Terrelle Pryor's extension unlikely to come by season's end, Isaiah Crowell still aiming for 1,000 and more

cleveland.com

BEREA, Ohio -- The Browns are unlikely to reach an agreement with Terrelle Pryor on a contract extension before the end of the season, a league source told cleveland.com.

They've had talks with Pryor's agents, Drew and Jason Rosenhaus, and some have even taken place here in Cleveland. But with only three games left, it's unlikely to happen until after the season.

If they can't reach an agreement by the start of the new league year on March 9, the Browns can always franchise Pryor and buy themselves more time. The franchise number for receivers in 2016 was almost $15 million, and that number will climb to almost $16 million by March.

The Browns are also looking to extend linebacker Jamie Collins, acquired in a trade with the Patriots for a third-round compensatory pick.

Pryor has three games left to reach the coveted 1,000-yard milestone and needs 142 yards to get there, about 43 a game. During Sunday's 23-10 loss to the Bengals, he was limited to one catch for three yards, which dropped him from No. 11 in the NFL in receiving yards to No. 22 with 858.

With Robert Griffin III back under center, Pryor was targeted only three times, including an ill-advised flea-flicker out of the end zone that Griffin fired into triple coverage and had intercepted. Meanwhile, first-rounder Corey Coleman was targeted 11 times, and caught only three for 26 yards.

It was Pryor's lowest output of the season by far, and came on games of 97 and 131 yards.

Afterward, Jackson lamented not getting the ball more to Pryor.

"We want to get him involved,'' said Jackson. "You have to remember the other team is trying to take him away. We have to find more ways."

Pryor, who was upset after the game by his lack of production, admitted it was frustrating.

"There were a lot of times the Bengals had three or four guys on me and Rob goes through his progressions," he said. "Some plays weren't really plays for me. ... We missed some key blocks to break open (Isaiah Crowell), myself not staying on a couple of blocks. He could've broke through on a touchdown and I was punching myself in the head over that.''

He acknowledged "not every game's going to be geared towards me having a great game, and I understand that and I know I can't control where the ball goes. ... After watching the game all's I could come up with is I've got to be better. When I don't have the ball in my hand, I've got to play better. It's simple.''

With Griffin and Coleman unable to connect, the Bengals doubled and tripled Pryor.

"When Coach Hue saw they had a lot of people coming over toward me and stuff like that, he switched play calls to other guys,'' said Pryor. "And it makes sense. He's one hell of a coach and he knows what he's doing.

"Maybe we can be better this week. Maybe we won't. You never know. For me, I have to keep fighting that thing on my shoulder that every time I'm not going to touch the ball. I have to keep on playing without the ball to help my teammates be better.''

It won't be easier this week. The Bills are fifth in the NFL with 33 sacks and seventh with only 229.6 passing yards allowed per game.

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2. Isaiah Crowell still aiming for 1,000

Crowell is coming off a 113-yard game against the Bengals and needs 282 to reach 1,000 yards. After the first four weeks he was on pace for far more than that, but then the running game stalled. In the past nine games, he's rushed for 29 yards or fewer on six occasions. In four games, he didn't reach double digits in carries.

Last week, he carried the ball only 10 times despite big chunk plays of 30 and 42 yards that led to both scores.

"I wish I had more opportunities just because when the running game finally started to pick up I feel like I didn't have enough opportunities to help my team as much as I could have,'' he said. "The lanes were there so I feel like we should take advantage of them but we didn't, so we gotta live with what the coaches want to do."

But Crowell still feels he can get to 1,000 if the Browns commit to the run, something Jackson intended to do this season.

"I feel like if it was how it was last week, I feel like it's capable [of happening],'' he said. "I still think it's in reach."

Crowell hasn't reached 20 carries in a game this season, and eclipsed 15 only twice. Both times, he surpassed 100 yards.

If the Browns stick with it Sunday in Buffalo, the Crow just might fly. The Bills are 28th against the run with 125.8 per game.

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3. Twin Lisfrancs

Joel Bitonio still can't believe fellow guard John Greco underwent Lisfranc surgery on his right foot. Bitonio had his right foot operation in October, and Greco's was this week -- both with Dr. Robert Anderson in North Carolina.

Both starting guards with the almost identical Lisfranc midfoot injury.

"I saw them working on his foot and I thought 'gosh, this is deja vu all over again,''' Bitonio said. "I feel like that's pretty unlucky the way it happened, two starting guards with the same foot injury.''

He talked to Greco and everything went well.

"He's in good spirits right now,'' said Bitonio. "It's kind of a wait and see recovery. I've heard it could be up to a year, but it's kind of like an ACL. It just depends on the severity and how you go about it. The longer you stay off of it in the beginning, the quicker you can come back.''

If the linemen heal quickly, the Browns could be in good shape next year. In addition to the two guards, center Austin Reiter will be back from his torn ACL.

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4. From Super Bowl contender to winless in Cleveland

Rookie running back Darius Jackson, claimed off waivers Wednesday from the 11-2 Cowboys, will take playing over a shot at the Super Bowl any old day. In Dallas, he was inactive all 13 games while Zeke Elliott was tearing it up.

"I came here for a reason, to help build the team and we're all in it together,'' he said. "We're all going to try and get a win this season."

A sixth-round pick of the Cowboys out of Eastern Michigan, Jackson was told about a dozen teams put a claim in for him.

"It means a lot,'' he said. "It shows that a lot of teams were interested in me and believed in me and that's all I needed."

Jackson, who can help on special teams, rushed for 16 touchdowns last year at EMU.

"Sitting for 13 straight games, I was a part of something special but obviously I was geeked to get on the field so if I get that opportunity I'm going to be beyond excited,'' he said.

Pryor would be stupid to sign an extension at this point. He should force the team to use the franchise tag.

We are going to lose Pryor or Collins.

I'm not worried about Pryor leaving. Collins is a different story.

We should have gotten Pryor's extension done a long time ago, that would have allowed us to franchise Collins. Now, if Pryor and his agents are smart, Pryor will have to be franchised, meaning Collins will be gone.

Pryor hasn't been doing himself any favors lately. Franchise tag Pryor? That's hysterical.

Right now he's the tallest midget. He has some talent, definitely a "me" first guy...and that ego can be ok given the right situation.

I expect the Browns to put Pryor on the back burner at this point in time. Oddly, I was down on Collins early on, but his steady has been noticeable.

Why is extending Pryor out of the equation? You're not making any sense unless you're being pessimistic.

Pryor is going to have close to 1,000 yards receiving in his first real year at receiver with the craptastic combo of RGIII, McCown, and Kessler throwing him the ball. If he makes it to free agency he will make at least as much as the franchise tag.

I don't even understand what he's arguing. Is he saying Pryor won't agree to any contract extension in the offseason?

we need them both..

Pryor is about to crack a 1000 yards receiving, and that's with six different QB's throwing the ball.

Collins' play has gotten better by the week seems like to me..

I would Franchise Collins and with Pryor stating he wants to play for Hue as long as Hue is here...gots me thinking working out a new contract would be easier then trying to hammer out one with Collins.

I undertand cfrs point. On an 0-13 team it would seem Pryor holds the cards from a negotiating standpoint. However, Pryor has not really proven anything that warrants top money. He's the leading the receiver on an 0-13 team. As they'd say on the A to Z podcast, Congrat.

Pryor has flashed talent and ultimately the Browns should work out a favorable deal. The notion of franchise tagging him is absurd, however.

Pryor's year is akin to Barnidge's big year. Somebody has to catch the ball. Take it with a grain of salt.

Any player who is healthy should try and get to free agency. If Pryor were to sign an extension now, he would be doing himself a disservice. Good players make the most money when multiple teams are bidding for them. Tavon Austin got $30 million guaranteed, Pryor would easily get that on the open market.

I'm aware of how free agency works. However, why does any of it mean Pryor won't resign here?

I don't think anyone's saying he wont resign after he finds his market value in FA.

But he can't find his value if he just signs whatever offer we give him right now..

I'm sure his agent has done some not so legal tampering and asked around, but you can't go by the 100%..

As long as we don't offer him a deal, and then snatch it away like an old man with a fishing pole the day after FA starts..

1. We suck

2. Last year we didn't retain any of our good free agents

3. There will be a ton of teams with cap room

1. Lots of teams suck and still keep guys.

2. And? After the disaster this season has been, do you think the FO hasn't learned? Just because a FO does something once, doesn't mean they're going to keep doing it. Do you think they're simply never going to resign good players ever?

3. Your only solid argument.

Pryor will get Tavon Austin money ... around 10-12 million per year IMO.

This is all Joe Banner's fault! Our current FO is blameless.

Why? I fully believe that both he and his agent know what his market value is. If the money/package is acceptable and he truly wants to play here, then why wait...

That's it! Fan the flames...

I pick Collins and trade Pryor.

Why would Pryor be stupid to sign an extension at this point?

If Pryor leaves and Jamal Adams is gone before our second pick, I'd be all for taking Mike Williams with our pick from Philly.

Which is a bummer. We don't have enough good players to let any of them leave.

We should have gotten Pryor's extension done a long time ago, that would have allowed us to franchise Collins. Now, if Pryor and his agents are smart, Pryor will have to be franchised, meaning Collins will be gone.

How so??? You do realize we cut him at the end of training camp. Nobody picked him up, we eventually signed him back to the team. What ensued surprised everyone. GMs are slapping their head cause they all had a crack at him and didn't take the shot. Just when should we have "Pryors extension done a long time ago" What would that be 2 weeks ago? 4 weeks and just how long have we been negotiating with the Rosenhaus' - just cause the article came out now doesn't mean we haven't been dancing for a couple of weeks!

Come on Man!
jmh

Collins is hopefully the priority if it comes to choosing who to franchise.

Does a person make more money when there are multiple entities bidding for their services or one entity offering them a contract?

If he wants to sign an extension to stay with Hue Jackson, then I cannot blame him for signing now. But he could easily go into free agency, see what other teams offer, and then go back to Cleveland if he wants.

Last off-season Marvin Jones got $20 million guaranteed. His career high in receiving yards was 816. Pryor currently has 858 yards.

Pryor should not sign an extension.

(I hope he does.)

I agree with you that it is in Pryor best financial interests to hit the FA. I would be shocked if the Browns used the franchise tag on him, however.

Make Pryor a fair offer now. If he says he wants to test the market, we ask, "do you mean like Mitchell Schwartz?". The precedent has been set.

Shocked? Pryor's annual average salary is going to be something close to the franchise number as it is, why not use the tag to try and retain him?

If Pryor doesn't sign an extension, I would be shocked if we didn't use the franchise tag. This team cannot afford to let anymore talent walk. Can you imagine our offense without Pryor?

"Do you mean like Mitchell Schwartz, the guy who made just as much money as he would have here and is contending for the one seed?"

Great argument.

Boy I don't know..playing for the Browns is such an honor, we have all-pros just lined up for miles waiting to become a member of this great fraternity.

No, Generally not and in the case of Pryor, certainly not. Pryor has expressed an interest in remaining with the Browns, mainly with Hue Jackson.

If we tag him, he'll get between 15 and 16 million for one year. I'm pretty sure he'd get less than that on a long term deal.

So, while on the surface it would seem smart to get himself into a bidding war, he's doesn't have that much to gain. His agent knows his value and the going rates.

Making a deal now makes it an easier off season. So for me, I'd say it would be a GREAT time to do the deal.

Pryor and his agent will have to be careful here. Remember Mitchell Schwartz last year in a similar scenario? IIRC, Schwartz's offer was good only until the FA period opened, at which point the offer was pulled off the table. Perhaps the FO has a policy in this regard...

I think you don't realize that the Browns were the loser in that deal and Schwartz was the winner.

I'll say it, Pryor is worth top 15 WR money for 4 years. Only player who shows fight every Sunday since Josh Cribbs. Granted, Pryor's fight is rather selfish, but it's a start. We have so much cap space that a good contract for a WR and ILB will put a dent into it, but nothing serious. It looks like if RG3 is our QB, we'll just be throwing the deep ball non stop, so we might as well throw it to the 6'5 WR instead of Corey Coleman.

Collins should be top priority ... Love Pryor try to sign him and Collins but if I had to chose who to Franchise it would be Collins ... JMHO

He would probably make less than that on a yearly basis, but he will at least double that in guaranteed money.

It's not like no one will offer him a contract if we "Schwartz" him. Schwartz is the currently the third highest paid right tackle in the league and he plays for a team that doesn't suck.

am i being naive?

why can't we keep both? i don't understand why posters are talking as if we have to choose either Collins or Pryor.

why can't we keep both? we have way more than enough money to do so.

You only get 1 franchise tag, so you can't force the issue on both. If you can convince one to sign up then you can still tag the other and keep them both.

Ok.

But why can't we offer long contracts to both?

Because we shop for our players at garage sales.

Pryor is likely to re-sign if the money is right.

We definitely can. But why would a player sign a long term contract when he is three weeks away from free agency?

Pryor and Collins are both among the best players at their positions with regards to the players that are due to become free agents. They should both just wait and get the most money possible in free agency.

I hope we re-sign one and franchise the other.

Isn't that the truth...the Browns front office always seem to be bargain hunting, looking for a deal while claiming they are adding players who will change the culture of the Browns locker room.

The Browns front office sure did that, change the culture...taking a bad team and making it worse, while adding free agent talent, players who will change the culture of the Browns. They want players like Alvin Bailey, a drunk/druggie who not only can't play RT, but he is now suspended by the NFL for his substance abuse.

The Browns don't want to pay to keep guys like Schwartz, someone who started every game for 4 years and worked to get better every year and never had one off the field issue...but hey, the Boys saved Haslam some money..so that makes Haslam and the front office winners.

I've been saying right along that it's time to start drafting impact players instead of trading down. Well, it's also time to start spending money to KEEP some impact players. I feel we have 2, JC and TP. They both can be part of the foundation to build a winning team. No excuses. We have the cap space spend it and keep these guys. We need them for the future.

I don't understand the arguement of one or the other...we are fully capable of retaining both and I think we will...jmo

The Browns can keep both if they are able to reach an agreement to the contracts.

I think some are under the assumption that the players do not want to stay, so they can only keep one by tagging him.

Who turned down ~ $8,000,000 offered by the Browns only to end up signing for ~$7,000,000...

kinda the feeling I get as well. but I do think both wind up staying...extending Jamar is a sign they are going to try to keep our players this year...last year was last year.

*raises hand* Oooo, Ooo, Ooo pick me, pick me. I know the answer to this one

They think they know.
Obviously there is a gap. It's like buying a house or car for us "normal" folks. The owner wants top dollar and the buyer wants a deal.


What isn't known is how big is the gap?

If it isn't far, a deal could be worked out. If it is wide, one side or the other is going to have to learn the reality of things.


At this point, I don't have any idea who is off base. At this point, this is why a player agent seeks to test the market. I mean, why not? You know your guy is going to get signed. You would be doing him and you a disservice to take the first offer presented without a competitive offer if therer was a wide gap.


Same for the Browns. Why sign him for whatever the demand, before you know where the demand dictates?

Because right now they are the only team that can sign Pryor or Collins.

I was under the impression he settled for less money than we had on the table. What's with the snotty arrogance?

He did. It was reported that the Browns offer was around $7 mill a year but Schwartz and his agent thought he could get at least $8 mill a year on the open market so he chose free agency. When Schwartz started talking money with KC he and his agent found out that they had missed judged the market and came back to the Browns who thought they were just being used as a pawn to drive up the money so they pulled their offer. Schwartz ended up signing with KC for $6.6 mill a year.

The Browns blew it on Schwartz. Sashi has admitted as much off the record to Terry Pluto, the beans were spilled by Andre Knott. He wanted to stay in Cleveland. Brook Squires, his fiancee, is a grad from John Carroll University. Her family is from the Cleveland area. Regardless of the Chiefs record, Schwartz wanted to stay.

At this point, it's just another screw-up in the long line of screw-ups.

I think that screwing around with Schwartz is the biggest mistake Sashi Browns has made thus far.

I think that we can probably come to a deal with Pryor, as he really likes Hue Jackson, and he also chose to come back here at the end of 2015, when he reportedly had another offer in addition to the one from the Browns. However, we can't cheapskate a potential deal. He isn't going to sign here at a financial detriment to himself.

Franchise Pryor all day everyday before you let him walk. If Collins walks (which I don't want) at least we get the comp pick back and him being here didn't cast much.

Pryor and Coleman just need a good QB. This team has talent at many positions, QB is not one of them. The Oline is patchwork and needs attention too.

I can't help but think what Pryors numbers would have been this year if Gordon had come back and played like before... But we're the Browns so nothing ever goes as planned.

Before all the rules changed to protect players so much, I don't remember having so many season ending injuries... I don't remember this many ever as a matter of fact.

At the core of the problem with the Browns front office getting any of our own free agents signed, was this...


The Cleveland Browns have no idea how NFL free agency works

FOX Sports
Mar 10, 2016 at 1:45p ET
link

The Cleveland Browns retooled their front office after another terrible season by Lake Erie by eschewing the NFL scouting establishment and moving toward an analytics-based approach.

The Browns have been putrid since they were reborn in 1999, posting two winning seasons and one playoff appearance in 16 years. How bad has it been? The Browns started Kelly Holcomb at quarterback in that 2002 playoff game.

It’s laudable that the Browns opted to think outside-the-box in their efforts to pull the team out of perpetual futility, but so far this offseason, that plan appears to have backfired.

The opening of the NFL’s free agency period Wednesday coincided with an exodus of players from Cleveland. That’s a fairly normal occurrence around those parts, but the Browns’ front-office braintrust of Sashi Brown and Paul DePodesta (yes, that Paul DePodesta) should be taking plenty of blame.

According to several NFL insiders, Brown and DePodesta were completely unprepared for the start of free agency, which, no matter which way you look at it, is an event as important as the NFL Draft.

Browns players left, posthaste, in part because even if Brown and DePodesta were interested in keeping them, they weren’t prepared to negotiate.

It’s not a huge surprise that the Browns weren’t meeting agents and players at the table — neither Brown, the team’s "Executive Vice President of Football Operations", nor DePodesta, the team’s "Chief Strategy Officer", ever has been a chief personnel man.

These were two guys who found market inefficiencies on spreadsheets — they’re researchers — they never had to negotiate a contract.

Brown was previously the team’s salary cap guru, which put his memos, not him, at the table in contract negotiations under the last Browns regime.

DePodesta, who is best known for being one of the chief characters in "Moneyball," had never worked in football before being hired by the Browns. Did they expect him to square off with an NFL super agent?

As two men who should be able to point out weaknesses with ease, it’s equally surprising that they hired a 28-year-old, former Colts scout Andrew Berry, to be their top talent evaluator.

It doesn’t take a spreadsheet to add up the problem — of the top three people in the Browns’ front office, not one has ever negotiated an NFL contract.

Analytics are a tremendous thing, but it is only information. It’s a useless commodity to be rich in if you have no idea where, or how, to use it. There’s a reason it’s called a personnel department — there’s still a human element to it.

So gone are Tashaun Gipson, Travis Benjamin, Alex Mack and Mitchell Schwartz. But Johnny Manziel is still inexplicably on the team, and, hey, they have reported interest in Colin Kaepernick.

"To everybody that’s on the outside looking in, how do you lose two Pro Bowlers and an up-and-coming right tackle and one of the best returners as well as an up and coming receiver in one free agency class?" Gipson, who received a five-year, $35.5 million deal from the Jaguars, said at his press conference Thursday.

"I don’t know. But, for me, it’s not my job to know."

Hopefully, analytics can give the Browns an advantage so significant it can pull the team out of this failure of its own making.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Let's hope that The Harvard Boys took the criticism they received over their lack of understanding of how free agency works, as "constructive criticism".

I do not want to see a repeat performance from the Browns front office and their failure to get any business done.

Just don't screwup and allow Pryor to get away.

A million bucks to NOT be here? That's a deal most of our higher paid would take...

What did The Harvard Boys offer Schwartz?

Below is the contract Schwartz signed with KC. No need to guess!

Mitchell Schwartz signed a 5 year, $33,000,000 contract with the Kansas City Chiefs, including a $7,000,000 signing bonus, $20,700,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $6,600,000.
link

I'm not very confident that the FO will keep both Pryor and Collins. I hope I am wrong. It is, after all, just a feeling.

Not sure what will be worse: Losing two more good players or listening to all the excuses/justifications by the homers for another year.

vers...I hear you...

Until the boys actually get the job done, there will be doubts about their ability negotiate contracts.

They do have options to extend the negotiating period with Pryor, franchising him. I expect Collins to leave unless the boys are willing to overpay him.

...and Sashi and Hue are able to convince him that it is in his best interest to stay in order to be part of a championship caliber team in 2-3 years.

I would think the Browns will have to overpay anybody to stay here, or to come here. The good news (?) is we are reportedly $50M under the cap, and the cap is going up. We can afford it, and we can't keep losing viable players for nothing. If we do it'll just be a continuation of 1 step forward and 2 steps back that has kept this team in an ever-deepening rut.

J/c ...

A few things ...

- if we don't re-sign him just like with Mack it may not be the FO's fault ... or just like Schwartz it may be 100% on the FO ...

The FACTS are there in both cases but most on both sides of the debate only seem interested in advancing there agendas as opposed to accepting the conclusions the facts clearly point to ...

- everyone except tab and I seem to want to re-sign Pryor at pretty much any cost ... that clouds the fact that his choice of agents gets every penny he can for every client he has ...

A choice of an agent by a players tells u alot about them .. anyone picking Drew KNOWS what there signing an agent for .. and thats to get every single penny possible regardless of what it takes ... players that choose Drew aren't looking to do "hometown" discounts or settle for a few less dollars ...

UNLESS we put a deal on the table that exceeds what Drew thinks the market will pay there's no way in hell he lets Pryor sign w/o hitting FA ... NO WAY ... its simply not how he does business ...

Just look at Drew's history ... its right there for all to see ...

Its going to be interesting to see what happens this year in FA ... both in re-signing our own and who we go after when FA opens up ...

I for one don't think moneyball will work in football .. i actually think its MORONIC ... it will be interesting to see how they see it now after this season and the fact that the honeymoon is over ...

What will win .. MONEYBALL or the REALITIES OF AQUIRING TALENT IN FOOTBALL ....they just don't mesh together ... why? ... because:

FA in the NFL and MONEYBALL are diametrically opposed business models ...

Like i said .. this will be an INTERESTING FA season starting with signing our own and then when the market opens up ..

The facts are that they are not on the team and our team is worse off for it. I am so tired of the spin.

And I'm already dreading the spin that will occur if we lose Pryor and Collins.

The spin is starting up already for Pryor's exit. He's a diva, a primadonna, he acts out too much on the sideline, he had an apparent shouting match with Griffin when they had to use a time out because they couldn't get the play called in time. These are all narratives I've heard and read in local media "reporting". We have a guy who actually cares about LOSING. It bothers him - oh, the horror.

Me too ... from BOTH SIDES! ...

U see Dave ...there's a difference between caring about losing and acting like a 2 year old before, during or after a game ... HUGE DIFFERENCE ...

I say go ahead and overspend for guys.

We should be the golden standard that having the most cap space isn't always a good thing.

The presence of one doesn't necessarily mean an absence of the other. Being demonstrative could mean he thinks some of his teammates are a bit too philosophical about being 0-13. IMO, 0-13 means too many guys don't care enough about the losing. But, sure as I'm sitting here, they'll be out there on the field after the game yukking it up and trading jerseys with the guys that just kicked their asses.

He did sign for less if you look at the total amount of the contract. But the total amount of the contract is never guaranteed. What players look for is the amount of guaranteed money. That's all a player can actually count on recieving. And Schwartz got more guaranteed money in the contract he signed.

Pryor has great upside, but he is nowhere near franchise tag caliber.

If it comes down to not be able to sign either before FA, you tag Collins and let Pryor test the market.

I doubt Pryor gets any offers more than $12-13 mil a year. If we match what other teams offer, I think that Pryor will stay with Hue and the offense that he knows rather than have to learn a new one while still learning to be a WR.

This shouldn't be the most difficult thing in the world.

J/c ... i don't get it ... what am i missing ....

What part of ... WE PULLED THE OFFER do u guys not understand ... everything i've read says this is the proccess and those pesky DETAILS on this one ...

- we made Schwartz the offer before FA started ...

- Schwartz tested the market ...

- we pulled the offer ...

- Schwartz found out we had the best offer ....

- schwartz came back and the original offer was no longer an option ..... and as far as i know we didn't EVEN MAKE ANOTHER OFFER ...

- Schwartz went to KC ...

Thats what i read back then ...

If i'm missing somehitng please let me know .. i HATE being MIS-INFORMED ... HATE IT!!

If what it posted is true ... why is anyone comparing offers ... we didn't have the original offer on the table and i'm pretty sure we never even were an option for him as we didn't offer him squat when he came back after FA started .... \

What am i missing guys? ...

I don't disagree with a thing you said. It was a moronic "Trump like" power move that came back to bite us in the butt.

I don't think you are missing anything. That seems to be the most-quoted story. In the end, none of us REALLY knows what happened or why.

Losing Schwartz was a bad move and Mack wasn't going to stay regardless. It appears they may have boned it up by cutting Gabriel too, but they nailed letting go of Gipson and Benji - due to performance and the ridiculous contracts they landed. They have worked the waiver wire well...the '16 draft report card can't be graded yet.

We are what and where I thought we'd be back in the summer.

"Schwartz went back to the Browns in the hours before free agency and ultimately planned to accept their pre-combine offer. But they were informed by Cleveland that the offer no longer stood, at least not at $7 million a year. "

Bottom line: It didn't have to come to this. The Browns were willing to pay Schwartz $7 million a year, more than he's getting from the Chiefs. His $15 million guaranteed from Kansas City is more than what the Browns were offering, but a deal could've been struck had things not gotten ugly on Wednesday. It's unfortunate for both sides.

Diam...........how can you say it is a FACT that there was absolutely no way that Mack would re-sign w/us when the real fact is that he flew back from California to meet w/Haslam in the FO about re-signing w/the team?

Also, how smart was it to lose Gipson? It sounds like they never even made a serious offer for him.

NRTU

Very smart. He's JAG who wanted a big contract and he got one. Good for him...good for the Browns. He's been every bit as non-descript this year as last...but with a boatload of money.

There are plenty of reasons to bash certain moves by the FO. Not offering Gipson that stupid money isn't one though.

We have guys who can do this for a lot less money:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/searc...905732d40d1fe70

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highl...ch-interception

If you think Gipson is anywhere near the $$$ he got, you really should watch the Jags this year.

funny how almost every thread is turned into a Scwartz thread...and no Mack already stated he wanted to play else where...not sure how many times we have to re-hash this same topic.

We are trying to aquire talent.

Through the draft.

If you want to see what can happen when you spend a bunch of money on FAs, just look at the Jaguars, Dolphins, and Redskins of years past..

The flip side of that is teams like Oakland and NYG, the overriding factor those two teams have is a QB.

Your not missing anything Diam, but the reason the Browns offer was pulled was because Schwartz's agent showed no interest in the offer when it was made and they didn't want to be used just to drive up what KC was offering him.

Gipson highlight

You guys saying that there was no way that Mack would stay over and over again does not make it true. But, I was asking Diam. Not you. You have already proven to have an agenda, just like the guy who says that Gipson is overpaid. Our poor safety play has been an issue all year. Jax was second in pass defense last time I checked.

that same argument was used around here a few seasons ago.

and the same counter holds true. they're 2nd in pass defense because they are 23rd against the run.

teams don't need to throw, they just run all over them.

And that translates into Gipson sucking? Great argument.

Every coach that has coached Gipson loved the guy. Gipson made the Pro-Bowl. He is young. Only 26. He is a very good FS and a bunch of homers who have an agenda isn't going to change that fact.

I am glad you guys are so happy w/losing and putting out a terrible product out there.

And the same guys who were bashing me for criticizing Farmer are the same guys acting like I don't have a clue about this FO. LOL........it's amazing how y'all don't skip a beat even when reality punches you right in the face.

no, but that translates to your comment about them being 2nd in pass defense.

the rest of your comment is pointless so there's no point in addressing that.

so yea, when teams aren't electing to throw on you because they can run it down your throat, then the pass defensive ranking becomes muggy.

especially when you take into account that they are last in the league in INT with only 3, and 21st in opponent's QB rating at 93.3, which tells you that when teams do decide pass, they are having pretty good success.

and that right there does translate to gipson maybe not sucking, but not being that good this year, either.

And once again your forgetting the bad blood that was developing between him and the FO, when they tagged him with a 2nd rd. tender instead of a 1st. He even held out and didn't participate in OTA's. He was upset and I don't think the FO really cared one way or another. At least I don't think they brought him in and talked to him about it. They just let him brood and then cuts ties.

Pointless? Take a hike!

lol of course that's the only part you respond to.

There's only one guy that I wish we would have kept and that's Schwartz. I knew we didn't have a chance to keep Mack and we did offer him more money. Gipson wasn't worth what he signed for.

The guy spouting stats for the Jax defense should try watching some games. Gipson sucks this year.

Haden has made the Pro Bowl twice before and sucked this year too.

I think in that deal with Schwartz GREED was the reason the deal wasn't done and I think it was the agent for Schwartz that caused the riffs.

Schwartz's brother being in his ear telling him to get out of Cleveland all the time didn't help matters either.

Losing Schwartz accomplished "what"?

Just what did the Browns accomplish by not getting the Schwartz deal done?

I swore I'd never talk about this one with u again ... we simply disagree ... but this is a legite question so I'll answer it ... and to be honest I'm not sure why .. your mind is clearly made up and u make that PERFECTLY CLEAR when u say ... "when the REAL FACT is he flew back from cali" .. thats the ONLY FACT u want to focus on ... u IGNORE everything leading up to that ..

I showed those PESKY DETAILS to point out what actually happend with Schwartz cause those with the "this FO can do no wrong" agenda use revisionist history to make there point .. they CHANGE WHAT HAPPEND .. u don't do that ... u just IGNORE anything that happend up til Mack flew back for the meeting ...

Sorry bro .. we just don't se this one the same way ... i actually give our SCUMBAG owner and this FO that i believe is DOOMED TO FAILURE credit for getting him back here to even have the opportunity for him to re-sign here ..

Now for the ENTIRE HISTORY ... lets start with the SCUMABG buying the team ...

- Mack in 3 years had seen 2 HC's and two FO's be FIRED ... so in the scumbags 4th year he was about to see his 3rd HC and his 3rd FO ... thats in 4 years bro ...

- we were coming off a 3 - 13 year ... with not much talent and way more questions than answers .. has Mack ever played on a winning team since coming here? .. serious question .. if he has it was one at most ..

- he OPTED OUT OF HIS CONTRACT ... and not for money .. he said he WANTED OUT ... thats what he said .. MORE THAN ONCE ... he made it perfectly clear he didn't want to be a part of this dysfunction and LOSING anymore .... look what he went through just the year before with Shanny .. that was RIDICOULOUS .... can u blame him? .. the SCUMBAGS ownership has been a dismal failure on EVERY LEVEL ... we are the model of a DYSFUNCTIONAL ORGANAZATION ... on EVERY LEVEL ...

- He then gets an offer to go to Atlanta and play for Shanny with a gaping hole at Center .. sounds like what he was looking for .. a chance to win and a chance to play on an O with a TON OF TALENT and an OC he knows quite well ..

- then the SCUMBAG and the Hue/Moneyballers get him back to what IMO was a HUGE LONGSHOT to get him back .. they realized how important he was to this team ... IMO getting him back here to even listen was a HUGE COUP ...

I thought the odds of Mack re-signing here after the meeting were SLIM to NONE ... its not like his MOTIVES for wanting to leave had changed .. even if he BELIEVED Hue/FO could live up to whatever they said in the meeting, why in the hell would he believe the SCUMBAG would all of a sudden have patience and more importantly .. why would he think we were going to be ready to win in the NEXT 3 OR 4 YEARS??? ..

His MOTIVES and REASONS for wanting out after the season had not changed ... all we did was hire Hue and bring in MONEYBALL ..

The fact he didn't turn us down before he boarded his plane back to Cali was a win for us .. *L* .. the fact he had to think about it for 24 -- 48 hours actually did surprise me ..

U want to ignore his DESIRE to leave for legite reasons and act like the fact he agreed to come back for a meeting meant that we had a "legite" shot to sign him .. thats your prerogative .... I didn't see it that way .. I thought is was a "hail mary" at best ..

As for Gipson .. i've stood fairly quiet on him for a few reasons ...

BOTTOM LINE: .. Sashi said we would be re-signing our own as a part of the plan .. appearantly when he said "our" own literally meant the guys him and hue/moneyballers brought in ... *L* ..

I was not a big fan of Gipson .. thought he was overrated .. also thought it was a MISTAKE to let him walk .. we simply had to many holes and a ton of salary cap room ..

To me . Schwartz was the poster child for last off seasons MISTAKES .. plus more facts are known about what went on with him ..

Like u said .. were not even sure if Gipson was even offered a contract .. to be fair .. he also talked about wanting out ..

No clue exactly how this one went down .. hence why i've stood relatively quiet on it ..

I do believe it was a mistake if we indeed did let him walk .. STUPID actually .. and i was no fan of Gipsons ...

I understand were trying to aquire talent through the draft ... i AGREE with that ... best way to build a team ..

Question for u ..

Do u understand the fact that not all FA's COST the SAME ...

I didn't say I wanted HIGH PRICED FA'S that kill a team .... i would have LOVED to have seen one or two 2nd or even 3rd tier FA's signed last year ... guys u don't overpay for and don't put abusive dents in your cap space ...

Same with this year .. i want no big splash FA's for us this year .... but feel we have to sign at least 2 mid level guys ... we just have too many holes at this point and rookies are rookies ....

As long as they had a reason for it .... ...

Thats just a DUMB ASS reason to pull an offer ... STUPID ....

We'll see how they treat Pryor/Collins this year if they don't sign between now and the day FA starts ....

I don't blame a guy who just plain wants out of this circus regardless of any offer! It doesn't have to be greed or any other reason. It's just a plain crappy place to play since the return.

I appreciate your lengthy response, but I have to say that I think you are misunderstanding me. I am NOT saying that it's a fact that Mack wanted to return. I am saying there is no factual evidence that he was gone "no matter what." The fact that he flew back from Cali after the season shows he was at least considering a return.

I have fought against all the homers who make things up and say that he was gone no matter what. They say that to defend or make make excuses for the FO.

There is a guy or two on here who say I have an agenda. LOL. That agenda is..........let's keep it real, be honest, and don't make crap up. Their agenda is to defend the FO by making crap up. Big difference, bro. It's been going on for years and I am to the point that I am beyond sick of the same guys making crap up all the time and then acting like the realists are the crazy ones.

As far as Gipson goes..........why get rid of a 26 year old former Pro Bowl player when you have a ton of cap space and no one to replace him? That is freaking stupid and I don't care what the homers say. You could have kept him and cut him later if he didn't pan out.

And then I watch Gabriel and Benji catch TD passes w/in a couple of minutes of each other. But, they are not good enough for us.

This team blows!

It does, but the coaching isn't far behind.

Hue needs a O coordinator. If he wants to remain as one, he needs to step down and take that job elsewhere. Week after week he talks about running the ball, and week after week we don't.

Crow got a whopping 8 carries today. Johnson got maybe 5 carries. Running the ball shortens the game and keeps it close. Crow hasn't had one game this season with 20 carries. That's a load of crap IMO.

I don't want to hear about not being able to run because we are behind. Shorten the game, run the friggen ball, and maybe give up a bit in the 4th qtr. if necessary. Crow should have 8 carries by the early/mid 2nd qtr.


I remember in pre-season Hue talking about other teams will need to defend every blade of grass on the field. That's pretty funny stuff. If you aren't going to invest in running the ball, your QBs are going to get killed....and guess what? They have.

Hue needs to understand what his job is and not try to do a coordinators job.

Hue already has an offensive coordinator. His name is Pep Hamilton. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pep_Hamilton

You might not want to hear what I have to say, but I surely don't want to hear you guys keep blaming the coaching staff and defending the owner and the FO, because I KNOW who is really to blame for this miserable season!

I am not defending the owner or anyone else.


Maybe they are the ones calling the plays. My bad, maybe we need to get Pep and or the FO up to speed on running the ball more.

I don't think that there is one person in this forum that is a fan of the owner.

Look peen..............it's NOT the play calling...........it's the lack of talent!!!!

That's because you don't "think."

And you are a track coach with a heavy agenda to control the forum.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else.

I didn't address you until you addressed me. Stay away from me and all will be good. You sicken me w/your BS agenda.

This isn't about the wins and losses. It's about the strategy being used.


I just think we would be far better suited to running the ball, and we don't.

Are you arguing that any coach would be good with talent?

It doesn't work like that and you scare about as much as a Charlie Brown Christmas special so go ahead and bait me all you want. Just be prepared for the back end of that deal.

No, but how did Hue go from a well-respected coach to a bum?

OK....both of you knock it off. Vers and I are friends and are having a conversation.

Not trying to scare you. I just think you are a terrible poster and run your mouth too much. I just need to ignore the likes of you.

Now wait, I never said he was a bum. I simply questioned his strategy and asked if maybe he was in over his head. I know he is a quality coach. He has done good things as a coordinator.

It's what guys like him do. They don't have an argument, so they make it personal.

It's a good thing that nobody really cares much about what you think then.

Other than you.

You think you are a genius and tell us all as much every day.

We could be witnessing the Peter Principle here.

Maybe not as well. He did go 8-8 with Oakland under some pretty bad circumstances.

It's a small sample size though.

I'm just saying it's a possibility that Hue isn't any good. Even with more talent. I can't point to one single "coaching" thing that has occurred this year that makes me say he's the guy. I'm disappointed in that. Very.

peen, we don't have to agree. I respect you and am not fighting w/you. I am just saying that no coach can win w/this type of talent.

That's one of the biggest problems w/this "plan." All this losing leads to unfair evaluations. You think it's bad this year? Wait until next year when this team loses almost all of it's games again.

And when we fire Hue and other coaches.........we'll be starting over yet again. It's an endless cycle.

The problem exists w/ownership and the FO. This plan needs to be revised or it is doomed to fail. You simply cannot w/stand losing this many games for two to three years in a row w/out making changes to the coaching staff. And then, you are back to square one.

Oh, I bet more people respect my opinion more than yours. But, that isn't what I'm talking about. I just need to take Diam's advice and avoid the likes of you.

There are some things that have me scratching my head with Hue but overall I like him as a coach and nobody was expecting much from this team this year.

Changing the head coach right now makes about as much sense as changing the FO right now. Neither would be a great idea in my opinion.

Do you remember BEFORE the season when posters ridiculed me because I questioned how much of a difference Hue was going to make?

It wasn't because I thought Hue sucked. It was because I knew this roster sucked.

I read posts that say he is "trying to get to cute." LOL.......that is what you say if the talent cannot execute the play. If the talent can execute the play, they call they say, "what a creative play caller."

What you need to avoid is all the BS that you spew and you probably wouldn't hear a peep from me.

You'd probably avoid a lot of peeps from others as well.

You and Joe Banner are like Skip Bayless and Tony Romo.

At times I think you're Mike Lombardi incognito.

That is one of the things I like about Hue is the fact that he is willing to call the trick plays that he does. Even when they don't work they keep defenses on their heels and force extra preparation for the other team.

What makes you think I care what you--and the others you speak of---think?

LOL man! Seriously! You just an internet bully who gangs up w/others to get on people who don't see it your way. We are 0 and 14 and you wanna get on me for BS because I question the direction of the team.

I mean..........you can't make this crap up!!!

So is there anything visible we should be able to see on game day that tells us Hue would be a good coach with better talent? I'm looking for something that I'm not seeing. It could be there and I just don't know what I'm looking for.

There are a few things to look for in my opinion:

--Has the team quit on him?

--Are there a ton of unforced mistakes, such as illegal procedures, false starts, illegal motion, lining up in the neutral zone, off side, etc? Please consider the experience of the players when making this evaluation.

--Is he getting praised by opponents before the game due to his creativity?

--Is he being creative?

--Is he masking the weaknesses of some of his players?

--How is his clock management?

Look Rish, I don't think the guy has been perfect, but no coach is perfect. How do you explain how guys like Belichick could only win 5 games w/a Cleveland team and then win multiple championships? How has Del Rio gotten so much better than he was before? Pete Carrol? How did Rivera win 17 games last year [including two playoff games] and then be 5 and 8 this year?

I just think that the focus needs to be on ownership and the FO and NOT on the coaches. Get the coaches some talent and THEN evaluate them.

I know you are not fighting with me. We have a mutual respect my man. We are just sitting around the cyber bar, chewing the fat. Is the next round on me, or is it your turn??


I don't know that I agree that the plan can't work. I read a pretty good article on this board today about good moves the FO has made to bolster the roster.

I do agree we can't simply bolster the bottom of the roster, something I have talked about as being important for years now. We have to make the top picks count.


Right now we have one sample size and it is way too soon to draw conclusions on that, be it that none are looking great at this point. Ogbagh is looking comfortable now that we have settled on him as a hand in the dirt player. Coleman has flashed, but between injury and unsettled QB play, it remains to be seen if he emerges as a top receiver.

We'll know more on this last draft class next year. I will admit that as of now we probably don't have any HOF's or even multiple pro bowlers in this last haul. But we might have 2-3 pretty good players. By that I mean solid NFL players. Here in Cleveland it seems the fans are looking for star type players. I want those as well, but there is nothing wrong with good players.


Gerard Warren is a good example. Maybe he was drafted early. That wasn't his fault. The guy started for every team where he played, went to a pro-bowl or two, and was a solid player, but here, since he never measured up to expectations, he was a bust.

The guy played maybe 12 seasons as a starter, on some pretty good teams to boot. That is far from a bust IMO, but we expected the next Warren Sapp and 15 sacks a season, and anything less is a bust.


I know you agree that good players is what we want and need, and I agree with you on some of the guys we let go. I liked Gabriel. Benji not as much, but with a FO and coaching change, players are going to change.


It is what it is.

peen..........I am not guaranteeing it won't work. It's just an opinion. But, that opinion is that losing a huge amount of games for two to three straight years and not fire the coaches, especially given Haslam's track record.

And what happens when we fire the coaches, peen? We get the same people who defend this regime saying we gotta give the new guys time until they too lose a bunch of games.

It never ends.

Says the guy giving out nicknames to people with a different opinion.

In our first series we ran and got 10+ yards only to have it put us in a drive killing situation with the 10 yard penalty. It seemed to dampen our trust in the run game for some reason. And when we did run we did not execute well.

We just are not getting enough time on O (reps) to get a good running game going.

Duke Johnson gets his opportunities cause when he comes in the D usually goes Nickel Package.

We cannot be predictable. I formation with the FB...ummm 9/10 times we are running with Crowell.

Behind in a philosophical sense I agree with you. But lately its our D with the first 20 minutes or so...bang bang bang I thought we were down 17-3 just like that. Considering we don't score more than 17 that often...we sort of screw ourselves early on. The last two games that has been the case. At that point on Time consuming drives that might end up with us punting or just going for a FG does not help us at all.

jmho

'Browns' Terrelle Pryor has a torn ligament in his finger, might need surgery'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...ncart_big-photo

By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com on December 19, 2016 at 11:18 AM, updated December 19, 2016 at 2:39 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Terrelle Pryor suffered a torn ligament in his finger during Sunday's 33-13 loss to Buffalo and might need surgery to repair it, a source told cleveland.com.

He will undergo an MRI and is getting a second opinion on the finger.

His status for the final two games of the season, Saturday against San Diego and Jan. 1 at Pittsburgh, is uncertain.

Pryor wants to play, a source said, but the torn ligament might prevent him from doing so. The injury, in a knuckle, affected him in the second half of the game.

Pryor caught only four of his eight targets for 19 yards, and dropped one at the Bills' 5. That followed on the heels of one catch for 3 yards against the Bengals the week before.

Pryor leads the Browns with 67 catches for 877 yards and four TDs.

He has two more chances to try to reach the 1,000-yard milestone.

NFL Network first reported that he sprained his finger and needed an MRI.

Browns coach Hue Jackson said he regretted not being able to get the ball more to Pryor in Buffalo.

"Terrelle has a reputation now,'' he said. "People know who you are and are trying to take you out of the game, and we're trying to get it to him. Sometimes the ball doesn't go where it should or protection doesn't hold up. It's a variety of different things. It's not that we're not trying to get him the ball. We're trying to. We did some things different in the second half, but then like you said, that dries up too.

"Teams start figuring that out. So, we have to play better. It's just that simple. Offensive football is about a team. It's about a unit playing well. The quarterback has to lead that and everybody has to be in sync. We have a rhythm and then there's no rhythm, and then it disappears and sometimes we don't get it back. I haven't seen this in a long time in my career in football. But I know what it is, so we'll just continue to get better at it. ''

Hue regretted not getting Pryor the ball more? Rg3 threw the ball to him 8 times! and he dropped too many to my liking.

next man up

It's easy to say that, but we still need to run the ball my friend. Running the ball is a investment. You can't just scrap it because your D sucks and you are down by 10-14 in the 2nd qtr.


To me, that early in the game, the goal is to sustain a drive, chew some clock, and rest the D a bit. The D always has to exert a bit more energy because they have to react to what is happening. Offensive players on the off side of the field can take a play off here and there with no real negative impact on the play. Defenders can't really do that. They have to be ready on every snap. Offensive players know going in if they can lolly a bit.


Hue talks about running the ball, but gives it up very early on. Had Joe Gibbs given up on the run the way Hue does, Riggins would have never gained his 2nd half yards, which is where he gained the most.

I'm trying to figure out why we do what we do. Me, In the windy conditions and our QB needing to get rust off. I'm freaking running 9 out of 10 times and sometimes running on 4th down. Maybe a few Play actions after run, run, run, thats me. Not talking about me and my opinions. Trying to find logic in why our numbers are down. Thats all.

our o-line can't run block worth a darn since joel went down. we just get a lucky run in here and there. if all we did was run it would be a lot of 3 and outs.

I don't know that I agree. We gain yards. I don't think we have run enough to know if we can or can't. I do know our QB's have issues and also get sacked 10% of the time, so I do know our pass blocking or the QB can't get the ball out quick enough for whatever reason. Maybe the receivers don't get open????

Play action only works if teams think you very well might run.

we don't run the ball enough to know if we're effective enough. we are always so far behind in points so early in the game lately.

Terrelle Pryor knows it could be his last game with Browns: 'It's got to make sense for both sides'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com on December 29, 2016 at 3:43 PM, updated December 29, 2016 at 4:26 PM

BEREA, Ohio -- Terrelle Pryor has contemplated the notion that Sunday's season finale in Pittsburgh might be his last in a Browns uniform.

He'll be an unrestricted free agent March 9, and if the Browns don't extend him by then, they risk losing him on the open market.

As it is, his agents Drew and Jason Rosenhaus, have shelved extension talks until after the season -- and likely want him to test the market, where players often hit the jackpot.

"I just know they told me they were waiting, so that's all I had to hear,'' said Pryor. "It's my first time, I've been cut so many times. I wasn't good enough. Now it's my agents' turn to do their jobs and put me in the best position for myself. I believe in them and trust them.''

A fourth-year pro, Pryor knows as well as anyone it's a business, and that anything can happen.

"Like I said before, I have the utmost respect for Hue (Jackson), but at the end of the day, it's got to make sense for both sides,'' he said. "That's the only thing I know about contracts, it's got to make sense. I love to play for Hue and I played my hardest and I'm getting more experience as I go and there's things I could do better obviously and we all can. But that's just the thing were striving for, as LeBron, his mantra is: strive for greatness.

"I love to play for him and I enjoy playing for him this year and I'd love to play for him longer. But at the end of the day, it's got to come down to what my agents think is right for me.''

Pryor admitted that he's thought about this being it for him in Cleveland, despite the fact the Browns started talking to his agents months ago about a new deal, including talks that took place in Cleveland.

"Yeah, you always gotta think about that, especially in my situation being a free agent this coming up after this game,'' said Pryor, who's playing with a torn ligament in his right middle finger that will require surgery a day after the season. "Obviously it's something that you think about.

"I was talking to somebody and I said, 'man it would be great to see what our fans would be like for 7-2, 8-1, 9 and whatever,' because I thought that place was electric. Even when we were 0-14 coming into the game, we still had a lot of fans there and after the game it felt like it was 60,000-70,000 there cheering loud.

"You can see how bad they want us to win, so it's something you've got to think about and something I think about. But I can't control that and it's not my call. It's the guys upstairs, but I'm definitely grateful for the opportunity they gave me and I'm grateful to be on this team no matter what the record is.''

Pryor is 87 yards shy of his goal of 1,000 yards in his first season as a receiver. He was well on his way to the coveted milestone until Robert Griffin III returned to the lineup the past three games and struggled with the passing game. In those three outings, Pryor has caught only eight passes for 58 yards. If Cody Kessler or Josh McCown had been starting, he'd undoubtedly have his 1,000 by now -- a remarkable accomplishment for the converted quarterback.

"Anytime you set goals, everybody has goals coming into the season and stuff like that but at the end of the day I think a victory overrules it and like I said, I know I could get 1,000 yards,'' he said. "I believe I'm the type of player and I know that, but this is really about the team. It could happen. It's not far away at all. It's easy, so it's just taking it one play at a time and just go making plays, try to be there for Rob or Cody, whoever's starting.''

After Griffin's first game back, Pryor tumbled from 11th in receiving yards to 22nd. Now, he's 28th with 913. He's also 29th with 70 receptions and has four TDs. He'd undoubtedly have more TDs if he was used more in the red zone.

"We've had about six quarterbacks or so this year but I believe in whoever's back there, because coach Hue's putting them back there,'' Pryor said of RG3 getting the nod in Pittsburgh. "I've got to handle my job and get open and if it comes my way, make a play.''

If the Browns can't reach a deal with Pryor before March 9th, they can always franchise him for about $16 million in 2017. But they're also trying to keep linebacker Jamie Collins, who's set to hit the market in March, and can only franchise one of them.

The Rosenhaus' will likely sell teams on the fact that Pryor had four different starting quarterbacks this season, including a rookie in Kessler and a veteran in RG3 who was benched all of last season and hurt for most of this year.

If Pryor had played with an established QB, he very well could've made the Pro Bowl in his first year at the position. He's still learning the nuances of beating top-notch cornerbacks, but some teams will view him as a No. 1 receiver and be willing to pay him like one.

Even former Browns receiver Travis Benjamin received $6 million a year from the Chargers in free agency last offseason. In Cleveland, 2016 No. 15 overall pick Corey Coleman is the No. 1 wideout, and the Browns will probably be reluctant at least at the outset to give Pryor No. 1 money, which is in the $9 million to $14 million a year range.

"I just love competing against the best,'' Pryor said. "I get the best corner every week and I love competing against the guys. These past three games for me haven't been well, there's multiple reasons for that. I just really want to go out and play the best that I can and really enjoy victories.''

And if they win this week, his second Browns victory could also be his last.

Huh ... who would have figured TP would be out for himself here ... some may have said that when they found out who he picked for his agent ...

I know i for am shocked by this change in stance by TP ..

SHOCKED I TELL YA ...

*LOL* ... saw this one coming from day 1 ...

Who's he supposed to be out for, it's just business and he needs to win for him. Seems fairly normal to me.

He deserves to earn his money the same as anyone else. I hope we make him a good offer and get him locked in place for the next 5 years because I think he will only get better.

Honestly, if we can get a third round comp for him, let him walk.

Yeah, the Browns don't need talented players.

I hear ya, Vers. I don't wanna break the bank for him but it aint my money. He's got some talent so let's keep him, I'm tired of draftniks who love hoarding picks.

Just make the man a good offer.. if he hits the Schwartz on us.. Deuces!

Not if they're worth less than what we pay them!

The NFL's Smartest Teams Hoard Draft Picks, And The Patriots And Seahawks Are 2 Prime Examples


Grantland's Bill Barnwell has a good article about the ways in which Bill Belichick's strategy of trading down in the NFL Draft has helped the Patriots over the years.

According to Barnwell's numbers, Belichick has made 48 trades that involved only draft picks over the last 15 years, which works out to about 3.2 trades per draft. The value that he created by those trades is equivalent to getting a No.1-overall pick, No. 2-overall pick, and No.-19 overall pick for nothing.

The takeaway here: Since teams overvalue high picks and the draft is completely driven by chance anyway, the league's smartest teams hoard their own picks and trade down to get extra picks whenever possible.

The Seahawks and the Patriots are two good examples.

Despite giving up draft picks in the disastrous Percy Harvin trade, Seattle has had 48 draft picks in the last five years, the most in the NFL. The Patriots have made 44 draft picks in the last five years, which ranks eighth in the NFL.

Research suggests that the NFL Draft is "95-100%" driven by chance. No NFL team is better or worse than any other NFL team at drafting players.

But where teams can differentiate themselves is in the number of picks they make. If the draft is completely driven by chance, the only way to get an edge is by making more picks than everyone else, thus giving yourself more opportunities to find players that pan out.

Since 2010 the average NFL team has made 39.75 draft picks. There are 10 NFL teams that have made at least 44 draft picks:

Seattle — 48
San Francisco — 48
Philadelphia — 48
Minnesota — 47
St. Louis — 47
Cincinnati — 45
Green Bay — 45
New England — 44
Pittsburgh — 44
Houston — 44

Those teams won an average of 9.7 games in 2014. The 17 teams that made fewer than 40 picks since 2010 won an average of 7.6 games in 2014.

The team with the fewest draft picks over the last five years, New Orleans, only made 28 draft picks — 20 fewer than Seattle.

The Patriots and Seahawks simply don't give away their draft picks.

http://www.businessinsider.com/seahawks-patriots-nfl-draft-strategy-2015-1

Yeah, good point considering we are in cap hell.

Lol

His agent is doing his job. I have no problem with that. Now it's time to see what kind of man TP really is. Is he a greedy bastid, or a team player and Cleveland fan. Make your choice TP and be prepared to live the last 50 years of your life with the co·in·ci·dence

Nothing wrong with him getting some, but I hope he doesn't forget the team that gave him a chance. That should mean something.

As much as I like that line of thinking, the Browns would cut ties with him in a millisecond if it served them better. TP needs to look out for himself, end of story. As much as I want him to stay and hope we make him a good offer if he bolts for more money I have no problem with that. An NFL career can end at any time, the players need to look out for themselves first.

Agreed.

He doesn't owe the Browns anything. They would cut him if he was stinking the joint out.

The real question is whether or not the FO will be able to "keep their own?"

why not slap transition tag on him and let someone else set his value

Because they may think the value of a tag is better suited for Jamie Collins. That's where I'd lean anyways. Now, if they sign Collins before the tag deadline, that could be an option.

Side note- All this talk about the Browns having cap money and should spend just because of that fact really has a rather wreckless point of view. The Browns still need to be wise with their money. Collins and Pryor aren't the only ones worth a contract extension. In my opinion, Collins, Bitonio, and Kirksey are all worth more than Pryor. Pryor (or by proxy, his agent) is looking for #1 WR I'm guessing. What warrants that amount of money based on his performance this year? I don't blame the guy for wanting to get paid, and for his sake, get what you can while you're in the league, but I don't want the Browns to fork over #1 WR dollars if that is what he is looking for. He hasn't earned that type of money and just because we have money, doesn't mean we should simply hand it over. That's dumb.

yeah i forgot you can't use transition if you use franchise...i agree, while Pryor shows promise, he's not really anything special. He's shown he's mistake prone and has iffy hands..but he has the two things you can't teach size and speed. But imo, collins would be much more important to lockup to a long term deal to anchor the defense.

lead...REALLY..?

I guess you think that 6-6/240 pound WRs just grow on trees or that the Browns already have someone to step into the #1 and produce like Pryor has...70 catches and 934 yds?

This is a "final test" of this Harvard Boys front office...if you can't sign your own free agents...time to find someone who can.

It's not like the Browns don't have the cap space, is it?

Why has Bitonio and Kirksey deserved more? Unless your name is Joe Thomas I can't guarantee you deserve to be on this roster in 2-3 years.

I'm curious about the people who clamor for the re-signing of Pryor crowd. How much would you pay him? 30 mil a year? 20 mil a year? 10 mil a year? Less than that? We have the cap space to do all of that. Where is your line on how much Pryor is worth?

For his production, he needs an incentive laden contract that would pay him for current production about $7.5M per year, with incentive bonuses up to $10M per year, with about $15M in guarantees....I know you are going to say that's on the low side, but it's Eric Decker $#s without Eric Decker production...I don't understand why everyone thinks it's going to take $10M a year with $25M in guarantees.

Personally, I think he's worth 10 mil a year or more. I think he's a top 15 WR and should be paid like one. 10 mil a year would put him around the 15th slot. I think the contract that TY Hilton got would be a good basis to go on. But I would strongly advise not going much over that.

did he grow 2" and gain 20lbs?? And 934 yards is nothing nowadays...he's barely in the top 30 in the league, theres TE's ahead of him. Not saying that TP doesn't have promise, but he has a long ways to go to be a #1, he's also got some issues with attitude to cleanup, but my point with it is, for the money he probably thinks he deserves and what his actual value is I'm think is pretty vast. Theres alot of things that go into his production, things out of his control, but he's paid to catch the ball and he's had quite a few bad drops. If it came down to he or Collins, I'm taking Collins. But if TP is willing to sign a fair contract with some performance kickers that will allow him to get paid and possibly get paid more as he learns the position and becomes more productive.

I think 7-10million base with kickers of another 5-8 built in that he can earn would be more than fair

I like all those numbers - and I would be happy to pay more to keep him. The guy has had a horrible situation at QB - and he's not had a WR opposite him for much of the season, Coleman has flashed but the injury really hurt and he's looked rusty since return.

I hope we resign him - but if he doesn't want to be here, then it really won't matter what we do. If another team covets him and offers a huge contract because they think he's the piece of the puzzle to push them into the SB.... then we need to find a replacement. He's been a bit disappointing the last 3 weeks though - is that teams learning to nullify him or only a reflection of the Browns horrible offense?

When did he get the torn ligament in his finger?

Two weeks ago, I believe...but that is another reason I WANT to re-sign him. He could have easily ducked out for the year...Corey Coleman would have...

I like players that want to be on the field with their teammates.

Size aside, that's a lot of production from a WR that's used to playing QB and without a consistent QB to work with.

Sounds like a guy worth paying to stay put.

I agree. Sign him, pay him. It's a step in the right direction to make this team a contender.

Part of creating a successful franchise is paying players who work hard and perform above expectations. I don't think anyone can dispute that Pryor is a hard worker (transitioning from quarterback to wide receiver this late in a career is basically unheard of) and I personally thought he wouldn't even make the team when we signed him.

I'm not the one who grew him 2" and 20#...

Even at 6-4/223, with his wing span, he is a big target..and he is tough.



Terrelle Pryor
Position: QB Throws: Right
6-6, 240lb (198cm, 108kg)
Team: Cleveland Browns
Born: June 20, 1989 (Age: 27-193d) in Jeanette, PA
College: Ohio St. (College Stats)

link

That's weird - Pryor's height. I remember him being listed as 6'6" in college.

But even the Browns roster has him listed at 6'4", 223.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/roster.html

Not that it matters much I guess.

Top 15 ... WOW .... u way over rate him ... short list

Julio
Antonio
Mike Evans
TY Hilton ... Donte Moncrief
Jordy Nelson .. Devanta Adams and Randall Cobb ... he'd be 4th on that team ... *LOL* ..
D. Thomas .. Emanual Sanders ....
Amari Cooper .. Crabtree ...
Keenan Allen
Hopkins
Rishard Matthews
Allen Robinson
Brandon Marshall ... Eric Decker ...
Taylor Gabriel ... oh wait .. he is prolly better than him .. *LOL*
Odell Beckham
Jordan Matthews
Deshaun Jackson
Dez Bryant
Brandin Cooks ... Michael Thomas
AJ Green
Steve Smith
Golden Tate
Doug Baldwin
Larry Fitzgerald ..

Am i at 15 yet? ...

Top 15 ... *LMAO* ...

Ya ... great measurables ..

How r his hands? ... not that catching the ball is a bog deal for a reciever or anything ... ...

U guys way OVERRATE him ...

HE STRUGGLES catching the ball ...
he struggles with route running against man coverage ...
he admittedly doesn't block well ...

Other than that ... he's clearly a keeper worth BIG BUCKS ....

*L* ...

Whoever signs him ... will end up dissapointed ...

We'll talk again in 3 or 4 years ...

thank u for your time today ...

Right now Pryor is #28 in receiving yards with 913.

Your point?

Pryor is not one of the best wide receivers in the league. He is a quality player. With that said, he is going to be a free agent and that means he is more expensive. Also, this was his first year ever playing the position, so I think it is likely that he gets better.

Here is a list of every wide receiver contract:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/wide-receiver/

Pryor should be getting $15 million to $20 million guaranteed. If he gets more than that then it is an overpay.

My point was backing you up. But whatever, I know you're in defense mode so I'll leave you alone.

Yea for swapping positions and dealing with our QB situation, 913 isn't all that bad. I think he's over 1,000 in all purpose yards as well.

You think he could develop into a true #1?

He could, but I don't think it is likely. Even if he doesn't he still probably deserves a contract similar to Doug Baldwin, Pierre Garcon (who is also a free agent), Allen Hurns, Marvin Jones, Eric Decker, etc. The problem is that he will get more money than those guys on the open market.

He's better than both Adams and Cobb, as well as some of the other guys on your list.

It freaking kills me that our fans don't want to keep our better players.

Who knows..........maybe y'all really do enjoy talking about the draft than playoff games?

I think most people would love to keep him.


The question has always been at what cost?

I would franchise tag him, but I'm worried that another year of instability at the quarterback position would once again have us questioning whether TP could be great or not.

I'd love to give him a long term contract, but what if he's asking for dez Bryant kind of money?

Ideally you would sign one of Pryor or Collins and franchise the other, but I have a feeling both are going to hit free agency (which means we will likely lose both).

Defensive .. *L* ... i'm a "a good offense is the best defense kind of guy" ..

I asked a question ... thats what i do when i want more info ... your post was a little vague and could be interpreted many ways ... so being the drunk that i am, i figured i'd ask for clarification before diving into my drunken rant ... *L* ...

Dude .. i asked a question cause i wasn't sure what u meant ...

Feel free to answer if u like ..

I'll go ahead and answer your question to the other dude ...

I think he could develop into a low end 1 or high end 2 ... problem is he's going to command alot more than he's currently worth on the open market .... if we can front load the contract and have the bulk of it count against this year that would be a good thing in case he don't pan out ... wonder when that would have to be done by to count towards this year ... anyone know? ...

his cieling is limited by his speed .. he's not as fast as most make him out to be .. what he does have is a good burst while running ... he's also a gifted athelete and all ready high points the ball better than some of the all time greats ...

God .. we had a reciever here that couldn't adjust to a ball in the air at all .. i remember commenting more than once that when the ball was in the air it seemed he'd run away from it .. *L* .. i wanna say it was Quincy ... anyone remember who it was? ..

Anyhow ...

He needs to improve his route running against man coverage ..
he needs to improve his hands and catch the damm ball ...
he needs to improve as a blocker ...

I think he works extremely hard .. LOVE that about him ... then there's his TEMPER ... he has a bad temper .. it will hurt his team .. watch and see ...

I would not pay him what he's going to command and there's a team out there that will .. so if i were running the show .. he'd be gone ... i've said this for the last 2 months ..

I can't wait to see how this plays out ...

Not that fast? The guy is like Gordon in that he looks slower than he really is because he glides.

He ran a 4.32 in college. That is pretty fast. LOL

J/c...

Pryor was a surprise...we cut him just prior to the start of the season...we did sign him back a bit later. But 31 teams had a shot at him. His growth was good. The key is will he still grow then his upside is Gordon without the drugs.

But we cannot overpay either there is a fine line in describing his worth. Recognizing his agent most definitely he will be going to FA to test the market or possibly that can be done in the new pre FA talks with other teams.

For me the guy we have to keep here is Collins...I want Pryor here but if he is asking top 5-10 WR contract it would be hard to give that much.

jmho - time will tell.

There's times when I really wish TP would just keep his mouth shut.

But honestly.....whatever. It comes with the territory of diva WR's on a normal basis in this league.

And hey, at least the guy wants to win. While his mouth might be annoying, his fire is something I wish the 52 other guys displayed. Maybe we'd be somewhere.

I dunno if I agree with the speed comment. The dude glides like Gordon, bro. He looks like he isn't even trying, yet you watch defenders run like they are being chased by the cops trying to catch the guy. It just looks effortless.

I agree with your improvements. One thing I'll add more specifically is that when running sideline to sideline, he tends to run a bit backwards on routes. Just kinda drifts behind the first down marker. But that comes with experience so it's all good.

I could care less what his 40 time was in shorts on a track .. when we start playing football in shorts let me know ... *LOL* ....

I watched all our games ... funny how he only beat DB's 2 maybe 3 times all year ... every other time they were basically running stride for stride or out in front of him .. *shrugs* ...

To each his own Vers ...

If we pay him top 10 money ... you can as happy as u like ... i won't be ... *L* ...

Some guys look like they're running like cheetahs, but get caught.

Some guys look like they're loafing, but pull away from defenders.

I put Gordon and Pryor in the latter category.

4.3 speed vs. 4.6 speed. Not a huge difference. Not on a football field.

I watch the games, too.

I know he is fast.

Sorry that I provided a fact for you instead of assuming you would just take my word for it.

Actually receivers cut their pants so that there are no knee pads and usually don't where thigh pads...so out of any position in football...they are close to Shorts...lol

I only wish the Browns had some available cap space so they could afford to overpay a good player by little bit and not worry about it. If they did, they could sign Pryor and franchise tag Collins.

I had him on a fantasy team ... he hardly ever got behind anyone .. so he's not fast .. *L* ..

Love his competitiveness and the fact he wants to win .. love how after games hes peed off .. thats what i want from all my players ......

he needs to curve the temper ... lots of guys want to win as much as he does ... they just don't act like 2 year olds when there not winning ... especially when it comes to his teammates .. i think u saw the ramifications of that with the comments from Hartline .. i would guess he has never been real popular amongst his teammates ... but I could be wrong on that one ..

U said Diva WR ... i think Pryor is simply a Diva ... i think he's been a spoiled brat since his HS days and he has a brain .... i think that he has just used every situation and everyone he comes in contact with for his own personal gratification ...

I think whoever signs him will end up dissapointed when its all said and done ...

J/C

To me and many others, he's basically a rookie WR. If we had gotten the numbers from our top rookie WR this year that we got from Pryor, we'd be saying we really hit on that pick. The tough part is do we pay Pryor what he and his agents are sure to want with the hope that his development continues? I think in this case we need to. He's someone that other teams have had to game-plan for, and we haven't had many like that recently.

As others have mentioned, it would be so nice to sign either Pryor or Collins so the franchise/transition tag would be available for the other. I'd much rather franchise Collins, if necessary, but having both next season is a win for a team starving for wins.

By the way, sorry for the "we" this or "we" that. I hate when I do that - as though I'm part of the team! Once I started I didn't want to go back and correct myself!

I recall seeing him have a defender beaten once for sure .. maybe twice ..

I also don't re-call him ever pulling away from a defender ..

So you'll have to excuse me if i'm not on the same page as u guys ...

Not gonna keep saying the same thing ... so i'll be moving on ...

Me and pretty much the rest of the board will have to just disagree on this one ... *L* ...

I'd offer him 8 mill per year with incentives to be able to reach 15 mil per year. If he can play like he thinks he can then he will get paid like he thinks he should.

diam...TIME OUT...I've said nothing about how much he is worth of what the Browns should offer him.

Let's see if our front office can get creative and lock him up with a contract that protects the Browns if he busts yet pays the man if he studs out.

A contract based on incentives is what I would want to sign Pryor to.

4 drops btw. Half your list has more

Looks slow here:




And here:



And here is a breakdown of his running style:



Just admit you are wrong. Don't be a Vambo.

Personal attacks and starting arguments is your style. How pathetic!

All considered, I keep Collins first. That is my #1 target.


He can be a legit pass rusher and all around player. It's harder to find those guys then it to find a top 30 receiver.

The quickest and surest way to improve the team is to harden the D. Keep the game close on that end first. Right now, we have to score 30 to win.

We have the resources to keep both players. Use them. We need both of them to help build this team.

We really don't. I hope we trade down in the draft and when it finally comes time for our pick? Trade down again!

Yeah I would agree with that. Money aside , and I don't care much about that - I'd rather keep Collins than TP. But if we do that we have to address the WR spot if Pryor leaves.

So if Pryor ends up taking a deal from another team that isn't incentive based and does overpay him, will the narrative streak of not being able to keep our own still reside on your posts? I mean, that's kinda what it boils down to now, right? You've said the Browns need to keep Pryor. So what if they can't get something done and he ends up getting a deal that is more guaranteed money-based (like almost all of them) compared to an incentives-based deal? Would you still blame the FO?

I hold out hope that the FO and Pryor will come to an agreement. I truly feel that way. But if it doesn't and Pryor gets a crap ton of money, does the FO get the blame similar to the Benjamin and Gipson contracts at their respective positions? Because I'm thinking SD and JAX may be having second thoughts. ...And I'm someone who wanted Benji back at the right price. How about that Buster Skrine deal? (not this FO but it goes with my point about people getting pissed about certain Bronws' FA deals)

Again (and this part isn't directed at you mac) but just because the FO has money doesn't mean they should spend it wildly. Just because Pryor is an asset to this team doesn't mean we need to pay him #1 WR money. His production, his consistency, his time playing the actual position doesn't warrant it, IMO. If someone wants to overpay for him, it'll suck, but that's how it goes sometimes.

the spin to defend the FO is already underway LOL

When healthy, Bitonio is one of the best guards in the NFL. I'm pretty sure the team knows it and he'll be signed. I'm not too worried about that. Kirksey has been one of the most consistent, productive defensive players we've had- both in coverage, stopping the run, and getting after the QB. He's becoming a very dynamic LB. He'll get paid either here or elsewhere. Even last year, playing behind Robertson, he showed flashes of what he could do as a starting LB. To think some people said he was nothing but a special teams player....LOL.

So that's why I think they're worth more. I think they provide more value at their respective positions, have done it more than Pryor, and think that's where more guaranteed money should go.

Collins
Bitonio
Kirksey
Pryor
Crowell

That's my priority list as of right now. Feel free to disagree.

Again....another garbage post.

I've ALWAYS had this point of view about every FO and every free agent. I'm probably the biggest Heckert apologist on this board and I didn't want to sign Skrine as a top CB. I wanted Benji to stay but not at the contract he eventually received. Same thing goes with Gipson. We've always been at the top of the cap space game since 2010 and my views on players and how we treat them (based on my opinion on their value) in FA has never wavered. Pryor is not different. I want him to stay but don't want to overpay for him in any significant way.

Don't come on here with that BS. Typical Vers (copyrighted).

We need a QB.

Agreed. I fully expect we have a salary structure designed for long-term sustainability. I don't believe we are cheap, rather that we are good planners...

I am not sating I don't want to keep TP, I am saying that Collins would be my first order of business.

If I am going to have to overpay and just throw a ton at a player, I would rather it be at Collins, so get him nailed down, then work on Pryor.

I really want to keep Collins. He will see more impact plays with every down than TP.
I was impressed earlier in the season. Keeping him might well be a Mack replay. If he wants to be here, he can make that happen; he also can make an exit if it is a ridiculous payday. He needs to be talking soon, but TP at HIS price? Not sure he has proven he is worth it to me. Given the parade throwing at him, his production has been good, not great. But we also seemed to be forcing his targets in some games. He is developing some bad habits like pushing off regularly and seems to have some drops issues.

Not superstar, not yet anyhow. I prioritize Collins first. Then negotiate with TP's ego.
Get something for him if he gets cute.

j/c:

People are saying we shouldn't trade for Jimmy G because Belichick must not think highly of him and that he wants to fleece us. Yet, those same people want to franchise a player that Belichick almost gave away.

Weird.

Again, the spin is on. Defend the FO at all costs and pretend you are being logical.

I was all for re-signing TP in early November ... but now? Not so sure. He really regressed the last 6 weeks.

Maybe teams figured him out. Maybe the QB play is the reason. I'm not sure.

So, people say that a guys like Michael Thomas and Shepard wouldn't be playing well here because the supporting cast sucks so much, but now it is Pryor's fault that he has "regressed" the last few games?

How many WRs could actually thrive w/the talent that is on this offense? How many could put up the numbers that TP has put up?
How many WRs have his ceiling?
How many WRs grew that much in one year?

And you guys wanna let him go? LMAO.........the spin is on. Defend the FO no matter what!

do you put his QB situation into the equation at all? Where would he be with a Tom Brady as his QB? or Manning or Rogers, or Prescott or,,, shall I continue?

I haven't said anything about Jimmy G. I was simply saying I would sign Collins first.

I put j/c at the top of my post.

It means "just clicking" on your post and not necessarily directed to you.

What "people" are saying this? I think the overwhelming tone is that dawgs on this board want him to stay.... but at the right price.

No, never even thought about that .... thanks for bringing it up, not sure what i would do without U .. whatever he wants ... lets just pay it ... ..

Some of us aren't DOLTS ..



U should never even start much less continue .. *LOL* ..

Look man .. someone brought up his drop #'s ... said he had 4 ... he had that many in the last two games ... and he dropped at least 1 in the 3 or 4 games prior to those two ... no clue where dude got the 4 drops number from but its a JOKE at best ...

Vers can show all the film he wants about how fast Pryor is ... all i know is it DIDN'T TRANSLATE TO PLAYING WR THIS YEAR FOR THE BROWNS ... he beat db's once or twice deep all year long ... he outran NO ONE this year with or without the ball .. maybe once .. the video against Pitt wouldn't play for me ... so i couldn't see if he actually outran anyone .. if he did .. GREAT ... ONE TIME ALL YEAR with the ball on his hands ... WOOOHOOOO ...

Gimme a break ... maybe next year if he learns how to beat press or feels more comfie in playing WR that speed will translate .. but so far .. NADA ... ZILCH on the speed end ...

Bottom line .... he's going to command top 10 WR money and we have NO CLUE weather he will ever be worth it ... he has a shot ... but he's FAR FROM A PROVEN COMMODITY ... he is still at the beginning stages of learning how to play WR much less how to play it in the NFL ..

Everyone else would rather re-sign Collins over TP .. if i had to pick one .. it would be TP cause of his ATTITUDE ... he's a "me" guy in that he acts like a two year old when things aren't going well .. collins is a "me" guy in the worst possible way ... he proved top Billicheck he is going to do what he wants regardless of what the D scheme calls for him to do ..

Anotherwords he says ... Heck with my responsibilities, I'm gonna do what I WANT ...

Sorry ... i could care less how good he is .. and he is AN ATHELETIC FREAK ... but i don't want to build around that attitude ... it HARLY EVER ends well ..

But thats just me ...

j/c



I don't know if you miss the point so often because you don't comprehend it...or refuse to actually read what other people post...or because you purposely leave out half of the facts so you can make some ridiculous comment...in any event, it ends up showing just how much you missed the point.

I don't think there is ONE person on this board that wants to just let Pryor walk...not ONE...it's all about what it would take to sign him. It's very simple to most everyone on this board.

j/c...Pryor definitely has speed he doesn't have that dart like quickness like Hawkins but what long WR does?

Keep in mind McCown and Kessler under threw most of those long passes where Pryor had to slow down and fight for. RG3 can put that ball away - he threw one 70 yards. Pryor has to get back to running all out as he got use to the other QBs.

It all comes down how much to pay him...I'm afraid his agent is going to make Pryor believe that he is worth to be the TOP PAID WR in the NFL. So surely he is going to test the waters.

I've never thought WRs are worth that much to win but it would be nice to keep him here as we were the ones who converted him to WR. I think he will test the market but come back here as we will make the best offer.

btw...COLLINS IS A STUD. If you cannot see that Vers (won't side door you not a chest bumping contest) I'm not sure what you are looking at.

Obviously BB n Collins bumped heads - BB has earned his Tyrant moniker. Not many others could pull it off. Obviously it was a Do It my was or the highway...and he got the Highway.

Us instead of having him fit our system we seem to be willing to fit our system around what he can do.
I think a very very important piece to building a stud Defense. Much more important than a WR for our future

jmho

Imagine if I would have said that.

Some posters can get away with anything on these boards.

Instead of bullying try listening.

It is not the fault of others that you don't want to be educated.

Found this list:

http://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/

If we could slot Pryor into that lost around the Maclin / Sanders contracts at $11 mill a year based on incentives that mean he has to maintain a minimum of this year's performance. 4 year contract, option for a 5th. Between $17-22 guaranteed. . . . I find it hard to see how he could truly complain.

While I think some of the struggles the last few games have been due to the bad play by the Browns - he's also dropped balls which is all him .... but as a WR he is still so new to the position he does have a ton of potential to continue to improve if he has the desire and work ethic. . . . to me he's tremendously gifted physically and he gets his hands on the ball in 50-50 situations. I've seen the same thing with the smaller Coleman - seems like he has a knack for timing his jump and beating the defender to the ball. I also think for a big man he manages to get short area separation - which is more important than being simply a burner.

You would have had Memphis, Willie, 888, and Vambo [provided you said it about me or mac] all "like" the post. LOL

Guys like you need to stick together. It's your only chance.

j/c

I keep hearing "at the right price". Let's look at that for a moment shall we?

I hope people understand we have no QB. Now if you were a WR, would you accept an incentive laden contract from a team that had nothing at the QB position? Now if it were a team with a Tom Brady or an Aaron Rodgers that would be an entirely different thing. But the fact we have no QB could severely limit a WR's production. Logic dictates a WR would not be open to such a contract here.

As it stands, we have no real O or D on this team. At seasons end, we will have won either one or two games. The players in this league consider us losers as the rightfully should. The fact is, the Browns are not a desirable landing spot.

So the fact is, to keep our players or sign FA's, we will overpay or they will leave. If this FO sits in their ivory tower and thinks all things are equal, they are missing the point.

Missed it....sorry buddy.

But I wouldn't have been able to pull off pretending to be a victim while still being in full pit bull mode and attacking everyone else on the board like you do so well.

Again, I am sorry that you don't want to be educated. Most of us put the JR High School shot-put coach on a pedestal because of all the wisdom that you give that would take eons for the rest of us to acquire, such as "grunt and throw it idiot!". We all talk about Buddah and Ghandi saying such things all of the time, despite their deficiencies in sports, but it doesn't give the same impact as a balding man with a "honk if you ate tacos today" t-shirt. You sir, are the master of your own domain which extends far beyond Mrs Rogers rose bushes despite her obvious misguided objections and the recent court order that prevents your free movement to those reaches of your realm.

Please ignore a peon such as myself objecting to your spewing of what you normally spew. I know not of pretending of knowing what I do not know. You have that mastered that as long as nobody asks questions.

Some will call it the coming of the Messiah as you proceed well past Mrs Roger's rose bushes and declare the the definitive direction for the Cleveland Browns next year. Others will probably call the cops. No matter what we call it though, we will all bow, because that is what you want and we all exist to serve you. It's all about you here on Dawgtalkers and it's the only reason that the rest of us exist. Actually, we all really existed here to agree with Mac but he tried to make us follow the path of the Steelers and that is the dark side of the force young Skywalker. When Mac failed us, we all had to gravitate to you.

So now you have this huge responsibility because we are all counting on you to lead us.

Get educated.

Just so you know, as soon as I saw you quoted me, I didn't even bother to read the rest of your drivel.

It's getting to the point, I can't hardly read any of this crap on this forum.

May I ask what the hell are you talking about? Where did I bash Collins?

People are saying we shouldn't trade for Jimmy G because Belichick must not think highly of him and that he wants to fleece us. Yet, those same people want to franchise a player that Belichick almost gave away.

I must of misinterpreted...I also didn't look any further back but possibly there was more???

I took this as a Bash on Collins...possibly it was instead a bash on posters???

I just didn't wish to talk behind your back (so to speak) that is why I named you. Again its a message board. I cannot read your mind so sometimes it isn't what it seems to be.

Happy New Year all... my resolution here is to be as Kumbaya with each poster so I'm burying all Hatchets...which does include you Vers.

I wasn't bashing Collins. My point was that why are people saying we shouldn't trade for Jimmy G because Belichick will fleece us, but they liked the Collins' trade.

Hmmmmm.........I guess that can still be misinterpreted. Let me put it this way......I think the argument of not trading for Jimmy G because of Belichick is lame. I think Jimmy G is a good qb and he would really help the Browns.

Got it...

I think so too.

I guess the question is what kind of compensation is involved?

If it is a 3rd rounder, I consider that a safe area. If he doesn't work out, we aren't out that much. 2nd rounder, the risk increases.

The factor that helps keep the compensation down is his contract expires after this season. The risk in that is we would have to get him signed to a new contract. How do you value that with little video to watch?

I was speaking to the fact that certain posters are saying you should never make a deal w/Belichick.

Simple. No new contract YET.

Play the year THEN we determine if he's worth 15-20M a year. Tag him if need be.

We have the picks just for this.

To me it's Garoppolo or Trubisky or NOTHING at QB this year.

Just say NO to Watson's innacurate ass.

You create more drama on this board than a gaggle of eighth grade cheerleaders on a field trip.

You make an excellent point on the likelihood of an incentive-laden contract for Pryor...I really hadn't thought about that but it's spot on.

If Pryor were in the upcoming draft class, where would he be slotted and what kind of contract goes at that spot? Could be another way to look at it.

Pryor was more interested in no being hurt today. He cruised most of the day.

You are right - but having said that, the guy has 1000 yards on a terrible team.

If Pryor thinks the team is going to improve - he's got as much chance or better to have a good year here. He's unlikely to see another 6 QB's (I guess 5 - he's one of the six) throwing the rock. . . . Injuries happen but 2 starting guards and your center? Unlikely.

I think rather than say the contract has to be incentive laden - I think it would be fair to say give him a very, very good base - but with the opportunity to earn top 10 WR money based on hitting similar numbers to this year. . . . . Looking at that list of WR's - there are at least 12 other WR's I would take ahead of Pryor, no brainer picks .... But you are right, it can't simply be performance based. Dude has earned the opportunity to get paid like a legit WR.

What?

He played very well. The guy has been playing w/an injury. He made a bunch of plays in a meaningless game.

Your take was completely unfair.

I didn't see it as a meaningless game. It was against the Steelers.

He played well. Period.

He also has a hand injury .... not that that matters to a WR.

Either way, I hope he signs with us. Don't misunderstand.

I hope he signs with us as well.

If we are the team who is going to reach on Watson in the draft, then retaining Pryor has to be a priority. And finding some other big WRs as well.

It seems to me that McPick's game plan is to throw it up for grabs. When you are in college and throwing it to NFL-caliber players, that can work to a degree. Granted, he is flirting with a 2-1 TD to INT ratio which is not very promising in college, especially when he is on a team that is more talented than just about everyone he faces. But if that is how he rolls, then his next team better have the WRs built for that. Because in the NFL, there is nothing but NFL-caliber defenses.

I would make Pryor priority NUMBER ONE now. We really need to resign him, pay him what he's worth and move on.

And this is the entire discussion about Pryor. Not that people don't want him, just finding his worth in terms of a contract.

What's so hard? He is going to test the FA market. See what he is offered and offer a bit more.

I prefer we sign him before then. The "start" of FA in March is a lie. All teams are talking with agents right now about players they're not supposed to be talking to.

Plus if Pryor gets big time #1 WR money by the time FA starts, I personally don't offer him 'a bit more". That's where the discussion of posters' perceived value comes into play.

I get that Pryor likes Hue, but why would any player really want to play in Cleveland when the team stinks, is unstable, and has a poor reputation of how they treat their players?

The Browns are in a position where they have to pay more.

I don't understand how you can say this yet blame this FO for not being able to keep last year's free agents. Like last year was the first time any of those guys played on a bad Cleveland Browns team or weren't aware of the years of crap football.



Disagree. In FA, every team is in a position where they have to pay more. Some teams just choose not to go on crazy spending sprees.

And some teams are cheap.

OK, I agree with the first part of this first paragraph, but the last sentence simply isn't true. This franchise, since Haslem has taken over, has taken very good care of the players ON THE ROSTER. Now, you can throw in the handling of free agency with Mack and Schwartz, but I blame that on inexperience. I expect this off season to go a little better. I don't think they will let a situation like they had with Schwartz happen ever again.

As for how the players on the roster are treated though, it is said by every player that is asked, the Browns have one of the best facilities in the NFL, along with amenities like, on staff chef and entertainment in the building. These seem like little things, but when you come from teams that don't have it, it sheds a brighter light on the Browns.

Once players get to Cleveland, they realize very fast everything the city has to offer. Cleveland, the city, has some of the finest dining options in the country, as well as nightlife venues, like the casino and other top notch sports teams.

I don't think it would be nearly as hard as you all think to "lure" a free agent here. All they would need is Hue and Joe Thomas in a room for about 2 hours, then shower them with the Cleveland scene.

This team is determined to move forward, who ever is a part of the success will go down as legends in this city...that isn't lost on guys like Joe Thomas and he can impress that on players they are courting.

The Browns HAVE to keep him. Their need for playmakers combined with the fact of Pryor's astounding performance considering how raw he is so soon after changing positions makes him a definite priority to retain. He looks to be a budding star and they cannot afford to let guys like that walk when they have the chance to keep them.

Ask D. Bryant, K. Williams, D. Whitmore, K. Dansby, D. Bess, M. Schwartz, , etc how well they treat their players.

I don't think we've been one of them.....how about all those guaranteed deals to Dansby, Whitner, Bryant, Kruger, Bowe, T. Williams, an extension for Haden, Taylor's extension this year...Is that cheap?

How can you even argue that when it is a fact that the Browns always have the most--or among the most---room left on the cap?

Look, I really don't want to argue this w/you. You aren't objective. It's the same old spin every time w/you.

Did you not see the players I referenced that they signed in FA in guaranteed money and contract extensions? I'm happy to add them up for a total figure. It's not cheap. The better argument is the poor decision making FOs have made when its come to spending....particularly in FA.

And this year, and you know this, we have so much cap space because we started a complete rebuild and cut some of those FA signings that didn't pay off.

Oh, and we don't have a franchise QB, where most of team's cap money is going towards if they have one....We don't.

I agree, the loss of veteran leadership was more than just disappointing, but on that list, which guy other than Schwartz isn't past their prime and was ready to make this team a future contender?

Honestly, no one knows what happened with K'Waun Williams...He decided not to play, or even show up for practice, after the doctors passed him on his ankle injury. suspicious to say the least.

Bryant AGREED to reduce his salary this year, that tells me one thing..the Browns converted that money to a signing bonus. He didn't lose out on anything, imho, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to it.

Bess??Really, the criminal Devone Bess? That is who you want to list as a viable reason for player mistreatment?

As for Dansby (and I am assuming you meant) Whitner, they were over paid veterans to give the roster credibility, nothing more.

Do you honestly believe that this group of young guys would have benefited more by sitting on the bench because these two were still on the roster? Whitner was ridiculed on these very boards for his poor play in 2015...

Whitner gave way to Christian Kirksey to see the field more and he was one of the lone bright spots on defense in 2016...Where would he be if Dansby had been retained for another year?



I don't think ANY of these players were treated badly, with the exception of Schwartz. He had an offer that he simply wanted to validate and they pulled it out from under him when he came back to the table... I understand why they did it, but it cost this team dearly and now they have to use it as a learning lesson...there isn't any going back.

It's pretty simple, the teams that are always near the top in cap spending have a QB on the roster taking 12-15% of the total salary cap. Some teams have backups making more than our starters...to be honest though, our starters are backups...so, it makes sense.

I know they have been frugal, and I fully expect that to change with Terrell Pryor being their first spending on in house free agents to be. I also expect them to tag Collins...if those two things happen, would you be happier with their spending habits?

And they didn't mind taking all the money at the time. I think we treat our Players more than fair. It is a business after all and our club is really not much different than any other in that respect.

I just heard reported that Pryor has cleaned out his locker and split.

https://twitter.com/NateUlrichABJ/status/815957213940477955

Tulsa, it's the day after the season is over...everyone is cleaning their lockers out and splitting...

He is getting surgery on Wednesday, so he doesn't have time to wait around.

Hue should run a full slate of practice this week, just for the hell of it.

I love how you guys act like I am the one talking out of my butt. I just bet the word around the league is that Cleveland is the place to go to be treated right. LMAO........y'all kill me.

Not interested in arguing w/guys who are so biased. All I know is that the Browns are going to have to overpay to keep free agents or attract free agents.

Then again, at this point in time..........ownership and the new FO hasn't given any evidence of wanting either.

When Pryor caught the pass that put him over 1,000 yards he pointed at Hue. You could tell he was excited and he was gesturing Thank you to his coach. It was nice to see.

Why, or how, did he even know he was over 1000 yards?

It was the first play from scrimmage in the overtime. He was 3 yards shy at the end of regulation. Someone must have told him. He was emotionally excited when he caught that 8 yard gain to start the OT.

It was obvious he was thanking Hue.

That play was run for one reason only.

To get Pryor his 1,000.

Bet he was told if he didn't already know, I'd bet that stuff like that is talked about on the sideline in a nothing week 17 game.
If I were a baseball player I'd know my numbers. Doesn't mean it's selfish, or that a player should let it affect him when playing.

Browns notebook: Terrelle Pryor says he’s told agents he wants to stay in Cleveland: ‘I love this place’



By Nate Ulrich
Beacon Journal sports writer
January 2, 2017 - 01:23 PM
LINK

BEREA: Impending free-agent Terrelle Pryor struggles to harness his competitive fire at times, so finishing the 2016 season with a record of 1-15 can’t be easy for him to swallow.

Yet Pryor believes the Browns can reverse their fortunes under coach Hue Jackson, so he has told agents Drew and Jason Rosenhaus he would like to stay in Cleveland.
“Absolutely. I told them, and we’ve had a lot of conversations,” Pryor said Monday as players cleaned out their lockers and headed into their offseason breaks. “At the end of the day, as you guys know, football is a business, and [a new contract has] got to make sense for myself.

“I’d love to play for Coach Hue. I loved playing with him this year, no matter what. Despite the 1-15 record, I’m not worried about that. ... I love this place. I love Cleveland. I love the fans here. It’s amazing.”

Pryor’s faith in Jackson stems from their close relationship and his ability to motivate the players to continue to fight after they lost the first 14 games of the season.

“[Owner] Jimmy [Haslam] said, ‘We have the right guys in place in terms of coaches,’” said Pryor, who’s scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent on March 9. “That’s definitely the truth. Obviously, we need more players. I think we’re not far.”

But the Browns used six quarterbacks in 2016 and still haven’t solved the position.

“It’s something that I think my agents have to converse about with the team,” Pryor said. “But coming back here, I know Hue would have that situation handled, all the situations. Whatever holes that he thinks we have, I’m sure they’ll handle it, him and [head of football operations] Sashi [Brown].”

Pryor’s agents had preliminary contract extension talks with the Browns in the fall but shelved negotiations until after the season. Pryor said he expects the discussions to resume soon. The Browns could keep him without a long-term deal by placing their franchise tag on him.

No matter what happens with his contract situation, he’s on verge of receiving a huge payday.

In his first full season as a receiver, the former quarterback led the Browns with 77 catches for 1,007 yards and four touchdowns.

“Hopefully he’s back,” quarterback Robert Griffin III said. “We want him back.”

Some of Pryor’s critics doubted his transition would be a success.

“I can’t really worry about the naysayers or stuff like that,” he said. “So I think with that clear mind and that tunnel vision, that focus that you have to have, I think you can do anything if you’re focused and you’re together with your teammates and your teammates got your back and I’ve got their back. I think that’s special.”

Left tackle Joe Thomas lamented the Browns allowing key players to leave as free agents in the past and doesn’t want to see the same happen with Pryor.

“You sometimes hear fans say, ‘Well we were 1-15 with them, we can be 1-15 without them,’” Thomas said. “But if you want to be better than 1-15, you have to keep your good players. That’s just the way it goes. You can’t keep getting rid of good players and think you’re going to get better. Anybody with a brain can figure that out.”

Pryor, 27, will remain with the Browns for at least the next three to four weeks because he’ll undergo surgery on the torn ligament in his right middle finger Wednesday in Cleveland and wants to rehabilitate with guidance of the team’s medical staff. Pryor played with the injury for the final three games.

“I always point at Joe [Thomas] because I think he’s the ultimate teammate and the ultimate professional,” Pryor said. “The pain and stuff that he plays with and the injuries he plays with and he still continues to give his best foot forward and all the effort to be the best teammate he can be, I can go out there with some torn ligaments in my hand and try to tough it out. It’s special, and the type of guys we have in here, that’s the reason I wanted to finish strong with them.”

Nate Ulrich can be reached at nulrich@thebeaconjournal.com. Read the Browns blog at www.ohio.com/browns. Follow him on Twitter at www.twitter.com/NateUlrichABJ and on Facebook www.facebook.com/abj.sports.

Preach it, brother Joe!!!

But ... but ... that's not what I read on here, when it was good riddance to Mack and Schwartz. Joe T must be clueless.

Mack wasn't coming back no matter what we offered and Schwartz let his agent get greedy and then wanted our offer which yes we should have brought him back but I blame the agent more than our FO ... JMHO

JC

On the Browns letting go of young talented players to free agency who have succeeded elsewhere and that not being beneficial:

Brown: “Yeah, to the end that you develop players that go on and are successful elsewhere, you never love that. We have had players who have gone on to have success and some that haven’t. What we have to do is build a culture where guys want to stay here. That is the most important thing. I think we have done that this year, and we are tasked now with going out and making sure that we can sign some of our guys that are key for our future. We do have a number of young guys who will help us win games here so Hue does not have to go swim in that lake (laughter).”

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...a2-fb6acf90e8a9

Fair enough Pastor, but I was not commenting on our chances of bringing back Mack. I was commenting on the posters who said losing Mack and Schwartz was no big deal because we only won 3 games with them. That is completely different.

Losing Schwartz was stupid. Players and agents testing the market is part of the NFL. We pulled the offer to prove a point, and ended up with Cam at RT in this last game.

Very true Cap and I'm not one who thought losing Mack and Schwartz was a good thing ...

Didn't mean to imply that you were one of them. Apologies if you thought so.

jc

i wanted to point something out that's very interesting with regards to Crow.

first, he stays healthy. played all 16 games.

so he's got 198 carries this season for 952 yards. that's good for 4.8 yards per carry. his rushing yards is good for #15 in the league.

here's where it gets interesting. when compared to 1-14, they all have over 200 carries. the lowest amount is 205 by mark ingram.

Crow also has the least amount of attempts per game at 12.4.

digging deeper, he is #5 in runs over 20 yards with 8.

he's tied for #2 with run over 40 yards with 3.

and this is the part where i really like Crow. he absolutely shows up in division games.

2 games against baltimore, he has 27 carries, 156 yards with a 5.8 average.
2 games against Cincy, he has 22 carries, 176 yards with a whopping 8.0 average
2 games against Pittsburgh, he has 27 carries, 162 yards with a 6.0 average.


that tells me that:

A. he's good.
B. our O line isn't as bad in run blocking as some claimed, and
C. why in the hell didn't we commit to running the ball more?

Nice post.

The guy doesn't get enough respect from many of our posters.

#checkmate

CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT:

The plan was never to win this season and was more about evaluating the QB position. Not committing to the run allowed the franchise to see what they had in Kessler and RGIII by having them throw 30+ times per game while keeping Crow and Duke fresh.

The again, maybe Hue just gets pass happy.

I agree. I have been harping on it for a while. Another factor to look at.... He has improved each of his 3 years in the league.

Hue has a weapon he doesn't use to our advantage. Run the friggen football.


Oh...another thing. I know he fumbled last Sunday, but he has not fumbled very much in his career. In three seasons, 5 times, 3 in his rookie season, none last year and twice this season. That is good ball security.

I didn't

This is the thing that irritates me about most fans. If a guy isn't headed to the HOF, he's considered expendable. If said person makes one mistake, he's absolutely awful.

Crow is an above average NLF running back. He's part of the solution.

Like it or not, it's part of our microwave society. I want it, I want it now, and I don't want to pay for it. (or, I don't want to pay MUCH for it)

Thanks Man .... that was good ....

I hope he does "get him some" just as long as he remembers what he will get not just in this contract, but for the rest of the years of his life.

Spotrac has us at 107 million in cap space. I mean damn guys. How much cap space do some of you want? Do you just want to have an empty roster?

If we cut Tramon and RG3 it could give us around an additional 15 million. Who are these MVP caliber players you're afraid we won't be able to resign in 3-4 years?

Most of that is rollover, which I believe Heckert started doing. Banner also pushed us the right direction.

As poorly run we have been over the past several years, I am thankful that none of our front offices went nuts in free agency and killed our cap.

Cap hell was in the early 2000s. Teams are no longer in "cap hell." Not sure why some people are holding onto that viewpoint other than to excuse Haslam and the FO????

Predicting Cap Hell

Great teams always find a way to manage their cap space. Those teams in cap hell will just cut their dead weight.

Yes.

I'm greatful we've always won the cap space battle. That's the only thing we've ever done "right." We've made sure our greedy ass owner never had to spend money.

Yeah, the salary cap thing has become a joke. It's not like it was in the early 2000s. Teams that are up against it can easily rectify the problem. For example, Dallas parts ways w/Romo and they are out of trouble.

I just think that a lot of the guys who keep talking about salary cap are the same guys who make excuses for every dumb ass move the FO makes. They justify the Browns being cheap by bringing up the salary cap. It's a lame ass argument that has very little relevance in this era.

The Cowboys are 11 mil over. Getting rid of Romo just gets them close to even. They have a little more work to do than that.

http://www.spotrac.com/blog/a-potential-2017-cap-casualty-from-all-32-nfl-teams/

I just hope that the Browns keep their eyes out to sign some of that dead weight.

Justin Bethel, CB, Arizona Cardinals
2017 Cap Figure: $5.25M; $1.5M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $3.75M, $4.5M Post 6/1


Brooks Reed, DE/OLB, Atlanta Falcons
2017 Cap Figure: $5.04M; $2.82M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $2.22M, $3.16M Post 6/1


Elvis Dumervil, DE/OLB, Baltimore Ravens
2017 Cap Figure: $8.375M; $2.375M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $6M


Dan Carpenter, K, Buffalo Bills
2017 Cap Figure: $2.9375M; $537,500 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $2.4M, $250,000 roster bonus due on the 7th league day


Jonathan Stewart, RB, Carolina Panthers
2017 Cap Figure: $8.25M; $3.5M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $4.75M, $6.25M Post 6/1


Jay Cutler, QB, Chicago Bears
2017 Cap Figure: $16M; $2M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $14M, $15M Post 6/1


Rey Maualuga, LB, Cincinnati Bengals
2017 Cap Figure: $3.7M; $0 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $3.7M


Josh McCown, QB, Cleveland Browns
2017 Cap Figure: $5.04M; $666,667 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $4.375M, $750,000 roster bonus due on the 3rd league day


Tony Romo, QB, Dallas Cowboys
2017 Cap Figure: $24.7M; $19.6M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $5.1M, $14M Post 6/1


Donald Stephenson, OT, Denver Broncos
2017 Cap Figure: $5M; $2M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $3M, $4M Post 6/1)


Brandon Pettigrew, TE, Detroit Lions
2017 Cap Figure: $5.35M; $1M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $4.35M


Clay Matthews, LB, Green Bay Packers
2017 Cap Figure: $15.2M; $4.1M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $11.11M


Tony Bergstrom, OL, Houston Texans
2017 Cap Figure: $3.25M; $375,000 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $2.875M


Arthur Jones, DL, Indianapolis Colts
2017 Cap Figure: $7.35M; $2.2M in dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $5.15M, $6.25M Post 6/1


Sen’Derrick Marks, DL, Jacksonville Jaguars
2017 Cap Figure: $4.675M; $200,000 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $4.475M, $1M roster bonus due early March 2017


Jamaal Charles, RB, Kansas City Chiefs
2017 Cap Figure: $7M; $0 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $7M


Eugene Sims, DE, Los Angeles Rams
2017 Cap Figure: $3.25M; $750,000 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $2.5M, $500,000 roster bonus due the 5th league day


Mario Williams, DE, Miami Dolphins
2017 Cap Figure: $10.5M; $2M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $8.5M


Brian Robison, DE, Minnesota Vikings
2017 Cap Figure: $6.6M; $1M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $5.6M


Danny Amendola, WR, New England Patriots
2017 Cap Figure: $7.9M; $1.4M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $6.5M


Thomas Morstead, P, New Orleans Saints
2017 Cap Figure: $4.7M; $1.65M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $3.05M, $3.75M Post 6/1, $500,000 roster bonus due early March 2017


Victor Cruz, WR, New York Giants
2017 Cap Figure: $9.4M; $1.9M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $7.5M


Darrelle Revis, CB, New York Jets
2017 Cap Figure: $15,333,333; $6M dead cap
Savings to Release: $9,333,333 ($2M roster bonus due the 2nd league day)
Savings to Trade: $15,333,333 ($2M roster bonus due the 2nd league day)


Sebastian Janikowski, K, Oakland Raiders
2017 Cap Figure: $4.41M; $360,000 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $4.05M


Chase Daniel, QB, Philadelphia Eagles
2017 Cap Figure: $8M; $7M dead cap
Savings to Release: $1M ($2M Post 6/1)
Savings to Trade: $6M ($7M Post 6/1)


Arthur Moats, LB, Pittsburgh Steelers
2017 Cap Figure:$2,883,334; $633,333 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $2.25M


Stevie Johnson, WR, San Diego Chargers
2017 Cap Figure: $4.5M; $1M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $3.5M


Ahmad Brooks, OLB, San Francisco 49ers
2017 Cap Figure:$8,648,750; $848,750 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $7.8M


J’Marcus Webb, OL, Seattle Seahawks
2017 Cap Figure: $3.35M; $600,000 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $2.75M


Evan Smith, OL, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
2017 Cap Figure: $4.5M; $0 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $4.5M


Harry Douglas, WR, Tennessee Titans
2017 Cap Figure:$4,483,334; $733,334 dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $3.75M


Ricky Jean Francois, DE, Washington Redskins
2017 Cap Figure: $4M; $1M dead cap
Savings to Release or Trade: $3M

When you have money those guys are a little easier to sign.

Somebody should tell the Ravens that Cap Hell is just a myth because they have a lot of rebuilding to do and no money to do it with.

Awesome. And what is your point? Do you think they will suck next year or the year after or even the year after that because of the cap? LMAO

You don't have a freaking clue about how things are trending in the NFL, Barney.

Most recently, I can remember the Raiders having more dead money than money being spent on their players (or something similar to that). Also, Ndamukong Suh was one of the highest paid Lions last year (against the cap).

Good teams keep their most important players, but keeping a clean cap is still important because it just makes things a little easier.

Way to keep it classy vers.

See, a post like this, which goes against everything you preach about, is exactly why you catch heat.

You can't preach against it, then do it yourself and expect people to take you seriously.

By the way, nice football post.

Paying huge amounts of money to a mediocre quarterback will do that. It's the problem Washington is facing this off-season.

Also, remember when the Colts GM said that he couldn't build up the rest of the roster because Andrew Luck costs so much?

Remember our little talk about blow-back and making the first blow?

I think I have a little more of a clue than someone that relies on La Conforna for his football news.

There's no magic. Teams kick the can down the road for as long as they can until they have to blow it all up.

If they are a winning team, they can keep it up for a while until all their free agents start leaving for elsewhere.

If they are a losing team, they prolong their misery.

On March 11, 2015, the Miami Dolphins announced that they had signed Suh to a six-year, $114 million contract with $60 million guaranteed. -

Y'all can talk all you want about the cap, but it has become almost irrelevant. Teams might get close to he cap limit, but it's an easy fix and if you would take the time to research the topic of how easy it is to fix, you would understand what I am saying.

I think you guys are full of hot air and are only making this argument in some sort of defense of the FO, because I don't believe anyone is really that dumb to believe this salary cap hell anymore.

I know right.

(You just proved my point. Thank you.)

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/03/09/detroit-lions-salary-cap-suh/24638587/

People who dismiss the cap as being meaningless do so because they do not understand the cap.

No, people who overemphasize the cap do so because they do not understand the changes in the cap.

Weren't you the same guy who thought Denver would let Von Miller go using the same logic you are now?

Jesus guys it's really not important. What is important is according to that article it will be nearly impossible for the chiefs to resign Eric Berry....

He was. But they're team was hurt because they lost Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan. They were only going to be able to keep one of those guys (they also wanted to keep Osweiler).

One could argue that they lost those two (or three) players because they signed guys like T.J. Ward, Aqib Talib, and DeMarcus Ware in free agency (I am not saying they should not have signed those players).

These are a few related, but somewhat random thoughts:

Every move has consequences.

Last year the Ravens lost one of the best offensive linemen in the league (Kelechi Osmele) because their cap is a mess.

Most teams can/should/will re-sign their best players because it is easy to move money around in the NFL to create cap room.

Just because you have tons of cap space available doesn't mean you should sign a bunch of players, overpay players, etc. This is a process thing. Make the correct decision even when the situation doesn't necessarily require you to make the correct decision. Good process eventually leads to good results. I understand the argument that not spending money in free agency is bad process, I just don't agree with it.