x

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#783228 - 04/28/13 12:57 PM Thinking It Through... Big Picture
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I think most on here know I don't give credit where credit is not due. And I'm not sold one way or the other on this draft. How our first two picks actually produce will go a long way in determining the outcome of this draft and we won't know that until they have played some ball.

It's easy for some to knock this draft and to an extent I do understand their concerns. I didn't come in here during this draft on some sort of spur of the moment emotional explosion although I did get a lot of smiles reading some of them.



Instead, I sat back and tried to make some sense out of the moves that were made and try to see the rationale behind it. After a while, I did make a lot of sense out of it. I'm not saying I'm 100% behind it, but I did find some logic.

Firstly, we are installing a brand new O. Secondly, a brand new D. Our coaching staff on both sides of the ball have their hands full just trying to get current players on our roster and the NFL vets who were signed, to learn and deploy brand new systems. Wouldn't adding more than a handful of rookies complicate this process even further? To me, it's quite logical that if you can gain value and stockpile picks for next year, we will have veterans in place by that time to help bring these rookies along in the new system.

As of now, we would be bringing in rookies that would have no real guidance from veterans to help adjust them into the system since our current roster is learning that system themselves. I believe with our current roster having a years experience themselves, next year would be far better timing to bring an infusion of rookie talent.

QB anyone? I know people are on both sides of the fence in regards to Weeden, but no matter which side you are on, last year certainly didn't show us enough development from him to say with any certainty that he will be the answer here. Stockpiling picks would only give us more ammunition to put ourselves in a position to move up for a QB should that need be there.

Even if that isn't the case, this year will point out who on our current roster does and does not fit the new schemes on both sides of the ball. If it is found that we have extreme needs anywhere, we have the ammo to move up to address those needs with higher caliber picks.

So whether one agrees with the strategy used in this draft or not, there is some logic here that causes it to make more sense than I've seen many suggest there is. How it will play out is anyone's guess. It's far too early in the process to say. But I don't think people should suggest that none of it makes any sense.

JMHO
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783229 - 04/28/13 02:45 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Browns_Lonewolf Offline

Practice Squad

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 149
I agree Pit,

I equate our front office moves to my taking over one of the departments, I supervise, back in 2009. When I was brought in and put in charge, it was the first time someone with any "real" knowedge of the department (and how to run it) was put in charge. Every previous supervisor had little or no knowledge whatsoever and were subsequently removed (Think Shurmur here with the Browns). I came in and took my time evaluating each of the staff to determine what I had, what they knew, and determined that the only thing lacking was proper supervision and bringing the current staff up to date on thier eduaction with regard to thier individual responsibilities. I didn't have to scrap the whole department, just a couple of people that pulled the whole department down. I see Chud, Horton, and Norv doing this same thing in OTA's, which is why they feel the pieces in place need to be educated, in the new systems, and re-evaluated after they have the opportunity to prove themselves.

So I feel the new front office is not absolutely sure the previous leadership used thier personnel to thier fullest potential and want to use this year to get a solid evaluation of the talent as it is used in "This" system. They can then focus on scouting for the pieces thay know need do not fit at this time for next years draft class.

This is not only smart utilization of player personnel but sound fiscal conservacy as well. Only time will tell though.

JMO though.
_________________________
Hears to hoping Dorsey is the Browns Ozzie Newsome.

Top
#783230 - 04/28/13 02:52 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Browns_Lonewolf]
MrKelso Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Grove City, OH
Yeah trading for the extra picks in next years draft was smart in case they have to clean house after this season to bring in some system players. If Weeden stinks we'll have extra picks to move around in next year's draft to ensure we get the QB we want. It was frustrating watching other teams, such as the Bengals and Ravens have great drafts, where as we did very little to improve our team this season.
_________________________

"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"

Top
#783231 - 04/28/13 03:01 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
jfanent Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 14531
Loc: Oregon, Ohio
Well, it looks like they had a plan and stuck with it. Everyone seems to be on the same page, not like the last two years where it seemed like Heckert was making effective decisions and the Walrus was meddling. I'm not thrilled with picks 3 and 6, but I'm quite OK with the pick trades, swapping for Bess and the 7th round gambles. We actually did what they said we'd do, and you can't ask for more than that. I was deathly afraid that Lombardi and Banner would try and make some sort of splash by taking huge risks, and thankfully that didn't happen. They simply stuck to the plan they laid out.
_________________________
"...we are 12-4 next year, mark it down" jfanent 12/12/18

#GMSTRONG

Top
#783232 - 04/28/13 03:01 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
nordawg Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 2316
Loc: norwalk, ohio
Pitt have you been hacked?
_________________________
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

#gmstrong

Top
#783233 - 04/28/13 03:29 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
After years of us not picking the guys I wanted...I think on 3 occasions I got my wish.
Gregg Pruitt
Leroy Hoard
Joe Thomas

I've decided to take a step back n get off the guys I fell in love with...of course realizing most came off the same report passed around to all the different draft sites. Maybe some would change the wording to sound authentic lol

But I have always tried to figure out - WHY the FO would take who they would.

That is why in this draft at #6 I wanted us to get that Edge Rusher to build the D around. Didn't think we would be 3 deep by 6 especially with all 3 Left tackles gone n Millner as well as Floyd on the board. Who knew both would drop.

So we got my #3 Mingo...maybe our guys had him as #1??? Who knows. Point is how can I be disappointed when I thought the best plan was to get the Edge Rusher...whoever we got we wouldn't get close to a better prospect down the road.

Cause the player wasn't my choice (but really we had no choice due to my 1 n 2 were gone) the concept is a Good one.

McFadden - 3rd round he the best value after all those OL went were DBs they went often in the 2nd round. Didn't know McFadden pre draft but we tend not to know West Coast as well as SEC n other divisions. I really like what I see n he has good cover skills which is much harder to learn than run stopping.

We all had CB on our list to get n we got a good cover kid. Same size as Sheldon n has legs still on him.

Slot WR....we got two good starters...I was not pleased w/Benjamin n hoping Cribbs would stay for the slot. Bess is solid slot guy.

We knew we weren't going to get all the PIECES this year. I know FA was a 2 year set up. Maybe draft also? But actually draft is a continual rotation of talent thing. But we had the foundation of 27 drafted players on our roster. We will have over 30 this year n who knows after next year.

I think its good not to OVER HAUL the entire roster. We got rid of the older FAs mostly n have kept the youth.

Nothing is PERFECT which includes our FO n the moves they made. But there is a plan in place. So far so good...now to take this PAPER stuff n put in on the FIELD!
JMHO
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

Top
#783234 - 04/28/13 07:08 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Versatile Dog Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 42995
Pit, is that you? Really?

Good post. Fair post.

And since you were fair, I will try and throw in some criticism of the picks.

I really wanted Milliner over Mingo. I know that an edge rusher was our #1 priority going into this season, but we signed Kruger and have Sheard for the other side. I think Milliner is a better player than Mingo. I thought he would fill a bigger need.

With that said, I believe that Banner's philosophy is that you pick the best player in regards to long-term commitment. I understand that. I agree w/that. I just don't think Mingo is better than Milliner.

I like our 3rd round pick. I know he is short. But, his hips are very fluid. His footwork is great. He has great hands. I like that pick, but understand why people may be wary.

I really like trading the 4th and 5th round picks for higher picks next year. I still can't believe that so many people are complaining about that one. I love how that little SOG Banner really tried to shove one up the Squeelers butts.


I kinda like the gamble of taking Slaughter in the 6th. I would rather take a guy like that in the 6th, than just some guy who really doesn't have that much talent. If he doesn't come back from the injury.....oh well. If he does, it's a steal. Last year, my favorite pick in the draft was Winn, and he was a 6th rounder, too. Never understood why he slipped so far.

Not so sure about taking a guy who sold pot. I know nothing about him in regards to performance. Some say he is very good. Steve guy pimped him earlier. But, is there a chance he'll be in jail?

The other guy. I have no idea.

All in all, I can't say I am overly thrilled w/the players. But, I do like that Banner seemed to have a very detailed plan. One cat was saying we weren't prepared and that is why we made the trades. LMAO. No one is unprepared anymore and furthermore, I think Banner is one of those guys w/short man syndrome and he has been outsmarting people his entire life. He loves sticking it to the big boys.

Let me tell you something, bro........I know you aren't thrilled w/Banner right now, but I think he is the kinda guy that you will end up loving. He is a pit bull, just like you and me. This little sucker is going to be tenacious as hell. He doesn't care if people rip him early. He even said they would, but that if you win, the fans will come around. I think this guy has a plan. And Pit, if you have a plan and you stick w/it........it's going to work. Junior is gone. The years perpetual blow-ups are over.

I'm getting carried away. Draft grade? I don't know. The players don't excite me all that much, but I do see the plan, for once. And that gives me hope!
_________________________
#GotRealPlayers

Top
#783235 - 04/28/13 07:22 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
Heldawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 3728
Loc: Kailua, HI
Draft grade articles make me chuckle. Everyone knows that when we have 6 picks in the first four rounds we're going to get a high draft grade right?

I mean look at Minnesota...they had three first round draft picks! Oh and they don't have Percy Harvin or their second rounder, or their third rounder, or their fourth rounder or a seventh rounder.

I mean Floyd was probably good value at that point even though I'm not a big fan. I like Rhodes. And Patterson seems like a knuckle.

But three first round picks?!? = A+++
_________________________

Top
#783236 - 04/28/13 07:23 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
WSU Willie Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 5171
j/c

In reading through the board today after being away during the draft, an odd thought came to mind.

The extra picks we got for 2014 will certainly help positioning for getting a guy we want in next year's draft and...

Could make for some "wiggle-room" in going after this year's Josh-Gordon-type in the 2013 Supplemental Draft.

Not saying we are planning for that...just that we have some good draft spots to use if we want a guy in the 2013 Supplemental Draft.
_________________________
My New Year's resolution...forget the past...except for the spot in the Raider's game...the inexplicable decision to not give Baker ANY 1st team reps in camp...and not playing Chubb until it was forced upon them. I'm sure I'll let more slip in here tho.

Top
#783237 - 04/28/13 07:30 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
Homewood Dog Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 03/16/13
Posts: 2099
I agree with you Vers except on one point. I think Mingo will be a very good player and Milliner is an injury risk. Those five surgeries that I read about had me worried. Originally he was my first choice.

Top
#783238 - 04/28/13 07:59 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
Loki Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 1744
To be honest so far I love Banner. Look at what's he's done:
1) Not signed anyone over 30 basically
2) No one had any clue what the Browns were doing on draft night
3) Seemed to have trades ready to go with every position ( Rumored the trade was if Mingo wasn't there Rams 1st and 2nd for the Browns spot)
4) Traded picks for a draft that is stronger next year
5) Said the only trades he makes are winning ones and ones that weaken the other team.


I really like Banner. At this point this the best Coaching Staff and Front office we've had since Bill Belicheck.My only worry is that Haslam is going to sent to jail and the Browns will have a new owner in a year or two who will clean house.
_________________________
Go Browns!!

Top
#783239 - 04/28/13 08:45 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Quote:

Pit, is that you? Really?

Good post. Fair post.




Yeah, it's me! LOL

And I wasn't actually saying that I agreed with the way they went about things especially, but saying that I did understand the logic behind it. Some seemed to indicate they were not prepared and had no clue what they were doing. Looking at it big picture, I feel my initial post shows the logic behind their moves at least to some extent.

Quote:

I really wanted Milliner over Mingo. I know that an edge rusher was our #1 priority going into this season, but we signed Kruger and have Sheard for the other side. I think Milliner is a better player than Mingo. I thought he would fill a bigger need.




I very much agree with you there! I believe Millner is more NFL ready. I feel he is a much more fundamentally sound player and is an every down player which was more deserving of a top 10 pick. I think there are more questions concerning fundamentals as it pertains to Mingo and I hope he lives up to the billing.

Quote:

With that said, I believe that Banner's philosophy is that you pick the best player in regards to long-term commitment. I understand that. I agree w/that. I just don't think Mingo is better than Milliner.




Agreed.

Quote:

I like our 3rd round pick. I know he is short. But, his hips are very fluid. His footwork is great. He has great hands. I like that pick, but understand why people may be wary.




There are questions around him being a complete CB, but once you get to the third round, most everyone has some questions. If they didn't, they wouldn't still be there in round 3. So I have a wait and see attitude regarding McFadden.

Quote:

I really like trading the 4th and 5th round picks for higher picks next year. I still can't believe that so many people are complaining about that one. I love how that little SOG Banner really tried to shove one up the Squeelers butts.





As I stated above, I think it was sound strategy. As of now I would say there are what this FO and coaching staff consider question marks surrounding how some of our players transition into the new schemes. As such, this gives us higher draft picks next year and the ability to trade up if need be, to address positions that we may end up needing, yet they are not now sure about.

I think people have been overly optimistic in regards to how seamless these transitions will go. More so on D. Just because a player has certain raw skills overall, does not mean they will transition smoothly to a new scheme. They now have additional ammo next year to address this situation as it arises IMO.

Quote:

I kinda like the gamble of taking Slaughter in the 6th. I would rather take a guy like that in the 6th, than just some guy who really doesn't have that much talent. If he doesn't come back from the injury.....oh well. If he does, it's a steal. Last year, my favorite pick in the draft was Winn, and he was a 6th rounder, too. Never understood why he slipped so far.




I probably favor this pick more than the others. In the sixth round, often your picks never even make the roster. In this case, we know the talent is there to be a major contributor if he can regain his health and stay healthy. It's hard to get that quality of athlete in this position of the draft.

Quote:

Not so sure about taking a guy who sold pot. I know nothing about him in regards to performance. Some say he is very good. Steve guy pimped him earlier. But, is there a chance he'll be in jail?




As long as he doesn't sell any to Josh Gordon we'll be okay.



At this stage it's all a gamble. I don't really try to nit pick seventh round picks that much. I mean they're one step away from being UDFA's. There are far more misses than hits at this juncture in the draft.

Quote:

The other guy. I have no idea.




That makes two of us.

Quote:

I think this guy has a plan. And Pit, if you have a plan and you stick w/it........it's going to work. Junior is gone. The years perpetual blow-ups are over.




Here I'm not so sure we agree. I'm not saying they don't have a plan. I'm not saying they won't stick to it. I believe that remains to be seen. What I do disagree with? Not everyone that has a plan and sticks to it succeeds. If the plan itself is flawed or not executed properly, the plan fails. So I believe the jury on that part remains to be seen.

Quote:

I'm getting carried away. Draft grade? I don't know. The players don't excite me all that much, but I do see the plan, for once. And that gives me hope!




I see the logic in what they did in this draft, but not so much a plan per say. Unless that plan was to make every "major investment" in your front seven. If that is the plan, they're doing a good job of it.



I do believe they have made upgrades in many areas without having to spend a lot and I like that. But after the Mingo pick, I still see them as putting all of their eggs in one basket. And I do believe Mingo is pretty raw for a #6 overall pick in a draft. But only time will tell in regards to that.

JMHO
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783240 - 04/29/13 03:53 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
DjangoBrown Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 5761
Been away over the weekend and catching up to everything that went down on day 3 and I know you guys can't wait to read my take

I gotta give it to the "consensus". My confidence in them grew a ton this weekend. Not because I particularly loved the draft, the prospects etc. I will get into that in the specific threads for a detailed evaluation, but because they kept avoiding doing dumb stuff I absolutely expected them to do. I know this might sound like a backhanded compliment, but it's not meant that way. I expected them to do something stupid with the QB position, screwing Weeden prematurely. Well, they did not, they did a smart move by adding veteran help and give Weeden another season to take it or fail.
I expected them then to trade away one of our cornerstone players, especially after the Mingo selection. Again, they didn't do it. They also didn't sign a bad FA or pick any prospects I hated/thought were overvalued

Again, this all sounds like a backhander, but avoiding dumb stuff was BIG for me to trust this setup and they've accomplished that and I'll happily eat crow for that, as this is good news for the Browns long term. I thought pre-draft that Banner and Lombo are ego-tripping, trying hard to add their stamp on the team above everything else. Well, they've avoided that too. I will go as far as saying that especially Lombo has (or had to) eat his ego, as he HATED on the 2012 draft, yet they will start 4 guys on Offense from that draft. Hats off for that. Here's a Banner-quote I loved with regards to that:

"I think it will be clear that the team is continuing to improve as I think it has for the last year or two and positioning itself well to have a chance to become very good and sustain it."

Pretty much applauding the building job Heckert and the former coaches have accomplsihed and their consensus actions speak volumes about that too. Also, unlike most posters, he didn't connect development to the W-L record alone. We developed the past 2 season without improving our win total and he saw that (probably hinting that coaching was the bigger problem). He also was talking about adding talent and improving in a 2-3 year window, not 5 year re-building, which I thought they had on their minds yet again. Banner absolutely gets it when he said:

"I think the difference is on offense we think we have a lot of young guys who are not quite sure what they are going to be over time. So we were inclined to give them some time and see how they develop and then we'll be able to identify where we're at."

That's what I was saying with regards to eating their egos for the sake of the Browns and I couldn't be happier about that. Unlike most of the posters on here, he doesn't "evaluate" players in terms of regime agendas and who added the players. He's ALL about making this team better, no matter who contributed....that's HUGE folks

Adding to that, now to the REAL positive stuff to take away from this draft weekend. I read over the post-draft pressers and there he was, Joe Banner talking about "value" constantly, when discussing the Mingo pick, the trades etc. I might not agree with every single one of them, but to think in terms of value was a big positive for me and is the right approach. This consensus thing is closer to Heckert than most thought, me included. We will have to wait and see if they have the same eye for talent, but the approach is very similar and I like it. They're pretty much CONTINUING what Heckert STARTED and I couldn't be happier about that. This was a huge draft to evaluate our evaluators and while I'm not sold yet on the "content" (prospects, trades etc), I like the "form" (open-mindedness, realistic evaluation of our roster, eating pride), which bodes well for the future

I'll happily DOUBLE my confidence in the "conensus"
_________________________
#gmstrong

"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer

Top
#783241 - 04/29/13 05:28 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: DjangoBrown]
Ballpeen Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 27693
When I read Banners words in the transcript of the PC, I wondered how any of the people down on Banner for being simply a "bean counter" couldn't come away with a refreshed opinion. It was one of the best, well thought out talks I have ever heard from a person in a front office. It's clear they get it.

So, my confidence-o-meter in you just doubled

As for your worry about Haslam selling. I doubt that happens, and if it does, that won't be for a few years. By then the team will either be running on 8 cylinders, or puttering along.

A new owner isn't going to change much if everything is peachy. Plus, the new owner would probably become his wife, or son.
_________________________
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong





Top
#783242 - 04/29/13 05:37 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: DjangoBrown]
kwhip Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 1758
My "Like-O-Meter" for you just went from 10% to 60%.

I'm impressed that you stashed that EGO of yours and actually looked at this for what it really is.

2 for you big boy.

Top
#783243 - 04/29/13 05:50 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
kwhip Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 1758
Quote:

. As of now I would say there are what this FO and coaching staff consider question marks surrounding how some of our players transition into the new schemes. As such, this gives us higher draft picks next year and the ability to trade up if need be, to address positions that we may end up needing, yet they are not now sure about.

I think people have been overly optimistic in regards to how seamless these transitions will go. More so on D. Just because a player has certain raw skills overall, does not mean they will transition smoothly to a new scheme. They now have additional ammo next year to address this situation as it arises IMO.




BINGO. Now you're getting it. lol.

The pundits are hammering us for letting 4th and 5th round picks go by the wayside. At first I was like "WTH is going on?". Then came the compensation and I thought to myself. "Self, these were OUTSTANDING moves". SHREWD. It's rare to see that happen. But I LOVE it.

I'm going on record right now.

There's a reason we made those trades and haven't blown all our Cap Space. You alluded to it. We're going to monitor this team this year to determine what we REALLY need to address going forward. And in the 2014 off season and draft we will hit FA even harder and utilize those 2 3rd's and 2 4th's to move around in next years draft and GET OUR TARGETED PLAYERS. May or may not be a QB. But by the time we are done with the 2014 off season, this football team will be spoken of by the pundits as "THE TEAM TO BEAT IN THE AFC NORTH".

Watch how this transpires.

Vers. I concur about Banner. He's shrewd. He knows what he's doing. And he doesn't give a rats ass what ANYONE thinks about it. Indicated right off the bat by bringing in Lombardi. That was a BALZZY move.

Top
#783244 - 04/29/13 07:26 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Damanshot Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 37695
Loc: Aurora, Ohio
That makes a ton of sense Pit..
_________________________
#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot

Top
#783245 - 04/29/13 08:58 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: DjangoBrown]
bigf00t Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 12/10/06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Central Minnesota
I think that post is right on. Sometimes i read your posts-sometimes i don't (i just get tired of the negativity)- Today i am glad that i did, it sounded positive and hopeful.

Top
#783246 - 04/29/13 09:43 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Attack Dawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 6160
Loc: C-Bus
Instead, I sat back and tried to make some sense out of the moves that were made and try to see the rationale behind it. After a while, I did make a lot of sense out of it. I'm not saying I'm 100% behind it, but I did find some logic.



Actually I had to do the same..I thought the Cavs and Chris Grant took over our draft..stockpiling future picks..
But it is logical. They get more ammo next year in a skill heavy draft..thats what Banner meant by looking to be productive in the future.
Plus they want to give some of the players they have a chance to show what they are.


QB anyone? I know people are on both sides of the fence in regards to Weeden, but no matter which side you are on, last year certainly didn't show us enough development from him to say with any certainty that he will be the answer here. Stockpiling picks would only give us more ammunition to put ourselves in a position to move up for a QB should that need be there.


Yes they want to see BW in a offense suited to him..not that crap that was running last year.
So we'll see ..although I don't like handing players to a division rival who is known for drafting good for a long time.

Top
#783247 - 04/29/13 10:11 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Ballpeen]
Attack Dawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 6160
Loc: C-Bus
Quote:

When I read Banners words in the transcript of the PC, I wondered how any of the people down on Banner for being simply a "bean counter" couldn't come away with a refreshed opinion. It was one of the best, well thought out talks I have ever heard from a person in a front office. It's clear they get it.

So, my confidence-o-meter in you just doubled

As for your worry about Haslam selling. I doubt that happens, and if it does, that won't be for a few years. By then the team will either be running on 8 cylinders, or puttering along.

A new owner isn't going to change much if everything is peachy. Plus, the new owner would probably become his wife, or son.




I had to listen to it ..I wanted to hear their explanation of their plan.I wanted that fourth used on a safety but if the guys they had on their board were not there and the players available don't fit, you don't force a pick.

I give Banner props for answering questions I thought he might dodge but he was straightforward and told the reporters the reasoning behind the moves..now they aren't saying everything , but thats expected.
Tell U what..the trade with Pukesburgh will be known after the 2014 draft..

Top
#783248 - 04/29/13 10:38 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Attack Dawg]
rastanplan Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 1913
I keep on reading that next draft is going to be so much better in the middle rounds, and people are very sure of that, while to me the talent level of drafts after the 2nd round are more or less the same.

Can someone give me an example of a Safety and a Full Back, for example, that will be available next year in the middle rounds, and why are they so much better then this years players?

A link of a credible source stating that next year middle rounds are going to be packed with good players would also be excellent.

Top
#783249 - 04/29/13 10:41 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

This draft will be measured more by what we did not do. Not so much by what was done.

Over the next few years first and foremost: how did this years quarterback class pan out?

The Browns passed on all of them. Especially the guys available in the fourth round. If one of those quarterbacks become a franchise guy; then they failed.

If the player taken by the Steelers (S. Thomas) and the guy the Colts took ( M. Hughes) become ballers then we will have to see what happens with the Browns selections in 2014 third and fourth round.

===========================================================

From my point of view missing on the sixth pick in the first round is inexcusable.

Mingo needs to make it big. Milliner in my opinion was the better pick. First, he is not learning a new position. Second, he was the top player at his position and he fit a required need.

Nothing against Mingo unless he bombs.
========================================================

Leverage - the trade outs in the fourth and fifth are only as good as what is done with them.

If Weeden fails this year and those picks help to secure a future great quarterback then the insurance provided in gaining higher picks next year was a wise move.

If those picks are used straight up and they secure better players than what the two picks this year become then again a wise move.

I never grade drafts until the players prove what they can do.

The players I wanted in this draft: Dion Jordan, Dee Milliner, Tyler Wilson. I was also in favor of taking a flyer on on Gino Smith in a trade down.

Time will tell.

Top
#783250 - 04/29/13 11:00 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
Arps Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 3644
J/C
Quote:

Thinking It Through... Big Picture




There is no place on this forum for this kind of talk. Try remaking a thread and calling it "knee jerk reactions...and over the top responses"

Top
#783251 - 04/29/13 11:02 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Arps]
no_logo_required Offline

Legend

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 17850
j/c

One: I understand the reason to not go too heavy-in FA though I would have certainly attempted to find more DB depth there.

Two: I understand the reason to bank higher picks in a better draft (2014) rather than just accept the lower picks in a weaker draft. I also really liked both high picks (Mingo and McFadden).

One + Two: I think this is the hard part. When you put them together, you end up with a team that has averaged less than 5 wins a season over the past 4, sitting on a ton of cap room, and only adding in 2 prospective starters through the draft. It is tough to see teams like SF add more in the FA/trade and also in the draft while sitting on a team that just went to the Supwerbowl.

I completely understand the strategy behind the method, but am still incredibly disappointed in the end result. I think we could have been more aggressive on a few veterans on short contracts (for one). Any success in 2013 now is based solely on the growth of the current talent and the shift in coaching.

Our defense should be fine if our DBs step up (Horton's specialty). Our weakest positions on offense are QB and TE (Norv's specialty). So, it is possible to still have a successful year (especially with all of the young players maturing). But, it feels like we made it more difficult than it needed to be.
_________________________
#gmstrong

Top
#783252 - 04/29/13 11:04 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: DjangoBrown]
ClayM57 Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 5950
Loc: Wauseon, Ohio, Northwest corne...
Agree..What I appriciated was that we didnt sell our future for pennies today.

When I started hearing the statements of "Put our stamp" "Make a huge Splash" I was afraid they were going to do something stupied like trade next years 1st for a 2nd this year to grab a average Corner or guard, or trade next years picks for 2nd round talent this year which becomes 4th round talent next year with a stronger draft predicted next year but who knows, We didnt trade off good talent for low draft picks or project players / media hopefuls this year.

There still is alot to watch for but the new FO passed the Draft Test,

To me...Face it, We were not in a good position do make a slam dunk this year, the strengh of the draft is pretty much our team strengh and we didnt have a 2nd so our options were very limited, when this happens you see team panic and do alot of stupied things, or sit tight and let it all pass, which we did, thank-god.

but as always we still have alot of off season left, things could change overnight...

Top
#783253 - 04/29/13 11:04 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I'm not really sure that you can say, "If one of those QB's in the fourth round pans out, they failed".

Nobody drafts a QB in the fourth round with a high percentage of anticipation that he's franchise QB material. If teams really believed any QB in the draft was the long term QB for their franchise, they wouldn't wait until the fourth round to select him.

I feel when and if they need to make a move for a QB, it will be a guy with very high first round potential. Not a flyer on a mid[round pick. If their intention was to do that, I felt we would have seen them do that in this draft.

While many posters here pass judgment on Weeden according to his rookie performance, it appears this FO either didn't see a franchise QB in this draft or truly see Weeden was a square peg being forced into a round hole through trying to put him in the WCO.

I didn't see a franchise QB in this draft either. All seemed high risk investments to me. So if you're going to put that out there, maybe you can tell us who your answer would have been in this draft? Which QB do you feel they missed on?
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783254 - 04/29/13 11:57 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

I thought I did put out there who I thought they missed on:

"The players I wanted in this draft: Dion Jordan ( no shot at him), Dee Milliner, Tyler Wilson. I was also in favor of taking a flyer on on Gino Smith in a trade down."

===========================================================

Kaepernick and Russell Wilson were identified by their organizations as good prospects. They proved themselves when given the opportunity.

You do not have to draft in the top five of the first round to find a quarterback. You have to have an eye for talent. You have to able to project how a player will perform in your system. Just because others pass on a guy does not mean ability is lacking.

Weeden was ranked as one of the worst quarterbacks last year after being handed the position at 29 years old.

Time will tell if Weeden pans out but I would not put all my eggs in the Weeden basket given his age and past performance.

If one of this years quarterbacks prove to be better than Weeden then in my opinion, yes, they failed. They failed to upgrade a position of need.

Top
#783255 - 04/29/13 12:23 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
no_logo_required Offline

Legend

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 17850
Quote:

Time will tell if Weeden pans out but I would not put all my eggs in the Weeden basket given his age and past performance.

If one of this years quarterbacks prove to be better than Weeden then in my opinion, yes, they failed. They failed to upgrade a position of need.




I would give them a bit longer leash than that though. If Weeden fails to drastically improve AND they fail to draft a good starting QB in the 2014 draft, then they failed.

Next year's QB-class is much better (and other positions as well), so I have a tough time saying that they should've taken a big gamble on a Barkley, T.Wilson, or Bray rather than just sitting tight and taking a more viable option next year.
_________________________
#gmstrong

Top
#783256 - 04/29/13 04:53 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Quote:


I thought I did put out there who I thought they missed on:

"The players I wanted in this draft: Dion Jordan ( no shot at him), Dee Milliner, Tyler Wilson. I was also in favor of taking a flyer on on Gino Smith in a trade down."




I actually liked Millner over Mingo myself. But time will tell on that one.

Quote:

Kaepernick and Russell Wilson were identified by their organizations as good prospects. They proved themselves when given the opportunity.




Yes they were. I'm not saying that there may not be a diamond in the rough somewhere that they missed on. But San Fran was doing very well with Smith and Seattle had just signed a FA they felt would actually end up being the starter. Wasn't it Flynn to a big FA deal?

In both cases, these teams were not in desperate need of a QB and had the luxury of taking a chance on someone.

My question to you is, how many NFL FO's bat 1000 on draft picks? Are you saying if they just so happened to overlook one diamond in the rough in the 4th round, they failed? If Tyler Wilson bombs, did you fail? At least 30 other GM's just so happened to agree with our FO on this. I guess they will all have failed in your opinion?

If that's your assertion here, every NFL FO fails in every draft. Because they always miss on some picks.

Quote:

Weeden was ranked as one of the worst quarterbacks last year after being handed the position at 29 years old.

Time will tell if Weeden pans out but I would not put all my eggs in the Weeden basket given his age and past performance.




I don't think this FO is putting all of its eggs in one basket. I simply don't feel they wished to take a gamble on the QB position with a draft pick that has just as many if not more questions surrounding them than Weeden has.

Quote:

If one of this years quarterbacks prove to be better than Weeden then in my opinion, yes, they failed. They failed to upgrade a position of need.




Are you going to be as hard on the other 30 teams FO's that passed on these same QB's at least three times? Because it seems a lot of team didn't think they were worth that investment either. Or will it just be our FO who missed the mark?

I think you're being very unrealistic here......
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783257 - 04/29/13 05:15 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
way to go n get the Koombaya sing along started. Puff the magic dragon...

Even DJango got into it ratsanplan still fighting. will answer your question Rastanplan after the draft next year

Good to see we got a plan in place. Excellent coaching staff n 27 + around 20 rookies (counting UDFA) all Browns based not knowing any other team. 47 into camp. We never had that before...

Just a happy place to be in finally a team getting past that Expansion stage n becoming competitive.

JMHO
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

Top
#783258 - 04/29/13 05:38 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: eotab]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I still say it's a re-build!

LOL
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783259 - 04/29/13 06:03 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: rastanplan]
Ballpeen Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 27693
Quote:

I keep on reading that next draft is going to be so much better in the middle rounds, and people are very sure of that, while to me the talent level of drafts after the 2nd round are more or less the same.

Can someone give me an example of a Safety and a Full Back, for example, that will be available next year in the middle rounds, and why are they so much better then this years players?

A link of a credible source stating that next year middle rounds are going to be packed with good players would also be excellent.





I don't know about the quality of the draft other than what I have read. This was by most accounts a poor draft other than line and pretty deep in decent corners.

As for links, you can find the info as easily as I so you can do a little research if you wish. I am not going to start searching around because you want me to....you do it, you can find it.


We drafted a safety from ND....a pretty good player just off injury. Evidently we checked him out and he passed whatever test the team has in such cases, so basically you are moaning about a worthless position like fullback.


Screw fullbacks. They are about as useful as a steering wheel on a mule. Basically it is a blocking position these days. If you want to waste one of you offensive weapons on a guy who blocks 95% of the time, put a real blocker back there.


Me, I would rather have 1 back and 4 guys who can move down field to make plays.


Phil Taylor would make a decent fullback. I'll bet you could give him the ball and he would gain the tough yard. I'll bet he could clear out a seam for the back.


Why waste a draft choice on a fullback when you have maybe 15 players already on the team who could play it?
_________________________
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong





Top
#783260 - 04/29/13 06:03 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
Quote:

I still say it's a re-build! LOL




Well don't you have to have something BUILT for it to be a Re-Build...

I win

lol
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

Top
#783261 - 04/29/13 06:06 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: eotab]
PrplPplEater Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 21693
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

I still say it's a re-build! LOL




Well don't you have to have something BUILT for it to be a Re-Build...

I win


lol




This is like a group of firefighters bragging that while your house completely burned down, they saved your basement.
_________________________
Fear us, for we have Hughlett

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.


Top
#783262 - 04/29/13 06:52 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Flynn was just signed as a FA. Seattle although just signing Flynn must have felt that it was still worth taking Russell in case Flynn didn't pan out. The result was that Flynn was not given the job like Weeden. Russell beat him out.

The Browns are not in a desperate position as well. They could have very easily taken a chance on any of the guys in the fourth round. None would have been pressed to start right away. That is the whole point.

The Eagles had Vick and Foles yet they recognized that getting Barkley was a value in the fourth round.

The Steelers took Jones in the fourth. Oakland just signed
Flynn and saw fit to take a chance on Wilson. Both were fourth rounders.

Nobody bats a 1000 in the draft that is not the point.

===========================================================

"I don't think this FO is putting all of its eggs in one basket. I simply don't feel they wished to take a gamble on the QB position with a draft pick that has just as many if not more questions surrounding them than Weeden has."

===========================================================

Weeden was a first round selection. A developmental quarterback at 29. Jason Campbell also a first rounder now 31 has been given multiple chances to win a starters job. He has yet been able to hold that position.

Hard to believe that none of the four guys taken in the fourth round were not worth the risk of a fourth round selection when you have Weeden and Campbell as your main guys.

Given who you have on the roster. Yes, they failed if any of those quarterbacks become better than Weeden and Campbell. Their job is to upgrade the talent on the team.

No matter how you feel about Weeden clearly he is a risk because of his performance.

========================================================

I can understand trading the fourth and fifth rounder for next years 3 and 4th rounders as insurance to have ammo to move up if Weeden totally bombs this year.

That may prove to be a good strategy. I am sure that was their thought process.

Nassib, Barkley, Jones, or Wilson were considered by most to be second, third or fourth round prospects. If one of them becomes great, then yes, they failed to recognize talent at the most important position on the field when they clearly have not solved that position on the team. No matter if Weeden succeeds or fails.

Top
#783263 - 04/29/13 08:35 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Browns_Lonewolf]
jacksondawg Offline

All Pro

Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 549
+1

Top
#783264 - 04/30/13 05:46 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Dean Offline

1st String

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Marion, Ohio
The proof is in the pudding. Anyone, any where, any way for any reason can grade this draft from A+ toF-. Based on past performance in college ball, combine scores, college talent showcase games, chicken bones or Ouija boards, any interpretation is possible.

I'll see,"I love this pick," to "WTF were they thinking?" from now until the 17th week of next season. Then and only then will ANYONE be fully qualified to grade this draft. Everything prior to that is egoist breast beating and puffed up feelings of grandeur and expertise by arm chair QB's.

The proof is in the pudding. Last years draft? WTF were they thinking with Weeden?

That said, I reserve judgement until January of 2014.

Thank you!
_________________________
Just one before I die, Cleveland.

Top
#783265 - 04/30/13 04:37 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Quote:

Nobody bats a 1000 in the draft that is not the point.




Quote:

Nassib, Barkley, Jones, or Wilson were considered by most to be second, third or fourth round prospects. If one of them becomes great, then yes, they failed to recognize talent at the most important position on the field when they clearly have not solved that position on the team. No matter if Weeden succeeds or fails.




Batting 1000 seems to be the only point you're trying to make here reading these two quotes.

You don't answer a gamble (Weeden), with another mid round gamble. You find an answer.

I guess you must feel somehow that teams find the answer to the franchise QB position in the mid rounds every time one just so happens to be selected there?

The odds are very low. Just look at the starters in this league and where they were selected and do the math on the averages there.

It just looks to me you want to hedge your bet to hang someone. Actually, it's obvious. So carry on........
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783266 - 05/01/13 10:20 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

Just want to make sure I understand.

If you are the decision maker in evaluating the talent in the draft are you not accountable for your decisions?

The Browns needed a safety. They traded with the Steelers. The Steelers selected a safety. If the guy becomes a solid player and the player the Browns take with that trade bombs is that acceptable to you? If Jarvis Jones proves to be way better than Mingo is that ok by you? What if Milliner becomes the next Revis and Mingo turns out like Vernon Gholston?

GM's are supposed to held accountable for the decisions they make. Holmgren blew the Griffin deal. Is not ok by me when you can not find a quarterback to lead your team.

There is difference in taking a shot at a guy in the mid rounds. Your exposure is not as great. You are not tying up big dollars. If you draft a QB say in the fourth and your starter Weeden does well are you hurt? If you develop a guy like Nassib or Landry Jones and at some point they seem ready or play well in a relief of injury you then have options. That is why teams like the Giants, Steelers, Eagles, and Oakland drafted those guys.

If Banners decision pays off and Weeden plays great or they parlay the traded picks into a trade for a quarterback that becomes a true franchise quarterback then he should be applauded.

If you come in and say "we will build the team through the draft". Then you need to be right with your decisions. The higher the pick the higher the percentage of accountability. You take a shot at a guy in the fourth round your odds are less than 50% chance of success but you may score big with much less risk. Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Brett Farve just to name a few turned out ok.

Top
#783267 - 05/01/13 10:34 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45608
Loc: YTown, Ohio
I want to reiterate:

You, and others, may think that the Browns need a Safety. Maybe the Browns, and Horton, are not so sure of that. Maybe they like what they have seen out of some of the young players we have in the secondary? Maybe they feel that those kids are better than what we would have found in the 4th/5th rounds? They took a flyer on a very talented, though injured, Safety in the 6th round. Couldn't it be possible that the team feels that the kids they have deserve a year in this defense to prove themselves?

This Browns team is different from most crap teams that bring in completely new front offices and coaching staffs. This team has a lot of young, and untested talent. There are some promising kids on this roster, but the coaches need to see what we have with them. Maybe the "experts" feel that FS was a dire need, but maybe the defensive coaches want to see what Gipson, Hagg, and maybe Basemosi can do before they go out and add more pieces to the puzzle? Isn't that possible? In fact, isn't that more likely than "The Browns just decided to abdicate their role in building the team this year, and have decided not to pick players just because they were not prepared, or didn't like anyone in this draft? Isn't it likely that they just didn't like players in this draft, in the 4th/5th rounds, more than the youngsters they already have, and who they already have to evaluate within their systems?
_________________________
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

Top
#783268 - 05/01/13 11:55 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

Of course their approach may be "let's see what we have."

Ultimately, you will have to answer for the decisions made good, bad or ugly.

Top
#783269 - 05/01/13 12:27 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45608
Loc: YTown, Ohio
I may look at this team differently than most fans, but I am fine with a new brain trust coming in and taking a measured approach to the team and its makeup.

I know that there is damn near no way that this team jumps from 4 straight years of sub par performance to Super Bowl contender. There almost certainly has to be a stepping stone season.

That said, I think this year could be that stepping stone. I like what they have done in free agency, In fact, I love a lot of what they have done. The rebuilt a 4-3 team into a 3-4 team. In one off-season. That's impressive. We might have the best LB corps in the AFCN right now. Yeah, that's a big statement, but looking at who we have ..... with Sheard, Kruger, Groves, Mingo, DQ, Robertson, Fort, Carder, and JMJ all at LB ....... I see depth that other teams might kill for. I look at our DL, with Bryant and Bryant, Taylor, Rubin, Winn, Hughes, and Kitchen. I love that depth all along the DL. I think that we're going to have a great front 7. This year. Plus, we'll get better as some of these younger players gain experience.

Man, there is a lot fo be excited about, especially on defense.

People are worried about the secondary .... but we dumped Sheldon Brown, and added Owens, and Barnes ... and McFadden. That's an upgrade to me, especially with an improved pass rush.

At Safety, I like the idea of developing kids like Gipson, and Bademosi, and Hagg. Again, with an improved pass rush, these guys will have reduced exposure, and a greater chance to succeed. We also added a nice player in Slaughter,although he does have to come back from a fairly serious injury.

This defense has a chance at becoming something special. It may not happen all this year, and yes, we might still have to replace a player here or there because they just don't become what we need them to become. However, we have the chance to see what they can become, and I like that.

On offense, we have a similar opportunity to see what we have in place. We added some interesting pieces, but still probably have some holes. However, we have some young players that we need to find out about. I am OK with taking this year to see what we have, within this offense and this defense. We can try to project players based on what they showed last year, but this is a totally new system. We have some players whose potentials really excite me. Not all will pan out, and some might fail spectacularly, but I would rather take this year and find out for sure what we have.
_________________________
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

Top
#783270 - 05/01/13 05:51 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Quote:


Just want to make sure I understand.

If you are the decision maker in evaluating the talent in the draft are you not accountable for your decisions?




Yes you are. Problem being, once again, NO FO bats 1000. Yet you keep claiming this FO should.

Quote:

The Browns needed a safety. They traded with the Steelers. The Steelers selected a safety. If the guy becomes a solid player and the player the Browns take with that trade bombs is that acceptable to you?




You do understand the difference in a SS and a FS, right? We needed a totally different S than the one they drafted. And yes, since his S position wasn't a position WE needed, I'll be fine with that.

Since we will get a higher pick where better talent should be available next year, we actually gained, not lost here.

Quote:

If Jarvis Jones proves to be way better than Mingo is that ok by you? What if Milliner becomes the next Revis and Mingo turns out like Vernon Gholston?




Now you have completely changed the subject. You spoke ONLY of the QB position. Now you're breaking down the other picks. Big difference.

I didn't agree with the Mingo pick. I think he's much to much of a project to select at #6. I would have preferred Millner but I'm in a wait and see mode. You were talking semantics about a QB who wasn't selected. As though they should have selected some second tier hope their questions surrounding them could somehow be overcome and they would need a crystal ball or a lot of luck to succeed there. If you wish to discuss the picks they did make, that's a separate issue.

Quote:

GM's are supposed to held accountable for the decisions they make. Holmgren blew the Griffin deal. Is not ok by me when you can not find a quarterback to lead your team.




Really? Let's be honest here, had Griffin been pinned in a WCO, would he have been as successful? The fact is, they drafted a QB who simply didn't fit the O they were running. Shanahan adjusted his system to suit RG3. He made the most out of his talents and built an O to take advantage of his talents which was a great deal of help in the success there.

In our case, we did not do that at all.

Quote:

There is difference in taking a shot at a guy in the mid rounds. Your exposure is not as great. You are not tying up big dollars. If you draft a QB say in the fourth and your starter Weeden does well are you hurt? If you develop a guy like Nassib or Landry Jones and at some point they seem ready or play well in a relief of injury you then have options. That is why teams like the Giants, Steelers, Eagles, and Oakland drafted those guys.




So you're saying that with our huge question mark at QB, drafting one of these guys is a better short term solution to the b-up QB position than signing a proven veteran in Campbell? They did address the QB position. Just not the way you like. I see us drafting a QB in a big way when they address it. Much like your first suggestion in the "RG3" way.

Which one do you prefer? A mid rounder with a lot of questions this year? Or a much better and more talented, higher rated QB prospect in round 1 possibly next year? You can't have it both ways.

Quote:

If Banners decision pays off and Weeden plays great or they parlay the traded picks into a trade for a quarterback that becomes a true franchise quarterback then he should be applauded.




Which I think is the plan.

Quote:

If you come in and say "we will build the team through the draft". Then you need to be right with your decisions. The higher the pick the higher the percentage of accountability. You take a shot at a guy in the fourth round your odds are less than 50% chance of success but you may score big with much less risk. Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Brett Farve just to name a few turned out ok.




And for the handful you mentioned, I could list probably hundreds who didn't. I don't like those odds. Maybe you should wait to see how right or wrong you are before you cast stones? Just an idea......
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783271 - 05/02/13 09:51 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Maybe you should wait to see how right or wrong you are before you cast stones? Just an idea......
=========================================================

"If Banners decision pays off and Weeden plays great or they parlay the traded picks into a trade for a quarterback that becomes a true franchise quarterback then he should be applauded."

========================================================

Look as stated there are many ways to approach the job. Just be right.

========================================================

Clearly they thought no quarterback in this draft was worthy. Time will tell.

======================================================

Kevin Kolb, Matt Cassel, Matt Shaub were later round picks that flashed when they stepped in because of injury. They were later traded as assets and brought high draft picks.

==========================================================

Which one do you prefer? A mid rounder with a lot of questions this year? Or a much better and more talented, higher rated QB prospect in round 1 possibly next year? You can't have it both ways.

======================================

Bear in mind the cost. when you miss on a fourth rounder there is not much pain. When you miss on a first rounder (Like Tim Couch, or even Weeden, first round does not come with a guarantee) it is not just financial. It costs you years.

=========================================================

Some Like Holmgren believe you should draft a developmental guy every year.
==========================================================

" Maybe you should wait to see how right or wrong you are before you cast stones?"

==========================================================

This is an open forum of opinion. Please spare me the lecture.

Top
#783272 - 05/02/13 10:19 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
Very good points made

I fear to make this a QB thread...gosh knows we need one

But to add to your points.
1. There was not a QB talent in this draft that was going to logically make an impact without getting a year or two of tutoring. Nothing of course is 100% sure I just don't see any Wilson types for the later rounds. He had a lot of perfections just his size dropped him...possibly Barkley is the only one I see that could step in win a spot or for injury n turn out a contributor for a team as a rookie.

2. So any pick we would have made pretty much would not serve as a contributor if Weeden fails. I think that status is there for Campbell.

3. Here is the kicker for me. Any of these late round picks developmental QBs would have who released? Lewis. It is possible that our guys, Chud n Norv liked what they see from Lewis better than any of these developmental QBs that were available. We are not flies on the wall to know...we can only PRESUME...ASSUME from the actions taken by our Coaches. For me...point blank its like they were telling us - Hey, we like Lewis as a Prospect far more than any of the developmental QBs out there.

JMHO
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

Top
#783273 - 05/02/13 10:23 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: eotab]
Attack Dawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 6160
Loc: C-Bus
I believe in his radio show interviews yesterday ,ML said they didn't see the value of drafting one of the QB's although they did aquire UDFA QB in Ryan Aplin, QB, Arkansas State.


Top
#783274 - 05/02/13 04:42 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Once again, do you see a prospect you would have drafted? I mean who do you feel they should have selected and why?

I didn't see anybody there worth the gamble. If we need a franchise QB, we'll need an answer, not a question mark.

I'd love to hear who you feel they should have selected, because for the life of me I didn't see anyone I would have picked.
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783275 - 05/02/13 04:46 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Quote:

This is an open forum of opinion. Please spare me the lecture.




Yours hasn't been an opinion. Yours is saying if they missed on any pick at QB this draft, they are bad.

Then can you do us a favor and name one FO in the NFL who bats 1000 on their drafts? That never misses or overlooks someone?

Of course it's impossible to do because every FO in the NFL does.

It's nice if you have something to base your opinion on, but in this case there isn't anything there......
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783276 - 05/02/13 07:22 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Versatile Dog Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 42995
Pit: bonefish has been saying we need a qb for years. He is obsessed w/it. He's a pretty good poster and is an intelligent guy.

I do think he is getting carried away, simply because I think all the qbs in this draft have as many--or more--question marks than Weeden does. I am glad we didn't draft a qb. But, the guy has been consistent that we won't win until we settle the qb position.

I am just posting this so you see where he is coming from. He's not really a jerk or anything.
_________________________
#GotRealPlayers

Top
#783277 - 05/02/13 09:32 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
MrUniverse Offline

Rookie

Registered: 03/02/13
Posts: 66
Vers, I agree and also think that Weeden is going to look totally different this year in comparison to last year. He will have one year experience, be more ready for the speed of the game, know his surrounding players better and be playing in a offense that is much more suited than what Shurmur dealt him.

His young surrounding players will also have more experience this year, this offense was so lost last year that I don't think any player on offense knew what they were doing or supposed to do.

Bess is going to be a big help for Weeden and just a nice target.

I thought Weeden did a good job last year as a rookie playing with a bunch of young players and rookies. Weeden did not really have any experienced players help him out any.

.

Top
#783278 - 05/03/13 10:08 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

I watch some college games not alot. If there is guy who has attracted my attention I try to catch his games. I was nuts over Luck the first time I saw him as a junior.

Since the Browns were out of the playoffs early and Weeden did not look like the answer to me I started scouting quarterbacks.

The guy I liked the most and posted about very early was Tyler Wilson.

His numbers fell off his senior year so I knew he would be available. I thought he would be a steel in the third.

The Petrino scandal along with a horrible OL and the loss of key receivers left him as meat his senior year. Never have a seen a tougher kid. He took a pounding. Hung in there and delivered the ball. He was rushed heavy and receivers dropped passes. He had to change his steps to from under center ( Gruden pointed it out in his QB camp) to get back quickly to try and create space.

He never made excuses. He led his team. He has a quick live arm. He is accurate and he can move in the pocket and run when needed.

NFL former Raven and Brown's scout (Daniel Jeremiah) now on NFL network said he was the toughest prospect he ever scouted.

Pull up his tapes. Watch him with Gruden. Here is a highlight tape. I am not big on highlight tapes rather watch games.

http://www.youtube.com/v/FwP77akozPs

http://www.youtube.com/v/iHIiDgGDGOo
South Carolina game

Top
#783279 - 05/03/13 10:36 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

"Yours hasn't been an opinion. Yours is saying if they missed on any pick at QB this draft, they are bad. "
=============================================

It is very clearly my opinion.

I have stated clearly that I understand they are taking a wait and see approach. And if it works out they should be applauded.

Obviously, each progressing round the odds go down in selecting players to make it in the NFL. However, history has shown the first round is no guarantee. In addition players slip through "the process".

Jim Harbaugh wanted Kaepernick from the get go even though he had Alex Smith who was performing at a high level. Why? Because he recognized the talent.

I want the Browns front office to have vision like that.

For crying out loud we had the first pick in the draft and whiffed on Tim Couch. Then when we had the ammo to get Griffin we lacked the vision to get it done.

Washington made it happen. I really don't want to here the excuses about the WCO etc. etc. When you see that kind of talent and it there for the taking you get him. You build around that talent. Washington was in the same place as the Browns when that draft started. Where are they now? They made the playoffs. The town and the team are excited about their future. They are set for the next 10 to 12 years at quarterback. Where are the Browns? Oh yes, we are still trying to evaluate a 30 year old quarterback to see if he will develop.
========================================================

It is quite clear Banner thinks he is the smartest guy in the room.

I really hope he is. I want him very badly to be the best FO guy in the NFL. His current strategy is clear as gin.

I still maintain that if he misses on bringing a franchise quarterback to Cleveland I want his head boiled in lye.

Top
#783280 - 05/03/13 10:50 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
Wilson grew on me - I did think as bad as the draft was for a top 50 pick on a QB...I did think there were Mid-Late round steals available.

1. we did not have a plethra of picks.

2. a developmental QB would be for a possible fix a couple of years down the road - no impact whatsoever for 2013. Of course possibly a similar occurrence of 2010 n Colt with #1 n #2 QBs go down n be thrown into service.

3. again possibly we actually are impressed with Lewis for that #3 guy. I was surprised we didn't trade him to the Eagles

4 - as bad as this draft was in QBs - possibly the timing is so right - We will have a better bead on Weeden to continue with him or look somewhere else. The 2014 QB class is to be that much better n don't know what Junior or Senior QBs will jump out to the forefront from nowhere. And we got 9 picks from that draft...so far

As for Weeden. I'm not going to get into a debate...just state this observation.

I really do not think he n some others on our team - Believed in our Offense last season. There were some dissension mumbling here n there that ties into this "PURE SPECULATION" on my part.

I am almost certain that Weeden already believes in this offense.

I won't attest to great or bust or anything like that...I am almost certain about the Weeden believing in the offense...To predict the results in this different attitude I cannot I will assume that Weeden will FEEL much more COMFORTABLE which for a QB can be the difference needed.


JMHO
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

Top
#783281 - 05/03/13 12:12 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Well much like you, I'm not sold on Banner. I'm at the point, with one failing system after another, I want to see results. I'm not predicting failure nor am I predicting success, I just want results. So we're very much alike in that regard.

And I do understand your frustration. God knows I think we all feel it on some level. However, you mention RG3 in your post and this FO was not responsible fore that. I also think most everybody and their brother knew Luck was the best prospect to come along for a very long time.

And while Tyler Wilson may or may not end up being a great NFL QB, I think the jury is far from out there. You must admit that throwing away Weeden after one season for a QB with as many or more question marks may not be a sound way to move forward.

It seems just a bit confusing to me how on one hand you speak of RG3 and Luck, then go on to speak about Tyler Wilson. These comparisons are day and night. The first two were very good bets and the third is a much higher risk.

I guess we just see this differently. When they do address the QB position if need be, I would much rather see them looking at a guy who has a very high chance of success. We need a lot of help still on this team. I would much rather see the solution drafted rather than a project drafted.

We've seen Frye, Colt and this angle used before. I for one have seen enough of it. I do know other FO's have whiffed on the QB position. I know that as a whole it's very frustrating. But I'm not going to try to pile on this FO for the mistakes of previous regimes.

My question is..... If they do need to and do select a QB next year high in the draft and both he and Wilson turn out to be good QB's, will you still feel they didn't address the position properly?
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783282 - 05/03/13 03:23 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

Thx Verse. We may not always agree but I respect your opinion and always check out what you have to say. Same goes for EO.

Top
#783283 - 05/03/13 04:23 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada
" I also think most everybody and their brother knew Luck was the best prospect to come along for a very long time."
==========================================================

Just for the record when I saw Luck for the first time when he was a junior I had never heard of or seen him before.

I called fellow Browns fan and told him I just seen the best college quarterback I had ever seen.
==========================================================
"The first two were very good bets and the third is a much higher risk. "
====================================================

Keep in mind risk /reward. When you pick a guy in the fourth it is not a big deal if he bombs. It is when the pick is a first rounder both in money and time.

In my opinion Wilson was well worth a fourth rounder.

=========================================================

You have little control over the draft. When you pick? Who is there? That is why when the stars align like when Griffin was there you have to act. I know Holmgren was the man at fault.

For a guy with his experience and the pure fact that he stated that "the most important decision we will make will be a quarterback". That wound will not heal.
==========================================================

Banner may prove to be right. He may already be looking at someone next year and made the moves this year to set up a move next year. Given where we are now I hope he is right.

Just for the record there is a guy I like. David Fales of San Jose State.
========================================================

"My question is..... If they do need to and do select a QB next year high in the draft and both he and Wilson turn out to be good QB's, will you still feel they didn't address the position properly? "
======================

That is a loaded question. It depends on the level of success. The other factors are time and money.

If you have Tyler Wilson now with the salary of a fourth rounder you are way ahead. Most players need some time especially quarterbacks, so Wilson would be a year ahead in development at a low cost. Allowing management more options within cap space. He may succeed. He may not.

If Banner lands a quarterback next year (and I believe Weeden will make that decision a must). He needs to hit a home run. Let's say for grins the Browns win 8 games. They will most likely have to trade up to get "their man" whoever that may be. What will be the cost in picks?

Certainly there is no guarantee of success even though the percentages are higher, the higher the pick. First rounders make more dough. Although the new CBA makes the salary structure more sane. Bradford being the last of mega rookie contracts.

But if Banner lands a guy on par with the top quarterbacks I will not fault his strategy. However, his other selections in this years draft specifically Mingo and McFadden need to play well. Mingo needs to prove worthy of the sixth pick in the draft.

I am way past first round failures. That should be inexcusable with the tools available to today's GM's.

Top
#783284 - 05/03/13 04:40 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I agree pretty much with everything you posted. Sometimes once it's talked through, people find they're not so far apart.

I know we really did need a CB in round 3 and I'm not as sold on any of the mid round QB's that were available in this years draft as you were. So that's really the only difference there.

I agree with you about Mingo and McFadden. Especially Mingo. I'm with you, there are too many tools available and we had enough needs at different positions for Mingo to fail and anyone excuse it.

And next year is a loaded question. We have no idea where we will be drafting and/or what it may cost us to move up depending on where we are slotted.

I guess it will just have to all play out to know which was the better option. I would have had no problem with a mid round QB pick if they actually saw an answer there. I'd say they must have saw more value at the CB position there than at QB.

We certainly had a dire need at the CB position immediately. So I won't actually fault the pick until I see how things unfold.
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

Top
#783285 - 05/03/13 06:05 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

Fair enough. Good exchange

Top
#783286 - 05/04/13 06:36 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Ballpeen Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 27693
Quote:

I'm not predicting failure nor am I predicting success, I just want results.




We have results every Sunday during the season ...just maybe not the kind we want.


One draft doesn't tell much, but as of this point, I like very much the way Banner is proceeding. I've liked what he has had to say, I agree with the vast majority of the moves in FA, including moving away from Dawson even though I really like the guy....OK...I might not agree with that one, but I do understand why we did it.

I also think we did a good job in the draft, As usual you never agree with all of the picks, but once you step back you see it filled some needs and added better choices next year. I also have some hope that possibly a few of the UDFA guys might step in and make the squad.

On paper, I like it all, but as you said, results(of a positive nature) would be nice to see next fall.

I am not going to put a number on wins and losses, but if we see a D getting after the ball and being able to stop teams on 3rd down a decent number of times, if we see a O that moves the ball and starts scoring TD's more frequently, we'll know progress has been made, no matter the record.

Wins are the result of being able to do the things mentioned earlier. If we do that, wins will shake out, and if we start doing that, it builds in to a winning attitude. Then you can start stealing some games you probably should have lost because you have the winners edge.
_________________________
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong





Top
#783287 - 05/04/13 08:51 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
bonefish...if Weeden fails we will be picking very early. 8-8 I know you didn't put out as a prediction. But I don't see how that would be possible n Weeden fail. Its either he fails n we got a very early pick...or he doesn't n we are in the middle of the pack possibly a surprise team for post season. Assuming some Jrs. come out - there might be 3 top 5 QBs available as opposed to one first rounder in 2013.

I'd rather have Weeden succeed of course n will worry about the worse only when it is a reality. No reason to worry about that now. Way I do it n don't expect others to follow my way. I will say one thing. Heckert Holmgren did this REGIME a big favor. I mean if I had to hand pick a None RG3/Luck QB - Weeden would be the guy! As bad as Weeden was for their system - He's perfect for our current system. I find that very weird but so true...maybe we are finally blessed???

JMHO n Hopes
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

Top
#783288 - 05/04/13 09:25 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: eotab]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

Next year could go in any direction black, white or grey. Plenty of factors involved to determine the final outcome. Weeden is a part.

The Browns record next year? Who knows?

That is part of the problem. If you look at the careers of Flacco and Matt Ryan you see a pattern of development.

That is a big problem when you are trying to develop a guy who comes into the league at 29.

I am unsure how you can say that Weeden will either fail big or succeed big. He should develop and improve from last year. Maybe he improves some but not alot.

I know you and many others buy into the new system and how it suites Weeden.
I don't buy it.

When Donavan McNabb came into the league. He was a big strong athlete. Who had a big arm and could run. He played in the WCO. That did not stop him from throwing downfield.

The problems displayed by Weeden are more related to defensive recognition and timing. Knowing who to throw the ball too and when.

Yes, he may play more from the shotgun. Yes, he should improve because he is in his second year and he should know more about defenses.

I can see him being what I have always thought he would be - mediocre.

Where will that lead when you have a decent defense how about 8-8 ? Forever.

Top
#783289 - 05/04/13 09:31 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
Again in lieu of making this another QB thread...won't be my long winded self.

Big expectations of Weeden = DA's production in this system.

JMHO
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

Top
#783290 - 05/04/13 09:39 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: eotab]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

Do you think that it mattered some that Winslow and Edwards had great seasons or was it all DA in Chud's system?

If Weeden equals DA then adios amigo. Not interested in a one year wonder.

Top
#783291 - 05/04/13 10:02 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
Ballpeen Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 27693
If he sustains what DA did that year, nothing wrong with that.

Seeing as how Winslow and Edwards have done little since that season, I'd say the answer is clear.
_________________________
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong





Top
#783292 - 05/04/13 10:05 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
Neither did anything great but run the routes of the SYSTEM...there was so much separation for those two that season. That we forced team into zone giving up that underneath stuff where DA just didn't have. But early on that vertical stretch...there were no tight windows n great plays by either...just a lot of catch n runs. BE did have that good extension on the Sidelines that was exceptional but the vertical stretch stuff was system. I see more potential from Gordon than BE at this stage - Cameron who knows - what I do know he won't be in the training room during the week but out on the field learning the game plan. Trent 2013 is more talented than 30 year old Lewis. Little n now Bess for the JJ n who knows the other big kid from FA healing? The weapons are there if Weeden can be comfortable in the system which means so many of the negatives evaporating from last season. I see him to be "POSSIBLY" (we will find out if he can make the progress or is a bust???) better than DA cause when teams over play the Vertical game Weeden is much more accurate on the underneath routes.

You keep picturing Weeden struggling with the environment set up last year n that is who he is. Comfort is a big part of football. Just about every negative is relieved via COMFORT of the new system. Again all talk until we see it on the field. I look at the positive that Can very well be achieved...You look at the Negatives not changing at all - in our Assements. Won't claim my view is more likely...Even though it is lol

We'll see soon enough.
JMHO
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

Top
#783293 - 05/04/13 11:05 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45608
Loc: YTown, Ohio
Quote:


Do you think that it mattered some that Winslow and Edwards had great seasons or was it all DA in Chud's system?

If Weeden equals DA then adios amigo. Not interested in a one year wonder.




I assume that you mean that you don't want Weeden to "equal" DA in having only one good season?

DA's season as our starter was one of the best as far as throwing TD passes. Only Brian Sipe had ever thrown more in a single Browns season. I would take that for Weeden's 2nd season.
_________________________
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

Top
#783294 - 05/04/13 11:35 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

DA could not sustain any type of performance after one season.

I want to win and win consistently and then win a championship. If Weeden can accomplish that: then I will forever love him.

============================================================

I had DVR'd the Gruden camp with Tyler Wilson and just now watched it.

In my mind Wilson would have been a steel in the third. Here is prediction I am willing to make:

Tyler Wilson will be the best quarterback in Oakland. If given a equal shot ( I do not see a reason why not). He will beat out Matt Flynn and Pryor.

He will prove to be a very good quarterback.

Top
#783295 - 05/04/13 12:09 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45608
Loc: YTown, Ohio
What NFL traits do you see when you look at Wilson?

He looks to me like an OK WCO type QB if all he has to do is throw mainly shorter routes, but I am not impressed at all with his ability to go down the field. He is a shorter QB, and has the dreaded small hands. He's not really a scrambler, though he can move in the pocket. His footwork is suspect, at best though.

He is a solid character kid, and is a strong leader on the field. I do like his short field accuracy.

Overall though, I just don't see anything approaching sure NFL ability. He might have a more clear route to a starting shot, but like Colt McCoy, I just don't see the ability to load a team on his shoulders and lead then beyond their abilities. I think that his upside is an Alex Smith type, where he can be effective if he has everything around him, but will struggle unless he has every piece in place.
_________________________
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

Top
#783296 - 05/04/13 05:55 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Time will tell.

I see no limits in his game. He could run any offense. First he is leader. Second he is tough as nails. Those traits are not gimmies. He has a good live arm. He is accurate. He can run when needed. He moves well in the pocket to create. He can throw from multiple arm slots. He throws well on the run. He can work in chaos. He can make any required throw.

He fell into some bad habits his senior year. Trying to do to much and trying to survive under extreme pressure from a horrible O-line.

If things had not fallen apart at Arkansas his senior year he would have been a first round pick. He is every bit as good as Christian Ponder.

We shall see. Maybe I am all wet.

Top
#783297 - 05/04/13 10:47 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45608
Loc: YTown, Ohio
I don't think that a few bad habits would take a guy from round 1 to round 4. Heck, from your description, he seems like a guy who teams should have been falling all over themselves to trade back into the late 1st to grab. He sure should have gone well before the 4th round, even with an off .

I just don't see top end talent there. I see, at best, a backup/starter who is perpetually under threat of being replaced. I think that his arm will limit him in the NFL, plus he developed bad habits. His footworks breaks down badly, and I don't know how many coaches want to rebuild a QB from the ground up.

For the record, I thought that Ponder was overdrafted as well.
_________________________
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

Top
#783298 - 05/05/13 01:41 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
4thandPunt Offline

Practice Squad

Registered: 10/24/12
Posts: 137
j/c

This kinda turned into a QB thread (what thread doesn't?) so I'll give my reason for not being too worried about the QB play this year.

A lot of us have talked about the reason for Weeden possibly finding success being that he will run an offense with routes that attack areas of the field that he is more comfortable with.

I differ a bit, because I think that he is more likely to succeed in this offense because concepts will be simpler.

The WCO has terminology that is ridiculously unwieldy, Coryell's system is better, and the Erhardt-Perkins the best. We'll be running the Coryell primarily, but I won't be surprised if we incorporate better, simpler communication systems, especially in light of Chud's work with Newton.

Other people an explain this better than I can, so I have a few links at the bottom if anyone is interested in reading it.

My reason for feeling more confident is basically one play from last year though.

Against Washington, we were having a dismal second half. On this play, there were problems communicating the play from the sideline to Weeden, a disturbingly common occurrence under Shurmur. Weeden, who was visibly angry at this point, decides to call his own play and run it quickly.

Result- Weeden to Benjamin TD.

Some guys are built to just GO. For Weeden, there was simply too much coaching last year. He's a guy that is going to succeed by being in a system built to minimize thinking and maximize action, and the coaching last year was a major failure.

Will he succeed? I have no idea, but I think he is being put in the best position to do so.

Links:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8849...-brady-patriots

http://smartfootball.com/offense/the-future-of-the-nfl-more-up-tempo-no-huddle

http://smartfootball.com/offense/combining-quick-passes-run-plays-and-screens-in-the-same-play
_________________________
Proud fan of the Pulaski Academy football strategy.

Top
#783299 - 05/05/13 02:08 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: 4thandPunt]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45608
Loc: YTown, Ohio
To me, the simpler the system, the better. Being able to get a play called and get to the line immediately, as opposed to spending half the clock trying to just get out of the huddle is vitally important. I like Turner's system, because once a receiver leans what 1-9 are, it's easy for him to stop thinking about what he's doing, and just do it. There is less confusion, and it's so much easier to keep the QB and receiver on the same page.

I often think that coaches try to get too clever for their own good, and call plays with such in depth and intricate play calls that it damn near takes a master's degree to understand them. It creates confusion, not for the opposing team, but for his own team. I hate seeing a play where the QB goes one place with the ball, and the receiver is somewhere else entirely. (as it seemed happened way too frequently last year) It seems to me that simpler calls help eliminate that kind of problem.
_________________________
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

Top
#783300 - 05/05/13 09:38 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: eotab]
aej Offline

Rookie

Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 40
I still say watch out for Campbell. Until we busted his collar bone two years ago he was hitting his stride and lighting up the nfl with his arm. If Weeden fails, or Jason beats him in preseason, I wouldn't mind at all having him take over and lead this team. I have a feeling he just might be the one to lead us for a couple of years until we can get a young gun to develop. He has a good arm, fits turners O very well and he is battle tested.

Top
#783301 - 05/05/13 10:15 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: aej]
Damanshot Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 37695
Loc: Aurora, Ohio
Quote:

I still say watch out for Campbell. Until we busted his collar bone two years ago he was hitting his stride and lighting up the nfl with his arm. If Weeden fails, or Jason beats him in preseason, I wouldn't mind at all having him take over and lead this team. I have a feeling he just might be the one to lead us for a couple of years until we can get a young gun to develop. He has a good arm, fits turners O very well and he is battle tested.




1 question: Does it matter? seriously, to me it doesn't matter who the QB is as long as he does his job and does it well.. And of the two guys you mention, I'm not at all certain either is the long term answer.

What we need from either of them is to be the best "FILLER" they can be until we find THE guy.

And hey, if one of them emerges as THE guy,, Great. All the better.
_________________________
#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot

Top
#783302 - 05/05/13 10:39 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

The draft is a complicated process with many factors that steer the results. One thing that is has proven over and over again it is not an exact science. Sometimes things fall in weird ways and guys slip.

You can never tell how bad someone wants it. Leadership can not be taught. Guys like Brees and Russell Wilson have redefined height standards.

Once drafted no matter where the individual makes his own mark.

Top
#783303 - 05/05/13 10:57 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45608
Loc: YTown, Ohio
I remember last year when people wanted to hang Heckert for taking Hughes in the 3rd round.

I think that he turned out to be a pretty damn solid 3rd round investment. 34 tackles and 3 sacks as a backup DT is a pretty damn solid season for a rookie DT.

Of course, last year's draft probably had more people up in arms than any other I can remember off hand. Maybe Butch taking Jackson in the 3rd round of the 2001 draft, behind Gerard Warren and Quincy Morgan ... or us trading up to take Winslow.
_________________________
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >