DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker

I really didn't want to start a new thread, but I couldn't find one to put this since the other Baker thread is locked and the other threads on page one don't mention him or the QBs.

I'm okay w/this thread evolving in many different ways, but can we please make it about Baker and NOT other posters? Demeaning other posters does not make Baker better or worse. Please stick to football and leave the personality crap out of it.

Anyways, towards the end of the previous Baker thread, a poster said something about Baker being fat. I disagreed. I said he looked jacked. He made a comment about too much muscle mass is not a good thing for a qb. I have always thought that QBs, baseball pitchers, shooters in basketball should not be overly muscular. I have been away from the sport for awhile, so perhaps guys like Purp, who are into weight lifting, can provide more info on this, can confirm/debate that claim.

I bring this up because there is a lot of disagreement on Baker's performance from last year to this year. I see folks saying he was good at reading coverages last year and others like me saying he did not.

However, I think we can all agree that he was much more accurate last year than this year. I was watching one of his commercials awhile ago. It is the one where he takes the mini-vac and is cleaning up after a party. Dude is jacked. Dude is thick. I don't see how that is good for accuracy. I am wondering if should back off the weights and instead hire one of the "broom sweepers" [as he calls them] this next off-season?

Thoughts?

That could be ... kind of like what people thought with Brady Quinn. It was Baker’s first real offseason, so maybe he has to find the right balance for him to be successful. He may have been worried about “holding up” for the entire season because he felt a bit worn down by week 17 last year.

I think his inaccuracy and unsuredness comes more from his lack of confidence in the offensive changes and the lack of cohesion with OBJ to this point.

It seems like when we get into more of his comfort zone with play calling that he’s more accurate, or at least not as BAD as he seems with the more “hold it and go vertical” type of plays

I disagree w/the " lack of confidence in the offensive changes and the lack of cohesion with OBJ" point, but I think you might be onto something. His issues w/reading the coverage quickly enough might be messing w/him.

I'm not sure what it is, but he hasn't been as accurate this year as last. Too much muscle mass? Confusion? I'm not sure, but I think blaming Freddie is rather weak.

What's weak is thinking that the person calling the plays has no bearing on how the offense performs.

I'm going to approach this from a slightly different way. This isn't a personal insult, but you started this thread and wrote four paragraphs just to once again point out that he didn't work with a QB coach. I know you had to show remarkable restraint to not use the term "one read". You did avoid that one. Now before you get bent out of shape just take it in a lighthearted fashion.

So instead of rehashing all that, let's concede that everyone agrees he's struggling and the reasons are many. My question is do people stand by Baker and have confidence he will improve. Because that's where I think we are at.

I'm in the group that thinks he will right the ship. I think these first six games have been humbling. I think he will put in the work, and I think he's smart enough to know what he needs to do. I don't agree that processing defenses is an innate quality that you either have or you don't. I think he will figure it out.

I put Freddie in the same category as one that will right the ship.

Stand by these guys, cheer your butts off for them, let them grow and develop. Criticize when they deserve it. But this franchise has a culture and psychology that is absolutely rotting in nature. It breeds losing, it turns winners into losers. It's suffocating. And it will only continue if we don't stick with players and coaches, no matter how painful it may be.

Well, this thread is off to a rousing start. It's like we are not allowed to discuss Baker, but it's cool to bash Freddie and other players.

I will try one more time............

Eh............no, I won't. This thread has zero chance of being productive.

What are you complaining about? You're the one who brought Freddie up and started with the bashing.

I said this in my OP:



And what do Eve, Super, and Rish resort to?

Hey refs, if you are not going to delete their posts, please lock the thread. It has zero chance of being productive. It's all about personalities now and has no chance to be about football.

Oh look. Here you are being the first person to make it about other posters.

SHAME.

I was referring to Baker's accuracy issues. Can't blame Freddie for that one.
But again, I should have never started this thread. I was debating it because I knew there would be attacks from certain folks, but I really think the muscle/accuracy correlation was a good talking point.

Of course, that point has not been discussed at all.

Confusion, lack of cohesion with everyone due to lack of time together in pre season, and others not doing their job. Throw in his not being good at reading defenses right now, and you have several reasons why he is playing like he is so far this season.

To my untrained eye, Baker is having a real problem getting the ball in front of receivers or throwing them open. He excelled at it last year. This year it appears he's looking for static targets or throwing behind everyone.

Vers, look at his face, he looks Fat, not jacked...

Also look at his belly... he's IMHO putting some unhealthy weight and looks anything but fit.

I have no problem with it , by the way.Problem is that he is not playing well.

I feel that Baker came out of the gate trying extremely hard to get the Browns to meet some very big expectations. I think he got off to a slow start that has him pressing every game to have that game that will get this train rolling in the right direction.

Baker is forcing too many throws. He has a very strong arm and I think this is a small part of the problem. His confidence and arm talent give him that gunslinger mentality that he can make every throw.

On top of that I believe 4-5 of his picks have went off a receivers hands.

I have not lost any confidence in our QB and believe that he and the team are very close to turning this around.

Go Browns!!!!!!

Something is up with Baker - his accuracy and decision making is not the same as last year. No doubt. I don't think anyone can possibly know what is up and no-one can estimate how badly the play calling is impacting that regression ... but I know if your QB is struggling, then the play calling I have witnessed through 6 games only makes those struggles WORSE not better. Last year when Haley was gone, Freddie made it "easier" to execute and have success. He removed the burden from Baker - and the result was somewhat spectacular ... this year we look as bad as when Haley was calling plays.

I agree with you - you, a poster known to have a strong dislike of Baker as an individual, starting a thread about Baker and thinking it would stay on track .... not going to happen.

J/C

I don't think Baker's workout regimen is causing him issues. Imagine if we caught wind that he didn't work out, I'm sure some would use that as the reason why he is struggling. It'll be a neverending battle for some.

Baker is building strength not muscle. There is a difference.

And I don't think he's as inaccurate as some want to believe. Everyone throws errant passes. Some of those are on the quarterback and some of those are on the receivers.

The offense, playcalling, and coaching are for sure a factor. I think it's important that our coaches get Baker going early in the game. He seems to struggle when he feels like he has to be the hero. I also feel the high expectations are a factor. Last year when he came in we were 1-32-1. We were expected to fail. We seem to do better as underdogs. That's his MO.

I also thought we had a great opening drive vs Tennessee. Then he got hurt, a wrist injury of sorts. He hasn't seemed the same since. He was also hurt in the previous game. No one has really mentioned how gritty it was for him to return to the game. That will go a long way with teammates... that's what great leaders do.

We seem hung up on "what's wrong with Baker." We need to look at the things he does well and build off those things. That's what great coaches do.

Not all that hurts the Browns is on Bakers shoulders.

I'm not sure if the number, but for instance, his most recent interception killed us.. It just crushed us at the end of the seattle game. and I don't believe it was his fault....

We've had too many balls hit the hands of our receivers and bounce into a defensive players hands... Too much of that.

I have no idea if it would have made any difference in this last game, but anytime you have Landry, Bechham and Chubb on the same team, you have a chance....

Not all falls on Baker.

Vers, hows that for sticking with the Baker topic?

Yeah, a lot of his passes have either been high or behind the receivers and not out in front of them. Last year, he did a great job of leading his receivers into yards after the catch.

Do you think the extra muscle is an issue?

GM had a good post on that it is a plethora of issues.

Stop sugar coating this.

Baker is playing at Kizer level, and has regressed when he was supposed to improve in the off-season.

He has 2 of the best receivers in the game, who have made some amazing catches...

Baker strengths are his mental toughness,so lets see if he can get out of the slump and put his act together.

Many things can be done, and Kitchen can help, but lets not forget that its up to Baker to bounce back or be in way into oblivion.

Don't think Dorsey will put up with this much more time....

This. And he excelled using different trajectories and velocities. This year he has lost the trust you need to do that on a regular basis. That has resulted in him throwing the ball way too hard. On one hand that is because he's making the decision a split-second too late, on the other it is becoming habit. A habit that has also led to WRs deflecting balls for INTs.

I'll go back to TC once again, I won't look for the quotes, but it was obvious that the offense was a tough install. There were already leaks that Freddie wasn't happy with progress after "package three of eight". No OBJ, Jarvis missing a lot of time, Baker learning his third offense in less than a year. Then once the season starts - no Higgins, no Callaway and no Njoku. The result... a disjointed offense and a gun-shy QB.

With all that chaos and players still not on the same page, we add another package from the file folder "plays that work 2018". Unfortunately that leads to even more wrinkles as OBJ's eyes light up and Freddie (and Baker) feel the pressure to get him more involved.

And how to you explain his inaccuracy?

I think you are over analyzing this, Baker is playing bad at fundamental basic levels..

We are way far from having play books and game plans explain what has happened to Baker... he is just a bad QB right now.

My theory by the way, is that he is not a talented QB but he has the mental fortitude to elevate himself, providing he works in his craft.

When he started believing he was an elite QB and stopped putting on the work, he regressed... He has to go back to fundamentals, practice, watch film, and convince himself that he needs a stable platform to be effective, he does not have the tools to compensate for the lack of work...

Problem is that its just not Baker, most of the team looks unprepared and regressing, and that worries me more.

Also - Baker didn't get fat. Just like Freddie, Baker and our offense, as fans it seems we're grasping at straws. Baker changes his facial hair every 15 minutes. When he has a beard he looks skinny, when he's clean shaven he looks chubby... it's just his face lol. It tricked me as well. Then I saw him pull up his jersey coming out of the tunnel. Same exact abs and midsection. If he put on bad weight - the truth would be in the pudding, no pun intended. If he put on mass, I doubt it would have much to do with how hard he's throwing the ball. He's throwing the ball hard because he feels like he's processing too slow and doesn't have the same trust in his receivers. JMO

Uh oh...

He is the worst QB in the league right now,so in my eyes he is fat and chubby alright.

Once he gets back into a good level, I'll consider the jacked stuff....

No.

Plus he's not adding extra muscle, he's building strength.

There's a difference.

When season stopped... at least that's what it looks like...

Winning cures everything, but when you are losing all the little stuff emerges...

WE'RE ALL over analyzing - it's our job. I'm just mentioning some of the many layers that have led us to where we are. Mine hold the same worthless value as you saying he is fat and got lazy because he found success early. You just said he doesn't have all the tools? C'mon man!

I think Fate did a great job of explaining it. I also think GM did a great job.

I don't like it when some posters make excuse after excuse for him, but I don't think you are being fair, either. We've seen the good Baker and he did look a lot better against Seattle than he did against SF.

Btw----------he is NOT fat.

Was this asked by Kitchens, the QB coach, anyone in the team?

Where has he been doing this, and why would someone think its more important to be building strength than building a rapport with your receivers...

Sorry Vers,but his current playing level, his inaccuracy, when people were raving him from being able to lead the receivers...

He is all over the place this year, even the intermediate throws where he excelled last year.

Its not a minor regression, he went to be one of the best QB's to probably the worst QB in the league, and he has OBJ and Landry....

I don't like it, but I'm willing to give the guy some time, providing people stop with the excuses...Its on Baker to turn this around.

We are starting to ear stuff like trading OBJ, Kareem Hunt being a problem because we have to many weapons... This just to justify Baker...

You lost all credibility on any topic that is Baker by stating that he is playing "at Kizer" level.

I'm starting to think that Braylon was on to something about Browns fans who are also big Buckeye fans...hate on Michigan players or a player that embarrassed the Buckeyes on national TV...no matter that he plays for the Browns now.

There should be ZERO calls to bench Baker and ZERO calls to pick another QB in 2020. Look how long it took us to find a guy who is clearly NOT Kizer and has FQB written all over him.

We've seen Baker set or break rookie QB records. When the O is functioning - basically meaning no stupid penalties - he is still outstanding. He makes throws that have never been seen in a Browns uniform given the combination of strength, power, spin and accuracy. He's played about 20 games now in the 3rd scheme of his career...which...again...consists of about 20 games and only ONE meaningful training camp.

He's pressing...his mechanics sometimes breakdown...he's learning...he's inexperienced...teams have seen film...the entire O has been inconsistent (with the exception of Chubb) but when things are functioning on O, he's absolutely deadly... just like the last half of last year...re-watch the first half of the Seattle game...my goodness.

He can improve...there are ZERO indications that he cannot improve or will not work to improve...this guy is not a flash-in-the-pan...he is a team leader...no question.

The criticisms sometimes thrown at the kid are ridiculous. We've been waiting for this QB for 20 years...for this very kind of guy. Now we have him and people are expecting him to be Aaron Rodgers after 1.25 seasons worth of games...and bashing him when he's not there yet. Crazy.

His stats are Kizer level, but I agree that's a bit extreme.

I think Baker is coming off a pretty decent game to be honest with you. Not perfect, had some bad luck and bad breaks, but I thought most of the time he resembled the guy from last year.

I think he's going to be fine.

And he's mentally though... so I'm hopping for that too.

But with 2 of the best receivers in the game, QB has to be a major plus...

4th quarter was ugly , I think Kitchens can help, but helping is one thing taking the blame for poor QB play is another.

The problem is obvious!! Baker has a “noodle arm”. lol

The coach needs to help Baker and the team by remembering his number one priority is to win the game. Until his decisions line up with that as his foundation the team will continue to struggle to get wins.

He's too quick to want to display his offense, his play calling, and how smart he is. His explanation for the end of the first half on it's own was an egregious, fireable offense. On its own.

Freddie, your responsibility to the organization, the players, and the fanbase is to win the game. Don't lose sight of that.

I think he is throwing late. He is waiting on the receivers to be open enough. This bye week, if I am BM, i want to look hard at every pick and figure out why, because this is a crazy number of turnovers. Something isn't being addressed or is being looked at too casually IMO. And it is more of the same every week. We can be better.

It's pretty hard to have a good conversation on this topic. So many extremes. He's way better than Kizer and it's hard to imagine how anyone can't see that. On the other hand, it's hard to deny that he is not playing well.

The ESPN Game Day crew, which is hosted by Sam Ponder and has Tedy Bruchi, Matt Hassleback, Rex Ryan, Randy Moss, and Louis Reddick as analysts talked more about Baker prior to Sunday's game than anyone else. A graphic was put on the screen and Baker was last in Interceptions, Completion Percentage, and QBR. I went to a website that showed all the qb stats and he is at--or near--the bottom in almost every category.

I think it would be dumb to give up on him. I also think it would be dumb to think that he doesn't need to fix what ails him. I have some thoughts on how to go about that, but would like to hear from some of you about what you think needs to be done.

*Sorry for misspellings of the names and the clunky sentences.

I agree he is throwing late.

He and the receivers are also not 100% on the same page. Happens all the time in a new young offense.

We'll find out how bad we want to win after the bye week....

Based on the past, we'll be fine.

Well,I would say I'm being proved right... Just saying...

Its obvious that Baker does not have elite arm talent, and comparing to Mahomes and others... noodle arm isn't probably that far-fetched.

Baker needs a good platform to be effective,that is obvious. Still I don't think that's even the problem right now.

Im not sure why you would think Baker wasn't working with his receivers... and where are the videos of the 31 other quarterbacks working with their receivers.

He's allowed to work out.

Building strength is important.