Posted by Mike Florio on July 24, 2014, 6:51 PM EDT
For a guy who lived through the Mark Sanchez/Tim Tebow debacle in New York, Browns coach Mike Pettine doesn’t seem to be concerned about his quarterback competition in Cleveland becoming a potential two-man show. In fact, it looks like that’s what Pettine wants.
During his interview with Tony Grossi of ESPNCleveland.com, Pettine said that the team is considering using Manziel as a Wildcat-style change-of-pace in his rookie year.
“We’ve already talked about it,” Pettine said regarding the possibility of using both Manziel and Brian Hoyer in the same game. “We’ve already installed elements of it in the spring. We ran some of the zone-read stuff in practice and Kyle [Shanahan] incorporated some of the mobile quarterback elements of what he did in Washington. We’re still going to go back to the beginning in pads, but as we get going, some of the stuff that’s more game-plan-specific that we don’t want to show, we might work on in our walk-throughs as opposed to a public practice.”
Pettine wisely didn’t point to the Sanchez-Tebow experiment as justification for doing it.
“That’s how Colin Kaepernick got his start in the NFL, as a package quarterback,” Pettine said of the former 49ers backup. “On the other side of the ball, I’ve seen that give defenses some trouble. I think there’s positives and negatives to it. You’re taking your starter off the field. You have his rhythm and continuity to take into account, but at the same time defensively you’re now forcing a team to basically come up with two game plans. I mean, there are pluses and minuses to it and it’s something I’m sure will be discussed at some point.”
In theory, the Jets wanted Tebow because of the pressure that preparing for two quarterbacks puts on a defense. And if former offensive coordinator Tony Sporano had any faith at all in Tebow, the Jets may have actually used him.
The Jets and Pettine nevertheless got a first-hand look at the challenge of dealing with two quarterbacks in September 2012, when Kaepernick rushed five time for 50 yards and a touchdown coming off the bench and showing the Jets how to properly employ a two-quarterback system.
If the Browns could pull it off, the dilution of the ability of the opposing defense to fully prepare for each guy could help both guys thrive. The only downside is that, as Manziel has more and more success, more and more fans will be clamoring for him to be something other than a part-time player.
My two cents..I've always thought that the first NFL team to truly implement a two QB system if executed correctly, will dominate. Atleast for a few years until others catch on to it.
By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on July 25, 2014 at 11:34 AM, updated July 25, 2014 at 2:49 PM
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns have been 'alarmed' by some of Johnny Manziel's antics since the draft -- especially a photo of him rolling up a $20 bill in the bathroom of a bar -- and some in the organization feel he's lost ground in the quarterback competition heading into camp, sources have told Northeast Ohio Media Group.
After the suspicious photo of Manziel tightly rolling up the bill surfaced on July 7, Browns coach Mike Pettine called Manziel from his vacation in Hawaii and addressed it, he told NEOMG on Monday. The conversation was 'positive' but he also planned to talk to Manziel face-to-face when he arrived for the rookie portion of camp on Wednesday. Tightly-rolled bills are typically used to snort cocaine, and the Browns wanted some answers.
In fact, NFL chemical dependency consultant and former Browns team physician Dr. Gregory Collins of the Cleveland Clinic told NEOMG that such a photo would warrant a league inquiry and drug test to make sure the player is okay, even though it's not proof of use.
But it's not just that photo that has the Browns dismayed, the sources said.
Manziel regressed in practice after the first week of organized team activities, and some in the organization attributed it to too much jet-setting and not enough dedication to the playbook.
Team officials had bought into Manziel's pre-draft promises to tone down the partying and leave his frat-boy lifestyle back in College Station, Texas, and they've been stunned by his non-stop antics, sources said.
Since they traded up to draft him No. 1 overall on May 8, he's partied hard in New York City, Las Vegas twice, Los Angeles with hip-star Drake, Austin, Tex., Houston, Tex. and at pop star Justin Bieber's house in Beverly Hills with the likes of world boxing champ Floyd Mayweather.
The romp across the country -- complete with photos of him drinking magnums of champagne and spraying it around clubs -- has been completely opposite of what Manziel told the Browns during his private workout for them at Texas A&M and during his pre-draft visit to Cleveland. It's also been contrary to what he said publicly in the months leading up to the draft and after the Browns traded up to No. 22 to select him.
In an interview with John McLain of the Houston Chronicle in February, Manziel vowed to shed his Johnny Football personna and TMZ lifestyle.
"I was a kid who made some goofball decisions," he said. "That's been part of my journey. Maybe it's part of the whole Johnny Football deal that I'm trying to get away from. I'm trying to show people I've grown up and I've learned from my experiences. I feel like you're a stupid person if you continue to make the same wrong decisions. I don't want to hear, 'Oh, anybody in his situation would have been doing the same thing.' I'm 100 percent responsible for my actions."
He also said, "Johnny Football is the stuff you see on TMZ. There's part of that folktale that goes along with it and tries to twist me into somebody I'm not all the time. I feel like now there's kind of like this frozen food package - a prewrapped, precooked package of who I am.
"Johnny Manziel is the guy that - whether it's Houston, Jacksonville, Cleveland or Oakland - you'll have to drag off that field before I stop playing for those guys. Those are my teammates. Those are my brothers from now on. I'm going to fight until there's no time left on the clock. That's Johnny Manziel.''
That's the Johnny Manziel the Browns thought they were getting, the one that seemed to grow up before the world's eyes in the months leading up to the draft. Manziel's agent, Erik Burkhardt, shielded him from the spotlight during the pre-draft process, keeping him away from the Super Bowl festivities in New York City and sharply limiting his interviews. Meanwhile, Manziel spent his days and nights working out with quarterback guru and Massillon native George Whitfield in San Diego, where Whitfield honed his skills and improved his pocket presence considerably.
At his Pro Day at Texas A&M, Manziel re-iterated that he was a new man, dedicated to becoming a Super Bowl-winning quarterback.
"I just want to let these guys know that my focus is football. This is my life. This is what I love to do. I've never been more dedicated and committed in my entire life. I'm so excited. I understand the challenge and the jump. There's no denying that,'' he told NFL Network. "I want to be one of those (stars) one day. ...whether it's Peyton Manning, whether it's Tom Brady, I see what it takes for them to be great. You have to be dedicated to it 100 percent that way.''
And on draft weekend, Manziel vowed to keep his promise.
"I know I need to put all my time right now into maintaining my life in football and trying to be as good of a quarterback as possible,'' he said. "Everything else is extra and really there's no time for that now. I'm very committed to expanding my knowledge of the game and getting better as a quarterback. That's my focus right now.''
Two weeks later, he boarded a plane for Vegas over Memorial Day Weekend and the perpetual bachelor party was on.
Pettine remained unfazed through most of the twitter and Instagram posts, the inflatable swans, the money phones and the Bieber blowout, but became concerned -- along with everyone else in the organization -- when the bill-rolling photo landed. In addition to calling Manziel, Pettine got on the horn with some of Manziel's college coaches and was assured he'd buckle down once camp started.
"I know as committed he is to football, once the season starts, it should not be an issue,'' Pettine said. "People who know him have said it will stop.''
Impact on the quarterback competition
But as this week has worn on, Pettine seems to have changed his tune on the quarterback competition.
On Monday, he told cleveland.com that although Brian Hoyer is starting out No. 1 on the depth chart, he views the competition "as open'' and vowed to give Hoyer and Manziel reps with "the same supporting cast'' to make it as fair and even as possible.
By Wednesday afternoon, after meeting with offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan and quarterbacks coach Dowell Loggains, Pettine told a second wave of reporters in one-on-one interviews that Manziel wouldn't be getting reps with the first team offense during the early days of training camp, which begins Saturday.
"Well, they're going to compete, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to take equal time with the ones," Pettine told The Chronicle-Telegram. "Brian is the starting quarterback right now, we can still evaluate Johnny's reps regardless of who he's out there with. I think a lot will be made of, wait a minute, he hasn't been with the (ones). To me, it's something that we can still evaluate, give him a specific grade based on his footwork, how he called the play, what he read during that play — all the stuff that's in his control.
"It doesn't matter what group he's with, he's still getting graded. That'll be a big part of the evaluation, it won't be how he did when he was necessarily with a certain group."
Pettine, who will name his starter before the third preseason game Aug. 23, also cautioned that it will be tough for Manziel beat out Hoyer for the starting job.
"I would say it's a tall task, for a couple reasons," Pettine said. "One, he's a rookie coming in learning the system. It's not like (Miami's Ryan) Tannehill, who came in running his college system. He's learning something that's completely new to him, so he's got all new verbiage and reads and that type of thing working against him.
"And then the guy he's competing with is an NFL veteran who's learned from one of the best in the game, who's very prepared, very focused. It's a very true statement, it will be difficult."
Indeed, Hoyer, who's coming off a torn anterior cruciate ligament, has taken only five days off since returning from his October surgery and is determined to stave off the Heisman Trophy winner, who made a bold proclamation to the Houston Chronicle in February.
"People can call me crazy, and it's not cockiness, (but) I'm going to put myself in (position) to win the Super Bowl every single year," Manziel said. "A 5-10 guy (Russell Wilson) just won the Super Bowl in his second year in the NFL. That's unreal. I want to be the first rookie to win the Super Bowl."
Other sources have said it's still truly an open competition and no one knows how it will play out yet, in part because the club hasn't yet seen Hoyer operate in the new offense in 11-on-11s yet. However, he's been cleared for full action in camp, and the Browns want him to start catching up right away.
Don't bet against Manziel
A source close to Manziel said he's been working hard behind the scenes, bulking up some and even going back out to San Diego to work with Whitfield, who was recently hired as an assistant coach with the 49ers.
"People said all of this stuff about Johnny after he won the Heisman as a freshman, that he was out partying too much,'' said the source. "But he came back even stronger his second year and arguably played better against Alabama and other teams as a sophomore. He'll come into camp with the right mindset -- to be better tomorrow than he is today.''
The source said Manziel made huge strides from his first year to second year at Texas A&M and "he's got to be out there doing something right when the whole world's not watching to make those types of improvements. There are no stories around the weight room. The stories are when he's out with a rock star.
Whitfield, who's no longer allowed to speak at length about Manziel because he works for the 49ers, would at least allow that learning from Hoyer will be the best thing that happens to Manziel.
"Brian Hoyer is going to have a very big impact on Johnny learning how to be a professional,'' said Whitfield. "He's a blue-chip quarterback. Everything Johnny needs to learn from a true professional is there in Brian and Johnny's talked about that. He's learned from him already and what kind of example he sets. Every day he gets to go to work with and sit next to a guy that's done it in Brian.''
Sources said Manziel looked sharp on his first day of practice Thursday and had a good grasp of the plays being run, a sign that he's had his nose in the playbook. "People will see how hard Johnny works once this thing gets rolling,'' said a source. "He'll get more mature as he goes along. He's 21 and people want him to be 35. I would not count him out.''
Quote: Team officials had bought into Manziel's pre-draft promises to tone down the partying and leave his frat-boy lifestyle back in College Station, Texas, and they've been stunned by his non-stop antics, sources said.
yep. and then people wonder why BH has so much support.
Quote: Team officials had bought into Manziel's pre-draft promises to tone down the partying and leave his frat-boy lifestyle back in College Station, Texas, and they've been stunned by his non-stop antics, sources said.
yep. and then people wonder why BH has so much support.
Yep ...Neither has anything to do with the topic about implementing a 2 QB system tho.
Quote: Since they traded up to draft him No. 1 overall on May 8, he's partied hard in New York City, Las Vegas twice, Los Angeles with hip-star Drake, Austin, Tex., Houston, Tex. and at pop star Justin Bieber's house in Beverly Hills with the likes of world boxing champ Floyd Mayweather.
Is Mary Kay sure she's writing about Manziel or someone else?
Quote: Manziel regressed in practice after the first week of organized team activities, and some in the organization attributed it to too much jet-setting and not enough dedication to the playbook.
That is a concern. Hopefully it will teach Manziel that he has to stay in his playbook year round in order to become, and stay a starting QB in the NFL. He's not going to get by on talent alone.
The Browns knew or, should have known what they were getting when they drafted Manziel. Mary Kay being complicit in a piece suggesting that the team was duped by Manziel is disingenuous at the least and/or the work of a simpleton.
After Pettine and Shanahan were asked repeatedly over the past few weeks about the status of the competition and in quotes each of them stating that at this point the competition is inconclusive, somebody is lying. Either the coaches or MKC. The coaches both gave the impression that the competition hasn't started in earnest.
If Mary Kay is talking to non-football sources they need to return to the same media discipline the organization showed leading up to the draft.
I see this article as a warning shot from the FO to Johnny before camp begins. They knew what they were getting back in May ... they sold their tickets and uniforms, but now they're warning Manziel while also protecting themselves from public backlash when Hoyer gets all the playing time
Quote: Manziel regressed in practice after the first week of organized team activities, and some in the organization attributed it to too much jet-setting and not enough dedication to the playbook.
That is a concern. Hopefully it will teach Manziel that he has to stay in his playbook year round in order to become, and stay a starting QB in the NFL. He's not going to get by on talent alone.
What I can't figure out is isn't today the 1st day of camp? How are they saying he's regressed since minicamp if they only just reported today?
That is a plausible explanation. My problem with it is that trying to get JFF to conform could have been avoided by drafting a different player. The media spectacle that is JFF has yet to relent, not when he was at Texas A&M, not following the Manning Camp incident, not in regard to the autograph-for-cash controversy, not for the Swan Dive or any Champaign showers.
The team keeps drawing comparisons to the Seahawks then maybe they should make room for free spirits. If they really don't want to then don't put them on the roster.
Quote: Manziel regressed in practice after the first week of organized team activities, and some in the organization attributed it to too much jet-setting and not enough dedication to the playbook.
That is a concern. Hopefully it will teach Manziel that he has to stay in his playbook year round in order to become, and stay a starting QB in the NFL. He's not going to get by on talent alone.
What I can't figure out is isn't today the 1st day of camp? How are they saying he's regressed since minicamp if they only just reported today?
There was a minicamp, then a series of OTAs. What she is saying is that some feel that he regressed from rookie minicamp to the OTAs.
If the Browns were so concerned about Manziel why draft him?
His off field exploits were well documented.
The old adage is: "actions speak louder than words".
" past actions forecast future actions."
I hope he gets his act together and becomes more than another wasted first round quarterback pick.
I understand your point but the article did address that. Johnny Football not only stated that he had changed, but had shown that he had stayed out of the media spotlight for some time leading up to the draft. That he was young but had learned from his mistakes.
I have no idea how accurate that article is or who her sources were. But if I had signed a kid to a 6 mil. + contract, there would be a certain amount of concern on my part.
Sources said Manziel looked sharp on his first day of practice Thursday and had a good grasp of the plays being run, a sign that he's had his nose in the playbook. (end)
At least one positive thing in the article... maybe a glimmer of hope ?
That's weird I think I read every article on our Mini camps and this is the first I'm hearing about - JM regressing in his play??? I've heard of a bad day and then recovery the next practice stuff like that.
Bozo's are ridiculous.
Also on ESPN Radio NY I heard one of the Jockeys most of their names are Mike. State he's wants to know if the Browns sell out Training camp Practice because of JM...I'm not a local but don't we sell out all of them in the past??? Or can they even have a sell out? They just pack em in? JMH?
hawkins talked about how hard Manziel worked when he was in the gym. Guys were talking about Manziel making no mistakes. Pettine sounded impressed with Johny's absorbition of the plays. Yet noone will want to talk about those things.
Everyone grab a mic and point out how wrong Johny Manziel is for being a celebrity during the dead zone. I have seen a whole lot of boyscouts come in here go to children's hospitals, spend friday nights at church and help old ladies cross the street and were helped out the door because they sucked on Sunday.
I will be honest, what he did in the deadzone was blow off a little steam and he just did it with playboy bunnies and Lebron instead of with joebob on the back porch. I think he can prioritize now that its time to nut up.
Quote: but don't we sell out all of them in the past??? Or can they even have a sell out? They just pack em in?
Last year we just showed up and walked in....we went to a few of them. It didn't seem overcrowded or anything, I was able to get great pics and my son got plenty of autographs.. I don't think we'll go this year, it seems like it's going to be a circus.
Johnny Manziel: 'I made some rookie mistakes' By Dan Hanzus Around the League Writer
Johnny Manziel knew the questions were coming. His solution in his first training camp press conference with the Cleveland Browns was to address the situation himself in his opening remarks.
"Me and coach Pettine and Ray Farmer really talked about a lot of things that transpired over the course of the offseason," Manziel said Friday. "The main thing is people within this building, my teammates, the coaching staff, the higher-ups in this organization -- we've all been on the same page, we've all been good and we're very eager to be moving forward."
"At the end of the day, I've made some rookie mistakes, there's some things I wish I could have gone back and done a little differently, but continuing to move forward and try to represent this organization in a positive manner and a positive light."
Manziel wouldn't get off that easy, of course. His first question was in reference to a photo of Manziel in which the quarterback appears to be rolling up a $20 bill in a bathroom.
"I just spoke on that a little bit," Manziel replied. "I've talked about that with that coach Pettine, I've talked about it with Ray Farmer and the people I need to talk about that with and moving forward they're good with everything and I've told them everything that I need to and everything's been good."
Manziel acknowledged "rookie mistakes," but still defended his right to enjoy himself during his free time.
"I don't think there's anything wrong with me going out and having a nightlife and having a social life," he said. "I am 21 years old, and I do like going out. It was the offseason, free time for us, and if I want to go out, hang out with my friends or go to nightclubs or do things like that, I think that's within my rights to be doing that."
Manziel added that he doesn't view himself as an underdog in his summer competition with veteran Brian Hoyer and believes there's enough time to win the starting job out of camp. Pettine reiterated on Friday that Hoyer will start the preseason opener barring an unforeseen setback.
Pettine said earlier in the week that the Browns will name their starter before the team's third preseason game. Manziel has less than a month to make his case.
I have to get this in...................I know I just defended Manziel, but while searching the web for football news this morning, I came across news on how well Teddy Bridgewater is doing in Minnesota. He was my guy all along. Teddy is impressing everyone w/his leadership, intelligence, and ARM. He is winning over the team and coaching staff. Meanwhile, our QB is making headlines for reasons other than football.
Teddy sucks at throwing in AFC North winter weather. Johnny Football remains an unproven commodity; who knows if his game will even translate to this league? Pick your poison.
Also, it's the 1st few days of training camp, Bridgewater is from a pro style background, and is throwing largely against air, without a pass rush at all at this point.
At this point last year, ESPN and many others (myself included ) thought that Weeden had turned a corner. It's way too early to know how Bridgewater, or Manziel, will go yet.
I notice he doesn't want to share what that rolled 20 was about. Sigh.
All I seem to read is a me first QB justifying his bad habits. I really don't think he has the mentality it takes to make it in the NFL at this rate. It takes a lot more than showing up for practice and occasionally hitting the playbook.
He reminds of me of kids who never have to study and everything comes easy to them. Then they hit a wall and get shattered on it. You never know if they will put themselves together afterwards or not. IMHO he needs a good dose of humble pie and should sit the entire year, barring injury. He needs to learn what it takes for even a shot to be a NFL QB cause college is where boys play. The NFL is where the MEN play.
Browns' Johnny Manziel: 'I've made some rookie mistakes, I'm not in college anymore'
Coach Pettine re-iterated that it will be 'very difficult' for Manziel to win the job, but that he's ahead of where they expected in the playbook. He said the staff has been very pleased with Manziel's attention to detail and knowledge and conditioning.
"He's very focused,'' said Pettine. "That's already shown up by the way he attacked his conditioning test and how he's been on the field and in the meeting rooms these past couple of days.''
He added that Manziel's biggest battle will be between him and the playbook and not between him and Hoyer.
"I interpret it exactly the way he said it,'' Manziel said. "It's not two short little plays anymore. You have a lot to a play call, you have a lot to read, you have a lot of different things that weren't asked of me at (Texas) A&M. You have to deal with protections, deal with certain things and moving forward, yeah I have to adapt to that. I have to get better and continue to learn the game of football more and more. I'm not sitting up here today saying I know everything or I'm even close to perfecting this thing. I'm still a young guy, a young player and there's a lot to learn and a lot for me to do moving forward.''
Cleveland Browns' Brian Hoyer: 'I expect to be the starting quarterback'
He re-iterated that it will be very difficult for Manziel to overtake the seasoned veteran, one who learned from Tom Brady for three seasons in New England.
"I just think that given the circumstances with him being a rookie, it's difficult for a lot of rookies to come in and win a job when there's a guy that's ahead of them that the team has a good feeling about,'' said Pettine. "I made the comment that it's him against the playbook, but that's true of most rookies. We're very pleased with where he is with the playbook.
"He's probably ahead of where we figured he would be, but that's still a tough thing coming from a system where three words called the play. Now it's 10, 11, 12 words calling it, and then to be able to process all that information in a shorter period of time, that's really the challenge for somebody that's new, just getting used to the speed of the game. If we jump in a car and ride 200 miles an hour, we're probably going to drive off the road, but once you train to do it and you get used to it, everything slows down for you.''
Quote: I have to get this in...................I know I just defended Manziel, but while searching the web for football news this morning, I came across news on how well Teddy Bridgewater is doing in Minnesota. He was my guy all along. Teddy is impressing everyone w/his leadership, intelligence, and ARM. He is winning over the team and coaching staff. Meanwhile, our QB is making headlines for reasons other than football.
Quote: hawkins talked about how hard Manziel worked when he was in the gym. Guys were talking about Manziel making no mistakes. Pettine sounded impressed with Johny's absorbition of the plays. Yet noone will want to talk about those things.
Everyone grab a mic and point out how wrong Johny Manziel is for being a celebrity during the dead zone. I have seen a whole lot of boyscouts come in here go to children's hospitals, spend friday nights at church and help old ladies cross the street and were helped out the door because they sucked on Sunday.
I will be honest, what he did in the deadzone was blow off a little steam and he just did it with playboy bunnies and Lebron instead of with joebob on the back porch. I think he can prioritize now that its time to nut up.
All of that may be true but in the end-of-the-day evaluation by the people deciding whether he plays or not, it will probably hurt his chances. And, the reports that the team believes that he has regressed after the first week of OTAs should be concerning to everyone.
Quote: I have to get this in...................I know I just defended Manziel, but while searching the web for football news this morning, I came across news on how well Teddy Bridgewater is doing in Minnesota. He was my guy all along. Teddy is impressing everyone w/his leadership, intelligence, and ARM. He is winning over the team and coaching staff. Meanwhile, our QB is making headlines for reasons other than football.
You'll wish you hadn't written this when it comes down to brass tacks. You'll be reminded of them.
Quote: Also, it's the 1st few days of training camp, Bridgewater is from a pro style background, and is throwing largely against air, without a pass rush at all at this point.
At this point last year, ESPN and many others (myself included ) thought that Weeden had turned a corner. It's way too early to know how Bridgewater, or Manziel, will go yet.
You can never know how things will go with rookies. For that matter, you can't know how it will go with veterans either.
I want it on the record that I never thought that Weeden had turned a corner. I was more optimistic about Chudzinski after the Shurmur disaster. The Chudzinski Experiment blew up in our faces.
Quote: I notice he doesn't want to share what that rolled 20 was about. Sigh.
All I seem to read is a me first QB justifying his bad habits. I really don't think he has the mentality it takes to make it in the NFL at this rate. It takes a lot more than showing up for practice and occasionally hitting the playbook.
He reminds of me of kids who never have to study and everything comes easy to them. Then they hit a wall and get shattered on it. You never know if they will put themselves together afterwards or not. IMHO he needs a good dose of humble pie and should sit the entire year, barring injury. He needs to learn what it takes for even a shot to be a NFL QB cause college is where boys play. The NFL is where the MEN play.
I agree that Manziel seems to be lacking the mental make-up to be an NFL starting QB. Maybe that will change between now and the beginning of the season, but judging from his comments, I don't think so.
j/c... Teddy, Does well, Busts, I can care less. I care what JM does. I thought Teddy was the #1 pick in this draft. The only negative was his grip on the ball. I was shocked he lasted as long as he did. In lieu of all that.
I still see no wrong done by JM...they had OFF, the first time he asked if it was ok to go to Vegas with friends. We gave him the ok to do as he pleased as long as he didn't get in trouble.
I don't see anything he did wrong except he has to live with the notoriety, everything I read about him in Texas it was that way, so he became comfortable with the pics and the constant following of all he did. So at 21 and now legally allowed to drink he is having fun. You know like that "ONE" pic of ELI MANNING totally wasted, I have yet to see that look on JM you know the look, the one you see right before your friend barfs all over the place! Would I rather have him sitting home playing Madden...yeah I guess if he was my son. Then again I would hope that I brought him up right and he should have fun at 21. Just don't do anything wrong.
The roll up thing. I still say, where is the drugs. Every move he made he was followed with anyone seeing anything tweeting. Well where is the tweet - Saw Johnny Football snorting - where? Who knows maybe he was mocking all and rolling that up. I am not naive I know what rolled up bills is for but where did he have the opportunity to participate? When...in his room upstairs later.....who rolls a bill for something you are going to do an hour later in private?
Especially this bs about the "BROWNS" from the infamous "sources" think he digressed as camps went on??? You mean he was getting into the playbook and thinking about things more you know...Learning?
The Browns have a QB who is ready to play in the NFL and his name is Hoyer. Vikings got a lot of guys who had their shot and could get beat by Teddy. I hope he does well he is a good kid. I have no regrets taking JM. I wanted Teddy as well thought we had no shot at him cause he would go overall #1. Then the grip thing came and I studied him. Technique is great - but bad throws. I summarized that in our Get the job done months of Nov. & Dec. he might have a slippage problem, even with the gloves. Vikings are outdoors, don't know if they got the wind we do by the lake but I had visions of dang, who was that decent QB in Seattle with the small hands that he had his slips and loads of fumbles. Very accurate was good except for the many many turnovers almost all coming from losing his grip.
After the Heisman, we heard a lot of the same crap about JM, partying this, doing that. Then when Camps started and the season came, we heard nothing. He was all football.
Well we are seeing the same thing. Its the off season this time he is legal to drink - he has made friends with some famous people and he is a bigger figure than even before. People want to buy him drinks, girls want to take pics with him.
Now its time to go to work, and he has always rolled up his sleeves and put in his 100% - I expect nothing different. Hoyer is without a doubt ready, 2014 is his TIME! We will see what he does with it. I wish we would sign him to a 3 year contract cause he might ball out and we won't be able to cash in...just like Chargers lost Brees, without any compensation. I would at least like to Trade Hoyer if we had no need of him...but I would probably ride the horse till it can go anymore!
For the first time, I think we have a legit QB staff on our team...first time in a long time and first since 1999 that is for sure.
Quote: ... I think we have a legit QB staff on our team...
Well we know who the first two QB's will be in the pecking order, but who will grab the 3rd spot (assuming we keep 3)? Should be very interesting to see whether it's Shaw or Thigpen...
Quote: I notice he doesn't want to share what that rolled 20 was about. Sigh.
All I seem to read is a me first QB justifying his bad habits. I really don't think he has the mentality it takes to make it in the NFL at this rate. It takes a lot more than showing up for practice and occasionally hitting the playbook.
He reminds of me of kids who never have to study and everything comes easy to them. Then they hit a wall and get shattered on it. You never know if they will put themselves together afterwards or not. IMHO he needs a good dose of humble pie and should sit the entire year, barring injury. He needs to learn what it takes for even a shot to be a NFL QB cause college is where boys play. The NFL is where the MEN play.
I'm of the belief that not winning the starting role is a good thing for the team and for Manziel. Nothing wrong with gaining maturity and experience while sitting on the sideline learning from a pro. With this kid's type A make up, playing second fiddle should be a massive motivator.
Quote: Especially this bs about the "BROWNS" from the infamous "sources" think he digressed as camps went on??? You mean he was getting into the playbook and thinking about things more you know...Learning?
Like I said earlier, it was as if that one article was actually two articles. It contradicted itself. The beginning was about he digressed and the end was about how made strides and had his nose in the playbook. LOL........amazing.
rookie QB regressing in mini camp, stop the presses lol. I dont know if they were ignorant of the fact that teams try to overload their rookies at the end of minicamp or just wanted to sensationalize the story but it was pretty funny.
Quote: Especially this bs about the "BROWNS" from the infamous "sources" think he digressed as camps went on??? You mean he was getting into the playbook and thinking about things more you know...Learning?
Like I said earlier, it was as if that one article was actually two articles. It contradicted itself. The beginning was about he digressed and the end was about how made strides and had his nose in the playbook. LOL........amazing.
digressed = regressed?
I know you just replied to a quote ...... but that one really made my skin crawl for some reason ...... and I have lived through a decade plus of "there, they're, their".
It is hard to know who is doing what at this stage. The sense I get from Pettine is that he would have said something if Manziel was behind where they expected him to be. He just strikes me as that kind of coach,
One thing that I have noticed about Manziel and no one really talks about is that I think he is an intelligent man. I don't know how book smart he is, but he seems to be one of those guys who can figure things out easily. I think he processes information quickly. That was evident when Gruden interviewed him.
He also has that innate confidence in himself that is very rare. I don't think it is contrived to cover up weaknesses or displayed because the world expects us to be confident. I think the guy is truly confident and it gives him a maturity [in certain areas] that serves him well in manly pursuits like football.
I think it would be foolish to not take this kid's chance at greatness seriously.
JM needs to grow up which I believe he will. Of course Hoyer is the starter for now because he's the one with NFL experience. It also means the Browns didn't make a mistake in drafting JM. It means the vet has the advantage. Nothing shocking about that!
I believe JM will win the starting job eventually. The question is will he be able to run like he did in college? His first test will be aganist the Lions, a team with a good DL but bad secondary.
Quote: It seems to me that article's main objective is to continue the JF controversy on a high level.
Personally I think Manzel is doing fine. Will he be ready to be the starter? I don't know. I doubt it. But there's no disgrace in that.
Agreed.
I find it interesting how much press Manziel gets...........it's like the press is just waiting for photo op. He's definitely getting pub. And that makes me wonder "why"?
Yeah, I read that article this morning and was thinking of posting it, but it was so slanted that I chose not to. Not saying 3rd and 20 shouldn't have posted it, but I think the article is very one sided and designed to criticize Manziel.
Highest jersey sales, the press is going to follow him regardless. He's like a Tebow circus. I think Pettine and company have handled it as good as they possible can.
I know I'm a little burnt out about hearing about him. He's not even thrown one NFL pass and it's like he's Peyton Manning or someone.
Quote: Highest jersey sales, the press is going to follow him regardless. He's like a Tebow circus. I think Pettine and company have handled it as good as they possible can.
I know I'm a little burnt out about hearing about him. He's not even thrown one NFL pass and it's like he's Peyton Manning or someone.
Ray Farmer & Mike Pettine knew it when they drafted him. I wonder if the media circus that follows him is part of the reason that he fell to #22.
I mean, the Cowboys had them ranked as their top player when they were on the clock but passed. Too attention-grabbing for Jerry Jones? Really?
I don't dislike Manziel, but I'm going to be perfectly frank, I would have rather had some other players instead of him. That's all water under the bridge though.
I think people would be shocked at just how many players spend their time exactly as Manziel has during the offseason. I follow Darnell Dockett on Twitter, that dude is at a strip club every weekend.
The difference? Docket doesn't generate Website clicks and retweets.
The only thing that concerns me about Manziel is his size. I think he is going to prove to be the best QB we've drafted since our return, which isn't saying much, but I like him and don't think all this offseason stuff is going to matter in the long run.
THE WORK: Wednesday was not a particularly good day for either quarterback, as the defense responded to prodding from head coach Mike Pettine to produce a much more lively, active and chippy practice. That beings said, Manziel has not shown the spark in practice that produced the glittering numbers in college. Any neutral observer who has watched practice has left with the impression that Brian Hoyer is far ahead in the quarterback competition. Manziel has taken steps, but none strong enough to firmly take the job. He looks like a rookie learning an offense and struggling as he goes -- while usually facing the second-team defense.
GOOD THROW: This was a defensive day, with the defense playing aggressive and with energy. The offense did not match that energy, Manziel among them. To say he did not have a good throw probably isn’t fair; coach’s film could probably find one. But there was not one single throw that jumped out live. He did complete a lot of passes in five-on-five (mainly short), when the team drills took place he struggled.
BAD THROW: It might have been a sack live because Manziel stepped up to avoid a rush. But when he stepped up, he had a chance to complete a throw. Instead, he sailed it well over the receiver’s head and into the hands of Jordan Poyer, who would have had a clear path to the end had the pick been in a game.
THE WORD: “I don’t react to that because I want to know the why.” – coach Mike Pettine on how he reacts to interceptions thrown in practice.START
CHART: On a 1-to-10 scale, with 10 being Manziel certainly starts the opener -- Manziel started with a 3, dropped to a 1, went back to a 3 and Tuesday moves to a 2.
Quote: CHART: On a 1-to-10 scale, with 10 being Manziel certainly starts the opener -- Manziel started with a 3, dropped to a 1, went back to a 3 and Tuesday moves to a 2.
J/C Reed may need to eat his words someday. But who really cares. Besides Buffalo has the worse fans in football when traveling to other NFL stadiums. Now they can take their crap to Toronto as well
I absolutely do not want a long time and storied franchise like the Bills moving away.
They have never really been a top team in terms of attendance, but they have routinely put 62-70K fans in the seats per game for the past 5 or so years. They support their team, and don't deserve to have it taken from them.
Quote: I absolutely do not want a long time and storied franchise like the Bills moving away.
They have never really been a top team in terms of attendance, but they have routinely put 62-70K fans in the seats per game for the past 5 or so years. They support their team, and don't deserve to have it taken from them.
Quote: I absolutely do not want a long time and storied franchise like the Bills moving away.
They have never really been a top team in terms of attendance, but they have routinely put 62-70K fans in the seats per game for the past 5 or so years. They support their team, and don't deserve to have it taken from them.
+1, they voted against our move. I expect us to do the same exact thing.
It's got nothing to do with attendance, much more to do with TV Money and possibly stadium quality. But the stadium is being renovated, so I would assume TV Money. And that is about as lame as it can be
Now, there will probably be one moving to LA within a year or two. Jacksonville is a good candidate but they would have to restructure the divisions to make it work. Las Vegas could also be in line for a team at some point although that might cause some crowding in the West.
The logistics of any team moving to london, yikes. You think Houston wants to fly to London? Then fly to Say, San Diego to play the next week?
I don't see how a London team will ever work.
The only way i see it is to maybe have them open on the road for the first 3 weeks, and stay over here, then go home for 3-4 weeks. The teams that go over there to play then have their bye week. Then repeat a similar cycle the rest of the season.
The logistics of any team moving to london, yikes. You think Houston wants to fly to London? Then fly to Say, San Diego to play the next week?
I don't see how a London team will ever work.
The only way i see it is to maybe have them open on the road for the first 3 weeks, and stay over here, then go home for 3-4 weeks. The teams that go over there to play then have their bye week. Then repeat a similar cycle the rest of the season.
That sounds like a disaster. That's like a 8 hour flight from NEW YORK! Much less (lets say it is Jacksonville) Indy, Tennessee or Houston. Then like i said, they are in the AFC, what happens when they play Oakland or San Diego? If I am a free agent, no way I am moving to London to play and as soon as anyone can offer me a similar contract, I'm moving back to the states.
Quote: I absolutely do not want a long time and storied franchise like the Bills moving away.
They have never really been a top team in terms of attendance, but they have routinely put 62-70K fans in the seats per game for the past 5 or so years. They support their team, and don't deserve to have it taken from them.
I'm so torn on this, because Toronto is just one hour away. I'm not sure how I would feel if Cleveland would have moved to Columbus instead of Baltimore, but I feel like it'd be a lot more acceptable.
The "He's farther ahead in the playbook than we'd thought he'd be" and "we'll mix it up for first team reps" quotes are starting to surface....
Eh, I dunno about that.
Quote: On Johnny Manziel's early struggles, and other observations after Week 1 of Browns training camp
Checkpoint No. 1: There are different checkpoints in a training camp and we reached the first one with the Browns’ first off day on Wednesday. When players return on Thursday, they’ll get their first taste of live tackling as intensity inches closer to game-ready.
Here is what we have observed so far:
1. Johnny update: Coach Mike Pettine told me before training camp started that coaches would evaluate Johnny Manziel through the first four days and decide whether he earned first-team reps. The numbers tabulated each day by ESPNCleveland’s Jason Gibbs have not been pretty. Gibbs has charted all plays in 7 on 7 and team drills. Unofficially, Manziel has completed 42 of 85 passes (49.4 percent). He has been “sacked” two times officially. Two other obvious sacks were waved off and resulted in Manziel interceptions. There has been one other interception, four keeper runs by Manziel and three plays aborted by general confusion. Manziel’s only touchdown pass came on a little flip to fullback Ray Agnew off a bootleg. It’s too early to draw conclusions. But it’s nearly impossible to make the case that Manziel has earned first-team reps.
2. Fiercest competition: I love the dynamic at running back. Ben Tate talking tough, rookie Terrance West not backing down. The other backs – Chris Ogbonnaya, Isaiah Crowell, Dion Lewis, Edwin Baker – all fighting for perhaps one roster spot. This is the fiercest competition of any position group. Tate’s edginess is more than just talk. He is starting to remind me of the back who wore his No. 44 in a different era and became the heart and soul of the Browns’ turnaround in the 1980s – Earnest Byner. Tate is much more talented as a runner and seems to have Byner’s, well, earnestness to change the culture of the team from losing to winning. This will be the most improved position group from a year ago.
3. Out of the shadow: Top pick Justin Gilbert affably played second fiddle to Manziel off the field in the weeks after the draft. On the field, Gilbert has showed why he was the team’s top pick. Gilbert looks bigger on the field than his listed measurements of 6-0 and 202 pounds. His athleticism has not been exaggerated. When running with the ball on kickoff returns, he looks like an offensive playmaker gliding through running lanes. Gilbert should be promoted to the first-team defense soon, which would be no knock on Buster Skrine, who continues to improve each year. I’d like to see Skrine moved inside now to have ample time to perfect what is one of the most important positions on the defense. Gilbert has physical skills that not even Joe Haden possesses. There is no doubt in my mind he will start from Day 1.
4. Receiver alert: Slot receiver Andrew Hawkins has been a consistent performer, showing good hands, pinpoint route-running, darting quickness and a work ethic and energy that is infectious. He will be a dependable target for Brian Hoyer. That said, there is nobody out there – besides Josh Gordon – who is going to scare any defense. Nate Burleson, Miles Austin, Anthony Armstrong … none has proved in recent years he can even stay on a field, much less shine on it. Of the rest, Charles Johnson is an engaging and intriguing prospect and has the best athletic skills, but I question whether he can make an impact early. If Gordon somehow beats the rap and does play at all this season, it will make all the other receivers better. Otherwise, this position is still a major concern.
5. Rube awakening: With Phil Taylor still not practicing, Pettine and the coaches have gotten some good looks at Ahtyba Rubin at nose tackle – the position at which he broke into the NFL with the Browns in 2008. Pettine commented on Tuesday, “He’s as good as I’ve had in this system as far as his technique in defending the run.” Rubin has impressed the coaches with his work in the inside run drills. Rubin made an interesting comment on Tuesday, saying “(I’m trying to) let everyone know I’m here and I’m not going anywhere.” That was an apparent reference to frequent speculation that Rubin might be used as trade bait because of the surplus at defensive line. Rubin is in the last year of his contract and carries the fifth-highest salary cap figure ($8.175 million) on the team, but he embodies Pettine’s “play like a Brown” mantra as well as anyone.
6. Quick hits: I’m a little surprised there is no extra punter or kicker, not for competition but to avoid overtaxing the legs of Spencer Lanning and Billy Cundiff … Rookie Joel Bitonio is rock solid at left guard … rookie Chris Kirksey has been very active in the run and pass defense … tight end Jordan Cameron is going to have a bigger year than last season … linebacker Barkevious Mingo looks bigger and much more confident … I interpret the addition of safety Jim Leonhard as Pettine having the roster spot to give a player he truly likes some opportunities on tape to audition for other teams.
They have never really been a top team in terms of attendance, but they have routinely put 62-70K fans in the seats per game for the past 5 or so years. They support their team, and don't deserve to have it taken from them.
Everyone here knows that. We didn't deserve it either.
Unless the team is under contract with the previous owners, or with the city to keep the franchise in the area, all any owner needs to do is get NFL approval and it's done. Boom! Buh Bye Bills. It has little to do with how loyal their fans are.
They have never really been a top team in terms of attendance, but they have routinely put 62-70K fans in the seats per game for the past 5 or so years. They support their team, and don't deserve to have it taken from them.
Everyone here knows that. We didn't deserve it either.
Unless the team is under contract with the previous owners, or with the city to keep the franchise in the area, all any owner needs to do is get NFL approval and it's done. Boom! Buh Bye Bills. It has little to do with how loyal their fans are.
I understand the reality of the business side of things (all too well) .... but it sucks that a fanbase can be loyal, support their team even when they flat out suck, and still lose their team. How many years has it been since the Bills made the playoffs? 14? 15? I can't remember, but I know that it's been over a decade. The fans still support them though. They don't deserve to have their team taken away from them. It makes me sick that they could lose their team. They barely drew 50,000 fans in Toronto over the years, to boot ........ and only 38K last year. Yea Canada!
Quote: have you been on twitter in the last five minutes? Pettine's being interviewed now.
Sounds like Manziel played well today. Before TC I thought he would win the job outright. Those stats though, 49% isn't even close to being ready.
His head has still been spinning. This is a guy learning his 1st playbook. He has never played under Center. He has never had multiple reads on both sides of the field. He is going to struggle at first.
I am not willing to say that he'll ever et it, or that he'll definitely fail. Like I said when he was drafted .... it was a worthwhile risk, and we still have assets to use next year if we find that we still need a QB then.
Quote: have you been on twitter in the last five minutes? Pettine's being interviewed now.
Sounds like Manziel played well today. Before TC I thought he would win the job outright. Those stats though, 49% isn't even close to being ready.
His head has still been spinning. This is a guy learning his 1st playbook. He has never played under Center. He has never had multiple reads on both sides of the field. He is going to struggle at first.
I am not willing to say that he'll ever et it, or that he'll definitely fail. Like I said when he was drafted .... it was a worthwhile risk, and we still have assets to use next year if we find that we still need a QB then.
Seeing as he isn't getting 1st team reps I think some of those 'stats' have to be taken with a grain of salt without actually seeing what all happened in each of those plays. (drops, blown assignments, etc)
Quote: have you been on twitter in the last five minutes? Pettine's being interviewed now.
Sounds like Manziel played well today. Before TC I thought he would win the job outright. Those stats though, 49% isn't even close to being ready.
His head has still been spinning. This is a guy learning his 1st playbook. He has never played under Center. He has never had multiple reads on both sides of the field. He is going to struggle at first.
I am not willing to say that he'll ever et it, or that he'll definitely fail. Like I said when he was drafted .... it was a worthwhile risk, and we still have assets to use next year if we find that we still need a QB then.
Seeing as he isn't getting 1st team reps I think some of those 'stats' have to be taken with a grain of salt without actually seeing what all happened in each of those plays. (drops, blown assignments, etc)
There is probably some of that as well. Good point.
Quote: Seeing as he isn't getting 1st team reps I think some of those 'stats' have to be taken with a grain of salt without actually seeing what all happened in each of those plays. (drops, blown assignments, etc)
While those are valid points, on the flip side he's throwing against and playing against a weaker, slower secondary and D front 7.
With an entire new playbook and O scheme, I believe as it pertains to the O, your point about blown assignments could just as easily apply to the first team as well.
Except the D is always ahead of the O. Front 7 is talented in 3rd n 2nd units....not the OL. Just like CBs drop in 2nd n 3rd to WR...but the LOS is much more important than WRs
Its about what i figured it would be at this pooint. I felt Hoyer would look decent but not great and Manziel would struggle through the first few days but begin showing improvement. When he is rolling out, and lets face it this is a major element of Shannahan's system, he is fantastic. When is is out there throwing on the run, he is comfortable the other stuff will come with the more reps he gets.
I think he will perform equal to Hoyer at the scrimmage with one or 2 wow moments and then really shine in those preseason games. I still feel certain that Manziel will be the starter on opening day. We may not let him throw it 10 times that day, but I think he will start.
Kyle Shanahan says neither Brian Hoyer nor Johnny Manziel 'is further in front' in Cleveland Browns' QB battle
Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group Follow on Twitter on July 31, 2014 at 1:36 PM, updated July 31, 2014 at 3:28 PM Cleveland Browns 2014
BEREA, Ohio -- Browns offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan said he sees the quarterback competition between Brian Hoyer and Johnny Manziel as even right now, despite the fact Hoyer has been taking all of the first-team reps.
What's more, Manziel will be taking some first-team reps soon.
"I don't think one's any further in front than the other,'' Shanahan said Thursday after the fifth day of training camp. "I think they've both done a good job. As far as these five practices, usually one day one guy is ahead of the other, and the next day the other guy does the better job.
"I think it's been back and forth. It's something I don't try to evaluate every day. It usually plays out. Hopefully as these preseason games go, as these practices go, I hope one of them will make the decision easy on us. One of them will just take off and start playing really well, and usually the answer becomes really easy."
Shanahan echoed coach Mike Pettine's sentiments that the club will start to give Manziel some first-team reps soon. For the first five days, he's worked almost exclusively with the second-team offense.
"We'll eventually work him in with the first o-line, and I'm sure you guys will see that sooner than later,'' said Shanahan.
Pettine also said Thursday "it's a knee-jerk reaction'' to think Hoyer will start the first game just because he's taking all the first-team reps right now.
Shanahan said he knows he has to be patient with the quarterback competition because both players are new to the scheme.
"You've got a rookie quarterback trying to learn the new offense,'' he said. "You've also got another quarterback who's not a rookie, but it's a new offense for him also. They're both trying to get their feet wet. ....Brian's also coming off an ACL, so it's been good to get him in some team drills and stuff. But it's been going well, and as it gets going more and more, the competition will get tighter.''
Shanahan said he wouldn't hesitate to put a package of plays in for Manziel early on if Hoyer is named the starter right away.
"I would do it if it looked like the right thing to do,'' he said. "I have no problem with that. I think it does present some issues. If we think it can move the chains and be successful, I would never hesitate to do it.''
Manziel said it was nice to hear that neither quarterback is ahead but that he's just trying to learn the offense and isn't concerned about whether or not he'll win the starting job.
"It's me against the playbook right now,'' he said.
He said the offense is so much different than what he ran at Texas A&M, where he had more installation plans and not as much of a big, formal playbook.
Manziel also acknowledged that "I've always been better in a game situation'' and that he knows "I'm not going to have much freedom'' to freelance in the scrimmages and preseason games, because he has to learn to work within the framework of the offense.
But Shanahan, who worked with dual-threat quarterback Robert Griffin III the past two seasons in Washington, plans to let Manziel be the dynamic player he was in college and isn't about to squelch him.
"Johnny's continued to progress as a quarterback,'' said Shananan. "He's doing some things he didn't do in college, but at the same time trying not to lose what he is, trying to still make those plays you guys in college, and trying to learn when to let a play develop and when to abort to the play and get out of the pocket and do what he does best.''
Shanahan added that he's still also learning what Hoyer can do.
"I had him in OTAs with (seven-on-sevens), but I'm getting more used to him,'' said Shanahan. "I have four games of game tape to look at him, but he's been coming along. .... He's gone a good job getting our team in and out of the huddle, running the plays, executing the plays.''
Hoyer said he's also not concerned about who's ahead in the competition, and that he's just trying to master the new offense.
He said his surgically repaired knee has held up fine, and he's looked comfortable with all the rollouts and bootlegs in Shanahan's scheme.
More to come soon on the quarterback competition. web page
This is a weird situation. In the past, first round picks like Timid, BQ, and Weeden were fan favorites no matter how putrid they were and how badly they were outplayed by their competitors. This time around, the majority really seem to dislike Manziel and are relishing in bad-mouthing him.
I really like Hoyer, but this outright hostility towards Manziel is making me root for him a bit more.
With all that said...............I am interpreting Shanny's comments as such:
---neither qb is doing that great of a job and neither one has distinguished himself as being clearly ahead of the other.
I'm not sensing hate or a huge measure of dislike for JM.,,what I get is dislike for his off field social life...and people feel because he's not instantly grasping things it has set him back. The reality is and you know this,,he's a rookie learning a complex system and has only been in camp 1 week. While I didn't want the Browns to draft him , I get what he needs to learn and it takes time to do that,,everyone in here should know that from 14 years of TRAINING CAMP. Me ...I want to see some games and see if this team looks clueless like past teams or if they look like they're gonna compete.
I have never seen the anger towards a rookie like I have seen with Manziel. I mean former players are so jealous of this kid its embarrassing. You never hear former players rip another player like that especially a kid just coming into the league. Every one of these former players says Johny cant do it.
I'm on here more than you and I'm telling you........there are quite a few people on here that really, really don't like the guy.
It's just different because we both remember how much the masses loved Timid and BQ. Heck, even the stiff Weeden got a lot of love. This time last year the masses were telling me what an idiot I was because I said that while Norv's system was a better fit, it would not mask how poorly he read coverages post snap.
Well, that makes me root for him even more. I am all about overcoming great odds and proving the masses wrong.
You know that I really, really wanted us to draft Teddy. You and I even had some sparring sessions over that fact. I still wish we would have drafted Teddy. I value football intelligence and no one was in Teddy's ballpark in that respect.
However, I think you and I see Manziel in a similar fashion. He could be the bomb. He could also be the bust. But, we would never bet against this kid and all this negative hype makes us root for him just a bit more than we would have otherwise. Am I wrong?
I want whoever is rhe QB to be successful .Manziel will get his turn..I just hope that he doesn't implode or can't hack it, otherwise we'll be looking for another QB ..
My comments on Manziel weren't a negative. It simply goes along with what some others have said. Johnny Football has been here for one week in a new system with this being the only full playbook he has ever had to learn.
Rome wasn't built in a day. His maturation will take some time. I don't think it's a stretch by any means to expect Hoyer to be more adept at learning the playbook and emplement a new playbook.
It's not a nock on Johnny Football but rather what I feel should be a natural expectation. There is time for JF to catch up on the learning curve here. I just feel it's very unrealistic to expect it to happen with practices only going on for one week.
I wasn't talking about you when I made that post, Pit. It's just a general observation. It has a WAY different feel from when Brady was here.
Heck, DA led us to 10 wins. He made the Pro Bowl. And all I heard was how terrible he was and how great we would be w/BQ. Totally different feel w/Manziel. There are guys, like PDR, who said he almost certainly going to fail. What? That's as dumb as saying that Timid was going to be a HOFer, which was repeated over and over and over back in the day.
Don't take offense, bro..................it's just a different feel. And you know me.........I'm backing the underdog. The only problem I am having w/this is that I really, really like Hoyer. I was one of the guys leading the charge last year that he should play over Weeden and Campbell. Did you all forget those conversations? LOL
Bottom line..............I want the guy who gives us the best chance to win to be our guy. Now, that doesn't mean I won't give some of you guys grief when I think you are stacking the deck for your own personal favorite.
If Manziel starts the season as the starter, I would be shocked.....
But I'm sure that's what a lot of people would like to see.
'May the best man win.'
I think its because most people are acting like Hoyer is Tom Brady II, he's not...I really don't think he's that good..just compared to what we had last year he looked better than them, but that isn't saying much...he's still guy that throws alot of interceptions, and is a sub 60% accurate passer with no deep ball. But I think if he can stay in control, manage the game and throw short to intermediate accurately and give his receivers a chance to get YAC, he can be serviceable until JF is ready or until winston or mariota is ready next year...lol
You arent wrong. The piling on from the media, former players and fans have me really wanting this kid to do great. He had a slow to average at best release in college and now people are ripping on him because Hoyer who has one of the quickest releases in the game is gettign the ball out probably less than a half a second quicker. Hell I am elated with the progress he has made.
he apparently had a pretty good day today and it brought praise from the coaches yet I am watching NFLN andl according to guys like Jamie dukes and curtis conway, "it was just coach speak because they have to make it sound close in order to not split the locker room"? seriously thats the best you can come up wtih.
My favorite was the espn talking heads saying that dont pay any attention to what Manziel does in preseason because he will be playing against the #2's and they even mentioned him starting against the skins, like that the Skins will start their #2s.
They want to see him fail and fail miserably. He may indeed fail miserably but if he brings to this team what he brought to A&M, i think this team an be special and can be special very quickly.
Excellent post until you got to the Mariota part. That guy is more raw than Johnny. He has one read. If it is not there, he takes off. He is not even close to being NFL ready.
Yeah bro...........I'm w/you. It's a bunch of BS reporting. I am getting the feeling that many people would be happy to see Manziel fail.
I know that sounds weird, bro................but, I am not kidding. They will actually take pleasure in another man's failure. I am going to root for him even more now. Screw those idiots. { I do still wish we would have taken Teddy, though...LOL}
I gotta mention this, too..................................you have no idea how much it annoys me when people say "it was against the twos." Do any of those idiots realize that the guy is playing w/the 2's on offense? Good God! And anyone who has played or coached football on any level KNOWS that the defensive 2s are far superior to the offensive twos when they match-up. It ain't even close.
I remember reading that same BS when Holcomb continually outperformed Timid back in the day. Do people not recognize that not having your top OL and WRs are important? Sheesh!!!!
Quote: Excellent post until you got to the Mariota part. That guy is more raw than Johnny. He has one read. If it is not there, he takes off. He is not even close to being NFL ready.
No offense.
lol no i am not a mariota fan..i was just making a joke of the next big hype..I agree..i don't want any part of mariota either
Quote: Yeah bro...........I'm w/you. It's a bunch of BS reporting. I am getting the feeling that many people would be happy to see Manziel fail.
I know that sounds weird, bro................but, I am not kidding. They will actually take pleasure in another man's failure. I am going to root for him even more now. Screw those idiots. { I do still wish we would have taken Teddy, though...LOL}
I gotta mention this, too..................................you have no idea how much it annoys me when people say "it was against the twos." Do any of those idiots realize that the guy is playing w/the 2's on offense? Good God! And anyone who has played or coached football on any level KNOWS that the defensive 2s are far superior to the offensive twos when they match-up. It ain't even close.
I remember reading that same BS when Holcomb continually outperformed Timid back in the day. Do people not recognize that not having your top OL and WRs are important? Sheesh!!!!
haha, thats a perfect post...I can't stand it when people disqualify a good performance based on the opponent, if you are playing 2's or 3's with 2's and 3's well that makes all things equal. You still have to make the right reads, you still have to set protections, identify the blitz etc..don't matter what string they are.
I don't know that folks would be happy to see him fail - eh, who am I kidding, I'm sure there are some - but, I think most people simply want to see him legitimately EARN the starting job by taking it away from Hoyer by being better than Hoyer. I'm pretty sure that nobody in their right mind wants us to see him get the nod simply because he's a 1st round pick, or because he has his own publicist, or because of all the hype.... those are not reasons to start the kid. I think that mostly folks want all the ridiculous hype to go away and for the media to shut up until the kid has actually earned something.... anything.
It's a lot like those who seem to almost pray that Gordon is suspended so they can be right ..... no matter if the team is hurt by that suspension. There are people who wanted us to go another way at QB and are just dying to be able to say "I told you so!!!" ,,,, even if the team is set back and hurt.
Personally, I think that Manziel is a huge talent and huge risk ..... but I think that he was the right pick where he was taken, I on't se middle ground with this kid. He either becomes a superstar, or we're looking at a QB next year ... when we happen to have an extra 1st round pick to work with.
Quote: I don't know that folks would be happy to see him fail - eh, who am I kidding, I'm sure there are some - but, I think most people simply want to see him legitimately EARN the starting job by taking it away from Hoyer by being better than Hoyer. I'm pretty sure that nobody in their right mind wants us to see him get the nod simply because he's a 1st round pick, or because he has his own publicist, or because of all the hype.... those are not reasons to start the kid. I think that mostly folks want all the ridiculous hype to go away and for the media to shut up until the kid has actually earned something.... anything.
Hoyer IS NOT PROVEN, but he showed me enough last year to want to see him under center for the season and if Manziel unseats him, all the better. Personally I hope Johnny Football gets to be Johnny Clipboard this year, because that means Hoyer is getting it done.
Who cares who wanted them here, they are here, they are your Cleveland Browns QBs... just root for them.
I just hope that one guy manages to win the job outright (as opposed to not losing it) and holds the job all season long with solid play.
I also think that our QBs will get solid work against our defense .....and they should with guys like Haden Gilbert, and Skrine playing against our #1 offense. That trio should out our QBs and WRs through their paces, and I can't think of too many teams whose secondaries will be a bigger challenge than ours. That should help our offense get better. (hopefully, anyway)
It's not a nock on Johnny Football but rather what I feel should be a natural expectation. There is time for JF to catch up on the learning curve here. I just feel it's very unrealistic to expect it to happen with practices only going on for one week.
My thoughts exactly. There are only a few on this board I pay any attention.
Wait another week or two THEN start your raggin' if you want. Give the kids a chance to learn something. It's WAY to early to tell. Give the coaches a break. time, to do their job of evaluating to get the best players on the field and gelled into a team that can win.
I just hope we can get through TC and the pre-season games without any serious injuries.
Quote: It's a lot like those who seem to almost pray that Gordon is suspended so they can be right
Oh my goodness. Would you just shut up w/that nonsense. We don't have to look very hard to see who has been right in the past and who hasn't had a clue.
Here is what I said about Gordon:
Quote: We're not winning the Super Bowl this year w/or w/out Gordon. We won four freaking games w/him having a great season last year. I have already addressed that I knew I would be in the minority, but I think my wanting him to get his life together is more important than him playing for my favorite team this year.
Furthermore, if he does get his life together, he will give the Browns a lot of great years. and we won't have to deal w/this again next year. Because in my mind, his actions have told me he hasn't learned a thing and what happens if he gets off this year only to fail yet another drug test during the season? Think he will "get off" of that one, too? Nah man..........it's better for this young man to face the music, get his priorities straight, and completely revamp his life style.
It's what best for both the player and the team.
Of course, you interpreted that to mean that I hated him, wanted him off the team, and am smitten with "looking right."
Even on a Manziel thread you gotta bring up your BS!
From what I heard this morning it appears the struggles with Manziel stem from getting the play from the sideline and calling it in the huddle....it's new and complex for him. So people need to remember it isn't going to instantly happen after a week of practice. Comes with time..it's a p r o c e s s...
1. I hate and despise all these people n I don't mean fans as I don't think they have must effect. But media, analyst and former players - Determined to "BREAK" JM one of the things that makes him great is his CONFIDENCE...sorry I don't wish him broken and these schmucks do!
2. Hoyer again will be the starter. I've seen the camp tapes and I can care less who is throwing to ones/twos...I'm looking at the throws.
The drop is so crisp by Hoyer compared to JM The release is so amazingly fast when that back foot hits there might be a simple hitch or throw or its gone as soon as the back foot hits. JM not quite near that in his release. Ability to read the defense pre-snap. Again no comparison.
I have no doubt - JM will be a great QB for us in the future. 2014 will be Hoyer's year to shine. Great...ehhh probably not but I hope so of course. But Hoyer will be able to win for us.
As for both QBs looking bad...again the Bozos show why I think what I think.
I don't think there is one camp in the NFL at this point where the O is ahead of the Defense. Defenses are making all QB look bad at this point. And we should be one of the last to catch up to their defense not because of a lack of talent...but because of a lack of Consistency and yet again another Offense system being put in place!
Agree with you in part...media would take a different tune if Manziel was on another team..too much of Cleveland mishandling him amidst the they're doing it right..can't report it both ways..
By TOM WITHERS (AP Sports Writer) 1 hour ago AP - Sports
BEREA, Ohio (AP) -- A look at Browns rookie quarterback Johnny Manziel's day at training camp.
HITS AND MISSES: Manziel had another inconsistent practice as he continues to battle Brian Hoyer for the starting job. He was intercepted during one of the 11-ono-11 scrimmages by Josh Aubrey, who made a one-handed pick. Manziel had a few passes broken up, but he also displayed both power and finesse on come completions.
JOHNNY'S SHOES: For the second time this week, Manziel came onto the practice field wearing bright-colored cleats. On Friday, he sported a pair of fluorescent green Nikes, which he wore during the stretching period before switching into a pair of white cleats. One of the Browns training personnel said Manziel is trying to get the width right in the prototype shoes.
There had been speculation the team had told him to change the cleats.
YOU CAN'T DO THAT: After squirting through the line and running for a touchdown in a red zone drill, Manziel shot the football through over the goalpost's crossbar and drew a penalty flag for unsportsmanlike conduct from one of the officials working practice. The NFL is cutting down on end zone celebrations this season by eliminating any use of the goal post, which is now considered a prop.
UP NEXT: Manziel will get his chance to shine before 25,000 on Saturday as the Browns scrimmage at the University of Akron. Manziel was looking forward to something other than practice.
''For me, I've been better in game situations than I feel that I have in practice, but I have to come out here and get better at the plays and get better at the reps that I'm getting,'' he said. ''That's my main thing, just keep getting better, and when it's time to go out and play football, then it's time to play football.''
Thanks for the article, but the shoes and goal post as a prop? Man, these guys are reaching. I wish some of us were at camp.......we would do a better job of reporting, especially if we had good views like the reporters do. Do any of you remember when giving daily camp reports was big on the board? There was some good stuff in there.
Quote: Thanks for the article, but the shoes and goal post as a prop? Man, these guys are reaching. I wish some of us were at camp.......we would do a better job of reporting, especially if we had good views like the reporters do. Do any of you remember when giving daily camp reports was big on the board? There was some good stuff in there.
yea. I remember. on the other board. had a half a dozen people that would go and then say what they saw. loved it.
I remember board members actually going to camp and reporting what they saw. Other than a few of the stats that get reported now, those Dawgtalkers gave better reports than what I've been seeing from the media.
Nate Ulrich does a great job. I trust him over anyone when it comes to the day in day out going ons of the Browns.
Here is a link to his blog. He updates it multiple times throughout the day.
Quote: Lineup updates: Backup free safety Jordan Poyer took Tashaun Gipson’s place on the first-team defense after he suffered an injured left knee. An athletic trainer checked out Gipson’s knee and then they walked off the field and into the facility with about 20 minutes left in practice. Gipson was scheduled to undergo an MRI. ... With Pro Bowl left tackle Joe Thomas taking practice off to rest and backup Martin Wallace sidelined with an injured shoulder, Paul McQuistan filled in with the first-team offense. ... Garrett Gilkey and John Greco rotated at right guard for the first-team offense.
Highs and lows: The Browns ended practice with coaches representing the offense and defense in a punt-catching contest. In the fourth round, defensive line coach Anthony Weaver dropped a punt, and coaching intern Mike LaFleur caught the next one to clinch the win for the offense. The offense will reaps the rewards by wearing orange jerseys Monday. The most memorable moment unfolded when offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan celebrated after he caught a punt. “It was interesting,” coach Mike Pettine said. “Combination of Michael Jackson — he spun around and spiked it.” ... Quarterback Brian Hoyer continued to take all of the first-team reps while rookie quarterback Johnny Manziel worked with the second unit. Each one had a lackluster performances. In 11-on-11 sessions, Hoyer completed 7-of-13 passes. Manziel went 3-of-11 and was intercepted by safety Josh Aubrey. ... Kicker Billy Cundiff missed three consecutive field goals (two from 51 yards and one from 46). His teammates cheered loudly when he ended the drought with a successful attempt from 46 yards.
Injuries: Inside linebackers Tank Carder (foot) and Darius Eubanks (shoulder), wide receiver Chandler Jones (hamstring) and offensive linemen Randall Harris (knee), Wallace and Thomas did not practice. ... Nose tackle Phil Taylor (hamstring) and offensive lineman Nate McDonald (wrist) are on the non-football injury list. Saturday’s schedule: Family Day scrimmage at University of Akron’s InfoCision Stadium from 11:30 a.m.-2:10 p.m. Gates open at 10:30 a.m. Fan engagement activities will run from 9:30-11:30 a.m. on Vine Street.
Quote: Thanks for the article, but the shoes and goal post as a prop? Man, these guys are reaching. I wish some of us were at camp.......we would do a better job of reporting, especially if we had good views like the reporters do. Do any of you remember when giving daily camp reports was big on the board? There was some good stuff in there.
Agree!
I don't recall on this board, but on the Browns board, there were a couple of poster who wrote a book. You'd get a play-by-play description on every 7-on-7 and 11-on-11 drills. I thought it was a little over the top at the time. Dang, I miss it!!
I never attended. To think, I once lived 30 min. away an never thought of attending. Now that I'm 10 hours away I wonder if it is worth a visit!!!!
I used to go up there for 4 or 5 days of camp every year. Havent done that in a few years. Was working for a couple different sites at the time and it was a writeoff lol. I liked talking football and that stuff just isnt what the masses desire. Manziel and a couple more Brownies stop by a tavern for a beer and its all over the net. Gipson goes down with an injury and noone notices.
REA, Ohio -- As the story goes, the Cleveland Browns are having a training camp quarterback competition.
If it's really going to be a competition, the time is now for Johnny Manziel to make it that.
To make up ground. To keep making progress.
It's really not fair for every throw and every rep of camp to be judged from the sideline by those who don't know the play calls, the reads or the situations, but that's the environment that's been created. Camp is a week old now, and for most of that week veteran Brian Hoyer has played and carried himself like a veteran.
To this untrained eye, this competition really hasn't been much of one for much of that week. Hoyer's been well ahead.
He had his best day Friday, but Manziel has struggled -- and it's shown in his body language. The Browns have said no one's ahead and that there's a long way to go. It would be too strong to say Manziel sounded defeated when he talked to the media Thursday, but he was Johnny Humbled much more than he was Johnny Flash.
"It's me against the playbook," he said.
Another response was: "I'll play when these coaches decide I'm ready. There's no rush."
There were still bad Manziel throws on Friday, but if this was a round-by-round competition, Manziel would have won the day; he had his best day when Hoyer had his worst. Manziel had completion streaks. He threw a dart touchdown on a slant on the first play of a red zone 7-on-7 drill and kept going from there. He later ran in a touchdown. He made his best throws in team drills.
More than anything, his body language indicated he was feeling comfortable and confident.
Like it might be game on.
Before camp, Browns coach Mike Pettine said he wanted to have a quarterback before the third preseason game on Aug. 23. That makes sense on several levels, especially because the new trend is for starters to play very little, if at all, in the fourth preseason game.
Considering Hoyer has taken every rep with the first-team offense thus far, Manziel has a long way to go. After Friday's practice, Pettine said the coaches would meet about rep distribution for Saturday's intrasquad scrimmage.
The preseason schedule puts Manziel on the clock, but it's all right in front of him. He has this intrasquad scrimmage, then a full work week next week before the Aug. 9 preseason opener in Detroit. He has to earn chances with the starters.
From there, the Browns have a long week before their second preseason game, Aug. 18 at the Redskins. That means the final three preseason games are played in 10 days, leaving little time for practice.
With Hoyer's experience and most teams playing very vanilla defenses in the preseason, it's hard to imagine Hoyer falling on his face -- or even anything close to that -- in the preseason. Hoyer's been steady, and even on his most inaccurate day of camp Friday he chose the safe route over big mistakes and still gets the ball out of his hand very quickly.
The time is now for Manziel to earn first-team reps and to make the most of them. He's going to have to do it in practice, and he's going to have to do it the way he did Friday, by stringing together good throws and good practice periods and turning those into stretches of good practice days, not just flashes.
He's going to have to love the playbook. And every meeting. And every rep.
Every single one -- starting Saturday with a scrimmage in front of a crowd that could be close to 30,000.
I have seen and heard of cases where players simply don't show that well in practice but when put in a game time situation, they excel.
In the case of rookie QB's, usually the playbook has to be scaled back because the pros is totally different than the NCAA. From both the standpoint of the complexity of the playbook and post snap reads.
Quote: I have seen and heard of cases where players simply don't show that well in practice but when put in a game time situation, they excel.
In the case of rookie QB's, usually the playbook has to be scaled back because the pros is totally different than the NCAA. From both the standpoint of the complexity of the playbook and post snap reads.
So time will tell with JF.
Manziel probably should have had two TD throws. He has a gun for an arm and can throw on the run. He's still learning, but he should be starting by week 1. I think the pre season games will be telling.
Quote: I have seen and heard of cases where players simply don't show that well in practice but when put in a game time situation, they excel.
In the case of rookie QB's, usually the playbook has to be scaled back because the pros is totally different than the NCAA. From both the standpoint of the complexity of the playbook and post snap reads.
So time will tell with JF.
Manziel probably should have had two TD throws. He has a gun for an arm and can throw on the run. He's still learning, but he should be starting by week 1. I think the pre season games will be telling.
KING
I think the reason being, in camp you're trying to do everything exactly by the book in a sterile environment, in the game you have to think on you feet and your read/react skills come into play...good qbs have that. Which i believe is why JFF will be the starter sooner rather than later. He's a gamer..Hoyer's used to being on the practice field and camps since he's been in the league longer...he make look better in practice but it doesn't mean he's the better QB. I am one of the people that think Hoyer isn't anything special. He's very mediocre, against weeden and campbell he looked better, but it don't mean he's something special. I believe if JFF can't beat hoyer out, we will be drafting another QB high again. I have confidence he will though. Once the preseason games start coming around I think that will be where you see the QB's start to separate..Hoyer will more than likely show his true self of being inaccurate interception prone with no deep ball but able to somewhat manage the game but won't do anything that will win it. he'll have to rely alot on his playmakers to generate something. Where you will see JFF be the one making that WTF play that leads to something big that changes the game.. Everyone should be hoping that JFF beats out hoyer, that means we have improved from last year and our FO got a draft right for once. Either way, I'll root for both as they both have the story you can get behind.
Quote: No one threw against air like Weeden. Hoyer isnt a bad player, it really is that Johny has the potential to be a greeat one.
well last year there was a reason hoyer was # 3 to start the season. bad practice? but he did much better in real games is the point I was trying to make.
Browns rookie Johnny Manziel appears to be on Brian Hoyer’s heels after running in Akron
By Nate Ulrich Beacon Journal sports writer
Published: August 2, 2014 - 05:37 PM | Updated: August 2, 2014 - 05:41 PM
Browns rookie quarterback Johnny Manziel returned to campus Saturday and showed flashes of the improvisational wizard who took college football by storm the past two years.
But this time “Manzielmania” enveloped the University of Akron instead of Texas A&M. Nevertheless, Johnny Football went back to school, and not even ornery weather could ruin his fun.
Threats of thunderstorms prompted the Browns to run their Family Day scrimmage from 11:13 a.m. to 12:28 p.m. instead of the scheduled 11:30 a.m. to 2:10 p.m.. But at least the announced crowd of 20,673 at InfoCision Stadium received an opportunity to watch Manziel do what he does best as the Browns took a test drive in preparation for their Aug. 9 preseason opener at Detroit.
In the first unscripted, live action of training camp, Manziel’s run-around-and-create-something-on-the-fly style was on display more than any other time since the Browns drafted 22nd overall May 8. It’s his greatest strength, though it’s not always evident in a regular practice setting.
“It felt good to run,” said Manziel, who won the Heisman Trophy in 2012. “And I think the plays we executed on those worked really well.”
Manziel continued to work exclusively with the second-team offense, and veteran Brian Hoyer took all of the snaps with the first unit. Coach Mike Pettine said the staff would meet Sunday to discuss when it’ll give Manziel his first reps with the starters. Last week, Pettine and offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan said it would happen soon.
Pettine wouldn’t call the battle for the starting quarterback job closer than it was at the start of camp July 26.
“I wouldn’t say that [it’s closer]. When camp began, Brian was the ones because we had to put somebody out there with the ones,” Pettine said. “But they were truly competing against each other, and at some point we will mix the units. I think that it’s all part of our evaluation process.”
Despite Pettine’s reluctance to go along with the notion that Manziel narrowed the gap between himself and Hoyer with his performance in the scrimmage, it might be reality. Still, Manziel described his rookie growing pains and attempt to learn the intricacies of the playbook as “a struggle” last week, so he must focus solely on overcoming those obstacles to surpass Hoyer.
“There’s no gap that I’m looking at right now,” Manziel said after the scrimmage. “It’s know the playbook, know everything. There’s still so many little things here and there that can throw a play and change a play and a defensive look, and that’s stuff that I wasn’t used to. Now I’m seeing it, adjusting, learning.”
Manziel said he hasn’t talked to the coaches about when he’ll receive first-team reps, though they’re likely on the horizon.
“I’m fine with how things are going and I’m learning,” he said. “That’s really the only thing I need to be worried about right now.”
Excluding red-zone drills, Manziel completed 3-of-7 passes for 14 yards with runs of 9 and 5 yards in 11-on-11 sessions. He didn’t often drop back in the pocket, read the defense and strike -- and his coaches know he’ll need to improve in those areas to succeed in the NFL -- but he find unconventional ways to make plays.
“He made a couple nice runs, made some nice throws,” Pettine said. “Where most quarterbacks would step out of bounds, he got two completions there.”
With Manziel operating against the second-team defense on both of his series, the offense went three-and-out the first time before bouncing back for a 16-play, 63-yard drive that ended with receiver Taylor Gabriel being tackled for a 6-yard loss after catching a short pass from Manziel on fourth-and-goal from the 1.
“The first drive came out a little sloppy,” Manziel said. “But from there I thought I was proud of my group.”
Manziel kept the long march alive earlier when he completed a 14-yard pass to undrafted rookie receiver Willie Snead on fourth-and-5 from the 34. On first-and-goal from the 9, Manziel rolled to his right and connected with tight end Gary Barnidge in the back right corner of the end zone, but the officials ruled Barnidge caught the pass out of bounds (“I can’t really tell,” Manziel said. “We’ll see on film if he got his feet in.”) On first-and-goal from the 4, Manziel threw a dart to receiver Charles Johnson in the front of the end zone, but he dropped the ball when rookie cornerback Justin Gilbert ran into him.
With those missed opportunities among the culprits, the Browns didn’t score a touchdown on offense all day.
“We have to convert when we get into the red zone,” Pettine said. “The field gets tight there. The defense can take some chances, and they did and that’s something we’re going to get a lot of work on.”
Hoyer completed 7-of-11 passes for 56 yards in team drills other than the red-zone periods. He faced the first-team defense in two series and the second unit in another series. He opened the scrimmage with 40 yards on the opening march against the starting defense, but the offense eventually stalled.
“I thought Brian, especially in that first series, converted some third downs and was poised in the pocket,” Pettine said. “He stepped up and made some throws.”
Against the second-string defense, Hoyer helped the offense move but couldn’t keep it going. The series ended with kicker Billy Cundiff’s successful 53-yard field goal.
“I think we got some good work in,” Hoyer said. “Obviously, we have a long way to go.”
Manziel did not commit a turnover, but Hoyer was picked off in a red-zone drill. On fourth-and-5 at the 20, undrafted rookie defensive lineman Jacobbi McDaniel tipped the ball near the line of scrimmage, allowing outside linebacker Barkevious Mingo to intercept the deflected pass and return it nearly 50 yards before right tackle Mitchell Schwartz tackled him.
“It’s definitely tough because I think [the intended receiver] was pretty much wide open to go up the middle of the field,” Hoyer said. “It’s definitely something that you’ve got to work on, and it’s a feel and being in the pocket. No matter what, it’s on you because you can’t throw it to the [other] guys.”
Mingo accurately stated the defense “came out on top,” but he also acknowledged a more notable development: Manziel busted loose. Defenders will certainly aim to stop him in his tracks, but they’ve got to catch him first.
“If he was a regular quarterback in this league, you’d be licking your chops, but it’s Johnny Manziel,” Mingo said. “He can plant. He can take it the other way. You just never know what he’s going to do.”
Just taking first team reps should allow Manziel to close the gap. Closing the gap and gap closed are two different things. I still think Hoyer is the starter week one and until he fails.
I don't know if he will be starting week 1, but he is as clearly a more talented QB as Kosar was more talented than Danielson.....and Kosar didn't start for the first 7-8 weeks of his rookie season.
Manzeil 3 of 7 for 14 yards Hoyer 7 of 11 for 56 yards
How is that "Manziel narrowing the gap"?
Did you read the entire article? Those weren't the only plays.
I actually get the feeling that the media hasn't been completely honest about this qb competition thus far. It was harder for them to lie today because so many people witnessed it.
I'll wait for the preseason games and draw my own conclusions, but make no mistake, the media seems to want to see this guy fail, just like many of our own fans seemingly want him to.
the one thing i hear that alarms me is we have receivers dropping balls on both QB's that directly cost us points and turnovers. We gotta change that more than the QB and fast!
I know that everyone wants to be positive and they get mad when some of us aren't, but our WRs suck as a group [if Gordon is gone.]
Even w/him, we aren't that good. He drops a ton of passes and isn't a good route runner. He is a physical freak who will make big plays due to his extraordinary athleticism, but he is not a guy who you can count on to make sight adjustments and hot reads.
Some of you will be offended by that because you think he is god, but I am not really bad-mouthing him here. Having a guy who can just blow by the best corners in the league and make huge, huge gains is invaluable.
Who is the guy who is going to find the open hole in the zone to pick up a first down on 3rd down? Who is the guy who is going to recognize the corner blitz and make a hot read? Who is the guy who can make a sight adjustment when the defense disguises its coverage and shifts from one to another? Who is the guy who is going to get open and make the big catch in the end zone?
Quote: Who is the guy who is going to find the open hole in the zone to pick up a first down on 3rd down? Who is the guy who is going to recognize the corner blitz and make a hot read? Who is the guy who can make a sight adjustment when the defense disguises its coverage and shifts from one to another? Who is the guy who is going to get open and make the big catch in the end zone?
I don't think we have that guy.
Possibly Jordan Cameron. But I agree. We really could use one more good receiver. Gordon is good at what he does, but someone that can also play on the outside that we can depend on for possession and making clutch catches. Hawkins might be a useful target too. I'm hoping for a lot from Miles Austin, but we shall see.
I think Shannahan is going to have to do a lot of work figuring out what each guy is good with and putting them in the right positions to succeed. What Gordon does do though, is open the top of the defense. And they should help our running game. Worked in 2007 with Winslow, Edwards, and Lewis (a triangle type of offense with Jurevicious and I think Northcutt making some catches here and there also).
Joe J. was the key. Yeah, Leon and K2 had the big plays, but on 3rd down, DA almost always went to Joe. He found the openings in the zone coverage. DA knew he would be where he was supposed to be. I have some cool stories about the other two and that, but I won't share them right now.
Was Cutt still on the team? I thought he was gone?
I worry about Hawkins' hands. I think he drops too many to be that reliable guy.
We need help there. I was high on Charles Johnson, but it seems he isn't doing so great thus far. Again, we need help at WR.
Thanks steve..............you know I value your opinion. Heck, you are the guy who discovered A. Bryant.
Do you believe any of that? I will say that the point about Jordan was a good one.
Look, the offense did not score a single TD today. There were numerous dropped passes. Hoyer and Manziel's numbers have been putrid. /Thigpin and Shaw have been awful. You don't think that the poor play of the WRs is not at least partially responsible?
Oh, and steve..............I am not saying any of that in a harsh way. Not challenging you. Just kinda down on the WR group. What's your thoughts?
Well, I think I was as vocal as anyone about my displeasure about the lack of a significant WR from the draft, and I did have a bit of a "what is this, 2010?" feeling about the free agent pickups, but all accounts have Austin performing very well, and Burleson has been productive whenever healthy going all the way back to Green Bay... A lot of these drops being reported are the Jim Drays, the Charles Johnsons, Cedric Obueghis... Guys who I think (well I hope anyways) that Shanahan isn't counting on.
What I'm most worried about is definitely the glass jaw this unit seems to have. The injury bug hits and for sure it can go south quickly, but regarding those specific roles you inquired about, I do think those players are in place with the intention of filling those roles.
JMO anyways.
PS, I think the fact that every one of our wide receivers other than Travis Benjamin was not on the active roster last year... And the fact that we are in YET ANOTHER offensive system with its own terminology, is playing a huge role in the offensive struggles. Sadly, I don't think adding someone else to the mix (unless he was a physical freak like Gordon) would help the situation much for those reasons.
Manzeil 3 of 7 for 14 yards Hoyer 7 of 11 for 56 yards
How is that "Manziel narrowing the gap"?
Did you read the entire article? Those weren't the only plays.
I actually get the feeling that the media hasn't been completely honest about this qb competition thus far. It was harder for them to lie today because so many people witnessed it.
I'll wait for the preseason games and draw my own conclusions, but make no mistake, the media seems to want to see this guy fail, just like many of our own fans seemingly want him to.
I will admit that my attention tends to fade as some of these "writers" drone on. The article does state excluding red zone drills which I hadn't caught the 1st time I looked at the article. But seems to me that would be the majority of the plays. They didn't give the stats from the red zone drills.
If, and this is a big IF ...... but if Gordon is able to play this year, and if the veterans we signed can stay healthy, this would be our best WR corps since 2007 .... and maybe even better than that group.
We had Edwards, Winslow, and Joe J ..... and that was it in 2007,
This year we could have Gordon, Cameron, Austin, Burleson, and a youngster or 2.
If Gordon plays this year, we might have a very good receiver group. It all depends on whether or not he wins his appeal though.
If Austin and Burleson are healthy, and if Gordon is not suspended .... which, granted, is a lot of ifs ...... but if those things happen, then this is probably our best receiving corps since we returned.
It's a lot of "Ifs" ... but stranger things have happened. We also will certainly continue to look for receivers, especially as teams start trimming,and some veterans drop off other rosters.
Quote: Man................I respect your opinion, but I think this is one of the worst receiving groups in the NFL and even in our pathetic history.
Okay, so I just looked up our 2007 depth chart.
WR: Tim Carter, Josh Cribbs, "Leon", Joe J., and Travis "The Best WR in the Draft" Wilson (FYI, Calvin Johnson was in that draft. Sure wish Wilson was as good as he was confident).
TE: Winslow, Heiden, Darnell Dinkins.
So Winslow and Heiden caught balls. So did Leon and Joe J. Cribbs was still early in his time here, so possibly that Flash Package and some reverses, otherwise he was the human torpedo one man wrecking crew Kick/Punt Returner (and that might have been the season of his career. Single handidly, by returning the ball the way he did, he might have done more for the offense that year than possibly anyone)
Now, as Ytown says, hoping for the best. We have Gordon (at least equal to Braylon, both take the top off a defense) and Cameron (a step down from Winslow, Winslow was awesome, but still darn good). I'd call that close to even.
So we've got Heiden and Joe Jurevicious vs our backup who's supposed to be decent Dray?, Miles Austin (or place in Hawkins) vs Joe Jurevicious. Then Tim Carter and Travis Wilson vs Andrew Hawkins (or Miles Austin), and a combo of Travis Benjamin (deep threat), Anthony Armstrong, Nate Burleson, and Willie Snead. I have little faith in that Packers Practice Squad guy, and I figure Snead has the best shot of the rookie receivers to make the squad.
At least on paper, I don't think it looks much worse than 2007. That was our most successful offensive year since we came back I imagine. Probably more successful than the playoff year of Holcomb/Couch.
We just really have to hope for the best for Gordon. We have Gordon, safety help becomes mandatory, and that can be used to set up the run and open up other guys inside. This was done the same way with Braylon in 2007.
As Ytown said, a lot of this depends on Gordon, but he'd make a world of difference. I know we still lost all those games with Gordon's 1700 yards last year or whatever, but our offense would have been far worse without him. We were in most games, just would blow it at the end.
Lol looking at your depth chart I am reminded that we once fielded Tim Carter ... this team has had so many of "those" guys ... it's tough to keep track of them, but when it jolts your memory you laugh
Quote: It is the worst receiving group in the NFL sans Gordon.
And it's not much better with him. Lots of uncertainty beyond Gordon and Cameron.
What makes it the worst?
Just chiming in here Peen because I've been thinking about this subject as well. Which teams do have a worse WR corp (assuming we don't have Gordon)? Carolina comes to mind. Maybe Jacksonville? I'm not sure
Quote: Lol looking at your depth chart I am reminded that we once fielded Tim Carter ... this team has had so many of "those" guys ... it's tough to keep track of them, but when it jolts your memory you laugh
Other than Gordon [who probably won't be available] and Jordan, this year's entire receiving corps are "those guys."
When we started out, I was more worried about the QB's. Now I'm not so sure, you would think with all the vet's we have at WR we'd be in good shape there. I think we have more talent this yr. than last yr. on O. With Tate and West we seem to have a good RB combo and a stronger OL with a new G. But..even with only one rookie WR (Sneed) We just not putting it together yet. CJ might make the Team, but I think it's gonna take a least a Yr. before he recovers from the ACL and learns the system. If we put him on the practice squad he's most likely gone. I hope it's just a matter of time for everyone to get on the same page. We just need to gel on O.
Quote: Lol looking at your depth chart I am reminded that we once fielded Tim Carter ... this team has had so many of "those" guys ... it's tough to keep track of them, but when it jolts your memory you laugh
Other than Gordon [who probably won't be available] and Jordan, this year's entire receiving corps are "those guys."
That's most receiving corps though.
They have a couple of top options, and several "guys". The Steelers, for example, have who ...... Antonio Brown and maybe Heath Miller? (though hes a "guy" these days too) They brought in Lance Moore, but he's been on the downside. They drafted a guy in the 4rth .... and we'll see. They have has=d some success with mid round receivers, owing to their QB play, I think ...... but right now, they really have one top end player, and a bunch of "those other guys".
Gordon, Austin, Cameron and btw I am loving this kid Sneed, is a damn good combination. I think guys like Burelson and Armstrong are going to have a difficult time making this team. I am not yet worried about this group of receivers. We lose Gordon, then we can worry cause you arent gonna find his replacement anywhere but Austin is the best #2 receiver we have had since the 80s. Just have to keep his hamstrings loose.
I also feeel our RBs are really gonna become part of our pass offense. Defense is always ahead of offense this time of year and right now I am not the least bit concerned with the receivers.
They also have Ben. He won a couple of Super Bowls. We don't even have a QB who has started an entire season.
I know it's a downer, but I don't have a lot of hope for this offense. Maybe I am wrong and you guys are right. I hope that's the way it plays out. We'll see.
I thought that Armstrong was being counted on as the one who could stretch the field? Course if you can't catch the ball then it's a moot point anyway. Who else do we have that can play outside? I mean besides sending CJ out there every once in a while or baby hawk?
We will probably only keep 5 and if Gordon wins his appeal, it will be hard. Gordon, austin, Hawkins, I think Sneed makes it as he is now getting reps with first team and has some chemistry with Johny. So now you have Burleson, Benjamin, Amstrong and Johnson competing for 1 slot most likelly to go to thebest special teamer.
Without Gordon, we won't have anyone to stretch the field. Teams will crowd the LOS and it is going to make things very difficult for our running game and either of our two QBs due to their lack of experience and mediocre arms.
Well, if that's the case then I would have to say it's bengi. If we don't have Gordon then it just about has to be Armstong. We need a constant outside WR that can go deep. So I say if that's the case we go with 6 WR.
Quote: Without Gordon, we won't have anyone to stretch the field. Teams will crowd the LOS and it is going to make things very difficult for our running game and either of our two QBs due to their lack of experience and mediocre arms.
I think Hawkins can stretch the field...watch the vid.
IDK, i see the logic, but I am not so sure the absence of JG chances the scheme against us much.
You will still have their best CB on our #1 receiver and probably offer some help over the top with a safety, our #2 will be manned up on the other side.
If so their other safety will shade the box as run suport and also as backside pass support as they would match up zone with their LB's underneath.
The difference will be that over the top support for the #1 will be mitigated and allow that safety to shade more to the center of the field which offers support on seam routes.
As a result I would expect less from the slot ( Hawkins?) than we would get with JG but much of the close to the same production on the trail routes , hooks and other underneath, we would get with JG... NOW>>>the production will be reduced some ( depending on how well we run the ball and the strength of the D middle defense) because if you have better coverage on the seam routes ( see above) the drop of the MLB's does not have to be as deep.
I would expect to see a lot of wheel routes, 12 yard flag type patterns ( whatever you O guys call that) and the like because regardless of JG or not a WR going deep still clears the zone. just MHO from the other side.
The 31 year old??? Douglas I think that is his name...he can definitely stretch vertical!
Not really in the mood for arguing. But this is probably the best WR UNIT we ever had. Considering top to bottom.
Austin, Burleson, Hawkins, Gordon (yeah a maybe), Cameron got to include him even though his contract has him as a TE. Benjamin was a weapon before his injury. Douglas - guy can FLY!
Barnidge no slumph. Thats him with the TD that wasn't right?
Does Manziel have the stuff to make something happen out of nothing...Oh man yes, why I think he will be great.
Under Center, Release, Pre Snap, Pocket accuracy, Pocket decision...just NO WHERE close to HOYER. Manziel Brings it Game time...without a doubt again, why he will be great.
Hoyer the best QB for the Browns to win in 2014...no doubt in my mind.
Bozo's wanting Manziel to fail...why they are Bozo's and they wishing that to happen too too hard. I said it before they want to "BREAK" JM with all this crap...and include the Frankenstein WR Reed in that BOZO Crew!
Jmho...Hoyer will be fine...Manziel will become one of the Greatest Browns QBs !
My confidence in manziel just comes from the improvements I saw this kid make. he won the Heisman as a freshman and he comes back year 2 and arm strength improved, accuracy improved, he became a better passer from the pocket. Then at his proday, I thought his mechanics and footwork improved and his arm strength improved even more and he was throwing the deep ball with much better precision. And now after a week in camp, he is getting the ball out much quicker almost as fast as Hoyer. This is steady growth.
I think right now he probably has a top 10 NFL arm. Top 5 in mobility. The rest we will see but I like our chances with this kid and he will make those around him better. I think our run game could be scary with the shannahan stretch runs and West. BTW Crowell is coming on strong from everything i am hearing. Tate may be our short yardage back before all is said and done lol.
Manzeil 3 of 7 for 14 yards Hoyer 7 of 11 for 56 yards
How is that "Manziel narrowing the gap"?
he was 2 of 7 the last time?
that is exactly what I was going to say...
JMFFB has a long way to go based on what everyone not in the national media is saying. However, the national media tends to be more right than Browns fans.
That's Armstrong. IIRC, he played for Shanahan in the past, and had a nice season under him. He is smaller, at 5'10", but has good speed. I don't know why he never caught on anywhere else,
In 2010, he caught 44 passes for 871 yards, 19.8 per catch, and 3 TD ..... and then fell off the map. The NFL is really weird sometimes.
Armstrong...got to remember his name I keep thinking of Douglas for some reason.
All I know is he can stretch the field vertical.
Also with a son a Cowboy fan and we got the ticket and a lot of 4pm games or the Thurs. Sunday Monday nite games I saw a lot of them. Miles Austin will drop your easy passes now and then. But excellent on the deep outs.
I say this crew is the best we had as a WR Corp...I also do know they came here mostly on injuries from last year. Why those stats were a little skewed for yards and catches. Little Bess and Gordon were pretty much out there all year long...Gordon missed two and I think Bess missed a couple at the end too.
I did read that before regarding 70+% catches when thrown to by Burleson...didn't know Hawkins too. Have we ever had that before...even JJ didn't have that kind of success.
But Gentlemen...Ladies...we got a NEW and complicated Offense that we are transitioning to again. You have to understand the difference from KNOWING THE PLAYS to EXECUTING THE PLAYS...those are two different things.
Quote: I did read that before regarding 70+% catches when thrown to by Burleson...didn't know Hawkins too. Have we ever had that before...even JJ didn't have that kind of success.
cribs was at 68% in 2011 as I recall. I would think jj was better? it was why I was saying that cribs was a better receiver than little that year.
Johnny Football lost by a nose- at Canterbury Downs raceway. I figured with a name like that it was a sure fire bet. If I would have boxed the trifecta it would have paid..... lol
I just thought it was crazy a horse was named Johnny Football, it just didn't last the mile distance.
All reports from this weekend were that Manziel is looking better every day. I think I read he accounted for 4 touchdowns in 11 on 11 either yesterday or Saturday.
Quote: Only in Cleveland can the backup go 4-11 with no touchdowns and close the gap.
Pretty much everything in this post is inaccurate.
Care to explain?
Didn't I just say he accounted for 4TD's?
Quote: BEREA (92.3 The Fan) – Training camp hasn’t been much fun for Johnny Manziel. He hasn’t come in and blown anyone away with his play during the first 6 practices but on Friday he showed the ability to put points on the board – something the offense hasn’t done much of this week. Manziel was responsible for at least 4 offensive touchdowns during 11 on 11 drills.
Quote: I know that everyone wants to be positive and they get mad when some of us aren't, but our WRs suck as a group [if Gordon is gone.]
Even w/him, we aren't that good. He drops a ton of passes and isn't a good route runner. He is a physical freak who will make big plays due to his extraordinary athleticism, but he is not a guy who you can count on to make sight adjustments and hot reads.
Some of you will be offended by that because you think he is god, but I am not really bad-mouthing him here. Having a guy who can just blow by the best corners in the league and make huge, huge gains is invaluable.
Who is the guy who is going to find the open hole in the zone to pick up a first down on 3rd down? Who is the guy who is going to recognize the corner blitz and make a hot read? Who is the guy who can make a sight adjustment when the defense disguises its coverage and shifts from one to another? Who is the guy who is going to get open and make the big catch in the end zone?
Can't wait for Saturday's Scrimmage. NFL Network is showing it Live. Hoyer will start which means he'll get a couple of series or the first Quarter. Manziel will get probably close to a half.
JM is a gamer...he just plays the game and wins. Its time to stop thinking and play which he does. He's a fast learner also.
I wish to see both and make some comparison. Unless Hoyer falls on his face the next 2 weeks He'll be starting our 3rd preseason game which means the Season.
But I'd like to see how far JM has come. Without a doubt he will be our franchise QB...Finally the holy grail in sight!
True...I guess we'll see on Wed. who gets the first team reps although I don't know how preseason would work, I know Season wise wednesday is the key.
Lets put it this way - I would think they would wish to see more of JM the rook then somebody they are pretty sure of what they got. Preseason most of the work goes to the backup!
But logic says Hoyer starts n JM gets more work all be it with mostly twos maybe OL stays there a bit longer as some WR in rotations...the RB will be Roster worthy as well!
By Tom Reed, Northeast Ohio Media Group on August 04, 2014 at 2:33 PM, updated August 04, 2014 at 5:16 PM
LATROBE, Ohio – The Browns' quarterback competition is just starting to percolate in Berea.
But legendary Pittsburgh Steelers defensive coordinator Dick LeBeau thinks he knows whom the Browns will start in the regular-season opener in Pittsburgh on Sept. 7.
"I'm expecting (Johnny) Manziel to be the starter," LeBeau told cleveland.com Monday, a day Manziel earned exclusive first-team reps for the first time in practice. "That's what I'm expecting. What he did in college is not an accident. He did it often enough against good teams."
The Steelers face the Browns twice in the first five games. While LeBeau went on record with his thoughts, others in the organization privately anticipate Manziel beating out Brian Hoyer.
Coach Mike Tomlin and general manager Kevin Colbert were among the NFL personnel to attend Manziel's pro-day workout at Texas A&M.
The Steelers have made life miserable for young Browns quarterbacks – older ones, too – since they intercepted Tim Couch's first NFL pass in 1999.
Maybe LeBeau is simply saying nice things to a Cleveland media outlet about the Browns' first-round draft pick a month before the opener. His defenses have been baffling rookie quarterbacks for a generation. He was, however, complimentary of Manziel's skillset.
"I think he is going to be a handful for all of us," said LeBeau, a Pro Football Hall of Famer. "You watch all his games and he created plays, he made plays, he kept plays alive.
"He has the ability to see people and the touch with the football to get it in there late in the down. I think he will be successful at this level."
Steelers defensive back Ike Taylor understands Manziel has detractors because of all the hype surrounding him and the celebrity lifestyle he enjoys without having played an NFL game. But Taylor has been following his career since Manziel won the Heisman Trophy in the 2012 season.
"There is only one Johnny Football," Taylor said. "I have been a fan of Johnny Football since (he played) in college. I know people tend to talk about him, but he's a young man having fun, and regardless of what you want to say about him he makes plays on the field. That's all that really matters . . . He's a playmaker and he loves the game."
The Steelers inadvertently helped the Browns acquire Manziel with the No. 22 overall pick. Cleveland traded up four spots in a deal with the Philadelphia Eagles to acquire the quarterback. The sweetener the Browns used to entice the Eagles was the No. 83 overall selection they acquired a year ago in a trade enabling the Steelers to draft defensive back Shamarko Thomas.
Quote: "I'm expecting (Johnny) Manziel to be the starter," LeBeau told cleveland.com Monday
That's interesting.
Quote: The Steelers inadvertently helped the Browns acquire Manziel with the No. 22 overall pick. Cleveland traded up four spots in a deal with the Philadelphia Eagles to acquire the quarterback. The sweetener the Browns used to entice the Eagles was the No. 83 overall selection they acquired a year ago in a trade enabling the Steelers to draft defensive back Shamarko Thomas.
Remember the thread w/page after page after page about how dumb Banner was to make that trade?
Quote: "I'm expecting (Johnny) Manziel to be the starter," LeBeau told cleveland.com Monday
That's interesting.
Quote: The Steelers inadvertently helped the Browns acquire Manziel with the No. 22 overall pick. Cleveland traded up four spots in a deal with the Philadelphia Eagles to acquire the quarterback. The sweetener the Browns used to entice the Eagles was the No. 83 overall selection they acquired a year ago in a trade enabling the Steelers to draft defensive back Shamarko Thomas.
Remember the thread w/page after page after page about how dumb Banner was to make that trade?
Thanks. It existed. Everyone who read the board knows that. arch is just being arch.
I have been thinking about who should start at qb. Again, I still think that whomever performs the best should start, but on some levels, Manziel might be a better fit for this team. Here is why:
If Gordon is suspended, we are going to be lacking a WR who can stretch the field. Teams will be crowding the LOS in order to stuff our run game and take away the short and intermediate passing game. That's a rough thing to deal w/for any qb.
Manziel's ability to break out of the pocket and extend plays should help overcome some of the problems that our offense would face by having the defense crowding the LOS. His ability to run the read option should also help our running game.
If Gordon is available, then it would probably behoove the Browns to go w/Hoyer, at least to start the year.
I don't disagree, but if you listen and read all of the training camp stuff. You haven't heard a lot of "Hoyer threw for a TD". I mean very little of it, maybe that's just the media being the media. Who knows.
I know Mike Pettine said giving Manziel 1st team reps yesterday was "part of the plan". I just don't buy that, give a guy first team reps in a game week? It had nothing to do with the fact that he was just more productive last week? Sounds like coach speak to me.
We'll see. I just think we brought Shannhan here and drafted Manziel for a reason. People thought I was crazy when I suggested that us having brought in Vince Young made it more likely that we would draft Manziel. It just seems like we've been building this offense for him, he's (from what I've read) out produced Hoyer. We'll see....
I see your point, especially about bringing in Shanny and the offense being a good fit for Manziel.
I was also thinking about how we are seemingly following Seattle's recipe for success. Yes, they have a great secondary, an awesome defense, and a strong running game, but they also have a mobile qb who can make plays outside of the framework of their offense.
Let's face it, their OL is pedestrian, at best. Wilson is almost always under pressure when trying to throw. Starting for their OL is NOT an indicator of being a good player. Their WRs and TE's are sub-standard. Wilson is very intelligent and makes plays out of nothing. He is able to do so when they most need them.
Wilson is one of the guys [along w/Fran Tarkenton] that I compared Manziel to during the draft.
Who knows..........maybe it will actually work out for once.
I make no bones about being a Manziel lover. His passion and leadership the past two seasons at college station was far and away the best out of any QB in last year or the year before draft.
I think both of our QB's are very passionate guys. Something we haven't seen in a long time. We've had a lot of Derek Anderson, Brady Quinn and Brandon Weeden, aww shucks, kind of players.
Quote: No? It was in the draft forum and was always at the top of the page.
The fact that Farmer appears to have put the pick to good use still doesn't mean it was a great trade... I also remember quite a few people saying that trading for future picks strictly because we might to use them to move up to get a QB was not a bad idea...
Quote: I don't disagree, but if you listen and read all of the training camp stuff. You haven't heard a lot of "Hoyer threw for a TD". I mean very little of it, maybe that's just the media being the media. Who knows.
From what I've heard the defense has been dominating the offense regardless of who was playing on O... hope that is because the defense is so strong and not because the offense is not.
Quote: I know Mike Pettine said giving Manziel 1st team reps yesterday was "part of the plan". I just don't buy that, give a guy first team reps in a game week? It had nothing to do with the fact that he was just more productive last week? Sounds like coach speak to me.
Preseason week 1 they don't care that there is a game. They aren't game planning for it much, if at all. They are still evaluating and trying to get things running smoothly. I firmly believe it was part of the plan to get him some first team reps whether he "earned them" or not...
That said, language is starting to change. A week ago Hoyer was the clear #1.. now Pettine said he is still the "likely starter" against the Lions this week... I just sincerely hope that if Manziel is catching Hoyer that its because he is playing better and for no other reason.
After seeing this years class compared to last years class, my only criticism was why didnt Banner trade all of last years picks for guys in this draft lol. A 4th in this years class talent wise was equal to a late first in last years.
I argued then---and will now---that it was not the horrific trade that many made it out to be. In fact, I think it was a good trade---even at the time---because the 2014 draft was so much better than the 2013 draft class.
That particular draft class was one of the weakest of all-time. This year's class was lauded by many as one of stronger drafts in a long, long time.
Quote: I know Mike Pettine said giving Manziel 1st team reps yesterday was "part of the plan". I just don't buy that, give a guy first team reps in a game week?
He actually started giving Johnny 1st team reps last week after the day off. So this isn't much new. Media Hype is what it sounds like to me. Pettine has said all along that Manziel will get reps with the first team.
As for it being game week, it's preseason, if you are going to experiment, this is as good a week to do it as any.
My NFL Mobil app just alerted me that Manziel is behind Hoyer on the depth chart for the game this week... FWIW
Quote: I remember it. Trading with the enemy, giving up picks in a "strong" draft. Not sure how long it was, but I remember people crying a LOT about it.
I have and still expect Manziel to be the starter. I just think he is much more dynamic than Hoyer.
There definitely was that thread. There were a lot of people whining about giving up a pick to the steelers and letting them get a potential future HOFer
But there were just as many people on the other side arguing that we get a pick a round earlier in a much deeper draft. A very heated discussion if I remember correctly. Definitely not one-sided.
Quote: I remember it. Trading with the enemy, giving up picks in a "strong" draft. Not sure how long it was, but I remember people crying a LOT about it.
I have and still expect Manziel to be the starter. I just think he is much more dynamic than Hoyer.
There definitely was that thread. There were a lot of people whining about giving up a pick to the steelers and letting them get a potential future HOFer
But there were just as many people on the other side arguing that we get a pick a round earlier in a much deeper draft. A very heated discussion if I remember correctly. Definitely not one-sided.
I remember that as well. We let the Steelers grab a pro bowl safety ... idiot front office.
Not sure if this is the one you are all talking about, didn't have time to read every post here about this, but it was very easy to find, as the last couple of draft forums are just down the main page in the Arhives.
j/c ....... thought about a new thread called "QB Competition" ........ but figure it can start here.
Is anyone else hearing an overwhelming shift in media Browns coverage all suggesting Manziel is catching up to Hoyer - and that many feel he should start. I am really surprised. I thought it was something of a lock Hoyer would start.
That would mean Manziel is better than I had imagined. Good for Browns.
Is there a player the FO drafted in the first 3 rounds that isn't looking like he is going to contribute?? Time will tell - but it's encouraging compared to many former drafts.
Hell there is a chance we could have 6 or 7 rookies contributing this year and I think we will see Bitonio, Manziel, West, Kirksey and Gilbert all starting before this year is out. Desire is looking like he will be our nickel and Snead is already getting work with the ones as well and then we have Crowell coming on strong and the rookie DL from FSU stole the show at the scrimmage.
This class is looking special. We have to give Banner credit those trades last year getting those extra picks looks like are paying off huge dividends this year. Not just the drafted but we have a few undrafted that are making a name for themselves.
Quote: Hell there is a chance we could have 6 or 7 rookies contributing this year and I think we will see Bitonio, Manziel, West, Kirksey and Gilbert all starting before this year is out. Desire is looking like he will be our nickel and Snead is already getting work with the ones as well and then we have Crowell coming on strong and the rookie DL from FSU stole the show at the scrimmage.
This class is looking special. We have to give Banner credit those trades last year getting those extra picks looks like are paying off huge dividends this year. Not just the drafted but we have a few undrafted that are making a name for themselves.
Well also have to take into account that this was considered one of the deepest drafts in a long time...could be a lot of rookies across the league are confirming this, and I like it
Somebody should shove that In Billicks face...actually I'd love to shove it somewhere completely different.
Eli Manning an Overall #1 pick did not start the season - not until it was basically done at the 11th game.
Kosar probably an Overall #1 pick (we had to trade for the overall# 1 to get their rights) for the pick of Kosar in the supplemental draft. He didn't start till Danielson got hurt mid season???
So what is all this Crapola about a kid who came out very early - just turned 21, was in a One read offense hardly ever under center - a 15 play chart worded in 101 Dick & Jane Language - See spot run. Now gets a War & Peace Novel and has to pick it all up.
A 22nd overall pick - But he has to start Day one or else be considered a BUST. right out of the mouth of that self proclaimed genius.
Quote: Not sure if this is the one you are all talking about, didn't have time to read every post here about this, but it was very easy to find, as the last couple of draft forums are just down the main page in the Arhives.
Quote: Not sure if this is the one you are all talking about, didn't have time to read every post here about this, but it was very easy to find, as the last couple of draft forums are just down the main page in the Arhives.
Quote: Not sure if this is the one you are all talking about, didn't have time to read every post here about this, but it was very easy to find, as the last couple of draft forums are just down the main page in the Arhives.
I considered starting a new thread but that's all the board needs, another JFF thread.
My pure football questions, imagine that...
If or when Manziel becomes the starter and teams are game planning against him. If the opposing teams designs a scheme to keep him in the pocket 1) what type of scheme might that be? 2) how might the Browns counter such a scheme?
As I'm writing this I recall that people point to last year's LSU game as an example of how to neutralize Manziel. So after work today I'll take a look at that. Maybe some of you will also. So we can talk about any observations from that game along with any other ideas that interested posters might have.
What's funny is that JM is the back up in this first preseason game. Next one he will start and they will all be saying - he's on his way to be the starter as he "EARNED" that #1 QB spot...lol
What part of QB competition don't they get and that Pettine will make the final decision "BEFORE PRESEASON GAME #3" The last game and the only game the starters actually play a lot in the preseason.
Glad to hear JM is progressing. I've stated before he's very coachable and intelligent book smarts and football smarts.
I still think 2014 is Hoyer's year. If he struggles the first 3 games sure I expect JM to come in after the bye week.
Blast from the past regarding that old thread. I showed consistency in my understanding of the process with the FO. Happy about that. Thought Banner & Co. were doing the right thing...just like I do feel Farmer & Co. also is doing the right thing...just as I thought Heckert was doing the right thing. Nothing ever is perfect but this I do know. WE got a lot of amazing young talent never seen before on a Browns team in the New Era. From that old thread...wish McFadden didn't disappear in the 2013 season...Ok so the homer isn't exactly right on all things.
I did tout Bryant and Gilkey as late round picks that can develop into something special.
Btw...the two kids the Steelers and the other team in the 5th round...who did they take and how are they doing?
Vers n I were on the same page last year - this year the opposite. I thought our draft was pretty darn good. Maybe that Franchise QB...a very very gifted CB, a beat Boi for our OL. A RB that most are going gaga when they see him out there and when you got the Italian kid Tate... Fra - Gi - Lee It must be Italian. He will come in handy. Mac has switched...I know its not good for credibility to have been a homer all the time as we mire ourselves in mediocrity. I still think we are a team of destiny!
QBs that are relevant 2 of them...could be a Gold MIne for us. RBs best Unit I've seen here. OL - JT, Boi, Mack, Schwartz....all high picks and all could be considered Good to great after this season. Hey better than picking freaking WRs yeah that helped all those building years. WRs - yeah maybe no JoshG, but we never got FA like these, yeah they got to stay healthy to matter. But Hawkins is amazing. Burleson is maybe the best old vet WR we ever got. Right there with JJ in leadership. Austin healthy is a Pro Bowler. What kids will step up, its a position that is loaded with prospects that can surprise.
TE on that old thread almost all were yeah We don't have any TE...how did that work out as the TE they said we are going to go with and all the GM wannabees scoffed at that move...well he made the Pro Bowl - no the question is can we afford him in a 2nd contract!
JM - As long as he earns the starting position then I'm ok. But Eli ok he came in with the team 5-3...don't know what they ended up doing I don't remember that team finishing up well. Point is the "BRIDGE QB" had them 5-3 then the "OVERALL #1 PICK" came in (thought it was game 10? the earliest) Anyways doesn't change my point. Not many of those same nimrod Bozo so called sports Journalist or Expert analysis guys claimed ELI was a bust for not winning the starting spot.
This is the first time in a very long time I cannot remember panic already setting in in some quarters about the team. It's kind of weird. Anyone who is really watching what's happening in Berea sees at least some glimmers of hope and just a few places that might be a weakness. Even our purse swinging matches here are far more tame than some in the past.
Maybe that'll change after the Detroit game. Anything can happen. But I can't help but suspect that what leaves training camp after the final cuts will be a football team instead of another exercise in fear and loathing.
Manziel? The outside world wants to see him play because they've heard his name and who in the heck knows Brian Hoyer except a few die hards? I prefer to see Manziel sit until he just can't sit any more. He needs to take the job away from Hoyer.
I'd love to be optimistic but that was beaten out of me when we hired Mangini to coach the team... since then I've been watching and expecting the wheels to come off. I'll be happy when we finally buck that trend though!
I want the person that shows the most from scrimmage through those 2 preseason games to get the start. I say that for each position. Johny was the best QB at the scrimmage and he should be the best in those preseason games. Its not a knock on Hoyer but Johny is supposed to be the better QB.
Quote: I want the person that shows the most from scrimmage through those 2 preseason games to get the start. I say that for each position. Johny was the best QB at the scrimmage and he should be the best in those preseason games. Its not a knock on Hoyer but Johny is supposed to be the better QB.
I have mixed emotions. I wanted JM badly knowing he would be our franchise QB. I think Hoyer has the confidence of the players who were here last season. I think he will give us the best chance to execute an offense. On the other hand JM has that sixth sense that excitement to make things happen and in the reality tire out a Defense.
JM is not the better QB right now...but he has the better UPSIDE that is for sure. I get the urge for many to want that Manziel ERA to start. I actually am prepared to have this 2014 season to be Hoyer's - sign him to a new contract. Have JM beat him out in our NEXT Training camp. Have a QB hungry team make us a Trade we Cannot Refuse for Hoyer who would be our Back up!
I don't want Hoyer gone but I would not turn down 2 high draft picks in lieu of him That is how the rich get richer. Its what made the Pats a dynasty trading Bledsoe, Its what made the Cowboys a dynasty trading Herschel Walker. Hey, why not us...go from playoff team to Dynasty
Quote: I don't want Hoyer gone but I would not turn down 2 high draft picks in lieu of him
2 high round draft picks? I wouldn't turn that down either ...... but who is going to pay that?
Why would anyone pay that?
We signed Hoyer as a free agent who no one wanted last year. He had few even decent results to that point in his career. He then came to the Browns, and played a pair of games. In the 1st game, he has decidedly mixed results. In the 2nd, he played well against a team missing 3/4 of their secondary, He played well ...... but there were qualifying factors.
He has what .... 4 or 5 starts in his career? He has looked OK, and good in a pair of games, one against the worst pass defense in the NFL, and the other against a team missing most of their secondary,
Who is going to give us even one high pick for Hoyer, let alone 2? What team do you think would do so? What team do you propose we approach about such a deal?
Hoyer is a valuable player to us, because he has shown that he can be an effective backup.spot starter,even if he becomes nothing more. There is value in a player like that. That value is not 2 high draft picks though.
I think 2 high draft picks is a pipe dream of the highest level. I cannot imagine a team beign so QB starved as to throw away their future for a journeyman QB. I would welcome such a deal ..... but I don't see it happening.
I will be rooting for Manziel bigtime. Because if he does not live up to hype the Browns will lose three or more years.
Quarterbacks drafted in the first round are going to play. That is the law of the NFL. It is only a matter of when it happens.
I hope this draft works out and the players produce at the expected level.
The players signed in FA and the players selected after the first round I have no problem with.
For me I would have loved to be starting this season with Josh Gordon on the roster for the year paired with Sammy Watkins along with the Jordon Cameron and Hoyer and Bridgewater at quarterback.
Quote: I have mixed emotions. I wanted JM badly knowing he would be our franchise QB. I think Hoyer has the confidence of the players who were here last season. I think he will give us the best chance to execute an offense. On the other hand JM has that sixth sense that excitement to make things happen and in the reality tire out a Defense.
JM is not the better QB right now...but he has the better UPSIDE that is for sure. I get the urge for many to want that Manziel ERA to start. I actually am prepared to have this 2014 season to be Hoyer's - sign him to a new contract. Have JM beat him out in our NEXT Training camp. Have a QB hungry team make us a Trade we Cannot Refuse for Hoyer who would be our Back up!
I don't want Hoyer gone but I would not turn down 2 high draft picks in lieu of him That is how the rich get richer. Its what made the Pats a dynasty trading Bledsoe, Its what made the Cowboys a dynasty trading Herschel Walker. Hey, why not us...go from playoff team to Dynasty
I feel exactly the same Eotab. If Hoyer plays great then because he did it for the Browns the NFL will go gaga over him. I don't know about 2 picks for him but I bet we could land a high second or low first round for him if he does well enough to get us to 8-8.
I mean Manziel obviously has the higher ceiling. I just think it helps him in the long run not to start before the bye week at least. I feel like he needs his basic game skills to be better and more ingrained before they set him loose.
Quote: I will be rooting for Manziel bigtime. Because if he does not live up to hype the Browns will lose three or more years.
Quarterbacks drafted in the first round are going to play. That is the law of the NFL. It is only a matter of when it happens.
I hope this draft works out and the players produce at the expected level.
The players signed in FA and the players selected after the first round I have no problem with.
For me I would have loved to be starting this season with Josh Gordon on the roster for the year paired with Sammy Watkins along with the Jordon Cameron and Hoyer and Bridgewater at quarterback.
My dream draft had us taking Watkins at 4 or Evans after trading down, then BPA, then in round two taking Jimmy G.
I get that Gilbert might stud out but I wanted Watkins pretty bad =) I want to score POINTS!
The Browns named Brian Hoyer their starting quarterback for the first preseason game of the year on Wednesday, but left the door open for Johnny Manziel to get some work with the first team after spending two days this week practicing with the starters.
On Thursday, head coach Mike Pettine shut that door almost all the way. Pettine said that the plan for this week’s game against the Lions is for Hoyer to play with the first team while Manziel comes on with the second unit.
“I don’t think he will,” Pettine said, via Nate Ulrich of the Akron Beacon Journal. “I think we’re going to let Brian go. The circumstances could change that, obviously, but for this game, I think we’ll stick to the units as we’ve practiced. So Brian with the ones and Johnny with the twos.”
Pettine also said that the first team may play a bit more than is usual in the first preseason game because they are running a new offense, but that should still leave Manziel with plenty of snaps to make his case for the starting job. Pettine also said that it’s possible Manziel will start against the Redskins in the second preseason game, a decision which he could sway with a strong performance on Saturday night.
Come on Ytown...1. you shouldn't assume I'm stupid and I shouldn't assume you can read my mind.
Why would anyone pay that?
I'm pretty sure I said something totally different from what you think I said.
1. Hoyer is named the starter...JM our future. 2. In Lieu of Hoyer the starter we sign him to a nice 3 year contract. 3. Hoyer does well we get in or at least sniff the playoffs. 4. Next off season, JM studs out and wins the starting job outright...now Hoyer becomes our back up. 5. Teams some maybe desperate due to lack of or possibly injury to their starting QB. 6. They see the Browns has Hoyer as the back up to JM now (now being 2015 training camp) they offer us 2 2nd round picks for him.
I'm painting a scenario of 2014 being Hoyer's year for us and he does well 10-6.
They don't look at him as a UDFA with little experience. They look at him as a Starting QB.
Bledsoe now the back up to Brady got 2 first round picks in return...notice I suggest 2 2nd rounders not first.
Schaub - Vick backup and I think maybe 5 starts and not many wins...got 2 2nd rounders in trade.
Whitehurst? was River's back up in SD...they got 2 2nd rounders for I think for him. And I think Whitehurst threw maybe 10 passes in his career in mop up stuff??? If any.
NE used that pick and seem to still be parlaying it to draft day moves. But made a good playoff team (yep SB winner) into a Dynasty.
Atlanta - Took those picks and went from OK team to a powerhouse in the south (last season being a hiccup season)
Chargers - still waiting to what becomes of those picks yet. to help them...Their GM might not have fared well.
My point is not NOW - Next year after playing not 4 games but 20 and being 13-6 in them for a team that could not really win prior to Hoyer...for the position of QB to a team of Have nots...2 draft picks is nothing and I'm talking 2n round picks not first...but I wouldn't mind a 1st n 4th? Probable??? Yes for a team hitting its destiny
I see that scenario as being completely unlikely. (to be polite)
I would be stunned almost beyond words if things happen the way you have outlined.
This team is not yet on the level of the Niners or Seahawks, even though that is our goal.
Alex Smith took the Niners to the playoffs, and then played at an extremely high level until replaced by Kaepernick after an injury. The Chiefs gave up a 2nd, and a conditional pick which also wound up being another 2nd.
To get that 2nd 2nd round pick, the Chiefs had to be an 8 or more win team in 2013.
To compare:
Smith has had, in his last 4 seasons, with 67 TD and 27 TD.
Hoyer has had, in 5 seasons, 7 TD and 6 INT.
There really is no comparison, yet you are looking at a similar trade. (or better, if that 2nd pick isn't heavily conditioned)
Instead bring out the stats...All I care is that Hoyer was 3-0 n what 5td w/3 int...last year and we got this one coming up. You ASSume he's going to bomb. Well duh...of course we don't get a trade. And you site Alex Smith as the example and ignore Shaub and Whitehurst???
People give up a lot for a QB. And I'm talking about Hoyer playing Good, solid Football. JM has "Great in him" why he will take over in the future.
But Good n Solid will have teams a calling. polite...hey thinking somebody is stupid is just that there is no polite about it.
But I politely say to you...If Hoyer is as Good a QB as I think he is. You don't think people won't offer us something to pry him away? Then you do not have a grasp at what importance this league puts in a QB.
And yes, I'm speculating big time. If you state...no no it will not happen Hoyer is not that good. I simply say why not. How do you know. Hey in a short stint...he had a very very high % of our wins last season with 16 games how are you going to tell me he cannot win enough to have heads turn???
If you are stating even if it does happen and we got 9-7 10-6 with Hoyer - people won't offer us that much cause after all the Chiefs only gave up what? 2 2nd rounders for Smith... I forgot...what was your argument on that again - you mean the back up got 2 high picks?
I'm not saying you got to agree with me. But don't mock me with IT can't happen. It has happened and will happen again. People need that QB pure and simple!
Dallas btw will be looking for one soon. Romo ain't got much more time in him
Quote: I see that scenario as being completely unlikely. (to be polite)
I would be stunned almost beyond words if things happen the way you have outlined.
This team is not yet on the level of the Niners or Seahawks, even though that is our goal.
Alex Smith took the Niners to the playoffs, and then played at an extremely high level until replaced by Kaepernick after an injury. The Chiefs gave up a 2nd, and a conditional pick which also wound up being another 2nd.
To get that 2nd 2nd round pick, the Chiefs had to be an 8 or more win team in 2013.
To compare:
Smith has had, in his last 4 seasons, with 67 TD and 27 TD.
Hoyer has had, in 5 seasons, 7 TD and 6 INT.
There really is no comparison, yet you are looking at a similar trade. (or better, if that 2nd pick isn't heavily conditioned)
The comparison certainly holds true... IF Hoyer studs out this year. That is what Tab is saying. Pretty clearly too I must say. Maybe you think it's unlikely Hoyer studs out and I think Tab would agree with that... it isn't the likely outcome (possible but unlikely). But it is a nice scenario to hope for and I don't see why that is such a problem for some people. Why the barbs come out over a fan's speculation of possibly having some good fortune for once.
Truth is the "likely" scenario is that we are a terrible team again winning maybe 6 games. It's "likely" both Hoyer and JFF struggle mightily. Struggling has been the norm for this franchise and until that changes anyone expecting anything close to a real turnaround is expecting something that is "completely unlikely". Awesome. So now I'm depressed. Happy?
I don't blame anyone thinking the other scenario is the probable outcome.
I have hope cause I think Hoyer gets it. Has a better arm than Holcomb and more talent. The team believes in him....my only MAJOR negative is the system is new and that always retards the Offensive Flow. That is my negative X factor that can put a monkey wrench in this scenario. I don't want to even think of injuries.
But as I stated..more so for the young fans who have had no other history with the Browns than the scenario you laid out and what you expect. I get it and won't chastise you. It is what it is. I just have a feeling about this group of guys...and our future. I like like, Farmer, really like like Pettine, even Shanahan... Like the players and how we excel inside where football is still determined.
This Hoyer scenario as Unlikely something that good happens to the Browns. It can easily happen if the wheels don't come off. We'll see - possibly a Gordon decision in our favor confirms my destiny talk...
Hoyer was 3-0, but left that 3rd "win" while trailing 7-0 in that game.
He played against an awful Vikings team. AWFUL. He threw 3 INT against a team that grabbed a total of 12 for the whole year! Think about that. 1/4 of all of the INT throws against the Vikings last year, were thrown by Brian Hoyer, in one game. They also allowed 37 TD passes last year. That defense stunk. He did OK though ... with 3 TD in addition to those 3 INT.
He was set up to succeed by being put in against the worth passing defense in the NFL last year, and in the 1st game in which we got back out best offensive weapon. (Gordon)
He then played against a Bengals team that was missing 3 of their 4 starters in their secondary. He played very well in that game, but to somehow pretend that there weren't conditions that affected how and why he played as he did is ridiculous.
In the Bills game, he then went 2-4 for 25 yards, (granted, with a drop) and got hurt. The Bills led the game 7-0 when he went down with an injury.
Hoyer gave the team a boost. I don't think that anyone would dispute that. However, let's not pretend that he was Tom Brady. He did some nice things, and some not so nice things.
As far as having a large % of our wins ....... well, on a 4 win team, really?
Look, I would love to see everything go so perfectly that we wind up trading Hoyer for a pair of 2nd round picks, and Manziel knocks the league on its collective ass. I do think that Manziel has the talent to possibly do the 2nd part ...... but the 1st part ......? That's where I have major questions. I just don't see anyone as valuing Hoyer that highly. Not with one year under Center. (basically)
Quote: Vers n I were on the same page last year - this year the opposite. I thought our draft was pretty darn good.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but are you saying that I think this year's draft sucks? I have never said that. I have never even insinuated that. I actually thought it was a pretty good draft.
You leave a lot out when retelling the Hoyer story and you are the king of hyperbole. Minnesota beat Pittsburgh, something we could not do. They beat the Bears. They had a better record than we did. You are acting like they are McCay's Tampa Bay team where he said he was in favor of his team's execution.
You mentioned the drop against Buffalo, but you didn't mention that it was a perfect pass that would have resulted in an 80 yard TD if Gordon wouldn't have dropped it.
You keep making a big deal about the Bengals' injuries. But, other teams never played w/injuries. How about Buffalo the following week? You sure praised Weeden for "leading us to a win."
You pick and choose and then keep driving in the points that suit your argument while ignoring other facts.
Quote: You pick and choose and then keep driving in the points that suit your argument while ignoring other facts.
I see a lot of this here at DT.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that we're all guilty of it, from time to time. I'm certain that I've been guilty of it over the years. Memory can be selective, just as observations can be subjective.
Heck, if we all had photographic memories and a dominant 'truth gene,' 90% of these threads probably wouldn't exist (or at least, they'd 'peter out' after a page or two).
Perfect recent example: some called the Barnidge 'circus catch' a bad throw by the QB. Others said it was a great back-shoulder placement. If fans can see 2 different things on a single play, it stands to reason that they'll "misremember" lots of stuff over the course of seasons. Couple that with a certainty that they are right.... and you get what was just described.
Shucks, son... ain't nothin' but "Human Nature on display"...
For me, half the fun in coming here is to hear all the spin... from all the various angles. Makes for some lively discussions.
Quote: For me, half the fun in coming here is to hear all the spin... from all the various angles.
For me, it's almost 100% of the fun. The are some nuggets of wisdom buried in that spin, especially in the interpretations of what the media feeds us. Despite the fact that opposing posters will stop at nothing to be "right" and prove the other wrong, many times both sides offer good insight. I learn much more here than I do from Grossi, Cabot or Carucci.
Quote: You leave a lot out when retelling the Hoyer story and you are the king of hyperbole. Minnesota beat Pittsburgh, something we could not do. They beat the Bears. They had a better record than we did. You are acting like they are McCay's Tampa Bay team where he said he was in favor of his team's execution.
You mentioned the drop against Buffalo, but you didn't mention that it was a perfect pass that would have resulted in an 80 yard TD if Gordon wouldn't have dropped it.
You keep making a big deal about the Bengals' injuries. But, other teams never played w/injuries. How about Buffalo the following week? You sure praised Weeden for "leading us to a win."
You pick and choose and then keep driving in the points that suit your argument while ignoring other facts.
We had new England beat too, until a phantom DPI call.
So what?
Pittsburgh was an 8-8 team last year. They lost their 1st 4 in a row. (including against Minnesota) Just because a team beat another team doesn't make them better. We beat the Patriots ad Saints in back to back weeks under Mangini. Were we better than those 2 teams?
I said that he had a pass dropped in teh Buffalo game, that should have been caught. Sorry if I didn't go into as much detail as you wish I would have.
As far as the Buffalo game, I freely admit that we won that game after knocking their starting QB out. So what? That bottom line is that thigns happen in football games, and you win, or lose them. They don't put asterisks next to the scores. However, when we look at a game, and who played how, we do have to look at the circumstances of the game. Alex Smith was a winning QB with the Nners in his last 2 years there. He still got dumped by the team. There are reasons why the team chose Kaepernick over Smith ... and it wasn't all a raw winning percentage.
In the end, though .... are you really telling me that who a player faces doesn't make a difference in how you view his performance? Don't you look at a 100 yard rushing performance differently if it comes against the Niners, or against the Jacksonville? Really? How about if the Niners had played that game missing Bowman, Aldon Smith,and Ahmad Brooks? Are you really telling me that you wouldn't look at such a performance differently than if those players were all in the game?
I somehow doubt it. We always examine performance based on the bigger picture.
Quote: On those days that we beat them, we were clearly better...
Also, didn't Atl get two 2nds for Schaub before he ever played a game?
I had to google that. He played six games his rookie year and the rest of the time was on the bench or holding kicks. He was backing up Vick at the time. They swapped first round picks (#8 from houston #10 from atlanta) and Atlanta gave up 2nd round picks in 07 and 08.
"Schaub was introduced to his new team at a press conference on March 22, 2007, and the same day, the Texans released David Carr, opening the door for Schaub to become their long-term starter."
Yada yada...for a smart guy I'm shocked you don't get it???
The obvious conception of my scenario is the future as in 2014. On his 2013 2+ game 3-0 record book won't get us SQUAT! Why are you trying to claim that is my premise of getting picks for him in trade.
I'll spell it out for you...not my fault but you refuse to see it.
1. Hoyer starts...very possible 2. Hoyer has success in 2014 so that he plays the season (if he stumbles its over JM comes in) So I'm stating for Hoyer to play the entire season we have to be in a Post Season Hunt we will have to end up winning 9-10 games. 3. We sign him to at least a 3 year contract so he is not a FA in 2015 n we get nothing. 4. In 2015 when JM "WINS" the starting QB position, Hoyer becomes "AVAILABLE"
Under those circumstances...and ONLY THOSE circumstances. I think we will have to make a hard decision as teams will try to pry HOYER AWAY from us!
jmho don't try to change my scenario to make me look absurd. I would think the way you are reacting that this upsets you cause Manziel sits in 2014??? I am confused cause normally you are very centered
Quote: Vers n I were on the same page last year - this year the opposite. I thought our draft was pretty darn good.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but are you saying that I think this year's draft sucks? I have never said that. I have never even insinuated that. I actually thought it was a pretty good draft.
Well then that might be the perfect definition of: ASSume. lol
Fine ..... if all of that happens ...... which I find to be incredibly unlikely, then maybe your scenario comes to pass.
However, i find it extremely unlikely that Hoyer signs an extension at this point. He wants to start. Period. If he can't find a starting gig elsewhere, then he would accept being a backup here ..... but he's not going to sign back with us with Manziel around. If Hoyer has a solid year, then he is going to look into either signing here, if the Browns move Manziel, or signing elsewhere as the starter.
I just find your premise to be extremely unlikely from the very start. He's not going to re-sign with us in 2015 unless he is the starter. Period. If he still has to be in "competition", then he's going to move on. If he has a good to better than good year, then someone is going to give him a dal to be their starter. I just don't see the basics of your premise as being sound.
Fine ..... if all of that happens ...... which I find to be incredibly unlikely, then maybe your scenario comes to pass.
That's all I was implying and I have been stating that scenario to happen to us cause its the benefit of having two.
As for your speculation...Hoyer won't start here. That is sort of presented as fact???
Why wouldn't Hoyer sign here? After all he had major success with us (in the preend scenario) how is he to know if JM will beat him out in training camp or not. Nobody thought Rivers was going to sit as long as he did. Nobody thought Brees was going to have the success that he did. It just happened right when they were giving up on Brees.
Why wouldn't he think he had the Starting job here after a season like that. See your entire speculation on this is centered around JM great and BH bad...I'm saying it might not be black and white and we get a 3 year deal by this seasons end. Not wait till March!
jmho Anything is possible cause its happened to other teams why not us.
Quote: Fine ..... if all of that happens ...... which I find to be incredibly unlikely, then maybe your scenario comes to pass.
However, i find it extremely unlikely that Hoyer signs an extension at this point. He wants to start. Period. If he can't find a starting gig elsewhere, then he would accept being a backup here ..... but he's not going to sign back with us with Manziel around. If Hoyer has a solid year, then he is going to look into either signing here, if the Browns move Manziel, or signing elsewhere as the starter.
I just find your premise to be extremely unlikely from the very start. He's not going to re-sign with us in 2015 unless he is the starter. Period. If he still has to be in "competition", then he's going to move on. If he has a good to better than good year, then someone is going to give him a dal to be their starter. I just don't see the basics of your premise as being sound.
We'll see.
Nah.. YOUR scenario is the unlikely one now. Remember, under Tab's scenario Hoyer studs out and we are in a playoff hunt. Under that scenario Hoyer comes back as the starter for starting QB money even with JFF still around. He'd have contract language protecting him from a trade to an undesirable team (basically he'd have to agree to any trades) but Hoyer loves CLE and isn't going to just give up the job because JFF MIGHT beat him out in the next training camp. Really is a crazy scenario you have posed there. It assumes Hoyer has little confidence in his own abilities which just doesn't fit Tab's scenario.
What I believe will happen is that Manziel will start the season as the starting QB, and will be the starter for the entire season. Hoyer will search for a starting gig after this season, and will re-sign here only if he can't find one elsewhere.
That's the way I see things unfolding.
We each see things differently .... and that's fine. I just can't see any realistic scenario where Hoyer re-signs with us, and #1, we then trade him right away, (which would be a horrible message for anyone we re-sign in the future) and #2, we get a pair of high draft picks in return.
I just don't see any way those 2 things happen ..... but we do all see things differently.
We'll see whose guesses come closest to what actually happens.
I was looking forward to Hoyer's 3rd game, I still am. I'm not sure how people give him that Bills win, he was 1 of 11 and hadn't scored any points when he went down. Weeden should be the one credited with that win as his last win in a Browns uni. I just hope Hoyer can handle it because I really don't believe that Manziel is mature enough to handle the position yet.
I think Johnny is extremely bright, mature enough to run this team and head and shoulders superior athletically over Hoyer. I do wish Hoyer the best as I like the local guys but JF is special.
Quote: I think that Manziel is at least as mature as Ben Roethlisberger was as a rookie ..... and he went 15-1, and went to the AFC Championship game.
Two entirely different teams Ytown. Pittsburgh was loaded at receiver, RB, Oline, Dline, LB's.. They were about as close to only being a QB away. That's it.
I'm not sure you can say that about the Browns at this point.
Big Ben started on a team ready to win...and didn't lose games for them. JM is the best QB prospect we have had here since 1999.
If I see Hoyer doing well for us doesn't mean JM is a bust like the BOZOS claim. My scenario is not cause of love of Hoyer or JM but simply for the Browns that would be our best case scenario.
Tulsa...I won't go into possible reason why. But the reason 3-0 is mentioned with Hoyer cause that is how the NFL does the official stats. You start...W or L goes on your record no matter what. There is no 5 innings clause in football.
Possible reasons why...I've been chastise for trying to give plausible reasons before so I'll skip it. I usually put a 2 or 3 win for people to choose their own preference. In most cases its meaningless in the football discussion.
Fact is we won all the games he started in and that is 100% in a season that ended up with only 4 wins. Why I do have hopes for Hoyer's success. He brought the best out of our team that was woeful in just about all games that he was not on the field. 1-12 in those games. Weeden, hey maybe he's a relief pitcher not a starter?
Quote: I think Johnny is extremely bright, mature enough to run this team and head and shoulders superior athletically over Hoyer. I do wish Hoyer the best as I like the local guys but JF is special.
He will open the season.
I wouldn't say head and shoulders better than Hoyer in the most important attribute and that's the mental part of the game.
If we are going to be running the ball a lot then a stronger arm don't make much difference. Hoyer throws a beautiful ball up to 35 yards. That's all he needs too because 95% of our passes will be under 30 yards.
If johnny starts it will be because Hoyer fell apart. I really don't see him having a shot at beating out Hoyer this year. Now an injury might open the door to him later but his back yard scrambling isn't going to work against non vanilla defenses once the real season starts. Petine wants to win through defense which means he wants someone who will be careful with the ball. Johnny is still too recklas as he spreads his wings.
I honestly think that Manziel will develop into a much, much better QB if it takes him a year or two to win the starting job. He will be forced to learn aspects of the game he has not had to. He will become MUCH better at reading defenses being an understudy to Hoyer. His pocket passing will be fine tuned more before they let him loose but he will find he doesn't need to run around so much because he will know whats going on with the defense and be able to anticipate where WRs will be open at. He will know what it takes to win the job and what it takes to keep it.
If he starts game 1 then he will just think he can skate along and most likely won't work as hard IMHO. I think it will stunt his potential which will be very sad to me because he could have a very high ceiling and be something special.
It's up to the coaches though so I hope Hoyer plays well enough to be our starter and buy Johnny some time to build up his skills.
Quote: I think Johnny is extremely bright, mature enough to run this team and head and shoulders superior athletically over Hoyer. I do wish Hoyer the best as I like the local guys but JF is special.
He will open the season.
I can't disagree with you on any of that, except to say, JM hasn't shown he's better than Hoyer at this point.
I'd say the odds of him doing so are high, I just don't know how long it's going to take.
Quote: That bottom line is that thigns happen in football games, and you win, or lose them.
LOL..........you just contradicted yourself. You keep harping on all this crap that was in Hoyer's favor. Then you come back and say that things happen in a football game and you either win or lose them.
Look, I agree w/you that Manziel has a way better chance of being the long term starter in Cleveland. Not arguing that, but whereas you used to make excuses for Weeden's poor play, you are now making excuses for Hoyer's good play.
And I remember you--and others--also making a huge deal about Gordon being back in the line-up for the Viking's game. Funny how that talk quieted down after Weeden came back in the line-up.
You can keep trying to take away Hoyer's wins, but the fact is that he won both games in which he played from start to finish.
Oh.........and you keep saying "we'll see" to tab. You are going to bring it up again if Manziel starts? I think it's a pretty safe bet picking Manziel. He will start at some point. They didn't draft him to be a back-up qb. Did "we see" about the LeBron signing? Did "we see" about the Love trade? You said I couldn't read and a bunch of you were saying I didn't know basketball. Not one of you has said a word, because it freaking played out EXACTLY the way I said it should. Yeah, we saw and you never owned up, so I hope you don't rub tab's face in it.
Quote: In fact, I'd go so far as to say that we're all guilty of it, from time to time. I'm certain that I've been guilty of it over the years. Memory can be selective, just as observations can be subjective.
We are, and I am including myself in that group. My post was more to refute all the nonsense about Hoyer only winning because he played a horrible team and a team that was so beat up that it didn't have a chance. He has mentioned those points over and over and over and sometimes, if those opinions aren't checked, other people begin to take them as gospel.
I have no problems w/him not liking Hoyer. I just want to keep it real.
Quote: I was looking forward to Hoyer's 3rd game, I still am. I'm not sure how people give him that Bills win, he was 1 of 11 and hadn't scored any points when he went down.
The stats are factual and true. BUT- if memory serves, Hoyer's injury came just as he (and the team) were just starting to "heat up." I remember the energy spike when we put together a few consecutive plays. It really felt like things were turning around at that point. (Wasn't that 'fateful scramble' a first-down conversion?)
I know his stats don't inspire overconfidence, but I really liked how the team played while he was in. For that reason alone, I'm looking forward to this preseason.... just to see if that same chemistry can be recreated.
That said, Manziel intrigues me too- and I'm looking forward to seeimg him with the "1's" at some point in August.
I'll be cool with whomever gets tapped for the starter- I gots no fave Dawg in this fight-
I don't care who starts - and I'll add this caveat: I'm pulling for Hoyer because he's a home grown Browns fan - and now player. Not many of you will believe it, but I'm a sentimental schmuck.
With that said, I'm behind whomever starts. I happen to believe it will be Hoyer based on his experience........... What does that mean? We've all seen and heard about the game "slowing down" as players get experience. Last year, in his 2 and 1/4 games or so, Hoyer proved to be decent. The team seemed to play better with him at qb.
On the other hand, that's just too little of a "starting qb history" to translate that into "he'll do great" this year, I understand that.
Hoyer may be far from a star quarterback......Johnny is an unknown. As we all have to do - I'll trust the coaches to make the right decisions. In other words, I don't want JM starting because he's JM - I want the best qb starting.
Hey Vers... thanks for the catch on the stats. Just for my own info, do you (or any other Dawgs) remember the "game flow" as I described it? I don't have the game available to re-watch, so I'm going off memory here.
By Dan Labbe, Northeast Ohio Media Group on August 08, 2014 at 6:00 AM, updated August 08, 2014 at 11:46 AM
BEREA, Ohio -- The Browns are off on Friday and take the field for their first preseason game on Saturday night. What better time to update our quarterback chart?
As part of our training camp coverage, we're charting how each quarterback is performing in camp so far. It's not meant to be an end-all evaluation. It's just a piece of the puzzle and you can fit it into your own evaluation however you see fit.
Some disclaimers:
We are only tracking passes thrown in 11-on-11. It's the closest simulation to real football in training camp practices.
We're not noting dropped passes. We don't know if a wrong route was run. We're simply tracking complete/incomplete and estimating yardages. Quarterbacks aren't live right now. They haven't been hit.
Unlike a regular season game -- or even a preseason game -- we don't have access to tape or live stats. We can't always tell if a receiver stayed in bounds or if there was a penalty and who it was against. We're eyeballing things.
Since, for the most part, practices don't feature live tackling, yardages are mostly how far the ball traveled in the air and don't account for YAC.
So, again, take this chart for what it is. It's divided into nine categories for each quarterback: left-center-right across the top, 20+ yards, 10-20 yards and 0-10 yards down the side.
Hoyer in 11-on-11 Length Left Center Right 20 yds. plus 3-5 3-4 5-11 10-20 yds. 2-5 13-22 6-12 Under 10 yds. 22-33 11-19 10-19 Totals 27-43 27-45 21-42 Overall 75-130
Manziel in 11-on-11 Length Left Center Right 20 yds. plus 3-5 0-0 3-4 10-20 yds. 1-8 11-20 7-13 Under 10 yds. 5-17 7-10 20-27 Totals 9-30 18-30 30-44 Overall 57-104
Quote: I think that Manziel is at least as mature as Ben Roethlisberger was as a rookie ..... and he went 15-1, and went to the AFC Championship game.
Two entirely different teams Ytown. Pittsburgh was loaded at receiver, RB, Oline, Dline, LB's.. They were about as close to only being a QB away. That's it.
I'm not sure you can say that about the Browns at this point.
I was speaking more to the issue of maturity than anything else.
Here is the play by play of Hoyer's drives: [Btw: I put my own comment in on Gordon's drop, just so you know when it occurred.]
Quote: 2-D.Carpenter kicks 71 yards from BUF 35 to CLE -6. 18-G.Little to CLE 8 for 14 yards (81-M.Easley). 1-10-CLE 8 (14:57) 26-W.McGahee left guard to CLE 10 for 2 yards (50-K.Alonso; 95-K.Williams). 2-8-CLE 10 (14:24) 6-B.Hoyer pass incomplete deep left to 12-J.Gordon. [THIS IS THE ONE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SURE TD HAD JG CAUGHT IT.] 3-8-CLE 10 (14:19) (Shotgun) 6-B.Hoyer pass incomplete deep right to 18-G.Little.
4-8-CLE 10 (14:14) (Punt formation) 5-S.Lanning punts 47 yards to BUF 43, Center-57-C.Yount. 35-J.Leonhard to CLE 32 for 25 yards (21-C.Owens).
Buffalo Bills at 14:01 1-10-CLE 32 (14:01) 22-F.Jackson right guard to CLE 30 for 2 yards (43-T.Ward). 2-8-CLE 30 (13:28) 11-T.Graham pass incomplete deep right to 13-S.Johnson. PENALTY on CLE-23-J.Haden, Defensive Pass Interference, 29 yards, enforced at CLE 30 - No Play. end around wide receiver pass 1-1-CLE 1 (13:21) 22-F.Jackson left guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. 2-D.Carpenter extra point is GOOD, Center-65-G.Sanborn, Holder-6-S.Powell.
BUF 7 CLE 0 Plays: 2 Possession: 0:45
Cleveland Browns at 13:16 2-D.Carpenter kicks 73 yards from BUF 35 to CLE -8. 18-G.Little to CLE 10 for 18 yards (15-C.Hogan).
1-10-CLE 10 (13:13) (Shotgun) 6-B.Hoyer pass short right to 15-D.Bess ran ob at CLE 22 for 12 yards. 1-10-CLE 22 (12:45) 6-B.Hoyer pass short middle to 15-D.Bess to CLE 35 for 13 yards (25-D.Searcy). 1-10-CLE 35 (12:11) (Shotgun) 26-W.McGahee right guard to CLE 36 for 1 yard (99-M.Dareus). 2-9-CLE 36 (11:33) (Shotgun) 6-B.Hoyer scrambles right end to CLE 47 for 11 yards (50-K.Alonso). CLE-6-B.Hoyer was injured during the play. He is Out.
Quote: LOL..........you just contradicted yourself. You keep harping on all this crap that was in Hoyer's favor. Then you come back and say that things happen in a football game and you either win or lose them.
Actually, I didn't. Things happen in games. They happen in every game. Eventually, like as in over the course of a full season, things even out.
That does not mean that you look at a players performance irrespective of who he played against, and the conditions. I mean, if a CB, for example, covers AJ Green ..... or some street free agent, then that has to be taken into account as far as his results. A guy who gives up 6 catches for 75 yards and a TD against AJ Green would have had a far better game than the guy who gave up 4 catches for 50 yards and a TD against the "no name" free agent.
In the Mangini era, we beat the Patriots and Saints back to back. That didn't make Colt McCoy the savior of Cleveland football. It was 2 games, and you have to look at the specifics of the games in a small sample size, and be careful not to overemphasize what the player did in just a game or 2,
Further, there is an ebb and flow o every season, and the Vikings caught the Steelers in a 0-4 ebb. (well, IIRC, they made it 0-4 after playing the Steelers)
As far as the rest ..... I don't think that I ever said "you don't know basketball" to you. If you can find that, I'll certainly apologize, because that's not something I would say to someone...... at least not past the post preview point. I will admit to having said a lot of really nasty things to people ........ that I erased after I wrote them out and laughed about them ...... using them as a form of catharsis.lol
No offense to you, or to Mr Labbe, but this is about as worthless an endeavor as there is. Players, hopefully, progress as camp goes on. Further, there is a huge difference in playing with the 1s and 2s ...... and drop and incorrectly run routes are a consideration, at least to the coaches. Also, Manziel started out well behind, as he had no experience in an NFL offense, and had to learn to play under Center from scratch, and so on.
Using his "Raw numbers", Hoyer completed 57.7% of his passes, and Manziel 54.8%. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing. lol
YTown...........I understand the game just fine. I've been around it enough to understand it. I know things happen in the course of a game, YTown.
You can politic all you want, but who do you think you are kidding? You can point out how PATHETIC Minni was and harp on the Bengals missing starters, but do you really believe that people did not watch the games?
Anyone w/even a partial clue could see the difference of how Hoyer played vs Weeden. Anyone w/an observatory skills could see how much more life the rest of the players had when Hoyer was in there. You can keep making excuses as to why he succeeded, but I am pretty sure you didn't like what Hoyer did because it made Weeden look like who he really is. And you hitched your wagon to Weeden so strongly, you had no other recourse other than to belittle Hoyer's performances.
The crazy thing is you were constantly making excuses for Weeden's poor play and then you turned around and made excuses for Hoyer's good play. I really don't want to call you out on this anymore. Just let it go.
Let's just focus on what Hoyer and Manziel are doing this year. Okay? I don't think Hoyer is playing well. I think the knee is a mental hurdle that he keeps tripping over. I could be wrong........that is total speculation, but that is the feeling I am getting.
Hoyer in 11-on-11 Length Left Center Right 20 yds. plus 3-5 3-4 5-11 10-20 yds. 2-5 13-22 6-12 Under 10 yds. 22-33 11-19 10-19 Totals 27-43 27-45 21-42 Overall 75-130
Manziel in 11-on-11 Length Left Center Right 20 yds. plus 3-5 0-0 3-4 10-20 yds. 1-8 11-20 7-13 Under 10 yds. 5-17 7-10 20-27 Totals 9-30 18-30 30-44 Overall 57-104
That kind of surprises me. Hoyer is throwing the ball deep a LOT more. He is also spreading it around a lot more. That gives me the impression he is seeing the field well.
Manziel seems to favor the right quite a bit and is horribly inaccurate on the left. No deep balls over mid? I kind of expected that considering Manziel like to roll out to the right a lot and when doing that its hard to throw across the body to the left accurately. This is why he needs to learn to throw more from the pocket.
Just going by results regardless of excuses Hoyer is playing a lot better.
I think it is pretty dangerous to use those stats to draw any conclusions. Let's watch these guys in preseason and make up our own minds. LOL............we'll probably all disagree anyway.
Wait.....that was wrong. Leave out the "probably."
Not picking on you, but I have to ask -- I see a lot of people saying "Manziel hasn't shown enough" but they haven't been to camp.
I guess I just don't understand, because everything I've read from National and local guys is that Manziel is winning the job.
I've gotten the vibe that they went into camp with the mindset of Johnny Manziel will not be the starter Week 1, but that Manziel is flat out winning the job (And now there's "competition")
That's everything I've read and a couple people I've talked to who have been there have said the same things.
I'm just curious if you've read something different, or what that makes you think "Manziel hasn't shown enough"
I think it will still hold true. I saw much of the same thing in the college games I watched him playing. Those throws across the body are going to haunt him when the real defenses come out to play.
I think with coaching he can overcome it but I just don't think it will be this year. That's just my opinion though. I said the same before the draft so it's not like I am being inconsistent in my thoughts just because we drafted him. I hope very much he overcomes those issues.
They already know he can throw it good on the run so IMHO his practice should focus on making him stay in the pocket more.
Quote: You can point out how PATHETIC Minni was and harp on the Bengals missing starters, but do you really believe that people did not watch the games?
I would hope that people take all factors into account when evaluating players, and, in fact, what they see on the field certainly plays a huge part .... but who the teams played has to as well. If you play the Super Bowl Ravens, for example, success will have a very different appearance than playing the 2013 Vikings. That is my point, and I think that is absolutely is a valid one.
Quote: Anyone w/even a partial clue could see the difference of how Hoyer played vs Weeden.
I never said that Hoyer wasn't a vast improvement over Weeden. Weeden is the past. That is not in dispute.
Quote: Anyone w/an observatory skills could see how much more life the rest of the players had when Hoyer was in there.
This point is not in question. Hoyer definitely knew/knows how to work the whole team as a leader. His leadership is not in dispute.
Quote: You can keep making excuses as to why he succeeded, but I am pretty sure you didn't like what Hoyer did because it made Weeden look like who he really is.
Quite an assumption on your part. I want a winning team .... and I don't care if we accomplish that by bringing back Colt McCoy and Charlie Frye as a 2 headed QB to get there. (though I would still have my doubts such a thing would work)
Quote: And you hitched your wagon to Weeden so strongly, you had no other recourse other than to belittle Hoyer's performances.
Absolutely, 100% wrong. I do not consider a reasoned observation and evaluation of a player to be belittling. Should I say that you merely belittled Weeden ..... or did you evaluate what you saw?
It does seem like you sometimes to try to belittle others to hold up your opinion sometimes. I honestly do believe that. Instead of arguing points, you throw snide comments in. I'm not sure why that is.
Quote: I think the knee is a mental hurdle that he keeps tripping over.
Yet he did get hit on the knee the other day, and came through 100%. He said that he was amazed that he didn't even have a hint of pain the next day.
Just because I think that Hoyer had certain things that helped account for his (somewhat mixed, though promising) performance, doesn't mean that I think that he is a talentless bum, who will never be able to do anything at all. What it does mean is that while he did accomplish some good in his time starting last year, and while he definitely demonstrated leadership at the QB spot, there were also some factors that concerned me. Maybe you have no such concerns, and that's fine.
However, what it does mean is that I am unwilling to proclaim him the undisputed answer do our QB quandary. I am unwilling to say that he is, 100%, the answer to our problems.
Face it, if the Bengals and Vikings games were faultless performances, and if the team had no doubts about his performance as QB, then we would never have invested a #1 pick in Manziel. We would have just assumed that he was the answer, and moved forward with Hoyer as our franchise guy. That is not what happened though. Hoyer did a very good job for a team in desperate need of a good job at QB ...... but he left enough doubt that the team could not name him the starter and go forward with him. Would you, based on the Vikings and Bengals games, have made that decision? That is, in a way, what you are arguing, because if you see his performance as exceptional, and without any drawbacks, then you should want Hoyer to be the guy going forward. Why wouldn't you? If he was that good, at everything, then he should be our guy. He isn't, though, He is a competitor for the job.
The worst thing that could have happened last year, happened. Hoyer showed some promise, and then got hurt. The team could not name him the undisputed starter, and they couldn't simply replace him. Instead, we were left to play out the rest of the year with an ineffective combination of Weeden and Campbell, instead of finding out where Hoyer would have fit on the competency scale, on the long term.
I'm not one for internet research on such things, but I gotta admit- it was kind of fun reading that. I'm a 'visual' guy... and just reading the data took me back to that sequence of plays. It was kinda fun re-running that part of the game in my mind (...until the end of that last play- OUCH! That's the 'downside of having a visual memory.' I wince every time anyone mentions RG3's injury for the same reason... hehehe)
And My Boy arch:
Quote: I'll trust the coaches to make the right decisions. In other words, I don't want JM starting because he's JM - I want the best qb starting.
Me, too.
I get a "No BS" vibe from this coaching staff. There seems to be a different "feel" about them from other staffs that we've had in the past. I know that I have no data to back up what I'm saying, but my intuition has always been fairly acute. I'm rarely wrong, when it comes to people and what they'll do.
To me, this bunch just feels.... solid.
It's hard for me to believe that this bunch of guys would do anything other than work a straight-up, professional assessment of their data, and make a decision based upon that.
From all that I read, these guys (OC, DC, HC) are handling their business like true professionals. I don't expect that to change when it's time to name a starter for the reg season.
For some reason (...and I have no history with these guys to form my opinion...), I just trust them to make the best choice.
I know a lot of people were pimping Bridgewater, myself included, his preaseason debut nothing really to write home about:
6 of 13 for 49 yards. Took a red zone sack and some others. What will Johnny Football do tonight? I'm sure half the world will be watching...
You know what's crazy? His debut was ugly, but so was every other QB on the Vikings roster. So I guess he still has a shot. But he needs to protect that ball and just take a sack, cause that fumble in the red zone could've been 100 percent avoidable.
I watched that game through until both Bridgewater and Carr were done. There's no way Minnesota can start Cassell and say he gives them the best chance to win...looked like me throwing the ball out there. Bridgewater has to make some better decisions out there, though. He threw to covered guys a number of times and OAK secondary is nothing to write home about. His best play was probably the first one on the rollout that got called back for a procedural penalty.
Carr had his ups and downs as well, but was hurt by four drops (two by Little, two by the FB including the INT). The play that bothered me was the third and short with trips right when he had Moore open for the first down but went to the guy in the flat who came up short.
Just the first preseason game for both guys. Both showed some good and some bad.
Quote: Not picking on you, but I have to ask -- I see a lot of people saying "Manziel hasn't shown enough" but they haven't been to camp.
I guess I just don't understand, because everything I've read from National and local guys is that Manziel is winning the job.
I've gotten the vibe that they went into camp with the mindset of Johnny Manziel will not be the starter Week 1, but that Manziel is flat out winning the job (And now there's "competition")
That's everything I've read and a couple people I've talked to who have been there have said the same things.
I'm just curious if you've read something different, or what that makes you think "Manziel hasn't shown enough"
Fair question. I have only the coaches who speak up, the players that speak of hoyer and manziel and the media.
Which oddly enough, I haven't heard anyone say he was winning the job. I've heard them (meaning everyone above except the players) say everything from Hoyers miles ahead of Manziel to Manziel closing the gap to Manziel is closer than we thought. I think I remember hearing a few weeks ago that Shanahan thought it was even. That's the best I've read.
As for anyone I know that's gone, I've not heard he's winning. They were however,, in awe of him to some extent. the kid has skills which excited the hell out of me as a fan of the Browns.
But I've heard NOBODY say he's winning the job.
I've said it before, I don't have a horse in this race. I don't give a damn who the QB is, I just want to start winning.
Quote: I get a "No BS" vibe from this coaching staff. There seems to be a different "feel" about them from other staffs that we've had in the past. I know that I have no data to back up what I'm saying, but my intuition has always been fairly acute. I'm rarely wrong, when it comes to people and what they'll do.
To me, this bunch just feels.... solid.
It's hard for me to believe that this bunch of guys would do anything other than work a straight-up, professional assessment of their data, and make a decision based upon that.
From all that I read, these guys (OC, DC, HC) are handling their business like true professionals. I don't expect that to change when it's time to name a starter for the reg season.
For some reason (...and I have no history with these guys to form my opinion...), I just trust them to make the best choice.
I agree, it's not quantifiable but the feeling is there.
Quote: I get a "No BS" vibe from this coaching staff. There seems to be a different "feel" about them from other staffs that we've had in the past. I know that I have no data to back up what I'm saying, but my intuition has always been fairly acute. I'm rarely wrong, when it comes to people and what they'll do.
To me, this bunch just feels.... solid.
It's hard for me to believe that this bunch of guys would do anything other than work a straight-up, professional assessment of their data, and make a decision based upon that.
From all that I read, these guys (OC, DC, HC) are handling their business like true professionals. I don't expect that to change when it's time to name a starter for the reg season.
For some reason (...and I have no history with these guys to form my opinion...), I just trust them to make the best choice.
I agree, it's not quantifiable but the feeling is there.
That seems to be a consensus among most fans both on here and just folks that are friends and heavy browns fans.
NO BS coaching.
Now, they haven't really had to defend any decisions they've made on game day,, That is usually where we may see some "taking cover" type thinking.
Did the gloves not fit? Small hands; just wait 'til cold weather! Seriously though, I hope he does well, but that JM is clear cut the superior QB...
Yea I'm team Manziel now that we got him. I hope he kills it while he's on our team.
One thing I know with absolute certainty .......
Every move Manziel makes in the preseason game against the Lions will be analyzed, inspected, rehashed, scrutinized, and regurgitated until it is time to do it all again for the 2nd game. lol
Question for the board, especially guys that watch a lot of college football (I pretty much only watch OSU) ... what kind of arm does Manziel have? Does he have:
A.) An elite, top 5 or 6 in the league throwing arm? (I read this somewhere recently - maybe here - but one of the problems with getting older is remembering where you saw what you think you saw.)
B.) An above average arm?
C.) Strictly average arm?
D.) Below average arm?
E.) Ken Dorsey arm?
My thinking before seeing a reference to him having an elite arm was that he was slightly above average in arm strength ... but now would like to hear from guys that saw more of him than I did. Thanks in advance.
I don't think that he has an elite, rocket launcher type arm ...... but probably an upper quarter to third type instead. His arm is strong enough to make any throw necessary, and throwing a middle to deeper out shouldn't be any problem for him.
He also has huge hands, so that should help him hang onto the ball, even in poor conditions, and should let him generate good spin to cut through the Cleveland winter winds. .
everything I've read from National and local guys is that Manziel is winning the job.
Not knowing your generation...but they don't teach history like they use to. "READ" so much of journalism - Politics, International and yes Sports has fallen under the realm of "YELLOW JOURNALISM" if you don't know what this is...study it.
2. Also a very natural thing is to remember what is important to you. As stated on the what was it Wed. or Thurs practice...the last one. Yeah there was a big right up on JM and all his throws and how he had his best day in camp...the same articles, buried a comment of, Oh Hoyer had his best day too.
Its easy to miss that. JM isn't winning anything. The media is trying its darndest to get him elected...errr named the starter. Look at the Off season how many hits they got on their tweets talking about Johnny did this Johnny did that. Imagine him as the Browns starter. yeah the tweets will be more football but never the less cause people many around football and many with a casual interest in football are intrigued. HE IS A GREAT STORY...him as a back up. What are they going to talk about? Gino Smith?
I think it was stated somewhere. If he truly WINS the competition then its ok. But not put him out there due to media or fan pressure.
I don't wish to be a Coach B...but I know my football. There is no way JM can win the starting QB position for 2014. Just too much to learn - too much to digest. And Hoyer truly GETS IT. The difference of talent does not make up for the GETTING IT PART! Yes it can be that simple.
I have no doubt..NO DOUBT, keep in mind JM was my QB of choice in this draft! I thought no way we would get him...I'm so tickled pink that we did. Only did that happen 3 times before. Greg Pruit, Leroy Hoard, Joe Thomas...This draft...talk about DESTINY. There was a thread regarding 1.2.3. choices for Day 2 2nd round. ummmm my choices were 1. Bitonio, 2. Bitonio. 3. Oh and Bitonio
So when I talk about this QB thing and JM I do so knowing that JM is going to be a true STAR for us.
Look, he came from a system that used a 15 play chart...He came from a system that was simply ONE READ. He came from a system that rarely had him go under center. He came from a system that relied on his IMPROVISATION greatly! He came from a system that had NO SYSTEM!
There is so much he has to learn. So much for him to reach that STAR QB I know is there.
These Idiots and yes I'm calling Billick an Idiot and I'll say that to his face if I get a chance. Saying you cannot learn on the sidelines. Dion the meSanders says that too. As if QB is similar to CB Fact is this. When players especially Rookies are playing. Its not a thinking mans game its a REACTING Mans game including the QB, especially the QB. Knowing the play is not KNOWING! Its reacting to the PLAY. Well it so happens Hoyer has had the PWANG happen to him and he actually knows what happening via REACTION. JM know way he does!
Now I know people will say hey what about him starting now so he can KNOW BETTER...nah this is where I'm sorry to say my experience with football does kick in. Let me tell you how that works.
When you are in a REACTION mode...you don't correct yourself and do the right thing. A rare occasion possibly. But for most when you go in reaction mode you go into all the bad habits the coaches are trying to rid of. Now you will say well won't they be there next year. NO repetition of just the good over n over will rid of the BAD HABITS. Eventually they will take over as the "REACTION". Now that might be mid season of this 2014. But if Hoyer is doing well we won't change horses. That pretty much is what I'm talking about. I am not trying to be condescending. I don't know how to explain what I KNOW AS FACTS. I'm don't care who is right or wrong. I don't need pats on the back for verification of my football. I know what I know. I've made many a QB - I've seen them prosper and I've seen them fail. I've seen them abandon the pocket and go into bad habits. I've heard the excuses, coach I'm a running QB... been there done that.
jmho...it will be a diservice to the Browns and to JM to have him start day one. Just so some fans can rock their jocks or Media to get a story. Its actually the only way that can RUIN THIS! It doesn't mean it will. Just the odds are so much better the other way! I hope Haslam stays out of this. Let the coaches do it their way.
I would say he has an slightly above average NFL arm. Here is an article about his pro day and arm strength:
Quote: Texas A&M star Johnny Manziel showcases big arm, discipline during Pro Day workout in front of NFL decision-makers Eight coaches and eight GMs packed into College Station’s field house, Texans head coach Bill O’Brien and Vikings head coach Mike Zimmer among them. The Heisman Trophy winner completed 61 of his 64 throws during his 45-minute workout.
From his antics off the field to his free-wheeling style of play on it, nothing about Johnny Manziel has ever been normal.
And his pro day on Thursday at Texas A&M was no different. Former President George W. Bush showed up to watch, and Nike tried to transform the entire event — which was televised on ESPN2 and streamed on the network’s website — into a cash grab. And in between all that, Johnny Football did his best to show that he can play NFL football, completing 61 of his 64 throws during his 45-minute workout.
With rap music playing in the background, Manziel made an instant impression, showing up in a helmet and pads. Typically, quarterbacks work through pro day sessions in a T-shirt and shorts, so Manziel instantly set himself apart for a host of NFL decision-makers. Eight coaches and eight GMs packed into College Station’s field house, Texans coach Bill O’Brien and Vikings coach Mike Zimmer among them.
Those coaches — and Bush, who showed up in a golf cart halfway through the session — watched Manziel do everything possible to show that he’s the top quarterback prospect in May’s NFL draft.
Locked in a three-way battle with Louisville’s Teddy Bridgewater and Central Florida’s Blake Bortles, Manziel has faced a slew of questions, mostly because of his size (5-11) and a playground style that may not translate to the pros. But he showed discipline on Thursday, doing his best to prove he can play a less flashy brand of football. Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel passes the ball during a drill at pro day for NFL football representatives in College Station, Texas, Thursday, March 27, 2014. (AP Photo/Patric Schneider) Patric Schneider/AP Enlarge Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel passes the ball during a drill at pro day for NFL football representatives in College Station, Texas, Thursday, March 27, 2014. (AP Photo/Patric Schneider) Patric Schneider/AP Enlarge
Manziel took nearly every snap from under center. His throws were accurate and his footwork polished, thanks to several months working with renowned QB guru George Whitfield.
Manziel’s first 42 passes found their mark, although one throw to fellow first-round prospect Mike Evans was completed out of bounds. The ball didn’t even touch the turf until his 48th pass, when his receiver dropped an on-target throw over the middle. He didn’t fire an off-target pass until his 61st throw was just a bit low.
Johnny Football showed off perhaps the biggest arm in the draft. Bridgewater struggled to get deep zip on the ball at his pro day, and Bortles threw the deep ball well a week ago. But Manziel flashed perhaps the best pure arm strength of all the QB prospects, easily laying the ball out 40 yards for his receivers on several occasions. He did it both on the run and after setting his feet.
Manziel’s deep balls were particularly impressive. He ended the session by hitting Evans from about 65 yards out on the money, and throughout the workout, he got excellent touch and air on his long bombs. He showed a good feel for how and when to lay the ball out for his targets, and he didn’t throw any long incompletions. All eyes on the former Heisman Trophy winner during his workout on the Texas A&M campus. Patric Schneider/AP All eyes on the former Heisman Trophy winner during his workout on the Texas A&M campus.
Overall, the quarterback displayed improved form, and he’s obviously spent the last few months cleaning up collegiate flaws. Many knocked Johnny Football for a tendency to throw off his back foot at A&M, but his motion was far cleaner on Thursday; on nearly every pass, he set, then drove up through his legs and hips. His footwork dropping back from the pocket was also clean, and none of it looked mechanical; Manziel seemed natural on every dropback and bootleg.
It remains to be seen whether this form will hold once Manziel gets into the heat of NFL battle; a few years ago, Tim Tebow’s brain trust seemingly overhauled his delivery, only for the QB to return to his slow-motion throwing habits in the pros. But Manziel certainly has made progress.
He showcased just one major flaw in his throwing motion. Manziel doesn’t have a clean, prototypical overhead release; he often seems to throw from a three-quarters arm slot. That’s fine for most signal-callers, but Manziel’s lack of height could work against him here, leading to deflected passes.
Still, it was an impressive workout, and Nike made sure to cap it by introducing the “Manziel Pro Day Collection” in a tweet as soon as it wrapped up. Before his workout, Manziel claimed he had donned a black jersey and black helmet because that’s football.
“Isn’t the game played with them on?” he told the NFL Network’s Gil Brandt.
But just moments after it was all over, there was Nike announcing the “Pro Day Collection.”
So even if Manziel doesn’t profit from Thursday’s performance, at least somebody will.
Quote: I don't know who is going to start the season. I can see it going either way. I just hope we play the best guy. We should not start JM just because he is a number one pick and will be great for marketing purposes. We should not start Hoyer just because JM is a rookie. Play the guy who gives you the best chance to win. I think Pettine will do that.
Agree 100% ... and I have total confidence (for once) that this is going to happen and the FO will do what is right based on what they see on the field. There won't be any "stars aligning" and there won't be anything handed to anyone.
Looking at JM tape - I was impressed with his ability to play football. I was concerned to the point of not wanting him to be a Brown due to his size, and potential to get hurt unless he can play with more discipline. Then when he was drafted I hoped he would sit for a year - I liked what I saw in Hoyer and maybe it was a short sample but I think he's potentially the best QB since 1999 by a mile. . . . Now with JM apparently is pushing for consideration as a starter ... If it happens i will be behind him 100% and believe that he earnt it.
The pressure to start Manziel is tremendous. He is going to start the question is only when?
I am kind of mixed about starting him. On one hand it makes sense to start Hoyer for many reasons. However, the driving factor should be "who gives you the best chance to win".
It also make sense that it would be easier to replace Hoyer with Manziel than vice versa.
The team has to buy into who deserves it. You lose the locker room if they see Hoyer as "the guy" and Manziel is given the job.
At the same time Manziel is going to start sometime. Is it better to find out what he can do right away? Let him learn under fire?
I envy New England. They do things right. They have Brady. They will trade Mallett. Or, let him go to free agency next year. In either case the investment was small. In the meantime they are developing Garoppolo. Who has looked real good.
We continue on this path of Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Weeden and now Manziel. Guys who are for the most part forced into action for one reason or another.
It would be a good thing if Hoyer could play all year be productive and win games. Do nothing for the fan base to scream for Manziel. Then next year make Manziel beat out Hoyer and earn it for real.
But really I just don't see it playing out like that.
We have such a short sample - and little to no *proof* of how Farmer and Pettine will make their decisions. But in regards to making the best decision to give the team the best chance to win .... I have faith they will not cave into perceived pressure to start JM. Personally I don't see any pressure other than making the right decision. That's the ONLY thing that counts. I think the media and fan frenzy isn't going to make a jot of difference to Farmer and Paettine. Most of this is contrived B.S. - a way to fill the offseason dulldrums with "stuff" ...
What can I draw on as a comparison. The draft - Josh Gorddon is announced to have failed a 3rd drug test. Imminent ban for a year. Browns WR core a pretty dismal lot without Gordon .... H-U-G-E pressure and expectations that the Browns M-U-S-T take a WR in the draft. Browns WR's = Poor. Draft WR's = very very deep. A ton of starting caliber talent available. . . we draft a OG, trade up and take a RB, draft a another CB. . . . No WR drafted. Farmer and Pettine did what they believed was right for the team based on their evaluation.
I believe it's simply going to be more of the same with the QB competition, and the CB competition and the ILB competition ... Good for them, good for the Browns.
Quote: This is the first time in a very long time I cannot remember panic already setting in in some quarters about the team. It's kind of weird.
I was talking about the depth chart with my son last night about how Sheard and Taylor are not considered starters yet. I said it's weird.. in the past we were debating a number of positions with "which one of these bozos do we have to start" and now we are talking about "which one of these talented players do we have to sit"... it is really weird.
However, I am very suspicious of Haslam. I just find it hard to believe that a thirty year study on quarterbacks yields Johnny Manziel as the quarterback prospect.
A sub six foot guy who ran the ball plenty in college while running a spread offense.
NFL quarterbacks have made their bones from the pocket. Going to line, getting pre-snap reads then throwing the ball accurately to the right guy, at the right place, and at the right time.
Manziel is not that guy.
He was successful in college. He earned what he accomplished in college. There is much debate over whether his skill set will translate to the NFL. He was passed over by teams in need of a quarterback.
The hype surrounding him although media driven is like Tim Tebow squared.
Haslam knows straight out as a business man what Manziel has brought to Cleveland. He very visible at practice. He has proven what money and power can do.
I want to believe that Manziel was the draft pick of Ray Farmer and Pettine. I want to believe they will make the decision on who starts for all the right reasons.
But I am not totally sure that Manziel being a Brown and what happens does not have Haslam signature.
Cleveland seems now to be at the center of the sports world. I sure hope that the attention brings wins and championships. And are not hollow potential and media hype because if it crashes it will come down hard.
I sort of agree with your take. But at #22 he was fair value I believe.... I am no expert on QB prospects in the NFL, and there are enough "experts" who believe JM is the real deal ... so i will sit and watch and hope (as ever!!). What he lacks for in physical characteristics (he's not 6'4") he more than makes up for in intangibles and desire ... but it will all unfold on Sundays! This year or next.
I highly doubt that. Show a link to that if you have seen it. Look at his college stats. The rushing yards, the rushing TD's, if you watched him play you can not convince me he was a pocket passer in college.
It remains to be seen how Johnny adapts to the NFL game.
I hope he proves me dead wrong and becomes in the NFL what he was in college a play maker who leads his team and wins games.
Johnny Manziel has been the most polarizing draft prospect since Cam Newton, and like Cam Newton, flaws in his game are being invented to build an argument against him. The silly thing about this trend is that there are plenty of flaws apparent on film to give an evaluator some pause. Flaws that will lose games for him in the pros. Flaws that will dog him for his entire pro career if he does not improve on them. Here’s a nice long list of less than ideal things about Manziel’s game. NEGATIVES
Manziel can take unnecessary chances on third and short and doesn’t tighten up his decision-making in the red zone, occasionally resulting in crushing interceptions. He doesn’t always alter his approach for the down/distance or the place he is on the field.
Manziel is an aggressive-minded quarterback, which turns into a bad quality when it compels him to press or force the ball (red zone interceptions come up here). He is the type of quarterback who errs on the side of pulling the trigger.
That inclination to pull the trigger can result in maybe Manziel’s most troubling flaw: he can get stumped and make a terrible decision if he stays in the pocket for too long after he has exhausted his reads. This is a version of a popular knock on Manziel, that he is not comfortable in the pocket. That knock can be true, but only when nothing comes open in his initial progression. The "book" on Manziel at the beginning of his career will likely to be only rush 3 or 4, with an emphasis on keeping Manziel in the pocket and drop everyone else into coverage except for possibly one spy.
Another troubling tendency for Manziel is having a slight hesitation in his decision to throw downfield or anticipate a receiver coming open. Manziel is mostly a quick decision-maker and actor, but you will see hesitation short-circuit a few plays, and even result in an interception or two.
Manziel is a Houdini in the pocket, but he has a habit of retreating as a first instinct and sometimes preferring to escape out of the back of the pocket. This is a classic “works in college, but not in the pros” strategy that will need to be ironed out. It is not incessant - Manziel does escape through the side and front of the pocket and he will step up as a response to pressure - but it is present.
When Manziel does escape initial pressure, he sometimes gets too relaxed when he resets and scans the field outside of the pocket, making it too easy for the undetected defender to sack him. Like most of his flaws, this will only happen once or twice in a game at most, but it is another area where he gives something back to the defense.
Manziel lacks the elite speed of Robert Griffin III or (young) Michael Vick, so a reasonably athletic linebacker can be effective at limiting his gains as a scrambler when they are assigned to spy him.
Speaking of Vick, Manziel takes too many big hits. He runs to contact like a running back and will fight through tackles and try to extend for extra yardage at the end of runs. He will have to have a better sense of self-preservation in the pros.
Manziel’s arm is mostly average. This results in a handful of weak throws in the dirt to the sidelines and balls that die as they are getting to their target. It happens on a small minority of his throws, but it does highlight that he isn’t a quarterback that is going to win with brute arm strength
This is far from an exhaustive list. I hope that it shows that I am not blind to mistakes Manziel makes on the field or the idea that he will have to evolve in the pros to keep these traits from betraying him at times. There are a lot of arguments against Manziel that some will list as negatives in an absolute way. These are myths, and I would like to dispel them.
Myths
Note: Big thanks to Draft Breakdown for all the cut-ups. A must bookmark for anyone interested in watching college players.
Manziel can't make plays as a pocket passer: Manziel does make throws from pocket after multiple reads, including deep balls. He can scan the whole field and find open receivers on the opposite side of the field that he started reading. He can look off safeties to create space for his receivers downfield. Manziel is probably more effective outside of the pocket, but that is because he is elite at creating there. He might even prefer playing outside of the structure of a play, but he demonstrates classic pocket passer abilities on numerous occasions.
Manziel tries to do too much on every play: Manziel can take what the defense gives him. As Matt Waldman pointed out “on the couch”, sometimes that is a running lane that yields easy yardage. Manziel will also hit checkdowns, even after he is flushed from the pocket.
Manziel is a freelancer who does not play within the offensive gameplan: Working with the confines of a play call and offensive scheme is another ability Manziel displays on tape. He can move the offense with short, quick throws, and throws early in progressions, with excellent timing and quickness. He then uses pump fakes, play fakes and body language to manipulate defenses to bite on those quick, short throws and set up longer throws downfield. There also plenty of examples of timing and anticipation throws on tape. Manziel is not strictly a playground quarterback who tries to outlast the defense.
Manziel would prefer to attack the defense as a runner: Manziel is not a run first quarterback. He often steps up in pocket and almost always looks to attack as passer first, including when he is outside of the pocket. Manziel is excellent at keeping the ball in a position that makes it easier to load up a throw when he is outside of the pocket, and he continuously looks for ways to beat the defense through the air.
Mike Evans made Manziel: There is a narrative out there that goes like this, “Mike Evans is bailing out Manziel by catching the prayers he throws up after he runs around for a while.” Here’s the thing: Manziel consistently puts the above the rim in a place where Evans can out-leap/extend above his opponent and win the catch. This happens with such consistency that it is hard for me to believe that it is random. Manziel does almost everything on the field with great intention, including his mistakes. This is evidence of Manziel knowing how to utilize the weapons at his disposal, far from a negative or flaw in his game.
Manziel only wins by running around until he outlasts the defense: It also seems like Manziel’s ability to keep plays alive for ridiculously long durations and make a play that it looks like he shouldn’t have been able to make has skewed his evaluation. While Manziel has done this a handful of times, the vast majority of plays he makes to move the offense are within the structure of the play, or decisive runs/throws outside of the pocket soon after the breaks the pocket. While Manziel can make highlight plays by outlasting the defense in an absurd fashion, it is far from the cornerstone of his game.
Manziel's career will be ruined by durability problems: The durability knock is also a bit of a myth. Yes, Manziel plays a style that will translate to a higher injury likelihood in the pros, but it is important to point out that he did not miss a game in his two years of SEC play. It is fair to point out that he did suffer some nicks and bumps that may have lowered his effectiveness for a few games, such as the LSU game in 2013, but there’s no evidence that Manziel is particularly fragile, or a slow healer, or unable to play through injuries. He also has the body type of a running back. Manziel’s game will suffer if he doesn’t practice better self-preservation on the field, but it doesn’t appear that it will be a fatal flaw. On Fatal Flaws
Now that we’ve sorted the reality and myths of Manziel’s game let’s address those flaws. The sacrifice of clean health for playmaking ability is something Michael Vick has never improved on. Donovan McNabb would spray the ball at times and waste downs. Tony Romo likes to escape out of the back of the pocket and he is prone to turnover fests (I see the most similarities as a passer and decision-maker between Manziel and Romo). Colin Kaepernick can get stumped in the pocket. Andy Dalton can be a beat late anticipating. “Successful” NFL quarterbacks have flaws. The question is whether they have enough positives to mitigate those flaws. Now we get to the fun part, Manziel’s positives. What does Manziel bring to the table as an NFL quarterback?
Composure/Poise: Manziel plays with a rare calm - in “the eye of the storm”. Pressure does not limit his options or rush his thinking. He never forecloses options during a play, and if anything his inclination to go for the jugular can be a negative at times - it is much easier to rein in an aggressive-minded quarterback than it is to transplant nerve into a timid quarterback. This mental calm translates in his escapability in the pocket, ability to make throws in a muddy pocket, and ability to create positive outcomes when the play is extended. He never looks overwhelmed, or otherwise like the game is too big, fast, or complex for him to process the field with clarity and act decisively to move the offense.
Elusiveness: When it comes to escapability inside the pocket and elusiveness outside the pocket, Manziel might be the best quarterback I’ve ever evaluated. He has elite raw quicks, but he also has terrific instincts to sense pressure and load up a move to thwart them. The first free rusher almost never tackles Manziel, and they often fail to even get a hand on him. Manziel’s moves to elude pressure sometimes make defenders look like they have a string on their back that someone yanked.
Creativity: Once Manziel is outside of the pocket, he is an artist. He can direct his players to openings directly with hand movements, or indirectly by “throwing them open”. He sees possibilities where other quarterbacks would not. This is another iteration of his aggressive-minded approach.
It’s not just that Manziel sees and tries to make plays outside of the pocket. His ability to use footwork to create a quick setup and release from a suboptimal platform, and deliver an accurate pass is stunning at times. Very little time elapses between “see it” and “throw it” while Manziel is scrambling, and it rarely comes at the expense of accuracy or decision-making. Manziel always keeps his eyes downfield on the move and he has the physical wherewithal to make what he sees a reality.
Influence on Defense: That ability to make throws to all parts of the field on the move is supplemented by enough speed and elusiveness in the open field to chew up big chunks of yards as a runner. Manziel must defended as a passer first outside of the pocket, but he can obviously hurt defenses as a runner. This is crucial because it means Manziel will force defenses to play 11-on-11 football and defend the entire field at all times. He puts defenses at a disadvantage before they even step on the field. SEC teams with high-end pass rush talents would neuter one of their best weapons on defense to try to force Manziel to stay in the pocket by playing contain instead of pinning their ears back. This has often been brought up in the difficulty it creates when evaluating Texas A&M’s pass protectors. Manziel hypnotizes defenses and he is the focus of the defensive game plan. He forces defenses to play on their heels and he dictates the game in the SEC. This is a good indicator of the caliber of player that he is.
Accuracy: Manziel gets dinged for inconsistent mechanics, but when his mechanics are quiet and smooth, he is a hyperaccurate downfield passer. He will display this ability when hitting reads later in his progressions. In addition, he can make accurate downfield throws when he doesn’t have room to step into them, or in general in muddy pockets with bodies around him. Manziel will also use his pocket elusiveness and quickness to instinctively move to space where he can re-establish a throwing platform and scan the field.
Speaking of accuracy, let’s also include that Manziel has been a 68 and 69.9 percent completion rate passer as a freshman and sophomore in the SEC. He is accurate to all parts of the field, and he is accurate both inside and outside of the pocket.
Intangibles: In addition to being a springy, tightly wound athlete, Manziel is also extremely tough, with tremendous stamina at the end of games and a “won’t back down” competitiveness. He is a leader both directly and indirectly - his effort inspires his teammates and gives them faith that he is likely to win the game for them if they keep it close. Manziel is not only willing to put his team on his shoulders, he relishes the opportunity. He’s like a basketball player who wants the ball in his hands for the last shot of the game. He does not shy away from big moments, he rises to them. His calm and his aggressive mindset intersect here.
Closing Argument
I understand Manziel’s flaws causing pause when evaluating him. Just like Tony Romo, who I think is closest to Manziel as a passer and decision-maker, Manziel will have a few turnover fests. He’ll have game-ending turnovers, and he’ll frustrate his fanbase by not being conservative when the game calls for it. Like Vick, he may miss some games due to injury because of his playing style. Like Kaepernick, he’ll have some games early in his career where good defenses can cut some of his favorite strategies off at the pass and force him to re-trench elsewhere in his game with mixed results.
None of these quarterbacks are failures. None were out of the league after five years, or destined to be backups.
Manziel’s calm, aggressive, and quick thinking and acting on the field will translate to the NFL. Last time I watched an NFL game, there were a lot of plays that forced a quarterback to function outside of the structure of a play call. Being able to excel outside of the pocket, or when moved off of a launch point is a big part of winning at quarterback in the NFL. I understand the view that Manziel will have to do more than that, but holding his ability to do that against him in his evaluation, as if it is the ONLY way he wins is just plain false. The reality is that he has already demonstrated elite ability in one of the key areas that sink many quarterbacks who are very good when the play goes exactly as designed. This is a positive, not a negative.
Another factor is working against the prediction of Manziel as a failure. NFL offenses are merging with “college” offenses in their willingness to incorporate more concepts seen at the college level. NFL offensive coordinators today are much more willing to craft offensive gameplans to accentuate the strengths of their quarterback instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. In addition, the team that takes Manziel will be one that actually likes his playing style. That increases the likelihood that they will design an offense that naturally fits Manziel’s ability to extend plays and be a threat as a runner. Let’s also remember that he just turned 21 in December and showed marked improvement between his freshman and sophomore years. This is inconvenient if an NFL projection of Manziel includes the assumption that he will not evolve in the pros a la Michael Vick - although Vick was able to turn the tools that made him a dominant college quarterback into a very good NFL career. Vick basically represents Manziel’s floor in the NFL.
The poles in the relative possibilities of what lies ahead of Johnny Manziel are not nearly far apart as the poles in the evaluations of his NFL future. He will either be a tease who dominates at times, but never quite puts it all together and relies too much on his gifts like Vick, or he will continue to grow and fall somewhere on the McNabb-Romo-Favre axis. To predict abject failure ignores the aspects of Manziel’s game beyond improvisation, and how many of the elements of his improvisation will translate. No matter what happens, Manziel will continue to be one of the most talked-about players in the league, and we will all learn more from each other about evaluating the quarterback position and what it takes to win at QB in the NFL… and I look forward to that almost as much as I look forward to watching Manziel play on Sundays. Almost.
Improved pocket passing Manziel completed 73 percent of his passes from inside of the pocket this season, best among quarterbacks from BCS automatic-qualifier conferences (AQ conferences) and up four percentage points from last season.
He completed at least 65 percent of his passes from inside of the pocket in every game but one this season.
Downfield success Manziel completed 48 percent of his passes thrown 25 yards or longer this season, up nine percentage points from last season and in the top 10 among AQ quarterbacks.
Manziel had at least one such completion in every game he started this season.
In terms of comparisons to recent draft picks, among first-round picks in 2011 and 2012, only Robert Griffin III had a higher completion percentage on passes of 25 yards or longer than Manziel in his final year of college. Griffin’s was a hair better -- 52 percent.
Making it count in tough situations Manziel has also excelled at moving the chains with both his arm and his feet. Since the start of last season, he has the highest total QBR on third down, and only Jordan Lynch has rushed for more yards on third down than Manziel.
Manziel’s 97.0 Total QBR and 53 percent first-down conversion rate in third-down situations leads the nation.
Bro, I think your dislike of Manziel is clouding your thinking. If anything, the press has been really negative in their reports about Manziel. It seems like many reporters and fans want the kid to fail. They don't like him as a person, so they don't like him as a player.
I think we should just let it play out and let the best man win. At this point, it is way too early to say there are conspiracy theories or that Manziel will be handed the job. Way too early for that nonsense, bro.
Quote: Bro, I think your dislike of Manziel is clouding your thinking. If anything, the press has been really negative in their reports about Manziel. It seems like many reporters and fans want the kid to fail. They don't like him as a person, so they don't like him as a player.
I think we should just let it play out and let the best man win. At this point, it is way too early to say there are conspiracy theories or that Manziel will be handed the job. Way too early for that nonsense, bro.
One thing that Manziel did that I really liked. His play got better each series he got. I think that shows his ability to process information quickly.
On his frist 2 series I thought he looked at his initial read and if it was not there he would immidetely pull the ball down and look for a running lane. The last 2 series he played he sat in the pocket and went thru his progressions. He was more accurate with his throws than I was expecting.
I do not care if he wins the job for the opener in 2014, What I care about is he a QB that can develop into a franchise QB. There is still no way to tell after part of the first pre season game. But, he did show some traits that all good to great QB's have.
He's going to make mistakes,but I was really impressed with his poise.The kid took command of the huddle,and has some real spark in him.Hate the 4th and 1 play,but love his throw over the middle,and that big run.Have to admit,he did better than I thought he would.
Well he's definitely got some quick twitch to him and seems to think quickly on his feet, but that can also lead to reckless decisions (at least while he's inexperienced)
Quote: I'd guess that they will. Give him the first half to show what he's got, which is conveniently a MNF game
No better time.The ratings will go through the roof.Every single team board has threads talking about him,and 90% hope he sucks...I'm hoping he's the real deal,and can give us something to cheer about for a change. Lord knows we need it...
Quote: He's going to make mistakes,but I was really impressed with his poise.The kid took command of the huddle,and has some real spark in him.Hate the 4th and 1 play,but love his throw over the middle,and that big run.Have to admit,he did better than I thought he would.
Quote: He's going to make mistakes,but I was really impressed with his poise.The kid took command of the huddle,and has some real spark in him.Hate the 4th and 1 play,but love his throw over the middle,and that big run.Have to admit,he did better than I thought he would.
Total 180 from the game day thread.
Yeah,I was watching a baseball game at the same time,so I went back and reviewed his play in detail.The kid has some real confidence.I want to see more of him next week,but Hoyer should open the season for us.JF needs to get used to the speed of the game and reading defenses,not having to rely on running so much.He did damned good inside the pocket,pretty surprised by that.
Just business nothing personal. I want Manziel to succeed in a big way. Have nothing against him at all. Loved watching him in college.
However, as NFL quarterback prospect I did see him as a first rounder.
In regards to Haslam and any conspiracy I have no proof of any tampering. I am just suspicious of money and power. Owners have the authority to do what they want. If Banner and Lombardi (along with Farmer) at the time liked Manziel you have to believe that Haslam was in the know. When Banner and Lombardi were fired it is not beyond reason that Haslam wanted Manziel. He may have let Farmer run the draft but made a point that Manziel should be taken at the right value if possible.
I find it perfectly plausible that Haslam told Farmer that Manziel is the target but not necessarily with the first pick.
I just find it hard to believe that a thirty year study of quarterbacks yields Manziel as the right prospect.
In any case I liked what I saw of Manziel last night. He looked poised and confident. Did nothing wrong given the situation. Thought Hoyer looked fine for the first game of pre-season.
As stated I have mixed feels on who should start the season.
I don't believe Haslam will be part of any decision on who starts.
Whatever guy is selected I just want to win period. If Manziel is the guy I am behind him 100%. If the guy is Hoyer same thing.
It's only fair. Hoyer didn't really do much to totally separate himself from JF while working with the number ones.
Let Manziel run with the number ones, more specifically with the number one o-line. I think we may see a very accurate pocket passer with JF while having protection that the number two o-line didn't really provide during the Lion's game.
Edit, it impressed me JF knew where to go with the ball when things started to get rough. Had a great pass to I believe Lewis. Dumped off to West. We need someone who knows where their players are on the field, and can proceed through their progressions when the protection is, and isn't, holding up.
Weeden was like a deer in headlights. I'm so glad we don't have to watch his bad play anymore... have fun with that Jerry Jones HAHA. That was a big highlight, not having to watch Weeden!
Out of the rookie class, I thought Johny and Jimmy looked more ready. Car and teddy were not bad but they looked more like rookies. I thought Bortles looked good also and appeared to have reduced some of that wind up giving himself a stronger looking arm and a quicker release.
I thought Carr looked a little bit errant, which may be expected. Johnny definitely is the biggest playmaker, but his pocket play was non-existent (2nd string OL may have caused some of it)
They showed a lot of Manziel getting planted after throwing. I bet ten bucks the kid woke up a bit sore today, and not just cause he was the team's leading rusher either lol... the second team oline was extremely crappy
Everytime he runs falls or farts, he acts like he just hurt something. He plays it up for the fans knowing he is on tv. He will be grabbing his knee and oo spontaneously running all over the place 2 mins later. Seen a lot of that at A&M lol
Of the rookie QB class, I think it's easy to say that Bortles was the top of the class. He looked very good in his opening game and he showed why he was taken above the rest.
Carr had a slow go of it in Oakland. Looking at the stat line, you see that he had an INT but it was a pass that bounced off the target's hands and should have been caught by the offense, not the defense.
Manziel's performance was alright, not stellar and he made some rookie mistakes (decision-making) but that can be corrected with coaching. He certainly isn't ready for the starting gig in the NFL yet.
Bridgewater was lackluster and IMHO showed why he wasn't taken higher than he was. I still don't think he'll pan out.
Quote: Everytime he runs falls or farts, he acts like he just hurt something. He plays it up for the fans knowing he is on tv. He will be grabbing his knee and oo spontaneously running all over the place 2 mins later. Seen a lot of that at A&M lol
Really? that will get very annoying ... but Jim Brown did the same thing from what I hear ... so I'll take that trade off
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Johnny Manziel has pulled ahead of Brian Hoyer in the quarterback race following his flashy debut in Detroit, according to a report.
Citing a Browns source, ESPN's Bob Holtzman reported that Manziel has overtaken the sixth-year pro in the battle for the starting job after his promising performance in Saturday night's 13-12 loss to the Lions.
A source told cleveland.com that Manziel has the momentum and that the superior talent. They've also been pleased with his leadership and progress since the beginning of camp. If he plays well in Washington on Monday Night Football Aug. 18, he'll be very much in the conversation for that week one start in Pittsburgh.
Displaying some of his Johnny Football style, Manziel competed 7-of-11 attempts (64%) for 63 yards in four series of work with the second-team offense. He also led the Browns with 27 yards on six carries, including a 16-yard scramble after he which he slid like a major leaguer.
Manziel will most likely get the against the Redskins and Robert Griffin III, but Pettine wasn't ready to go there after the game.
"That decision hasn't been made yet,'' said Pettine.
He also declined to say which quarterback won round one of the sweepstakes, but will address the media on a conference call at 4 p.m. Sunday.
"They both did some good things," Pettine said. "They both did some things that more suited their skill set. I think Brian was high on a couple throws. I think he would want those back. He threw a couple of other nice balls in there. I thought Johnny did some nice things from the pocket. When he got out, he created a little bit as well."
Still, it's evident that Manziel will need to get some work in the with the first team offense before the Browns can declare him their man for the opener in Pittsburgh. Pettine plans to make his decision before the third preseason game Aug. 23.
"I just think I need to continue to do what the coaches are asking me to do and continue to learn and go through these situations in these games and try to handle them the best that I can while they're coming at me,'' Manziel said. "I'm sure through these next few weeks there will be adversity that I'll have to overcome.
"At the same time, that's part of this game and I need to continue to try to handle the situations the best I know how and try to put this team and my group – whichever, the ones, the twos, the threes, the fours, whatever it is – try and move the ball down the field and help our team win a game.''
Imagine if Manziel had Pro Bowlers Joe Thomas and Alex Mack blocking for him, and Pro Bowlers Jordan Cameron and Josh Gordon catching passes for him, which is conceivable in Washington if Gordon hasn't been suspended yet.
"I feel like we're getting looks with every guy on the team,'' said Manziel, who's already mastered the art of diplomacy. "Guys are doing a really good job and continuing to get more and more comfortable.''
Manziel mustered only one field goal in his four possessions, but watched his best drive fizzle on a Dion Lewis fumble at the Detroit 31 and his final march marred by offensive penalties and a dropped pass by undrafted rookie Willie Snead.
"The list of things I need to improve on could go on for days, but for me, it was a good start," Manziel said. "You have to start somewhere and you have to set a foundation, and it was good to get my feet wet. I got my first preseason game under my belt and we've got three more heading into the season.''
Operating primarily out of the pistol and read-option, he converted a fourth-and-1 on a keeper and completed a few passes on the move. But arguably his best throw of the night came from under center, when he fired a 14-yard strike to rookie Taylor Gabriel over the middle after a fake.
"I felt comfortable in the pocket,'' Manziel said. "I felt like the offensive line did a great job of holding up for me to be able to deliver that ball when we were supposed to get rid of it. I felt like the ball came out well tonight. I'm still working on getting balls out on time better and really timing things up.''
Manziel, who entered the game midway through the second quarter to a chorus of boos and some cheers, took a few hard shots from defenders eager to get a lick on the Boy Wonder. But he trotted back out onto the field for two more drives after being checked out by the medical team after one hard hit just before the field goal, and scrambled for 16 yards just after absorbing another blow. Overall, Manziel was knocked down at least three times after the throw.
"It's a football game,'' he said. "It's physical. It's part of the game, but I feel really good. I feel great.''
Pettine agreed that the sideline exam was favorable.
"It's nothing serious,'' he said.
Question is, can the under six-foot, 210-pound Manziel run that much every game and stay healthy?
"I want to move the ball down the field,'' he said. "I did as good a job as I could getting down when I needed to get down and there was a fourth down where I was happy to get the first down, happy to move the chains there. When I did get a chance to take off and run around a little bit, I got down to the chains and tried to keep the drive going. That's what it's all about.''
Manziel was stopped for no gain on his first run -- a third-and-1 -- to go three-and-out on his opening drive. But he gained 11 yards on his next two scrambles, including an 8-yarder on which he followed the block of fullback Ray Agnew. On the fourth-and-1 conversion, Manziel had Agnew wide open, but ran instead and barely made the yard around right end.
"I felt like I need to continue to exhaust my progressions a little bit more,'' he said. "There was a time I stepped up in the pocket and the seas kind of parted and the line kind of gave me a good hole to push up and take off. I needed to make a quick decision, either hang in there a second longer and make the throw or take off and luckily I got past the first wave of defensive linemen and got (16) whatever yard gain it was.''
Another time, Manziel felt the heat and took off prematurely, but will undoubtedly be more patient in the pocket with a better supporting cast. Gordon and Miles Austin worked only with the first team and Cameron had the night off because of a shoulder injury.
"Obviously that's not the plan for me to get that many carries every week,'' he said. "At the same time, the more and more I get better at progressions, the more and more I get comfortable with the play calls and the scheme and what we're trying to do and pre-snap looks, the more and more I continue to get better over time and hopefully that will weed out. The times I did take off I felt I got out of bounds, slid and tried to protect myself the best way I could.''
Manziel said all of the right things about winning the starting job, which should play well in the locker room, especially amongst the veterans.
"For me, it's all about getting better,'' he said. "If I'm the guy that puts this team in the best position to win, then we'll see what happens. But if it's not, then I'm here. At the end of the day, what I want is what's best for the Cleveland Browns. Whichever quarterback that is, whichever way I can help this team, that's what I'm all about. I'm not about having to come in, having to do this. I just need to continue to get better as a player, continue to learn, soak everything in from the film and this experience I had tonight and things will play themselves out the way they're supposed to.''
Manziel received a nice endorsement from Thomas, who's seen plenty of young quarterbacks come and go.
"He seemed to handle it really well and you didn't see any silly rookie mistakes that you'd expect out of a first-year quarterback,'' Thomas said.
Manziel wasn't ready to say that his debut gave him the confidence to face the Steelers less than a month from now, but seemed to realize that the speed and magnitude of the game weren't too much for him.
"Luckily for me there's three more games for me to get out there and learn and continue to go through different situations vs. different defenses,'' said Manziel. "I'm still going week to week and just growing up as a quarterback. I guess you guys can say (the Steelers game) is close, but at the same time there are a lot of things that will unfold from now until then that will paint a better picture for us.''
Overall, Manziel felt he operated the offense efficiently for his first time out.
"I tried to be as decisive as I could,'' he said. "There were some things that I obviously missed, which comes with the territory of being precise on these reads and our progressions. When I knew where I wanted to go and got the right look, the ball came out nice and on time and I really tried to put these guys in the best position possible to get a catch and turn upfield and get as many yards after the catch as we can.''
Hoyer managed two field goals in his three series of work, but the second came against the Lions' second-team defense. He completed 6-of-14 attempts for 92 yards, with a long completion of 28 yards to Marquis Gray. En route to a 65.2 rating, he twice overthrew open receivers inside the Lions' 20, and once put a ball in the turf short of the receiver. But he was also plagued by three dropped passes, including one by Austin at the Lions' 5 and one by Gordon in the back of the end zone.
Hoyer's stats would look a lot better if the receivers had hung on, but it was a good first outing coming off the back from his torn anterior cruciate ligament.
"There's definitely a few throws I would've liked to have back and put in a better spot,'' he said. But I also feel like nine months off of an ACL surgery to be able to play and play pretty decent, it's a step forward. You've got to just keep building and keep along that path."
Hoyer will have one more game in which to stave off the No. 22 overall pick, who's come alive over the past eight days.
Very candid self assessment of his play. He is becoming more and more likeable as well as progressing on the field. So much to like right now. Hopes are high fellas.
As soon as I saw the headline, I knew that this was a MKC write-up. I didn't even bother to read anything else.
Tony Grossi has crap-for-brains sometimes, but when the PD replaced him (following his unfortunate tweet) with her, they completely lost their credibility.
I'm not saying that a woman can't be a book writer of sports, but that's above Mary Kay's talent level. She can't even fake it. She's a joke.
Quote: If anything, the press has been really negative in their reports about Manziel. It seems like many reporters and fans want the kid to fail. They don't like him as a person, so they don't like him as a player.
I think we should just let it play out and let the best man win. At this point, it is way too early to say there are conspiracy theories or that Manziel will be handed the job. Way too early for that nonsense, bro.
I agree with the second part but disagree with the first part. Everybody seems to have an opinion on JM but from the former players and coaches I've seen on NFLN and ESPN and on the radio, I think they have been rather fair in their assessment of JM.. I haven't seen anybody say he's a sure fire HoFer, and nobody has said he's a certain bust.. most are in the middle and most toe the line that he is going to make mistakes, he needs some time to develop... now they do tend to disagree on whether they think he should start right away but I think most realize he is going to be the starter at some point..
I was thinking about this after the game last night after watching NFLN for about an hour where 3/4 of it was dedicated to the Browns and 3/4 of that was about JM... I think I finally reached my point where I was tired of hearing about the Browns. I actually wanted to see highlights of some of the other games.
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Johnny Manziel has pulled ahead of Brian Hoyer in the quarterback race following his flashy debut in Detroit, according to a report.
Citing a Browns source, ESPN's Bob Holtzman reported that Manziel has overtaken the sixth-year pro in the battle for the starting job after his promising performance in Saturday night's 13-12 loss to the Lions.
A source told cleveland.com that Manziel has the momentum and that the superior talent. They've also been pleased with his leadership and progress since the beginning of camp. If he plays well in Washington on Monday Night Football Aug. 18, he'll be very much in the conversation for that week one start in Pittsburgh.
Displaying some of his Johnny Football style, Manziel competed 7-of-11 attempts (64%) for 63 yards in four series of work with the second-team offense. He also led the Browns with 27 yards on six carries, including a 16-yard scramble after he which he slid like a major leaguer.
Manziel will most likely get the against the Redskins and Robert Griffin III, but Pettine wasn't ready to go there after the game.
"That decision hasn't been made yet,'' said Pettine.
He also declined to say which quarterback won round one of the sweepstakes, but will address the media on a conference call at 4 p.m. Sunday.
"They both did some good things," Pettine said. "They both did some things that more suited their skill set. I think Brian was high on a couple throws. I think he would want those back. He threw a couple of other nice balls in there. I thought Johnny did some nice things from the pocket. When he got out, he created a little bit as well."
Still, it's evident that Manziel will need to get some work in the with the first team offense before the Browns can declare him their man for the opener in Pittsburgh. Pettine plans to make his decision before the third preseason game Aug. 23.
"I just think I need to continue to do what the coaches are asking me to do and continue to learn and go through these situations in these games and try to handle them the best that I can while they're coming at me,'' Manziel said. "I'm sure through these next few weeks there will be adversity that I'll have to overcome.
"At the same time, that's part of this game and I need to continue to try to handle the situations the best I know how and try to put this team and my group – whichever, the ones, the twos, the threes, the fours, whatever it is – try and move the ball down the field and help our team win a game.''
Imagine if Manziel had Pro Bowlers Joe Thomas and Alex Mack blocking for him, and Pro Bowlers Jordan Cameron and Josh Gordon catching passes for him, which is conceivable in Washington if Gordon hasn't been suspended yet.
"I feel like we're getting looks with every guy on the team,'' said Manziel, who's already mastered the art of diplomacy. "Guys are doing a really good job and continuing to get more and more comfortable.''
Manziel mustered only one field goal in his four possessions, but watched his best drive fizzle on a Dion Lewis fumble at the Detroit 31 and his final march marred by offensive penalties and a dropped pass by undrafted rookie Willie Snead.
"The list of things I need to improve on could go on for days, but for me, it was a good start," Manziel said. "You have to start somewhere and you have to set a foundation, and it was good to get my feet wet. I got my first preseason game under my belt and we've got three more heading into the season.''
Operating primarily out of the pistol and read-option, he converted a fourth-and-1 on a keeper and completed a few passes on the move. But arguably his best throw of the night came from under center, when he fired a 14-yard strike to rookie Taylor Gabriel over the middle after a fake.
"I felt comfortable in the pocket,'' Manziel said. "I felt like the offensive line did a great job of holding up for me to be able to deliver that ball when we were supposed to get rid of it. I felt like the ball came out well tonight. I'm still working on getting balls out on time better and really timing things up.''
Manziel, who entered the game midway through the second quarter to a chorus of boos and some cheers, took a few hard shots from defenders eager to get a lick on the Boy Wonder. But he trotted back out onto the field for two more drives after being checked out by the medical team after one hard hit just before the field goal, and scrambled for 16 yards just after absorbing another blow. Overall, Manziel was knocked down at least three times after the throw.
"It's a football game,'' he said. "It's physical. It's part of the game, but I feel really good. I feel great.''
Pettine agreed that the sideline exam was favorable.
"It's nothing serious,'' he said.
Question is, can the under six-foot, 210-pound Manziel run that much every game and stay healthy?
"I want to move the ball down the field,'' he said. "I did as good a job as I could getting down when I needed to get down and there was a fourth down where I was happy to get the first down, happy to move the chains there. When I did get a chance to take off and run around a little bit, I got down to the chains and tried to keep the drive going. That's what it's all about.''
Manziel was stopped for no gain on his first run -- a third-and-1 -- to go three-and-out on his opening drive. But he gained 11 yards on his next two scrambles, including an 8-yarder on which he followed the block of fullback Ray Agnew. On the fourth-and-1 conversion, Manziel had Agnew wide open, but ran instead and barely made the yard around right end.
"I felt like I need to continue to exhaust my progressions a little bit more,'' he said. "There was a time I stepped up in the pocket and the seas kind of parted and the line kind of gave me a good hole to push up and take off. I needed to make a quick decision, either hang in there a second longer and make the throw or take off and luckily I got past the first wave of defensive linemen and got (16) whatever yard gain it was.''
Another time, Manziel felt the heat and took off prematurely, but will undoubtedly be more patient in the pocket with a better supporting cast. Gordon and Miles Austin worked only with the first team and Cameron had the night off because of a shoulder injury.
"Obviously that's not the plan for me to get that many carries every week,'' he said. "At the same time, the more and more I get better at progressions, the more and more I get comfortable with the play calls and the scheme and what we're trying to do and pre-snap looks, the more and more I continue to get better over time and hopefully that will weed out. The times I did take off I felt I got out of bounds, slid and tried to protect myself the best way I could.''
Manziel said all of the right things about winning the starting job, which should play well in the locker room, especially amongst the veterans.
"For me, it's all about getting better,'' he said. "If I'm the guy that puts this team in the best position to win, then we'll see what happens. But if it's not, then I'm here. At the end of the day, what I want is what's best for the Cleveland Browns. Whichever quarterback that is, whichever way I can help this team, that's what I'm all about. I'm not about having to come in, having to do this. I just need to continue to get better as a player, continue to learn, soak everything in from the film and this experience I had tonight and things will play themselves out the way they're supposed to.''
Manziel received a nice endorsement from Thomas, who's seen plenty of young quarterbacks come and go.
"He seemed to handle it really well and you didn't see any silly rookie mistakes that you'd expect out of a first-year quarterback,'' Thomas said.
Manziel wasn't ready to say that his debut gave him the confidence to face the Steelers less than a month from now, but seemed to realize that the speed and magnitude of the game weren't too much for him.
"Luckily for me there's three more games for me to get out there and learn and continue to go through different situations vs. different defenses,'' said Manziel. "I'm still going week to week and just growing up as a quarterback. I guess you guys can say (the Steelers game) is close, but at the same time there are a lot of things that will unfold from now until then that will paint a better picture for us.''
Overall, Manziel felt he operated the offense efficiently for his first time out.
"I tried to be as decisive as I could,'' he said. "There were some things that I obviously missed, which comes with the territory of being precise on these reads and our progressions. When I knew where I wanted to go and got the right look, the ball came out nice and on time and I really tried to put these guys in the best position possible to get a catch and turn upfield and get as many yards after the catch as we can.''
Hoyer managed two field goals in his three series of work, but the second came against the Lions' second-team defense. He completed 6-of-14 attempts for 92 yards, with a long completion of 28 yards to Marquis Gray. En route to a 65.2 rating, he twice overthrew open receivers inside the Lions' 20, and once put a ball in the turf short of the receiver. But he was also plagued by three dropped passes, including one by Austin at the Lions' 5 and one by Gordon in the back of the end zone.
Hoyer's stats would look a lot better if the receivers had hung on, but it was a good first outing coming off the back from his torn anterior cruciate ligament.
"There's definitely a few throws I would've liked to have back and put in a better spot,'' he said. But I also feel like nine months off of an ACL surgery to be able to play and play pretty decent, it's a step forward. You've got to just keep building and keep along that path."
Hoyer will have one more game in which to stave off the No. 22 overall pick, who's come alive over the past eight days.
I just can't stand Mary Kay... Pretty sure coach said before last night that Manziel would probably start game two... maybe not, but thought I read that somewhere.
Mary Kay is just looking for a headline to get readers...
Quote: Pretty sure coach said before last night that Manziel would probably start game two... maybe not, but thought I read that somewhere.
You probably did read it but it didn't come from Pettine. He was asked last night after the game the specific question.. the guy asked, it's reported that Manziel is going to start against the Redskins, is that true? and Pettine's response was, not sure where you heard that but that decision hasn't been made yet.
If he doesn't I think it's safe to say he isn't going to start the season because he said he wanted a decision before the 3rd game.. can't see JM not starting either game one or two but then being named the starter. I think he will start, I don't think you can really say this is a competition unless they let him start and play 3 series with the ones..
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Johnny Manziel has pulled ahead of Brian Hoyer in the quarterback race following his flashy debut in Detroit, according to a report.
Citing a Browns source, ESPN's Bob Holtzman reported that Manziel has overtaken the sixth-year pro in the battle for the starting job after his promising performance in Saturday night's 13-12 loss to the Lions.
A source told cleveland.com that Manziel has the momentum and that the superior talent. They've also been pleased with his leadership and progress since the beginning of camp. If he plays well in Washington on Monday Night Football Aug. 18, he'll be very much in the conversation for that week one start in Pittsburgh.
Displaying some of his Johnny Football style, Manziel competed 7-of-11 attempts (64%) for 63 yards in four series of work with the second-team offense. He also led the Browns with 27 yards on six carries, including a 16-yard scramble after he which he slid like a major leaguer.
Manziel will most likely get the against the Redskins and Robert Griffin III, but Pettine wasn't ready to go there after the game.
"That decision hasn't been made yet,'' said Pettine.
He also declined to say which quarterback won round one of the sweepstakes, but will address the media on a conference call at 4 p.m. Sunday.
"They both did some good things," Pettine said. "They both did some things that more suited their skill set. I think Brian was high on a couple throws. I think he would want those back. He threw a couple of other nice balls in there. I thought Johnny did some nice things from the pocket. When he got out, he created a little bit as well."
Still, it's evident that Manziel will need to get some work in the with the first team offense before the Browns can declare him their man for the opener in Pittsburgh. Pettine plans to make his decision before the third preseason game Aug. 23.
"I just think I need to continue to do what the coaches are asking me to do and continue to learn and go through these situations in these games and try to handle them the best that I can while they're coming at me,'' Manziel said. "I'm sure through these next few weeks there will be adversity that I'll have to overcome.
"At the same time, that's part of this game and I need to continue to try to handle the situations the best I know how and try to put this team and my group – whichever, the ones, the twos, the threes, the fours, whatever it is – try and move the ball down the field and help our team win a game.''
Imagine if Manziel had Pro Bowlers Joe Thomas and Alex Mack blocking for him, and Pro Bowlers Jordan Cameron and Josh Gordon catching passes for him, which is conceivable in Washington if Gordon hasn't been suspended yet.
"I feel like we're getting looks with every guy on the team,'' said Manziel, who's already mastered the art of diplomacy. "Guys are doing a really good job and continuing to get more and more comfortable.''
Manziel mustered only one field goal in his four possessions, but watched his best drive fizzle on a Dion Lewis fumble at the Detroit 31 and his final march marred by offensive penalties and a dropped pass by undrafted rookie Willie Snead.
"The list of things I need to improve on could go on for days, but for me, it was a good start," Manziel said. "You have to start somewhere and you have to set a foundation, and it was good to get my feet wet. I got my first preseason game under my belt and we've got three more heading into the season.''
Operating primarily out of the pistol and read-option, he converted a fourth-and-1 on a keeper and completed a few passes on the move. But arguably his best throw of the night came from under center, when he fired a 14-yard strike to rookie Taylor Gabriel over the middle after a fake.
"I felt comfortable in the pocket,'' Manziel said. "I felt like the offensive line did a great job of holding up for me to be able to deliver that ball when we were supposed to get rid of it. I felt like the ball came out well tonight. I'm still working on getting balls out on time better and really timing things up.''
Manziel, who entered the game midway through the second quarter to a chorus of boos and some cheers, took a few hard shots from defenders eager to get a lick on the Boy Wonder. But he trotted back out onto the field for two more drives after being checked out by the medical team after one hard hit just before the field goal, and scrambled for 16 yards just after absorbing another blow. Overall, Manziel was knocked down at least three times after the throw.
"It's a football game,'' he said. "It's physical. It's part of the game, but I feel really good. I feel great.''
Pettine agreed that the sideline exam was favorable.
"It's nothing serious,'' he said.
Question is, can the under six-foot, 210-pound Manziel run that much every game and stay healthy?
"I want to move the ball down the field,'' he said. "I did as good a job as I could getting down when I needed to get down and there was a fourth down where I was happy to get the first down, happy to move the chains there. When I did get a chance to take off and run around a little bit, I got down to the chains and tried to keep the drive going. That's what it's all about.''
Manziel was stopped for no gain on his first run -- a third-and-1 -- to go three-and-out on his opening drive. But he gained 11 yards on his next two scrambles, including an 8-yarder on which he followed the block of fullback Ray Agnew. On the fourth-and-1 conversion, Manziel had Agnew wide open, but ran instead and barely made the yard around right end.
"I felt like I need to continue to exhaust my progressions a little bit more,'' he said. "There was a time I stepped up in the pocket and the seas kind of parted and the line kind of gave me a good hole to push up and take off. I needed to make a quick decision, either hang in there a second longer and make the throw or take off and luckily I got past the first wave of defensive linemen and got (16) whatever yard gain it was.''
Another time, Manziel felt the heat and took off prematurely, but will undoubtedly be more patient in the pocket with a better supporting cast. Gordon and Miles Austin worked only with the first team and Cameron had the night off because of a shoulder injury.
"Obviously that's not the plan for me to get that many carries every week,'' he said. "At the same time, the more and more I get better at progressions, the more and more I get comfortable with the play calls and the scheme and what we're trying to do and pre-snap looks, the more and more I continue to get better over time and hopefully that will weed out. The times I did take off I felt I got out of bounds, slid and tried to protect myself the best way I could.''
Manziel said all of the right things about winning the starting job, which should play well in the locker room, especially amongst the veterans.
"For me, it's all about getting better,'' he said. "If I'm the guy that puts this team in the best position to win, then we'll see what happens. But if it's not, then I'm here. At the end of the day, what I want is what's best for the Cleveland Browns. Whichever quarterback that is, whichever way I can help this team, that's what I'm all about. I'm not about having to come in, having to do this. I just need to continue to get better as a player, continue to learn, soak everything in from the film and this experience I had tonight and things will play themselves out the way they're supposed to.''
Manziel received a nice endorsement from Thomas, who's seen plenty of young quarterbacks come and go.
"He seemed to handle it really well and you didn't see any silly rookie mistakes that you'd expect out of a first-year quarterback,'' Thomas said.
Manziel wasn't ready to say that his debut gave him the confidence to face the Steelers less than a month from now, but seemed to realize that the speed and magnitude of the game weren't too much for him.
"Luckily for me there's three more games for me to get out there and learn and continue to go through different situations vs. different defenses,'' said Manziel. "I'm still going week to week and just growing up as a quarterback. I guess you guys can say (the Steelers game) is close, but at the same time there are a lot of things that will unfold from now until then that will paint a better picture for us.''
Overall, Manziel felt he operated the offense efficiently for his first time out.
"I tried to be as decisive as I could,'' he said. "There were some things that I obviously missed, which comes with the territory of being precise on these reads and our progressions. When I knew where I wanted to go and got the right look, the ball came out nice and on time and I really tried to put these guys in the best position possible to get a catch and turn upfield and get as many yards after the catch as we can.''
Hoyer managed two field goals in his three series of work, but the second came against the Lions' second-team defense. He completed 6-of-14 attempts for 92 yards, with a long completion of 28 yards to Marquis Gray. En route to a 65.2 rating, he twice overthrew open receivers inside the Lions' 20, and once put a ball in the turf short of the receiver. But he was also plagued by three dropped passes, including one by Austin at the Lions' 5 and one by Gordon in the back of the end zone.
Hoyer's stats would look a lot better if the receivers had hung on, but it was a good first outing coming off the back from his torn anterior cruciate ligament.
"There's definitely a few throws I would've liked to have back and put in a better spot,'' he said. But I also feel like nine months off of an ACL surgery to be able to play and play pretty decent, it's a step forward. You've got to just keep building and keep along that path."
Hoyer will have one more game in which to stave off the No. 22 overall pick, who's come alive over the past eight days.
I just can't stand Mary Kay... Pretty sure coach said before last night that Manziel would probably start game two... maybe not, but thought I read that somewhere.
Mary Kay is just looking for a headline to get readers...
Geesh. of course she's trying to get readers, but all she did in this article is report what someone else reported quoting a Browns source. Mary Kay is just looking for a headline to get readers...
Here is the 2nd sentence of the article:
Quote: Citing a Browns source, ESPN's Bob Holtzman reported that Manziel has overtaken the sixth-year pro in the battle for the starting job after his promising performance in Saturday night's 13-12 loss to the Lions.
So what is bad reporting about that? She reported what someone else reported, quoting a Browns source. That happens all the time among sports reporters.
I sometimes think that people learn to dislike a sports reporter so much that they ignore what they actually report. She made a factual report. She stated what another reporter, quoting a Browns source, said. She then also quoted another source saying that Manziel has momentum and superior talent. Duh. Anyone can see that. he is coming on faster than Hoyer is running away, and I don't think that anyone who has been paying attention would debate that. She says that the source mentioned Manziel's superior talent. Again ...duh. Of course Manziel has superior talent. He was picked in the 1st. Hoyer wasn't drafted at all. Hoyer has made himself what he is today through lots of hard work, but no one would look at the 2 and say that they are equally talented on an innate basis.
Not going to get into a pissing match with you over it Ytown, we get along too well... BUT have you been reading all of her articles lately? She's done everything she can to talk up JFF and down play Hoyer. She's trying to hitch her wagon to JFF's rising star and it's sickening. I know a lot of the media hype is about JFF, but she's a local reporter and I expect more from her than to be just another hoople-head.
I don't care who starts, I just want a fair competition and the best man to win based solely on the competition; not media induced hysteria. I have pretty much disliked her since she took over for Tony with Hey Mary Kay... she's a dolt.
Quote: She said Campbell was a franchise QB, right?
I think whatever cred she had at that time completely evaporated.
Yeah, and she explained that it was because her father was proud of her for being the Browns beat writer for the newspaper. Whatever. My wife, who is not particularly knowledgeable of Browns football, could write better stuff and sound more convincing than Mary Kay. She should probably change her name to Mary Jane Cabot because she's obviously smoking something.
Quote: Not going to get into a pissing match with you over it Ytown, we get along too well... BUT have you been reading all of her articles lately? She's done everything she can to talk up JFF and down play Hoyer. She's trying to hitch her wagon to JFF's rising star and it's sickening. I know a lot of the media hype is about JFF, but she's a local reporter and I expect more from her than to be just another hoople-head.
I don't care who starts, I just want a fair competition and the best man to win based solely on the competition; not media induced hysteria. I have pretty much disliked her since she took over for Tony with Hey Mary Kay... she's a dolt.
Quote: Not going to get into a pissing match with you over it Ytown, we get along too well... BUT have you been reading all of her articles lately? She's done everything she can to talk up JFF and down play Hoyer. She's trying to hitch her wagon to JFF's rising star and it's sickening. I know a lot of the media hype is about JFF, but she's a local reporter and I expect more from her than to be just another hoople-head.
I don't care who starts, I just want a fair competition and the best man to win based solely on the competition; not media induced hysteria. I have pretty much disliked her since she took over for Tony with Hey Mary Kay... she's a dolt.
Quote: So what is bad reporting about that? She reported what someone else reported, quoting a Browns source. That happens all the time among sports reporters.
What's bad about it is that she is the local Browns beat writer for the local major newspaper.
She can't get her own sources in the building to give her something? She's getting her writing material from others without really knowing how good that source is.
Nothing she ever writes about is original stuff. You really should expect a bit more from the beat writer for a newspaper in a city with a major league team.
Frankly, to me, she is a black eye for sports writing in Cleveland. I read better stuff by reporters that cover multiple teams (at all levels) on website blogs. She atrocious!
Quote: Frankly, to me, she continues a rich tradition of black-eyed sports-writers in Cleveland.
Edited it for ya.
She's always been a QB-honk with slanted thoughts well-before she was promoted. Her amateur-hour belly-rubbing of her father on Father's Day was one of the worst bush-league moves I've ever seen. She's been in over her head for years and that "article" doesn't show anything akin to growth, only slant.
But after years of watching garbage compositions from the likes of Roger Brown, Tony Grossi, and Mary K, well, I'm kinda just numb to the entire thing.
Oh brother ..... if she quotes one of her sources .. people bitch. If she quotes another writer, (as all beat writers wind up having to do from time to time) then people bitch.
My suggestion for those who don't like her writing would be ...... don't read her articles.
) thought that Weeden had turned a corner. It's way too early to know how Bridgewater, or Manziel, will go yet.
