Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
K
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
K
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
I am going to play a bit of "Devil's Advocate" here in this post. [b]I was not a fan of either Dorsey or Kitchens BUT there was more merit to keeping them than cleaning house.

1. Schedule:The Browns played 6 teams that are currently in the playoffs(Bills, Pats, Titans, Ravens,Seahawks, and 49ers) This is a VERY tough roe to hoe for a 1st year coach installing new systems on both sides of the ball. I don't care what your talent level is, it takes time to learn how to win these kinda games. To Kitchens credit he did beat the Ravens and the Bills so he was showing signs that he could compete in the NFL in the near future regardless of what You, Me, or the media thinks.


2. Divisional Games
- Kitchens is the 1st coach since Schotenheimer to beat every team in his division. This is a HUGE accomplishment considering Kitchens was in his 1st year, and showed very good growth and a very positive outlook that he just could move forward in the future.

3. Schedule Strength: The Browns only played TWO TEAMS in 2019 that ranked at the bottom of their respected division.(Dolphins and Cardinals) Our easy schedule wasn't actually easy at all. We had TWO other games where our opponents ranked 3rd place in their division (Jets & Rams) and the rest of our schedule was against TOP TEAMS in the NFL that ranked 1st or 2nd in their division. Even the Denver Broncos, who everyone on here said we were better than, and they stunk, are ranked 2nd in the AFC West.

This was one of the hardest schedules in recent memory.

4. Playoff Teams -Kitchens won 2 games against playoff teams(Bills and Ravens) in his 1st year. That is huge accomplishment for any 1st year head coach. He won those games against two of the NFL top coaches in McDermont and Harbaugh.

5. Dorsey, Kitchens, & Rumors of people wanting out- - This is where i believe had Dorsey been given more time, these situations would have been rectified quickly. Dorsey wanted to "keep Kitchens" this tells me that Dorsey planned on moving Landry and OBJ out of here this offseason. Dorsey was really going to flex his muscle and jettison anyone here that doesn't want to buy into the damn program. this is of course exactly what he should have done. The fact that Haslam listens to his "key players" on what coach they want means we will never have success here. when you get hired at a job, you don't get a choice who your boss is. these players need to learn to suck it up, tow the line, get paid, or get the hell out of here. I'd have no problem sending both Landry and OBJ packing, if they are not going to buy in and respect our coach, get out. Don't need you, can't win with you. We easily could have moved both those guys for decent returns and replaced them with receivers that will STFU and do their job. You don't need superstar receivers to win the NFL.

Towards the end of the year Kitchens was FINALLY starting to "get it" and was empowered by Dorsey to begin disciplining these guys. Njoku wouldn't tow the line so he was benched, Randall wouldn't follow the rules, so he was told to stay home at the Pittsburgh game, Higgins refused to play in the Seahawks game like a baby so Kitchens benched his arse.

Conclusion - Simply put, it takes time to build a culture. There was more than enough ample evidence to show that Kitchens was growing as a coach. That doesn't mean i liked Kitchens, to the contrary I thought he was an idiot, BUT he deserved more time. Jackson won 1 game in two years and was given a chance at a 3rd, Kitchens beat 2 playoff teams, beat every team in his division, and easy could have been 8-8 or 9-7 if a few things bounce our way, and he is fired after one year? and you fire your GM? That's kneejerk 101.

As much as it pains me to say this because I was and still am happy we moved on from Dorsey and Kitchens, I think doing so was a HUGE mistake that is going to set us back for a very long time. Its always important to look back on things and reflect from your mistakes, and learn from them. This mistake with Kitchens and Dorsey is the same exactly mistake we made with Chud/Norv Turner, and Banner.

Simply put, the Browns would have probably been better off staying pat with Dorsey and Kitchens, moving OBJ and Landry out of here, using that freed up cap money to Sign Hunt and Schobert longterm, and using the draft capital from those trades to draft some WR. Look at the Steelers, they never sign WR, they draft everyone. WR are not integral to winning championships.

We could have made some changes to the coaching staff, replacing Monken, Having Kitchens let the OC call the plays with some interjections here and there as Bel;lichik does it in NE, and let Dorsey be the guy who hires his staff.

Remember Dorsey told us to not buy the hype. This was a 3 year thing, that the teams and Kitchens were to grow this year

http://www.nfl.com/videos/good-morning-f...e-it-s-not-real

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2837...cle-this-season

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/...33-e5b990ea5c1d

I think Dorsey was beginning to see that OBJ and Landry were going to be problems, they were not going to buy in like Hunt did. When Hunt was talking about guys not giving their all or enough effort he was talking about OBJ and LANDRY. Those comments were specifically targeted at them. You could see Landry rounding off routes or jogging, OBJ refusing to huddle up, etc...thats NOT a coaching problem, thats just being an arsehole.

Dorsey made a few mistakes, but they were not ones that could not be quickly fixed. We would have gotten better with addition by subtraction by moving Landry, OBJ, Njoku, and Randall, those were the big 4 malcontents. We had enough young talent to delop on the roster to do without those guys. We could have brought in a FA safety to replace Randal, we also had a pretty good draft position.

Were we very poised to make a HUGE jump next year. I 100% believe Dorsey plan was to jettison OBJ, Landry, Randall, and Njoku, and keep Hunt Longterm and focus the O on running the ball with Hunt and Chubb, fixing the OL, and bolstering the D with a few changes to Kitchens staff.

With this being Dorsey 1st coaching hire sometimes it takes a year to feel things out. Kitchens wasn't as bad of a hire as the biased media wants you to believe when you look at the overall picture. Bad coaches don't beat playoff teams with a bunch of malcontents on the team undermining him along the way. The Steelers would have kept Kitchens and Dorsey and stayed the course. Thats why they are successful and we are not. The Steelers made mistakes with two superstars too in Bell and Brown, both malcontents, they had to jettison those guys to get back to where they need to be.

As sad as it is, we are probably looking at another cleaning of house in two years, rinse and repeat. the Haslams just don't give anyone a chance. Dorsey was saddled with Hue Jackson his 1st year, so he wasn't even given the customary two years a GM gets with his 1st coaching hire. Things like this take time.

The biggest issues I myself saw this year was Mayfield didn't play well, and we had guys like Landry and OBJ not giving their all being lazy, thats not a coaching problem, thats players being morons. If OBJ was hurt so much he should have got surgery and not played.

Until the Browns and ownership back a coach and GM 100% and gfet out of the way and give them 4 unfettered years to do what they need to do, we will never fix this problem.

What Kitchens was able to accomplish this year, he should have been given another year and so should Dorsey. They should have been allowed to jettison the malcontents, make a few changes to the coaching staff, and bring in a few more people. Sure Dorsey brought in OBJ and Landry, and it was a mistake, no one is perfect, but they were NOT the level of mistakes that Dorsey could not have rectified this offseason.

Regardless, thats my thoughts after reflection. I wasn't a fan of either Kitchens or Dorsey, but look at the results, the schedule, who he beat, etc...they both deserved another year.

Thoughts?

Last edited by Knight_Of_Brown; 01/01/20 11:53 AM.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
1
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
1
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
After hearing Monkens talk about Freddie and the playcalling I cant help but think they did the right thing. If you cant delegate and relinquish any power you're not any kind of leader nor will you be until you do some soul searching.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
K
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
K
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Originally Posted By: 1oldMutt
After hearing Monkens talk about Freddie and the playcalling I cant help but think they did the right thing. If you cant delegate and relinquish any power you're not any kind of leader nor will you be until you do some soul searching.


Perhaps, but there is also the possibility that perhaps Kitchens was beginning to realize that calling plays was too much and he may have been willing to give up those duties to an OC, and that changes everything.

I think Kitchens would have given up those duties had Dorsey persisted, I think Kitchens wanted to be here and that was more important to him than calling plays. Sure, the guy has an ego and wants to try and succeed calling plays, but after some offseason reflection I think he would have been amicable to giving those up to a coordinator.

Remember he is a young guy still learning his way, we gave him the opportunity, I think if we had stuck by him he would have been OK with that.

Last edited by Knight_Of_Brown; 01/01/20 11:56 AM.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,839
Likes: 11
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,839
Likes: 11
They did the right thing. Freddie was over his head. If there were reports that Monken was actually helping to teach/groom Kitchens, then cool. But it's coming out that that wasn't the case.

If Freddie can barely call plays, and I know he is no where near being capable of bearing the responsibilities in coaching an entire team.

Dorsey simply put all his eggs in one basket with hiring Kitchens. He thought the talent would outweigh the lack of coaching experience, and it backfired. Not to mention the arrogance he displayed with members of the front office.


[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
K
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
K
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Also, I don't think Monken and Kitchens really got along out the gate. that was just a bad pair on the part of Dorsey. It happens, sometimes guys just don't work well together. I don't think that was any reason to blow everything up though without trying to tweak the program.

More positives than negatives happened this year.

Beat two playoff teams
beat every team in our division
Chubb had a huge year

Bad coaches don't beat playoff teams, and He also beat Tomlin who I think is also a very good coach...there was lots of positives for Kitchens. Its just the media and Haslam just isn't patient enough to let anything take root.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
K
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
K
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Originally Posted By: HotBYoungTurk
They did the right thing. Freddie was over his head. If there were reports that Monken was actually helping to teach/groom Kitchens, then cool. But it's coming out that that wasn't the case.

If Freddie can barely call plays, and I know he is no where near being capable of bearing the responsibilities in coaching an entire team.

Dorsey simply put all his eggs in one basket with hiring Kitchens. He thought the talent would outweigh the lack of coaching experience, and it backfired. Not to mention the arrogance he displayed with members of the front office.


True, but just because a guy is in over his head doesn't meant he won't ever figure out.

Every manager in in "over his head" initially, it takes time to get up to speed on company process, etc. Kitchens was still learning as HC. It takes time to learn how, when, and what to delegate. It takes time to get a feel for everyone on your staff and what managerial style works best.

We knew hiring Kitchens going in that it was going to be a few year process. Dorsey said as much in his May press conference trying to calm the hype. The Haslam's signed off on it and gave it their stamp of approval, and then backed out of it in a year.

Again, he beat two playoff teams, He beat every team in his division, He Beat Harbaugh, McDermont, Tomlin. I'd argue for a 1st year position coach to a head coach he "over achieved" considering the state of our OL

Face it, had Garret not gotten suspended, we win 9 games. We beat Arizona, and we beat Cincy a 2nd time for a 9-7 record. Its nut to give up on a coach so quickly.

Monken was a bad pairing, it happens, move on and hire someone else and tweak the staff, don't clean house like an idiot.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,414
Likes: 711
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 51,414
Likes: 711
We won’t know until we see how our #1 overall pick responds to the new hires. Maybe him and Haslam can find a homeless guy to guide them in the decision.


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

- Theodore Roosevelt
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
1
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
1
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
With a pretty decent roster in place the time for Freddie to learn and grow wasn't viable. This roster probably needed the vet coach from square one.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465
H
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
H
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465
Freddie was a former Quarterback. Going back to the sandlots, QBs want to call their own plays, so I have no doubt that ego played into it. Freddie had not called plays at all, not in college at Alabama, or in his time coaching in the NFL, until 2018. He was still learning what he did not know. He was stubborn, and did not want to give up play calling, not even to someone who had the NFL's #1 passing offense the previous year.

Maybe, given time, he would have relaxed, but the NFL is a business and you only have so much of a window to work with. With Contracts, Free Agency, # 1 draft picks playing on rookie contracts, and already spending most of our cap space, by the time the window closed, Freddie may have discovered, what he should have already known to be remotely qualified to be a head coach. Too little, too late. Freddie was not ready ...

This is why I want an experienced Head Coach who has a winning record.


The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,456
Likes: 1269
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,456
Likes: 1269
Originally Posted By: Knight_Of_Brown
Perhaps, but there is also the possibility that perhaps Kitchens was beginning to realize that calling plays was too much and he may have been willing to give up those duties to an OC, and that changes everything.



Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,829
Likes: 177
H
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
H
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,829
Likes: 177
Agreed. When players have no respect for their coach and there is chaos it's time to move on. We won those 3 games in our division and beat those playoff teams in spite of our situation not because of it. With a good HC, discipline, everyone on the same page and our talent we probably would have won 10 games. JMO

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 446
Likes: 1
B
1st String
Offline
1st String
B
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 446
Likes: 1
I feel moving on from Kitchens needed to be done, but moving on from Dorsey could be the BIG mistake, he has cred around the league, hence why he was able to pull in some good talent. I know we had some picks as well, but now who you gonna bring in and they will not have as good a stockpile of picks to play with.

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,456
Likes: 1269
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,456
Likes: 1269
j/c...

Finished up listening to Zac Jackson's podcast Civilized Barking on The Athletic and Zac said, with 30 seconds left before halftime, Todd Monken, instead of heading to the locker room was in line in the press box getting food.

Lol.

Pretty safe to assume they all knew they were getting canned.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,266
Likes: 1330
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,266
Likes: 1330
#ToddMonkenFreed


Tackles are tackles.
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 320
G
2nd String
Offline
2nd String
G
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 320
Moving on from Kitchens had to be done. I feel the Browns under acheived big time and lacked no leadership from either Kitchens or the players.
His play calling and game management was terrible.
The team lacked discipline on the field and off.
Baker had regressed under Kitchens. Baker needs to be a game manager at this point in his career and with Chubb and Hunt it would have let Baker develop at a slower pace. Freddie called plays like he had Drew Brees at QB instead of a young QB that needs coached hard.
As for Dorsey, I thought he did a lot of good things but also a lot of bad. The hiring of Kitchens was at the top of the bad list.
Under Dorsey and Kitchens the teams idenity had become one that had too many ME players and no discipline.
From what I've read, Dorsey was unwilling to give up any power and thus would make hiring an experienced coach unlikely.
Dorsey's strenth was as a talent evaluator with no regard for charactor. That type of player can be very hard to coach or build team chemistry around even for a veteran head coach.
I do not expect the new GM and coach to blow things up but I do expect some players will be sent packing. With Baker, Chubb, Ward, Hunt, Bitonio, Tretter, Garrett, Oganjobi, Richardson, Landry,Schobert, Wilson, Williams, Thomas and Mittchell we have a good core of players.
Finding the right head coach and GM needs to be done correctly. I would much rather Depodesta makes these dicisions than Haslam.

Last edited by Glw12; 01/01/20 01:38 PM.

I just want a winner. We need players who can be part of the solution not part of the problem.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 66,909
Likes: 1296
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 66,909
Likes: 1296
The answer to all of this will be the same as it's always been. What will the Browns do moving forward? And just as always you'll have those looking back at "what might have been" if we would have stayed the course. Hey, we still have that with a group that went 1-31.

As long as you don't have an answer people will always second guess where you were before.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,923
Likes: 343
Legend
Online
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,923
Likes: 343
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
#ToddMonkenFreed


#FeedToddMonken


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 66,909
Likes: 1296
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 66,909
Likes: 1296
I don't think Monken will need to visit the food bank any time soon. wink


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,923
Likes: 343
Legend
Online
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,923
Likes: 343
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't think Monken will need to visit the food bank any time soon. wink


#ToddMonkenFed? wink


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 2
H
Rookie
Offline
Rookie
H
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 2
If theres a mistake to be made, you can be certain this group will find a way.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,602
Likes: 585
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,602
Likes: 585
A lot of wild speculation and "what if" and "maybe" - I'll stick to the facts:

1. I saw Freddie as HC and he was really bad.
2. All I wanted was to see improvement - and other than reducing penalties for a few games there was no improvement.
3. In games 15 and 16 it was clear the players had no respect for Freddie.
4. After the end of the season it was even more apparent the players have no respect for Freddie as the Head Coach of the team.
5. Add in some of the incidental stuff that's been discussed (like the Monken quote above) ... it's even worse.

There is no "might be a colossal mistake" .... Keeping Freddie was not an option. John Dorsey? I would have been okay keeping him and giving the moves he made this year that appeared to go so wrong (largely through a lot of injury) play out.

I'm pretty sure Freddie won't ever be in an offensive coordinator role again in the NFL - and I am dang sure he will never, ever be a head coach again.

Last edited by mgh888; 01/01/20 02:14 PM.

The more things change the more they stay the same.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,571
Likes: 507
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,571
Likes: 507
I thought the Tennessee game was perhaps the worst coaching job I’ve ever seen ... and things really didn’t change much from there. Sure, we’d have a nice game or drive or whatever, but it was a disaster.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,066
Likes: 10
D
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
D
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,066
Likes: 10
Interesting viewpoint. One big hole I see in it however is the part about Freddie being empowered to discipline players. If Landry and OBJ were as big of problems as suggested, why were they not benched?


"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton

-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 22,503
Likes: 176
L
Legend
Offline
Legend
L
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 22,503
Likes: 176
Basically you had two guys that couldn't get past their ego for the better of the team...Good Riddance


Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1
Rookie
Offline
Rookie
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1
Some really good points from both sides of the aisle. Regarding the Freddie Kitchens play calling, the same thing happened in Atlanta. Dan Quinn was calling all the defense plays along with being the HC. They went 1-7. He made changes and delegated some responsibilities and they went 6-2. Would that have happened here, who knows but either way, I was never sure that Kitchens was the right guy for the job. We have a very young team and a lot of these guys don't really know how it feels to win. Same for the head coach. I do however, think letting Dorsey go is a mistake. I don't know if any comment has been made here or in the media about it but it appears that the owners think highly of Josh McDaniels and I don't think Dorsey did and didn't want him as the head coach and I agree with Dorsey 100% on that. He has failed everywhere he's been a HC, the whole fiasco with the Colts. just not the kind of guy we need leading this team. Just my 2 cents on it.


Continuous improvement is better than delayed perfection.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 835
Likes: 5
All Pro
Offline
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 835
Likes: 5
I am not against either of these guys being shown the door. I would have preferred to keep Dorsey and stick with some kind of plan. But with this organization...Who knows if that window is even open any more for the current roster? Why would the players continue to buy into this team if they have even less direction than they had this season? If they hire another "it thing" coordinator I think I will be done giving any of my time to the NFL. I do not see anything good coming out of starting all over yet again. I expect another decade of misery. I would like McCarthy. Just my two cents.

Last edited by Woofurious; 01/01/20 07:05 PM.

Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,241
Likes: 100
H
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
H
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,241
Likes: 100
all 1 of them.

Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,804
Likes: 50
I
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
I
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,804
Likes: 50
Kitchens had no reason for a ego. He should have been Just happy he was handed a job without earning it .

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,759
Likes: 116
S
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
S
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,759
Likes: 116
What people overlook was Kitchens success last year was calling Haley's offense. When he started calling his own offense this year it was pitiful. If anybody has NFL gamepass watch the plays develop. The scheme was horrible and predictable. I really liked Freddie, but he was no HC, and I don't think he would have been a good OC.


"The Elf is killing the Curse"
DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why moving on from Kitchens & Dorsey could be a collosal mistake.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5