With the draft coming up, it will be the new front offices greatest challenge so far.

Based on their performance in free agency, I'm very concerned about the judgement of our inexperienced Moneyballers.

That's a fair statement, mac, and it's crucial that they get it right. It will be interesting to see how the evaluations/recommendations of the coaching and scouting staffs correlate with the analytics of the FO. Let's hope they're on the same page...

One situation that could be an issue..should the Browns front office trade with the Titans for the #1 spot, so they don't get leap frogged and out maneuvered for a chance at the QB of their choice...

I would be very surprised if they did. Hold on to the draft choices...they are golden.

...and if another team trades with the Titans for the #1 spot and they take the top QB the Browns are targeting...then what?

The cost to move one spot would not be that steep and it would insure the Browns get their future franchise QB.

We better not draft a QB. We have damn near zero playmakers.

Can we actually draft some weapons, please?

mac, I think it would be a mistake for the Browns to draft a qb at 2. I think it would be ignorant if they trade up to draft one.

It would be similar to that "genius" move that Heckert made when he moved-up to take TRich.

I am actually hoping the Browns trade down.

This is a critical decision for this front office. How important is getting the best QB in this draft to the Browns Moneyball front office.

What will they do?

Gamble and lose...if they fail in the draft as well as free agency..that would be a rough way for the new front office to start the 2016 season.

I've defended you, but now you are being as unfair as those who bash you.

It would be totally unfair to say the FO failed if they don't draft one of the top qbs.

Sometimes that stuff works itself out. Last year we were worried we had no playmakers and Barnidge/Benjamin stepped up to the plate.

Could be the case this year. If we see a guy we view as a franchise QB in the draft, we gotta take'm if they're there. No single player will improve this team as much as a franchise QB.

Now, if we don't see Wentz or Goff as franchise, then things are different

vers...it's not my intention to turn this thread into a "draft" thread. I'm aware of your draft preferences but for this thread, let's make the choice of a QB at #2 hypothetical...

vers...a QB, hypothetically..

...I'm not being unfair..I'm being "realistic".

This front office could be faced with this decision, to move up to get a player they really need.

I understand your intention there, mac, but if we are "evaluating" the FO performance, the coming draft will be an inherent part of that...

I would respectfully suggest that we are going to get at #2, a player we really need (whether it's our first choice or not)...

32...best to wait until after the draft.

That doesn't make sense, mac.

How the hell can you say the FO "failed" if they don't get a qb.

You know, a lot of these guys on here rip me because I have a different opinion than the majority. However, I always try and play fair. You can't label the FO a failure just because they don't draft a qb or because they don't trade up to get one. What if they trade up, take a qb, and he fails?

Play fair!

vers...best to wait until after the draft to judge the performance of our front office.

LOL.....okay.

Btw mac, who brought the draft up? Any clue?

I want post superbowldogg's post that was on the end of closed thread.

There is a lot of information to digest...



http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/15159159/why-paul-depodesta-bringing-moneyball-browns

'I thought he was a genius until he agreed to work for the Browns'

This story appears in ESPN The Magazine's April 25 NFL Draft Issue. Subscribe today!

NFL SCOUTING REPORT

Name: Paul DePodesta
Age: 43
Height/weight: 5-foot-9, 165 pounds
Hometown: Alexandria, Virginia
College: Harvard, 1995 (economics, cum laude)
Previous position: VP of player development and amateur scouting, New York Mets
Football experience: 1992-94 Harvard, wide receiver; 1995 Baltimore Stallions of the Canadian Football League, unpaid intern, duties included operating T-shirt cannon
Bench: 225 lbs. @ < 0 reps
Evaluated by: More than a dozen analytics experts from across the sports landscape
Photos from field report of prospect DePodesta. File under: Through the Years. Photo Collage by The Voorhes for ESPN

OVERVIEW

BROWNS' NEW CHIEF strategy officer is most intriguing NFL prospect of the last decade. Bob Bowman, MLB president of business and media, called DePodesta hire "most interesting sports story of 2016." Elite-level thinker spent 20 years as leading mind behind sabermetrics revolution in baseball made famous by best-selling book and movie Moneyball, based on his then-radical approach with Oakland Athletics. In January, with zero football experience, hired by Cleveland to oversee progressive, analytics-first overhaul of its front office, roster, culture. Will face major obstacles while attempting to challenge decades-old NFL scouting, drafting, team-building and performance models. At stake: fate of franchise, future of analytics in football and DePodesta's legacy. "Paul had a big impact on the way the entire baseball industry operated," states Ben Baumer, a statistical analyst with Mets from 2004 to 2012. "This is a chance for Paul to do it all over again in a different sport. We all want to know: Is it all going to translate, can Paul get lightning to strike twice?"

FEEDBACK FROM FIELD

"BRILLIANT BUT NOT condescending." ... "Reticent but not socially aloof." ... "Smarter than advertised." ... "Process-oriented to the end, not swayed by wins, losses or emotions." ... "Focused on getting it right as opposed to getting credit -- which is why he can't survive most front offices." ... "Not a great communicator." ... "I thought he was a genius until he agreed to work for the Browns."

Editor's Picks

ESPN the Mag: The Podcast: Paul DePodesta tries to save Cleveland

ESPN: The Mag

VISION

BASIS OF WHAT DePodesta and Browns are attempting not new. Majority of NFL teams begrudgingly use analytics without fully embracing concept. Besides scouting and drafting, teams employ analytics to weigh trades, allot practice time, call plays (example: evolving mindset regarding fourth downs) and manage clock. What will differentiate DePodesta and Cleveland is extent to which Browns use data science to influence decision-making. DePodesta would like decisions to be informed by 60 percent data, 40 percent scouting. Present-day NFL is more 70 percent scouting and 30 percent data. DePodesta won't just ponder scouts' performance but question their very existence. Will likewise flip burden of proof on all football processes, models and systems. Objective data regarding, say, a player's size and his performance metrics -- example: Defensive ends must have arm length of at least 33&#8719; inches -- will dictate decision-making. Football staff will then have to produce overwhelming subjective argument to overrule or disprove analytics. "It's usually the other way around," states member of AFC team's analytics staff. "I'm jealous, to be honest. I was hoping we'd be the first to do this, but the Browns are beating everyone to the punch. Only question is how much of a tie-yourself-to-the-mast mentality will they have, and for how long?"

RED FLAGS

SECURING FUTURE OF analytics in football will require massive amounts of talent, patience and intellectual ingenuity from franchise notoriously devoid of all three. At MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference in March, unilateral fear existed inside analytics community that systemic ineptitude of Browns franchise will be too substantial for even DePodesta to repair. Failure would damage legacy of beloved industry pioneer and set field of sports data science back decades. "If you love analytics and want it to grow and succeed in the NFL, then you know Cleveland is a nightmare scenario," states NFL executive with 20 years of experience in analytics. "Cleveland is a crazy, terrible place for this to be tested in football."
Prospect DePodesta has been known for hard work and smart thinking. Photo Collage by The Voorhes for ESPN

BACKGROUND (COLLEGE)

RECRUITED TO HARVARD in 1991 as shortstop, center fielder, pitcher. Played baseball for Crimson, one year. Injury to throwing shoulder forced him to quit baseball and switch to football, first love since fifth grade, according to associates. "Always been a football guy, deep down," confirms longtime Harvard coach Tim Murphy. Majored in economics with emphasis in psychology. Was once concerned about being labeled "dumb jock" at Harvard. To combat that image, wore button-down shirts, khakis and glasses (instead of contacts) in classroom. Worry about image unfounded. Despite running precise pass routes that former Harvard teammates state could have been measured with protractor, DePodesta failed to record single receiving stat in entirety of Crimson football career. "I got into baseball, and everyone just started calling me a geek, like, 'There's the nerd from Harvard,'" DePodesta stated at Sloan. "Then it took 20 years of working in baseball and me actually leaving and going to football for people to say, 'He's the baseball guy.' So maybe at some point I'll be known as a football guy too."

BACKGROUND (MLB)

AFTER CFL INTERNSHIP, started front office career with Indians in 1996; by the next year was advance scout. Using data, began to question game's processes and implicit assumptions about everything, especially inherent, yet undetected, flaws in decision-making. (Example: Scouts give excessive weight to a player's most recent performance in predicting future performance.) November 1998, age 25, hired away from Indians by Oakland GM Billy Beane. Despite minuscule payroll, analytic approach lifted A's to four straight playoffs (but no championships) while inspiring Moneyball book and movie. Played by Jonah Hill in movie. Beyond obvious physical differences, character seemed to be accurate portrayal: contrarian, painfully awkward at times, process-oriented and unswayed by emotion or outcome on field. "Paul's the Christopher Columbus of analytics," states Astros director of decision sciences Sig Mej­dal. "Others may have come and gone before him. But it was his arrival that led to a permanent industry change."

BACKGROUND (CONTINUED)

FEBRUARY 2004, NAMED GM of Los Angeles Dodgers. After initial success, struggled with role as public face of club, communication with media and human element. Interpersonal skills exposed as notch or two below elite. Derided as "Google Boy" by Los Angeles Times. 2005 season: 71 -- 91. October same year: fired. Spent four seasons with Padres in baseball operations, final two as executive VP. Joined Mets' front office, 2010, run by GM Sandy Alderson, Harvard Law School graduate and sabermetrics acolyte. DePodesta named VP of player development and amateur scouting. Commuted from family residence outside San Diego. Revamped processes behind Mets' approach to scouting, drafting, development, trades and free agency. Four straight losing seasons to start. October 2015, Mets win first pennant in 15 years. Lose to Royals in World Series.

PSYCH PORTRAIT, PART I

QUESTION MOST HEARD while preparing DePodesta report: Why now? Why leave chance at World Series for long shot with Browns? Opinion of associates familiar with Mets organization is that DePodesta was as far back as fourth in line for eventual GM job. Family and home remain in San Diego. GM job with Mets would require move to New York. (Browns allowing DePodesta to cross-country commute.) Also, analytics community feels that while sabermetrics pioneers such as Bill James and DePodesta transformed baseball, they never truly conquered it. "In the last 10 years, you'd be hard-pressed to come up with something new or original that Bill or Paul contributed to the field," states a former MLB analytics researcher. According to DePodesta, Browns offered chance to explore uncharted territory, "to try something different and take on unique challenge in the NFL."

PSYCH PORTRAIT, PART II

TO USE INDUSTRY colloquialisms: If DePodesta becomes first stat nerd to master NFL, he will forever be known as Obi-Wan Kenobi of analytics. No denying ego played some role in jump to NFL. In Oakland, DePodesta's superior mind was driving force behind team's success. Public credit and notoriety all went to Beane. DePodesta's high-profile flameout with Dodgers compounded by way it coincided with Beane disciple Theo Epstein emerging as sabermetrics savior in Boston. Success in NFL would instantly leapfrog DePodesta over intellectual contemporaries in baseball.

IMPENDING TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION

NOT A COINCIDENCE DePodesta jumped to NFL just as league announced release of RFID (radio frequency identification) signals data collected in stadiums since 2014. Chips embedded in shoulder pads track real-time player position, movement and speed. Original massive amount of precise, insightful player performance data seen as NFL's Moneyball moment. Ben Alamar, ESPN director of sports analytics, classifies new RFID data set as "transformational." Says it "will wipe out all current limitations of NFL analytics and dramatically change the football world as we know it." Example: Teams will know instantly whether quarterback is throwing to most open receiver, pass rusher coming off knee surgery is moving at pre-injury speed or opponent alters position of safety by an inch in any direction on third downs. Use of RFID chips by NCAA would eventually make NFL combine obsolete. Only variable, Alamar says, is "how big teams want to think, how deep an understanding they want to gain." This being NFL, of course, many teams will likely not understand scope or potential of new data or even bother to open the files. Therefore, DePodesta's unique skill set combined with avalanche of raw RFID data could immediately close gap on competitors (like Steelers) who use more antiquated scouting systems.

OWNERSHIP OBSTACLES

FOR A YEAR, with franchise in disarray, Browns owner Jimmy Haslam, his wife, Dee, and new executive VP of football operations Sashi Brown reached out to learn from successful sports organizations. Crash course for Haslam, among worst owners in sports, re: leadership, turnover, analytics. Case in point: Before 2014 draft, team commissioned $100,000 study on quarterback prospects. Data strongly recommended drafting Teddy Bridgewater with No. 22 pick. Haslam said to have dismissed analytics and drafted Johnny Manziel. Bridgewater now Pro Bowl QB. Manziel out of football. Team now on 25th starting QB since 1999.

Under Haslam, Browns are 19 -- 45 and have lost 18 of past 21 games. Since buying team in 2012, Haslam has fired three coaches, and Browns are on sixth general manager in past eight years. Last season owner publicly committed to long-term rebuilding plan with promise not to "blow things up." In January, fired coach Mike Pettine and GM Ray Farmer.

Upon meeting Haslam, DePodesta explained how most owners treat Moneyball approach like a child riding a roller coaster. Kids beg to ride, wait in line for 45 minutes, get to front of line, see giant first hill and say, "I'm not getting on that thing." DePodesta states owners often want disciplined, process-oriented plan. But when it comes time to make tough decision, they panic. DePodesta told Haslam, "There are gong to be parts of the roller coaster that are going to be scary, that are going to be uncomfortable, but hopefully at the end of the ride, when we get off, you're going to want to say, 'Let's do it again.'"

Consensus inside NFL: Browns will get worse, much worse, before they get better, and turnaround could require up to five years, or twice the time Haslam typically tolerates. "In the pros, five years might as well be forever," Harvard's Murphy states. AFC analytics staffer states DePodesta could have perfect front office season and Browns still lose 14 games in 2016.

WORK ENVIRONMENT

HASLAM'S NEW COMMITMENT to Money(foot)-ball model evident in restructuring of Browns front office into Harvard West. DePodesta reports only to owner. Final say on 53-man roster now belongs to Sashi Brown, 39, fellow Harvard grad and Browns' former general counsel who worked on salary cap and player contracts. Brown, in turn, hired Harvard grad and former Colts pro scouting coordinator Andrew Berry, 28, to be Cleveland's VP of player personnel. Browns' top analytics mind, Ken Kovash, promoted to director of football research and player personnel. Fourth Harvard grad, Kevin Meers, is now team's head research analyst. In total, three of top four decision makers have no NFL scouting or roster-building experience. Cleveland brain trust now unlike anything else in football, which is exactly the point.

Fifth person in team's draft-day war room, coach Hue Jackson, is wild card. He favors gut, eye and instinct over data -- even to own detriment. Seemed out of loop at combine when he suggested analytics "not going to drive our organization." Hope is Jackson can bring balance and unique perspective to data-driven decision-making. Fear is he's "a very bad fit," according to former NFL exec. "It's not just Hue Jackson," same source states. "When data overrides gut, the majority of his coaching staff will all be there screaming, 'What the f--- are these computer guys doing? They don't understand football, they don't understand the locker room. They're killing us.'"

EARLY FIELD DATA

FREE AGENCY OFFERED glimpse into DePodesta "roller coaster" and Browns' new dispassionate, counterintuitive process. Leveraged deeply flawed, desperate Robert Griffin III into two-year deal with minimum ($6.75 million) guarantee. Move allows team to still draft Carson Wentz or Jared Goff in first round. Only now Browns can use Griffin during roster rebuild while protecting and developing rookie passer and future franchise QB. Should Griffin long shot pay off, Browns can lock him up at minimal salary cap hit.

In first 24 hours of free agency, team let four starters leave, including right tackle Mitchell Schwartz (to Kansas City) and Pro Bowl center and team's 2009 first-round pick Alex Mack (to Atlanta). Move left fans, media, NFL "experts" dumbfounded. Left analytics community impressed. Since 2011, teams that have spent least amount of guaranteed money in free agency -- Bengals (.656), Packers (.706), Steelers (.613) -- are among those with highest winning percentages. These teams, along with Ravens and Patriots, rebuild over long haul by stockpiling as many draft picks as possible, then supplement with free agents only when team is within striking distance of title. Accordingly, Browns now have 10 draft picks, tied for second most in league, including two in top 32. Ultimate test of Browns' commitment to new team-building conventions remains trading perennial All-Pro left tackle Joe Thomas, 31, if team gets anything close to first- and second-round picks that Broncos offered at 2015 trade deadline.

CONCLUSION

DEPODESTA DISPLAYS LEGITIMATE high-level, game-changing assets in otherwise staid NFL. Scores off the charts in mental makeup, creativity, vision, instincts, potential. Greatest variable remains whether Browns and owner Haslam can do something truly radical and stick to DePodesta plan for more than two years, especially if team initially struggles on field.

So far, DePodesta responding well to unique challenges of NFL. In February, attended first NFL combine. He reported overhearing NFL front office types trash-talking Browns. Synopsis: Browns so desperate, team turned to "baseball guy." Conversation, attitude reminiscent of famous scene from Moneyball movie involving similar grizzled, stubborn, get-off-my-lawn old-timers. Those scouts were eventually exposed, rendered obsolete, by DePodesta's analytics. "I said, 'All right, this is like 17 years ago in Oakland all over again,'" DePodesta says. "That's part of the fun."

High-character response consistent with overall exceptional NFL prospect. Early, elite levels of optimism not major concern. Those will quickly regress to mean in Cleveland
_________________________

vers...let me go over to the draft section.

Re: mac from old thread on moneyball/cap space

You keep saying that baseball is not the NFL, and you can't win with moneyball. I don't think you're looking at the whole moneyball concept fairly. It's not about being cheap. It is about maximizing your resources. In the NFL everyone has the same amount to work with, so in theory it should be even more effective in football than baseball. Obviously it is not quite that straightforward as you actually have to do a good job of applying the analytical concepts and tying them to football evaluations instead of just using analytics.

As for having the most cap space not winning games, neither does having the least. Look at all the years the Redskins won the offseason, yet when was the last time they won a Superbowl?

QB and Passrusher are probably the highest paid/most important positions. We don't have an elite player at either one. Should we use our cap space so that we can't afford to keep them if we do manage to find one?

Our roster makeup has been a mess. We spent the most in the NFL on our Defense, and it was horrible. You've got to spend your money in the right places.

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2015/0...efense-in-2015/

So, was Sashi lying when he said this:

A very good point, Grimm. A wise allocation of money will go a long way to ensure continued success (once we get there, naturally)...

If we get there...

No, it is important. We just have to find the right ones to keep.

What is the right way? People tend to ignore that part of the quote. Mack tried to leave before. Schwartz's agent basically tried to extort more money out of us. Gipson let his displeasure with his tender be well known.

We re-signed Barnidge in December. I can see how you could say he did it the right way. I never heard word of him complaining about money. Maybe we're looking for players focused on football and the work and being the best players they can be rather than players looking for easy money, easy wins.

It's not a matter of "If", rather it's "When"...

I am not going to get into another debate about how/why they left. We have all stated our opinions. I just wish you would stop repeating your opinions as fact.

The man is saying what's on his mind, how is that stating it as fact? It's no different than what you say, just on a different side of things. I happen to agree with him. There is no need to have to put a disclaimer before or after everything someone says, that's just silly.

I don't know of any trades from #2 to #1, but here are a couple from #3 to #2.

Chargers receive: 1998 first-rounder (No. 2: QB Ryan Leaf)

Cardinals receive: 1998 first-rounder (No. 3: DE Andre Wadsworth), 1998 second-rounder (No. 33: DB Corey Chavous), 1999 first-rounder (No. 8: WR David Boston), WR Eric Metcalf, LB Patrick Sapp




Redskins receive: 2012 first-rounder (No. 2: QB Robert Griffin III)

Rams receive: 2012 first-rounder (No. 6: Traded to Cowboys), 2012 second-round selection (No. 39: CB Janoris Jenkins), 2013 first-rounder (No. 22: Traded to Falcons), 2014 first-rounder (No. 2: OT Greg Robinson)

Trading up when you need everything is not even a little brained move. If anything trade down.

Okay, fine.

The Browns FO failed. All four free agents wanted to return to Cleveland. The FO blew them all off because they are too cheap to spend money on good players. Instead, they are all about marketing and making money. They have designed this "new" plan to buy them more time w/their fan base while they steal millions of more dollars from their unsuspecting public.

Look.............you guys say to stop talking about certain things. You have advocated censorship. Yet, you continue to bring up what happened w/the free agents and FO while the rest of us are not supposed to talk about it.

Me thinks you talk out of both sides of your mouth.

Really? I'm surprised, that coming from you.

They do have to do a good job. It's too important not to. But they don't have to set the NFL on fire with their brilliance, which I think some will hold them to and will be ready to pounce if they don't.


They need to improve on the past few FOs. They need to hit on some picks, especially the first three rounds. They need to bring in some talented players who fit what Hue is trying to do.

At a minimum, they have to hit big on that first round pick. They have to get the right guy be it a QB or any other position. That player has to make sense and play at a high level for a rookie and go on to improve from there.

Was he lying Vers or was it that those that were our FA and good players did not want to be here or that the price to have them stay was higher than what the new FO was willing to pay? I don't know the answer and neither does anyone else. However, logically speaking it would make no sense for Sashi to public convey this approach and then not try to do what he could to do what he said. Then again when was the last time logic and the Browns were use synonymously together?

I don't think he was lying at all.

At the end of the day he wasn't able to pull it off.

A statement like that doesn't sound like an attempt at a lie.

I agree w/that. In fact, that is why I challenged Grimm in the first place when he brought up about us not signing those free agents because they were trying to keep money for QBs and DE's, you know, true impact positions.

I tempered my opinions with could be and maybe. I don't see how you get presenting things as facts from that.

You're the one saying "The FO failed" over and over like it is some one shot instantaneous deal. No could have, no seems to. Just straight they failed.

I didn't say that's what they were doing. I asked a question if that is what we should do.

But hey, that's me stating opinions as facts. Facts always end in question marks.

LB, what was that quote in the movie "Whitemen Can't Jump?" Oh yeah, "even the sun shines on a dogs ass."

Now look whos stating opinion as fact

It was fun making things up. No responsibility to keep things accurate. Just make it up, state it as fact, and then later claim it was just an opinion. Let's do it more.........

Hey, it's all opinion.....Until it's not

This is like the 4th or 5th retread of mac's rant on the ownership which apparently is pure football.

Whether Josh Gordon plays this season or not is not pure football.

Only in Cleveland.

Well, when was the last time the Browns played "pure football?"

When Boyz II Men were crankin' out the hits!

I see both sides of things.

Skrine wanted to much money that we werent about to equal yet we then spend 10 mil a year on Truman Williams who was over the hill.

We want Gipson, he is a special player then we give him a 2nd round tender. Kid should have received a first round tender and we wouldnt be where we are.

Then we give Bowe 10 mil a year and wont even speak to a guy that damn near killed himself for us the year before.

I liked some of what Farmer did but he created a rift between FO and Players that is going to be very hard to repair. Do I blame Schwartz and his agent wanting more not trusting the Browns FO? not one damn bit.

Do i blame Mack for seeking greener pastures in Atlanta? not one damn bit, he fits their scheme better anyway adn do u want to be another joe thomas 10 year vet with no playoff appearances.

Doesnt really matter what side of the coin you are on, these moves created a major mistrust and waiting up until most of the FA money dried up to release Whitner doesnt help that mistrust between players and FO at all.

If I am a player, I do treat this place as a 4 year training program. I like what this FO is trying to do but this is not a good relationship and unless they start wrapping up our own very early, we arent gonna be able to keep any of these guys.

I actually do "jmho" and I still get reamed and accused. but I'm sure I'm incorrect so I will just do what is asked and SHUT UP.

Keep in mind, corporations (such as the Cleveland Browns) will do what's in their own best interest..They may have feelings for certain players, but that's it. They will always do what the leadership deems as best for the Corporation..

just clicking ...

The more I read about this moneyball crap the worse I feel ... this FO org. is a disaster ...

Why didn't MORON just learn from the Stilers while he was there ...

there's 4 or 5 things in that article that SCARE THE CRAP OUT OF ME ...

1. Depo said he wants analytics to be 60% and scouting to be 40% .... and that the football people will have to make an OVERWHELMING CASE to override the analytics ...

talk about putting the cart in front of the horse ... this is a frickin disaster ..

2. it shows the most successful franchises spend the least in FA .... with NO CORRELATION or TAKING INTO ACCOUNT anything else ...

the conclusion of the analytical geeks is we had a GREAT FA period simply because we didn't spend much ... meanwhile I along with EVERY NFL EXEC (I could care less what they think 99% of the time .. but when its ALL OF THEM then I give it credence) think we MADE A MAJOR MISTAKE letting all 4 walk ...

and this to me is just one of the many reasons ANALYTICS WON'T EVEN COME CLOSE TO WORKING IN FOOTBALL ...

3. It basically says Hue is anti-analytics in that he KNOW using your eyes is the BEST WAY TO ANALYZE a player and then talk to those around him to find out WHO THEY ARE ...

point being ... it appears we could be heading for another COLLISION ... these guys can say what they want now .. when this years over and were picking in the top 3 again ... WE'LL SEE HOW THE KUMBAYA TEAM IS DOING ... finger pointing is NOT AS FAR AWAY AS WE THINK ...

this moneyball thing is just what I told Ddub the other day in a PM ...

HASLAM IS REACHING CAUSE HE HAS FAILED MISERABLY in his hires .. guys .. u can fool yourselves all u want .. but

BOTTOM LINE: this is a f'n EXPERIMENT ... Haslam has failed so MISERABLY he has turned our BELOVED BROWNS into a frickin SCIENCE EXPERIMENT!!!!!!

Some science experiments are fun and have extraordinary results.

I think analytics in football should be a tool. No problem w/that. But, a tool is not the end-all. It's simply part of the process.

And Haslam.........this "new" blow-up, followed by a "new" plan just buys him more time.

Yes!

My take (AKA not fact):

The analytics is for choosing where to spend money. The scouting is for choosing who to spend that money on.

Analytics are big picture: which positions to invest the most in, what traits to emphasize looking for, situational stat integration, tendencies, etc.

Scouting is more specific: looking at individual players.

We've actually been decent at finding good individual players (Thomas, Mack, Schwartz, Haden, Gipson, D. Bryant [decent might be a little strong]). The problem is we've sucked at finding them at impact positions and putting it all together.

Can this way be all that worse?

I hate to say but Haslam doesn't have borrowed time...he owns the team til he sells it or dies.

To be blunt and real here, all our non Moneyball approaches have landed us people like Weeden, Gilbert, Manziel and the list continues for eternity. Are we really diving deeper back than what we've been for years and years now?

If we can not pick people like Gilbert, Manziel, Weeden and the list continues - I'd say the experiment an instant success. Big word there is "if" though.

ut oh.......

I agree it should be a tool ... article states currently NFL teams are doing 70 - 30 scouting over analytics ...

were going 60 - 40 analytics over scouting ... and the Depo said the football folks will have to make an OVERWHELMING ARGUMENT to override the analytics ..

GOOD LUCK RUNNING A FOOTBALL PLAYER AQUISITION SYSTEM like that .. GOOD FRICKIN LUCK ...

I forgot the line where Depo said that ..

THE RESULTS ON THE FIELD DON'T MATTER .... I know what he meant by that ... and I get it .. but its just STUPID ... the results on the field are all that matter ...

Yeah boss............I was agreeing w/you.

I think they should be a tool rather than the end-all. Get it now?

or we could just HIRE GOOD FOOTBALL PEOPLE AND LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS ... that seems to have worked for the team he used to own but apparently learned nuttin from ...

and IF we do get better draftpicks that pan out .. then comes the MONEYBALL PROBLEM ... we have to RE-SIGN THEM and based off this year ... they best be willing to take a STEEP HOME TOWN DISCOUNT or there gonzo ...

Why does Moneyball mean we don't pay players?

I am assuming he is going off of the only data is out there. The Browns allowed four productive players to walk in free agency. Three of them were looking for their second contracts.

Hard to predict they will re-sign the next batch of free agents given their actions thus far.

Results on the field not mattering I think refers to Wins and losses. Good players can be on bad teams.

I interpret that to mean don't rule Goff out because his best season was around .500.

I think "scouting" won over the analytics in Bridgewater vs. Manziel. Which would you rather have now?

Is character classified as scouting or analytics?

*LOL* ... WOW .... Vers ... our PM convo ringing a bell here ... *L* ..

key words ... U THINK .... get back to me when u know ...

we commissioned a study ... we didn't use analytics .. HUGE DIFFERENCE between analytics and a study ...

ME THINKS ... we had someone BUTT IN AND CRAM HIM DOWN OUR FOOTBALL PEOPLES THROATS ....


I would think u have to take character into concern when putting together your analytics equation ... if u don't take character into account you can't have ACCURATE CONCLUSIONS drawn a players worth or chance to succeed or whatever the hell the outputs called .. *L* ..

and we now know .. we either didn't to any backround checking on Johhny Footballs character OR we did the research and JUST IGNORED IT!!!

that was not an analytics based decision ..

NICE TRY THOUGH ...

that's a good ASSumption ... that and the fact we signed NO ONE OF SIGNIFICANCE to fill those positions ...

and it becomes and even better ASSumption when u take ALL THE VARIABLES INTO ACCOUNT ... the main one being:

WERE WELL UNDER THE SALARY CAP and have no one (LITERALLY NO ONE) that were going to use SOME/ANY of that salary cap room money to re-sign in the next year or two ... or MAYBE EVEN LONGER THAN THAT ...

I was very heartened by that article. The idea that the new technology on the field will allow us to chart and break down plays and players like never before is a huge plus! The idea that we're going to use facts and figures to be the starting point for our decisions instead of hunches and gut feelings is awesome! That doesn't mean that there won't be room for the "football guys" to make their case but they will need to justify why we're going to draft a shorter than 6' tall QB that has marginal arm strength and a limited play book. No more "but look how exciting he was in college!" draft decisions.

I really hope Haslem has the patience to let this play out...

Right, but the term "Moneyball" isn't about being cheap. The New York Yankees use "Moneyball."

so you're all in on analytics I take it...meh why not the other why has been working so well the last decade and a half

Diam = Anti-Analytics

Grimm = ... I think u may have been asking if he's all in on analytics .. based off his response .... he seems to be leaning that way to me .. ..

DIAM DOES NOT THINK ANALYTICS WILL WORK IN FOOTBALL WHEN IT COMES TO AQUIRING TALENT!!!!!!!

JC

That Depo article has me convinced that we do one of two things.. we either take Wentz at 2 or we trade out of the pick, and my feeling tells me that Moneyball says that we can't have a winning record this year therefore we trade out and stockpile multiple picks which is more valuable than one pick.. knowing that we will have a high pick next April

I would be interested to see what % in the analytical equation is weighted to how drafting a QB at #2 has worked out ...

that has to be a major negative in taking a QB at #2 ...

What I've learned after reading the article is exactly what I had feared all along. It's the money ball man and his baseball experience that has all of the say. The football people have to overwhelmingly convince him of their opinions and conclusions about our FA players and the draft.

That he has the power of the decision making. The most ridiculous possibility of how things should work on an NFL team is our reality.

I've heard posters suggest that analytics would be a tool but not the final say. Now we see that analytics is the final say and football experience and knowledge is the tool.

Maybe people should look at how all of the successful people do it the opposite way? Nah, that makes too much sense and would point in a realistic direction they don't wish to hear nor admit.

Diam.. IMO.. thats a big big big factor in how all this shakes out, I think you have your finger squarely on the decision process that going on...

IMO Hue brings the football argument in favor or not in favor depending on how he see's Wentz.. that rest is the numbers for or against..

I just have to say I find it very worrisome that a guy with basically zero football experience has to be overwhelmingly convinced by football people in terms of football players.

Maybe we'll sign a few outfielders?

I think the guy who wrote that article is stating his opinion, judging the way DePosesta thinks, and assuming what he will do. Too many people on here are taking that guy's opinion as fact. Even to the degree of saying, "DePodesta is saying...", when he didn't. It's the writer of the article who is doing all the saying.

ddub.. thats a fair assessment, the thing is, everyone is trying to figure out what analytics says.. this is the closest thing we have so far

We will never know what the specific numbers say about specific players. Teams guard that information like Fort Knox (I don't really know if Fort Knox is heavily guarded).

We do know how analytics are used in other sports (in general). We can take that information and guess how it will be used with our team (which I think this writer is trying to do).

cfrs.. thats also a fair statement

He's not a guy with zero football experience.

Paul Depodesta: 'He was always a football guy'

This is an example. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT CAME FROM THE BROWNS IT'S JUST TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA.


http://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com...oyer-or-manziel

The Browns are sitting in 4th place in the tight AFC North, but have a winning record at 7-6. It's not unreasonable to think they could still qualify for the playoffs, but their journeyman QB's last two games were among the worst he has played. The team is wondering out loud if starting rookie Johnny Manziel gives them a better chance of winning.

At least one Cleveland "analyst" believes that analytics is pointing toward starting Manziel but that going with Hoyer is a victory for common sense. I'm not sure what analytics this guy might be referring to, though, as Manziel has almost no numbers under his belt to compare. And yet it's a worthwhile question, so let's look at Hoyer's production and compare that with a relevant sample of 1st round rookie production. It might not tell us anything at all, but if rookies tend to do measurably better or worse than how Hoyer has played, it might give the Browns' coaching staff some support for their decision.

I looked at Expected Points Added per Start and Win Probability Added per Start for Hoyer and for all 1st-round rookies since 2009. I chose 2009 simply to get over 5 years worth of QBs, and not for any systematic reason. We're not sure if Manziel will turn out to be a turnover machine or the playmaker the Browns hope he'll be, so I'm going to look at the entire range of rookie performances. This includes Bridgewater, Manuel, Luck, Griffin, Bortles, Luck, Freeman, Tannehill, Locker, Weeden, Newton, Gabbert, Ponder, Bradford, Sanchez, Tebow, Stafford, and Sanchez.

It would be fair to note that this list includes QBs who are dissimilar to Manziel. He'll almost certainly be far more accurate than Tebow and far more mobile than Weeden. But what matters is overall effectiveness, and in that department all we know is that he is drawn from a group not unlike other 1st rounders. You might be tempted to chuckle and think that of course Manziel will be better than Weeden/Tebow/Gabbert/etc. But lots of smart football people were just as confident that Weeden, Tebow, and Gabbert would be better than they were.

Here are the average production numbers limited to games in which a QB had 15 or more active plays.

QB EPA/G WPA/G
Hoyer 0.36 0.07
Rookies 0.69 0.04

The average production in terms of Expected Points Added and Win Probability Added show that the difference between Hoyer and a recent 1st-round rookie is very slight. The rookies appear to have an edge in EPA, while Hoyer has been a little more clutch with slightly higher WPA. That really doesn't tell us much.

Keep in mind that although these numbers are slightly positive, they are well below-average for a modern QB. EPA and WPA were originally modeled to make zero be the average, but it's not for two reasons. First, passing tends to have a consistently higher production value than running, so passers will naturally tend to have positive EPA and WPA. Second, the game has evolved even over the last few years to make offense--both running and passing--easier.

What we're really interested in is the full distribution of performances. We know what we're getting with Hoyer, but a rookie like Manziel is much more of an unknown and as such would come with a much wider variance. So here are how the distributions compare. The first chart is a histogram of EPA/G. It shows the frequency of poor, average, and good games for Hoyer and the reference set of rookies.



As expected, Hoyer's distribution is relatively narrow. He tends to have below-average output, but not too below-average. But take that with a grain of salt. With only 20 starts to evaluate, there's going to be a lot of noise in his distribution. The next chart plots WPA/G in the same way.



Similar results, but you can see Hoyer has had a few more clutch outings than we'd expect given his overall production. Still, not a lot to go on to distinguish Hoyer from an average 1st round rookie, which could just be the insight we're looking for.

There doesn't appear to be much risk going with Manziel over Hoyer if that's where the Browns want to go. By the same token, Hoyer isn't bad enough that there's an obvious upside to going with Manziel either. I suspect they're tempted to go with Manziel, which is why they're making those noises, and knowing that there isn't much downside to that alternative might embolden them. The Browns might want to think of things in terms of risk-reward tradeoffs. If they're going up against a team they are confident their defense can handle well, they should stick with Hoyer. But if they feel like they'll need more production than what Hoyer tends to give them, they should roll the dice with Manziel.

These are the kind of things that they will eventually be looking at.

I say eventually because right now I think they are spending all of their time scrambling to get systems like this in place for the draft. They've only had a few months since Depo was hired.

I didn't really pay attention as to weather Depo actually said the things ... so I went back and looked ..



that looks like he got it from Depo ... now .. 2 questions arise ..

1. when did he get that from Depo? .. was this what he wanted to do in baseball or is this how he wants it to work here ...

2. this may be what Depo wants ... doesn't mean he's going to get it ..

I would agree those two questions bring a TON OF DOUBT to what these "statements" actually mean ....

BUT ... I will go back to what I said yesterday ... WE DIDN'T HIRE AND SPEND THAT KIND OF MONEY ON DEPO TO BE A BIT PLAYER ...

IMO ... before the end of FA next year Haslam will be faced with another decision ... its either gonna be the geeks or the football folks ...

THANKS FOR POINTING OUT THIS MAY NOT BE FROM DEPO ..

Part of what DePodesta does best is get everyone on the same page. My guess is that the traditional football scout and the numbers guys will all be on the same page in no time (if DePodesta is allowed to do his thing).

DePodesta values scouting. DePodesta also values analytics. These two things can work together.

An interesting thought. Not that it means anything, but here are all of the qb's selected #2 in the draft since 1970:

RGIII, Donovan McNabb, Ryan Leaf, Rick Mirer, Bert Jones, Archie Manning.

Looks about 50/50 to me.

In fact they must. The way players are scouted may change with the advent of this new RFID technology but it's still scouting.

I don't understand people who are saying that the "football guys" won't get their say...what do we think they've been running the combine for all these years for? Why bother keeping college stats? On no, those dirty numbers! Scouts should just be able to look at a player and decide whether or not their a hall of famer!

That's a load of crap, analytics has been used since the first caveman pulled the first double switch to get the pitching matchup he wanted in the Stegasaur League. It's simply using numbers to predict outcomes and trying to influence the game based on those predictions. Let's stop acting like it's some new fancy voodoo that none of us can possibly understand.

What in the world would make you think that?

The study was done and Teddy was the choice. Someone stepped in and overruled the study and decided to take Manziel.

The scouts did that? Get outta here w/that BS!!!

I think it was the same guy who is still here and running the show. Johnny made more marketing sense to Jimmy than Teddy did.

For two straight years, people protected Farmer by saying that Haslam made that pick. Now, Farmer is gone and you are saying that it wasn't Jimmy, but the scouts?

WTF????????????????

You guys have no limits on how low you will go.

There's been a lot of revisionist history on here as of late.

They just make crap up, say it a lot, and it becomes the "truth."

The accountability of posters on this board is at an all-time low.

I consider Farmer a "scout."

Bridgewater's bad pro day scared him. He went with what he saw in a limited sample over what the data said.

Ray Farmer says Jimmy didn't make the call.

Banner ordered the study but was let go before the draft. He was the analytics guy.

Farmer is the football guy/"scout". Farmer picked Johnny.

Don't let a little thing like direct quotations get in the way of your revisionist history.

Looking at information and presenting an opinion on it. That's really low. I dunno, maybe I'll cheat on my diet next. Maybe I'll drive 60 in a 55 zone. The horror.

I think Haslam made the JFF pick but I think Farmer made the Gilber pick and I know that he said that we didn't need to take any WR's early. There's plenty of blame to go around.

We did have an analytical report that said Bridgewater was the QB though and a football guy was in the GM role at the time and that pick was not made.

I agree w/that. Just sick of Grimm and others making crap up to further their argument.

I really think we should at least be accountable. Opinions are great, but deliberately trying to mislead people w/lies is flat-out wrong!

It's amazing how many "opinions" are taken as truth on here because of how posters present them.

The other day, farmer was talking about how Pet wouldn't play young players. I didn't blame him.........that LIE was told over and over again last year. I provided contrary factual evidence and he was surprised.

A couple of days ago, Daman posted something about how Pryor had his best year under Hue. I didn't blame him. He read the lie from another poster on this board. I correctly pointed out that Pryor didn't throw a pass while Hue was coaching there.

We used to battle all the time on the boards. It got ugly. Often. We didn't care much about this politically correct BS. However, almost every poster [except for a few] didn't resort to lies to win a stupid argument. Unfortunately, we have a lot of new posters that do it all the time.

People read this stuff. They repeat it. Others believe it. State your opinions all you like. Argue like crazy. Be strong in your stances. But man, be honest!!!! Please?????????? Don't resort to trickery and lies to win a stupid football argument. Show some freaking integrity, people!

The scouts chose Manziel over Teddy...........Pffftttt.......what BS!

ok quick question. where did the info come from that said Jimmy made the JF pick? just asking cuz I can't find it anywhere.

Okay, quick question. I am reading my post that you quoted. I can't find where I said that. Wanna help me out?

I have another quick question for you. Did you research Grimm's claim that scouting chose Manziel over Teddy and analytics did not?

Btw...........before you start backtracking or making new stuff up............there were hundreds and hundreds of posts that defended Farmer by saying that Haslam was the one who made the call to draft Johnny.

Now, I know all of you "objective" posters won't back me up on this one. You will just ignore it like you have in other instances when I am debating these guys..........but hey.....as long as we all know where each other stands. It's all good.

The study was done and Teddy was the choice. Someone stepped in and overruled the study and decided to take Manziel.

The scouts did that? Get outta here w/that BS!!!

I think it was the same guy who is still here and running the show. Johnny made more marketing sense to Jimmy than Teddy did.

For two straight years, people protected Farmer by saying that Haslam made that pick. Now, Farmer is gone and you are saying that it wasn't Jimmy, but the scouts?

WTF????????????????

are you saying now that Jimmy had nothing to do with the pick?

lol now now, I don't make stuff up. that would be childish. I provide direct links when I post...do I not?

Alright.............he is calling me out.

I understand that you guys don't like me, but are you really not going to step-up and say that many posters said over and over and over again how Manziel was Haslam's pick and not Farmer's?

Really guys?

You do post links. I don't think you make stuff up. I wasn't accusing you of that. I just think your interpretations of the written word are off at times.

oh ok well you did say for me to stop making stuff up...just wanted to counter that I do not.

Are you sure you are not confusing what I am saying about other posters w/yourself?

LOL man.......I question your reading skills. Not your character.

Diam, in regards to the 60/40 split... this could very well be a generalized goal. If I can find it, I'll post it later, but DePo also was reported as saying he's been asking a ton of questions about everything as the FA period kicked off. His job is to develop systems and processes on an organizational level. This goes beyond talent assessment and acquisition... this will include things like strength and conditioning, nutrition, and how long they stay on the massage table.

The critics are right: this ISN'T baseball. DePo has a lot of work ahead of him in terms of identifying what kinds of statistical data are relevant, and what isn't. I seriously doubt that within these few months DePo's already developed and instituted the analytics process we'll be using.

Critics also try to point out he has no prior football experience. It doesn't appear that he had all that much in the way of baseball experience before he went to MLB either...

And if we're getting all that RFID data this year, it boggles my mind that a number of posters don't see having one of top minds in statistical analysis as part of our FO as a good thing

IMO too much credit (blame) for the FA season so far is being given to analytics. I do;t think our system is in place, but that doesn't mean decisions can't and aren't being made based upon a philosophy and vision already in place.

yes people have said it was jimmy's pick. that does not make it the truth... if a 100 people told me the sky is orange all day i would still it's blue...I do try to take the things I read from player quotes at face value...assuming they (the players) aren't lying to the general public.

believe me I have looked and looked for anything that would tell me Jimmy made the pick and I cannot find it anywhere and research is a strong suite of mine.

believe me it has zero to do with me liking or not liking you. just so you know.
I just happen to be on the other end of the rainbow on this subject...I do happen to agree with no QB is worth our #2 pick...for me it goes the whole first round...so sometimes I agree and sometimes I do not and try to provide links to back up my stance on it is all.

A number of posters? Care to name them? Seriously..........not all of them, just about 5 of them.

I'll be waiting.

Yes, there was a lot of speculation that the Manziel pick was Haslam's baby, but to be honest Vers, I don't recall what the basis of that rumor was.

I do recall however, that you and I were on the same wave length that IF it was Haslam who made the pick, there were a number of reasons that would make sense to include Manziel being used for the marketing bump that he was sure to bring. At the time Manziel panning out was a crap shoot, but what WAS known was that any team who drafted him was going to make a butt load of $$$.

Like I Said, I know we came up with some fairly reasonable possible motives for Haslam making the call, but I don't remember how Haslam making the all entered the conversation.

Thank you. I don't know who made the pick. I thought those who defended Farmer by saying it was Haslam had a point, but I never thought it was a fact.

Look, I just brought the crap up because Grimm said that the scouts picked Manziel over Teddy. I think that is complete BS! There is absolutely no evidence of that.

lol this is where I got the making stuff up came from

How about anyone who uses the term Moneyball in a disparaging manner in order to discredit DePo...

Also include the "he has no football experience" crowd that tries to use that to discredit him.

Don't tell me that those posters don't exist....

Hmmmmm.........I am trying to think of all of those posters. Can't come up w/many. And I wonder if those posters question Haslam and Sashi more than DePo?

Now.............would you like to play a game of turn-about is fair play?

Well, I for one will admit that I did buy in to the "unified front" that they put on last preseason. I thought that with Farmer's suspension Pet had made a power move and my belief at the time was that it was going to be good for the team...

...yeah... I may have been a bit off with that one lol


As for the scouts, I don't know man. There really isn't much in the way of facts that explain ANYTHING that has happened with this FO lol...

Is that like Ring around the Roses or Duck, Duck, Goose???

But you obviously concede my point that there ARE indeed posters who use the term moneyball and his lack of football "experience" in order to discredit him and what he brings to the table.

Here's my view on the whole moneyball thing: statistical analysis is about identifying data, relevant data, and creating systems and processes where you use that data to improve whatever your goal is: a MLB team, an NFL team, crime reduction, teaching techniques, etc.. My take is that you would hire a guy like DePo to create systems and processes for all of those different fields.

As for Sashi and Haslam... I'm not going to comment on them at this point of my post because Sashi and Haslam are irrelevant to my point about DePo.

Concede? Is this a contest? I don't see a whole lot of posters bashing DePo. I never have. In fact, he is the one guy I praised.

I think the issue that us "negative" posters have is that Haslam still owns the team. To a lesser extent, we might doubt Sashi because he was in charge on negotiating contracts before he got his big promotion. He failed to renegotiate new contracts w/our important players.

But........I think the biggest issue we have is w/Haslam.

Why anyone would trust him is beyond me. His company had to play hundreds of millions of dollars because they ripped people off. The freaking FBI was involved. He has made several promises and broke them all. The Browns have focused mightily on marketing and have been cheap w/their players.

Yet, those of us who question the direction of this team are the crazy ones? LOL man.

Contest? No, just trying to have a conversation, amicable if at all possible.

I don't recall stating that you personally had an issue with DePo. I do recall writing "a number of posters" did and when you asked who, I defined what types of comments I interpreted as being unfair to DePo.

Now if you want to needlessly include yourself with "a number of posters" when it doesn't apply to you, that's 100% on you. I What I don't understand is if you like DePo, why are you being so argumentative over a point that we should likely agree on? Unless you don't think other posters are being as unfair to DePo as I do. If that's the case, simply say so.

I still don't know what Haslam has to do with my points about DePo.

I think Haslam has a lot to do w/everything. And you not mentioning him does not diminish that fact. Haslam has hired and fired numerous people. He says he has a plan. He says he will stick w/it. He then blows things up. That can not be denied.

Thus, as long as Haslam is here..........you can blow smoke up people's butts as long as you want to about DePo and others, but nothing has really changed.

Nothing has changed....what....ONLY constant has been Haslam's ownership...AND it is funny that Dee has been very visible as "co-owner" so that's change also....bottomline is owners do as they wish....GO Browns!!!!

LOL, It was a mess when he bought the team. Clearly, he hasn't succeeded in turning it around.

The race doesn't always go to the swift, but to those who keep on running.

For better or worse, he (Haslam) keeps on trying..

As for the Moneyball thing, I'm not sure I'll ever have a handle on it.

J/C

Maybe people believe Haslam is trying to improve the team because it is in his best interest to produce a winner. He's a successful businessman, not a completely self-destructive individual. Teams make more money when they win. With the salary cap/floor the money spent on players doesn't have all that much disparity between teams over time. He's invested in infrastructure, not been cheap and cut corners in that respect. Sure he's trying to milk all the money he can out of the franchise, but that only makes him want to win more, not less. He's paying multiple coaches and executives at the same time, but somehow that's trying to save money?

Every time you change your GM and Head Coach it's an experiment. We had had ton's of experiments since 1999 and they have all failed. This experiment however is being done under a microscope, and there are so many members of the old guard in the NFL who want to see it fail. IMO this will either fail and make the Browns even a bigger joke than they already are, or we will come out looking brilliant. I am not buying into either result. I am not going to abandon ship and swim away. I am also not going to go down with the ship and drown. I have climbed into the life boat wearing a life jacket. Armed with food, snacks, and beveages, and I am going to sit here like a woman hooked on the soap opera's in the 60's and watch the Cleveland Browns soap opera unfold. Either way it will at least be Entertaining.

...jc...

Concerning how NFL teams handle the decision making process, today most teams use a breakdown of approx. 70% scouts opinion and 30% analytic data.

When it comes to the decision making process of the Cleveland Browns, DePodesta would like that to change those (70/30%s) percentages dramatically with 60% of decision making process "using analytics" and 40% 'scouting'. In other words, Depodesta wants control of the decision making process for the Browns.

I seriously doubt that any football coach is going to be comfortable with that sort of "power grab" by the analytics side. If the moneyball folks don't strike an acceptable balance with the football guys, we could see conflict between the two groups before the season even starts. So how much did analytics play in the decision making process during free agency?

The Browns results during the free agency period would be a clear indication that analytics is already the driving force behind the decision making process of this franchise and DePodesta is in control, with the blessing of Haslam.

The next great test will be the draft..maybe the most critical draft this franchise faced in a long time, picking
at #2 and #32 and near the top of every round and with 3 additional compensatory picks.

If Depodesta is a team player, willing to compromise with the football people, the "overall plan" will have a better chance of success. But I'm not so sure that DePodesta is a team player. If DePodesta was given total control of the decision making process by Haslam, there is no incentive for him to compromise.

If DePodesta isn't big on compromising with Hue and the coaching staff, it might not be long before some of the coaches have had enough of the great experiment and are ready to move on?

Mac, Depo doesn't want the power. He wants to process to reflect the percentages you mention. I don't know if those percentages are correct or not, but that isn't my point.

He is there to see the process through. The entire team is going to be making the decisions on which player they finally choose.

Mac: That is a huge leap there from what is likely the "general understanding". While I don't pretend to say it's not factual (for I don't know), do you have any link(s) from which your assertion is drawn?

peen...whomever is in charge of "the decision making process", will have more control over the decisions that will be be made within the franchise.

DePodesta made his intentions known in the article already posted...the article title was something like 'I thought he was a genius until...

DePo clearly stated that he wanted the decision making process to be based on 60% analytics and 40% scouting, meaning the use of analytics would now carry more weight than scouting.

You can claim that DePo doesn't want more power, but based on free agency, it looks as though DePo got control over the decision making process.

The way I see it, that translates into more power to run the franchise DePodesta's way.

j/c:

Ability to start immediately ‘ideal’ for Browns’ 1st-round pick, but not mandatory

Sashi Brown details philosophy on Sirius XM interview

As he talked about the Browns as a whole Wednesday, executive vice president of football operations Sashi Brown stressed the need for patience and continuity with the plan in place, something Cleveland’s three AFC North rivals have executed at a high level.

The same philosophy carried over when the conversation shifted to the team’s first of 10 picks in the 2016 NFL Draft. At No. 2 overall, immediate expectations will be understandably high but the Browns won’t be caught up in the short-term, Brown said.

“I think ideally you have the best player in the long run that can play the soonest,” Brown said Wednesday in an interview on SiriusXM’s The Opening Drive. “That rarely is the case. We are going to take a long-term view.”

Brown laughed off any prodding about the Browns’ specific plans at No. 2. It’s a spot in the draft that has produced a number of Pro Bowl and even Hall of Fame players, many of whom found immediate success as rookies. One of them, quarterback Robert Griffin III (2012), is one of the newest editions to the Browns’ roster.

Still, even the best players to come off the board at No. 2 have taken time to develop into their full potential. Recently retired wide receiver Calvin Johnson compiled just 756 yards as a rookie, one of two seasons in which he finished with fewer than 1,000 yards. Six-time Pro Bowl quarterback and No. 2 pick in the 1999 NFL Draft Donovan McNabb started just six games as a rookie.

Griffin’s arrival, and the depth at other positions on the roster, provides some assurance the Browns will have some options if the No. 2 pick isn’t quite ready to perform by the season opener.

“We're going to make the decision to select the player to give us the best chance to win over the long-term,” Brown said. “That is the goal here to have that sustained success. We will be patient in developing our players here. Ideally, you'd have a guy that when we line up in September Week 1 is out there playing for us. We will be patient and make that determination depending on who we select.”

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-5/Ability-to-start-immediately-%E2%80%98ideal%E2%80%99-for-Browns%E2%80%99-1st-round-pick-but-not-mandatory/bc0c82d6-07f5-4dd6-a66f-67c7ef45c01a

__________________

His comments could all be a smokescreen, but even still, these comments scream quarterback to me.

mac, you have to read more carefully. Depo doesn't "clearly state" anything in that article. The statements are those of the article writer who is giving his opinion of what Depo wants based on his past knowledge of him. Since Depo has never done any of this in football, the author is taking large liberties in stating what Depo wants and what he will do. He is basing his statements on Depo's past and that was in baseball.

Read it again. I know you strive to be accurate in your comments. Read it again, more carefully. Pay attention to who is doing the talking. It is not Depo. Depo is not quoted for those statements. Depo doesn't clearly state anything in that article.

Here's my link that says Sashi has control of the 53 man roster. Please post your link that says Depo has it.



Here's my link where Hue Jackson calls analytics "The beautiful part of the Cleveland Browns structure"

http://www.scout.com/nfl/browns/story/1632234-hue-on-analytics-the-beautiful-part

Please post your link showing that he is not on board.



My link:
http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...market-1.670630

"We obviously can’t put ourselves in position where we’ve got four starters going in free agency," Brown said. " ... Once you get into in March in free agency, you’re effectively in free agency with your own guys.

"Ideally, we would have gotten these guys signed earlier. We just didn’t. As we look forward to the system we’ll build, where we’ll invest, how we’ll invest, I think all that will unfold moving forward."

Again, sounds like Sashi (not Depo) is in charge and he found it a problem that Farmer let them get to free agency in the first place. That would be the football guy, not analytics, Depo or anything else you feel like making up.

Please post your link showing Depo used analytics to make those decisions.


Again link for wanting total control
Link for not wanting to compromise.

You are just making stuff up and repeating it enough times in hopes that people will start taking it as fact.

I know you're going to struggle finding a link that remotely agrees with what you posted above so I'll help you out with one last link.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/54076588.jpg

Diam was that a presser or an article? Is it posted already on here? I missed it. The article isn't dated April 1st is it? lol I already fell for one...that became fact after the fact. Sad but true.

Dub...was it some crap source that printed the story?

Story has been out for a couple of days and do you see updates, refuting the information in the story?...

What will differentiate DePodesta and Cleveland is extent to which Browns use data science to influence decision-making. DePodesta would like decisions to be informed by 60 percent data, 40 percent scouting. Present-day NFL is more 70 percent scouting and 30 percent data. DePodesta won't just ponder scouts' performance but question their very existence.
link

Hope this helps you out...

There's only David Fleming's opinion on what Depo is thinking with those 70/30 numbers.

There are no quotes from Depo in that whole story.

A story about Depo.

Think about that.

mac, you really need to read it again. Depo is not quoted anywhere in that article, yet, you say, "DEPO CLEARLY STATES..."

All you have to see is that it is the writer of the article making those statements, NOT DEPO. He never heard Depo say those things or he would have quoted him.

You're reading a story somebody wrote about Depo and you bought it hook-line-and-sinker that it is Depo doing the talking. It's not. It's somebody talking about him.

Hope that helps you out.

https://twitter.com/alexmarvez/status/720404041423912961

Can you send that to eotab and ddub? They both insist that Hue has control. What was the wording? Hue is the admiral and the rest are his soldiers..........something like that.

j/c

Debated making its own thread, but I'll put this here.

Philosophy and Tools of a Successful NFL GM

Interesting read. Has me conflicted about how to approach the draft.

Helluva read, good story man.

Thank you. Very good article.

I think this part is pretty important:



Analytics are cool. They are a tool. But, you don't have to go to school to know that treating people fairly is the best rule.

Interview with Parcells about DePodesta:

https://twitter.com/SiriusXMNFL/status/720425800705544192

Thanks for the link. The '5 tool baseball player' reference sheds a little more light on how they are developing their analytical approach.

DePodesta is not a person who is only interested in his way. He went from being the "computer guy" to being a scout that was out watching high school players in person. This is a different type of dude.

A driven individual. Might even revolutionize the healthcare industry as well.

Of the three top guys..........Jimmy, Sashi, and DePo...........the latter is the one guy who gives me a ray of hope.

I like that he talked to a guy like Parcells. That's smart. I think he was trying to equate baseball's 5-tool players w/a similar rating system for football players. Parcells would be a good guy to ask.

I think Hue is okay. He's bright. It's his mouth and emotions that concern me a bit. But, I think he was a good hire. I just worry he will take the fall for the poor performance of the team.

It's the other two guys who worry me. Jimmy and Sashi. Last year's moves smell like moves Sashi would make. Skrine and Sheard. Not respecting Gipson. Marketing over player evaluation. And then we have Haslam. A known cheat. A guy who puts more emphasis on marketing/making money than on winning. Always w/a new plan and asking for patience. LOL..........what a joke.

I was thinking it would be grand if he went to jail. Perhaps DePo could right the ship while Jimmy was incarcerated???????????

I agree with most of your post besides one little detail. I don't know why Sashi Brown would be interested in marketing. That reeks of Alex Scheiner (who is no longer with the team).

Scheiner for sure. He really helped improve the value of the team.

I could be wrong about the Sashi/marketing thing. I said it mainly because Scheiner is gone, the Columbus move that would rip off tax payers, the failure to negotiate new contracts w/our free agents, him being a lawyer rather than a football guy, and some of his comments thus far.

But, my conclusions are just opinions. Not factual.

There's an interesting article on what Mark Shapiro is doing with the Blue Jays that correlates to what the Browns are attempting to mimic with their new strength and conditioning program.

Seems to fit along the analytics approach of what DePodesta is implementing. I'm not sure if many are aware, buy apparently, Haslam offered Mark Shapiro the position last year to run the Browns.

I'll post in that thread for those interested.

It is interesting that the Columbus stuff died around the same time Scheiner got bounced.

Post it. More information is good.

Not trying to argue w/you, because you have been cool, but I think it died because of the public and media backlash.

Baseball and basketball teams are on the cutting edge of technology when it comes to keeping their players healthy (here is a great article on the Pirates, http://grantland.com/the-triangle/pittsburgh-pirates-healthy-season-playoff-chances-future-impact/).

I don't see as many people praising football teams for the same thing.

I think it died because Urban was worried about the stink rubbing off.

It's a threat to the good old boys club that runs rampant in the NFL.

deleted

Posted in 'strength and conditioning' thread. Again, it related to Mark Shapiro's approach with the the Blue Jays, but can't help believe this is the approach the Browns are taking with all the changes made in this area.

Enjoy the read.

Thanks.

What?

What?

I am not saying this in a confrontational manner, but man..........that makes no sense to me. I think the old boys want to win. They will explore every opportunity to win. It's not about a club. This isn't Augusta, Jack.

I decided I didn't want to get into it.

It was a joke.

Basically saying no one does anything in Columbus w/o Urban Meyer's approval, and he only associates with winners.

Oh............I was wondering why my comments on DePo, Sashi, and Haslam pissed you off.

It was the comment about Hue, right?

Sorry bro..........you guys have ZERO proof that Hue is in charge. I provided quotes from Sashi himself that said it was his call. Of course, tab called me a coward for posting an article. There, you are NOW "into it."

Oh.............I'm a little slow tonight.

"Tonight."

Thanks cfrs. It's always uplifting to know I have so many friends on here.

Jokes are okay too.

You forgot the comma after jokes.

I don't take it as confrontational.

I say it's a "threat to the good old boys club" in the sense, not of ownership, but at the executive and coaching level.

If this were to work, analytics based that is, you won't see guys like Holmgren, as an easy example, hiring guys like Pat Shurmur and his other cronies.

The NFL is a small world as far as hirings go, it's a club that's tough to break into too. But, once you're in, you're typically in. How many times has Rob Ryan undeservedly gotten jobs? Hell, Ray Farmer last year hired old pal and former mentor Bill Kuharic.

There's countless examples of this throughout the NFL, but I won't bore you with them all as I'm sure you get my take by now.

Bottom line, change is a threat to the status quo.

I am not criticizing you for your opinion. Opinions are good and this has been a respectful conversation. I am thankful for that.

I disagree w/you because I think winning is paramount. I think teams will do whatever they can to gain any type of advantage. I think they are smarter than many fans give them credit for. I think they do what works, not because they are traditional thoughts, but because they work.

Changes are made all the time. Do you remember when passing the ball was likened to failure? Woody Hayes said that 3 things can happen when you pass the ball and two of them are bad. Now look.......I am not sure about this, but I think every team in the league passes the ball more than they run it. [Someone look that up and correct me if I am wrong] but even if it isn't EVERY team.......it surely is most teams. The game evolves. Philosophies change. I don't buy into the "old boys network" jargon.

I think that is more in the lines of wishful thinking by Brown's fans that perhaps we finally have an advantage.

Again, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong and you could be right. Just enjoying our conversation w/out all the usual BS.

I'm not certain we are even disagreeing. We seems to agree on 'out with the old and in with the new'. The only difference of opinion seems to be who in the NFL league ranks will have their ass chapped by the new approach (should it be proven successful).

So now that I'm into it...

I've never once said Hue is in charge. I have said he will/is/does play a major role which I believe is true.



I have given my opinion many times on Sashi and the 53. I don't need a link to him saying he's responsible for the 53, I've posted them myself. You talking to me like I never knew that?

Lastly, I'm uncertain why you bring people into a conversation, naming names, stating their opinion for them. I've seen you do this to many others. You went nuts with it on one of the other current threads naming four or five people.

I'm not a psychologist, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night. It looks to me you do that as a means to ridicule people who aren't even currently in the conversation but whose views you disagree with.



Did something you said about that group piss me off? Did I make a comment in that regard?

I want you to think about that for a moment and apply it to many people.......including yourself.

I don't recall anyone but you doing that.

I'm talking about naming people in your posts who are not currently part of the conversation, stating their opinions and then ridiculing them to others.

mac,

in regards to the 60/40 vs. 70/30 split... I'm curious to know if you or any other Dawgs know where the 60/40 comes from? Is that the % that was developed for baseball and basketball? I think understanding where those numbers come from would give us a pretty good insight as to how married he is to that end goal AND if it might actually be something to consider if we can get past the initial bad taste in our mouths.

FWIW, my interpretation of that 60/40 is that it would be reflective of a much more disciplined scouting process. I think the data aspect of things will provide a solid, objective basis that will let us recognize trends that we might be able to take advantage of. But I also think it still recognizes the need for the subjective observations of scouts and some room for the intangibles. For example: how often do we talk about players who's 40 yrd time isn't great, but they are known for good "game day" speed? Or the guys who may not look great in practice for whatever reason, but look great on Sundays?

When I look at the last several drafts, one of the things that sticks out to me is that while we've consistently crapped the bed on our 1st and many 2nd Rd picks.. we haven't done all that bad in the later rounds and with UDFA's. To me it looks like heading in to Draft Day we have a plan (or system)... but for whatever reason our GM's consistently get caught up trying to make a splash and outsmart everyone else... when all they end up doing is outsmarting themselves. Then, after the "important" rounds, it's like they go home and leave it to the underlings, who revert to following the plan.

I could be reaching, but I just thought it might be a possibility.

I cannot believe this was not posted in this thread.

The author talks about this front office making the decision to not resign any of our own free agents..






Cleveland Browns must stop talking about importance of continuity and start showing us they're capable of it: Tom Reed

By Tom Reed, Cleveland.com
Email the author | Follow on Twitter
on April 13, 2016 at 5:24 PM, updated April 13, 2016 at 7:38 PM

BEREA, Ohio – The Browns executive who failed to re-sign any of the team's three most prominent free agents under age 30 spoke on national satellite radio Wednesday and said "our biggest barrier to success is a lack of continuity."

OK, then.

This isn't meant to single out head of football operations Sashi Brown, who either declined or was unable to retain right tackle Mitchell Schwartz, receiver Travis Benjamin or safety Tashaun Gipson. The Browns are undertaking a massive rebuild. We get it. It's why they cut ties with older players such as linebacker Karlos Dansby, safety Donte Whitner and allowed three-time Pro Bowl center Alex Mack to walk.

But not keeping Schwartz and Benjamin, who were coming off their best seasons, and Gipson, one year removed from the Pro Bowl, is the antithesis of continuity.

"I think it's tremendously important," Brown said when asked about continuity during a wide-ranging interview on SiriusXM NFL Radio. "One of the quickest ways to be bad for a long time is to keep making changes in this league.

"Success isn't built overnight. I think the teams we all admire around the league have had that continuity that is a little bit circular. But I absolutely think that Jimmy and Dee (Haslam) understand the importance of continuity."

Browns' decision makers have been uttering similar comments for years only to be shown the door after a season or two. Jimmy Haslam, a former Steelers minority owner, has been espousing the virtues of continuity since his 2012 arrival. He's on his fourth head coach and front office.

It makes you wonder if anyone in Berea knows the actual definition of continuity. You know how people sometimes get words confused. Stalagmite or stalactite? Concave or convex?

Here's Merriam-Webster's simple definition of continuity: "the quality of something that does not stop or change as time passes: a continuous quality."

Synonyms: Pittsburgh Steelers, Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals.

Antonyms: Cleveland Browns.

OK, that last part isn't in the dictionary, but Brown referenced all three AFC North rivals during his interview when asked about their stability:

"We understand our biggest, in the division, our biggest barrier to success is a lack of continuity."

It's the same executive who prior to the start of free agency said: "It's important that we keep our own. It sends the right message to the locker room when you reward guys who do it the right way ... "

It goes beyond not re-signing Schwartz, Benjamin and Gipson, who never caused the franchise grief and epitomized doing it "the right way." This has been going on for years – new regimes not wanting building blocks of predecessors on their roster. It's how homegrown talent like T.J. Ward and Buster Skrine wind up on other teams.

It all gets back to the skewed definition of continuity. Each group thinks it starts on their watch.

"(The Haslams) want us to build a system here, a Browns' way," Brown said. "We will all be pushing toward that – Paul DePodesta, myself and others – are truly going to build a system. ... There is a real commitment from the top down here that's sustainable. We want that to be a competitive advantage of ours in time and I'm looking forward to seeing that grass grow, so to speak."

What is a Browns' way? One of the reasons the franchise has been so poor in the draft is the men running it don't get time to establish a system or a core philosophy.

Look at how the Bengals reversed their fortunes after a dreadful four-win season under Marvin Lewis in 2010. Many expected Mike Brown to make a coaching change. Yahoo reported that Lewis' friends urged him to leave the dysfunctional franchise. Instead, owner and coach learned from previous mistakes and built an organization that's made five straight trips to the playoffs.

In Oakland, it would have been easy for the Raiders to fire general manger Reggie McKenzie after a pair of 4-12 years. The Raiders and Browns had been almost identical franchises for the previous decade – a revolving door of front offices, coaches and quarterbacks. Everything changed in the 2014 draft as McKenzie landed edge rusher Khalil Mack and quarterback Derek Carr – players whom the Browns passed on.

Cleveland, meanwhile, was in the middle of another front-office change. Outgoing executive Joe Banner, who should never have been fired after one year, had commissioned an analytical quarterback study whose findings were essentially: Anybody but Johnny Manziel. We all know how that turned out.

Browns fans hate reliving past failures, but they often serve as a powerful teacher. Is there ever a time to fire a coach or a GM after a short stint? Of course. Sometimes change is beneficial, but when you make a habit of it, when it becomes systematic, then you invite chaos and instability.

That, unfortunately, has been the Browns' way.

The concept of continuity is like saying you want to keep your kids or your country safe. Who isn't in favor of the sentiment? But it's how you go about achieving goals that matters. Are you willing to weather rough patches? Are you willing to pay more money to keep your free agents?

The Haslams need to be patient with DePodesta and Brown as they take a deep dive into analytics. They must realize coach Hue Jackson will absorb some brutal seasons as the organization restocks the roster.

The Browns need to take a quarterback with the No. 2 pick and develop him. They must surround Jared Goff or Carson Wentz with talent acquired through high picks over the next few seasons. Establish a plan and stick to it.

And, before he's either traded or retires, decision makers should talk to left tackle Joe Thomas and let him explain the meaning of continuity and the problems caused by not adhering to it. Nobody in the franchise understands or expresses the damage caused by constant turnover better than No. 73. He's seen it first-hand for nine years. JT, starting over:

When the conversation ends, the Browns should declare a moratorium on talk of continuity. We've heard it all before. Let's see it in action.

link

What is a Browns' way? One of the reasons the franchise has been so poor in the draft is the men running it don't get time to establish a system or a core philosophy.

This has been obviously the biggest criticism of this organization under Haslam. I've been one to echo it. But now looking back and seeing things as whole, a statement like this one I think assumes we've had men that have had a coherent system and philosophy to establish in the first place.

-In light of reports about Norv having rather harsh words for the FO at the end of that season because they weren't providing him what he needed on offense (particularly the RB's IIRC), and Chud basically being blind sided by the TRich trade, that doesn't sound like a group of men trying to establish the same system and philosophy.

-Under Pet... would you REALLY want O'Neill to have stuck around to continue to establish our defensive philosophy??? I don't think so lol

Do we know if we've finally got a coach and FO on the same page? I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Can you highlight or quote the parts you are referring to? I don't seem to find anything about the FO making the decision to no resign any of outr own free agents.

Did we really want to give someone like Ray Farmer time to establish a core at the pace he was on? I don't even want to think the free agents he would've signed and the numbers involved. Nor do I want to think about another Gilbert/Manziel drafting and even Shelton and Irving also, truly, showed no reasons to be first round selections.

We need to get real football people in here, then give them the time. Giving Ray Farmer time would've resulted in a larger uphill battle for the next guy(s) in line to have to overcome. His track record was proven to be large amounts of crap.

Sashi Brown: Lack of continuity has been biggest barrier to success

Posted by Josh Alper on April 14, 2016, 8:06 AM EDT
link

In what’s become a frequent sequence of events, the Browns ended the 2015 season and then made sweeping changes to their front office and coaching staff.

Coaches, executives, systems and players have come and gone frequently since the Browns rejoined the league in 1999 and the only constant has been that the team keeps on losing. Executive vice president of football operations Sashi Brown would like to see a different kind of consistency from the organization.

During an appearance on Sirius XM NFL Radio with Bob Papa and Solomon Wilcots, Brown referred to the stability in Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Cincinnati and the results that have come for those teams as the antithesis to what’s gone on in Cleveland.

“I think it’s tremendously important,” Brown said. “One of the quickest ways to be bad for a long time is to keep making changes in this league. Success isn’t built overnight. I think the teams we all admire around the league have had that continuity that is a little bit circular. But I absolutely think that [owners] Jimmy and Dee [Haslam] understand the importance of continuity. We understand our biggest, in the division, our biggest barrier to success is a lack of continuity.”

Brown also talked about the Haslams wanting to build a system of their own, which are familiar words when a new regime takes over even if it explains why the idea of continuity didn’t lead to holding onto many veterans in free agency. That may not be a bad thing given the on-field results in Cleveland, but it remains to be seen if the Browns will have a reason or the resolve to stay the course.

I must be missing something because I don't see where the FO before hand made a decision to not keep those guys...the writer wrote we "let Mack walk" we did no such thing...we offered Mack a really decent contract and he decided it was time to leave... in light of last season we had to make some changes. I think we can all agree on that point,was way to dysfunctional. I am really interested on what we do in the draft and after before I can make any real judgement on our current FO and company

So how do you like the Browns front office now...the Rams made a trade with the Titans for the #1 pick...and the Browns lose their shot at the best QB on the board.

I'm sure analytics told the Browns that the chances of another team moving to #1 were 7 million to 1.

idk who is the #1 QB? that's subjective. and right now my feelings towards our current FO our in neutral and waiting to see what all they do before I put my thoughts together on them...the only thing I would have changed so far is Schwartz that's it.

Wait, what kind of crazy thinking is that? Seriously Mac. How did the Browns become the bad guy because the Titans Fleeced the Rams?

Is there a QB worth the #1 pick? I don't think so. Maybe the Rams do, But I can't find many folks thinking that.

What's it got to do with the Browns? Man you will take any situation and turn it into a Hate comment about the Browns FO. wow.

Make no mistake, we are going to hear our front office claim they were not looking to draft a QB...and that is a bunch of BS to cover up the front offices lack of reality within the NFL.

I expect many to choke down the excuses and continue to see the lawyer run Browns front office as the best thing since wheaties.

it's not our FO's fault the Rams leap frogged us to #1 spot if that's what your implying. I would not go from 2 to 1 just for one of those QB's neither in my opinion is worth even a top 20 pick. but that's just my opinion on it.

The Browns should have traded up...

101...and we will find out what your opinion is worth when Wentz comes off the board first.

Why? Who would you take with the first pick?

What would you have given up to acquire the first pick, too? We need all our draft picks because we have an abundance of holes to fill.

This goes great with my ideal draft.

WIth one of Wentz/Goff gone, we can get our "king's ransom" trading down several spots and drafting Paxton Lynch.

The Browns needed a franchise QB more than any team in the NFL.

The owner comments about getting your QB as one of the keys to success.

The owner comments about the Manziel mess, saying we have the #2 pick...

The Browns just didn't think any team would make such a trade to get the #1 QB.

Hey, maybe the Rams screwup and take Goff...could the Browns be that lucky?...NO WAY...Wentz was the top QB.

let them have Wentz then...by all accounts if they are targeting a QB it's Goff...still wouldn't grab a QB that high anyway...better to get Ramsey, Jack, that Buckner fella, then grab the best WR if the value is there

Even more! The price for the #2 overall pick just went up!

Yeah because we are so close to the Superbowl right now we can waste a few picks.

LB..what ever it took, but in Jan I said the Browns should do what they can to move to #1. It should have been done early and would have cost more than some what to spend.

But this is second time in recent years that the Browns have seen their a shot at a franchise QB missed when another team leap frogged them, trading up in the draft.

J/C

Could it be that the Rams, now moving to California, take Goff - the kid who just finished his college ball in California?

Sashi must be talking about how Haslam should develop continuity by not firing him in a year or two, because he sure doesn't practice what he preaches. He let four of our better players walk in free agency. That is the antithesis of "continuity."




Truth. And the issue is that Jimmy Haslam is still the owner. He talks about continuity, but he panics and blows things up much too early.




More truth.

101,,,you can expect to hear the front office to leak such a claim to the media.

Do you believe the Rams moved up to take Goff?

Goff or Wentz makes no difference to me neither is worth a pick that high...again it's just my opinion on it...sure they moved up to take one or the other no doubts there mac.

CB...I'm fairly certain that Wentz will be their pick.

Maybe you missed this article that came out yesterday? You seem to be acting very presumptuous, but that's your provocative.

From the article:

Why it will be Jared Goff, not Carson Wentz, going to Browns at No. 2

JASON LA CANFORA
CBS Sports NFL Insider

I believe Jared Goff will be drafted before Carson Wentz, barring a trade of the first-overall pick. And if new Cleveland Browns offensive coordinator Pep Hamilton gets his way, it will be Goff and not Wentz who that team uses with the second overall selection.

Article

Just need to find that taker =)

I agree.

I think the trade is actually good news for the Browns. Trading down is the way to go.

Adam Scheffer Verified account
@AdamSchefter
Today's trade was big win for Cleveland; its leverage for No. 2 pick went way up. Anyone who wants next QB now needs to pay up to Cleveland.

Tweet

The Eagles, 49ers, Broncos, Bills, Jets, Texans, and probably a few more are all calling us now. Not only is there a drop at QB after Goff, but BPA is now available at pick #2.

Dude, you should also post this on trade thread you started in the Draft forum. I'm sure that thread is getting a lot of views.

Posted.

Really... who wants the best LT, the best edge rusher, the best athlete or the or one of the two best QB's in the draft... you all come down and talk to us...

this is great news.

milk...so one article convinces you that Goff is the best QB in this draft?...let's see if the Rams take Goff.

If the Browns' goal was to finally land their franchise QB...this trade is not good news.

mac, this news is actually great news for the Browns. We can now trade down and get more value than we would have before the trade went down.

We have a ton of needs at multiple positions. This could be a great thing for the Browns.

Now, we just gotta hope we do trade down and then [and this is the scary part] actually make good picks.

I'm thrilled by this trade.

Don't ask me, ask Mac. He's the one who's saying we should have moved up to the #1 pick. I think that would have been stupid.

Actually Fisher might want the QB that is ready to play sooner. That would be Goff.

It doesn't matter though, because teams will be willing to pay more for the QB that's left on the board than the Browns could refuse to stay pat and draft him.

yep.

Don't get all Big Brained!

I am not sure I would want to trade down. I can see why we would as you said more picks to fill more holes, hard to ague with that line of thinking. But for me I would love to Ramsey or Jack or Buckner or Bosa tho...

"If" is a big word. You have no idea what they want to do in the first round.You are just assuming they wanted to go QB. You may be right, but you don't know who they wanted. If they do go QB, they still have the choice of either Goff or Wentz.

Do you understand that leaves that LT that everyone is talking about there for us to take. And now that #1 is clearly gone, that makes our #2 pick way more valuable.

Frankly, not doing anything to get the #1 pick is smart. We actually in a better position at this moment.

Mac, my gut tells me they're taking Goff at #1, if that is the case and "if" we take Wentz...then how would your perception of FO be?

LOL He'll probably say we "Settled" for Wentz. LOL

You might still be able to do that...

Say the Broncos trade for Kaep..

Then the 49ers give up the #7, #37 and 2017 1st and 3rd

Then it goes like this:
#1 LA Goff/Wentz
#2 49ers Wentz/Goff
#3 SD Laremy Tunsil
#4 Dal
#5 Jax
#6 Bal
#7 Cleveland Browns...One of those 4 will still be on the board.

Is there really a consensus between Ramsey, Jack Buckner and Bosa?

I personally want Buckner, but I don't see his name much on these boards...I think he would elevate the defense more, effecting both the run and pass rush next to Shelton.

But, is there one of those 4 names you DON'T want? I have seen all of those names mentioned at #2 overall...what if you got another high 2nd rounder this year, a first rounder next year and also got one of those 4 names that were being mentioned at #2?

Heck, for that matter, the Cowboys could decide to take Elliot (weirder things have happened) and the Ravens could decide they like Ronnie Stanley...That would leave the Jaguars taking one of the 4 and the Browns still having the choice between 3 others...

A lot could happen in this draft, having the #7 overall pick could be a great thing if they can pick up additional players to help this team progress.

If Jimmy Haslam was any kind visionary owner, he would have established some core principles for his franchise to follow....

Haslam keeps talking about "building the Browns via the draft", but he lets every front office he hires kick players to the curb, just because those players were not drafted by "that" front office.

Haslam said on day one that he wanted to build the Browns via the draft in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and again this year...based on the conduct of the present front office, building the Browns via the draft starts on March 28, 2016.

If building your team via the draft is a core principle of the Browns that Haslam wants to follow, it should have started from day one in 2012...Haslam just wasted 4 seasons, not following his own principles.

Sash was 100% correct saying "It's important that we keep our own. It sends the right message to the locker room when you reward guys who do it the right way ... "

....so why didn't Sashi follow his own stated principle for keeping players the Browns drafted?

I get the feeling that Haslam's "building the Browns via the draft" and Sashi's "It's important that we keep our own."...that is just BS that is fed to the media and fans. Something else seems to be driving the decision making processes of this franchise.

Oh for goodness sakes.. ONE MORE TIME:

Mack got an offer from us and took one offered by Atlanta. he wanted out.

Benji had his best season last year, love to have him, but not at the money he got

Gipson had a good year and then a down year. And he got a boat load of money.

Schwartz is the only one I can find fault with. They should have been able to retain him. I'm not sure what happened.

Reed is just stoking the fire.

101...and my gut tells me you are wrong.

The Rams did not give up all those draft picks to take Goff.

You get exasperated w/mac, yet you only state opinions on all those players.

Saying it over and over and over again does not make it true.

Here is the ONE thing we know to be true. All those players are gone!

Boy Howdy! There's a question I've never heard asked before.

It contains nothing new - simply a rehash...

Oooops, sorry ddubia. Not on the same page here. My bad...

I am with ya, I posted several times that 3 out of the 4 FA's wanted to play for another team. with links of said players stating so.

Berkeley is 375 miles away from Los Angeles.

I've always preferred Goff to Wentz. The article indicates the Browns may prefer Goff to Wentz as well.

daman...did you read the article?

Your response would indicate you did not.

You may not like what the writer (Reed) had to say, but he is bringing up some of the very points I have been making concerning the Browns front office.

Reed is simply telling the truth about how the Browns are being operated, questioning Sashi in particular...over his comments "It's important that we keep our own."...
then allowing all of the Browns free agents to leave.

The claims of this franchise, building via the draft/retaining your own..those claims are not backed up by the franchise.

Something else is driving the decision making process of this franchise.

I would take a gentleman's bet on that. if my take on it is right, would your stance on the FO change at all?

His take on the FO is set in stone.

The only thing that will change is the reasons he looks for to support it.

Howdy Boy! Dodging the question by attacking the poster is something I have never seen before.

Howdy partner! I do believe there are pages and pages of posts that argue for and against why the players are no longer here...I would have to say that is what he meant with his post. shoot you and I went back and forth for a couple of hours on the very same topic lol

I wasn't dodging anything. I've answered to that question several times.

I know it was a snarky comment, I meant that. But it was not an attack.

Yes, you are an angel.

101...no, my stance on this front office is not about to change based on this latest (draft) situation, therefore my opinion of them is not going to change if the Rams take Goff.

I judge this front office on their actions..or lack of action. If I find out through a legit source that Sashi did make a "serious attempt/offer" to the Titans, to trade up to secure the #1 pick...then my opinion might start to change.

I will accept your gentleman's bet and admit to be wrong, if I'm wrong...Wentz will be drafted by the Rams.

Sashi just "let them walk"?

For someone who is hating on posters for passing off "opinion as fact" you sure as hell don't adhere to your own requests.

I'd take that hair even though it is ginger. (No offense to any red-heads out there. It would just look odd against my Hunky skintone. lol But I'd take it over the thin, balding crop of white hair I'm sporting now).

I'll show you what an attack is the next time you lay into someone.

Keep it up and it will be you.

I've been socked in the eye, I made it through that ok.

I know it's not what you want to hear. You agree with just about anything that puts this FO in a bad light.

But the fact is, while saying it over and over again doesn't make it true, it doesn't make it untrue either.

Never implied that it did. I just couldn't understand your exasperation when all you had to go on was opinion. That's all.

fair enough Mac...here is to hoping we get Tunsil or Ramsey at this point.

That's all we needed to see.

Bismarck is 1587 miles away.

And has about the same relationship as the Bay Area does to Los Angeles.

I guess that means the Browns are taking Cardale.

I think there is more than opinion in there..

But honestly, I don't think talking to you about it is going to lead to any resolution.

So you would of traded a 1st and 2 2nds to move up one spot?

failed to retain.. same thing... so far the guy has failed at contract negotiations for the last 2 years at least. jmo

Yeah, I don't get this fascination w/the phrase....."let them walk," unless of course, it's just Brownie being Brownie.

Let them walk implies we did not attempt to keep the players.

Here we go again Round 3

results are the same

I would hope that winning would change it as well...?

They are most definitely not the same thing. The result might be, but certainly not the intent.

Is this a discriminatory comment about color...only masked? Or an attempt to make a homophobic slur since you've called the Brownie mascot gay? I mean, you already called me a women in attempt to be derogatory....you just covering all the loose ends now?

Yup, but language matters.

results matter more....

Not when talking about the reasoning in the players leaving.

Yes should have been" refuse to over pay"

yea... because we are in cap hell.....

Nope you set a value to something..."this is what I'm willing to pay for it" just because you have more money doesn't make that value increase.

If there was a $2 item and you had $100 would you pay $10 for it?

failed to retain.. same thing... so far the guy has failed at contract negotiations for the last 2 years at least. jmo [/quote
]
not even close to same thing

If you were at an auction, and there was an item that you valued at a certain amount, and someone out bid you, would you just immediately give up? Or would you reevaluate your price?

Let's put it in terms you'll understand...

You go into your beverage stare for your daily 12 pack the store owner knows you got a raise so raises the price of your 12 to $40 do you pay the money or look else where?

I go to Kroger to buy 10 packs of Monster for 15.99


I KNOW that Walmart has it cheaper, but Walmart is half an hour away, while Kroger is two blocks away..

The difference is I'm paying more knowing I'm getting the same exact thing, I valued time over a few bucks.

You can't, in Sports, say you'll be able to get the exact same thing aomewhere else.. Because people are not beverages.

If said item is the final piece to complete the set and are few and far between you re evaluate if not and you feel you can get one later at your price you stick to your guns.

They are not an auction item either but you went that direction.

no actually I would think that would be foolish...if we are doing the analogy thingy...I wouldn't pay than $1299 for a 1995 dodge neon in good shape...if I was outbid and someone paid $3000 for it, I would not up my bid to $3001 for the car.

Ew....you drink Monster?

I was replying more to YTown that FA is an Auction, and that when you put a value on a player, and someone outbids you, you have to reevaluate or walk away.. Its not a strict "this is the price of this item" situation.

slam dunk, my logic is undeniable.


being funny there so as not to be taken to heart lol

What if they bid #1300?

All day, every day, Green only.

Thank deployment for that.

j/c:

You don't have to worry about the car your bidding on's feelings.

lol funny but really we can go back and forth with the "if's" all day long...or did you mean hashtag1300?? lol jk

My phone currently doesn't want to let me click the edit button.

A prudent team would first do a dollar to pound conversion.

lol just teasing you...why does it feel like I am in Diggstown?

never get to that if you dont save the pieces to start with

if you're talking about the four "big" names that left 3 out of those four wanted to play somewhere else...idk about you but I wouldn't throw huge amounts of money to players that don't want to be here. meaning they weren't going to resign with us anyway

"Wanted to play somewhere else."

yup meaning they no longer wanted to be in Cleveland is my point...pretty cut and dry to me...not sure what the mystery is

The mystery is in the players never saying anything remotely close to, "I don't want to play in Cleveland."

nope I think not "i want to play somewhere else to win" is I no longer wanted to be a Brown. what do you think this means? "I wanted to be a Jaguar to have a chance to win" ...means I want out of Cleveland....does it not? there really is no other interpretation of those statements...

They stated they wanted to win...how remotely close is Cleveland to that?

Yeah, the Jags is a much better option to win.

Stating you want to win and stating you want to leave a specific city are two very different things.

Answer the man's question Mac, what would you say about the FO if Wentz is still there at #2 and we get him?

Depends on the city

Lots of guys in San Francisco wanted to retire last year.

They didn't have to insert the "rather than play for the 49ers" part.

I don't know if you are joking or not, but that is a completely different circumstance.

j/c

I can't seriously believe that we are "debating" the interpretation of "letting them walk" and "want to win".It should be self-evident...

Their first-round pick in 2009, Mack has deep roots in Cleveland and has said he'd like to be back. Like Joe Thomas, Mack met with Hue Jackson at the Super Bowl and came away impressed, a source said. He respects Jackson, likes him as a person and thinks he's a fantastic coach.

What's more, Mack might have a chance to block for fellow Cal star Jared Goff, whom the Browns are considering drafting with the No. 2 overall pick.

The addition of Jackson and Goff -- or another top quarterback prospect such as Carson Wentz of North Dakota State or Paxton Lynch of Memphis -- would likely be as appealing to Mack as it is to Thomas, who said last week "the future is really bright for the Cleveland Browns" as long as they pick the right quarterback.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/02/why_alex_mack_will_likely_opt.html

Gipson, 25, has repeatedly stated his desire to re-sign with the Browns.
“I truly love being here,” he said on Jan. 4, the day after the season finale. “I truly love the city, and I want to be a part of it, man, when we go from worst to first. I want to be a part of that when it happens. But, you know, a lot of things go into this free agency, man, and we’ll see how the chips fall.”

http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/donte-...gipson-1.665442

That's not fair. Go back to the quotes that say something else.



Here's what I can't believe, how anyone can take any quotes as gospel. Players are all taught to toe the company line when they're with a team. If they're with this team they want to be here. If they're with that team they're glad they are now there.

Seldom do players heavily dis on the team they're currently on. It's too much like dissing on their teammates, their friends. When they switch teams they have new teammates and surely don't want to dis on them. Regarding their old team, those players were their teammates, their friends. They really don't want to dis on them either.

The point is, don't hold those guys to a dissection of their quotes. The things they say are said with their teammates in mind. If they've moved then it's with both old and new teammates in mind. The only way you're going to get an honest, what's really going on in their mind statement is to be a friend or family member, certainly not a reporter.

What you get is, "I want to stay here", before FA and, "I'm glad I'm on this new team", after FA. It's only common sense because it's the only way to handle it in the media.

So all this dissecting their words claiming that we know what is in their hearts and minds by what we read in their public words is all just mental masturbation and a waste of time.

A huge waste of time.

[/thread]

pblack there aren't very many players that will say that they don't want to be back before they leave their team. It's just bad business. The agent wants every team that he talks to think that it's going to take their best offer to pull them away.

In Mack's case, he was already under contract and chose to exercise his option to terminate it. Which is understandable, because he could get more money. However the Browns did offer him more money than the Falcons did. The Falcons offered more guaranteed money. He made the choice to pick the guaranteed money over his home team.

Gipson was mentioned as being one foot out of the door ever since he was tendered. In his own words in your quote above:

"But, you know, a lot of things go into this free agency, man, and we’ll see how the chips fall."

With most players it's whoever offers the most money and I don't blame them one bit for it.

http://articles.philly.com/1992-11-11/sp...s-norman-braman

Reggie White insists he doesn't want to take the money and run.

If, as expected, he becomes an unrestricted free agent after this season, he says he doesn't want to shuffle off to Buffalo or waltz on down to Washington or mamba to Miami.

He says, all things being equal, he'd rather stay right here in Philadelphia.

ok can't believe I have to do this all over again ...but be right back lol

Browns notebook: Chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta picks brain of Bill Parcells


By Nate Ulrich
Beacon Journal sports writer
April 14, 2016 - 03:26 PM

As Paul DePodesta transitions from 20-year Major League Baseball executive of Moneyball fame to chief strategy officer of the Browns, he’s seeking every bit of knowledge he can obtain about the NFL.

So the analytics guru recently picked the brain of Pro Football Hall of Fame coach Bill Parcells at his home in Jupiter, Fla.

In an interview Wednesday night with SiriusXM NFL Radio, Parcells revealed he talked to DePodesta for five or six hours.

“I found the guy to be very interesting,” Parcells said. “Of course, it was a little something new to me, and he was looking for information from me as well. But I was interested to hear what he had to say and kind of what the philosophy that he brought was going to be comprised of.

“Coming from baseball, the criteria they used is what they call the five-tool players, and he was really trying to find out what my impressions of the critical factors were for football players. That’s why he was here. But I was interested to hear what he had to say about how they did things and he was a very bright guy, and I enjoyed being with him very much.”

During his introductory news conference in January, DePodesta indicated he would embark on fact-finding missions while attempting to discover new or better ways to apply analytics to football.

“With 22 positions on the field where you are asking them to do different things and you need different things out of those different spots, there are going to be different challenges [to using analytics in football],” DePodesta said. “I don’t think there is any one silver bullet out there. We are going to try to learn as much as we can about every single one of those positions and try to figure out what it is that is truly meaningful in terms of their performance. Sometimes this might not even be related to numbers. There may be other characteristics that are really important.”

Hence the discussion with Parcells. The legendary coach has become a friend and unofficial adviser to Browns owner Jimmy Haslam in recent years, so it’s not shocking that DePodesta would arrive on his doorstep in a quest for knowledge.

Nate Ulrich can be reached at nulrich@thebeaconjournal.com.

Parcells talks about DePo

Tashaun Gipson left Cleveland so he could 'start winning' ... with the Jaguars
Pro Bowl safety Tashaun Gipson signed with the Jacksonville Jaguars, saying he wanted to win.

"You want to start winning. That's nothing against Cleveland," Gipson said. "I have nothing but love and respect for that organization and love for the city. But I feel like this organization is going in the right direction. It's a lot of moving parts with some good players in the right position."
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/3/10/11194654/tashaun-gipson-browns-jaguars-winning-free-agency

Alex Mack's Difficult Decision to Finally Leave Cleveland

"I felt it was time to experience a new city and team to make the best out of my football career."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2623981-alex-macks-difficult-decision-to-finally-leave-cleveland

Why Travis Benjamin Wanted to be a Bolt
“I wanted to come to San Diego to play with a great quarterback like Philip. The guy is a leader. He is a fighter. He is the type of quarterback who as a receiver you wish you get to play with.”

http://www.chargers.com/news/2016/03/09/why-travis-benjamin-wanted-be-bolt


Now does that sound like they wanted to stay and we pushed them away????...and Mack had a better contract on the table then where he decided to go...don't know how many ways a person can read those and say...hey they failed to keep our FA's we let them walk...really???

From my very good friend ddubia:



This is what I believe also. No further comment from me on the subject as ddubia said everything that needs to be said.

good read mac...thanx sounds like he is putting his best foot forward on it

yea I don't buy it for a second...if Mack wanted to be here he would have signed what was offered to him...plain and simple

101...why are you addressing that to me?

sounds like players that wanted to stay and a fo that couldnt sell them the idea of what they are trying to do.....

He just hit reply at the bottom and you started the thread mac.

lol sorry yea just hit reply not to respond to you at lol my bad

yea I don't have the words for that one....

I hope this guy is a fast learner,it's seems a bit late in the process to be just now learning what makes a football player a football player.
Fear not,he'll be in the war room,pimping that shortstop from Wichita St.

I think your total comment was a good one, but this really caught my eye and it's something that has me really excited about the direction we're heading. With the release of the RFID information we will KNOW if a guy is faster on game day than at practice. We'll have verifyable data that will conclusively say so.

To a certain degree it sucks for the players but all of the subjectivity will be taken out of the physical side of the equation. There will still be things like leadership and intangibles but I couldn't agree more that those need to reduced in importance to the things we can confirm.

I can hear it now...Depo asking Parcells...how come this stuff IS NOT coming out the way the formulas and graphs indicated?

Parcells reply...this is football, not baseball Paul...

JMO, but it's a little late on Depodesta's part to be asking for advise and input from the "football side"...after the most critical part of free agency is over...and now any plans the Browns may have had about getting their choice of QBs in the draft is now gone..not much Parcells can help them with.

Maybe now some folks will understand what is missing from the Browns front office setup...someone to help our rookie front office boys...this franchise is in dire need of someone with a background in football to help guide and direct the stats boys.

When the team's owner sends his "Chief Strategy Officer" to go spend some time with Bill Parcells, you know something's not quite right.

jmho

When did they meet?

That should tell everyone that the Browns aren't currently being analytically based in player evaluation. Depo is still working it out.

I made a post the other day that implementing this will take time. My point is not to fall into the trap that since Depo is here our draft evaluations will be based on numbers.

That's a really good catch 22 that you have...

On one side say that Depo is unwilling to talk with the football guys...

On the other side you put him down for doing exactly that.

You still don't have a clue on what he does, but can bash him either way.

This thread is getting close to 300 posts as well. Now you have something you can continue to attack for no reason in your 6th or 7th rehash of it that is yet to come.

"During his introductory news conference in January, DePodesta indicated he would embark on fact-finding missions while attempting to discover new or better ways to apply analytics to football."



"Hence the discussion with Parcells. The legendary coach has become a friend and unofficial adviser to Browns owner Jimmy Haslam in recent years, so it's not shocking that DePodesta would arrive on his doorstep in a quest for knowledge."

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...wledge-1.675909

Mac....go away...you wanted us to spend the picks to move up?



LOL....I still maintain, though a fan, you are a troll. You never stick up for the Browns. It's always the negative crap. Now it's we were beat to the #1 pick.



Take a hike.

What everyone should have realized, especially those who questioned the validity of anaylitics and football, is that this was going to take time. It was never going to be ready in time for this years draft. Everyone should know that.

DePodesta has the title of Chief Strategy Officer. To start at the beginning is to start at the top. At the top, the owner is a business man but based on a very different type of business. The strategies and policies and processes were probably based on what the owner knew worked best for him in his other business. "We always do it like this, it's how I want it."

But this is football. It's not a gas station. There's so much more to it than marketing to bring in customers. More than managing executives who are regional representatives and sales people. So much more to it than wheeling and dealing for the price of gas. Much more to it than making sure the employees at the convenience store function like a well oiled machine.

Very likely Depo's first focus was to question all the policies the Browns have been operating under organization-wide. How they do business. How everyone works together. How the decision making process is set up. Even who does what.

He would need to develop new strategies and policies regarding how they do business in the world of a sports franshise. He'd need to get the whole organization working together on a single goal--winning. Winning is the business of football.

Starting at the top he would develop processes to bring together all the executive positions/departments and get them aligned so they can work together seamlessly.

He could then move to the football side doing the same. There you find Sashi, Berry, the scouts and the head coach. Depo's job would be to develop strategies, policy and procedures that would get them aligned so they can work together seamlessly. He would set parameters, lanes of responsibility with processes in place that would keep people in their lane.

Once the organization as a whole is straightened out his final challenge would be to begin applying analytics to football. We all know how impossibly hard that must be. The only thing he has to go on, his experience, is from the baseball world. He needs to rightfully discern the difference in dealing with football and then develop strategies for implementing it.

When you consider all he had on his plate it shouldn't be surprising that he couldn't get it all done and foolproof in such a short amount of time.

Right now it is where it is. Just like the football team, it could take 2-3 years to fully incorporate analytics into the football side.

So to say he doesn't know what he's doing evidenced by his asking a football guru for help is to state the obvious. Two or three years from now he'll not need to pick the brain of a guru. He'll have already done that.

What this should show is how far Depo is into this. I assume he has the business part/strategies of the organization in place. That part is not a lot different than baseball and he came in with that experience.

Now he needs to apply himself to football players. Obviously he's in the beginning stages of that. It's going to be time consuming. Not an overnight thing.

If you are smart, you set a price that you are willing to pay, you go to that point. If it goes Beyond what you feel the object/Player is worth, you pass.


People do it at Auto auctions all the time. Did you ever watch Barrett Jackson auctions or any of the others on Velocity?

I go so far as to say, had the Browns paid Mack 15 million a year, they'd have retained him. then we'd hear about how stupid they were for overpaying.

there is just no pleasing some folks. The Browns are damned if they do and damned if they don't around here.

I can't seriously believe that people are telling me what the hell my intent was when I said "let them walk."

Have I freaking EVER been timid about expressing my viewpoints? Jesus guys............I KNOW what the hell I meant when I said it.

I meant that those guys are freaking gone!!! No one knows exactly why. Some keep saying over and over and over and over and over and over that they didn't want to play here. So what? What does that prove? Hell, it's actually a worse indictment about where the Browns are heading.

All I know is one thing. They are gone.

And don't any of you presume to act like you know my intent more than I do. Worry about your own self....it's a full time job!

LOL..........can I play? Let me channel my inner Da Mans Hot....Ewwww.....scary. Okay, I'll just use your sentence...

there [no capital T???] is just no rationalizing with some folks. The Browns are always right even though they constantly losing more games than they win and blowing things up over and over again. [wow, innovative grammar.]

Why would you think that that post was directed at you? Do you really believe that you are the center of the universe? That post was a general comment...

Since I am the one who uses "let them walk," and many others have told ME what I meant by it.........I thought it was time to set the record straight.

That term has been used by a number of posters...

You asked. I answered.

I understand that some might not appreciate my viewpoint...

I'm not awe struck by the great Flying J owner and his record of running the Browns, a team that I have been a fan of longer than some of you have been alive...

I'm not awe struck by the Harvard lawyers and analytics guys being in control of the Browns...

I've never been the type to follow the crowd or be a rah-rah type.

I'm not about to change folks..I will continue to draw on my background and the opinions I have formulated through the years, based on experience.

The Browns have the worst owner in the NFL and currently the Browns are the worst managed franchise in the NFL, IMO.

There is hole the size of Texas in the Browns front office and it becomes more obvious every day, that this front office is in need of someone with experience running a football franchise...someone with a background in football.

I consider myself to be "realistic" rather than anything else. There just hasn't been a lot of positive going on with the Browns since Haslam bought the team...I would love to be more positive, when there is something to be positive about.

I don't see myself changing unless something changes with this franchise...then "maybe" I can be more positive about the Browns owner and his management style.

jmho...mac

Probably the most childish post you've ever made..

We've received your viewpoint.

Thousands of times.

Over and over.

Your plan of putting the rest of us through misery until Haslam sells the team is not a good one.

We can't make that happen for you.

I had a very good response written for the folks who started the thread attempting to divide everyone into two groups...the positive posters and the negative posters.

The thread got deleted while I was typing my response...not wanting to waste a post that I made for that thread...I posted it here.

I do understand that some prefer "fairtail-rah-rah" posts rather than "reality"...for the record, I'm not negative, I'm realistic.

You have the right to believe whatever you want.

It's your right to repeat over and over again that I wish you would use a little restraint with.

If you really were realistic, you'd understand how old this got about 2000 posts ago.

There's an obvious answer,don't read or reply to his posts.

Must Read Article

No matter what you think about the FO, you should read that article. If nothing else, you should get a chuckle or two.

Never ever used a word like "Admiral"
trolling again I see...smh

Good Read thanks.

grimm...honestly, I like the name I gave the analytics boys...

Type in "Big Brain front office" into your search and see what comes up.

REALITY? That's kinda funny. Reality is, according to you, only what you believe. Fairytale is whatever you don't believe.

Tell me again please how that's reality. Are you the only person that is right?

j/c

So let me get this straight. Every word our former players said before the FA period was BS and everything they've said since moving on is Gospel?

Sounds like people accept the things they want to hear and disregard everything they don't want to hear.

And then some have the nerve to question the sanity of people who disagree?

Wow!

No in general about 80% of what players, coaches, agents and owners say is BS.

Goodell = 100% BS

I will feel a lot better if the front office were able to trade that overall #2 pick and gather a few more draft picks this year and next. Sort of like they did with the Falcons when they traded up to get Julio, except this time hopefully they will have some players drafted with those picks remaining on the roster 5 years later.

that they were in talks at all with the browns showed at least a willingness to stay. absurd saying they couldnt wait to leave.

I just find it funny how the common definition for insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Yet those who ascribe to that very thing wish to discuss the mental health of those who don't.

daman...was that you who started the thread, attempting to divide the board into two groups?

The reality is, the Browns front office is in need of someone with extensive knowledge on the football side of the franchise.

It's one thing to seek out someone with football experience for a 5 or 6 hour crash coarse on "what do I do now?"...and having that level of football expertise (a Parcells type) in the building at 76 Lou Groza Blvd, Berea OH.

The Browns, specifically, the stats boys, continue to miss the football knowledge needed to ensure that the Browns draft does not end up MUBAR.

DooDoo...this franchise is in need of a franchise QB...it is the Browns #1 need and has been since Haslam bought the team. Matter of fact, getting the right QB was one of Haslam's stated core principles when he first took over.

If that Franchise QB is available at #2, the Browns should take him. Both of the guys at the top of the QB board are 10 times the QB Manziel was, IMO.

I don't disagree that we need a franchise QB. I don't believe that anyone does. The big question is will there be someone they see as a franchise QB at #2?

I admit that I'm not happy with the resume's of the guys in charge of the FO. I admit that I doubt their ability to draft well. The jury is out since they've never conducted a draft and opinions will vary.

But I don't believe that this FO has two QB's rated the same. That an either and or selection would be a prudent one. To draft a QB that high in the draft, you must be 100% sold on the guy.

Now do I hope that guy is there? Yes I do. However, if they see the guy left at #2 as some sort of consolation prize, I would hope they pass on him.

I agree they must be 100 % sold he is the guy or just move on be it Ramsey trade down or whatever.

Lets not take a QB just for the sake of talking a QB

Pitt...how many times did I hear people say, there is no QB worthy of the top pick in this draft?

Guess what, the Rams believe there is and they just spent a ton on a chance to draft their QB...so much for the opinions of many who said no QB was worthy...and there are a whole lot of folks who agree with the trade the Rams made.

If the QB the Rams take is the QB you believe the Browns should have taken (if available)...what becomes your plan to address the franchises needs at QB?

then you have to do what teams do when their #1 target is taken ahead of them, go to target #2

YEESSSS! THIS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You can't answer a question there is no answer to. If you don't see a projected franchise QB at #2, you certainly don't draft a QB for the sake of drafting one and make a huge mistake.

Now I'm not saying we don't draft a QB at #2. I'm saying this FO better be sold on the QB they draft if they take one at #2. Their careers and future with the Browns will depend on it. Their future resume' in the league will depend on it.

The #2 pick in the NFL isn't a place for high risk gambles and experiments. It's a place where you address a problem with a solution. If the "leftover" was their guy all along, then by all means draft him. If he's rated lower than their top guy, it's an option you weigh. But you don't simply take a huge leap of faith without a great deal of confidence with your choice at the #2 pick in the draft.

This

Pitt...problem is, the Rams have Browns in a very bad position...we don't know who they are taking and any deal the Browns attempt to make might end up with the Browns shooting themselves in the foot.

The Browns must wait until draft day to see who the Rams take...and then and only then can the Browns be sure of the direction they need to take.

The Browns have no choice but to wait for the Rams pick.

...and meanwhile, go over every possible scenario making a plan of action for each of them. This is what teams do every year, every team.

This isn't rocket science.

Line up your trade partners now.

You need to know 2 things from them.

Their best offer on the #2 pick if the Rams pick Wentz.
Their best offer on the #2 pick if the Rams pick Goff.

The Rams did us a favor by not waiting till draft day to make that trade.

We know that the Rams are picking a QB because they gave up the farm for the choice.

We just have to figure out whether we want to pick at that spot or take a trade offer.

It doesn't take a big brain to figure out that we are not over a barrel.

The other thing to consider here is that we don't know that

a) the Browns see either Goff or Wentz worth the pick in the first place. If this is the case, the Rams jumping us doesn't really impact us i.e. if we're targeting someone like Bosa anyway

b) if the Browns favor one QB over the other, do they feel there is a big drop off? Just because we may like one, it doesn't automatically mean we dislike the other. It's possible the FO feels like both would be worth the pick, and they just happen to like one a little more than the other.

You may not go home with the prom queen, but her cute, younger sister isn't actually a bad deal either... just sayin

It is, if she is under-aged.

The actual definition of insanity, according to Dictionary.com Link


noun, plural insanities.
1.
the condition of being insane; a derangement of the mind.
Synonyms: dementia, lunacy, madness, craziness, mania, aberration.
2.
Law. such unsoundness of mind as frees one from legal responsibility, as for committing a crime, or as signals one's lack of legal capacity, as for entering into a contractual agreement.
3.
Psychiatry. (formerly) psychosis.
4.

extreme foolishness; folly; senselessness; foolhardiness:
Trying to drive through that traffic would be pure insanity.
a foolish or senseless action, policy, statement, etc.:
We've heard decades of insanities in our political discourse.

Just wanted to be a pain.

I heard that the Cowboys worked out Goff recently, which kind of supports the idea of the sister being just as cute as older sis.

The Cowboys pick 4th in the draft and if they did workout Goff, it should tell the Browns front office that there may not be as much difference between these two QBs as some think.

The Browns front office has to consider what next years draft looks like as far as franchise type QBs. The Browns might not even be in a position to pick this high in the draft for a long time to come. The 2016 draft might be this front offices best chance to land a the best or second best QB in this draft.

This front office does need to weigh the options and take advantage of the position they find themselves in now.

Or it could just be the Cowboys doing their due diligence.

And I fully expect that is what they are doing or have already done, mac...

But if we aren't drafting this high for years to come that would mean things have gotten better (if marginally), which in turn would mean the FO was doing something right, wouldn't it? lol

Joking aside, you are right, they definitely need to consider who may be available in 2017. I think the RGIII signing at least in theory gives us some flexibility to do that. If we take a QB at #2 this year, it'll be because we genuinely think he's the right fit for us at QB vs. taking a guy higher than we are comfortable with because we are desperate to fill the bare cupboard with somebody.

This is for Vers. You keep saying that Sashi is in charge of the draft room and here is additional proof of that statement. Enjoy Link

Cleveland Browns: The Browns talk about working together, taking input from coaches, front office and scouts. But the ultimate decision will fall on vice president of football operations Sashi Brown, who is responsible for the 53-man roster and the draft picks. This will be the first time Brown has that authority in his career. -- Pat McManamon

That's not news, FarmVille. It's been common knowledge that sashi will have final say, but I believe he will take input from others high up in the pecking order.

Agreed. No one has denied Sashi has final say. The push back Farmville, is in response to assertions that Sashi is ego-driven and going to shape the roster based solely upon what HE wants.