continue here

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/johnny_manziels_fate_was_in_th.html

Johnny Manziel's fate was in Mike Pettine's hands, but as Browns' coach fights for survival roles appear reversed: Tom Reed

BEREA, Ohio – Mike Pettine probably knew this scenario would unfold from the night the Browns drafted Johnny Manziel 20 months ago.

The first-time head coach was like the dad of college-age daughters who bought a tidy beachfront condo only to see Charlie Sheen move in next door. It's been one worry after another even as Pettine's playboy quarterback has made undeniable on-field progress under his reconfigured coaching staff.

For much of their time together, Pettine has controlled the fate of Manziel. Now, as the coach makes a case to keep his job in the throes of a 3-10 season, the roles are reversed. He needs a player in whom he's never completely trusted to navigate a brutal stretch drive and convince ownership to stay the course for another year.

Master chef Michael Symon could not serve a dish of irony as delicious.

"I don't get wrapped up in that," Pettine said Monday when asked about his future with the club and how owner Jimmy Haslam wants to see end-of-season progress.

"I have more than enough on my plate. ... We are going to coach our tails off. We are going to go out and play with the same effort and focus that we played with (Sunday) and then some. However it falls out, it falls out."

Pettine took a positive first step with a 24-10 thumping of the inept Niners at FirstEnergy Stadium. It marked the Browns' most complete performance of the season, highlighted by Manziel's strong outing fresh from a two-game grounding for his dishonest depiction of a recent weekend escapade in Austin, Texas.

Johnny benched

Johnny benched

Mike Pettine demoted Johnny Manziel not just because he partied over the bye weekend when he promised he wouldn't, but because he tried to cover it up.

The quarterback earned another shot in part because battered Josh McCown broke his clavicle against the Ravens and Austin Davis could not rally the team in a 37-3 loss to the Bengals. Circumstance enabled Pettine to go back to Manziel, who ended the team's seven-game losing Sunday.

The quarterback made plays inside and out of the pocket, building on momentum from his effort against the Steelers, which came before his latest Pettine-imposed timeout. Manziel, who's rarely been held accountable by anyone other than the Browns coach, wasn't thrilled with the punishment. He said last week he was "forced to learn a hard lesson."

His rebellious nature won't be curbed by Pettine or anybody else, but if the Browns can harness Manziel's swagger and continue the development a happy medium might – I say might – be reached. A more pressing concern, however, is what Manziel's play affords them over the final three weeks.

It's hard to imagine the Browns winning in Seattle (8-5) and Kansas City (8-5) or beating the Steelers (8-5) in the season finale, especially as injuries mount. All three opponents are playing well and fighting for playoff stakes.

A coach's longevity is intertwined with his quarterback's success. Nowhere is that more apparent than in Cleveland. Pettine needs Manziel to excel if the Browns have any chance in these games. If they get drubbed, the quarterback's future transgressions will be another coach's problem – here or elsewhere.

Safety Donte Whitner made a plea for ownership to retain Pettine and the coaching staff, blaming the poor record on the players. It's a nice gesture, but Pettine's job status is imperiled because his defense consistently underachieved.

Does anyone see the Browns harassing Russell Wilson and Ben Roethlisberger the way they did Blaine Gabbert? No, Pettine's best opportunity for survival hinges on Manziel and the offense. The quarterback doesn't have to run the table, but the Browns need a win or two with him playing at a high level. I don't see it happening, but if it does Pettine might be able to sell Haslam on the progress.

The owner understands the importance of continuity and if sees his beloved SEC quarterback thriving against top-flight and desperate opposition maybe he gives Pettine's staff – with some alterations -- one more year.

The coach praised Manziel's performance during a Monday conference call and defended the youngster from more outside criticism. He again lauded his preparation and work ethic, which were absent a year ago when the coach led the Browns to seven wins while dealing with myriad off-field brush fires.

Pettine's issues are rooted in Manziel's behavior away from the facility, but right now his focus is on a quality showing in Seattle.

"We know that this is a formidable opponent in one of the most hostile environments in the league," Pettine said. "We're going to go up there and cut it loose."

The coach has nowhere else to turn. Brian Hoyer is in Houston. McCown's arm is in a sling.

In Johnny Manziel he trusts. Oh, the irony.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...re-in-cleveland


NFL Grades Week 14: Johnny Manziel looks like the future in Cleveland
By John Breech | CBSSports.com
December 13, 2015 11:42 pm ET

It turns out that Johnny Football can actually play football when his coach lets him.

After two weeks of keeping Johnny Manziel on the bench, Browns coach Mike Pettine finally unleashed Mr. Money Signs on the NFL this week and the decision paid off.

If Sunday's game against the 49ers was an audition for Manziel, then the Browns have to start thinking seriously about making Manziel the team's starter in 2016. Johnny Football was almost perfect against the 49ers, throwing for 270 yards and a touchdown in Cleveland's 24-10 win.

Manziel has now been the starter in two of Cleveland's three wins this season.

Manziel's Sunday got off to a money start when he decided to autograph a $100 bill for a Browns fan.

The $100 bill must have rubbed off on him because Manziel was money on the field.

Johnny Football came out firing for the Browns. On Cleveland's first four offensive drives, Manziel was impressive, completing 10 of 14 passes for 135 yards. The only reason the Browns didn't win this game 50-10 is because Cleveland kept shooting itself in the foot, which had nothing to do with Manziel.

Johnny Manziel was all smiles on Sunday. (USATSI) Johnny Manziel was all smiles on Sunday. (USATSI)

The Browns scored 10 points on those first four possessions, which would've been more if not for a blocked field goal and a lost fumble.

The impressive thing about what Manziel did is that he did it with only one healthy receiver, Travis Benjamin. Two of the Browns' top-four receivers didn't play on Sunday (Andrew Hawkins, Tyler Gabriel) and another top receiver, Brian Hartline, had to leave the game in the third quarter.

Johnny Football wasn't fazed by those losses though.

Manziel really only made one big mistake in the game and that came on a second quarter pass that he threw off his backfoot, across his body.

You know Manziel's taking things seriously now because he was visibly upset after throwing the pick.

(Note to Johnny's parents: Don't get him a Microsoft Surface for Christmas).

The thing about Manziel is that when he's good, it opens up the Browns offense.

Running back Isaiah Crowell is probably Manziel's biggest fan, espcially after Sunday. Since Manziel's a threat to run, the opposing defense has to take that into account and that can mean bigger holes for the running back like it did for Crowell, who rushed for 145 yards.

As a matter of fact, the Browns' rushing total on Sunday (230) was their highest total since also hitting 230 yards in 2010.

If Manziel wants to tighten his grip on the starting job for 2016, all he'll need to do is win one of Cleveland's final three games, which is a lot easier said than done. Over the final three weeks of the season, the Browns travel to Seattle and Kansas City, before hosting the Steelers in Week 17.

If Manziel wins one of those, he should probably be named a starter for life. If Manziel does win though, Pettine could be the big loser because the front office will want to know why Manziel wasn't starting earlier in the season and why he didn't keep the starting job after beating the Titans in Week 2.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/...e-and-awareness

Johnny Manziel's growth seen in pocket presence and awareness

Johnny Manziel had better results when standing in the pocket than he did on the run during the Cleveland Browns’ win over San Francisco on Sunday.

That as much as anything shows Manziel’s growth as an NFL quarterback.

Against the 49ers, Manziel stood in the pocket on 25 of his 31 throws. He only scrambled on six plays.
In the pocket Sunday, Johnny Manziel completed 17 of 25 passes for 182 yards, with one touchdown and no interceptions. AP Photo/David Richard

The numbers from ESPN Stats and Information break down this way:

In the pocket, Manziel completed 17 of 25 passes for 182 yards, with one touchdown and no interceptions. Passer rating: 102.4

Outside the pocket, Manziel was 4-of-6 for 88 yards, with no touchdowns and the one glaring interception. Passer rating: 70.1

It’s a measure of Manziel’s growth that he is learning to operate in an NFL system the NFL way. San Francisco is not Seattle, Sunday’s opponent, but that doesn’t change what Manziel did.

He stood in the pocket and made throws, and when the need arose, he moved around and made something happen.

It’s the exact order of the process that coach Mike Pettine referred to when he discussed Manziel at halftime of the loss to Cincinnati. NFL quarterbacks succeed and have a longer shelf life with pocket presence and success. Scrambling is not discouraged, but it’s the second step in the play call.

But Manziel is so used to throwing on the move from college that when he does run in the NFL, he has shown he can be effective.

“He is able to continue plays from four to six, seven seconds,” tight end Gary Barnidge said on a conference call. “That is tough for a defense to cover anyone that long.”

It’s interesting that Barnidge said Manziel’s ability to move makes him unique, but in the 24-10 win Sunday he didn’t move that often.( That may be the most encouraging fact about Manziel’s game.

“He is improving and he is just going to keep getting better week in and week out,” Barnidge said.

“The mistake before the half (the interception) is well documented,” coach Mike Pettine said. “That’s glaring. But other than that, I just thought he was in great command of the huddle. I thought he had a great sense of the plan and how they were playing us and making in-game adjustments.

“Overall, he made good decisions, was accurate with the football and when he could stay in the pocket, he did and made plays, and there were times -- we all saw -- he has that special ability to extend the play and was able to do that numerous times with solid success.

“Overall, I think it was a good day for him.”

With Manziel always comes discussion about his off-field issues. Fair or not, it’s part of him until it goes away, or until his success on the field overshadows what he does off it.

Barnidge said the coaching staff deals with things like that. The role of the players on the team is to support Manziel. And he said the players “are going to be behind him no matter what.”

“We are a team,” Barnidge said. “You have to stick behind everyone on the team. You can’t just alienate certain people and say, ‘Oh, we are not dealing with you because of this, this and this.’ All together, we are a team. We are going to need everyone on the team to succeed.

“When it comes to all the other stuff, that is what the coaches help with. We talk to him and we do all that type of stuff as well, but he has to hear it from the coaches, as well as from us. He is going to learn. That is everybody. Any player in general, it should be the same way.”

Barnidge also shrugged off Manziel missing him on the first-half interception that led to the now-famous scene of the quarterback hitting himself in the forehead with a tablet five times on the bench.

“It happens to everybody,” Barnidge said. “He is going to see it and he is going to learn from it and get better.”

I still don't blame the coach for benching him. He deserved it. Not for partying but for lying about it.

It takes guts to do that given the teams record and pettine chances for continued employment here.

Seen/heard a fair amount on Manziel the last couple days. Most of it positive, some glowing in that he's really turned a corner and looks like the guy, some more moderate in that there was improvement but still a long way to go, and then Merrill Hoge saying that he looks a little better but fully expect to see him suck the last 3 weeks against real defenses.

I am not really sticking up for Manziel, but we don't know what was said before he left for the bye. Maybe Manziel felt like he had no other way out.

Also, the point of the article is spot on, if Manziel keeps playing well, why was he not playing long ago?

A good friend posed a question that I am going to use. This team, might not be big enough for both Pettine and Manziel...which one would you choose?

Does anyone see the Browns harassing Russell Wilson and Ben Roethlisberger the way they did Blaine Gabbert? No,

Ummm...Mr. Reed, we haven't played the Seahawks yet...got to wait till after Sunday to say that if you can (which I hope you can't)... Sometimes I wonder about Bozos

smh

daman...I totally agree...

For all of Manziel's bad behavior from HS to A&M to the Browns...the punishment Pettine handed down was the first time Johnny was made to pay a price for his bad behavior.

Johnny has always managed to wiggle out of any real discipline without paying a price.

Pettine didn't treat rookie Johnny like anyone special, handing out punishment when necessary, but nothing too harsh.

This time though, Pettine made the punishment fit the crime, making it hurt Manziel for maybe the first time.

I seriously doubt that Manziel will disrespect Pettine again..and that is progress folks.

Wonder who are receivers are going to be this week?

Benjamin & Moore (I prefer Jennings) but like both. Gabriel might be back??? Pryor should see some action. Bowe can stay in street clothes for all I care he's just a player for us to wait when the best time to release him cap wise.

I wouldn't mind seeing Crowell as RB and us spreading out wide with Johnson

As much as I hate to admit it, I guess I'm going to have to back off Pet on this one. Still think Pet treated Johnny like a red-headed step child, but on this one I guess it was right.

peen...yes, you are sticking up for Manziel, completely excusing his lying and attempting to get others to lie for him.

No one made Johnny do that, BUT JOHNNY. He lied to his coach and was made to pay a price for that lying.



I can remember a discussion about Manziel's progress earlier in the year..Pettine was pleased that Johnny stayed in the pocket long enough to make one read, before taking off.

...that is why he was not playing, he needed more work to learn how to play the position of QB in the NFL.

...plus, he could not beat out McCown, so Pettine played the best QB.



Browns fans are about to find out just how smart Jimmy Haslam is...his record speaks for itself..he is worse than Randy Lerner was when it comes to establishing continuity.

Taylor Gabriel was a healthy scratch

Pettine said Gabriel, who was cleared from the concussion protocol last week, could've played, but was inactive.

"He was really just kind of an insurance policy for Travis,'' he said. "We didn't think we would have Travis early in the week. It ended up just being a numbers game and giving him an extra week. With Hartline being down, we certainly anticipate Gabe being up this week."

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

would think he will replace Brian Hartline and Terrelle Pryor will play again too......

I'm kinda been thinking the samething. If Pet really does not like Johnny(I really don't think he does), then who goes? My vote would be Pettine because that's Jimmy's boy.

Thanks.

That was somewhat interesting.

Pettine gets my respect. If this helps JFF grow up and make a pile of cash, tough love helped. Browns have been giving him breaks; hope it pays off.

Slobbering to draft a great anything but QB in the next draft.

Pettine wouldn't had started JM if Josh Mc wasn't injured.

http://www.businessinsider.com/johnny-manziel-is-one-of-nfls-best-young-quarterbacks-2015-12

Johnny Manziel has gone under the radar and become one of the NFL's most exciting young quarterbacks

Through 12 career games, Johnny Manziel has been viewed differently than most other young quarterbacks.

Manziel is undoubtedly a polarizing figure, and his off-field antics haven't necessarily helped his reputation.

However, where other young quarterbacks are often provided the excuse of being young, inexperienced, and still learning, Manziel's flaws and occasional missteps oddly seem to be noted more often.

Perhaps the lens through which we view Manziel is the problem. Manziel is a second-year quarterback who's blown chances for more on-field action by taking his role lightly, such as when he was benched for partying during the Browns' bye week just a few days after being named the starter. The move cost Manziel two games as he sat as punishment, though it's worth noting that partying during a weekend off is hardly the worst thing an athlete can do or has done off the field.

Looked at through a different lens, Manziel can be seen as a rookie — a player who's only played in 12 games, starting just six of them, playing in an unstable situation with a coach who isn't totally ready to commit to him. Again, while some of that has had to do with Manziel's own missteps or lack of preparation, he still hasn't played a full season, much less had much of a chance as a starter.

To take it a step further, Manziel's rookie year was basically a throw-away. He played just five games, with only one full start, which went disastrously. Some of that was Manziel's own bad play, but some of it was also because of an offensive line that was embarrassed by the Cincinnati Bengals. He started the next game, got hurt early, and didn't play again.

This season, Manziel was slated as the backup again. Only after Josh McCown suffered a first-quarter concussion in the season-opener did Manziel get to play. Manziel played well in Week 1, albeit in a loss, but led the Browns to a win in an efficient Week 2 performance. However, when McCown was healthy the next week, Manziel got benched, and he didn't start again until Week 9.

Throwing away Manziel's second career start in 2014, in which he threw just eight passes before getting injured, Manziel's five starts have been promising, as he's shown improvement over time:

Johnny Manziel startsVia Business Insider

These numbers won't wow anybody, and the extra time Manziel has had over almost two seasons surely benefit him over actual rookies. But at the core, the Brows are 2-3 with Manziel as a starter and he has a 59% completion rate, five touchdowns, four interceptions, and an 84.1 passer rating. Perfectly fine numbers for a new quarterback.

Compare this to Jameis Winston, who in his first five starts had a 58.3% completion rate, seven touchdowns with six interceptions, and an 85.5 passer rating. Or Marcus Mariota, who had a 66.8% completion rate, nine touchdowns, five interceptions, and 94.9 average passer rating in his first five games.

Even Blake Bortles, who's sixth in passing yards and third in passing touchdowns this season, had a rough start, going 1-4 in his first five starts with a 63% completion rate, four touchdowns, and 10 interceptions last season. The Jaguars stuck with him and now he looks every bit like a starting quarterback.

Again, Manziel is in his second year, meaning he's had that much more time to adjust, work with coaches, other players, and study the game. Nonetheless, at 23 years old, Manziel's finish to the 2015 season is seen as a "tryout" in the NFL, a chance to prove he belongs, while Winston, Mariota, and Bortles are are generally viewed as future franchise staples.

Manziel has been knocked in other areas. His size has been listed as a weakness, but at six feet, 210 lb. (according to his NFL page), he's taller and heavier than Russell Wilson and the same height as Drew Brees.

Manziel's reliance on athleticism has also been knocked, as if his speed and scrambling abilities are bad things. Instead, over a relatively short time, Manziel has improved as a pocket passer and has seemingly gotten better at extending plays to make completions.

While the 49ers' defense Manziel faced in Week 14 wasn't exactly like playing the Broncos, Manziel looked poised and dangerous under center. He was able to hang tough in the pocket:

Your browser does not support the video tag. Via NFL.com

He's also dangerous in play-action when he has more time to pass and can use his legs more often:

Your browser does not support the video tag. Via NFL.com

Sure, Manziel slamming a Microsoft Surface on his head after an ugly interception was both funny and noteworthy, but the positive things Manziel did in getting the Browns their third win of the season far outweighed the bad.

After the game, Manziel seemed to acknowledge that he's trying to improve upon his limited experience, telling reporters (via Cleveland.com's Mary Kay Cabot), "I've only gotten to play six or seven games. I know the number is starting to climb, but for me, these mean a lot to me. I still have a lot to prove. I feel like I'm just getting started. I'm going to continue to play, continue to fight."

Mike Pettine was half-hearted in his praise for Manziel, saying he did more good than bad, although avoiding showering Manziel with praise just one game after being benched is understandable.

Given Manziel's age and relative inexperience, what he's done in his limited time on the field should be seen in a positive light, much like other young quarterbacks.

The Browns remain a team in transition, but committing to a 23-year-old who has a knack for keeping plays alive while improving his overall IQ and pocket presence should be a priority. If the Browns are able to surround him with a solid offensive line and real weapons at running back and wide receiver, there's no reason Manziel shouldn't be viewed as an exciting young prospect in the NFL, rather than a player fighting to keep his career alive.

Pettine wouldn't had started JM if Josh Mc wasn't injured.

I see you are saying for the last 4 games. When they demoted him and before McCown's injury they did leave the door open for him to start sometime during the season.

When we named him starter in the bye week McCown was healthy enough to start the 6 games...then got hurt. But we named Manziel the starter.

I think Pettine did the right thing and he was excited for Manziel during the last game - the one bright spot this year has been the handling of the QBs.

jmho

Sad when a total newbie at that position, I mean total as in likely hasn't ever played the position, gets the call over your 9million guaranteed mistake.

I suspect TP will get the call again. I wish he would have blocked, or least got his hands on someone, during one of Crow's big runs and he was downfield but eh. Hopefully Pryor watches the tape and gets more eager next time.

...

As for JF, lets hope he can get his off-field life together, because on the field he's becoming to show large amounts of improvements. Sometimes he looks so calm in the pocket, it's as-if there isn't even a game going on around him.

In what world is 168 yards on it's own something to get excited about? Manziel has gone for over 650 yards in his last two starts, one of them against Pittsburgh.

The most important thing isn't the numbers, though... I agree you can't be told much from the stat line, but we certainly can see the things that he's doing better. On the very first passing play of the game on Sunday, Manziel went to his third read and delivered an accurate ball as Pasztor was being pushed back into him, he stood in the pocket and delivered an accurate pass to the open man despite smacking his hand on Pasztor's helmet. That is marked improvement over what we saw last season.

I know you won't rest until our entire roster is made up of Pac-12 players, but for me, at this point Goff is kind of "Johnny Lite."

I'm really really hoping that Manziel looks good the last few weeks, the Browns are competitive in every game, maybe even squeaking out a win or 2.. and both stay.

But that's optimism, so some will call it unrealistic.

I hope this is the case as well. I also really think it should be.

The bright spot has been the QB play and how Josh Mc has mentored the other QB's unlike Hoyer. I'm not so sure the coaches handled it all so well. IMO bringing in Josh Mc has paid big dividends for the QB room.

Yeah. I agree with this post. I'm not totally against how the coaches handled it, but not totally supportive of it either (if that makes any sense.)

Josh has been a great addition. He seemed to be the first person there, cast and all, waiting to talk to JF or high-five him and I've not heard a single bad comment come from any player's mouth regarding Josh.

He is a true lockerroom/team guy, and he's a mentor 100% opposite of Brian.

To be fair, McCown knows he's at the back end of his career and he knows this isn't his long term gig so it's to his benefit to be a mentor. Hoyer envisioned himself as an NFL starter, which he should, and he wasn't going to teach the new guy how to take his job.

Not to mention, McCown got to work with the new and improved Manziel, Hoyer had the butthead rookie Manziel.. which I'm sure made a difference in their desire to work with him.

To be fair? Hoyer will never be a team player. (Probably why he was realesed from the Patriots) Josh Mc has always been a team player

I see anything positive in mentoring and teaching and in that QB room was the players coaching themselves. ??? Am I mistaken in your meaning?

Hoyer was released because they drafted Mallet.. then Mallet was traded because they drafted Garoppolo

Umm..wrong....Hoyer was retained after they drafted Mallet.

Nope.

It's water under the bridge, and the guy has his faults for sure, but Hoyer's teammates have always gotten along with him for the most part. It's been that way since high school.

For one year...

mccowns looking for a job coaching after he done here. jmo.... i think he was coaching somewhere in collage/highschool when the bears brought him back????

If Johnny plays well, I have no problem picking a QB high, and I have no issue not picking a QB high. Just pick good players.

Then Mallett was released because they had Hoyer. Funny how that came full circle.

But yeah, Hoyer didn't mentor Johnny because he thought he was a legit NFL starting QB. The Browns didn't think he was worth a big contract and wanted to groom Manziel.

It sounds like you are putting too much stock in some sort of magic sauce that Manziel has.

When BB probably noticed Hoyer wasn't a team player and not mentoring Mallet as expected.

I was just pointing out how ludicrous it is to say that we know could know Manziel is the guy after one game in Seattle. Blaine Gabbert, the same Blaine Gabbert that we just faced, played well in Seattle not even a month ago.



I agree that numbers are not the most important thing. I was just using them as an example because if Manziel has numbers equivalent to some of the ones I've posted above people are going to act like he's the savior.



I don't care if we draft players from the Pac-12. I just see them more than any others, so that's who I say we should draft. If it is determined that another QB is better than Goff, I would prefer that player over Manziel. Last year my favorite player in the draft was Jalston Fowler.

From Swish:



Manziel's chance at being a bust is much higher than most QBs because of his off the field issues.

And why the FO didn't care if he signed somewhere else as a FA.

Or it's because BB has only kept 3 QB's on the roster twice since 2008.

Nah ... he was let go because Hoyer wasn't a team player. BB knew Hoyer was a better QB than Mallet but didn't care because he wasn't a team player and said Buh Bye

I don't think it matters what was said prior to bye week. He did what he did which in my eyes isn't all that bad really. But to flat out lie to your coach, that's a HUGE no no.

Sorry, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Right, Bill Belichick expected his undrafted back-up with 2 years of NFL experience on the bench and 40 NFL pass attempts to mentor his new 3rd round back-up rookie QB.. that happens all the time.

We still need some big guys to protect manziel,or any QB behind center,and the running game needs to improve.
Dont waste the top pick..this year is a write off.
I just hope Johnny stays healthy,the last 3 games.

No, I am not sticking up for him. I don't like the fact he lied either. What I don't like is it was a non issue and somehow JM felt like the coach would feel it was. I get it....coach doesn't like Johnny Football. He wants Johnny Manziel. This never should have even gone to this point. Pet needs to care only abbout what happens on the field unless his players actions might keep him off the field. Since when are you in favor of a boss telling a employee what they need to do when off the field, on a week off?


As for Haslam, I'll take him over Lerner if for no other reason, he has a passion for football and is competitive in nature. Lerner wasn't very competitive and didn't really like football.

I've been thinking that, if the Browns aren't going to keep him on the roster after this season, they should offer him an assistant QB coach position. He may want to try to continue playing, but if he's ready to transition, we would be wise to keep him here.

j/c

You watch Manziel will make it real hard to make the decision to cut or trade. I also bet Browns finish well last three games taking them out of position to draft one of the two best QBs. Leaving Haslam with a tough decision whether to blow it up or not.

He'll sit on it to long then decided to dump and play catch up with the cupboard of FO talent empty.

me? would rather have someone like jake delhomme doing it. not only did he help colt but he also hung out with him after hours... a QB that was could really play at one point in time and knows the effort it takes....

For the guys who still feel let down by Johnny for screwing up last year and the lesser mistakes this year, it will take more than a few games to change their minds. I totally understand that. But if he builds on last week and plays well the rest of the way, I don't see how you are going to call for Johnny to be cut and a QB to be selected in Round 1.If he plays bad, or even worse, screws up off the field, then you're all geniuses and I will admit it.

I keep reading debate between those who agree with Pet's handling of Johnny, and those who don't. One thing I don't see from those who disagree is a recognition of the alcoholism/rehab/recovery dynamic. I know there will be some who ask "who said anything about alcoholism?" While no one may have said publicly, that is what rehab is for, addressing one's inability to control their drinking, alcoholism. If one is indeed alcoholic, then they CANNOT drink...period. There is no "learning to control" without abstinence. One does not go to rehab to learn how to drink, but not to excess. One goes to learn how to live without drinking. I don't know what was said/agreed/signed upon his release from the rehab center, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Johnny agreed to adhere to a code of conduct that involved staying away from alcohol. He broke that agreement. There had to be consequences. I can't remember where, but somewhere along the line I read that he entered rehab at the urging of his family, not the team. It was voluntary. While Pet should act like a coach, not a father, this is kind of a special circumstance. As has been pointed out, nobody before Pet has really held Johnny accountable. Benching Johnny might not have been the best for winning in the short term, but if it forces Johnny to accept his responsibilities regarding his problems and to his team, then in the long run, it was the right move.

im done. i hope he plays well so we can trade him.... one to many time for me to want anything to do with the cocaine cowboy ..

agree.

This thread got weird.

You are making an HUGE assumption it was for alcoholism. People go to rehab for all kinds of addictive issues, not just alcohol. Maybe he was addicted to porn

From what I have seen, and by all accounts told by the coaching staff up until "liegate", Johnny was doing everything asked of him. In other words, rehab seemed to have helped quite a bit.

I will never, ever agree with how the situation was handle by Pet. Watching the game live in the stadium on Sunday was fantastic. The sideline was electric, the players were engaged and excited - something I had not seen all year. Daddy screwed up by not playing him sooner - if he plays great these last 3 games and shows improvement in each one I think he is done as it is obvious he cannot put football ahead of being a pseudo parent. That whole situation rubbed me the wrong way and I will have a hard time getting over how that dunce handled it.

I've been on my soapbox since it happened about this. Daddy needs to worry about his crappy football team instead of what an adult is doing on his vacation week.

so if it doesn't happen you will be on here saying how wrong you were? Or will it be more of the same old excuses?

If what doesn't happen? I don't make excuses, and have zero problem admitting when I am wrong.

Your comment though did make me think of one of my favorite movies

If JM earns himself more rope as we finish the season, he could do worse than having Pettine as his coach next year. It seems that the very thing that earned MPthe ire of many fans (coaching like he's in HS, acting like JM's guidance counselor, etc) may have been what finally snapped JM into focus.

We fans want wins... and if we think the coach is unfairly keeping 'our winner' off the field, there will be anger and frustration. BUT: we don't know the personalities involved. And from what I understand, coaching is much more than doing a 'plug & play' Madden- or Fantasy-style. There are real human beings inside those uniforms, and only the coaches know how best to handle them. Only the coaches see them every day. Only the coaches know whether they are ready to help the team.

From what I understand, JM might have received the very first discipline of his life that actually worked. If that's the case, maybe Pettine is exactly THE right coach to bring him along. After all, who better than a "seasoned HS coach" to raise and train an arrested adolescent?

.02

I dunno, cfrs... I'm kinda seeing it the same way as superbowl- and I was never a Manziel fanboy. Didn't watch him in college, didn't read/hear about him until his name started popping up in the Browns' draft threads. I've been able (more or less) to just view him as a young QB, without the strong opinions he seems to elicit from many.

The off-field stuff he's done as a pro have been worrisome, but not enough for me to start up a personal hate campaign. The maturity issue is a continuing legitimate concern, but I also remind myself that he'd just now be finishing his senior year at A&M. Then I remember who I was at 22-23.

Going only by what I see on the field, I feel there is more to feel optimistic about than causes for concern. It seems that the coaching he's been given is taking hold, and actually making him better than if he was left to his own (de)vices. It signals a willingness to change his game for the better... a game that is still being assembled.

I'll put it this way: if he continues to show growth throughout the rest of the season, it would be enough for me to feel confident in his potential for next year- while still acknowledging the small sample size. Think of it this way: if JM had been the named starter of Game One, 2015 and showed the same trajectory he's shown in the games he HAS played...

...would you bench him, or let him play out the season?

That's where I'll be regarding Manziel after CLE plays PIT. And not a moment before. To me, that's fair and reasonable.


.02

No, I'm really not. It is an assumption to be sure, but it really is the assumption that makes the most sense. Yes, it could be other drugs beside alcohol, but it really is all the same thing. I know from experience that living sober requires not drinking, smoking, snorting or dropping anything that will alter my consciousness. That's how sobriety works, and that's what rehab teaches.

I can't disagree with that at all, nor do I have any experience with rehab. We'll never know what he was in there for, though I will agree (and saying HUGE assumption was a little out of line, sorry) that alcohol or drugs was the most likely reason.

That said, he does seem to be handling himself much better than last year, but I do also understand the concerns of those that he could fall off of a cliff at anytime. It is a tricky situation for sure.

My take is if he plays well the last 3 games go all in with JFF and draft accordingly.

2 point plan.

1. Bring everybody back. Even, McCown and Manziel, Austin DAvis, and Connor Shaw.
Even Farmer, Pettine and Scheiner.

( Wish they hadn't given up on Leon McFadden at this point.)

2. Draft Derrick Henry , runningback out of Alabama.

Force Farmer to do it, Haslem can force whatever he wants, Haslem is the owner.

If there was a 3rd point, it would be to leave the defense alone, only draft offensive playmakers who have a chance to score touchdowns sometime in their career.

Haden, Thomas, Bitonio, Schwartz, Mingo, Mack, Gilbert, Sheldon, Erving, Phil Taylor, Skrine, Kruger, Dansby, Bryant, other Bryant, Orchard, and Cooper.

Career touchdowns from that group? It's no wonder they only reach the 6 win mark one time in how many 6 or 7 years now.

You got to score touchdowns.


point 1. Bring everybody back. Everybody!

2. Draft that Rb from Alabama, Derick Henry, ( And I think he plays high and isn't eager to pass block, I don't care, sometimes it's better not to win the draft, win the future. )

I'd be most disappointed, if they took Joey Bosa, because, well they already have pass rushers who only get there once in a while.

This is an apples and oranges comparison. During a season there is not an opportunity to upgrade the position.

The problem is it's not clear if any of the guys coming out are upgrades.

I think it is clear.

It wasn't very long ago, before the last draft, that people were arguing that there really weren't any good QB candidates. Mariota came from a spread offense and Winston had character issues. I wasn't on this board yet, 2 years ago on the other board I was on, the same was said about Bortles, Carr, Manziel, and Bridgewater. It's impossible to accurately project how good college QB's will perform in the NFL, the two are so different. The top 3 in this class, Goff, Lynch (if they declare) and Cook all have question marks. It's always a gamble.

If Johnny performs well over the last 3 games, in my mind he's the starter moving forward. We can draft for other needs at the top of the draft, then take a shot on Cardale in the 3rd. He's a project, but if we're moving forward with Johnny, having a project on the back burner isn't a bad plan. And if Cardale develops into something, so much the better.

Clearly what named player coming out is better?

Or are you saying that it's clear no one is better?

It's an intellectual exercise regarding his progress as a player.

Play along, and see if your opinion might change.

QFT. Thanks for the perspective.

Not all intellectual exercises are worthwhile.

I wanted Manziel to start from the beginning of the season so we didn't have to come up with ways to justify keeping him.

so be it.

J/C

"May you live in interesting times"

Johnny playing from here gives us a much bigger body of work to evaluate. Yeah he's picked up games and series' here and there but 4 successive games to close out is gonna be huge. Not just for him, but for Farmer, and also for Pet and staff. Strap in folks, the next month, as usual is gonna give us Browns fans more interesting times. (That's a curse btw, fits right?)

Who are the 2 best QB's in the draft in your opinion?

Link?

A LOT of discussion about the college QB prospects. Are there 1 or 2 guys in the industry that you really listen to when it comes to evaluating these kids coming out?

And yes, I do agree that no one really knows until these kids actually start playing in the NFL.

I'm still bringing in another QB IF Manziel stays. The off the field stuff is a HUGE concern for me at this point.

deleted

Did you accidentally post nude pics again?

Johnny is the most accurate passer to all levels of the field we have had since the return and it isnt even close. He is by far the most mobile QB we have had ever. He also has one of the strongest arms. I just think those qualities deserve a chance to develop. He is a smart kid, just lacks a lot of commons sense at this stage of life.

The kid is a winner and if we let it ride, we will be rewarded. I took a hell of a lot of flack for my belief in this kid and I would have cut bait if I did not believe he was a true franchise QB. We have to continue to build around him and have a TEAM that can be a consistent playoff contender.

It does in NE

I never blamed Hoyer for failing to mentor Manziel. He did exactly what the coach wanted. remember, Pet encouraged their rivalry. He got what he wanted.

Fair enough. Just asking:

Are you still taking a QB in round 1?

Is it a lack of common sense or shrewd marketing of his own brand?

IF it is his own brand, are you OK with HIS brand being larger than the Browns brand regarding all the media coverage?

We are a 3 win team. He won 2 of those games and he is the only reason there is the least bit of interest in this season.

I would not take a QB in this draft. I really dont see special with any of these guys. I think Lynch has potential to be really good but I am not willing to bet a top 10 pick on him on any other QB.

Browns fans may not want to hear it but the strength of this draft is on the defensive side of the ball. There will probably be 20-23 defensive players taken in the first round.

Personally, I love the receiver Treadwell. Kid remidns me a lot of Michael Irvin.

Unless you plan on firing everyone, AND shipping Manziel off to Dallas for a mid round pick..

Taking a QB is only going to create more problems.

If there are two young QBs on the roster, whichever one isnt playing will be the one that "could have" played better..

Even if you fire everyone, but keep Johnny, bringing in another prospect only hurts both of them.

Make a decision, and stick to it.

Cleveland Browns: Talk to players and one stands out as the best athlete on the Browns. He was drafted by the San Diego Padres to play baseball, he plays scratch golf and he can dunk a basketball. QB Connor Shaw called him the "quickest dude I've ever seen." The player? QB Johnny Manziel, who also happens to have a nasty competitive side. "We go bowling during training camp and his elbow is hurting, and he's bowling left-handed and rolling strikes," offensive coordinator John DeFilippo said. "He is that type of kid who is going to pick up a ping pong paddle and has not played in 10 years and just crush you." -- Pat McManamon

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/32for32x151216/the-best-athlete-nfl-team

QFT

When Manziel was a true freshman at Texas A&M, he played corner on the scout team. Supposedly he was the best corner on the team.

I get what you are saying but... if Manziel actually does turn into a good starting QB for the long term, it will be impossible to know how much his 2 game sit-down had to do with it. Some will argue that was the reason he turned it around, some will say he was going to turn it around any way... nobody will ever really know. Maybe when they are putting Manziel in the HoF, he will credit that decision with the defining moment in his career. Just hope if that happens, he's wearing a Browns jersey.

Slightly ironic when you think about how many times someone has suggested that we'd have won if a different QB had played and everyones reaction is "Why, do they play defense?"

So keep Johnny, McCown and Davis. Name Johnny the starter and that's it.

Give Johnny some weapons. Figure out the defense.

I'm OK with this but Farmer better not figure into the draft. He really doesn't have a clue...does he?

Can you keep Pettine IF O'Neil is let go or does Pettine have to go too?

And some will point out that he was coming off a 370+ yard performance against the Steelers where he looked fully prepared before it happened and that the benching was mostly a self-serving power gesture because what he did on his bye week "looked bad..." not because he actually lacked in preparation for his role.

That's the thing here DC, we don't know.

We don't know how bad things were behind the scene last year or the trajectory that led JFF to rehab. We don't know what commitments JFF made to the team moving forward from there. We don't know exactly what substance or substances in question as to why he went to rehab.

In that regard I agree with what Columbus has said all along.

Where I have my problem with it, is that Columbus has no idea on those circumstances either. I believe it's very hard to form a solid conclusion on whether this issue was handled right or wrong without such information.

And I believe if Columbus can use the logic of "You don't know" against those who feel Pettine may have been right, the exact same argument can be made towards those who feel Pettine was wrong.

We just don't know......

NOT one person in Berea said it was because of his lack of ability. In fact, he was handed the job because of what he did against Pittsburgh.

he got benched because he lied.., Why can't people accept that and stop with all the bull.

Lying contributed, but if you think that is the only factor, then you are burying your head in the sand.

That's not what we were talking about. What we were talking about was whether or not the benching had anything to do with Manziel's improvement.

He was benched because he wasnt McCown.

He was benched because he is a punk.

What some people feel and maybe justifiably so, is that lying was the stated reason.. wearing ugly red pants might have been a reason... wearing the wrong headphones might have been a reason, parking in the wrong spot at the facility might have been a reason... in short, Pettine was LOOKING for a reason, and he found one.

Did he walk on your lawn to retrieve a ball or something?

no. he screwed my team....

Yeah screwed em good by getting 2 out of the 3 wins so far this year.

Mary Kay Cabot ‏@MaryKayCabot 3m3 minutes ago
#Browns Johnny Manziel said he talks to Josh Gordon every week, took him to a recent game at A&M. Looking forward to Gordon coming off ban

thats just perfect... They should hang together... two punks...

Yeah, them two hanging has trouble written all freaking over it.

I'm all good for trading Gordon the minute he's reinstated. Said that mo's ago.

As far as JM he's never been arrested or been suspended for substance abuse. Not the same thang

yea it is. the cocaine cowboy threw away 18 games from being a punk. only difference is that it wasn't the nfl that did it...

lol, this isnt going anywhere

Nope

It blows my mind that based upon what Manziel has done from the day he arrived to the end of the 49ers game that people are ready to turn the team over to him. Reading here that there is no need to draft another first round quarterback.

Even when this season ends no matter what happens in the last three games good, bad, or ugly there is not enough evidence to get rid of Manziel or call him the answer at the position.

The Browns without question should draft a quarterback with their first pick.

You do not plan the future of the team on McCown and Manziel. McCown is the perfect backup. Veteran guy, knowledgeable, hard worker, good teammate. Manziel may or may not prove to be a legit starter. His whole NFL career is still a question mark.

The Browns have to plan for the worst case scenario. They are in a position to take the best quarterback prospect in this draft.

All of those people who think they know how Goff, Lynch, or Cook will turn out - don't know.

The Browns should look at the quarterbacks in this draft like they have none on the roster. Due diligence to the tenth degree is required.

If after doing that they come to the conclusion that none of them carry a first round grade then it becomes a different issue.

I have to say, I completely agree.

I agree Mour. When Johnny finally gets it and takes off, he will elevate the play of the entire team. Heck, we might already be seeing that. I for one hope he is the Captain of this ship for a good long while.

It blows my mind to think you have been reading that. No doubt the next three games mean something, but my big hope is we don't draft another QB in this next draft.

It also blows my mind to read that we MUST draft a QB in round 1. Why not wait and see what happens?


I think you buy a little to much in to Daddy Pettine who is more worried about what his QB does in his off time than how he coaches his team.

I get what you are saying, but disagree that we need to take a QB in the first round. Yes, some of the questions about Manziel are still unanswered, but his development is encouraging. This team has many needs, and there are project QB's such as Wentz, Jones, and Brissett available in the 3-5 rounds who we can develop behind Manziel, while we use the first 2 rounds to address more pressing needs.

It's an accepted psychological truth that the things we dislike in others are those things we hate about ourselves.

Just sayin'

I think you buy a little to much in to the cocaine cowboy.

It's comments like this that make me wonder if you are a fan.

Plus, that is stupid. He should be benched because he isn't good. If he was Gay, would you want him benched because of that? Maybe because his hair is a little too red? Because he is a little short for you liking?

Insecure people find the most ridiculous reasons to dis someone.

j/c:

Does anyone else find some of these posts mind-boggling?

The funny thing is that probably 1/2 of the posters find the anti-Johnny posts absurd and the other 1/2 find the positive-Johnny posts absurd.

All I know is this: I HOPE Johnny shows enough so we do not have to draft another qb this year. I am not wild about any of those guys and this roster is in serious need of talent at a multitude of positions.

I'm excited about Johnny.This weekend will change a lot of minds and hearts, one way or the other. If he goes to Seattle and plays well, even the haters can't ignore it. If he stinks, well, I'll probably be the first one on the Paxton Lynch bandwagon. What can I say, I'm just a fan.

I would have liked Manziel to be our QB of the future and I hope somehow he still is, I just don't think we will have enough game time to determine if he is the guy or not.

I also think that whoever is the new GM and/or coach won't want to tie themselves to Manziel.

If we are going to roll with Manziel I think we have to keep Pettine and DeFilippo. Three offensive systems in three years would hurt Manziel more than anything else.

Manziel played really well last week against the Southwest Bay Area Technical College Gold Miners. Gotta give him that.

With that said just draft Paxton Lynch and be done with this reality television drama/saga garbage already.

Fixed that for ya.

no. what i find mind boggling is a poster who says "the only reason I am defending him is people are giving him a hard time" and expect to be thought of as any thing than a agenda poster....

Good life lesson to be learned there. Kids in my neighborhood know darn well not to walk on my lawn. They might walk on it, but if they do they won't be walking off it. Just sayin.

I'm OK with Johnny for another year and using our first pick at a skill position. No trench guys, I want a glamour skill position pick.

Good point Peen. Johnny always did strike me as being a little TOO happy. Must be all the drugs and alcohol.

Gee, aren't you in a sweet mood.

not really. but i guess you could tell... the more i think of the guy throwing a year away the more it pisses me off. and then to get the starting job and only had to do what not only pettin... but haslem and farmer say and the punk gives them the finger...

i hope he plays great the next 3 games. so we can trade his punk a$$......

Yeah if he continues to play well we should trade him. wow.

Reading your posts is like taking your dog to the vet to be put down every week.

yea... not laughing. just pissed. he is a punk that will never do enouggh to make himself great... just enough to get by on. he ssaid it all when he said "im not changing for anyone"

I hope so, I really do. Trouble for the teams they face, Johnny and Josh could possibly be a great tandem.

CFRS, I can see what you mean about the next GM not wanting to be saddled with Johnny, but on the other hand, if the QB is somehow solved, you have a very high pick to use on a potential stud, and one that won't be quite so boom or bust. Taking a QB and cutting Johnny is risky, because he could go somewhere else and shine, while your guy doesn't pan out. That's not good.

We all know what we have to do: Root for Johnny to play great and not get in trouble!

If the QB is solved, then we probably shouldn't fire the GM who solved the QB.

Really I think a new coach wouldn't want to have to deal with Manziel. Why would a coach want to walk into a situation where he has an unproven QB, who causes problems off the field, and tie, what probably is his only shot at being a head coach, to that player?

j/c

Johnny really has passed the eye test this season - he's looked like he might belong in the NFL. He's progressed - and in the last game against the 49ers he was staying in the pocket longer than any previous game, and running through progressions more then previous games. Progress. What a concept for a fledgling QB. Even when he took off - he still had his eyes downfield.

Looking back - one of the most impressive elements to his game - and maybe this might be his biggest talent - accuracy throwing the ball on the run (except when throwing the 'other' way!! ) .... Maybe I have just not watched enough other scrambling QB's throw the ball on the run. But Johnny looks darn good doing it compared to the samples size I have seen.

Barring the bad decision which resulted in the Int - actually INCLUDING the interception - Johnny had a very good game vs the 49ers. Hope springs eternal !!

Now - what's the problem that people have? Why are some people still so down on Johnny?? Why can't everyone accept these basic truths? I know most of what I have written here are opinions (mine) but they seem pretty well grounded in facts and watching the kid play.

Now - I'm not saying anoint him. I'm not forgetting about his lack of effort and professionalism last year -absolutely far from it. I'm not forgetting how his silver tongue jumped in front of the media last year and said all the right things - but then DID all the wrong things. I'm not forgetting about the spat with his girlfriend in the car. He doesn't get a pass for partying the weekend after being given the starting role and then lying about it when caught. And I am not pretending that the 49ers are anything but (probably) the worst team in the NFL.

All of that is rightly still part of any decision on what the Browns do. As will be the remaining 3 games against decidedly better teams - possibly 3 of the hottest teams in the NFL right now .... But if Johnny does well. Shows progress in the face of (probably) adversity. Continues passing the eye test ..... then absolutely I keep him. Ab-so-bloody-lute-ly !!! To trade him when his value *might* be a 4th or 5th round pick at best - makes zero sense. To draft a "top" QB in a year when there appears to be no elite QB heading the draft class makes no sense when the team needs so much talent everywhere. . . that's drafting for need - and reaching - something the Brown's FO have excelled at over the years and what got us into this mess in the first place!

Nope - for me - if the scenario plays out where JM looks good in the next 3 games (regardless of whether the team wins - its about how he plays with pressure in his face, no running game and WR's that can't get open). . . . if that happens I am "all in" for a year with JM. I keep josh as a mentor and a more than capable back up - as is Austin ... but run with JM. Sure - that's a risk because of multiple factors. But its a risk I'd take.

Agreed. Get him some weapons (which likely means Farmer MUST go) and put the D back together.

I can also agree with this. The drama surrounding Berea is old.

Good lord dude, did Johnny steal your wife or something? Why on earth would you want to trade away what may be the future of our franchise? Let's see how he plays these next 3 games and make a logical decision from that point.

I swear half of our fan base wants us to continually lose.

There is no way to make a logical decision on Manziel because of the lack of game time. What a waste. Good thing we started McCown to begin the year.

[quote=columbusdawg

I swear half of our fan base wants us to continually lose. [/quote]

I'm not in that half. Just to be clear.

Does it sound like im happy with him?

LMAO

I'll agree with you on that. Regardless of how Johnny plays these last 3 games I would not fault the FO if they draft a QB.

This is the kind of post I come here to read.

Thoughtporn.

Sometimes, I almost don't care what the subject matter is, or even the opinion being expressed. Just seeing a fully fleshed-out post that displays critical thought and nuance is more than enough to keep me coming back.
This thread gained IQ points because of this post, regardless of P.O.V..


You, sir- do not post often enough on these boards.

The worst case scenario could be going into next season with TWO unknown quantities at QB... and still without a dominant WR or pass rusher or beast MLB...

There is one, and only one, reason to draft a QB in the first round and that's if you have completely given up on Manziel...

Creepy. Very creepy.

You aren't Hebert from Family Guy are you?

I think people are down on JM as you put it because they don't quite trust that he's made enough progress yet. The concern isn't about his talent and ability so much. I don't really see anyone doubting that.

It's the other half of being a franchise QB that is in question. The JM "supporters" defined as those who think Pet is purposefully holding back would have us believe that 10 weeks in rehab is the only reason JM has shown improvement this season. They'll give coaching credit to O'Connell and Flip without actually being able to specifically say what it is they are doing for him (I think its reasonable to assume its the usual stuff QB coaches and OC's do...) but they also assume that those two guys don't have ANY concerns or issues with JM's lack of progress in the off field areas.

From the get go Pettine has been upfront about what he expects from his #1 QB. He's also had no problems giving JM credit for his on field improvements all season. And people are assuming that just because we hear reports he's improved on the field, and we've heard very few reports of off field stuff that he's made just as big strides in his maturity. But that isn't necessarily the case.

Remember, when it comes to specific behavior issues, the team has been pretty tight lipped about them. Last season we as fans had ZERO idea that JM was not prepared nor just how much he blew everything off until he took the field in Cincy. But I guarantee the team knew. Pet certainly knew which is why he didn't start him sooner.

Look how long it took before we got any details about what Gilbert's malfunction is?

I also think some of it is simply push back against the people putting forth the claim that Pet is just being petty and small. Pet has given JM credit when he's earned it. And when he's been critical like his halftime comment about staying in the pocket because he was missing reads... he WAS right. I mean, there's no way to refute that. Manziel's successful game against the 49ers clearly shows that!

Ryan Leaf was talented right? But he was left to his own devices and was a huge douchebag which ultimately led to his short NFL career. I'm in the same boat as Clem, I don't follow college and I knew basically nothing about Manziel before we drafted him. But if this kid is as good as people hope, I'd hate to see our best shot at a franchise guy self destruct.

Benching Manziel for being dishonest for 2 games does not set this franchise back anywhere near as much as being hands off with him 2 seasons in a row.

QFT. And for common sense.

We are going to find ourselves in a sweet draft position. But just because of that does not mean we HAVE to use that 1st round pick on a QB. Even if we find ourselves needing a QB, we don't take one just to take one. If there is no QB in this draft that you think is a franchise guy, then you do not use a top 3 pick on one, just to go through the motions of taking a QB. Settling/reaching for the wrong guy at that spot puts you back a few years, until he busts and you repeat the process.

If you think he is a franchise guy, pull the trigger. If not, get a stud at another position of need. We have about 15 of those.

No, they want to win... they just want to win their way, with a team full of Mensa members and choir boys. Four yards and a cloud of dust, no celebrating, playing through injury, and never smiling until they win the super bowl (then celebrate for 24 hours then get back to work).

certainly increase the odds of winning wouldn't it... especially the work thing...

physically and football wise he was ready to take over. The lying thing ehhh trust but what bothered me the most and maybe the coaches was that he ditched coming home on Saturday evening and heading to berea Sunday and get in a jump start on the film watching and mental preparation. The itinerary was made known by Maziel in his presser before the break. So in his most important up to this moment part of his career - his first official start of his ERA and he ditches his preparation schedule.

If the benching nipped this - Well I'm the starter now I don't have to EARN IT ANYMORE attitude. The it was a career changer. This again wasn't about EGO w/Pettine this was about making Manziel the Savior of this Franchise and its fans.

jmho

He was benched because he lied to his Coaches. He had not been starting this year because his Head Coach, His Offensive Coordinator, and his QB Coach were all on the same page and thought he still had more to learn before he was thrown to the wolves.

I guarantee we'll draft a QB in the draft. Hopefully not till 4th or 5th round.

Yup. They'd still be starting McCown if he could've stayed healthy. No doubt about it.

Wait...so we were going to let a young QB develop behind a vet???? Thats just crazy!

yea. and thats part of being a punk in my book.

This post Vers is spot on. Looking at our QB stats the QB position is not the problem on this team.

Manziel, McCown, and Davis has combined for 3,619 yards with 19 TD's to 8 INT's. They are averaging 256 yards per game. 91% QB rating as a team. Only concerning stats are they have been sacked 43 times and are only averaging 7.3 yards per completion. That speaks more to a lack of play makers than lack of QB play.

Does anyone actually believe a rookie QB will be that productive? With these receivers?

This team needs play makers that can scare a defense too back off the LOS and open space for a run game. It also needs a defense that can sack the QB and create turnovers.

Stick with Manziel as our starter with McCown as the back up. Draft weapons on offense and OLB's that can pressure the QB.

Our QB has not been the problem this season, but if we don't address the position it will be in the future.

True Dat .... Same is true for every single position on the roster. No? For example LT will be a problem eventually - Joe Thomas will retire and it will be a problem to replace him.

But to me it makes a more sense to look at where the glaring needs are right now - and fill those positions with talent, before drafting another franchise LT. Or QB.

You mean like WR & LB?

I'd agree with you if QB wasn't much more important than all the other positions.

I think he's talking about backup center.

I don't totally disagree with that but I think we need to re-examine our preseason expectations. Before the season it was generally accepted that our defense should be fairly stout, our running game should be ok, and our passing game was going to struggle a lot because of the McCown/Manziel combination and lack of a big time playmaker at WR...

Well since then our passing game has exceeded expectations while our running game and defense have been, for the most part, well below expectations... so just because our passing game hasn't sucked like we thought it would and it has been overshadowed by deficiencies in rushing and defense, does not necessarily mean our passing game is "good"..

We have put up a fair amount of yards, but we are still 21st in total offense and 29th in scoring... some of that has to be on the QB doesn't it?

I don't know, I think the whole "minimizing the QB position" has been working out well, don't you?

Man, I don't know what happened that this team ended up being a mirror image of everything it was supposed to be coming in to the season. Bizzaro world I guess.

It's a Rorschach test. If Johnny finishes strong, people are going to say:
1) It proves he should've been playing all along.
2) It means nothing because it is a small sample.
3. Pettine should be fired for holding him back.
4) Pettine's tough love is the reason he finally "gets it."

LOL...........that's both funny and true.

Again, I hope Manziel plays well and we don't draft a qb w/our very high pick in the first round.

This team is in desperate need of impact players. We need a larger WR who can put up big numbers each week, take it to the house on any single play, and be a reliable threat in the red zone. There is a reason our red zone offense is so bad. It's because we don't usually run the ball down there and our smurf receivers aren't good at getting position or running the ally-oop type of plays in the back corner. I would guess that both Barnidge and Hartline get more targets in the red zone than the other guys because of those reasons.

We also need a dominant pass rusher who demands attention in every opponent's game plan and can still make big plays despite drawing so much attention.

If we get a big time pass rusher and a big time WR, it would amaze people how much better some of these other guys would look.

I agree. Im so tired of taking QB's in the first round.

I agree. Im so tired of taking QB's in the first round.

Late 1st round...for QB a big difference in skill set (most times) with top 5 pick.
jmho

Of course those are the things people are going to say, based on their preconceived notions going in...

But the only ones that will be right will be the ones that agree with me.

Aren't some of those things true? I don't get what's wrong with saying what's true.

How many versions of the truth can there be?

1 and 2 are contradictions of each other as are 3 and 4.

If Manziel plays well, I'm starting to lean on hoping Haslam lets everyone return, they commit to Manziel, and draft BPA.

If that happens, 1-4 will be irrelevant anyway. It won't matter how we got here. It will be about how do we move forward.

The next two games will tell us the most about how much Manziel has improved. I hope he lights it up and shows he is worthy of all the headaches. Either that or fails so bad the Browns have no choice but to upgrade at QB if it's even possible with this crop coming out this year.

I'm happy to see you're starting to come over to my side of things.

Welcome.

From The Big G:

1) It proves he should've been playing all along.
2) It means nothing because it is a small sample.
3. Pettine should be fired for holding him back.
4) Pettine's tough love is the reason he finally "gets it."



I don't think they contradict each other at all. It can be true that both Manziel should have been playing all along and it can be true that his play late in the season is too small of a sample to move forward with him. In fact, I would argue that Manziel should have played earlier so that we would have a bigger sample.

Also, I don't know if Pettine can be fired for holding Manziel back (he can be fired for many other things though), but he definitely should have started him sooner so that the team could have a better idea of what he is. Furthermore, I don't know if it is true or not, but one could argue (if Manziel is successful) that getting "put in his place" helped him out a lot.



I don't think Manziel can do enough on the field this season to convince me that he should stick around (especially when I think there is a very good QB available for us to pick), but I understand a person who thinks that.

I agree with you that if Manziel is the guy we should let everyone return. First, Manziel changing offensive systems for the third time in three years would be very hard. Second, we shouldn't hire a coach and/or a GM and tell him, "You must have Manziel on the team."

lol what good QB do you see being available? I just see a bunch of avg joes. Lynch would be interesting but I hear he is staying in college so who knows.

Goff is very good. I don't think he is as good as Winston or Mariota, but I would take him over every QB from the Bortles/Manziel/Bridgewater/Carr draft.

So you believe Johnny is a franchise QB? You think he is a first guy in last guy out type player? We should bet the future on Johnny?

Man, that's not the guy I see. I see a guy that will do just enough to get by. Not one iota more. I see a guy that thinks his natural ability will save him in any situation. People compare him to Drew Brees and Russell Wilson. I think he's more like Vince Young. A natural athlete with a two cent head. He may win some games, but unless he has a SERIOUS attitude adjustment he will never take a team to a SB. Johnny also reminds me of another Browns player. Meathead. Entitled A-holes.

If there is a QB at the top of the draft that IS a first man in last out type and he can spin it? I say take him. Nothing wrong with having another QB. Not like one stud WR was going to make this a good team anyway. Now, if there was an ELITE pass rusher there that would give us 15+ sacks every year? THEN I'd be open to looking for a QB in the second round.

Peace

Oh and Merry Christmas Vers. Hope you and your family have a wonderful holiday season man.

I thought I said this:



I said................."I hope........"

Oh, and Merry Christmas to you, Spirit. I hope you are feeling better.

I agree w/you. I am not impressed w/the qbs in this draft. Lynch has a huge upside, but he is risky. Goff and Cook look like journeymen qbs to me. They don't compare to the class that JM came out with.

Lynch looks like Manziel with less talent, the rest are meh..don't pop out like the Manziel, Bridgewater, Carr draft class. Big gamble on any of them, if Manziel looks good the rest of the season I say stay with him. JMHO

Lynch looks nothing like Manziel. If you ask me, Lynch reminds me of Cam Newton when Cam was coming out. Will Lynch work to develop like Cam did? Who knows. Is Lynch as Charismatic - doubt because few people are.

And this is why Pettine has had to handle Manziel the way that he has. I believe that Pettine sees potential for greatness in Manziel but knows that potential will be lost if Manziel doesn't learn to take his job seriously and put in the work that needs to be done.

There are no Franchise QBs in this draft class, period.

I doubt that is true - what is more accurate is that there is no sure fire "Andrew Luck" or "Peyton Manning" type franchise QB.... I'd be surprised if there isn't a Tom Brady like players somewhere that gets taken in the mid rounds and out performs all expectations. The chances of landing 'that guy' is slim to none. Even less if we still have Farmer in the FO

There are plenty of "franchise" QBs that are not the best QB in the league. If we drafted a QB and he turned out to be as good as Flacco, Matt Ryan (pre-2015), or Eli we'd all be very happy.

And the jury is still out as to if Manziel can be that guy. My position has evolved, and will probably continue to do so. Right now I'm thinking don't go after a 1st round QB, let Johnny continue to prove out. If we draft a QB, let's look at Jones who has the tools but needs time to learn (if he can) to be an NFL QB. Letting him learn while Johnny proves out might be the best path forward. The problem would be with all those who expect and insist on instant results.

P.S. I wouldn't take Jones before the 4th. If someone else wants to invest a higher pick on such an obvious project, more power to them.

Draft a QB with the first pick, make sure Manziel is not on the team if that happens. That's where I'm at right now.

Should we draft a QB in the 1st round, then JM has to go. I don't see any way the two could co-exist. Keep McCown as the mentor (again)...

Some are all giddy with the thought of having a shiny new toy at QB, tough for them
that JF is going to be our No. 1 next season.

I think you are going to be sorely disappointed.

Okey dokey, we shall see.

Indeed we shall.

Absolutely.

Draft the kid from NDSU in the 3rd or 4th round if he is there. Develop him for a couple seasons and then make him your QB if Manziel has not taken the Browns to the promised land. Drafting a QB in the first round without getting a real good look at what you have is just rinse and repeat of the same old, same old. Anyone who wants continuity in the organization cannot rationalize drafting a QB in the first round and still have claim to credibility.

The love affair w/the qbs in this draft boggles my mind.

Only the Browns would be stupid enough to let JM go and draft a dud like Goff, Cook, or another project in Lynch.

Only the Browns would be stupid enough to rely on a QB who is an immature, alcoholic who has made repeated dumb decisions since college and not draft a potential franchise QB like Goff or Lynch.

Yes draft another spread QB. That is a good idea. When neither is as good as Johnny was when he was in college. Fire the coaches bring in new coaches and when these new QB's struggle because it is a much longer learning curve to play NFL QB coming from a spread offense then in 2 years we will do it all again. Been there done that.

Johnny has improved and is showing signs of turning the corner. This team needs weapons on the outside and a pass rush. Draft Bosa in the 1st.

And we need to simply consider how some people don't like JM, even though he is playing well. It's like they would rather "win" some message board arguement then see the team progress and get better. It's past the point where people can question if he has the talent to get it done.

The conversation taking place is normal given the college season is almost over and those QBs who might be under consideration are playing their last games.

Manziel has done enough wrong in his short stay with the Browns for some to be convinced that he won't make it in the NFL..so I'm not going to disparage anyone for discussing the future possibilities for the Browns at QB.

I'm simply going to sit back and watch the next 3 games play out to see where the Browns stand at QB, then once the season is over I will have a better idea of the options that might be under consideration.

...but I'm not going sit in judgement of those board members who feel like discussing the possibilities when they feel like it. No one is forcing anyone to join in, right?..so what's the harm?

One interesting thing to remember about college quarterbacks in the draft is how much they can move up and down the boards even after the season ends. IIRCC, Teddy spent his whole final year as the consensus top QB available. Then others' stock started to rise. And when he wore gloves and seemed smallish at his pro-day, he really dropped. I also remember one mov=ck having us taking Mettenberger withNo. 19, and then he nearly fell out of the draft. Right now everyone loves Lynch, but by draft time it could change.Maybe we can still get a prospect with our second or even third pick, and fill other holes while hedging with Johnny. Just a thought.
I would love to get Bosa (I know, I'm a homer) or a bona fide offensive weapon at WR with first pick.

Who would you take as a QB in the first round?

This is really the only sensible approach. There are 3 games left in the season that can significantly change our impression of JFF - in either direction. It is certainly reasonable to consider the approach to the offseason we will take in either eventuality but it is way too early to make a decision.

I agree that there are a lot of people who really despise Manziel and are rooting against him. However, I don't think he has proven that he is the guy, yet. The next three games will hopefully help in the evaluation process.

I do think we made a mistake not playing him more this year. That is why I started a thread BEFORE the season about what would our qb situation look like heading into next season if we played McCown instead of JM this year. Most thought that was a dumb question. I wonder if they still think it was dumb?

I haven't fully made up my mind on Manziel yet. He is just so young that it's very possible he could change his bad behaviors as he matures. I just don't know that he will have enough time on the Browns to mature before he is replaced.

I've not been a Manziel supporter but was pleasantly surprised to see him beating up that microsoft tablet with his forehead. While a ridiculous act on the surface it did show he's starting to care.

According to Pettine yup dumb question.

I love that picture. I had never seen that before.

1. I've been hearing from Browns fans who aren't sure what they want from the final three games. The Johnny Manziel fans want their favorite quarterback to play well. The fans who are weary of all the quarterback changes for the Browns wish someone would grab the position. They'll back Manziel now, even if they weren't thrilled with him earlier.

2. But there is another group of fans who want the highest draft pick possible. The ideal is the top pick. So that means the Browns must lose the last three games. Perhaps 3-13 will be bad enough for the top pick. It is possible that Manziel can be reasonably productive and the Browns still lose their last three games.

3. Another group of fans fall into the Mike Pettine camp, or at least they sound like the Browns coach when he talks about "trust issues" with Manziel. Even if Manziel plays well, these fans believe the Texas A&M product will do something to mess up a good situation. They want a new quarterback, and they want to start over.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf...ncart_big-photo

I believe Jm is making progress and with continued maturity he can be our qb of the future provided we give him some better O weapons and a better D. However, I also have a feeling that if the rumors about trading him to Dallas come to fruition he will become a very good qb just based on he will be going home so to speak and the Cowboys themselves. JMHO. I really want him to become a very good qb here and have us win.

I want JM to have 3 great games to finish the season and the Browns to win every one. However what I want and what will probably happen are 2 different things. I don't think we have much of a chance in any of the remaining games but it could only be positive for us if JM plays well. Whether we decide to keep him or not it bodes well for the Browns if he has 3 very good games.

I want Manziel to look great these final three games. As far as winning, Just knock the Steelers out of the playoffs in week 17. That is our Super Bowl now.

[video:myspace]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IEPWb0_PhVI[/video]

3. Another group of fans fall into the Mike Pettine camp, or at least they sound like the Browns coach when he talks about "trust issues" with Manziel. Even if Manziel plays well, these fans believe the Texas A&M product will do something to mess up a good situation. They want a new quarterback, and they want to start over.

-------------

im right there. i was serious about being done with the punk. can't have a QB that you can't trust. i hope he plays great so we can get something for him in the offseason.

I hope he plays great so we can put an end to the QB carousel.

I'll be happy if he just plays good, I would say great if he had a better group of receivers.

I really don't want to go through another first round pick wasted on a QB.

The QB play was not the problem this season, I can't believe I'm saying that...

If the Browns take a QB #1 overall it will be a wasted pick.

Really? Tom Brady was a 6th round pick...... One of these guys could very easily be the next great QB. Some guy taken late could blossom into a legendary player. Besides, there is no downside to taking a chance on a quarterback. They don't eat cap like they used to. Taking one every year until you find your franchise player isn't such a bad idea under the new rules......

That would be just fine with me, just not another first round bust.

I'm hoping Johnny will be a first round success story for this team..

What about all those spread QBs who don't have the learning curve you are talking about?

I have not seen any come in and be successful right away.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00/gamelog/2011/

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00/gamelog/2011/

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CarrDe02/gamelog/2014/

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariMa01/gamelog/2015/

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrifRo01/gamelog/2012/

That argument is not real atrong.

Cam Newton struggled for a few years before he started looking like an elite QB. I will agree with him being a success story now. But, in Cleveland would we have given him the time?

Andy Dalton has been holding the Bengals back for years until this season. He was actually booed this summer at a Cincinnati celebrity appearance. So, would Cleveland have waited 5 years for the light to go on for him?

Derek Carr has looked decent I agree but 2 years in and they are not a playoff team.

Marcus Mariotta. Didn;t Johnny Manziel beat him head to head this year? I think so. Also, the book is still out out Mariotta they are contending with Cleveland for the #1 overall pick.

RG3. Caught lightning in a bottle year one. Here is your example for what a spraed QB can do. Then the NFL figured him out. He does not have the ability to read defenses. Bust!!!

Lets face facts Johnny was a better college QB than any coming out this year. The proof of that was the hiesman trophy. Took Texas A&M to New Years day bowl games. Startung to turn the corner in the NFL. Fans like you want him gone. Draft another spread QB and you will want that QB gone again 2 years from now.

Wow. You are really in the tank.

I never said he has proven to be the guy at this point. I said that despite how well he might play, some won't care.

I'm confused by your argument. Are you saying young QBs should be elite and lead their team to the playoffs day 1 and if not, they're not worth drafting high? You're kinda all over the place.

What I am saying is that no rookie QB coming from the spread offense will be better then what Manziel is year one.

Better in terms of more wins or better stats?

I can agree with this statement. I think it's ludicrous to rinse and repeat every 2 years and never commit to actually building an offense around the skillset of your QB. What we see in Russell Wilson could actually be Johnny Manziel if we had a competent GM and coaching staff. The problem we have today is not the QB.

If you use a 1st round pick on a QB, then it's a bad idea. If you use a 5th or 6th, I'm all for it!

Get Nate Sudfeld in a later round.

No harm at all, mac.

Thanks for defending those of us who want to give JM a chance instead of proclaiming him a bust and either trading or cutting him.

An open mind is a great thing. Thanks again, mac.

I think that Manziel stands a chance of being really good. He also stands a chance of completely sabotaging his own career, if he is not careful.

I hope that he gets all of his off the field issues straightened out, because I do think that he has the talent to be great, if he will just devote himself to that pursuit,

Johnny needs one more year before I will judge him on the field. Unfortunately people will be judging him for the rest of his life off the field.

Johnny is ultra-competitive, has a football IQ that is off the charts, is extremely quick and has a very good arm.

On the other hand he is somewhat undersized and, the big one, is prone to off-the field behavior that could screw the team.

I am becoming less worried about the behavior stuff, because it did not seem to affect his preparation this year, and I think at his age, you can grow out of a lot of that stuff. A lot of folks drink like alcoholics in college and in the year or two afterward and leave it behind as they mature. If you're doing that at 30, then you need a program and it might not work.

Right now, judging Johnny as if this was a rookie year, I think he has a chance to be really, really good. We would be crazy to scrap him.

i'm leaning towards giving johnny another year before we give up on him too. I think he has the football ability but to me even before the draft my main worry was always his off the field stuff ruining him and whether or not he can see the field well enough at his height.

I think if he can keep his head straight he will be fine.

Hhh

I agree and would be fine with giving Manziel time, weapons and appropriate coaches who know how to best utilize his skills and abilities. This is a huge gamble to build a team around an individual who is so tentative in life. One wrong move and he could be out of the league. Bring in a comparable back up to him who can effectively work in the same type of system and I would feel better.

What a conundrum this situation is. You have your young first rounder Qb displaying clear strides on the field, yet you still have zero faith in his off field actions.

He's one weekend, heck, one evening really, of a media storm and possible suspension/punishment. He's showing decent pocket presence though! What a conundrum!!

Which is something he brought on himself. I'm all for redemption and forgiveness but Manziel needs to realize he needs to be cleaner and less "out there" than other players who do not have his reputation. I don't care if that's "not fair", it is what it is. He needs a good 2-3 year run where he is only in the media for football reasons and mostly positive, then things will calm down a little.

Johnny Manziel pleads for continuity in Cleveland

Posted by Darin Gantt on December 21, 2015, 10:04 AM EST
link

It’s far from a given that the Browns have cast their lot with Johnny Manziel for the long term.

But for what it’s worth, Manziel has cast his with coach Mike Pettine and the current cast of characters there.

Manziel said, in the wake of a loss to the Seahawks that dropped them to 3-11, that he hopes the Browns go for continuity this offseason instead of yet another overhaul, as he works under his second offensive coordinator in as many years.

“The [Seahawks] have been doing this for awhile at a really high level,” Manziel said, via Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. “I think this is the best that he’s [Russell Wilson’s] played probably throughout his career, so I don’t know if I can really picture that [kind of stability] moving forward. We’ll see what happens. I don’t think anybody really knows. I want these guys to be here next year.

“I want to have these receivers and the people that we have on this roster on the staff so we can go through the spring and not have to learn what this call is and this play and be able to go through a spring and have some of the continuity like. So it definitely would be a luxury for sure.”

While I’m sure that makes Pettine feel much better, no one knows who will survive the offseason in Cleveland. Last week, when Manziel was speculating about a future with suspended wideout Josh Gordon, Pettine replied: “That would turn out to be a positive thing if Josh is with us next year and Johnny’s on the roster, that those two have built a rapport together.”

That was more a hypothetical than an endorsement or an omen, as no one can know what the future holds there other than Jimmy Haslam, assuming he’s met with his homeless oracle and decided himself.

Of course, the differences between the Seahawks and the Browns go beyond time spent punching the clock together. And another year of Pettine and/or Manziel might not necessarily be moving them in the right direction.

But after changing course so often, it would at least be a direction.

Do you think that Johnny elevates the play of his teammates?

He has never had his head on straight for a long period of time.

I think he does

Best QB since the team has been back and if they build around him it may start to get a little exciting.

Why are you so judgmental toward Johnny ?

Why do you follow the Johnny threads and do nothing but insult and degrade Johnny ?

Why are you so negative about a player who may just help this team win ?

You have a very personal vendetta against Johnny, almost like you feel your on a high horse and you are the perfect human being in the world..

I can see why Vers and others have put you on the ignore list, It really is disturbing how you post such negative and insulting posts against Johnny..

Makes me think he turned you down on a date or something.

Maybe you would prefer we had Tebow, Yeah lets go Tebowing.. that will turn this team around...lmao!!!!

It's becoming obvious your becoming a post counter..

I don't even know what a post counter is, so it is hard to be that.

I have made it very clear that I liked Manziel and was happy we drafted him (I am sure that is available somewhere in the archives).

I also wanted him to start at the beginning of the season.

I think he is very physically gifted and have defended him recently in that area.

I would love it if he was our QB of the future, I just don't think he has played enough to make that determination and I believe their are better QBs in this draft with no off the field issues.

It sounds like you just don't want to hear the truth. Manziel has acted like a jackass since he was a freshman in college. He has never had his head on straight for a sustained period of time.

jc... a lot of posts actually good discussion dawgs.

I for one don't think we should cut ties with Manziel. I think barring getting arrested or something stupid I think he should be named or lead all to believe he is the starter in 2016. Sort of an oddball I think if there is somebody we feel very good about - I say go get him.

We haven't picked a QB earlier than 22 since 1999. Not exactly the place household names are taken. So if there is one we believe in not just take for the sake of taking. I'm all for it. I got my guy in mind but don't make the pick so if they...Farmer/Pettine/Flip/Oconner collectively want a certain QB go for it. Assuming they are the guys making the call still - if not same applies to the new guys.

Manziel could be the guy but we know his stability in life in general is fragile. We can always deal with having both but if Manziel fall back we are not too far behind.

WRs...won't go into detail - 32 over all 32 overall, QM early 2nd A Davis early 2nd. BE over all #3, Robo early 2nd Momass 2nd, Little 2nd, Gordon 2nd. I know we haven't paid any attention to WRs in the draft.

If a good one falls into our laps...sure take him.

I like Manziel - I like the way he is developing and listening to his coaches. Until he matures I don't wish him to get too comfortable - so far as soon as he does he steps back into not working to hard and choosing partying instead of football over and beyond.

Wasting a 2016 early pick as we will sit him. In the long run could help. I'd hate that we didn't take a Big Ben or Rodgers and 3 years later go DOH! we could have taken him.

I understand its a tough call. Don't know the studs in this draft yet. But yes, we deserve a stud.

Manziel is our best bet for Franchise QB only he can derail it I think. Also although I like the way he avoids hits I am afraid of them coming.

I don't believe in this well if we do we got to get rid of Manziel. I think he has earned starting QB status for next season.

jmho

j/c

I believe anyone with an open mind can see a vast improvement in JFF this year. I also believe that those who are purely negative are those trying to compare him to a finished product which he most certainly is not. Looking at him as a QB who has less than 10 starts under his belt, there are certainly things to be optimistic about.

There are however reasons to believe that this FO, owner and coaches have little to no confidence in JFF off the field. Now I don't believe that we on the outside know the entire story. We only know what is leaked out. But there are things going on behind the scene we simply don't have a clue about.

So with all things being equal, I hope whatever is going on behind the scenes do not create an atmosphere that calls for this FO to go in a different direction at the QB position.

Has JFF proven he can be a franchise QB? No, I don't believe he has. Will this four game stretch answer all the questions about JFF being our franchise QB? No, I don't think so. But if the next two weeks go as his last two starts have, I believe that's enough to roll the dice for another season. It appears he is developing and hasn't given up on this team. I see no reason this team should give up on him.

jmho

The intriguing guy in the draft that would benefit sitting for a year or two is Lynch.

In many ways he is like Big Ben and Cam Newton.

A big athletic guy that can move. Lynch could be the guy in two or three years that you look at and go wow.

There are never any guarantees in judging or forecasting college quarterbacks especially those that play in non-NFL type offenses.

My take is to go get the the best quarterback prospect in the draft. Let Manziel compete to stay the starter.

If there were a dominant pass rusher in the JJ. Watt vein I would be tempted. Bosa from what I have seen is no JJ Watt.

Theres not a QB in this draft worth taking in first round. I think you spend the picks and get some weapons, use 2016 to evaluate and if you're wrong, you're picking high again anyways and go and get a QB, But from what I've seen, Manziel has a pretty good football IQ, he just needs some weapons. He has plenty of arm and his moxie on the field is second to none. He doesn't wilt under pressure. Problem is he has no running game and wr's shorter than he is..get him a big wr corp and a running game and watch the PA bombs to Gordon. I'm all for keeping the coaching staff on the offensive side. I think they've done a decent job with the crap they were given by farmer.

Picking high and picking in the top two are not the same. We have been terrible for a decade and haven't picked this high.

If it is determined that there is a franchise guy available, we have to pick him.

The truth is, I don't dwell or keep judging the past,

The truth is, I believe people grow and mature.

The truth is, I know what he did.

The truth is, I don't know what he is capable of doing to help this team win.

The truth is, I prefer to give someone a chance , like I have been given.



That's the truth, but guess what ? Don't you think it's time to just put that behind ?

You stated some good positive points about him. Wouldn't it be better, to try and build on those then to dwell on the past ?

You are way to smart to know picking up another QB in the first round won't help this team.. Are you going to expect him to keep throwing to the same receivers that dropped 5-6 passes this last game ?

Is he going to have a running game to help him succeed ?

You know damn well we never build around our QB's, that's why they fail...

Can you put Johnnys past on hold for now, and give him some support to learn on how to become a better QB for the sake of this team ?

Lets try something new.. Lets try giving the QB some weapons and time.. It might just work.

How awesome would it be to see Manziel and Gordon tearing
up the league for the Browns.. It could happen, really it could.

I have no problem picking up a QB prospect in the later rounds, but we need help in other area's besides QB.

But all of this is speculation, Until we know who the HC and GM are next season, there may not be any of the QB's left from this season..

I agree.

If the organization sees Goff as a franchise QB- draft him. Stop being cute and trying to "win the draft" and draft what helps your team win. A franchise QB does that more than any other player. I feel like people are more interested in potential than actual results.

So wouldn't picking up Goff be for potential ? How do you know the actual results ?

Because A N Y T H I N G is better than what we have, don't cha know.

No.....

Depends on how the organization feels. I WANT Manziel to be given another chance. However, if they feel Goff would win them more games than Manziel then draft him.

I don't live in a fairy tale world where track record doesn't matter.

If we were to keep the current coaching staff I would be more inclined to want to keep Manziel. I don't think we are keeping the current coaching staff. That means Manziel starts from square one again.



http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/johnny_manziel_calls_for_brown.html

I don't dislike Manziel. I just don't know if he gives us the best chance to win. If he returns next season as our starter he will have my full support.

I hope they feel no QB will win as long as he doesn't have a good core around him..

Imo, no QB can come in here as a rookie and win with the receivers we have now.

I agree, I want to see Johnny for another season. No more rookies and no more McCown, he needs to mentor and spit that gum out.. I swear my horses didn't chomp as bad as he did sitting on the sidelines with JM....lol

I do to.

I didn't want to draft him in the first place, but I'm over that. I've liked what i've seen on the field so far from him, enough to say keep him & start him next year. And draft him a tall receiver or two for him to throw to. No more receivers under 3 feet - we have enough.

I think we should stick with Manziel, although I get that new management might not want the baggage. If we do keep him, I also get that his life problems present a higher than normal possibility of him not being able to live up to his potential. So drafting another QB prospect is not a bad plan, on the face of it. There are several concerns, first, drafting a QB high means not addressing other obvious needs on a team that has many obvious needs. Second, drafting yet another high-pick QB will inevitably bring pressure on the management to install the new guy UNLESS it is made plain from the start that the drafted QB is a 2 year project.

If Manziel is traded, then we have to get the best QB in this draft. I have read valid arguments for Lynch, Goff and Cook. I also wouldn't ignore Wentz and Jones. If Manziel stays, I would draft for weapons early, and focus on a 3-5 round QB and make it clear he is a 2 year project. And lets not forget that drafting isn't the only way to get a QB. Signing a FA of value seems unlikely, but not impossible, and trading for one is a possibility.

Well, he's only potentially better than what we have LOL

Is your way of thinking because Pet is hard on him and keeps him grounded.. ( whether or not agreed with )

Flip and O'Connell are doing a good job transitioning him to be an NFL QB.




Is that bad ? it could be good.. won't know until it materializes..

One thing I did find awkward.. At first Pet seemed sour on Johnny because he didn't stay in the pocket enough..

Against the Seahawks Johnny really held back and stayed in the pocket.. He really seemed he was trying to do what the coaches asked of him..

During the game there were times I would say , "just run Johnny " and he didn't, he held on to the ball, and there was no good play.

Now at half time.. Pet says..Johnny needs to use his feet more.. I'm like What ? Holy cow terds this kid is getting mixed messages...

Stay in the pocket.. no, use your feet... Hey, Why don't we give Johnny time to learn to balance between staying in the pocket, and knowing when to use his feet.

Maybe the new coaching staff/ GM might get JM some weapons to help him, because the one we have now thinks these short butter finger guys are the thing..



That... Damn near brought tears to my eyes....

No. I would want to keep Manziel with the current coaching staff because we aren't going to hire anywhere significant and tell them, "You have to start Manziel."

Also, three systems in three years would be death.



I don't know why. I was fully behind Manziel at the start of the season and wanted him to start multiple times throughout the season.

I was making fun of the ones on here who actually seem to believe that just any ole thing is better than what we currently have by virtue of being something else.

Probably should have used purple.

I knew what you meant.. that's why the smiley face was there

I thought he did a bit last week.

This week was really tough. The Seahawks didn't punt until the second half, and the Browns only had 7 possessions. The drops were killer, but more than that, when you're this offense, you can't have a defense giving up points on every single drive. You just can't have it.

Not a whole lot Johnny could have done yesterday. However, there are some things I think he could really work on. The short throws to the flat, for one. He either misses completely, or he doesn't put the ball in a spot for the receiver to catch it in motion. The receiver either has to catch behind him, or jump up (insert short WR joke here). On those routes, the ball has to be placed perfectly. You have a second to maybe a second and and a half to catch, secure, and make the one move on the initial defender to make your play. Brady is phenomenal at it. Manning in his prime... Rodgers, Ben, etc... That is the type of play that can soften the box. When we think of stretching the field, we always think vertical, but it works sideline to sideline as well. When teams have to worry about a WR or RB juking one guy and getting loose, you start to direct more attention that way.

If he could get that down, I think he has a promising outlook going forward. He clearly can get the ball downfield. He can do all of the outside the pocket stuff. He could really be quite a dangerous QB with good and accurate short passes.

You would really think that should be a point of focus right now anyway, since we don't have big receivers, and rely on speed and shiftiness.

I don't think we'll do very good in KC on Sunday, but I truly believe the Browns have a great chance to upset the Steelers in week 17, and how often have we really been able to say that? I really don't think this team has quit at all. They're just not very good, and the coaching isn't helping. IN a finale where maybe the guys rally around their probably departed coach, they an at least send him out with a win.

Back in the day coach Brown would have given him(JM) a swift kick
in the pants on his way out the door. . . . LAST YEAR! Brown ran a
tight ship.

Yeah, like PB did w/Jim Brown.

Paul Brown was a great innovator, but not a very good coach. His ego got in the way too much and he didn't treat players fairly and that is why he became a dinosaur.

Paul Brown is a Bengal. Not a Brown, even though his last name is Brown. LOL

???

Don't agree with everything in your post, but that is the first thing that came to my mind.

2 or 3 question marks would have been sufficient.

What is most painful about this whole saga is that Pettine and Farmer do not seem to have agreed about the selection of Manziel from the start. If Pettine wanted a drop back QB, Carr was there for the taking.

*General reply to catch up...*

If, and IF Manziel plays solid to finish out the season, I am actually comfortable not drafting a QB this year provided we keep the current group of QBs. I think McCown can play #2 in the league for at least one more season, and I don't think his contributions in developing Manziel can be discounted. Plus, given where Manziel was at the end of last season, I'd like to see how much more progress he can make under O'Connell, Flip, and YES Pettine.

I really don't think anyone thinks Manziel can prove he is a franchise guy by the end of the season, but I think there's enough opportunity for him to make a case to be the starter next season. I guess my standard for that would be for him to finish on par with the production we've gotten out of the QB position this season which has been pretty consistent. In other words, if the end of the season was instead the midseason Bye, would you continue to play him?

If he makes a case to start, I think the only way you draft a QB high is if you are really high on him and really believe he has a significant chance at becoming franchise level.

What this offense really needed this year was a legit game breaker or 2. If we had that I'd bet even McCown would have been on pace for a Pro Bowl year.

Agreed. We have a team that's full of 'complimentary players,' but no players who scare DC's into altering their game plans. No real consistent threat outside of Barnage. No stars.

I believe we have the same problem on D. Whit's known as a thumper, but we don't really have those 2 or 3 guys who give a D its identity. Think Lewis/Reed/Suggs.

It's one of the reasons I hate to consider another blow-up in the front office. There's a team that only needs 3-5 difference-makers to compete with the rest of the AFCN. The rest of the team is in place.

It's frustrating.

and some of us don't

Confused about what?

"Paul Brown was a great innovator, but not a very good coach. His ego got in the way too much and he didn't treat players fairly and that is why he became a dinosaur.

Paul Brown is a Bengal. Not a Brown, even though his last name is Brown. LOL"
==========================================================

Don't go there Vers unless you are prepared to discuss his entire football career. Starting with his record.

Two guys who started from day 1. I'm curious how you think Lynch would benefit from sitting for a year or two.

Because he needs a lot of work that those two didn't. He reminds me much more of Blaine Gabbert than Big Ben.

Lynch is a junior from a school that plays inferior competition. In addition the offense he plays under is a long way away from what he will see in the NFL.

Really though unless it is an unusual situation I believe that most college quarterback prospects coming into the NFL benefit greatly from a year or more on the sidelines.

There is just so much that they have to learn that playing in their rookie year in many cases is not a good thing. They are just not prepared for it.

He's not without reason ya know.

Johnny has done more off the field to injure the perception of him than anyone else.

So there is very good reason to question him.

Having said that, he appears to have cleaned up a little and when he's on the field, I see a young man trying his very best and frankly, I've been impressed with his play.

He's giving me hope that he can indeed be "THE MAN" for us.

But like a lot of people, I have a fear, will he keep his head on straight off the field?

I don't care who the coaching staff is made up of, they have to be able to trust and believe that Johnny won't self destruct.

Favre was reported to be a party animal. But I don't think I ever heard any of this coaches question his work ethic. I don't think I ever heard anyone say, Favre will be great if he gets his head on straight.

He partied hard, he played hard. That I can certainly live with. But the player has to know where the line is. Favre did, not sure Johnny does.

I'm more than willing, now that I've seen him play more, to give him time to show me.

Back when Favre was partying there was no social media to follow his every step. There are plenty of articles that came out years later about his habits. Here is one, but there are plenty more if you Google it:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/18/glanvilles-eye-opening-explanation-of-trading-favre/

Are there more Brett Favres or more Matt Jones?

Just wow!

Sad to hurt this much over that song's lyrics.

Scorching.

Needed more reverb.

More cowbell.

I won't disagree but honestly we live in different times and lots of stuff that players USED to do isn't acceptable social behavior. (for better or worse)

If Manziel wants to live like Favre, he needs to find a wayback machine and teleport himself back to that time and place.

No kidding. Just read one of Art Donovan's books to see what they did off the field. Johnny Unitas makes JF look like an angel.

But did Johnny Unitas miss practice and treatment and not know/learn his playbook? I don't know, I'm honestly asking. I've said all along that although I don't particularly like Manziel's image and think that his lifestyle is dangerous to himself and others, if he were just a hard partying kid who still showed up on time and busted ass then I'd be fine with him. It doesn't seem like that was the case last year altough perhaps he really has turned things around this season.

By all accounts he has been busting his ass this year.

Even Pet says he has been working huge

By all accounts he has been busting his ass this year compared to last year.....

Not really hard to do to be honest. What exactly did he do last year anyway?

Art has a way of writing that will make you laugh your arse off. Those guys routinely played with hangovers.

And at half time as well, if his story about the qb from the lions is true. I think it was Bobby Layne?

Regardless.....Art was a funny guy.

Dude easily makes one of my all-time Top 5 guests on Carson's Tonight Show.

what a funny, funny man.

Just remember in those days the play book was like 10 pages deep and QBs made all the calls.



Just remember 2014 JM was 21 years young and yes immature without a doubt he came out too soon maturity wise - why we had no intention of starting him year one. He made sophomoric choices and I think made great strides in getting back on the right path.

What I don't understand is all the negative references to 2014 as if it is still on going. In the outside world on your own after College from 21 to 22 people probably change and mature. Why all the talk of what he did in 2014 when there was an obvious difference in 2015. First in the parking lot last to leave but all is referenced is sleeping in class if that happened in didn't happen in 2015 so why state it as if it is an existing faux pas of his???

Why I don't take some of your (several posters) Manziel arguments seriously...
as always jmho opinion but this is just being real.

Another Manziel rumor, this time from ESPN's John Clayton ...



Dallas Cowboys Rumors: Johnny Manziel Will Beat RG3 To Big D For Fifth-Round Pick


By Eduardo Mendez
Sports World News
Dec 23, 2015


If Jerry Jones wasn't done acquiring bad QBs, he'll have his pick of the litter this offseason. He just won't look past Johnny Manziel, according to John Clayton.

Speaking on the "Dan Le Batard Show with Stugotz," the NFL Insider shared his insight on Manziel's future.

"I think he's going to be there [in Dallas] and I think he's going to beat RG3 there. Remember, RG3 has to hit free agency [in March]. The trade market opens up in February."

When pressed by Le Batard if he sees Manziel being a Cowboy, he added: "[For a] fifth, or sixth-round pick. Yes."

Johnny Manziel Might As Well Start Drinking During Games

Married to Tony Romo's health, the Cowboys saw what was once a promising season dwindle to a 4-10 record. Relying on Brandon Weeden, Matt Cassel and Kellen Moore will do that to you.

Relying on Manziel will only do more of the same.

The Browns QB has thrown for over 200 yards just twice this season and threw an INT in each of his last three starts. Cleveland -- unsurprisingly -- is 1-2 during that stretch.

The Cowboys are better off investing on a bionic skeleton for Romo instead.


http://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/...-pick-video.htm

Mendez is an idiot if that is all he saw of Manziel the last 3 games. Fact is I will lay odds he didn't even watch him play but is assessing from stats alone...smh

Stugatz is a moron I've listened to his show a couple of times and if this is what its based on - "I BELIEVE" from someone who thinks its cool to call him Stugatz which basically means MORON in Italian...smh

The reason I posted was John Clayton's remarks, which are in quotes. I heard him say it, and he sounded pretty confident.

I won't make any bold declarations, but if we trade Manziel for a 5th or 6th round pick, my "Don't give a damn" meter might just spike.

No way am I shooting the messenger. No need to explain. Thanks for sharing!

You see a quarterback making strides on the field. I swear we better not trade him away. Anyone with an IQ over 10 can see we have no offensive players to assist him and we need to get them through the draft, free agency, or what have you.

Please keep Pettine, Flip, Manziel, and fire Farmer and O'Niel. That's the way things should be.

Know mine will..and it would just add to my apathy level even more...ugh..why cant they get this turned around before I'm to old or just wont care anymore..I need to go watch something uplifting...this team is depressing sometimes.

Merry Christmas everyone.

hell i'd rather keep him here as a backup before letting him go for a garbage draft pick

Sounds like a plan. New defense and some hope for better FA and a coherent draft.

Actually, the way Johnny has been performing, we'd be idiots to only get a 5th or 6th rounder for him.

The other problem is, we would then need to draft another QB and in this years draft, I don't believe there is a sure fire winner in the bunch.

My biggest fear is that Manziel will self destruct again.

The Browns have sacrificed a lot to get Manziel to this point and there is no way in hell the Browns would let him go now...let alone for a 5th rounder.

Some sports writers try to get by with writing junk...that is all this is..junk!

Clayton is all speculation. This has zero merit.

Once again, the point wasn't what some wannabe sports writer thinks, nor is the point that it was on some slapnut sports talk show. But I do think John Clayton has some credibility, and like I said earlier, he stated this pretty confidently. He *might* know something.

I simply don't dismiss the road rage incident and lying to his coach as "in the past". I know you're the eternal optimist but whitewashing this guy's history and current activities as nothing more than water under the bridge is naive at best and self delusional at worst.

Come on, Stets. I think you're being a tad too harsh on his "road rage". It's more of a miscalculation on his part about the hot/crazy scale, but certainly not "road rage".

Agreed. entirely. It wasn't his fault she went all loony.

But it was his fault for passing cars at high speed in the breakdown lane. He may not have been drunk but he's yet again showing terrible personal decision making. Again, not "in the past".

I take it when you was 22 you never got caught in the car with a crazy woman and tried to get somewhere to stop FAST..holy crap the standards people hold Johnny to are funny to me sometimes

Most 22 year olds don't have the problems Manziel has had.

I heard John Clayton on ESPN Radio with Dan Le Batard. He predicted Manziel would be traded to the Cowboys for a 5th or 6th round pick.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14428578

The interview is within that hour of show if you want to give it at listen. Or you can just take my word for it.

Man ok...You/most must have lived a sheltered life

But I'll concede its your opinion. ..and some 22yr olds are worse then others

Just one other point and I'll drop it..at 22 the male brain isnt fully developed yet...so its not crazy to say/think a lot of 22yr olds arent making rational decisions and being all grown up.

So you are saying most 22 year old people have been arrested for being drunk while underage, gotten reprimanded at their job multiple times for not working hard enough, been in rehab, and had the police called on them because they were fighting with their significant other on the side of the road?

I disagree.

And I'll just take what Clayton says with a big ol grain of salt...but if that happens well just add it to the list of stupid things the Browns have done

Being 22 is not an excuse. There are literally millions of 22 year old people who work hard with no problems. There are hundreds of them in the NFL.

And it doesn't give you the right to endanger other people on the road. Of course that doesn't explain away lying to his coach, which leads to other suspicions like what else has he lied about?

Maybe he didn't only have 2 beers before the driving incident and the cop was just having flashbacks to when he was 22 and had an angry woman in his car so let Johnny go?

It's not the standards that he's held to that people should be looking at, but the lack of standards...

I think most 22 year olds don't have the benefits of getting into crazy things/given enough leeway that the NFL provides to JFF. But I do think 22 year olds face these own issues in their own way. It's all about scale.

Most no alot yes...agree or not..22 yr olds are not usually the epitome of decision making.

I dont know how you got that from my post but ok..

You literally said that his brain is not fully developed because he is 22.

Jesus man where did I excuse it?? I'm just saying the ones lambasting him should probably remember when they was 22 is all...I did dumb sh..at 22 and to be honest I dont know anyone that age who didnt.

Maybe you and others havent wasnt quite my point.

When you say his brain is not developed, that is excusing it.

Ugh, how did I get wrapped up in this again?

Well I disagree so it is what it is...I understand it..doesnt mean making excuses..

"I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying that a lot of people Manziel's age do dumb stuff and their brain isn't even fully developed. I did dumb stuff, so that means it's okay for Manziel to do dumb stuff. But I'm not making any excuses."

I agree. Manziel's celebrity is on an incomprehensible level.

I mean holy crap he was driving fast with his crazy girlfriend acting nuts in the car..lets just can his ass now. Now if he gets arrested suspended by the league for peds or substance abuse well he made his bed..

But I never made excuses for the guy.

Do you know what an excuse is?

You saying I understand how someone that age screws up is making excuses for them?? are you arguing to argue? if so I'll go do something else

Yes man I'm 54yrs old I know what an excuse is...I'm not arguing no more or even try to explain my position to someone who thinks I'm excusing bad behavior..have a great day.

j/c

Wow - I go away for a few minutes to watch some IRL youtube videos about fights (on the track and off) and a "fight" breaks out here?

It's one of the reasons why he has such major problems. 22 year olds just don't have the opportunities that Manziel have to get into this kind of trouble. Saying that they don't get into the same trouble is true, but only because they can't. They do have their own troubles like Manziel does, but to a lesser extent, because Manziel has the money to get into big trouble.

I agree somewhat. I just know that most young people can and do work hard without incident.

How many 22 year olds do you know that test their limits? I know a lot of people who try to test that line. Maybe it's my personality of being a habitual linestepper, that has attracted this crowd, but I don't think it is. I certainly think JFF needs to grow up, but I don't think he's currently out of control.

That's not a fight Arch...just someone telling me I make excuses for the Johnny Football. Have a great day Arch I have guests to attend to.

I think he was out of control (hence the rehab).

I would guess that most 22 year olds, have a car, or at least drive, they can certainly get alchohol and most if not all can get other drugs if they want. There's nothing in Johnny's money outside of the label on his bottle of booze that's extraordinary it's the likelihood that someone will snap a picture of it and post it online. So no, his money doesn't make his troubles and "more" than anyone else's, his have just been going on longer because he's been enabled. This coaching staff may be the first people in his life that have called him on it and maybe it's sunk in.

Doesn't make him 4 inches taller, stronger, or more accurate, but at least he wouldn't be playig catch up on a personal AND professional front...

If we unload him for a 5th, I hope they hold out for at least 52 Krispy Kreme's and give something back to the players.

At this point the only way they unload him for a 5th round pick is if all we've been hearing about his attitude and work ethis is BS. I wouldn't even agree to that at this point. Better let him finish out his contract as our number 2 than to get so little back. Now a 2nd rounder...that I'd consider. LOL

Seriously, he is worth 2nd round at least.

It doesn't make sense to trade him while his ceiling is unknown.

There is a 0% chance we get a second round pick for him.

I think there is zero percent chance we trade him.

Agreed. Haslam won't let that happen, the fans will be furious if that happens.

Johnny is a player and will only get better if he keeps his "stuff" together.

Except for the ones who won't be furious.

If you don't think there is a chance that Manziel is not on this team next year, then you are burying your head in the sand.

The likelihood of Manziel being traded increases exponentially if Pettine is fired.

Oh there's a chance he won't be. I just think he will be.

Somewhat random but related. I remember some years ago when Buddy Ryan was coaching the Eagles. He told the GM to get Ernest Jackson out of there. I believe the exact quote was, "Trade him for a six pack. It doesn't even have to be cold." Pretty sure he went to the Steelers and rushed for 1,000 yards!

I think there is a 0 percent chance we would settle for a 5th round pick.

I think there is a 100 percent chance cfrs will continue to say dumb things w/conviction.

Except for one thing...there was no referencing of road rage - btw when was that??? or referencing the lying part. I read references to being a drunk - sleeping in class and not coming on time.

When the reality not eternal optimism, is that His car was first in the lot when coaches came to camp...his car was last to leave.

Accounts of the players to a man stating how it has been night and day on his dedication to the game and how they believe in him now.

How bout we just go with the TRUTH not this crap about 2014... How bout them Apples...lol love that line.

Sorry my aim is not to insult but the premise that we would, HASLAM would let anyone trade Manziel who is showing promise at the just turned age of 23 - trade him for a bucket of piss. IS RIDICULOUS. 5th rounder for a legitimate Franchise QB Prospect is RIDICULOUS and Perdue Chicken is BOZO....

Lest we forget one thing...possibly posters here but I can assure you HASLAM will not forget.

JOHNNY! JOHNNY!! JOHNNY!!! being chanted by the crowd like no other QB has been chorused before in this 1999 to present era!

fact... the punk had to deal with the police twice since he got out of rehab.

fact... he did not show up for weight training and pettine had to cover for him. that was right after he was demoted.

fact... he did something to in fact get demoted.

now these are only the things we know as fact.....

Theres no way you could logically explain trading a player to a team for a 5th rounder, that two years ago wanted to use a Top 15 pick on him..

Regardless of the off the field stuff.. which IMO, I wouldn't assume Jerry Jones wouldn't mind some more stuff written about the Cowboys.. ("No publicity is bad publicity")

Especially right after he starts actually looking like he can play NFL level QB.

Thats just ridiculous.

There are few organizations out there that care what their 22 year old employees do with their time off. As long as you show up to work on time and do your job, typically nobody cares. I personally could care less what he does with his off time as long as he performs well and continues to improve on Sunday's.

The problem is that the media and public still believe that these guys are role models when they really aren't. They are fantasy people living a fantasy life for the entertainment of the average individual. These guys are in the same realm of the pop, movie, and music stars. None of which are role models that consistently display family values as a whole. If we are dumb enough to sell righteousness to our children through these creatures of fantasy, we are a sad society.

Bottom line, I don't care about Johnny Football, the individual; I only care if he can be the answer we've desperately needed at QB.

This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to say all along in which you said it so eloquently. These players need to stop being viewed as role models and more for what they are on the field. WHO CARES about their personal lives, I don't watch on sunday to see how his mom and dad are doing. I watch because I want the Browns to WIN! It's a business and these guys are cattle.

Right now,I would not trade Johnny for a first rounder. Why? Because we'd use it for a QB and those guys have a high bust rate and Johnny has showed he can be a good starter. Oh, and that first rounder would be used by Farmer, probably on a long-snapper.

You're funny...and thank you for proving my point. Those are the only FACTS that you wish to consider as facts you just totally ignored all the good facts...lol can't get more factual than that...