DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum 3 rants: Can, MVP, unclear subject posts

Can the Browns win the next 3 Super Bowls? Yes, will they, nope. Don't fan the flames of hope by using the word can.

MVP is not the best player on the best team. The most valuable player is the player that means the most to their respective team, not the best player on the best team.

Your lack of clarity in your subject post is noted. No need to be cryptic to entice readers, give us a subject.

What's the difference between most valuable and best?

The easy idea, would be that Josh Gordon is one of if not best offensive players we have..

He is also currently the least valuable..

You can't be the best if you don't play games. Most talented and best are not the same.

brady and manning?

Which one is which?

I hate the argument that the media/talking heads make, where if you took player A off their team, they'd be a bad team. If you took Brady or Manning and removed them from their respective teams, both teams would be bad.

But what if you switched them? What if Peyton played his whole career with New England and Brady split his between Indy/Denver?

Peyton gets the lockdown defense for the first 6 years of his career, then a lethal offense for the last 7-8, to go along with arguably the greatest football coach in NFL history.

Brady gets some bad eary on teams, which gets turned into an offensive power (that plays no defense) and eventually moves on to Denver where it's a very nice balanced team that also has great skill guys.

It's an interesting conversation.

That argument is why I will always consider Manning better.

Tom Brady wasn't "Tom Brady" his first 4-5 years.. He was a game manager that had one of the best defenses in the league..

*delete*

I find your subject post ironic considering how unclear it is

Starting in 2001 (Brady's first year as a starter) he averaged 25 TDs, 13Ints, 3600 yds. and 509 passes per year. I'd say that's a lot better than game manager.

link: http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504211/careerstats

Brady rarely plays with "star" players. Randy Moss was the only star receiver he ever played with. I'd argue a little bit of this is due to the mad scientist work of Bill, but still...

Brady>Manning.

Plus, Brady plays in much harsher conditions.

I'd say that's literally the definition if a game manager..

Hoyer through the first 8 weeks of 2014 (peak game manager mode) had 2014 yards, 10 tds, and 4 int..

Double that for a full season and you have 4000 yards, 20 tds, and 8 ints...

Just saying.

If Brady doesn't have a Top 3 if not the best defense for the first 4 years of his career, he doesn't have 3 SB rings, and isn't even in the discussion..

What other QB would've won rings in that situation?

The difference between elite and game manager is about a lot more than total numbers. When the game is on the line do you lead the game winning drive? When the defense takes away what you wanted to do, can you do something else and still win? (Hoyer couldn't)

Brady has won with great defenses, he's won with very questionable defenses, he's won with great running games, he's won with minimal running games, he's won with talented WRs, he's won with off-the-street WRs, he's won throwing it 45 times, he's won throwing it 18 times, he's won in the heat, the snow, and in domes, he's won in the regular season, the playoffs, and the super bowl in a variety of ways.

Of the 5 super bowls that the 49ers won with Montana and Young, their defenses ranked in scoring... 2, 1, 8, 3, 6... so it's safe to say that without great defenses, Montana and Young would have less rings as well. Maybe Joe Montana isn't an elite QB either...

Aikmans 3 super bowls, scoring defense ranked 5, 2, 3... not elite either I suppose.

The fact that even great QBs win more super bowls and playoff games with better defenses shouldn't be a shock to anybody and it does nothing to diminish their ability as QBs

I'm not saying Brady isn't a great QB, all time, probably top 10 easy..

But people are so quikc to just annoint him as the GOAT..

Hell the lead up to the SB was if NE won, Brady cements himself as the GOAT QB..

It's so trophy based, and i completely disagree with it..

I agree with you that GOAT discussions are often too trophy based... so in Tom Brady's career, if they win this SB, he's the GOAT, if a no name CB off the street doesn't make a great play at the 1 yard line, somehow that affects Tom Brady's legacy.. or if a guy makes or misses a FG affects your legacy as a QB? Yea, I don't get that either..

However, the same reasons you would use to discredit Tom Brady, by "probably putting him in the top 10"... I could use the same logic to discredit pretty much anybody you would put ahead of him.

Every great QB who has won a lot of games or championships had help.. great defenses, great running games, great coaches.. maybe not all at the same time, but nobody wins games or championships alone... which is one of the things that makes GOAT discussions so fascinating, because there is no obvious right answer normally.. and frustrating, because some people seem to think there is an absolute right answer..

It also doesn't help that in the 80s and 90s you'd have a few newspaper articles here and there, eventually sportscenter would come on during the week and they'd talk about it..

Now a days? It's maddening how driven into the dirt, buried, dug up and beaten to death a simple topic can be in a 24 hour period..