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I should note, Malcolm Brown would be a bit of a project pick. He's not very refined right now, and his defense in the running game is...well, I'd call it flat out bad.
Shelton may not provide a pass rush, although I think he'll be more than fine at it in the NFL for a NT, he is an elite run stopper day one. NFL Centers and Guards will have a tough time moving him on a double team, let alone by themselves. Which is pretty much what I said, just stated differently. I agree he is a Wilfork type player...time will tell if he is that good. Brown is less of a specialist, offering size, strength and more mobility. What I saw on film he played both DT & DE and both 4-3 and 3-4 at Texas. Like I said, he isn't as good as Shelton against the run, but he's not slouch either. I don't think he's good at the run, full stop. I saw him get dominated by lesser talent and lesser teams. BYU particularly ate him alive on the running game, and Oklahoma constantly had him on his back. He's got developable traits, but he'll never be elite at anything like Shelton will be.
you had a good run Hank.
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Ok BBD, don't let it ever be said I can't keep an open mind. You have convinced me.
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thank you for the post.
First of all I am all in on trench warfare.
My projections for parker 1100-1200 yards at receiving for the next 10 years.
Gurley,the best running back in the nfl.
beckman 1800 yard receiver I will give him a chance with that kind of upside.
On the line I only have two starters that I have seen and there both gone by the time we draft.
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If you all think he is like Wilfork...you all are dreaming.
Wilfork had a quick step...heck even now in his twilight of a career he would make Shelton look like a sloth mirrored up.
I would consider it a total REACH NEED PICK. For a 2 down player whose prowess is to eat up blockers. Not make plays...eat up blockers. If that is who we want he is perfect for it. He's a Wilfork??? sorry man no way not even close. And if Shelton stands up like he did in film I watched...he won't even be a good space eater. Slow and I'm not talking 40 slow...I'm talking 5-10 yard slow...Does not do well in the NFL.
As stated if our aim is to get a guy to just not get moved from the middle taking up the A GAPs...then he is our guy. Not usually a guy taken early. Malcom Brown is a kid that goes early cause he will stud out if he is discipline in the D scheme.
jmho
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Lol...me and you have pretty much exact opposite views of Shelton and Brown. I think Shelton has shown the size, speed combo that can make him a 3 down player, but Malcolm to me wouldn't be a 1st rounder in most drafts (again my opinion). Brown is a 34 DE only who can provide some pass rush ability, but is a prospect that can be had in round 2 in most drafts. Shelton on the other hand is a true NT that has the physical abilities to develop into a monster.....those don't come around often. I take Shelton 10 out of 10 times and am happy he fell to me at 12 (although I don't think he makes it out of the top 10 personally).
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Isn't what he said what I've been saying all along?
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If what you've been saying is skip Danny Shelton and draft Malcom Brown, then I'm with cfrs and tab.
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If you all think he is like Wilfork...you all are dreaming.
Wilfork had a quick step...heck even now in his twilight of a career he would make Shelton look like a sloth mirrored up.
I would consider it a total REACH NEED PICK. For a 2 down player whose prowess is to eat up blockers. Not make plays...eat up blockers. If that is who we want he is perfect for it. He's a Wilfork??? sorry man no way not even close. And if Shelton stands up like he did in film I watched...he won't even be a good space eater. Slow and I'm not talking 40 slow...I'm talking 5-10 yard slow...Does not do well in the NFL.
As stated if our aim is to get a guy to just not get moved from the middle taking up the A GAPs...then he is our guy. Not usually a guy taken early. Malcom Brown is a kid that goes early cause he will stud out if he is discipline in the D scheme.
jmho Tab good assessment! Compare Shelton or Brown to last years rookie pro bowl DT Aaron Donald. Aaron drafted thirtieth. Shelton or Brown would not even be discussed if they came out last year.
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Big Willie - not looking to be the opposite. Look I did not watch all his game film but I watched entire game film. Maybe his opponents were too easy? No need for him to stud?
But what I saw was a DLman with no quick first step...FIRST STEP is all I ask not 40 time. I didn't see it. I didn't see explosion. What I saw is when the OL came at him...he didn't move. But when i say he didn't move HE DIDN'T MOVE good didn't move and bad didn't move. Then when I looked at his Combine numbers it sort of reinforced what I saw. And I looked no further than his 10 split. Which was not good. Almost 2 seconds.
The other thing I saw was him standing up and in the NFL he will be totally controlled. College he was a Man among boys...again the only thing possible is that I didn't watch 10 games of him to make my assessment. I didn't watch any hilight reel on him. Just game tape.
I was like HUH? what is the ado about this kid? Brown I saw a good burst acceleration from him kept his shoulders low and he was 320...There are two ways of play two gap...both you have to be disciplined.
1. Neutralize the blockers be able to go either side as a gap responsibility.
2. to penetrate get the head past the body of the OL...knifing penetrating like a baby cresting out of the womb. and from their spying both gaps...driving towards one gap from the already controlled gap.
don't know if we are set on one way or the other or will utilize the talent we have to determine. One is Shelton and Two is Brown. JMHO
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Donald was drafted 13th, not 30th. Also, he is a 4-3 under tackle only. Shelton is a nose tackle. It's much easier to find a good 3-technique player than a nose, which is why the nose is often drafted higher than maybe they should be on talent alone.
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If what you've been saying is skip Danny Shelton and draft Malcom Brown, then I'm with cfrs and tab. I've been saying I'd pass on drafting a two down player in the first round. Especially with the depth at the nose tackle position in this draft.
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Danny Shelton isn't a 2 down player though.
you had a good run Hank.
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Big Willie - not looking to be the opposite. Look I did not watch all his game film but I watched entire game film. Maybe his opponents were too easy? No need for him to stud?
But what I saw was a DLman with no quick first step...FIRST STEP is all I ask not 40 time. I didn't see it. I didn't see explosion. What I saw is when the OL came at him...he didn't move. But when i say he didn't move HE DIDN'T MOVE good didn't move and bad didn't move. Then when I looked at his Combine numbers it sort of reinforced what I saw. And I looked no further than his 10 split. Which was not good. Almost 2 seconds.
The other thing I saw was him standing up and in the NFL he will be totally controlled. College he was a Man among boys...again the only thing possible is that I didn't watch 10 games of him to make my assessment. I didn't watch any hilight reel on him. Just game tape.
I was like HUH? what is the ado about this kid? Brown I saw a good burst acceleration from him kept his shoulders low and he was 320...There are two ways of play two gap...both you have to be disciplined.
1. Neutralize the blockers be able to go either side as a gap responsibility.
2. to penetrate get the head past the body of the OL...knifing penetrating like a baby cresting out of the womb. and from their spying both gaps...driving towards one gap from the already controlled gap.
don't know if we are set on one way or the other or will utilize the talent we have to determine. One is Shelton and Two is Brown. JMHO I know you weren't trying to be contrary tabber....sorry if it came across like I was saying that. You are one of the few guys I readily admit knows more football than I do. Usually, I find myself agreeing with you on draft prospects, but this year it seems we are complete opposites. You like Williams....me not so much. I like Shelton.....you not so much...lol. I just thought it was funny. You did hit on something that I absolutely agree with however. It really depends on what the Browns are wanting. Shelton imo has the potential to be a dominate run stuffer. However, although I believe he has the skill set to develop into a decent pass rusher, he will never be a guy that is a sack machine. My biggest beef with Brown is I just don't see him being able to play the NT, and if a 34 DE has to be elite to drafted that high to merit the selection...just don't see it in MB. If he was there at 19 then sure he's as good as anyone else that will be there in this draft. I think our difference in opinion derives from you placing more value on MB's ability to get after the passer, and me placing more value on DS eating up blocks and allowing the backers to hopefully shore up our horrendous run D. This is a nutty draft man. I love about 5-10 guys, but then after that I see a whole lot of similar prospects that wouldn't have been 1st round picks in most years. Take the WRs for instance....no way White or Parker go ahead of any of the 3 from last year, but there is a real chance that both will be gone before we pick 12..lol. That speaks volumes to talent at the top in this draft. I really wish I liked Mariotta more, because this would be the year to dump our picks for a stud QB....just don't think he is that guy.
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Donald was drafted 13th, not 30th. Also, he is a 4-3 under tackle only. Shelton is a nose tackle. It's much easier to find a good 3-technique player than a nose, which is why the nose is often drafted higher than maybe they should be on talent alone. Thanks, I wanted to say 13th. Changing!
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If you all think he is like Wilfork...you all are dreaming.
Wilfork had a quick step...heck even now in his twilight of a career he would make Shelton look like a sloth mirrored up.
I would consider it a total REACH NEED PICK. For a 2 down player whose prowess is to eat up blockers. Not make plays...eat up blockers. If that is who we want he is perfect for it. He's a Wilfork??? sorry man no way not even close. And if Shelton stands up like he did in film I watched...he won't even be a good space eater. Slow and I'm not talking 40 slow...I'm talking 5-10 yard slow...Does not do well in the NFL.
As stated if our aim is to get a guy to just not get moved from the middle taking up the A GAPs...then he is our guy. Not usually a guy taken early. Malcom Brown is a kid that goes early cause he will stud out if he is discipline in the D scheme.
jmho Tab good assessment! Compare Shelton or Brown to last years rookie pro bowl DT Aaron Donald. Aaron drafted thirtieth thirteenth. Shelton or Brown would not even be discussed if they came out last year.
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Danny Shelton isn't a 2 down player though. If you don't think he can rush the passer, he is a two down player. Maybe even a one down player (in certain situations). Guys like Eddie Goldman and Jordan Phillips will be available later in the draft and can be run stuffers. Also I don't know much about the guy, but a guy like Tyeler Davison intrigues me later in the draft. (I have to make a token mention of Ellis McCarthy, who, if healthy, would be a great nose tackle.)
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Danny Shelton isn't a 2 down player though. If you don't think he can rush the passer, he is a two down player. Maybe even a one down player (in certain situations). Guys like Eddie Goldman and Jordan Phillips will be available later in the draft and can be run stuffers. Also I don't know much about the guy, but a guy like Tyeler Davison intrigues me later in the draft. (I have to make a token mention of Ellis McCarthy, who, if healthy, would be a great nose tackle.) Ok. Well, like I said, I don't think Danny Shelton is a two down player. As a pass rusher at NT, he isn't the worst I've ever seen. Probably better than both Rubin and Taylor are right now. I don't see a reason for him to leave the game on passing downs unless he's tired.
you had a good run Hank.
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Who would you rather have on the field for a passing play; Mingo, Kruger, Bryant, and Bryant (along with Dansby and six DBs) or Mingo, Kruger, Bryant (choose one), and Shelton (along Dansby and six DBs)?
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Probably both of the Bryant's but Shelton isn't a liability in pass rushing either. I'm not sure how big of a down grade it would be to go from D. Bryant to Shelton.
you had a good run Hank.
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If you believe Shelton can stay on the field for pass rushing situations, then he is definitely worth the 12th overall pick. If Shelton can rush the passer, then he shouldn't make it to the 12th overall pick.
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I think I got sucked in with the simple philosophy from our previous DC...Big men who can play fast and Little men who can hit hard.
I don't know Brown from Adam regarding pass rush. I watched game film of both and in both I looked for one thing.
First Step Explosion. That is all I think that was the most important thing to get game from them on the next level.
Williams? TE Williams?
Actually all this talk about moving up ...sometimes I wish we would move up but not for QB...get that kick butt DL from USC Williams. lol 
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Actually all this talk about moving up ...sometimes I wish we would move up but not for QB...get that kick butt DL from USC Williams. lol Yeah, we never discuss Leonard Williams because, as arguably the best athlete in this draft, it is always just assumed we have no chance for him. But I'm on board with trading both 1st for him.
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Actually all this talk about moving up ...sometimes I wish we would move up but not for QB...get that kick butt DL from USC Williams. lol Yeah, we never discuss Leonard Williams because, as arguably the best athlete in this draft, it is always just assumed we have no chance for him. But I'm on board with trading both 1st for him. Two firsts for a defensive linemen that doesn't rush the passer?
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Two firsts for a defensive linemen that doesn't rush the passer?
3-4 DE he would. I guarantee you said the same thing about JJ Watt.
JJ 4.5 & 7 his only 2 seasons at Wisconsin
LW 8, 6 & 7 his last 3 seasons at USC
Why would he not be a total creator of havoc from the 3-4 DE slot. Probably would move over to NT on passing downs.
That statement you made as a FACT was not thought out to well.
jmho
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j/c
I really haven't seen that first step burst as some have mentioned, but something works.
In 2014 Shelton had 9 sacks. Now I know that isn't in the NFL and I know that doesn't indicate a sack machine. But I do believe it bears mentioning.
For a NT I do find that fairly impressive.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Shelton is most definitely a mauler. Unfortunately a lot of his best tape came from dodgey competition (the Rainbow Warriors from Hawaii). I wouldn't say that I would be upset with the pick, but any comparisons to Wilfork or better yet Shelton's own comparison (Ngata....HA) are misplaced.
Unfortunately, he also often negates his own impressive strength by lining up 2 feet off the line on more than half the snaps I've seen over the last two seasons (about 10 games/ single game cut ups).
Even though something like that is easily correctable, I can't help but think he should have been able to get that through his head by about his sophomore year (in high school).
Ultimately, though a first round talent, I tend to disagree with all the top 10 talent rankings he's getting. I believe I still have him at #15 overall, and that's in a draft where there are only 7 guys IMO with a top 10 grade.
But...back to the thread topic...
1a (12) DeVante Parker -WR- Louisville
1b (19) Ereck Flowers -OT- Miami
2 (43) Carl Davis- DT/DE- Iowa
...assuming Bud Dupree is gone by 19 and Jordan Phillips and Maxx Williams are gone by 43.
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J/C
1a. Best DL or OLB available, whichever the team values more
1b. Gurley (he's a monster at RB, regardless of his injuries)
2. Best WR available
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Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season The NFL Draft 2015 The first 3 picks (assuming no
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