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Originally Posted By: Swish
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
No offense, but I think it quite clear that Freddie did a much better job w/Baker than Haley did.


I agree with this completely. Haley called played as if baker was Big Ben.

The problem now is that Freddie is also calling plays as if baker was Big Ben.


Haley - as the OC for the Browns - was straight trash. That's a fact I know form watching the games & I have zero doubt any review of data/stats will verify and confirm. As indicated in the press at the time of his release, Haley had designs on Hue's job and they might have been a huge factor, idk. What I do know is that Freddie ran plays with Haley's offense that were light years better than Haley's play calling last year.

Swish I agree and thought the same thing at some point this year - Kitchens calling Kitchens plays this year is like watching Haley call plays last year. Big plays, long route development to get WR's open.... and we don't have the OL, and Baker is losing or has lost his confidence so has happy feet.

It's a little frustrating to keep saying but the rookie HC needs time. I really think he is constantly schooled in games, and wish Kitchens would give up OC duties so he can be a better HC. Feh - we'll see what happens.

I'm at the game Sunday, hoping for a reversion to some shorter/quicker plays and more Chubb.


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j/c:

I think some things can be tweaked w/our scheme and play-calling, but it isn't the big deal that some are making it to be. While I don' put all the blame on Baker, he deserves quite a bit of it. When you have guys who played QB in the NFL pointing out some of the choices, decisions, and throws from Baker as a problem, it's probably wise to listen.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
j/c:

I think some things can be tweaked w/our scheme and play-calling, but it isn't the big deal that some are making it to be. While I don' put all the blame on Baker, he deserves quite a bit of it. When you have guys who played QB in the NFL pointing out some of the choices, decisions, and throws from Baker as a problem, it's probably wise to listen.


Based on the feedback of professionals who played the game being the ultimate arbitrator - and perhaps therefore diminishing the needs for us to actual debate things and just accept their opinions - I listened to local Charlotte Sport Radio about an hour ago driving home from the airport: I forget which ex professional player was discussing he Browns issues, but he was knowledgeable and seemed balanced. His assessment was that there is equal blame between Kitchens and Baker. He absolutely agreed that Baker doesn't look the same as last year and has struggled with accuracy and made some bad choices ... he also was highly critical of Kitchens and noted his struggles as HC and as the OC calling plays that take a long time to develop (he noted that Kitchen has some exposure or is an offshoot of the Arians offensive mindset of "going for it") ... and he also indicated that we have more than 1 weak link in the OL and that if Baker is waiting for things to open up, he may well feel like he's about to get killed even if the pocket is relatively clean.

Pretty certain I have heard similar on 850 AM this week too from pundits and players. I have not heard anyone say all the blame or even most of the blame lies with one or the other or the OL.


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Originally Posted By: mgh888
Your hate for Baker skews your perspective... completely, totally, utterly.



I don't hate Baker Mayfield. I am just point out what he has been so far.

What he did last year doesn't matter, there have many flash in the pan QB's.

Scott Mitchell threw for 4,338 yards(back in 1995 where it was much harder to pass the ball due to rules than it is now. You could mug receivers back then, hit them before the ball got there, etc it was all legit play) and 32 TD's, but he never done anything after that. Like Mayfield, Everyone thought he was the next franchise QB.

Rick Mirer as a rookie he set the NFL Rookie record for attempts, completions, and yards. He again however never done anything else in the NFL and his records were later broken by Peyton Manning. Again, like Mayfield, everyone thought he was the next franchise QB.

Derek Anderson from our own beloved Cleveland Browns won 10 games, threw 29 TD's, and over 3700 yards. He never got close to that again, many folks including people outside of Cleveland thought they finally found their QB, but he never reached those numbers again and done nothing after that.

In 1999 Steve Beurlein threw for 4, 436 yards and 36 TD's Everyone thought he was the "the guy", but he never was able to reach that success again.

Are you following me here? I could go on.

What Mayfield done last year doesn't mean anything. Past success does NOT indicate future success. A guy needs to pass the "eyeball test" and putting aside what Mayfield done last year, He is not passing the eyeball test.

Do you realize Baker Mayfield's QB rating of 13.1 is lower than any QB rating Deshone Kizer posted in the 2017 rookie campaign? How folks can defend that baffles me.

Look at Mayfield for what he is right now, forget last year, that was then, this is now. He isn't even playing up to backup quality at this point. Lots of fools gold and flash in the pan QB existed in the NFL in the last 30 years, and each game that goes by the more and more Mayfield looks like a Scott Mitchell or a Derek Anderson.

Its not that he isn't playing well, he looks completely LOST and SCARED out there. He doesn't even look like he even belongs on an NFL team. Right now he looks like a guy that only made the team because he was picked #1 by mistake.

The ball is in his court to fix this, but I have seen way too many bad QB's in my day. Just because he is the 1st pick in the draft doesn't mean he will end up being any good and right now he doesn't look good at all.

As i said before im willing to give him this year to figure it out and maybe next year if we see any progress, but right now he keeps taking steps backwards every week...i mean a 13 QBR that is beyond awful, beyond pitiful...The Patriots cut their back up early in the year and replaced him with someone for posting like a 68 QBR in relif of Brady...a 13? you kidding me?

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Quote:
His assessment was that there is equal blame between Kitchens and Baker. He absolutely agreed that Baker doesn't look the same as last year and has struggled with accuracy and made some bad choices ... he also was highly critical of Kitchens and noted his struggles as HC and as the OC calling plays that take a long time to develop (he noted that Kitchen has some exposure or is an offshoot of the Arians offensive mindset of "going for it") ... and he also indicated that we have more than 1 weak link in the OL and that if Baker is waiting for things to open up, he may well feel like he's about to get killed even if the pocket is relatively clean.

This is pretty much in keeping with what most rational folks on here have been saying... while others seem to want to focus on the ONE think we need to do to fix it all.... whether that ONE THING is Baker or Freddie or whatever... we have multiple things not working here...

The only thing I will say is that Freddie is at the top of the food chain so he is going to take the most heat...


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Originally Posted By: willitevachange
Quote:
if Dorsey wants to keep his job, he would be smart to give him the ball and get the **** out of his way.


The fact that you think you have an idea of what is going on, then believe that Dorsey is the one that is calling the plays and how many touches Chubb is getting shows you know nothing.


Really now? It was Dorsey that forced the trading of Carlos Hyde last year to play Chubb despite the fact that Hyde had 5 TD in 6 games...what more do you want from your starting RB? He was on pace for about 1100 yards...Dorsey wanted them to play Chubb so he made it happen.

Don't you kid yourself...Dorsey has big time say in who plays..Kitchens reports directly to Dorsey, Dorsey is his boss...why do you think he got the job? No way Arians,Williams, or McCarthy was going to be his underling...thats why they didn't get hired.

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You don't hate Baker? Sure you do.

Tell you what - tell me how awesome Baker was last year? Sell him to me as a Rookie that played well.... Detail the things he excelled at. Hint - one of the post-draft claims you made was that Baker has a weak, below average arm. Let me see if you can sing his praises and verify that you can admit how drastically wrong you were on that topic.... Once we've established how well he played last year and have some sort of datum point we can discuss this year.


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Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Quote:
His assessment was that there is equal blame between Kitchens and Baker. He absolutely agreed that Baker doesn't look the same as last year and has struggled with accuracy and made some bad choices ... he also was highly critical of Kitchens and noted his struggles as HC and as the OC calling plays that take a long time to develop (he noted that Kitchen has some exposure or is an offshoot of the Arians offensive mindset of "going for it") ... and he also indicated that we have more than 1 weak link in the OL and that if Baker is waiting for things to open up, he may well feel like he's about to get killed even if the pocket is relatively clean.

This is pretty much in keeping with what most rational folks on here have been saying... while others seem to want to focus on the ONE think we need to do to fix it all.... whether that ONE THING is Baker or Freddie or whatever... we have multiple things not working here...

The only thing I will say is that Freddie is at the top of the food chain so he is going to take the most heat...


Quote:
This is pretty much in keeping with what most rational folks on here have been saying... while others seem to want to focus on the ONE think we need to do to fix it all....


Who is trying to blame on one factor, other than perhaps KOB?

I have a feeling you are including me as part of the irrational group and that upsets me. I have never once placed all the blame on Baker. My comment that 888 replied to was that it was unwise to only blame the coaching staff and not even mention Baker.

There have not been very many "rational" takes about what is happening here. The biggest irrational take is when posters lead w/something like "your hate for Baker..." That has NOTHING to do w/how the team is playing or Baker is playing. It's a comment made to throw shade at another person and deflect attention away from Baker's performance.

I have tried very hard to have a rational discussion on here and my previous posts on this thread can confirm that.

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Baker needs to lose the weight that he put on over the offseason. He claimed that it is added muscle so that he can take some more hits, but it doesn't look like muscle. It looks like cheeseburgers. I feel like anytime you mess with a QBs weight or work to increase muscle mass, it ends up screwing up their mechanics. And I am sure that this is at least partially responsible for the poor accuracy that he has shown all season.

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I am not arguing w/you, but it looks like muscle to me. Baker even said he was hitting the weights this offseason when he made the comment about not working w/a qb coach. I have wondered if he is a bit to thick for a qb.

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A lot of excuses being made for Baker.

I think it all boils down to this --

1. Baker is not capable of executing the offense as implemented. The reasons are many.

2. The coaching staff is unable to change the offense to something he is capable of executing. Not sure of the reasons why. Could be that it's hard to change midseason. Could be that there is no offense that he can currently execute.

That's really all there is. The players outside of Baker are fine. Baker is the issue. Hopefully he improves as the season goes on. Hopefully he works hard in the offseason to get better.

It's a really unfortunate turn of events for a season the fan base waited a long time for. I don't know what all the solutions are, but I do know this...this fan base deserves better than what we've seen so far.

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Seriously, we will pound Seattle.


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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I am not arguing w/you, but it looks like muscle to me. Baker even said he was hitting the weights this offseason when he made the comment about not working w/a qb coach. I have wondered if he is a bit to thick for a qb.


Honestly, increased muscle mass from weights will definitely screw up mechanics. It decreases the range of motion and decreases flexibility. I think this is common knowledge among athletic trainers, and if the coaches are encouraging him to put on muscle by lifting, then they don't know what they are doing.

Tom Brady is tall and skinny. His workouts focus on small loads with resistance bands and a focus on muscle pliability. There are some videos on youtube about it. If I were a young quarterback worried about taking too many hits, I would look at the oldest QBs in the league and figure out what has allowed them to prolong their careers.

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Originally Posted By: lampdogg
Seriously, we will pound Seattle.
love the optimism Lamp ... let’s hope!


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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