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I think that Taylor will, at the very least, help plug up the middle against the run. If he helps in that regard, then he's an improvement. I think that he'll be a nice interior partner for Rubin, and should help free up the speedier outside guys.

I really like the DE we took in the 2nd. He's a solid pass rusher with good technique. I think that he'll do well for us.

The WR, TE, and FB .... those are my really, really questionable picks. I would have gone with Cobb over Little. Maybe Cobb doesn't have as much upside, but he sure looks like a natural WCO WR, with a great release, and really good hand to go along with exceptional routes.

The TE .... meh. I'm not terribly impressed. He's another boom or bust kind of player in my eyes. Maybe he'll be great ..... maybe he'll flat out stink. Hard to tell with so little to go on other than measurables.

The FB ..... what a waste of a pick. He could be the best damn FB in the world, and we still could have gotten better value in the 4th. I'm not happy with this pick. The guy is slower than our DE. He runs a 4.81. 335# Phil Taylor runs a 5.20. So .... in a foot race, this guy might outrun a NT. Forgive me if I am not impressed. He did very little in a 4 year college career .. other than playing both ways. You cannot teach speed, and this guy has none. He is almost the opposite of the other guys .... he has terrible measurables, and modest production in college. This is the pick that really confuses me the most out of all of them. This seems like a pick we could have used better. If we wanted a great receiver out of the backfield, with great speed, who has been used as a blocker as well, then we could have looked at Charles Clay. (who went in the 6th round) He had over 2500 receiving yards in college, and is a bigger, stronger, and faster player than Marecic. I just don't get the pick at all. I think it was a wasted pick. Time will tell.

The last 3 picks? Don't know much about them, and if we get anything more than special teams guys from the 5th on we're doing OK. I see why we took the CB .... because he's fast. Pinkston seems like a high effort kinda guy. The S almost seems like a guy we could bulk up and make a LB out of. Maybe add 20# and put him at OLB. He's slow ... but seems like a player. Who knows? We'll see.

First impression is that this draft looks a whole lot riskier than Heckert's first draft. We'll see how it plays out. Hopefully all of these guys play at a high level.


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what getting a fat poorly conditioned DT with weight issues when the team dumped a pro bowl fat poorly conditioned DT with weight issues seems like spinning your wheels, when a fantastic OT Carimi was available. yeah i want to throw up as well.




First off, I do not post on here often, but I read here every day. So if I get banned so be it. But Akron you absolutly know nothing about football.. You probably did not even play little league. You know as much about football as my kids. Please stop posting on here and let me read from posters that actually know something about football.

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what getting a fat poorly conditioned DT with weight issues when the team dumped a pro bowl fat poorly conditioned DT with weight issues seems like spinning your wheels, when a fantastic OT Carimi was available. yeah i want to throw up as well.




Akron Joe You must really have stones to be on talking about anything related to player evaluation.You have proven yourself to be so utterly wrong that one would think you would keep your trap closed for a bit or at least see the guy on the field before spouting your nonsense, but no, not you.

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Quote:

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taylor fills a self created hole of dumping Shaun Rogers. We went sideways at best.




SO what you are saying is that regardless of HOW we got the hole ... it WAS there. In other words ... we could have taken Carimi and potentially had a dominant O-Line ... but we wouldn't have had ***ANYTHING**** outside of Rubin at the D-Tackle spot.

You yourself acknowledged that the hole was there.




You only need 1 DT if Eric Mangini is still the HC and we're still running a 34.

Yeah, I went there!

And for the record, as much as I disliked our first round, I really liked the rest of our draft for the most part.

Phil Taylor - starter at DT from day 1. Disappointing knowing we had the #6 pick and had to burn a 3rd to end up with this guy, but I do think he'll be a good player for us at 43DT.

Grade C+

Jabaal Sheard - starter at DE from day 1 opposite Jayme Mitchell. He was the best pass rushing 43 end on the board when we picked and it was a huge need for us. He may not ever be elite but he was on my short list at 37 from the start. Our starting DLine is now set : Mitchell/Rubin/Taylor/Sheard.

Grade : B+

Greg Little - good God do I hate this pick. First the guy is an idiot for accepting $$ from an agent. Second, he has only played the WR position for 2 years. He's a freaking RB/wildcat QB. Third, he has questionable route running skills...aka the 2nd most important thing for an NFL WR right behind hands. Sure he has eye-popping athleticism but that usually gets you drafted for Oakland not real teams. Personally I think Baltimore rat-effed us by taking Torrey Smith one spot ahead of us at 58. I HOPE he was our actual target and then once he was gone we panicked and took Little. But, even if we were hell-bent on a WR here Randall Cobb or Leonard Hankerson were still on the board. Hello?

Grade : D

Jordan Cameron - Well this is a head scratcher but he is very athletic and a good catcher. Good fit for a WCO TE. This pick makes a LOT of sense IF IF IF we're trading/getting rid of one of Watson or Moore. If not, I'm not too sold on taking a 3rd string TE in the 4th round. I'm grading this assuming we're getting rid of one of the other two and he'll be in the TE rotation this year.

Grade : C+

Owen Marecic - probably my favorite pick of our entire draft. No not probably it IS my favorite pick of the draft. He's athletic enough to run the football, but he really excels as a pass-catcher which is the most important skill-set for a WCO FB. Vickers is gone. He was gone the day we hired Shurmur and switched to the WCO. I'm sad to see him go but Marecic will be a S-T-U-D for us at FB, you wait. Not to mention he's plain mean. Marecic and Hillis in the same backfield? Look out. He's an iron-man who played FB AND MLB AND special teams at Stanford. He was a fan favorite and more importantly Harbaugh's favorite player on their team. Not only will he be our starting FB day 1 but he will bring his LB skills to special teams and will be a ST DEMON. Cleveland fans will learn to love Owen Marecic.

Grade : A

Buster Skrine - A fast corner from a small school. Flew under a lot of people's radar. Definitely worth a flyer late in the draft where we got him. Sometimes these under the radar guys turn into gems. Sometimes they don't. Worth the gamble.

Grade : C+

Jason Pinkston - Just terrific fantastic value this late in the draft. I had him at #90 on my board and we got him at #150. I think he's too small to play tackle in the NFL so he kicks inside to guard but you never know. Could be Steiny's future replacement at LG or (more than likely) he's the future starter at RG or maybe even our RT. I was hugely disappointed in Lauvao last year so this is a young guy to develop on the right side of our line IMO.

Grade : B

Eric Hagg - Meh. Another safety from Nebraska. He's more of a hitter than a coverage guy IMO and we already have Ward for that role. I doubt he makes the team but being the 6th from the last pick in the whole draft I'm not too worried about it.

Grade : C


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Hahaha. I can't argue with you there, but what I SHOULD ask ... is if Eric Mangini is still running the team ... would we trade down from 5 to 27 and only get an extra 4th round pick plus a 3rd string d-end for depth?

Seriously though. We are where we are, and to complain or be in disagreement is one thing, but to be mad about certain picks simply because they fill holes is starting to get out in left field.

If anyone on here thinks that keeping a monster when motivated shaun rogers (but the guy who played in 15 games and produced 17 tackles, a blocked field goal and 2 sacks ...in 2010 all for the discount rate $6.9 million .... ) then that's their business. BUT, let's say that we DO think we can push for the post season and the playoffs even by next year ... do we really want to try to get there with a 33 year old rogers who has already been banged up?

Makes sense with the youth movement to see him go. And, as long as he is gone, I would rather have an anchor in there with a first (or any early) round pick then go another season where we surrended 5+ yard runs on every play.


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It's funny because they've been having the same arguments that we're having, over on the San Diego radio talk shows. People are upset that they took a non-sexy pick in Corey Liuget.

The one host had a real good point though ... He said something along the lines of:

"Liuget is never going to win any awards, will probably never go to any pro-bowls, and you'll likely not hear his name mentioned more than a couple times a game ... but if the Chargers had a guy like Corey Liuget on their roster for the last 4 years, they probably would of gone to 3 Super Bowls and won at least one of them." His reasoning was ... no matter how good the rest of the Chargers were, they were always getting run on up the middle. It didn't matter if they had Shawne Merriman, Antonio Cromarte or Shaun Phillips behind their line, they still couldn't get the big stops when needed. Add in a guy like Liuget (or Taylor) and suddenly the line is plugged, blockers are occupied, guys like Phillips and Merriman are free to run rampant, teams can't just pound the ball on you and control the clock, and the Chargers likely win some playoff games they should of the last few years.

The jist of his argument was that adding a guy like Liuget or Taylor is going to upgrade one position with a superstar ... it's going to upgrade one position quietly and give the other ten spots a better chance to be superstars.

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If anyone on here thinks that keeping a monster when motivated shaun rogers (but the guy who played in 15 games and produced 17 tackles, a blocked field goal and 2 sacks ...in 2010 all for the discount rate $6.9 million .... ) then that's their business.




The biggest knock I've heard about Rodgers is that he was undisciplined because he wanted "stats" ... A good DT is sort of like a good guard, in that the less you hear their name the better. DT's are supposed to build a wall at the LOS, which stops runningbacks from waltzing up the middle, lets the DE's collapse the pocket and get sacks, frees up the linebackers to occupy holes instead of having to shake off blockers, and prevents QBs from stepping up in the pocket and seeing instant daylight.

Rogers would try and blow up his man off the line of scrimmage trying to make a play in the backfield, and if the guard would push him far enough out of the way or the running back sidestepped him, there was now a huge gaping hole in the line for the RB to walk through. Sure he would get some sacks and put some pressure on the QB, but that's really suppose to be the DE and blitzing linebackers jobs. If a DT gets a sack, it should be because he stepped up into the pocket and ran into a wall.

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Absolutely agree. This past year we moved him to d-end as well. I know 3-4 ends still aren't supposed to do a ton, but he didn't exactly do a lot this past season. I understand that he could have rebounded as well from coming off an injury, but it's hard for 375 pound men to work back from a leg injury especially when they are into their 30's.


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I was surprised at the Liuget pick because I had only heard him talked about as a 3T DT and Jordan ws still on the board. If he can hold down the DE spot for them, then it was a good pick.

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If he has plus mobility, then we would have a pair of DT who both have plus mobility. Rubin is excellent in that regard, and chases down everything.

I'm kinda excited to see these guys like up together.




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I'm going to go a similar route as joe.

I say similar because I am putting up the disclaimer that I DON'T know all that much about football and subsequently could be totally wrong.

I just spent a good chunk of the day watching highlights of Taylor on youtube, and I'm really not that impressed. The guy was singled up half the time, and really didn't get that much push on most of his plays. More often than not, he would get pushed aside, turned around, etc. (out of position).

Lots of draft "experts", the general consensus on this board, and most draft grader-guys would lead me to believe that I'm wrong, but I'm looking at videos ("highlights" at that) and I just can't see it.


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I see what you're saying since I've seen those as well. I do think one thing to consider is how many snaps he spent out on the football field. Also, bluntly, the fact Django and Mourg are both very high on this kid really makes me intrigued by him.


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You present a valid argument, even though it doesn't mention any ham sandwiches ...

I guess I would have to ask, how "good" has baylor been recently? I mean, not that a lack of talent is everything, but it's not like he was at Butch Davis' North Carolina where they had 5 to 6 projected NFL players on the front 7.

I obviously didn't see what clips you were looking at, but many that I saw with Taylor showed him being double teamed and then often chipped by a back as well, yet his motor had him at least pushing people back still and driving towards the play. The things that stood out the most were where I would see him make a tackle on the other side of the field even if it was 5 or 10 yards downfield. That's hustle for a big man.


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I have seen some plays that kind of remind me of Rubin.

If he can play at that level, we'll have an outstanding interior to our DL ... and a great foundation for our 4-3.


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I probably saw the same clips as o-n, because I came away with the same feeling. If he plays up to his scouting reports, then great. If he's just a guy out there, then he counts as a third round bust, because that pick we traded should have otherwise been a starter.

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Here's a clip against Oklahoma (who probably has better talent - I think it's safe to say that).

First play ... beats the center while baylor blitzes - still gets in the frame to chase down the running back as it was a flare out to the flats.

Second ... recognizes the screen and shows quickness (relative quickness for 345 pounds) and he makes the tackle across the field.

Third play ... rushes into the hole vacated by the pulling guard, looks like he tries to fight through the center then spins around to try and make the play behind him.

Fourth play ... double teamed, spins out of it and makes the tackle.

Fifth play ... engaged by left guard and pushes the kid back maybe 4 to 5 yards almost to Landry Jones.

Sixth play double teamed on a run up the middle ... gives no ground and splits the double team where he dives into the backfield to try and swipe at the running backs feet.

Seventh play ... double teamed again - spins out of it and chases Landry Jones out of bounds - holds him to about a no gain, but the linebacker comes off murray and at the last second Jones flips it to Murray for a 7 yard gain.

8th play ... run up the middle, hit by the center and right guard on a double team .. still clogs up the hole and I *think* makes the tackle.

9th play ... beats the left guard and makes the tackle for a 2 yard gain? Maybe 1 yd gain.

10th play looks like he gets a hand on jones, Jones stepped up into the pocket and threw it away when nothing was open.

11th play .. gets engaged, sheds the block, reaches across and still makes the tackle.

12th - beats his man one on one ... almost kills jones who just throws it away into the dirt.

It goes on .. I just wanted to get to the one where he knocks Landry on his behind. I wouldn't mind seeing a 345 pound man landing on the likes of Roethlisberger, Flacco, and Dalton? (or whoever) this next year. Preferably with the ball still in hand.



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thanks for the vid post. this is the second one i've seen is the mini game format. I love that in both he seems to get better as the game goes on. Or he is wearing his oppenents down. either way looks good.


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Thanks for the breakdown...

Also you have to consider what Heckert said when talking about him....he said he was on the field on EVERY snap, 70-80 plays, no way any player at the LOS, esp. a heavy DT can dominate on all of those plays...Auburn rotated and Fairley was reportedly in 20-30 fewer snaps per game...he was fresher. Taylor never will be asked to play that many snaps in the NFL...fewer plays to begin with and more rotation I guess. I'm sure Heckert had Taylor rated over Fairley or at least close enough...I'm very happy with Taylor-Sheard from a value AND player standpoint...good players and great value at premium positions....not sold on Little yet but he def has talent...2nd day was pretty good all around...we have a pretty good shot to come out with 4-5 starter out of this draft and if 2 of those develop into above AVG or better it's a great draft...and we still have ATL's 1st and 4th for 2012


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DJ, you might want to sit down if you are standing holding your phone or something.

I completely agree with everything in your last post


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The fact that Django likes this guy is not lost on me. Similarly, I'm not calling all the draft gurus stupid because they had this guy rated high, or the Ravens' staff poor evaluators of Dline talent since they were supposedly going to snatch this guy up. Just saying that, in my inexperienced football eyes, I don't see the hype.

The part about him playing tons of snaps is a good point. Anyone is going to tire out. One thing I DO see is that he can move for a big man. When he contained that RB all the way to the sideline was very impressive. When he comes back and makes a tackle on the other side of the field is also very impressive.

Oh well. We'll see. I'm looking forward to see how he does. A DT taken that high should have an immediate impact, right? I guess we'll find out soon.


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That's cool. I definitely respect what you have to say. I suppose I try to look for the good things that any pick can ever bring to the table. Yes, some (or actually most) will have some major flaws to their game. That happens for every team and hopefully a good staff can coach that out of them once this becomes their job and they spend 100% of their time on it as compared to the NCAA mandated 20 hours or less per week ...

Overall, he's a big man with some concerns, but if he (and rubin) can anchor the dline, then we will be able to add some flash and more sexy picks of pass rushers and thumpers of linebackers soon. Can't see those type of players light it up without the big boys up front however.


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Graff,
Quote:

but I do think he'll be a good player for us at 43DT




I never saw Baylor play did you? I can't assume he will be good. I wanted Hayward but if Taylor is 'good' then we may be OK...

Did anyone see him play?

The film shows a good rush but not dominating and he is alert to the runner and makes tackles. I saw Hayward for 4 years and he is better ...but maybe Taylor had better games.

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I watched 4 Baylor games from this past year and every game of Heyward's career. From what I've seen (not too much), I would take Taylor every day of the week. I hate Heyward in a 4-3, especially at defensive tackle.

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Teams wanted no part of Taylor. They schemed around him because he was pretty much all Baylor had. I wish there was an actual highlight reel of Taylor so everyone could see how dominate this kid was. He gets his paws on someone he doesnt tackle them, he throws them backwards and uses his 350lb body and all of his power to bury them.

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yea.. we got a beast.

Really hope Benard is put at DE too b/c I think he's a pretty good pass rusher.

DE Sheard
DT Rubin
DT Taylor
DE Benard

I likes that.. Sheard and Benard..

Hope Sheard pans out and is a force against the run too..


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I really think we are at the point where from now for the forseable future, we continue to invest heavily in both of our lines. We still have the need to spend a day 1 or day 2 pick on an OLineman probably every draft for the next 2 or 3 years at least ... but then any top flight defensive linemen in the future help the picks of Sheard and Taylor look even better.

Can you imagine our line of Sheard, Rubin, Taylor and Bernard with talent like (just hypothetically) Worthy from Michigan State or Coples from North Carolina rotating in? How about someone else like Jared Crick? I don't everyone in this upcoming class yet (thank goodness we still have 11 months before the draft ) but adding in a defensive line stud with a pick as early as our 2nd rounder could pay major dividends ...

We keep all of our players fresh throughout games and throughout the season, plus it's insurance for any major injuries.


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It was Andy Reid and Heckert's M.O. to take many offensive and defensive linemen in every draft in Philly.

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Well that does make me happy ... We need to finish the Right Tackle slot for the long term... my hope is in 2012 we spend a high pick if it isn't manned down this year.

By the 2013 draft we will need to see if Lauvao or Pinkston has become a starting guard or not, and if not we will need to draft for either a rotating door at right guard OR a 33 year old (in 2013) Steinbach ...

And as terrible as it is, by 2014 Joe Thomas is going to be 30 at the end of the season. He will still have a lot of football left in him (I hope) at that time, but when the O and D lines are just under 50% of the starting 22, we really can't play around with the patchwork games and expect to win. I just think we are so close to having a solid line, that we can't neglect it if we get it up to par.


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