DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... "Bucks 4 Brains"... Where'd They Go?

For your consideration/conversation:

Has everybody been keeping up with the Flint water crisis? I have. I was listening to the news in 2014, when the story broke. Since then, it has featured an endless string of mismanagement, gross incompetence, cover-ups and buck-passing, while thousands of children were poisoned on a daily basis by the city's water supply.

Well, here's something you probably didn't know: the "Emergency Manager," Darnell Earley was in charge of restructuring the Detroit Public School System at the same time (...as if one job wasn't already too big for him...) Now, $30M in money already earned by DPS teachers has gone missing (or was spent)... with no explanation as to where it might have gone.

IMO, Detroit is the 'canary in a coalmine,' as far as public education in America is concerned. It's by far the most extreme example of the problems we face, but countless other school systems across the country are fairing almost as poorly. There's a bigger issue at stake than just the DPS. I'm talking about an attitude/mindset in America that (severely) underpays the very people whom we've entrusted with our children's education, then demonizes the organization which seeks to protect them from exploitation. Where does that thinking come from?


In a nation which pays a shartlotta lip-service to the "preciousness of our children," we can see what we value by tracking where the money goes. If your national sports team has a venue that's <20 years old, and your school system has been failing for >20 years... something in your list of civic priorities is seriously screwed up.

IMO, if you have a soul and an ounce of patriotism/civic pride, this story should break your heart. I owe teachers for my profession, my standard of living, and my ability to think critically. I owe teachers for my ability to even type this post. And it feels to me that my debt remains unpaid, so long as current stories like this keep running.





Your thoughts?

I've heard just a small amount about the teachers in Detroit.

Small question, just for clarification: Was the money there to begin with?

If so, it should be fairly easy to track where it went. (I'm assuming there was a separate fund for teacher's salaries, here)

If that IS the case, heads should roll, prison time would be warranted for whoever "stole" the money.

On the other hand - I have to wonder if the money wasn't there in the first place? If that's the case, heads should roll as well.

Either way, the teacher's should get paid what they earned. Period.


School systems (at least here) have to budget. They have to forecast. Expenses, income, etc etc. Our school, as I'm sure every school in Ohio does due to law - forecasts 1 year, 3 year, and 5 year budgets. We know way ahead of time what's going on. (granted, that's based on a forecast, and that forecast can change quickly, etc)


As for the condition of the public schools - no excuse. But, if the money isn't there, where does it come from? Oh, yeah, the taxpayers.

At some point, the Detroit residents (and probably Michigan residents, and probably the federal gov't.) will have to pony up the money.

My next thought is, if the DPS can't pay the teacher's salaries, how does the whole teacher's retirement system for Michigan look, financially?

Ohio's TRS WAS in a good financial position a couple of years ago. They've made changes, to my understanding - and several good teachers just in our district alone retired at a time when they didn't necessarily want to, but did so because of the benefits they would've lost had they taught even 1 more year.


And lastly, my feeling on the whole "lifetime pension" thing is: It's not sustainable, and we're seeing proof of that now.

Lifetime pension is fine if you're gonna die in 15-20 years.

I disagree. Lifetime pensions are wonderful, don't get me wrong.

They just aren't sustainable, that's my point.

Look at the uaw and the cuts they've made. Look at Ohio's TRS. Cuts made, being made.

Too many receiving, not enough paying in.

My prediction is we'll see more and more pension groups cutting benefits in the coming years.

Those that offer medical are in even worse shape as the medical costs continue to increase. Life expectancies increase as well. There just isn't enough money to cover the promises, and that's why benefits are decreasing, and will continue to decrease.

JMO

It's a house of cards imo.

Our course on this earth can't be substained on our current global trajectory, as arch has already pointed out.

In this case, the teachers had 2 options for their pay;

Option 1 is to be paid their salary over the 9 month academic year, and receive no income during their summer "off time".

Option 2 is to take their salary, and have it split up over the 12 month calendar, receiving a lesser paycheck during the school year, but receiving that amount year round.

They did not receive more money one way or the other .... except, of course, that there somehow will not be enough money to pay the summer portion of their salaries.

My Pastor is a firemen in the Cleveland area, in addition to being Pastor of our church. He has had issues with paychecks not being issued at all, having them bounce when they are issued, and recently he had surgery on his shoulder, and when he went for his post surgical care, and rehab, (vital in a rotator cuff surgery) he was told that his insurance had lapsed, because the city never paid the premiums ... which are deducted from their paychecks.

There are a lot of problems with many of our cities. In many cases, people, and business, have left the cities, creating a huge decline in tax revenues. In other cases, completely unqualified people are elected, and they have no idea what they are doing when it comes to running a city. I would guess that many others have a combination of both of these factors.

I am not a huge union guy, but I do know many people who work belong to public service unions, and in many cases, they have been squeezed just like the rest of us who have been in the private sector have. My brother has seen his premiums increase, while his co pays and deductibles also skyrocket. He is lucky in that he has received several promotions over the years, but the net of that is that he makes just slightly more than he did when he was 2 rungs lower on the ladder.

With all of that said, city governments cannot just manufacture money like the US government does. So, they have to budget their money very carefully. In some cases, they may have to reduce personnel levels at a variety of government agencies. They may have to negotiate salary concessions from workers, and increase the percentage the worker pays for insurances and such. The one thing, however, that should not happen is for people to not be paid, not be paid properly, and for people to not have the benefits they have already paid for. We should all be able to do better than that.

I know all of that.

And your brother isn't the only one facing health care premiums increase, deductibles increase, etc.

I live it every day, as do most. I can only cut back so much. I suppose I could sell my house.

Oh boy...where to begin...

A lot of my blame rests with Obama, and his asinine pick of an "education" secretary. Arne Duncan, the current secretary of Education, comes from Chicago Public Schools, but he lacks any formal degrees or experience as a teacher. He "ran" their school system, they found many of his schools, especially charter schools, cheated to inflate scores on statewide standardized tests, but none of this apparently matters.

Data and accountability have their place, but find a way to test all learning styles. Kids don't learn best by just reading, and they sure don't display their best way of learning by simply filling in a bubble on a test.

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Confession:I make much more than the national average where I work and live. However, I spend at least 5k in airline costs, over 1200 for internet for nine months (that's with a 100GB data cap), inflated food costs (more than double for most common items in the lower 48), another 900 for cell phone service, and rent for a tiny place. After all that I make just a little more than the average teacher at this point of my career in Ohio.

The salary helps, but I don't spend much on anything up here. Not really anything to spend it on.

Detroit teacher deserve a better administration, better working conditions, and much more support. I can imagine they're in similar shoes as those in Cleveland Municipal, and I hate the direction of CMSD.

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Why do we always go and attack teacher pensions? Is it out of jealousy?

Confession 2: I receive a glorified 401k. A portion of my check does go towards my "retirement", but it's not this fat cat check that sooo many assume teachers these days receive. Alaska undid their pension system many years ago for teachers. Nor will I receive healthcare when I retire at 68, but that's a long ways away.

I don't know that anyone is attacking teacher's pensions. Other than the teacher's, really.

There's a reason teachers pensions, and most other pensions, are changing/decreasing.

It's because they are unsustainable. The money going in is not enough to cover the money going out.

Yes, I would love to work for 30 years, retire, and have a pension paid for the rest of my life. That would be awesome.

It is not feasible though.

You're going to have to work til you're 68 until you get a pension? And it won't be a livable pension? At what age did you start teaching?

Did you know that most people don't get a pension? Most people don't work 30 or 35 years and expect to retire and get a pension that will sustain them for the rest of their lives?

Nah, I don't attack pensions out of jealousy. Although I'd love to put in 30 years and be taken care of for the next 30 years.

Nah, I don't attack pensions. I simply make the proven statement that pensions are unsustainable. The facts back me up.

And I am not saying that they are the onlt ones facing issues.

My point is that many public service employees are paying more and more for their benefits, just like those in the private sector, however, in many cases, the inept local governments are screwing their employees by not paying the things the employees have already paid for as part of their employee deductions.

That's all.

Then pay into a pension plan with your money like all people who have a pension plan do. And teachers pay into a pension plan instead of SOC SEC and do not get social security at retirement like most do, unless they paid into soc sec from other jobs.

Comlaining about teachers' pensions? Really? Why not complain about the illegals in this country who take money out of everyone's pocket and have contributed very little (in many cases) to this country. Some of you against the teacher pension plan are the same ones who support illegals' entry to this country. Holy cow! Talk about backward!

At least educators went to college and contributed to society. Sometimes I cannot believe,what I read here. This is one time. Some people.....

I'm well aware of that, thank you.

I believe this was directed at me, and not Clem.

I've complained about illegals. Many on here have also.

I'm not complaining about teachers pensions, or state employee pensions, or public servant pensions etc, in the manner it may have come across as.

Heck, my mom taught for 38 or 40 years. She loves it.

I'm simply saying pensions are being reduced in many instances. There's a reason for that I believe. Now, don't get me wrong, some pension funds are in good financial shape today. Many aren't though. And I have a feeling those that are currently ok will, in some years, also come on hard times.

I see it no different than social security. We all know how s.s. is going - too many receiving (what they rightly earned, by the way), and not enough income going in. (it's a tad different with s.s., as the gov't. has used the money already, in a sense)

Just as s.s. is not sustainable without the gov't. borrowing, I see pensions in most situations as not self sustaining over the long haul.

Like I said earlier, the OTRS just reduced the benefits a year or 2 ago. Why?

j/c:

I am not certain of this, but I don't believe this is the direction Clem was hoping for when he started this thread.

You're probably right.

So, let's get back to it.

The teachers earned their pay under the contract both sides obviously agreed to when the contract was signed.

So, where's the money?

I just have to believe IF the money was there at some point in time, and it's obviously not there now, it would be rather easy to track it. Perhaps time consuming, but there should be some paper trail.

OR, if the money was never there to begin with, it should be fairly easy to find out as well.

The teachers earned, so where is it?

And the condition of the schools is a different discussion. The people of Detroit need to step up and pay more in taxes - that's the only way schools get fixed from a building structure stand point. (well, the state of Michigan as well - don't know how it works in Michigan for sure, but I would imagine the state contributes to local districts, right?)

More taxes.

I feel you are right Vers and offer apologies. This is most likely not the intended direction for this thread.

Now, this is one of the directions I had in mind.

I refer to my o.p.:



Detroit's crumbling school system has been in peril since the 1980's and even before. And yet, they have 2 new-ish sports complexes (Comerica Park and Ford Field) that were paid for (at least in part) by taxpayers' dollars. And then, there's this:


https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=ch...comerica%20park



Which brings us back to this point, made by my friend arch:



"pay more in taxes"... hmmm.
You mean that very thing which "smaller government" posters here routinely deplore?



It would seem that the citizens of Wayne County have actually already done their part. The problem (as I see it) is in where the decision-makers see fit to spend the money. Their priorities are on full display... and it's painfully obvious to me what they find important. Hint: it ain't the schools.

Now, there will be some who claim that the increased revenue from a revitalized downtown will contribute to the tax base, eventually finding its way to the public school system... but that smacks too deeply of "trickle-down economics" all over again- and the needs of the DPS are immediate.

To me, it's akin to feeding your child an ice cream cone when he's suffering from malnutrition. Vegetables, good protein and fruits are less sexy, but have a direct link to overall health.

They don't spend the money on the schools because they don't want to. And the very people who could be part of Detroit's "second renaissance" are being left out of its future.

.02

I'd argue a large portion gets spent on needless assessment measures. These standardized national tests don't come cheap.

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CJ and Vers, ever find a sheet or something that broke down per-pupil spending? I want to know cost by cost what the per-pupil funding goes towards. I feel like the current stat point shared is just tax revenue divided by number of students. We need to see where the money goes.

I'm absolutely in favor of smaller gov't.

What we're wading into here, in this discussion, might be a "cost benefit" analysis.

The cost of building new schools would be large, no doubt. And the benefit comes later, much later, with the added caveat that the benefit (kids that learn) may move out of town/state.

A new sports complex or stadium/arena costs much more, but provides immediate (relatively speaking) benefit.

With new schools, you still have to worry about kids not giving a crap about education. Sorry, but man, to me, that comes from parenting. (teaching a kid that education is important).

Why is it the Detroit Public School system, that appears to be in disarray, is underfunded, when apparently the suburban and/or private schools aren't?

I wish I knew more about school funding in Detroit, or even Michigan.


But, my guess is, the more tax dollars that come in, the more people at the top of the "chain" make.

Look at the city of Toledo. They're "broke" if you ask the mayor. No money to fund repaving streets, yet Paula Hicks Hudson (I believe that's her name) is able to hire more and more people in gov't.

People want to, and rightfully so, see results from their tax money. The results of new schools take time. The results of a new stadium appear much quicker.

It's our microwave mentality, in my opinion. I want something, and I want it now.

And none of this changes the "where'd the teachers pay money go" discussion.

If you're just looking at Wayne County, why do they have 35 different school districts with 33 different school superintendents that are compensated in total $5,869,674 per year (2012) to administrate one freakin county?

https://www.mackinac.org/depts/epi/salary.aspx

The teachers may not be getting paid but it sure looks like the superintendents are.

I just grabbed one school district randomly, Huron School district. They have a total of 4 schools, 2 elementry, 1 junior and 1 high school. The super gets $119,000 in salary, $20,819 in insurance, $23,392 in pension, $17,850 in pension insurance, $7,735 in travel, $6077 in "other" and $2549 in enrollment, 18 sick days and 20 vacation days, so 38 vacation days. His total compensation $194,873.

This is just for 2012.

Like you said, it sure appears the citizen are doing their part.

Try this

nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66

From experience, I can say much of the funding goes to special education (including ESL), charter schools, testing, reporting software and teacher training. Much of the teacher training is redundant and a reinvention of the wheel IMO.

This information does not break down per pupil spending but does demonstrate the umbrella of fund disperal within this country's public schools.

Private schools are not required to make a budget available to the public.