DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 24 49ers 10 Here's Johnnnnyy!

which to me is the biggest argument to keep Pet and the offensive side of the ball intact ( sans the OL coach),

this no time to force feed another scheme and playbook

Perhaps, but we all know he turned into suckiness.

Right. But during his second year in the league people were probably saying many of the same things they are saying about Manziel (and with more positivity).

Yeah and Joe Montana did jack for three or four seasons before he became Joe Cool.
Vince Young is irrelevant to this discussion.

But he's a "winner."

The only thing we need to do with Johnny is get out of his way and let him play football. Pettine must learn this.

So where is this "Johnny is a winner" coming from?

At Texas A&M:

2012 record 11-2
2013 record 9-4

Didn't win a National Championship

In HS

2009 record 9-5
2010 record 10-2

Didn't win a State Championship

Those win/lose records are not bad but are nothing special. He has never won a championship at any level. So what makes Johnny a "winner"? One win over Alabama?

On October 5, 2003 Tim Couch led the Browns to a 33-13 victory over the Pittsburgh Steelers. Does that make him a winner?

Don't know who said he's a "winner"... he's a hell of a competitor though.

So, he..... battles.

NO... well yea... kind of...

Meh, give me your gut instinct on it.

beat me to it

We've been in every game, we've never quit, we just need to find a way to be better, we all believe in each other, we need to dig deep and find a way to right the ship....

that's what my gut is telling me.

PLAYS like a Brown . . .so far.

Does seem to compete. Wrecks laptops apparently. League, mmmmm, not so much.

Most of my issues with him are physical.

1. From the first time I saw him back in college until today his footwork as been terrible (although I will admit it has gotten better, it's still not good).

2. He can't see over the lineman, our or their's which causes him to have to move around more than would otherwise be necessary (making it harder for the linemen to know how best to block for him) and causes him to have to throw at crazy angles making #3 even worse.

3. His arm strength may be fine when he's got his feet set (they're rarely set see #1) but when he's not squared up, he puts up some really questionable velocity passes.

4. His accuracy is okay on intermediate passes when he's on the run but out of the pocket he's been missing guys (I would assume because he's trying to throw over or around bigger players). His long balls at least get in the area of the receivers but they're not hitting guys in stride. Most of his long completions are to Benjamin because he's fast enough to compensate. Much like he'd just throw it up for Mike Evans and hope that he came down with it.

5. In addition to accuracy, his arm strength is dependent upon his putting his whole body into throws. He's just not strong enough. Time will tell but I think he's looking at much more than just his elbow issues moving forward as he puts more and more stress on that arm and shoulder at different angles every time.

That's what I've got off the top of my head, with more time I could go deeper with the physical stuff and then we can proceed to what a headcase he is...

This makes me think you have no idea what you are talking about.

This on all points, maybe he was confusing Conner Shaw or Austin Davis with Manziel. The velocity on his passes is quite impressive throwing on the run and he has a super quick release when he throws from the pocket. And his accuracy...it has looked pretty good at all ranges.

I'll make another point about Manziels height being questioned, I've yet to see any batted balls at the line of scrimmage. Though I have seen several from McCown and he towers over Manziel, it's about seeing your throwing lanes and Manziel seems to have a knack at squeezing the ball through tight spots.

Oh wow! Harsh man. Very harsh.

Harsh but true.

I think of you as one of the most knowledgeable, even-keel, and fair posters here, but I do think that reply was some unnecessary "chin music" to Stetson. Its fine to disagree, but no need to put someone in their place with a hammer and a stake. Some of Stetson points re: footwork and Manziel's inability to see over linemen are legit. Brady Quinn said in Sunday's telecast that Manziel's footwork needed work. On one play, JM was looking right and then looked left to throw an out pattern, but did not reset his feet for the throw to the left, resulting in an overthrow by a lot. Manziel himself talked about his difficulty seeing over linemen when he talked about having to make "faith throws" - throws where a guy should be even though he can't see him. As for arm strength, I think his arm is average to above average, but not great, and certainly not elite. I do think his accuracy suffers under the rush and when he's on the run.

For me, his shortcomings are his size - not just his height - his frame, and his style of play - which, IMO, is chaotic and prone to alternating big plays and disastrously bad plays. Adlibbing is not a plan; not a system that is replicable. As a result of those two factors its my belief that the guy will struggle to stay healthy enough to play more than half of the games in a given season. I'll admit to my prejudice towards any QB with his size; I want a large QB, like Roeth or Flacco, who despite injuries this year, have been very durable for the bulk of their careers.

I think Manziel played his best game as a pro last Sunday, but you have to excuse me if I temper that with the knowledge that it WAS the 49ers, whose D might be worse than ours. I just really hate to see this fanbase become so polarized, because inevitably the debate gets personal, and people who have traditionally gotten along well, or maybe even just coexisted, are at each others throats. It is possible to disagree with a person's POV without making it personal.

Dave, I see you somewhat the same way you see steve, but I think that was one of the worst posts you've ever made.

People are failing to see the big picture here. Can Manziel play football or not? Period. Who cares if he's 5'0 or 7'3? Can the guy play football? Weeden had prototypical size but he can't play football. How many QBs in the NFL have the prototypical size, but can't play? There's a ton. You said you love prototype size. Why? Would you rather have Weeden or Manziel? I mean give me a guy who can play football.

The other mistake people like Stetson make is every single critique is made from the perspective that Manziel is a finished product or like he's been in the league for 5 years. I love critiques where guys say " he can't do this" or "he can't do that" as if it's a foregone conclusion on guys who are just getting their feet under them with experience and still have a lot of growing and developing to do. Where is the big picture thinking in that?

The best thing that could possibly happen for the Browns is Manziel becomes the guy yet so many people want to see him fail. Browns fans love being losers and love rooting for losers. They love to keep the losing going. When you know nothing else, that norm becomes the comfort zone.

Thanks for the compliment - I know I'm not in Steve's league in terms of football savvy, but I do try to be fair and I try to be consistent. Sorry you didn't like the post, but no offense taken.

My post was probably too long-winded. My point about JM and his size is simply this: I think he's going to get killed. His small frame and helter skelter style are, sooner or later, going to expose him to some massive shots. He's no good to anyone hurt, and I think its inevitable he will be. That doesn't mean I wish it to happen, but I'm expecting it.

I don't want us to pass on Lynch, or Cook, or Goff because we're blinded by a shooting star.

Good point about Johnny not being a finished product. A lot of the criticism he receives are things from the past (granted, sometimes the not so distant past) that are improving.

Example being Stetson's comment about Johnny being a body thrower. Stetson is absolutely right about that. This was actually one of my biggest concerns/criticisms about him coming into the draft. When Manziel feels he needs to get a little something extra on the ball (either more zip to fit the ball through a tight window or more distance for those longer passes) he has a tendency to use his whole body and try to power the ball throwing from his shoulder. This tends to not add much to the throw other than slow down his release and telegraph where the ball is going (my mistake at that time was thinking it was the result of lack of arm strength which isn't the case. I think it is just poor mechanics and bad habits). He still does this, however, I see it significantly less often. So he is definitely shown improvement in that area.

Here are my issues with Manziel:

He is kind of a douchebag and I hate rooting for him. But I do because he is our Qb. I would love to have a Qb leading this team that I truly enjoyed rooting for.

He is an exciting fun player to watch. I hate how he makes me feel guilty for enjoying watching him play. But lord help me, I do.

Battered Browns Fan Syndrome has me convinced that if he does become a franchise Qb and leads us to our 1st super bowl appearance that he will go on a bender and pull a Barrett Robbins the day before the super bowl. I hate that he gives me that feeling.

I can't stop watching his feet. Great ones keep dancing until they plant and pop. His stop and he is locked down (another part of his telegraphing sometimes). Hard to be a pocket passer, well, without a pocket. So I chalk it up to something needing more work, and I have seen what you mention.

I will root for him as a starter because I am a fan. But I also have trust issues remaining.
My dear departed grandmother, when i asked sabot something, wisely said, "Go; know."
We are in that process, and I would love for the answer to be clearly in our favor or just as clearly not, whichever one before the draft.

For those who favor him, hope you are right and he gives us a bunch of proof in hard games like this weekend. I hope all of us also have a fair and equal set of measurements in mind about what the negatives will be against him as the man starting, going forward in the here and now. Trying to get this out better than I am: We must have a metric of what our QB must be going forward, and it should also disqualify a player for QB, barring injury need (best man available), if we see the fails.
I agree upfront that QB is a position always in progress; but for those on the board who say we need to see what we have in JM, the gut check is at hand. Either way, stop evaluating and start playing football. Good luck however it shakes out. Just acknowledge the decision if it is fairly made.

yea i was shocked at what people said about your post.



I would think the guy that said that and those that agreed were the ones that dont know what they are talking about... especially the part about being to short to see over the d-line. since the cocaine cowboy said it himself. lmao...

I am confused as to who you are referring to here...

I don't take any offense to that, you can think whatever you want. I'm somewhat surprised because I think that might have been my most objective post about Manziel up to this point. I think he has improved some, in some areas but it still appears to me that his ceiling is Doug Flutie and I think we need better. Oh, Doug Flutie who has an unstable off the field reputation...

I keep coming back to the FACT that McCown beat him out and has played objectively better with this same cast of characters on offense than Johnny has. But, but, but he's only a "rookie" in his second year!!! I know, I know but we're talking about Josh McCown and the difference is more than can be explained by just experience, some of it is just the ability to play football at this level.

I've been as happy as anyone when Manziel has had success in these last few games, there have been times, but it hasn't clouded my ability to see that there's a mighty far piece to go before he'd start on most teams in this league and I just don't think he can get there. I truly do hope, if he is given the chance (which I'm against) that he becomes what the Johnny fans hope he does, I just don't think it will happen.

And it's okay that I think that as well.