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#1679678 10/17/19 12:05 AM
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Because I'm more interested in seeing/hearing from all y'all, I'll simply drop this here, with no angle/spin of my own whatsoever.

link

I have to bail out now, because I have some pretty important upcoming personal/professional demands that limit me from monitoring this thread for the next few days. Nonetheless, I found it to be thought-provoking... and worthy of sharing with a community I still feel (marginally) emotionally attached to.

I can't wait to take inventory/notes.
I hope you all feel compelled to participate.

Drop your thoughts below this thread-starter.
Let's have some good talk, shall we?



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Excellent article. Thanks for sharing.

This is the beauty of Socratic Seminar teaching. Those who talk learn and those who participate hear diverse voices from their peers and not just their teacher. A very different approach to the old school style where the teacher stood at the front of the room and did all the talking and projected their voice and perspective. For many teachers they are afraid to do seminars because they think it is scary or that they are releasing control ("power"), but for my classes some of the most interesting, diverse, creative, exciting, charged and highest level of critical thinking has come out of Socratic seminars and it has changed the way I teach and I firmly believe it has changed the way my students learn.

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I'd be curious to see how these seminars went if there weren't grades attached. I think trying to get a good grade influences the discussion to a significant degree. When I went back to school, it definitely felt like getting the grade was the focus over actual learning. Responses were tailored to what individuals thought the instructor wanted to hear.

That's not to say the premise is wrong. But, it leads to the question how do we create a peaceful forum that allows free discussion between humanized individuals that isn't led or influenced by the moderator? Instead of the conversation being polarized between opposite sides as seems to happen "naturally," it is drawn toward the figure of authority's position in the classroom.

I'm not a fan of "trolley-type" questions. We need to find ways to reframe such questions, so that there aren't just 2 bad answers.

We live in a world where too often we end up picking between two bad options instead of trying to figure out better options.

Sure, there are situations where hard choices must be made. However, I think that one of our education system's issues is that it conditions individuals to think in binary. True or false. The one right answer is always presented as an option on the multiple choice test. The other options are always "wrong."

Is there another choice for the pro-choice side now? Can a pregnancy be continued outside the mother? With advances in technology, and what goes on in cloning research, I don't see how there wouldn't be more "options." Undoubtedly, they would open up their own questions.

Maybe new questions would lead to something other than the same tired answers that people can't seem to agree on.


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Probably the most profound and compelling thing I've read in quite a long time. Experiences like this are important, this is why kids (should) go to college.... to learn. Yes, learning the math or the theories that will help you get a job in life are important, but things like this are growth on a personal level that these kids will remember long after they forget the formula to calculate the effect of friction on velocity.

My favorite snippet from the whole article is this:

And it leads quickly to epiphany number two, which seems dramatically more important. If Americans are serious about reducing polarization, they’re going to have to start doing some careful listening, because what Jackson is saying has very little to do with what we say he’s saying.

I have had any number of heated exchanges on here with folks representing both sides.... if you take the conversation to PM and give them a chance to explain their position and the logic behind it.. and you get the chance to explain yourself and the logic behind it... almost always, the heated exchange turns into a rational conversation between two adults who realize they aren't really THAT far apart... they may never get to a point of 100% agreement, in fact they usually don't... but they develop an understanding...

Thanks so much for posting this Clem.. have you posted it on FB yet so I can share it? I would like you to get the credit. nanner


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There’s a lot to talk about here.

But for sure one thing that this article made clear: we can and MUST have a viable 3rd party. I think libertarians are too large of a group to be lumped into either the republican or Democrat party, when they are indeed their own political belief group/demographic.


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The abstract thing that hit home with me from this article is the absolute value and need for higher education for all. Think about this...

Each of the students in this story had opinions on these subjects that were strong and somewhat predictable at assumed ages of the 18-22 range. The precursory ingredients of their individual psyches were drawn 100% from the biases in their upbringing. These biases might vary in source from parents, church, local schools, common beliefs in their location, friends, family, social and life experiences. Most of this influence is completely out of their control.

It's not until a point that young adults are able to decide for themselves that they can search their souls for answers to these deep questions of ethics that help them define who they are to themselves. I think it's a great disservice to deny anyone the opportunity to become who they truly are at that level. Those not exposed to this sort of critical thinking might very well spend their lives playing out the role they were cast into by circumstances of birth rather than by drawing their own conclusions from a journey of self discovery.

Like this professor, I don't think it's the instructors job to dictate these internal values but rather to guide the process of self discovery. Likewise, I also don't think parents or any other social influence on a child should dictate these values and hoist them upon the young adult. It should always be a situation where a person can be who they are, not what they are expected to be.

My parents gave me that gift of freedom on religion. My mother is Christian and my father was Agnostic although he was raised Christian. Had church been forced upon me, had a sense of being wrong for not believing in god been forced upon me, would I be who I am today? When I think about how profoundly different I might be today from that one parenting choice being made in another way, I don't think I would recognize or even like who I might have been. Not having answers about religion and my own beliefs led me to seek answers for myself as a young adult. Today, I am comfortable with my position as a result of that bit of self discovery.

Politically I was not raised with a party affiliation, but taught to judge people by their character and qualifications so that I might support the candidates that I decided best represented me. Technically that should make me an independent, but somehow I latched onto the GOP at 18 years of age then slowly arced to being liberal with age and life experience. But who knows if my political pendulum is done swinging? Some days I feel full on progressive, while others I take much more moderate liberal views. Every now and then I even catch myself supporting republican ideas.

Getting back to my point. Although I was able to take my own personal self discovery journeys on these issues, I see others (usually not well educated) that just follow in the footsteps of their parents or others that influence them. They blindly accept what they are told to believe and defend that with every fiber of their being like an army of mindless drones. IMHO THIS is the real disconnect. People unable to think for themselves makes conversations in search of common ground damn near impossible. Not being open to other ideas, not accepting the rights of others to have varying views, and not fully comprehending the outcomes of their own 'set-in-stone' positions makes the hostility and tribalism we are witnessing today a reality. I think it boils down to the dumbing down of America issue coming home to roost. Education is vital to our democracy in so many ways, but maybe none more important than this.

I know there are more directly impactful takeaways from this well written article, but this is what I feel is the most profound among them.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 10/17/19 02:16 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Swish
we can and MUST have a viable 3rd party.



I couldn't agree with this more! We need a proper 3rd party that can poll 30% or higher to really shake things up. The current two party system sucks and to be honest, Bernie is the only politician who is honestly calling out how corrupt and broken the system is and championing to shake it up and deconstruct it, but he is doing so within the two party system, which admirable and I highly respect him, but we need more options!

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Originally Posted By: Bull_Dawg
I'd be curious to see how these seminars went if there weren't grades attached. I think trying to get a good grade influences the discussion to a significant degree. When I went back to school, it definitely felt like getting the grade was the focus over actual learning. Responses were tailored to what individuals thought the instructor wanted to hear.

That's not to say the premise is wrong. But, it leads to the question how do we create a peaceful forum that allows free discussion between humanized individuals that isn't led or influenced by the moderator? Instead of the conversation being polarized between opposite sides as seems to happen "naturally," it is drawn toward the figure of authority's position in the classroom.



A true Socratic Seminar is led by the people in the seminar. The moderator just makes sure it stays focused and on task.

Regarding grades....grades can be as creative as one wants. For example, if one held four seminars in a quarter/8 a semester the students would be expected to participate in at least 5-6 and passive listeners in 2-3. However, the seminars could also have two circles, an inner and an outer with two open chairs within the inner circle. Those who are discussing sit in the inner, while the outer are people listening and taking notes. If they feel compelled they can move into the inner circle (in the empty chair) and participate and those sitting in the inner circle can move outside of the circle to listen. Afterwards, a class discussion could be had regarding their thoughts on the seminar as well as Notes & written reflections on the seminar being turned in by all for a grade. It's not hard to have a rubric for all of the above, but one could also assign the reflection as the grade.

You would be amazed at how much students write and how honest and open they write when it is a private forum between them and the teacher (especially those students who struggle with anxiety)!

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Originally Posted By: Swish
There’s a lot to talk about here.

But for sure one thing that this article made clear: we can and MUST have a viable 3rd party. I think libertarians are too large of a group to be lumped into either the republican or Democrat party, when they are indeed their own political belief group/demographic.



There's no such thing in our system. A 3rd party that does not draw 1/2 of it's people from one party and 1/2 from the other is doomed to fail.


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Originally Posted By: Swish
There’s a lot to talk about here.

But for sure one thing that this article made clear: we can and MUST have a viable 3rd party. I think libertarians are too large of a group to be lumped into either the republican or Democrat party, when they are indeed their own political belief group/demographic.



I still say we would be better off with NO parties. That IMO would bring about more candidates who are neither far left or far right.


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Originally Posted By: GMdawg
Originally Posted By: Swish
There’s a lot to talk about here.

But for sure one thing that this article made clear: we can and MUST have a viable 3rd party. I think libertarians are too large of a group to be lumped into either the republican or Democrat party, when they are indeed their own political belief group/demographic.



I still say we would be better off with NO parties. That IMO would bring about more candidates who are neither far left or far right.


Before Trump, the party system at least gives you a baseline of who the candidates are before you have to choose. Now there are so many republicans flipping sides, Christians abandoning their values, and low life individuals crawling out of the underworld that the baselines are being destroyed. Never ever thought I'd live to witness the rise of fascism in the US, let alone have a fascist president.


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Originally Posted By: PDXBrownsFan

You would be amazed at how much students write and how honest and open they write when it is a private forum between them and the teacher (especially those students who struggle with anxiety)!


I suppose that would depend on the level of trust individuals had in the "instructor".

Can it work the way you describe? Sure. Does it typically work that way? I'm somewhat doubtful.

In a graded environment, people tend to say what they think the grader wants to hear.

It can work somewhat similarly in groups. If you "live" around Republicans, you can fall into the habit of giving them answers they want to hear. Same for Democrats, same for within ethnic groups.

We're a nation that assigns grades. Often at the expense of true learning and thinking. We're told this is the one right answer and expected to give it back.

Sadly, this approach extends to topics that are subjective.

People "assign grades" for preferences.

We spend too much time worrying about "the 'right' answers" rather than thinking about the ways we use to reach them and other possible answers.

I think the "one best answer" approach our education system often ("standard-ly") takes leads/contributes to intolerance. It sets a rigid framework for "thinking" that frequently relies on being told the answer beforehand.

It almost seems as if we have more of a grading system than an education system. Perhaps an indoctrination system.

I almost feel like we'd be better off if we did away with grades. The constant need to judge and be judged such a system engenders instills ways of thinking that are problematic.

Everyone shouldn't want to be the same. People should be encouraged to find new/different answers. To grow and change.


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Quote:
Before Trump, the party system at least gives you a baseline of who the candidates are before you have to choose.

No it doesn't. It gives you a baseline of who the candidates have morphed into in hopes of winning party approval.. which of their personal beliefs they had to abandon in order to tow the party line, etc.

Quote:
Never ever thought I'd live to witness the rise of fascism in the US, let alone have a fascist president.

I agree, that's why I could never vote for Beto.


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Beto with the pitchfork and torches, man. that dude is a nutbag. When Woke goes wrong.


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Beto is just feeding the far right.. it's giving them the "See, this is what they all want, this is how they think" ammunition... he's not doing the Dem party any favors overall.


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Originally Posted By: Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted By: PDXBrownsFan

You would be amazed at how much students write and how honest and open they write when it is a private forum between them and the teacher (especially those students who struggle with anxiety)!


I suppose that would depend on the level of trust individuals had in the "instructor".

Can it work the way you describe? Sure. Does it typically work that way? I'm somewhat doubtful.

In a graded environment, people tend to say what they think the grader wants to hear.

It can work somewhat similarly in groups. If you "live" around Republicans, you can fall into the habit of giving them answers they want to hear. Same for Democrats, same for within ethnic groups.

We're a nation that assigns grades. Often at the expense of true learning and thinking. We're told this is the one right answer and expected to give it back.

Sadly, this approach extends to topics that are subjective.

People "assign grades" for preferences.

We spend too much time worrying about "the 'right' answers" rather than thinking about the ways we use to reach them and other possible answers.

I think the "one best answer" approach our education system often ("standard-ly") takes leads/contributes to intolerance. It sets a rigid framework for "thinking" that frequently relies on being told the answer beforehand.

It almost seems as if we have more of a grading system than an education system. Perhaps an indoctrination system.

I almost feel like we'd be better off if we did away with grades. The constant need to judge and be judged such a system engenders instills ways of thinking that are problematic.

Everyone shouldn't want to be the same. People should be encouraged to find new/different answers. To grow and change.





I agree and disagree with some of the above. The best teaching is done when the students trust the instructor and feel safe in the room. That's when honesty, willingness to be vulnerable and an acceptance to take risks and accept failure happens.

Regarding grades...many schools on both coasts are doing away with grades and colleges are accepting this because let's face it...an 'A' in one school may be a 'B' or 'C' in same class/different school. And, grades don't tell the full story. A kid with a 63% says nothing about how they achieved that 63%...maybe they had a 12% at one point, maybe that kid is the care giver in their family, maybe that kid is in a foster home, maybe that kid has intellectual disabilities etc. etc. The grade tells us nothing about where that kid came from and what they have achieved or the trending in the right direction. So, yeah....a portfolio system would be more honest than grades.

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