This is an informative and interesting must read, IMO. It's a little difficult to navigate, and the article isn't finished yet - he's only up to #6 - but there is a lot of great information here. If you scroll down to the bottom of the #6 article, you'll find links to #'s 25-7. It's up to you how you navigate it, I read #6 first them went to 25 and read them in order after I figured out #6 wasn't #25. At the end of each article you can vote on how you rate the decision.
Anyway, there's a lot of insight on how the Browns arrived at the decisions, the impact of the decisions, and how we should fare in the coming season(s). It's well thought out, well written, and a very good read, IMO. There's also a lot of info we know, but may have forgotten, and offers a lot of interesting perspective on previous regimes as well as Dorsey's reign.
Enjoy, and feel free to discuss any aspect of any of the decisions.
Also, if you happen to see the next article published, please feel free to link it.
We can analyze this to the ends of the earth, but this franchise was doomed until John Dorsey arrived. Without him, we would still be a laughingstock. His hire changed everything. We can rank his moves, I guess......but, it's all about hiring the right dude. John Dorsey.
My comment goes beyond Dorsey and includes all the football people who have been brought in to assist Dorsey...Eliot Wolf, ass. GM and Alonso Highsmith, VP of player personnel for example.
My comment goes beyond Dorsey and includes all the football people who have been brought in to assist Dorsey...Eliot Wolf, ass. GM and Alonso Highsmith, VP of player personnel for example.
Had to read this twice... couldn't figure out why you called E. Wolf an ass. smh
Not starting an argument, not saying Dorsey isn't a major part of the turnaround, but perhaps if you read the articles, you'd see there are more than one. That's my opinion.
I'm as happy as anyone that we seem to be turning things around finally and Baker looks like the real deal... but I'd like to actually win some games before we put our name on the trophy.
My comment goes beyond Dorsey and includes all the football people who have been brought in to assist Dorsey...Eliot Wolf, ass. GM and Alonso Highsmith, VP of player personnel for example.
The point of the articles is a series of decisions lead to this moment in time. Certainly the hiring of Dorsey and the drafting of Baker are probably #'s 1 & 2. The firing of Hue, the firing of Haley and the promotion of Freddie are probably in the top five. They just haven't been written yet. The other decisions that led to where we are have their place in history as well.
it's dismissive and condescending to laud one decision as being the sole factor for the success, or lay it at the feet of one particular person or group. If Dorsey had been hired and there were no cap space, or if Baker were a bust, it would be a different story. Dorsey didn't draft Myles Garret. He didn't draft Peppers, which helped facilitate the trade for OBJ. The articles give plenty of credit to Dorsey where it's due, but the point is, there were a series of decisions that got us here.
It's clear some haven't read the articles, or simply do not wish to entertain the notion other factors besides the Dorsey hire are integral to the resurgence of the team, and that's ok. This clearly isn't a thread they have something to contribute to. But to come here and say there were no other factors is nonsense. The point of the thread is to have a discussion about those decisions, not shut it down with ridiculous and argumentative pronouncements.
I'm as happy as anyone that we seem to be turning things around finally and Baker looks like the real deal... but I'd like to actually win some games before we put our name on the trophy.
And I'd like to see some relevant and intelligent conversation in this thread. No one is putting anyone's name on any trophy. What does that have to do with the topic? Read the articles, or don't. Participate in the thread or don't. I'd like to see "like" fishing taken somewhere else.
4 key people for any NFL team: owner, GM, head coach, quarterback
Jimmy is kind of baked in so let's skip that for now.
Three decisions that transformed the Cleveland Browns:
1. Jimmy finally bringing in the right guy in when he hired John Dorsey
2. Dorsey drafting Baker Mayfield who, despite some revisionist history to the contrary, was by no means the consensus number 1 pick last year.
3. Firing Clueless Hue Jackson, the worst coach of all time. It turns out that it didn't really matter who replaced him-- even basic competence from a mediocre defensive coordinator and a then no-name running backs coach was enough to turn the team around in as little as two weeks.
Coaching is so important that we might as well make it #4 as well: hiring Freddie Kitchens as head coach. How well this turns out remains to be seen, but he has a lot of good attributes in terms of rallying players together and creating nice offensive sets. I hope Carson Palmer is right when he said, "Freddie is a true gem and a brilliant hire by the Browns."
Yes, those decision are likely in the top five, which haven't been posted yet, but they aren't they only decisions that matter.
True. That series does a good job of setting the stage for the Browns culture and some of the good but maybe not elite players. There are a few that seem 'forced' in there, e.g. #19: Retaining linebacker Christian Kirksey as a steadying influence. Overall a good piece though.
Thinking about the future ones, besides what's already in the series or mentioned above. Garrett and Ward (somewhat covered in previous segments, but will probably get their own as well), OBJ, maybe something about the draft or F.O. structure or whatever.
I'm as happy as anyone that we seem to be turning things around finally and Baker looks like the real deal... but I'd like to actually win some games before we put our name on the trophy.
And I'd like to see some relevant and intelligent conversation in this thread. No one is putting anyone's name on any trophy. What does that have to do with the topic? Read the articles, or don't. Participate in the thread or don't. I'd like to see "like" fishing taken somewhere else.
You have a lot of demands. lol, it was just a comment, not some kind of attack.
People aren't going to read the articles... some minds are already made up. And it didn't take long for someone to attempt to derail this thread.
I didn't read them all, yet, but I do think it's they are an interesting read.
The moves for the turnaround started long before Dorsey arrived.
One of my favorite from #7 is...
Quote:
The final pieces from the Wentz trade helping the Browns right now: Denzel Ward, Damarious Randall, Jabrill Peppers (who was an important part of the Odell Beckham trade), Chad Thomas and a seventh-round pick in this year’s draft.
I'm obviously going to be chastised for saying this, but I think whomever we brought in, whether it was Dorsey, or some other GM to make the decisions, he would have had the opportunity to turn a dying franchise around. I know it's not a popular opinion, and don't get me wrong, I LOVE some of the things Dorsey has done... the ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl. If we do that and erect a statue of Dorsey I'll be happy as a clam.
I'm as happy as anyone that we seem to be turning things around finally and Baker looks like the real deal... but I'd like to actually win some games before we put our name on the trophy.
And I'd like to see some relevant and intelligent conversation in this thread. No one is putting anyone's name on any trophy. What does that have to do with the topic? Read the articles, or don't. Participate in the thread or don't. I'd like to see "like" fishing taken somewhere else.
You have a lot of demands. lol, it was just a comment, not some kind of attack.
Read it again, those aren't demands, just comments, and like yours, not an attack.
People aren't going to read the articles... some minds are already made up. And it didn't take long for someone to attempt to derail this thread.
I didn't read them all, yet, but I do think it's they are an interesting read.
The moves for the turnaround started long before Dorsey arrived.
One of my favorite from #7 is...
Quote:
The final pieces from the Wentz trade helping the Browns right now: Denzel Ward, Damarious Randall, Jabrill Peppers (who was an important part of the Odell Beckham trade), Chad Thomas and a seventh-round pick in this year’s draft.
I'm obviously going to be chastised for saying this, but I think whomever we brought in, whether it was Dorsey, or some other GM to make the decisions, he would have had the opportunity to turn a dying franchise around. I know it's not a popular opinion, and don't get me wrong, I LOVE some of the things Dorsey has done... the ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl. If we do that and erect a statue of Dorsey I'll be happy as a clam.
I agree. The decisions go well beyond Dorsey, and Dorsey does get a lion's share of the credit, but a sequence of events led up to this moment. Call it destiny, call it fate, call it luck, but we're here because of these decisions. There may be others as well, but these decisions are certainly interesting to consider as a whole.
Yes, those decision are likely in the top five, which haven't been posted yet, but they aren't they only decisions that matter.
True. That series does a good job of setting the stage for the Browns culture and some of the good but maybe not elite players. There are a few that seem 'forced' in there, e.g. #19: Retaining linebacker Christian Kirksey as a steadying influence. Overall a good piece though.
Thinking about the future ones, besides what's already in the series or mentioned above. Garrett and Ward (somewhat covered in previous segments, but will probably get their own as well), OBJ, maybe something about the draft or F.O. structure or whatever.
Yeah, you very well may not agree that every decision is a key contributor, or you may feel other decisions would have made the team better. That's the point of the discussion. It will be interesting to see what makes up the top five, well, top four now that #5 is there. (See list above).
A certain firing and the hiring of Dorsey was not planned, but the timing of it couldn't have been better for the Browns. With everything almost seemingly stacked against us, the world finally fell into place for us and it appears it couldn't have gone any better.
To sit and think about how we got to this point is miraculous. This is probably something that has never really happened before and they'll be talking about it for years. I'm sure teams will attempt to copy us, but we'll never be duplicated. We're on the brink of something special.
To sit and think about how we got to this point is miraculous. This is probably something that has never really happened before and they'll be talking about it for years. I'm sure teams will attempt to copy us, but we'll never be duplicated. We're on the brink of something special.
Are we allowed to speculate? I know some hate that...
I agree that something to do with the coaches is in the top 4.
Drafting Baker is undoubtedly #1.
Certainly, there are no rules, I'm just happy to see contribution to the discussion. My #1 & 2 have to be Hiring Dorsey & drafting Baker. Maybe OBJ is #3 and Freddie is #4, or vice versa.
All of what happened before Dorsey being hired as far as draft capital is basically the result of an inept front office.
If people want to buy into intentionally tanking so be it.
As far as another GM coming in to make the decisions that is pure conjecture. We have had multiple GM's with draft capital and they failed miserable.
The personnel on the roster today outside of a few holdovers are the result of Dorsey.
The coaching staff and the decisions about the previous coaching staff are all on Dorsey.
Dorsey made the decision to fire Hue and Haley. Many thought Haley should have gotten the job. The decision to promote Williams and Freddie last year again Dorsey.
The decision this year to make Freddie the Head Coach and last year to draft Baker number one again Dorsey.
So the Browns today and going forward are "primarily" the result of Dorsey being hired.
IMO we are damn lucky Dorsey is our GM. Because if he was not; and he had not proved himself to Haslam.
We would still be on the merry-go-round led by Haslam.
Have you read the articles? Because your response seems overly simplistic. Also, the transition has begun, even though we haven't had a winning season, the team is clearly better, and but for some blatantly bad calls by the refs, and/or some terrible moments by the kickers, we would have a winning season. Obviously the transformation is a work in progress, no is saying it isn't. The decisions are not being framed as inept or not, just as decisions that affect the direction of the team. If you want to dismiss them, that's up to you, but your opinions on the matter doesn't make the decisions any less valid as decisions in and of themselves.
- drafted Bake ... thats a NO-BRAINER and always was ... - drafted Ward, Chubb, Avery, Calloway and Corbett ... got Harrison as an UDFA
- overpaid for VG .... ... - turned Kizer into Randall (keep in mind your debating with folks who are defending Kizer being a good pick cause he resulted in Randall ... they make it seem like any GM would have done it and Dorsey just happenend to be the guy sitting there and was lucky to get the job) .... - signed Mitchell and re-vamped the secondary .. brought in Perriman ... oh ya ... there’s also Gregg Robinson ....
Ultimately hired Freddie last year ... any clue how he actually ended up here? ... i have no idea ...
And that was year 1 ... look what he’s done in year 2 ...
HE DA MAN .... for anyone to think the table setters had anything to do with the end result is crazy ... they did a GREAT JOB SETTING THE TABLE ... but it ends there ... they set the heck out of the table ....
And that was a combo led by the thief with the dumbest idea in the history of football ... then Sashi and Hue proved it to be the dumbest hire in the history of sports .... the combination of their ineptness set the table like no other table had ever been set .... they even left a smidge of talent behind ..
Then King John came in and has TRANSFORMED US .... he brought in the TALENT to take us from an historically bad team with a few players with talent to a team with a ton of talent... as much as any team in the league with the sky being the limit as to how far we can go ....
Those are good articles and a lot of fun to read i would imagine ... but almost every talent move will lead back to Dorsey .... he’s the straw that stirred this drink ...
W/o Dorsey were no where’s close to where we are ... i’d rather enjoy that than argue over how we got here ...
Thank You Table Setters ... GREAT JOB setting the table for King John ... appreciatte it ...
And I'm not sure why some will want to spin them negatively. If that's what they want to do then so be it.
But, for me it's like the butterfly effect. Some of the decisions are more important than others obviously, hence the rankings, but they are not mutually exclusive to how we arrived.
For instance passing on Wentz was a big reason we are where we are... Whether I liked the move or not, trading for Landry played a role. The sequence of signing Hyde, drafting Chubb, releasing Hyde, playing Chubb...
All of it... it's all important. This is something unique and unprecedented.
My comment goes beyond Dorsey and includes all the football people who have been brought in to assist Dorsey...Eliot Wolf, ass. GM and Alonso Highsmith, VP of player personnel for example.
And I'm not sure why some will want to spin them negatively. If that's what they want to do then so be it.
But, for me it's like the butterfly effect. Some of the decisions are more important than others obviously, hence the rankings, but they are not mutually exclusive to how we arrived.
For instance passing on Wentz was a big reason we are where we are... Whether I liked the move or not, trading for Landry played a role. The sequence of signing Hyde, drafting Chubb, releasing Hyde, playing Chubb...
All of it... it's all important. This is something unique and unprecedented.
Yes, I agree completely. Whether you agreed with the decisions at the time or not, liked the results or not, they were made and helped to form the current team. I don't get the posturing as if Dorsey isn't getting his fare share of credit, he certainly is. Or the notion that he is somehow responsible for all of the moves, which he certainly is not. For example, like it or not, the 0-16 season has to factor in, as does the hiring of Hue. Without the 0-16 season, there may be no Baker and there may be no Dorsey. It's a crazy, and as you say, a unique and unprecedented situation and I think your analogy of the Butterfly Effect is spot on.
It is simplistic. Because without Dorsey making those decisions this team today as we know it does not exist.
That is the net result IMO.
Dorsey certainly factors in in a big way, but he is not the only factor by any stretch. If you think he is, fine, but that's not the end of the discussion, maybe just your part in it. That's up to you. There were decisions that predate Dorsey, and since we don't live in a vacuum, they carry weight.
It's not the point. It's a point. The point is that there are many factors and decisions that brought us where we are today. Dorsey's contributions are many and well credited. But he isn't the only factor. For example, the decision to hire him has to be a decision that weighs heavily. The drafting of Myles is a factor. Hue's ineptitude that destroyed Kizer's chances to even remain as a backup is a factor. His inability to win even a single game is a factor. That's the fascinating part of the discussion, all these factors have led to this.
This hapless team that for so many years suffered from ineptitude, greed, terrible luck, god-awful decision making, horrible drafting and so on, finally, because of a couple dozen decisions or so, has a chance to not just turn it around, but become a force in the league for years to come. That's special. It may be impossible to point a finger at all the decisions that factor in, but the 25 or so listed is a good starting point.
If you don't see it that way, that's cool, but to say it's just about the GM or the picks is at the least myopic, IMO. It doesn't really matter what another GM would have done, because that is not a factor. And of course as we move farther forward in time, Dorsey's decisions will weigh more heavily on the outcomes, and the decisions of the past will have less significance, but for now, we're here because of all of these things that have happened and the decisions made concerning them.
No need to apologize or be petulant, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I certainly don't care if it differs from mine. Since you don't feel there's any need to contribute to the conversation because you think there's only one decision that matters, it's probably not a thread you'd want to participate in anyway. I hope we can still be friends.
My comment goes beyond Dorsey and includes all the football people who have been brought in to assist Dorsey...Eliot Wolf, ass. GM and Alonso Highsmith, VP of player personnel for example.
Had to read this twice... couldn't figure out why you called E. Wolf an ass. smh
OCD...what I should have done was simply spell out the word...assistant GM, Elliot Wolf.
I've been reading most of these over the past few weeks and it's good stuff. The only two at this point that seem a bit inconsistent is the signing of Hunt and then one of them was "Choosing Chubb as the RB of the future". The latter, as a result of Hunt, may not actually come to fruition. At this point in time I think Hunt is the better RB and if that continues to be the case, then Chubb may not be the RB of the future...Hunt will be.
OR a statue, a stadium, a plaque, a franchise, who knows how far it might go. I think he is a catalyst who is hard to over-value. He causes things to happen, things happen around him, and yet he seems to float above it all without getting used up or buried by those moves. Pluto might find another book in this.
Dorsey might be the most important (by far) decision ... but that's not the only step in the process, because some (like passing on Wentz) impact the team, draft capital and W/L record (probably) so much that we don't know if Dorsey would be here without the decision to pass on Wentz.
Many of these decisions are decisions Dorsey made - so the decision to hire Dorsey is closely entwined with most every decision after he was appointed. . . . but that still makes them separate decisions worth reviewing. And heck - even the Osweiller trade which I forgot about and netted us Nick Chubb was another really significant step in the process/decision making.
Dorsey might be the most important (by far) decision ... but that's not the only step in the process, because some (like passing on Wentz) impact the team, draft capital and W/L record (probably) so much that we don't know if Dorsey would be here without the decision to pass on Wentz.
Yeah, Device's Butterfly Effect analogy really resonated with met.
And like you said, the hiring of Hue was important to this process...
Imagine going back to 2016 and hiring McDermott as HC instead of Hue. The FO and HC are on the same page. Perhaps some of the quarterbacks here are different. And maybe we don't lose as many games and it's enough for the HC and Front Office to keep their respective jobs. That means Dorsey isn't here most likely...
A series of events had to take place for us to get here. I'm sure you could play these things out with other teams and some will obviously downplay the significance of some of our moves. However, consider we've been the doormat for years with an awful reputation and all of a sudden people are discussing us as one of the favorites to win the division and then some. Everything is just magnified here.
And I mean I'm sure you could go as far back as Haslam buying the team, but that might be a bit extreme. I don't know that the "starting point" is 2016, but there's obvious reasons to me to start there...
And like you said, the hiring of Hue was important to this process...
Imagine going back to 2016 and hiring McDermott as HC instead of Hue. The FO and HC are on the same page. Perhaps some of the quarterbacks here are different. And maybe we don't lose as many games and it's enough for the HC and Front Office to keep their respective jobs. That means Dorsey isn't here most likely...
A series of events had to take place for us to get here. I'm sure you could play these things out with other teams and some will obviously downplay the significance of some of our moves. However, consider we've been the doormat for years with an awful reputation and all of a sudden people are discussing us as one of the favorites to win the division and then some. Everything is just magnified here.
And I mean I'm sure you could go as far back as Haslam buying the team, but that might be a bit extreme. I don't know that the "starting point" is 2016, but there's obvious reasons to me to start there...
I look at it this way. I’ve done some stupid stuff in my life. I’ve had my heartbroken. I’ve made a few poor choices along the way with girls, jobs, general focus on college courses... etc. Said some stupid things that shouldn’t have been said.... the list could go on. As it could for most of us as we look back at our lives. The thing is I don’t regret any of it. Why? Because they’ve made me the person I am today, and I’m good with who I am today. If my heart hadn’t been broken at 23 I wouldn’t be as good of a partner to my girlfriend at 46. If I had stayed more focused in college I’d be working in the world of advertising. Nothing wrong with that... except I’d have moved to a different city, working in a different world, meeting different people.... I love my current life. I love my friends. I love my girlfriend. And I’m having an incredible time building fantastical art that’s enjoyed by thousands.... which is a million times more rewarding than any advertising gig could provide. My choices. My hurdles made me who I am.
The Browns are today what they are today because of all their hurdles. Thank you Carmen Policy, Dwight Clark, Holmgren, the thousand QBs, the countless head coaches, Sashi, Hue, etc, and now Dorsey. (Especially Dorsey) We should all look back and take it for what it is. The past... the past that has lead to today. Which if you ask me is a pretty exciting place to be.
Conversely, if we would have had competent people in charge we may have drafted Aaron Rogers in 2005, surrounded him with good talent and had five Lombardi trophies in Cleveland right now. So there's that.
I've never really thought of making a list of people to thank for sucking so bad.
Conversely, if we would have had competent people in charge we may have drafted Aaron Rogers in 2005, surrounded him with good talent and had five Lombardi trophies in Cleveland right now. So there's that.
I've never really thought of making a list of people to thank for sucking so bad.
Sure but we could kvetch about that until we’re blue in the face. Spilt milk. Today forward we are where we are for our past. Onward. Upward.
And I'm all for that. I mean what choice do we have, right?
My point really wasn't to belabor the past. My point was that trying to make the argument that we should be thankful that we didn't succeed earlier seems a bit contrived.
I mean life isn't like football. In the NFL you build and coach a team to win. Your goal is single minded. It's to win a championship. Life is a journey where we all have to find our own path.
I just believe that trying to make a point that going through twenty years of misery is something we should thank everyone who came before the current leadership isn't a strong point of debate.
I'm 60 years old. While I agree with you we can't change the past, I would much preferred that my last 15 years of fandom had been spent cheering on a Browns team with championship caliber potential. I'm certainly not willing to be thankful that past regimes failed so miserably at trying to make that happen.
Definitely understand your point too. It’s sucked sucking for 20 years. I wish we’d come out of the gates in ‘99 firing. Unfortunately it didn’t work out that way. With that, our resolve as fans has grown. Without gravity we’d lose muscle mass. We need heat and cold to temper steel. Adversity has made us a rabid fan base waiting for our chance... So I’m not thanking the crappy leadership of the past as so much as I am giving thanks to where we are now. NIAYH... Now is all you have. We’re about to have fun.
We could go all the way back to the return... and blame Jax and Carolina's immediate success as the reason why the NFL gave us the screw job, valid point, but there's no bearing on today. Or is there? Obviously that just creates scenarios we could never imagine, so why bother?
The "here and now" obviously begins with new ownership. A brash billionaire that thought he had the Midas touch and everything would turn to gold. Bet he never in his life could have conceived what his personal life, professional life, and the Cleveland Browns would turn into over the next three years.
He learned his lessons slow because he was sold a bill of goods by others he confided in around the league, many of which he hired. He thought he would learn "on the job" during this time. The dysfunction in Berea that had it's roots all the way back with the Walrus just continued.
Eventually he saw that he had run out of "knee-jerk" reactions... every one he made going forward would just hinder the team more exponentially than the previous. His first great decision was being sold on bottoming-out. If I was a betting man, I would say that his close relationship with Parcels had a lot to do with that... and his relationship with Parcels began around the time (reportedly) when he stopped confiding in snakes.
Next great decision was hiring Sashi as a "place holder" for when the assets were attractive enough to lure a real GM. Next great decision - keeping Hue. The constant "coaching carousel" wasn't going to fix anything while we were bottoming-out anyway... It would only lead to more dysfunction, chaos, FO turnover and player turnover... during a time when continuity would be the only possible way to fairly judge the talent you have anyway.
Then Jimmy became Mel Gibson in Braveheart... the battle scene. He stands at the front and maintains composure until it burns. "Hold... Hold... HOLD!!" Melodramatic? Indeed. But that's what it reminds me of. He could have cashed in some assets any time during the last four years, but he stayed the course, through some serious agony. Downside - incompetent GM that didn't draft "real players". A downside that didn't matter that much when you were tearing down to the studs anyway... it would be like picking out appliances before you've built the kitchen.
Stacked the chips until we were one of the most attractive opportunities in the history of the league. Don't get me wrong, I love Dorsey, but he wasn't the only one that could have turned this around so quickly. Between draft picks, cap space, a measuring stick that starts at true bottom, and a fan base that will build a statue for you at 7-8-1? Jimmy would have his pick of the litter around the league.
Now, you can say the Dorsey hire was luck, heck, you can say everything that happened was dumb luck and Jimmy played no real part in the turn around. Bottom line, if 1-31 were 12-20, and we were a middling team still with the stigma of constant dysfunction, Dorsey would have laughed on the other end of the line, I don't need a butterfly to know that... So the plan did lead to Dorsey, and we would not have Dorsey without it.
#1 of the 25 Decisions?
Jimmy laying out a brash plan, and finally sticking with it. It took guts, resolve and discipline... and heck, maybe even a little "aw shucks" dumb luck.
Unless these are strictly player decisions, which they very well could be, I'd think hiring Dorsey & firing Hue/Haley have to go somewhere near the top.
Every one thus far has been player related. I cannot see any of the 3 I referred to being less important that the 25th decision that transformed the Browns.
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Myles Garrett has enthralled Browns fans with his love of dinosaurs and animals. For that, his arrival in Cleveland is No. 3 on our list of moves that transformed the Browns. Also, he scares quarterbacks.
Jurassic Myles🦖 ✔ @MylesLGarrett I’m on the way to the dog park... a little late because someone decided to take a poop in the car, and it wasn’t me or jeremy. See y’all soon!
The move: Choose Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett with the first pick in the 2017 NFL Draft.
The context: This was the obvious choice but also greatly discussed before the draft, as reports had the Browns torn between Garrett and North Carolina quarterback Mitch Trubisky. After the Browns traded out of the chance to take a quarterback in 2016, they were prepared to draft one here, but the draft didn’t present an obvious QB pick at No. 1. Trubisky went second after Chicago traded up with San Francisco. The entire league saw Garrett as the top pick, and the Browns settled on the obvious. But it didn’t always feel certain in the days before the first round.
The result: Garrett averaged 1.74 QB hits per game his first two seasons. That ranked third in the league, behind the Rams’ Aaron Donald and the Jaguars’ Yannick Ngakoue. Ranked No. 55 on Pro Football Focus’ list of the best players for 2018, Garrett made his first Pro Bowl after recording 13.5 sacks, which ranked sixth in the league.
Basically, he played like an overall No. 1 pick, while the Browns overworked him as one of two defensive linemen to play more than 1,000 snaps in 2018. With a little more rest, he could get to the quarterback even more often.
The alternative: The real alternative is a world where the Browns don’t land the overall No. 1 pick. At 1-15, the Browns were just slightly worse than the 2-14 San Francisco 49ers in 2016. When the Browns earned their first win in week 15, San Francisco earned its second with a furious rally led by Colin Kaepernick. The 49ers scored 15 points in the final 5:06 to beat the Rams 22-21.
If San Francisco had also finished 1-15, the 49ers would have earned the top pick because of an easier schedule. And Garrett might be a 49er. If the Browns picked No. 2? The Trubisky era might be entering year three here, with Mitch handing off to Saquon Barkley.
The credit: Did Sashi Brown and the front office want Trubisky at some point? Did Hue Jackson desire a QB at No. 1? When it mattered, the Browns made the safe pick and pushed their quarterback decision off another year. In the 16 drafts before the Garrett pick, a quarterback had been the overall No. 1 choice 12 times. Quarterback was tempting. But however the decision-making process went down, Brown, Jackson and the Browns went defense because everyone’s best player in the draft was an edge rusher.
The future: In his two seasons, Garrett is already 12th on the Browns career sacks list with 20.5. By the end of this season, he should be about sixth. In another year, he should be fourth. By the end of his fifth season in Cleveland, a healthy Garrett should be closing in on Clay Matthews’ franchise record of 62 career sacks.
It’s going to cost major bucks to keep him around. But pass rushers are the kind of player worth spending money on. Garrett will be eying an extension soon enough, and the Browns’ cap space will be used to satisfy him.
Then consider the possibilities. The player ranked No. 100 on the NFL’s all-time sack list, Darren Howard, has 67 of them. Thirty-two players have at least 100 career sacks. That’s the kind of production we’re taking about. What Garrett could bring to Cleveland is the kind of pass-rushing production this city has never seen in the modern era of football.
How would you rate the Browns decisions to pick Myles Garrett at No. 1
If San Francisco had also finished 1-15, the 49ers would have earned the top pick because of an easier schedule. And Garrett might be a 49er. If the Browns picked No. 2? The Trubisky era might be entering year three here, with Mitch handing off to Saquon Barkley.
This is the type of situation that makes the discussion fascinating, IMO.
Or we pull what we think Arizona is about to do and we draft Mayfield, trade Trubisky.
However, had we drafted trubisky, perhaps Sashi and Hue are still here...
Had we drafted Trubisky, perhaps he's not seen as an up and coming QB.. but is already labeled a bust.
Trubisky is not good.
Actually I think that’s all he is. Good. Not great. Andy Dalton-esk. He could prove me wrong. Teams can win a championship with a guy like him. Nick Foles is a classic case. They don’t tend to win multiple championships with just a ‘good’ QB though.
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Over the last five seasons, Odell Beckham Jr. ranks third in the NFL in receiving yards per game, averaging 92.8. In the last five years, starting in 2014, the Browns ranked 20th, 21st, 28th, 22nd and, last year, 14th in passing yards per game.
Beckham is now is Cleveland. Passing game transformation ahead. That’s why the acquisition of OBJ is No. 2 on our list of moves that transformed the Browns.
The move: Acquiring receiver Odell Beckham Jr. for safety Jabrill Peppers, the No. 17 pick in the first round of the 2019 NFL Draft and the No. 95 pick in the third round of the 2019 NFL Draft. The trade happened on March 12.
The context: Reading over the trade, I still can’t believe that’s all the Browns gave up for Beckham. Anyway, the context is John Dorsey and Giants general manager Dave Gettleman have known each other for 35 years and Gettleman did his old friend a solid?
The Giants were willing to deal Beckham, despite signing him to a new contract last August. With Beckham’s college receivers coach, Adam Henry, in the same role with the Browns, and one of his best friends, Jarvis Landry, leading the Browns’ receivers room, Cleveland offered a comfortable landing spot. Mary Kay Cabot detailed all of this and more in her behind-the-scenes story on how the deal came together.
The result: The Browns immediately jumped from 30-1 to win the Super Bowl to 14-1. That’s what giving a No. 1 receiver to a young quarterback like Baker Mayfield can do for a team. Beckham gained at least 1,300 yards receiving in each of his first three seasons with the Giants. The Browns have just a single 1,300-yard receiving season (Josh Gordon with 1,646 yards in 2013) in franchise history.
Overall, there have been 195 seasons of 1,300 receiving yards in NFL history. One in Cleveland. Three for Beckham. So the result is the arrival of a receiving talent unlike any in Cleveland history.
The alternative: Dorsey was always going to aggressively upgrade the offense this offseason. There was little doubt about that. Receiver made sense as the top priority. But the free agent receiver options didn’t include a true No. 1. Golden Tate (signed by the Giants to fill the Beckham hole), Tyrell Williams, Adam Humphries, Devin Funchess, John Brown, Randall Cobb and Jamison Crowder were the best options. Williams, a deep threat who burned the Browns while playing for the Chargers last year, was a popular idea for Cleveland, but none of them were close to Beckham level.
So the idea of prying away a top receiver in a trade with a rebuilding team always seemed like the best route for Dorsey. Maybe Tampa Bay’s Mike Evans? Emmanuel Sanders in Denver? The Raiders had traded Amari Cooper last season, and the idea of getting involved with Antonio Brown seemed to bring potential instability. Plus, the Steelers weren’t going to help the Browns.
So Beckham was always the top target. You just didn’t think it was possible.
The credit: I’m not sure two old school guys dealing with each other because they’re buddies is how this league should work. But personal relationships matter. Planting seeds matters. Working angles matters. And I’m pretty sure there’s not another general manager in the league that could have pulled off this trade.
Take a bow, Mr. Dorsey.
The future: Beckham’s contract runs through 2023. That’s five seasons of Beckham in Cleveland. That’s also probably 50 stories about whether he’s happy or not. Assume he is happy. Assume an accurate quarterback, and a great friend beside him, and offensive coaches that will feature him, and a head coach that will let him be himself, will all make Beckham happy.
I’d let concerns about his happiness occupy zero percent of your headspace. He does need to stay healthy.
He missed the first four games of his rookie year in 2014 with a hamstring injury. He missed 12 games in 2017, first with a high ankle sprain and later after fracturing the same ankle. He missed the last four games of last season with a quad injury after he was leg-whipped by a defender.
In five seasons, he’s missed 21 of a possible 80 games. But if he’s on the field, the future for Beckham and the Browns ... well, Gettleman may never get over it.
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- It’s all about the quarterback, but not only about the quarterback. Of course, the arrival of Baker Reagan Mayfield is No. 1 on our list of moves that transformed the Cleveland Browns.
The move: Pick Oklahoma quarterback Baker Mayfield at No. 1 in the 2018 NFL Draft.
The context: A year ago at this time, the day before the draft, the world didn’t know which way John Dorsey would lean. One NFL exec insisted to Mary Kay Cabot that Wyoming QB Josh Allen would go No. 1 to the Browns -- “You can take it to the bank," he said.
Some still thought USC quarterback Sam Darnold would be the choice. A story from The Ringer a week before the draft a year ago explained why that mock drafter finally moved off Darnold and to Allen -- because everyone was linking the Browns and Allen.
I move we declare every Wednesday before the NFL Draft “Could Have Been Josh Allen Day” in Cleveland.
The result: Mayfield broke the rookie record for touchdown passes. He become one of nine rookies in the last 48 years to lead at least four game-winning fourth-quarter drives in a season, joining a group that includes Ben Roethlisberger, Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott and Matt Ryan. He showed how the Browns could win, and he changed the franchise.
The alternative: A lot of GMs would have gone with an alternative, but Dorsey said after the draft he had been zeroed in on Mayfield for months. After passing in 2016 and 2017, there was no doubt the Browns were going quarterback at No. 1, and if you were pounding the table for the Browns to draft running back Saquon Barkley, Giants general manager Dave Gettleman would like to take you to dinner.
Still, the Allen rumors frightened rational Browns fans. Legendary NFL writer Peter King had a friend of Dorsey’s telling him into April he thought Allen was the choice. The NFL Network’s Daniel Jeremiah said on April 9 that people in the league believed the Browns were going with Allen. Respected NFL reporter Albert Breer wrote about the Browns choice on April 12 last year without mentioning Mayfield -- it was Allen or Darnold.
You lived through it. You remember the buildup, and you soaked in the outcome. But it’s always worth remembering ... it could have been Josh Allen.
The credit: Some other general managers would have selected Mayfield, but certainly not all of them. Darnold would have been a reasonable choice, and I’d expect him to have a long productive career if the Jets give him any help. But he wouldn’t have injected the same kind of buzz into the franchise that Mayfield has.
So, again, this is Dorsey. He found his guy. And one year in, Mayfield have proven he’s just what the Browns needed.
The future: Mayfield won’t be perfect. At some point, his strong personality may create some hard feelings. Defenses will find the best way to deal with him, and someone will point out again that he’s on the short side.
While he posted the touchdown numbers and completion percentage you’d want from a rookie quarterback, it’s Mayfield’s ability to win that makes him so compelling. He’s a guy fans believe will find a way. That idea is rooted in reality because Mayfield was dropped into a team ready to win. Then the Browns added to that this offseason.
Roethlisberger, Wilson and Carson Wentz led Super Bowl winners in year two, and Jared Goff made the playoffs in year two and the Super Bowl in year three, because they had talent around them.
Of course Mayfield is No. 1 (though your Zane Gonzalez and DeShone Kizer jokes were noted). But he’s No. 1 with 24 other franchise-building moves under him. That’s why this team will make the playoffs in 2019 and why examining the Browns this way was worth it.
Darnold has an intriguing future with the Jets. Allen, believe it or not, could work out in Buffalo. But what Mayfield has -- like Goff and Wentz and Patrick Mahomes and Mitchell Trubisky -- is a chance to win right now as a young QB. That’s not because he’s No. 1 on his own.
Most likely Sashi and Dorsey were... but I'm sure they might have had some type of influence from others...
edit: I should add guys like Williams, Kitchens, Wilks, and yes perhaps even Hue... just based on the wordings of some of the decisions.
For sure. Dorsey is on record saying Williams wanted Denzel Ward over Bradley Chubb and that was one of the factors he considered, even though the final choice was his.
Listening to his people is just one more thing that makes Dorsey so great.
I also love that you gave Sashi some credit. Everyone wants it to be all Sashi or no Sashi. He def did some stuff that has helped us out to date.
Listening to his people is just one more thing that makes Dorsey so great.
Dorsey said something in his last press conference that I loved:
Quote:
On the research processes and resources used when considering trade value and Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta’s role in it:
“When you make a decision, it helps to have as much information as you possibly can."
This is very wise. There are other GMs that are set in their ways and only know the old school way. Dorsey seems to want to incorporate as many ideas and as much information as possible.
What kills me is that the author of these articles is almost certainly the most clueless and biased of all the local journalists, but since it fits the agenda of some.........it's gospel.
Meanwhile, the guy who actually had inside access isn't to be believed because he is a reporter.
What kills me is that the author of these articles is almost certainly the most clueless and biased of all the local journalists, but since it fits the agenda of some.........it's gospel.
Meanwhile, the guy who actually had inside access isn't to be believed because he is a reporter.
Let it die!
You're making something out of nothing. It's just an interesting topic of discussion. There are no agendas, no conspiracies, no ulterior motives. Calm yourself.
I knew you wouldn't be able to stay away.
As it turns out, these 25 decisions were all personnel decisions, so Dorsey certainly has received the lion's share of the credit by the author, so why are you tilting at windmills?
device brings the dude up almost daily. I try and ignore it, but his BS is old and tired.
For example........the Rams were going to offer the farm for Baker if they hadn't drafted Goff? I searched and searched and that was BS. How about when he said that Baker was the consensus number one of NFL GM's? I searched and searched and could not find that either.
I have tried to ignore the consistent lies and deception, but some will not stop.
I mean, I can state opinions as facts, as well.
If Sashi was still in charge, we would be picking first. Guaranteed.
See how freaking dumb those kind of statements are when you don't agree w/them?
Dorsey is in charge now. How about we get behind him and stop the stupid ass Hue/Sashi crap?
Is there someone who is saying the majority of those decisions were made by someone else?? if so, who are they saying made the majority of the decisions?? answer is no one is saying it . another straw man.
who the hell is not behind Dorsey?? every browns fan supports jd and what he has done to turn this franchise around. your bowels are in an uproar because this author dared to include things that were done by that scalliwag Sashi Brown and that is just unacceptable to you. This author took a nuanced look at this turnaround and really did a great job identifying key steps that were made. take some Maalox and get over it.
I don't (not even close) bring up Sashi everyday. In fact, you and your posse (Pit, Diam) mention him far more than I do. You can't go too far into a thread without one of you guys ruining it with a hateful Sashi rant.
Your obsession and insistence to slander my name is what's really an issue here. I'm not sure if you're upset I was right about Baker. Or maybe you were upset you were wrong about your guy. Maybe you are upset you were wrong about Hue?
It doesn't matter what I do or attempt to prove to you what is correct you will still attempt to convince this board to turn on me. Some here don't like me. I don't care. Some might like me. That's great. I remember when we were arguing once and you said if I proved you wrong you would apologize. I proved you wrong and you disappeared. No apology. I let it go because it's not that important to me, but that's all I needed for me to know what you're all about. We can be civil on this board and I would prefer you choose to be.
And yes, I agree, you guys need to put the Sashi/Hue stuff behind you and quit ruining threads. Just let it go, man. Let. It. Go.
I don't (not even close) bring up Sashi everyday. In fact, you and your posse (Pit, Diam) mention him far more than I do. You can't go too far into a thread without one of you guys ruining it with a hateful Sashi rant.
I was actually curious so I did an actual forum search for the word "Sashi" and specific to a couple of users.
Device, you've used the name 34 times in the last 12 weeks, so less than 3 times a week. By comparison, Pit and Diam have used the word in 44 different posts each, and Vers has mentioned his name in 54 separate posts in those same 12 weeks.
I don't (not even close) bring up Sashi everyday. In fact, you and your posse (Pit, Diam) mention him far more than I do. You can't go too far into a thread without one of you guys ruining it with a hateful Sashi rant.
I was actually curious so I did an actual forum search for the word "Sashi" and specific to a couple of users.
Device, you've used the name 34 times in the last 12 weeks, so less than 3 times a week. By comparison, Pit and Diam have used the word in 44 different posts each, and Vers has mentioned his name in 54 separate posts in those same 12 weeks.
I couldn't find anyone else over 20.
Now THAT'S how you use the search function. Bravo!
I don't (not even close) bring up Sashi everyday. In fact, you and your posse (Pit, Diam) mention him far more than I do. You can't go too far into a thread without one of you guys ruining it with a hateful Sashi rant.
I was actually curious so I did an actual forum search for the word "Sashi" and specific to a couple of users.
Device, you've used the name 34 times in the last 12 weeks, so less than 3 times a week. By comparison, Pit and Diam have used the word in 44 different posts each, and Vers has mentioned his name in 54 separate posts in those same 12 weeks.
I couldn't find anyone else over 20.
Now THAT'S how you use the search function. Bravo!
Our version of the Mueller investigation. Dang analytics...
The only thing left is what decisions do we make next... what happens this weekend? tonight? It's an ongoing saga...
Generally speaking, it is much more difficult to get a team over the top (the final couple of key pieces) than it is to get a so-so team near the top...
Love the logic. You have to say the exact word to actually be talking about that particular topic.
For example........I went to page one of this very thread. devise said this:
Quote:
Quote: The final pieces from the Wentz trade helping the Browns right now: Denzel Ward, Damarious Randall, Jabrill Peppers (who was an important part of the Odell Beckham trade), Chad Thomas and a seventh-round pick in this year’s draft.
I'm obviously going to be chastised for saying this, but I think whomever we brought in, whether it was Dorsey, or some other GM to make the decisions, he would have had the opportunity to turn a dying franchise around. I know it's not a popular opinion, and don't get me wrong, I LOVE some of the things Dorsey has done... the ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl. If we do that and erect a statue of Dorsey I'll be happy as a clam.
But according to Excel's logic, [sic] this doesn't count.
Stick to trashing LeBron, Excel. It's what you do best.
Yes, I'm sure device and everybody else did nothing but talk about Sashi in non-direct references, every day for the last two months, all because you found one example of it. While only you Pitt and Diam happened to bring him up by actual name. And you question my logic?
You made a personal attack of device, accusing him of doing something. Device called you out on it. So I looked into bringing actual facts to the table, rather than just casual accusations and name-calling. Searching for a name, while not absolutely perfect, is still going to provide a pretty good baseline of who's mentioning the man in topics. Sorry that you didn't like the results.
So instead, you just go back to personal attacks. If you like, feel free to use the search engine to find examples of where I'm "trashing Lebron". You keep bringing that up in the basketball thread, but either you have no idea what "trashing" is, or you're just making up more baseless accusations of people.
First of all, I am not petty enough to do such a search. And your logic is illogical. If a person replies to a post that has referenced Sashi and says the word "Sashi" than it skews your lame-ass data. Look, I just said Sashi twice. Oh wait, three times.
But you're petty enough to make the accusations with no means of backing them up?
And again, that same logic would still apply to everyone. So, you're saying that everyone else managed to avoid quoting posts that mentioned him and avoided mentioning him by name, but it was only you that fell into that trap?
The article simply points out that Many, Many things got us to the point where we are now. Many of these things were decisions made which were focused towards future goals, rather than "right now" goals, and were made by Sashi. For the future, not the "right now", at the time.
John Dorsey has made a majority of the good decisions for "right now", and many of those were only possible with the resources Sashi provided.
When it is contended that Sashi was a horrible GM, for "right now", he was not so good, but for the future, according to the plan, which is OUR "Right Now", at this present time, he did a lot of good for this team.
Hue Jackson being the worst HC in the history of NFL football was also a good thing, for the future, as if he were just fairly inept and incompetent, we might have won a few games and missed on both Garret and Mayfield. So Hue Jackson's monumental suckitude, while not planned and actually just a happy accident, also helped get us where we are today.
IMO Sashi knew the plan and acted according to it, Hue was just a clueless idiot who played his role.
Those who vilify Sashi frequently do so to mask Hue's failings, much like Hue himself has done and still does.
I don't think anyone vilifies him. I mean he just sucked at drafting talent and wasn't qualified for the job by anything listed on his resume'. I actually kind of felt sorry for him.
Sashi had this idea that the more picks, the more hits you would have.
Well, let's look:
1 15 Corey Coleman WR Baylor 2 32 Emmanuel Ogbah DE Oklahoma State 3 65 Carl Nassib DE Penn State 3 76 Shon Coleman T Auburn 3 93 Cody Kessler QB USC 4 99 Joe Schobert OLB Wisconsin 4 114 Ricardo Louis WR Auburn 4 129 Derrick Kindred SAF Texas Christian 4 138 Seth DeValve WR Princeton 5 154 Jordan Payton WR UCLA 5 168 Spencer Drango G Baylor 5 172 Rashard Higgins WR Colorado State 5 173 Trey Caldwell DB Louisiana-Monroe 7 250 Scooby Wright LB Arizona
How many starters out of this group? I see 1 starter, and 2 backups.
This is only a couple of years ago.
Let's look at 2017's draft:
1 1 Myles Garrett DE Texas A&M 1 25 Jabrill Peppers SAF Michigan 1 29 David Njoku TE Miami (Fla.) 2 52 DeShone Kizer QB Notre Dame 3 65 Larry Ogunjobi DT North Carolina-Charlotte 4 126 Howard Wilson CB Houston 5 160 Roderick Johnson T Florida State 6 185 Caleb Brantley DT Florida 7 224 Zane Gonzalez K Arizona State 7 252 Matt Dayes RB North Carolina State
Myles was an absolute no brainer. Peppers was OK, but I doubt many ears were shed when he left. Njoku has promise, and some level of performance. Ogunjobi is a stud.
So, from Sashi's 2 drafts, 24 picks, 4 first rounders, 2 seconds, 4 thirds, 5 fourths, 5 fifths, 1 sixth and 3 sevenths ..... 6 players remain.
Am I missing anyone?
From his only draft (until today) Dorsey has dramatically upgraded the team. Yes, he inherited extra picks, but he made them count.
Out of his 1st draft, we have the following (expected) starters:
Mayfield Ward Corbett Chubb Avery
We also potential key backups in Thomas and Callaway.
Again, these aren't just draft pick "hangers-on", because the talent level sucks. (like Coleman was) These players have shown that they could be part of the solution for making this team into a playoff team.
Sashi worked his plan for accumulating draft picks, but failed when it came to picking the players. There is only one single starter from the 2016 draft. That's horrible, especially with 14 picks. The whole idea for us letting everyone leave as free agents was to add compensatory picks, to replenish the team. Instead, he decimated the team.
2017 was better, but outside of Myles and Ogunjobi, we have only Njoku. (just 2 years later) That's brutal. Sashi really did get a lot of players who were "not real players." These were Sashi decisions.
Sashi's biggest contribution was the trade with Houston, and to get really lucky that Watson got hurt, so those Texans picks set us for this year. You don't count on a player getting hurt to save your bacon. In the end, even luck couldn't save Sashi from his own incompetence. (and that's not an insult, he simply didn't have the knowledge and/or experience to know what to look for)
I don't want to turn this into another Sashi thread. It's been beaten to death by many...
But I have to say you're doing it wrong.
Sashi didn't fail. He did exactly what he said he would do. Part of the plan was in year 3 to do exactly what Dorsey did and spend assets and upgrade the team. People act like Sashi didn't have a plan and aimlessly drafted multiple players in hopes of hitting on one. And some people act as if Sashi wasn't going to use the assets he accumulated and was just going to keep trading back and form a band of misfits from lesser picks and that was his brilliant plan. This was not the case at all.
We hit on a lot of players under Sashi. Because they are gone means nothing. Absolutely nothing. A new GM is going to gut a team and transform it into his own. Dorsey has done that. Dorsey has done a heck of a job of it and he deserves all the credit in that regard. However, he could not do so without ALL THE ASSETS we had accumulated the previous 2 years which includes Kizer, Peppers, 2nd rd draft picks, EVERYTHING!
Out of the past 2 drafts, I can count 18 (EIGHTEEN!!!)! EIGHTEEN players who are still in the NFL. I'd say of those 18, 11 of them have a significant role or are starting with another team...
I didn't even count the back-up quarterbacks or the Colemans.
I don't know the answer, but I'd LOVE someone to go show me any teams draft over the 2016 and 2017 seasons and compare how many NFL players came out of them. Did some teams have a great few rounds with great players, sure, but how many teams can say that 18 of their players or whatever the number actually is are still in the NFL. I would guess none, but I honestly don't know.
We actually hit on some picks in the later rounds that after some development turned out to be good players... Schobert, Ogunjobi, Kindred, and Higgins to name a few.
I believe there are many people who misinterpret what Sashi and his group were trying to accomplish, but by golly they were on their way. I do not believe he failed.
Ok.
You need your house painted. If I tell you I'm going to paint your house, but I'm going to do it the best way I know how and will paint you the best house that's ever been painted, but it'll take me 5 months to do... You say that's ok and hire me. So I get a paint peeler, strip the paint, tape off certain areas, I might test certain paints, or search for the best prices to try and save a buck or two on certain things, or make sure this is done right or that and after two months you say, hey dude, I don't have all day, you're fired... Did I necessarily fail? I told you it would take 5 months, but after 2 months I was fired from the job. I didn't fail. I wasn't given the chance to succeed.
Next guy comes along, you tell him you don't care what it costs, just get the house painted by the end of the month. He looked at what had been done and says heck yes I'll paint your house. And holy moly, the hard stuff is done, the last guy stripped the old paint, bought all the supplies and paint... all the new guy had to do was apply the paint and fast. He hired a ginormous crew and the house was painted in a week. But my goodness, the house came out looking like a dream! The new guy did such a wonderful job! Of course you think the last guy had no clue what he was doing, all the while, you had no idea how crappy your house would look if I didn't strip the paint, add primer or whatever before I got to the actual painting part.
And...
Lastly, I really wish people wouldn't interpret my posts as a lovefest for Sashi and that I wish he was still here, blah blah blah. I am happier than a clam that Dorsey is here and that we're ready to win NOW. I wouldn't change this for anything. I've said this numerous times.
And I guess it doesn't matter if people think Sashi was worthless or he failed. I don't really care, but since this is a message board, I'll post my opinions... I just can't see how anyone can say Sashi and his group failed or were worthless or did nothing. We've been dormats for 25+ years and being told we have a college atmosphere and this is a place just to collect a paycheck, yada yada yada, blah blah blah, but now we're on the brink of something great. I'm sure most people realize this doesn't happen overnight.
And yes, sure, some aren't going to give any credit to anything that happened before. That's fine, good for them. Again, I honestly have no idea how anyone can logically think that Dorsey could have done what he did without what happened the two years prior to his arrival. And maybe I'm wrong, but it just doesn't make sense to me that if we had hired Dorsey in 2016 that we'd already be talking about how we went to the playoffs last season. If some want to believe that, that's fine with me, I just don't.
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey
device, there are folks who have difficulty see things in anything but black and white. so when you try to provide some color to a situation it just goes right over their heads. truth is, for a few people on here if you paint sashi with anything less than two horns, a tail and breathing fire you will be accused of nominating him for the browns hall of fame.
I do think this article by lesmires (bad spelling) was a pretty good breakdown of what it took to take us from 1-31 to in the hunt for the division. should be a fun season.
I will just chip in that the reason Sashi failed was the QB... In the NFL, the QB is the beginning, middle and end. And Sashi failed to find one.
When two of his passes (Wentz, Watson) started to produce, be became the stupidest man on earth. All those draft choices, and the master plan did not matter, and he was gone.
The first thing for Dorsey was the QB. It was Mayfield.... No messing around, no second thought no playing what ifs, just get your guy and go.
Well, that does sound like a good idea, but remember the beating that Tim Couch took, and how it destroyed him. In Carson Wentz's first year in the league, we gave up 66 sacks. 50 the next year. QBs do not win games from a hospital bed.
Last year, we gave up less than 40 sacks, 13 of those on Taylor. Baker took only 25 or 26 of those. Some of that was his own ability, some was the quality of the players assembled around him.
Spending an overall #1 on a QB to be a punching bag can be a bad investment. Wentz has been a bit injury prone as it is.
Did Sashi "fail" as a GM, well, sure, but did he FAIL at doing the job he was assigned to do, I don't really think so. IMO they just did not plan on Hue Jackson being so spectacularly bad, but, that too has now come to work out in our favor.
I think Sashi knew from day one that his days were numbered after the tear-down and asset acquisition phase was done.
I have stated my position regarding Sashi, and I'm not here to get into yet another argument about it. But I do want to say again, because it is significant, that Sashi never held the title of GM. During the time he was the VP of football operations, the GM position was vacant.
I think Sashi knew from day one that his days were numbered after the tear-down and asset acquisition phase was done.
This is false.
Sashi was quoted by Browns staffers as telling Haslam that if he planned on blowing this up in couple years to not even hire him in the first place. Haslam assured him the allotted time to conduct the turnaround, but he went back on his word and fired Sashi anyway.
The evil Haslam decided to hire someone who actually knew how to build a good NFL roster and build a team that could compete with anyone. What was he thinking?
I'm sure the few select posters pushing their wild theory feel our former team tear downer could have done the same with zero evidence to substantiate that.
You would have to be a total clueless idiot not to see it coming.
Somebody had to be sacrificed.
Picked out of obscurity. No previous experience. Made moves to be bad NOW, but prepared with a foundation to make a move in the future.
If the plan truly was to do a two-year tank, that would have to be kept a deep dark secret all around.
If he truly did not realize what the outcome was going to be for him, I would be greatly surprised.
Would be interesting to look at his salary, on the job, previous salary, and compared to others in the same position. Could be his compensation package is substantial.
That might lend some significance to his actual job title.
I watched what actually happened. What did you see happen?
What was absolutely predictable from the moves made?
I do not think Sashi was supposed to keep the job more than two years.
Noting that he was ever named as GM, why is this so? Salary requirements? Why would somebody so minimally qualified to do the winning GM job, chosen to be, apparently, not technically the GM?
The picks and money available for a qualified, winning GM, are what has put us over the top, going from 0-16 to a Super Bowl pick in two years, with assets and cash to spend to keep it going.
What other strategy can you describe that gets us to this place in that short a period of time?
We've been through this several times on this board, there are thoughts littered about in regards to this subject.
I have no beef or no ill feeling towards you. You made something up that wasn't true. I just simply corrected you. I should have just kept my mouth shut because I should have known who would show up... I'm sorry.
The anti-Sashi crowd will continue to make up falsehoods about Sashi until...well who knows until when... They will bash him far more than those who are grateful will praise him. Don't be one of them... or do, I don't care.
You are stating the plan was not as I speculate, on the basis of second-hand accounts of a conversation that may, or may not, have actually taken place.
IF, repeat IF, the plan WAS as I speculate, efforts would need to be made to conceal it from the league, as well as general public. Those efforts could take many forms, people reporting second-hand conversations could be one of them.
I look at it like a business decision, short-term pain for long-term gain. It worked, other teams are following our lead, because it worked.
I do not think the plan could have been executed as well as it was without at least a few people, such as Sashi, being totally aware of what the plan was, and what the likely consequences would be.
IMO most of the Sashi-bashers are just looking for cover as to why Hue was so godawful.
I am NOT saying Sashi was good, just that he did the intended job as planned. Kinda like a kamikaze pilot, he knew it would not end well for him.
Other than the comment about looking for cover as to why Hue was god awful, I wouldn't say there is much truth to what you said.
The plan wasn't to lose. I think a lot of people misinterpret it as such...but that wasn't the plan.
The thing is if you read what "the plan" was as Sashi laid it out in 2016 and look where we are in year 4, we are exactly where Sashi envisioned the Browns to be. Did he think he was going to be fired? Heck no. Was he going to hire a GM at some point to aid in player selecting and drafting? I couldn't tell you. I did say at one time it was entirely plausible that we could have had BOTH Sashi and Dorsey here (and that's my opinion).
And people are getting caught up on who is making these selections. And I don't really care who is making the selections. Is that a big part of where we are? Sure! But the bulk of my argument is that the Sashi "plan" worked... because here we are.
Sashi will be be bashed for life I'm sure, but I'd imagine he's grinning from ear to ear because the plan he implemented here in Cleveland rebuilt the Browns. And yes, there was a lot of luck that went along with this. I would go as far as to say the plan worked better than expected and that's why some are trying to duplicate it.
So.... I'm sorry to the board for all the Sashi talk and I'm guessing I'm getting right up there now as one who mentions his name the most and that's just fine. Apparently that's a big deal around here.
As the resident Sashi Cultist I feel an obligation to chime in and spread His Word.
I too think a Sashi/Dorsey combination could have been a possibility had things panned out a tad different. In fact I believe I lamented that previously. I think the proof that what Sashi was doing IS a part of what is going on now is in the presence of DePodesta. From all accounts Sashi and DePo were simpatico on what they were doing. I don't think there's any report of any friction between them.
Logic says if what Sashi was doing was a failure, then what DePo was doing was a failure.
DePo is still here doing what he has been doing.
Nelson, I don't agree that Sashi saw the writing on the wall from the beginning, although I'd imagine he knew there was a risk. I'd suggest it probably wasn't until he took the bullet Hue fired when he went rogue and tried to get Mcarron.
I just want to point out this thread had absolutely nothing to do with Sashi -vs- Dorsey, but thanks for crapping all over it anyway.
I believe you. I tried to warn you because I know enough about the author of the articles to know that he is a "blank" dude and that would only lead to guys like device turning this into yet another "blank" thread.
You misunderstood my position and here we are.
Like I said earlier...........it's time to let it go, but some will not allow it. The freaking guy will never get another job in the NFL in a similar role. There are reasons for that.
You're so full of bologna. I wasn't the one who turned this into a Sashi fest. You and your cronies are the ones who brought him up in first place, which is typically the case.
But you will stop at nothing and make up whatever lies you can to drag my name thru the mud. I'm sure the people who post here and read here are tired of you calling out my name and then me continually having to defend the lies you make up about me.
But whatever, just keep doing you if it makes you happy.
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