Browns fans have this fear that no one wants or will want the job. The truth is if there is one thing the Harvard Boys HAVE actually done correctly is they have created the perfect cockpit for the next group of guys. I would say as of right now the Browns upcoming vacanies will be some of the most sought after and here is why.
- DePodesta fired half the scouting department over them disagreeing with his computer program that listed Wentz as a mid round pick. The scouts said we have him in the top 3. Obviously the smartest guy in the room disagreed and fired them. The good news for the next guy is he can build the scouting department with HIS guys, guys who fit his SYSTEM.
- $50,000,000 in salary cap money. I can't say it enough, it is vital. This is something EVERY GM, ex GM or potential GM has DREAMS about. With that much salary revenue you can get really good, really fast. The issue these guys miss is you have to actually invest that money, not hoard it. There are plenty of candidates that would kill their mommas to have 50 million dollars.
- A small amount of talent. Granted, it's not much and certainly less than what Sashi inherited and sent packing but it is a start. There's a small amount to build around.
-2.5 years worth of draft volume in draft #1. Again, like the salary cap available, a good to great GM would kill to have that much draft volume to start with BECAUSE a good GM knows he can hit on most of the early picks with high impact, franchise players. Again, paired with free agency he knows he can make a team really good, really fast.
#1 overall pick- Again, see above. Kill for it. They get the pick of the litter.
- The bar is so low. It is sad but it is the truth. "Clueless" Hue Jackson and the Harvard Boys have set the bar so low that ANY good GM and good coach can rest assured that as long as they can go 5-11 or better their job is safe as Ft. Knox.
By these guys ineptitude they are creating the perfect cockpit for a new regime to step into. A proven guy like Scott Pioli would be chomping at the bit to build the next Patriots styled dynasty with those tools to work with. Or even a PROVEN Director of Player Personnel with tons of experience more than ready to take on the challenge.
The fan frustration is building..at least for the hard core fans. You can sense it...
I'm one that believes that expressing your ideas and thoughts...it's a good thing.
King of Kings brings up some good points and I must agree, the idea that there is no one with football background willing to work with this front office group or for Haslam..I don't consider that a legitimate concern.
I will say it again, IMO, it does not help to just start firing everyone and start over again. I'm one that looks at a situation and says, how can we make it better..how can we fix it?
Nothing wrong with having the smartest people you can find helping but if they are lacking in a key area, such as experience...I find a way to fix the problem...I find a way to make it work better.
There is no doubt that "misjudgments" were made in the draft, at a position of the greatest need for this franchise. That is not an area that you want your front office making a mistake about, the QB position. The QB position continues to be the #1 area of concern...as an owner, you must be asking yourself this question...do we want to trust the same people who "misjudged" the QB talent in last years draft, to make the correct QB choice in the next draft?
I believe the front office boys need help in the area they are the weakest in...football experience.
Maybe we need better ("more experienced") QB scouts rather than more experienced higher ups. Analytics/formulae, etc. are only as good as the information fed into them.
Vers made a point in another thread I'd like to address here, wondering what happens if the losses pile up into 2017. IMO, Haslam has to give this FO three seasons - the coach, too - to determine if their plan is working out. If he knew-jerks his way into another house cleaning, it'll prove again he's an incompetent NFL owner.
Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' quarterbacks and right approach to rest of season -- Terry Pluto
Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer November 12, 2016 at 8:05 AM, updated November 12, 2016 at 8:20 AM link
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Cleveland Browns are off this weekend, and everyone with the team needs a break.
The front office and coaching staff has to sit down and first agree that they are in this mess together. If fingers of blame starting pointing at each other, it will be more of the same approach that has doomed so many other Browns regimes.
The Browns need to return to the main purpose of this season -- developing and finding young players.
Hue Jackson needs to be told even if the Browns are 0-16 this season, he's not being fired.
Owner Jimmy Haslam must make that promise to his head coach. And Haslam has to stay the course with Jackson, regardless of how ugly it gets in 2016.
If you want to find and develop young players, then the coach must know he is safe.
If not, you will see more desperate moves such as rookie Cody Kessler being yanked in favor of Josh McCown early in the third quarter of what became Thursday's 28-7 loss in Baltimore.
Jackson is feeling the pressure of coaching the NFL's only winless team. It's embarrassing and frustrating. It's something he never imagined.
But the Browns 0-10 record doesn't belong only to Jackson. It's also a product of front office decisions. There has been some truly horrible luck involved.
In other words, from VP Sashi Brown on down -- they're all 0-10. This is a team effort.
Haslam has to resist the temptation to blow up the Brown/Jackson combination no matter how terrible the season ends. Another demolition job would just make the franchise even worse.
ABOUT JOSH McCOWN
Most Browns fans know McCown is a class act, a role model for young quarterbacks. He backs his coaches.
The criticism that follows has nothing to do with this good man's character or his will to help the team.
Consider the following:
McCown is 37 years old. He broke a collarbone in 2015. He broke a collarbone in 2016. He had a rib injury (probably a fracture) in 2015. He had a major concussion in 2015. He missed eight games because of injuries in 2015. He was injured after one start this season. He had a thumb injury in 2014 and missed five games while with Tampa. I believe he's not close to feeling 100 percent physically right now. Consider how he can't move in the pocket and how long it takes him to get rid of the ball.
At his best, McCown can get on a hot streak and win a few games, but he has been a career backup.
Consider the following:
He is 18-41 as a starter for his career. McCown was 3-2 with Chicago in five starts in 2013. Since then, he has been 1-10 (Tampa, 2014), 1-7 (Browns, 2015) and 0-2 (Browns, 2016) as a starter. It makes no sense for the NFL's youngest team to play McCown.
McCown has a history of turning the ball over, and not just with interceptions.
In 2014, he fumbled 10 times in 11 starts for Tampa Bay. His team lost four of those fumbles. In 2015, he fumbled nine times in eight starts for the Browns. His team lost six of those fumbles. This season, he has fumbled four times, the Browns losing two. He also has thrown six interceptions in 10 quarters. McCown can be hot for a half. That happened in the first half of the losses to Baltimore and the Jets.
But in the second half of those games, McCown was a combined 19-of-41 passing with 1 TD and 4 interceptions.
A huge issue for McCown is dropping too deep in the pocket and standing in there too long. The blocking breaks down.
Because of all his injuries, McCown is not mobile at all. He becomes a stationary target for the defense. His age is showing.
In 10 quarters, McCown has six interceptions and four fumbles. He really is struggling under defensive pressure, turning the ball over.
There is a lot rookie Cody Kessler can learn from McCown, especially in terms of game preparation and how to survive in the NFL.
But there's nothing the Browns can learn with McCown on the field right now.
ABOUT CODY KESSLER
Jackson needs to go back to the reason he said "Trust Me" about Kessler.
A big part of why the Browns picked Kessler in the third round was his passing accuracy and how he stays away from turnovers.
Kessler was struggling in the Browns game at Baltimore.
He was 11-of-18 passing for only 91 yards. He hit a nice 25-yard TD pass to rookie tight end Seth DeValve.
But he had problems. He returned from a concussion to start the Browns 35-10 loss to Dallas last week. Then he left the game with the Browns losing, 13-7, early in third quarter in Baltimore.
In those two games, covering slightly more than six quarters, the Browns were 2-of-15 converting on third downs. They scored only 17 points.
Baltimore's defense was ranked No. 2 heading into Thursday night. Dallas was ranked No. 10.
Those teams are making a lot of quarterbacks look bad.
Heading into the fourth quarter, the Ravens had a 21-0 lead over Pittsburgh in the game before the Browns. The Steelers scored twice in the fourth quarter, making the final score 21-14, Baltimore.
Dallas has a 7-1 record and has held five of its opponents to fewer than 20 points.
That should be taken under consideration when looking at Kessler's recent performance.
Kessler has only one interception this season. He has fumbled four times (the Browns losing one).
So this is not about singing quarterback Hosanna's about him. Right now, Kessler looks like a career backup.
But he also looks like a much better choice to start the rest of the season for the Browns.
THE BOTTOM LINE
I really like Jackson as a coach for this team.
I admire how he has dealt with what is nearly an impossible situation when it comes to trying to win a game.
There are breakdowns. Defensive coordinator Ray Horton still creates doubts, at least for me. I have written about that before.
But the big picture is very positive when it comes to Jackson and his ability to handle the stress of losing and coaching such a young team. I write that despite not liking him pulling Kessler in Baltimore.
That was a first guess, because I immediately thought of his comment about not wanting to "play musical chairs" with his quarterbacks. He said that Monday.
No matter how he tries to explain it, he did crank up the quarterback music when he switched from Kessler to McCown.
The Browns need to spend time figuring out how to squeeze the most out of the last six games.
Despite the record, it is not a team totally lacking in talent. But most of that talent is young and it requires patience from the coaches, front office and ownership.
Well, maybe he thinks if you had a bad experience w/a doctor before, you should go to plumber the next time you are ill. It's brilliant logic.....Really.
^ ^Prime example of when someone makes a comment to try and discredit them w/o truly knowing their stance on the topic.
Quote:
I'm not saying this FO is the answer because we now have a lawyer and a baseball guy instead of a GM (and I like a traditional GM/scout system for the record that goes as far as removing the coach's influence), but that justification, again, doesn't warrant firing people nine games into the season. Especially when it was quite evident we were going to a tear down/rebuild.
my hope is that Hue has been trying to hammer home teaching points to Cody, and during the Baltimore game Cody still wasn't applying them.
so Hue benched him as another teaching moment hoping Cody would respond and get it
Thats not how u handle a 23 year old rookie ... especially when your trying to force him to do something he's obviously not comftorable with at this point ...
If thats why he did it .. hes handling even worse than i thought and i think he's TOTALLY SCREWED this up since last weeks presser ...
Hue should be going over things with him and doing things to make him more comfortable in making the throws we need him to ATTEMPT! ...
Hue is becoming frustrated with Kessler and it is beginning to show. I'm not sure Hue can fix what he sees wrong with Kessler. It looks as though we are talking about Kessler's ability to make the deep throws..Kessler's willingness to take the chance and trust his WRs.
When Hue sends in a pass play, he has a good idea of where that pass should go..Hue watches the play develop and expects that pass to be thrown. It sounds as if Hue is seeing and reading opportunities...but Kessler is not seeing those opportunities on the field, in games.
It has to be frustrating for Hue to watch potential big gains, not even attempted. Hue was a QB in HS and College and coached WRs and RBs for 8 yrs before getting his first QB coaching job.
...Hue knows both ends of a pass play..from the QB to the WR, so he is looking at his QB and wondering why that end of the equation is not working, delivering the pass.
If Cody isn't comfortable throwing deep, then all that does is confirm we need to draft a QB.
Defense in this league are way too good to be playing dink and dunk all the time.
I agree ... u can't play dink and dunk all the time ... 100% agree with that ...
Cody is not near a finished product ... he's smart and accurate ... if he can learn to anticipate his throws he can make the throws necessary ... thats a PROCCESS ....
He's not there yet ... he's still learning how to read a defense .. the speed of the game ...
He's a THINKING TO MUCH .. when he gets more comfie and the progressions come natural to him and he is no longer THINKING ... he will be better ..
Do i think he will ever be more than a quality back up .. NO ... but we simply don't know that yet ...
HE'S A ROOKIE that has started .. what .. 4 or 5 games .. and u guys seem to think hes a FINISHED PRODUCT .... he's not even close ..
IMO this is way more FRUSTRATION than anything else ...
Also .. i would love to draft a QB early this year ... but not unless Hue lOVES one of them .. if he gambles on Watson or whoever the top QB's are in this draft just because we need one .. that will just RETARD OUR GROWTH ONCE AGAIN ....
Just because we need one ... doesn't make the kids coming out ANY BETTER ...
I'm very fearful were going to waste one of our 1st or 2nd round picks on a QB ..
If Cody isn't comfortable throwing deep, then all that does is confirm we need to draft a QB.
It does not confirm anything. All it does is show that we need to find out if we can gt him to the point that he is willing to make those throws, then to get him comfortable making those throws.
If we cannot get him to that point then yes we need a new Qb.
Once at that point, we need to evaluate if he is any good at it.
Well apparently Hue is losing patience trying to get him to that point.
He's watching the plays develop, yet Cody isn't pulling the trigger.
Right now the only QB on this team who is good at the deep ball is RG3.
But his injury history says he isn't the answer.
I think the FO and Hue are going QB in the first round if Cody refuses to throw deep these last 6 games. At some point, Cody had to grow a pair and launch a pass downfield.
Cody Kessler says he’s motivated by Thursday night benching Posted by Michael David Smith on November 12, 2016, 9:35 AM EST BALTIMORE, MD - NOVEMBER 10: Quarterback Cody Kessler #6 of the Cleveland Browns is tackled by defensive end Timmy Jernigan #99 of the Baltimore Ravens in the second quarter at M&T Bank Stadium on November 10, 2016 in Baltimore, Maryland. (Photo by Rob Carr/Getty Images) Getty Images
Browns quarterback Cody Kessler was benched on Thursday night, but he’s not down about it.
Kessler said on Friday that he’s fired up and eager to prove he can be the man to lead the Browns, even if coach Hue Jackson had a quick hook with him during Thursday night’s loss to the Ravens.
“Yeah, it motivates you to want to be better,” he said, via Cleveland.com. “It motivates you to keep working hard for that to happen. For me, it was ‘if I’m in there I’m going to do everything I can, work as hard as I can and if I come out, I’m going to be the best teammate I can and support the guys.’ It just motivates me to continue to work harder and be that much better.”
Jackson’s decision to bench Kessler during the game was surprising because Kessler hadn’t been playing too badly, completing 11 of 18 passes for 91 yards, with one touchdown and no interceptions. Josh McCown was terrible in Kessler’s place, completing six of 13 passes for 59 yards, with no touchdowns and two interceptions.
Kessler has been confirmed as the Browns’ starter next week. It’s still possible that Robert Griffin III could return to the lineup late in the season, but from all indications Kessler is the man. And he sounds confident in himself, even if Jackson didn’t show much confidence in him.
Cody has six games to prove himself..then, if doesn't show signs of being the answer, it will be time to draft another QB, hopefully in the first round.
Hue is becoming frustrated with Kessler and it is beginning to show. ...but Kessler is not seeing those opportunities on the field, in games.
It has to be frustrating for Hue to watch potential big gains, not even attempted.
I often wonder if that is the difference between practice and games..in practice he makes the reads and the throws and then come game time, he hesitates.
In the game thread I mentioned that when you watch the replay, it looks like the receivers are open...again that is from the couch and rewinding the DVR. Obviously, this is speculation on my part but the benching of Cody seemed to fit...trying to spur him on to make the throw -- let your receiver make a play. If you are worried about making a mistake, you'll never be an starting NFL QB and for a guy whose accuracy was heralded and
It took so long for us to even begin to throw in the middle of the field for most of the game...and Ravens exposed us at the middle all night. I was happy on the one throw to TP where the ball was thrown short (intentionally I think) and TP made the adjustment and I was thinking...sweet, the QB and Receivers are finally getting on the same page - but that ended quickly.
The frustrating part - for me - is that in my mind, a perfect pass will beat perfect coverage most of the time. I saw his accuracy capacity as his strength and figured we'd be a short - medium pass ball control Offense - much like Dallas did to us for most of the game. Ravens did the same - attack the middle of the field and not too deep, and then take your shots downfield. And we did this for the first few drives and then we slip into 'zombie O' where we seem to just go through the paces.
I'm praying the FO has a 3-year plan and this year with 0-3 wins being the expected reality. IF they really thought they were going to be a near .500 team, then we really are in trouble and the blame will result in a clean slate after next season and another reboot.
All this stuff about "poor Cody" and "Hue is ruining him" is already old.
Hitching our wagon to Cody Kessler and blaming coaches---which ultimately leads to firings--is about as dumb as it gets.
Never said "poor Cody" .. what i did say was Hue screwed this up the last 2 weeks cause he did .. and u know it ... who am i suppose to blame for Hue wanting him to do something he isn't COMFTORABLE with yet? ... that sounds like a coaching problem to me ...
also said i think he will never be an average starter in this league ... just ignore that to push your "horrible plan" agenda ...
Then again I'm not a member of or the president of the FREE PASS FOR JACKSON club ... poor Hue ... poor poor Hue ... oh wait .. he stuck himself with Cody and RG3 and Josh ...
*LOL* ... he's played in 6 games ..... KICK HIM TO THE CURB ... hes a finished product ... ..
Well apparently Hue is losing patience trying to get him to that point.
Ultimately that is the question. How long do you give him?
If I'm Hue, I design a couple plays where he has no choice but to throw deep. Coleman runs a fly, Pryor a deep post. Everyone else stays in for max protect. Force Kessler to start throwing deep.
That would work except Kesller doesn't have the arm to go deep. The kid is west coast Colt McFry. If Hue knew what he was doing he would have known that before the draft.
On stating last night Kessler wasn’t doing what he normally does well and what those were:
“First of all, let me say this about Cody: Me and Cody had a great conversation this morning. Cody is in a great place. You guys all know, I think he understands the situation from last night was a tough one. I think you guys will find when you get the opportunity to talk to him that he learned that this experience of a Thursday night game is tough. It is different. This was his first opportunity under the lights and our whole team’s first opportunity under the lights, a kind of pressure-packed gameplan on Thursday night and a whole different process during the week than what you normally do, and it can be a little unsettling. What I saw earlier were just some things of putting the ball in the proper spots where I wanted the ball to be, and it wasn’t there, but it wasn’t just Cody, let me say that. When I look back at it now and had a chance to watch the tape, it is an offensive unit issue. Obviously, everything that you guys know from me is driven by the quarterback. He knows that and understands that. He is the quarterback and he will come back out here and get ready to fight against Pittsburgh.
Over in the game day thread someone brought up the subject of why Haslam, Depodesta and Sashi do not make themselves available to the media, to answer some questions? Hue is the one getting all the questions, while the owner and his Harvard Boys remain in hiding.
During the Ravens game, the camera picked up Depodesta and Sashi watching the game together. Depodesta was playing with his phone/twitter/text toy, not the least bit interested in the game, while Sashi had this blank stare on his face with his eyes wide open looking down on the field...
...I could not help but notice that Depodesta was wearing a freaking "PURPLE TIE"...it was like, this guy just doesn't get it...wearing a purple tie at a Ravens game and he is supposed to be THE BROWNS Chief Strategy Officer ...unreal.
There was a brief shot of Haslam watching the game and he did not look happy..he was not smiling. Maybe it is finally starting to sink in for Haslam..just how historically bad he is, as an NFL owner. I don't think many are buying the excuse that 0-10, with a good possibility of going 0-16...IS PART OF THEIR MASTER PLAN.
IMO, Haslam, Depodesta and Sashi are this bad and have made some unbelievable misjudgments and now they are hiding from the media, pushing Hue out front to answer all the questions.
...they need to come out of their bunker and face the fans and the media...this is their mess, not Hue's.
Cody has six games to prove himself..then, if doesn't show signs of being the answer, it will be time to draft another QB, hopefully in the first round.
I think we are drafting another QB but hope not in the 1st round...I just don't see a 1st rounder in the up coming bunch.
as of right now Cody needs more reps for sure. One thing is for sure. I don't want to see anymore of this 3 QB's a game thing. If we ride with Cody then by god ride with Cody.
...they need to come out of their bunker and face the fans and the media...this is their mess, not Hue's.
I won't be surprised to hear from Sashi and DePodesta this week. The bye at the latest. My guess is you don't hear from Haslam until the season is over.
Furthermore, don't expect to hear much other than we need to be patient, we expected to win more games, there has been a number injuries, we're never going to stop working to improve.....etc. It won't be anything groundbreaking is my point.
All depends on how the media goes in on them with the questioning.
if Sashi and Depodesta were let go in the off season I doubt they would be hired by another NFL front office in the capacity they have with the Browns they would be just like the previous Browns failures ....Heckert...Farmer.....Savage. going what if......"Yeah NFL Gm.....it's a tough racket.....I was in over my head....bartender another Jack and Coke please."
During the Ravens game, the camera picked up Depodesta and Sashi watching the game together. Depodesta was playing with his phone/twitter/text toy, not the least bit interested in the game,
So this sums up my issue with your current take on the Brown's FO (Plus the constant belittling of them by using 'Harvard Boys').
You've taken a 4 or 8 second snippet of a 3 hour plus game - and saw Podesta texting someone on his phone. You've decided to interpret that as Podesta isn't interested in the game, period. I don't think that's fair or accurate. jmo
As for why Podesta Sashi and Haslam don't answer questions in the media .... I think Hue made a very astute comment early on in training camp - I don't know if anyone else can remember the circumstances better - Hue was fielding questions from a clearly riled up media after one set back or another but very early in training camp, or maybe it was about naming a starter very very early in camp ... he basically said something that the Cleveland media was asking the sort of questions that only a chronically losing franchise could come up with. That on normal football teams the issues that the media were fixating on were not aspects that the media for other teams ever inquired or wrote about..... To me the idea that the Sashi, Podesta and Haslam need to be paraded in front of the media is another example of this. Personally I want them to continue to act and operate in a fashion in accordance with a normal NFL team - 0-16 a possibility or not. I remember when Detroit went 0-16 ... I remember a lot of media play and speculation - I don't remember the GM or owner holding crisis media sessions to answer questions from the media. . . .
Iv'e seen talk about whether everyone's getting a free pass in 2016, and to some extent I think they are and I don't have a problem with it because the plan was always about a complete re-boot. I don't think you can begin to judge the plan or the re-boot until next year. again - jmo.
Over in the game day thread someone brought up the subject of why Haslam, Depodesta and Sashi do not make themselves available to the media, to answer some questions? Hue is the one getting all the questions, while the owner and his Harvard Boys remain in hiding.
Typically, the FO and perhaps the owner will wait until the bye week to address the media. You are making a big deal out of nothing.
Now, I want to get back to Cody for a minute. It seems a lot of people are defending him and getting on Hue. I even read where Cody isn't comfortable making all the throws yet. What?
This is the NFL! If he isn't comfortable--or more likely he can't--make[ing] all the throws yet, his butt needs to be benched immediately. And it probably means he has no chance of ever being decent in this league.
I just hope that comment was not true, for our sake and for Cody's.
It could be really simple Vers. The coaching staff looks at the film and see's guys open down field. Kessler being a Rookie and see's guys as covered down field. We all know there is a big difference between open in College and open in the NFL Kessler is still trying to learn what open really is in the NFL. It's a process, and it takes time. Will he ever learn it??? Is it all mental right now or does he not have confidence in his arm??? Is it that his arm is just to weak??? Time will tell bro.
Now, I want to get back to Cody for a minute. It seems a lot of people are defending him and getting on Hue. I even read where Cody isn't comfortable making all the throws yet. What?
vers...I would like to know what the context of his comment was, to figure out how to react...do you have the article?
Now, I want to get back to Cody for a minute. It seems a lot of people are defending him and getting on Hue. I even read where Cody isn't comfortable making all the throws yet. What?
vers...I would like to know what the context of his comment was, to figure out how to react...do you have the article?
He's talking about me ... no article ...
GM just said one of the same things I been saying about it ... and Vers says its a good post ... guess U agree with me alot more than u want to admit Vers ...
If Haslem fires anybody I am done with this team. The sad part is we are still getting reports of FO and coaching tension with yet another regime. Common factor is Jimmay........he wants to run the show and has no frigging clue what he is doing
Tension mounting in Cleveland, where yet more change is feared The Browns are going nowhere fast, and another shake-up could be on the way
Jason La Canfora mugshot by Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 1h ago • 1 min read
Hue Jackson's decision to bench rookie starting quarterback Cody Kessler in the second half of the Browns' loss in Baltimore on Thursday night has heightened tension between the front office and coaching staff, according to sources with knowledge of the situation. With the team inching closer to an 0-16 season, more change seems inevitable.
At the very least, sources say defensive coordinator Ray Horton is facing a very uncertain future, with his unit allowing more than 30 points per game, and changes could be far more sweeping. Horton is a very unpopular pick in various quadrants of the organization to return as defensive coordinator but is supported staunchly by Jackson. Sources said owner Jimmy Haslam, along with his wife Dee, has become increasingly hands on, with many departments essentially reporting directly to his family. It was Haslam who ultimately decided to hire Jackson and sign off on Horton as coordinator, despite strong reservations expressed by others.
The dynamic between the personnel department and coaching staff -- regularly fissured throughout Haslam's various management regimes -- again is a concern to many in the organization, with Kessler's benching raising eyebrows. Given Haslam's propensity for wholesale changes, increasingly lopsided recent defeats and the fact Cleveland has won three games since Thanksgiving of 2014, trepidation is mounting that another shake-up awaits as the winless franchise must start preparing season-ticket invoices for 2017.
Morale is low, even by Browns standards, and with 10-or-so departments reporting directly to ownership and without the presence of a strong team president providing leadership, the hands-on approach of the Haslams is causing concern throughout the organization.
"You basically have a husband and wife in charge of various areas they don't really understand -- football, coaching, scouting, analytics, ticketing, marketing," a team source said. "And that's the way they want it."
Haslam has fired three coaches and general managers in the past four years and has blown up his front office repeatedly, fluctuating from one organizational structure to the next.
If Haslem fires anybody I am done with this team. The sad part is we are still getting reports of FO and coaching tension with yet another regime. Common factor is Jimmay........he wants to run the show and has no frigging clue what he is doing
DING DING DING .... been waiting for this one .. i don't see anyone getting fired .. but MONEYBALL and football just isn't going to work ... they can sing Kumbya all they want ..
And i'm not sure if what LaContra said is true of he's just looking for some hits on his article .. but his premise MAKES SENSE and IMO was inevitable ... if the rift hasn't started yet, it will soon ..
The thiefs problem has been on the FO side ... his 1st attempt was two BAFOONS whose hire made us the laughing stock of the league and remarkably its gotten WORSE FROM THERE ..
I do not expect anyone to get fired this year .. maybe Horton ..
But one of these two sides is going to eventually won out ..
MONEYBALL or Hue and the football peeps ...
My guess is after the year .. there all signing kumbya again in public .. but the rift and tension in the building wil be there ..
Now, I want to get back to Cody for a minute. It seems a lot of people are defending him and getting on Hue. I even read where Cody isn't comfortable making all the throws yet. What?
vers...I would like to know what the context of his comment was, to figure out how to react...do you have the article?
Sorry mac. I replied to you about the FO not speaking to the media.
I then moved on from that to Diam--and some others--getting on Hue for his handling of Cody. Diam even said that Cody wasn't comfortable making all the throws yet.
I think that is preposterous on more than one level. One, if he isn't comfortable making the throws, he should have been benched and remain on the bench. Two, he had the same rap in college. This isn't something new. Three, I think he can't make the throws and it has nothing to do w/him being "comfortable." Four, I don't want to see another HC thrown under the bus because some posters have a love affair w/a qb who more-than-likely doesn't have enough tools to be a long-term starter in this league.
The first sentence of the article ends with "... according to sources with knowledge of the situation.".
No offense, but I stopped reading there. Mike Lombardi is at it again.
Dave, people like to knock LaCanafora on here. He received a ton of criticism on here by posters when he talked about why Shanny left and the rift that was prevalent w/in the organization. Well, like it or not, he turned out to be right and all the hateful criticism was misplaced.
Now, I want to get back to Cody for a minute. It seems a lot of people are defending him and getting on Hue. I even read where Cody isn't comfortable making all the throws yet. What?
vers...I would like to know what the context of his comment was, to figure out how to react...do you have the article?
Sorry mac. I replied to you about the FO not speaking to the media.
I then moved on from that to Diam--and some others--getting on Hue for his handling of Cody. Diam even said that Cody wasn't comfortable making all the throws yet.
I think that is preposterous on more than one level. One, if he isn't comfortable making the throws, he should have been benched and remain on the bench. Two, he had the same rap in college. This isn't something new. Three, I think he can't make the throws and it has nothing to do w/him being "comfortable." Four, I don't want to see another HC thrown under the bus because some posters have a love affair w/a qb who more-than-likely doesn't have enough tools to be a long-term starter in this league.
Love affair? ...
Another low blow Vers ... your getting more and more like Swish everyday ...
I'm out .. go ahead and keep making crap up about what i said ...
.they need to come out of their bunker and face the fans and the media...this is their mess, not Hue's.
That really isn't the way it works in most cases. In season, the coach is the voice of the team. What are the GM or owner really going to have to say?? If they do come out and start talking they stand a good chance of undermining either some of the players or the coach.
I don't see how any good comes from that. Once the season is over is when they should come out and answer questions. We all know you want to tar and feather the front office, but there really isn't anything they can add to the discussion at this point.
It is pretty well known that LaCanfora's go-to on things regarding the Browns is Mike Lombardi. That doesn't necessarily mean he didn't get the story from Shanahan about his departure. Besides, you don't have to be Nostrodamus to predict that there is "tension" in the organization. They're 0-10, of course there's tension. I think if Haslam cleans house again, the PR firestorm would be so bad that he'll have to sell the team. Which might make it worth it. Paging Dan Gilbert - got a spare $1.5B?
"You basically have a husband and wife in charge of various areas they don't really understand -- football, coaching, scouting, analytics, ticketing, marketing," a team source said. "And that's the way they want it."
What the hell would Jima and De be in charge of?
...don't they know their place as owners?
Jimmies record speaks for itself when it comes to knowing anything about football.
Gonna say it again, what is missing from the Browns management setup...someone with football knowledge leading the front office...someone with the ability to put it all together and make the plan work.
The first sentence of the article ends with "... according to sources with knowledge of the situation.".
No offense, but I stopped reading there. Mike Lombardi is at it again.
Dave, people like to knock LaCanafora on here. He received a ton of criticism on here by posters when he talked about why Shanny left and the rift that was prevalent w/in the organization. Well, like it or not, he turned out to be right and all the hateful criticism was misplaced.
DO NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER!
Obviously Canfora has a source within the Browns organization, willing to talk about what is going on, under these very trying circumstances.
...as a fan, I want to know what is going on..how the front office and owner are feeling about the product they delivered, MONEYBALL!
The first sentence of the article ends with "... according to sources with knowledge of the situation.".
No offense, but I stopped reading there. Mike Lombardi is at it again.
Dave, people like to knock LaCanafora on here. He received a ton of criticism on here by posters when he talked about why Shanny left and the rift that was prevalent w/in the organization. Well, like it or not, he turned out to be right and all the hateful criticism was misplaced.
DO NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER!
Obviously Canfora has a source within the Browns organization, willing to talk about what is going on, under these very trying circumstances.
...as a fan, I want to know what is going on..how the front office and owner are feeling about the product they delivered, MONEYBALL!
MONEYBALL...in the NFL...what could go wrong?
The last time JLC sited a "team source", it was proven to be an absolute lie, IIRC. The story is on here somewhere. He claimed a team exec sent him information, when he copied information from another journalist.
Later Vers .. your free to make up whatever crap u want ...
Hue drafted him and I have no problem if you wanna rip Hue for that. However, I do have a problem w/you making a big deal of Hue benching a guy who won't/can't make all the throws that are given to him.
The last time JLC sited a "team source", it was proven to be an absolute lie, IIRC. The story is on here somewhere. He claimed a team exec sent him information, when he copied information from another journalist.
It was when he stole a screen shot from Benjamin Allbright and claimed an "NFL personnel exec" sent it to him. La Canfora has no journalistic integrity and is borderline irrelevant.
Hue drafted him and I have no problem if you wanna rip Hue for that.
vers...we don't that to be true...that it was Hue's choice to take Kessler over the other talent on the board.
I know Hue manned up and took all the criticism for the pick, but he might have doing it to help out "the boys".
Hue may have had another choice in mind and was overruled. I believe Hue sees himself as having broad shoulders, willing to take the heat and inquires from the media.
I happen to believe that Hue does a helluva job handling the media...but that does not mean that the fans and media are necessarily getting the straight scoop from Hue.
Hue drafted him and I have no problem if you wanna rip Hue for that.
vers...we don't that to be true...that it was Hue's choice to take Kessler over the other talent on the board.
I know Hue manned up and took all the criticism for the pick, but he might have doing it to help out "the boys".
Hue may have had another choice in mind and was overruled. I believe Hue sees himself as having broad shoulders, willing to take the heat and inquires from the media.
I happen to believe that Hue does a helluva job handling the media...but that does not mean that the fans and media are necessarily getting the straight scoop from Hue.
jmho
I tell you what - some peeps have much higher expectation of how a 3rd round rookie thrown into the deep end of a talent lacking team should perform. I guess they'd prefer Kyle Boller and his ability to wing the ball through the uprights from the half way line, on his knees. What an arm that former first round pick had.
Below is the Pro Football Talk replay of the Canfora story. What I find interesting is reading the replies under the story...a lot of the same things we have been discussing in this thread...
Report: “Heightened tension” in Cleveland, as you get when you’re 0-10
Posted by Darin Gantt on November 13, 2016, 10:04 AM EST
When Browns coach Hue Jackson was asked last week about the future of defensive coordinator Ray Horton, he headed off the discussion and any like it.
But the interesting part will be whether Jackson is able to protect a guy he hand-picked for the job, amid the inevitable uncertainty that comes with being 0-10.
According to Jason La Canfora of CBSSports.com, Horton’s status and Jackson’s decision to bench rookie quarterback Cody Kessler last week have led to “heightened tension” within the Browns organization.
There’s also mention that owner Jimmy Haslam and his wife Dee have become increasingly hands-on with the operation, including a number of non-football departments reporting directly to them.
“You basically have a husband and wife in charge of various areas they don’t really understand — football, coaching, scouting, analytics, ticketing, marketing,” a team source told La Canfora. “And that’s the way they want it.”
Of course, any sense of uncertainty in the Browns organization is created by Haslam himself, since he’s done nothing to create the kind of stability people were hoping for there, considering his background as a partial owner of the Steelers.
He changes coaches and General Managers the way many people change the oil in their cars, and there hasn’t been a rebate in sight for Cleveland fans who have actually been able to enjoy success in other sports.
Below is the Pro Football Talk replay of the Canfora story. What I find interesting is reading the replies under the story...a lot of the same things we have been discussing in this thread...
But the interesting part will be whether Jackson is able to protect a guy he hand-picked for the job, amid the inevitable uncertainty that comes with being 0-10.
According to Jason La Canfora of CBSSports.com, Horton’s status and Jackson’s decision to bench rookie quarterback Cody Kessler last week have led to “heightened tension” within the Browns organization.
There’s also mention that owner Jimmy Haslam and his wife Dee have become increasingly hands-on with the operation, including a number of non-football departments reporting directly to them.
“You basically have a husband and wife in charge of various areas they don’t really understand — football, coaching, scouting, analytics, ticketing, marketing,” a team source told La Canfora. “And that’s the way they want it.”
Sure he does. You just offer rebates to customers and don't follow through on them.
There's no dysfunction/infighting internally; frustration over 0-10 yes, frankly there should be but building night & day different from '15
The problem is an article by JLC shouldn't cause people to automatically assume the worst, but because the Haslam's have created an environment where there has been constant infighting/dysfunction it is easy to believe.
This is where I disagree with you.....moneyball vs football has little to do with it if there is tension. Why do I believe that?? Because all the previous Haslam FO's have had pure "football" guys and they were constantly undermining each other.
The only constant between them is Haslam. For the time being I will take Darryl's word for it, because imo he's the best reporter the Brown's have.....but the situation bares watching based upon past infighting/dysfunction in Haslam FOs
All the talk about tension in the FO from La Can'tfora & the quoted sourced articles dissing Collins is directly linked to Lombardi, therefore to be dismissed out of hand, IMHO.
I think Kessler is struggling some adjusting to the speed of the game. In particular, I think he is having trouble with Safeties. I think it is exacerbated by how little he sees of NFL caliber play back there in practice. He often sees it three pressure packed (in just about all interpretations of the word) plays at a time on Sundays and not any time else in person.
Not only did he not get a ton of reps due to his place in the pecking order behind RG3 and McCown, when he did they were against sub par talent.
Unfortunately you can only fix so much at once. Hopefully we can get the backend shored up this coming offseason and will have a trickle down effect throughout the team (in particular at QB)
I agree on O-line. Get guys who are good and experienced. It will pay dividends on the field on Sunday. So sick of seeing our oline brain farts aka mistakes.
Hue drafted him and I have no problem if you wanna rip Hue for that.
vers...we don't that to be true...that it was Hue's choice to take Kessler over the other talent on the board.
I know Hue manned up and took all the criticism for the pick, but he might have doing it to help out "the boys".
Hue may have had another choice in mind and was overruled. I believe Hue sees himself as having broad shoulders, willing to take the heat and inquires from the media.
I happen to believe that Hue does a helluva job handling the media...but that does not mean that the fans and media are necessarily getting the straight scoop from Hue.
jmho
Sorry Mac. I don't disagree with you on many of your recent points, but Hue is the guy who picked the QB. You have to give that up. If Hue really wanted Wentz, Wentz would be a Brown today.
No, I have no real proof, but I think 90% around here agree. Keep on keeping one, but don't go there. Hue had more say in this past draft then did DePodesta.
Sorry Mac. I don't disagree with you on many of your recent points, but Hue is the guy who picked the QB.
peen...you don't know that to be true, but you are allowed your opinion, just like I am.
Quote:
If Hue really wanted Wentz, Wentz would be a Brown today.
The "draft strategy" belonged to Depodesta..trade down for more picks. It was Depodesta who commented that the Browns did not believe Wentz was a top 20 quality QB.
The analytics ruled the draft strategy, imo.
Then there is the Dak Prescott decision...no way do I believe Hue would watch video of Kessler and Prescott then draft Kessler over Prescott. NO ONE, had Kessler rated higher than Prescott on the various draft boards...GO LOOK FOR YOURSELF!
That decision was made by someone over Hue's pay grade..someone "stereo-typed" Prescott and declared him off limits because of the dui that was "never" a dui.
Kessler was taken two rounds before he was slated to come off the board..and that is another bizarre decision that I have a hard time believing Hue would make.
Looking at the performance of the Browns front office concerning how they judged QB talent is one of the main reasons I believe someone with "football experience" needs to be added to the front office.
Neither Depodesta or Sashi have enough experience to be in charge of the front office and Hue should be coaching the team, not making personnel judgments.
The Haslams are not qualified to be making front office decisions or draft picks.
Those who cannot see the void, are not looking close enough.
if everything one knew about our current situation was learned by reading the multiple pages of multiple threads about the front office, a person could not help but come to the conclusion that sashi brown, depo and their crew had taken a proud an quality organization and turned it into the pile of donkey dung that it now is. that this front office is the earthly manifestation of the devil.
the truth is that they have played a role but only a minor one. certainly letting Schwartz get away was a major mistake by the front office. imo their biggest one. our quarterback situation should be place squarely at the feet of our coach, hue. i am certain if hue had wanted wentz we would have taken him. i am certain if hue would have wanted Prescott in the third instead of Kessler we would have taken him. I think we will regret these quarterback decisions for a long time but they are not on the front office.
however, 60-70 percent of our plight has nothing to do with our current front office. it has to do with the drafting decisions made from 2011-2014. six first round picks. six!!! how many are currently helping the browns?? none! in fact i do not think any of them are starting anywhere. those six players should be the core of our team. three to five year veterans who are our impact players. the fact that they are not is the majority of the reason we suck. until we make better decisions in the draft we will continue to suck.
by the way, if you really want to make yourself nauseous,go back and look at who we took at those draft spots and who was sitting there to take that we did not pick.
the truth is that they have played a role but only a minor one. certainly letting Schwartz get away was a major mistake by the front office. imo their biggest one. our quarterback situation should be place squarely at the feet of our coach, hue.
xenia...Mistakes have been made in the past, not just the people drafted in the first round, but the many Browns players who did play well but not retained by the front office when they became free agents.
TJ Ward, Ahtyba Rubin, Jordan Cameron, Buster Skrine, Jabaal Sheard, Mitchell Schwartz, Tashaun Gibson, Travis Benjamin, Alex Mack
All of these players got the boot by the Browns within the last 3 years. The individual now in charge of the Browns 53 man roster was hired in Jan. 2013...in-part,to negotiate player contracts.
was Hue hired to establish the draft strategy for 2016?
did hue establish draft priorities?
was hue hired to negotiate player contracts?
I'm confident that you know the answer to all of these questions.
Sashi Brown is in charge of the 53 man roster...not Hue.
Depodesta is in charge of draft strategies/priorities.
...and from the sound of the latest article, Jimmy and Dee are in charge of everyone and everything.
So I am clear - you believe the person who negotiates the contracts - a specialist like many teams have - has a free role to sign and keep whichever players they choose? Right?
So I am clear - you believe the person who negotiates the contracts - a specialist like many teams have - has a free role to sign and keep whichever players they choose? Right?
Mac: I don't know if that was your intention but sorry, it sure sounded that way...
Cleveland Browns: Sashi Brown says team ‘on the right course’ despite 0-10 record By Jeff Schudel, The News-Herald & The Morning Journal POSTED: 11/14/16, 3:56 PM EST | UPDATED: 15 SECS AGO 0 Executive Vice President of Football Operations Sashi Brown met with reporters for nearly 40 minutes on Nov. 14, and boiled it down to one message. He said he is disappointed with the team’s 0-10 record, but is confident the Browns are on the right path to turn things around.
Brown took over a team that won just three of 21 games. He tore apart the roster bequeathed to him by former General Manager Ray Farmer and Coach Mike Pettine. Nineteen players on the 53-man roster are rookies.
“I’m not going to shy away from the disappointment in our start from a wins and losses perspective, but there are some real positive signs from what we’re seeing here in the building,” Brown said. “We’re disappointed, but we don’t take that as being deterred. We’re determined as ever.
“We always knew this was going to be a major challenge, where we sat with our roster, our cap situation and where we were standing at quarterback. We knew what we were undertaking. We always want to learn, but we are steadfast in our plan and we feel like we’re on the right course.”
Brown said he is confident fans will stick by the Browns despite the constant losing. The Browns have had only two winning seasons since 1999 and haven’t won a playoff game since 1994.
By contrast, the Cavaliers are defending NBA champions and the Indianswent to Game 7 of the 2016 World Series,
“Hats off to both those organizations,” Brown said. “We share families. The Cleveland sports scene is tremendous. It’s one of the things that attracted me the Cleveland Browns organization.
“I know it’s been tough for the fans. I don’t think we’re in danger of losing our fan base. I think we’re in privileged positions to have one of the best fan bases in the NFL. The days of winning are coming. I’m confident of that. We just have to stick with the plan and support our fans through the process.”
Brown attributed the large number of Dallas Cowboy fans in the stands on Nov. 6 and predictably a large number of Steelers fans in the stands on Nov. 20 as fans from those teams traveling well.
Sashi Brown Says Hue Jackson Not On Hot Seat; Continuity, Player Development At Heart Of Rebuild Plan November 14, 2016 3:50 PM By Daryl Ruiter | 92.3 The Fan
BEREA (92.3 The Fan) – For once the Cleveland Browns are going to see their plan through.
Even if it means 0-16.
So they say.
Browns executive vice president of football operations Sashi Brown said Monday that Hue Jackson is not going anywhere.
“He’ll be here,” Brown said. “We want a team of people that are going to be together for a long time. That has always been a disadvantage for us. As we look around our division, you don’t even have to go past the three teams in our division. Look at the continuity that they have.”
Jackson’s first year in Cleveland has seen the Browns extend their longest overall losing streak to 13 games and worst start in team history is currently at 0-10 as the prospects for a winless season grow by the day prompting speculation that Jackson could be on the hot seat.
“We are not focused on 0-16,” Brown said. “Hue is going to be here as our head coach. We talked about continuity being one of the core premises of what we wanted accomplished going out in January. We know that we have a head coach that can be successful here and lead us to a lot of victories and a lot of winning.”
Brown believes that owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam will stay the course despite what has turned into a season that no one could imagine at 0-10 and their propensity to fire people quickly. The Haslam’s have already fired 3 sets of GMs and coaches in 4 years.
“I’m confident we’ll have the opportunity to build it and we keep our ownership well-informed,” Brown said. “They also see the signs of progress.”
Those signs of progress are extremely difficult to see for a franchise that has now lost 28 of its last 31 games.
“It’s hard to look at this other than wins and losses,” Brown said. “I’m disappointed for our fans and the folks here working in the office. We don’t want to be here. But we also think we’re on the way to a much brighter future.”
Brown acknowledged that while they are disappointed in the record of the team, they knew the road to contention would be a long one.
“We always know this was going to be a major challenge,” Brown said.
Brown added that the Browns are “a very strong organization and can withstand anything,” and they “can’t fall into the trap of a quick build.”
Other quick notes from Brown Monday afternoon:
– Brown was asked to identify what ‘the plan’ is and it consists of 3 levels: 1. Change the culture, which Brown feels they have already done. 2. Focus on developing a core nucleus of players. 3. Commitment to the plan and continuity while maintaining a collaborative approach and continuing to bring in players with high character.
– Rookie quarterback Cody Kesser has impressed and “we’re really pleased with what he’s been able to do.” Brown cited Kessler’s poise, intelligence and ability to pick up the offense. Brown also believes he’ll be able to develop arm strength needed to be successful in the NFL.
“He’ll continue to work on that and for us I think Cody’s done some things,” Brown said. “There’s a lot of dimensions to playing quarterback in the league. We’re seeing a lot of quarterbacks be more successful in different ways. I think we all know that under our system pushing the ball down the field will be important, and I think that’ll develop in time. What I think is probably even more important than that is to be able to possess the ball and to move it without turning it over. So he’s done both those things and he’ll continue to develop. But he’s still young in his career. Certainly I don’t think you want to pass final judgment on someone after eight, 10 games.”
– They will continue to evaluate quarterbacks each year in the draft and look for ways to build depth at the position.
“All the teams in this league, whether you’re New England and you’ve got Tom Brady and you draft Brissett, whether you’re Philly and you’ve got Bradford and you draft Wentz, all the teams are always looking for quarterbacks,” Brown said. “We will be the same. There just aren’t enough of them. There’s no quarterback tree out there where you know you’re going to get one.”
– They do not regret their decision to trade the No. 2 pick to Philadelphia. “We like the players and positioning [in the future].” As for whether or not they will repeat the approach of stockpiling picks and forgoing elite talent at the top of the draft again, Brown said it’s too premature to entertain either approach because the evaluation of the upcoming draft class is not complete.
– Brown addressed criticisms they blew it in the draft by not keeping the No. 2 pick and taking elite impactful players like Carson Wentz, Ezekiel Elliott or Joey Bosa, who are off to tremendous starts to their careers.
“There are very few rookies and young players that hit the ground running,” Brown said. “There are certainly, kind of anecdotally, some isolated incidences of that. But a big piece of what we want to do is develop players over time.”
– Brown said he feels for fans and frustration of losing but remains confident loyal fans will remain.
“I know it’s been tough for the fans,” Brown said. “I don’t think we’re in danger of losing our fan base. I think we are in a really privileged position to have one of the best fan bases in the NFL. The winning ways are coming and the days are winning are coming. We’re confident in that. We just have to stick to the plan and support our fans through that process.”
The Browns are continuously losing, so looks like they got the continuity part down. I fail to see how they think they are making progress when they can't even win a game.
So I am clear - you believe the person who negotiates the contracts - a specialist like many teams have - has a free role to sign and keep whichever players they choose? Right?
They have been trying to make that stick for a while.
The theory is if you pretend they have had the job for longer you can call for their head quicker.
For the most part I think they stay the course but, I have a hunch that full evaluations take place at years' end and I wouldn't be surprised to see them tweak a few coaches in the mix. Hue will be safe, the majority of position coaches also but I think they may evaluate performance regardless of the talent that's been given. Interesting times.
Mac, you still seem to forget that DePodesta didn't have input in this last draft. He simply watched the process. He will have input in this draft.
I am not sticking up for the guy because I think he is worth it....I don't know if he is or isn't at this point. I am simply saying you are off base in placing any blame on him at this point.
And there is this call for getting and experienced football talent evaluator. I that that was the purpose of hiring Andrew Berry. He was the Colts Pro scouting Director for 4 years prior to the hire.
Ken Kovash was the Browns director of football research for 3 years.
They both currently have the title of Vice President of player personnel.
Neither count as experienced talent evaluators? If not, then what criteria qualifies someone for that distinction?
Cleveland Browns must not make huge changes, but must study mistakes -- Terry Pluto
Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer updated November 14, 2016 at 6:11 PM link
BEREA, Ohio -- I know it's part of the media's job to examine every word and comment when a general manager speaks during an 0-10 season.
That is happening after Cleveland Browns VP Sashi Brown spoke to the media on Monday.
Most of what he said was vague, because it makes little sense to make any major pronouncements about Cody Kessler or anyone else.
I asked him about Hue Jackson returning, and Brown said the coach would indeed be back.
Over the weekend, I wrote that owner Jimmy Haslam should tell Jackson, "Even if you don't win a game, you are the coach next year."
They can look at the coaching staff. Most teams make changes nearly every year in at least one of the assistant coaching positions.
There are reports Ray Horton could be in trouble. If the Browns decide to replace the defensive coordinator, that's not a sign of instability.
It might be a necessity, especially if the defense continues to look confused and sometimes disorganized.
Yes, the blame for having to call a timeout before the first play of the Baltimore game falls on Jackson. He is the head coach.
But Horton really is the head coach of the defense, granted a lot of power by Jackson. The Browns defense had 12 men on the field for the first play -- and had to call a timeout to avoid a penalty for too many players on the field.
That is Horton's department, along with whatever assistant on the sidelines was supposed to keep track of having the right players on the field.
So Jackson should be back ... period ... end of discussion.
I believe Haslam not only knows he would look foolish if he fired the coach -- he knows it would be foolish, even if the Browns finish 0-16.
WHAT ABOUT THE FRONT OFFICE?
Haslam made the decision to put rookies in charge of his football operation.
Sashi Brown is basically the general manager. He is an attorney and salary cap expert. He had not run a football front office before.
Paul DePodesta is the chief strategy officer. He comes from a baseball background.
Andrew Berry is the player personnel director. That's a step up from being the pro scouting director, his job with the Indianapolis Colts until hired by the Browns in January.
So let's think about this for a moment.
Haslam wanted a new approach to the front office. He put people from different backgrounds into traditional football positions.
What are the odds of them avoiding some rookie mistakes?
The answer is obvious.
But assuming these are bright, hard-working men dedicated to the job -- don't you think they'd improve?
I do.
I also don't even want to consider another nuclear option for the front office.
That's why Brown, DePodesta, etc need to absolutely, positively stay.
TAKE A HARD LOOK
But the front office must also go through the process of evaluating their approach to the 2016 draft.
Did the Browns really think Carson Wentz couldn't become a top 20 quarterback? That was what DePodesta told ESPN's Tony Grossi before the season. If that's the case, who made that decision based on what data.
It's far too early to know if Wentz will a Pro Bowl quarterback. But he has shown enough already to realize he is a viable, NFL starter. He has a chance to be far more than that.
A lot of the questions dealt with the Browns picking Cody Kessler over Dak Prescott.
Here's a list:
Jared Goff -- 0 starts Wentz -- 9 starts Paxton Lynch -- 1 start Christian Hackenberg -- 0 starts Jacoby Brissett -- 2 starts Cody Kessler -- 7 starts Connor Cook -- zero starts Dak Prescott -- 9 starts No quarterback drafted below Prescott (fourth round, No. 134 by the Dallas Cowboys) has played enough to matter.
A lot of teams and executives missed on Prescott, including Bill Belichcik of the New England Patriots. He took Brissett in the third round ahead of Prescott.
I would love to see the Browns' scouting reports on Prescott.
If they dismissed Prescott ... and if Wentz was indeed not even supposed to be an average NFL quarterback ... the Browns need to really revamp how they ranked their quarterbacks.
Meanwhile, Kessler is the third best quarterback in this draft -- based on the small sample of 10 games.
The top pick in the entire draft (Goff) has yet to take a snap in the regular season. He is the with Los Angeles Rams, who are 3-5. He is behind journeyman Case Keenum. The Rams traded up for Goff, yet he hasn't played.
Finding quarterbacks isn't easy, and the Browns must continue to examine their own system of scouting them.
THE OVERALL APPROACH
Fans won't like this because the team is 0-10, but I like the general direction of the Browns when it comes to the draft.
Pile up the picks, sort through the players.
Bring in guys cut by other teams who have promise -- such as Terrelle Pryor.
Brown is correct when he said you can't fully judge the Browns decision to pass on Wentz until a few years pass.
I write that being a Wentz fan.
I also write that knowing Corey Coleman has real potential. They also used picks from draft deals for Shon Coleman, Kessler and Derrick Kindred. They have first- and second-round picks in the 2017 draft after all the trades were made.
I have no clue if this combination of analytics, traditional scouting and a coaching staff led by Hue Jackson will work.
But I do know what will fail -- changing key parts of this front office/coaching staff again.
I am sure that writers read message boards....this one and others. It's a good way to get a feel for the pulse of the fans. They don't have time to do interviews on the street.
It would be stupid if they didn't devote a little time each day/week reading the boards. I doubt they are very active as posters but wouldn't be surprised if they added a comment or two every now and then.
The Browns are continuously losing, so looks like they got the continuity part down. I fail to see how they think they are making progress when they can't even win a game.
Zero progress, only regression. They aren't football people though, so they don't realize that or that you have to win games in the NFL. At least theh have a nifty computer program and some spreadsheets to do all their scouting for them and tell them what 2nd and 3rd tier scrubs to draft.
Let us hope that Haslam rumor is true and that he isn't going to accept one of the worst failures in NFL history and stay status quo. 0-16 and you have no choice but to clean house. It is obvious their grand computer generated plan is a failure. 3-13 to 0-16 kinda says it all....
“There are very few rookies and young players that hit the ground running,” Brown said. “There are certainly, kind of anecdotally, some isolated incidences of that. But a big piece of what we want to do is develop players over time.”
Passing on impact players and drafting guys that need time to develop is controversial, at best.
I hope that the Browns draft two impact players w/their first round picks this year instead of trading down and getting future picks and extra 3rd and 4th rounders that are just guys.
The Browns are continuously losing, so looks like they got the continuity part down. I fail to see how they think they are making progress when they can't even win a game.
Zero progress, only regression. They aren't football people though, so they don't realize that or that you have to win games in the NFL. At least theh have a nifty computer program and some spreadsheets to do all their scouting for them and tell them what 2nd and 3rd tier scrubs to draft.
Let us hope that Haslam rumor is true and that he isn't going to accept one of the worst failures in NFL history and stay status quo. 0-16 and you have no choice but to clean house. It is obvious their grand computer generated plan is a failure. 3-13 to 0-16 kinda says it all....
Is it really all that simple and obvious? Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 in his first season as head coach of the Cowboys...
I'm not saying Hue Jackson will be Jimmy Johnson, but I find holes in your black and white logic.
I'd have to go to Streetsboro or Kent to get one though. There are none closer than that.
I can't eat them anymore, but I used to go to the one of the two in Maple Heights when I worked up there. One is at Southgate shopping center and the other is kinda close to the Harley dealer on 43.
Haslam made the decision to put rookies in charge of his football operation.
Sashi Brown is basically the general manager. He is an attorney and salary cap expert. He had not run a football front office before.
Paul DePodesta is the chief strategy officer. He comes from a baseball background.
Andrew Berry is the player personnel director. That's a step up from being the pro scouting director, his job with the Indianapolis Colts until hired by the Browns in January.
So let's think about this for a moment.
Haslam wanted a new approach to the front office. He put people from different backgrounds into traditional football positions.
What are the odds of them avoiding some rookie mistakes?
The answer is obvious.
But assuming these are bright, hard-working men dedicated to the job -- don't you think they'd improve?
I do.
I also don't even want to consider another nuclear option for the front office.
That's why Brown, DePodesta, etc need to absolutely, positively stay.
Sashi said it himself...
......THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE......
That applies to the front office more than any other group in this franchise.
All we have to do is look at their "horrible" judgement concerning the QB position. There horrible judgement filling the offensive line needs. There horrible decision to spend 5 draft picks on WRs and virtually ignore the defensive backfield.
The decisions the front office made in free agency and in the draft are a direct reflection upon the "EXPERIENCE LEVEL" of those named above.
So, how does the franchise fix this problem...A LACK OF NFL EXPERIENCE?
...does the group running the franchise simply sit on their ass and wait for the Harvard Boys to gain the needed experience to compete with other front offices in the NFL?
The sad part, we are asking those running the franchise to judge their own performance...will they be bias...blame others for the decisions they made in free agency and in the draft?
...or will they be honest and admit, their lack of experience lead to the decisions they made on free agency and the draft. Will the Harvard Boys look at themselves and admit, they need help in the front office?
My guess is, the 3 named in this article will be arrogant as hell, believing they had the best free agency and draft in the NFL...and not change a damn thing!..it was all someone else's fault
The FO does need experience too no doubt but hey are not at fault for missing the field goal against Miami, or fumbling inside the 10 yard line against Washington or blowing a 20 point lead against Baltimore. That rests squarely on the players 1st and then the coaches. If we had won those games and had 3 wins there wouldn't be nearly as much anger and negativity around this team. I know we didn't win them but let's face it, we probably should have or at least 2.
The FO does need experience too no doubt but hey are not at fault for missing the field goal against Miami, or fumbling inside the 10 yard line against Washington or blowing a 20 point lead against Baltimore. That rests squarely on the players 1st and then the coaches. If we had won those games and had 3 wins there wouldn't be nearly as much anger and negativity around this team. I know we didn't win them but let's face it, we probably should have or at least 2.
We aren't totally devoid of experience.. We have Andrew Berry (he probably doesn't count because he's another Harvard guy).
We also have Hue Jackson as well. Not a slouch at all.
Discussing this is a little like twisting in the wind LOL.
For the record (and yes, this may come back to bite me)I'm of the belief that this approach is as good as any we've tried in the last 16 years. But this one will take time to see what happens.
Haslam made the decision to put rookies in charge of his football operation.
Sashi Brown is basically the general manager. He is an attorney and salary cap expert. He had not run a football front office before.
Paul DePodesta is the chief strategy officer. He comes from a baseball background.
Andrew Berry is the player personnel director. That's a step up from being the pro scouting director, his job with the Indianapolis Colts until hired by the Browns in January.
So let's think about this for a moment.
Haslam wanted a new approach to the front office. He put people from different backgrounds into traditional football positions.
What are the odds of them avoiding some rookie mistakes?
The answer is obvious.
But assuming these are bright, hard-working men dedicated to the job -- don't you think they'd improve?
I do.
I also don't even want to consider another nuclear option for the front office.
That's why Brown, DePodesta, etc need to absolutely, positively stay.
Sashi said it himself...
......THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE......
That applies to the front office more than any other group in this franchise.
All we have to do is look at their "horrible" judgement concerning the QB position. There horrible judgement filling the offensive line needs. There horrible decision to spend 5 draft picks on WRs and virtually ignore the defensive backfield.
The decisions the front office made in free agency and in the draft are a direct reflection upon the "EXPERIENCE LEVEL" of those named above.
So, how does the franchise fix this problem...A LACK OF NFL EXPERIENCE?
...does the group running the franchise simply sit on their ass and wait for the Harvard Boys to gain the needed experience to compete with other front offices in the NFL?
The sad part, we are asking those running the franchise to judge their own performance...will they be bias...blame others for the decisions they made in free agency and in the draft?
...or will they be honest and admit, their lack of experience lead to the decisions they made on free agency and the draft. Will the Harvard Boys look at themselves and admit, they need help in the front office?
My guess is, the 3 named in this article will be arrogant as hell, believing they had the best free agency and draft in the NFL...and not change a damn thing!..it was all someone else's fault
I know the bottom line is wins - but there is a team being built here. Again having to go with our 3rd string QB and rookie for most the season doesn't help. Our DB got hurt as well. Before we point the finger and state 0-10 ergo the worst predicament for the future we ever had is not true.
Remember we have 19 rookies on our 53 man roster...just taking a guess but I think that is an NFL record! Shelton looking good. Coleman looking good, Ogbah looking good. So if you think we are still blowing our draft picks and not getting our worth out of it I think you are wrong. And we got what another 4 top 60 picks next year also?
Just wish to see RG3 in there after the bye...got to see more than 3 quarters.
Your as bad as mac with this BS ... we all know who he is ... all u do is more clutter to his BS ...
I'm the guy on this message board who brings up subjects for discussion months before the local media begins to write about those very same subjects.
So many look at a situation and see nothing but hearts and roses, falling in love with whatever Haslam is feeding you and become an instant "follower"
I'm not a follower...I think about situations and recognize potential issues and voice my opinion. I don't care who makes fun or who says whatever. Your comments reflect more upon your knowledge and experience, not on mine.
I welcome the Cleveland media to this conversation about the front office's experience level...about time.
The Browns are continuously losing, so looks like they got the continuity part down. I fail to see how they think they are making progress when they can't even win a game.
Zero progress, only regression. They aren't football people though, so they don't realize that or that you have to win games in the NFL. At least theh have a nifty computer program and some spreadsheets to do all their scouting for them and tell them what 2nd and 3rd tier scrubs to draft.
Let us hope that Haslam rumor is true and that he isn't going to accept one of the worst failures in NFL history and stay status quo. 0-16 and you have no choice but to clean house. It is obvious their grand computer generated plan is a failure. 3-13 to 0-16 kinda says it all....
Is it really all that simple and obvious? Jimmy Johnson went 1-15 in his first season as head coach of the Cowboys...
I'm not saying Hue Jackson will be Jimmy Johnson, but I find holes in your black and white logic.
This staff couldn't lace Jimmy's shoes. JJ's Cowboys showed progress in numerous aspects of the game and clear improvement. Name one thing Hue Jacksom and the Harvard Boys have improved upon. Right, they haven't.
"His ability to create better processes and systems throughout organizations, his use of data as a tool to produce better outcomes, and his relentless focus on looking for innovative ways to create more success will be a strong asset as we look to be as comprehensive as possible in our decision making. “Additionally, Paul will help members of our player development, high performance and analytics departments maximize their efforts. There are many areas that we have not fully capitalized on that will enhance the growth and performance of our players over time.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_DePodesta "In reality, DePodesta played football in college and wanted to be a football coach,[13][15][16] seen in a photo wearing number 17.[17] After graduating from Harvard with a degree in economics, he became an intern for the Canadian Football League's Baltimore Stallions in 1995.[18]"
Without his 20 year baseball library he went from scout to Assistant GM under John Hart in 3 years and then was hired into the same job in Oakland where he made history.
He sounds more experienced to be Chief Strategy Officer than just about anyone else on the planet.
Sashi Brown Senior Vice President And General Counsel Jaguars 7 years, Executive Vice President and General Counsel at Cleveland Browns 4 years
Not exactly a newbie coming in either.
Andrew Berry Vice President Player Personnel Played Conerback for Harvard, 3 All Ivy League CB
4 years as Colts' Pro Scouting Coordinator 7 years in Colts scouting dept
"Andrew's really special," he told The Harvard Crimson. "For my two cents, he'll be running an NFL team in 15 years. At 37 years old, he'll be running an NFL franchise. I have no question."
"But I was told the Colts used very little analytics. They are more of a traditional football front office. Berry did normal scouting. But the Harvard background clearly makes him open to the new way the Browns will be doing business."
It appears that he is a football guy with experience.
Ken Kovash Vice President, Player Personnel Last 3 years as the Browns director of football research 3 years with the Dallas Cowboys as the team's senior analytics manager.
Kevin Meers Director of Research and Strategy 3 Years Analytics with the Browns 1 Year Analytics with Dallas Cowboys
1 year scouting for Ravens 12 years scouting for Browns
Bobby Vega Director of College Scouting 9 years Cleveland Browns
Dan Saganey Director of Pro Scouting 7 years Scouting Cleveland Browns 3 years Coaching College
Mike Cetta Director of Scouting 4 years Scouting Cleveland Browns
Glenn Cook Assistant Director of Scouting 4 years in the Pro personnel department for the Packers as Assistant Director of Scouting, 1 year scout for Colts, 1 year playing minor league baseball for the Cubs
Zach Ayers Scout 4 years scout, HS coach 5 years
Charles Bailey Scout Pro personnel director for the Jacksonville Jaguars from 2003-08,10 years with the Pittsburgh Steelers as a scout and pro personnel coordinator, the vice president of football operations and assistant general manager of the New Orleans Saints 1999-2003
Zac Bocian Scout I could not find anything on this guy
Colton Chapple BLESTO Scout 3 years Scout
Lake Dawson Scout WR Chiefs 1994–1998, WR Colts 1999-2001, Pro Personnel Assistant Seahawks 2001-2005, Assistant Director of Pro Personnel Seahawks 2005-2007, Director of Pro Personnel 2007-2011, Vice President of Football Operations Titans 2011-2012, Vice President of Player Personnel Titans 2012-2015
Sam DeLuca Scout 3 years Scout, 3 years Intern Eagles
Ron Hill Scout Hill comes to the Browns with 34 years of experience as an NFL scout and player personnel executive, most recently serving as the NFL’s vice president of football operations. Hill began his career as a college scout for the Dallas Cowboys, and then worked his way up to regional scout and assistant director of player personnel with the Denver Broncos. He then worked as the Jacksonville Jaguars’ director of pro personnel before serving as the Atlanta Falcons’ vice president of football operations and vice president of player personnel for seven years. Over the course of his time on NFL personnel staffs, Hill has been a part of 10 conference championship berths and four Super Bowls.
Gerald McCully Scout 32 years of various coaching jobs in HS, College and Arena League, 7 years running various football camps, 17 years scouting for the Arena League, 1 year scouting for the Browns
Patrick Moore Scout 13 years various college coaching jobs, 3 years scouting
Marshall Oium Scout QB University of Chicago, 3 years scouting
I'm the guy on this message board who brings up subjects for discussion months before the local media begins to write about those very same subjects.
Yeah, but your subject is always the same. That crook Haslem and those brains he hired to run the FO. Pretty easy to be first when the subject never changes.
The Browns' decision to pass on Carson Wentz in the draft combined with the rookie's sterling performance against them in Week 1, a potential season-ending injury to Browns starter Robert Griffin III and comments from Browns official Paul DePodesta intimating the Browns didn't believe Wentz would be a "top-20 quarterback" have created a tempest in Cleveland. As it turns out, not everyone involved in scouting quarterbacks in Cleveland before the 2016 draft was in agreement.
According to numerous sources with knowledge of the situation, several of the more seasoned scouts and evaluators the Browns parted with prior to the draft -- an unusual time to release such employees -- actually preferred Wentz to quarterback Jared Goff and believed him to be the greater pro prospect. It was clear to many in the organization dating back to December, when the Browns held intense draft meetings, that the newly-empowered analytics department, soon to be spearheaded by DePodesta, strongly preferred Goff. And new coach Hue Jackson and his offensive coordinator, Pep Hamilton, were not high on Wentz but prized Goff, sources said, and made that clear to the rest of the organization.
The Browns opted to release six members of the organization -- many of them experienced, old-school scouts -- just three weeks before the draft. At the time, they were bailing on the quarterback market in the draft (and Wentz in particular) and shopping their second-overall pick to other teams. Many of those men, a group that included former general managers and personnel directors, had never met DePodesta personally before being let go, and, with their contracts set to expire after the draft, they were going to be let go in 2016 as part of downsizing anyway.
But the timing of their release raised eyebrows then and continues to generate chatter now given the high-profile way in which their quarterback decision has played out and the fact that the segment of personnel they let go were more pro-Wentz than others.
Wentz has played just one game, and will surely face some hurdles in his rookie season, but the reviews on his debut were overly positive. The Browns could end up with the first pick in the draft, and evaluators are already gushing over Notre Dame junior quarterback DeShone Kizer. The Browns will almost certainly be taking a passer very high in 2017.
Disagree with the new boys and your fired!
The more experienced scouts who preferred Wentz...gone. The way it worked out, the only thing worse than passing on Wentz may have been "taking Goff", which was what the "analytics boys" wanted to do.
...think about that when you start to praise these guys for their ability to judge football talent.
and, with their contracts set to expire after the draft, they were going to be let go in 2016 as part of downsizing anyway.
At that point, the scouting was over. I don't see any real story here. I understand there may have been disagreement on who the better prospect was, but at that point the discussion with the scouts is largely over. A week or two before the draft isn't the time to be in a room with 20 people discussing scouting reports. At that time you are down to the inner circle of people are are going to make the decision.
Letting them go a few weeks early was doing them a favor. Scouts are hire from draft to draft. Only a slim few have contracts that run over 1 year. At the end of the draft you have many scouts seeking new employment. Our former guys got a 2 week head start on calling their buddies around the league to find another job.
Scouts are hire from draft to draft. Only a slim few have contracts that run over 1 year. At the end of the draft you have many scouts seeking new employment.
Is that really true? Does anyone have a link that talks about almost all scouts being fired each year?
Disagree with those using "analytics"...and your gone!
Don't have a background in analytics...and your gone!
If you are an experienced scout who uses the old fashion eye test...your gone and you need not apply in Cleveland.
To me, looks like the Browns do not have much of a blend when it comes to judging talent...it is all analytics.
...analytics would have led to the Browns drafting Goff over Wentz. Turns out, they guys Sashi fired got it right about Wentz.
It was a dumb, stupid move to let scouts go early, before the draft. Who would know more about the Browns draft than a scout, cutting them lose allowed other teams to discuss what they knew about the Browns draft board.
The scouting is over when you reach the end of the contract on the expiration date...unless your given the boot before the draft.
I just did some research and I couldn't find anything that said that most NFL scouts are let go each year. Then again, I didn't see anything that said they were retained each year.
A couple of things to note:
--I typed in "are NFL scouts fired each year" and almost all the articles on the first page were about the Browns. There was one about that mentioned the Titans and another that mentioned the Bears.
--I came across some information that Depo fired the guys w/out actually ever meeting them.
--Other NFL teams brought in the fired scouts and were "picking their brains" about the Brown's draft plans.
--Depo and the analytics guys wanted to streamline the scouting department, which tells me they want to rely less on scouting reports and more on sports-science, high-performance, and analytics.
THU NOV. 17, 2016Started From the Bottom, Now the Cleveland Browns Are ... Still There
The loyal and long-suffering fans in the Dawg Pound have been promised hope and change far too many times. But Hue Jackson won’t stop believing, even if the Browns go 0-16
Each week during this 0-10 season, Hue Jackson has received a text message from Jim Haslam, the father of the man who owns the Cleveland Browns. The elder Haslam is 85 years old and lives in Knoxville, Tenn., but he’s taken the occasion of each week’s loss to reassure the head coach who was hired by his son to lead this team.
Hang in there.
This is tough.
There are better days ahead.
Jackson saves these messages on his phone, along with those sent by team owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam. “I keep them,” Jackson says, “because when it is dark, I can open my phone and go find them.”
This season has tested Jackson, a man so optimistic that he has steadfastly refused to use the word rebuild since he was hired in January. That’s unmistakably what this season is—a teardown, in the hopes of building a solid structure from the ground up. But even by Browns’ standards, a franchise that is on its ninth head coach since returning to the NFL in 1999, the extent of this makeover is staggering.
“I have never seen anything even close to this,” says left tackle Joe Thomas, whose 10 seasons in Cleveland make him the longest-tenured Brown. “It is probably one of the most extreme rebuilds in NFL history.”
The Browns began the 2016 season with 17 rookies on their 53-man roster, the highest of any team since the 2002 Ravens (Baltimore finished 7-9 that year). Going into Week 11, the Browns now have 19 rookies who comprise more than one-third of their roster; the 29 players with two or fewer seasons of experience make up more than half their roster. And many of these young players are playing significant roles. Twelve rookies have made a total of 46 starts this season, including seven by QB Cody Kessler; all told, Browns rookies have amassed more than 3,000 snaps of playing time.
Consider this admission by Sashi Brown, the executive VP of football operations, that registers as either stunning or painfully self-aware: “We are not focused on wins and losses this year.”
The narrative around the Browns is one of morbid curiosity: Will they win a game or will they earn the dubious distinction of joining the 2008 Lions as the only 0-16 teams in NFL history? A more important question looms, however. Can this rebuild actually succeed?
Talk about The Plan flows freely out of the Browns’ home on Lou Groza Boulevard. Sashi Brown and Hue Jackson avow firmly that the organization is committed to the long-term view from ownership on down, even as it has reaped no early returns in the win column. “We are not going to blink,” Brown says. “No one is panicked here.”
The Plan was implemented following the Browns’ 3-13 finish in 2015. It was their eighth straight losing season, and an accumulation of draft misses had eroded the talent on the roster. Instead of getting stuck in the “cyclical monotony” of chasing “fleeting mediocrity” through free agency, as Brown put it, they decided to start anew. In other words, the Browns opted for a total demolition instead of installing new countertops or painting the cabinets.
Jackson, known for getting the most out of the players he’s coached no matter the position, was last offseason’s big acquisition. The team also promoted Brown from general counsel and hired former baseball exec Paul DePodesta as chief strategy officer. The front office went all in on building through the draft while letting four starters—right tackle Mitchell Schwartz, center Alex Mack, receiver Travis Benjamin and safety Tashaun Gipson—walk in free agency. The team put a premium on draft capital, trading the No. 2 overall pick and turning it into a haul of current and future picks, including an extra first-rounder in 2017 and extra second-rounders in ’17 and ’18. The way forward was clear: The new regime was going to pick its own players and build from the ground up.
It’s unwise to evaluate a draft even as recently as a year out. But the early-season success of quarterback Carson Wentz, taken by Philadelphia in the No. 2 spot that the Browns traded away, did not earn any credibility points for an organization that is perennially searching for a QB—they’ve cycled through 26 starters since 1999, and three this season—nor did it quiet the anti-analytics crowd. Plus, some of the young ascending players the Browns let go in favor of handpicking their own core, have been thriving in other cities. Taylor Gabriel, for example, was released by the Browns during final cuts and claimed by the Falcons, who have used him as a valuable speed receiver to alleviate some safety attention on Julio Jones.
“We always look back on our decisions,” Brown says, when asked about passing on Wentz. “You try to be as thorough as possible going in, and as humble as possible coming out. Are there things we could have, and should have, done differently? That said, we really like the decision we made. I think it’s dangerous to start evaluating decisions once you have information you didn’t have going into them. And our trade, really, hasn’t even borne all its fruits.”
In other words: Wentz is doing well, but give The Plan a chance. Asking for trust and patience from a fan base that has been fooled so many times is a tough proposition. So is changing the culture among a team with 19 rookies who have yet to experience a winning locker room on a Sunday afternoon. Jackson worries about the impact of the losing on the young players. He says he’s talked about that with his top lieutenants on the coaching staff, and with his players. They’ve competed hard and held halftime leads in four games; they’ve also kept four of their games within one score, including an OT loss in Miami. “The team is filled with rookies,” Thomas says with a half-smile. “They’re still trying to prove they can have a place in the NFL.”
In Baltimore last Thursday night, the Browns’ defense had to burn a timeout on the first play from scrimmage because they had 12 men on the field. Kessler was yanked from the game in the third quarter and replaced with veteran Josh McCown, because Kessler was struggling to execute the offense at a fast enough pace after a short week of preparation. Undrafted rookie Briean Boddy-Calhoun, whom the Browns claimed on waivers in September and is now their nickel cornerback, made a fantastic interception early in the game, but later gave up two touchdown passes. Inability to close out games is a symptom of a young team.
For veterans like Thomas and cornerback Joe Haden, who is now playing his seventh season in Cleveland, the rebuilding seems perpetual. Every year around the trade deadline, including this one, their names have been mentioned as potential trade bait. They politely say that they try not to think about potential distractions; that they only worry about what they can control; that they would love to bring a winner to the Browns’ loyal and long-suffering fans. And every year, including this one, the trade deadline passes with no move.
“I am here for a reason,” Haden said in the visitors’ locker room in Baltimore. “S---, I just gotta try to get us out of this [skid].”
Patience has never been a virtue of the Cleveland Browns. Since purchasing the team in 2012, Haslam has fired three different head coaches and general managers. Nor is patience a virtue of this business. Jackson knows that firsthand: He was fired by the Raiders from his first head-coaching job after just one 8-8 season.
Before he took the job in Cleveland, Jackson said Jimmy and Dee Haslam told him they were committed to giving him time to see The Plan through. In other words, even if this team finishes 0-16, Jackson is confident he’ll be at the helm next season and beyond. “I never would have taken this job if I didn’t know that, and if I didn’t have assurance of that,” Jackson says. “I know that, without question. That’s not what I have ever been concerned about. They said, ‘Hue, we are going to do this the right way. It might take a little time to get it to where it needs to be, but we are comfortable and confident in you, and you are the guy we want to have here to lead this team and this organization.’ That’s comforting.”
So, what’s the timeline?
Neither Jackson nor Brown wanted to put the Browns on a clock. But you’d figure a businessman like Jimmy Haslam, who was not made available to speak for this story, would need to see the plan taking shape within two to three seasons. There is still a full-scale investment in this course of action, even down to a scouting staff that is listed on the team website as having 18 scouts and 11 scouting assistants—at least double the size of most teams’ scouting staffs in the league. But a recent CBS report by Jason La Canfora described low organizational morale as the Haslams are taking hands-on control of several departments from football analytics to marketing; the report also revealed heightening “tension” in the building, particularly between the front office and the coaching staff. The marriage of a former Moneyball exec and an old-school football guy such as Jackson has the potential for disagreements. Brown’s response: “I hope there would be a tension, just from losing.”
The team’s public vow to stick to The Plan doesn’t mean the way this season has unfolded won’t inform future personnel strategy. The trade for linebacker Jamie Collins earlier this month, for example, was an indication that the Browns may be more aggressive in adding talent heading into the second offseason under this regime. They’re projected to have nearly $65 million in salary cap space available for re-signing players they view as building blocks, such as Collins and wideout Terrelle Pryor, and their reserves of draft capital could help them if they decide to make a play for a trade target such as Patriots QB Jimmy Garoppolo.
Jackson says this season has tested him “emotionally, physically, spiritually.” He spent the offseason rehabilitating Robert Griffin III, only to have the quarterback be sidelined with a shoulder injury in Week 1. You can’t coach talent, and right now, the Browns don’t have enough. Late in last week’s 28-7 loss to Baltimore, as the Ravens were running out the clock, Jackson stood quietly on the sideline with his cheeks puffed out—a rare public view into a pain unlike any other he’s experienced in football.
“I hope this is the only time I ever have to feel this way,” Jackson says. “I get that we are in this process, and it’s something I signed up for, and you have to do everything you can to see it through. I don’t run from it. I don’t think a lot could do it. I don’t think a lot would understand it, or want to tackle it.”
Jackson meets with Jimmy Haslam three to four times a week. “When you can sit down with people, and they get your fear, they get your doubt, they get your hurt, your feelings, I think it says a lot,” Jackson says. “Those are the kind of people I work with every day.”
But after the losses, Jackson has done something that reflects on his own personal confidence. In private moments, he’s told opposing players and coaches a simple message: “You better get me now. Because this organization is coming back. I promise you that.”
actually preferred Wentz to quarterback Jared Goff and believed him to be the greater pro prospect.
Quote:
with their contracts set to expire after the draft, they were going to be let go in 2016 as part of downsizing anyway.
These are the only two parts of the article that are relevant to me. Some of the scouts (and Hue) liked Goff. The others liked Wentz. Nothing in the article says that all scouts who liked Wentz were fired. I'm sure there are some in the building still employed that may have liked Wentz over Goff. I also wouldn't be surprised some that weren't retained might have liked Goff. Nothing in this article or in Mac's speculation says scouts were fired simply because they liked Wentz.
What is common is not all scouts are retained after regime changes. Some leave, some come onboard. I can't comment with certainty if it's uncommon that scouts are let go three weeks before the draft because I don't follow other teams. I certainly won't take JLC word for it. With that said, I don't think it's that good of an idea to let scouts go who have information about your draft board. What if they get paid by a team that is selecting just before or after your pick and know what we're thinking and who we like? Or any team for that matter that just has more info on your tendencies.
Scouts are hire from draft to draft. Only a slim few have contracts that run over 1 year. At the end of the draft you have many scouts seeking new employment.
Is that really true? Does anyone have a link that talks about almost all scouts being fired each year?
I don't think Peen is accurate on this. I will say that when you have a regime change, which we did, that almost always, the scouts that the new regime doesn't think fit, are released. Nothing unusual about that really.
Peen is probably correct about them being released early. It gave them a leg up on other scouts that will be looking for a new job.
As for the article that Mac posted, LaConfora is all that needs said. I'm not sure why, but that guy sure seems to hate the Browns.
If you are an experienced scout who uses the old fashion eye test...your gone and you need not apply in Cleveland.
Because those scouts on the staff that used the old-fashioned eye test in the past have generally paid dividends for us, right?
Maybe it's not just about analytics and the fact that the new FO looked at players drafted in the past two or three years and didn't like the results or who they personally recommended.
Consider this admission by Sashi Brown, the executive VP of football operations, that registers as either stunning or painfully self-aware: “We are not focused on wins and losses this year.”
The guy should be fired right now...he never should have been hired to begin with.
Thats loser mentality right there...He is not trying, and he doesn't even care, and the product he has put on the field shows.....
Accepting losing for any reason just makes you a loser....
Every year you should be putting the best product you possibly can on the field by any means or resources available to you with sole intention of winning....period...
I don't want ANYONE running this team that thinks is OK to lose for any reason...I don't give a damn if you want to tank for a 1st rd pick...its NEVER acceptable to lose....not only has this doofus short changed the lockeroom, and the coaching staff, but they have short changed the fans and this city give them a steaming pile of dung....with no guarantees that dung will ever change.
Say what you will about past regimes, even Shurmur....they didn't ever tank purposley...all of them tried to win every damn game, and used every resource they had to try and field a team that would at least try and win
Firing them now would be stupid. Haslam and the FO knew that the plan they put in place would take multiple years to work. No one thought they would win this year.
To fire anyone now would just result in setting the team back yet anther year.
I don't know if their plan is good or not. I see some things I like and some things I don't like. However, after choosing a plan, you gotta have the fortitude to stick with it.
What gets me Mac...is you think your opinion is fact and other opinions are "Spin".
I mean make your case but you have nobody to debate with cause if they make a case you don't even address it...Automatically its spin. Man your agenda against the FO is lame. btw did any Scouts get let go that didn't like Wentz?
I'm not sure about the one year contract Peen Mentioned...it could be so or not. What I do know is their fiscal year contractually is different than the rest of the organization. Immediately after the draft is when those whose contracts will run out...
Also the case there was not that they wanted us to pick Wentz at two or not - the case is they preferred Wentz to Goff.
btw...what standard are you using that Wentz is the better QB. Me personally before the draft and after thought so but Goff has not taken the field of play yet how can you assess that as a fact???
eo...the analytics crew made the decision to pass on Wentz.
Given the fact that the Browns #1 need going into the 2016 draft was a franchise QB, today, it appears that the stat boys were face to face with a franchise QB, holding the #2 pick in the draft and Wentz setting at #2, waiting to be drafted.
With all their formulas and analytic charts and graphs, Depodesta, Sashi and Andrew Berry were staring at a potential (Browns) franchise QB for the next 10 yrs... ...and they had no clue, trading away the pick.
With all their analytics, they missed on Wentz...what the hell does that say about analytics?
To me, the front offices choice screams the need for something more than just "analytics" in the front office...,maybe something like an experienced football guy to help balance the front office.
To me, the front offices choice screams the need for something more than just "analytics" in the front office...,maybe something like an experienced football guy to help balance the front office.
They do have more than analytics. You just choose to cover your eyes about it. The larger question is if those football guys in the scouting department are actually good or not. The football experience is there....didn't you seem Deputy's post? The execution is still up in the air.
He knows the football experience is there, he just does this to keep calling attention to himself. I stated that before. He craves attention, so he keeps blabbing away.
Of course I read your post. It was just two sentences that didn't really offer much substance, which is why I asked for clarification. However, it doesn't look like you've taken the time to read the prior posts that triggered bleed to respond the way he did. The reason is varied comment is not what is being discussed. It's actually a vary narrow POV mac has. That's what is being debated.
I don't know how you can respond the way to did (quite frankly to both us) not really knowing the substance of the back-n-forth. But whatever!
Firing them now would be stupid. Haslam and the FO knew that the plan they put in place would take multiple years to work. No one thought they would win this year.
To fire anyone now would just result in setting the team back yet anther year.
I don't know if their plan is good or not. I see some things I like and some things I don't like. However, after choosing a plan, you gotta have the fortitude to stick with it.
Well, Sashi did say "We would be very disappointed if we have four wins. " back in August in response to people claiming the Browns were going to tank this season. Apparently he thought we would get some wins.
The only choice is go go forward with this mess. Right now, I have zero faith these guys are going to get it right.
Firing them now would be stupid. Haslam and the FO knew that the plan they put in place would take multiple years to work. No one thought they would win this year.
To fire anyone now would just result in setting the team back yet anther year.
I don't know if their plan is good or not. I see some things I like and some things I don't like. However, after choosing a plan, you gotta have the fortitude to stick with it.
Well, Sashi did say "We would be very disappointed if we have four wins. " back in August in response to people claiming the Browns were going to tank this season. Apparently he thought we would get some wins.
The only choice is go go forward with this mess. Right now, I have zero faith these guys are going to get it right.
Oh I knew the back and forth. So far history has shown that to date, since our return, all detractors about regimes and coaching staffs that have put them in a negative light have been 100% correct.
The reasoning has little to do with their perfect prediction rate. You see, you seem to feel I have a horse in this race. Actually the best thing for all of us would be that mac is totally wrong.
I didn't make the news, I just report it. To date, those who had reservations about every prior regime has been 100% correct. Those who have slung mud at them and questioned them have been 100% wrong.
No, I don't think you have a horse in the race. If you did, I wouldn't know which one, nor have the desire to dwell on it.
I think you are bringing up something that has nothing to do with why people are replying to mac the way that they are. No one would deny that those questioning past regimes have been 100% correct. But that's not source of contention here.
Not sure why there has to be a source of contention. How about one guy states his opinions and another guys states his opinions and leave the contentious out of it?
I realize that I have been part of such contentious, but if you think about it, the board would be a lot better if we leave that out of our posts and just post our beliefs. I am not saying this in a mean-spirited way. It's just sometimes in life you realize what is important and what isn't.
Scouts are hire from draft to draft. Only a slim few have contracts that run over 1 year. At the end of the draft you have many scouts seeking new employment.
Is that really true? Does anyone have a link that talks about almost all scouts being fired each year?
I don't know, peen. As a teacher, I worked on one year contracts every year of my career. However, unless I really screwed up or if I was low on the totem pole and there were budget cuts, there was no way I wasn't going to be retained.
It seems stupid to think that teams would replace the majority of their scouting staff each year. Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt if that is the way it works.
I don't know, peen. As a teacher, I worked on one year contracts every year of my career. However, unless I really screwed up or if I was low on the totem pole and there were budget cuts, there was no way I wasn't going to be retained.
It seems stupid to think that teams would replace the majority of their scouting staff each year. Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt if that is the way it works.
I am not saying all, or maybe even many don't get retained, but i have read several times that your typical scout is retained to a 1 year contract....draft to draft. Obviously if you do a good job and nothing changes in the FO, you get another 1 year deal.
I don't know, peen. As a teacher, I worked on one year contracts every year of my career. However, unless I really screwed up or if I was low on the totem pole and there were budget cuts, there was no way I wasn't going to be retained.
It seems stupid to think that teams would replace the majority of their scouting staff each year. Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt if that is the way it works.
I am not saying all, or maybe even many don't get retained, but i have read several times that your typical scout is retained to a 1 year contract....draft to draft. Obviously if you do a good job and nothing changes in the FO, you get another 1 year deal.
scary way to make a living. better be damn good at it I guess.
I don't know how scary it is. I have a bit of experience w/scouting. It was at the collegiate level and not the NFL, but I doubt they are much different. You are on what they call a continuing one-year contract that is either renewed or not each year. It's more rare than not to not be renewed. Far more rare.
Well..........don't take my word for it because I am not sure how it works in the NFL.
I just know that one year contracts are not atypical in many fields. Even as a teacher, I was always on one-year contracts.
You have a valid point, but I think there is a bit of a difference as far as supply and demand.
There are only 32 NFL teams and a ton of hopeful scouts. While there are a lot of teachers, there are also many more schools in need of them.
I'm not a big fan of the constant turnover, but if they weren't on the same page it probably wouldn't have produced favorable results. Hopefully, the new system has the right people in place.
I don't know, peen. As a teacher, I worked on one year contracts every year of my career. However, unless I really screwed up or if I was low on the totem pole and there were budget cuts, there was no way I wasn't going to be retained.
It seems stupid to think that teams would replace the majority of their scouting staff each year. Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt if that is the way it works.
I am not saying all, or maybe even many don't get retained, but i have read several times that your typical scout is retained to a 1 year contract....draft to draft. Obviously if you do a good job and nothing changes in the FO, you get another 1 year deal.
scary way to make a living. better be damn good at it I guess.
Sounds like a job most everybody would like. Most can get fired tomorrow and won't get paid for the rest of the year. The contract for most people with jobs is basically day to day.
The Browns' decision to pass on Carson Wentz in the draft combined with the rookie's sterling performance against them in Week 1, a potential season-ending injury to Browns starter Robert Griffin III and comments from Browns official Paul DePodesta intimating the Browns didn't believe Wentz would be a "top-20 quarterback" have created a tempest in Cleveland. As it turns out, not everyone involved in scouting quarterbacks in Cleveland before the 2016 draft was in agreement.
According to numerous sources with knowledge of the situation, several of the more seasoned scouts and evaluators the Browns parted with prior to the draft -- an unusual time to release such employees -- actually preferred Wentz to quarterback Jared Goff and believed him to be the greater pro prospect. It was clear to many in the organization dating back to December, when the Browns held intense draft meetings, that the newly-empowered analytics department, soon to be spearheaded by DePodesta, strongly preferred Goff. And new coach Hue Jackson and his offensive coordinator, Pep Hamilton, were not high on Wentz but prized Goff, sources said, and made that clear to the rest of the organization.
The Browns opted to release six members of the organization -- many of them experienced, old-school scouts -- just three weeks before the draft. At the time, they were bailing on the quarterback market in the draft (and Wentz in particular) and shopping their second-overall pick to other teams. Many of those men, a group that included former general managers and personnel directors, had never met DePodesta personally before being let go, and, with their contracts set to expire after the draft, they were going to be let go in 2016 as part of downsizing anyway.
But the timing of their release raised eyebrows then and continues to generate chatter now given the high-profile way in which their quarterback decision has played out and the fact that the segment of personnel they let go were more pro-Wentz than others.
Wentz has played just one game, and will surely face some hurdles in his rookie season, but the reviews on his debut were overly positive. The Browns could end up with the first pick in the draft, and evaluators are already gushing over Notre Dame junior quarterback DeShone Kizer. The Browns will almost certainly be taking a passer very high in 2017.
Disagree with the new boys and your fired!
The more experienced scouts who preferred Wentz...gone. The way it worked out, the only thing worse than passing on Wentz may have been "taking Goff", which was what the "analytics boys" wanted to do.
...think about that when you start to praise these guys for their ability to judge football talent.
Can you OR Mr Know nothing big mouth Jason La Canacorna even name the six scouts who were fired, and point to any evidence as to why the six guys should have been kept instead of let go?
This is a message board filled with hundreds of fans discussing the Browns and their opinions on several subject matters. There will always be debates and disagreements. These aren't bad things.
Oh I knew the back and forth. So far history has shown that to date, since our return, all detractors about regimes and coaching staffs that have put them in a negative light have been 100% correct.
The reasoning has little to do with their perfect prediction rate. You see, you seem to feel I have a horse in this race. Actually the best thing for all of us would be that mac is totally wrong.
I didn't make the news, I just report it. To date, those who had reservations about every prior regime has been 100% correct. Those who have slung mud at them and questioned them have been 100% wrong.
Like it or not, those are the facts.
I do wish I was wrong..because there is nothing I want more than seeing the Browns win.
I wish Haslam was not the worst owner in the NFL...but he is.
I wish that NFL experience was not needed to make the best draft selections...but it is.
I wish analytics was the answer for making superior draft picks...but I see no evidence of that.
I wish a front office short on NFL experience and strong on education would give the Browns an advantage over the rest of the NFL...but it hasn't.
I remember when Sashi said that a 4 win season would be a disappointment...
I wonder, what a zero win season says about those in charge?
Oh I knew the back and forth. So far history has shown that to date, since our return, all detractors about regimes and coaching staffs that have put them in a negative light have been 100% correct.
The reasoning has little to do with their perfect prediction rate. You see, you seem to feel I have a horse in this race. Actually the best thing for all of us would be that mac is totally wrong.
I didn't make the news, I just report it. To date, those who had reservations about every prior regime has been 100% correct. Those who have slung mud at them and questioned them have been 100% wrong.
Like it or not, those are the facts.
I do wish I was wrong..because there is nothing I want more than seeing the Browns win.
I wish a front office short on NFL experience and strong on education would give the Browns an advantage over the rest of the NFL...but it hasn't.
I took a lot of effort to disprove this above. The fact that you read that long post and chose to repeat this means you are willing to outright lie to forward the agenda.
Re-read your last post. This is becoming more about mac than it is the Browns. You need to find another hobby.
Oh I knew the back and forth. So far history has shown that to date, since our return, all detractors about regimes and coaching staffs that have put them in a negative light have been 100% correct.
The reasoning has little to do with their perfect prediction rate. You see, you seem to feel I have a horse in this race. Actually the best thing for all of us would be that mac is totally wrong.
I didn't make the news, I just report it. To date, those who had reservations about every prior regime has been 100% correct. Those who have slung mud at them and questioned them have been 100% wrong.
Like it or not, those are the facts.
I do wish I was wrong..because there is nothing I want more than seeing the Browns win.
I wish a front office short on NFL experience and strong on education would give the Browns an advantage over the rest of the NFL...but it hasn't.
I took a lot of effort to disprove this above. The fact that you read that long post and chose to repeat this means you are willing to outright lie to forward the agenda.
Re-read your last post. This is becoming more about mac than it is the Browns. You need to find another hobby.
dep...I was kind of specific...I'm talking about front office experience...
Oh I knew the back and forth. So far history has shown that to date, since our return, all detractors about regimes and coaching staffs that have put them in a negative light have been 100% correct.
The reasoning has little to do with their perfect prediction rate. You see, you seem to feel I have a horse in this race. Actually the best thing for all of us would be that mac is totally wrong.
I didn't make the news, I just report it. To date, those who had reservations about every prior regime has been 100% correct. Those who have slung mud at them and questioned them have been 100% wrong.
Like it or not, those are the facts.
I do wish I was wrong..because there is nothing I want more than seeing the Browns win.
I wish a front office short on NFL experience and strong on education would give the Browns an advantage over the rest of the NFL...but it hasn't.
I took a lot of effort to disprove this above. The fact that you read that long post and chose to repeat this means you are willing to outright lie to forward the agenda.
Re-read your last post. This is becoming more about mac than it is the Browns. You need to find another hobby.
dep...I was kind of specific...I'm talking about front office experience...
Perhaps you think scouts and VP's of personnel are coaches? My post above was a pretty big chunk of our front office.
If you have an different idea of what a front office is maybe you should post it so you can stay a jump ahead of the media.
I would tend to believe a lot of the scouting turnover has to do with a new FO. Actually there was a big turnover in the scouting department when Farmer took over as well. Each regime wants "their guys". It happens with the coaching, the roster and the scouting department.
The odd thing about this time is that it was done pre-draft not post-draft. They usually keep the scouting staff in place until after the draft. That's the way the contracts are written. So to me the turnover isn't surprising, but the timing of it certainly is.
For months now, I have referred to those individuals in the draft room as the front office, which is what they have been called by every tv, radio, internet and print sports media outlet. example
Again, specifically, I'm discussing the experience the level the Browns have in their front office, those responsible for making the draft selections for the franchise...that would be.. ...the owners, Jimmy and Dee Haslam ...Chief strategy officer, Depodesta ...Exec. VP of football operations, Sashi Brown ...VP of player personnel, Andrew Berry
...*though not part of the front office, the Browns Head coach, Hue Jackson, was in the draft room.
Note: to my knowledge, none of the Browns scouts were in the draft room.
How many times have heard or read listed all scouts names as being part of the Browns front office?...or any front office of any NFL team?
I have never heard of anyone listing or naming the scouts when referring to the front office...especially when referring to those in the draft room.
Dep, you could start your own thread...the Browns scouts.
Thanks for bringing some substance to your feud with Mac .. I for one very much appreciate it as opposed to u "sinking" to his "level" ....
We know how he feels .. he says the same thing in EVERY THREAD ... i think this FO is DOOMED TO FAIL ... just don't feel the need to make it a personal crusade like Mac ... ...
Your last post about "getting ahead of the media" made me *LOL* ...
If your argument is that we don't have any football guys in the front office and then you purposely don't count the guys whose sole job is to evaluate talent as being in the front office, then I think I finally understand how you can get such a twisted viewpoint but even then you would forget about Andrew Berry but perhaps his football experience doesn't count because he went to Harvard.
Some people were probably in the draft room picking up trash and delivering food.
Should we count them? Because even though they probably don't have any football experience, I don't think that anyone went to Harvard either?
Theo Epstein has built two of the best baseball teams over the last 15 years having never played the game or coached the game at a high level.. but he went to Yale. Maybe Harvard is just the wrong Ivy League school.
I think it would be interesting to talk about how/why the FO wanted to streamline the scouting department. They got rid of some scouts that had been around quite a long time.
This points to them not valuing the scouts opinion very much and really trusting analytics as the way to identify and evaluate talent.
Personally, I would like a mix of the two.
I think it could be an interesting conversation and certainly better than the bickering that is going on.
I think it would be interesting to talk about how/why the FO wanted to streamline the scouting department. They got rid of some scouts that had been around quite a long time.
If we have scouts who have been around for a long time then they should gone given how craptastic our drafting has been these past years.
I'd be more concerned if we didn't fire some scouts in a front office change.
The timing was strange but that could be due to what they saw on their particular scouting reports. They may not have been worried if another team picked up these guys.
I think it would be interesting to talk about how/why the FO wanted to streamline the scouting department. They got rid of some scouts that had been around quite a long time.
This points to them not valuing the scouts opinion very much and really trusting analytics as the way to identify and evaluate talent.
Personally, I would like a mix of the two.
I think it could be an interesting conversation and certainly better than the bickering that is going on.
Here were the scouts that were let go (all were part of the college scouting department). These were all scouts hired by Farmer.
One report specifically lists five of the names, all of whom were college scouts: James Kirkland, Harrison Ritcher, Mike Hagen, Matt Holland and Bobby Depaul. The Browns previously had one of the NFL's largest scouting staffs, so this shouldn't be viewed as something that is overly out-of-the-box.
James Kirkland, senior player personnel associate – Kirkland most recently worked as a pro scout for the Tennessee Titans in 2013. He got his NFL start as a volunteer scouting intern with the Falcons. Kirkland was hired by the Browns in 2004 as an area scout. He was later promoted to assistant director of pro personnel in 2007. After three seasons in that role, Kirkland worked with the Chicago Bears from 2010-12 as a pro scouting assistant, a pro scout and an area scout.
Harrison Ritcher, player personnel associate – Ritcher played fullback at North Carolina State from 2006-09. After graduation, Ritcher served as a recruiting intern at Florida State in 2010. He then began working in the Browns personnel department as a scouting intern during the 2012 and 2013 seasons.
Mike Hagen, senior player personnel associate – Hagen was most recently working as a scouting consultant with the NFL football operations department. Over the course of Hagen’s 27 years in the league, he has worked with four Super Bowl teams in both executive and player personnel positions. Hagen was on staff for Super Bowls with the Falcons (XXXIII) and the Redskins (XXVI), and made multiple Super Bowl trips with the Broncos (XXII, XXIV) and Cowboys (XXVII, XXVIII). From 2010-12, Hagen worked as the assistant general manager/pro personnel director of the Toronto Argonauts in the Canadian Football League. His brother, Steve, is a former Browns assistant coach.
Bobby DePaul, senior player personnel associate – DePaul played linebacker at Maryland before coaching three years at Catholic University. He then served as an assistant coach with the Washington Redskins (1989-93) and the Cincinnati Bengals (1994-96). DePaul then transitioned to personnel with the Philadelphia Eagles from 1997-2000. After serving as the pro personnel director for the Chicago Bears from 2001-09, DePaul returned to the Eagles working as a pro advance scout. In 22 years in the NFL, DePaul has helped his teams earn four Coach of the Year awards, five division titles, two Super Bowl appearances and one Super Bowl victory.
On a side note, I think for the most part we are not seeing forest for the trees. Getting caught up in the minor details.
More importantly, imo, my concern at the moment is that we have an inexperienced GM who just recently and unwittingly undermined his HC by saying they (the FO) are not concerned with wins or losses this season. He basically, just told every rookie in that locker room that winning isn't a priority which contradicts the message Hue is trying to instill and get them to buy into week and week out.
Sashi was trying to be honest with the media, but made an ill-advised public comment, however true it was. That speaks to someone who is inexperienced and in over their head, at this point in time.
My hope is Haslam allows the FO and coaching staff to grow into their positions, gives them time to succeed and finger pointing doesn't start after this impending 0-16 season.
This article resonated w/me when I read it because I had just read several other articles about the Browns wanting to "streamline" their scouting department.
Quote:
Are NFL scouting departments underfunded? Posted April 12, 2011 · A
Most large fortune 1000 companies involved in producing consumer goods and services spend anywhere from 15% to 20% of their gross income on research and development (R&D) in creating new products or improving on current ones.
Translating the corporate R&D investment formula to the NFL would mean that each NFL team would spend about 15% of gross revenues on their scouting departments and all related player diligence expenses.
With about $8 billion in NFL gross revenues in 2010, that filters down to $250 million per team. 15% of $250 million is $37.5 million. That amount of money doesn’t obviously translate as it’s way too high for the required task. So let’s take the max cost of players’ salaries (about $130 million per team) and multiply that times 15%. That gets us to $19.5 million per team spent on R&D. I am sorry to inform those who think their NFL team should be run like a business, because that’s not happening. NFL teams on average spend only $2 to $3 million dollars per year on their scouting department (R&D).
Let's break down a typical structure with average Salaries per position:
Director of Player Personnel: $455,000 Director of college scouting: $275,000 Pro Personnel Director: $250,000 Assistant to Pro director: $95,000 7 area scouts: $95,000 per scout on average. Total: $665,000 Assistant/administrative: $60,000 Miscellaneous assistant: $45,000
Total yearly salaries: $1,835,000
Add in travel, per diems, hotel, equipment, service vendors, communications, tape/digital transfers, testing services, car allowances, and miscellaneous items: a typical scouting department may have an additional $300,000 to $600,000 in expenses.
My best estimates are that an average NFL team spends between $2 million and $3 million per year on R&D (college and pro scouting), which is only slightly less than 2% of what a team contributes to player salaries. I bet that if I showed this number to some sharp corporate executives, along with the inefficiencies of draft selections, I’m sure they would agree that the number is way too low.
The research and development arm of a company is usually the lifeblood of that company. If Apple, DuPont, Dow, 3M, Amgen and Pfizer don’t spend adequately on the development of new products, technology and drugs, their competitors will eat them alive.
It amazes me that NFL teams don’t spend more money doing more diligence on college and pro players. I know you hear all the stories about scouts being thorough and checking on guys’ social activity all the way back to high school, but the reality is that many bad seeds still slip through the screening cracks along with a lot of bad draft picks that cost teams money and opportunity.
If I ran a team I would have the highest R&D cost in the league because I know it will save my team money in the long run and give me more wins. I would allocate more money on intelligence testing, character/social habit evaluations and practice habits. I would use more private investigators and even hire former highly respected coaches (and former strength coaches) to gather hard to get information from college coaches.
Of course the second part of this equation is that you have to find coaches who can develop your draft picks. Why not hire a scout to exclusively evaluate other coaches and keep scouting reports on them?
It baffles me that I can ask one of my current players (or even a college coach) about a prospect he played with or coached in college and he may tell me to “stay away” because of some obvious reason. However, an NFL team will never get the same intel I received by just doing a little diligence. It also amazes me how one NFL team can pick up on a major character, work ethic or physical deficiency while others won't catch it.
Good NFL scouts work like dogs and are probably the most under paid professionals in the NFL food chain. In addition, there will always be growing pains with new and young scouts as they replace older and higher paid scouts. Therefore, why not train a scout for 2 or 3 years before you let him start contributing to the evaluation of players? Expenses may go up for the R&D department but inefficiencies may decrease. I’m not saying more scouts are the answer but I am saying more resources are needed for an effective evaluation system. One problem brought to my attention by one scouting director is that area scouts become underappreciated by most team presidents as they are “out of sight and out of mind because they don’t work in the team building”.
I firmly believe that if scouting departments had more resources and bigger budgets, players like Wes Welker, Danny Woodhead, John Randle, Kris Dielman, Antonio Gates, Tom Brady, Jon Kitna, Kurt Warner, Jeff Saturday, and many others most likely would have been drafted or drafted higher. On the flip side, high first round picks such as Ryan Leaf, JaMarcus Russell, Tony Manderich, Brian Bosworth, Akili Smith, Lawrence Phillips, Heath Shuler, and Blair Thomas probably would have been drafted substantially lower than where they were originally picked.
To their own detriment, some NFL teams are still run like small mom and pop businesses, while others are highly efficient and have more of a corporate structure and/or use proven management principals. That’s why this years draft will be like many others with great players being passed over for more overhyped ones.
Once again, I wonder what your thoughts are of the Browns not employing as many scouts as they have in the past or as many as other teams? Is it wise to trust analytics to such an extent? Are scouts dinosaurs? Is it revolutionary? Is it another sign of cutting costs?
More importantly, imo, my concern at the moment is that we have an inexperienced GM who just recently and unwittingly undermined his HC by saying they (the FO) are not concerned with wins or losses this season. He basically, just told every rookie in that locker room that winning isn't a priority which contradicts the message Hue is trying to instill and get them to buy into week and week out.
Sashi was trying to be honest with the media, but made an ill-advised public comment, however true it was. That speaks to someone who is inexperienced and in over their head, at this point in time.
Milk Man...good post.
The inexperience of the Browns front office was apparent when Sashi spoke about being disappointed with just 4 wins.
The inexperience showed when Sashi spoke about sending the right message to the locker room by retaining your own free agents...then not signing any.
The inexperience showed again when Depodesta said that the front office did not consider Wentz to be a top 20 QB in the NFL.
The Browns front office considered Goff as the top QB in the draft and didn't believe Wentz would be a top 20 QB. The #1 draft priority for the Browns was a franchise QB.
Ten games into the season and it appears that the Browns front office made a few, costly misjudgments. I'm now convinced that the inexperience and misjudgments need to be addressed..BEFORE the next draft.
It's up to those in charge of supplying the talent for the roster, to admit to their misjudgments...they need to admit it to themselves and to each other. Hopefully this group will then ask themselves the next logical question..HOW TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF THEIR INEXPERIENCE?
Patriots use analytics, but Belichick dismisses analytics websites
Posted by Michael David Smith on November 19, 2016, 7:21 AM EST LINK
Patriots coach Bill Belichick was asked at his press conference on Friday about “advanced metric websites,” and Belichick, as he so often does, scoffed.
“You could take those advanced websites and metric them wherever you want,” Belichick said. “I don’t know. I have no idea. I’ve never looked at one. I don’t even care to look at one. I don’t care what they say. . . . . All the metric pages and all of that, I mean I have no idea. You’d need to ask that to a smarter coach than me.”
What Belichick did not say, however, is that the Patriots don’t use analytics. Belichick doesn’t talk about it publicly because he never gives any strategies away publicly, but he has long relied on analytics. One of his most trusted advisors is Ernie Adams, the Patriots’ football research director, who was a municipal bonds trader before he worked for Belichick, first in Cleveland and then in New England. Many of the methods that sports statistical analysts use are rooted in the same methods used to analyze economic data. Adams understands both, and that makes him valuable to Belichick.
Looking at Belichick’s strategies, it’s clear that he thinks along the same lines as the analytics people. In the NFL draft, Belichick prefers trading down to trading up, and he particularly likes to trade a pick this year for a higher pick next year. That suggests that he’s studied the economic phenomenon of hyperbolic discounting.
On the sideline, the most controversial call of Belichick’s career appeared to be influenced by analytics: When Belichick went for it on fourth-and-2 from his own 28-yard line in a 2009 game against the Colts, it was the analytics people who said he had made the mathematically correct decision, while most football fans and media members thought Belichick had lost his mind.
That approach to analytics goes to the very top of the organization. The Patriots’ official website wrote this year that “You may not find a bigger believer in data and analytics than New England Patriots Owner Robert Kraft.”
So if the Patriots use analytics, why is Belichick so insistent that he doesn’t give a damn about analytics websites? The first answer is obvious: Belichick never gives anything away. He doesn’t want other teams to know the types of data the Patriots track.
But the other answer may be more important: Belichick was specifically asked about websites that track how quickly a quarterback releases the football, and Belichick has always been particularly skeptical about anyone who tries to analyze the game on the field without knowing the play that was called. Belichick added in his answer that “As far as a quarterback goes, read the coverage, throw the ball to the open receiver and take the best matchup. . . . The quarterback’s got to read the coverage, make the right decision and make an accurate throw.” Belichick’s view is that if you don’t know what play the Patriots called, you can’t accurately assess whether Tom Brady correctly read through his progressions and threw to the receiver with the best matchup.
So Belichick does use analytics. He just has little use for websites that operate with less information than he has.
It's up to those in charge of supplying the talent for the roster, to admit to their misjudgments...they need to admit it to themselves and to each other. Hopefully this group will then ask themselves the next logical question..HOW TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF THEIR INEXPERIENCE?
You have no clue who was even in the war room on draft day.
GM, I saw his name, but missed where he was fired or retained. The other name I saw mentioned was Dan Hatman, he looks like he may have been in more consultancy role.
I think Belichick has the right mix. Use analytics as a tool rather than an end-all. And that is why the Brown's decision to streamline the scouting department concerns me.
Dan Hatman was never a scout for the Browns. If he did anything it would have been a side job as a consultant if anything, but I don;t even think he did that BUT I could be wrong about him doing some consulting stuff.
BTW Charles Bailey and Ron Hill, were also hired at the same time as Hagen, Kirkland, and Aligo and both Bailey and Hill are still with the Browns.
I posted the article above to show why I have not called for anyone in our front office to be fired. There is a need for an analytics department but I believe it would be useful to study how the Patriots blend analytics with experienced football people in their front office.
Nick Caserio is listed as the #3 man under Bob Kraft and his son is..
Nick Caserio- Director of player personnel...he has an extensive background in football, playing in HS and College, coaching in College and the Pros, before becoming an executive. link
Belichick is the GM...not sure where BB ranks in the organization but the point I'm making, the Patriots blend analytics with experienced football people and we can see what their results are.
It's up to those in charge of supplying the talent for the roster, to admit to their misjudgments...they need to admit it to themselves and to each other. Hopefully this group will then ask themselves the next logical question..HOW TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF THEIR INEXPERIENCE?
You have no clue who was even in the war room on draft day.
Also if I remember correctly our Head Analytics guy Paul D...said that this 2016 season he was going to sit back and study more than step in and be any decision maker...so if Analytics took over the draft room just who was assessing and setting themselves up as the Shaker and Baker of the analytics...and if we had such person...why hire Paul D?
Here's a curveball for some ... not sure who's been saying what ... but this is something that changes the outlook ...
Maybe he got hurt? ..
Jabaal Sheard - DL - Patriots
Patriots DE Jabaal Sheard did not travel with the team to San Francisco.
Rumors started swirling after Sheard's Instagram account posted a video from the Celtics game last night. Sheard was outstanding last season and at least part of the reason the Pats felt comfortable trading Chandler Jones, but he has steadily dropped down the depth chart this year. He played just 16 snaps on defense last week against the Seahawks, and it appears he is going to be a healthy scratch this week. In the final year of his deal, it looks like Sheard will be playing elsewhere next season.
While watching the last Pats game they were starting a rookie or young player in stead of Sheard who was on the sidelines not all that happy - I forgot the kids name Edwards or something...who also was named as a reason they let Collins go. Which reminds me, boy I hope he catches the family fever here with the players and coaching staff and we sign him long term...he is a guy to build a D around! jmho
Elandon Roberts is the ILB replacing Collins. Trey Flowers (?) I think is replacing Sheard. Belichik said it was performance related. I read Jabaal has like 2 total tackles since week 6.
He's a healthy scratch. It looks, from the outside, like he felt that he didn;t have to do all of the things the coaches wanted, so he's the next discipline casualty.
He's a healthy scratch. It looks, from the outside, like he felt that he didn;t have to do all of the things the coaches wanted, so he's the next discipline casualty.
their pass rush has been an issue all season ... that looks like their one big area of overhaul coming up
Can this Browns regime identify a franchise QB? Hey, Mary Kay?
November 20, 2016 at 5:03 AM CLEVELAND, Ohio - Hey, Mary Kay! link
Hey, Mary Kay: During the last draft and free agency period, Sashi Brown, Paul DePodesta, and Hue Jackson in some order, wanted Jared Goff, RG3 and Cody Kessler, and passed on Dak Prescott and Carson Wentz. Do you have confidence that they are capable of recognizing and then selecting a real franchise QB in the next draft? - Richard Iannicca, San Diego, Calif.
Hey, Richard: I've asked myself that same question many times over the past year. I do think the Browns should've drafted Wentz, but the final analysis isn't in yet on these quarterbacks. I believe the Browns should have someone in the personnel department who's actually drafted a successful NFL quarterback, but this regime is confident it can get it right.
It helps that Hue Jackson is on board, and that personnel department now has a better idea of what he needs. Griffin also didn't get a chance to prove if he can be the complete quarterback Jackson needs, so we don't know if they were wrong on him. The jury is also still out on Kessler, who's progressed well in many areas this season.
Hey, Mary Kay: There will be some veteran QBs on the market after the season. Jay Cutler, maybe Tyrod Taylor, maybe Kirk Cousins. Do you see the Browns targeting one of them, or do they just plan on riding Cody Kessler to the promised land? -- Dennis, Aurora, Ohio
Hey, Dennis: It's not a great year for quarterbacks in the draft, and it remains to be seen if a sleeper prospect will emerge in the coming months the way Carson Wentz did last year. Therefore, the Browns will have to keep looking for quarterbacks in free agency and on other team's rosters for trade possibilities.
One option might be Patriots backup Jimmy Garappolo, whom Bill Belichick praised this week. He compared him favorably to Tom Brady, which may or may not have been a trade ploy. Garappolo is under contract through next season, but the Patriots also have Jacoby Brissett, whom they really like. Sashi Brown acknowledged that most good QBs don't hit the market, but the Browns have to look far and wide for their possible QB of the future.
Hey, Mary Kay: With all the problems on the offensive line, and the lack of a true franchise QB in this draft, wouldn't the Browns be smarter in drafting for the offensive line? Look how well a fourth-round QB (Dak Prescott) is doing in Dallas. I think even Cody Kessler would perform well with that protection. Why have your QB killed? Thoughts? -- Chris Davis, Florence, Ky.
Hey, Chris: I agree that the Cowboys' offense is largely powered by its star-studded line, but I also think Prescott and Ezekiel Elliott are special talents. If a franchise-caliber quarterback is available with the Browns' top pick, they should take him over an offensive lineman. But with two picks in the first round and two in the second, the Browns will still have opportunities to draft a lineman high. They also have Austin Reiter coming back from his torn ACL, and he showed promise in his lone start at center. He'll either win that job, and or challenge for another spot on the line. But the line definitely must be one of the priorities in this draft.
Hey, Mary Kay: Why so much secrecy surrounding Josh Gordon? I wish the league would suspend him for life or the Browns would just cut him already. If neither of those things are going to happen, let him play. The least the league could do is give teams an opportunity to put a value on a trade, which this front office would do cartwheels over. They obviously value the two birds in the bush over the one in the hand. -- Eric Huber, West Chester, Ohio.
Hey, Eric: Gordon is currently on indefinite suspension, which means he's really not in the league right now and must apply for reinstatement from Commissioner Roger Goodell. He recently went to rehab and is working on his recovery. But the Browns aren't pressed to cut him because they don't have to pay him while he's out. If he is reinstated, they can always try to trade him or release him at that point. Currently, they own his rights for two more seasons.
Thats not how u handle a 23 year old rookie ... especially when your trying to force him to do something he's obviously not comftorable with at this point ...
Worked out well just fine when Green Bay did it in the early 92 for Brett Favre and Majkowski (spelling)
Brett wasn't getting it so he got pulled a couple of times for Maj....
Not that that is the only time it's been done. But it's the time that stands out to me.
Hey, Mary Kay: During the last draft and free agency period, Sashi Brown, Paul DePodesta, and Hue Jackson in some order, wanted Jared Goff, RG3 and Cody Kessler, and passed on Dak Prescott and Carson Wentz. Do you have confidence that they are capable of recognizing and then selecting a real franchise QB in the next draft? - Richard Iannicca, San Diego, Calif.
Above, this kind of sums it up for me..when given a chance to judge QB talent, the record is clear..Depodesta, Sashi, Hue and Berry misjudged QB talent in the 2016 draft..not just on one QB..but several misjudgements.
If I'm the owner of the Browns, I look at this group's performance judging QB talent and make some changes to the draft team. I like the idea of having someone added to the personnel department who actually has experience drafting QB talent.
...but hey, that's just me...since when has this franchise done anything right?
Thats not how u handle a 23 year old rookie ... especially when your trying to force him to do something he's obviously not comftorable with at this point ...
Worked out well just fine when Green Bay did it in the early 92 for Brett Favre and Majkowski (spelling)
Brett wasn't getting it so he got pulled a couple of times for Maj....
Not that that is the only time it's been done. But it's the time that stands out to me.
And this is just another example of why i NEVER respond to U ...
Browns are honing in on Tar Heels QB Mitch Trubisky in the 2017 NFL Draft
The Browns shocked many in the NFL by passing on Carson Wentz and trading out of the second overall pick a year ago. And even though they drafted Cody Kessler on the second day, the team has put significant time and resources into finding its long-term solution to its ongoing quarterback problem in the 2017 draft. And with the college season winding down, multiple sources said the team's scouts and brass are very high on North Carolina junior quarterback Mitch Trubisky. Trubisky has not received as much press as higher-profile quarterbacks, but the junior and first-year starter is one of the better prospects in what is perceived as a shallow QB class, and sources said the Browns have been particularly impressed by him. The franchise, which uses a heavy reliance on analytics, has strong grades on him, and it's not a secret in the scouting community how highly the Browns rate him.
"They love him," a top evaluator from another NFL club said. "Trust me, they love him."
Cleveland has been searching for quarterback stability since it re-entered the league as an expansion team in 1999. The Browns are again loaded with picks in 2017, two in the first round (including No. 1 overall should they remain on their winless path). Any stability in the front office -- the Browns have repeatedly changed regimes under owner Jimmy Haslam -- ultimately will be tied to finally figuring out the most important position on the field, and last week's benching of Kessler mid-game was another indication of his limitations.
At 6-feet-3, Trubisky has the arm strength to play in the adverse conditions of the AFC North. Sources said the Browns have done extensive work on the native of nearby Mentor, Ohio (about a half hour from Cleveland). The Browns had scouts in attendance at his game Saturday and have tracked him very closely.
If our FO likes him then take him be it at #1 #5 #10 or whatever. We need a QB for the future as everyone knows. If we do draft him then start taking BPA with our other picks.
I started a thread on Trubisky in Tailgate awhile back.
Still want to look at him closer before any final analysis.
Kizer has potential but he also will need time. If he comes out he will need to be brought along slowly kind of like Garoppolo. He does not yet have the ability to slow the game down. He rushes decisions when unnecessary. It boils down to lack of experience.
Trubisky also lacks experience. The thing about Wentz when in college was you could see his command of the offense. He was the general the field. That is what he brought into the NFL.
I am unsure if Trubisky has that kind of skill level because of his lack of playing time. All the quarterbacks coming into the NFL have a steep hill to climb. But in some cases that adjustment is less because of the offenses they ran in college and their total responsibilities.
Trubisky has the physical skills you look for but that does not guarantee success. It is kind of cool that he is from Mentor. Makes for a good story.
"They love him," a top evaluator from another NFL club said. "Trust me, they love him."
Why would news such as this be known to the rest of the NFL?
Someone in this franchise has a problem keeping their mouth shut if we have freaking Lacanfora discussing the Browns draft plans months ahead of the draft.
I started a thread on Trubisky in Tailgate awhile back.
Still want to look at him closer before any final analysis.
Kizer has potential but he also will need time. If he comes out he will need to be brought along slowly kind of like Garoppolo. He does not yet have the ability to slow the game down. He rushes decisions when unnecessary. It boils down to lack of experience.
Trubisky also lacks experience. The thing about Wentz when in college was you could see his command of the offense. He was the general the field. That is what he brought into the NFL.
I am unsure if Trubisky has that kind of skill level because of his lack of playing time. All the quarterbacks coming into the NFL have a steep hill to climb. But in some cases that adjustment is less because of the offenses they ran in college and their total responsibilities.
Trubisky has the physical skills you look for but that does not guarantee success. It is kind of cool that he is from Mentor. Makes for a good story.
La Conforna isn't in the know about anything. He just prints what Lombardi tells him to.
I don't see it the same as research and development in a company that develops a product. They may do some research, but they aren't developing anything.
I am not taking a position on if teams spend enough or not, but probably leaning towards they spend what they need.
The reality is there aren't all that many players teams consider prospects. What, maybe 500 in any year, and many of those can be vetted by viewing tape.
I don't know what scouting dept. budgets and size are across the league, but I'd bet most are pretty close in size. I don't think the Browns as an example are trying to do it with maybe 12 people and other teams have 35 on the payroll.
People keep knocking LaCanafora, but he was right when he wrote about what was going on when Shanny, Farmer, Pet, and other FO guys were here. How do you guys ignore that?
Is it possible we can grab Garrett 1a and trubisky 1b?
I don't think so. QB's tend to go early. I have seen Trubisky going as early as #3. I don't think he makes it to wherever the Eagle pick finally falls.
We have to take him at #1, or we don't get him unles we trade down.
People keep knocking LaCanafora, but he was right when he wrote about what was going on when Shanny, Farmer, Pet, and other FO guys were here. How do you guys ignore that?
LaCanforna isn't even respected by other journalists. I've even seen Grossi ripping on him. Even the rumor mongers, (Florio, Rappaport, etc..) knock the guy. He is wrong 10 times more often than he is right.
People keep knocking LaCanafora, but he was right when he wrote about what was going on when Shanny, Farmer, Pet, and other FO guys were here. How do you guys ignore that?
LaCanforna isn't even respected by other journalists. I've even seen Grossi ripping on him. Even the rumor mongers, (Florio, Rappaport, etc..) knock the guy. He is wrong 10 times more often than he is right.
And yet, almost flawless when reporting how trash our team is.
I'm am not jumping on the trash the front office bandwagon - yet.
They took 1 year and tore this team down to the bones. I can hardly say that it didn't need it. But this next off-season is show me time. Lots of draft picks, lots of salary cap space. I am withholding judgement until I see what they do with it. But I am most definitely watching with a critical eye.
I agree. No, I don't like everything this FO has done to this point, but it will take another couple of drafts before we see what they have done. I even think things are off to a poor start. I don't think we helped the team much in this last draft.
jest...you might be fine with giving the front office a pass...I'M NOT!
Just like every player and coach on the team, this front office deserves to be judged on their performances.
Depodesta, Sashi and Berry were given the power to shape this roster according to their standards...how did they do?
I've focused on their judgement of the QBs and the media is now beginning ask some of the same questions we have discussed here. Their entire draft needs to be judged.
Having more bites of the apple does not mean the front office had a good draft. Simply having more draft picks than any other team does not mean that the Browns front office is superior. The bottom line is, the front office must identify and draft superior talent. Passing on the best talent to gain draft picks does not help your team if the front office does not hit on those extra picks.
The worst thing the fans can do, IMO, is remain silent.
I think this season, the Browns FO MUST keep our good talent. Media made it look like nobody wanted to stay in Cleveland and/or Cleveland was cheap as heck last off season (and those things could be true), so they better pay their guys (Pryor/Collins).
mac, Haslam came right out and said that this was a multi-year process and that it was going to be a struggle.
I am not going to bash them for this year's won/loss record. However, I do have a couple of concerns:
1. The more I analyze/evaluate the plan, the more holes I find. The number of losses [especially next year] is going to get coaches in trouble. Brown's fans not buying tickets will be a slap in the face to the money guys. Building a culture of losing. Contracts all coming up at the same time. Not having a minor league system [baseball] to stash players when you make a run on one position.
2. I am not that impressed w/their first draft. Lot's of guys and no real impact players.
1. The more I analyze/evaluate the plan, the more holes I find.
We were thinking that the Browns could focus on the defensive side of the ball in the next draft...guess what, the front office still hasn't filled the holes they created themselves.
They need to draft at least one offensive lineman...a center. Joe Thomas won't be here much longer and I see no plan to replace him. Drafting Colman, the Auburn OT "coming off of knee surgery"...we don't even know if he is better than Pazstor.
Drafting a QB and putting him behind this offensive line might not be a good idea, based on number of QBs that get butchered up in Cleveland this season.
Suddenly, last years draft did little to fill the needs on the offensive and defensive sides. The front office still needs to draft a QB, OLine and Defense at every position.
It might be a good idea if the front office stops creating holes they can't fill.
Dude looks good. Very accurate. Looks like Duke made some good second half adjustments on him. Questionable last drive decisions. Lots of dump offs, and looks to be a horrible over throw for the easy INT to end the game.
This game alone though. He looks a worlds better than when he played my Georgia boys at the beginning of the season.
Thats not how u handle a 23 year old rookie ... especially when your trying to force him to do something he's obviously not comftorable with at this point ...
Worked out well just fine when Green Bay did it in the early 92 for Brett Favre and Majkowski (spelling)
Brett wasn't getting it so he got pulled a couple of times for Maj....
Not that that is the only time it's been done. But it's the time that stands out to me.
And this is just another example of why i NEVER respond to U ...
Ahh, Poor baby, did I hurt your feelings.. Are you related to Donald Trump?
Good arm...good footwork...some questionable decisions here and there. I don't think overall #1. We'll see how this goes...Nov. is one thing, by April next year he could be ranked as #1
I saw a guy Lock - I thought he played QB as well as anybody that I've seen this year. don't know if it was 1 game but I liked his footwork and arm also.
I'm very confident in the our drafting...I thought we did a good job last season. Don't see any bums - I think some here are over thinking a lot of the players.
19 rookies on our roster. All will play better...don't know how many will stick.
btw DeValve is the real deal. I know he is not getting many reps but what I see of him...he is going to be a play maker for us!
Good arm...good footwork...some questionable decisions here and there. I don't think overall #1. We'll see how this goes...Nov. is one thing, by April next year he could be ranked as #1
Trubisky is becoming my favorite QB in the draft. Has the right size/frame, moves well in the pocket, has an NFL arm. I'm not sure where he deserves to be taken and I'm no QB evaluator, but if the Browns like him, I'd be fine taking him with the #1 pick. We need a QB...if that isn't blatantly obvious.
Over in the game day thread someone brought up the subject of why Haslam, Depodesta and Sashi do not make themselves available to the media, to answer some questions? Hue is the one getting all the questions, while the owner and his Harvard Boys remain in hiding.
outside of Jerry Jones, how often do you see the owners and VP/GM address the media. Sashi just did that a week or two ago. Hue is the man of the day when it comes to talking about what player did well and which one didn't and why something did or didn't work in a game.
What's haslam supposed to say? What do you want to hear from him. I mean, it's pretty damn clear you have no respect for the man so why do you even care what he has to say?
Focus on what Joe said about them, not more than likely this hacks comments .. We all Mack was one of the best and he is making a HUGE DIFFERENCE in Atlanta ... I have no clue how Schwartz is playing, what i do know is that Joe thought alot about him when he was here ...
Joe Thomas vents at Browns management
It was inevitable that a veteran Browns player would fire a shot up the stairs at management this season. It's actually impressive that it took 11 weeks (and 11 losses).
After bottoming out against the Steelers (5-5) on Sunday in a game that saw them yield eight sacks and again get a quarterback injured, captain Joe Thomas said what was on just about everyone's mind.
"You've got to lie in the bed that you've made," he said, via The Chronicle Telegram. "We lost a couple really good players, I think the best at their position. But that was our strategy in the offseason. That's what we decided to do.
"The guys that are making the personnel decisions, they're the experts on that, so they're the ones that have to make those decisions and look at those decisions when they're made."
Thomas is obviously talking about the loss of both Mitchell Schwartz and Alex Mack. Both are having fantastic seasons in their new destinations, though the Browns probably figured that was going to happen anyway. The team's new brain trust was clear that they were going young and cheap, with Thomas being one of the few anchor pieces for the future.
While Thomas' remarks were pretty pointed, it's hard to imagine anyone there losing faith in the process just yet. Yes, the Browns are winless and plummeting fast toward the No. 1 pick in this year's NFL draft, but they were fairly clear about their intentions all along. Draft tons of cost-controlled players in the top 100, let them fight it out for spots and, when the time is right, supplement in free agency. What they weren't clear on was the effect it might have if the season wears on like this.
this may be the worst franchise i have ever had the displeasure of viewing. From ownership to kicker, we suck. Croocked owner, head coach that has givne up, team president that says its not about winning football games. 14 wasted draft picks, offensive line that blocks continues to block 1 man with with 3 while the QBs get killed. Hell we had to call a timeout a week ago because Horton had 12 men out there on the very first play of the game. Does anyone realize how freaking incompetent you have to be to have 12 men on the first defensive possession that you scripted for all week. It was about as brilliant as hue running the option with McCown when he had the separated shoulder.
I wont watch another game this year and I really have no desire to purchase sunday ticket to watch them next year. I think givingup 8 sacks to a Steelers team that hasnt had a pass rush against anyone was about the final straw for me.
There is not one single thing to build upon with this team. We arent 0-16 bounc, we may be 0-32 bound.
Someone needs to tell Sashi we do care about wins and loses I mean I'm sick of losing!!!
To be fair, he said they aren't 'focused' on wins and losses. Poor choice of words, no doubt. But not the same as not caring.
I think that comment got taken a little out of context. I took it to mean that they are not focused on wins and losses as part of their evaluation of the plan and where it's headed.
Good arm...good footwork...some questionable decisions here and there. I don't think overall #1. We'll see how this goes...Nov. is one thing, by April next year he could be ranked as #1
Trubisky is becoming my favorite QB in the draft. Has the right size/frame, moves well in the pocket, has an NFL arm. I'm not sure where he deserves to be taken and I'm no QB evaluator, but if the Browns like him, I'd be fine taking him with the #1 pick. We need a QB...if that isn't blatantly obvious.
Would you be willing to trade the #1 overall to NE for Jimmy G then? I'd rather do that than draft any player likley to come out in '17...but I wouldn't do either (trade the #1 to NE for Jimmy G or draft Trubinsky #1 overall) if the decision were up to me.
Good arm...good footwork...some questionable decisions here and there. I don't think overall #1. We'll see how this goes...Nov. is one thing, by April next year he could be ranked as #1
Trubisky is becoming my favorite QB in the draft. Has the right size/frame, moves well in the pocket, has an NFL arm. I'm not sure where he deserves to be taken and I'm no QB evaluator, but if the Browns like him, I'd be fine taking him with the #1 pick. We need a QB...if that isn't blatantly obvious.
Browns are honing in on Tar Heels QB Mitch Trubisky in the 2017 NFL Draft
The Browns shocked many in the NFL by passing on Carson Wentz and trading out of the second overall pick a year ago. And even though they drafted Cody Kessler on the second day, the team has put significant time and resources into finding its long-term solution to its ongoing quarterback problem in the 2017 draft. And with the college season winding down, multiple sources said the team's scouts and brass are very high on North Carolina junior quarterback Mitch Trubisky. Trubisky has not received as much press as higher-profile quarterbacks, but the junior and first-year starter is one of the better prospects in what is perceived as a shallow QB class, and sources said the Browns have been particularly impressed by him. The franchise, which uses a heavy reliance on analytics, has strong grades on him, and it's not a secret in the scouting community how highly the Browns rate him. "They love him," a top evaluator from another NFL club said. "Trust me, they love him." Cleveland has been searching for quarterback stability since it re-entered the league as an expansion team in 1999. The Browns are again loaded with picks in 2017, two in the first round (including No. 1 overall should they remain on their winless path). Any stability in the front office -- the Browns have repeatedly changed regimes under owner Jimmy Haslam -- ultimately will be tied to finally figuring out the most important position on the field, and last week's benching of Kessler mid-game was another indication of his limitations.
At 6-feet-3, Trubisky has the arm strength to play in the adverse conditions of the AFC North. Sources said the Browns have done extensive work on the native of nearby Mentor, Ohio (about a half hour from Cleveland). The Browns had scouts in attendance at his game Saturday and have tracked him very closely.
Oh man! If the FO feels that he has the potential to truly become a "franchise" QB, then you better take him at #1 because San Fran and the Bears are drafting (in all likelihood) right behind you. Having said that, there is no way I would pick any QB this year with the #1 pick. Yes, we need to resolve the QB issue, but our defence must be addressed often and early. Take Allen or Garrett with the #1 and see who slips to our Phiily pick, or go CB/S with the second 1st rounder and grab your QB on Day 2...
Hue and the Harvard Boys might not like to hear Joe Thomas speak out but I say it's about time that ownership of the decisions made in the offseason be identified and discussed.
Someone needs to tell Sashi we do care about wins and loses I mean I'm sick of losing!!!
To be fair, he said they aren't 'focused' on wins and losses. Poor choice of words, no doubt. But not the same as not caring.
I think that comment got taken a little out of context. I took it to mean that they are not focused on wins and losses as part of their evaluation of the plan and where it's headed.
What exactly are they focused on? Winning is what it's all about. How can you say a plan is working if you ignore the fact that you lose every game?
hearing from all of the players is just going to breed a dysfunctional locker room...better to keep that stuff said in house.
101...I do not believe in the politically correct BS that NFL teams attempt to establish as the way things should be handled...never criticize the front office or the owner.
What I find interesting...all this crap about Mack not wanting to be here in Cleveland...why would JT criticize the front office for not resigning Mack if there was never a chance for the Harvard Boys to sign him?
Mack wanted to paid for what he was...the best center in the NFL...and "the boys" were convinced that Cam Erving could step right in at center and we would never miss Alex Mack.
The moneyball boys were wrong and the players know it. Joe Thomas is full of frustration and not afraid to break the unwritten rule about criticizing management.
It needs to come out and needs to be discussed or the same idiotic crap will be repeated again by the owner and his moneyballers.
Hell, it would be better if Haslam and Depodesta, Sashi and Berry manned up and admitted, THEY SCREWED UP.
I think it is safe to say, the inexperience of the front office is beginning to show.
hearing from all of the players is just going to breed a dysfunctional locker room...better to keep that stuff said in house.
101...I do not believe in the politically correct BS that NFL teams attempt to establish as the way things should be handled...never criticize the front office or the owner.
What I find interesting...all this crap about Mack not wanting to be here in Cleveland...why would JT criticize the front office for not resigning Mack if there was never a chance for the Harvard Boys to sign him?
Mack wanted to paid for what he was...the best center in the NFL...and "the boys" were convinced that Cam Erving could step right in at center and we would never miss Alex Mack.
The moneyball boys were wrong and the players know it. Joe Thomas is full of frustration and not afraid to break the unwritten rule about criticizing management.
It needs to come out and needs to be discussed or the same idiotic crap will be repeated again by the owner and his moneyballers.
Hell, it would be better if Haslam and Depodesta, Sashi and Berry manned up and admitted, THEY SCREWED UP.
I think it is safe to say, the inexperience of the front office is beginning to show.
I think you miss interpreted what I was trying to convey.
I think if you need to voice your opinion on the state of things. Then that should be done behind closed doors. not a good look to be doing that, using the medium he did.
I hated seeing us let Schwartz go. last year I took a tron of abuse for saying that I thought that Schwartz was one of, if not the best RT in the NFL. When he left, many people said it was no big deal. I said it was a disaster. The one guy, out of our free agents, who I felt we could least afford to lose, was Schwartz. (and I felt that Mack was gone from the word go, so I didn't blame the front office for that one)
Man, think about this ..... we could have had Greco slide to Center, and have Pasztur go to Guard, and our OL would be a whole lot better than it is with Erving at Center and Pasztur out of position at RT.
I agree w/101 that it's not a good idea for the players to be bad-mouthing the FO and coaching staff.
Joe gets a pass, but that's it.
I think that Joe may have decided that a trade might not be the worst thing in the world this coming off-season. That's just me reading his language and body language lately. Maybe he's decided to start speaking up more, in hopes of making the front office take steps to improve the team in every way possible. Who knows? I know that it sure seems that he is irritated and frustrated.
I don't think you took too much abuse for liking Schwartz. Most people wanted to keep him. There was even a thread about him and Mack in the K-9 Consensus forum that proves that point.
I hated seeing us let Schwartz go. last year I took a tron of abuse for saying that I thought that Schwartz was one of, if not the best RT in the NFL. When he left, many people said it was no big deal. I said it was a disaster. The one guy, out of our free agents, who I felt we could least afford to lose, was Schwartz. (and I felt that Mack was gone from the word go, so I didn't blame the front office for that one)
Man, think about this ..... we could have had Greco slide to Center, and have Pasztur go to Guard, and our OL would be a whole lot better than it is with Erving at Center and Pasztur out of position at RT.
Admittedly, I was never a Schwartz fan. Every time I watched the guy, it seemed like he was getting beat in pass protection. Now the guy was a good run blocker.
The bigger hit was seeing Mack go. He was one of the best at the position. We miss him so bad especially with all the injuries and Cam, who is just awful.
I think the vast majority of poster were upset that Schwartz and Mack did not stick around. Myself and a few other were less concerned about.
the fact that we were first in rushing the ball up until Bitiono went down/ the NE game. tells me what I need to know about that topic, still not concerned they are gone. would it be cool if they stayed? sure, but not going to lose any sleep over it.
hearing from all of the players is just going to breed a dysfunctional locker room...better to keep that stuff said in house.
101...I do not believe in the politically correct BS that NFL teams attempt to establish as the way things should be handled...never criticize the front office or the owner.
What I find interesting...all this crap about Mack not wanting to be here in Cleveland...why would JT criticize the front office for not resigning Mack if there was never a chance for the Harvard Boys to sign him?
Mack wanted to paid for what he was...the best center in the NFL...and "the boys" were convinced that Cam Erving could step right in at center and we would never miss Alex Mack.
The moneyball boys were wrong and the players know it. Joe Thomas is full of frustration and not afraid to break the unwritten rule about criticizing management.
It needs to come out and needs to be discussed or the same idiotic crap will be repeated again by the owner and his moneyballers.
Hell, it would be better if Haslam and Depodesta, Sashi and Berry manned up and admitted, THEY SCREWED UP.
I think it is safe to say, the inexperience of the front office is beginning to show.
I think you miss interpreted what I was trying to convey.
I think if you need to voice your opinion on the state of things. Then that should be done behind closed doors. not a good look to be doing that, using the medium he did.
101...no, I didn't misinterpret anything..I stated my opinion.
I commend any players for telling the truth and if there are some in the front office unhappy with that, then the front office has yet another problem..they want everyone to lie for them.
The Harvard Boys have proven that they suck at analyzing offensive line talent and QB talent and now there should be no more argument about who was responsible for the OLine decisions.
Not a thing wrong with telling the truth with the doors wide open.
These are the type of players you build a football team around. I hope that the Harvard boys find a way to plug these "basic qualities" into the complex analytics formulas they use to draft players.
I saw the word "stronger" and immediately thought of Nassib. I think he's basically got no strength right now. He gets stonewalled and has no other recourse. He needs to gain strength and the ability to bull rush
My questions as well, Swish. What kind of grades. One year is a red flag for me. Hope he has skills. We need at least one QB this draft. We seem to talk ourselves out of quality and trading down for more picks which is theoretically OK, but with our talent pickers, not good.
Step away from the koolaid for this one. Get better. Browns, heal thyselves.
I saw the word "stronger" and immediately thought of Nassib. I think he's basically got no strength right now. He gets stonewalled and has no other recourse. He needs to gain strength and the ability to bull rush
4Life...yep, you can see that Nassib has nothing for those experienced veteran like Marcus Gilbert, 6-6, 330lbs...Gilbert dominated Nassib, 6-7, 273lbs (listed).
If Nassib is going to become anything in the NFL, he must improve his strength and speed. I do believe he has the attitude and desire to be "something" other than average.
The Steelers do their best to apply BIGGER, STRONGER, FASTER when they look for players to draft...guys like QB, Rothlisberger, 6-5, 240...Le'Veon Bell was listed as 6-2, 240 when drafted...LT, Villanueva, 6-9, 320(-340), was an Army Ranger, who was determined to pursue dream of playing in the NFL. The Steelers signed in Jan 2015 and moved him to LT, where he gained 90lbs and became the full time starter at LT for the Steelers this season
When the Steelers needed a yard or two at the goal line, they ran Bell over the LT.
Bigger, stronger, faster, tougher and smarter is not a bunch of BS. Most NFL teams include these qualities when evaluating players in the draft...but I'm not sure if the Browns front office with their analytics value these basic qualities.
hearing from all of the players is just going to breed a dysfunctional locker room...better to keep that stuff said in house.
101...I do not believe in the politically correct BS that NFL teams attempt to establish as the way things should be handled...never criticize the front office or the owner.
What I find interesting...all this crap about Mack not wanting to be here in Cleveland...why would JT criticize the front office for not resigning Mack if there was never a chance for the Harvard Boys to sign him?
Mack wanted to paid for what he was...the best center in the NFL...and "the boys" were convinced that Cam Erving could step right in at center and we would never miss Alex Mack.
The moneyball boys were wrong and the players know it. Joe Thomas is full of frustration and not afraid to break the unwritten rule about criticizing management.
It needs to come out and needs to be discussed or the same idiotic crap will be repeated again by the owner and his moneyballers.
Hell, it would be better if Haslam and Depodesta, Sashi and Berry manned up and admitted, THEY SCREWED UP.
I think it is safe to say, the inexperience of the front office is beginning to show.
I think you miss interpreted what I was trying to convey.
I think if you need to voice your opinion on the state of things. Then that should be done behind closed doors. not a good look to be doing that, using the medium he did.
101...no, I didn't misinterpret anything..I stated my opinion.
I commend any players for telling the truth and if there are some in the front office unhappy with that, then the front office has yet another problem..they want everyone to lie for them.
The Harvard Boys have proven that they suck at analyzing offensive line talent and QB talent and now there should be no more argument about who was responsible for the OLine decisions.
Not a thing wrong with telling the truth with the doors wide open.
Yep you have no agenda whatsoever and would never stoop to calling grown men boys to paint the picture you are selling to the rest of us.
Every game we play, we look slower, smaller, weaker than our opponent. And that isn't just this year. It's been every year since the return.
I see players getting drafted by other teams who I think are too small. A year or 2 later and they are noticeably bigger. I don't think I can think of one Browns player that I have noticed getting bigger and stronger while on the Browns.
What is wrong with our strength and conditioning staffs over the years?
Especially on defense...guys, we have pretty much zero veteran leadership.
Look how many rookies/2nd year players we have.
All over the team. We basically fielded a bunch of college kids out there, and now everybody is pissed at Hue for what?
That's not on hue, that's on the FO.
Look at the teams around the league. They have their first round rookies playing along side veterans. Guys who have seen it all. They can learn from that.
Our team has to figure it out pretty much all on their own.
The front office provides the talent, the coaching staff then tries develop that talent.
Hue has made his mistakes and misjudgments, but he had little to do with setting draft priorities and strategies, based on analytics.
I have a very hard time believing that Hue would draft Cody Kessler over Dak Prescott...the difference in talent was so obvious. Someone over Hue (Depo, Sash or Haslam) told Hue that he could not draft Prescott.
The only change I want to see is the addition of an experienced football evaluator added to the draft team.
Also, it's up to Hue to evaluate his coaching staff and if changes need to be made, he should decide, not the front office.
Every game we play, we look slower, smaller, weaker than our opponent. And that isn't just this year. It's been every year since the return.
jester...you are right, you can see it with our offensive line and with our RBs. I see it when the Browns attempt to run the ball on a 3rd and 1...the offensive line gets crushed and our RB is usually stoned at the LOS.
Why don't the Browns have a big back on the roster, capable of getting a yard?
Why don't the Browns have a center who stops penetration in middle instead of getting his butt pushed back in the face of the QB?
It all comes down to the "front office priorities"...the type of players their analytics tell them who should be drafted. Just one problem...BASEBALL IS NOT THE SAME AS FOOTBALL.
Also, let's not overlook the other "obvious" concern of the Browns front office..."MONEY"...
The MONEYBALLERS are cheap, taking the cheapest option in most cases. What does CHEAP get you in the NFL?...an 0-11 season on Nov 20, 2016.
The front office will not admit it, but $$$ are plugged into their formulas and $$$ carry weight when it comes to deciding who stays on the roster and who goes.
Leading the NFL in cap space and fielding an offensive line that is the worst in the NFL, kind of sums up just what the front office priorities were once the Harvard boys were hired by Haslam in Jan.
There is so much wrong with this franchise...I don't know where you begin, in an attempt to improve the Browns.
...and if this crap doesn't get fixed, we will see another repeat performance next season.
you have to remember those two...Mack and Schwartz were his best friends on the team. He would say nothing but praises with both. Mack is a great center that is for sure. Schwartz is ok-to-good. Actually Pasztor is getting statistically many of the same numbers Schwartz got. He has improved...btw where did Shwartz go and how is he doing there?
We lost a lot of continuity when we lost Mack and Schwartz...trying to compare to this UNIT after they have been together for games not Years and mostly with Mack at Center making the line calls. Made a difference. I don't see the drop off at RT that great to lament about individually...the loss of continuity and Mack making the calls was great!
Let these guys build an OL. I have not been impressed with our OL coach. Our blocking Schemes does not look good. Letting our RBs block one on one with the opponents premier Pass Rushers was just dumb...the RBs got square up to those pass rushers only to get totally pushed backwards especially when the pass rushers had a running start right at them and out weighed the RBs by 20-30 lbs. at the least. And we kept doing it??? I see a lot of teams struggle with the edge rushers but they usually have a TE right there to meet them before they get a running start to their goal. No clue why we didn't use a TE to help instead of relying on the RB to pick the DEs or OLBs who got a complete full head of steam. Just stupid. Didn't like it at all. jmho
hearing from all of the players is just going to breed a dysfunctional locker room...better to keep that stuff said in house.
101...I do not believe in the politically correct BS that NFL teams attempt to establish as the way things should be handled...never criticize the front office or the owner.
What I find interesting...all this crap about Mack not wanting to be here in Cleveland...why would JT criticize the front office for not resigning Mack if there was never a chance for the Harvard Boys to sign him?
Mack wanted to paid for what he was...the best center in the NFL...and "the boys" were convinced that Cam Erving could step right in at center and we would never miss Alex Mack.
The moneyball boys were wrong and the players know it. Joe Thomas is full of frustration and not afraid to break the unwritten rule about criticizing management.
It needs to come out and needs to be discussed or the same idiotic crap will be repeated again by the owner and his moneyballers.
Hell, it would be better if Haslam and Depodesta, Sashi and Berry manned up and admitted, THEY SCREWED UP.
I think it is safe to say, the inexperience of the front office is beginning to show.
I think you miss interpreted what I was trying to convey.
I think if you need to voice your opinion on the state of things. Then that should be done behind closed doors. not a good look to be doing that, using the medium he did.
101...no, I didn't misinterpret anything..I stated my opinion.
I commend any players for telling the truth and if there are some in the front office unhappy with that, then the front office has yet another problem..they want everyone to lie for them.
The Harvard Boys have proven that they suck at analyzing offensive line talent and QB talent and now there should be no more argument about who was responsible for the OLine decisions.
Not a thing wrong with telling the truth with the doors wide open.
mac...if the FO men are so bad at identifying talent on the O-line, then why were leading the league in rushing 6 straight weeks before Bitiono went down for the year?
So you are also saying that any player should jump on tv and slam the FO and HC? then pat them on the back for being "truthful" bringing it all to light?
When players do that on other teams they are called a "cancer" in the locker room. but you seem to think that it would be a welcome relief when players do that here...something wrong with that line of thinking...
don't get me wrong you can believe whatever it is that suits your fancy, I'm just not buying it.
Mack didn't want to be here end of story..non issue for me...not worth a discussion.
moneyball? you throw that term around a lot, not sure you fully understand what that really means...being cheap and being frugal are two completely different things altogether.
I hate stats also especially OL stats, I bring it up (you were not here much) because of those STATS from PFF all of a sudden to many Schwartz became Great. I was one of the few as usually in his corner observing him get better with each season. Well this is Pasztor's first season with us playing RT. I was hoping that kid Shon Coleman would have won the job but he was hurt from the draft till about mid training camp.
All these rookies also have hit the wall. They finish their season get a little break before bowl games. Then its off to preparing for the Draft...then its mini camps and then Training camp and they just are burnt out and their conditioning was for the Combine and shorts not for football. Why there is a jump big one year two from one... Shelton was a good example. Got conditioned for the NFL and it has paid off.
OL guys. Coleman, Drango actually has been a big surprise for me. I would like to see him year two he has good feet. I still don't blame this FO for not signing Mack nor Schwartz...it should have been done by the previous regime. To get into the mix in February putting together a new staff getting ready for the combine/draft Both parties wanted to see what FA had in store for them and didn't accept our fair offers. Mack I don't think we had any chance to resign he did everything but come out and say that after we did the firings and reboot. Schwartz on the other hand something happened there that we don't know. All I know is we made a fair offer and he denied us...after testing the market and realizing his FA was wrong about 10+ per season out there. He came back we said not for the previous contract...that is off the table as his market value has changed and I guess both felt insulted...again Schwartz is not the guy who got away! He was good but not that hard to replace.
How many years will Haslam give these guys. In general 3 years. If we are winless or picking #1 2018 it could be 2 years. If we keep getting better and that includes our WINS it could carry on to 4 or more. JMHO
I have watched a few Chiefs games and Schwartz has played very well. Announcers have noted that Schwartz has been the best and most consistent offensive linemen for the Chiefs. Same has been said about Mac in Atlanta.
If they can't even Win 1 game, then they would be right to clean house(the only time it would be justified)The previous firings of Crennell, Mangini, and god help me...Holmgren and Shurmur showed enough to be given more years...but this....this....really?
No one in the league would expect to survive an 0-16 season, and no one in the NFL is going to hold it against Haslam for cleaning house under an 0-16 season as it would be justifiable....im sorry but if they go 0-16 I don't want to see year 2, year 1 was impossible to stomach.
They got 4 games left...if they can't win 1 damn game then Haslam needs to clean house and can the damn anaylitic moneyball garbage and atleast try to get an NFL compentent Front Office.
Heck I would be ok with keeping Hue Jackson long as we canned Sashi, Depodesta and the rest of these front office clowns.
I think Hue is salvable coach...i think with good Front Office support he could win here...but he don't have a chance in Hades with Moneyball running the show...
Agree on the wall ... been preaching that for awhile now ... U weren't around but many were saying the 2nd half of the season would be better ... i said i didn't see it and one of the reasons was the rooks would hit the wall ...
We never had a shot with Mack ... he wanted to win ... that was his bottom line ... no probs with the FO on that one ... nuttin they could do ...
Schwartz was never as bad as Pastzor ... but thats irrleivent at this point ...
The FO messed up with Schwartz .. that is 100% on them .. when he came back they pulled the offer ... they decided to make an example of him ... STUPID ...
You'll never convince me otherwise bro ... worst case ... 1 LESS POSITION TO FILL TODAY ...
Hopefully Coleman can step up and be the man ... at this point we have no clue ...
Dude .. they tore the entire thing down ... witch i have NO PROBLEM WITH ... (vers .. have zero faith in the re-construction crew ... but i agree with tearing it down .. ) ..
I said it before the season started ...
HC - Lombardi OC - Walsh DC - Billicheck ..
Still would have been lucky to win 4 games ...
And i am no huge fan of Hues and have ZERO faith in the FO .. but they don't deserve to be fired after this year no matter our record ... if we went 0 - 16 next year .. thats an entirely different story .. NO WAY THAT HAPPENS!!!
hearing from all of the players is just going to breed a dysfunctional locker room...better to keep that stuff said in house.
101...I do not believe in the politically correct BS that NFL teams attempt to establish as the way things should be handled...never criticize the front office or the owner.
What I find interesting...all this crap about Mack not wanting to be here in Cleveland...why would JT criticize the front office for not resigning Mack if there was never a chance for the Harvard Boys to sign him?
Mack wanted to paid for what he was...the best center in the NFL...and "the boys" were convinced that Cam Erving could step right in at center and we would never miss Alex Mack.
The moneyball boys were wrong and the players know it. Joe Thomas is full of frustration and not afraid to break the unwritten rule about criticizing management.
It needs to come out and needs to be discussed or the same idiotic crap will be repeated again by the owner and his moneyballers.
Hell, it would be better if Haslam and Depodesta, Sashi and Berry manned up and admitted, THEY SCREWED UP.
I think it is safe to say, the inexperience of the front office is beginning to show.
I think you miss interpreted what I was trying to convey.
I think if you need to voice your opinion on the state of things. Then that should be done behind closed doors. not a good look to be doing that, using the medium he did.
101...no, I didn't misinterpret anything..I stated my opinion.
I commend any players for telling the truth and if there are some in the front office unhappy with that, then the front office has yet another problem..they want everyone to lie for them.
The Harvard Boys have proven that they suck at analyzing offensive line talent and QB talent and now there should be no more argument about who was responsible for the OLine decisions.
Not a thing wrong with telling the truth with the doors wide open.
mac...if the FO men are so bad at identifying talent on the O-line, then why were leading the league in rushing 6 straight weeks before Bitiono went down for the year?
So you are also saying that any player should jump on tv and slam the FO and HC? then pat them on the back for being "truthful" bringing it all to light?
When players do that on other teams they are called a "cancer" in the locker room. but you seem to think that it would be a welcome relief when players do that here...something wrong with that line of thinking...
don't get me wrong you can believe whatever it is that suits your fancy, I'm just not buying it.
Mack didn't want to be here end of story..non issue for me...not worth a discussion.
moneyball? you throw that term around a lot, not sure you fully understand what that really means...being cheap and being frugal are two completely different things altogether.
Are you really trying to say bitono was the only reason we could run the ball?
If they can't even Win 1 game, then they would be right to clean house(the only time it would be justified)The previous firings of Crennell, Mangini, and god help me...Holmgren and Shurmur showed enough to be given more years...but this....this....really?
No one in the league would expect to survive an 0-16 season, and no one in the NFL is going to hold it against Haslam for cleaning house under an 0-16 season as it would be justifiable....im sorry but if they go 0-16 I don't want to see year 2, year 1 was impossible to stomach.
They got 4 games left...if they can't win 1 damn game then Haslam needs to clean house and can the damn anaylitic moneyball garbage and atleast try to get an NFL compentent Front Office.
Heck I would be ok with keeping Hue Jackson long as we canned Sashi, Depodesta and the rest of these front office clowns.
I think Hue is salvable coach...i think with good Front Office support he could win here...but he don't have a chance in Hades with Moneyball running the show...
Problem with cleaning house is no one respectable is going to go near this train wreck. We would be stuck with another rookie GM making rookie mistakes. Unfortunately, keeping Sashi is our "best" choice.
hearing from all of the players is just going to breed a dysfunctional locker room...better to keep that stuff said in house.
101...I do not believe in the politically correct BS that NFL teams attempt to establish as the way things should be handled...never criticize the front office or the owner.
What I find interesting...all this crap about Mack not wanting to be here in Cleveland...why would JT criticize the front office for not resigning Mack if there was never a chance for the Harvard Boys to sign him?
Mack wanted to paid for what he was...the best center in the NFL...and "the boys" were convinced that Cam Erving could step right in at center and we would never miss Alex Mack.
The moneyball boys were wrong and the players know it. Joe Thomas is full of frustration and not afraid to break the unwritten rule about criticizing management.
It needs to come out and needs to be discussed or the same idiotic crap will be repeated again by the owner and his moneyballers.
Hell, it would be better if Haslam and Depodesta, Sashi and Berry manned up and admitted, THEY SCREWED UP.
I think it is safe to say, the inexperience of the front office is beginning to show.
I think you miss interpreted what I was trying to convey.
I think if you need to voice your opinion on the state of things. Then that should be done behind closed doors. not a good look to be doing that, using the medium he did.
101...no, I didn't misinterpret anything..I stated my opinion.
I commend any players for telling the truth and if there are some in the front office unhappy with that, then the front office has yet another problem..they want everyone to lie for them.
The Harvard Boys have proven that they suck at analyzing offensive line talent and QB talent and now there should be no more argument about who was responsible for the OLine decisions.
Not a thing wrong with telling the truth with the doors wide open.
mac...if the FO men are so bad at identifying talent on the O-line, then why were leading the league in rushing 6 straight weeks before Bitiono went down for the year?
So you are also saying that any player should jump on tv and slam the FO and HC? then pat them on the back for being "truthful" bringing it all to light?
When players do that on other teams they are called a "cancer" in the locker room. but you seem to think that it would be a welcome relief when players do that here...something wrong with that line of thinking...
don't get me wrong you can believe whatever it is that suits your fancy, I'm just not buying it.
Mack didn't want to be here end of story..non issue for me...not worth a discussion.
moneyball? you throw that term around a lot, not sure you fully understand what that really means...being cheap and being frugal are two completely different things altogether.
Are you really trying to say bitono was the only reason we could run the ball?
nope, not at all. I see you answered my question with a question. Ok i'll play along.
Bitiono was not the only reason we were able to run the ball so well, but he played a big part of it imo. Bitiono goes down and Bailey? steps in and Cam went down. now Greco has to slide over to play Center leaving the RG duties to someone else who is not as good as he is. So to review, we have two starters out and one playing a position that is not his. that is 3/5 of our line. When they were healthy we did lead the league in rushing. So that tells me that they were doing there jobs for the most part. Even with the almighty Mack and god like Schwartz we couldn't do that...so in my mind the line was better than last years squad...so they must have talent to pull that off right?
Now I am not saying they are thee very best judges of talent, but seems to me are not that bad yet...but it is year one. Let's see how they do come next off season.
Even with the almighty Mack and god like Schwartz we couldn't do that...so in my mind the line was better than last years squad...so they must have talent to pull that off right?
Now I am not saying they are thee very best judges of talent, but seems to me are not that bad yet...but it is year one. Let's see how they do come next off season.
101...if offensive linemen were only judged on run blocking...but they are not.
If QBs only handed the ball off to rbs...but that is a minor part of a QBs job in Cleveland. The Browns pass the ball 2/3s of time, so we might want to consider an OLineman's complete performance, and not just the minor portion.
The Browns OLine now holds the #1 spot...the very worst offensive line when it comes to protecting their QB..leading in both sacks and QB hits. Unofficially, the Browns have ranked near the top all season in QB injuries.
This front office did not even try to keep Mack, believing that they held the answer to the Browns center position, when Cam Erving was drafted in 2015..after he played only 5 games at center (in college).
...sound judgement by the Harvard Boys?
Then there is the front office's bizarre decision to pull their offer to Schwartz. That decision and the way it was handled by the Browns should have cost someone their job..but the front sold it as Schwartz's fault and that the front office had already allocated their funding for the RT position to sign Alvin Bailey.
...was this sound judgement by the Harvard Boys?
The front office signed Bailey, who played both OT and OG for Seahawks.
Drafted (3rd) Shon Colman, OT, Auburn, who was a cancer survivor and was coming off of knee surgery. He has not started a game.
Drafted (5rd) Spencer Drango, OG, Baylor. who has started 3 games.
For 2016, this was the offensive line plan. Losing Mack and Schwartz and this is the way the Harvard Boys fix the mess they made of a good offensive line. They did save Cap Space and money...
It is obvious that the Harvard Boys did not understand the importance of the offensive line in the game of football. Given Sashi's lack of experience in football and Depodesta being a baseball guy, it would not shock me a bit if money was a highest priority for the Browns front office when it came to filling the OLine needs.
What the Havard Boys built, WAS THE WORST OFFENSIVE LINE IN THE NFL.
The question becomes, did the Harvard Boys learn anything from their mistakes?...can you teach the Elite Thinkers anything about the basics in the game of football...or do they believe they have all the answers?
I believe these Boys will continue to put a very low priority on the offensive line, as long as they are completely in charge of the front office.
I disagree w/you about our offensive line. While it certainly hurt that the Browns lost Mack and Schwartz, the Browns OL is not the worst in football. Using stats to prove your point does not paint a complete picture.
It is obvious that the Harvard Boys did not understand the importance of the offensive line in the game of football. Given Sashi's lack of experience in football and Depodesta being a baseball guy, it would not shock me a bit if money was a highest priority for the Browns front office when it came to filling the OLine needs.
I don't know how anyone can come to the conclusion that it's "obvious" that the FO doesn't value the offensive line. I think they clearly made a mistake with how they handled the Mitchell Schwartz situation but that doesn't mean they don't value the RT spot.
Joe Thomas-- Don't need to draft high for his spot.
Joel Bitonio- Don't need to draft high for his spot.
Cam Erving- Although not playing well this year, he just finished up a rookie year playing multiple spots. I'm not going to get into the Alex Mack situation....again. He was gone.
John Greco-- although I think he was the weakest link in the oline last year, there is certainly no urgency to replace him with a high draft slot.
Mitchell Schwartz-- a FO blunder that was potentially addressed with a third rounder.
What trends justify saying the FO doesn't care about the FO? One year of drafting? Would you have preferred we addressed the RT spot in our first or second round selections? Or center? Is that what you're suggesting? I think taking Shon Coleman in the third round is a decent draft slot commitment to the offensive line. However, the issue is, with ANY FRONT OFFICE, is hitting on those picks more than not. We'll see if that happens.
I disagree w/you about our offensive line. While it certainly hurt that the Browns lost Mack and Schwartz, the Browns OL is not the worst in football. Using stats to prove your point does not paint a complete picture.
vers...you have the right to be wrong.
The Browns have the worst offensive line in the NFL...
Since the Browns offense relies on the pass 2/3s of the time, protecting our QB is more important when considering their performance.
The Browns offensive line is the worst in the NFL when it comes to protecting their QB...#1 is sacks given up...#1 in qb hits...and #1 (unofficially) in QBs butchered/injured.
That argument is as dumb as the one made in my thread where people are saying Wentz sucks by using stats. There is so much more to picture than pure stats.
You are not factoring in the scores of the games. You are not factoring in how long the qbs hold the ball. You are not factoring in if the receivers are open are not. You are not factoring in the effectiveness of a ground game. You mention it, but you seemingly are ignoring how often teams pass the ball.
It's a biased opinion and you are using a raw stat to make an absolute evaluation. It's dumb and annoying.
Memp...Erving is in his second season in the NFL and is probably more responsible for getting our QBs killed than any other lineman.
At the very least, the Boys need to draft a center. Then they need to take a strong look at where they stand at OT. Pasz is a below average OT...is that kind of quality you build a winning franchise on?
Coleman, a cancer survivor who still has not recovered from a knee surgery done in Jan 2016. The front office should be concerned about his dependability. You cannot pencil him in anywhere until he proves it on the field.
The situation with Joe Thomas should be a concern. His frustration at the front office is beginning to show and he could demand a trade or even retire at any time and it would not surprise me a bit.
I would take a serious look at drafting Cam Robinson, OT out of Alabama with the first pick. The the Browns will be set at OT for hopefully the next decade.
That argument is as dumb as the one made in my thread where people are saying Wentz sucks by using stats. There is so much more to picture than pure stats.
Argue with the freaking FACTS...and you think that is dumb.
I guess when you have nothing to point to in support of your position, you just claim that the response is dumb..according to "you"!
Did you even watch this offensive line against the Steelers?
They gave up 8 sacks and 13 QB hits...tell me, did the Browns OLine pass your eye test?
That argument is as dumb as the one made in my thread where people are saying Wentz sucks by using stats. There is so much more to picture than pure stats.
Argue with the freaking FACTS...and you think that is dumb.
I guess when you have nothing to point to in support of your position, you just claim that the response is dumb..according to "you"!
Did you even watch this offensive line against the Steelers?
They gave up 8 sacks and 13 QB hits...tell me, did the Browns OLine pass your eye test?
I did argue your position. You simply chose to ignore it. Here it is again:
You are not factoring in the scores of the games. You are not factoring in how long the qbs hold the ball. You are not factoring in if the receivers are open are not. You are not factoring in the effectiveness of a ground game. You mention it, but you seemingly are ignoring how often teams pass the ball.
Even with the almighty Mack and god like Schwartz we couldn't do that...so in my mind the line was better than last years squad...so they must have talent to pull that off right?
Now I am not saying they are thee very best judges of talent, but seems to me are not that bad yet...but it is year one. Let's see how they do come next off season.
101...if offensive linemen were only judged on run blocking...but they are not.
If QBs only handed the ball off to rbs...but that is a minor part of a QBs job in Cleveland. The Browns pass the ball 2/3s of time, so we might want to consider an OLineman's complete performance, and not just the minor portion.
The Browns OLine now holds the #1 spot...the very worst offensive line when it comes to protecting their QB..leading in both sacks and QB hits. Unofficially, the Browns have ranked near the top all season in QB injuries.
This front office did not even try to keep Mack, believing that they held the answer to the Browns center position, when Cam Erving was drafted in 2015..after he played only 5 games at center (in college).
...sound judgement by the Harvard Boys?
Then there is the front office's bizarre decision to pull their offer to Schwartz. That decision and the way it was handled by the Browns should have cost someone their job..but the front sold it as Schwartz's fault and that the front office had already allocated their funding for the RT position to sign Alvin Bailey.
...was this sound judgement by the Harvard Boys?
The front office signed Bailey, who played both OT and OG for Seahawks.
Drafted (3rd) Shon Colman, OT, Auburn, who was a cancer survivor and was coming off of knee surgery. He has not started a game.
Drafted (5rd) Spencer Drango, OG, Baylor. who has started 3 games.
For 2016, this was the offensive line plan. Losing Mack and Schwartz and this is the way the Harvard Boys fix the mess they made of a good offensive line. They did save Cap Space and money...
It is obvious that the Harvard Boys did not understand the importance of the offensive line in the game of football. Given Sashi's lack of experience in football and Depodesta being a baseball guy, it would not shock me a bit if money was a highest priority for the Browns front office when it came to filling the OLine needs.
What the Havard Boys built, WAS THE WORST OFFENSIVE LINE IN THE NFL.
The question becomes, did the Harvard Boys learn anything from their mistakes?...can you teach the Elite Thinkers anything about the basics in the game of football...or do they believe they have all the answers?
I believe these Boys will continue to put a very low priority on the offensive line, as long as they are completely in charge of the front office.
The only thing that is obvious is that you are judging a long term plan halfway through the first season and that you understand bashing front offices better than you understand football.
That argument is as dumb as the one made in my thread where people are saying Wentz sucks by using stats. There is so much more to picture than pure stats.
Argue with the freaking FACTS...and you think that is dumb.
I guess when you have nothing to point to in support of your position, you just claim that the response is dumb..according to "you"!
Did you even watch this offensive line against the Steelers?
They gave up 8 sacks and 13 QB hits...tell me, did the Browns OLine pass your eye test?
I did argue your position. You simply chose to ignore it. Here it is again:
You are not factoring in the scores of the games. You are not factoring in how long the qbs hold the ball. You are not factoring in if the receivers are open are not. You are not factoring in the effectiveness of a ground game. You mention it, but you seemingly are ignoring how often teams pass the ball.
vers...every game I watch, I see QBs hang onto the ball too long and if they have a decent offensive line, they do not get beat up like the Browns QBs do.
It does not matter what QB we put in, either. If you watch the difference between a good OLine and a poor one...pay attention to how fast your OLine gives up ground.
That is a major problem with the Browns OLine..they are "weak" not strong enough to hold ground, so their first move is to give up a yard or two before the QB has even reached his full drop. In other words, the Browns pocket is collapsing so much quicker than your average OLine that the QB not only has less time to get a pass off, but he has a much smaller pocket to operate in.
...that is why the Browns QB hits are so high and it why our QBs are getting killed at a record rate.
This OLine is the worst I've seen in Cleveland for some time.
...and it must be addressed, or it will be more of the same, next season.
Got to draft a center and I would draft JT's replacement now, selecting Cam Robinson with the 1st pick.
I see QBs hang onto the ball too long and if they have a decent offensive line, they do not get beat up like the Browns QBs do.
Then I am not sure that you understand what the definition of "too long" is.
Quote:
This OLine is the worst I've seen in Cleveland for some time.
...and it must be addressed, or it will be more of the same, next season.
You must have a very short memory because Thomas, Bitonio, and Greco are 3 of the best o-line players that we have had since the expansion and we have them all on the same team. We might be adding Reiter to that list next year as well. Granted we were even better with Mack and Schwartz, but we are nowhere near the worst o-line.
In 99 the starting oline was: LT- 36 year old Lomas Brown LG- Jim Pyne - who was decent, but we only had him for two seasons C- Dave Wohlabaugh RG - Scott Rehberg RT - Orlando "Zeus" Brown- took a penalty flag to the eye and didn't even make it through the first season.
[quote]I see QBs hang onto the ball too long and if they have a decent offensive line, they do not get beat up like the Browns QBs do.
Then I am not sure that you understand what the definition of "too long" is.
I was referring to "Too Long" by Browns standards...which is any amount of time past the first read..if our QB even gets to his first read.
Here is an example of a QB hanging on to the ball too long, but still having the time needed to complete his pass for a TD.
NOTE: click the video play button, then click the link "Watch on YouTube"
A Browns QB would settle for half that amount of time.
...and just so everyone knows how an offense like Dallas runs the ball and passes the ball like they do...this is as simple as I can make so everyone understands what the Browns front office needs to do...
NOTE: click the video play button, then click the link "Watch this video on YouTube"
Amazing! Pick one fluke play with blocking from the best o-line in football and set that as the standard to go by.
Any team in the NFL would be extremely happy with half of that 8 seconds that Prescott got on that play because 4 seconds is still about double what most QB's get. The NFL average is like about 2.28 seconds. None of our QB's are getting the ball out that quick.
This image is from the 2014 season. Open it in a new tab to see a bigger version.
That argument is as dumb as the one made in my thread where people are saying Wentz sucks by using stats. There is so much more to picture than pure stats.
Argue with the freaking FACTS...and you think that is dumb.
I guess when you have nothing to point to in support of your position, you just claim that the response is dumb..according to "you"!
Did you even watch this offensive line against the Steelers?
They gave up 8 sacks and 13 QB hits...tell me, did the Browns OLine pass your eye test?
I did argue your position. You simply chose to ignore it. Here it is again:
You are not factoring in the scores of the games. You are not factoring in how long the qbs hold the ball. You are not factoring in if the receivers are open are not. You are not factoring in the effectiveness of a ground game. You mention it, but you seemingly are ignoring how often teams pass the ball.
I agree with both you and mac to a certain extent. Our OL is neither as good as some make out (including some analytics sites) or as bad as others make out. I do think our OL may lead the league in stupifyingly bad looking plays, and they are pointed to enough that they become the narrative on the OL. Maybe it just seems that way because I don't read other teams message boards looking for their lowlights.
The OL does have good plays, but people haven't been posting clips of them.
I honestly think our biggest problem is that we aren't particularly cohesive. For a new system with a bunch of new players, it is to be expected. Our timing is terrible. The QB and receivers don't seem to have it which makes the line need to block longer on pass plays. The line and the RBs don't have particularly good timing which causes TFLs because they aren't where expected. Individual people do the same "play" differently, so you don't just have to know the play, but how the other guys are going to run it. We don't have that at all. I think individuals can do their job, but they don't know how each other are going to respond to different looks.
It's not necessarily a problem with the "plan" exactly, it's just inevitable when there is so much new.
You can plug a rookie into an established system and it can work (See Dallas). If the rest of the guys see things the same way and know what to do, that's something the rookie doesn't have to worry about. We didn't have experience in this system, and we have a bunch of rookies. It's not super surprising that it often looks like an uncoordinated mess. We aren't a "well-oiled machine." We're more of a prototype that still has a ton of kinks to work out.
I wish we would get something working before we going adding more to the system. If we were an assembly line, we're kind of trying to get the Lamborghini at the end of the line, when I'm not even sure we've got the frame designed properly yet.
I don't know if it's fair to lay the blame at either the FO or the coaching staff. They both have some blame, but there were a ton of problems they were faced with in the first place which they had little/no control over.
Anyone would need time to overcome those problems and get the kinks worked out. They should have a better understanding of the issues now at least. New people would have to start that figuring out all over again, and constant turnover is one of the problems that needs to be overcome.
I had definitely been hoping for better, but there was a pretty big mess to take over and try to clean up. Time and familiarity should help some next year. How much remains to be seen.
Amazing! Pick one fluke play with blocking from the best o-line in football and set that as the standard to go by.
Any team in the NFL would be extremely happy with half of that 8 seconds that Prescott got on that play because 4 seconds is still about double what most QB's get. The NFL average is like about 2.28 seconds. None of our QB's are getting the ball out that quick.
dep...here is the point I'm making...the Browns front office now stands at a junction, whether to build a superior offensive line capable of exceptional play, such as run blocking well enough to have a top 10 RB in the NFL...
...and pass blocking well enough to protect their QBs from taking a physical beating and allowing them more than enough time to go through progressions?
Put a 4th round rookie QB and a first round RB behind the Cowboys offensive line and the production from those rookies might be good enough to compete in a Super Bowl.
Invest in the offensive line and the performance of your... ...wide receivers will improve, ...TEs will improve, ...RB play will improve, ...QB play will improve.
That would be an excellent return on investment, IMO. Does anyone doubt that Crowell and Duke would be more productive behind a better offensive line that could block like the Cowboys OLine?
If your QB has more time and is protected like the Cowboys OLine does, is there any doubt that the QB play would improve?
If the OLine gives their QB more time, is there anyone who doubts that our WR, TE and RB (pass catching) production would improve?
Teams like Pittsburgh and Dallas have done it for years, put a higher priority on their OLine and both teams have proven, over time, a higher priority on the OLine pays dividends in playoff appearances.
How hard is it to follow the offensive plan that other successful teams in the NFL use?
If this front office cannot follow a simple example that successful teams use, then there is little hope for the Browns under the Moneyballers.
mac, the Browns were leading the league in rushing until NE figured out how to stymie the Brown's offense. That wasn't about the OL, it was about the QB.
I am NOT saying our OL is great, but we've seen far worse here in Cleveland and there are far worse lines in the NFL.
We need to upgrade the RT spot and we certainly need a new center. However, we have three very good pieces in Joe, Bitonio. and Grecco. Pazstor would be a great 6th guy, but even if he is our 5th best linemen, that wouldn't be all that bad.
Do we need to get better? Yes.
Are we the worst in the league? No, not even close. And using a limited stat data base only clouds the truth.
Peen, not sure how much NBA you watch, but I feel like these guys want to do what the 76ers have done. Acquire as many picks as possible by being bad. Replace old guys like with young guys and see what sticks.
Try to find a core of guys who will grow and learn to battle through tough times.
I was alive in 1964. The year I got a drivers license as a matter of fact..I worked at Uncle Bill's, stocking and pushing buggies. I think I made $1.35 per hour. Maybe it was $1.25 per hour, cant remember. I do remember that after putting in maybe 20-25 hours a week I took home maybe $19-$22 dollars a week.
I was proud when I cashed that $45 paycheck. I had money in the pocket.
Except at the start of the season Sashi said this:
Quote:
“I think if anybody has been around our facility, they know how silly that is. We want to win, our expectation is (to win),” Brown said in a wide-ranging interview with reporters ahead of Cleveland’s preseason game against the Buccaneers on Friday. “Just because we have a younger roster doesn’t mean we’re at all trying to lose. I hadn’t seen the comments but if that’s a perception, I would say that’s laughable. We’re all competitive guys, we understand a part of what we need to do is build a winning culture here and everything that we’ve talked about and worked toward is aimed at winning. “And there are no seasons off or, for us, even reps off," he continued. "We want to compete every play and win every chance we get. We go into the season wanting to win 20 games, and getting a win this week is important to us.”
This tells me going winless was never part of the master plan. They made some big mistakes in evaluating what they had and now are scrambling for answers. They do have a lot of draft picks next year so they have a chance to salvage this mess, but their failures this year gives me very little hope that they will succeed.
Sadly I would take the years of 4-5 win seasons over not winning at all.
I was alive in 1964. The year I got a drivers license as a matter of fact..I worked at Uncle Bill's, stocking and pushing buggies. I think I made $1.35 per hour. Maybe it was $1.25 per hour, cant remember. I do remember that after putting in maybe 20-25 hours a week I took home maybe $19-$22 dollars a week.
I was proud when I cashed that $45 paycheck. I had money in the pocket.
really peen i worked at the point from 67 70 making like 90 cents an hr and working 80-90 hrs a week
Sashi Brown, Hue Jackson, Paul DePodesta Sashi Brown (left) and Paul DePodesta (right) made a plan and Hue Jackson (center) is in the midst of dealing with the first year of it. But you must understand what's happening here. (John Kuntz, cleveland.com) Doug Lesmerises, cleveland.com By Doug Lesmerises, cleveland.com Email the author | Follow on Twitter on November 23, 2016 at 9:00 AM, updated November 23, 2016 at 1:52 PM 0 shares CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Eleven losses into an 16-game season, many of the conversation points around the Browns continue to confuse.
If you disagree with this 0-11, your disagreement springs from March, not November. It revolves around choices in free agency, not losses on Sundays.
The points Joe Thomas and Terrelle Pryor made about a thinned-out offensive line letting Browns quarterbacks get hit? Valid. Those were smart criticisms, because they looked big picture, not just at the Sunday scoreboards. And no matter what Hue Jackson says, you want your best players in a lost season standing up and saying this is enough.
Players demanding accountability from the front office for the players in that locker room, while the front office looks to the future, can work together. It's healthy talk aimed at getting better.
It's part of how this winless season has value for the Browns, even if too many people are looking at it the wrong way.
But you can't sit down at this meal, then ask why the cook didn't replace the alternator in your car. Understand your surroundings. You can't refuse to acknowledge what you're dealing with.
Honestly, what are you pining for?
I've read some extreme reactions to this losing. It feels like people are longing for the good old days of 5-11 and 4-12 while staring down the barrel of an 0-16 season that is losing, but at long last, a different kind of losing.
Maybe everyone - fans and media - are just worn down. It's one thing to talk tanking in the spring, and another to live it in the fall. But this is it people. You should take it. But you have to understand it.
Here are 19 points to help you do that.
1. Jackson and the players are trying to win. They must. They are professionals and competitors and no one doubts their desire.
2. Winning this season is not the first priority of the front office. Is that really not obvious? You saw the four starters lost on the first day of free agency and the trades made to add future draft picks, right?
3. If you disagree with that idea and believe that every team every season should prioritize victory in the moment, then your argument ends there. You disagree with the whole idea.
4. Understand that 0-11 is the fruition of that idea, plus some bad injury luck. But you can't look at 0-11 as the failure of the plan when a season like this is part of the plan.
It's not about losing on purpose, it's about looking beyond 2016 from the start and not getting bogged down by the results of these 16 games.
5. The current 53-man roster includes 19 rookies and another 10 players with two seasons of experience or less.
6. Look at the 22 projected starters for Sunday's game vs. the New York Giants. How many are true starters for a winning team? Eleven, max. You aren't the only one who knows this. If you see it, the front office sees it.
7. Confused by the quarterback picture? Of course. Everyone's hurt, but the long-term answer almost certainly isn't here. A 37-year-old backup, an injury-prone free agent flyer and a third-round pick isn't a comprehensive quarterback plan.
You can't evaluate the quarterback future because it almost certainly isn't on the roster. But guess what drastic losing does? Enhances the chances of solving that problem.
8. The offensive line isn't playing well? Of course. Thomas and the injured Joel Bitonio are great NFL linemen. Other than that? Cam Erving, drafted by Ray Farmer, is critical here. Again, what Thomas and Pryor said about getting quarterbacks hurt is true. But there must be and will be new answers here next year.
9. This is a rebuild. This season is the re- part. Look for the build part next season, with the Browns holding 11 picks in the 2017 draft, including four in the first two rounds. Guess what those four picks are? Four starters. Plus there is plenty of salary cap room available.
10. Why does Jackson have to defend Sashi Brown for saying he's not focused on the wins and losses this year? We're all adults here (shout out to the kids reading this). We can deal in reality. Don't be offended by the words that express what anyone with eyes can see.
11. If you don't think Carl Nassib or Emmanuel Ogbah or Corey Coleman or Danny Shelton, etc., are showing signs of life as future players to count on, let's talk. Evaluating the young players who will be around is a huge part of this year. If the front office missed on some, or the coaches aren't developing them properly, then aim your analysis there.
12. If you're worried about guys who are clearly stopgaps missing tackles or blocks, what's your point? That they're not good enough? Or course they aren't good enough.
There are players helping to lose games right now who absolutely will not be here next year. So the poor performances of some of those players has nothing to do with the future.
13. Jackson isn't a winning coach this season, but he wasn't given a roster that could win. Evaluating him on the record makes no sense. Discipline, motivation, play-calling, second-half letdowns – all those are valid discussion points. But not the record.
Don't discount the frustration here. That's a real issues for the guys playing every week. Just keeping this team together may be enough to judge this season a success for Jackson. That's a price you have to pay for this plan, but they'll survive.
14. If you think the front office, one in place for 10 months and one that inherited a 3-13 team with no quarterback and a litany of failed first-round picks, has failed, what tells you that? It can't only be the record.
The play of the young players? Passing on Carson Wentz? OK, but you're walking out of the meal because you didn't like the font on the menu. You aren't even at the appetizers yet.
15. What are you pining for? What has been more successful than what's being tried now? Nothing.
16. It was suggested to me this week that a 5-11 or 4-12 record is better than 0-16 because it would mean you're closer to a winning record the following year.
What?
The Browns have been 4-12, 5-11 or 6-10 in 10 seasons since they returned. They have two winning seasons in that time.
17. If you think losing only leads to losing, then you have first-hand proof -- 5-11 leads to 5-11. What does 0-16 lead to? The Browns have never tried that, have never been willing to truly sacrifice a year of now with an eye toward the future.
That's what this is.
18. Many want to hold that historical lack of success against this group, that nearly two decades of 5-11 somehow makes 0-16 worse. If any group is ever going to succeed here, they have no choice but to ignore the past.
Fans, of course, can't do that. But you need to understand the decision makers can't factor in a past they weren't part of.
19. That doesn't mean this is guaranteed to work or that the front office deserves blind faith. We have no idea if this group can build a team.
But 0-11 that could be 0-16 isn't a sign they can't do it.
It tells us, definitively, that they're trying it a different way.
Except at the start of the season Sashi said this:
Quote:
“I think if anybody has been around our facility, they know how silly that is. We want to win, our expectation is (to win),” Brown said in a wide-ranging interview with reporters ahead of Cleveland’s preseason game against the Buccaneers on Friday. “Just because we have a younger roster doesn’t mean we’re at all trying to lose. I hadn’t seen the comments but if that’s a perception, I would say that’s laughable. We’re all competitive guys, we understand a part of what we need to do is build a winning culture here and everything that we’ve talked about and worked toward is aimed at winning. “And there are no seasons off or, for us, even reps off," he continued. "We want to compete every play and win every chance we get. We go into the season wanting to win 20 games, and getting a win this week is important to us.”
This tells me going winless was never part of the master plan. They made some big mistakes in evaluating what they had and now are scrambling for answers. They do have a lot of draft picks next year so they have a chance to salvage this mess, but their failures this year gives me very little hope that they will succeed.
Sadly I would take the years of 4-5 win seasons over not winning at all.
I do not believe the front office is trying lose all their games as evidence when Sashi talked about being disappointed if the Browns only won 4 games.
Sadly, what we have here is another example of a front office that greatly misjudged...they misjudged the impact of their own actions during free agency.
Cam Erving would step right in at center and Bailey, their free agent, who played both guard and OT for the Seahawks, would take over Schwartz's RT until Shon Coleman was ready to start. ...OR SOMETHING SIMILAR.
So now the Browns are 0-11 and some are still searching for the WHY?
The answer to the WHY is those in charge.."misjudged"..the quality of the talent lost in free agency and misjudged the quality of the talent needed to replace those who were lost in free agency.
I'm hopeful that this front office is being humbled a bit by the team's record and the part they have played in the team's performance.
The performance of the personnel on this roster, is a direct reflection upon the front offices' ability to judge football talent, in free agency and the draft.
I believe the performance of the Browns is exposing the weak link in the franchise. The front office's top two decision makers now have just under 3/4 of a year of experience, judging football talent and their team has not won a game.
The Browns have the most inexperienced front office in the entire NFL. Unless those in charge do something to correct the problem of inexperience by those at the top, I see little chance for improvement in the future.
Looks like The Harvard Boys found an apologist writer, willing to write up a bunch of crap and excuses for all the mistakes and misjudgments they have made.
AND, Browns fans are just too dumb to realize ALL THAT HAS HAPPENED during the 2016 season, is just part of "THE PLAN", the Harvard Boys came up with...you believe that, don't you?
The Boys are starting to run for cover, falling back on the excuse that they planned all this, rather than admitting that they made some terrible misjudgments.
It is the fans fault for not understanding THE PLAN, that these super smart Harvard educated, front office "elites", came up with.
The only thing The Boys have proven to me is, they know how to screw a football team up..how to take a bad team and make it the worst team in the NFL...but they have no clue how to fix what they screwed up.
This idea that this was all part of their plan...TOTAL BS!
In the very beginning we were told this was going to be a total rebuild. You may not like some of the move, I may not like some of the moves, but the building really hasn't started yet.
Nobody wants to be 0-16, but 4-12 really isn't all that much better. We have been stuck on 4-5 wins for nearly 20 years now, going through one football guy after another.
As the article says, if you simply don't believe the plan can work, there really isn't much else for you to say. You said the same things 3000 times. OK....cool, you don't think it can work.
The record at this time isn't a result of the plan. The results have yet to be seen. What we are seeing is a part of the process.
Marla Ridenour: Sashi Brown’s refusal to admit quarterback mistakes in 2016 draft doesn’t bode well for Browns’ future
By Marla Ridenour Beacon Journal sports columnist November 15, 2016 - 09:42 AM link
BEREA: If he had to do it all over again, Sashi Brown would still trade the No. 2 pick instead of drafting quarterback Carson Wentz.
Even with the Philadelphia Eagles’ Wentz having won five more games than Brown’s Browns. Even with an 0-10 record staring the executive vice president of football operations in the face.
I walked into a glass-enclosed conference room in Berea on Monday hoping Brown would give me reason to have more faith in those heading the most important draft of the expansion era, and arguably in franchise history, next April.
I walked out exasperated that even with Wentz and Ezekiel Elliott and Dak Prescott taking the NFL by storm, nothing will change in the “systems and processes” the Browns use to evaluate prospects.
I walked out wondering how Brown can be so confident that among the Browns’ 19 rookies, 12 of them draft picks, is a core of young talent to build around when at the moment Corey Coleman looks like the lone game-changer.
I guess I wanted emotion from Brown. I wanted evidence that he feels the fans’ pain and embarrassment. There was plenty of angst from the questioners, many of them Northeast Ohio natives. The best example came 27 minutes into the 37-minute session.
“Do you guys acknowledge that Wentz and Prescott are the real deal and you blew it? Are you still thinking you’re right on this?” one media member asked.
It was the question that those who buy tickets as the franchise continues to flounder wanted to pose and came with the incredulity they share.
Brown responded: “I wouldn’t look at it as a Prescott and Wentz decision. What we did was go out and draft Cody [Kessler] and bring in a number of players and position ourselves for the next draft. We’re pleased with the decision we made and we stand by those.”
As much as I’d like it to, that inspires little hope. Especially with pro-style pocket passers dwindling by the year, the draft filled with read-option quarterbacks who may be forced to switch positions in the pros.
Even though USC product Kessler was taken in the third round, the Cowboys’ Prescott from Mississippi State in the fourth and the Browns still searching for a franchise quarterback, Brown oozed optimism. He didn’t show the weight of the team’s 0-10 record.
Asked in the Browns’ collaborative front-office effort how responsible he feels for that, he said: “I think we all bear responsibility for that, a tremendous amount. We all inherit a roster or what have you, but we’re not into excuse-making. So we own that. That’s our record.” (The inheriting a roster comment sounded like a sly reminder that former General Manager Ray Farmer got the Browns into this mess.)
Speaking in front of television cameras later, Brown explained why he can’t slip into ‘Woe is me’ mode like the team’s fan base.
“I wish we had a magic wand that we could wave and change our fate, but you can’t do that,” Brown said. “The most important thing about my job is not to take those short cuts and to put this franchise on the path towards sustaining winning for a long period of time. I can’t get caught up in my personal emotions because when you do that, I think you end up making those short emotional decisions.”
Perhaps in keeping an even keel, Brown is that “strong, credible leader” owner Jimmy Haslam has long been seeking. Perhaps the system the Browns are using to rebuild will work. Brown said coach Hue Jackson’s job is safe, which would be a major step toward continuity. (Of course, that’s not Brown’s decision to make, especially if the Haslams go looking for 0-16 scapegoats.)
I see a rookie quarterback who can’t throw deep, a third-round offensive lineman that can’t get on the field despite a rash of injuries, receivers chosen in the fourth and fifth rounds who have contributed virtually nothing. I see no pass rush, a secondary in a shambles, 13 players on injury lists and an offensive line that needed more attention in the 2016 draft and free agency.
The plan Brown laid out — change the culture, develop a core of young talent, maintain continuity — sounded solid. But with Dak and Zeke and Wentz the talk of the league, the second point looks like it will continue to be the stumbling block.
There is nothing for Sashi to admit...at least not yet anyway. Maybe we need to see what else we do with the players we will get instead of Wentz. There will be several and a few in the early parts of the draft. Wentz could be Big Ben or Blake Bortles...Kessler could be Colt McCoy or Drew Brees...no one knows yet. No one.
The title to her article is like asking someone: "Do you still beat your dog?"
I am getting a good laugh out of people who are so shocked at where we are...I thought we'd win two games...winning zero or one won't change what I expected from the start of the year.
I'm surprised at only two things:
#1) The number of injuries we have had;
#2) Pryor is waaaaaaaay better than I thought he'd be and he is still learning the position.
Nothing else is a surprise to me...nothing else makes me more/less of a denier or believer in/of the process.
I'd rather be 0-16 with a bunch of young guys, a ton of cap space and a bunch of draft picks in my future, than 5-11 with a bunch of old guys who have peaked or worse.
It's going to take time...that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. It may or may not work, no one knows at this point. It's not that hard.
after reading the ridenauer column i think one theory has at least some credibility. we hired a head coach who has a reputation as a "quarterback guru", a "quarterback whisperer". it defies all logic and common sense that we would do that, have that coach in the draft room say he wanted to build his team around wentz and have the guys who hired him who have minimal experience with player selection tell that coach to stuff his choice where the sun don't shine. if that coach in round three says this Prescott kid is the qb he wants to build his team around, no way they tell him sorry but we like Kessler from usc.
Both of those scenarios make no sense. You may not like their inexperience but they are not stupid people and that would be stupid. Therefore, I think it makes perfect sense that Hue made our qb decision in the draft. If so it is reasonable to believe the response in the article is based upon an unwillingness to lay it all at our coach's feet.
Now I was not in the war room and cannot say with absolute certainty how it went down but neither can anyone else. Despite the certainty some people attribute the draft decisions to the "Harvard Boys", none of them know that their scenario took place either.
ballpeen, i think that intuitively that makes complete sense. the theory that the "Harvard Boys" overruled our new coach on his quarterback choice requires one to twist logic into a pretzel.
I walked into a glass-enclosed conference room in Berea on Monday hoping Brown would give me reason to have more faith in those heading the most important draft of the expansion era, and arguably in franchise history, next April.
I walked out exasperated that even with Wentz and Ezekiel Elliott and Dak Prescott taking the NFL by storm, nothing will change in the “systems and processes” the Browns use to evaluate prospects.
I walked out wondering how Brown can be so confident that among the Browns’ 19 rookies, 12 of them draft picks, is a core of young talent to build around when at the moment Corey Coleman looks like the lone game-changer.
I guess I wanted emotion from Brown. I wanted evidence that he feels the fans’ pain and embarrassment. There was plenty of angst from the questioners, many of them Northeast Ohio natives. The best example came 27 minutes into the 37-minute session.
So, did she expect him to say "we blew it, our draft picks stink, and dang, we messed up by not taking Dak or Wentz"? We have a roster full of rookies, a struggling QB who is in concussion protocol, and a new HC trying to keep a positive locker room.
Without getting into a FO stinks 'discussions, she ends with this
Quote:
The plan Brown laid out — change the culture, develop a core of young talent, maintain continuity — sounded solid. But with Dak and Zeke and Wentz the talk of the league, the second point looks like it will continue to be the stumbling block.
The second point she makes in that statement is "develop a core of young talent" ...does not development take time? I don't have the stats but how many of the great QB's sat and learned and developed over time and had rough patches and years?
Change the culture...I'm thinking the plan was to go young and hungry. If you say culture culture change precedes development, that means attitude before results, but how do you do that? If wins changes cultures, then so does losing so it would seem to reason that culture change needs to happen outside of wins and losses? maybe?
I read a somewhere where it takes 4 games for a DC to have enough tape to effectively gameplay against a QB...I think that may be why Went's numbers are down (if they are?). It looks like Dak is a rare but then what I read is with that line and a running game, he has the best chance to succeed right away.
Anyway, I get all the woes and heaping on the Browns' - we have earned it for sure. But still ....
ballpeen, i think that intuitively that makes complete sense. the theory that the "Harvard Boys" overruled our new coach on his quarterback choice requires one to twist logic into a pretzel.
Welcome to the board. Soon enough you will notice we have some pretzel makers around here.
Brown responded: “I wouldn’t look at it as a Prescott and Wentz decision. What we did was go out and draft Cody [Kessler] and bring in a number of players and position ourselves for the next draft. We’re pleased with the decision we made and we stand by those.”
He is beginning to sound like his arrogance is proving to translate to ignorance.
I think it's going to work because of what I am noticing from the team.
First, overall I liked who we drafted. I wasn't huge on Kessler, but I have to admit that he looks better than I thought he would ever look in his first year. I still don't think he is the answer, but maybe Hue will prove me wrong. The guy that wasn't supposed to touch the ball this year at all has already made a good case at being a back-up QB in the future. Coleman is a keeper and we'll notice that more in the next couple of weeks when there is a QB throwing to him that can take advantage of his speed. I think Ogbah is a keeper as well and will continue to improve. I think Pryor shocked everyone on how quickly that he converted a real threat at WR. And I think everyone was shocked that we were able to get Jamie Collins for peanuts.
We stripped the team down to bare bones and perhaps we went a little farther than I thought that we would, but because we did that, a lot of what should be our depth in the future got some valuable playing time and experience.
Haslam seems to be supporting both the FO and the Head Coach despite the fact that we are in Cleveland and fans and media are usually for someone's head by week four and this year is no exception. This is crucial because blowing it up and starting over is something that we normally do way too early.
We have four new pieces to build with that are young and promising.
I would make the trade of Karlos Dansby for Jamie Collins heads up any day and be happy.
I would have traded any of our WR's last year for Pryor or Coleman this year and be happy.
I would have traded Kruger for Ogbah heads up and be happy.
There are more picks in this draft that we are going to hit on later as well. Every rookie has his own pace. I am expecting at least two more out of this last draft to be keepers as well and maybe 3 or 4.
That will put us around at least 6 players acquired in one year that will have a positive impact on the team.
We also have two drafts worth of picks in the upcoming draft and most likely the first overall pick. If we can manage 6 more guys that improve the team in that draft, that is replacing half of your starters in two years.
We should also be able to sign some FA's this year because we shouldn't be worried about losing comp picks. I don't expect us to go nuts and sign any huge contracts, but I do expect us to sign some younger guys that will help the team.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but right up until the NE game when teams figured out Cody and the injury to Bitonio, this offense looked pretty powerful with a bunch of rookies and rotating chairs every week at both QB and o-line. Sign me up to see what Hue can do with this offense once he gets more pieces in place.
Everyone knew this was going to be painful transition to start and most predictions before the season started were 0, 1, or 2 wins. It's only when everyone has to go through the pain that they knew they were going to have to go through ahead of time, that they suddenly forget that we knew this is going to happen.
If between the first two rounds of the draft and FA we wind up with a combination of the following:
RT, QB, EDGE, FS, CB
then this will be a drastically improved team.
While the upcoming draft does not appear deep at QB, it does appear to be deep at the other four positions. I am not expecting Super Bowl next year so if we don't find the QB, but do find the other spots, I'll be happy. We will eventually find a hit at QB and if the team is already built around him before he gets here, then even better for him.
Just my long rambling two cents but in my opinion more productive than calling for the pitchforks in the middle of year one in a rebuild.
I think a big key is how closely we stick to building through the draft, or rather, ignore free agency.
No doubt I believe in building through the draft. That said, I don't think you can scrap the idea of signing a few plug and play veterans. Trading for the first crack at Collins was a good first step. It at least shows we are willing to go beyond the bounds of the draft. Now we just have to sign him. Even if we can't, we threw the dice, showing we aren't simply going to wait on all rookies to grow up.
A couple of key signings will make a big difference. It will narrow the focus of the draft. It's far easier to make correct decisions and just draft good players rather than having to draft a position because you need people at the position. We saw that last year. We had no idea that Pryor would play as well as he has, so we drafted Coleman. Coleman was a good pick. The problem is we still had question marks and ended up 3 more receivers which was a waste of resources IMO, but I understand why we did it.
My hope is we sign a decent plug and play O-lineman. Then there will be less pressure to draft several O linemen in the draft. I'd still like to see one draft in round 2, possibly round 1, depending how the draft falls and who falls to that Eagles pick. I just don't want to see us have to draft another 2-3 between rounds 3-5. This is a deep draft for secondary help. We can find secondary help in those rounds.
This next draft is possibly the most critical draft in Browns history. We embarked on this plan, and now have a ton of high picks. Say 7 picks. We have to make those picks count. We are in real trouble if we continue to bring in guys named Cam or Mingo. Of those 7 picks, we need 5 of them to turn in to really good players. If that happens, this journey might continue. If not, it will be back to the drawing board in 2-3 years.
Brown responded: “I wouldn’t look at it as a Prescott and Wentz decision. What we did was go out and draft Cody [Kessler] and bring in a number of players and position ourselves for the next draft. We’re pleased with the decision we made and we stand by those.”
He is beginning to sound like his arrogance is proving to translate to ignorance.
vers...Obviously, the Browns front office is not going to talk about their glaring mistakes and misjudgments...to pass on two potential franchise QBs in the draft in favor of their drafting of an undersized, weak armed, career backup who was projected as the 10th to 15th best QB in the draft.
To admit to their misjudgments would require an individual who places a high value on their own integrity and honesty..someone who places a high value on telling the truth. I do not see those qualities being exhibited by this front office...Depodesta, Sashi and the Haslams.
It is at times like these that you find out what kind of people are running the show, here in Cleveland.
Brown responded: “I wouldn’t look at it as a Prescott and Wentz decision. What we did was go out and draft Cody [Kessler] and bring in a number of players and position ourselves for the next draft. We’re pleased with the decision we made and we stand by those.”
He is beginning to sound like his arrogance is proving to translate to ignorance.
vers...Obviously, the Browns front office is not going to talk about their glaring mistakes and misjudgments...to pass on two potential franchise QBs in the draft in favor of their drafting of an undersized, weak armed, career backup who was projected as the 10th to 15th best QB in the draft.
To admit to their misjudgments would require [color:#33CC00]an individual who places a high value on their own integrity and honesty..someone who places a high value on telling the truth. I do not see those qualities being exhibited by this front office...Depodesta, Sashi and the Haslams.
It is at times like these that you find out what kind of people are running the show, here in Cleveland. [/color]
Not content to merely challenge their football knowledge, now you have to resort to character assassination?
Hot...you might be right...why would anyone expect an honest answer from those running this franchise. It's much easier for some fans to choke down the lies and say "oh well".
it is too bad that you surround some perfectly valid criticisms with perfectly ridiculous statements. we had no shot at goff. and I do not know anyone who thought Prescott was a franchise quarterback. if they did he would have gone way, way before round 4. to suggest that he was considered a franchise quarterback is just plain not true. Monday morning quarterbacking is just so danged easy.
this was not a reply to vambo, it is too Mac. rookie mistake.
Not content to merely challenge their football knowledge, now you have to resort to character assassination?
Four recent posts were all about assassinating mac's character, but not a peep out of you.
There are a lot of good people on this board and it's like therapy, but there are a handful that ruin the board. Their constant personal attacks make the board worse. Yet, people just let them slide.
Slam mac for his opinions on the FO, but let these handful of guys continue to slam mac and a couple of other posters.
not sure what your definition of "recent" is, but i looked back thru this page and could not find any character assassinating going on. lots of disagreeing but no assassinating.
Not content to merely challenge their football knowledge, now you have to resort to character assassination?
Four recent posts were all about assassinating mac's character, but not a peep out of you.
There are a lot of good people on this board and it's like therapy, but there are a handful that ruin the board. Their constant personal attacks make the board worse. Yet, people just let them slide.
Slam mac for his opinions on the FO, but let these handful of guys continue to slam mac and a couple of other posters.
I expect that you are sufficiently intelligent to differentiate between an attack on a person's character versus a person's opinion/posts. Please point out the four to me as I am too ill at the moment to be bothered...
At least one was deleted by the mods, if that tells you anything. Calling someone a liar is also a character attack. And then having another person ask the same question again is the same thing.
I had a long post that laid that experience out for you and you ignored it because it doesn't fit what you are selling everyone.
dep...that would be the post where you attempted to lump the experience of scouts in with the front office/Hararvd Boys...
The only thing I'm selling is the truth...the Browns franchise is being run by the most inexperienced front office in the NFL..and it shows with the 0-11 record.
No and I don't know where you're getting that from. We're saying the VP of Player Personnel and the scouts do have experience. Mac is saying the FO has no experience because he simply includes two people under the definition of what the front office is, and it is those two people who are evaluating players. Myself, and a few others, are saying, fundamentally, that is incorrect.
Experience exists in this FO because this FO includes scouts, newly ones brought on as well as some that have been with the Browns for years. But that doesn't automatically mean that is a good thing either.
Now, if you want to amend your previous pages of posts to say that the lack of experience is simply because you think DePodesta and Sashi are calling ALL the shots when drafting college players or deciding on NFL free agents, then the debate can progress from there and we can narrow the discussion points. But the "Front Office" has plenty of people with experience in scouting and evaluating players.
No and I don't know where you're getting that from. We're saying the VP of Player Personnel and the scouts do have experience. Mac is saying the FO has no experience because he simply includes two people under the definition of what the front office is, and it is those two people who are evaluating players. Myself, and a few others, are saying, fundamentally, that is incorrect.
Experience exists in this FO because this FO includes scouts, newly ones brought on as well as some that have been with the Browns for years. But that doesn't automatically mean that is a good thing either.
I mentioned it because it seems people are getting on mac a lot because he said our FO lacks experience and earlier, many of you said that Sashi couldn't be blamed for earlier transgressions because he was not in charge and he had to do what Farmer wanted. It seems a bit odd that it works one way one time and another in the next situation.
Personally, I am not going to make a big deal about the experience the FO has, but I think it is pretty hard to deny that the top guys do indeed lack experience. That may---or may not--turn out to be a factor.
No and I don't know where you're getting that from. We're saying the VP of Player Personnel and the scouts do have experience. Mac is saying the FO has no experience because he simply includes two people under the definition of what the front office is, and it is those two people who are evaluating players. Myself, and a few others, are saying, fundamentally, that is incorrect.
Experience exists in this FO because this FO includes scouts, newly ones brought on as well as some that have been with the Browns for years. But that doesn't automatically mean that is a good thing either.
I mentioned it because it seems people are getting on mac a lot because he said our FO lacks experience and earlier, many of you said that Sashi couldn't be blamed for earlier transgressions because he was not in charge and he had to do what Farmer wanted. It seems a bit odd that it works one way one time and another in the next situation.
Personally, I am not going to make a big deal about the experience the FO has, but I think it is pretty hard to deny that the top guys do indeed lack experience. That may---or may not--turn out to be a factor.
People are getting on mac for several things, but as it pertains to my recent comments to him, it's specifically about what he deems the FO to be, and how he justifies using the term "experience" as it relates to the FO.
If he thinks Sashi and DePo are calling all the shots and only deferring to analytics and those what two want to do, then yes, lack of experience in selecting players would be an issue. I don't think that is the case. We actually have a robust scouting department, with experience (not that different from other past regimes), that is a piece of our entire FO. Again, experience in our FO, which we do have, doesn't ultimately mean we'll be successful. But I don't believe Sashi and DePo are calling all the shots. I think Sashi has the final say if there is a stalemate with a player(s). I think DePo's charged with using his past analytics background to hone in on certain stats, predictors, etc....But I think the top tier pool of players the FO likes will come from scouting, being managed by Andrew Berry. I think there are many pieces to determining what players they like, however, if a tie breaker is needed for a lack of a better term, that person is Sashi Brown.
Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' salary cap, quarterbacks, big decisions -- Terry Pluto
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Cleveland Browns have $50 million in salary cap space, the most of any NFL team.
Some fans are very upset the Browns didn't spend more money to try and avoid this disastrous season. You can make a case they should have kept Mitchell Schwartz, who was open to staying.
But throwing money at aging free agents such as Tramon Williams, Donte Whitner, Karlos Dansby and others over the last few years has done little to change the course of the franchise.
If you want to focus purely on this season and the record, the new front office took a 3-13 team and now have it at 0-11. So what about the $50 million in salary cap space that expands to $64 million in 2017?
Fans are right, it's time to spend -- but not on big names from other teams. Browns vice president Sashi Brown has mentioned the desire to "retain" core players.
The credibility of this front office is on the line when it comes to this off-season, and not just with the draft. Also with how it handles the salary cap. A Harvard lawyer, Brown has cap experience.
Frustrated with the problems and all the changes on the offensive line, veteran tackle Joe Thomas said this after Sunday 24-9 loss to Pittsburgh:
"We lost a couple really good players. I think the best at their position. But that was our strategy in the off-season ... You've got to lie in the bed that you've made, and I don't make the decisions on who comes and goes. So that's not something that I can concern myself with."
But it is a concern. Thomas has two more years left on his contract. The last thing the Browns need is for him to become so discouraged that he wants to be traded. Then they will need a left tackle, along with all the other holes in the line.
Rather than stare in the rear view mirror, let's look ahead in terms of keeping key players.
As soon as the season ends -- if not sooner in some cases -- it's time to begin. Here's the start of a game plan:
1. If Jamie Collins and Terrelle Pryor were in this draft, they would be top 10 picks. Both are 27, about the right age for a contract extension. The Browns traded for Collins, and signed Pryor after he was cut by several teams. Both will be unrestricted free agents.
2. Pryor is represented by Drew Rosenhaus. He'll make the Browns pay, if they want to keep him. The Browns did cut a huge deal with Rosenhaus for Joe Haden in the spring of 2014.
3. Veteran agent Bus Cook represents Collins. Cook has been in the business a long time, dating back to Brett Favre. He represents Cam Newton, Jadeveon Clowney, Mo Claiborne and many other first-round selections during the last few years.
4. The Browns have a challenge. It make sense to try and sign both players before free agency opens in March. But it also makes sense for the agents to see what the market says about their players.
5. The Browns should fear losing Pryor and Collins if they allow them to remain unsigned close to the free agent signing period. I would make strong offers to both very soon.
6. Chris Kirksey and Joel Bitonio won't be free agents until after the 2017 season. But they are eligible to sign contract extensions after this season. Both are above average players and should be signed. Keep them away from free agency.
7. There are some concerns because Bitonio suffered a major foot injury and played only five games this season. He missed six games in 2015 with an ankle injury. He played all 16 games in 2014.
8. So Bitonio is somewhat of a health-risk, but he's a very good player. I want him on the roster. Depth on the offensive line. Kirksey is rated above average as an inside linebacker by Profootballfocus.com.
9. Isaiah Crowell is a restricted free agent. He has shown enough to stick around, and the Browns should make that happen -- assuming his price is reasonable.
10. John Greco, 31, is signed through the 2017 season. Greco is important to the line because of his versatility. Offensive lineman can play reasonably well into their middle 30s. I would offer him a short extension. The same for Austin Pastzor, who is OK as a tackle if you have a decent line. If nothing else, he also supplies depth.
11. Next season, the Browns will have two first-round picks and two second-round picks. They probably will have five picks in the top 65. They need to save some cap room to sign those guys.
12. If the Browns can retain Pryor and Collins, that will take a healthy chunk out of the salary cap room. Part of the reason for keeping cap space open in 2016 was for the new front office to evaluate players and then spend to keep them.
13. Beaten-down fans will look at last season and correctly mention the Browns didn't retain much of anyone. Alex Mack, Tashaun Gipson, Travis Benjamin, Craig Robertson and Schwartz all signed elsewhere.
14. A problem was the previous front office allowed all of them to head into their final contract seasons with free agency looming. When you are a losing team such as the Browns, you invite a mass exit with that strategy.
15. It's imperative that this front office target the young players they like and sign them to extensions early. I wrote about how the failure to do this with Mack after the 2011 season led to many of the problems on the offensive line.
ABOUT ROBERT GRIFFIN III AND JOE CALLAHAN
Confession time: Last weekend, I wrote that I had no real interest in seeing Griffin play this season. Then Kessler suffered his second concussion in 29 days in last week's loss to Pittsburgh.
As Game 12 of the season looms, when it comes to Browns quarterbacks -- I surrender. I don't know who should play.
I don't know what to think about Kessler, other than his lack of durability is alarming. He has started eight games, and not stayed healthy enough to even make it through three of those starts.
I don't know what to say about Josh McCown, other than he's a classy 37-year-old veteran who has taken a horrible physical beating in his two years with the Browns.
What about Joe Callahan? Who?
Callahan is on the roster, along with Griffin, McCown, Kessler and rookie Kevin Hogan. You'll need all five fingers to count all the Browns quarterbacks.
I forgot about Callahan until receiving this email from John Berezo:
"The fact that Callahan is still on the roster ... should tell you something. I would not be surprised if Kessler is shut down for the year, Griffin is activated and Callahan remains on the roster so they can take him into next year. Read things the Packers' media was saying about him. They LOVED him and HATED losing him. He is Kessler's size but has a much bigger arm."
OK, I can't believe I'm discussing Joe Callahan -- but why not? Charlie Whitehurst actually played a few quarters this season. So did Kevin Hogan.
At Division III Wesley College, Callahan was the Gagliardi Player of the Year in 2015. He was signed as a non-drafted free agent by Green Bay, completing 54 of 88 passes (64 percent) with three TDs and zero interceptions in the preseason. He played in the preseason against the Browns. I didn't see the strong arm that Berezo mentioned.
Anyway, he was cut by Packers, signed by the Saints. He was cut by the Saints, signed by the Browns. He has been on the 53-man roster.
With five games left and the way Browns quarterbacks keep getting hurt, we could see Joe Callahan. The Browns have already used five quarterbacks, why not six?
(1) Pryor-- It's a good thing we have crappy QB play at the moment because I think that keeps him more affordable. I'd give him contract security and a promise (yeah, I know how much those are worth in the NFL, let alone Cleveland) that Hue has at least two more years after this year.
(2) Collins-- Well, I guess you can easily franchise tag him, right? You'll pay a few extra million but he's clearly shown (at least to me anyway) that he can be a difference maker. Plus, maybe one more year here can convince him to stay, because this year, devotes the opposite approach. If he's strictly business...then he'll take a large contract from Cleveland regardless. He'll eventually get it somewhere.
I also agree with the mindset of signing Bitonio and Kirksey to deals because (1) they're worth it, and (2) it makes sense if you can front load the deal w/ guaranteed money in the early years in the hopes of freeing up cash later if hopefully **fingers crossed** you are in a position to retain future players drafted.
I'm very curious to see just how much Pryor wants to play for Hue and play here ...
Will he give a "hometown" discount or even stay here for the "same" offer from someone else ...
Pryor is a physical freak but he is still learning how to play WR .. his route running leaves a lot to be desired and thats being nice ...
I'm not saying we shouldn't re-sign him ... just wonder how much were going to overpay a WR thats a novice at his trade ...
I expect Collins will need a few truckloads of money to stay here ... i can only imagine what he thinks about C-Town when the only other org. He's known is NE ...
Both these guys will be way overpaid .. that's built in to FA ..
Will be interesting to see how this develops ...
Pluto makes it seem easy to sign these guys now .. we will have to overpay even more than the FA market will dictate if we expect them to sign w/o testing the waters ...
Like i said .. i'm very curious to see how this plays out ...
Pryor has been very complimentary of Hue in press conferences. However, it's simply that, a press conference.... but, if Pryor is smart, he should continue to do so. That's his boss. That's who can dictate whether he stays employed or not. With all that being said, this staff has been the only staff to get his NFL worth out of him. I feel like that has to mean something to Pryor. Furthermore, I think Pryor knows he was on his last shot to make significant money in the NFL when he signed on with the Browns. If I were him, business-wise, and had a general feeling most things would be kept in tact offensively (essentially Hue) I'd re-sign here.
be interesting to see if Cincinnati goes after Pryor to just take him away from us...it is in the best interest of the North to pull our good players out so I could see him leaving to go there...especially with their O-woes this year...
I think with them saying that Pryor is the only player they won't trade, come hell or high water they resign him...and they should along with Collins. at the very least
Pryor spoke about the potential of re-signing with the Browns this offseason despite the 0-11 start to the season, courtesy of Scott Petrak of the Chronicle-Telegram:
I don’t believe in taking easy roads and going to teams just because a team’s great, just because I want to win. I’d rather start how we are and build an empire, a top gun franchise. I believe in that. I believe in battling. I don’t believe in taking the easy way out in anything.
So whatever happens in free agency when that comes up, I’d love to be here. I love playing for Hue, I love playing for the Haslams. They’re great owners. It’s one of the best facilities and they want to win.
Pryor previously told reporters on Oct. 20 that he would like to stay in Cleveland so long as Hue Jackson is serving as the team's head coach, per Cleveland.com's Mary Kay Cabot:
I respect him very highly and if Hue Jackson's here, I'd love to stay here. I want to be here if Hue's going to be here for a while, because I know this is a building process — and it's not really. We're right there. We're competing with everybody, we've just got to put teams away and I'd like to be where Hue's at.
I believe him, at least until his agent gets our offer and another team is offering 3 mil more.
As much as I don't like to say it, at this point it would be stuipd for either guy to sign anything unless the Browns offer a blockbuster deal. Their agents aren't stupid people. The have a pretty good idea where the market sits. Neither one of those guys has been around Cleveland to be offering hometeam discounts unless the wife or kids have become grounded to Cleveland, and I don't see how that is possible at this point.
We might get them signed early, but it won't be at a discount because they are swell guys and know the fans want them signed.
They are looking for a payday.....Show Me the Money.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I kinda wonder if either Collins or Pryor would want to stay here. It seems to me that good players would want to win. If they stay, we either have to overpay or they believe in what the Browns are doing.
I also think that trying to get early deals done w/guys like Greco, Bitonio, and Kirksey would be smart. We'll see what happens.
I believe him, at least until his agent gets our offer and another team is offering 3 mil more.
As much as I don't like to say it, at this point it would be stuipd for either guy to sign anything unless the Browns offer a blockbuster deal. Their agents aren't stupid people. The have a pretty good idea where the market sits. Neither one of those guys has been around Cleveland to be offering hometeam discounts unless the wife or kids have become grounded to Cleveland, and I don't see how that is possible at this point.
We might get them signed early, but it won't be at a discount because they are swell guys and know the fans want them signed.
They are looking for a payday.....Show Me the Money.
Especially when your agent's Drew .. players choose him for a reason ... and its not because there looking to do anyone but their checkbook a favor ...
Will be interesting to see how this pans out ....
Still not sure why everyone wants to give Pryor a boatload of money ... hes a physical specimen not a great WR ... he leaves alot to be desired when it comes to a route runner ...
Will say one thing .. he works his ass off and is a gamer ... there's no question there .. i don't think he's going to be one of those guys that gets paid and then gets lazy ...
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There are none closer than that.
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