From PitDawg



Duke Johnson was drafted the year after we signed Isaiah Crowell. They complemented each other perfectly. Then last year we drafted Nick Chubb who is a beast and an every down back. The only time someone was brought in to start ahead of Johnson was last off-season with Carlos Hyde. He was moved when it was realized how much Chubb should play.

I don’t think Johnson is an every down back. I do think he could be the primary running back in an offense that passes the ball a ton.

With the investment in both Chubb and Hunt, I don't see us as the team you describe.

Duke can be a compliment to a feature RB. I certainly won't try to dispute that. Where I think the difference of opinion comes in is how much of an actual contribution will he be? Looking at how Freddie used him in the last half of last season, it appears that contribution won't be a lot within this offense.

For the record, there is no investment in Hunt.
He is the equivalent of finding a $100 bill on your doorstep, and like a found $100 bill, he's here for the short-term.

He will get another contract, for sure, but it might be in the form of us trading him and our trade partner negotiating a new deal with his agent.

So we won't be paying him when he's eligible to play?

Who?

We signed Carlos Hyde in March, the draft was in April. We were not sure, I presume, whether we would get Nick Chubb or any RB for that matter... Hyde was signed to start with Duke staying in the same role he has always been in.. then we drafted Chubb and quickly learned that he could start.... so we sent Hyde away and NOT Duke..

Because of Nick Chubb. Duke Johnson didn't get put on the bench because he isn't good, he got put on the bench because Nick Chubb is a top five player at this position in the league.

Not getting the opportunity to do something and not being able to do something are not the same thing.

Great point, DC. This is what will be fascinating about Hunt v Chubb this season (just much later in the year based on the suspension) as it could be similar to the scenario you mentioned with Hyde v Chubb. They are very similar backs except that, at least right now, Hunt is the better receiving back. I think many people immediately rule Duke as the odd man out, but he brings such a different dynamic than those two that his value is unique. I personally don't see a team with both Hunt and Chubb on it in 2020. I think a decision will need to be made, if both perform well in 2019, which one you would rather have? Because at least at that point, you can get something from Chubb if Hunt proves to be better, or just let Hunt walk in FA if Chubb is the better back. I think both have proven they can be a feature back and might not want to be a back up to the other. Duke's ability to play anywhere and be successful at it can create headaches for teams. If Duke isn't here, it still doesn't mean we shouldn't try to have a player like him. What he does is extremely valuable.

Also this wasn't Kitchen/Monken's offense. Kitchens was calling plays based off of Haley's offense. We really don't know what the offense will look like. We just know that Kitchen's philosophy relies a lot on doing the unexpected. Running when they think we'll pass, passing when they think we'll run. Duke, if used properly, can add a wrinkle into our offense. I think that's one of the primary reasons why he hasn't been traded. Not to mention we only have Hunt on a one year rental, hopefully longer, but we can't commit a lot of money to him.

Kareem Hunt is an exclusive rights free agent after the 2019 season.

You make a good point about Monken. He comes from a pure Air Raid background. Here's Mike Leach on offensive balance:



The problem with all this is that Nick Chubb is great as a pass catcher as well as a runner. That's what will keep Duke Johnson on the bench more than anything.

Do we though?

There were zero expectations or pressure on Kitchen's when he took over. He could get away then with those wild, unexpected plays. All I am saying is, based on the expectations put on the team for this season, I think he'll be a tad more deliberate and conservative with play-calling.

I think CHSDawg was talking more about running when the other team expects pass and pass when the other team expects run.

I know we passed a ton out of two (and three) tight end sets once Kitchens took over the play calling:

Good stuff, cfrs. Thanks for pointing that out.

Exactly what I meant. Also bring back the wing T

The straight T, wishbone, heck even the old single wing can be tough to play against if you don't have ground pounder defense. Just hope this works itself out. The offense during preseason will be interesting.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/video/film-room-freddie-kitchens-play-calling-vs-falcons

j/c:

It's gotten to the point that people are stretching the truth. That's too bad.

Win the argument! To hell w/the truth!

j/c

I keep reading references to Chubb being 'less' than others as a receiver. Every time I think of this play.

Are you talking about on here or in the general media?

Because people on here have been saying he is a good receiver.

Not intending to derail the thread, just making a comment on this. Almost every year I wonder if it'd be better for the NFL to have the draft before FA.

I've never thought of that. Interesting. I need to think about it some more, but again........interesting.

The teams would definitely use this as a way not to pay free agents.

I dunno... I like giving the current players an opportunity first... so kind of like FA before the draft... plus you have a chance to fix issue s in FA which better drives what's you need in the draft... if you switch it you may pay a higher price... with FA first you can always use 'we can just draft a [your position] in negation

J/C ..... I do remember Chubb missing a block and people calling him a bust because he would never be able to block ever ... in his entire career ..... and that he should be tied to the bench forever, until he was cut.

I remember that, too... but I also remember that p.o.v. fading pretty quickly.

Because in the end, people want a back who can bust off long runs.

If you want blocking, put a back-up guard in to the game.

That said, Chubb's blocking is good enough for me.

This was a surprise to see. I love Kosar's analysis too.

These formations can force adjustments. Thanks for the link. Offense needs more wheels, you don't have to invent them always. Chubb could own some of this. BM is still a huge threat, but by forcing attention to RB's, he can be more lethal if a smart coach can find some alternatives to all pass.

I have a good memory and I don't remember that. I remember him missing a couple of blocks and people pointing it out. I also remember people referring to his college days and how he was not asked to block. I do not remember people calling him a bust.

I loved the Chubb pick ... there were a few other backs i would have loved to get there and Chubb was right there at or around the top of the list ... was happy with that pick right out of the gate ...

I was very worried during pre-season ... it looked to me like he was running with a piano on his back ... he looked slow and lethargic to me .... i was worried ...

I pointed out my concern but never called him a bust ... said i hoped time and reps would take care of that and i have no clue what happened but in the regular season there were no piano on the back concerns on my part ... *L* ....

I do remember the blocking concerns ... the big one was on a blocked punt i believe ... huge hoopla over that one ... pics singling him out made it easy to see and he was rightfully lambasted for it ... he basically “alligator armed” (kind of threw his shoulder at dude in passing) the block ...

It never really concerned me cause blocking is all about desire and that dudes desire and work ethic are well beyond reproach ... i have no clue how good he is at it now, but there’s no doubt in my mind he’s working hard at it and will continue to do so until he’s perfected it ...

It was on a poor block on a punt. Nice recall.

Good thing he probably isn't going to be on the punt block team this year, and probably isn't going to be used as a lead blocker on running plays in 2 back sets. In those sets I don't see us doing a lot of lead blocker plunges. I see more a fake inside and the second back taking it wide or some type in interior counter play.

I loved the Chubb pick because I saw a lot of Georgia games over the past few years. I saw the initial slowness as well, but wasn't all that concerned because I knew he had a full set of gears. I just chalked it up to uncertainty causing some hesitation. Pretty common in rooks early on, especially backs. They have to learn the plays like any other player, but they have to learn to read their linemen. All linemen approach a block a little differently. Some go in to it early, some wait a little longer, thus the back has to know that or he can make his lineman look like a oaf who can't make a block if the back cut out of the block and the lineman looks like he is blocking air.

Actually exactly how cfr described. The question I believe you pose is that will Hunt replace Duke in "THAT DESCRIPTION".

I think Duke is a threat in space more than Hunt but I think Hunt would pose fear to DBs more than Duke. Both run good routes and have good hands.

The only question is how far into the 8 game suspension do we end up trading Duke. Unless Duke literally tears it up and there are no injuries to Chubb.

But the scenario drawn up by cfr seems a very plausible one.

jmho

One of the knocks on Chubb coming out of college was that he wasn't effective running routes out of the backfield. The thing is he wasn't asked to do that much at Georgia.

It turns out that he was very good at it. I'm sure he improved along the way. He runs for power, can break off the big one, effective in the passing game, and maybe the most underrated thing of all: zero fumbles. He had an all-around outstanding year.

Chubb still isn't a great pass blocker, but he wasn't asked to do that much in college. He might improve on it and he might not, but given the rest of his game, I don't see him on the bench much.

Which only backs up my point. Duke had just been given a contract, yet while having Duke on the roster, they still went out and signed an "average at best" RB in Hyde for the starting RB role.

Had they have seen Duke as a starting RB, they would have signed a back up RB for Duke. Yet people keep trying to claim Duke is the back up starter now. It's a nice "possible scenario", yet nobody knows if that's true.

I just wanted to back up my point that Hyde wasn't seen as some great back. But rather a place holder until he was replaced. In 2017, the year before we signed him, he averaged just 3.9 yards per carry. Had they have seen Duke as this great threat and weapon, why would anyone have signed a RB that averaged less than 4 yards per carry to start over Duke?

If you would follow most people's arguments on this topic, this is not on the top of the list. Do some people think Duke is a backup? I don't know...maybe. Being a backup RB or not is nowhere near the argument most people are making. And I don't think that is the argument DC is making

No, it's just one point that some people are making.

Here's another. People claim it was Haley's playbook and it was. Yet there were plays within that playbook that called for Duke to be used.

So if this is a reasoning for why Duke wasn't used more in the second half of last season, that would force one to lead to the conclusion that Freddie decided not to use those plays very often and/or lacked the ability to execute small wrinkles into those same plays to expand Duke's role in contributing.

It would mean that Freddie simply refused to use some great weapon he had at his disposal. None of that makes sense to me. The logic used by those making this talking point is that Freddie not only used Haley's playbook, but called the same percentage of plays for Duke. Why would he do that if Duke had the ability to be a huge contributor?

Maybe it's the fact that Baker rarely uses dump off passes and tends to be a better QB when he pushes the ball down the field. That's what I saw. And Duke simply doesn't seem to fill that role.

Yeah, that is another argument at the bottom of the list. Duke was used more efficiently by Kitchens over Haley- And I'm not talking targets, carries, etc. It's also where Duke got all of his 2018 TDs.

For me, this isn't an argument about who has used him more or less. I'm saying, since he has been here, he has been under utilized period.. by EVERY coach. Simply putting him on the field as an option more would help this team.

Once more I ask you: In place of who?

Which other weapon do you diminish in order to accent Duke?

Landry? OBJ? Callaway? Chubb? Njoku? Higgins? I also expect that we will use the TE Harris a fair amount as well in 2 TE formations.

I can argue that every one of these players is of more value on offense than Duke.

We can only put 5 weapons on the field at any time. Of the 6 (or 7) of the players I listed above, whose playing time do you diminish to increase Duke's?

You can line up Duke on 4 WR sets. He can go in the backfield on 1st down where more teams are now passing. You can have two back sets. Will it take a WR off the field sometimes? Yeah it would, but increasing Duke's snap count by 15% while decreasing others', variably, by 5% is fine by me.

Landry? Sure get him off he field. It's fine by me.
Have all WRs/Duke on the field and not Njoku? Cool.
Put two backs on the field and remove either Calloway/Higgins. Cool.
Spell any WR for a play or two because he has been playing a lot. Cool.

I don't understand why this is difficult for you.

Side note: I don't get all the Demetrius Harris love unless you have a fetish for blocking and dropped passes from a TE. Dropped passes are clearly a weakness for Njoku but he is a far superior weapon. I would hope, YTown, in 2 TE sets, we are using Njoku and Devalve....at least on passing downs.

Duke lined up inside and outside last year.

Where did he rank on yards/catch, compared to the other main receivers?

Duke is a nice piece to mix into the offense, but he is not one of the top pieces. Maybe 40 or so touches, on 100 snaps is about right .... because when we add Hunt in game 9, well, then Duke has no role. Hunt is better than Duke in every single way imaginable on the football field. There is no realistic argument on this.

Last year was his least productive year, by far. It's because he was no longer a focal point of the offense. Suddenly we had other, better weapons around him. We had a QB who didn't dump off all the time. We had a workhorse, and super productive feature back. Duke was an extra, not a central piece. I don't see any realistic way that changes going forward.

Look, I like Duke, in a limited role. He's a useful player, and he doesn't whine and complain about his role. That said, he's a depth piece. He's useful, but not a prime player in terms of production. If you take any of our receivers off the field to add him to the field, you trade off higher production for lesser, and that makes no sense.

I expect that Duke will be gone by week 1 of the season. I know the team really likes Hilliard, and I suspect that we'll keep a 3rd RB on the practice squad, and wait out the 1st 8 weeks. I do think that Duke will be featured, at least somewhat, in the preseason, though.

It's pretty difficult, for not only most fans to see this, but for the coaching staff to see it as well.

So reducing the play of your top WR's in order to place your sixth best weapon on the field to play is something everyone should be able to see?

We have four WR's good enough to start on most NFL teams. OBJ, Landry, Calloway, and Higgins. Then we have Njoku as another of the top 5 targets. You do understand that they will have time to rest without needing a fifth WR as a substitute.

But I'm not surprised we have posters who think they know which of our players deserve playing time more than the HC does.

WHue doesn't?

But hey, if you want to pass against 5 dbs and run with 7+ in the box, go for it. We've seen how it goes for most teams.

I disagree in about every point you made, including the whine and complain part. He has complained/held out the past two seasons.

We'll leave it at that.

I disagree with your premise that Duke is our sixth best weapon, namely, but not exclusively, because our weapons are not linear and equal across all situations.

Obviously you do. But thus far the coaching staff doesn't disagree.

And coaching staffs for this organization have been wonderful.

I guess you missed the last half of the 2018 season. Hue actually used Duke more. Sorry to let those facts interfere with the discussion.

Evident by what tho? He asked to be traded and has been denied. That's not exactly an indicator that the coaching staff and FO believe he's not needed.

You must be including Freddie in that group.

I have no idea about Freddie. Good or bad. He took over the offense for 8 games and now he is the HC.

That doesn't exclude the historic ineptitude we've had, does it?

By 30 snaps lol

It also doesn't mean you can exclude Freddie from the conversation either.

Nope Freddie is not excluded.

So neither coach sees him as a big weapon. Got it!

Yet 30 more snaps in eight games means there was over 3 more snaps per game. So thanks for playing!

That's pretty insignificant, but ok.

Also relying on Hue to gauge success is pretty stupid. Historically it's never worked out well.

I think Bob Seger would agree with me.

I think many are reminiscing back to the days when duke was one of our top two offensive threats. today while our threats may not be “linear and equal in all situations”, duke is at best our 6th option in the passing game and our third option in the run game. Plus both running backs ahead of duke do quite well catching passes out of the backfield. barring injury duke will be a non factor after game 9. He was a vital cog before but not any more.

j/c

I wonder how much the way we practiced played into the amount of touches Duke got. From my understanding, we didn't tackle a lot in practices. In games, it kind of showed. Nearly every time Duke got tackled he looked slightly shook up. It's hard to leave a guy like that (one who looks "hurt") in the game to get more touches. It appeared kind of like he wasn't used to the physicality. Will he get used to it if we have more physical practices?

I'm all for keeping guys healthy. However, in retrospect, it looks like Hue may have erred much too far to the side of keeping them healthy over getting them ready for the rigors of actual games.

The CBA may have played in some, but based on some of the things Haley and Kitchens said during Hard Knocks, it didn't account for the extremes we apparently went to.

It's almost like Hue was coaching scared. Injuries are going to happen. You can't wrap guys in bubble wrap all offseason and then expect them to be able to take hits. Hue knew he didn't have much margin for error, though. Chubb was unproven and a rookie. Duke was possibly our most dynamic proven weapon going into camp last year.

I'm not trying to turn this into a bash Hue deal. Just trying to look at possible unmentioned underlying reasons for Duke's touches (or lack thereof) last season.

Any former RBs/Coaches/others have opinions on the you have to get hit to get used to getting hit idea? It's been awhile, but it seems to fit my recollection. Every season it took some time to "toughen up". We hit a lot, though. Lots of Oklahoma and angle tackling drills.

This is not true. I have posted the numbers for Duke in comparison to similar style backs across the NFL and Duke got more touches than any of them other than McCaffrey when Hue was calling the plays.

You're really good w/the search feature. Perhaps you could look up the posts I made about that and put those stats up here again for all to see.

I have a feeling that is one search you are not interested in. To hell w/the truth when winning an argument is the key.

Why are you making this about Hue when I said I think EVERY coach has under utilized him?

So Hue used him more than other coaches? Cool....It still wasn't enough.

I am not making it about Hue. I am saying you are wrong. Go ahead...........find the post I made that compared Duke's touches to all the backs who are similar to him. You always brag about how good you are at searching. Do it.

I mean, you do want the truth, right? You really aren't trying to deceive people, right? Go ahead and post the stats I provided on multiple occasions.

I think everyone on here knows you won't do that. I think most know your game.

Reading Pit's comment there, all he mentioned was that it appears that his contribution won't be a lot within this offense. He does not mention ability, or lack of. Duke's touches went down.

Duke is a nice player, I have said that multiple times. I do not have a problem with him as a player. He is no where near Chubb in ability, and as you point out that affects his playing time. No one would feature Duke over Chubb.

Fast forward 8 games, when Hunt is available. Hunt is a top 5 NFL RB. Duke goes from a distant 2nd RB to an even more distant 3rd RB. I imagine Duke's utilization drops even more.

I am not sure I would say Duke "got put on the bench." That makes it sounds like he was a starter and then lost the starting gig. Duke was not a starter. He "spent more time on the bench."

I'm tired of this.

Duke is not an every-down back.

He is a player who can contribute with little touches in the right spots. In space, he's got quicks. He also seems to have heart, and is willing to drop the hammer and play football.

I'd rather keep him at least until Hunt is close to returning. Injuries happen, eh?

I would not even object to keeping him as our third back after that.

Edit: for the rest of 2019, I mean.

What's all the fuss over a marginal running back????

Duke is replaceable. We probably already have his replacement for the opening day roster.

I disagree with that statement. After that blocked punt (which isn't past protection) Chubb scored higher than Hyde or Duke in past blocking per pff, and I don't recall him getting beat or the mention of such for the remainder of the season. It's like Diam said ... blocking is more about attitude. Chubb is a Warrior.

j/c, folks are sleeping on Hillard.

Even with DJ. If Chubb where (God forbid) injured. Hillards role might just become the lead RB.

People keep saying who is Duke going to replace? He doesn't have to replace anybody because on 3rd or 4th down Chubb comes out and Duke goes in. Last year on 3rd down and 4th down (when we didn't punt) Chubb only touched or was targeted with the ball 11 times with 10 rushes and 1 pass thrown his way, Johnson had 38 touches/targets with 10 rushes and 28 passes thrown his way. Hunt like Chubb doesn't see the field much on 3rd or 4th down, he had 14 rushing attempts and 5 targets in the passing game.

I agree, and we just added some backs in FA.

Last year we played a lot of max protect using 2, maybe even 3 TE sets. I think we will still do that this year as well. One of those guys can peel off as a safety valve if he doesn't have to pick up a blitz.

Duke is simply insurance at this point. Every team in the league knows he is available. Once a back goes down in camp, the Browns will get a call.

Yeah,, we'll be paying him,,, chumpchange compared to what he's worth if clean.

I may be wrong, But I think Purps point was that what we agreed to isn't much of an investment.

I agree ... and I think that is how to get the most value in return. Case in point Carlos Hyde.

This take here. Frustrating.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see Freddie's take here in TC when it comes to player participation and intensity

"Folks are sleeping on Hilliard."

This.

6. One of the reasons the Browns could trade Johnson is Dontrell Hilliard. The Browns front office is run by scouts at heart, meaning they love to find undrafted players who contribute. Hilliard made the team in that capacity last season. Listed at 5-11, 202 pounds, he showed up having added 10 more pounds and seems faster.

7. Nick Chubb is the starter. Kareem Hunt was eye-popping in various drills, but he’s suspended for the first eight games. Johnson is sitting out. Hilliard has a chance to get noticed, and he’s doing exactly that.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/05...erry-pluto.html



Dontrell Hilliard || "Untouchable" ᴴᴰ || Official Tulane Highlights

Lot to like about Dontrell.

From the day that Hunt was signed I have maintained that Duke's day were numbered.

Just business. Nothing against Duke.

Yep, his post was total "Bull" crap. The constant agenda crap is beyond old.

i havent seen such a marginal player debated since Kenny Britt.
on the list of most talented players on the Browns,Duke isnt even top 15 if you rated them.
yeah he catches the ball but does nothing after the catch.
Dorsey has upgraded the talent level all over the roster.
sorry this isnt 2016 or 2017.
Duke can be replaced. its not that hard.

No offense, but Duke is way, way better than Kenny Britt.

I think you're absolutely spot on with this take. The CBA already severely limits the amount of practice time, and what coaches are allowed to do with that time.

Football is a tough game but football players need to play football to improve. This is especially true for offenses, which require a high level of timing and rhythm to operate effectively.

It is true that players sometimes get tired or banged up, but then you might have 3 backs, 3 tight ends, and 5 receivers active for a game and only a total of 5 will be on the field at once. Next man up.. having them all at 100% but none of them ready to play is great for the players, but not so great for the win column.

Duke has a nice skill set and can be very effective with some offensive creativity. It's the combination of abilities as a back and receiver that would make him dangerous in the right hands.

I agree that he can be replaced, but he's already on the team and it's unlikely another third back (after Chubb and Hunt) is going to provide similar value, so there's that.

There just isn't much football to talk about right now..

this guy is better than Kenny Britt.

Yeah...but can he hang with Dwayne Bowe?

Duke Johnson and Kenny Britt in the same sentence. Wow. The disrespect.

Just to get back on true topic, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Duke Johnson can't be replaced, as most 3rd down backs can.

The reality here is Dukes timeline as a Brown is at max 1 season. The question mark lies as to when it actually happens, and deciphering if its better to do it now versus later. Two factors on it happening more sooner, would be:

1 - Hilliards success.If he succeeds, then the front office may see him as #2 behind Chubb until Hunt gets back. Then either bring in another back, or keep someone we already have as #3 (again, until Hunt gets back).

2 - Other teams needs. If an injury happens to a starter, or a team needs to add a 'final' piece to their offense, then they may make an offer.

I guess it is possible but most likely not probable.

You can't say: "we want guys who want to be here." And “Duke is a Cleveland Brown.” He has to be a professional.

Then Baker says "it is self inflected." And basically you are either on the train or off.

The problem is not Duke. He was told before he requested the trade. We are looking to trade you. It was common knowledge. They could not find a trade partner and get what they felt he was worth.

All the loyalty talk is just that talk. This is business. There is no loyalty either way. Think McCoy. Or any vet getting older. They are always looking to replace you with younger an cheaper.

So now what is created is self inflected. We want guys who want to be here. Oh, you are under contract; be a professional.

Duke will be gone as soon as Dorsey can get a decent return. Until then he has to be loyal.

A lot of fans can't seem to separate business with fandom. They can't see how teams are very disloyal to players yet feel the players owe loyalty to a team. A complete double standard exists often in what we deem as fandom.

For fans it's a passion that makes them loyal to a team. For those who work in the NFL, it's their business. Two completely different perspectives.

That is the point.

On three different occasions with three different ex-NFL players by chance I was thrown together with them in a work environment.

It was an eye opener. Because I got to spend a bunch of time with them. Work time, lunch time, outside of work time.

All three guys told me the same thing. They want that paycheck for as long as they can get it. All the rah rah stuff is for fans.

That is not to say they don't want to win. Or, if they are on a given team that they don't want the team to be successful.

Big time players that get a second contract and those that get to play ten years maybe they have more luxury for team spirit.

According to the NFL Players Association the average career length is about 3.3 years. The NFL claims that the average career is about 6 years (for players who make a club's opening day roster in their rookie season).

Duke wants to show he is worth more to another team because he knows he will not get the chance to show it here.

Given the rise of Hilliard; who "wants to be here."

It would not surprise me if Duke was cut.

Cutting Duke would be idiotic on so many levels.

That may be. But it's hard to go around and say you only want people who want to be here. And it's a total distraction having your QB making statements to the press about how this is all duke's fault. That isn't conducive to the message you're claiming to make.

So from that perspective it's not an outlandish prospect to consider.

Both outlandish and non-outlandish prospects of something happening can equally be considered idiotic.

If we can't find a trade option, how so?

You play him.

My goodness have you left out a TON of context there. CNN-worthy type of left out.

For real. Does anyone think the players are thinking about Duke Johnson other than when the media asks about him?

I am not passing judgement.

What I said was it would not surprise me.

If somehow Freddie creates an artificial bandage and all parties start singing a different tune.

Maybe it is salvageable. But right now it is does not seem that way.

In addition someone else needs to want Duke and be willing to give up something acceptable in compensation.

Maybe it happens or maybe it does not.

Maybe Hilliard beats Duke out. Or, maybe that is what is given to the media.

I would say it is not salvageable if Johnson didn’t show up. He’s there, that’s something. With all that said, the most likely outcome is a trade.

"You’re with the team, or you aren’t and that any awkwardness for Johnson is “self-inflicted.”

Yeah, go ahead and spin how this wasn't negative towards Duke.

"Maybe Hilliard beats Duke out."

This.

I think players, as well as fans, will wonder if someone is really doing everything they can to win, if the player is doing their best to be traded.

Fans don’t matter in this context. If the players do the same thing they would have done anyway, it’s not a distraction.

After we play Chubb, and Hilliard?

Calling Alluding to Hillard being more valuable than Duke at this point is you, not me.

Simply limiting Duke's role as a #2 RB after Chubb is you, not me.

It's the truth. I don't have a problem with it. I would have had a problem had he answered the question saying everything is slick.

I think it is the staffs view as well. Hilliard already has Dukes spot, and Duke knows it.

So...your defense of your bloviating and agenda-posting is to post the answer...without including the question. Do you even know what was the question asked of Baker?

Classic.

The media asks gotchya questions all of the time. The solution is to know how to answer them. There's no agenda here. He said something he shouldn't have said. Young people do that a lot.

You could just man up and admit that and stop bloviating at any point now.

So your saying your OPINION of what he said was the wrong thing to say.

I wonder what the players think about what he said? The only other OPINIONS that actually matter, because yours and mine don't mean squat to them.

What you perceive as fact (your opinion on this topic) means absolutely nothing more than a soft poop nugget.

Then quit regurgitating soft poop nuggets. I keep forgetting that's the only way your ilk knows how to discuss things anymore.

You see, it doesn't really matter what "the other players think" about his comments. They are the employees. What matters is what his bosses think and how it looks in public.

I see you would much rather sling crap than actually have a discussion. Try to avoid that. It's not football talk. Keep it in the political forum where it belongs. It's not Bakers job to comment on player movements, trades and labor disputes between the FO and another player. He's a QB not in the player relations department.

Now you keep throwing insults and avoid actually holding a discussion. That's all you're good at. And not really that good at that.

Some of us care more about the truth and accuracy of what people say. Others seem to care more about saying politically correct things 'at the right time'.

Some of the things that Baker says are like a breath of fresh air to the first group, but really seem to bother the second.

Politics and business aren't the same thing. If he were being honest he would might have said, "Well, the FO put Duke on the trading block first so I can understand why he doesn't feel supported by the FO."

Is that the kind of honest you mean?

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/06...first-unit.html

So you are saying you think Dorsey sucks for doing that?

No offense and I am not trying to fight w/you, but this statement does not make sense to me.

The media asking questions about this situation and our coaches and players having to answer them is in and of itself....a distraction.

I see the sides have already hunkered down and slinging missels [not necessarily you] at the opposing lines, but having your second year qb who has less seniority in the league and has an overall losing record chastising one of his teammates in the press is not ideal. Instead, it is a distraction.

I am not saying I am right and I don't want to get into the back and forth w/certain posters who always resort to personal attacks, but I think it would behoove the Browns to diffuse this situation sooner rather than later.

The above are opinions.

A distraction from what though? Answering a different question?

Come on, you are smarter than that. We both know that the media is typically at the forefront of escalating stories and creating distractions. They do it by questioning each and every move a coach makes who is under the proverbial hot seat. They do it be elaborating on a player missing OTAs. They do it on pending free agency.

The constant questions are a distraction and having one player call out another player in the media is not a positive.

I hope this blows over and it may, but this is the type of distraction that this young team and new coaching staff does not need.

Again, these are my opinions.

I want to add something that most will not understand. But, there is an unwritten rule in professional sports.

Don't ever mess w/another man's money.

That rule wasn't followed in Pittsburgh last year and holy hell broke out. We have a player on our team who does not understand that rule. He needs to mature and no statement by a media type after one day of mini-camp will change that.

Not to nitpick, but that doesn't make sense.

Baker's record in games he's played: 7-7
Duke's record in games he's played: 11-52-1
Duke's record in games he played, without Baker Mayfield: 4-45-1

I realize these aren't exactly apples to apples comparisons-- different teams, different positions, and so on. However, let's not pretend that Duke is beyond criticism because he was part of this outstanding veteran group that predated Baker's time here, or whatever you're getting at.

Duke is under contract with the Browns and would be under the same contract if he were traded to another team. Part of the reason a team would trade for him would be to get that contract so it seems unlikely they'd renegotiate it right off the bat.

I'm not going to argue w/you, but a qb's record is based on games started, not games played.

As for the rest, I understand why you don't think I am the one not making sense.

I was hoping for a decent conversation w/cfrs and some others, but I see that isn't going to happen. Have fun.

The only game the "games started vs games played" distinction would come into play would be week 3 vs NYJ.

In that game, Tyrod Taylor went 4/14 for 19 yards, taking 3 sacks in the process. He was benched with the Browns trailing 0-14.

In came Baker Mayfield, who effortlessly marched the Browns down the field for a touchdown. The Browns ended up winning the game 21-17.

If you want to give Tyrod Taylor credit for that win, more power to you. I'll take the common sense, know-it-when-you-see-it standard over the official stat, since the latter makes no sense in this case.

I am not "giving" anything. I am going by official NFL records.

Please stop.

Arguing over his record isn't that important. The important thing is that he called out a fellow teammate and that is indeed a distraction. Please stop deflecting simply in order to win another argument.

Btw..............this is precisely why I don't like talking to you. You try much too hard to win rather than discuss.

Back to Duke Johnson:

I think that any team wanting to trade for him will try to get him on the cheap.

His average contract value per year is 11th in the NFL.

This year he would cost us against the cap to trade him. The next 2 years we would save cap space if we traded or cut him. I think he's here this year, and may be cut next year ..... since most teams don't want a backup RB on a contract paaying them $4 and $5 million/year.

Back to? Baker's comments about Duke were about Duke. There is no back to. Just because some may not want to hear it doesn't change a thing.

Most back up RBs make 4-5 million a year. See Dion Lewis or James White.

Am I seriously reading this. Whoa! Duke was not in position to win games from a solo role in a way that the COACH OR THE QUARTERBACK WERE, x a Million!

How about how Duke was playing Before Hue arrived, were there individual plays that won games, some days he was the (one of the) only guy(s) on offense getting first downs.

And He was the 2ND RUNNING BACK!, it's like giving a speeding ticket an blame for driving to a child in a back seat car seat, to assign wins vs. losses to the solo play of the 2nd RB, who performs well.

Is this true? "Most?"

Stop what? Can't handle a reasonable critique about one of your posts? You used your "official NFL records" to say that Mayfield is a losing quarterback which is technically true, but you left out the fact that is only true when counting the Jets game as a win for Tyrod Taylor and not Baker Mayfield.

Anybody who watched that game knew that Mayfield came down when the Browns were down 0-14 and he was the only Browns QB that helped the team win that day.

Pick any of a hundred quotes about stats that you like. “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.”

I'm sure Mayfield and Duke will be fine so long as Duke spends spends his time and energy helping the Browns win instead of trying to find another team to play for.

Seriously, there was a report in one of these threads that said the two were fine at practice. Much ado about... very little... as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I know, I already addressed this in that very post:

"I realize these aren't exactly apples to apples comparisons-- different teams, different positions, and so on. However, let's not pretend that Duke is beyond criticism because he was part of this outstanding veteran group that predated Baker's time here, or whatever you're getting at."

I do think that if Duke were as vital a player as he seems to think that we'd have won a few more games over the years but I'm by no means blaming him for all those losses. There were obviously a lot of things that went wrong during his time here that had little or nothing to do with him.

Stop what? Stop deflecting. I cited a NFL stat. Not an opinion.

It isn't even all that important to the real point. You are simply trying to discredit my opinion by deflecting.

You and Nelson win. I'll stop. But, that changes nothing!

Yes. Most back up running backs who have gotten a second or third NFL contract make about 4-5 mil a year. Mark Ingram, Gio Bernard, Jerrick, Latavious Murray all get paid more than Duke. Just because Alvin Kamara and Nick Chubb get paid less than 1 mil a year doesn't mean that you can find a top 10 RB in free agency for a million dollars. Maybe if we learn that there's a difference between free agent contracts and rookie deals, we can push pass this stupid line of thinking all together. If people want to get a good grasp on the economics of the position then people should focus on team positional spending at the position instead of individual contracts. See how much the average team spends (8.5 mil) vs. what we spend 7 mil. But who knows. Maybe the Patriots are idiots because they spend 100k less on their third string RB than the Browns do.

We've been through this before. I like Baker's demeanor and call-it-as-he-sees it attitude, you don't, and we'll probably never agree when he does something that goes against the grain. Whatever.

Duke probably needed a little reality check. On his best day, he's the 5th best option on this team (OBJ, Landry, Chubb, and Hunt). He'd be 8th if you add Callaway, Higgins, Njoku, maybe even a couple others.

He's a shifty third down back that can catch the ball well out of the backfield or in the slot. He has been misused in the past and he can be a useful contributor, but not like he's a game-breaking player. If even a single other GM thought of him that way, he'd have been traded a long time ago.

Correction: Baker marched down the field for a field goal. My memory was off on that... for some reason I remember it as a touchdown. My bad. I still feel the same way about the rest of the post though.

Anyway, back to Duke: https://chiefswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/...b-duke-johnson/


It seems like there's a lot of speculation there. Reid has been known to get the most out of backs like this though, going back to his time in Philly with Brian Westbrook and LeSean McCoy.

I'm not really interested in helping the Chiefs out anyway, but if the price is right..

Whats your source in saying Duke feels he is such a vital player to this team?

Dukes deal is he feels the Browns aren't being loyal to him, as he feels hes been loyal to the Browns.

Really?

Duke is the 11th highest paid RB by annual average.

Running Back Contracts and Salaries | Over The Cap
https://overthecap.com/position/running-back/

Dion Lewis is 14th, and White is 17th. The highest paid backup RB, though, is Duke Johnson.

Yes. Average annual contract is a bad metric to use because it's not representative of any season nor does it factor in future contracts RBs might receive. If you're using it to forecast the RB market, then you will not be able to get an accurate reading. Especially when it comes to interfacing with RBs on the 5th year. For example, average salary says that Melvin Gordon is paid 2.5 mil avg per season, but ignores that he's getting paid 5.5 mil this year.

Instead, I would again, suggest using positional salary per team or at least focus it on a couple of years. For example, in 2019 Duke will make 3.1 mil per year and is the 20th highest paid RB in the NFL. Jerick McKinnon is the highest paid back up this year (and when you average their salary) at 5.75 and 7.5 respectably.

Even next year Duke is going to make 4 mil a year, and will be the 13th highest paid RB in the league assuming that many RBs like Melvin Gordon and Derrick Henry don't sign an NFL contract, which is a rather ludicrous assumption.

Yes. Yes it most certainly is.

Then look at his cap hit.

Cap hit:

2019: $3.05 million
2020: $4,85 million
2021: $5.9 million

His signing bonus is only $750K/year. So, if we deduct that bonus, he's still a very highly paid RB. If you want to knock out the $100K workout bonus, he's still at $4 million and $5 million.

He's well paid for an NFL RB, especially a backup.

Now, 20th highest paid.... 15th highest paid .....as CHS noted above, by cancelling out his signing bonus (which no one does for cap purposes) then fine ....... is Duke the 15th, or 20th best, most productive RB in the NFL? He's the 3rd best, most productive RB on his own team. (assuming that Hunt returns to form on the field)

This year it would cost the Browns a million dollars, against the cap, to cut or trade Duke. Next year the team can see a cap savings if they cut or trade him. I think he's here this year, unless we get a knock out type offer for him.

Are you talking about cap hit or actual cash earnings? Spotrac is pretty good for information on this. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/duke-johnson-16801/

So for example, last year Duke made 5.9+ mil in cash but 3.89 mil cap hit (signing bonus is cash now but prorates the cap hit over multiple years). This year he'll earn 2.3 mil cash, but the cap hit is 3.0+ mil, and so on. He has made plenty for what he brings.

Running back is an odd position because when a team pays a RB big money, they're almost always paying for past performance. Look at the teams paying big money for free agent RBs-- not good teams, in most cases. I don't know why we would want to follow their lead.

I'm saying trades, player contracts, comments on those situations and dealing with such situations are the job of coaches and the FO, not the players. To defer to those people and staying in your own lane is the proper way to conduct your business.

I'm also saying that if a player knows that the FO sees him as expendable, it only stands to reason he may not hold the greatest of loyalty in return.

I think you knew exactly what I meant to begin with.

And it's a total distraction having your QB making statements to the press about how this is all duke's fault.

I know your interpretation of distraction falls under the dislikes some have for Baker.

But I must of missed this, can you share? I have seen no distraction on this team let alone by their amazing leader.

It's has nothing to do with a dislike for Baker. It has everything to do with young people saying things they shouldn't say sometimes. It's not that big of a deal. But for people not to see it is hilarious.

Says two of the 4 or so menZas that believe VG is overpaid ... and the metric they use to prove it is his __________ ....

... u guessed it ... his average annual contract #...

Oh the sweet sweet irony ... *LOL* ...

Are you talking about the comment about Duke basically making his own bed???

Again if that was the comment you were referring to...your personal dislikes of Baker were obvious in you rendition of what transpired. I fail to see this being a distraction of any kind created by Baker. To come up with that interpretation and representing it as a fact shows some disdain for our QB and ironically liked by one who definitely disdains the young QB.

You should actually show that it was your opinion.
I read it as a fact and was wondering what he said. He pretty much towed the line of his HC. I just don't see how that would remotely be a "Distraction" Baker hater saying you ARE NOT does not cut the cheese when your actions show otherwise...lol

I'm actually wearing a Baker Nike T-shirt as you spew your drivel.

I don't care what you think Tab. Because it seems you don't actually do much of that.

Baker can say a anything he desires and there will never be any backlash.
why?
hes the franchise qb
the leader of this team
Those things insulate him from backlash.
Duke wants to be traded.
he wants more snaps.
understandable.
this isnt 2016 or 17.
hes not the best player on offense anymore
hes a 5th option who cant even return kicks

Average Salary = #4 WR
Guaranteed $$ = #5 WR
Practical Guaranteed = #5 WR
Contract Total $$ = #5 WR

Choose any metric you'd like, but here are 4.... 4 for 4 menzas.

Or a straight up lie ... u may wanna check your sources on the average ... he’s 8th at both sites i went too ... i’ll provide a link to one of them ... u didn’t provide one at all ... i’d Like to see where the differences lie ... *L* ...

According to over the cap VG is 8th in average salary for 2019 .....

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/

According to the same site VG is 10th in 2019 cap hit ...

https://overthecap.com/position/wide-receiver/2019/

I wonder why your site has such different numbers ... u gotta love the internet ... *L* ...

Not sure what the other three metrics u used are worth to what u said .. it was between average and cap hit ... now sure u even provided the cap hit in your 4 for 4 (wonder how many of the are wrong as the average takes him from 5th to 8th ... NICE JOB DAWG ... *L* ....) ... i have no clue what practical guaranteed means ... my guess is was the only other metric that fit your BS opinion ... *LOL* ..

Where did he rank in cap hit for this year on your site? ...

So thats 3 for 4 at best menZa .. and seeing as how your site is 0 - 1 in accuracy thats a big if ... *L* .. i have no desire to check it as i could care less ...

You're right, the least important metric of the ones I provided is 8th, instead of 5th-- not really much better. The others were correct.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/wide-receiver/

Is that all it takes to go from overpaid to not-overpaid?

He was never overpaid ....

Huh .. i just went and looked ... on the link u provided when u click on the average salary tab it says VG is 8th ... in your initial post u stated VG was 4th in average salary ....

Thats very mis-leading at best ... hopefully it was just a mistake ...

And the metric u like way more than the average yearly salary according to u is the cap hit for this year metric .. that metric puts VG right around where he should be at #10 in 2019 ....

Knock yourself out dude ... i’m done fact checking u here ... *L* ...

I'm not sure why we're knocking his bonuses off. Our numbers digressed, because I rounded up as an act of generosity.

Yes, he's not going to be the 13th or 15th best back in the NFL. But again, the market has a fixed floor. A more accurate representation would be team overall spending or comparing him to players who have signed a contract. Comparing him to a back up RB on their rookie deal is disingenuous. So my question is, who is he overpaid compared to? Because to me it looks like he got a similar contract to Dion Lewis and James White, which sounds about right. What RB would you rather have at 5.5 mil over the next 3 years?

Look, I understand the analytics of drafting a RB to save money, but to assume said draft pick is just automatically going to be better than DUke Johnson is absurd.

To me the point would be that many teams would see it as far wiser to draft a RB with a similar skill set than to trade a current player on their roster for a much higher paid RB with that skill set.

The RB position is highly undervalued in the NFL at the current time IMO. But unless a team suffers an injury and has an immediate need, drafting a RB would be much wiser from a cap perspective than losing a player on your roster and paying that price tag.

Yes, I like Spotrac as well. As for this question, because if you're building a team around a run game they're important to have. That's why Gurley makes bank, and why Melvin Gordon and Zeke will soon start getting paid as well. Yes, you certainly don't want to be the Jets reaching for a RB in FA. However, spending high at RB isn't uncommon. The Rams and Patriots have been in the top 5 for the past two years in spending. Both spending over 10 mil a year this year. To put it in perspective, we'll be spending $5 million next season at the position.

We luckily have a lot of cheap talent at that position.

I would agree with you when it comes to premiere RB's. But that's really not a part of the equation here.

I have no idea why there is all this angst about how much we pay Jarvis. it is like the money is being deducted directly from some folks checking accounts. he is a part of this team that is back to relevance. His pay will not affect us when it comes time to pay our qb so I am not worried about what he makes. I care about his catches, his touchdowns and his leadership. that is why he is here!

Sure it is. When premiere running backs are operating on their rookie deal like most of them are, their salaries will reflect the spot they got drafted in. Not their performance. So you will have many RBs being paid less than any running back on their second or third deal. Those players are not going to be getting that pay rate once they get on their veterans contract. If you look at the actual market, you'll see that top notch RBs are getting paid 10-14 mil a year. That good RBs are being paid 7-9 mil a year and that situational backs are being paid 4-6 mil a year. You cannot base the free agency market on players on their rookie deal. it doesn't make sense.

Absolutely. That's always a plan. Sashi liked that idea a lot.

The RB market is certainly undervalued although it's coming to the crossroads quickly. RBs now, unlike 5 years ago, are fully expected how to run a small route tree and to catch the ball. You can't just come out as Mark Ingram and Trent Richardson anymore. There's a reason why it just became OK to pick a RB in the first round again. The nature of the position had very real but subtle shift to the passing game. While it took players awhile to get used to it, the new crop of RBs will get paid by someone. It's much easier said than done to draft a replacement, with a similar skill set. It's much easier to work with a consistent product instead of an unknown. Not every team will think that they can draft the next Alvin Kamara or Kareem Hunt. At one point those guys will get paid and the market will start to reflect the value of the position in modern offenses.

A drafted RB might not have to be better than Duke Johnson. Maybe Hilliard moves up and is as good, or better. Maybe the role Duke was filling is simply eliminated.

Looking at their roles, last year White ran for 425 yards and 5 TD, and caught 87 passes for 751 yards and 7 TD. Is Duke's value the same as his? I don't know. What say you?

Lewis ran for 517 yards and 1 TD, and caught 59 passes for 400 yards, and a TD.

Duke had 630 total yards, and 4 TD.

I see him as having lesser production than both of your examples, but especially White, who had 12 TD last year. (1 less than Duke has for his entire career receiving and rushing)

Duke is not a consistant TD producer.
he moves the chains.
but he's not one these a "threat to score everytime he touches the ball" kind of player

You're projecting on things you predict will happen. Not the current state of the situation. Currently a team would.....

A. Have to give up a player on their current roster to acquire Duke.

B. Pay his current contract for a situational RB.

Duke Johnson is currently ranked as the highest paid situational RB.

Now I can understand the point that some of the top RB's are still on their rookie contracts. Yet Duke is the highest paid situational RB in the league ahead of other veteran RB's filling his role.

That's not an enviable position for a team in a trade situation. Whether it be to sign a FA RB or use a draft pick on a situational RB would both be better options. Even in the FA market you would get Duke at a similar price and not have to give up a player in return.

So every other possible scenario would be better than a team actually trading for Duke.

But he's paid less than those two... How can he be overpaid compared to people who are making as much as him?

Also, here's a pic of the stats that include attempts and receptions, which are important variables when dealing with gross numbers.


Again, one in the hand is worth two in the bush. Maybe Hilliard plays like an all pro in shorts, but like an UDFA when the pads are on. We really don't know much about him. I saw him throw an interception and catch a pass last year. That's not what a good football player makes.

So are you saying we use him so little that he's being overpaid in comparison to his usage? Because those stats would certainly indicate that.

No he's not.

He's going to be paid 3.1 mil this year. Dion Lewis, James White, Gio Bernard, Theo Riddick, McKinnon, Chris Thompson and Mark Ingram are all going to get paid more than Duke will this year. Next year Dion Lewis and McKinnon will still be ahead of him.

Also, I've never stated that he would or wouldn't be traded. I just said that comparing him to rookie contracts will not find you the market value. For the record, I don't think he'll be traded. He'll cost us money this year to get rid of him, and next year we'll save like 2 mil. That's pretty much nothing compared to guys like Kirksey, Schobert, Vice Grips, JC Tretter and many others will save cap wise. The cost benefit just isn't in his favor.

No, I'm saying that the market doesn't discriminate. Guess what a guy like Dion Lewis, James White and other gadget backup players are worth ~4 mil a season.

I would indeed agree that we've never properly utilized Duke Johnson because Hue Jackson and Mike Pettine are complete idiots.

Then you must add Freddie to the list of "complete idiots" right?

Here's a fact. If a player is not getting touches, his value is less. If he's not being worked into the game plan, he's not a value.

When Duke is getting less than half the touches of one and less than one fourth the touches of the other back you're trying to compare him to, he isn't worth as much to the team he's playing on.

Freddie had eight games with which to call more plays for Duke. He chose not to. So how much does that make him worth to the Browns?

Actually if you look at the splits for the past season, you see Duke Johnson's plays increase the further into Freddie's half season. He actually played more plays than Chubb did the final game of the season. But yeah, Freddie is an idiot for putting out a grade 3 fire and forgetting about Duke Johnson for 3 weeks Also Freddie Kitchens got forced married to an offense that wasn't his. Using his tendencies is short sighted considering a new change in offensive philosophy.

Is Duke overvalued in Cleveland? Probably. Although we don't know his role. Is he overvalued in the NFL? No. He's getting paid exactly as he should be getting paid. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

Hue was the only coach who used Duke a lot. Pet didn't. Haley didn't. And Freddie didn't.

I have posted the stats of Duke and similar backs several times when Hue was in charge of the offense. He had a very high usage rate back then. He didn't under any other coach, especially Haley.

There is so much misinformation distributed on this board.

Hue used Duke more than the other coaches you mentioned. It does not mean he used him a lot.

Duke was given four touches and four targets the last game of the season. Actually four rushing attempts were the most he had the entire time Freddie was our OC. The most rushing attempts he had the entire season was 5. He had a total of eight touches and Chubb had nine. You are incorrect.



He wasn't handcuffed into which plays to call. There were plays in the game plan for duke. It was his choice not to call them more. To further that point, in Freddie's first game calling the plays, Duke had nine targets, the following for weeks they were reduced to 4, 2, 3 and 0 targets.



And my point is two fold. The value of a player to his team is gauged by his usage and contribution. Secondly, nobody in the league thus far has been willing to pony up what you seem to feel he's worth.

Duke Johnson Snap Count:

2015- 51% of snaps (Pettine)
2016- 44% of snaps (Jackson)
2017- 53% of snaps (Jackson)
2018- 42% of snaps (Jackson/Williams)

To say "alot" compared to all coaches Duke's been with isn't necessarily true.

You always brag about how good you are at researching this site. How about you pull up the post[s] where I compared Duke's touches under Hue to similar backs in the league? I mean, you do want the truth, right? You would not want to deceive anyone, right? You're not simply trying to win an argument, right?

I said plays, not touches. Duke played 37 snaps last night and Chubb played 22 snaps.

https://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-cle-6.php




And my point is two fold. The value of a player to his team is gauged by his usage and contribution. Secondly, nobody in the league thus far has been willing to pony up what you seem to feel he's worth. [/quote]

Yes, I agreed with your point that Duke is possibly overvalued on this team.
Your second point doesn't stand up because in football you can't offer cash considerations for players. So no, no team will offer Duke Johnson $4.5 mil a year. And since I don't believe that he'll be traded or cut, no other team will be able to "pony up what I seem to feel he's worth".

However, you do bring up a good point. He's not traded, thus the Browns have not received an offer that they think he's worth. It doesn't seem like the Browns think that he's worth a 6th rounder or Gerald McCoy. Maybe we have bigger plans for him. Interesting point you make.

Deceiving? Lol.

Being on the field is about at honest of a projection you can get to usage and opportunity.

OK....total touches (both rushing and receiving)

2015- 165 (Pettine)
2016- 126 (Jackson)
2017- 156 (Jackson)
2018- 87 (Jackson/Williams)

You claimed Hue was the only coach who used Duke Johnson alot.




No I don't. I say how easy and user friendly it is. Even a caveman can do it.

My comment on Hue using Duke more is not correct. His rookie year seems like his best year in terms of snaps and touches.

I knew you wouldn't look up the post. It's who you are.

Why am I responsible for looking up YOUR post from who knows how long ago simply after commenting on something you incorrectly stated today?

Let's revisit, shall we?

You:



In response, here is me:

My advise to you is to not say something incorrectly, get upset for it, and then try to shift the argument to something completely different.

I mean, getting upset about a post you made awhile ago that someone else didn't look up for you (that has nothing to do with your original point) is a horrible look. But whatever.

I was responding to this quote from CHS:



That was untrue.

I also have compared the amount of touches that Duke received when Hue was in charge of the offense and compared that to similar backs. You won't post it because you don't want the truth to come out.

I really don' care too much about this, but what CHS said was untrue and I corrected it.

I don't care what you were responding to. Whatever it was, you had incorrect information and I provided stats of said incorrect info, which also proved my assumption incorrectly of Hue using him more than anyone else.

Feel free to look up your own posts if you want to discuss Duke in a larger context outside of how the Browns used him. Again....even a caveman can do it.

Alright........I looked up Duke's touches in his career. I was wrong to say that Hue gave him more touches than any other coach. Unlike some others, I do not intend to deceive other posters. So, I will apologize for my mistake.

In 2015 under Pet: Duke had 104 carries [career high] and 61 receptions for a total of 165 touches. That was the most of his career.

In 2016, under Hue: Duke had 73 carries and 53 receptions for a total of 126 touches.

In 2017, under Hue: Duke had 82 carries and 74 receptions [career high] for a total of 156 touches.

In 2018, under Haley and Freddie: Duke had 40 carries and 47 receptions for a total of 87 touches. Both were career lows.

I apologize for the misinformation. I do want to add that I was correct for pointing out CHS' claim that Pet and Hue were idiots because they didn't use him enough.

Also, I know Memphis won't look up the stats that I provided on at least two occasions in regards to Duke's touches compared to similar backs while Hue was in charge of the offense. I compared him to guys like James White, Sproles, and a couple of others.

I would appreciate it if someone would post those stats to help paint a clearer picture of the "truth." I tried looking it up, but apparently I am dumber than a cave man.

I also want to add that it is pretty obvious that Duke's touches declined dramatically under Haley and Freddie last year. I don't know if that makes them idiots or not, but I think it needed to be pointed out.

Once again, I apologize for being wrong.


Oh, here is a link for the stats: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnDu00.htm

No worries man….it doesn't matter. Duke is a dime a dozen player.

If we can't find a viable replacement for the guy, we have a problem.

Hilliard could catch 70 balls if that is what Baker decided to do.

For any that don't, it's because "that's who you are".

Dime a dozen? I wouldn't go that far. He's been very productive, and that's not going by stats, it's going by eyeball test.

He's not an every-down back, but when given the opportunity in the right circumstances, he's been a weapon.

umm you are a better man than me. I'm never wrong.

I think people are analyzing this too much and not looking at the core of it enough. this is my take on it. Duke finds out that the front office talked about him in some trade deals...i am sure there were a lot of names being thrown about. He got butt hurt and asked for a trade. Now he is all over the place crying about wanting to be some place he feels he is wanted. Well, buddy, you didnt get traded. No one offered them what they thought he was worth, so apparently they like him. Theres probably like 5-6 guys on the team that were untouchable in trade talks, that doesnt mean they dont want him.

To me, it seems he is being overly sensitive about it.

No doubt. The fact remains finding viable receiving backs isn't all that hard, thus the dime a dozen label. No doubt he is very good at what he does. Most decent teams have that back who is going to catch nearly everything throw at him and have decent YAC.

I think we place more value on Duke because in past years he was the primary option because we didn't have many others. Something tells me that with Baker, Odell, Jarvis, Calloway, and Higgins, not to mention Njoku, our primary option isn't going to be the back slipping in to the flat.

Things have changed.

I gave you an opportunity to communicate on why you stated what you did. As I said pretending is one thing walk the walk. Why was Baker wrong in what he said and was it something else outside of that one little blurb?

Nah, right away with the insults. Drivel spew...what a phony...but again you got that Brown stuff on your nose...lol

Now do you wish to talk football and take some accountability to your statement about Baker...oh wait you got his T-shirt and I don't well that must make you a bigger fan of his than I am...lol smh

Don't whine when you're given a taste of your own medicine. You start the insults and the cry when you get it in return.

It's actually pretty simple and if you ever actually bothered to read an entire thread you would see that I had spelled out my reasoning prior. But since actually following a thread isn't your cup of tea, I'll spell it out again.

Trade talks and player relations is something to be handled by coaches and the FO. That's a part of their job description. Players, in most cases, do not get involved in commenting about trades or differences concerning their team mates and the FO. There is a difference between what the job of management and players are.

The only time you generally hear players comment is when it's a long, drawn out deal that has become a huge distraction to the team like the Le'Veon Bell episode in Pittsburgh. When a team mate actually holds out and major drama endues. That's not the case here.

I repeated several times that it wasn't a big deal but it's something that shouldn't have been said by Baker. That young people often do and say silly things and get out of their lane. Then..... you came along and are trying to make it a big deal.

Go give somebody else a hard time. Your silly game is getting old. And you weren't talking football to begin with, so save it.

with the league focus on passing....almost every team has RB labeled as a RB but hes really a check down arrow route kind of receiving option.
Duke isnt just that special.
hes a dime a dozen.
he was a heavily used player on historically bad offense or 2.
its not hard to overhype a player thats played
on bad offenses.

Lots of people in the thread are showing that they don't watch football, but even worse that they don't play in PPR leagues.

Eh, The Duke was never one to complain before. I try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it seems the more he talks about it, the harder it is for me to do that.

The guy wants his next payday, and he's not going to get that riding the bench. We suddenly have an unbelievable RB room, pushing him down the pecking order, as well as lots of mouths to feed throughout the offense. The guy knows what means, and knows what's in his best interest as far as that next payday.

You are correct, before this, he never complained,, but it's probably because he never felt the need

I watch football and have been in 2 Keeper PPR leagues, $500 entry, for nearly 10 years. I have kept Duke in one of them for 3-4 years now. He helped a few years ago, but not much last season, a season I won some real money by winning, and not playing the guy very often....mostly as a bye week option. I couldn't keep Phillip Lindsay on the bench to play Duke after about 2-3 weeks.

I will take the arrows,

Duke signed a contract, it is fair market value. A precedent must be set.

I trust JD will not do DJ wrong, no bridges will be burned, but it may be around week 6. Duke was loyal to us, let’s let it breathe, for repórtate

The players respect Duke

You still didn't state what Baker said and what was so wrong about it...other than he is just over his rookie season.

Did it ever occur to you that this is actually HIS TEAM! He is actually a big leader. A veteran like OBJ thinks so why can't a fan. I know you still view him as the kid who grabbed his junk which is a couples years away now. Or of a kid running away from the police with obviously his decision processing impaired.

Outside of the MEDIA crapola he actually, again by his teammates was regarded as one of the best leaders in college football.

It was stated as the main reason he was chosen to be a Brown (via Hue Jackson).

He is a leader of the team and when he speaks on certain subjects it is very important...he is not this wise ass kid you view him as.

If I am wrong please tell me What HE SAID...and Why to you WAS BAD.

Stop with this bs...I know you are but what am I...you did it first. grow up.

If I speak its an automatic insult in your regards. So just put me on ignore please...and thanks in advance.

To add to the above, I found a quote from OBJ in another thread that jives with this very well.

j/c:

I was watching Nate Burrelson talk about the Baker/Duke situation the other day. Nate is a former NFL WR and is now on Good Morning Football and one of the Game Day shows.

He cautioned Baker to "be careful. Calling out teammates regarding management decisions can be a problem. Also, what will Baker do when his contract is up?

There is an unwritten rule in professional sports that you never mess w/another man's money. That's why it was so surprising last year when a couple of Steeler offensive linemen questioned Bell's motives.

I would have no problem w/Baker talking to Duke one-on-one and he may have. However, there was no need to say what he did to the media.

Now, cue the personal attacks.

Baker is the leader of this team and he sees Duke causing trouble by continually asking to be traded, I have no problem with what Baker said, I love Duke but either get on the train or get off ... JMHO

Any rational person would agree with this.

Baker went out of bounds on what he said. He took his role as leader too far. He took his role as "warrior Cleveland Brown who's going to turn around the organization" too far. He took his "you're with us or without us" too far.

As a leader he behaved like anything but in this case. Dukes situation is really none of his business. I'm disappointed in what Baker did.

Anyone defending Baker is simply not being objective.

This topic has been so overblown and proof that news programs should never extend past 30 minutes a day.

Baker Mayfield was asked about Duke Johnson before Duke spoke to the media. He essentially said you're either with us or not. Duke then came out 30 mins later and said he only requested a trade because the Browns were shopping him and said that he wants to be where he's wanted. That happened on Monday and it's been reported that Baker and Duke have been joking around during camp. The story should've been put on hold then.

But nope the media needs stories so they can sell ad space, so they take a microscope to any story that might have a morsel of drama, then they sink their teeth into it. They'll cover anything for air time. So I don't care what former Browns legend and pizza lover Nate Burrelson thinks.

Trust me.. I can joke and play around with you.. but if I know you talking about my money... I didn't forget. Mentally, noted.

Duke's next contract is going to be in 2022. I don't think Baker's one comment from June 3rd of 2019 will have much of an affect on Duke's money.

Thanks. And I don't want to make it bigger than it is. I just read a few recent posts and they were spinning a completely different narrative.

Baker messed up. Not a huge deal. Hopefully a vet or coach talks to him about this and it doesn't happen again.

I do like Baker's passion and hopefully he leads us to the first of many great seasons.

Can someone quote for me exactly what Baker said about Duke's money?

You are trying to change the narrative and start yet another fight by claiming Baker never used the word "money." People can read.

Do you think you could have a normal conversation for once without all the agenda bs?

I'm not trying to change anything. There are a handful of posts commenting on what Baker said about Duke's money. I have no idea what was said about it and asked for a quote on what was said.

Why do you think everyone is out to get you? Just stop already.

No, he never used the word money... the topic at hand was Dukes request to be traded.

Whether Dukes money, or Dukes status with the team, who is Baker to discuss it? As Vers said, its damn near man code to not discuss, especially in a negative light.

I had something typed out, but nope. I'm not playing. Enjoy.

A man's career is about money. Everyone knows that. device is just playing his usual games.

I thought that would be understood in my original comment, but I guess not.

It was understood by all. This is just one of the games he plays to "win."

He's the offensive leader of this team and hopefully the face of our franchise for years to come.

Also, Baker was asked what he thought. It's not like he just tweeted it randomly. This is just drama for the sake of drama at this point.

Baker is not part of management. Players are asked about other player's contracts and status all the time. They almost always respond w/something like "That is not in my job description." Or, "that's between blank and management." Or, "I'm just worried about what I can do to get better." Etc, etc.

I think we would drop this in a New York minute if some of you would stop trying to act like it wasn't wrong for him to say it. Let it go.........and it will die. Like immediately.

Like I said, drama for the sake of drama.

I agree with CHS. This is well overblown. Evidenced by people insinuating this is about money and a contract. This is a MUCH different situation than someone holding out for a better contract. If that were the case I'd agree.

But this is a case where the player is under contract and wants to be traded. Completely different. I don't get the money angle here. He's not even asking for a trade because he wants additional money. He's getting paid and paid quite handsomely according to some on this board. He wants to LEAVE Cleveland.

I don't understand how some aren't seeing this, but i shouldn't be surprised. Many are making this about Baker's use of words and you're "either with us or against us."

I don't care if OBJ, or Jarvis, or Garrett is saying this, it's not a Baker thing. This is just something being twisted into something it isn't. But that's usually the case with these things.

The thing is that no one was making a big deal out of it. I mentioned it once when it first happened. Pit mentioned it and then eotab went psycho on him and Haus tried to make it into something it wasn't. Now you and CHS are upset because some of us had an opinion on it. The same opinion that other NFL players have on such talk.

Like I said before, this will go away in an instant if you stop. I won't bring it up again if you won't, but I am not going to sit here and allow you to manipulate the situation. Your call.

Too funny. You're the one who made an issue out of this. I heard the comments from Baker and I'm not the one who posted about it. But I come here and everyone is discussing Baker talking about Dukes money. So I asked what I missed. You proceed to tell me you made that up, but I'm the one playing games. Lol.

I comment on the situation and you tell me I'm making a big deal about this. Lol. Hysterical. Your disdain for Baker never ceases to amaze me. I should have known this would escalate into something like this.

For the record I never said whether I felt he should or should not have said what he said. But it most certainly is blown out of proportion.

You win, device. I was making a huge deal out of this and was also picking on you and CHS. I'm very sorry.

There's nothing really to win or lose here. If your apology was sincere, I appreciate it.

It wasn't. But, I'm done w/your garbage.

I find myself agreeing with you way more than not. But in this case I don't. It's not about Duke's money. It's about Baker's leadership. What he said was an example of poor leadership, particularly on a matter that doesn't concern him.

You may or may not agree with that, but alot of people are discounting it by saying things like "he can say what he wants, he's the leader of the team" or "it's being blown out of proportion". Those are comments that excuse the behavior.

In a black and white sense, it was poor leadership. Doesn't make Baker a poor leader, bad teammate, or a jerk. But it was poor leadership all the same. Hopefully we don't hear too much stuff like that anymore.

I don't see how this has got twisted to be about Duke's money. He made a comment about wanting to still be traded, and someone asked Baker about it. Baker's response was pretty much, you either want to be here or not.

To me it is consistent with what Freddie said about McCoy choosing Carolina. Either you are all in or not. What I got from Baker's quote, was pretty much in the same light. Duke is stating that he wants to be traded, that, to me says that his heart is not all in. To me, I think that is what Baker was alluding to. I don't see how this became about Baker commenting or referring to Duke's money. Duke has a decent contract, I would expect that if traded that won't change, it also could improve.

IMO, Baker didn't cross any lines, he was stating the reality of the situation. Seeing this whole situation is about a player who feels unwanted, and feels he would be happier elsewhere, I understand Baker's reaction to the question. Remember, he was not the one bringing it up, it was the press.

My personal opinion. I have no problem with what Baker said. If Duke doesn't express his wish to be traded in the media ( I don't recall the Browns announcing to the media that Duke was on the trading block a few months ago)and kept things private then it may have stayed a private matter. Seems I heard Duke telling the media he wanted out before I heard Bakers comments on the matter.

So you take back the apology you owe me and further insult me. Brilliant.

J/C

I'm confused as to why the Duke Johnson saga is being treated as a big deal.

Johnson is talented, but the Browns have upgraded him with the additions of Chubb and Hunt. Johnson is too talented to be a 3rd string option, and he's become further expendable with the apparent rise of Hilliard in to the favour of the coaching staff.

From my perspective, the Browns haven't done anything wrong. They've added two running backs who are more complete talents than Johnson, and thus have looked in to their options regarding a potential trade.

As I briefly glossed over regarding Johnson, he's too talented to be a 3rd string running back. He's on a decent contract, but like most athletes, he is a competitor who wants playing time. I don't blame him for feeling overlooked. I also don't blame him for feeling somewhat betrayed. He was drafted to Cleveland, he re-signed with Cleveland, he's been in Cleveland for coming on five years. I don't blame a guy for feeling disgruntled.

From my perspective, Duke hasn't done anything wrong. He's been open about his feelings and his desire to part ways. I find the honesty refreshing.

So, ultimately, I feel like nobody has done anything wrong. The Browns are right to upgrade when possible and move on when most beneficial to the team. Duke is right to want to play and request a trade.

As for Mayfield, that's who he is, and I'll bet his team mates love him for it. I expect nothing but professionalism from him around Duke.

Overall, I don't see this as a big deal. It happens, and I don't think anyone is handling it inappropriately.

This is my last post on this topic. Baker did cross the line. Sure, he was asked the question by the press. However, countless players are asked similar questions. I gave examples of their generic replies in a previous post. Talking to Duke man-to-man is one thing, but no need to throw him under the bus in the media. Baker does not work for management. I've heard former NFL players and coaches say the same things I am and they have a lot more insight into situations like these than any of us do.

I don't think Baker was commenting on Dukes money at all. He was simply saying he wants people to be on the train. Baker has no control over if Duke gets traded or cut.

I’m with u man ... pretty much in every aspect ....

- We had a chance to improve and we did just like were suppose too and it made Duke the odd man out after week 8 ...

- Duke wants touches and quite frankly I wouldn’t want him if he didn’t and wasn’t bummed and upset that he went to having a much smaller role than when he was #2 on the list ...

Everyone’s staying in their lanes ... who do anything wrong here? ...

I wish Duke would have just kept his mouth shut and didn’t say he wants a trade again .... but its no biggie as pretty much every other player in the NFL would feel that way and everyone knows it ...

I also agree with Vers that Bake shouldn’t have said what he did ... it was wrong IMO ... i also agree with U that its no big deal what so ever .... i’m Sure Bake and Duke talked about it and are well over it .... its just like i feel about OBJ and the voluntary stuff ... he should have been there IMO but its absolutely no big deal and won’t matter in the least come September ...

And IMO were handling this right with Duke ...

He has value to us for at least the first 8 weeks ... that value depends on how much we think of Hilliard ... the more we think of Hilliard reduces the asking price for Duke when the first big injury happens ...

Who did the cowboys get to give Zeke a break ... anyone know?

j/c

I'm beginning to wonder how many people actually heard the questions and the answers and understood the setting and the context of the Q&A.

I'm sorry...but if you actually watched the exchange and came away with Baker "called out a teammate" or even remotely "messed with his $$$" you have an axe to grind that will get ground down to the nub over the next decade or so...because he is a FQB and will be a team captain here for a long time.

His answer was so much better than "no comment" or some flowery BS. He answered the questions very matter-of-fact(ly) and not with animus or spite. He has no issues with Duke.

Also, it remains unclear who was questioned first in the mini-camp time-frame. I initially thought Duke reiterated his stance again...then Baker was asked about it later. But from what I'm reading now, Baker was asked FIRST about Duke's trade demands from earlier this year...then later...the microphone went to Duke to get his take.

It's an 18 second clip...here's a link in case you haven't seen it yet:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/baker...n-or-youre-not/

Since I have now over-dosed on Duke coverage around the interwebs, that has put a new question(s) in my head.

I think Hilliard sticks (whether we keep Duke or not after TC) because we will always wonder if Duke will be gone at the deadline. That is an insurance policy for trading Duke...but maybe at the expense of another insurance policy of having a (bigger) back directly behind Chubb if we only keep (3) RBs. Whether we keep Duke after camp - or not - who would be Chubb's backup? Hunt is the answer...but not until sometime after week 8/9.

So my question starts to become whether Duke and/or Hilliard could handle the load if Chubb went down before Hunt was eligible. I think the answer is 'no'. That leads me to believe that the bigger question of TC will eventually be whether the Browns keep (4) RBs coming out of TC. I think they must keep (4) if Duke is not traded before the season. If Duke is traded before the season, they might roll with (3) RBs but that could be very risky in not having an experienced RB - regardless of skillset - behind Chubb.

So...will that (roster spots) be an additional factor in trading Duke before the season starts? If we start the season with (4) RB's and DON'T/CAN'T trade Duke when Hunt returns, we certainly won't roll with (5) RBs and someone/RB would have to go...maybe even (2) someones.

I'm really just now coming around to this new-and-improved dilemma...adding to my new expectation that Duke gets traded before the season starts more-so due to roster constraints (coupled with trade demands) and less-so due to trade-demands coupled with an eventual Hunt return.

If D'EArnest or Trayone don't emerge from TC as a bigger backup to Chubb, I can see us trading Duke and picking up a bigger vet as insurance against Chubb going down pre-Hunt...and starting the season with Chubb-vet-Hilliard (and a guy(s) on the PS). Hunt's versatility would not make the bigger-vet-RB redundant, but his versatility absolutely makes Duke PLUS Hilliard redundant.

That makes my head hurt a little bit.

I guess I'm somewhere in between on this. I always took it that Baker was frustrated that Duke was requesting the trade instead of wanting to stay here and try to win.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/baker...n-or-youre-not/

"You're either on this train or you're not," Mayfield said, per Cleveland.com's Mary Kay Cabot.

When he was asked if the situation has led to any form of awkwardness, Mayfield shook his head and said, "It's self-inflicted. It is what it is. It's not awkward for anyone else in this building."

He was then asked if he supported Johnson as a teammate. Mayfield responded, "He's gotta do his job. He said he's a professional. I hope he does his job."

Seeing as how Duke is already under contract for 3 more years and will be turning 29 the following year, I don't see what the money talk is.

I'll have to do more research on D'Ernest and Trayone. It didn't occur to me, until you mentioned it, that we might be looking for a temporary, bigger back as a speller for Chubb until Hunt returns.

On hit away, right?

For some reason, I don't think we'll do it. I don't know why. All reports are that Hilliard is doing very well, and we might value a pass catching (outlet) type as a back-up rather than a workhorse. We are going be to passing ALOT (I think).

Another aspect is all of our backs' blocking ability.

Something will shake loose in July/August.

I would be frustrated too if I were the QB and a leader of the team. However, I just want to re-iterate that Baker's comments were all in response to a question. He wasn't just talking about Duke to be talking about Duke. He is simply answering questions.

It's been posted. It's not my fault you don't read the threads. But since that's beyond you.....

“It’s not awkward. It’s self-inflicted. I hope he does his job.”



And he's still a kid. I notice you didn't address that players don't ditch other players or comment about things that are considered between the FO and their team mates unless and until it becomes a long standing major issue like the Le'Veon Bell issue in Pittsburgh eventually became. But that's okay, keep making excuses.



Why are you continuing this stupidity? I like Baker. Every human makes mistakes and says things they had no business saying. I mean you're doing it right now and you're certainly not a kid anymore.



People can read tab. I'm not going to sit here and east your BS. So practice what you preach.

He did say something stupid. It's no big deal. I said it wasn't a big deal to begin with but you just can't help yourself. What part of "It's not a big deal" can't you grasp?

I know you see him as the second coming of Christ, but he's not. He's human just like the rest of us. Humans sometimes make mistakes. Baker makes them too. At some point you're going to have to come to grips with it.

Move on little man.

Everyone who has commented about it in a way "you and tab" don't approve of, has said it's really not that big of a deal. But a couple of you make it out to be just that.

It was just a dumb thing for him to have said. But he's a kid and kids say dumb things sometimes. Hopefully he learns from it and stops commenting about issues between his team mates and the FO.

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm guessing you don't either. You're just getting your dig in.

I don't care that he said what he said. I'm not going to say it was right or wrong. I'll leave that for those of you who are searching for anything negative to pin on this kid.

The ones who are making a big deal about it are all the ones who are saying he shouldn't have said it. I would have never said a word about this except for those who made up some bs about Baker making it about Duke's "money."

I'll await your final words...

Your comprehension is lacking. Nobody said it was a big deal. Even those who view it as something he shouldn't have said have made it clear it really isn't a big deal. But you don't actually care what anyone else said.

You'd rather lie about what they said.

Talk about a Tempest in a Teapot .. Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape about a 3rd - 4th string RB wanting to be traded. I'm sure that every 3rd - 4th string RB on every team in the NFL wants to go somewhere that they think they will get more touches. It is the nature of the beast. I'm pretty sure that if Duke were with Green Bay, and someone asked Rogers if there were any awkwardness about the 3rd string RB wanting to be traded, his reaction would have been similar .. It is what he wants. Not my problem. You are with us or you are not.

It is true.. You are involved with the team .. Get on board. This train is leaving the station. You are paid play. You are expected to play your role and do your best.

End of Story

I wonder if he would blame the situation on his team mate?

Judging by some of the things I've heard from Rogers .. probably. Tom Brady .. Big Ben ... would most likely do the same... after all .. Duke is just a 3rd to 4th string running back trying to force his way out of town.

Entirely too much time and worry is being spent on this situation. In the words of W. C. Fields, "Get away kid. You bother me."

j/c:

--Duke is now the bad guy. And a 4th string RB. Hmmmm...

--Nah, this is not a distraction.

--I wonder what the reactions if OBJ or Landry ever question Baker in the media? LMAO

--I wonder how Baker will handle his first contract negotiation. Will he be on the train, or not?

--I wonder what the reaction would have been if OBJ had made similar comments about Duke?

--I wonder if people will stay it isn't about money if Duke gets cut?

I'm going to be as transparent as possible here. I do NOT care if some of you rip me like you have so many times in the past. I refuse to compromise my ethics due to bullying techniques. I could care less if you like me or not. I'm very secure in who I am and have plenty of people who love and support me for who I am. I don't need the devises, WSU's, Memphis', etc to approve of my messages.

I understand Baker's feelings, but he should not have said it to the media. Period!

I cannot believe how apparent it remains that a few people seem to not know what were the questions asked of Baker. He didn't "speak out" to the media...he answered a question as transparently as possible. I am replying to Vers and Pit directly there.

I guess when you are young, being transparent is a no-no.

If someone disagrees with you - you count that in your mind as a personal attack.

What you said was sound and your opinion...then you got to add the huff and puff chest out crapola...smh

I happen to disagree with you and some imaginary tension that was created by Baker. It simply does not exist. The comfort level in the locker room seems to still exist and there is no tension between Duke and Baker. But look around the Internet I'm sure will find somebody trashing Baker.

Its not about you being "RIGHT" its your opinion. Fine but as long as you don't think its a Fact. Great. I hope you were not ATTACKED by anyone.

I have already acknowledged that he was asked questions. I also provided generic answers to those questions.

JC

Baker can say whatever he wants. He's the QB and one of the leaders of the team. If you wanted cookie-cutter responses and PC answers, you came to the wrong place, everyone here knew that before he ever threw a pass.

Duke also has a right to say what he wants, he wants to be traded, he seems to be disengaged and wants to stay in that state - while seemingly blaming it on the team.

Our coach says if you don't bleed brown and orange - you don't matter. How would y'all categorize Duke right now? Exactly. So you have a coach outspoken about what it will take to be a Brown, on his team, and his QB echoing the sentiment. The same coach and GM just told a hot prospect to walk on to the next interview and make sure he's all in before he comes back.

"Self-inflicted" was about the best two words you can use to describe the situation. Baker said nothing that wasn't 100% true, he wasn't rude about it either. In the same statement he told Duke what he expects from him as a Brown. Did we, or did we not, just watch 15+ years of virtually NO leadership from the position?

Keep me posted, I'll be waiting patiently to hear of "discord" in the locker room over something Baker says. Until then, the fans, blow-hards, and local-media-cartoon-characters can say whatever they want. Won't affect anyone that wants to play hard for this team - that's all that matters.

And Duke, don't think you'll get too far telling this version of a Browns FO what you think they should do. They'll probably give you about two options at this point... show up to camp, do your job, take advantage of your chance to shine during your regular season audition ~OR~ get traded for the 5th rounder everyone promised when your stock was cold. If the latter is the scenario that plays out, they'll pull the trigger when they're good and ready. Your best chance to move on quickly is to "ball-out" when given your precious touches.

If what the coach says will look like it has any ring of truth to it, Duke should have been traded the first time he said he wanted to be traded. He obviously no longer wants to be here and he has been saying that since April 1st. This isn't some new revelation.

He knows he doesn't matter. He knew that when he found out the team had him up on the trading block. If someone were trying to trade you away, would you feel they really still wanted you there?

There's two sides to this story. It's strictly business between Duke and the FO. Claiming it's the business of other players is just silly.

Not how the league works, bud. Not now with the Browns, and hardly ever for someone with Duke's resume. Dorsey buys low and sells high. Had he fielded what he considered to be reasonable offers, Duke would be gone. He's not Kyrie Irving, for crying out loud. Not just going to scream and moan and get his way, he's just diggin' his own grave. Until Dorsey can sell higher than he could on April 1st, or he's done with Duke, he'll play the waiting game. The more Duke cries, the surer that scenario becomes.

You really love to skirt the issue here don't you? Let's try this again, shall we?

If a team had put you up for trade would you feel that team still wanted you? Would you rather be somewhere a team did not want you or somewhere a team did want you?

My point is that Duke's reaction is normal. It's not someone "crying". It's saying I want to be on a team that wants me there and values me.

That's the issue here. Both sides have their position and I can see them both. The teams FO doesn't want to give Duke away just as you said. Duke doesn't want to be a pawn in a chess match being held onto by a team that does not really want him. Both of those views seem reasonable to me.

That's a difference between a player and the FO. It has nothing to do with the other players. They have zero say in a players contract or whether a player is traded or not. It seems the rest of the players have managed to understand this.

I've never really heard of comments being made about someone who "don't matter".

On the flip side, it isn't personal, it's just business, and he is crying.

They DO want him, else they would have cut him already. However, there is the clear & undeniable reality that although they may want him, they may not be able to keep him - they have a crowded room and only so many spots. There are hard decisions to make about who you can keep, and part of that is that when you realize someone may not be able to stick around, you begin to look at what value they can bring you in return.

That is NOT "not wanting him", that is realizing that the boat is full, but you're going to try to find another boat for him, and maybe see if you can get a little something in return in the process.

How is saying he wants to be traded, "crying"? I plainly stated that I see both sides of this. But I'm not about to praise one side and condemn the other.

I would probably just assume that GMs regularly toss around ideas for trades and wouldn't be too worried about it.

I would look at it like a business. GMs try to build the team the best that they know how to and I would go out and do my best to help the team. This means knowing the playbook, practicing hard, playing hard, and being a good teammate. Do all those things and produce on the field, and you'll have a job in this league, on one team or another.

Players ask for trades often, but do not always announce it in the Press. Dorsey did not announce it. The person who announced it, is the person who created the tension.

come week 1 all this,wont really matter.but its alot better having this drama from what we've seen in the past.
you know Josh Gordons issues.
which scrub QB was going to be the starter
Cody Kessler or Brook Osweiler.
Or how Sashi was the right GM to get the Browns to the,playoffs

And that last one is a real laugher.

I think this topic is a non issue.

The Browns wanted to make a deal for Duke the price wasn't high enough and Duke remains.

Duke is ass hurt over it sense he signed a new contract when the Browns were 2-14 followed by 0-16 and still he wanted to be a Brown. I get it he feels he stayed willingly and now they want to trade him. The team signed a better player which is their job to do.

That is truly the end. If your looking for a bad guy here, he doesn't exist.

j/c:

I don't like some of the phrases being thrown around. Duke is butt hurt. Duke is a whiner. Duke is crying.

This is his career. Of course he is upset.

This is why I thought we should have traded him before or during the draft and that was before Baker inappropriately opened his big mouth and dissed Duke in the media.

Now you are skirting the issue.


Duke is the one who went public with demands to be traded....now he is upset because we can't.

Trust me, if Dorsey had gotten a decent offer for the guy, he would be gone.

Pit was one of the guys saying we should trade him this off-season.

I know. So did I. My comment to him was about him saying skirting the issue, then go and do it himself.

The problem we have with Duke is he isn't a TOP back. He is a role type back, and the reality is the value of backs has taken a big hit over the last 3-4-5 years. Unless you are really special, teams don't see a reason to pay big bucks for a player with maybe a 4-5 year average lifespan.

It is what it is.

People complain about Jarvis being overpaid. IMO Duke is overpaid. I guess at the time it seemed like a good idea, but as it turns out it wasn't very smart.

All three of us were proponents of trading him this offseason.

I do think you misinterpreted Pit's comment about the last one being a laugher [sic.] I believe he was talking about the last comment made about Sashi being a good GM or something like that.

Slot WRs and 3rd down backs are a dime a dozen. Certainly no slot WR is worth 15 mil a year if a RB is worth 4 mil a year.

I saw him making a reply to Fate....I didn't see any comment about Sashi.


None the less, I think we have been trying to trade Duke. We just can't find a buyer willing to pay what we feel is worth the insurance to keep the guy.


Dukes displeasure isn't helping.....but then I don't really expect him to cooperate....Duke needs to do what he thinks is right for Duke. I always did what I felt was right for my family and I.

No, he was replying to iluvmystripper.

I stand corrected.

It is his career, and he has every right to be upset.... that doesn't mean he isn't crying or making the bed he has to lay in.

Granted, for the player it far more personal, but he's taking an unpublicised behind-the-curtains business action personally and went public with it and did so with little to no tact. He got emotional over a business decision and took it to the media - that's crying. It's his party and he can cry if he wants to, but it's still tears on his pillow.


As for Baker - I see both sides of the argument here. My first reaction is that he should have said nothing, but the other side of the argument is that he was pointedly asked about it. On the one hand, Baker has every right to speak plainly and openly, but on the other hand nothing he said is wrong. He definitely did not take the high road, though.... then again, maybe he's a little ticked off at Duke for going public and causing unnecessary drama.

The first time I heard that the Browns signed Hunt; I said Duke's days are numbered.

When Dorsey was asked about Duke right after the Hunt signing. He said something along the line of "Duke has not been traded "yet."

Totally understand Duke's position. At the same time to much has been stated to the press. Duke should have gone to Dorsey explained his position and requested a trade.

Dorsey's response should have been. " I understand your position. I will see what can be done. In the meantime you are under contract. I am asking that you handle this as a professional. You are getting payed as one."

The end.

No other comments needed to said by anyone. Baker's response I understand. At the same time he should have said " Duke is on the team. Our goals remain the same. Get better everyday."

Duke is on the team. He has a good deal that pays him well. Just because he does not like what has happened with the signing of Hunt. That is too bad. State you case to the appropriate person. Show up. Play play hard. The time will come when your wish will be granted.

That's a fair take.

The only thing I want to expound on is Baker being asked about it by the media because that point has been brought up several times by various posters.

I think that is a given. Players don't slink around and see a reporter and say...."Psssttttt...... I have some great material for you to put in your paper and on your website." LOL

The media is always asking questions and the players/coaches respond. The most typical response goes along the lines of "That's between Duke and the front office. I'm just out here working as hard as I can to get ready for the season."

Now again, I would have no problem if Baker said those things to Duke's face. Man-to-man! And perhaps he did.

We all have our opinions on this and that is my take.

right now is there a team that Johnson can be traded to and get more snaps.
nobody in the North

maybe the Dolphins
Bills
Cardinals?

Is this response to me?

It's been my position that we should have traded Duke before all of this drama started. I said that from the beginning. My biggest reason for having that position was that I predicted that this situation could very well become a distraction for the team.

Duke’s getting paid what he signed his contract for; play it out and move on. If the team can get some value for him before the trade deadline, I’m sure they will but right now both are contractually connected, so Duke, accept your money and quit whining.

Dallas, Jags, Oakland, Bucs, Packers, Ravens, Broncos, Falcons, Colts, Texans, Rams and Vikings.

No not to you directly. Just following the thread.

I thought he was going to be traded near or on draft day. Part of a package deal.

My guess is Dorsey has been trying to move him. But his job is to get equal value and help the team.

At this point as soon as some guy gets hurt and a team inquires. Duke will be gone.

If Hilliard really beats him out. He may get cut.

If Duke keeps quiet and makes the most of his chances; he may make to the 8 game mark. But he will be gone at some point during of after this season. He for sure will not be on the team next year.

I agree w/all of that. I just don't want people to misinterpret what my message is. I have always been in favor of trading Duke because I felt he could be a distraction. Not because he is a trouble-maker or a "whiner," but because he's been too productive and/or good to be a 3rd stringer.

From the organziation's standpoint, it didn't make sense to trade Duke as he will serve as the #2 RB until Hunt's suspension is up. This is a "go for the playoffs" year, and Duke is talented. Its not like we need cap space. Its smart to keep him and use him in the early part of the season.

From Duke's perspective, he is being devalued in that the Browns have added two guys above him now in the past year. And RBs have shorter career spans and maybe fewer chances at a big payday than most positions in the modern game.

I agree both sides have valid points. It is a shame that it all had to get out to the media though. Oh well, so it goes.

"maybe the Dolphins
Bills
Cardinals?"

Probably not the Cardinals. David Johnson is coming back, and it should be Edmonds or Penny as the back-up.

Further: that's the one game I'm going to this year. I'd prefer not to see Duke (by some horrible twist of fate) gash us in December. Not likely, but you never know.

I've stayed out of this discussion mostly because I don't feel strongly about it. My observation is that with Duke having said he wants to be traded, his trade value has dropped. The league knows he wants out and that the Browns pretty much have to trade him or release him.

Other than that, this is a non-issue for me.

There is no gray area here. It was a lack of leadership or poor leadership, whichever descriptor someone wants to use. Everything about it - his answer, his tone, his body language - was dismissive of Duke and his position. Then he dug in when he had a chance to soften it by going on about Duke doing his job. What a swell teammate.

I cannot stress this enough...there is no gray area here. It's not even a debate. It was poor leadership. Any statement to the contrary is tainted with fandom.

Duke is the one who made his request public. He is the one who did not keep it between him and the Front Office and further showed his displeasure with the team by not showing up for the voluntary workouts. If he wanted any "reconciliation", he would have shown up for workouts and everything would have been a non-issue. Did he do this ?? No. The 3rd/4th string Running Back did not attempt to show that he was willing to be a team player. So .. when the media asked Baker what he thought about of any awkwardness .. He responded with .. any awkwardness is all on Duke Johnson .. he brought this on himself. I agree with Baker. Johnson is under contract. Obligated to show up. Should have kept the trade request between him and management .. so any awkwardness is about him .. the rest of the team is not awkward at all.

I agree with this... This is not a big deal. It's only becoming a big deal because what Baker said is being misinterpreted.

Just curious ...

Do u think its a

Big issue
Medium issue
Small issue
No issue

In the locker room ...

I’m with u ... i think bake said the wrong thing ... i also think it was a non issue the second they talked about it ...

I personally think this is a lot like obj missing ota’s ... its only an issue in the press and places like this ... it didn’t amount to a hill of a beans in a locker room ...

I don't know if it is an issue or not. It could be. Former players and coaches have addressed it and said that Baker was out of line and that he better "be careful."

I've brought this up before, but players do not typically talk about other players contracts and playing time status. They play the game for money and you don't mess around that.

That is why the Steeler offensive linemen caught so much national grief last year when they called out L. Bell for playing games during his holdout during the summer.

There are people on here defending Baker because it's Baker. They will do that no matter what. They are blaming Duke for it all as if that excuses what Baker said. However, life isn't like a Greek tragedy or even most novels and movies. Often, there isn't one clear-cut "hero" and one clear-cut villain. Like so many other situations in "real" life, both parties can be wrong and the wrongness of one's actions doesn't make the other one "right."

Some of us predicted that Duke would do what he did. We were told that it made no sense to trade him. The posts are very easy to find. It wasn't all that long ago. It will be interesting to see what the Browns do moving forward w/Duke.

As far as Baker goes, I'm hoping that Freddie, Dorsey, or a couple of vets sat down w/him and tried to educate him on how to deal with "internal" issues when answering questions from the media.

Should baker have said it...no, is it going to matter 9/8? Even bigger no. I think Baker's intention was mostly to say stop asking me questions about guys that aren't going to be here because they don't want to be here

Baker did not say a single word about Duke's contract or playing time status when he answered questions asked of him as a leader of the team. You keep bringing that up and applying it to Baker as if it applies in this instance.

Judging how Baker's comments completely dovetail with those of Freddie, I'd say they've already sat down and discussed how to respond to questions about Duke...and Baker followed the rallying cry.

Some people on here simply don't like Baker and whiffed on their evaluation of him. They trump up this stuff to make themselves feel better about being so incredibly wrong in their analysis of a player. Can't slam the on-filed talent? No worries...make up crap about his off-field stuff to salve the wound.

"Some of us predicted that Duke would do what he did."

Who DIDN'T predict that Duke would likely want a trade after Hunt was signed? Do you think you made some brilliant prognostication there? What wasn't predicted is that Duke would make his desire so public and force the team's hand to deal with his self-inflicted awkwardness...if such a thing even exists. (Which Baker said does not exist for anyone else on the team...if it exists at all.)

Duke needs to just do his job as a professional. How is that = to a young guy saying something stupid or messing with another man's money? That's EXACTLY what I would expect my FQB to say.

You never fail to make things personal.

I won't reciprocate.

I agree the players don’t mess with other players money 100% ... they are definitely bonded when it comes to that ... i also agree Bake should not have done it and some will defend him no matter what ...

I think its a non-issue and u don’t know if it is one ... the reason I think its a non-issue and u don’t is probably how we interpret (spell checks great when it works ... *L*) ... if he was messing with Duke’s money ...

I don’t believe he was messing with Duke’s money ... the way the questions were asked and his mind set of everything being team team team as to what perspective he was answering those questions from ... i think that was the angle he answered them from ... i think he did it very sloppily and wish he didn’t say it ... I think Bake is in-mature ( i hate when spell check gives me options ..... *L*) .... but i don’t think this was him being in-mature .... i think it was just what i consider a “sloppy” answer ...

U perceive it different than me so I understand why u think it could be an issue ....

Were really not that far apart .... we both agree he shouldn’t have said it were just differ on how big a deal it is in the locker and u aren’t sure if it’s even an issue ...

What dissapointed (and now spell checkers not working and i’m To lazy to go look it up .... i’m Gonna buy a dictionary and learn how to spell the way i was taught ... seriously ... i am ...) me the most on this one is Duke is very good at what he does ... he is far from “just another guy” and now some are saying he’s not very good ...

I’m no fan of Duke making it public (its not like everyone didn’t know butit didn’t help..) ... but it doesn’t make him any worse at his job ... he’s very good at it ...

Its like some don’t understand the value of the limited touches he gets a game ... guys like him and Theo Roddick and James White get the extra yard or two or three that keep the drive alive that leads to TD’s ... they get 20 yards when others would get 10 ... there the cream of that crop IMO ... maybe i over rate him but theres no way he’s not very good at what he does and were lucky to have him and even luckier to have two backs the quality of Chubb/Hunt ....

I also think the fact he’s still here has more to do with his value to us ... i think we got third day offers for him (purely my opinion) and didn’t think it made sense value wise ... he has a role with this team for the first 8 games at least .....

Oh puhleeze. No one on this board "makes it personal" more than you do...not even close. You don't get a free ride when you say THIS:

"There are people on here defending Baker because it's Baker. They will do that no matter what."

You just might get push-back for "making things personal" there. You can 'dish-it-out' but can't take-it.

That is a fair post and don't have any problems w/it. We just disagree a bit. I like that we did so w/out trying to attack one another's character and pretending we know one another's motives.

I get why we disagree on the money aspect. I know that Duke is getting paid well and this isn't about his contract. It's more nuanced than that. Languishing on the bench will hurt Duke's "career." Having Baker call him out in the media might actually lead to him being cut. It also hurts his value w/other teams.

I am not defending Duke here. I agree w/you that he should not have gone public w/his trade requests. I predicted it would happen because I know RBs are proud dudes and we all want the rock. You can't succeed at that position if you don't have that attitude. However, the bottom line is that Duke should not have talked to the media about those requests. He should have kept it "in-house."

It's my contention that both players should have kept it "in-house."

My spell-checker exploded and it wouldn't let me quote anything else you posted ...BUT...the "defend him no matter what" comment is not reasonable. I would say "defend him from things that simply aren't a big deal" would be the theme.

What he has done as pro football player - on and off the field - has been exemplary. Not perfect like you and me...but about as good as could be expected under the circumstances.

Saying things like "defend him no matter what" will only light the fire. Accusations that didn't happen, will throw fuel on the fire. There is a difference between "defending him no matter what" and stating when there is/was nothing to "defend" in the first place.

I've already addressed this, but I think it is a very minor thing. Small issue, part of being human. We all make mistakes.

But it was poor leadership all the same. Nothing will change that. Small issue, big issue, medium issue...that has nothing to do with whether it was poor leadership or not.

A few other points -

1. This has nothing to do with Duke's money.
2. Baker left his first college team because he didn't like the situation. Duke asking to be traded is very analogous to this. So in many ways Baker is a hypocrite.
3. Watch the clip. Baker was very dismissive of Duke. The term self inflicted was a dig. He then doubled down when he had a chance to soften it.
4. Baker wasn't anywhere close to being this dismissive of OBJ when asked about him not being there for OTAs.

I think Baker should be careful. I think he should be more supportive of all of his teammates.

I happen to agree that this was not the making of Dukes...he has carried it on though. Its like one of our He said She said arguments on the board and then the one who responded not created - just keeps going on and on and won't let it go.

Sort of Duke is that guy.

But actually our Leader has kept everyone laughing, smiling and enjoying that they are on the same team together.

Which is why I question those criticizing Baker who simply answered a question and make it out to be a lot more than what it is. It seems by all appearances that Duke is not upset with Baker at all.

jmhObservation.

This is probably accurate.

And the "there are people defending Baker because it's Baker" stuff is just more made up bs. The fact Baker said it should make it less of an issue but there are so many who are looking for something, anything to criticize Baker.

I'd imagine Baker doesn't regret saying what he said and 20 years down the road he won't regret it either. This isn't comparable to the Steelers Bell situation for obvious reasons. I don't think it's a lapse in leadership. I think people are just taking what he said and trying to make it into something it's not. And those who don't care what he said are being considered Baker lovers who think he can do no wrong. The agenda bias is quite strong with this... kinda funny actually. I look forward to the next time Baker "screws up..."

*LOL* ... glad to see others have problems with spell check ..., *L* ...

I wasn’t really referring to this particular topic ... i can see why he’s being defended here ... i don’t agree with u here but i can completely see your side in this case .....

there is a group of posters that definitely do fit in that category .... other than tabber i’m not a huge fan of most of the posters in that group ... tabbers pretty much defended all our players since his 2nd or 3rd post on the board so thats just who he is .... and i respect his opinion and i felt very good about our pick cause tabber loved him so much .... hes a homer but IMO he knows his stuff .... the team finally turned U from a homer to a realist tabber ... woooohooooo ... *L* ....

your borderline but i put up with u anyhow ... *L* ...

I’m still not sure what Duke did wrong here ... and if your one of the ones that said he’s whined ... shame on u for that ... *L* ... i wish he didn’t make it public when he didn't report to OTA’s ... i haven’t seen the clip but from what I’ve read at the mandatory camp at his presser ... the way i take what i read is that he was asked a question and his answer was along the lines of and in this order ... i’m paraphrasing what i read ..

I’ll do my job if i’m here but i’d still rather be somewhere else ....

I have no issue with that answer what so ever ... i’m Not sure what he did wrong here ... when folks say he’s “whining” or taking other shots like that i don’t understand ...

- He’s not throwing a tantrum and saying it every other day ... to me it appears he was answering a question ...

- he said he’s gonna do his job if he’s here ...

So far he said he’d like to be traded when he didn’t report to OTA’s ... wish he didn’t say it ... don’t think its that big of a deal as anyone with a brain knows he wants to be traded .... then he appeared to be responding to a question directly relating to it at his presser that all players have ... and in that response he said he’ll do his job if here ...

THATS IT .... not sure why this is an issue on his end ...

Reading some of the adjectives used to describe his behavior you’d think he put up billboards in C-town and any cities he’d like to go to and is going on all the talk radio shows and demanding a trade .... i was going for an exaggeration as big as theres ... how’d i do? ... *LOL* ...

I would agree completely with this, top to bottom.

I disagree. If it's not orange and brown, it doesn't matter.

Duke obviously isn't orange and brown, so he doesn't matter. It's like Baker was commenting about a player on another team as far as I am concerned.

j/c

What can we expect to get for Duke? I agree with those who say he is JAG. He’s a nice player, but there is nothing special about him. Since he is our JAG he gets overvalued.

I keep thinking back to when Philly got a pro bowl rb in Jordan Howard for a 2020 6th round pick. This was before the 2019 draft. I think we get more value for Duke if we trade him for a player.

The longer we hold onto him, the better chance we have of getting decent value.

I think that a 5th, unfortunately, is probably the high-water mark.
The number of guys like him that can currently be signed for less is what will set his value. If a team can sign a comparable back that is currently out of work for a lot less, they aren't going to trade for Duke. Supply-Demand.

Our FO's only play right now is to hold onto him and hope another team develops a need for a player of Duke's talents. I expect that at this point he will be in Cleveland through all of Training Camp and pre-season.

I think that he definitely makes the 53 simply because Hunt won't take a roster spot once we get to that point.... that gives us through the first 8 or 9 weeks of the season to find a suitor.

Time & Patience is our friend.

Except your looking at life as a one way street. Players have to stay no matter what. Teams can cut or trade players any time. So actually Duke is bound to that contract and the team isn't. In today's society if a player says he wants to be traded, he's whining or crying. If a team says something like "He hasn't been traded yet", they aren't saying anything wrong.

Quite frankly i wouldn’t want Duke here if he didn’t want to be traded ...

He went from being #2 with a role as a 3rd down and change of pace back to having very little to no role after week 8 .... he should want touches and a role .... anyone wanting a reduced role in the prime of their careers isn’t my type of competitor ... i’m sure u agree ...

I said from day 1 IMO what happened with duke depended on what we thought of Hilliard ... we still need a #2 til at least week 8 ... Duke has value to us for that reason alone ... i think he’s pretty good at what he does ... do u? ...

I have no clue what value Dorsey places on him .. none ... all we know at this point is we didn’t get offered what were willing to accept today .... that may change during TC or at week 8 depending on Chubb’s health .... someone could get hurt and offer us more or we may be willing to accept less after TC is over and there were no injuries and its take that or nothing ...

Dukes value to us is directly related to what we actually think of Hilliard ... the more we think of Hilliard the less we should need for Duke ... at least that makes sense to me ... *L* ..

I see your point of view on it causing a problem and understand why u think that ... well, cause it could become one ... *L* ... i just don’t think it will be one and Duke has value to us IMO ...

Exactly, there is no rush.. he's under contract. Someone will go down, when that happens, the team he plays for might feel pressured to over pay for Duke...

In the meantime, we have a pretty darn good back...

Yup.... and for all we know, it could be US that ends up losing a RB and has a need for Duke.

Hunt could do something stupid, again. Hilliard could get hurt in camp, Chubb could get hurt in any one of the first eight games, etc....


He has value here in more ways that just as trade bait.

Again, exactly

OK .... where do u thinks its a big Problem ___________


Where do u think its a medium problem .... ________

Etc etc ...

...

My Question about Duke now, is how committed is he ? I seem to recall, the day Hunt was signed, Duke removed all Browns references from his social media accounts. Is this the actions of a player who is committed to his contract, to his team, or is it the action of someone who is butt hurt and will not care when push comes to shove ? I was in favor of keeping Duke on the team because I thought he could contribute, both before Hunt returns, and after. Now I wonder, maybe Duke's actions are a sign of a bigger problem, a lack of commitment to team success.

Shocked u think that ... u usually have a higher football IQ than that ... *L* ...

BUT ..... EVEN IF HE IS JAG ... for us .. who cares we have the cap space if we’d even save anything if we trade him ... but more importantly .... its about who do we have to TAKE HIS PLACE ... is Hilliard even just “another guy”? ... u don’t think Duke is incrementally better than Hilliard at all ...

Do u think Hilliard’s as good as Duke or do u think for the first 8 weeks there will be even a slight drop off in performance? ... the two important questions there are:

- will there be a drop off is we trade Duke
- if we have confidence in Hilliard what do we have if Chubb or Hilliard go down in the first 8 weeks ...




I agree ... if we can squeeze a 5th out of him I’d think that’d be near miraculous ... and i think ON THIS TEAM TODAY Duke has way more value than a 5th round pick much less a 6th or 7th rounder especially when u consider how much harder it is to make this team now ...

WERE TRYING TO WIN NOW ... and i don’t see how Duke won’t have a role in that for at least 8 weeks ...

Blue Moon for me please sir ...

It would cost us cap space if we traded Duke this year.

I'm looking at it in reality. Those are the rules all play by in the NFL. He signed it, he's stuck with it, own it and play out the contract.

Ty sir ...

YW.

Duke Johnson Contract Details, Salary Cap Breakdowns, Salaries, Bonuses | Spotrac
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/duke-johnson-16801/

And that's fine but I think you also need to look at the players side to make things fair. They do have some recourse as well. And one of those choices is to make it known they no longer wish to be there. Some players simply sit out and don't show up. Each side has options and Duke seems to be using one of his options.

I'm not saying everyone needs to see that in a positive light. That's really not my point here. But on the teams side they have a contract in place that a payer has no choice to opt out of. That's a lot of leverage for NFL teams to have. On the players side they have the option of letting it known they want to be traded or sit out.

In both cases they are nothing more than bargaining chips to use as leverage. I've just never faulted a player for using the leverage at their disposal no more than a blame a team for using theirs.

It's just business and not something fans should get all worked up about or label a player in a negative light for.

He's either a man of his word, or not. He signed it knowing how the NFL works. He has an agent to keep him well informed of his choices. It's time to own it, or take his toys and go home, unpaid.

So then when a team signs a contract they should always be a team of their word? Look, I know you're entrenched in your position. That nothing will cause you to consider both sides. But a player has just as much right to let it be known he wants out of a contract as a team does not to honor one they signed.

Teams pay a lot in signing bonus and guaranteed money to have the right to terminate a deal.

It's within the contract terms the team can trade, not trade/cut, not cut/play or not play them. So the team is living with the agreement they signed.

And Duke Johnson is where he's supposed to be doing what he is supposed to be doing as well. He too is living up to the agreement he signed. The team made it clear he was up for trade and he's made it clear he doesn't want to be here.

As I said above Duke is living up to that contract as well. The only difference is that some people feels he shouldn't use what little leverage he has in this situation.

I don't think any of it is a problem.
I can see why people think aspects of it MIGHT be, but no part of it is a problem.

U do know that the last time Duke mentioned it in response to a question I believe that he said ... and i’m Paraphrasing but the order i’m Putting it in is the way it was written in the two trifles i read ...

I will do my job s one as i’m here but i’d rather be somewhere else ...

Not sure if u knew that or not ... doesn’t sound like we have to worry about Duke not giving it his all ...

As long as he doesn't quit on the team, for however long he's here, that would be great.

That isn't a concern. Duke's a professional; he'll work.

That said, I don't expect him to be here the entire season. We'll find someplace for him.

So u think he has very little to no value here for the first 8 games and he’s gone toot sweet or u think we wait til week 9 when Hunt is eligible? ...

What do u think we’ll get in return? ... player/pick ... if a pick what round u thinking?

Already answered all of that, lol, but I can repeat: I think the best we can hope to get is a 5th rounder, but ultimately his value will be determined by how badly another team needs a player like him and how many guys are on the street and available to be signed for less than what he will cost a team.

I think he has lots of value here especially for the first 8 games while Hunt is out and I think that whether or not he is gone depends upon if we can find a buyer. I think that if a team is buying and is willing to pay an acceptable value, I think he'd be gone this afternoon..... but, I don't expect that to happen at all any earlier than the pre-season. Teams are going to look at their current backs, draft picks, UDFA's and other players first to see if they have what they need. IF - and only IF - they feel like they still need help will anyone come calling, and that just isn't likely to happen in June. End of August is the earliest I would think we might hear anything, but perhaps as late as end of October..... but, that far out there is just WAY TOO MUCH unknown.

I have no clue how much value he has here. To me that depends on where they have him penciled in on the roster. If Hilliard is who this coaching staff sees as the back-up and Duke is third on the roster at RB, I believe his value is greatly diminished. If he is currently the #2 RB, then his value is higher.

I don't honestly feel anyone knows how that current situation stands.

j/c:

This is amusing. When Baker made his comments about Duke, posters said that "Baker was asked a question." When Duke made his comments about being traded, posters did not say he was asked a question. Instead, they said he was "butt hurt," "a whiner," and "crying to the media."

Interesting.

Lol. It's all perspective man. People on the other side of the issue are calling Baker an idiot and act like he's stealing Duke's paycheck. Then they act like Duke is some poor, misguided player, taken advantage of by the team and is worthy of some type of special treatment because he's not happy!

Kind of amusing on both sides, no?

LOL...........I guess I am on the other side and perhaps that is the way I am coming across, but that is not my intent. I only keep it up because people are unwilling to back off. I've said I would drop it a few times if they would. They haven't and thus, neither will I. I didn't get where I got by being intimidated.

For the record, I do think Baker is an idiot. I always have. However, I am not calling him an idiot for this episode. I am not trying to say he is "stealing" Duke's money. I'm saying he should not have thrown his teammate under the bus. I think he should have just talked to Duke in person. In fact, I don't have any problems w/Baker's thoughts. Just in the way he chose to voice them.

I don't mind him using it. He needs to use it in private. Once he started talking to the press, he opened it up for Baker and anyone else to comment.

At any rate, this is a bigger deal on this board then with the team. I doubt players are milling over Dukes and Bakers comments.

He has value, but if Dorsey gets whatever his magic number might be, he gets shipped then.

To answer your question about what we might get...it's hard to speculate on a player for player deal. As for a pick, if we traded now, I am thinking a 6th rounder. If we wait until camp begins and someone gets hurt, who knows? Might be a late 4th at best, early 5th....just depends on the team and where they feel they might finish out the season. If they feel they can actually win some, maybe the 4th. If they think they are still a ways away, the early 5th rounder.

The guy just doesn't have that much trade value and it just isn't him. The evolution of the game and the position has made all but the elite backs expendable parts. It's become a plug and play position.

Not sure my point came across.

I have said many times that Duke is a nice player. I have nothing against him. Yes, I did say he is overpaid, and I believe that, but it doesn’t bother me. But he is a role player. He is not a feature back. When we moved on from Crowell we did not make Duke the feature back. We brought in Hyde. Then drafted Chubb. When we moved on from Hyde we featured Chubb. At some point we will have Hunt. Duke has never been a feature back. He is not a top 32 back. He might not even be top 50 or 60.

We’ve talked about Duke’s touches, no need to go into it. When Hunt is activated then Duke’s role diminishes more. You don’t take away from Chubb in favor of Duke.

I do not know about Hilliard other than he need not throw the gall again.

I think Duke has value to us the first 8 games, then a diminished value after that. As I do not think we can get more than a 7th, unless a team gets desperate, then I just as soon keep him until Hunt is active. Unless someone has a good offer, due to injury or something.

I think it ends up being for a player that is on the outs with his team.

Blue Moon is comin’ up.

You're pretty much spot on on all points. I think a lot depends on what the offensive coaching staff thinks about a player like Duke. I like his skill set and would always like to have a player like Duke who can seamlessly transition between that shifty/3rd down back and slot receiver role.

There's a lot of potential there for creativity and creating mismatches. That said, it seems like not every offensive coordinator feels the same way, or they can't build the offense in such a way to utilize that kind of player, so it kind of depends.

Mayfield comments about Johnson is the beginning of the wheels falling off, and the season has even started yet. Mayfield is a ******* moron, already calling out his teams mates and poking his nose where it doesn't belong. He is no leader, the guy is a joke.

Dule Johnson is the most efficent RB in football from 2015 to 2018:





Duke Johnson is an ELITE receiving and blocking back in this league and most Browns fans are too stupid to see it. He is better than Kareem Hunt and will bring more to this team because he doesn't have the character issues and baggage Hunt has. Bellichik would take Johnson over Hunt 100 out of 100 times and twice on Sunday because Johnson is a guy who will fit and do his damn job better than anyone else without the off field issues and nonsense.

Bringing in Hunt made no sense anyways we should be featuring Chubb, and Johnson is the PERFECT compliment to Chubb, so it was a complete waste to even bring in Hunt. He was only signed because he is a "Dorsey Guy" not because we actually needed him.

Hunt is 10 times the player Duke is. I like Duke - always have - but saying we didn't need to sign Hunt because we have Duke is asinine. . .

Calling this the end of the season .... smh - just more of your hate rhetoric for Baker.

I should add that all of this stuff being out in the public and not strictly behind closed doors diminishes any trade value he has.

Duke Johnson and Cleveland Browns have reached the point of no return: Mary Kay Cabot
Updated Jun 10, 2019
By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio — When your quarterback starts calling you out and your agent’s legendary rapper husband claps back, you’ve reached the point of no return.

That’s exactly where the Browns and Duke Johnson are right now: It’s over and it’s in the best interests of both sides to part ways as soon as possible.

At minicamp last week, Johnson re-iterated his desire to be traded and explained that it’s because the Browns placed him on the trading block a month before he asked to be dealt. He contends the club has done nothing to make him feel wanted since he made his request April 1, and that they lost his loyalty by trying to trade him.


While Johnson spoke at the podium on Tuesday, Mayfield stood on the fringes listening in, at times shaking his head.

When it was his turn to take the podium a few minutes later, he let Johnson have it, saying his situation with the club was “self-inflicted’’ and “obviously he’s going to handle his stuff how he wants, but you’re either on this train or you’re not, it’s moving. You can get out of the way or you can join us. So it is what it is."


Johnson wasn’t available to the media again after that, but his agent’s husband called out Mayfield the next day for sticking his nose in Johnson’s business.

“F--- Baker Mayfield for saying that dumb s--- about Duke Johnson,” tweeted legendary 2 Live Crew rapper Luther Campbell, husband of Johnson’s agent Kristin Campbell. “I guarantee you be the one to divide this locker room up. You are not in Texas at Cracker Barrel.”

“Uncle Luke” Campbell came back at Mayfield again on Twitter on Friday, listing all the elite quarterbacks such as Brett Favre, Joe Montana and Peyton Manning who were traded by their original teams and warning him “don’t ever turn on your teammates for management — you are not exempt.’’


Luther Luke Campbell
✔
@unclelukereal1
Hey @bakermayfield this will be my last tweet to you.
Brett Favre traded
Joe Montana treated.
Peyton Manning traded
Drew Brees traded.
Dan Marino told to go home
Don't ever turn on your teammates for management you are not exempt

386
12:08 PM - Jun 7, 2019
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371 people are talking about this
With Mayfield publicly chastising Johnson and the running back re-iterating his desire to be traded, it’s no longer possible or feasible for the two parties to co-exist, and it doesn’t make sense to keep him around.


Even coach Freddie Kitchens, in a response to a question about Gerald McCoy choosing the Panthers over the Browns, made it clear he doesn’t want players on the roster who aren’t on the train.

“We want people that want to be here,’’ he said on the first day of mandatory minicamp. “We want people that want to be here for the right reasons. If there’s any reservation at all, we don’t want anybody to be here. What we’re about to do, it’s not for everybody.’’

Johnson, the Browns’ third-round pick in 2015, admitted that he attended the full-squad minicamp only because it was mandatory. Had he skipped it like he did the entire voluntary offseason program, he would’ve been fined more than $80,000. When he was out on the field, he worked hard as he always does and promised he won’t be a disgruntled employee.

But there’s just no point in it anymore. It’s a distraction the Browns don’t need, and they should trade Johnson as soon as they can. The only reason they haven’t done so yet is because they haven’t received a high enough offer. The Browns are hoping for more than the sixth- or seventh-round picks running backs garner these days. Ideally, they’re probably holding out for a fourth-round pick or higher, and Johnson is definitely worth that because of his dual-role as a receiver and running back.


But if they can’t get it, they should take the best offer and eliminate this distraction as soon as possible. The Browns have enough on their plate this season with Odell Beckham Jr. adjusting to his new team, a new head coach, new coordinators and a second-year quarterback with great expectations to win the division and take this team to great heights.

Johnson’s value could increase in training camp or preseason if a back goes down, but it’s not even worth the distraction to bring him back. The Browns have too much at stake this season to spend extra time on someone who doesn’t want to be here.

Not only will Kareem Hunt make Johnson expendable when he returns from his suspension against the Bills Nov. 10, young running back Dontrell Hilliard, signed as an undrafted rookie out of Tulane last year, has already begun to demonstrate he can replace Johnson as the third-down back.

With Kitchens and running backs coach Stump Mitchell praising Hilliard over the past few months, it’s more evidence they’re done with Johnson. If they can get Hilliard to believe in himself as much as they do, they’ll have unearthed a gem.

At 25, Johnson still has plenty to offer a team and has a trade-friendly contract with cash payouts over the next three years of $2.3 million, $4.1 million and $5.15 million. Plenty of teams are still interested, including some that have coaches that tutored him in Cleveland.


One thing is abundantly clear about the Browns this season: Mayfield is the undisputed leader of this team, and when you’ve lost him, it’s over.


https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/06...-kay-cabot.html

I wonder if this is the same dude that Memphis and device and the rest of the menZas got the stats from that convinced them VG was overpaid ....

This is exactly why .... STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!!

Maybe Baker should have, but so should have duke then, no?

Once again, your taking a stand on the other side simply because its baker on one of them.

Cart before the horse. If duke would have kept shush about his trade request, etc. Baker would not have been asked about it.

Which is why we couldn't get anything at all for him on the trade market. He's so good and so valuable, nobody wanted to give up anything for him.

Mountains from Mole Hills.

So are ignorant clichés and the excessive use of exclamation points.

Quoted for truth.

Writers love stats. NFL teams love "real players".

I wonder how much Duke's usage as a 3rd down back and slot receiver skews those efficiency stats.

For example, it's hard to pick up a first down when you're getting a handoff on 1st and 10. 3rd and 5 and getting a pass (either out of the backfield or from the slot) and it's a lot more likely.

Always on the attack. I also said this:



That kinda ruins your entire premise, but I'm sure that won't stop you from marching forward w/you BS.

I don't think Baker should have called Duke out in the media, but you are over blowing the situation. I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as you do. I just think he should have been smarter about it.

I am not going to quote the entire article due to its length, but there were plenty of people who said Duke would not become a distraction and that what Baker said was not a distraction.

Are any of you rethinking your prior statements are your feet firmly planted in the sands of denial?

I haven’t read a good majority of this thread ... the last few pages are the first I’ve really paid attention so there’s been a lot posted on here I’m not aware of ... *LOL* ...

I only asked cause everyones talking in general ... i wanted to see what some thought his value was ...

Seems were all pretty much on the same page ...

We’ll know when TC ends if he’s still here that we still didn’t get the value we wanted ... unless he gets traded we’ll never know what his value was to the team ...

Once we get close to week 8 and he gets traded we’ll never know what we valued Duke at during this stage of the “drama” ...

Mary Kay Cabot? Are you kidding?

Your selective approval/disapproval of certain news media personalities is frighteningly connected to your agenda.

Funny that none of the players have said anything about a distraction. It's all a big nothing all around and the ONE guy who should have kept his desires in-house simply did not. Nobody cares except those who wish to bash Baker.

I'm not too concerned about what some washed up rapper thinks about Baker.

Time to move on.

Doesn't matter when Hunt can't stay out of trouble. It will be a miracle if the guy even makes it to week 8. He is a knucklehead, he can't help himself, he is too stupid to get out of his own way...he will be in trouble again soon. count on it.

Johhson was "good enough" as a compliment to Chubb that we didn't need to sign such a distraction like Hunt. That money and focus could have been spent elsewhere. There is a reason no one but Dorsey was calling him. The guy is a problem and one we don't need.

Mayfield is too bought into his own hype. He thinks he has the league whipped, he thinks he is the man. He hasn't proven anything to be saying the stuff he is saying.

He played 7 games a rookie and didn't suck? Congrats...it still doesn't anoint him for anything. He isn't established, he hasn't proven a damn thing.

I think he gets humbled this year. Baker had a lot of factors working in his favor last year. No one knew anything of Kitchens playbook or playcalling, and there was not extensive film on Baker nor time to study such film. this year will be a whole different story...as i said...i think the kid gets humbled big time this year. Teams are actually going to specifically gameplan for him. I think Baker will try and do exactly what he did last year..I don't think he has changed his game one bit...and he is gonna find out real quick you need a lot more than just talent and an arm to be a good NFL QB

Just because Mary Kay wants to create the impression of there being a problem does not mean that there is one.

After Baker said what he said, he and Duke were on the field and working together the rest of that day. There are reports on it, go find them.

What Mary Kay or Tony or any poster on this board says means nothing - if the players themselves demonstrate that there isn't a problem, then there isn't a problem. It really is just that simple.

Stop while your behind. My advice.

Baker didn't suck! Hmmmm. No he didn't. You are correct. Repeat after me .... Baker had one of the best if not THE best rookie seasons for a QB in the history of the NFL.

Could he have handled the Duke situation better when asked, sure. Is it a big deal in the scheme of things ? No. Have the wheels fallen off like u claimed. No. Are you making silly claims based on your dislike of BM. Most definitely.

Heres the narrative:

"Duke should not have talked to the media about those request. He should have kept it "in-house"

"Baker is an idiot"

I actually don't have a problem with either of them going to the media.

Duke more than likely went in house and was shut down, so he is doing what he believes is right for him.

Baker - the LEADER of this football team, is coming out to let others know that if you don't want to be on this team, there is the door.

I don't fault either for their roles in these MOLE HILLS. They are nothing burgers to be honest. But your hate for the kid is clouding your judgement and rather funny to watch.

I'm surprised that certain folks are leaning on attacking my character to "win" an argument. It's never happened before.

Yes. They guy that used "lowest of the low" and "that's who you are" to describe someone and then had to apologize for providing the board wrong information in the debate is now complaining about character attacks.

who also just minutes ago was complaining about people using "internet muscles" in another thread trying to attack them there. . . .

Also, how is me pointing out you hate someone (which you have admitted multiple times on the board in hating baker and calling him an immature idiot), character attacks?

"Woe is me" schticks get old.

And their off again.........

** they're

Thank you for the correction.

I would like to add that it would be nice if we could comment in the Pure Football forum about our opinions w/out having to fear being attacked by multiple posters at a time for having a different opinion.

You disagreed w/me, but did not feel the need to attack my character. You stated your reasons for disagreeing. I think that is the way to disagree. I see no need for the character attacks. It discourages conversation and derails threads.

Once again, please point out "character attack". . . .

I provided proof in your own words of things you have stated on this board, and showed how your are one sided when it comes to Baker. You don't like the fact when people call you out - and then try to make it as an "attack" on you. You do it to everyone that has a difference of opinion with you. See the "mini modding" thread in the feedback forum where Eve slams you for doing so.

j/c

I gave my opinion on the subject. I did not attack anyone. Each one of those guys responded to my posts. I did not go after them. Yet, you act like I started it?

And thanks to the rest of you idly stand by and watch a 5 against 1 throw down that never should have been. I did not say anything that was out of bounds. It's sad that different opinions are not permitted w/out ridicule on this board and then everyone else stands around and says....."glad, it's not me."

What's a Duke Johnson?

This is a Duke.




If I posted a picture of a Johnson I would definitely get banned.

I think Jfan was making more of a global statement about the interactions on this site. I don’t think he’s acting like anyone started it.

I'm not afraid to post a Johnson!

...hence the j/c and not responding to any particular post. Somebody laced that shoe up and wore it, though. lol.

Duke Johnson stats
Career stats
Year Team ATT YDS AVG TD REC YDS AVG TD
2018 Browns 40 201 5.0 0 47 429 9.1 3
2017 Browns 82 348 4.2 4 74 693 9.4 3
2016 Browns 73 358 4.9 1 53 514 9.7 0
2015 Browns 104 379 3.6 0 61 534 8.8 2

Kareem Hunt stats
Career stats
Year Team ATT YDS AVG TD REC YDS AVG TD
2018 Chiefs 181 824 4.6 7 26 378 14.5 7
2017 Chiefs 272 1,327 4.9 8 53 455 8.6 3

I'm likely in the minority here, but just looking at the numbers, and just what I see from Duke in his efforts on the field. I think if Duke was given the opportunities (ie number of carries) that Hunt got, Dukes number would be equal or better than Hunt. Obviously, there is no way to prove that, so its 100% opinion, but Duke is a good back. I know we've used in a 3rd down passing capacity, but his Miami tape SHOWED he can be an every down guy.. we just (IMO) failed to do so and use him as such. I'm sure his height/weight has something to do with that.

My only point in sharing my thoughts here is to those folks who think Duke is just another back. I disagree.

Holy. Could an opinion be more extreme, and ridiculously wrong, when discussing both players? That was dizzyingly ridiculous. I love Baker. Really happy with him in almost every way. He is in no way perfect, I also like that about him. I would have preferred he handled the Duke issue differently. He could have given a different answer to the question that just skirted the issue, no need to discuss it in any depth as the QB on the team. No big deal at all though, certainly not to the extent people seem to be talking about it, especially your over the top rant.

Duke is good, not great. Elite? And we are the stupid people? You can’t be serious.

This whole thing is just offseason nonsense.

Is that why the offers are rolling in since he announced he wants traded?


The whole reason Duke wants traded is because he's not happy with the job he's being asked to do.

Knight is for real, honestly, truly hysterical. Not as in 'funny', more like 'bouncing off the walls upstairs'.