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Willie, I would love to have nassib back in the fold. he is not a bum. as a situational pass rusher he could contribute. As far as Vernon, he is really well paid for his availability and productivity but I would not do anything until I had a better option aboard.

as for our new leadership, like most browns fans I will give them a chance to prove themselves. I think only a small number of our narrow minded fans have proclaimed them bums before they have done anything.

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Nassib is a huge liability against the run. No thanks.


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Get us a Bosa! Problem solved. thumbsup


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Originally Posted By: keithfromxenia
Willie, I would love to have nassib back in the fold. he is not a bum. as a situational pass rusher he could contribute. As far as Vernon, he is really well paid for his availability and productivity but I would not do anything until I had a better option aboard.

as for our new leadership, like most browns fans I will give them a chance to prove themselves. I think only a small number of our narrow minded fans have proclaimed them bums before they have done anything.


Hey look. Debate by insulting others.

Also, many of these guys were already here. Depo, Berry, Grigson, and other guys from the analytics were here and they went 1 and 31.

I also wasn't pimping Vernon. I just provided links to try to get to the truth after another poster said that Nassib played better than Vernon last year. God forbid we use actual facts in a discussion.

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I think people confuse highlights and what they see or hear in passing to determine if one player plays better than another. I sometimes fall victim to that myself.

The only way to truly make claims like that is to watch full games of players being compared and try to understand what they are seeing and what is being asked of the player.

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There is a lot to it. I actually worked for a collegiate scouting service for two years. Sacks are cool. However, some dudes rush full out and don't maintain outside containment or do not do a good job of gap responsibility.

There are a couple of posters who loved the Analytics guys when they were here and were always looking for ways to bash Dorsey. Nassib is one of the guys they pointed to. He did get some sacks and they brought hat up, but the guy is not a very good player.

And I say that as a guy who mentioned him as a possible draft choice back in the day.

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Olivier Vernon had 3.5 sacks in 2019 for his 15 million dollar pay check and only cost the Browns their best OLineman Kevin Zietler. He will more than likely be a cap causality this year.

Carl Nassib had 6 sacks in 2019. I am not saying I want him back in 2020. I just thought Vernon was a huge bust last year. Heck, Emmanuel Ogbah had 5.5 sacks last year and Vernon was suppose to be an upgrade for him.


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You can think what you want. I was just providing information from an independent source. Is that okay?

Btw............no one talks about this and some even say that the Browns got ripped off in the trades, but.......

With Zeitler, Barkley had about 300 fewer rushing yards this past season than w/out him.

Also, the Giants D was one of the very worst in the entire league last year and ranked below the Browns.

But, once again, let's not let facts get in the way of an agenda.

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Quote:
With Zeitler, Barkley had about 300 fewer rushing yards this past season than w/out him.


Barkley was dealing with a high ankle injury that hindered his productivity for weeks, missed three games, and had roughly 50 fewer rush attempts.

So yes, let's "not let facts get in the way of an agenda" by insinuating Zeitler was the main issue for his 300 yard discrepancy from 2018-2019.



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JMO, but it was dumb for Garrett to talk to espn and talk about this., No way anything good comes of it.


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Originally Posted By: Damanshot
JMO, but it was dumb for Garrett to talk to espn and talk about this., No way anything good comes of it.


I think you have your threads confused. Or I do.


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Sacks don’t tell the whole story
Sacks don’t tell the whole story
Sacks don’t tell the whole story

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j/c:

I was not insinuating that the Giants OL got worse w/Zeitler. He's a good player. However, there are a lot of folks on here who are acting like Dorsey got ripped off in the trade[s] w/the Giants. I don't agree w/that at all. Those guys did not help the Giants all that much. They sucked on O and D and had a worse record than the Browns.

Btw------OBJ had a core injury all year and recently had surgery for it. Vernon was also troubled by injuries during the year. Let's not allow those facts to get in the way of a good agenda, either.


With that said, I would not be surprised to see the Browns part ways w/Vernon. I only talked about Vernon because someone said that Nassib had a better year than Vernon. I posted PFF's grades on both Vernon and Nassib. Vernon's overall grade was significantly higher. The OP ignored that and came back w/more opinion.

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Don't you always trash PFF?

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We probably need to move on from Vernon.

He is in the last year of his deal at $15mil or so. I don't mind the money so much if he was the kind of player we would sign to one last contract.

Based on his age and injury history the last 3 years, we wouldn't sign him, so we might as well take the $15 mil this year and apply it to someone else. Be is possibly Sobert or another, and or use it in FA.

We have a lot of holes in the nuts and bolts positions on this team. Dorsey did a great job bringing in skill positions, but we need tackles on both sides of the Oline and one at DT. We need a guard. We need better backers, thought to be fair, we did draft two last year, so the book isn't closed on them.

He did what looks to be a good job of bringing in a couple of corners who might go from great, to at last good. He looks to have done a superb job job with our kickers.

I understand the Zeitler deal. John wanted OBJ and you can't give up crap to get a guy like that. He drafted Corbett the year before. He felt Corbett could take over. Well, it didn't work that way. I don't hold that against him. Nobody hits every dad-gum pick. If GM hits on 2-3 picks a year they are beating the average.

I honestly would have liked for Dorsey to be here today, and he could have. Maybe not exactly as it was, but he could still be GM had his ego not gotten in the way.

Dorsey has had 2 GM jobs, or was he GM in Green bay as well? Anyway, all ended in a power struggle of some sort or his inability to work well with others. He should still be the GM in KC. I don't know all the reasons why he was let go, but there had to be a reason, and evidently whatever the reason, the team didn't make a wrong decision.


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The problem is we don't have an answer on the roster to replace Vernon at DE. Not re-signing in the future is fine. Let him go and see if we get a comp pick. Why make a hole now if we don't need to, though?

Good DEs are hard to find. We have other needs in the draft, namely OT. Any free agents that would be better at DE are likely to be even more expensive.

What's the hurry to move on?


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Cut Vernon with no replacement or sign someone like Vernon to a similar contract but for more guarantees and longer terms.

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Originally Posted By: Bull_Dawg
The problem is we don't have an answer on the roster to replace Vernon at DE. Not re-signing in the future is fine. Let him go and see if we get a comp pick. Why make a hole now if we don't need to, though?

Good DEs are hard to find. We have other needs in the draft, namely OT. Any free agents that would be better at DE are likely to be even more expensive.

What's the hurry to move on?


The guy is injury prone. I don't like to make holes, but he will himself. If they can't play, that's a hole, right? The guy has injury history and in over 30. Hello?

I think a gamble worth taking. Maybe we don't have to do it right away. Not sure of his terms. Maybe we can wait.


Who would you rather have? No "both" as an answer for this question...Sohbert or Vernon?


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j/c

Within the fanbase, there seem to be some conflicting impulses. Gutting the roster produces angst among fans At the same time paying high salaries at positions of need where there aren't many obvious alternatives seems to be irritating fans just as much. I don't understand the compulsion to be top 5 or top 10 in cap space as a goal unto itself.

We have time to create the space needed to resign Garrett, Ward, and Mayfield. It would seem to make more sense to add depth to the roster with mid-level FAs who have upside and players on rookie contracts than to just go cutting guys willy-nilly.

Of course, there are players that should be released. Robinson, Hubbard, and Harris are on my list. The stopgap o-linemen that Dorsey signed should be allowed to walk too.

Signing and Edge player like Shaq Lawson makes more sense financially than Arik Armstead, Quinton Spain instead of Joe Thuney, maybe Ha Ha Dix can be signed to a reasonable deal and be serviceable while we develop a younger player. This is the approach I'd hope to see used this offseason.

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Quote:
I was not insinuating that the Giants OL got worse w/Zeitler


To quote your beer holder:

"Mmmm Hmmm"


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Who would you rather have? No "both" as an answer for this question...Sohbert or Vernon?


Both. There is no reason we can't have both Vernon and Schobert on the roster.

If you want to cut Vernon you are accepting Chad Thomas (PFF's worst graded edge defender in the league in 2019), Bryan Cox, Porter Gustin, or Robert McCray as his replacement There is no guarantee we can find someone of the same quality as Vernon on the free agent market or in the draft. On top of that Vernon only has one year left on his contract while a free agent would likely cost more money in guarantees which would inhibit re-signing guys like Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, Nick Chubb, and Baker Mayfield.

Cutting Olivier Vernon would be short-sighted. Let's keep our quality players for once.

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Originally Posted By: cfrs15
Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Who would you rather have? No "both" as an answer for this question...Sohbert or Vernon?


Both. There is no reason we can't have both Vernon and Schobert on the roster.

If you want to cut Vernon you are accepting Chad Thomas (PFF's worst graded edge defender in the league in 2019), Bryan Cox, Porter Gustin, or Robert McCray as his replacement There is no guarantee we can find someone of the same quality as Vernon on the free agent market or in the draft. On top of that Vernon only has one year left on his contract while a free agent would likely cost more money in guarantees which would inhibit re-signing guys like Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, Nick Chubb, and Baker Mayfield.

Cutting Olivier Vernon would be short-sighted. Let's keep our quality players for once.


Keep Joe Schobert/ Cut Olivier Vernon. He was a terrible [ick up last season. Did nothing to improve the defense. Actually, was a reason it was worse.


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Originally Posted By: Day of the Dawg
[Vernon] was a terrible [p]ick up last season. Did nothing to improve the defense. Actually, was a reason it was worse.


If by terrible you mean injured, then yes, he was terrible. When on the field Vernon was above-average in the run game and average in rushing the passer. You are not finding that on the open market for one year and $15 million.

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Originally Posted By: cfrs15
Originally Posted By: Day of the Dawg
[Vernon] was a terrible [p]ick up last season. Did nothing to improve the defense. Actually, was a reason it was worse.


If by terrible you mean injured, then yes, he was terrible. When on the field Vernon was above-average in the run game and average in rushing the passer. You are not finding that on the open market for one year and $15 million.


You can find his value to the team on the waiver wire. He done nothing!!!!


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Originally Posted By: cfrs15
Originally Posted By: Day of the Dawg
[Vernon] was a terrible [p]ick up last season. Did nothing to improve the defense. Actually, was a reason it was worse.


If by terrible you mean injured, then yes, he was terrible. When on the field Vernon was above-average in the run game and average in rushing the passer. You are not finding that on the open market for one year and $15 million.


I should amend this and say that you "probably won't" find a player like Vernon instead of "can't". Teams do luck into player like the Buccaneers did last year with Shaq Barrett bur there is a ton of uncertainty. Vernon at least brings certainty to the position whereas if we sign random player X as a free agent the results can vary a ton.

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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Don't you always trash PFF?



No, I don't.

I never agree that they are the end-all and question some of their ratings, such as when they had John Hughes as one of the top-rated DTs in the league. I also have thought that their DB ratings are peculiar at times. But, I think they do a good job and have posted their results numerous times.

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I don't agree with everything in this article but on the main point of keeping Vernon for the coming season, I do.

Browns May Not Love Olivier Vernon's Salary, But The Alternatives Are No Better
Pete Smith

Feb 13, 2020


Even if defensive end Olivier Vernon isn't worth $15.5 million this season, the Cleveland Browns need him more than he needs the Browns. Healthy, Vernon was the second best player on the defense last year behind Myles Garrett, providing a massive advantage the first half of the season, helping short-circuit Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore Ravens, giving them a golden opportunity to beat the Seattle Seahawks and serving up the Los Angeles Rams to an offense that couldn't capitalize. For a team that is trying to compete now and take steps forward, they don't have much leverage in negotiating with Vernon.

The Browns are likely to ask Vernon to restructure to open up some additional salary cap. And maybe Vernon and his agent would accommodate them on that front, but he's set to walk after this season anyway, so he may be perfectly happy to stand his ground for the full $15.5 million. The problem for the Browns is the previous general manager left them with a group of defensive ends that are largely unplayable. Outside of Garrett and Vernon, the rest of the edge players on their roster include Chad Thomas, who can't play dead, Porter Gustin, Bryan Cox Jr. and Robert McCray III, who didn't play last year.


In the event Vernon held his ground and the Browns opted to release him, they quickly become a desperate team when it comes to looking for edge help. The Browns aren't in a position to be competitive to go after players like Yannick Ngakoue, who could easily command a contract worth $17 million annually. They can try to cobble together a couple mid tier fee agents, but they may find themselves in a position where they have to overpay them, which is the problem they are already facing.

No, Vernon's not going to get $15.5 million on the open market. But whatever he gets, which could easily approach $10 million, it won't be in Cleveland. The moral high ground still leaves them with a massive hole at defensive end. To this point in his career, Vernon has earned $73.3 million. Maybe an extra $2 or $3 million is incredibly important to him, so he takes a small pay cut to stay with the Browns, but it just doesn't come off as a credible threat.

The Browns should look to address defensive end in the draft for life after Vernon, but with him in the fold, they can address it from a position of strength as opposed to chasing after a need. With offensive tackle likely to be their first pick of the draft, it would almost force them to take an edge player with one of their next three picks, regardless of the value, which is hardly ideal.

Vernon's contract figure may be cumbersome, but it takes care of itself after this year. The Browns have a very credible defensive end opposite Garrett that dominated multiple games last year, allows them to add edge help through free agency and the draft on their terms, and when he leaves in free agency next year, his parting gift could be a compensatory pick.

Most, if not all of Vernon's $15.5 million is going to go right to Myles Garrett in 2020. Currently, Garrett is slated to earn a little over $9.6 million in 2020. If the Browns simply pick up his fifth year option, he would then earn around $16 million in 2021. That's $6.4 million from the $15.5 million going to Garrett, leaving them with $9.1 million to operate with for that year. They still have to account for the money that is going to Garrett on his contract extension in 2021.

More likely, Garrett and the Browns will skip the fifth year option and go right to negotiating a massive contract extension to keep Garrett on the Browns for the next six or seven years, averaging in excess of $20 million per season. If that first year is close to $25 million, it completely encapsulates what Vernon was making this year. In that scenario, it's potentially Garrett and Vernon for one more year to then go to just Garrett. In 2021, they are already going to be making the same calculation when it comes to Denzel Ward and Baker Mayfield, so they just don't have much room to add multiple big contracts in free agency that cut into that space. In that sense, Vernon's contract, however ugly the number may be, fits right into where the Browns are headed anyway, but offers the opportunity to pick up a draft pick down the road.

The Browns have multiple avenues for cap relief.

Chris Kirksey - $7.55 million

T.J. Carrie - $6.35 million

Chris Hubbard - $4.68 million

Morgan Burnett - $3.375 million


Freeing themselves up from those four contracts would add $22.1 million in salary cap space, giving the Browns some flexibility to operate in signing their own players like Joe Schobert, if they choose to pursue that path, as well as making some moves in free agency. They aren't in a position to throw a ton of money around because of what's coming on the horizon, but they could add one premier free agent. Based on what's available in free agency as opposed to what's going to be coming in this year's NFL Draft, the most prudent move would be targeting a free safety with players like Anthony Harris and potentially Justin Simmons entering the open market.

They can certainly see if Vernon is open to taking a small paycut, but it's difficult to imagine he's going to give up $5 million this year, unless they plan to add years. There's just not much incentive for Vernon to do the Browns a favor when he's gone after this year anyway. Maybe he's willing to give up $2 or $3 million, because that would be more than he can get on the open market, but that's hardly a game changer for the Browns salary cap structure for this year or next. Vernon being the highest paid player on the Browns this year may not be ideal, but it's not nearly the problem its made out to be and the front office's options seem limited.

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Too cryptic for me.

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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen



Who would you rather have? No "both" as an answer for this question...Sohbert or Vernon?



I'd rather have Burris playing LB (or Harvey or Meander) than see Thomas taking major reps at DE.

For this season I'd rather have Vernon. His backups looked pitiful.

I don't want to overpay for an average LB because all his coaches have liked him. His picks last season came against Rudolph, who Myles terrorized that whole game, and Fitzpatrick, who was down 3 scores and was playing behind a porous OL.

I don't think any offensive coordinator stays up at night worrying about how he's going to handle Joe Schobert.

I think they'd worry a lot more about how to slow down Myles and Olivier. Myles and Chad Thomas not nearly as much.


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Originally Posted By: cfrs15
Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Who would you rather have? No "both" as an answer for this question...Sohbert or Vernon?


Both. There is no reason we can't have both Vernon and Schobert on the roster.

If you want to cut Vernon you are accepting Chad Thomas (PFF's worst graded edge defender in the league in 2019), Bryan Cox, Porter Gustin, or Robert McCray as his replacement There is no guarantee we can find someone of the same quality as Vernon on the free agent market or in the draft. On top of that Vernon only has one year left on his contract while a free agent would likely cost more money in guarantees which would inhibit re-signing guys like Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, Nick Chubb, and Baker Mayfield.

Cutting Olivier Vernon would be short-sighted. Let's keep our quality players for once.



As I said, why not hold him, then cut him?


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After reading the article I change my position, because as pointed out, we really don't have much choice


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