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When Browns running back Duke Johnson didn’t show up to the first day of voluntary offseason work, it naturally fueled the talk that had already begun that he could be traded. It appears a trade is exactly what Johnson wants.

Mary Kay Cabot of cleveland.com reports that Johnson’s representatives have asked the Browns to trade him.

The Jets, Texans and Eagles are among the teams reportedly showing interest.

The Browns chose Johnson in the third round of the 2015 NFL draft. Less than a year ago, they signed him to a three-year, $15.6 million contract extension, and it appeared that he was in the Browns’ plans for the long run. But although he played all 16 games last season, he didn’t get a lot of involvement in the offense, carrying just 40 times for 201 yards and adding 47 catches for 429 yards. Johnson is a good receiver and could yield a draft pick in a trade with a team that wants a versatile running back. It appears his future will not be in Cleveland.

bye

Not a shock. It is best for his career if he is traded as ion as possible.

The writing is on the wall that he won't be needed in week 9. However, if something were to happen to Chubb, we need a solid backup until Hunt can return to the field (which is obvious).

The Browns like Hilliard. Nothing says we don't already have our back-up.

Backs are a dime a dozen. There will be plenty on cut lists and trade lists.

Not a surprise at all.

I have maintained from the day they signed Hunt that Duke would be gone.

Just business.

I Would Imagine He Will Get His Wish ...

I don't blame him. He's got one more shot at decent contract.

Duke isn't going to get the touches required here to get that (possibly last) pay day.

Hope the Browns are able to get a reasonable return for him.

I hope something decent happens for us. I will miss him.

This may stretch out a while. He has value and we won't give him away. It might not happen until just before the draft.

Worth anything at the draft?

Dorsey will let these GMs know from the get-go. "Offer me b.s. and you'll just watch him go to another team, I'll hold him til a draft day trade if I have to. No freebies, Buddy Boy".

Can't say I blame him.

I'll not say a bad word about Duke, he's a good player who put up with a lot of losing and didn't complain. He's a classy kid.

Any chance we can trade Duke and a late pick or two to move back into the first round of the draft to target a DE / S / CB we covet?

What sort of value do we all think he has now? Have we lost leverage now that he has requested a trade?

Duke is a much better zone runner than gap runner but he still averaged 5 yards a carry last year. Combine that with how good of a receiver he is out of the backfield and teams that need a change of pace back should be fighting to get to the front of the line. He's only making $1.8 mil so he won't break the bank either.

The NFL as a whole doesn't value RB's that much but they will value this one. A 4th rounder is what I'm hoping for at the low end with a hope for a 3rd rounder if two teams are trying to outbid each other.

We may have determined last year that we needed to replace Duke.

I like Duke, and this is just my speculation, but it makes sense to me.

Maybe Duke was complaining to Freddie, his position coach all year long, and it got old.


Duke did it the right way. He didn't go to the news media, but if Freddie really thought that Duke should get more reps, one would think that once Freddie was OC, Duke would have if Freddie felt he should.

Maybe a draft day deal? Our 2nd and Duke for a 1st rounder......probably not...Duke and a 3rd for a decent 2nd rounder....maybe....Duke straight up for a 3rd rounder....Maybe, again.


Dorsey seems to like trading for players over picks. Trading for players in the NFL was a rare thing back in the day.....not with John.

Draft is getting close. The schedule release is getting close....I like the month of April. Baseball is in gear, The Masters, solid NFL happenings, local outdoor events are starting to hit every weekend, and it is still cool enough to enjoy things. In another month or so it is basically going to hit 92-94 degrees or better every day for 4 months.

I am at the age where where I better not wish away any of my days, but I am really looking forward to heading to Cleveland 7 times to use my season tickets. Heck, I might hit every home game depending on the schedule, but as I get older, back to back weekends can become a drag.

I was hoping he'd ride it out this season, but I can't blame the guy.

Can someone confirm if we'd save money on cap if we didn't trade him until after June 1st? Feel like I've read that somewhere on the board.

might go to a team that needs a slot reciever... what he really wants to do anyway and he would be good at it...

J/C..

Duke was a light of hope the team didn't have with a Roster that didn't have a great supporting cast.

Duke was the first back in Browns history to post 500-plus receiving yards in his first two NFL seasons.

I have to give him a big thank you for the effort he gave.

Jordan Howard, who is a good running back, just got traded for a 2020 sixth round pick. So no.

I'd about guarantee that he is with another team by April 26th.

I'll predict we trade Duke and #189 (6th round) for Houston's #161 (5th round) - the equivalent of trading him for #200 overall a mid/late 6th rounder. Philly would be another great fit for him.

It's going to be tough to get much for Duke. Jordan Howard, who has averaged over a 1,000 yards a season in his first 3 seasons was traded for a 6th round draft choice that might escalate into a 5th. Duke has never come close to those numbers.

I'm hoping we trade Duke for another player. I think we would get more value by doing that rather than trading for a draft pick.

Good call.

Just found this proposal on nj.com. I'd do it, but would inquire with them about Daeshon Hall first.

Eagles get: RB Duke Johnson, Browns 2019 fifth-round pick (No. 170)

Browns get: RB Corey Clement, Eagles’ 2019 fifth-round pick (No. 163) and a 2020 seventh-round pick (via Buccaneers)

If all we can get for Duke Jonson is a 5th or 6th round pick, I'd rather the Browns just tell him he's here until they say he isn't. We need him until Kareem is active. Trade him at the deadline, or next off season. He has a role as a change of pace back / 3rd down back / punt returner, and possibly as our feature back if Chubb gets hurt while Hunt is suspended. Use him until we don't need him anymore. If he does his job, it will work out best for both the Browns and Duke.

That's the way I prefer it as well

I agree w/you, but it's tough having guys in the locker room who might end up being disruptive. I think Dorsey is really focused on getting everyone on the same page.

I really like Duke as a player and a person. However, when we were debating back and forth on whether we should trade him or not, I always brought up that he isn't going to like being 3rd string. That is not an insult. I get it. I played the damn position and no way would I be happy being 3rd freaking string.

Again, I hope we trade him for a player. Hopefully a defensive player like a safety or corner. Maybe even a LBer

What do you guys think of trading Duke to Dallas for Sean Lee? He's the odd man out w/those two studs they have at LBer. He gets injured too much, but he is an excellent LBer who can cover and is extremely intelligent.

Two teams trading their positional excess away. Makes sense to me. It's a lot better than a 7th round draft choice.

Sean Lee would fit Collin's spot pretty well if he could stay healthy. He's also from PA so he would be closer to home.

I heard that TB was interested in Duke a while back, maybe we could trade Duke for McCoy as well.

Sean Lee just restructured his contract to stay with Dallas.

Or he just restructured it to be traded.

Does that mean they won't trade him? I think Dallas makes some sense for Duke. They need a back-up for Zeke. I know Rod Smith was a FA, but I don't know if he is staying or not? They are going to kill Zeke and he needs some plays off.

With all of that said..........I don't think that trade will happen. LOL. I was just throwing it out there as an example of trading for a player rather than getting a 6th or 7th round draft choice who almost certainly won't make the team. I kind of like Dep's suggestion of McCoy as well........provided he would take a significant decrease in salary.

overated RB that caught alot of passes on checkdowns in a offense that was putrid.
hes really a dime a dozen RB.
not a end zone threat.
gets caught from behind alot
rarely makes tacklers miss in space

I agree with you, we could use a guy like Lee on our LB core...injuries have hurt him and now he is the odd man out.


I like Duke, think we are playing with the injury fire by depleting our depth, but think Lee would be a good trade given the circumstances.

Anything less than a 4th and I definitely hold him til the draft. I'm with Vers, trade him for a player.

I'm okay with trading Duke for a player when we're in the clear - or close to in the clear - with regards to having a feature back in Hunt's absence. I'm just not impressed with accumulating 5th or 6th round picks.

Neither am I.

Yes, folks ask me last year who would be a suprise to make the roster ... My answer was Hilliard.

We will be okay @ RB if we trade DJ.

I agree we need to get a player for player.

Not that it amounts to a hill of beans, but
Dallas fans are in love with adding DJ.

I'm in agreement here.

I'm a media-skeptic. I kind of wonder if this is coming from one of the "interested teams" trying to drop Duke's cost/value.

It kind of has that effect regardless of who it came from.

This might have made his value to us greater than the return we can now get.

Hopefully Dorsey sticks with his plan whatever it may have been.

He didn't show up today. I don't think this came from another team.

Yeah, I don't know. I was led to believe Duke wasn't at the "voluntary" stuff last year either. It could very well be true, I just don't put a ton of trust in PFT, and will wait to hear something from the horse's mouth so to speak.

I'm trying to be done reading into Dorsey's plans. I'll see what actions actually come along.

Or....

Duke is a good back and should not be dogged. It's just that we have Chubb and Hunt and if I were Duke, I would not want to be third string.

Agreed.

Pre June 1st we take on $2.25M in dead money, but save $800K against the cap for 2019. $1.5M in dead money and save $3.35M in 2020. $750K and $5.15M in 2021.

If we wait till after June 1st, $750K in dead money for 2019-2021 with $2.3M, $4.1M, and $5.15M in cap savings in those same years.

If everyone stays healthy. Then again, the Rams took C.J. Anderson off the scrap heap and he was better than Todd Gurley.

The bottom line is that running backs just aren't valuable in the NFL today.

heres one stat Warren Sharp left out.
only averages a TD every 41 touches for his career.
and if Dorsey tbought Duke was all.that why did he acquire a RB knowing he was going to be suspended a part
of the season?
Duke is a good reciever. but a difference maker no.

Because Hunt is a ridiculous value.

Yes, I'm sure being on the worst team with one of the worst offenses had no influence on that number.

The one negative i can say about Duke is ball security.

Agreed.

He was exciting to watch, but I was always ready to see that ball pop out at the end of a long run.

I understand trading Duke. We have two superior backs in the house. But, citing TDs is a dumb stat. He's not a short yardage back. Let's get real, here.

Duke is a very good change of pace back who can excel in passing situations. He is not the great every down back that some claim he is. He is not going to become a great WR that some claim he can be. However, he certainly isn't a piece of trash. He's a very good change of pace back and that is nothing to sneer at.

Furthermore, Duke's been a good soldier throughout it all. He doesn't deserve ridicule or insults.

Yes,
It is mostly short lived, even for the best of them.

Right now we have some good young talent, but RBs' can usually be found if your looking for depth.

It originally came from Mary Kay...Not that it will make it more believable to you.

I just said hes overrated.
when your on a offense that gives Ricardo Louis alot of playing time somebody has to catch checkdowns.
I just havent seen Duke grow or really get better at any one thing.
yeah he caught alot of passes in that 1 31 campiegns.
But if Duke Johnson is your best offensive threat. thats trouble.
Dorsey is merely upping the talent level on this team.

Get him traded asap. His value the day of the draft or after will tumble past his 6th round potential 2023 value he is worth today.

Not surprising. He's a good talent with low mileage for his years and he knows he only has a few years left before he's considered "old" for RBs... He wants to be somewhere that he can have a really good year or two in order to land a nice contract... He's been a stand-up guy since he got here, I wish him the best.

I always have a small pang of sadness when someone like Duke gets traded away. For the last two years, he was one of a few bright spots we had. The selfish sentimental me wants to see him take this ride, since he more than earned it.

However, I also want to see him get opportunities that staying here simply wouldn't provide. I respect his desire to go somewhere that will use him more. He deserves to see the field and make plays.


.02

I agree except my feeling is that once a player starts asking for a trade, they are a distraction in the clubhouse.

We need to move him.

Backs like Chubb and Barkley aren't a dime a dozen....

Backs like Johnston are at least $.50 cents a dozen...LOL

Duke and our 2nd round pick would not get us into the 1st round.

j/c

I'd turn it over to Duke's agent. Tell him he can seek a trade but it's going to have to be a good one. Let him do the work. If he's not successful, we have Duke under contract for the next three years, so we don't have to let him go for nothing.

Considering our front office has already said that there really are only 15 players with a first round grade and that we already traded out of the first round, I highly, highly doubt that moving back into the first round is on the minds of our brass.

not a surprise. he'll be traded for sure. Probably a 6th round pick in 2020 is my guess

I'd hate to see him leave.. But frankly, it might be best for both he and the team.

He was the best player on a very bad team. I'd like to keep him as a weapon, but understand he wants a chance to start. I just don't think he is going to get it.

I don't think it's even about starting. I think it's more about his overall usage, or lack thereof.

Duke absolutely worthless in a trade since Philly got Howard for a 6th in 2020. If I'm dorsey I'm telling his reps to pound salt if he wants to pout. he's under contract for 3 more years and you never know when you'll need that RB depth

you'd like to .. but do we want to eat that salary and have a cancer like that (if he's REALLY that disgruntled?)

Johnson is such a great player, but we don't use him properly.

Saying we somehow have more talent now and we don't need Duke Johnson anymore is absurd.

Duke Johnson is the only RB on this roster that has proven he can actually do his job, and has done that job at a high level.

since 2015 Duke Johnson is:

6.5 yards per touch is 3rd best in the NFL among RB
He has held a top 3 spot in receptions (235) and yards (2,170) among NFL RB
his 235 receptions is the most every by a Cleveland Brown in their 1st 4 seasons.

Yet somehow he isn't good enough for us? Are you ******** joking!?

Stuff right here! this is why we have sucked for so long.

the New England Patriots roster is FULL of role player guys like Johnson, guys that do their damn job, and do it at a high level, its not flashy, its not pretty, but it wins.

I bet Bellichik is interested already. Johnson fits perfectly into that versatile role Bellichik looks for in a player. Johnson can run average, above average receiver, above average blocker, he fits all the checks.

I wouldn't be a bit suprised Johnson ends up in New England. His contract is pretty cheap, a 4th or a 5th should get the deal done...yup...he will catch 100 passes from Brady next year,yet he isn't good enough to play for us lol

I can already see Dorsey imploding...that safety Murray from the Chiefs is god awful, that guy is worse than Corey Fuller was, that guys name should be "toast" thats how bad that guy is. Kindred is an upgrade over Murray, the Browns got hosed on that trade hard.

I won't be a bit surprised if we are a 4-5 win team next year...we look decent on paper, but pulling back the paper we find the book is pretty thin.

Were going in with a guy who has never even been a coordinator till a few games last year as our Head Coach, with a QB while looked decent as a rookie still has a lot to prove, a weaker OL, potential with more distractions with OBJ and Hunt...this could very easily blow up in our face big time.

part me thinks our turn around last year was more because of Greg Willams and his former head coach experience and knowing how to manage things at a macro-level more than anything else. Willams leared a lot from his time in Buffalo and from Jeff Fischer...Kitchens was just along for the ride, and only got hired due to the "young offensive mind" nonsense fad that is going on the NFL...how well did that "young offensive mind" in Rams land do against an actual coach in the Super Bowl? Bellichik took him to school and put on a clinic...so much for the "young offensive minded head coach" crap...Bellichik dispelled that real quick... but we will of course try it, just like Cinci is.

I hope we win, but im not liking the vibe im feeling...Dorsey puts me in the mind of a control freak....he doesn't want anyone questioning him, and he surronds himself with yes men...everything has to be his idea and on his terms....things like this usually don't end well...

So Chubb hasn't proven he can do his job... And Hunt hasn't proven he can do his job? (Hunt can do that job, he just needs to get his head right)

I like Duke,, no reason not to. But let's face it, he wasn't being used much..I'm sure he wants to play more and be more involved..Can't say I blame him really. Wish there was a way, but once Hunts comes in, what do you do with Duke?

You never seem to get it.

Hard to even respond logically. I won't bother other than to say I have never seen a guy so consistently wrong.

My, what a- 'refreshing' take.

I could see Duke flourishing in NE, for sure. The rest of your post? Well, I'll say this for it- it certainly is unconventional.

Love how I'm seeing you do you.

Hi,, have you met me yet,, I'm wrong so often that in my family, it's a running joke....

J/C

It benefits us to trade him this year. He has more value this year, than he would next year. His salary almost doubles I believe, and with Chubb and Hunt for half a season, his numbers will be pooh anyway.

If you don't wear orange and brown, you don't matter. Duke don't wanna wear orange and brown anymore - bye Felicia.

Sure, because All-Pro former leading rusher in Hunt, and a rookie who rushed for 996 yards in Basically 12 games, hasn't proved anything. SMH, every post you make is....questionable.

I highly believe you are just a troll, and I am surprised that the board allows you to continue on.

Speaking only for myself, I appreciate the board's generosity. I mean, really- is there any other poster who can so effectively galvanize the board into a single, unified collective?

Besides.... it's a blast to see all the Dawgs race to be the first rebuttal on the boards.

Duke is certainly a talent. But since he's been drafted he's never been seen as a back up to fill a starting role. Not by any HC or FO that's been here since he was drafted. When the Crow left there was an opportunity to put Duke in the lead role. Instead we signed Hyde. Once Hyde was here we drafted Chubb. Now with Chubb on the roster we signed Hunt. So looking at the established patter, if Chubb went down before Hunt was available, Duke wouldn't be the candidate that fills the starting RB role.

There was always someone brought in to make Duke a situational RB. That's not a knock on Duke but rather what his role has always been no matter the circumstances. I can't say I blame Duke. His touches actually went down once Freddie took over.

Systems are different across the NFL. There are teams that use a RB like Duke more than it looks like we would here. I agree with those who indicate that Hilliard would be the back up if Chubb went down before Hunt was ready. As I've pointed out, Duke has never been seen as an every down RB to carry the rock. I don't see why people suddenly think that would change now.

Duke is a weapon. As such I never like to see us lose a weapon. But I can see why Duke would want to go to a situation where he'll get more opportunities. He's been a good soldier and a solid contributor here any time he's been called upon. You couldn't ask for more. So if or when a trade is made, I hope he goes into a good situation and has a chance to shine.

The only constant in life is change.

This is true.

Duke Johnson has the unfortunate status of being our 3rd best RB, and our 5th (maybe) best WR.

He is a very useful player, but not vital. He has value, but he is not "the most valuable" player. He is good in all phases of his job, but not elite in any of them.

I think that he sees his touches diminishing immensely here. How often is he going to get the ball, especially once Hunt returns from suspension? If we go 5 wide, it's probably Jarvis, OBJ, Callaway, Higgins, and Njoku. Where does Duke fit? Maybe he comes in on 3rd and long as a blocker?

Duke is a good player, and has been a good teammate. He hasn't complained about his role. He has value, but I doubt it's as high as some think.

Worst case, you keep him under contract and bring him into camp.. then somebody on another team goes down with season-ending injury and suddenly a guy like Duke is worth a lot more.

j/c:

I have heard New England mentioned as a perfect spot for Duke at least a few times. I won't ever say "never," but the Pats already have James White, who is extremely similar to Duke in size, style, and ability.

I think teams like Philly[if Sproles retires,] Dallas, KC, and Minni make more sense. I don't think Duke is a starter. He is a change of pace back who is very effective in his role.

Hoping he goes to a NFC team. I'd hate to see him on any team we play this season, especially the Pats and Jets, who a coworker has made me HATE the last 2 seasons.

almost every NFL offense has a "pass catching RB"
the problem with DJ is he gives you nothing in the ground attack.
wherever he plays he just needs to move to WR full time.
I can.see him.going to Buffalo whos stocked up taking other teams end of the bench options

I'm not sure that's 100% true. Since he got here he only gets about 5 carries per game but he averages 4.3 ypc and he has explosive ability to break bigger ones..

He's NOT an every down back but I wouldn't go so far as to say he gives you "nothing"...

Our 2nd, Duke, and a 4th or 5th might get us the Pats pick.

I was talking in a thread about Duke Johnson, not elite level backs.

Duke is a good back. There are lot's of good backs. They enter the league with fresher legs every year.

Why would the Patriots trade for Duke Johnson when they already have James White?

I've said the same thing multiple times, but no one wants to listen.

Or we didn't see it.


I am just throwing out possibilities. If you don't think so, cool.

The Duke is who he is, we will be lucky to get a 7th round pick for the guy. Wasn't Howard traded for a 6th round pick? Jordon Howard has a much better resume then Duke at this point.

I like Duke, but am not a Duke homeboy. He is a good guy and a good player where you can find lot's of good guys and good players fairly late in a draft.

Devin Ozigbo, Nebraska....he just visited...maybe he replaces Duke. Not to mention we still like Hilliard....why not him?

People who think Duke holds value above maybe 5th round tops, are going to be ticked.

I agree he will be traded, just do not see him getting traded to NE. TB maybe.

i think some of his 4.3 yds per carry can be attributed
to him getting the ball on a,2nd or 3rd long and he gets a nice 6 8 yd gain vs a nickel package.
hes,more straightine fast than quick.
he lacks that ability to be patient and at the last second pop a crease and go 50 yds.
he needs perfect blocking to get anywhere.
he seems to go down easy on contact..hes not going to drag guys.

that's a fair assessment. But, I'd argue he has more value than an unproven 5th round pick.

Because he's performed on an NFL field since he came to Cleveland.

Maybe TB....there are 30 other teams, so yep, the odds of it being NE aren't as good as elsewhere.

what's crazy is he used to be our best weapon ... probably by a long shot

I remember that game in San Diego and he carried us

When, during the season, is the trading deadline?

I was thinking that if it coincides with the timing of Hunt coming off suspension, then why not hang on to Duke, use him as you need, then trade him just before the deadline.. I mean if the timing works out right...

Is that even possible?

another thing hurting Duke is that hes not even
a contributor in special teams.
for someone thats so " explosive" as they claim.
how come hes not the #1 kick returner?
what it comes down to tbe Browns can draft a RB
this year and do Dukes job this year and catch 20 25 passes. or run the ball 2 3 times a game at a fraction of the cost.
a team like the 49ers Redskins or Giants could use him.
a reliable check down outlet.

I heard on one of the sports talk shows that Miami may be looking to deal Reshad Jones,SS. They seem like a team that may need a RB. I wonder what it would take to make that trade happen?

Sorry to hear that...hope he goes to the Eagles out of our Conference.

I liked Duke a lot and thought he could prosper here. I'm shaky on Hunt keeping clean. Oh well I'm sure we will comply to his wishes. Not good to keep somebody who wants to leave...hopefully we can get a 4th rounder or better for him.

jmho

I wish I could agree with you but I think that one must look at some of the latest deals for mid level RB's to gauge value. At least to some extent. The Bears just traded Jordon Howard to the Eagles for a 2020 6th round pick. I mean they didn't even get a pick in this years draft for the guy.

That would be a tough market to expect more than a fifth round pick for Duke.

Duke might net you a 6th RD pick.
Jordan Howard is a better RB and yep he was traded for a 6th RD pick.
RBs used to be the bread and butter of the offense. the focal point.
not anymore.
Remember Kareem Hunt was let go. top 5 RB.
Cheifs offense didnt skip a beat.
same for Duke..if hes traded the Browns offense wont miss him.

He was traded for a future 6th, which translates to a current year 7th.

If Duke is traded, I expect it to be for a player, not a pick.

agreed Ytown

If we want to get technical, my understanding based on performance the pick for Howard could become a 5th.

Miami would seem like a place Duke might want to go back to. Flores might want a James White-like back after his time in NE.

I don't see Jones, though, without more included in the trade, and I'd rather not give up more.

Not sure what else Miami has that might be of interest and actually be available.

You made me think of something as well...


The player contract can affect the trade as well... Howard is on a 1 year rental so to speak. Duke would be under contract for 3 years. That could affect his value.

Never actually though of that angle.

It could, by maybe a round IMO.

In the end I think Duke is packaged with a pick to gain a more valuable pick. I am not going to bicker on where or how high that pick might be.

Florida, no state tax...everyone wants to play there....lol

Kind of hard to compare the two backs.

Howard had two impressive years to start his career but his ypc dropped below the dreaded 4 yards last year. Not to mention he is a power back who's career receiving yards are what were previously expected of Duke Johnson in a single season.

That said, it is now known he is up for trade and WANTS to be traded, so his value is likely no higher than a 5th round pick.

Then a gain, I thought Ogbah may be able to net a 4th or 5th round pick too and all we got was a 3rd safety- dime back level guy out of him.

Not sure if Duke and our 6th for Philadelphia's 1st 4th round pick (they have 2 with the comp pick) is really worth it, but that's likely the general value we'd get (give or take).

Tennessee has no income tax...one of 3-4 states to do it that way.


Just tax consumption.

I was posting about gas taxes. In the PFF. I don't know why.

There's actually 9.

9 is more than one. There are, rather than "There's."

Just messin' w/you. No ill will intended.

Texas is one

That is crazy talk, and I like it! Dorsey is good at trades, a given. a bundled Duke can amplify his value to crack back into higher picks, let's do it. I think for defense especially, it might be "best for man available" if we try to use him to juicy up a trade.

Gonna trust Dorsey some more.

Because of the suspension we might wait for the Trade Deadline. When is that cause everything I come up with just stops with SEASON STARTS..September and they don't go further.

Last year it was in October so 5-6 games into the season.

We could wait till then. Also at that time Draft picks are at its lowest value a team might be desperate because of injuries and we could get TOP draft Dollar for him at that time!!!

Then all we got to do is wait 2 more games of suspension for HUNT.

jmho

The release of 2019 schedule might be important factor. I think it's April 19th.

Funny but I asked this very same question earlier in this thread... Don't remember getting an answer.

j/c:

I was reading about how the Cowboys are going to be looking for a #2 RB and I once again thought of Duke Johnson.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cowboys-going-looking-no-2-104939924.html

I think there is a good chance that Duke will be traded the night before--or during the draft--this year.

As discussed earlier, I hope it is for a player rather than a late round draft pick. I brought up Sean Lee's name earlier and I think he could be of some help for us.

I'm sure we will do our best to accomodate Duke's request. But I think once the season starts he will be gungho.

I can see us trading him at around the trade deadline that is when teams will have key injuries and some with their RB.
That also is when the Draft picks have their least value to a team so we can get a good deal.

Also I really think we need Duke until Hunt's suspension is over. That is why we won't dump him for nothing. If somebody offers us a trade that we cannot refuse before the draft but if you are talking back up RB...we are looking at a 5th, 6th 7th round offer.

I don't think we will dump him like that. I hope/think we will keep him and he will have the same role as last year. I think in Kitchen's first game Duke had 9 receptions.

But in this period while Hunt is suspended Duke will put up some great numbers especially in the passing game.

If he still wants to go we will get a good return for him even if its like 2 games left of the suspension.

jmho

just me, but I'd rather hold onto him for his salary instead of getting a 5th round pick or whatever, especially whne Hunt's out

Dukes value to the Browns is I'm sure a lot higher than any value he has in the league when it comes to trades.

With that being said, I'm sure there is a chance we trade Duke during the draft. I'd like to assume if we make a deal then, it must be a pretty good deal (better than low draft pick) for both teams involved.

If the deal isn't great, I'd keep him until the trade deadline. We may only get a 5th or 6th round pick, but he'll contribute to the teams success until then.

Again, Duke is an asset to this team. I hope we use him for as long as we have him. And personally, I'd like to hold on to him as long as possible.

I've said Duke would be a draft day trade from the time we signed Hunt. Has to be a win-win for both teams and it depends on each teams board. I see us swapping our 4th for a higher 4th or low 3rd.

i mean we could do that, but I just don't see it from a logical standpoint ... I'd hold onto him unless we got a REALLY nice offer, which I doubt

once howard got traded for basically a ham sandwich, Duke because worthless in a trade. He still has value to the team..much more so than a 6th or 7th pick in a future draft.

I think it goes a long way to send a message to players around the league that if a player wants to be traded, that a team facilitate a trade. Sending a message to players across the NFL if you want to be traded but the Browns will hold you hostage, isn't a message you want to send.

I don't think that means you should give a player away, but you really need to work on granting him his way out of town if that's what he wants. The NFL isn't like most jobs. It's not like there's a huge pool of employees to pick from. Sending the proper message to players across the league is worth more than some may wish to acknowledge.

I'm not sure paying $7 million for an oft injured, 32 year old LB who had been contemplating retirement is a good return for Duke.

Sean Lee retirement talk link

I'm not completely disregarding the idea. I'm just not sure how much he has left.

I'm not sure if Dallas has anybody else we might be interested in or not.

Don't think we'd be interested in Gregory after the Gordon saga, and I'm not even sure if you can trade for a suspended player.

Not a lot of other names jump out at me.

No Pitt, I don't agree players run from failure not from being held hostage.

I certainly understand and I think even Duke would say he understands if the Browns hold on to him while waiting for Hunt to come off suspension.

The Browns IMO need to hold onto Duke and trade him when it makes sense for the Browns to do so. He will be a valuable asset until Hunt returns, then maybe not so much.

Well there's certainly two ways to look at it. I don't discount the other side in the way you proposed it.

I just look at it this way. You can refuse to honor his wishes which sends a message to players across the league. IMO this may be a factor whether they wish to come to Cleveland. That may have a negative future impact. It seems to me Dorsey has tried to make Cleveland the most attractive place for players to come in the short time span he has had to work with. To me this would send the opposite message.

Or, you can look at the very short term and do what's right for the moment and not look at the big picture of the message you are sending around the league.

I think I did address the fact that I agree we just shouldn't give him away. That wouldn't be smart either. But if you can find a deal that is reasonable, the sooner the better I think would be the best conclusion to reach for a player who doesn't want to be here.

I'm not sure I understand your "rum from failure" comment.

First let me say that I love Duke and would love to keep him, but I feel Dorsey like's Hilliard a lot and of course Hunt comes back in week 9, so IMO Duke will get traded just before the draft or as a chip to move up in the late 1st early 2nd if the player Dorsey wants is there. Nevertheless Duke will be traded … JMHO

Duke's value is probably a conditional 5th to 7th rounder

And that is why a player for player trade would make much more sense.

Based on your thoughts that the Cowboys could be in play for Duke, I would agree a player for player might be in the mix. I don't think Dallas has a lot of picks this year. I know they already traded their 1st rounder.

I also don't think we signed Duke to be traded for a 7th rd pick. If it happens to be for a pick, I'd have to think the minimum would at least be a 5th. Duke may warrant a new contract upon trading, but he's still under contract for the next 3 years. I think that holds some value... getting a RB with little wear and tear for 3 years might be worth more than a 7th, or at least should be (but I'm not an expert).

I can see a trade come draft time if for some reason the player we want (I suspect safety, but could be anyone) ends up being drafted before we can get to him. And we trade away Duke to add that position of need instead of drafting.

If we do trade Duke for a pick, I'd imagine it would be something like Duke and a 6th for a 4th rd pick, which in essence is just trading Duke to move up. Dorsey seems to do this a lot.

Lost in all that surrounds Duke is how Dorsey and the staff view Hilliard?

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2019/04/18/whats-right-about-the-cleveland-browns-dontrell-hilliard/

I fully expect Duke to be traded between now and the end of the draft.

I think it will be part of a package to either move up or for a another player. Moving Duke for a late round pick serves no purpose. Keeping him is worth more.

If he is retained after the draft. It is because the right deal could not be made.

Then it makes sense to keep him till week eight. During that time it is close to 100 percent that some back will get injured and Duke's value in trade will become important.

John Dorsey calls Duke Johnson 'vital part' of Browns offense, no push to trade the RB
https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2019/04/...o-trade-the-rb/

One of the more pressing questions around the 2019 Cleveland Browns is the fate of running back Duke Johnson. The team’s top receiver in 2017 and a fan favorite, Johnson saw his workload decline precipitously under Freddie Kitchens once the now-head coach took control of the Browns offense midway through 2018. He’s firmly behind Nick Chubb on the depth chart, and once Kareem Hunt returns from his suspension he will vault Johnson as well.

Johnson has asked the team for a trade, but for the second time in as many months Browns GM John Dorsey reiterated that he sees no reason why he should dump Duke. Dorsey addressed it again in his pre-draft press conference on Thursday.

“No, when you sit down with Freddie (Kitchens) and the coaching staff, they see him as a vital part of this offense moving forward,” Dorsey responded when asked if he was ready to part ways with Johnson. “He’s a good playmaker.”

Dorsey later acknowledged he has had some discussion with other teams about possible trades but doesn’t see any rush to move on.

“He understands the role that he’s going to play within this offense, and that’s what’s important because Duke, everybody knows, is a very talented playmaker, and I look forward to seeing him on the field on Sundays,” Dorsey said. “He’s really good and he’s going to help this offense move forward.”

Dorsey is certainly saying all the right things.

John's playing chess, not checkers. He may have plans to trade him or not, but he isn't going to give any hints to that right now.

Yeah, Duke put Dorsey in a tough spot when he asked for a trade. Keeping a disgruntled veteran on a team that has a losing tradition and is looking to make giant strides is not ideal.

Yet, Duke effectively diminished his trade value when he said he wanted to be traded.

I have seen posters saying we should keep Duke until the trade deadline. I think that would be good because of Hunt's situation. I do have a question though:

Does anyone know if teams receiver more or less compensation if they trade a guy at the trade deadline as opposed to trading a guy on draft day?

I agree. Trying to build value. Letting teams know this isn't a fire sale.

My first thought is less. However, if a team is desperate due to injury and/or thinking they are one play-maker away, a team may give a little more.

Those were my thoughts, as well. But, I don't really follow those types of things and didn't want to put out false information.

Excuse my manners............Thank you.

It is usually more, because of the reasons that you mentioned, but sometimes it winds up as a cut because nobody is interested. RB's are already undervalued by the league, so the risk of getting nothing is greater.
Personally because of Hunt's suspension, I would take the risk. Duke will give us production that we can't buy elsewhere and if we aren't getting good offers, we aren't risking a big loss.

That makes sense.

The one thing to consider that might make one change their mind is that a disgruntled player who loved his usage under Hue and is not being used as much by the new coach could prove to be disruptive. That carries more weight on a young team.

Not saying that will happen, but it could.

Yep,that's always a risk, but I don't think Duke is that type of guy.

He doesn't seem to be, but the request for a trade is something to consider.

And Dep, I am not disagreeing w/you. Just trying to sort things out by looking at things from different angles. You made solid points.

Totally agree.... unless we get great value for him during the draft I don't trade him until the deadline...And again only if we get a good deal.... no need to trade him unles he's acting like a cancer in the locker room... which he's shown no signs that he would

I certainly agree with you. I just wonder what the difference may be in what the league and Dorsey consider a good deal verses what the fan base sees as a good deal? They may be vastly different.

Yeah I know I wanted Lee as a mentor to our LB staff and be in that LB room as well as a good player for a game or so or possibly in the playoffs getting more reps. But if he's going to retire. Maybe give a 7th round pick for him and if he retires we get the pick back.

But I see value in him as a field general or a mentor to make Schobert the best there is as well as helping Kirksey and Avery. or any rookies we add.

Dukes value has to be before the trade deadline, he is going to have some good stats in Receptions and TDs as we spread the field giving him a lot of room to do his thing. The value for draft picks at that time is not as important as improving your team and if we get the right team who has an injured go to RB he can bring a lot more in return with a draft pick. If we can get a 3rd round pick for him that would be a good trade and as mentioned we need him as we wait for the Hunt suspension to pass. Also got to figure a week or two before he is at game mode 100%.

So waiting for the Trade deadline we might get a trade partner who has a little desperation and we would be closer to the suspension period being over so that we would only have to go with Hilliard in that role or a rookie for just a few games.

If we trade Duke now for Draft picks...6th round is about what you can expect.

As Vers said probably the best bet is Player for Player...I doubt we get something like Randall for Kizer but we can get somebody that is worth more than a 6th round pick.

jmho

I might be mistaken, but Duke started complaining when Hue was still the coach. Yes his carries were down with Freddie, but his disenchantment started before Hue was fired.

Actually the reports came out early this spring not long after the Browns signed Hunt.

Let's count the times Hue said they need to get the ball to Duke more....

So, Duke with us until half-season or so, assuming Chubb is healthy. I was glad to read Dorsey showed DJ in a complimentary light. He is a playmaker. Judging him much by Huey's failure metrics can't be accurate.

Hope to see us find a way to use him. if he has to go, get something decent for him.

I think we are pretty close on this. Anyone speculating on whether or not he'll raise a stink is just guessing at this point.

If right now all we can get is a 6th or 7th rounder, I'll take that risk. If he raises a stink, then we can just cut him.

I'd rather try to get some games out of him and then trade him to a team more desperate.

j/c,

WP
"Going into the 2018 season, Johnson shared the backfield with Carlos Hyde and rookie Nick Chubb. Through the first six games, Johnson retained his familiar role as a runner and catcher totaling 111 rushing yards and 14 receptions for 164 receiving yards. Before Week 7, Hyde was traded to the Jacksonville Jaguars.

--^Hue Jackson\Todd Haley era

In Week 9, against the Kansas City Chiefs, he had nine receptions for 78 yards and two touchdowns in the 37–21 loss. Overall, he finished the 2018 season with 201 rushing yards to go along with 47 receptions for 429 yards and three touchdowns."

Johnson had his best game of the year in Freddie's first game as OC.

So I don't follow the logic of him being less involved in 2018, then before Hue Jackson was fired.

The trend begins with us acquiring more Playmakers.

With the Draft upcoming ... working on a trade for DJ is probably not on the to do list for the FO.

If we can not do a player for player trade, then the best we could expect would be a 6th round 2020 selection after the draft.

On the other hand ... The Browns might be forced into drafting a RB where they might have otherwise not considered one on their board.

I probably wasn't clear. I was talking about when Hue called the plays in the two previous years. Duke had a high usage rate in those two years when you compare him to backs w/a similar skill set. As I accurately predicted, Duke's usage decreased once Haley was in charge of the offense and for the most part continued under Freddie.

a dramatically lesser FO managed to get a 1st for Trent Richardson.


Never low-ball your own value.

Got ya. That is true.

I want Duke on this team. He is an asset. I think one reason his production declined was the fact that Baker tends to go down field as much as possible. With the receiving core we have now, he will have a ton of space to work in, I wouldn't doubt that he is a big contributor early in the season.

does anyone know what the Browns record is when he ACTUALLY scores a TD?
I think he has 14 career TDS.
Im sure for a fact the Browns are under .500 when Duke finds the endzone.
point being is that in that 2 year span when the Browns were 1 and 31...opposing defenses didnt have to worry about Duke if he scored TDs or not. he didnt keep DC's up late at night in a panic.
the truth is Duke was a average player on offense that was below average at the skill positions
Dorsey comes in raises that level by 1000x.
Landry Beckham Hunt.
even Higgins has rose to the occasion.
there is nothing that DJ does better in this offense then anyone
else.
Chubb and Hunt can catch wheel routes swing passes all day.
DJ isnt even a capable kick returner.

Oh I think we as fans are idiots... but Dorsey has built a ton of trust in ymsle at least... I think he'll wait for wihqtever fair market value is... can't imagine he gives duke away

Dorsey isn't going to trade Duke for a bag of peanuts unless Dukes trade demands turn in to a circus act.

In trade, I think Duke hold the most value in a trade up scenario, a pick or two and Duke for a nice pick. I am not going to bicker on what those possibilities might or might not be, that is just how I see things.

This team has such a wealth of offensive assets. I'm not sure Freddie or really any coach could find way to keep them all happy, that would keep me up at night trying to get that part right.

Duke has done nothing but do whatever we've asked of him. And he's done it well.

He deserves his shot and I just don't think he's going to get a clean shot here. I'd hate to see him go, but of all the RB's we have, he's not the best of the bunch. Not sure who is, of course right now it's Chubb, but with Hunt, who knows what we have there and who knows if we will be able to retain him after the next season.

If he rehabs his reputation well enough, he'll be in demand.. So he may bolt.

It's a tough problem,, But if you gotta have a problem as a team, this is the one to have... Too many good players... Damn,,

Looking at Duke's limited production last year, there may be some incentive for both him, and the team, to showcase him a bit in hopes of increasing both his trade, and next contract, value.

With nobody else but Hilliard at RB until game 9, I think best value from Duke is to keep him till the trade deadline.

We got a fifth for Hyde, Duke should do better than that.

It's because you're isolating a single game and not looking at the entire body of work under both coaches. The game stats you posted was an outlier.

jc

I've always been of the mindset that you can't have too many good players. Not enough good players? That's a problem. Too many good players? Great! It's up to the coaching staff to divvy those touches up to help the team win. Injuries happen, players fatigue, Hunt is suspended for the first 8 games.

You don't really know what's going to happen in the NFL. Maybe Chubb gets hurt or regresses from his rookie year. I don't see anything that would point to that but these things do happen sometimes. I never saw why it was so urgent that we had get rid of Duke just because we ugpraded the talent in the backfield.

You're going to have at least 3 backs active on gameday anyway, why can't Duke be one of them? Especially when Hunt is going to be suspended 8 games. It's not like Duke is a workhorse back that needs 20+ carries a game. It seems like he's a good third back (and also third down back) and a useful member of the offense.

Move him around, do different things with him. Say we send out the following personnel, in addition to Baker and the five linemen: Chubb, Duke, Njoku, OBJ, Landry.

Is that 21 or 11 personnel? Hard to say, because you can line up Duke in the backfield or in the slot and the Browns really should do both. Run a hurry up offense, move players around, put them in motion, be creative. We have real offensive minds in charge now. Look at Duke's versatility as an asset and think about how it can be exploited. I'm not sure how a late round pick is going to give that same kind of value.

jc

After staring down the barrel of the first half schedule, it would have to be an enticing draft day trade to unload Duke. That's the goal, not sure it will come to fruition because I'm not trading him for peanuts.

I think he'll be gone by the end of the draft. At the very least I don't think he'll see the field with us this season, and will be surprised if he does. I really believe Dorsey wants to use him as capital to get a player or a pick.

I think so to. I expect Dorsey to work some magic. I wouldn't be surprised, if there are only bs offers, to see him say "screw you then" and keep him for insurance purposes.

The point was and is, that DJs' diminishing role had already begun under Hue Jackson in 2018.

I am the one who brought up Hue Jackson and I am telling you that you misinterpreted what I meant. I explained it again to Steub and he got it.

I was talking about when Hue Jackson was actually calling the plays and when he chose which players to insert into the lineup. Duke was used quite a bit when Hue was making those decisions and not so much when Haley--and later Freddie--took over.

My point was correct.

It doesn't matter.

With Chubb, Hunt, and Hilliard, Duke will see even fewer chances.

cant anyone see Duke has peaked as a player.
he has hit his ceiling.hes not going to get any
better than what he is.
some of these posters act like Duke cant be replaced by another RB in the draft.
in fact he can be.
Duke feels can get more touches elsewhere.
trade him and move foward.

Like others have said, it really depends on the offer. A late round pick alone shouldn't cut it though I'm sure there will be teams that approach the Browns with that kind of offer.

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as you present it.

I don't think Duke's role was reduced. I think our need for his role was reduced.

In 2017, when we lost every game, we were behind more and couldn't realistically run the ball, so Duke was in more. In strictly passing situations, Duke was still the choice last year. We just actually had the lead more often and running the ball was more beneficial for us.

In 2016 and 2018, Duke had almost identical snap counts. 459 (2018) vs 457 (2016).

In passing situations, Duke is/was still our go to option. When we wanted a consistent threat of the run, he wasn't. Teams don't stack the box to stop Duke. Teams will stack the box to stop Chubb, which can open things up for big plays downfield.

Love Duke's playmaker ability - hope we find a way to keep him or receive significant value in a trade.

Anyone remember Dino Hall? Guy had speed for us for awhile.

Does the snap count really tell us anything, or does touches and receptions tell us the real story? In 2017 Duke had 82 rushes and 74 receptions.

In 2018 under Haley and Freddie combined, Duke had 40 rushes and 47 receptions. It's a funny thing how stats work that way.

The snap count was just a stat I found interesting and didn't exactly line up with Vers' assertion. Feel free to "set up some new goal posts" that I wasn't even aiming at, though. Isn't the goal posts bit a phrase you like to use?

I'm sorry if I like to consider things like context and the actually observable data when people make blanket statements.

Some people actually find other perspectives informative, even if they don't entirely agree with them.

I don't think we called radically different plays this year than we did when he was on the field last year. We just had other options in the passing game this year who got open.

It's nice having a QB that spreads the ball around and other weapons to spread it to.

Did you bother to actually look at the rest of what I said?

It's funny how your scat back plays more when you're down by a lot of points and need to conserve clock. Go figure.

When your winning and trying to run clock, you don't use your scat back as much.

I'm sorry if you think everything has to be black and white absolutes. I'm partial to nuance and flavor.

I don't think any individual stat or group of stats tells the "real story." I think they all tell a part of the story. I try to look at all the parts and see how they might fit together.

j/c:

I think I would prefer to keep Duke until the trade deadline due to Hunt's suspension, but I have a feeling that he will be traded the night before the draft of during the draft.

Freddie utilized him a lot in that one game [I think it was his first as OC] but Duke's touches went down again after that.

Combine Freddie not using him much and considering that Duke has asked to be traded, I think that Dorsey will move him. Dorsey has talked about how he wants people to get along. Disgruntled players are not good for team chemistry, especially for a younger team still trying to develop that important trait.

I have championed trading Duke for a player rather than a draft pick, but I suppose using Duke as part of a package to move up in round 2 might be a worthwhile venture.

The one thing that could change my mind is if Duke comes out and says he wants to stay in Cleveland. Dorsey made the comments about utilizing Duke this year, but we haven't heard a retort from Duke. This tells me that he probably views Dorsey's comments the same way I took them.......Dorsey is not wanting to diminish Duke's trade value.

J/c

A few things to consider here and who knows how Dorsey/Freddie prioritize them .... and how they prioritize the following things determine what were willing to accept for Duke ... Duke has value to us right now ... question is ... how much value ....

First i want to address Freddie’s utilization of Duke over the last 8 last year ... i think u can throw that out the window ... Freddie did the smart thing and kept things real simple ... he had zero time to install his O ... he kept it real basic and simple because he had too ... i don’t think u can read to much into Duke’s usage last year under Freddie into how he will be utilized this year under freddie’s and todd’s O ...

Now to the variables that matter ...

- what do we think of Hilliard
- dukes desire to be traded ... this can be overcome and Duke’s very good at what he does and until we get Hunt and even after Hunt’s arrival Duke should have a roll ...
- what is his value to us .... will we take a 5th or 6th for him or a player of that value or is he worth more than that to us ...

I hope we don’t trade him ... i don’t think we’ll get what he’s worth to us ... 8 games is a long time in NFL terms so I guess it really boils down to what we think of Hilliard ... it doesn't make sense to leave yourself without a really good 3rd down back and an above average #2 if he needs to start a few games for 1/2 the season ... Duke has a friendly contract # and is very good and he has a roll ... so to me it depends on how much faith we have in Hilliard ...

It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out this week ...

Your points are all good except for one about throwing last year's eight games out the window. Freddie's offense wasn't a continuation of Haley's. It wasn't some dumb-downed version.

Instead, Freddie's offense was innovative and played to Baker's strengths. It also incorporated getting rid of the ball faster. We had a ton of plays where Baker got rid of the ball very quick. We didn't have a lot of plays where we asked Baker to hold the ball a long time for slow-developing routes. The times when Baker did hold the ball came when his first read wasn't open and he had to go through his progressions.

One would think that Duke's skill set would fit in nicely w/Freddie's offensive concepts. But, one would also have to wonder if they fit in w/what Baker likes to do? I saw both Landry and Duke open underneath last year, but Baker didn't throw it to them and elected to throw the ball down the field.

I agree w/the rest of your post and I would like to keep Duke because eight games is a long time. The thing that Dorsey, Freddie, and especially Duke are almost assuredly contemplating is what will Duke's role be when Hunt comes off his suspension. I can almost guarantee you that Duke will not enjoy that role at all. Hunt can do everything Duke can do and more. He can also do those things better.

So again, unless I hear that Duke has changed his mind and wants to remain a Cleveland Brown, I am "guessing" that he will be traded.

I think that Hilliard aside, we would still be short 1 RB (at least) before Hunt could be activated ... If we traded DJ.

If we draft a RB this week, then we might be able to say that we still have 3 RBs' besides Duke ... Not so much today.

Although finding a #3 RB who is looking for work, shouldn't be too hard to do.

I think that we are straining for nats here.

Those things tend to happen before the Draft.

DJ is better than a set of camp legs. Keep and play until Hunt is ready to go. If Hunt falls through, we need to look at this again.

Playing him well now possibly indicates trade validation stats for later while helping us now.

Could we use Landry in Duke's role if it came to it?

Freddie did give him at least the one carry.

It seems to have troubled you that I pointed out how much Duke was actually used verses how many snaps he was in the game for. Yes, those are two different things. For the RB position, production and actual usage mean something. Sometimes the usage of stats can be deceptive. I thought showing the snap count verses actual targets and carries was one such example. Sorry that seemed to blow your dress up.

Your straw man argument more annoyed me than troubled me. They are two different things, but they aren't mutually exclusive. My initial post wasn't in opposition of Vers. It was adding context. He has a point, but there are other considerations to take into account. Ending a post with "My point was correct" just struck me in a "if he feels the need to say that, I wonder what the numbers actually show" sort of way.

I'll leave you to the juvenile jabs that have nothing to do with football.

Yeah, the actual carries and targets a RB gets do change the context somewhat. That was the point.

To me when you use the phrase "when he chose which players to insert into the lineup" the stat that refers to is snap count.

When you use that line and then assert that your point was correct when the snaps are almost equal in a year Hue called the plays vs. last year, it might be worthy of a "Hmmmmmm...wait a second. Let's look a little closer at this."

I'm not debating whether the carries and targets changed. I straight out said so in my initial post and tried to explain why with regards to 2017 in particular.

I'm looking at another side of the context which you would seem to prefer to ignore.

I don't feel it's a meaningful context. That's all . I mean if a second or third WR on your team has a high snap count with very little in the way of receptions or yards, does that indicate that he's a good WR?

If his stats go down drastically in one season, does that change his value or contribution to the team? I don't have an issue if you think it actually holds some meaning. I just don't see it. When you play one of the skilled positions, production means everything. When your production drops significantly over the course of a single season, I don't see how many times you were trotted out on the field as having much real value in evaluating a players importance to your offensive production.

lol, it depends. Why is the production going down? Are teams giving more focus to stopping you? Are you playing with a lead versus playing from behind? What role is the player expected to fill?

Since you brought up WR: A good deep threat receiver might not have a lot of targets. If a safety has to roll his way, he can still be a good deep threat receiver. You won't necessarily see his impact just by looking at his production. Again you have to look at all the context.

These are the things I was trying to discuss.

I feel that everything is meaningful within the appropriate context. To attempt to figure out how much importance to place on each facet, you have to look at everything, though.

You can't just focus in on one thing and have blinders towards the rest and expect to get the whole picture.

I think it's a little more simplistic than that. We all know that a shorter pass is much safer than the deep pass. We all know that with very few exceptions deep passes are thrown far less often. So I don't believe trying to compare a deep WR to a RB is in the same category.

What we do know is that Duke either lined up as a RB or as a slot, short yardage WR and when he was in the line up he was used sparingly as the actual target. To consider that the opposing team was game planning or play calling in order to marginalize Duke when he was used so sparingly is another scenario that would be hard for one to buy into.

I understand your thought process and we are all entitled to our opinions. But I think your proposals are why the fan base has a disconnect over what they feel Duke is worth in a trade scenario and what the league, including our own FO values him at.

This is one reason I feel many will be outraged over the compensation we will actually receive for Duke when he is traded.

Not for nothing but it doesn't save the Browns anything to trade duke.. at least that's what the article on the subject on NFL.com said.

So there really is not reason unless they get a really good deal from someone. Something that blows them away

And that goes back to exactly what I referred to.

The fan base, at least a large portion of them, may see his value much differently than our FO or the rest of the league does.

While the fans might feel anything less than a third or fourth rounder is too little for Duke, the league and our FO may consider a fifth round pick for Duke is one helluva deal.

It's all about perspective.

If we where to Draft a RB, then it would be with the expectations that he could be more than a set of camp legs, but I agree that keeping DJ would be a better scenario, providing that he will not be a locker room liability.

Duke is the one who is asking to be traded ... The team has only openly stated that they would like to keep him.

j/c:

I get the feeling that some folks are forgetting that Duke has asked for a trade. That is a significant factor.

It's not a cool thing to say that to the media because it is now going to make it harder to get fair value in return. Duke could have went to Dorsey and asked for a trade privately. He chose to make his wishes known to the public.

That tells me that he is upset enough about his situation that he really doesn't care about how this affects the franchise. He wants out and most likely will become a distraction that this team isn't ready to handle.

Again, I will change my tune if Duke goes on record by saying he has dropped his request to be traded and that he wants to stay in Cleveland.

One more thing. I know a bit about the mentality of RBs. We don't care all that much for snap counts. We want the damn ball. Think of Zeke's "feed me" act. I think that it is foolish to think that Duke isn't upset that his touches have decreased.

I don't think that is a bad thing. RBs are tough and want to do everything they can to help the team. They also have to be confident enough to think they are good enough to help the team. They want touches.

I'm hoping Duke changes his mind and wants to remain in Cleveland, but I really, really doubt that will happen.

I haven't forgotten he asked for a trade, but I do think that Dorsey isn't swayed by that. I get the feeling (no guarantee I'm right of course) that Dorsey will do what's in the best interest of the Browns and nobody else..

I mean, if the deal looks good AND he can do right by Duke, sure, that makes sense. But when push comes to shove, I think him having requested a trade doesn't hold that much water. JMO

You brought up WRs, so I used a deep threat to illustrate context in the realm of snap count vs production and a player's overall value because it was the most simplistic and I figured it'd be easy to understand. Perhaps that was an overestimation.

How much do you think that I think Duke is worth?

My thought process is that his value hasn't change much over the past 3 seasons. He's still basically the same player, and we'd still use him basically the same ways. How often we might be in those situations may have changed. How we use him in those situations hasn't. Hopefully we won't have many down 14 situations going forward where he'd have seen extended run. If we do, he'd be nice to have.

I just don't think Hue and Freddie/Haley used him all that differently. Duke is what he is, and he does what he does.

I get that Duke and his agent are thinking about his next and possibly last contract coming up already and don't think he's getting as many touches as he could. However, he needs to determine how much he values winning versus how much he values touches.

He'd get a lot more touches on a team that was constantly getting demolished. That's part of the reason I brought up both 2016 and 2017 with Hue. When we were abysmal and went winless, Duke got a lot of touches. In 2016 when we were more consistently competitive (though still mostly losing), he saw the field about the same amount as last year.

In the game we lost handily to KC, Duke had 9 receptions.

So, while I don't see his value as a player changing, his value to us may have diminished as it appears we should be trailing a lot less often.

However, the Patriots seem to still find uses for similar backs. Though they also don't always get a ton of touches.

I don't know what I would trade him for. But I'd probably hold out for a 3rd on draft day or if someone gets injured early with the intention of keeping him until Hunt is available for games. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if the price went down.

At that point the price would go to us releasing him.

You can't think of Duke as a guy we are going to get a pick straight up….he will be the sweetener in a deal.


As I have said many times, we don't need more picks unless they are future picks.. We need to trade some to get a couple of better picks.

It wouldn't bother me a bit if we ended up drafting only 3-4 players.

We are at the point where everybody we draft isn't going to make the team.

From a financial perspective, Johnson has a salary cap hit of $3.05 million and a dead cap hit of $4.05 million. It would actually cost Cleveland more to trade him than to keep him. If Cleveland wants to part with him, it would make more sense next season.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Article/Cleveland-Browns-Duke-Johnson-trade--130838367/

Again, people keep forgetting that Duke requested a trade. How many guys do that? Think about what happened w/AB in Pittsburgh. Do you think they really would have traded him for a 3rd and a 5th if AB wasn't causing problems? LOL

Duke went public. People can't see the forest for the trees.

AB is a top WR in this league. Duke isn't a top RB. It's similar but not the same. But I think we'll draft a back and trade Duke for depth.

I wasn't comparing Duke to AB talent wise. I was talking about that when a player is quoted in the media as wanting to be traded, he isn't negotiating in good faith.

Bury your head in the sand. We'll see what happens.

Duke just wants more touches and a chance to get paid bigger money. He'll settle down when he's part of a team heading to the playoffs.

I agree with Vers. If you want more touches, you go to the coach. I am sure he did and didn't like the answer.

Once guys start talking in public about wanting to be traded and skip workouts as a statement, it's time to move on.

I doubt he will be with the team much longer.

For what it's worth, Vers, this is not a complicated point you are trying to deliver. You've explained it well.

Duke went public wanting a trade, and that changes things. It is that simple.

I am torn. Hope you are right because I like him a bunch. What you state is feasible. I just don't think he will see it here. He burned this bridge wanting more in media. Possibly Dorsey's positive talklately is spin to calm the situation. Afraid he will be gone if we can get several teams interested although that may be later.

Go, Browns, whoever ends up here.

Show me a deep WR that gets as many touches as a RB and you will have made a point in your comparison. But there isn't one and you didn't.

You seem to be saying that when you use a player far less and his production decreases greatly, he holds the same value to a team. That makes no sense.

yeah, I was just simply trying to point out that his value has diminished even more.

Sorry, I forgot to put "j/c."

What is it with you and straw man arguments?

I didn't argue either of those things.

If you focused on comprehension instead of trying to "win" an argument when I'm just trying to have a discussion, I think we'd both get a lot less irritated.

I wasn't "comparing" RBs and WRs. I used a WR to illustrate the varying context of player value and how it wasn't necessarily production dependent.

I actually said Duke's value to us may have diminished. His "inherent" value hadn't changed. We might not have as much need for what he is good at. He's still good at it, though. There's no reason to give him away for pennies on the dollar.


Does anyone know the actual context of Duke asking for a trade? There was a report that it was so, but who leaked it and how was the request expressed? Was it of the "will you let us explore trade possibilities" variety or the "get me the @#$* out of here" variety?

So you are saying even if you don't really plan to use a player much, having him take up a roster spot is better than trading him for a player you would use more?

And I'm the one making a straw man argument?

You apparently don't understand what the straw man fallacy is.

And you just made another one.



Link

After reading that link, I'm tempted to start calling you Aunt Sally. I'll try to refrain, though.


I'm fine with trading him for a player we would use more. I'm less fine with trading him for a pick that would net us a player that we would probably use less.

Asking to be traded and the kicking, screaming, and throwing of feces that AB did are two different things.

If all I'm risking is a 6th or 7th round pick by holding Duke till the trade deadline, then I'll take the risk and cut him later if I have to.

Hunt is still going to be missing half of the season and what Duke can do while he is out is worth more than a 6th or 7th rounder.

He'll be increasing his trade value at the same time.

Strawman?

On Dawgtalkers??

So what you're saying is we're terrible posters and know nothing about football. Ridiculous!

Usually when someone goes down the personal road without addressing the points posed to them, it speaks volumes.

So let's try this again and maybe you'll actually answer this time. But I doubt it.

You say Duke's role has been diminished. That being the case, are you saying it's a wiser move to take a roster spot on a player seldom used or make a trade to acquire a player the team would use more?

Try to stay on topic this time.

https://923thefan.radio.com/articles/scott-petrak-i-doubt-duke-johnson-will-be-cleveland-brown-week


Scott Petrak: I doubt Duke Johnson will be a Brown in a week
He guesses something like a 5th-round pick will be the return

BASKIN & PHELPS
APRIL 22, 2019 - 11:30 AM

© Scott R. Galvin-USA TODAY Sports

CATEGORIES: NFL Heard On Browns
Scott Petrak joined Andy and Jeff to preview the NFL draft and discuss the probability of Duke Johnson being traded, what kind of return they may pull off and how likely the Browns trading into the first round may be. He said Johnson would likely only bring a 5th rounder in return and he guesses there's a 25-30% chance they trade into the first round.

Freddie Kitchens throws water on Duke Johnson trade request, Odell Beckham Jr.'s absence from voluntary camp

http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland/post/...-voluntary-camp

Something new that Freddie Kitchens will deal with in his first season as head coach are the little brushfires – real and imagined – that may spring up.

Well, he fire-hosed two of them in his final media appearance of the three-day draft.

Kitchens was asked about running back Duke Johnson’s reported request to be traded and the continual absence of high-profile, new receiver Odell Beckham Jr. from the recently concluded voluntary minicamp.

Kitchens promptly shot down both topics.

On Johnson:

“Duke’s under contract. I’ve said this for a month now, I don’t know where all this trade talk started happening. People just assumed we would trade him because we signed another good football player [Kareem Hunt]. I like good football players, and I like as many as I can get.

“It’s our job to get him the ball and enable him in whatever role that is. Duke Johnson is on this football team and will have a vital role on this team and will help us win football games. Am I surprised he’s still here? No, not one bit. I have never said anything different than that.

On mending the fences possibly kicked down in a trade request:

“I don’t know the answer to that. I just shoot him straight and tell him what his role is and show him when he gets here. All the rest of that is up to him. My decision is not based on how he feels. My decision is based on what’s best for the Cleveland Browns and this organization.

“At this point in time, him asking for a trade doesn’t matter to me. He’s a Cleveland Brown. Duke’s the type of the guy who’s going to show up and he’s going to do his job and he’s going do his job well. That’s all I can ask for as a coach. His demands, I’m not impacted by that one bit.”

On Beckham, who has missed all the voluntary portion of the offseason program since reporting on April 1 and then departing:

“No [I’m not disappointed]. Of course, I’d rather him be here than not here, but I understand why. I talk to Odell every day. He knows what we’re doing offensively every day.

“Did you know, the defensive players of the year the past two years sat out all of training camp? Khalil Mack and Aaron Donald. No offseason program at all. Now, it’s better for us to have him here, us being a new staff, but if we can’t have them ready to play, they need to find a new head coach.

“He will be ready to play. Don’t you worry about that. I’m sure you are.”

When it was suggested that Beckham’s example is different because he’s joining a new team with new coaches and new teammates, and a new offense, Kitchens went into Bill Parcells anti-media mode.

“I’ll tell you this about Odell Beckham and Baker Mayfield, I think they have a pretty good relationship, they’ve formed a pretty good camaraderie. They’ve worked together for two summers in a row in California. I don’t see their camaraderie being a problem.

“I understand [the situation is new to him]. I also understand you guys are always trying to define and draw lines in the stand between coaches and players and players and players. That’s not happening here.

“There’s no problem Odell not being here. I’d rather he be here. He’s not here. It’s voluntary. Under no circumstance am I gonna say I’m pissed off at Odell for him not being here. He’ll be ready to play, I promise you.”

One thing you can say about Freddie - he doesn't mince words. I love it.

yeah, freddie tells it like it is, which in general is the way to go

I don't know, bro. Consider this quote from Freddie:



I think it came from Duke asking for a trade. Hell, Freddie even talked about that later in the interview.

Sounds like double-speak to me.

But, don't worry. I will defend him when others turn on him. LOL

I don't get the "double speak", he just made a statement.

He said he didn't get where all the talk started. It started because Duke requested a trade. He even said that Duke, requested a trade later on in the interview.

What don't you get?

It started months before Duke said a word. It started with fans and media. After a while it was assumed the FO wanted to trade him when they never said anything of the sort.

I guess when the conversation comes back around to what Duke said, he and Dorsey could say "yeah, well screw Duke, he's under contract", but generally coaches and GMs just state the obvious canned phrase along the lines of "____ is a good football player, he is in our plans for next season and under contract with our team". It's general etiquette, not unlike your (correct, in my opinion) assessment of Baker's comments about Hue being fake being generally frowned upon.

Maybe I'm just dumb. Don't see any mixed message or double speak.

We disagree. He contradicted himself in my opinion.

But, just remember...........when the majority is ripping on Freddie, I will be the one defending him. This ain't my first rodeo.

His roster spot is at RB. The reason he wants out is not that we are short of talent in that area. No matter who we put in that roster spot they probably won't be playing much. Barring injury of course. Duke isn't "taking up a roster spot" of someone that would play more. Until week 9 we will be short in the RB room. Duke will be needed. For those 8 weeks he will be one injury away from being the starter... Also, we have no real idea what our offense might look like next year. Coach put his together last year on the fly. Duke might get 10 touches a game in our offense. We won't know until we see it. Neither will Duke.

I don't like a player demanding a trade. We have paid him good money and I am fine with keeping him. Unless he starts acting out and causing problems... then I ship him to the worst team I can make a trade with regardless of compensation.

After Hunt and now Hill, I could see Duke ending up in KC at some point next season....

We have always signed or drafted someone to play ahead of Duke. Always. The Crow, Hyde and Chubb. Duke has never been seen a s a starting RB here. I don't see why people suddenly believe that's all changed.

And that's why I like Duke. He did his thing and never complained.

Oh I certainly like Duke. But in saying that, I always keep in mind that football is a business.

Understood

I was really hoping this was true and glad Freddie stated as much. I do have a feeling that Duke will quietly do his job like the pro I believe he is.

What I get from this thread and others, is that many feel Duke wasn't treated right by the team. I disagree. He has been praised by most of the coaches that have been here. He also is paid very well for his limited use. I can understand him wanting a bigger role, but to suggest he was slighted or something by the Browns, is something I can't agree with.

I am not being argumentative, but I'm curious. What makes you say that the essence of this thread is that Duke hasn't been treated fairly by the team?

I guess some confuse playing time with not being treated right.

I hope it is so with Duke. He has been a solid performer. Hope he will do his job well here.

But it is a business being a fan as well. My bottom line doesn'tcare who wins us games. My best to Duke however this plays out.

Stop the BS about Duke Johnson and look at what he's done and expected to do. Here's the bottom line, Duke is scheduled to be the 20th rated cap hit in 2019 at RB. His cost per touch is projected to be $35,057 if and that's a huge if he gets the same amount of touches in 2019 as 2018. To put it into perspective, the second highest cap hit at RB in 2019 is Todd Gurley and his cost per touch if he meets 2018 touches is $29,206. In this comparison, the Browns are projected to pay Duke Johnson $5,851 more for every touch in 2019 than Todd Gurley! REALLY?

The reason Duke wasn't traded during the draft is because no team wants that contract. Highest paid RB per touch in the NFL? You have got to be kidding me. That's the sole reason Kitchens is making the statements he's making. He either embraces Duke or stays silent until the Browns cut him for being disruptive and eat the dead cap money they'll have to absorb.

I get it, Browns fans like Duke. But come on, here's a guy making more money than Gurley per touch and he's demanding a trade? A certain 3rd stringer used mostly on 3rd down and the Browns are paying him more than Gurley per touch? Time to cut bait...…………………………….he's not worth the trouble.

Due respect, I'm not sure cost/touch is a particularly valid metric. Add 2 more touches per game, and his cost/touch is unremarkable. What is more valid is what he does with his touches.

Gurley is also in the final year of his Rookie contract.

So your comparison is apples and oranges imo.

Likewise with the respect, lets talk about what he does with his touches per cost. Duke's total yardage in 2018 running and receiving was 630 yards. That works out to $4,841 per yard projected in 2019 with similar numbers. He scored 3 TD's so the Browns would pay $1,016,667 per TD scored. He generated 34 first downs so that's $89,706 per first down.

Todd Gurley on the other hand had 1831 total yards which works out to a projected $5,024 per yd projected in 2019 with similar numbers. He scored 21 TD's so the LAR's would pay $438,095 per touchdown scored or 43% what the Brown's will pay Duke Johnson for his TD's. Gurley generated 96 first downs so that's $95,833 per first down. Though Gurley is very slightly more expensive, Duke Johnson is no Todd Gurley.

When the Browns resigned Johnson they paid him top 10 running back money at the time. In year one of the deal they got a 50% reduction in production. There is no validity to paying Duke Johnson a top 10 contract at the time or that he will be #20 in cap cost in 2019. Furthermore, having your (maybe) 3rd string RB making more money than all your other RB's combined for 5-6 touches a game is crazy. This is not a popularity contest where we pay the good guys the most - it's a what have you done for me lately and by all metrics, Duke Johnson is a flop under this current deal and now a disgruntled employee wanting to be traded with no market for his grossly inflated contract.

Even if we looked at a comparable player you know who was released by the NYJ after signing Bell and signed a FA contract with Oakland, Isaiah Crowell, you'd see Crowell's cap hit for 2019 is $1,250,000. Crowell had 164 touches in 2018 - 77 more than Johnson. Crowell had 837 total yards - 207 yds more than Johnson. Crowell had 6 TD's compared to Duke's 3 and Crowell had 33 first downs compared to Johnson's 34. You really want to say that Duke Johnson is $1,800,000 more valuable to a team than Crowell?

Even with that - a contract is a contract and the Browns screwed this one up. However, when a player is grossly over paid and his production is 50% of what it was in the past and you demand a trade - he's a fool and needs to be cut and test the market. Then you'll find out his true worth and it's nowhere near the $3,050,000 cap hit the Brown's might take this year. Why do you think Duke is asking for a trade? Because if he gets cut he knows that with his production getting a contract over 1.2 million is a Disney dream. Duke needs to shut up and take his money but he won't and the Browns need to cut him.

Wrong, Gurley signed a 60 million contract extension in July 2018 that now has him under contract until 2023. The cost comparison was based on his cap hit to the LAR using his current extended deal.

That's what so disturbing in the fact that Duke Johnson is the highest paid per touch RB in the top 30 RB's in 2019 cap - and Gurley will make 9.2 million in 2019 think about it!

I think his issue is that he wants more touches. And he tends to be productive with the touches he gets. His problem with the Browns is twofold. First, he's not built to be a feature back, but is effective as a change of pace back. This limits his use in the running game. Second, his role as a receiver tends to be as a secondary or safety valve. When Baker gets in trouble, he still looks for his downfield options when most QBs are looking for their safety valves.

There are likely other teams where he would naturally get more touches than he gets in Cleveland. The Browns are talking like they have no plans to trade him (or haven't gotten the right deal.) If he's in Cleveland for the season, then I believe we will see him get more touches, not just to make him happy, but because he IS productive when he gets them.

I don't know. He's always been productive when they got him the ball, but under Freddie his touches have actually gone down.

But is that Freddie? Or is that Baker looking for the big strike rather than the check down?

In the end result, does it really matter? Baker isn't going to stop being Baker. And why would he?

My point is more about making Duke the primary a few more times a game.

My mistake ... And I thought that Duke made closer to 5 million per year.

Why? I kind of get the idea of wanting to keep Duke happy. However, it might make more sense to keep our better home run hitters as earlier options.

Duke is a good safety valve, but he's not necessarily a guy who is a threat to take it to the house on any play. If the home runs not there, take what they're giving underneath with Duke.

It might actually end up working that way next year. Teams try to take away OBJ and Callaway, leaving more room and work for Duke.

Of course we do have Chubb and will have Hunt for the safety valve work, too.

I thought the Rams extended Gurley and made him the highest paid RB in the league? I could be wrong.

With that said, I'm not sure that ranking dollars to touches is the best way to evaluate a player. LOL

None of which precludes "using him" to trade for Gerald McCoy - just saying. I heard that interview and I didn't hear John Dorsey say that we're not trading Duke Johnson.

We might. Or, we might not.


Dorsey says he is valuable. In which realm we will find out.

Didn’t want to start a thread as it really doesn’t effect us so I’ll add this here. Maybe another Duke trading partner?
Crowell tore his Achilles. Done for the season already.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26646171/raiders-crowell-hurt-done-season

I don't know. They are certainly two completely different styles of RB's.

Oakland just drafted a RB, but I'm not sure what his skill set is compared to Duke

I really just posted the link on this thread as to not start one just for an exBrowns’ injury.
I understand Duke and Crowell are very different backs. One would not replace the other.

When he pretended to take a poop and threw the ball into the stands during the Thursday Night game in Cleveland, I was done caring about Crowell. I wish he had torn both Achilles.

Yet, you defend the crotch-grabbing, flag-planting [sic,] stare-downing, trash-talking, Baker Mayfeld.

Go figure.

I hope we find a way to keep him, and also keep him as a guy who sees the field and gets touches.

He could be an unbelievably valuable part of this team for depth, for versatility.

But I totally understand him wanting to be dealt. I probably would too. There is an absolute log jam of backs and receivers on this team, and you just only get so many good years in your prime.

Well said.

What Baker did was as a Browns partisan .. What Crowell did was not.

So, your actions are not evaluated on their merit, but what side you represent?

Btw.........the failed flag planting thing happened in Columbus while he was an Okie.

Yeah, I'm right up Baker's ass. (Rolls eyes)

I've not been shy to point out things Baker does that I don't like, but he's our QB. The Browns quarterback.

don’t forget” touchdown throwing, game winning” when you are describing our quarterback.

I'm sorry. I thought lamp was talking about character traits. I am not arguing that Baker didn't play well last year. I'm just saying he is an ass.

I've told you this before: if he keeps balling out, I don't care if he plants a flag in Columbus, I don't care that he grabbed his crotch in college. If he ain't killing anybody, or raping some kid, or smashing his wife in the face, and as long as he's winning on Sunday, me and Bake are good.

I don't mind if you see it differently.

Edit: obviously that was for vers. I wasn't talking to myself lol.

No problem, lamp. I am not asking you to change. However, it was you who brought up Crow's antics. Not me. Thus, I feel my response was reasonable. You may not. That's fine, too.

But, I hope you aren't trying to tell me I am not entitled to my opinions?

I'm right there with you. He wears Orange and Brown. He hasn't raped anybody or punched any women. I love his moxy, his attitude, his leadership and his talent. His team mates love him. He's a winner. I'm not gonna whine if he gets a little lippy.

Crowell was a former Brown, who dissed our house.

I don't tell anyone, anywhere, ever, they aren't entitled to their opinions.

Well, you sure have been getting on my ass for my opinions. Later dude.

I don't see that I have been 'getting on your ass' about your opinions.

Duke for his career averages 1 TD per 41 touches.
he caught alot of checkdown passes in a very bad offense for 2 years.
practically every NFL team has a "Duke Johnson"
on their roster.
a RB that is reliable out of the backfield catch routes under 10 yards.
very over rated RB.
he couldnt even make the roster on the 3 other AFC North teams.
some around here even claimed last year Duke was the greatest slot receiver in NFL history.

Silliness.

I think that Duke is overrated by most on this board, but I agree w this, Turk. That statement was silliness.

Silliness yes.
what teams could he play for in the North?

not Cincy...they have a loaded backfield now.
Mixon Bernard Williams Anderson

Bmore...nope..they have Edwards and Ingram and they drafted a RB.

Pburgh...what they have on their roster is clearly better.

Which goes back to EXACTLY what I was trying to say. The Browns gave a RB that would not be a starter on any team in the NFL a top 10 RB contract. Now, going into 2019, we have the 20th most expensive cap hit at RB in Johnson for a player that will eventually be 3rd string at best on the roster. Combine that with the fact he and/or his agent are demanding a trade when no other team in the NFL is going to trade for that inflated contract that makes him the most expensive RB in the NFL based on salary per touch unless that team has a serious injury they can't fill from the practice squad.

There's a problem with a player that is so grossly overpaid for what he produces on the field and then demands a trade. Here's a question for you, the rumor was Philadelphia was interested in Johnson. Why wasn't that move made? Pretty simple, they were able to get Jordan Howard for a $2,025,000 cap hit this year. 5 times the RB that Duke Johnson is for $1,025,000 less in cap hit and Howard is a year younger than Duke.

The last 2 years compared:
Johnson 261 touches, 1576 total yds, 9 TD's
Howard 559 touches, 2313 total yds, 18 TD's

Duke Johnson is grossly overpaid and compared to other backs far less productive. That is the reason Duke is still on the Browns - who in their right mind would take that contract that has 3-years left on it - AND IT GETS WORST: Cap hit 2019 = $3,050,000, 2020 = $4,850,000, and 2021 = $5,900,000. Really, $5,900,000 for 7 or less touches per game at RB and he's demanding a trade? Really? What team in the NFL is going to take that contract - name one?

This situation in Tampa with McCoy could get interesting.

Sounds like bad blood between the parties involved.

He has reached that mark after nine years that organizations are looking for cheaper and younger. Even with solid production this when things get cold.

His money is not guaranteed. They could hold on to him till camp and then say we will pay you 7mil not 13mil. Good luck trying to find a team now.

I would offer them Duke straight up. See what happens.

Just saw the Bucs are signing Kerwynn Williams http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001...erwynn-williams
Don't know if this affects anything regarding a possible Duke/McCoy deal

Roster spots are soft for a big trade like this. Do you think KW signing eliminates Duke, or their desire to move McCoy?

Browns sign RB LJ Scott

by Josh Alper on May 13, 2019
PFT.com


The Browns made a change to their running back group on Monday.

They announced the signing of former Michigan State back LJ Scott. Devante Mays was placed on waivers in a corresponding move.

Scott left school after playing just four regular season games in 2018. He could have applied for a medical redshirt, but opted against that after playing in the Spartans’ Redbox Bowl loss to Oregon.

Scott ran for 2,855 yards and 25 touchdowns and caught 43 passes for 403 yards and two touchdowns during his time in East Lansing.

Nick Chubb, Kareem Hunt, Duke Johnson, Dontrell Hilliard and Trayone Gray are the other backs in Cleveland right now. Hunt will serve an eight-game suspension to open the year.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/05/13/browns-sign-rb-lj-scott/#comments

SCOUTING REPORT:
LJ SCOTT
MICHIGAN STATE
RB
RB22


40 Yard Dash
--
SECONDS

Bench Press
21
REPS

Vertical Jump
33.0
INCHES

Broad Jump
120.0
INCHES

3 Cone Drill
7.27
SECONDS

20 Yd Shuttle
4.34
SECONDS

60 Yd Shuttle
--
SECONDS


Player Bio
Scott was a top-100 overall prospect and top-10 running back recruit nationally after finishing as a finalist for Ohio's Mr. Football (2,819 yards, 38 TD rushing; 16-295 punt returns; 35-644 kick returns). He met high expectations by leading MSU in rushing in all three of his collegiate seasons. As a true freshman, he scored 11 times on the ground (146-699-4.8, one start in 14 games played on the year), including the game-winner against Iowa in the Big Ten Championship. Scott was an honorable mention All-Big Ten pick in 2016 (184-994-5.4, six TD rushing; 10-147, one TD receiving) and 2017 (201-898-4.5, eight TD rushing; 20-146-7.3, one TD receiving). He started 10 of 21 games as a sophomore and seven of 12 games as a junior. Scott could not stay healthy in 2018, as an ankle injury limited him to playing in just five games (all starts) and rushing for 264 yards with no touchdowns on 79 carries (3.3 average). He initially planned on redshirting so he could return in 2019, but ultimately decided to play in the team's bowl game and move on to the NFL.

Overview
Scott failed to hit the 1,000 yard mark during his career and had just one season averaging more than 4.8 yards per carry, but those numbers are not indicative of his NFL potential. Despite consecutive seasons of traffic jams in front of him, his vision and decisiveness has not been compromised. Scott is a volume ball-carrier whose pass-catching ability adds to his value as a potential starter, but he struggles to find explosive carries and might need to be part of a "thunder and lightning" pairing.

Strengths
Well-built with proportional frame
Plays with desired north-south demeanor as inside runner
Decisive with a burst gear to clear the hole
Keeps plays on preferred track rather than bouncing it wide
Allows blockers time to get to their work
Good timing for making cuts off his blockers right at their point of engagement
Efficient and makes the most of his run lanes
Light feet for a big back
Plus jump cut to elude wannabe tacklers on first and second levels
Loaded boxes and subpar run blocking forced him to be self-sufficient
Viable pass-catching option with potential to ramp up the volume

Weaknesses
Can run with better knee bend and pad level in space
Needs to run with more power and less finesse near the goal line
Just 14 rushing touchdowns over his last 340 carries
Takes some losses due to inability to accelerate away from early traffic
Speed to outrun flowing NFL linebackers to the corner is below par
Running style limits ability to create the explosive runs
Ball security needs to improve
Had both mental and physical busts in pass protection


https://www.nfl.com/prospects/lj-scott?id=32195343-4f50-2953-4890-3abf2b2a38d2

Hometown Boy From Youngstown

Looking at Scotts college numbers, I'm not expecting anything that more the Browns just wanting to take a look. For his build, he looks more like a WR, than a hB.

I saw quite a bit of him at Hubbard since my boy played against him. After watching him in high school I was disappointed with his career at Michigan State. I hope he can turn it around as a pro but I’m thinking it will be for another team.

I remember LJ Scott being compared to Le'Veon Bell following his sophomore year and being projected to go between the second and third round.

I'm not sure where he went wrong. I quite like his game but I can't put my finger on why he's fallen so far out of favour.

Good news. Glad to see him working.

Fumbling issues, was hurt all last year and a 4.6 40 at his pro day.

I thought he should've came out last year and that the Browns would be lucky to pick him up. That said I think he'll still make a good back and hope he sticks with the team going into the season. I think the kid can be a bulldozer.

Fair enough.

I think I underrate athletic ability in NFL backs. I was a big fan of Samaje Perine coming out. His rookie season was below average and last year he had just 8 carries for 32 yards.

Perine is a different beast to Scott, but he's similarly a big back with limited speed and agility. Perhaps that style of player is just no longer for this league.

I hope for the best with Scott, though. I feel he's got a natural aptitude for the position, and he is so much fun to watch when he's hot, so hopefully we can see a version of him that is healthy and finding his peak physical abilities.

I'm damn sure he's a quality addition for a guy who'd currently be 4th or 5th on the depth chart. A hungry hometown guy with an electric highlight reel is never a bad option to have fighting it out for a roster spot.

glad Duke will be here

I'm not surprised, Duke's a pro and I expected him to be at OTAs.

I expected it as well. I don't expect anybody drawing pay to be a whiney malcontent. Show up, do the job, or quit.

As the Rock so eloquently puts it, "Know your role." Duke clearly understands his.

Does he?

We don't know what his role will be - or even if he'll be a Brown next season.

His role will continue to be what it has been. He'll "back-up" Chubb, but see the field plenty more than a usual back-up as a rusher and receiver. I'm sure Freddie will have him all over the field at various points.

I hope he is understanding that he's not a feature back - few guys are, and Duke isn't at that level, talented though he may be.

No matter where Duke goes, he's going to be splitting snaps with someone. In Tampa it would be with Ronald Jones and Peyton Barber.

At least here, he's valued and in an offense that is very well built to utilize his strengths. Going to be hard to contain Njoku, Odell and Callaway while still accounting for Duke.

I read cogent comments like this, and my head still swims. I'm still trying to wrap my head around CLE's new reality.

Think about it: on this date just one year ago, the Cleveland Browns were 1-31.

An embarrassment of riches.

_______________

I don't know if a Duke trade is imminent, but I suspect that he'll be a Brown until just before the trade deadline. I hope he stays, but if he doesn't...
... Kareem Hunt steps into his CLE backfield role. **Fressssssh**... with freakish onfield upside- just in time for a playoff push.

For the past 2 years, I've lamented that Duke wasn't used enough/properly. I hope the coaches/coordinators have put together a package for Duke, and feature him in this year's O scheme. It would be the smart play:

1. He helps CLE put points on the board in games 1-8
2. It burnishes his trade cache, if a trade/deal comes to pass.
3. If he's here as a 'season-long solid,' he gives this st00pidly stacked O a midrange/3rd down weapon that simply can't be defensed.

I fully expect CLE to have a Chubb/Duke package firmly established for Game One. What I fantasize is that CLE additionally has a Hunt/Duke package ready for games 8-16, when Chubb needs a blow.

Mind = bent.

Duke was used a lot when Hue was in charge of the offense. I have posted the numbers multiple times comparing his touches w/similar backs in the league. It was just another excuse for some to complain.

Last year, neither Haley or Freddie gave Duke a lot of opportunities. I don't think Freddie will give Duke more touches [should he still be a member of the team] this year considering we acquired OBJ.

I see this said a lot but when has it ever been true? When the Crow left we immediately signed Hyde. When Hyde's role was reduced we had Chubb move into the starting position. When Freddie took over the O Duke's role was diminished even more than before.

Why would anyone now suddenly feel Duke holds the second seat in the starting position when that's never been true before and wasn't true once Freddie took over? It appears that during one off season some fans feel Duke's role on this team has suddenly changed from what it has been his entire career.

"A year ago."

I wake up daily and have to pinch myself. Just read today:

Browns dominate PFF’s top 25 players under the age of 25. The top four are Baker, Ward, Myles and Hunt. Njoku and Chubb are 22 and 23.

Hard to wrap my mind around what has happened.

Even after Freddie took over, I think he had to mainly use Hue and Haleys play book, maybe Duke just wasn't in the plays?

Now with more time to make their own, maybe he will be involved more, and maybe they have discussed all this with him.

Yet his usage went down under Freddie. You may be right that the O will change enough to include him more. But I think everyone would have to conclude that would only be for half the season even if it does happen.

Once you have the one two punch of Chubb and Hunt there will be nothing but some scarce leftovers for Duke.

My point was that if Duke is used as the "back up feature back", it will be a role he has never had during his entire career. And for people to state that as some kind of a fact is a reach at best based on nothing more than pure conjecture.

My point on this was that Freddie wasn't using HIS playbook, but still using Haley's(maybe with some tweaks), so maybe Duke just wasn't in Haley's designed plays.

Not easy to install a new playbook mid-season.

You are still missing the underlying point. At no time in his career has Duke ever been the back up feature back. While they may have been using the same playbook, his opportunities still went down. So it was decided to use the plays Duke contributed in less, not more.

Now we can use maybes and possibly until the cows come home. But the evidence to date strongly suggest that Duke is not the back up feature back for the Browns and we know Freddie used less plays for Duke than Hue did.

If I were to compare Duke to someone on our team of old it would be Eric Metcalf. Albeit, he's a more prolific returner than Duke, but I think on offense they are somewhere similar.

Who was the feature back when Metcalf was here, Hoard? Vardell? Mack? I don't know that Metcalf was ever destined to be a feature back. However, I think if the feature back were injured, he could fill in if need be. If Chubb were injured last year, I'd imagine Duke would be the fill in. In that regard, I'd say he's the back-up to the feature back. I'm not calling him a feature back, but he could assume the role in a pinch if need be if the feature back went down with injury.

There's a role for Duke. If you don't use him to his strengths he's not worth the price tag. If you use him more, perhaps he's worth his price tag. You could say he's over-priced/over-paid or that he's under-utilized and you would probably be correct.

Like Metcalf, I think Duke could excel in a receiving role. When Metcalf left here, Atlanta used him more as a receiver. Duke would be a pretty good slot guy.

That's my stance on it.

I'm not sure at 5'9" and 210# that any coach that's been here, including Freddie sees Duke as our feature back. It's possible, yet it's never been done. I don't believe they currently see Duke in the role of feature back should an injury happen to Chubb.

And I really don't discount Duke being valuable as a WR but when you look at our current WR unit, there's not much to indicate Duke would in any way be a preferred target to several of the WR's currently on the team. I doubt there will be enough passes thrown to keep our current WR's all happy much less throwing duke into the mix.

I mean who will they decrease balls thrown to to give Duke opportunities? Calloway? Higgins? Landry? OBJ? Njoku?

That's where I think the entire "Duke as a WR" debate falls flat. It's not that he doesn't have some talent in that department. The problem becomes the way this roster has been constructed, there simply aren't enough balls to see where Duke fits into the mix.

Because the point was underlying.

I agree with you, I was just pointing out a reason why his usage might not have increased "just" because Freddie took over.

Seems many people assume, not necessarily point to you, that when Freddie took over that it was Freddies system, and I have my doubts about that. I think Freddie worked with the system in place as best as he could. But was better at picking which plays better suited the players.

Not really a knock on Freddie or Duke, just that the situation dictated much of the events that took place.

Maurice Jones Drew, Ray Rice, Alfred Morris, Frank Gore, Devonta Freeman, Doug Martin, CJ Anderson are all running backs who are 5'9. Barry Sanders was 5'9. To say it's never been done is preposterous.

Huh?

Off the top of my head, I believe Warrick Dunn and Willie Parker were similar in size and I would have considered them featured backs. I also know Jones-Drew was a little fella... I could probably do some research and find a few more that would debunk your "never been done" claim.

Where did I say it's never been done? I didn't. It's not common in the AFC North and never has been. And while you are finding RB's over a long period of time, it's not the norm. It's also true that in every case, we have found a different feature back while Duke was still on the roster.

Crow replaced with Hyde replaced by Chubb and now we've added Hunt. At any point in time had any HC we've had or currently have considered Duke a feature back the opportunity presented itself to use him as such.

Dorsey drafting Chubb is even further evidence they did not see Duke as a feature back. Look, I don't make the news, I just report it.

#ShortQBSyndrome

Sorry, I see the confusion now. I meant it had never been done with Duke. He's never been seen as the feature back here. They've always found a replacement for the feature back position while Duke has been on our roster. If they had seen him as a feature back, they had no need to sign Hyde for that role. They had no need to draft Chubb for that role and no need to sign Hunt. But they did.

Over a long period of time? Besides MJD, Ray Rice and Barry Sanders, all those guys are playing in the NFL today. And are good. It's not like I'm out here going through the annals of history finding insignificant dudes who played with Frank Tarkenton. I would hazard to say all those dudes are pushing near 80 yards per game this season.

Hell, I don't think that Duke is a feature back, although I think he could be. However, I think he's much more talented than just that.

I'm also not so sure you're right about it not being done often in the AFC North. I'm not going to google it, but I do remember the Bengals and Steelers having good short running backs over the past decade. It may not have been common in the AFC Central, but not so sure in the AFC North...

Who do you think is not a good RB? Frank Gore? Devonte Freeman? Alfred Morris? Doug Martin? CJ Anderson?

I'm not sure what you mean.

Duke's rushing attempts were low but he was still 4th on the team in targets last year. His targets and receiving production slightly increased in the second half of the year, and his rushing production increased with a slight decline in attempts - which I'm guessing had more to do with Chubb's success than Kitchens not wanting to utilize him.

Duke has always been the second guy. Even with Hyde and Chubb, Duke got more opportunities behind Hyde than Chubb did. He was the second guy behind Crow, now he is behind Chubb.

So, yeah, I'll stand by it that your typical "back-up" doesn't average over 60 targets on the year. His rushing totals were down, but Nick Chubb is a damn superstar put up almost 1,000 yards with significant playing time in just 10 games. I know who I'd want running the rock.

I don't think anyone's thinking his role has changed - especially not in a post that was literally saying that he needs to understand he's very much dependent on playing a role.

Well it was you who said "he'll back up Chubb".

The back up would be your feature back if an injury to your starting RB occurred. So far Duke has never stepped in to start. So if that were to happen, his role will have changed.

This team has always managed to find a replacement back to fill the starting role rather than turn to Duke for that job. I don't think that's any different now.

According to https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/running-back/ Duke is the 11th highest paid RB. If you actually think his salary in any way lines up with his production? Houston, we have a problem.

His salary is probably why he hasn't been traded yet and he's still on the roster.

Were trying to win a SB ... Duke is very good at what he does and ADDS VALUE TO THIS TEAM ... Hunt is absent for the first 8 games until he comes back Duke is apparently needed or he’d be gone ... i said all along this was more about how we felt about Hilliard than Duke and it appears the COMBINATION of:

- how good Duke is at what he does
- our faith in Hilliard
- Hunt being out for 10 games

Led KJ to the following conclusion

his value to us > what we were offered

Now there’s some analytics for ya ... *L* ...

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact he's very highly paid with production that doesn't match his paycheck.

In case you missed it, nobody wants to pay him that much. That makes it hard to trade him. He isn't that productive when compared to his pay. If he doesn't go anywhere it's because teams won't pay that price tag. Not because we wouldn't trade him if we could.

We're not talking about Landry. Let's keep the thread on track, please.

Duke is a specialist, he's a change of pace back and a receiver out of the backfield similar to what Darren Sproles is/was. Sproles is getting up there in age (36 in another month) but his contract before last season's 1 year deal paid him $4 mill a year on average (with Philly) and back in 2009/2010 he was making about $7 mill a year under the franchise tag (with the Chargers) and his yearly rushing/receiving numbers are similar to Duke's.

Way to keep it relative.

His stats with the Saints outweigh anything Duke has ever done by a mile. It's odd that you mention the one franchise tag year as some guide as to what he was paid. Because we both know that didn't reflect his actual contract when he was signed.

j/c:

I thought Hunt was only out for 8 games rather than 10?

I'm also really glad to see that Barry Sanders is still in the NFL. And Ray Rice and MJD are too?

Anyway, I have no idea what the Browns will do or even what they should do. It's a tough situation because of Hunt's suspension.

On one hand, keeping Duke would be smart because he is a good change of pace back and could help fill the void if Chubb gets hurt early on.

On the other hand, I don't see a role for Duke once Hunt is reinstated because the latter can do everything Duke can do---only better. There is also the risk of Duke being a distraction. That isn't an insult against Duke because he should feel he deserves to play.

Tough situation and I don't know what the correct answer is.

Sproles yearly rushing and receiving totals are nearly identical to Duke's. Sproles in the 10 years he played most of the season averaged 325 yds rushing and 52 catches for 457 yds. Duke is averaging 322 yds rushing and 59 catches for 543 yds.

We agree then ....

Figured it would go downhill from that point on so I quit reading there ... *L*

We just disagree as to why he’s here .... but i love how u frame it and make it look so simple ... its all about the money Diam, quit muddying up the water ... *L*

Duke brings value to this team Pit and he would bring value to a lot of other teams .... his average salary means DIDDLY ... its all about the remaining guaranteed and what his cap hit is this year as far as a trade goes ....

Go get those numbers .... u know ... THE ONES THAT MATTER and are actually relevant to the convo, then we can have a chat about how much salary may have played a part in it ....

Educate me Pit ...

I know you wish to ignore the fact that San Diego signed him based on what he did in New Orleans. Where he had 604, 667 and 710 receiving yards respectively. We have never used Duke to that degree and if last year was any indication, we never will.

So tell me, who is Duke going to take reps away from? OBJ? Landry? Calloway? Higgins? Njoku?

So at best, Duke would be the sixth option. Yeah, sometimes one has to look at the way a team is built when looking at the value of a player.

It really is pretty simple. I'll pose the same thing to you I posed to dawg 66.

So tell me, who is Duke going to take reps away from? OBJ? Landry? Calloway? Higgins? Njoku?

So at best, Duke would be the sixth option. Yeah, sometimes one has to look at the way a team is built when looking at the value of a player. You see, when we didn't have much in the way of good WR's Duke had more value. Now? There's not enough touches to go around. I'm pretty sure you get that.

Your situation determines a players value.

Riddle me that one.

Duke and Landry run the same route tree if we're being honest with ourselves. One gets paid 15 million to do it, the other gets paid 5...

What? I'm not getting this take at all.

Duke's a good receiving back. We haven't seen how he is as a receiver at all. Landry is usually D'ed up by corners and safeties. Duke gets motioned to WR and gets D'ed up by LBs.

I like Duke Johnson a lot. He's a very versatile back. He can do everything. And he's very good at catching the ball. But he's not Jarvis Landry. Nor would he put up the production of Jarvis Landry if he was moved into that position.

And, running the same route tree? Nope. I haven't seen that at all

Dukes a RB ... why would he take reps from WR’s or TE’s? ... that is a very device like post ...

If u meant targets devi errrr Pit .... are u suggesting were NEVER GOING TO THROW TO OUR RB’S ... that sure will hinder our O ...

I asked u to educate me ... not present different spin ....

Agreed. That's almost as bad as saying Barry Sanders is still playing in the league. LOL

Because he runs the same route tree as Landry if we are being honest w/ourselves.

Actually Duke lined up at WR quite a bit between 2015 and 2017 and played very well. I remember that the Steelers had Joe Haden cover him in the 2017 opener.

Jarvis and Duke do best against linebackers and slot corners. If you look at their stats, Duke actually outperforms Jarvis when it comes to yards per target. The next gen stats are still lacking on Duke (only 6 games logged), but you can see his similarities with Jarvis. They do their best work running short routes to the inside.

But yes, the target was meant to be rather tongue in cheek considering the idea that players were "over valued" contract wise.

But it's not as dumb as saying you'd rather have Cam Erving than Odell Beckham Jr and Olivier Vernon

Funny, I thought yesterday we agreed to ignore each other. I couldn't find the post, maybe I was dreaming that you turned a leaf and wouldn't start fights on this forum. Oh well.

You liked your own post, dude.

I have fat fingers and a zoomed out screen

I like a lot of posts I don't mean to!

Sproles was drafted by San Diego in 2005 he didn't go to New Orleans until 2011 and who says Duke has to take reps away from anybody? New Orleans made it work with Jimmy Graham at TE, Lance Moore, Marques Colston, and Kenny Stills at WR plus Pierre Thomas catching passes out of the backfield along with Sproles. If the O is successful enough there should be plenty of reps to go around.

History tells me that this post will probably upset you and this will turn contentious, but history also tells me that Freddie already has a history w/Duke and that he didn't utilize him all that much. Why would that change after we added OBJ?

I am not taking sides in this debate, but making such a strong projection w/out considering the recent past is a bit odd.

I stated my opinion a bit earlier on Duke and the Browns. I don't know what the Browns will do or even should do. I can see reasons for keeping him and reasons for trading him.

Hunt is out for 8 games and Duke can help during that time. His role would also increase should Chubb get hurt early on. We could be hurting if we trade Duke too early. Also, his trade value might not be so high due to his contract.

On the other hand, Duke's usage might dry up completely once Hunt is reinstated because Hunt can do everything Duke can do. And he can do it at a higher level. Duke may also become a distraction in the locker room and that would not be good for a young team.

It's hard for me to understand how people are developing such strong opinions either way because there are legitimate points on both sides of the ledger.

Like U, I can see both sides .... valid argument both ways .... but i also see a very clear and logical solution that IMO is definetly the way to go ....

For at least the first 8 games Duke is our 3rd down and our #2 back ... i don’t see how thats debatable (not that anyone’s debating it) ... and seeing as how were positioned to win the super bowl now you don’t leave yourself naked at the RB position for AT LEAST 1/2 the season .... its football, If Chubb god forbid gets hurt all of a sudden Duke still has a roll with us for the last 8 ....

IF u get to week 8 and Chubb’s still healthy ... then u see what u can get for Duke as the asking price from us should be lower as our need for him will have been mostly eliminated ....

Duke may only get 3 or 4 touches a game but as u well know EVERY TOUCH in a game is huge .... it seems some on here want to poo poo Duke’s value because of usage .... witch I don’t agree with U on when it comes to what Freddie did with him last year meaning he won’t get many touches again this year ... IMO U can throw last year out the window for a few reasons ....

- Freddie didn’t come close to installing his entire O ... no way did they have the time
- this is a much different team with much different skill position players and a much much much much different D ...
- Monken will have some input also ...

Like U, I had no idea what we were going to do ... i was hoping he’d be here for the reasons I stated above but i had no clue and would have been fine either way .... i always said it hinged on how we felt about Hilliard and what we were offered ... we obviously didn’t get offered enough ....

For now it looks like we have Duke for the first 8 weeks and thats a good thing as U can never have enough good football players and Duke is one of those ...

It was just another feeble attempt to take a shot at me cause him and device and Memphis and Deputy believe VG is overpaid .... nothing more, nothing less ... simply a shot across my bow ... they make foolish statements like CHS just did all the time to try and defend there menZaesque premise that VG is overpaid ...

Its quite amusing ...

Good post.

I do disagree w/you that you can throw last year out the window. I think last year's usage is more relevant that what Sproles did in New Orleans. LOL

I'm not positive, but I don't think Deputy is saying Landry is overpaid. He loves him some Sashi, but Dep actually knows football. I don't think he would make that statement.

U win ... *L* ....and me saying to throw last year out the window was a bit harsh .. it does have some relevance, i just don’t think its near as big a factor as u do ... and honestly part of that is because he’s still here ... *L* ...

PIT

I went and educated myself cause i wanted to be informed and not be talking out my ass like some ... ...

Dukes salary this year is 1.8 mill ... signing bonus of 750k witch is pro-rated from last year ... 400k roster and 100k workout bonus ...

So the most a team would be liable for if they traded for Duke is 2.3 million and it could be as low as 1.8 million ..... not sure where that ranks as far as the cost of aquiring RB’s goes but it sure is a hell of a lot less than the irrelivent BS ass # u threw out there ....

Thanks for motivating me to educate myself ... ...

Someone recently posted that Duke is the 11th highest paid RB in the league, per SportTrac. Pretty sure it was 11th, if not it was close.

No offense to Duke, he is a nice player, but that is ridiculous. He has never been the feature back. He is no where near the best RB on this team, and starting week 9 he will be no where near a top 2 RB on this team. Hunt is a top 5 RB in the league.

The number of touches he has had is a documented fact.

When we talk of overpaid players, Duke should be part of the conversation. It's likely the biggest factor why he is still on this team. No one wants to pick that up.

21st in team cap hit
22nd in base salary
25th in total cash for 2019
11th in average salary
17th guaranteed at signing
16th practical guaranteed
13th in overall contract value

His contract is nothing for a team that would want him. They would be responsible for the base salaries remaining and not the prorated stuff on the books for the Browns. And cutting him in 2020 would cost a team nothing compared to what teams do when cutting players and eating dead cap. At $3.6M as base for Duke in 2020, I don't see why teams would want to cut him at that salary, anyways. It's a great price for what Duke can bring to a team.

And here is what the Browns would be on the hook for if he is traded post June 1st.

2019 Dead Cap: $750,000
2020 Dead Cap: $1,500,000
2019 Cap Savings: $2,300,000

It's nothing. I don't see how anyone can make a serious argument about money being the reason Duke is here and not already traded.

Compensation being offered by other teams isn't enough? Yeah That could be a reason. Or it could be the fact Kitchens and Dorsey want him here in 2019, like they've said repeatedly. Or the Browns don't want to do anything while Hunt is suspended and leave themselves with their pants down if something were to happen to Chubb. There are more logical reasons IMO than the money route.

I think what was actually stated was that Duke's role will continue as before.

What all are expecting is that we will go spread a lot more with Freddie and that Duke will hold that role whether it is expanded? I think it will only for the fact we will be having more plays per game on offense than last season. The play book will probably be Duke and then possibly his role will slowly get taken over by Hunt??? I do think we will trade Duke unless he becomes so much better due to the space created with the passing attack we would have.

As for the reported obvious lack of use under Kitchens as opposed to Haley.
Games 1-8 under Haley:
Rushing attempts 22, Yards 107 TDs 0
Receptions 20, yards 203 TDs 0

Games 9-16 under Kitchens:
Rushing Attempts 18, yards 94 TDs 0
Receptions 27, yards 226 TDs 3

His rushing attempts declined but he pretty much was not a running consideration.

But his receptions increased 35% if my math is correct...lol

Now as stated is that because our offense went more spread and Duke actually had increased opportunities on the field???

So I don't see his role being expanded but I do see that his role will be utilized more due to extended series and drives.

Duke Johnson is "over paid" until you realize that most of the good RBs in the NFL are on their rookie contracts and the market is cratered because of it. Just because he makes 4 million more than Alvin Kamara, doesn't mean you'll be able to find an Alvin Kamara quality player to come play for a million dollars a year.

I don't know if Duke's touches will go up, down, or stay the same with Kitchens as the HC but what I was trying to point out is that Sproles a similar player with similar yearly stats was being paid close to what Duke is making so there is a demand for a player like Duke and his pay is commensurate with his skill set.

Duke has been not only our best RB but also our best receiving option. Unfortunately for him this is no longer true. He is our 3rd best back and now our 5th or 6th best receiving option

I love Duke and we shouldn't give him away but it would be best for him and us if we find a trade partner and sooner the better.

I think someone mentioned this, but Haley uses primarily one back in his offense. Hue constantly said we need to get him the ball more.

Dorsey signed Duke to his current contract that some are considering as being "overpaid." Perhaps Dorsey knows Duke is a good player, but our coaches are not giving him the opportunity.

Yet he lines up in the WR position and had more receptions than carries. But keep reaching.

That is cheap for a guy with his ability... And I think he has way more ability than has been on display here...

Yes, it is cheap. And yes, I think many people think he has far better ability relative to the price and wish he was used more.

At whose expense, Chubb's? Ummm, no thanks.

At whose expense on the offense?

Is he a better RB than Chubb? Is he a better WR than Landry? OBJ? Callaway? Higgins? Is he more useful than Njoku?

Yes, he can fill in when Chubb needs a blow ..... but beyond that? There's really only minimal opportunities for him. He had 87 touches last year, and he might match that next year, as the offense gains additional plays by being more productive .... but I don't see him expanding his role a great deal.

Depth matters because injuries happen. It is likely that more than one of the guys you mentioned above will be injured next season.

We are entering another batch of uncharted territory...we are debating/lamenting that we have TOO MUCH talent to spread the ball around on Offense. What have we become?

I'd agree with all of this. What we're not adding in is the compensation we'd be offered in a trade.


Me, I prefer to play it safe. I doubt the compensation we'd get for Duke Johnson matches the importance of having him here if Nick Chubb was to go down.


We're going for it this year. And I just don't think we have the luxury of letting Duke go before Week 8.

It doesn't necessarily have to be at the expense of anyone. There are ways to put him on the field with those other players you mentioned and increase productivity, because when given the ball, Duke has proven to be one of the most efficient players in the NFL. Could that efficiency go down with more opporunities to make plays? Sure. There is only one way to find out.

That's making the assumption that Duke would be the one to replace Chubb as the primary RB due to injury. Yet the Browns have always found another starting RB rather than allow that role to be filled by Duke.

And I did not respond to that idea. I responded to:

"Yes, it is cheap. And yes, I think many people think he has far better ability relative to the price and wish he was used more."

And asked where he would be used more, and whose reps he would take.

Now one thing that could reasonably happen is that we have more offensive reps as we become a more prolific offense, and Duke, along with everyone else, sees more opportunities come his way. Our opponents ran roughly 100 more plays than we did last year. If we increase there, he could see a few more chances.

You're looking at this the wrong way. It's not about "reps" and it's a 1:1 thing relative to another player. You can put Duke almost anywhere on the field. That should be leveraged, and to a certain extent it has in the past. I subscribe it should be leveraged more.

Of course it does. You have to remove someone else in order for Duke to take the field.

Duke does have value as a backup RB, who gets about 50 carries/year, and a receiving/pass blocking RB. However, taking a more productive WR off the field in order to give him chances, is kinda crazy.

I'm not sure where people are missing the math here. There are only so many touches in a game. You divide those touches between the players you line up on the field. If you give any one player more touches, you're taking away touches from another player. Pretty simple really.

Thanks for gathering all the RELEVANT, PERTINENT contract INFO that actually is pertinent to the conversation ...

Appreciate it ....

Well, that's if it's accurate.....

In 2019, Johnson will earn a base salary of $1,800,000, a roster bonus of $400,000 and a workout bonus of $100,000, while carrying a cap hit of $3,050,000 and a dead cap value of $4,050,000.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/duke-johnson-16801/

His actual compensation package for this coming season is 2.3 million.

j/c:

Browns running back Duke Johnson Jr. can't find the field despite high-end efficiency

The Cleveland Browns are failing to utilize one of their deadliest weapons and as a result, the offense is not just leaving points off the scoreboard- they’re leaving ’em on the bench.

Duke Johnson Jr. has been in the top-10 among running backs in both elusive rating and yards per route run from the slot every single season he has been in the NFL. He has also led the Browns in receiving grade in two of his first three seasons. This season, Johnson is averaging 8.33 yards per touch, which ranks second among running backs with at least 30 touches in 2018.

Despite his proven efficiency, Johnson is on pace for just 88 touches this season. He ranks 58th among the 59 running backs with 30-plus touches in touches per game (5.5), just a few tenths of a touch ahead of the (not so) great Raiders running back, Doug Martin.

Meanwhile, Carlos Hyde is seeing 52 percent of the Browns’ offensive snaps, 70 percent of their rushing attempts and 1.5 targets per game.



The Browns’ team receiving grade of 56.9 ranks 31st among NFL teams, and they don’t have any receivers with a receiving grade of higher than 63.5. Yet, one of their most explosive pass-catching options is seeing career-low touches by a wide margin. Simply put, the Browns are making a huge mistake.

Some may argue that Johnson is better suited as a change-of-pace back who can’t handle a large workload and still be successful or healthy. However, Johnson has never needed many touches to make a large impact because he is so incredibly efficient with the touches he does get. He averaged just 9.75 touches per game last season, yet he made a huge impact for the Browns as their highest-graded receiver while also posting a 67.4 elusive rating, the seventh-highest mark among running backs with at least 50 carries.

Last season was arguably the best of Johnson’s career, as he earned a receiving grade of 89.4, which was good for fourth among running backs and 10th among all offensive players. Johnson’s 2.05 yards per route run was sixth-best among qualifying running backs, and his 2.47 yards per route run from the slot also ranked sixth.

Johnson earned a 78.2 overall grade, which was tied for the seventh-best mark among all running backs with at least 75 carries. His success in 2017 was enough to earn a contract from new general manager John Dorsey for an average of $5.2 million annually, which has him currently slotted as the 11th highest-paid running back in the NFL.

Johnson’s remarkable efficiency and ability to create yards through his elusiveness in the open field were not just a one-year-fluke, either. 2016 was statistically the worst season of Johnson’s young career, but the dual-threat back still averaged 1.26 yards per route run from the slot and 1.86 yards per route run in total, both marks ranking in the top-10 among qualifying running backs. He also averaged 4.9 yards per attempt as a runner and amassed 514 receiving yards as a receiver. More impressively, he generated a 72.5 elusive rating on top of a 34.6 breakaway percentage, which ranked sixth and 15th, respectively.

Going back to Johnson’s impressive rookie season (2015), he finished with a receiving grade of 83.5 and ranked inside the top-10 in both slot yards per route run (2.94) and elusive rating (53.8) among qualifying running backs. His 72.0 overall grade was the 12th-best mark for running backs with at least 100 rushing attempts.

It’s no secret that Browns receivers have struggled this season. Mayfield has the highest percentage of dropped passes in the league, as his top-four receiving options have already dropped 15 passes on the season and have been faulted six interceptions. Rashard Higgins going down gives the coaching staff no excuse not to incorporate Johnson into the offense more going forward. There is a clear need for receiving ability on the field, yet Johnson is on pace for just 26 routes from the slot on the season, whereas he ran 66 last year.

Johnson should push for more carries, as well, and there is a myriad of metrics to support that. Hyde has done the best he can, but he has been a very inefficient player this season for the Browns. Hyde’s 14.4 breakaway percentage ranks 52nd among 58 running backs, his 33.7 elusive rating ranks 43rd and his 2.38 average yards after contact is 50th of 69 qualifying running backs. By comparison, Johnson has a breakaway percentage of 34.2 (18th), a 137.8 elusive rating (2nd) and 5.05 average yards after contact (2nd). Johnson makes more of the touches that he is given and is clearly the better receiver of the two backs, yet Hyde still runs an average of 14 routes per game.

The gross misuse of Johnson by the Browns this season is inexcusable. At his best, Johnson is one of the most efficient and elusive dual-threat options in the game. He put up a career year last season and was rewarded with a contract that paid him like one of the top-10 backs in the NFL. Oddly enough, his touches have been cut in half as a result.

The constant dropped passes, lack of quality receiving options and mountains of data all suggest that it’s time to give Johnson more touches; it’s time for the Browns to truly unleash one of their deadliest offensive weapons.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pr...-end-efficiency

----------------------------------------------------------------

Duke Johnson Jr. is one of the most efficient backs in football, and he’s finally getting the ball

Under the helm of Hue Jackson and Todd Haley in Weeks 1-8, fourth-year running back Duke Johnson Jr. was an afterthought in a Cleveland Browns offense that was desperate for playmakers. He averaged just 5.25 touches per game through the first eight weeks of the season, ranking outside the top-60 NFL running backs.

New leadership, however, took a different approach to Johnson’s involvement in the game plan in Week 9, leading to season-highs for the former Miami (Fla.) product across the board.

Dissatisfied with his offensive-minded coaches, Jackson and Haley, Browns general manager John Dorsey fired the duo following the team’s blowout loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers in Week 8 and promoted running backs coach Freddie Kitchens to offensive coordinator. Kitchens moved quickly in getting Johnson the football in his first game pulling strings.

After averaging 3.5 targets per game in Weeks 1-8, Johnson caught all nine of his targets – a week-high among running backs – for 78 yards, four first downs and two touchdowns. Two of his receptions went for 15-plus yards, and he totaled 33 of his 78 receiving yards (42.3%) after contact. He also forced two missed tackles and picked up 14 yards after contact on his lone rushing attempt on the day.



Johnson’s two-touchdown, 86-yard performance was in a losing effort against the Kansas City Chiefs, but it’s a sign of brighter things to come for him and the Browns’ offense.

With his efficient outing in Week 9, Johnson now ranks first among all NFL running backs with 50-plus touches in percentage of touches resulting in a first down or touchdown (42.3%) and second in yards per touch (7.62). In terms of creating yards on his own, he ranks fourth among the same group of backs in yards after contact per touch (3.56) and T-12th in forced missed tackles per touch (0.23) – two impressive figures for a 5-foot-9, 210-pound back with limited touches.

Johnson’s 2018 campaign isn’t an outlier, either.

Among backs with 300-plus touches since the start of the 2015 season, Johnson ranks tied for first in forced missed tackles per touch (0.24), fourth in yards per touch (6.45) and third in percentage of touches resulting in a first down or touchdown (32.7%).

Additionally, Johnson leads all backs in total receptions of 15-plus yards with 48 dating back to his rookie season (2015), nine more than any other running back in that span. He also ranks second in yards per route run (1.75) among the 33 running backs with 600-plus receiving snaps from 2015-18, another testament to his receiving ability.

Dorsey signed Johnson to a three-year contract extension prior to the season because he understood his value. Jackson and Haley obviously didn’t; Kitchen seemingly does. With strong early returns from Johnson in Week 9, expect Cleveland to turn a one-week anomaly into a week-to-week norm in regards to his usage moving forward.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pr...etting-the-ball

Here's a crazy thought that I haven't seen floated, yet:


The trade deadline every year is Week 10.
Hunt comes back after Week 8.

We can keep Duke, keep Hunt (who doesn't use a roster spot during his suspension), and keep Chubb... then, we showcase Hunt in Week 9 and trade him to the highest bidder for premium picks in 2020. His suspension will be done and he'll be fresh; there will be at least one team looking for a premier RB by that point. His value will be high.

LOL, maybe we even trade him to Kansas City, getting a draft pick for a guy they released

...

Are u seriously going there ... bro .... sometimes your just better off keeping your mouth shut ... u know that i know that u know that i know that u know way more about football than for me to believe u honestly believe your above post ...

You tried to claim he was simply a RB. But he also lines up as a WR and he does have more receptions than carries. I don't make the news, I just report it.

Maybe we can take some pass attempts away from Landry to give them to Duke. Or maybe OBJ, Hollywood, Njoku or Calloway.

Or maybe we could just admit that Duke is actually a sixth option that really doesn't carry a lot of weight in this O.

I can’t believe some of u are being this obtuse ... WTF ...

Does Chubb take every snap at RB and get every touch for the first 8 weeks? .... do we no longer have a place on this team for a 3rd down/change of pace back, is that no longer a role on this team? Its been eliminated as a position until week 9 ...

How did this become an argument about “at whose expense” or there’s only so many balls to go around ... ya .. your right ... but guess what SUPERSEDES the above BS in this convo anyhow .... actual positions on the team and the fact NO TEAM gives one RB all the reps and/or touches ... so for now DUKE HAS A ROLE FOR AT LEAST 8 WEEKS ....

What is so hard to understand about that? .... no team plays just one running back .... NO TEAM ...

If he doesn’t have a role please tell me who is our 3rd down back or please tell me why u think we will no longer have one ....

U guys are beyond reaching ...

Great idea ... very logical and makes all the sense in the world ....

Its all ready been floated ... its part of my solution on this very thread on the previous page I believe .... *L* ...

Only flaw in our logic is that over the first 8 weeks of the year were giving Chubb all the RB reps and touches, when he comes out he will be replaced with a WR or TE ... at least thats what Pit’s selling ... ...

I'm glad Duke is the only other RB on the roster. But yeah, there are only so many balls thrown. So if you already have five better receiving options, you will be taking away that option from the other five when you throw Duke the ball.

I thought you were really good at that 1+1=2 thing?

Who is trading premium picks for a running back with one year on his contract?

Pitt, Players have to rest, different players play in different situations and sets, plus the better the offense does they will be on the field more and there will be more snaps to go around so Duke may not be taking snaps away from anyone. Do we not pull Chubb and put in Duke in most the obvious passing situations?

U got me ... i cant argue with that logic ... u win ... *L* ...

Later bro ... enjoy your weekend ...

We did it more when the WR unit was poor. Not as much last year. And actually we had the O on the field a lot more last year in the second half of the season. Since then we added OBJ. So we actually have more receiving targets than we did last year.

In 2017 Duke had 74 receptions. In 2018 he had 47 receptions. The lowest of his career. The trend is going down, not up. It seems the better our WR's are, the less Duke is producing in the passing game. And now we've added OBJ.

Only some positions figure to play 100% of snaps. On offense you'd expect that to be the offensive line and QB, and even that requires them to be healthy. Other guys rotate in and out... it turns out that running routes over and over is tiring.

Again, you also have to factor in injuries, players having off days, different game situations, giving the defense different looks, and so forth.

Is Duke Johnson a running back? is he a receiver? This is the wrong way to look at it. He's an offensive weapon and a unique one among the Browns skill position players.

One play he might line up behind another back in I-formation. Next play is shotgun with split backs... but we motion him out and snap before he's set (easy man beater, good luck if a linebacker is trying to cover him). Or maybe we run a screen for him. Then we go hurry up but it's a single back set with Duke lined up in the slot.

Now he's a receiver and you hit him for a slant over the middle. Or give him a carry on a Jet Sweep. Or fake the Jet Sweep and run Chubb to the opposite side. The possibilities are endless. Do this in a hurry up offense where the defense can't sub in players and give defensive coordinators fits.

Those are fine scenarios to bring up, but the stats show his production and usage decreased dramatically from 2017 to 2018. I know all of the "what if's" sound great. But that's simply not the way things have panned out.

Past coaching staffs have obviously misused and underused Duke. I'm suggesting a better way-- more like how McDaniels and the Hoodie use their dual-threat backs up in New England, and less like how past coaching staffs have used Duke here.

I also thought Freddie was put in an unenviable situation mid-season as its always hard to install new concepts in the middle of the season. I hope with a full offseason of work, Duke will be better integrated into the offense. There are plenty of touches and plenty of yards to go around. The most potent offenses are getting close to 7,000 yards a year in total offense.

I think we should break that mark. Call it 5,000 yards passing and 2,000 yards on the ground. Divvy it up however you want.

edit: 7,000 yards is optimistic and somewhat tongue-in-cheek. That said, the Chiefs had 6,810 yards in total offense last year and 8 teams were above 6,000. The 9th ranked team in total yards, Baltimore, had 5,999. There are plenty of yards to go around.

In 2018, he produced the same on average in both carries and rec yards as he always has even though targets and carries went down. Again, his efficiency as a player is exceptional and he deserves to be on the field more as he has shown to be a mismatch and a weapon. I don't care to see him lined up on the outside, but in the back field and in the slot is where he is most dangerous. I don't care where he falls in line with #6 receiver option...that's irrelevant. He is one of the best options we have in those two places and should be utilized there more.

Those are not "what-ifs".

j/c:

I get that this thread has reached a point where people are taking sides and trying to win an argument, but we probably should not quote articles that state dumb-ass things like what Duke did when Hue and Haley were running the offense last year. The offense was all Haley's.

Haley really underutilized Duke. Freddie used him more at first, but hat tailed off.

The only coach that ever used Duke a lot was Hue when he was the in charge of the offense the previous two years.

Let's try and keep things real while trying to win the argument and not post articles that are misinformed.

I'll end by saying that I am really surprised how radical the thoughts are on in this situation. I see good points for both sides. I can't believe anyone really believes this is so black and white.

Y'all argue a lot.

Duke Johnson should have a role as long as Hunt is out. After that it’s anyones guess as to how the touches will be distributed (especially considering injuries).

My guess as to the reason why Johnson hasn’t been traded yet? His value to the team is greater than the value of the draft choices we’ve been offered for him. If we got the right pick offered to us then my guess is that’s he’d be moved quickly.

His usage went down. That's a fact. That means his role with Freddie as HC is very little. Unless you don't feel Freddie is capable of throwing together a few basic plays for Duke when he took over. Which seems to be a common theme on this board.

Agreed. I think, had we been offered a 4th round pick for Duke during the draft, he would have been traded. Just speculation on my part, of course.

There's nothing wrong with having 3 capable backs on your team... you're always going to have at least 3 backs active on game day so not sure why this is such a big deal, especially with Hunt being suspended half a year.

His role probably was reduced, rightfully, because Nick Chubb was a revelation. Not because he isn’t useful. Nick Chubb is a total beast.

And we've always managed to sign someone to start ahead of Duke. That's why I'm not so sure the assumption that Duke would step in if Chubb were injured is correct.