the numbers are telling
the Browns are either 29th to 32nd in every defensive stat known.
this is worse than the 1999 defense .
I see no emotion or fire out of those 11 guys.
they get the ball rammed down their throats and they are ok with it.
having a inept DC like Horton doesn't help
the overall fball i.q of this defense is high school borderline yet his scheme is based smoke and mirrors tricks
Horton should be gone after 2016. and this front office needs to invest heavily in playmakers on defense

honestly, the past 2-3 regimes are to blame ... whether it's player selection, development, or acquisition, they've been very poor ... and it's left us in the toilet in terms of talent

Change some selections, change some development, and keep Sheard, Rubin, Wynn, or whoever else (along with appropriate FA acqusitions), and we'd look different

Its no one thing .. a HUGE MIXTURE ...

LACK OF SPEED IS EVIDENT AT LB AND SECONDARY .. were very very very slow ..

- lack of talent .. its a RE-BUILD .. its hard, but this was to be EXPECTED ..

- youth ... were VERY YOUNG ...

- no PASS RUSH ... hopefully one of the kids that has not given us any signs at all thus far that they can be that guy ... shocks the hell out of us next year ..

- brutal secondary ... BRUTAL ...

- lack of atheliticsm at the LBer position .. the only one that shows flashes is Kirksey ... its his 3rd year .. hopefully the light is coming on .. hes very very inconsistent .. and sometimes a [censored] poor tackler ..

There's a good start .. *L* ..

We are beyond extremely young.

At DB, we have Haden, (7th year- injured) Williams, (10th year- missed time with injury) 2 4th year guys, and 5 rookies or 1st or 2nd year players.

On the DL we have

We have more experience at LB, but we have 1 6th year guys, and an incredible 5 rookies or 2nd year players.

At LB, we have our most veteran group, but we still have 3 rookies who are playing big minutes.

We also have Ray Horton as DC. I am not a big fan of him as DC, especially with a very young team. His history is that he throws his entire defense only the field in week 1, and they work on corrections in film study, and in practices over the following week. I would rather he had given the defense more time to get the basics down.

I don't understand why their was no money invested in the secondary in free agency by the front office
there not one player in the back 4 that could for for a
CFL team
that's the kicker this defense didn't HAVE TO BE BUILT THIS WAY!!
it's like the Harvard Bimbos didon't even try to address the defensive side

Well except for taking a DE in the 2nd round, another DE in the 3rd, an OLB in the 4th, a S in the 4th, a DB in the 5th, and an ILB in the 7th...except for those 6 draft picks, you're correct.
This wasn't the year to bring in high priced FA players. The Revis types wouldn't come without huge cash and they wouldn't help us win much more than we're going to without them. Patience. This rebuild is going to take time.

I blame the Browns front office, but again, this was the plan. They knew damn well this was going to happen.

You have absolutely no depth in the secondary.

The pass rush has been non-existent for... forever.

And the linebackers are slow and uninspiring.

I also don't think Ray Horton is the right guy for this job. It's fine for now, but as this team continues to add better talent I hope they add a better defensive coach under Hue Jackson.

I really feel like at any time, a team can throw up a deep ball and get a spot flag called on us. Part of that is the garbage of the NFL rules, and the other is that there is nothing good about our secondary.

I have a question or two for those who blame Horton.

--How did our defense perform last year?

--Are you discounting losing some decent players in Gipson, Kruger, Dansby, and Whit?

Everybody!!!!!!!!!!!

We have no playmakers or impact players, wasted years on Mingo, Kruger (path to QB is a long Circle), Slowest LB core ever, no safteys at all. Hayden best years behind him, bout sums it up.

Horton has always underachieved as a coordinator.
just ask the Cardinals and Titans
ask the Titans if they miss him.
those players the Browns let go let's see....

Dansby....hes been eh with the Bengals
Whitner...limited resume this season
Gibson....invisible so far for another underachieving defense in Jville
Kruger a whopping half a sack and 8 tackles for the Saints

Horton is the Brian Daboll of DCs. flops everywhere he goes but somehow finds employment

The FO made the decision to go with YOUTH and let the kids play so we could see what we have and get them some experience .. I AGREE with that decision .. like i said .. its HARD but it was the right way to go IMO ...

The only FA I wish they would have signed was Gipson .. he was OURS and he's YOUNG .. I'm not a fan of this FO at all .. i think there DOOMED TO FAILURE ... but with Gipson .. I don't think they had a shot in hell .. he wanted out and to have a chance to win .. thats not working out so well for him .. *L* ..

Horton first. What is not fixed? You coach what is in front of you, not who left, not a future draft or two. Even with what we have, we should do better. Head coaches get to dictate terms to OC, DC, and ST. It all sticks to him eventually. How much do you need to "see" in the FO to know we are inept on D, do not score enough, and mess up in the same lame ways on STs? That list of shortcomings must be lengthy.

We weren't going to sign any FA's and cost ourselves a comp pick. We knew that going in.

This is a true rebuild. You aren't going to see the Browns active on the first few days of FA. They're going to build this thing through youth and not cut corners like previous regimes have.

Everyone always makes the joke that the Browns have been rebuilding since 1999, but not really. They have been trying to build through high draft picks and extra picks, but they have constantly tried to streamline the process by signing guys who almost always come to Cleveland and underwhelm.

This year wasn't about wins and losses. It was seeing who right now has any value for the next 4-5 years. I think there is some hope that among all these young guys, that some leaders naturally emerge. The one bummer other than than the 7 losses is the fact that a lot of these young guys with promise have missed games due to injury.

I really hope they continue this way of business where they stay away from free agency outside of minor moves.

The biggest problem since 1999 - not the only one - has been the unholy number of top, first round busts.

j/c:

Horton will be the first--of many--sacrificial lambs.

And the beat goes on.

Maybe so, but I don't think that will happen this year.

I honestly can't tell how well Horton coaches because both times he was here we had poor defensive talent.

We'll see. Hue already threw Horton under the bus and the fans/media have been harsh.

Someone will probably pay for all these losses.

I missed that. Got a link to Hue's quotes about Horton?

Yes..........

Not exactly throwing Horton under the bus but I get you now.

What do you think is in fact fixable at this stage? I think it is never too early for fundamental priorities to get right. It can be too late however. Weak talent can muddy up how bad a poor defensive scheme appears. Ours is bad. And the way we play what we have is truly ineffective. We need a game plan that includes how much we have to carry the defense deadweight. More pressure, more press. Might swell send our ILBs, they cover nobody. Less clever, disguising, and jocking folks. Just line up and get after them harder and tackle. I think some of that can happen. Horton's head is squarely up where it shouldn't be IMO. Hue is responsible for making the fix that Horton won't.

one good thing is Hue and the staff have seemed to salvage Shelton. That may be the biggest positive of the season thus far.

Simply put. Not enough good players.
Some are too old and age is catching up with them I'm talking about you tomorrow Davis just a second or two too slow a second or two too late.

Then there are the safeties who are young and quite frankly may not be good enough. And that's before you get to the corners where are there in some cases too old two injury-prone and possibly not committed enough and the other corners are too young.

In the base 3-4 defense which we don't play that often there's only really one DL player that can get the job done and that Shelton. So it's kind of tough to have a 3-4 base with only a nose tackle where the ends are not NFL caliber....some could develop like Cooper but they simply might not be good enough.

I think the best bet is with a four-man line with Ogbah and Nassib at the end and Shelton and Cooper on the interior. But that still leaves Cooper has a questionable starter then it creates issues with the linebackers where in my opinion only Kirksey is good enough to play and maybe Schobert but he's a projection at this point and imo Davis is too slow.

Shelton worked his arse off ... the biggest jump your going to see in a player is between years 1 and 2 ... I keep saying that about this years crop of rooks .. lets see how they improve between this year and next before we start writing anyone off ....

Not so sure how much of this is because of the staff as opposed to the fact he worked his arse off and the natural progression of an NFL career ..

I agree w/this post almost completely. Firing Horton will not improve this defense.

.. " I agree w/this post almost completely. And Firing Horton will improve this defense.. " lol

Firing Horton will definitely not improve this defense. It's frustrating watching this garbage each sunday, but if it isn't fair to fire Hue after 1 season, I dont see how it would be fair to fire Horton after 1 season either.

So many points we have given over the top each and every darn week. No way Horton isn't telling these guys to watch out for this. The inexperience (and lack of talent) is killing us.

Once some of these rookies start growing into their bodies, this defense could be dangerous.

Our defense is a potpourri of badness.

Apart from Shelton, our DL is sketchy. I like Nassib but I don't think he's a natural 3-4 end. His hustle gets him through right now but I think he'd be a better fit at OLB.

LBs. I actually think our ILB duo is decent but our pass rush from the OLBs has been non-existent. Ogbah seems to be improving but we can't seem to find the compliment on the other side. Schobert has been invisible, Lemonier got injured, Cam Johnson is meh. Maybe this Tyrone Holmes kid can develop? Who knows?

CBs- THin and young. Taylor and Boddy Calhoun show some promise. Tramon just doesn't have the physical ability anymore. Haden is solid but holds ALOT. He's not a top 5 CB but he is starting quality.

Safeties- JUST HORRIBLE. Both Kindred and Campbell couldn't cover a receiver if their lives depended on it. Howard isn't any better. Sad to say that Poyer was our only coverage safety and he's done for the year. Part of me thinks maybe we should try to convert Tramon to safety instead of Howard?

We need to go heavy on defence in this draft and maybe pick up a proven pass rusher in free agency.

Jacksonville has the 12th ranked defense in the league and the 8th ranked pass defence. They get screwed because the offense is horrible and sticks them in bad spots.

If you think Gipson isn't contributing, you're delusional.

What I see on defense are players who are not good enough to be starters. Number 41 Howard has no clue what he is doing. I watched him take bad angles and not read plays until it was way to late.

Sadly he was not alone. There seems to be zero coordination in the defensive backfield.

The overall talent level on defense is way below average.

This team will either learn and grow or continue to lose.

No one that's still with the team. Missing on draft picks year after year sure didn't help us. We are in year one of a complete and total rebuild. We are playing a lot of first and second-year players. We are playing a new defense. This is no surprise. I figured we wouldn't win more than a couple games and that was before we lost so many vital players to injury. We will almost certainly go 0-16 now and I haven't been this positive about the Browns in a long time. I like our coaching staff and that includes Horton. I think if we give him time and some talent he will turn this mess into something special. I really like Hue Jackson. Losing right now is actually better for us. First pick in every round plus all the other picks we have this year? If our front office does this right we could be SET for a long time off this next draft. That is the hope anyway....

Passing blame on a team in the first year of a down to the studs rebuild is silly....

BUT, at least we are not spending out the wazoo for an atrocious defense like we were with Pettine and O'Neil. They were ranked at the bottom too and we were the or, close to the, highest paid defense.

He has played almost every snap but has what...one interception? He is far from Pro Bowl.

INT totals is hardly the best way to measure a safety's impact.

Gipson

comp 18, ast 1, int 1...meh in idk what 8 games?

Losing Gipson doesn't bum me out. Is he better than what we currently have? Sure. But, we don't know what some of our young guys might develop into or, what we may get in the offseason, draft, FA etc.

Of all our vets we lost Schwartz and Mack are the worst. Mack didn't want to be here so, bye bye. Hopefully Reiter can prove to be consistently good as the glimpse we saw against the 'Skins. RT is still an issue. Maybe Drango can win that position? Haven't seen enough of Colemon.

man I am pulling for Reiter like no other

Me too. We saw such a small sample but, he looked great and that game may arguably have been our Oline's best outing. Hopefully he comes back strong and picks up where he left off.

yup he came in an played like he was meant to be there. I hope he picks up where he left off.

As some one I know taught me...ITS THE LACK OF TALENT!

Is Reiter a keeper? I want to see more soon. He may not have been best, but he played like an upgrade IMO with what little I saw.

Is he out for the rest of the season?

Yeah he is, bad knee injury

Sorry. Didn't know that. My bad.

I think its purely a lack of talent that is holding us back on defense.