 - Tue Jan 17 2012 05:46 PM

whatever. if the Yankees win, then well what's the big deal? they should win and frankly it's a failure by their FO if they don't considering they have by far the highest payroll, never lose their best prospects (unless it's to acquire a star), and can go steal everyone else's.

now, if the Rays or Indians or other teams win by out-smarting those teams. that's something.

--------------------
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-Coach Pettine


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PeteyDangerous
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #891538 - Tue Jan 17 2012 06:03 PM

Quote:

whatever. if the Yankees win, then well what's the big deal? they should win and frankly it's a failure by their FO if they don't considering they have by far the highest payroll, never lose their best prospects (unless it's to acquire a star), and can go steal everyone else's.

now, if the Rays or Indians or other teams win by out-smarting those teams. that's something.




For one thing, It's a really big deal to us Yankee fans that we got these guys. Expectations are high, but it isn't like we win a world series and shrug it off. People love the Yankees

And no team has to just give us their prospects.............

And the people of the tri-state area pay good money for the Yankees to be good. We fill the stadium and pay expensive money for seats to the games, the Yankee TV network adds a significant amount to our cable bills too.

The Yanks have a ton of support. Probably because they're good. But good teams get support. It's like a big wheel. You know we have an above ground train that stops at Yankee Stadium. It's like the Yankees express, multiple trains coming from Long Island, upstate New York, and Connecticut to Yankee Stadium. There's probably a train that comes from New Jersey too. It's trains packed with Yankees fans. It actually makes the MTA money!

Get your cities to really support your teams and you'll be able to get payrolls like the Yankees. It's worked for the Phillies. It's worked with the Red Sox. Texas payroll is begining to rise.

Remember when the Indians packed Jacobs Field and they had a high pay roll? The Yankees are able to make money and that's why we do what we do. New York loves the team

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PeteyDangerous
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #891542 - Tue Jan 17 2012 06:10 PM

NoLogo, I think you should stop rooting for your sorry team. Move on down to the Big Apple, come see what the Yankees are all about.

Root for a winner. And fall in love with the greatest city in the world. New York's got everything. The only thing that'll get me outta this area is........... the cost of houses. But hopefully i'll make plenty of money in the next couple years and i'll make it happen

Beware though: Tickets aren't cheap and neither is your cable bill after the Yankees Channel gets to it

--------------------
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no_logo_required
Legend


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #891550 - Tue Jan 17 2012 06:25 PM

Quote:

Get your cities to really support your teams and you'll be able to get payrolls like the Yankees.






it worked for Boston and Philly huh. go pack the Jake huh.

ok, how much money does NYY make on the stadium and how much on TV deals? I had a Forbes article awhile back that showed how the YES network made it so that basically the other teams cannot compete. NYC has more people and more money than Cleveland, which makes it easier for them to support the team and for the team to get huge television deals. By a ton. That isn't changing. Just look at Anaheim. They just inked a huge local TV deal and now could go out and get Pujols and Wilson.

Heck, the Indians cannot compete with the payrolls of Detroit or Chicago in our own division, let alone the behemoths. If the city was as Indian-crazy as they were Browns-crazy, then maybe they could support a $80-100mil yearly payroll. But, that's about it.

And, I'm not one that is completely disparaging the MLB-system for it. It makes it intriguing for the 'little guys' like the Rays, Indians and such to go up against the bigger markets. And, because of how baseball is played, it is actually possible to do it (if the NBA or NFL had such a system, then it would kill the smaller markets much more).

but, don't come on here and tell us if we supported our team then we could have a payroll like the Yankees as if it's a simple matter of filling the Jake. that's ridiculous.




(as far as no team has to give you prospects, you are correct. but, when they hit FA, MLB players have shown they will go where they get the most money. which, is almost always a big market team.)

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #891552 - Tue Jan 17 2012 06:28 PM

I like visiting cities like NYC, but I could never live there. Too many people, too congested, houses/apt's too small, no land, etc.

After living the good life with a big house and yard and a 10-20min commute to work, I could never give it up.

as far as bandwagon jumping, I could never do that either. I have now lived in OH, CA, AZ, and TX. The teams I cheer for our the Cleveland teams because those are the teams I grew up with.

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


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PeteyDangerous
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #891563 - Tue Jan 17 2012 06:44 PM

Quote:

Heck, the Indians cannot compete with the payrolls of Detroit or Chicago in our own division, let alone the behemoths. If the city was as Indian-crazy as they were Browns-crazy, then maybe they could support a $80-100mil yearly payroll. But, that's about it.




That's fair. You're right. I acknowledge the power of the YES Network. It really holds cable companies hostage because enough people support the Yankees that they have to pay for it, but there's plenty of people who have no interest and are stuck paying for it as well. And it does significantly increase the bill. It's a station owned by the Yankees too.

It's really how the Mets make all their money also (SNY)

But as a Yankees fan, I can't say that I really care for the problems of the smaller market teams. Who doesn't like having an exciting team every summer?

Quote:

I like visiting cities like NYC, but I could never live there. Too many people, too congested, houses/apt's too small, no land, etc.

After living the good life with a big house and yard and a 10-20min commute to work, I could never give it up.

as far as bandwagon jumping, I could never do that either. I have now lived in OH, CA, AZ, and TX. The teams I cheer for our the Cleveland teams because those are the teams I grew up with.




Yeah, that's what I've sorta seen. As I've said, I love the New York area, but living in it is so expensive. My job has very little commute (since I work on the water, i'm gone for weeks and then I'm home for weeks), but I've seen what some of my co-worker buddies in Texas can do with their money. They get to buy houses, new pickup trucks, dirtbikes, and skeeter boats for bass fishing (although one of them showed me pictures of where he fishes and there's alligators in the water! Count me out........)

Houses around New York are so expensive that it kind of eliminates the toys (But we do have the Yankees )

--------------------
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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #891567 - Tue Jan 17 2012 06:47 PM

Yep.

I'd always rather root for a team with heart than one with wallet.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #891575 - Tue Jan 17 2012 06:53 PM

People fill up Yankee Stadium and pay ridiculous prices for seats and beers, because they have a 200 million dollar payroll and the best players money can buy. If you were trotting out the Indians team, nobody would come and watch them either.

All those ridiculous expenses the Yankee fans pay came after your team was stacked with everyone else's talent. I hate that argument. Colin Cowherd makes that all the team. It's complete rubbish.

I don't fault the Yankees for doing what they do, because if the Tribe could do it, I'd be all for it, but they are essentially ruining baseball. Or have ruined, by some people's arguments.

Remember when the World Series was a big thing? Now it's a big thing to a small amount of people. Nobody cares anymore. The NFL rules now because the Yankees can't happen.

--------------------

@dpaoloni


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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #891581 - Tue Jan 17 2012 07:00 PM

Yep. People want to think that their team can have a chance at the ring. Like the players making their own demands to move to different teams in the NBA or not, at least there is a system in place where the teams losing players can recoup some of their loss, or at least have a better than even chance of signing their own player by offering him more money. The NFL allows all teams to compete on an even scale, with astute drafting being the main component to a winning team.

In baseball, it takes so long to develop prospects that a team who can short circuit the whole draft/develop process by virtue of having more money than everyone else takes away from the competitive balance. A team with money, like the Yankees, can afford to "out mistake" 5 or 6 lower level teams combined, and still have money left over to pursue upper level free agents. It's probably great if you are the team who can buy everyone ...... but it sucks if you are a fan of an average level team.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


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Loki
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #891634 - Tue Jan 17 2012 08:01 PM

You got to be joking...I'll let the numbers speak for themselves

http://www.deepintosports.com/2009/07/21...en-dma-payroll/

Quote:

Market Rank TV Households 2009 Payroll Payroll/Household
35 905,350 Brewers $80,182,502 $88.57
34 915,570 Reds $73,558,500 $80.34
31 937,970 Royals $70,519,333 $75.18
21 1,249,820 Cardinals $77,605,109 $62.09
26 1,102,080 Orioles $67,101,666 $60.89
11 1,926,970 Tigers $115,085,145 $59.72
14 1,819,970 Mariners $98,904,166 $54.34
17 1,524,930 Indians $81,579,166 $53.50
7 2,409,080 Red Sox $121,745,999 $50.54
18 1,524,210 Rockies $75,201,000 $49.34
10 2,106,210 Astros $102,996,414 $48.90
23 1,156,460 Pirates $48,693,000 $42.11
28 1,066,680 Padres $43,734,200 $41.00
8 2,369,780 Braves $96,726,166 $40.82
12 1,855,930 Diamondbacks $73,516,666 $39.61
3 3,492,850 Cubs $134,809,000 $38.60
4 2,950,220 Phillies $113,004,046 $38.30
15 1,730,530 Twins $65,299,266 $37.73
13 1,822,160 Rays $63,313,034 $34.75
6 2,476,450 Giants $82,616,450 $33.36
3 3,492,850 White Sox $96,068,500 $27.50
5 2,489,970 Rangers $68,178,798 $27.38
1 7,433,820 Yankees $201,449,189 $27.10
9 2,321,610 Nationals $60,328,000 $25.99
6 2,476,450 Athletics $62,310,000 $25.16
16 1,546,920 Marlins $36,834,000 $23.81
2 5,654,260 Angels $113,709,000 $20.11
1 7,433,820 Mets $149,373,987 $20.09
2 5,654,260 Dodgers $100,414,592 $17.76





So basically you're saying that by winning the Cincinnait with 915,000 households and the Indians with 1.5 million households can recieve the same kinda support, fans, and most importantly TV Deal as the Yankees with 7.5 million households?

--------------------
Go Browns!!



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PeteyDangerous
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #891643 - Tue Jan 17 2012 08:11 PM

Quote:

It's probably great if you are the team who can buy everyone ...... but it sucks if you are a fan of an average level team.




Oh, I know this is how it works. But that's exactly it, I'm a Yankees fan. I love playing in the playoffs every year. I love talking about my baseball team in August and September. I acknowledge that that's probably impossible if you're from Kansas City or something.

On our sports radio here in NYC, Craig Carton and Boomer Esiason (Met Fans) every year create the "Met Fans For Yankees" Club. They sell rubber bracelets (that donate money to charities) and stuff like that.

The Mets become irrelevant on the radio come early fall, lol. So they have to start talking a lot more about the Yankees and the pennant/wild card. They're actually really good at it. Then they follow the Yankees through the playoffs and do coverage for them.

I have no problem with Met fans jumping on the wagon. Some people say it's wrong to do, but I really like the Mets. It's too bad what happened to that team.

Bernie Madoff needs to be shot. He ruined the Mets. They have a good managers, but the owners invested money from the Madoff Pawnsy Scheme into SNY, now they're having to give all their SNY profits back. With the real estate market crumbling, the owners are having to cut back on pay-roll big time. Meanwhile tickets to the games are still very expensive.

I just hope that their managers stick around to make it through this storm. They've got good people in place, they just need to get the ship righted

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Loki
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #891646 - Tue Jan 17 2012 08:19 PM

Yeah but the problem is that the Yankee's advantages are killing baseball. There's a reason its no longer the number 1 sport in America. As far as I know its still 27 outs on beautiful days of summer.

If I was Yankee I would probably like the system too, but doesn't change the fact its killing baseball. Look at the Indians they let 2 back to back Cy Young winners walk cause they coudn't afford them....how can you get excited for a team when you know eventually your favorite player is going to ditch (Votto) eventually.

--------------------
Go Browns!!



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Browns Lifer
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #891648 - Tue Jan 17 2012 08:24 PM

Wow... didn't take long for THIS thread to get hijacked. By a Skankees fan no less.

Back to the thread...

Heard that we came to 1-year agreements with Masterson, Choo, Chris Perez, Hannahan and Joe Smith. Good move to avoid arbitration. Not sure why we bothered with Hannahan, but OK... LOL

Two more to go: Asdrubal and Rafael Perez. Need to get those guys inked.

--------------------
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

-- Mark Twain


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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Browns Lifer]
      #891651 - Tue Jan 17 2012 08:25 PM

This isn't a Tribe thing as much as it's MLB... but why is it taking so long for Prince Fielder to sign somewhere? Aren't most FA deals done before New Years??

--------------------

@dpaoloni


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Browns Lifer
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #891653 - Tue Jan 17 2012 08:27 PM

Last time I checked, the Skanks weren't in the AL Central.

--------------------
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-- Mark Twain


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PeteyDangerous
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Browns Lifer]
      #891657 - Tue Jan 17 2012 08:35 PM

Quote:

Wow... didn't take long for THIS thread to get hijacked. By a Skankees fan no less.




Sorry, I just wanted to gloat about our new pitchers, and you guys are the only people I can do it to.

I'm not involved in a Yankees board or really any other message boards. You're all I've got........... But just so you guys all know, you're my 2nd favorite AL team. Anyway, on to your Indians convos

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Loki
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #891707 - Tue Jan 17 2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

This isn't a Tribe thing as much as it's MLB... but why is it taking so long for Prince Fielder to sign somewhere? Aren't most FA deals done before New Years??




Because him and Boras want 10 years 260 Million like Pujols..I don't care where he ends up as long as its out of the NL Central. My thoughts on likely spots:

Rangers- Not possible with Yu Darvish signing soon and having to reup Josh Hamilitan can't afford it. However, if Yu doesn't come to terms i think they have like 3 more days then I think Rangers become viable again.

Marlins: I think they are going to take the money and sped it on Yoenis Cespedes. Big Latin community and would be a perfect fit. However, going to vastly overpay for a guy who has never came up against the quality of MLB pitching or even AAA pitching.

Brewers: took the money and spent it elsewhere

Cubs; Looks like they are in full rebuild mode

Nationals: Winner Winner Chicken Dinner. Zimmerman can move to third and Boras and the Nationals owner are on good terms. I think its a 6 year deal at about 21 mil per.

--------------------
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tastybrownies
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Browns Lifer]
      #891715 - Tue Jan 17 2012 10:48 PM

Hannahan actually did pretty well with the leather playing third base last year. At least to me it was a rather nice surprise. In terms of players I really wonder about:

Laporta: This is definitely a put up or shut up year for him. He needs to produce NOW. I am sick of waiting for this guy to come around. I mean he was supposed to be the centerpiece of the CC Sabathia deal, let's go!

The outfield: I'm hoping the outfield is set with Brantley, maybe sizemore(although he is getting old and may not be worth the contract...), and of course Choo on the right side. I'm hoping Choo can have a great year not having to worry about any of his army issues with Korea.

The infield: I'm hoping we pick up some kind of a power right handed stick to play first base because I am severely doubting Hafner's ability to play everyday at this point. I just want a right hander who can produce some power with a decent average. As for second base, you have Jason kipnis who played good last year for a rookie. At third you have Chisenhall who showed good power and had clutch hits last year for us winning some games in walk off fasion.

Pitching and the bullpen: I'm just hoping the rotation holds up well with all the young guys we are counting on this year.
Will the starting rotation and bullpen look like this????

STARTERS
Jiminez
Masterson
Tomlin
Huff
Gomez??

BULLPEN
Raffy Perez
Joe Smith
Vinnie Pestano(REALLY impressed by his guys)
Tony Sipp
Lastly, the man Chris Perez!!!!

Go Tribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know it may be too early, but any outside predictions on what our record may be this year?

--------------------


Edited by tastybrownies (Tue Jan 17 2012 10:51 PM)


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Loki
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: tastybrownies]
      #891721 - Tue Jan 17 2012 11:01 PM

Bearer of bad news that looks like a 80-82 the team. The team hasn't changed at all from last year so might as well predict same results.

Maybe Grady comes back and Ubaldo returns to his ace form and the Indians surprise, but that's a lot of hoping.

--------------------
Go Browns!!



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no_logo_required
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Loki]
      #891779 - Wed Jan 18 2012 08:17 AM

the one hope there would be that the Tribe had a ton of injuries last year. way more than normal. so, if we can be a bit more healthy, then perhaps we can improve that record.

add in the youngsters already having their feet wet and you can tack on a few more wins.

still, it's going to be tough to catch the Tigers by their toe

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #891784 - Wed Jan 18 2012 08:50 AM

I kinda like that Grady is back, it's a nice story, but I'm really liking that we aren't going to depend on him, I think they have kinda moved on from banking on him doing anything. Whatever we get is a bonus.

The next person we need to do that with is Hafner.

Everyone else's injuries were pretty much a fluke/could happen to anyone.

Too bad we have no chance at Fielder, talk about a perfect fit.

--------------------

@dpaoloni


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Alpoe19
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Loki]
      #892205 - Thu Jan 19 2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Bearer of bad news that looks like a 80-82 the team. The team hasn't changed at all from last year so might as well predict same results.

Maybe Grady comes back and Ubaldo returns to his ace form and the Indians surprise, but that's a lot of hoping.




it usually never works like that. Not too many people thought we would've done as good as we did last year. there's too many varibles from year to year to think things will be the same. If the ball bounces their way, and guys play out of their mind, I could see this team winning 87-90 games. Just like if some guys have off years we could only win 75, and that wouldn't surprise me either. plus injuries are hard to figure. ... Everyone seems to think they will sign carlos pena, or casey kotchman. So, there's still some time to make a few upgrades. Just waiting on Fielder to sign, so these other guys could follow.


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Punchsmack
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #892210 - Thu Jan 19 2012 01:47 PM

Quote:

still, it's going to be tough to catch the Tigers by their toe




They already lost VMart for the whole season a few days ago (mentioned above). Imagine if Verlander missed a month or so....the Tribe was very close to pulling the division out last year when injuries ruined their chances. With VMart out, that really puts a lot of pressure on that team....he had a monster year, that's tough to replace.

I like our chances this year. We need guys to stay healthy and to play like last year (maybe a bit over their talent levels).

Hey, this is what sports is all about. Getting your hopes up, watching the team and talking about what's wrong and how to fix it. If we're lucky, they'll get into the playoffs. And like the Cards proved last year, all you need to do it get in to make some magic happen (and some timely late inning runs in Game 6 of the WS).

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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Punchsmack]
      #892215 - Thu Jan 19 2012 01:58 PM

People often forget that while Verlander is a great pitcher, the Tribe actually has pretty good success against him, lifetime 11-13 record against us. Last year he owned them (as he owned everyone else)

There is no guarantee that he has that kind of year again, and it's no lock that he owns the Tribe like he did. I'll be real interested to see how that first matchup goes.

One guy that I am glad is gone is Carlos Quentin from the Sox, seriously when that guy faced us it seemed like he saw the baseball as a beach ball.

--------------------

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Alpoe19
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #892223 - Thu Jan 19 2012 02:04 PM

the white sox definitely are in rebuild mode. Losing Buehlre and Quentin, plus some of their other guys are getting old. I don't think the twins will be a factor. I really love the royals, and how they have built that team. They will be in the hunt for the next 5 seasons or so. Should be a 3 team race.

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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Alpoe19]
      #892257 - Thu Jan 19 2012 03:31 PM

Quote:

the white sox definitely are in rebuild mode. Losing Buehlre and Quentin, plus some of their other guys are getting old. I don't think the twins will be a factor. I really love the royals, and how they have built that team. They will be in the hunt for the next 5 seasons or so. Should be a 3 team race.




Yeah, complete rebuild. Ozzie gone, Buerhle gone, 2 biggest personalities on that team by far. They still have a few nice pieces, but I think the presence of Ozzie gone alone, will hurt that team. He's 50/50 with fans around here, but me personally, I think he's an excellent manager and a guy I'd love to play for. Lets you know where you stand. What he did in 2005 was one of the best managing jobs I've ever seen.

--------------------

@dpaoloni


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bigdatut
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #892258 - Thu Jan 19 2012 03:33 PM

Fausto Carmona arrested in Dominican Republic for using false identity

Aaron Gleeman
Jan 19, 2012, 3:06 PM EST

Jorge Arangure of ESPN.com passes along word from reporter Yancen Pujols that Indians right-hander Fausto Carmona was arrested in the Dominican Republic and is being charged with using a false identity.

According to Pujols, Dominican police arrested Carmona–whose real name is apparently Roberto Hernandez Heredia–while he was leaving the American consulate after renewing his visa.

Last month Marlins reliever Leo Nunez was arrested in the Dominican Republic when it was discovered that his real name is Juan Carlos Oviedo.

Oviedo was later released from jail and the incident didn’t stop the Marlins from tendering him a contract and signing him for $6 million to avoid arbitration, so based on how that played out Carmona/Heredia may not be in serious trouble either. However, he may struggle to get a visa in time for spring training.

Carmona/Heredia finished fourth in the Cy Young award voting in 2007, going 19-6 with a 3.06 ERA in 215 innings as a 23-year-old rookie, although now perhaps he wasn’t actually 23 and since then he has a 5.01 ERA in 645 innings. Back in October the Indians exercised their $7 million option on Carmona/Heredia despite his 5.25 ERA in 32 starts last season.

UPDATE: Dionisio Soldevilla of the Associated Press reports that Carmona/Heredia is actually 31 years old, not 28 as everyone believed. That means his standout rookie season came at age 26 and could give the Indians a way to void his contract.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/0...entity/related/

--------------------
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: bigdatut]
      #892261 - Thu Jan 19 2012 03:38 PM

Tribe won't want to void his contract. We could have opted out of it if we had wanted to afterall.

No real surprise that he's older than we thought though it stinks that his dropoff is more likely moving forward.

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Adam_P
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #892345 - Thu Jan 19 2012 07:17 PM

Should've unloaded him two seasons ago.

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Punchsmack
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: bigdatut]
      #892395 - Thu Jan 19 2012 09:47 PM

I don't think this has too much of an impact on with his current contract. His upside is still there and he's relatively cheap. So it only hurts the value on his next contract. No big deal.

What I want to know....with this news out, does he play this upcoming season with Carmona or Heredia on the back of his jersey?

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Alpoe19
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Punchsmack]
      #892412 - Thu Jan 19 2012 10:35 PM

I wonder if Carlos Santana has a different name as well. He's from the same town as carmona. That's kind of strange no one on the indians knew about this. It's not a big deal to me, but the indians have quite a few Dominicans on the team, including manager Manny Acta. Acta has stated he is very close to Ubaldo Jiminez family, so I'm pretty sure he would probably be familiar with carmona's background. The dominican is no bigger than ohio population wise.

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Ammo
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Alpoe19]
      #892428 - Thu Jan 19 2012 11:14 PM

Indians Manager Juan Sanchez (formerly Manny Acta) is outraged over the Faux-sto Carmona news.

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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: bigdatut]
      #892432 - Thu Jan 19 2012 11:36 PM

I just think that it would be kinda funny if these guys could no longer access their bank accounts because they are not the person who opened the account .......

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Frenchy
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #892435 - Fri Jan 20 2012 12:24 AM

but who would get the money???

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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Frenchy]
      #892436 - Fri Jan 20 2012 12:40 AM

They can send it to me.

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candyman92
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: bigdatut]
      #892438 - Fri Jan 20 2012 01:16 AM

Haven't contracts been voided in the past because of age stuff?

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cfrs15
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: candyman92]
      #892455 - Fri Jan 20 2012 04:48 AM

Adrian Beltre.

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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: cfrs15]
      #892472 - Fri Jan 20 2012 06:55 AM

I just saw this ......


"Fausto Carmona: The player who was named later."

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


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brownsfan2119
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Ammo]
      #892642 - Fri Jan 20 2012 04:22 PM

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/1/20/2721758/kevin-slowey-trade-rockies-indians-zach-putnam

Jan 20, 2012 - On Thursday, the Cleveland Indians learned that starter Fausto Carmona was really named Roberto Hernandez Heredia and might be three years older than originally thought.

Could that be related to this trade reported by Jon Morosi?

If the Tribe is seeking pitching depth for the possible absence of Carmona/Heredia, then acquiring an additional starter is the way to go. Slowey was hurt much of last year and posted a 0-8 record in 14 appearances (eight starts) for the Twins with a 6.67 ERA. That got him traded to the Rockies on Dec. 8 for minor league pitcher Daniel Turpen.

Putnam is a 23-year-old righthander who made eight relief appearances for the Indians in 2011, posting a 6.14 ERA. So that makes this about even, ERA-wise, at least.

Depth is about all this provides; Slowey's overall numbers have never been great and as Jeff Sullivan wrote on Thursday, he has the highest K/BB ratio (minimum 500 innings) in MLB history at 4.70.

Still, he's more likely to have success in Cleveland than in Colorado. And it's one less starter in camp for the Rockies, which puts Jamie Moyer one step closer to making the Colorado rotation.

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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: brownsfan2119]
      #893760 - Tue Jan 24 2012 03:05 PM

Prince to Detroit, maybe.

Hey Larry Dolan, kiss your "building" toward a championship, goodbye, cheapskate.

--------------------

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Punchsmack
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #893764 - Tue Jan 24 2012 03:15 PM

They can have that contract.....it will cripple them. There's a reason why only 2-3 teams were willing to spend that kind of cash.

And Fielder is only replacing VMart.

I'm not too worried. The pressure on Prince will be crazy high.

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no_logo_required
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #893767 - Tue Jan 24 2012 03:26 PM

Quote:

Prince to Detroit, maybe.

Hey Larry Dolan, kiss your "building" toward a championship, goodbye, cheapskate.




$24mil/year for 9 years? wow. that's alot of dough.

yes, it helps Detroit next season. it basically makes them a slightly better offensive team than they were last year. if Prince takes the year to adjust to AL pitchers, then it could make them equal (since VMart is gone).

longterm, that is an awfully big risk.

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: no_logo_required]
      #893790 - Tue Jan 24 2012 04:25 PM

Miguel Cabrera with Prince batting behind him?

Yikes.

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@dpaoloni


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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #893796 - Tue Jan 24 2012 05:07 PM

well, we have to hope Prince has his customary "even" year dip. never an OPS+ above 135 in an even year. never an OPS+ below 157 in an odd year (full season). strange but true.

and that OPS+ around 130 or so puts him at about equal to V-Mart (132 last year).

--------------------
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-Coach Pettine


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DeepThreat
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #893802 - Tue Jan 24 2012 05:13 PM

Quote:

Prince to Detroit, maybe.

Hey Larry Dolan, kiss your "building" toward a championship, goodbye, cheapskate.




Because it's Dolan's fault he can't afford to buy players...

--------------------

I don't know as much as I think I do.


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Alpoe19
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: DeepThreat]
      #893808 - Tue Jan 24 2012 05:35 PM

where does detroit get all of this money? they're in a small market like cleveland. I am aware they draw really well, but this is shocking they could afford this guy, and the indians can't even get anybody remotely close to fielder's talent. If dolan can't get fans at the park, it's time to sell. I've supported this guy plenty, but if you're own fan base is alienated, right or wrong, it's time for you to go.

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DeepThreat
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Alpoe19]
      #893810 - Tue Jan 24 2012 05:41 PM

Detroit has great attendance and signed a huge TV contract in 2008.

--------------------

I don't know as much as I think I do.


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Alpoe19
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: DeepThreat]
      #893813 - Tue Jan 24 2012 05:52 PM

Well then shame on Larry Dolan for not being the business man Detroit has running their organization.

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no_logo_required
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: DeepThreat]
      #893815 - Tue Jan 24 2012 05:58 PM

only $40mil/year on their TV contract though. compared to Anaheim, Texas, Boston, and NY (both Yanks and Mets) it's piddly but more than what we get.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/22/cable-television-baseball-values-09-business-sports-cable.html

right on about attendance. attendance per game the past five years (2011 on left)

DET 32K, 30, 31, 39, 37
CLE 22K, 17, 22, 27, 28

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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: DeepThreat]
      #893819 - Tue Jan 24 2012 06:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Prince to Detroit, maybe.

Hey Larry Dolan, kiss your "building" toward a championship, goodbye, cheapskate.




Because it's Dolan's fault he can't afford to buy players...




I realize the economics of the league, but on the other hand I also believe he uses that as a crutch to do nothing. All you have to do is look at the payroll on this team, look at what each player makes and realize why nobody sticks around.

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@dpaoloni


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no_logo_required
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: no_logo_required]
      #893821 - Tue Jan 24 2012 06:12 PM

better breakdown of Tigers vs. Indians financial situations:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Detroit-Tigers_332729.html

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Cleveland-Indians_333426.html


The big number is the revenue per fan. $47 for Cleveland, $31 for Detroit. They have a metro area 2X ours, so they still have the bigger payroll. Forbes has them operating at a loss as well, not sure how accurate that is (Boston, NYM also have that claim, but they funnel money through some other companies to offset).

--------------------
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RememberMuni
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: no_logo_required]
      #893887 - Tue Jan 24 2012 09:24 PM

j/c

I really, really, hope that Dan Gilbert ends up owning the Indians someday.

--------------------

Forward, Forward, Forward, never back, Always Forward!


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PeteyDangerous
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: no_logo_required]
      #893901 - Tue Jan 24 2012 09:52 PM

Quote:

The big number is the revenue per fan. $47 for Cleveland, $31 for Detroit. They have a metro area 2X ours, so they still have the bigger payroll. Forbes has them operating at a loss as well, not sure how accurate that is (Boston, NYM also have that claim, but they funnel money through some other companies to offset).




Mets now operate at a loss because of that Madoff scandal and they're losing all their SNY Sports Channel profits (they took money they made off Madoff early on and invested it in their channel).

Red Sox, no way they operate at a real loss. The nation is a real thing unfortunately, and they've got a big chip on their shoulders......... Boston sports fans can be the worst. Especially Red Sox fans. Walk around NYC and wear a RedSox hat, you'll be fine. No one bothers you as long as you don't act like a jackass (which will get you in trouble in NYC no matter who you cheer for). Walk around Boston with a Yankees hat, you're looking for trouble.

But yeah, that team is supported hardcore. They make money hand over fist. They sell their seats the way the Yankees do, expensive. Except the Yankees don't always fill their ridiculously expensive seats, the Sox stadium is small and it's very difficult to get tickets. Plus their TV Network NESN is shown over Northern CT, Rhode Island, Vermont, New Hampshire, Southern Maine. They have to make tons of cash from that. Red Sox do very well. The Sox are just as bad as the "Evil Empire" Yankees. They make tons of money and they spend tons of money

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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: PeteyDangerous]
      #893905 - Tue Jan 24 2012 09:58 PM

yup, NESN gave them a fat deal. They might as well call them the New England Red Sox.

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Frenchy
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: RememberMuni]
      #893948 - Wed Jan 25 2012 01:17 AM

Quote:

j/c

I really, really, hope that Dan Gilbert ends up owning the Indians someday.




I actually hope that Mark Cuban buys the Indians.


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I_Rogue
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Frenchy]
      #893975 - Wed Jan 25 2012 08:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

j/c

I really, really, hope that Dan Gilbert ends up owning the Indians someday.




I actually hope that Mark Cuban buys the Indians.




Didn't he try to buy the Cubs twice and got nixed by MLB?

I'm not saying to go out and give Fielder that much money for that many years, but do something. Get one guy. Just one guy and walk the talk of "we'll make the moves when we are competitive." I've said it quite a bit on this board. The Dolans' mantra is: "Buy our widgets. They suck, but if you, the fans, don't buy them, we won't make better widgets and it will be your fault. This ownership never made good on their word. We were not that far away in 2007 and they blew it. They aren't too far away now and they are sitting on their hands. I would love to see the "real" financial books on this franchise. Make an investment in the company. Build it and they will come.

--------------------
Give a man a fish and he'll vote for you. Teach a man to fish and he'll move to Texas.

Edited by I_Rogue (Wed Jan 25 2012 08:33 AM)


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no_logo_required
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Frenchy]
      #893995 - Wed Jan 25 2012 09:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

j/c

I really, really, hope that Dan Gilbert ends up owning the Indians someday.




I actually hope that Mark Cuban buys the Indians.




both of those guys would likely spend a bit more as they will gamble more than the Dolan's on fielding a competitive team. but, we're talking $10mil/year more. so, an $80mil roster instead of a $70mil roster like we have this year.

Detroit is going to be somewhere near $140mil this year (numbers arent' solid anywhere but they should be around their '08/'10 payrolls after the Fielder deal)

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ExclDawg
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: no_logo_required]
      #894001 - Wed Jan 25 2012 10:17 AM

I think guys would be in for a rude awakening with Gilbert or Cuban ... both of them have the rules on their side in the NBA, where other teams can't get to crazy over the salary cap. They both also have the benefit of sold out arenas, so an extra $10 million a year on luxary tax isn't going to even dent their wallet.

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Re: Tigers to have largest IF ever [Re: ExclDawg]
      #894109 - Wed Jan 25 2012 05:17 PM

Miggy is officially moving to 3B

http://espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove11/story/...erful-3-4-punch

If I am a hitting coach in the AL, I am training my guys to hit hard grounders against the Tigers. Miggy at 3B, Peralta at SS, and Fielder at 1B? Santiago is going to look like a midget at 2B.

--------------------
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Ballpeen
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Re: Tigers to have largest IF ever [Re: no_logo_required]
      #894146 - Wed Jan 25 2012 07:15 PM

Quote:

Miggy is officially moving to 3B

http://espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove11/story/...erful-3-4-punch

If I am a hitting coach in the AL, I am training my guys to hit hard grounders against the Tigers. Miggy at 3B, Peralta at SS, and Fielder at 1B? Santiago is going to look like a midget at 2B.




That is what he says.....lets see what Leland says.


With Vmart out for the season, my guess is Cabrrera and Fielder split time at 1b and DH.



That aside, hot grounders against any team is sound baseball.


A few study's have been conducted and the stats show if you hit nothing but groundballs, you'd hit close to .300.


Groundballs are anything from a swinging dribbler back to the mound to a scorching grounder.

On the other hand, if you hit nothing but fly balls...anything from a foul pop-up to the catcher the the longest homer to center ever recorded, you'd hit just a tad under .200.


And just to carry this a step further....if you hit nothing but line drives....liners that could be considered scorching grounders that hit near the infielder or homers hit on a line that barely clear the height of the fence, you'd hit over .700.


Liners and grounders is winning baseball. Teach your kids to hit the top of the baseball with a slight downwards swing.



Really, you see way more "seeing-eye singles" than you do blooper singles, and more decently hit grounders make it through than do decently hit fly balls find a place to fall other than a outfielders glove.

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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Tigers to have largest IF ever [Re: Ballpeen]
      #894167 - Wed Jan 25 2012 08:38 PM

I wonder how many more heaters Leland can go through with Miggy playing 3rd.

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Ballpeen
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Re: Tigers to have largest IF ever [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #894173 - Wed Jan 25 2012 08:49 PM

Like i said, i don't think he will play much at 3rd....especially after late April and Leyland tries to appease the guy.


With Vmart out, he has a perfect fall back option.


By the end of the season both Cabrrera and Fielder will play 150 games with a load as a DH....assuming nobody gets hurt.


Inge is a pretty good defensive player and not a bad hitter. Leyland is going to decide Inge needs to be in there 130-140 games a year.

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ExclDawg
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Re: Tigers to have largest IF ever [Re: no_logo_required]
      #894259 - Thu Jan 26 2012 09:30 AM

The Tigers' groundskeeper will probably grow the infield to knee-high.

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Punchsmack
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #894489 - Thu Jan 26 2012 10:23 PM

Indians put Carmona on restricted list
January 26, 2012 2:35 pm

The Indians announced Thursday that they have put "Fausto Carmona" on the restricted list.

And yes, that's what they called him.

Carmona, as we found out last week, is actually Roberto Hernandez Heredia. He was arrested by Dominican Republic police and charged with using a fake identity.

Because of that, the Indians don't yet know when Carmona (or Hernandez) is going to be able to come to the United States. By putting him on the restricted list, they won't have him count against their roster limit and won't have to pay him.

It's the same move that the Marlins made with Leo Nunez/Juan Carlos Oviedo, who was charged last September with using a fake identity. Oviedo is still on the restricted list, with no certainty yet on when he'll be able to leave the Dominican Republic.

Carmona is signed for $7 million for 2012. He can be taken off the restricted list at any time, and the Indians plan to do that one he is able to get into the country.


So from what it sounds like, it's not really about if the Indians want him back, it comes down to when he'll be allowed to leave the DR. And that might not be soon. Ouch.

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wojo_dew
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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: no_logo_required]
      #894496 - Thu Jan 26 2012 10:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

j/c

I really, really, hope that Dan Gilbert ends up owning the Indians someday.




I actually hope that Mark Cuban buys the Indians.




both of those guys would likely spend a bit more as they will gamble more than the Dolan's on fielding a competitive team. but, we're talking $10mil/year more. so, an $80mil roster instead of a $70mil roster like we have this year.

Detroit is going to be somewhere near $140mil this year (numbers arent' solid anywhere but they should be around their '08/'10 payrolls after the Fielder deal)





$70M??? Isn't it closer to $45-50M right now at the most? Derek Lowe has a huge salary but the Indians are only paying like a couple million I think.

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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: wojo_dew]
      #894497 - Thu Jan 26 2012 10:50 PM

Indians are in the low $60 million range this season, I believe.

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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Adam_P]
      #894503 - Thu Jan 26 2012 11:28 PM

everything I have read have put the Indians right at $70mil with all the arb-eligible players added. that includes Carmona-Hernandez though.

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2011/10/2012-cleveland-indians-payroll-chart.html

it's at $59mil right now there but doesn't include Asdrubel (projected $6-8mil) and Raffy Perez (projected $2-4mil) in their arbitration hearings.

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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: no_logo_required]
      #894522 - Thu Jan 26 2012 11:49 PM

I thought I heard it was something like $62-64, but I'd be inclined to trust your numbers over my less-than-stellar recollections.

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Re: Report: Rockies Trade Kevin Slowey To Indians [Re: Adam_P]
      #894524 - Thu Jan 26 2012 11:51 PM

that number is about right if you subtract Carmona-Hernandez ($7mil). not sure when or if he comes back over which means there's no way of knowing right now if or how much of his contract to count.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #896439 - Thu Feb 02 2012 03:50 PM

Baseball's worst contracts
By Matt Snyder

This past weekend I posted a blog about Joe Mauer feeling healthy so far this offseason and in the comments section a small discussion about bad contracts broke out. So, I figured, why not sort through all the contracts in baseball and come up with some of the worst? We're still more than two weeks from pitchers and catchers reporting, but it would be shocking to see a free agent sign for a contract that would rank among the worst in baseball -- considering the players left unsigned. So the timing works well. Let's check it out and discuss, shall we? If there's one thing baseball fans love, it's arguing.

We'll go at this in three different parts. First (now) is infielders and catchers, Thursday we'll look at the outfielders and designated hitters while Friday is pitchers.

One last note before we proceed. The way baseball's salary structure is set up, the overwhelming majority of the players can't make big bucks -- relatively speaking, of course -- until they've been in the league for about three years. Then there is arbitration, so they aren't free agents for another few years. So, most of the time, the overpaid players were underpaid -- again, relatively speaking -- when they were young studs. So you could argue it evens out. And I would in many cases. I also don't begrudge any of them for making gobs of money to play a game. They have a special talent that people pay to watch. They deserve a huge cut. So let's just try to stay on topic here, OK? Great. Let's dive in.

Catcher

Worst: Joe Mauer, Twins
Remaining contract: 7 years, $161 million


Mauer is obviously coming off a disastrous season and should improve greatly in the next few years. That being said, his health issues throughout 2011 were a bit of a wakeup call on how bad that contract will likely prove to be. He has to remain behind the plate to be worth anywhere close to $23 million per season, and what are the chances that he stays productive and healthy as a full-time catcher for the next seven years? If he moves to first base, he's a well-below average power hitter at the position and that harms the offense as a whole. While Mauer is certainly a stand-up guy and a hometown hero, it's hard to see this contract coming close to paying off for Minnesota in the end.

Honorable Mention
Victor Martinez, Tigers: This one is mitigated by the fact that the Tigers have insurance (that will reportedly pay almost half), but he's still owed $38 million over the next three seasons. In fairness to the Tigers, though, this wasn't really a bad deal when signed. They didn't know he'd get badly hurt and they'd then sign Prince Fielder to a gargantuan contract. It's just that there aren't really any other bad catcher contracts. I'm even cheating by putting Martinez here because he's predominantly a DH. I just had to list someone here.

First Base

Worst: Ryan Howard, Phillies
Remaining contract: 5 years, $125 million


The achillies injury wasn't taken significantly into account because there's no way the Phillies knew that was coming. Still, this deal was signed in April of 2010 but is just now kicking in for the start of the 2012 season. We're talking about a guy who hit .253 and only had a .488 slugging percentage last season. Jose Reyes and Shane Victorino had higher marks in slugging, which is a power stat. The 33 home runs and 116 RBI look good, but Howard is set to make $25 million per season for the next five years. He also hit just .105 with a .263 slugging percentage in the 2011 NLDS, where the Phillies lost in five games to the Cardinals due predominantly to a lack of offense. When Howard is 36 and making $25 million, it'll be an albatross of a contract.

Honorable Mention
Albert Pujols, Angels: It's actually a huge bargain for the next two seasons, when Pujols will make a combined $28 million, but by the time you get to age 42 and $30 million per year, it's pretty rough. The Angels are counting on having already made their money by then. And they very well might do so, which is why he's only in "Honorable Mention." We'll see.

Prince Fielder, Tigers: Similar to Pujols, the nine-year, $214 million deal doesn't look bad until several years down the road. We'll see, part two.

Mark Teixeira, Yankees: Teixiera is similar to Howard in several ways. He is actually coming off back-to-back seasons of sub-.500 slugging percentages (Howard was only below in '11) while getting most of his value from home runs and RBI, the latter of which is a team stat. The difference is Teixeira is a great defender and is owed slightly less ($115 million and change in five years). And he is completely healthy, which bodes better in his chances to right the ship these next few years.

Second Base

Worst: Dan Uggla
Remaining contract: 4 years, $52.8 million


Uggla salvaged what could have been an awful 2011 season by getting insanely hot in the second half. He ended with a career-high 36 homers, but that's about all that looks good, on the whole. He hit .233/.311/.453 with 156 strikeouts, poor defense and a career-low 22 doubles. He'll be 35 in the final year of his contract.

Honorable Mention
Chase Utley, Phillies: Past performance means he's probably earned this, but $30.575 million for the next two seasons seems awfully high for a 33-year-old coming off a .259/.344/.425 season.

Brian Roberts, Orioles: Let's just hope he finds a way to recover from all the post-concussion symptoms for the sake of his quality of life. The Orioles have far bigger problems than the $20 million Roberts will make the next two seasons.

Tsuyoshi Nishioka, Twins: OK, so $6 million for two seasons isn't much money to any team in the majors, but Nishioka was probably the worst position player in baseball last year and it's hard to see any improvement.

Shortstop

Worst: Jose Reyes, Marlins
Remaining contract: 6 years, $106 million


I don't think this was an awful signing at all, from a certain point of view. The Marlins wanted to make a splash and Reyes is the type of player that can single-handedly energize an entire lineup ... when he's in it. Yep, there's that qualifier and that's why he's here. Leg injuries -- on a player who relies on speed -- have limited Reyes to 295 games the past three seasons. Can he stay healthy for the next six? That's a tall order. Again, though, I don't think this one is egregious, and it's possible he ends up well worth the money. It's just that there aren't many bad contracts at shortstop and this represents a huge risk.

Honorable Mention
Derek Jeter, Yankees: What he means to the franchise -- in addition to how much money the Yankees can afford to spend -- says this deal isn't hurting anyone at all. But if you look at what he's likely to provide in the next two seasons, there's no way it's worth the $33 million Jeter is owed. Again, though, Jeter has earned the "pension," if you will, by this point in his legendary career.

Third Base

Worst: Alex Rodriguez, Yankees
Remaining contract: 6 years, $149 million


If A-Rod hit the free agent market right now, what would he get ... half that contract? He's 36, he hasn't played in more than 138 games since 2007 and is coming off a season where he hit .276/.362/.461. I have no doubt if he stays healthy he has another two or even three great seasons left in him, but he's set to make at least $20 million during the season in which he turns 42.

Also, there are marketing bonuses in the contract for several home-run milestones from A-Rod's 660th to 763rd home runs (he currently has 629). It's probably not worth getting into in this space, because if A-Rod actually breaks the home run record, the Yankees will be rolling in the promotional dough from the event(s) and aftermath.

Honorable Mention
Brandon Inge, Tigers: When the Tigers signed Fielder and announced Miguel Cabrera was moving to third base, it made Inge a $5.5-million backup for the 2012 season.

On the other hand ...

Evan Longoria, Rays: Even if the Rays pick up all their club options on Longoria -- which they surely will, barring major injury -- the All-Star third baseman is only owed $40.5 million over the next five seasons. He's only 26 years old and already has two Gold Gloves, 113 career homers, an .874 career OPS and three postseason appearances in just four seasons. He's received MVP votes in all four of his seasons at the majors. He'll make $4.5 million in 2012 while A-Rod will make $29 million. Now that is a club-friendly contract, one that is surely the envy of general managers -- and certainly owners -- across the league.


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Punchsmack]
      #896442 - Thu Feb 02 2012 03:54 PM


Part 2 of Worst Baseball Contracts
By Matt Snyder

As we continue our look at the most cumbersome contracts in baseball, today we'll look at outfielders and designated hitters. We covered the infield and catchers Wednesday and will look at pitchers Friday. As a reminder, we're looking at what is left on the contract, not what the player has been paid through the duration of the deal.

Left Field

Worst: Vernon Wells, Angels
Remaining contract: 3 years, $74 million


Man, this was a tough call because it's a crowded field (see below), but we'll go with Wells because the average annual value remaining on the contract is insane. He hit .218/.248/.412 last season and had a negative WAR, meaning a replacement-level player was better than a guy making over $25 million for the season. At age 33, he could certainly bounce back, but it's hard to see him all of a sudden becoming worth as much money as he's making.

Honorable Mention

Carl Crawford, Red Sox: There are six years and $128 million left on the deal, and I feel like many will argue that Crawford's remaining contract is worse than Wells'. I'm willing to give the 30-year-old Crawford a mulligan for his catastrophic first season in Boston. Next year at this time we'll know a lot more.

Alfonso Soriano, Cubs: Amazingly, he still has three years and $57 million left. Wow.

Jason Bay, Mets: In two seasons for the Mets, Bay has hit .251/.337/.386 (what an ugly slugging percentage for a supposed power hitter) with just 18 homers in 218 games. He still has two years and $36.25 million left, too, in addition to a $3 million buyout should the Mets not pick up his option year.

Center Field

Worst: Alex Rios, White Sox
Remaining Contract: 3 years, $38.5 million


While his teammate got much of the blame last year in terms of the White Sox's shortfall -- and you'll see him below -- Rios was pretty awful himself. He hit .227/.265/.348, which was good for a 65 OPS-plus (if you don't know what that is, trust me, it's embarrassingly bad). He actually posted a negative 1.5 WAR, meaning -- according to the stat -- that he single-handedly cost the White Sox a win and a half just by being in the lineup when he was. And now, thanks to that contract, he's untradeable.

Honorable Mention

Actually, I've got nothing here. Once one-time center fielders' contracts get too big they are usually shoved to the corners. The big-money guys here (Matt Kemp, Curtis Granderson, etc.) are fairly compensated.

Right Field

Worst: Jayson Werth, Nationals
Remaining contract: 6 years, $116 million


Very easy choice. I fully expect a bounce-back season from Werth this year, as several things didn't go his way last season. That being said, the Nationals are paying Werth like he's a superstar all the way until the season in which he turns 38. He wasn't even a superstar his last year in Philadelphia, when he was 31.

Honorable Mention

Nick Markakis, Orioles: There's a reason you only hear about other teams asking for Adam Jones in a trade and not Markakis. The latter is due $43.05 million over the next three seasons while he hit .284 with 15 homers and 73 RBI last season. You need more offense than that from a corner outfielder in order to pay him almost $15 million a year.

Designated Hitter

Worst: Adam Dunn, White Sox.
Remaining contract: 3 years, $44 million


Another easy one. Like Werth, I also expect Dunn to bounce back, but there's no way he can be good enough to earn his full contract over the next three years, especially considering how bad he was last season. He was historically awful with the bat -- there's really no need to rehash the gruesome details at this point -- and that's all he does. And if he does field, his value actually decreases because he's such a butcher with the glove.

Honorable Mention

Travis Hafner, Indians: Nitpicky here, but Pronk will make $13 million this season. He's only averaged 91 games per year the past four seasons. No one else really warrants mention, because Big Papi, for example, is still worth the big bucks.

On the Other Hand ...

Justin Upton, Diamondbacks: Thanks to an early Longoria-type extension, Upton is set to make $46.109 million over the next four seasons. He made just under $4.5 million last season, when he finished fourth in a crowded NL MVP field. Since Upton is only 24, the D-Backs will have to pony up again -- and probably in huge fashion -- to lock him up through his prime, but for now this is a very team-friendly contract.

Special Cases

Bobby Bonilla, Mets: This is both hilarious and sad at the same time. When the Mets bought out Bonilla's $5.9 million contract in 2000, they agreed to repay him with interest starting 11 years later. Beginning July 1, 2011, the Mets are paying Bonilla an annual salary of roughly $1.2 million until 2035. Or around $35 million in all. In 2012, the Mets will pay Bonilla more than the following regulars/rotation members: Daniel Murphy, Ike Davis, Lucas Duda, Josh Thole, Ruben Tejada, Jonathon Niese and Dillon Gee.

Manny Ramirez, Dodgers: We'll ignore that the Red Sox are paying Manny B. Manny $2 million per year until he's 54 because he helped bring them two World Series titles. But the Dodgers are paying Ramirez $8.33 million in 2012 and 2013. Assuming Clayton Kershaw gets more in arbitration, that means Manny will be the Dodgers' sixth highest-paid player this season. Of course, Frank McCourt is still going to make a billion dollar profit, so ...


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Punchsmack]
      #896444 - Thu Feb 02 2012 03:58 PM

I saw those two articles and thought it might spark some good discussions on here. A lot of those contracts seemed good or even great at the time only to be proved wrong, very wrong in some cases.

I think these are the examples when the small markets are trading away assets or letting free agents walk. And really, I don't blame them (or us). A team like NY or Philly can eat a bad decision without much thought. A team like the Indians can't do that (using the Werth deal - had they signed that, they would be ruined).

Heck, even the Mauer signing is on here. And there are a ton of people that used the "see, even the Twins can keep their mega stars"....well, it's not going so well for them now and it will probably only get worse too.

Part three of this series will be due out tomorrow. I'll try to remember to paste it.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Punchsmack]
      #896449 - Thu Feb 02 2012 04:13 PM

so, if this was done in 2011 at this time, the Yankees would have had C(Posada - now retired), 1B (Tex), SS (Jeter), and 3B (A-Rod) either as worst or honorable mention?

I think he's going about it wrong. I think he should have analyzed the salaries as a percentage of team total payroll (and what they are or are NOT contributing on the field) to figure things out. Obviously, the Yankees don't care much that they give out those contracts, but it cripples the Twins budget to just appear on his list once.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Punchsmack]
      #896452 - Thu Feb 02 2012 04:17 PM

also, Manny and Bonilla's agents were smart to get those types of deals.

with all the stories about how athletes go through all their money so quickly, why not get a little bit more from teams (or alot in Bonilla's case) and have that money continue to come to you a little at a time over the next 20 years.

basically, forced financial prudence and protection if your investments go bad.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #896459 - Thu Feb 02 2012 04:31 PM

No doubt. The Manny and Bonilla contracts are freaking awesome! Talk about stupid decisions by their owners.

I wanted to post this because it's so easy to spend someone else's money when it's the team you're following and a player you want to keep. There was no way we could have signed CC and Lee with Hafner's deal. That's not to say the Indians FO is without blame, they are a little too thifty, but I understand their uneasiness in this area.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Punchsmack]
      #896572 - Fri Feb 03 2012 07:13 AM

J/K

Heads up Casey Kotchman might be on his way to 1st base.


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Dave
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: ClayM57]
      #896575 - Fri Feb 03 2012 07:26 AM

Arguably, one of the top five 1B FA's available ...

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: ClayM57]
      #896580 - Fri Feb 03 2012 07:33 AM

I like it. Hopefully he can do as well as he did last year when he hit .306. He's never been a power guy, but he is a plus glove at 1st, with a plus batting average last year.

I also think that Cabrera stands a good chance of winning his arbitration if they do get that far.

Cleveland Indians sign 1B Casey Kotchman; avoid arbitration with Rafael Perez | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/02/cleveland_indians_reportedly_s.html#incart_hbx

As spring training gets closer, the Indians' roster seems to change daily.

General Manager Chris Antonetti, in his second year on the job, continued to remake the Tribe on Thursday. He signed free-agent first baseman Casey Kotchman to a one-year, $3 million deal plus incentives. The signing isn't expected to become official until today.

Earlier Thursday, the Indians reached agreement on a one-year deal with left-hander Rafael Perez to avoid arbitration. Perez will receive $2.005 million plus $25,000 in incentives if he appears in 55 games this season. Perez's signing leaves All-Star shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera as the only unsigned Indian eligible for arbitration.

Cabrera has an arbitration hearing scheduled this month in St. Petersburg, Fla.

Kotchman's arrival tilts manager Manny Acta's lineup even more to the left side of the plate. If Acta chooses, he could have an all left-handed lineup against certain right-hander starters with CF Grady Sizemore (L), SS Cabrera (S), RF Shin-Soo Choo (L), C Carlos Santana (S), DH Travis Hafner (L), 1B Kotchman (L), 2B Jason Kipnis (L), LF Michael Brantley (L) and 3B Lonnie Chisenhall (L).

The signing means Matt LaPorta, starting first baseman last year, is probably out of a job. He has an option left, so he could be sent to Class AAA Columbus to clear a spot for Kotchman on the 40-man roster. He could also be traded or make the club as a bench player.

Antonetti has been busy since the end of the World Series. He has added six players to the 40-man roster from outside the organization. He signed free agents Sizemore and Kotchman for a combined $8 million, and traded for right-handers Derek Lowe and Kevin Slowey, infielder Russ Canzler and outfielder Aaron Cunningham.

He has invited 20 players, including 11 from outside the organization, to spring training on minor-league deals.

Kotchman, a fine defensive first baseman, is coming off his best season in the big leagues. He hit .306 (153-for-500) with 24 doubles, two triples, 10 homers and 48 RBI with Tampa Bay. Against righties he hit .313 (110-for-351) with eight homers and 35 RBI, and held his own against lefties at .290 (43-for-148) with two homers and 13 RBI.

In camp, Kotchman will compete with LaPorta, Canzler and Santana at first.

The Indians tried all winter to get a first baseman. They missed on Carlos Pena and Derrek Lee.

Kotchman's 2011 season put him in line for a big raise. He signed a minor-league deal with the Rays last year -- the Indians were talking to him as well -- for $750,000. He made $3.5 million in 2010 with Seattle, but his stock fell when he hit just .217 (90-for-414) in 125 games.

Last year, Kotchman credited his improvement to off-season eye surgery.

Seven Indians were eligible for arbitration in January. Six have signed.

Perez, entering his fifth big-league season with the Indians, filed for $2.4 million after making $1.33 million last year. The Indians offered $1.6 million. He signed for just above the midpoint.

Cabrera is seeking $5.2 million and the Indians have offered $3.75 million. He made $2.025 million last year.

Perez, 29, went 5-2 with a 3.00 ERA in 71 appearances last year. He struck out 33, walked 19 and allowed 59 hits in 63 innings. The opposition hit .253 against him with an on-base percentage of .307.

Lefties hit .237 (28-for-118) with one homer off Perez. Righties hit .270 (31-for-115) with one homer against him. He allowed just seven of 44 inherited runners to score.

Perez has made 70 or more appearances in three of his past four seasons. He tied teammate Joe Smith last season for second in the American League with 71 appearances.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #896606 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:32 AM

alot of under-the-radar good at specific things baseball players this winter.

still going to have one heck of a hill to climb to compete with Detroit, but at least we can see a path to it I suppose.

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Ballpeen
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #896713 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:08 PM

Kotchman is a soild pick-up.



He may not be a .300 hitter, but everything points to him being a solid .280 guy if given the at bats.



He played for the Braves a few years ago and I liked him then (the Braves are the local team and are on TV every night, so I catch 60-70 games a year)....he will be a plus player.

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RocketOptimist
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Ballpeen]
      #896715 - Fri Feb 03 2012 09:14 PM

J/C

I'm really intrigued by this coming season. There was a lot of bright spots last year when the team was healthy. The key to the team, at the risk of a John Maddening baseball, will be the health of the team. If we remain healthy, there's a shot at the division title. I'd argue potential wild card but not with the AL East being the way it is.


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Ballpeen
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: RocketOptimist]
      #896799 - Sat Feb 04 2012 08:25 AM

Forget the wildcard. The division title is the only real route and i am not all that sure that is a real chance.
Detroit is loaded. They might be the best team in baseball, even with Vmart out for the season.



The key for the Tribe IMO is if Sizemore can come back to anything close to what he was 3-4 years ago and the pitching.

I like the addition of Lowe. While he is over the hump, his experience will be valuable, and even though his stats don't reflect it, we has been a solid inning eater which is valuable.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Ballpeen]
      #896966 - Sat Feb 04 2012 10:06 PM

Quote:

Forget the wildcard. The division title is the only real route and i am not all that sure that is a real chance.
Detroit is loaded. They might be the best team in baseball, even with Vmart out for the season.

The key for the Tribe IMO is if Sizemore can come back to anything close to what he was 3-4 years ago and the pitching.

I like the addition of Lowe. While he is over the hump, his experience will be valuable, and even though his stats don't reflect it, we has been a solid inning eater which is valuable.





they are still discussing adding the 2nd wild card this season. if so, then that opens up the wild card back to teams like Cleveland (DET, ANA/TX, NYY/BRS/TB - 3 division winners. 1 of losers gets wild card. That still leaves 2 teams to compete with, but really at that point you are competing against getting to 90 wins (Rays and Angels perhaps))

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898559 - Fri Feb 10 2012 10:29 AM

nothing new other than detroit remains interested, and he likely helps more in 2013 than 2012, but i would be upset if they get Cespedes.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120...t-visit-Detroit

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898560 - Fri Feb 10 2012 10:37 AM

also, here's a guy I really like that Stark (ESPN) think the Rays will look to be moving. they could use some bullpen help, which is where we could deal from:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/stark_jayson/id/7560293/5-players-get-traded-spring-training

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/6243/jeff-niemann

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1oldMutt
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898654 - Fri Feb 10 2012 02:01 PM

Anyone seen the Indians Ink site (forums) and the possible sale of the Indians by Dolans?
They name Gilbert as an interested owner. I know he cant with his casino ties but Mike Iilitch has casino ties and I believe the Tiger are in his wife Marians name.

There's some interesting things out there about this and I didnt post links because of some of our rules. Check it out though!


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: 1oldMutt]
      #898688 - Fri Feb 10 2012 03:29 PM

the stars are aligning for a sale. we have no contract obligations after 2012 (after signing Asdrubel to a 1yr deal today). yes, we have lots of youngsters under team control, but no actual contract obligations (can always 'not' offer arbitration). owners usually do that so a new owner has a clean deck with which to work. you certainly can't get it by accident.

be careful what you wish for though. Gilbert buying the team is a pipe-dream IMO. He wouldn't push huge $$$ into the team as he'd still be tied by the revenue it brings. And, he would take bad PR for it (it would at least take a year or two though). I think he's smart enough to know that and avoid it.

If it's anyone other than Gilbert (who would have financial incentive to have a team near his casino 81 times a year), then the Indians are the perfect MLB team to buy right now. It takes a year or two to sell, then the new owners have 3-4 years to say they "tried to make things work in Cleveland"

2018 there is an opt-out for the Indians in the lease and they can pursue other cities (and the opt-in is only a series of 3yr leases).


BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR!

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Dave
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898874 - Sat Feb 11 2012 08:47 AM

Cleveland Indians sign SS Asdrubal Cabrera to 1-year, $4.55 million deal to avoid arbitration

Saturday, February 11, 2012, 12:50 AM
By Paul Hoynes
The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio — The Indians kept their streak of avoiding salary arbitration intact Friday, while topping $60 million in payroll by signing All-Star shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera to a one-year contract worth $4.55 million.

General Manager Chris Antonetti has 14 players under contract for an estimated $63 million. The Indians have not had a player go to arbitration since 1991.

Cabrera, 26, was scheduled to go to his hearing Wednesday in St. Petersburg, Fla. He would have been the first Indians player to go to arbitration since Greg Swindell and Jerry Browne, but the sides settled for just above the midpoint of their two salary figures.

The midpoint between Cabrera's salary request of $5.2 million and the Indians offer of $3.75 million was $4.475 million.

"We're very pleased we could get a settlement done with Asdrubal and avoid the arbitration process," Antonetti said.

In the past, the Indians have signed arbitration-eligible players to one-year deals and continued to negotiate multiyear deals during spring training and the early part of the regular season. Such could be the case with Cabrera and the Indians.

"We're open-minded to multiyear deals with a wide variety of players," Antonetti said. "But there has to be interest on both sides and we have to align on value and term."

Cabrera, Shin-Soo Choo and Rafael Perez are entering their fifth big-league seasons after filing for arbitration in January and signing one-year deals. They will become free agents after 2013, which could make them reluctant to sign a multiyear deal.

The 2011 season was a big one for the switch-hitting Cabrera. He started the All-Star Game for the American League after hitting .293 (105-for-358) in the first half. For the season he hit .273 (165-for-604) with 32 doubles, three triples, 25 homers and 92 RBI.

He led the Indians in runs (87), hits (165), RBI (92) and stolen bases (17), while setting a club record for homers by a shortstop.

After the season, Cabrera was awarded the Silver Slugger for being the top-hitting AL shortstop. It earned him a $50,000 bonus. Cleveland's chapter of the Baseball Writers Association of America named him Man of the Year, and he was honored as Cleveland's top professional athlete by the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission.

Cabrera set career highs in almost every offensive category last year. Before hitting 25 homers last year, he'd hit just 18 in his big-league career. Antonetti said the spike in Cabrera's performance may have played a part in a settlement taking longer than expected.

"We're happy that we have Asdrubal signed and are hoping he can build on last year as a player," Antonetti said. "The same production might not be there, but as a player we're hoping he continues to mature, develop and be more consistent."

Seven Indians filed for arbitration in January. They signed for a total of $22.69 million.

"The final numbers didn't deviate from what we expected the total to be," Antonetti said.

Last year the Indians' Opening Day payroll for the 25-man roster was $49.4 million. This year's payroll, with 11 spots unfilled, could climb to between $65 million and $70 million.


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Adam_P
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dave]
      #898875 - Sat Feb 11 2012 09:06 AM

Well, we'd better have fun watching Asdrubal this season, because it'll be the last we see of him in a Tribe uniform.

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Dave
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Adam_P]
      #898883 - Sat Feb 11 2012 09:45 AM

Forget the Yankees and Red Sox, we can now no longer compete inside our our division payroll-wise. Take away the 8-9 million they would be paying Carmona (or whatever his name is) if he were eligible, and their 2012 payroll is around $55M, or approx 50% of the Tigers, White Sox, and Twins payrolls.
It gets a little scary when you look around for prospective owners that would be looking to keep the team here. Who is out there besides the Lerner family or Dan Gilbert? It seems clear that the Dolan family does not have the wherewithal, financially, to compete in the big-boy league.


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Adam_P]
      #898892 - Sat Feb 11 2012 10:36 AM

Quote:

Well, we'd better have fun watching Asdrubal this season, because it'll be the last we see of him in a Tribe uniform.




Asdrubel has another year of arbitration. We "control" his rights for 2013 as well.

--------------------
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-Coach Pettine


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dave]
      #898893 - Sat Feb 11 2012 10:40 AM

ok, not 100% sure because noone has completely solid numbers. but everything I have read has the Indians at $72mil w/ Carmona/Hernandez and $64 without him (all assuming Asdrubel got just about the amount he did)

but....



it's not the Dolan's (at least not entirely). the Tigers are the only MLB team operating at a loss and even then it's $15-20mil per year on a $130mil payroll (so they could "break even" at $100mil).

Detroit's Metro is 2.5X bigger. except for last year (which we dipped down in payroll to clear the decks to hopefully retain some of our youth) we have outspent our division mates in $/population (via Forbes).

Gilbert might pump a few extra million the first few years to build goodwill, but he's not going to make us a $100mil payroll club.

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Adam_P
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898895 - Sat Feb 11 2012 10:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, we'd better have fun watching Asdrubal this season, because it'll be the last we see of him in a Tribe uniform.




Asdrubel has another year of arbitration. We "control" his rights for 2013 as well.




Misread the article...thought it said he would be a free agent in 2013, not after.

So, we'd better have fun watching Asdrubal this season and next season, because it'll be the last we see of him in a Tribe uniform. Then again, if he's having a really good year this year, knowing the way the Indians operate they might just deal him at the deadline to a contender for some prospects.

Heir to Jeter? Probably.


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Adam_P]
      #898899 - Sat Feb 11 2012 10:52 AM

ignoring that the Dolans have signed extensions to many of the young corps that we have had in the past and that we have no contract obligations beyond 2012, so we will have $$ in the budget to make such deals for Asdrubel and Choo.

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Adam_P
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898901 - Sat Feb 11 2012 10:57 AM

Who have they extended recently that is the best player at his position in the AL, and was an arguable MVP candidate?

Cabrera is going to get a monster contract from a team that can simply afford to pay more than the Dolans can pay or are willing to pay (and to hear those familiar with the situation talk recently, its more of the latter).


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Adam_P]
      #898906 - Sat Feb 11 2012 11:20 AM

Hafner was the best or 2nd best (Ortiz) DH in MLB and an elite power hitter.
Sizemore was the best CF in MLB (some may have argued Beltran I suppose)

they had an $80mil payroll and were losing money when CC, Lee (both who would have commanded top dollar) and Victor were coming due (I think Victor would have signed below market value, but we got Masterson back, so can't really complain)

anyways, we have Hafner ($13mil), Sizemore ($9mil), Carmona/Hernandez($7-8mil if he gets a visa), and Lowe ($5mil) all coming off the books. That's $35 million dollars that we can use to extend our own. Probably $10-15mil gets eaten up by our arbitration guys (we have a bunch due raises), so that still leaves more than $20mil.

--------------------
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-Coach Pettine


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Adam_P
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898912 - Sat Feb 11 2012 11:51 AM

Cabrera is going to want, and command, just a little bit more than the $4 million a year that Sizemore got, and probably more than the $13 or $14 million a year that Hafner got. I've got a feeling its going to take $15+ million a year over at least 5 years to keep Asdrubal in Cleveland, barring some crazy drop-off in his production this season.

Sizemore also wasn't the best CF in baseball (if he ever was at all) when he signed his deal with the Indians. He'd played one year in the big leagues, and they pounced on the chance to lock up a promising looking kid with a deal that was good for them.

As for Hafner? Not gonna touch that one, other than to say I have my suspicions as to why his health and performance fell off so sharply over the past couple seasons.

I'm glad you think that Asdrubal is going to sign a long term deal with the Indians. I'm just saying don't be upset or surprised when it doesn't happen.


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Adam_P]
      #898914 - Sat Feb 11 2012 12:03 PM

1. I don't expect Asdrubel's power to maintain what it was last year. You could be right that he'll be a $15mil/year player. I was thinking $10-12mil/year, but that's not out of the question.
2. Yeah, we were smart and locked up Grady early after a fantastic year. Grady's baseball-reference page and I'll let others decide if he was among or the best CF (in addition to his great defense).
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sizemgr01.shtml
2005-2008 22-38SBs/year, 22-33HR/year, 34-532Bs/year, OPS+ 123-133


Now, with Asdrubel, we might end up wanting to keep Choo more if he rebounds along with Masterson. So, maybe we do end up letting him walk or trading him. But, it will depend on who we consider the most important pieces for the build moving forward.

--------------------
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-Coach Pettine


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898917 - Sat Feb 11 2012 12:21 PM

oh, also looked at the "why" it was only a 6yr $24mil contract. we were eating up his arbitration years + up to 3 years after (we declined the 2012 option but signed him to a 1yr deal, so effectively got that one at a reduced rate)

so, the first years were really reduced despite the huge production because that is what MLB does to it's young players through the team control process.

--------------------
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-Coach Pettine


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Adam_P
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #898923 - Sat Feb 11 2012 01:17 PM

Grady's play in 2006 through 2008 didn't earn him the contract that he signed prior to the start of the 2006 season...

Do you think the Dolans would give Asdrubal a 6-year, $70 million deal, assuming he maintains his level of play this year? I don't.

Quote:

oh, also looked at the "why" it was only a 6yr $24mil contract. we were eating up his arbitration years + up to 3 years after (we declined the 2012 option but signed him to a 1yr deal, so effectively got that one at a reduced rate)




That just bolsters my point. They won't have arbitration years to eat up for Asdrubal.


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Adam_P]
      #898934 - Sat Feb 11 2012 03:02 PM

yeah, I had thought we locked up Grady after 2006, not before. He still had one heck of a year in 2005 and we locked him up past arbitration.

we'll see what happens with the current young corps. we won't keep them all but hopefully we will keep the ones we need the most.

without a shadow of a doubt, that's the exact type of deal we would want him to sign. not sure if he'd take it though. but, it's the fact that the fans think that way that is the reason I believe the Tribe is in the last few years in Cleveland. and a Dolan sale of the team (to anyone but Gilbert who I don't think will want to buy the bad PR) will be the first step in it.

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Dawg in Dayton
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #899101 - Sun Feb 12 2012 09:07 AM

Quote:

Gilbert might pump a few extra million the first few years to build goodwill, but he's not going to make us a $100mil payroll club




I need this explained to my dumb ass...

I'm much more an NFL Cap person...

Even with no Cap in MLB...I don't get the thinking that Gilbert would 1) NOT want the team...and 2) NOT do some spending for top talent...

My simple mind thinks this way...

Put a Winning product on the field and Progressive will again be near or at Sell-Out constantly...

I know there's Revenue Sharing...I know we're not a Huge Market...But I also know the benefits of having a World Series Championship...And the $$$ that comes with it...

I also don't get this Casino thang...What's that all about???

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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dawg in Dayton]
      #899106 - Sun Feb 12 2012 09:25 AM

I don't see Gilbert (or anyone else) just throwing money into the team without some hope of getting it back. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who operates at a loss. He might do so if he had a team that desperately needed one player to win it all, but he still wants to end up in the black. While it is difficult to get information on NBA teams' finances ..... the Cavaliers made a record $30 million last year (they didn't have to pay James/Z, and no luxury tax last year) .... and I bet that they didn't lose a whole lot in the prior years either.

As far as MLB ........ I believe that MLB rules still prohibit anyone who owns or operates a casino from owning an MLB team.

There have been "stretches" of the rule, like a wife owning the casino while the husband is a general partner in the Yankees, for example, but I wouldn't expect them to relax the rules for Cleveland.

Besides, where is this supposed stuff that says that Dolan is looking to sell? I haven't seen anything from any kind of reliable source.

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Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #899148 - Sun Feb 12 2012 12:06 PM

I'm anti-Dolan, as most know around here, but I also don't think Dan Gilbert would somehow turn this into some upper echelon franchise with a top 5 payroll.

It would take an owner with the money of an NFL-type owner to do that. I understand the economics of MLB and understand how hard it is to give out a top tier contract to a top tier player. However, I also think the Dolans use that as a crutch to do nothing. They love to buy on the cheap, and sell high, and winning is not the top priority.

They showed so much promise last year, yet what exactly did they do to get better? Casey Kotchman? Derek Lowe?

Dan Gilbert is a good owner for the NBA, probably the perfect kind of guy. It's easier to dump a bad contract in the NBA, even with the new CBA, I think it's going to continue to be that way.

Dan Gilbert created a bad contract in Larry Hughes, none of us really blamed him, because it was the best move possible, but he was able to get rid of that contract, and actually get something in return (Delonte). In baseball, you're stuck with that deal unless you trade it away with other resources, and pay most of the bad contract you're unloading.

I don't think Dan Gilbert will or should go after the Indians.

--------------------

@dpaoloni


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Dave
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #899152 - Sun Feb 12 2012 12:35 PM

According to Forbes Magazine, Gilbert's wealth is in excess of 1.4 Billion. Forbes also lists Norma, Nancy, and Randy Lerner as each having more than 1 Billion. I can't think of any other Cleveland family that approaches that kind of wealth. Possibly, Peter Lewis of Progressive Insurance, but he is 77 with failing heath. If the Indians are to remain in Cleveland, someone is going to have to step forward with about 500 Million to spend. If we are destined to be a 2 sport town, like Buffalo or Cinci, please God, let it be basketball that we lose and not baseball. With that in mind, I wouldn't care if Gilbert sold the Cavs to a Chinese consortium for a gazillion yen, and bought the Indians. I think he would run the team like he cared about winning. I just think that while the Dolan's may be rich, they are not filthy-rich, and cannot afford the price of poker at that particular table (MLB).

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dawg in Dayton]
      #899179 - Sun Feb 12 2012 03:04 PM

no problem, MLB is setup strangely so it is tough to know unless you follow it closely.

1. Revenue Sharing - very limited as far as money and which teams get it (only the "luxury tax" teams pay to redistribute - local TV deals, revenue, etc is not shared). the Indians have only qualified for it one year (2011 hasn't been released from what I have seen but I could have missed it). the Rays, Marlins, Pirates get it pretty much every year but the other teams rotate in and out.

2. Payroll - 3 major things here.
A. Spending money doesn't guarantee wins. Just signing a big FA wouldn't have been enough to turn the tide on the division. Starting pitchers offer more "win for the dollar" but they also get hurt more often. Power hitters can get pitched around and taken relatively out of the game if they are not "protected" Look at the Cubs, Mets, Dodgers for teams that spend but don't win. Without the backup of a revenue stream (local TV being the big one), spending and losing that kind of $$$ on the Indians would absolutely crush the financials of whoever owned the Tribe.

B. Attendance has not followed the Tribe's winning % the past decade. In good years and in bad years the attendance has remained relatively consistent (except the year after the Lee/Victor trades where it expectedly dropped a ton). So, even getting those wins has now shown that the fans will follow.

C. If Gilbert only moderately spent (let's say $85-90 instead of $70-80 that Dolan's have been spending), then he would get a few years of goodwill but then the fans would turn on him too if he did not have a consistent winner. Despite that he would still be competing against the Tigers who spend $130mil/year and the White Sox who spend $100-120mil/year. And both of whome will probably spend more once they get new local TV deals.

that bad PR would then affect the Cavs as well as he's the owner for both.





and the sellout streak was a remnant of the Browns leaving, the Indians being good for the first time in 38 years, a new ballpark, and the Cavs running a 1950s style offense (and the Price/Daugherty/Nance era had just ended). really, it was the perfect storm and Jacobs spent once the $$$ was coming in (not before), still lost key pieces (albert, manny, kenny, etc.) and got out once he realized the Browns were back, and the local TV deals were changing the revenue stream (and before LeBron really changed things).

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #899196 - Sun Feb 12 2012 04:47 PM

you can argue that, and there is some validity, but the minute the dolans took over, the set the tone for how things were going to be run, and the fans answered by not showing up. Yes they were good in 2007, and still had mediocre attendance, but the damage had been done.

I honestly think if the Browns were still around, Jacobs Field still would have packed every night. Those seasons were sold out in what, a day?

Those teams had a commitment to winning, they had the young guys, they brought in veteran guys who could still play to help this team along.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #899198 - Sun Feb 12 2012 04:58 PM

yeah, the Indians FO is very good at most things right now, but still terrible at PR. they mishandle 'how' they do things while maintaining their budget.

also, I don't think Cleveland, in a bad economic time, could sellout the Browns, Cavs, and Indians. the Browns are selling out regardless (for now) and the Cavs had LeBron.

before the CC, Lee, and Victor trades, they were still pulling in 27K in attendance and are expecting it to be back there this season (reason we are back in the low 70mil range for payroll). even selling out, we're talking a low 90mil payroll. still bottom half of the league. just how the revenues go these days. we have to figure out how to compete within the system.

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Alpoe19
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #899213 - Sun Feb 12 2012 06:39 PM

It's hard to say how much the dolans could afford on free agency. Until they open up their books, which will never happen, no one knows for sure how much they could afford. But it's pretty disgusting when they made that move for Jiminez a year ago, that most thought they could mustard up more than Casey Kotchman, Derek Lowe, and Kevin Slowey this offseason. Actions always speak louder than words, and when your main free agent signee, was for one year, 3million, that speaks volumes to fans on how much you're interested in winning. I know Detroit may have a few more people, and draw better, but when they could afford 214 million, and the indians could only afford 3 million, yet again, actions speak louder than words.

I have defended this guy plenty in the past, but I will not anymore. He had his chance to pony up some of his cash, and sign players like Beltran, or Pena, yet he decided to go with the cheap route as usual. I am done with Larry Dolan.


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Alpoe19]
      #899255 - Sun Feb 12 2012 09:06 PM

Detroit increased their salary by $19mil (by estimates) from last season.
Cleveland increased their salary by $23mil (by estimates) from last season.

just saying.



(yeah, they were alot of internal raises that were due, but it is increased payroll, they did go after Pena who rebuffed them despite the Indians offering more. they did go after Beltran but he refused to come here for the second time - first being at the trade deadline last year)

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Dave
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #899445 - Mon Feb 13 2012 02:30 PM

Indians sign Jon Garland to minor league deal, pending physical.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/02/rhp_jon_garland_if_he_passes_p.html


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Assassin51
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dave]
      #899570 - Mon Feb 13 2012 09:59 PM

I like Garland..more middle-relief imo

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Assassin51]
      #900400 - Thu Feb 16 2012 05:38 PM

http://www.freep.com/article/20120216/SPORTS02/120216055/brandon-inge-detroit-tigers

What? I mean Inge has never played 2B. Throw him in there in his mid-30s and see what happens?

Is Detroit just trying to see if they can have the worst defending IF of alltime?

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Dave
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #900548 - Fri Feb 17 2012 12:24 PM

That Tiger infield (Cabrera, Peralta, Inge, and Fielder) will be about as stationary as any I can remember seeing. They're all first basemen.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dave]
      #900598 - Fri Feb 17 2012 03:33 PM

Yup....hard shots and fast runners will be causing them problems all year. Of course, their bats might offset that a bit. Prepare yourself for a lot of softball games with the Tigers.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Punchsmack]
      #900604 - Fri Feb 17 2012 03:56 PM

Might be fun to watch Sizemore, Kipnis, and Brantley lay down some bunts against Cabrera and Fielder.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dave]
      #900613 - Fri Feb 17 2012 04:17 PM

J/C...

My Pirates just locked up the NL... the Burnett domination reclamation begins.



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GO ROCKETS


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dave]
      #900616 - Fri Feb 17 2012 04:20 PM

Quote:

Might be fun to watch Sizemore, Kipnis, and Brantley lay down some bunts against Cabrera and Fielder.




not as fun as watching Verlander get upset from them

http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=17507137

Verlander upset that he isn't capable of throwing to first base

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #900810 - Sat Feb 18 2012 11:06 AM

Plain Dealer's Paul Hoynes previews the AL Central:


In the AL Central, the Detroit Tigers are in a class by themselves, Paul Hoynes writes in his division preview

Saturday, February 18, 2012

By Paul Hoynes, The Plain Dealer

Prince Fielder didn't change the shape of the American League Central when he arrived in Detroit with a nine-year, $214 million contract. The Tigers were already favored to repeat as the division champion this year.

What Fielder did was create the possibility of something beyond a division title for the Tigers. It could also spawn the most range-challenged infield in the division if Miguel Cabrera does, indeed, play third base to go along with Jhonny Peralta at shortstop, Ryan Raburn at second and Fielder at first.

Then again, they combined to hit 103 homers last year. Who needs defense?

"Detroit lost a great player in Victor Martinez and replaced him with a great player in Prince Fielder," said Indians General Manager Chris Antonetti. "They won the division handily [15 games] last year and improved over the winter. They remain the team to beat."

Martinez, who drove in 103 runs for the Tigers last year, will miss this season due to left knee surgery.

Besides the Angels signing Albert Pujols, it's hard to find a position-player signing as big as Fielder. For comparison's sake, take a look at the other four teams in the AL Central and their biggest moves of the winter.

•Indians: They countered Detroit's move by signing a first baseman of their own -- Casey Kotchman for $3 million.

•Royals: They don't need a first baseman with Eric Hosmer, but they did re-sign lefty Bruce Chen and trade for another left-handed starter in Jonathan Sanchez. Shin-Soo Choo, who had his left thumb broken by a Sanchez pitch last year when the Tribe faced the Giants, probably didn't do a backflip over the news.

•Twins: They lost thump with free-agent departures of Michael Cuddyer and Jason Kubel, but they replaced some of it with free-agent Josh Willingham's 29 homers and 98 RBI.

•White Sox: Hard to say free-agent Kosuke Fukudome is going to be a difference-maker, but right now, that's about it for a Chicago team contemplating rebuilding. If not Fukudome, how about rookie manager Robin Ventura, hired by GM Ken Williams after Ozzie Guillen left at the end of last year for Miami? Mark Buehrle and Juan Pierre left through free agency, and outfielder Carlos Quentin and closer Sergio Santos were traded.

Last year was the Tigers' first AL Central championship. It's hard to see them not making it two in a row.

They have the AL batting champion in Cabrera and the Cy Young and MVP winner in right-hander Justin Verlander. Closer Jose Valverde went 49-for-49 in save situations.

What do the Tigers' rivals have to do to upset their plans for a second straight trip to October?

•Indians: Grady Sizemore, Choo and Travis Hafner have to stay healthy to pump more production into the offense.

•Royals: Their starting pitching, led by Chen, has to perform much better than the scouting reports predict.

•Twins: If they can stay healthy, they can have a big bounce-back year from their 99-loss season in 2011. They need catcher Joe Mauer, first baseman Justin Morneau and outfielder Denard Span to stay on the field. The same goes for starters Scott Baker, Nick Blackburn and Francisco Liriano.

•White Sox: They need production from young outfielders Alejandro De Aza and Dayan Viciedo. They also need do-over years from Adam Dunn, Alex Rios and Jake Peavy.


CENTRAL DIVISION

(Teams appear in predicted order of finish)

1. Tigers

2011: 95-67, first place.

Manager: Jim Leyland.

Strengths: It doesn't get much better than Justin Verlander (24-5, 2.40 ERA), closer Jose Valverde (2-4, 2.24, 49 saves), Miguel Cabrera (.344, 30 HR, 111 RBI) and newcomer Prince Fielder (.299, 38, 120). Verlander was the Cy Young and MVP in 2011. Valverde went 49-for-49 in save situations. Cabrera and Fielder slugged .586 and .566, respectively.

Flaws: They lost DH/C/1B Victor Martinez for the season with a left knee injury. The Tigers open spring training talking about Cabrera, the AL's batting champ, moving from first to third base.

Additions: Fielder, 2B/SS Ramon Santiago (re-signed), RHP Octavio Dotel, C Gerald Laird, OF Jerad Head, OF Eric Patterson, RHP Collin Balester.

Subtractions: 2B Carlos Guillen, RF Magglio Ordonez, RHP Brad Penny, RHP Joel Zumaya, 2B Will Rhymes, RHP Ryan Perry.

Player to watch: Doug Fister went 8-1 in 11 games, including 10 starts, for the Tigers last year after being acquired from Seattle at the trading deadline.


2. Indians

2011: 80-82, second place.

Manager: Manny Acta.

Strengths: Pitching powered the Indians to an 11-game improvement last year. The rotation has a chance to be competitive with Justin Masterson, Ubaldo Jimenez, Josh Tomlin, Derek Lowe and Kevin Slowey/Jeanmar Gomez. The bullpen, with closer Chris Perez and setup men Vinnie Pestano, Rafael Perez, Tony Sipp, Joe Smith and Frank Herrmann, have been good for a 11/2 seasons.

Weaknesses: Offense is a concern. CF Grady Sizemore, LF Michael Brantley and RF Shin-Soo Choo all missed considerable time last season with injuries. The Indians ranked ninth in runs, while striking out the second-most times in the AL. Signed 1B Casey Kotchman (.306, 10 HR, 48 RBI) to improve defense and stabilize lineup.

Additions: OF Sizemore (re-signed), 1B Kotchman, RHP Lowe, RHP Slowey, RHP Robinson Tejada, RHP Dan Wheeler, RHP Jeremy Accardo, OF Aaron Cunningham, OF/INF Russ Canzler, OF Fred Lewis, RHP Hector Ambriz, RHP Chris Ray, LHP Chris Seddon, C Luke Carlin, C Matt Pagnozzi, INF Andy LaRoche, INF Jose Lopez, OF Felix Pie and OF Ryan Spilborghs.

Subtractions: RHP Chad Durbin, OF Kosuke Fukudome, DH Jim Thome, RHP Josh Judy, INF Luis Valbuena.

Player to watch: 2B Jason Kipnis, if he can stay healthy, should add power and energy to the offense.


3. Royals

2011: 71-91, fifth.

Manager: Ned Yost.

Strengths: The youngest team in the big leagues can hit. Led by Alex Gordon (.303, 23 HR, 87 RBI), Jeff Francouer (.329, 20 HR, 87 RBI), Billy Butler (.291, 19, 95) and Eric Hosmer (.293, 19, 78) they finished sixth in the AL in runs. They'll miss CF Melky Cabrera, but prospect Lorenzo Cain is getting a chance to replace him.

Weaknesses: GM Dayton Moore re-signed lefty Bruce Chen (12-8, 3.77) and traded for hard-throwing but wild Jonathan Sanchez, but K.C.'s starting pitching is suspect. Luke Hochevar (11-11, 4.68), Felipe Paulino (4-6, 5.64), lefty Danny Duffy and converted reliever Aaron Crow will look to fill out the rest of the rotation.

Additions: LHP Chen (re-signed), RHP Sanchez (4-7, 4.26), RHP Jonathan Broxton (84 career saves), LHP Jose Mijares, SS/INF Yuniesky Betancourt (.252, 13, 68) and 3B Kevin Kouzmanoff.

Subtractions: OF Melky Cabrera, RHP Jesse Chavez, RHP Robinson Tejada, C Jason Kendall, LHP Jeff Francis.

Player to watch: Broxton was the Dodgers' closer until he injured his right elbow early last season. He'd be a great setup man for closer Joakim Soria, who struggled at times last year.


4. White Sox

2011: 70-83, third.

Manager: Robin Ventura.

Strengths: Even with the loss of lefty Mark Buehrle, Chicago should have a decent rotation with John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Phil Humber and Chris Sale. Paul Konerko, year in and year out, is one of the best hitters in the division.

Weaknesses: With the trade of closer Sergio Santos, hard-throwing, but erratic lefty Matt Thornton will get another shot at closing. If Alex Rios and Adam Dunn can't transform themselves from expensive holes in the lineup to productive hitters, the offense is in trouble.

Additions: OF Kosuke Fukudome, LHP Scott Olsen, 1B Dan Johnson, RHP Nestor Molina, RHP Simon Castro, LHP Pedro Hernandez, RHP Daniel Webb and RHP Myles Jaye.

Subtractions: LHP Buehrle, RHP Santos, OF Carlos Quentin, RHP Jason Frasor, INF Omar Vizquel, OF Juan Pierre, C Ramon Castro.

Player to watch: Sale, the White Sox No.1 in 2009, is moving from the bullpen to the rotation.


5. Twins

2011: 63-99, fifth.

Manager: Ron Gardenhire.

Strengths: If C Joe Mauer, OF Denard Span and 1B Justin Morneau can stay healthy, they should help regenerate the second-lowest scoring offense in the AL last year. Free-agent Josh Willingham (.246, 29 HR, 98 RBI) will help as well.

Weaknesses: The Twins used the disabled list 27 times last year, the most in the big leagues. Matt Capps is back as the closer, even though he blew nine saves (15-for-24) last season. No starter managed double-digit wins last year.

Additions: RHP Jason Marquis (8-6, 4.43), Willingham, SS Jamey Carroll (.290, 17 RBI), C Ryan Doumit, RHP Capps (re-signed), RHP Joel Zumaya, LHP Matt Maloney, RHP Jeff Gray and RHP Terry Doyle.

Subtractions: RHP Joe Nathan, RHP Kevin Slowey, OF Michael Cuddyer, OF Jason Kubel, RHP Jim Hoey, LHP Jose Mijares.

Player to watch: Mauer is coming off a year of injury and illness. Work ethic was questioned last year.


http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/02/post_130.html


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Alpoe19
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dave]
      #900817 - Sat Feb 18 2012 11:32 AM

That's as good as a preview you will see. I agreed with his projected finish of the division. I've always felt it would be a 3 team race, between the tigers, indians, and royals. I would be really surprised if the white sox or twins did much this year. I do like Sele, from the white sox. that guy is devastating to lefties. I think the twins will be awful again this year. Not much of a rotation, or bullpen. All things equal, I think the tigers win the division, leaving the indians and royals looking for the 2 wild cards.

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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Alpoe19]
      #901185 - Mon Feb 20 2012 06:51 AM

The Tigers will have to get hurt, or simply under perform to not win the division. I'd be surprised if they don't win 100+ ballgames this year.

The Tribe needs to be thinking about winning 90-92 games for a wildcard.

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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






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Assassin51
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Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: Ballpeen]
      #901959 - Wed Feb 22 2012 10:51 PM

j/c
web page Aaron Gleeman
Feb 22, 2012, 3:49 PM EST
3 Comments
Getty Images
Last week the Indians and Jon Garland agreed to a minor-league contract and as usual with such deals it was pending a physical exam.

Those are usually just a formality, but Garland is coming back from shoulder surgery and Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer reports that he never took the physical exam … so the Indians canceled the signing.

Garland was scheduled to be examined Monday and it’s unclear if he simply no-showed or told the team in advance. Either way, the rehabbing 32-year-old right-hander is back on the open market.


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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: Assassin51]
      #902195 - Thu Feb 23 2012 06:00 PM

J/C...

Braun wins his appeal - no suspension.

lol. Who didn't see that coming?

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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: bigdatut]
      #902198 - Thu Feb 23 2012 06:31 PM

i love how he challenged the chain of custody and won. and says he's vindicated because the guy didn't overnight the sample because he thought it was closed.

braun didn't contest that he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. i'm thinking he may get to play, but people will still label him a doper.

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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: no_logo_required]
      #902262 - Thu Feb 23 2012 09:45 PM

Quote:

but people will still label him a doper.




As they should... he is.

--------------------
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Ballpeen
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: bigdatut]
      #902607 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

but people will still label him a doper.




As they should... he is.






Maybe so, but he will soon move from 60 something on the Yahoo ranking to 5-6-7.

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cfrs15
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: bigdatut]
      #902611 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

but people will still label him a doper.




As they should... he is.




If he is, who cares?

I don't.


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Psydeffect
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: Ballpeen]
      #902612 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:12 PM

Yeah, but he's all but screwed himself out of the hall of fame.

If it looks like a rat, and smells like a rat, it's a rat.


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Psydeffect
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: cfrs15]
      #902613 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

but people will still label him a doper.




As they should... he is.




If he is, who cares?

I don't.




Probably the guys who are playing by the rules and not doping.


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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: no_logo_required]
      #902617 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:21 PM

Quote:

i love how he challenged the chain of custody and won. and says he's vindicated because the guy didn't overnight the sample because he thought it was closed.

braun didn't contest that he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. i'm thinking he may get to play, but people will still label him a doper.




I think the point was......since the lab guy took his sample home and keep it out on the counter (not in the fridge)....who knows if it was his sample or not. Meaning, "so what that the first sample tested positive....prove it was my sample." He took a follow-up test after the fact and passed. Plus, two out of three independent arbitrators ruled in his favor.

I'm not 100% confident he's clean, much like how I feel about most of the NFL labor force and every other professional sports league, but I think I'll give him a pass for now (that might change if MLB states their case in the media).

Has anyone seen Laron Landry recently? That's a body I'd be testing...



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Ballpeen
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: Psydeffect]
      #902618 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:24 PM

Quote:

Yeah, but he's all but screwed himself out of the hall of fame.

If it looks like a rat, and smells like a rat, it's a rat.






I agree with the rat part, and you are right,,,,he does have a little the rat look to him. Not as bad as some, but it's there.



Quit trying to get me in trouble, you brought it up, not me!

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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






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Ballpeen
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: Punchsmack]
      #902619 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:28 PM

No kidding Punch...normal males don't look like that just as you can spot females who have been enhanced....it just isn't normal.


And by normal I am talking fit, buff people, which isn't normal.



Normal is some flab and droop, and a lot smaller than the movies,.

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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.






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jfanent
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: Punchsmack]
      #902620 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:33 PM

Why test him.....he's holding a jar of it.

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Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does.


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Punchsmack
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: jfanent]
      #902625 - Fri Feb 24 2012 08:41 PM

Quote:

Why test him.....he's holding a jar of it.




Exactly. Just like when Mark McGwire had a jug of Andro in his locker during the single season home run chase.

Do you think Laron will be the next David Boston? Beefed up in the offseason, maybe or maybe not legally, and then it ended up affecting his performance on the field next season.

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bigdatut
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: cfrs15]
      #902633 - Fri Feb 24 2012 09:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

but people will still label him a doper.




As they should... he is.




If he is, who cares?

I don't.




I do. I've never liked how the dude plays - now I know he's a cheat.

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GO ROCKETS


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Frenchy
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: bigdatut]
      #902669 - Sat Feb 25 2012 12:13 AM

Surprised no one has posted this yet, anyone not surprised?



Grady Sizemore to miss Opening Day

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Associated Press


PHOENIX -- Grady Sizemore's latest comeback has already stalled.

The Indians' oft-injured, hard-luck outfielder is hurt again.

Sizemore will likely miss Opening Day for Cleveland with a strained lower back, an injury the former All-Star suffered while fielding ground balls as he prepared for what he hoped would be a healthy season.





Sizemore

"I feel awful for the guy," Indians general manager Chris Antonetti said Friday.

The Indians revealed Sizemore's injury one day before they hold their first full-squad workout. The club re-signed Sizemore as a free agent in November after choosing not to exercise a $9 million option on him. But the Indians, perhaps out of some loyalty to Sizemore, decided to bring him back with a one-year, $5 million contract loaded with incentives that could have earned him an additional $4 million.

Now, there's no telling when Sizemore will be ready.

Antonetti, though, will never count him out.

"One thing about Grady is he is very tough minded," Antonetti said. "He is an exceptionally diligent guy. He will overcome it and I'm confident he'll be able to get back and still contribute."

Indians trainer Lonnie Soloff said Sizemore will not do any baseball activities as he's monitored over the next few weeks and undergoes treatment. Soloff said Sizemore had been doing well in his rehab following knee surgery and appeared on track to possibly begin the season on time.

Sizemore has undergone five surgeries the past two years and played in only 210 games the last three seasons because of injuries. His full-speed-ahead style may have caught up with the 29-year-old, who once played in 382 consecutive games and endeared himself to Cleveland fans with hustle that could turn a double into a triple or save an extra-base hit with a crash into the outfield wall to make a catch.

Sizemore played in only 71 games after beginning last season on the disabled list. He made three trips to the DL and underwent right knee surgery Oct. 3, just days after his season ended with a .224 batting average 10 homers, 32 RBIs and zero steals for the first time in his career.

Indians manager Manny Acta hasn't seen a completely healthy Sizemore since joining Cleveland two seasons ago.

"I know," Acta said. "(Former manager Eric Wedge) was a lucky man -- a blessed man -- to be able to see this very talented guy get out there every day and enjoy it. I haven't had that luxury so far, but I enjoy the human being and I've seen him from the other side. I've seen some of it over here, too. But, you know what? It's a long season. Just because he's not ready by Opening Day, doesn't mean he's not going to come on strong and contribute to our ballclub."

With Sizemore sidelined, the Indians will likely move Michael Brantey from left field to center. Shelley Duncan, Aaron Cunningham, Ryan Spilborghs and Felix Pie are among the team's options in left.

"We have Michael, who has been there the majority of the time the last two seasons for us and done a very good job," Acta said. "Also, we have some people in camp that might give us some different options."

The Indians, who were ravaged by injuries last season, have 12 other outfielders in camp. Cleveland opened last season 30-15 and played well in long stretches without Sizemore, so there's reason to believe they can survive again.

"We certainly want Grady on the field and we feel we're a better team when he's on the field playing and producing," Antonetti said. "But, obviously, at the time we signed Grady, we knew that there was some risk, even just around his knee rehab. So we tried to build in better quality alternatives maybe than we had at the start even of last year. Hopefully the guys that are here in camp can take advantage of the opportunity and earn a spot and, when the season starts, potentially contribute if Grady's not ready to go."


Copyright 2012 by The Associated Press
http://espn.go.com/mlb/spring2012/story/...iss-opening-day


I didn't want to sign him, but who would you have signed to replace him? Michael Cuddyer, Josh Willingham, Jonny Gomes, Jason Kubel, Melky Cabrera, David DeJesus, that right there was your choices. I would have signed Josh Willingham to a 3 year deal worth $24 to 27 million! A little more than the twins signed him for.

I'm hoping now that Cunningham wins the LF job, he bats RH, he's young, just what we need.


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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: Indians cancel Jon Garland signing [Re: Punchsmack]
      #902673 - Sat Feb 25 2012 01:07 AM

Like I said earlier about that picture .... he just does not look normal with that monstrous bicep popping out of a fairly normal sized shoulder. (by comparison) His chest also looks smaller by comparison.


Weird. He must just work his biceps all day long ...... or something.

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Hope you survive the experience.

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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Frenchy]
      #902749 - Sat Feb 25 2012 11:38 AM

When it comes to Grady Sizemore, the past is prologue. I feel bad for him because he could have been something special, like Pete Rose with better power and speed. But the Indians are snakebit; every time they invest in a player like Sizemore, or Hafner, or Westbrook, the snake bites them in the ass again. Its easy to see why the Dolan family is reluctant to spend big on their own stars or free agents. I don't think its a winning approach, but I get why they are the way they are.

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Alpoe19
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #902958 - Sun Feb 26 2012 01:47 AM

what is so surprising that sizemore is injured?? Instead of spending 5 million on sizemore, they should've committed more money to a player who isn't injury prone as grady. But it's the indians free agent philosophy of the past decade; buy low, and hope for a high return with a declining player. At some point as a franchise, you just have to bite the bullet, and pay for good, quality talent.

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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Alpoe19]
      #902959 - Sun Feb 26 2012 02:23 AM

We did that with Sizemore, once upon a time, before all of the injuries, didn't we .... and Hafner as well ......... ?

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


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Frenchy
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
      #903286 - Sun Feb 26 2012 11:12 PM

First Sizemore now Chris Perez!

GOODYEAR, Ariz. -- If All-Star closer Chris Perez isn't ready to open the season April 5, manager Manny Acta will stay in-house with his replacement.

The Indians announced Sunday that Perez will miss four to six weeks with a strained left oblique muscle. Acta, Perez and head trainer Lonnie Soloff are optimistic that he'll return in time to open the season.

If not, Acta has a solution.

"Vinnie Pestano will close if Chris is not ready," said Acta. "He's a natural guy to go to."

The Indians have lost center fielder Grady Sizemore (lower back strain) and Perez over the last three days. In the off-season GM Chris Antonetti signed several outfielders and relievers to minor-league deals that included spring training invitations. The fans wanted Antonetti to make a bigger splash, but today Acta has options at both positions because of those moves.

There are three former big-league closers in camp in Dan Wheeler, Chris Ray and Jeremy Accardo. Ray has 51 career saves, Wheeler 42 and Accardo 38. They were brought in to compete for the sixth and seventh spots in the pen, but it's nice to know they would be available at the end of a game should they make the team.

Pestano has three big-league saves and 71 in the minors. Last year he was 1-2 with a 2.32 ERA in 67 appearances. He finished fifth the American League in strikeouts with 84 in 62 innings.

Perez strained his oblique in his first bullpen session Thursday. He stopped throwing after 25 to 30 pitches because of a pain in his left side.

"His body was clearly not ready for the intensity of that bullpen session," said Soloff.

When asked if that meant Perez came to camp out of shape, Soloff said "No, I'm just saying he wasn't prepared for the intensity of the bullpen session."

Perez said he came to camp in good condition.

"What Lonnie meant when he said that is that it was the first day [of camp] and I was going 100 percent," said Perez. "He probably wanted me to go 50 to 75 percent.

"That's not who I am. I get work in at 100 percent. I'm not going to throw a bullpen at 50 percent, miss all my spots and pretty much waste a day. I was doing what I normally do in the bullpen. I felt a cramp, so I think I was a little dehydrated and I pulled it.

"I'm physically ready to go. It wasn't because I came here out of shape. I've been the same [conditioning wise] since I've been here. It was one of those fluke things and we have to move past it."

One thing working in favor of Perez's return for Opening Day is his role -- closer. He doesn't need a lot of innings to get his arm in pitching shape.

"It's definitely a positive," said Soloff. "We won't have to build him up as much."

Perez saved 36 games last year, converting 90 percent (36-for-40) of his save opportunities. He was named to the All-Star Game along with shortstop Asdrubal Cabrera.

Soloff said that a pitcher has to "know thyself" when it comes to the intensity he throws with early in camp.

"He's learned," said Soloff of Perez.

Said Perez, "Lonnie wants me to learn to take my time out there and get ready for Opening Day. It's a process. I'm still young. By no means am I a veteran in this game. I'm still learning my body and learning how to get ready for Opening Day."

Perez didn't know how many innings he'd need to get ready when he's cleared to start pitching. "There's no answer to that," he said. "Last year I was ready after six outings and had 14."

Perez appeared in nine Cactus League games last spring. He also pitched in some minor-league games.

"I did my usual off-season conditioning," said Perez. "I'm ready to go. It's just unfortunate with this oblique thing. I'm strong, my legs are strong, my legs are strong. The timing is just bad.

"I guess it's better that it happens now than a month from now where I'd be guaranteed to miss games."
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/02/chris_perez_has_unspecified_so.html


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Psydeffect
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Frenchy]
      #903743 - Mon Feb 27 2012 07:52 PM

Quote:

There are three former big-league closers in camp in Dan Wheeler, Chris Ray and Jeremy Accardo.




The fantasy nerd in me can't help but to comment here.

I'll be eying this situation closely since I always put off closers until late in drafts. But I kinda like Wheeler out of those 3 guys to win the job.

Watching a Reds game from '99 on FSO tonight, can't wait for the season to get started now. Casey barely looked over 21 back then lol. Where has the time gone?

Edited by Psydeffect (Mon Feb 27 2012 07:53 PM)


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no_logo_required
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Psydeffect]
      #903782 - Mon Feb 27 2012 10:02 PM

might get you a couple weeks, but not sure it'll be worth drafting as Perez is likely to be back (if not opening week, the week after).

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


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GratefulDawg
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #903792 - Mon Feb 27 2012 11:06 PM

The mystery of Indians pitcher Roberto Hernandez is a way of life in baseball-mad Dominican Republic

Published: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 10:35 PM
Paul Hoynes, The Plain Dealer By Paul Hoynes, The Plain Dealer


GOODYEAR, Ariz. -- Roberto Hernandez changed his name and age for a chance to seek fame and fortune in the big leagues. He found both, but now he's paying the price.

Twelve years ago, Hernandez became Fausto Carmona and dove headlong into the deep pool of lies and deceit that is baseball in the Dominican Republic. Hernandez emerged from that murky water last month with more than $15 million in career earnings and a big problem.

He was arrested on Jan. 19 by the Dominican National Police outside the U.S. Consulate in Santo Domingo after he applied for a visa using a false identification. For the time being he is a prisoner in his own land.

Indians fans know Carmona as the hero of the Bug Game against the Yankees in the 2007 playoffs. They are still trying to figure out who Hernandez is. They know at least this much, he's 31 instead of 28 as listed in the Indians media guide.

There are so many questions. When did Hernandez become Carmona? How was the arrangement made? How much money exchanged hands? How was he caught? When will he be able to rejoin the Indians, who opened spring training a week ago?

The one question that does not need an answer is, why?

In the Dominican Republic, players change names and ages without a thought. Agents called buscones -- Spanish for seekers or lookers -- tell them big-league teams will pay more for a 16 year old than a 20 year old. When the Indians signed Hernandez, they believed he was 17, but he was really 20.

The lengths to which the buscones and others have gone to deceive MLB teams is legendary. Sometimes towns, schools and hospitals are involved in the scam. All to make a player a couple of years younger and fatten his signing bonus.

"This has been going on forever," said Jorge Brito, Hernandez's agent. Last year the Dominican Republic, a tiny Caribbean island, saw 86 of its native sons open the season on big-league rosters. No other country outside the United States supplied more players to The Show.

The Dominican has always been a buyer's beware market. Some scouts call it the wild west in terms of player acquisition. The talent is cheap and plentiful, and not restricted by the annual MLB annual draft. Such conditions spawned a culture of fraud that knew no bounds.

Things began to change after the terrorist attacks on the United States on Sept. 11, 2001. The U.S. tightened its borders and scores of Dominican players were found to have bogus ages in the spring of 2002. Indians pitcher Bartolo Colon went from 26 to 28 and his brother Jose, in the minors with the Tribe, went from 23 to 26.

How is this story going to end for Hernandez? If you're worried about not seeing him standing on the mound with sweat dropping off the bill of his cap on a hot July night, calm yourself. At some point before the Indians break camp on April 2, according to sources, the Department of Homeland Security is expected to grant him a waiver to join the Indians. He could still face a suspension by Commissioner Bud Selig.

A deal gone bad


Hernandez had been coming to the United States as Carmona since 2002, when he was in Class A ball. When he was arrested on Jan. 19, however, he could not have been that surprised. The baseball grapevine in the Dominican had been buzzing for over a year about his true identity.

A year ago, a story in a Dominican newspaper claimed that the Fausto Carmona pitching for the Indians was an impostor. About a month before Hernandez was arrested, a spiritualist named Yohanny Ventura Solares went on "El Gobierno De La Manana," a popular morning radio show in Santo Domingo, and said the pitcher Fausto Carmona was really Roberto Hernandez.

Solares said she had been threatened and beaten by Hernandez's father, Beato, because she kept requesting the $1 million pesos ($26,000 in U.S. dollars) that Hernandez promised her for, according to the radio station's Web site, "spiritual work with candle lights and oil" on a birth certificate that Hernandez gave her. She said Roberto Hernandez used the birth certificate to sign with the Indians.

She said she once talked to the real Fausto Carmona, warning him about the potential danger, but he did not seem concerned about the situation. She said the real Fausto Carmona told her that he had assumed another name.

Acting on this and other information gathered by MLB investigators, the Dominican police were waiting for Carmona outside the U.S. Consulate. He was released Jan. 20 on $13,000 bail.

Hernandez, according to sources close to the investigation, has been cooperating with Dominican and U.S. authorities on just how the fraud took place. He had no choice if he wanted to continue pitching in the big leagues. William Weissman, U.S. consulate general in Santo Domingo, made it clear in public comments following Hernandez's arrest that one of the possible penalties for players using false identifications was a lifetime ban from the United States.

Hernandez has been visiting independent baseball schools since early February, warning young players about the dangers of changing their names and ages. After each speech he passes out T-shirts with the message "In Truth There is Triumph."

Brito says his client tells players that teams will still sign them when they're 18 or 19.

"He tells them not to listen to the [buscones, coaches and trainers] who are trying to convince you to change your identity or age," said Brito. "Those people are trying to take advantage of you."

Country boy

Hernandez's teammates call him "Grande" -- Spanish for large -- because he's 6-4 and weighs close to 250 pounds. As big as he is, Hernandez has made a career of making himself invisible when necessary. When he won 19 games in 2007, teammate CC Sabathia owned the headlines and the Cy Young Award. In dealing with the media, Hernandez has always done what he's required to do, but little else. He'll talk after one of his starts and then makes himself scarce.

"Quiet," is how former Indians bullpen coach Luis Isaac described the pitcher.

Perhaps now we know why.

Hernandez grew up in a village in Yasama, a mostly agricultural region northeast of Santo Domingo. He worked on his father's farm and had already traded his name and identity with Carmona when he left home to sign with the Indians.

Winston Llenas, who ran the Indians' baseball academy in the Dominican Republic at the time, signed Hernandez. Llenas remembered him as being tall and thin with a strong right arm, good movement on his fastball and a bad set of teeth from eating raw sugar cane.

"He was just a country boy, who didn't have access to proper health care," said Llenas.

At the Indians' baseball school, Hernandez was quiet, polite and a fast learner. When the Indians paid to get his teeth fixed, he started gaining weight and velocity on his pitches. He stayed at the school for about a year, played one season in the Dominican Summer League and was off to the States.

The Indians say they didn't know Hernandez's real name or age when they signed him for an estimated $9,000 on Dec. 28, 2000. A college junior in the United States can still be considered a prospect at 20. Traditionally that has not been the case in the Dominican, where MLB teams prefer their prospects to be 16 or 17.

"We had good people there, respected people," said John Hart, Indians general manager at the time, "but we weren't doing the kind of thorough background checks that they do now."

The Indians placed Hernandez on the restricted list on Jan. 26. He doesn't count against their 40-man roster and won't get paid his $7 million salary until he's allowed back into the United States.

A documentary on the Dominican's baseball passion


He is not alone
The Hernandez timeline

Career timeline on Roberto Hernandez, the pitcher Indians fans have known as Fausto Carmona:
2000: On Dec. 18, signed with Indians as a non-drafted free agent for an estimated $9,000. Indians list his birth date as Dec. 7, 1983.
2001: Pitched in the Dominican Summer League.
2002: Made his debut in the United States, pitching in rookie ball at Class A Burlington and Class A Mahoning Valley.
2003: Put himself on Indians organizational map by going 17-4 at Class A Lake County in Eastlake. Baseball America named him the No.3 prospect in the team’s minor league system.
2004: Advanced from Class A Kinston to winning two starts for Class AAA Buffalo in the postseason. Added to the 40-man major-league roster on Nov. 19.
2005: Promoted to the big leagues twice, on July 17 and Sept. 12, but did not appear in a game.
2006: Made his big-league debut on April 15, beating the Tigers by allowing one run in six innings. He was moved to the bullpen and finished the year at 1-10.
2007: Won 19 games and finished fourth in the AL Cy Young voting.
2008: Signed four-year, $15 million contract extension on April 10. Deal included club options from 2012-14.
2009: Went 5-12 and was sent back to the Arizona Rookie League to try and correct his mechanics and mental approach to pitching.
2010: Made his first American League All-Star team.
2011: April 1, made his first opening day start, allowing 10 runs on 11 hits in three innings in a 15-10 loss to Chicago.
2011: Oct. 31, Indians exercised the $7 million option on his contract for 2012.
2012: Jan. 19, arrested by police in the Dominican Republic outside the U.S. Consulate. Dominican authorities say Carmona is really Roberto Hernandez Heredia and that he’s 31 instead of 28.
2012: Jan. 20, released from jail after posting $13,000 bail. Ordered to surrender his passport.
2012: Jan. 26, Indians placed Carmona on the restricted list, meaning they could use his roster spot and didn’t have to pay him until he rejoined the team in the United States.
2012: Feb. 20, Indians pitchers and catchers reported to spring training in Goodyear, Ariz., but Carmona was still in the Dominican Republic.

— Paul Hoynes

Related stories

Lake County host family still supportive

Marlins closer Leo Nunez was charged in September in the Dominican under similar circumstances. His real name is Juan Carlos Oviedo, and he played in the big leagues for the past seven years under an assumed name and age.

Oviedo, who is 29 instead of 28, turned himself in to Dominican authorities. He recently signed a one-year, $6 million contract with the Marlins but, like Hernandez, he's on the restricted list and will not get paid until he's able to join his team in the United States.

How many more players are playing under assumed names in the big leagues and minors? Some estimates put the number as high as 30.

"Given where we've been over the last five years, and the fact that we've had two in the last year, I would be hard pressed to say there is no one else in that situation," said Rob Manfred, MLB's executive vice president of labor and human resources.

The Marlins supposedly knew for months about Oviedo's true identity. How much did the Indians know about Hernandez? Like a lot of their players from the Dominican Republic -- Colon, Jhonny Peralta, Andy Marte -- the Indians heard rumors about Hernandez's age and identity. Acta, a Dominican native, knew about the newspaper story from last year, but did not know if it was accurate. Indians' officials said the arrest caught them by surprise, but the next day they traded for Colorado right-hander Kevin Slowey to compete for Hernandez's spot in the starting rotation.

One explanation for catching long-time identity thieves like Hernandez and Oviedo is that MLB's Investigative Unit is doing a good job stopping fraud among younger players.

"Our focus is a few degrees off of Fausto Carmona," said Manfred. "Our diligence is on the issue of incoming players. When we sign Rob Manfred, age 16, we want to make sure that we're getting Rob Manfred, age 16."

Last year, MLB investigators did background checks on more than 800 players who signed professional contracts in the Dominican Republic. In about 15 percent, fraud was found. MLB statistics say fraud was discovered in over 60 percent of the players investigated in 2002.

With fraud among the younger players decreasing, one investigator said they are hearing more and more about older players.

Headquarters, Santo Domingo

MLB established an office in 2000 in Santo Domingo to try to oversee the flow of players from the Dominican to the U.S. MLB's investigative unit, scouting bureau, baseball academy, drug prevention program and youth baseball program operate out of the building.

Three years ago MLB's Department of Investigations, headed by Dan Mullin, a former deputy chief of the New York City Police Department, took over the investigation of players' identities. The unit includes three full-time investigators, 10 contract investigators and two U.S.-based supervisors who spend two months at a time in the Dominican.

The investigators are subject to lie-detector tests twice a year to guard against fraud. In the past, investigators hired by teams have been involved in the scams they were paid to expose. MLB team employees have also been caught. In 2009, officials and scouts from several teams, including David Wilder, senior director of player personnel of the Chicago White Sox, were fired for allegedly skimming bonuses from Dominican prospects.

No Dominican player can sign a pro contract unless he's first investigated by MLB. Since 2008, a player found to be lying about his age or identity faces a one-year suspension.

Not all prospects receive complete MLB clearance. That usually involves questions about the player's identity. A common practice among buscones is to move a player from one town to another and have him assume the identity of another family. When a player's family history comes into question, he can take a voluntary DNA test -- DNA tests for employment are prohibited in the Dominican Republic -- to prove who he is.

MLB labels its investigation into such players as "inconclusive." It doesn't stop teams from signing them, but it is a red flag.

The investigators are not as rigid concerning a year or two difference in age. They believe age is more of a concern for the team interested in signing the player. The Indians follow MLB's investigation with one of their own on every Latin American player they sign. They avoid players labeled "inconclusive" and administer steroid tests to every player they sign. It is not a fool-proof system.

In 2008, the Indians signed 17-year-old Dominican shortstop Jose Ozoria for $575,000. In 2009, MLB informed them that Ozoria was really Wally Bryan and that he was 20 instead of 17. The Indians kept Bryan in the system, but he was eventually suspended for a year. He is no longer with the organization.

The signing bonus? The Indians never retrieved a cent. When it happened, John Mirabelli, Indians director of scouting, said, "It's a cost of doing business in that part of the world." Since then the Indians have included language in all contracts that says a player will receive his signing bonus only if that player is approved by the U.S. Consulate for a visa to travel to the United States.

Rafael Perez, MLB's director of Dominican Operations (not to be confused with the Indians reliever), says the Department of Investigations is bringing order to a corrupt system.

"We're on the right path," he said.

As part of the process to establish a player's true identity, MLB's Dominican office prepares a list of the country's top 100 amateur players. The players, who must be at least 15 and have their parents' consent, are registered, tested for steroids and scouted in preparation for the international free agent signing season, which begins July 2.

The next challenge to the Dominican's ecosystem for finding, developing, identifying and signing players is the new basic agreement between MLB owners and players. This year each team is limited to just $2.9 million for signing international free agents starting July 2. Last year, Texas alone spent $17.6 million. It seems clear that this is MLB's first step to eliminate the power of the buscones and usher in a worldwide draft.

Through it all, Perez says the supply of players in the Dominican will never end.

"Baseball is the sport. It is the passion in the Dominican," said Perez. "The Dominican player can fulfill the American dream with baseball."

Change in culture

Ulises Cabrera and Brian Mejia are challenging the old ways. In October 2009, they formed the Dominican Prospect League. Since its start, over 200 DPL players have signed contracts worth $35 million.

In the Dominican, there is little, if any, high school baseball. Youth leagues are few and far between. The government doesn't have the money to support such ventures. The DPL, open to players aged 15 to 20, plays games on a weekly basis. It allows big-league teams a chance to evaluate the best players on the island and decide if they want to sign them.

Under the traditional system, buscones teach players the fundamentals -- hitting, fielding, running, throwing. Some buscones house and feed their players. What they don't do is play games.

"That's not playing baseball," said Cabrera. "You're asking big-league teams to commit a lot of money to players based on a tryout.

"By playing games twice a week, we're giving a big-league scout a chance to see a player for 75 at-bats ... just like they could with an American high school kid. The Latin American player deserves to be treated just like the American player."

One of the reasons the league was formed was to help repair the image of baseball in the Dominican. Acta is a member of its advisory board.

"We got a lot of different people to sit down and work on this -- buscones, coaches, trainers and players," said Cabrera.

Cabrera, who played shortstop at Vanderbilt and spent two years in the minors with Texas, said few of the 200 DPL players who signed contracts have run afoul of identity problems.

"What happened with Fausto Carmona was 12 years ago," said Cabrera, a former agent who still includes Acta as a client. "MLB has a lot more oversight in place now. Everybody in baseball knew what was going back then, but they didn't ask those kind of questions. They left it untouched."

Cracking the age barrier

When Hernandez changed his identity in 2000, he was already old by the standards set for Latin American prospects by MLB. Perhaps those times are changing. Cabrera thinks so and believes the DPL has had something to do with it.

"In reality, the majority of players who are signed from Latin American in any given year are older than 16," he said. "The average age is closer to 18 to 19. What the DPL is providing is a chance for MLB teams to actually see these players and the results are that kids 18 and 19 have been receiving contracts larger than they were five to 10 years ago."

Big-league teams prefer younger Latin American players because it can often take two or three years to assimilate a player to pro ball, the English language and American culture.

Age has always been a sore point with Dominican players and officials. Teams give big signing bonuses to Cuban defectors whose identities are harder to investigate than most Latin American players, but are reluctant to do the same with Dominican players once they hit the high teens or early 20s.

As part of the new basic agreement, an International Talent Committee was formed in December. Manfred and Michael Weiner, director of the MLB players association, are co-directors. The worldwide draft will be its main focus, but they will address a number of issues in their twice-monthly meetings.

"That is a topic, a big topic on the international committee we've formed," said Manfred.

Will that be enough to stop the next tall, skinny Dominican pitcher from turning his life upside down for a chance at the big leagues? It would be nice to say yes, but as Indians pitcher Ubaldo Jimenez said of his teammate and fellow Dominican: "It's hard to say no when they tell you if you're two or three years younger, you can make more money and get to the big leagues. Roberto wasn't the first to do it and he won't be the last."

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Adam_P
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: GratefulDawg]
      #903796 - Mon Feb 27 2012 11:19 PM

I really hope that all this mess is the impetus the organization needs to sever ties with the bum for good.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Adam_P]
      #903798 - Mon Feb 27 2012 11:23 PM

crazy that the Tribe has lost 3 of their supposed corps guys before spring training even broke.

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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Frenchy]
      #903828 - Tue Feb 28 2012 05:53 AM

I wonder if there's a reason why the Indians have so many of these "oblique strains", or if its that common elsewhere. Last year we had Choo and Kipnis with it. I remember further back when CC and Cliff Lee both had oblique strains (in different years), but don't remember ever even hearing of the injury before that. You'd think a ballplayer with Perez's experience would know without being told that you have to warm up and loosen up before you cut loose with mid 90's gas, but apparently he really is that dumb.

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ClayM57
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #903837 - Tue Feb 28 2012 07:20 AM

Is it time to resign Russel Branyon & Austin Kerns for the 26th time...player dropping like flies

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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: ClayM57]
      #904059 - Tue Feb 28 2012 02:43 PM

Nice to see the old gang together again ...

Albert Belle pays Tribe a visit: Cleveland Indians spring training briefing

Tuesday, February 28, 2012, 1:06 PM
By Paul Hoynes, The Plain Dealer


from left, Sandy Alomar, Carlos Baerga, Albert Belle, Mike Hargrove and Kenny Lofton


GOODYEAR, Ariz. -- Albert Belle is back with the Indians. At least for a day.

Belle, one of the most controversial players in franchise history, visited his old team's training camp Tuesday morning. Former teammates Carlos Baerga and Kenny Lofton persuaded Belle to come to camp to try and smooth the rocky relationship that has existed between the Indians and Belle.

It's the first time Belle has visited the Tribe in any capacity since he left the team in 1996 as a free agent following a career highlighted by big numbers on the field and suspensions off it.

Lofton, Baerga, Sandy Alomar Jr. and manager Mike Hargrove greeted Belle. With Hargrove as their manager, those four players helped lead the Indians to their first World Series appearance in 41 years in 1995. The 1995 Indians won 100 games in a strike-shortened 144 games season.

Asked what convinced him to come to camp, Belle said, "I wanted to see the guys. I wanted to rehash some old memories. It's good to see everybody."

Belle played with the Indians from 1989 through 1996. He is second in franchise history with 242 homers, ninth in extra base hits with 481 and 10th in RBI with 751. At one time during a free-flowing, memory-filled press conference, Lofton, Belle and Baerga were standing side my side. When they played in Cleveland they were No.7, No.8 and No. 9.

"How about that. . .seven, eight and nine," said Lofton.

A right hip injury ended Belle's career with Baltimore in 2001. If he had played two or three more years, his numbers could have put him in the Hall of Fame.

"When I got hurt in 2000 and couldn't play in 2001, I was devastated," said Belle. "I didn't watch. I didn't watch any highlights of baseball until Game 7 when the D-Backs won the World Series. I keep up with it now and watch a few games."

Belle lives in Scottsdale, Ariz., with his wife and four young daughters.

"I'm a stay-at-home Dad," said Belle. "I'm Mr. Mom and I golf a lot. I'll tell you facing David Cone or Roger Clemens was easy compared to being a dad. It seems like all kids get tired and cranky at the same time."

Not surprisingly, his daughters can swing the bat.

"My wife bought them a little t-ball set," said Belle. "They love to go hit t-ball. I'd like them to play golf or tennis, but they'd rather hit the t-ball."

Belle didn't think there was a problem between the Indians and him.

"I thought the fences were already mended," said Belle. "That was a long time ago. That's the thing about free agency. It can create some bad feelings. I would have loved to play with these guys (Lofton, Baerga and Alomar) another five to 10 years. It didn't work that way. But we've all gone on to have some success."

© 2012 cleveland.com

Edited by Dave (Tue Feb 28 2012 02:52 PM)


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Punchsmack
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #904094 - Tue Feb 28 2012 03:50 PM

WOW...that picture is really cool. A lot of my sports memories are filled with those five guys. Goodness. Very, very good times (and a little bit of "what could have been" too).

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I_Rogue
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Punchsmack]
      #904102 - Tue Feb 28 2012 04:12 PM

Albert Belle was LebRon before LeBron was LeBron.

Look...was I PO'd AB left the tried for money and the ChiSox? Yes. But, it was free agency. I just can't forget about him chasing down trick-or-treaters in his SUV or the fact he referred to Indians fans as "village idiots."

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Browns Lifer
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #904106 - Tue Feb 28 2012 04:19 PM

Ahh... memories. Those WERE good times indeed.

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"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

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ExclDawg
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: I_Rogue]
      #904107 - Tue Feb 28 2012 04:20 PM

Quote:

Albert Belle was LebRon before LeBron was LeBron.

Look...was I PO'd AB left the tried for money and the ChiSox? Yes. But, it was free agency. I just can't forget about him chasing down trick-or-treaters in his SUV or the fact he referred to Indians fans as "village idiots."




From what I've heard about AB ... he was actually a really nice guy, until you ticked him off.

Awesome picture though! Too bad they couldn't pull in Omar, Thome and a few other guys.


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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: ExclDawg]
      #904156 - Tue Feb 28 2012 06:38 PM

I'll never forget his first game back, all the boos, some dude dumping a bag of monopoly money off the home run porch, the countless chants of joey which eventually set him off as he turned around and flipped off the fans. Good times.

In my 30 years of watching Indians baseball, there isn't another guy I'd want at the plate past the 7th inning with the game on the line. That dude was as clutch as they came. That includes Manny too, BTW. Late game situations I'd take AB over Manny all day and twice on Sunday.

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GratefulDawg
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Browns Lifer]
      #904184 - Tue Feb 28 2012 07:14 PM

Quote:

Ahh... memories. Those WERE good times indeed.





Just want to add my " Good Times " also.

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You know my love will Not Fade Away.........


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OverToad
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #904290 - Wed Feb 29 2012 03:34 AM

My God...the years have NOT been kind to Albert...



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Confucius say man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement.


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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: OverToad]
      #904293 - Wed Feb 29 2012 05:12 AM

Shoot, there was a time when I would have bet against him making it to 45 at all. here he is today, happily married, a father of 4 .... by all accounts a good father .......

That is all far more that I would have thought he would have achieved.

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Hope you survive the experience.

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ClayM57
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: OverToad]
      #904302 - Wed Feb 29 2012 06:40 AM

Welcome back Albert....you've been missed, thanks for all the great memories.....Thank-you

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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: ClayM57]
      #904319 - Wed Feb 29 2012 08:18 AM

Expanded story and more photos here:

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/02/albert_belle_pays_tribe_a_visi.html


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Alpoe19
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #904324 - Wed Feb 29 2012 08:59 AM

Yea Albert at one point was the best slugger in the game. It was a crying shame the media screwed him out of winning the mvp in 95. The guy murdered mo vaughn in every category there was. Not too many guys will ever have 50 homers and 50 doubles again.

My favorite moment with Belle, is when he hit that grand slam off Lee Smith in the bottom of the 9th in 95. You're right that guy was as clutch as they come.


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Punchsmack
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: OverToad]
      #904398 - Wed Feb 29 2012 12:27 PM

Quote:

My God...the years have NOT been kind to Albert...






Give the guy a break. That picture was taken 22+ years ago when he was 23 years old. He's retired and plays golf........AND lives with four women! I would expect for him to look a lot different.

My favorite AB moment....him flexing in the playoffs against Boston. Mean! We could have used his attitude in 2007.

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"Run" - Walter White


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PDR
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: ExclDawg]
      #904563 - Wed Feb 29 2012 05:06 PM

Quote:


From what I've heard about AB ... he was actually a really nice guy, until you ticked him off.




My father used to run a hotel near the old stadium, and had a lot of ties with the organization. When Belle first came up (back when he was Joey), the team was a little worried about him, and had my father hook him up with a part time job doing some accounting. It was more or less a token job to keep him out of trouble, but my father really liked him and said he was a really great guy.

I can't possibly imagine any athlete agreeing to do anything like that today.

--------------------


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ExclDawg
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: PDR]
      #904576 - Wed Feb 29 2012 05:36 PM

Pretty much every story I've heard on a personal level about Belle has been a good one. He's was a great tipper, a nice guy if you talked to him, etc. I remember Christy Brinkley once talking about how she was trying to take a photo of him, and all the media types were telling her how impossible it was to get him to agree to anything. She asked if she could get a picture of him with her kid, and he agreed. She said once she brought her kid out, he was the nicest guy she's ever seen.

Here's the pic too:



But most the main-stream stories we've heard of Belle are from when he's snapped, and took it out on heckling fans or kids egging his house.


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no_logo_required
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: ExclDawg]
      #904580 - Wed Feb 29 2012 05:45 PM

I have a feeling that most athletes are alot nicer to women who look like Christy Brinkley than they are to the normal media types.

--------------------
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-Coach Pettine


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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #904591 - Wed Feb 29 2012 06:16 PM

He lived near Euclid during his days with the Tribe, so I have heard a lot about him, all good. Local pizza place said he would come in and was extremely polite. I know he was a regular at Muldoon's on 185th (which is an awesome place) loved their chili.

I just think he had preconceived thoughts about the media and how they portrayed athletes, and never really gave them a chance.

God, he was good though. Absolutely lethal. I think that guy thrived off pressure.

--------------------

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OverToad
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #904728 - Thu Mar 01 2012 03:08 AM

Quote:

I have a feeling that most athletes are alot nicer to women who look like Christy Brinkley than they are to the normal media types.




--------------------
Confucius say man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement.


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OverToad
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #904729 - Thu Mar 01 2012 03:12 AM

Frank Thomas was bigger, but no player was more intimidating at the plate. For a brief moment in the history of MLB, there was no player more feared than Belle.

Seeing Belle lookin' like that really makes me feel old. I SWEAR it was just yesterday that me and my buddies were hanging out and talking about just how insane the Indians talent level was.

The truth is that was 18 years ago.


--------------------
Confucius say man who live in glass house should change clothes in basement.


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ExclDawg
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: OverToad]
      #904771 - Thu Mar 01 2012 09:14 AM

Quote:

Seeing Belle lookin' like that really makes me feel old. I SWEAR it was just yesterday that me and my buddies were hanging out and talking about just how insane the Indians talent level was.




That was pretty much the modern day "Murderers Row" ... I still have no idea how Atlanta shut them down in the series. I guess good pitching wins out every time.

Paul Sorrento was the "low" man with a .230ish batting average. Omar and Pena were in the .260's and everyone else was .300 or better. Manny Ramirez batted freaking 7th and David Winfield rode the pine most the time!


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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: ExclDawg]
      #904774 - Thu Mar 01 2012 09:22 AM

It'll sound like sour grapes, but the strike zone the umps gave Glavine and Maddux in that Series was ridiculous. I remember Belle turning on an ump after they called a strike that was 6-8 inches off the plate. He couldn't have hit it with a 4-ft bat.

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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #904784 - Thu Mar 01 2012 09:48 AM

Quote:

It'll sound like sour grapes, but the strike zone the umps gave Glavine and Maddux in that Series was ridiculous. I remember Belle turning on an ump after they called a strike that was 6-8 inches off the plate. He couldn't have hit it with a 4-ft bat.




Yup. That was before they made umps universal.

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HurricaneDawg
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #904795 - Thu Mar 01 2012 10:16 AM

I wish Spring Training was still down here in Winter Haven.

--------------------
I want the Cleveland Browns to be my pallbearers so they can let me down for the last time.


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Punchsmack
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: HurricaneDawg]
      #904818 - Thu Mar 01 2012 10:56 AM

I'm ready for spring but I'm not ready for baseball. I suppose it's still only March 1st.....but I'm just not emotionally ready to invest myself into a new season.

Maybe that will change after going through March Madness and I'll be overly saturated with basketball. Speaking of....I gotta ask off for one of those first round days.

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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Punchsmack]
      #905006 - Thu Mar 01 2012 04:27 PM

J/C ... back to Sizemore; he's out 8-12 weeks following back surgery ... something called micro-discectomy ... 8-12 weeks sounds overly optimistic.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/03/grady_sizemore.html


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Punchsmack
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #905009 - Thu Mar 01 2012 04:30 PM

I'll be surprised if he plays 8-12 total weeks of the season. Heck, 8-12 games might be a good over/under bet.

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no_logo_required
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Punchsmack]
      #905012 - Thu Mar 01 2012 04:31 PM

yeah, he'll come back from this and hurt his groin again. or his elbow. or his knee.

--------------------
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-Coach Pettine


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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #905016 - Thu Mar 01 2012 04:34 PM

does that mean he can't have kids too?

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Punchsmack
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #905023 - Thu Mar 01 2012 04:48 PM

As long as it's not his groin that he tears, he'll be able to propagate his oft-injured DNA.

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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #905075 - Thu Mar 01 2012 07:37 PM

I had one of those done.

Basically, they they go in with an arthroscopic tool and take a piece out of the middle of a herniated disk to reduce the size of the disk, and pull it off of the nerve. If it works, recovery is supposed to be pretty simple.

Unfortunately, mine didn't work.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #905092 - Thu Mar 01 2012 08:14 PM

Somewhere, Courtney Brown is reading this news and shaking his head.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: PrplPplEater]
      #905132 - Thu Mar 01 2012 10:08 PM

Quote:

Somewhere, Courtney Brown is reading this news and shaking his head.




and he probably strained his neck doing it.

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Ballpeen
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Psydeffect]
      #905195 - Fri Mar 02 2012 06:39 AM

I love it when I either pick near the top of a draft or near the bottom and pluck two top closers say in round 4-5...it creates panic and people start scrambling to get closers, leaving some nice players when it rebounds to me.

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Psydeffect
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Ballpeen]
      #905770 - Sat Mar 03 2012 06:51 PM

Yeah it's like the TE in football drafts, people usually freak out once that 2nd elite one goes and you see a huge run on them.

Interesting strategy though, even though I'm not one to panic I'll keep that in mind when we draft big d's league


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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Psydeffect]
      #905800 - Sat Mar 03 2012 09:27 PM

Was thinking the same thing... you bozo's are giving me your draft strategy.

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Ballpeen
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: bigdatut]
      #905825 - Sun Mar 04 2012 06:32 AM

Quote:

Was thinking the same thing... you bozo's are giving me your draft strategy.




Or just trying to get you to draft closers with your first five picks.

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SaintDawg
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Ballpeen]
      #905886 - Sun Mar 04 2012 11:29 AM

web page

Reds’ Rolen, Tribe’s Huff sparkle in spring opener

Scott Rolen’s shoulder looked just fine. Mike Leake appeared to be a little rusty.

Rolen went 2 for 2 in his return from the shoulder surgery that caused him to miss the final two months of the 2011 season, and the Cincinnati Reds and Cleveland Indians played a 6-6, nine-inning tie yesterday in Goodyear, Ariz., in their spring training opener.

Rolen is a seven-time All-Star, including 2010 and 2011. But he didn’t play after July 20 last year and had arthroscopic surgery Aug. 3 to remove bone spurs and fragments from a joint in his left shoulder.

Leake, competing for a spot in the Reds’ rotation, started and allowed two runs — one earned — and four hits in two innings.

“Leake wasn’t as sharp as he usually is,” Reds manager Dusty Baker said. “I don’t worry about Leakie. His pitches weren’t up, but they were down the middle.”

David Huff, among four candidates for the fifth slot in the Indians’ rotation, started and allowed three hits in two scoreless innings.

“I’m not thinking about fifth spot. I’m just thinking about attacking the hitter and making good pitches,” Huff said.

Michael Brantley, expected to move from left field to center to fill in for injured Grady Sizemore (back surgery), led off the game with a double for Cleveland and also singled. Cleveland built a 4-0 lead in the first three innings against Leake and Ron Mahay, but the Reds tied the score with four runs in the fourth off Frank Herrman.

Neftali Soto homered in the fifth against Robinson Tejeda for a 5-4 Reds lead. Cleveland went ahead in the ninth on Juan Diaz’s single and an error by shortstop Paul Janish. The Reds’ Todd Frazier hit a solo homer with one out in the bottom half against Chen Lee to make it 6-6.

The teams will play each other again today and Monday

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: SaintDawg]
      #905907 - Sun Mar 04 2012 12:41 PM

Indians' (and Reds') playoff chances just got better ...

MLB expands playoff format from 8 teams to 10

By BEN WALKER, AP Baseball Writer
Mar 2, 2012
AP

NEW YORK (AP)—With less than a month to go before opening day, baseball at last decided who’s in and who’s out come October.

Now, even a third-place team can win the World Series.

Major League Baseball made it official Friday, expanding the playoff format to 10 teams by adding a wild-card club to each league.

“I hope we get that extra spot,” said new Houston Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow, whose team is coming off a 56-106 finish that was the worst in the majors. “I think it’s great any time you have more markets involved.”

Who knows, maybe a rookie such as Bryce Harper will get that shot this year.

“Cool,” the 19-year-old Washington sensation said after a game against college kids. “It’s great. Hopefully, we’re that playoff team.”

Boston and Atlanta sure could’ve used this setup last year. They went through awful collapses in September that eventually cost them playoff spots on the final day of the season.

“I think the more, the merrier,” new Red Sox manager Bobby Valentine said. “I think for the fans, the players, the energy at the end of the season, I don’t mind. What would it be, a third of the teams? I think it’ll be good.”

This is the first switch in MLB’s postseason format since the 1995 season, when wild cards were first added. The move creates a new one-game, wild-card round in the AL and NL between the teams with the best records who are not division winners.

“It’s a good thing for baseball. That seems to be what the people want,” Detroit manager Jim Leyland said.

“There are a lot of mixed emotions but as long as the playoffs don’t get watered down, it’s fine, but that won’t happen in baseball,” he said.

The additions mean 10 of the 30 MLB teams will get into the playoffs. That’s still fewer than in the other pro leagues—12 of 32 make it in the NFL, and 16 of 30 advance in the NBA and NHL.

The long-expected decision was announced less than an hour before Seattle and Oakland started the exhibition season. On March 28, the Mariners and Athletics will play the big league opener in Tokyo.

“This change increases the rewards of a division championship and allows two additional markets to experience playoff baseball each year,” Commissioner Bud Selig said in a statement.

Also, a tweak: For the 2012 postseason, the five-game division series will begin with two home games for lower seeds, followed by home games for the higher seed. After that, it will return to the 2-2-1 format previously used.

MLB said that with schedules already drawn for this season, the postseason had to be compressed to fit in the extra games. Hence, fewer off-days for travel.

“I don’t think it really changes the way you look at this season. You really have to fight to win your division,” New York Yankees manager Joe Girardi said. “It is kind of strange to start on the road. That doesn’t quite seem right, but it’s a one-year thing. I understand why they’re doing it.”

If the World Series goes to Game 7 this year—as it did last season, when the wild-card St. Louis Cardinals won the championship—it would be played Nov. 1.

“I like the extra playoff spot. I like the one-game playoff because it really gives the advantages to the division winner,” Los Angeles Dodgers manager Don Mattingly said this week.

As in, it’ll be real dicey for the wild-card contenders to immediately jump into a winner-take-all game, then quickly turn around to start the division series.

Starting this year, too, there’s no restriction on teams from the same division meeting in that best-of-five division series.

Baseball players’ union head Michael Weiner said there had been internal discussions way back about possibly having six playoff teams from each league. He said that once bargaining began with owners on a new labor deal, it was clear MLB only wanted five.

“The players were in favor of expanding the playoffs,” Weiner said.

In particular, he said, the players wanted to put more emphasis on winning a division, especially when MLB goes to a pair of 15-team leagues next year with three divisions each. The Astros are switching from the NL to the AL to make that possible.

A portion of the money generated by the one-game playoffs will go in the players’ pool that is split among the postseason participants.

In 1999, Valentine and the New York Mets won a one-game tiebreaker for the NL wild-card spot.

“I didn’t think that entering the playoffs in ’99 when I had to play a one-game playoff against Cincinnati that the next round was cheapened,” he said.

AP Sports Writer Jimmy Golen and AP freelance writers Mark Didtler, Carl Kotalo, Maureen Mullen and Jeff Berlinicke contributed to this report.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-expandedplayoffs


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Spergon FTWynn
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #906371 - Tue Mar 06 2012 08:51 AM

Get ready for Yankees and the Red Sox in the playoffs every year for the next 50 years.

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Ballpeen
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #906377 - Tue Mar 06 2012 10:36 AM

I like it just fine. What I don't like is seasons ending in Nov.

Somehow figure a way to compress the season by a couple of weeks to finish up the Series by mid Oct.

It's bad enough playing cold weather games in early April. It sucks when you are playing the World Series and have snow on the ground.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Spergon FTWynn]
      #906379 - Tue Mar 06 2012 10:38 AM

I like it. It actually gives a disadvantage to winning the wild card instead of the division. Makes division races and wild card races more interesting. That is only good.

and the Yankees and Red Sox are not the only high payroll teams in the AL anymore. the Tigers and Angels are right behind them. the Rangers, White Sox, and Mariners are not that far off either and each will be getting new local TV deals in the near future that will help boost them up more.

it comes down to how you build your team though. the Rays sure don't spend money and it took them years of high draft picks to get where they are in the farm system, but they got there. Minnesota used to be in the same boat (but have drafted poorly recently) and KC is possibly the new TB.

I hope the Indians recent drafting (all highly rated) develop as anticipated. most of our high-profile guys are in A-ball right now, but that just means by the end of the current cycle (next 3 yrs or so) that they should be in the high minors.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #906381 - Tue Mar 06 2012 10:43 AM

Quote:


Indians Spring TV Schedule

The Indians will have a total of 12 games that air on TV this spring between SportsTime Ohio (STO) and MLB Network (MLBN). Here are the games (all times eastern):

March 5th vs. Reds (MLBN on tape delay at 6:00AM 3/6)
March 7th vs. Diamondbacks (3:10PM on MLBN)
March 10th vs. Padres (4:05PM on STO, MLBN)
March 11th vs. Angels (4:05PM on STO, MLBN)
March 12th vs. Diamondbacks (4:05PM on STO, MLBN)
March 13th vs. Rangers (4:05PM on STO, tape delay on MLBN at 7:00AM 3/14)
March 15th vs. White Sox (4:05PM on STO, tape delay on MLBN at 9:00AM 3/16)
March 16th vs. Angels (MLBN on tape delay at 2:00AM 3/17)
March 19th vs. Dodgers (4:05PM on STO, MLBN)
March 21st vs. Giants (4:05PM on STO, MLBN)
March 24th vs. Dodgers (4:05PM on MLBN)
March 25th vs. Cubs (MLBN on tape delay at 6:00AM 3/26)





Indians Spring TV Schedule

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


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Punchsmack
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #906398 - Tue Mar 06 2012 12:22 PM

Quote:

I like it. It actually gives a disadvantage to winning the wild card instead of the division. Makes division races and wild card races more interesting. That is only good.




+1

(a lot of IF's coming)

IF the Indians could have stayed healthy and IF this system was in place last year, who knows, we could have slipped into one of the wildcard spots. Once you get in anything can happen (see 2011 Cardinals).

I can't wait for the races at the end of the season. Two teams fighting for the division even though both are locks for the playoffs already....and then the fight for the two wildcard spots too. It will be amazing.

I assume there will be a tiebreaker for two teams tied for the division or three teams tied for two wildcard spots. No 1-game playoff......I would bet they have to use a H2H tiebreaker. Right?

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Punchsmack]
      #906402 - Tue Mar 06 2012 12:45 PM

they are still working on the tiebreaker part. that is why they have delayed the full announcement on all of it. they want to make sure they get it right the first time because they will be killed by the cynical baseball media if they have to change it again.

and knowing Bug Selig, they'll still manage to get it wrong the first time.

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waterdawg
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Ballpeen]
      #906405 - Tue Mar 06 2012 12:54 PM

An issue ( season length ) that should have addressed some time ago ! All about revenue , game be dammed ... Ridiculous ..

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Adam_P
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: waterdawg]
      #906483 - Tue Mar 06 2012 08:17 PM

jc...

Who's still upset that the Tribe got rid of Alex "-treme DUI" White?


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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Adam_P]
      #906495 - Tue Mar 06 2012 09:17 PM

Quote:

jc...

Who's still upset that the Tribe got rid of Alex "-treme DUI" White?




that depends on what Ubaldo does (and Pomeranz)

--------------------
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #911090 - Fri Mar 16 2012 02:49 PM

http://cnnsi.com/2012/writers/tom_verduc...mp;sct=hp_wr_a1

basically summed up as following

Quote:


Interestingly, Clemens had almost identical BABIP numbers to those of Verlander: .286 career and .238 in his Cy/MVP season. Clemens pitched another 21 seasons and his BABIP never again was as low as it was in 1986.

A low BABIP is often written off to the vagaries of luck -- one of those seasons where an inordinately large number of balls in play found fielders' gloves rather than not. The thinking is that a pitcher cannot control what happens once a ball is put in play.






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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #912240 - Tue Mar 20 2012 08:36 AM

Quote:

A low BABIP is often written off to the vagaries of luck -- one of those seasons where an inordinately large number of balls in play found fielders' gloves rather than not. The thinking is that a pitcher cannot control what happens once a ball is put in play.




I never heard of BABIP before, but I like it. I think rather than chalking it up to luck, it indicates the quality of pitches inside the strike zone. In Carmona's one good year (19-8), he was throwing low-outside sinkers to hitters, on 2 strike counts, that were consistently beaten into the ground for a lot of 6-3 and 4-3 groundouts. I also remember hearing an opposing scout talking about Greg Swindell - who had a great arm - being "wild inside the strike zone". In other words, he could throw strikes, but not quality strikes. These are major league hitters, after all, and Swindell got hammered more often than he should have. The BABIP seems to measure command and location.


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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #912261 - Tue Mar 20 2012 09:41 AM

By the way, Michael Brantley left yesterday's game with the Dodgers after feeling a "twinge" in his hamstring. He's listed as "day-to-day", so for now we're down to one major league outfielder (Choo). I hate it when teams use terms like "twinge" or "tweak" to describe (and minimize) injuries, because inevitably it leads to a guy being out 2-3 weeks.

On the bright side Jeanmar Gomez pitched 4 scoreless yesterday against the Dodgers, and the Featherheads beat Clay Kershaw. Gomez has to be in the rotation, imo.


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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #912263 - Tue Mar 20 2012 09:44 AM

BABIP is an incomplete stat really. You need to measure it with FB% (fly-ball), LD%(line-drive), and GB%(ground-ball) to get a true measure of if the pitcher is getting luck (or has a great defense behind him) or unlucky (or has the Tigers defense behind him sans Austin Jackson).

The main point was that the BABIP that Verlander had last year is unsustainable even by the greatest pitchers who have ever lived.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #912274 - Tue Mar 20 2012 09:57 AM

With all due respect to the sabermetrics crowd, most astute fans could have watched Verlander last year and seen that he was basicaly unhittable.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #912282 - Tue Mar 20 2012 10:10 AM

Quote:

With all due respect to the sabermetrics crowd, most astute fans could have watched Verlander last year and seen that he was basicaly unhittable.




oh, no doubt. and that shows up as well in sabermetrics (strikes + fouls per pitch, SO/IP, etc.). sabermetrics love when the ball is not put in play because it's guaranteed the hitter cannot do anything good with it.

but, we are past last year now. what we are trying to determine is if he can do it again at the same level. history shows us that it is nearly impossible (Pedro Martinez in the late 90s right after we passed on trading for him is one of the few examples).

maybe it's due to luck, maybe it's due to being nearly impossible to keep such placement so consistently over years, but whatever it is there is a mountain of evidence that Verlander will likely regress a little this year. that's all.

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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #912284 - Tue Mar 20 2012 10:13 AM

With that infield, he better strike out around 18 per game. Good as he is, that won't happen, so my guess is you're right - he'll regress.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #912287 - Tue Mar 20 2012 10:23 AM

Quote:

With that infield, he better strike out around 18 per game. Good as he is, that won't happen, so my guess is you're right - he'll regress.




especially if they give Inge 2B too.

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
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Dave
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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #912288 - Tue Mar 20 2012 10:29 AM

They say Fielder is actually a good fielding 1B, but his range has to be pretty limited given his girth. Then you have Cabrera, who is brutal at 3rd, and Peralta with the range of a glacier at SS. Their OF is pretty good, though, and I'd guess Verlander throws more fly balls than grounders.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #912296 - Tue Mar 20 2012 10:47 AM

you don't have to guess

he is a 40/40/10 guy. 40% on GB and FB, 10% on LD.
also, 10% of his flyballs don't leave the IF (which is pretty good).

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8700&position=P

scroll down to "Batted Ball"

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: no_logo_required]
      #912304 - Tue Mar 20 2012 11:01 AM

Sabermetrics guys never leave their basements, I bet.

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Re: Sizemore Injured Again [Re: Dave]
      #912323 - Tue Mar 20 2012 11:53 AM

Quote:

Sabermetrics guys never leave their basements, I bet.






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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #916989 - Mon Apr 02 2012 11:18 AM

Indians sign Asdrubal Cabrera through 2014.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/04/cleveland_indians_reach_contra.html


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Reged: Oct 11 2006
Posts: 17737


Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: Dave]
      #917030 - Mon Apr 02 2012 01:01 PM

Quote:

Indians sign Asdrubal Cabrera through 2014.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/04/cleveland_indians_reach_contra.html




2 notes on this:

1. This is 1 year past his arbitration years. So, we get him at least 1 more year than if he left as early as possible.

2. His contract now expires the same year as Jeters. Start the conspiracy theorists.

--------------------
"There’s a phrase for almost losing, it’s called winning."
-Coach Pettine


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YTownBrownsFan
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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #917033 - Mon Apr 02 2012 01:04 PM

It also affords the Indians some protection if he blimps again ...... I guess.

--------------------
Welcome to the Browns Coach Pettine.

Hope you survive the experience.

"Danger is real, but fear is a choice." Cavaliers Coach David Blatt, from his son


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Re: AL Central - Indians and others [Re: no_logo_required]
      #917048 - Mon Apr 02 2012 01:28 PM

Quote:

2. His contract now expires the same year as Jeters. Start the conspiracy theorists.




And also the same year the Lindor is expected to start pushing the big league roster...

--------------------
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...


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