Browns 2019 training camp preview: Analyzing the offensive line
Summer vacation keeps on chugging along for the Browns, but we're spending the weeks ahead of training camp preparing for endless sun rays and seas of brown and orange-clad fans as far as the eye can see through our much-needed sunglasses. Can you feel us wishing good weather into existence in Berea? Us neither (don't jinx it).
While we wait for the players to return and the ball boys to roll out the pigskins, we're previewing training camp by looking at each position. Today's group: offensive linemen.
THE OFFENSIVE LINEMEN Greg Robinson Joel Bitonio JC Tretter
Austin Corbett
Chris Hubbard
Kendall Lamm
Bryan Witzmann
Eric Kush
Kyle Kalis
Brad Seaton
Drew Forbes
Brian Fineanganofo
Ka'John Armstrong
Willie Wright
What we know: Four of the five starters from last year are back, bringing familiarity (an underrated detail) to the group. We know what we'll get out of Bitonio, a 2018 Pro Bowler and one of the league's premier interior linemen. Tretter should be expected to contribute similarly. Hubbard didn't knock anyone's socks off in 2018 but was steady in his first year with the Browns. And Robinson's insertion coincided with the Browns' offensive explosion. No matter his struggle-filled past, that wasn't simply a coincidence. We know this line can largely be counted on, and if Robinson matches last year's play, it could be a top 10 group in the NFL.
What we don't know: There's a big hole to fill at right guard, and we don't know who's going to do it. The general consensus was Corbett's mere presence on the roster as a former 33rd-overall pick would essentially fast-track him to the spot left vacant by the trade that sent Kevin Zeitler to New York, but that hasn't been the case. Corbett has had to battle with a surprise competitor in Kalis and free-agent acquisition Kush, as well as Forbes, a sixth-round rookie. It's very much an open competition heading into camp, so much so that Corbett has also seen reps at center in what could perhaps be a test of how the Browns could use him in the future. A lot of this doesn't matter all that much in the short-term, but finding a starter does matter. Line play is very much based on technique, but also inherently relies on physical activity. We'll get plenty of that when the pads come on in camp and should start to find some clarity along the way.
X-Factor: Tretter. This might be a bit of a surprise -- most would understandably pick Robinson -- but as an intelligent center, Tretter has a lot of responsibility on his shoulders to help whoever wins the right guard job to get acclimated quickly. Expectations are high for this team, meaning the adjustment period must be short for the new starter if the Browns want to get out to a fast start. Tretter's ability to call out protections and also assist his new mate on his right side could go a very long way toward making that acclimation much easier, which would only raise the ceiling for the Browns' offense.
The biggest number: 22. Baker Mayfield was sacked 22 times in his first seven weeks of the 2018 season. Unsurprisingly, the Browns won just two of those games. In his final seven games -- after Cleveland permanently inserted Robinson at left tackle -- he was sacked just three times. This number is the biggest number because keeping Mayfield upright is the line's utmost priority (followed by opening holes for the running backs). If Mayfield is pressured and hit too often, well, we know what will happen. Twenty-two sacks is an unacceptable mark for a seven-game stretch. That cannot happen in 2019.
Says it all: "It is all about versatility. We are trying to find out who has some versatility to them. There is a depth chart of course right now, but at the end of the day, we are trying to prepare all those guys just to compete. Sometimes when you prepare a guy, you have to give him reps, and then when we get back in the fall, we will compete and see who works. ... (Evaluating in pads) is the next step. That is what I was talking about preparing them to compete in training camp because we will have pads on in training camp. From a knowledge standpoint, they need to be prepared to do that so they can put their best foot forward. Then show me what they got. Show us. Show us what they have. You can only do that with pads on." – Freddie Kitchens on the battle for right guard
How many were kept on the initial 53-man roster last year?: 9
For the offensive line of the Browns to prove its stellar performance throughout the second half of the 2018 season wasn’t a fluke, a hole created in the offseason must be adequately filled.
The competition at right guard is wide open heading into training camp, which begins July 25. It’s one of the few legitimate battles for a starting job that will be waged this summer in Berea.
Right guard Kevin Zeitler played all 1,091 snaps for the Browns last season, but he’s gone. In 2018, Zeitler was ProFootballFocus.com’s sixth-ranked guard and had its No. 1 pass-blocking grade at the position, yet General Manager John Dorsey agreed in March to trade him to the New York Giants for defensive end Olivier Vernon.
The move made sense for Dorsey because he had 2018 second-round pick Austin Corbett in mind as Zeitler’s successor while striking the deal with Giants GM Dave Gettleman. Whether Corbett, last year’s 33rd overall selection, capitalizes on his opportunity remains to be seen.
Corbett’s stock as the favorite to replace Zeitler appeared to be extremely high at the time of the trade, but it became obvious in spring practices that Corbett is far from a lock. In organized team activities, Corbett and Kyle Kalis worked at first-team right guard, with Corbett toiling as the No. 2 center at times. In the team’s three-day mandatory minicamp, Corbett, Kalis and Eric Kush each spent a practice as the No. 1 right guard.
Corbett has never started an NFL regular-season game. Kalis started two of his four games with the Indianapolis Colts in 2017. He landed on the Browns’ practice squad last season before appearing in three games with them.
Dorsey bought insurance in the offseason, though, by signing Kush and Bryan Witzmann. Kush has started 12 of his 33 career games, including seven of his 15 last season with the Chicago Bears. Witzmann has started 20 of his career 37 games, including seven of his 10 last season with the Bears. When Dorsey was the GM of the Kansas City Chiefs, he drafted Kush in the fifth round in 2013. Dorsey and the Chiefs claimed Witzmann off waivers from the Dallas Cowboys in 2016.
The importance of the starting five offensive linemen answering the bell can’t be overstated. If the big men were to hold up their end of the bargain, Baker Mayfield’s chances of ascending into the NFL’s upper echelon of quarterbacks in his second season would dramatically increase.
Consider how last season played out.
According to press box totals, the Browns allowed 62 quarterback hits, including 33 sacks, in the first eight games, then surrendered just 11 quarterback hits, including five sacks, in the final eight games.
They went 2-5-1 in the first half of the season and 5-3 in the second half to finish 7-8-1.
The starting quarterback for the first three games, Tyrod Taylor absorbed 13 of those sacks. Mayfield took 25, but 20 of them came in his first 5½ games (remember, he entered regular-season action in Week 3 after Taylor suffered a concussion). The five sacks given up in the last eight games were the fewest in the NFL during that span.
The growth of Mayfield as a rookie and coach Freddie Kitchens becoming offensive coordinator at the season’s midpoint were key factors.
But the change at left tackle mattered as much as anything else.
Desmond Harrison was a project whose innate athletic ability persuaded the coaches to give him the starting nod at left tackle as a raw, undrafted rookie. But Harrison struggled to combat power pass-rush moves, and the offense suffered the consequences.
The Harrison experiment ended after eight games, when an illness forced his removal from the starting lineup. The Browns cut Harrison on June 5 after he failed to report to mandatory minicamp on time. The Arizona Cardinals claimed Harrison off waivers but cut him Wednesday after he had been charged with assaulting a woman in North Carolina.
Veteran Greg Robinson seized control of the starting left tackle job in Week 9 last season and never relinquished the role. He played well enough for Dorsey to sign him in February to a prove-it deal — a one-year, $7 million contract extension.
According to PFF, Robinson allowed one sack and zero quarterback hits last season in 311 pass-blocking snaps. One reason for trepidation, though, is Robinson was one of only two offensive tackles in the NFL who had double-digit penalties despite playing in fewer than 10 games.
Now Robinson is seeking consistency in another contract year. The second overall pick in 2014 failed to live up to his draft status while starting 42 of his 46 games with the Rams. He then registered six starts with the Lions until an ankle injury interfered, leading them to cut him in November 2017. Dorsey scooped him off the scrap heap last summer.
The other returning starters on the offensive line played every snap last season. They are Pro Bowl left guard Joel Bitonio, center JC Tretter and right tackle Chris Hubbard.
Tretter went the distance despite suffering a high-ankle sprain in Week 6 against the Los Angeles Chargers. He is entering the final season of the three-year, $16.75 million contract he signed in 2017 to join the Browns as an unrestricted free agent.
In Hubbard’s first season as a full-time starter, the former Pittsburgh Steelers utility man improved as the schedule unfolded by adjusting his technique while pass blocking. Like Robinson, Hubbard is seeking the level of consistency the Browns want and need from him this year.
The contingency plan at tackle is free-agent pickup Kendall Lamm. He started 24 of the 55 games in which he appeared with the Houston Texans, including 13 of his 15 at right tackle last season.
Although there are some question marks on the offensive line, the pieces are in place for it to flourish under new position coach James Campen, a longtime Green Bay assistant whose history with Dorsey traces back to their Packers playing days.
The Browns finished last season ranked second in PFF’s O-line power rankings and fourth in the website’s pass-blocking efficiency grades. Bitonio ranked fifth among guards and Tretter eighth among centers. Hubbard tied for 50th and Robinson was 63rd among qualifying tackles.
Zeitler is a significant loss. PFF’s preseason offensive line rankings reflect that, placing the Browns 20th among the NFL’s 32 teams. Still, the other four starters are back, and if they can pick up where they left off last season, Mayfield should be well protected.
I'm not quite sure how the author can make the claim Corbett isn't penciled in at RG. First the author says it's because he played both RG and C at OTA's. Then he says they were looking at versatility. I'm not sure how anyone would find versatility if they didn't move some people around.
The two ideas combined simply don't make sense.
Zeitler is gone and they didn't really sign any one else that seriously looks like a starting RG. There's a reason for that.
The offensive line is my biggest concern going into the season at this point. The only two guys we can fully rely on are Bitonio and Tretter. We have:
- An unknown in Corbett (if he actually starts, which I'm guessing he will) but if he doesn't everyone else is essentially an unknown as well.
- A left tackle in Robinson who performed admirably in the second half of the seaon. However, his sample size in the NFL is not consistent with what we saw last year and penalties were a bit of concern.
- Chris Hubbard was, IMO, the weakest link of a line last season but played better ( about average, IMO) later in the season.
- And although Bitonio and Tretter are the strongest pieces on the line going into the season, they are not without concerns from an injury perspective.
Poor line performace will obviously have a negative impact on Baker, Chubb, etc. I don't have the information in front of me or know if it improved as the season wore on for Mayfield but I seem to recall him holding on to the ball longer than desired at times. That, coupled with the line, might be an issue in 2019. I certainly hope Corbett can come in an shine but I think many are underestimating the loss of Zeitler.
I really hope he proves worthy enough to play ... a bit concerning he wasn’t ready yet in OTA’s, but he’s got a big 6 weeks ahead IMO
Who said he wasn't ready in OTA's? I heard one reporter claim that because he was moved around. That reporter claimed he wasn't ready.
Then, in the same article he claimed the coaching staff was looking at how versatile players on the OL were.
Just because the reporter couldn't put 2+2 together enough to understand that to find out how versatile your players are that you need to move them around has nothing to do with Corbett not being ready.
The OL is my biggest concern also ... its tied with LBers but this position is more important IMO ...
I disagree on Robinson though ... he committed like a hold a game average ... thats not good ... its really bad ... analytics says it is anyhow ... no .... ...
JMHO, you stated "nobody looks like a starting guard...please check out the pictures posted on CB physical conditioning test- Colbert's arms look SMALL, he doesn't look physically strong and Kush looks bigger/stronger...pictures 2/23. Tretter looks like he's got some guns.....pads on will tell us who wants it more, but looks leave me wondering about want to of Colbert.....GO Browns!!!
Hope you're right, I could care less who starting right guard is- or any other position, just want them to be effective- finally a team worth screaming for....GO Browns!!!
Oh, I'm not saying he's ready and will be good. I don't feel anyone really actually knows outside of possibly the coaching staff.
But here are a couple of things I do know. Dorsey seems to understand and address filling weaknesses. He moved Zeitler in a trade and made no serious signings along the OL. It seems to me that if he didn't feel he had an answer on the roster at the position, he would have at the very least have signed a journeyman G along the way. He has made some shot in the dark signings but nothing I would see as addressing a hole at the starting RG position.
So to me, Dorsey doing nothing at the RG position tells me something.
Good point Pit .. Dorsey found it necessary to improve the secondary and WR positions ... but left the OL literally alone (actually subtracted from it) ... gotta trust that
Kyle Kalis had a ton of time to think on the long drive and plenty to ponder.
The smart, physical, weight lifting-loving offensive lineman who played at St. Edward High School had signed to the Browns’ practice squad Sept. 3, two days after being waived by Washington following the 2018 preseason. The return home flooded him with memories over the 350-plus miles.
“It was a super surreal feeling,” Kalis told The Chronicle-Telegram.
Before he had been offered scholarships to Ohio State and Michigan — he eventually switched his commitment from Columbus to Ann Arbor — his friends would let their minds wander years ahead to a dream scenario of Kalis playing with the Browns.
Imagination had become fact, with one sobering reality.
“My stepdad passed away a couple years ago, and he was a massive, massive Browns fan. He’s the one that kind of got me into it,” said Kalis, who’s competing for the starting right guard job in training camp. “I just wish he could’ve seen it, because as I was driving here, that’s all I was thinking about was him and my family. They were all calling me, going nuts. So it’s really cool.”
Bruce Schwarz, 60, had a heart attack on Valentine’s Day 2017 as Kalis was preparing to enter the draft.
“No one saw it coming. We thought he was completely healthy,” Kalis said. “It was super tough.”
Kalis’ father, Todd, played right guard in the NFL from 1988-95, appearing in 103 games with the Vikings, Steelers and Bengals. Kalis lived with his dad in Pittsburgh before moving back to Cleveland to live with his mom and Schwarz and attend St. Ed’s.
Schwarz spent his whole life in Northeast Ohio and his family has season tickets to the Browns and Indians. He wasn’t an athlete but had a profound impact on Kalis.
“Work ethic and the value of not losing your head,” said John Carroll coach Rick Finotti, who coached Kalis at St. Ed’s, became close with Schwarz and choked up talking about him. “Bruce was Kyle’s biggest fan. He just wanted to see Kyle succeed. He was fiercely loyal.
“He was so different from anybody else in Kyle’s life. He wasn’t talking about technique, he was talking about life.”
IN THE MIX
Kalis (6-foot-4, 306 pounds) thought he had made Washington’s roster but was summoned and cut. Once he cleared waivers, Browns general manager John Dorsey called and said he wanted him.
Kalis was with the Browns all last season but remained under the radar, especially for a local kid. He was promoted to the 53-man roster Dec. 1 and was active for three games, playing one snap on offense and 10 on special teams.
Kalis, who started two games for the Colts as an undrafted rookie in 2017, used the year in Cleveland to get comfortable within the organization and hopes that propels him to a much larger role this season.
Austin Corbett, the No. 33 pick in 2018, was the favorite to take the right guard spot after Kevin Zeitler was traded to the Giants in March for defensive end Olivier Vernon, but coach Freddie Kitchens reiterated Monday it’s an open competition and no one has seized the job. Kalis continues to join Corbett and veteran Eric Kush in a rotation with the first-team offense that started in the offseason.
“I’m just happy to see that my coaches see something in me,” Kalis said. “That’s a really encouraging sign to see that they trust me enough to put me out there. It’s just a matter of just trying to keep staying consistent and keeping my head in the books and keep coming to work every day and trying to get better at something.”
STRENGTH AND SMARTS
Even though the trade opened a starting spot, Kalis was sad to see Zeitler go. Kalis said they were like-minded and had bonded.
Anyone who’s spent time around Zeitler knows that means one thing.
“I very much enjoy working out,” Kalis said. “It’s definitely one of my hobbies away from football. I take a lot of pride in being fit and being strong and being functional.”
Kalis credits St. Ignatius graduate and former Browns lineman LeCharles Bentley, who runs a training facility in Arizona for linemen, for helping his development. Finotti said Kalis has always been at home surrounded by benches and barbells, remembering the “big redheaded kid” he noticed after getting the job at Ed’s.
“Once he gets in the weight room it’s his haven,” Finotti said. “All the stresses in life and BS, none of it mattered.
“I don’t know how many times Kyle missed a ride home so he could do extra sets. I’d drive him home to Westlake, or bring him home.”
That required a run to the grocery store for extra food and milk.
“He’s part of the family. Like a son,” Finotti said.
The work in the weight room transfers to the field.
“He’s a real strong guy, real strong, powerful punch and has all the tools,” center JC Tretter said last week.
“He’s an aggressive kid, plays with his feet in the ground and he brings energy,” new line coach James Campen said.
“Nasty, nasty player. Real physical player,” Finotti said. “He doesn’t look to block people, he looks to dominate people.”
On the line, brawn is useless without brains. Kalis has both.
“Works hard, studies, learns, he does everything the right way,” Tretter said.
“I kinda view myself as a little bit like a sponge,” Kalis said. “I have a good awareness of what’s happening on the field and being able to make adjustments. I feel like deep down I’m just a ballplayer.”
ROOTS RUN DEEP
He likely gets that from his dad. Todd spent the first five seasons of his career with the Vikings, starting 45 games. He started 11 games each in single seasons with the Steelers and Bengals.
Finotti said Todd didn’t pressure Kalis to get a scholarship or try for the NFL but was always there to help.
“Preparation, guidance, motivation,” Finotti said. “He was a calming force in that regard.
“Kyle loves the game and doesn’t feel the pressure. He doesn’t look at it like a job. I attribute that to his dad.”
Kalis’ future with the Browns is uncertain, so he and fiancé Alyssa are renting a house on the West Side. It has a fenced-in yard perfect for his pair of chocolate Labradors, Cooper and Tucker, and is close to Whiskey Island for fishing.
Finotti knows how much it would mean to Kalis, and those closest to him, if he could settle in and succeed with the Browns.
“It goes back to Kyle being such a loyal friend and a great guy,” he said. “You walk into our house, my wife picked up a big Cleveland Browns surfboard and it’s hanging in the garage next to the TV. My son has a Browns chair.
Offensive Lineman Greg Robinson addresses the media following the Brown's July 31st, 2019 training camp practice. He discusses the challenges of facing Myles Garrett every day in practice does for his preparation and how his confidence has grown since last year.
Browns OT Greg Robinson making the most out of DE Myles Garrett’s elite skillset
Greg Robinson would be the first to admit he hasn’t appeared to be the strongest offensive lineman six days into Browns training camp.
The 2014 second-overall draft pick is hoping to solidify his role as the starting left tackle after he played the final eight games with the Browns a season ago. Training camp this season has likely been one of the toughest of Robinson’s five-year career, but he deserves some slack.
That’s because Robinson has mostly lined up against defensive end Myles Garrett, who’s arguably been the best Browns player thus far. Garrett’s elite acceleration and speedy instincts have been quite a challenge for Robinson, and they likely will be for every offensive lineman unfortunate enough to play opposite Garrett all season.
Even though Garrett — who led the Browns with 13.5 sacks in 2018 — has forced his way around Robinson more often than he’d like, Robinson wouldn’t want to practice against anyone else.
“(Garrett) has that initial snap off the ball, and if your technique is bad or if you take a false step, you basically lost,” Robinson said. “I couldn't ask for a better situation. I feel like it's only going to prepare me for a real game and live situations. I don't feel like I can get that work in anywhere else."
Robinson took over starting left tackle duties for the Browns in Week 9 of 2018 after he dealt with inconsistencies in previous stints with the Los Angeles Rams and Detroit Lions. He held the starting role for the rest of the season, and general manager John Dorsey rewarded Robinson’s strong finish with a one-year deal.
At 26 years old, Robinson has ample time to prove his best football is yet to come. He wants to make the most of the short-term deal and cash in for a larger contract next season.
Robinson thinks practicing against Garrett will help him reach that. It’s better for Robinson to make a wrong step in practice and allow Garrett into the backfield when he’s not allowed to tackle quarterback Baker Mayfield.
Mistakes like those in real games won’t help the Browns improve from their 38 sacks allowed last season. Robinson normally knows immediately from the snap when Garrett will move around him, but when the raw talent of Garrett mystifies Robinson into a broken play, he’ll always check back with Garrett and see where he slipped up.
"If he beats me, nine times out of 10 I know what I did wrong before he tells me,” Robinson said. “I can honestly take a step, and I know when I'm beat, but we communicate a lot, and I feel like that's something that will make us better."
Time will tell if Robinson’s daily battles with Garrett will unleash the talent scouts raved about when he led Auburn’s offensive line six years ago. The Browns think it will, and head coach Freddie Kitchens won’t fault Robinson too often for allowing a Pro Bowl player to reach the backfield as frequently as Garrett.
That’s actually Kitchens’ expectations for Garrett. It’s not a knock on Robinson at all.
“I think Myles is a pretty good player, and I think Greg is a pretty good player,” Kitchens said. “I think that is a good competition. When Myles is in the backfield, I would say he is supposed to be there, and that is where I want him most of the game.”
After an up-and-down NFL career, Robinson just wants to put his best foot forward. Garrett is helping him do that — both on the field and from a mental standpoint.
That’s why Robinson feels like Cleveland is the perfect spot. He can’t control Garrett’s talent, but he can control how it will make him better.
“You got to be on your 'A' game every day," Robinson said. “I feel like this is the best work I can get.”
BEREA, Ohio — Drew Forbes calls his wife Emily once a day from Browns training camp, usually at night when practice and meetings are done. They usually catch up on the day’s practice or discuss Luna, their Australian Shepherd mix—regular couple discussions. But in the last week, their daily phone calls have become dress rehearsals.
“Arf arf,” Drew barks into his phone. “X gon give it to ya F--- wait for you to get it on your own X gon deliver to ya”
One day during training camp the rookie offensive lineman will be called on to rap in front of the entire team. It’s a beloved Browns rookie ritual, and Drew, the sleeper prospect who we profiled in our “Prospect X” series last spring, was assigned the song “X Gon’ Give It to Ya” by DMX. The nickname has stuck.
“I am not going to get myself in trouble with the O-line room, but X lives on in the O-line room,” Browns offensive line coach James Campen says, cryptically.
After an extremely warm practice Monday morning, Drew elaborated on Campen’s ambiguity: The O-line room assigned Forbes a series of X-themed PowerPoint presentations to present, like a fourth grader delivering a book report. He chose five topics to educate his O-line teammates on:
Xzibit (the rapper) Generation X D-Generation X (the pro wrestling group) Malcolm X X-Men (specifically, Charles Xavier, the founder of the X-Men)
Drew applied the same intense focus he has for football to his X-themed presentations. “He was overly prepared,” Campen says.
“The longest presentation was 10 slides,” says Drew. “A lot of Wikipedia and Googling.”
Because he doesn’t know which day the veterans will call on him to perform the DMX rap, Drew calls Emily each night to help him memorize his lines and get the sporadic rhythm and timing down. The perfectionist in Drew never rests, even off the field.
So far in Browns camp, Forbes has taken reps with the second, third and fourth string, at left tackle and right guard. Campen says it’s too early to settle on a specific position for Forbes, and they want him to be versatile so he can backup multiple spots on the line. The Browns have a position battle for starting right guard, but Forbes isn’t in the mix for a starting role as of now. At left tackle, Forbes’s college position and his dream role in the NFL, the Browns hope Greg Robinson’s serviceable play down the stretch in 2018 was not a fluke. The former No. 2 overall pick, discarded by the Rams and the Lions previously, had a rough day against Myles Garrett in Monday’s practice.
For Forbes, the most surprising thing about the NFL is how much fun this Browns team has while putting in work. “I hear a lot of people talking about camp from other teams and how much of a drag it is,” Forbes says. “But I'm loving this. I thought it was going to be—I don't want to say hell, but I am really having fun getting to play football.”
And for the record, Prospect X is no longer starstruck by Baker Mayfield. “It’s normal now,” he says. “It’s just work.”
BEREA, Ohio -- Thursday's training camp session gave Browns fans a glimpse at just how special this offense can be. When Baker Mayfield is connecting with Jarvis Landry, Rashard Higgins, and Odell Beckham Jr., the group has a feeling of invincibility.
You can see the look the players get on their faces. The body language changes, the atmosphere lifts, and the entire offense is raised.
Mayfield hit Beckham on a dig route in an 11-on-11 session, and the group looked unstoppable. It has that vibe. Then, on the next snap, right guard Austin Corbett let his man cross his face and the pressure forced Mayfield into a poor throw.
The reminder was there once again.
No matter how much skill position talent the Browns have, they will be relying heavily on this offensive line to give Mayfield the time to throw to open receivers who are some of the NFL's best weapons.
NO CLEAR LEADER The right guard rotation has been taking place since minicamp. Austin Corbett works with the first team one day, Eric Kush the next, then Kyle Kalis on the third day.
The team wants one of the linemen to stand out and earn that job. That has yet to be the case.
Kitchens was asked about the status of the right guard job earlier in the week, specifically if he noticed anyone gaining an advantage. "No. There is not.” He then continued.
“I wish one was, but I want them all three to compete. They have all had some good plays. They have all had some bad plays. Under no circumstances are we ready to name the starting guard.”
WHO WINS THE JOB The outlook remains uncertain. All three players have shown quality reps, but with too many mistakes.
Joel Bitonio says all three have the ability.
"They just want the best guy there, and they feel like there are a few guys who have the ability to start at that position," he said, "so they are going to try and work it and put the best guy there and make them earn it."
Opportunity is there every day. The issue is the lack of consistency.
Playing offensive line in the NFL is about consistency. The more you can avoid mistakes and allow your running backs and quarterback to do their jobs, the better you are. The Browns need the one player who can avoid those mistakes.
SCOUTING REPORTS Although it's a challenge to get a feel for the three players from the sideline, watching drill work and 1-on-1s can allow for some insights into what the player can be, and where they struggle or thrive.
Corbett plays with a strong base and athleticism, but he lacks the consistency in his punch and ability to steer opposing linemen -- an essential skill whether it's helping form the pocket, or handle angles in the run game.
Kush seems to have the ability, but his mental makeup comes with question marks. Several times during camp Kitchens has had to yell at him about mental mistakes, including penalties and missed assignments. Those things linger in a coach's mind.
Kalis is likely the strongest of the three players but his balance is an issue. Too often he lunges or takes the incorrect angle and it forces his feet to catch up before they should. When defenders have been able to make him work off his strong base, he doesn't have the lateral agility to get where he needs to go.
FINAL THOUGHTS In all likelihood Corbett remains the front-runner. He has been the most consistent of three, and his position with the franchise has the most invested.
Veterans like Bitonio know there is still plenty of time, however.
"Greg (Robinson) kind of took it over and proved that in eight games last year that he could be a left tackle when he is motivated, thinking and doing the right things," Bitonio said. "That is kind of where we are at in that situation.”
Mayfield echoed the same sentiment.
"Greg (Robinson) did not play until whatever week it was last year," said the QB. "We just want to have consistency, being on the same page. ... Whatever guy is going to be the most physical and get his job done and be the best fit for us up front is going to win that job. We have a great offensive line coach (James Campen), and we are grinding right now. We are trusting that competition will work itself out.”
This situation will be solved in the preseason. The winner will get in-game opportunities with varying schemes and challenges.
The Browns made it work with a questionable offensive line in 2018. They will be looking to do the same again at right guard. Time is on their side, but the pressure is still there.
Kitchens and James Campen know they have to get this decision right.
I liked that article. It had some good information about the strengths and weaknesses of each guy. I prefer that to the BS so many other journalists put out there. Who wrote it?
I love Dorsey, but I am beginning to wonder if trading Zeitler for Vernon was a good move. I have to say that I really don't know that much about Vernon, though.
I love Dorsey, but I am beginning to wonder if trading Zeitler for Vernon was a good move. I have to say that I really don't know that much about Vernon, though.
I am second guessing as well. There was a ton of value on the edge this off-season. Players like Ziggy Ansah, Cam Wake, Michael Bennett, Robert Quinn, Clay Matthews, and Justin Houston all signed for less than we are paying Vernon this year.
I liked that article. It had some good information about the strengths and weaknesses of each guy. I prefer that to the BS so many other journalists put out there. Who wrote it?
I love Dorsey, but I am beginning to wonder if trading Zeitler for Vernon was a good move. I have to say that I really don't know that much about Vernon, though.
They kind of rolled it in to one deal, but I understand.
I know the majority thinking in LT is the premium OL position, and it was in the day of the lead footed QB. Well, those guys are about done.
To me, setting a strong front 3 is just as important, if not more than protecting the edge. If you can stonewall the interior, the QB can step up a few feet and that puts the OT's back in perfect position and wrecks the DE's angle..
Why can't we voice our opinion. You voice you opinion when you talk about how great we are. What's the difference? Are we only allowed to post positive posts on here?
The two most important positions on the line are LT and RG and we are uncertain on both. You could throw an uncertainty at RT into the mix as well.
I am hoping that we get surprising growth from someone or Dorsey pulls something out of his hat before game 1, but o-line is probably our biggest weakness in my opinion.
Before judging about a trade seems to me we need to see them play?
bone...I agree...we have to see how the players involved in the various personnel moves actually play in a real football games before we judge the players or the management responsible for making a trade.
I'm not about to begin second guessing Dorsey and the trades he made based on the first week of practices in pads.
I'm sorry if my position might offend some...but it just seems to be the right thing to do.
I doubt it offends anyone. The problem is that it seems some take offense if we voice an alternative opinion. As I said before, there are plenty of posts saying how great we will be this year. Y'all aren't waiting to see how they play in those discussions....LOL....
What do u expect bro .... of course were optimistic and expect are new additions who were all very good - great players prior to this year to perform well .... we’ve been BRUTAL for years and now we have REALISTIC OPTIMISM as opposed to the pie in the sky not based in reality optimism we’ve had every other TC/Pre-season ... actually not we, pretty much he rest of rthe board not named Pitt and a few others ... mac may be in that group also ... its a REAL SMALL GROUP that’s for sure ...
U and I have been ripped on this board at least every season I’ve been around since u joined the board ... and u joined very early on ... last year was the first time we split .. and ironically i got ripped for that cause everyone had been burned so much in the past they couldn’t see that our talent was severely upgraded .... i thought i was in the twilight zone at times last TC season ... *L* ...
i remember last TC season joking that i was incredibly optimistic and i thought the most games we’d win was 6 ... i predicted not even 500 and was optimistic and looking forward to the season .. HOW SAD IS THAT ... *L* ..
We need to wait and see how Corbett is ... we need to wait and see if Bake improves or regress (with the skill position players we have that would be almost hard to do) ... but i’m not sure why we have to wait to see OBJ or Vernon in a game to know there gonna perform well and do their jobs at a high level ... why would they not?
I understand about being concerned about the OL ... i know i am ... i understand injuries happen ... but bro ... if were not gonna be optimistic now ... when the heck will we ever be able to be optimistic ... ... and u may or may not remember this as i haven’t said in many years ... when i got railed on from basically day 1 on this board for my take on the Don and being “pessimistic”every year i’d Tell people i’m One of the most optimistic people you’ll ever meet they just need to give me a reason to be optimistic ... well that days here bro ... WOOOOOHOOOOO ...
DISCLAIMER for the menZas ... VERS IS OPTIMISTIC ... i believe he’s just being cautious and playing “devil’s advocate” sort a speak ... just my opinion, i do not want to speak for Vers ... i’m sure he will correct me if I’m wrong ... *L* ... and then there’s me who has decided to take the governor off and just go HOG WILD WITH OPTIMISM ... if things don’t work out at least i’ll have enjoyed this part of the season ...
The two most important positions on the line are LT and RG and we are uncertain on both. You could throw an uncertainty at RT into the mix as well.
I am hoping that we get surprising growth from someone or Dorsey pulls something out of his hat before game 1, but o-line is probably our biggest weakness in my opinion.
What makes you say RG is the 2nd most important? I'd say C because of line calls, snaps, and most of the time the fastest route to the QB.
I was at Camp yesterday and must admit I was in awe and worried at how often the Defense were in our backfield. On both rotations with 1st and 2nds there were several plays where the runner had no chance or the QBs had to get rid of it or would have been sacked.
Now,I see that as a potential positive as it will help our Oline improve as there will be few Defenses as stacked and as lethal across the board as ours. But, it also proves we have work to do before Sept.8.
I am going to today's O&B scrimmage as it will/should flow more like a game it should give me more insight into how our line (on both sides) stack up and perform.
Actually its LT and then RT as Edge rushers are coming from both sides now a days.
Then its Center and then LG and Last but not least is RG.
Most of this is predicated on the talent needed to play these positions on a high level. The skill set needed and the rarity of that skill set.
Diam...so only you special negative posters are real and carry any weight.
I've take a lot of Homer crap the last 5 years so don't pretend that you negative REALISTIC Posters take all the heat...lol
As for being realistic.
I immediately stated negative things about Corbett when we draft him. I don't like us drafting an OL at the top of the 2nd round and do not have a specific position in mind for them I don't get it. You draft somebody that high I would think that you know exactly where he will play and the impact he will have. We drafted him before Bitonio, Schwartz, We knew exactly where these guys were going to be playing.
Of course when I did I pretty much was told to Shut up by posters and wait and see.
I am just as real as anyone. But for the most part as fans we need HOPE...we need to hear some REAL FOOTBALL Logic on why if all the planets align we could WIN I gave those possible scenarios never really coming to fruition. Obviously without a Franchise QB you have NO HOPE! But I say you all in the past took the easy way out and now you paint it that you were going against the grain and toughed it out...lol Sorry I remember it differently. It took guts to state we were going to win.
Actually its LT and then RT as Edge rushers are coming from both sides now a days.
Then its Center and then LG and Last but not least is RG.
Aren’t you literally saying that RG is the least important?
Not at all...I will spell it out for you as I know a message board can be difficult.
Each and EVERY OLman is just as important as the other. Its a unit.
What I did was break it down to "SKILL SET" needed to play that specific position.
RG because of the skill set needed to play it. We have MORE POSSIBLE CANDIDATES to man that position. Its all about the "RARITY" of the skill sets needed to be above average.
If the rarity is lower than others you have MORE CANDIDATES to choose from.
Hopefully I explained it so that you understand what I'm saying.
Since the Browns returned to the league I have always been optimistic. That is because I wanted to see growth. However, at the same time I was realistic about expectations.
Under Anderson that one year I started to get excited until the Cinci game. It was then I knew it was false hope.
Since that time, again only my perspective, it has been about the quarterback. When we started the season with Cody Kessler I was at a all time low. One of the worst teams I have ever seen in football.
It was not until the Jets game when Baker took over and won the game that a spark ignited. I felt hope again. Knowing as all of do that without a quarterback it is hopeless.
Since last season ended and the announcement of Freddie as head coach and then the Beckham deal that is when for me I went to a new and unexpected place.
I started thinking wow! We are for real.
The other deals this year Richardson, Vernon, and drafting Greedy. I sat up and said "I have got to see this." This Greedy kid when I started watching him. I got excited.
As camp opened and each day ended. I have listened to the coordinators pressers. Listened to Freddie. Listened to the players. Tried to get a feel for the camp. What is Freddie doing? What kind of camp is it? I wanted to hear it was tough. Wanted to see if I could tell from the players if they were all in. Wanted to try and glean if chemistry was building.
So far, everything that I have been able to see has been encouraging.
Back to being realistic. I know the league is tough. I understand the heightened expectations. I have a sense of history. I have looked at the North rosters. I know what has changed from a year ago.
Yes. I am optimistic. I do believe we have a good team. I feel strongly that we can win our division.
After that I have no expectations. First the 16 game season. For now it becomes the Titans. Start strong. Win the first game.
After that it is week by week. Lots can happen. Many unknowns.
As I sit here today I am thrilled to feel the way I do. It is so refreshing to enter a season with high expectations that you truly believe.
I accept that I could be dead wrong. But I am a happy man today.
The two most important positions on the line are LT and RG and we are uncertain on both. You could throw an uncertainty at RT into the mix as well.
I am hoping that we get surprising growth from someone or Dorsey pulls something out of his hat before game 1, but o-line is probably our biggest weakness in my opinion.
What makes you say RG is the 2nd most important? I'd say C because of line calls, snaps, and most of the time the fastest route to the QB.
RG's never get any help. They may give help from time to time, but these guys are usually on an island. Also unless you have a left handed QB, the tackle next to you is not as good as the tackle next to the LG. I've played both tackle spots and both guard spots and to me, the order of difficulty is LT, RG, RT, LG.
Center is a wild card because it really does depend on the offense. Some centers are asked to be nothing more than be a fireplug in the middle of the line and some centers are asked to do darn near everything. Speed usually never lines up over Center though. It may be in the gap in which case you either have an easier block or you have help. Usually it's a big ole bull rusher lining up over Center. Just don't get stood up. Stay low and you can impede even the strongest rusher long enough for the QB to get the ball off or get on the run.
What do u expect bro .... of course were optimistic
I don't mind people being optimistic. I'm just saying that it doesn't strike me as fair to say that we have to wait to speak a concern before we play a game and also proclaim our greatness before we play a game. LOL.....I am making sense, right?
Quote:
. VERS IS OPTIMISTIC ... i believe he’s just being cautious and playing “devil’s advocate” sort a speak
I am optimistic. More so than at any other time since our rebirth. I was optimistic after the 2007 season, but probably not as much as I am this time.
And I think debate and discussion is healthy. It helps us learn more if we examine things from all sides. Everyone agreeing on every topic is boring and not very intelligent.
I liked the Zeitler/Vernon trade at first because Edge rushers are more valuable than RGs. But, Zeitler was ranked something like first, second, or third in the entire league at guard and Vernon really hasn't been that productive since the one year in Miami. Plus, I think he's been hurt a lot.
I love John Dorsey. Hiring him was the best move this franchise has made since the rebirth. I'm not criticizing him. I'm just saying I am not so sure about that trade, especially because it seems like all three RG candidates have some issues. And I don't see why talking about it now is such a no-no.
I doubt it offends anyone. The problem is that it seems some take offense if we voice an alternative opinion.
vers...your opinion is based on what?
In my case, I'm willing to withhold my opinion until I have "something" to base an opinion on. I'm not about to judge management's decision to make the Zeitler for Vernon trade based on an "uneducated guess". I have to see how the players involved perform on the field before I can give an opinion rooted in "reality".
So tell us, what are you basing your opinion on?
Quote:
As I said before, there are plenty of posts saying how great we will be this year. Y'all aren't waiting to see how they play in those discussions....LOL....
vers...as for the claim you made above...find me one post where I stated how great the Browns would be this year.
Before I start making predictions for the W/L record of the 2019 Browns..I have to see them perform on the field. Even after seeing them perform, I doubt I start making baseless predictions.
I prefer to take a "show me" approach based on team performance.
mac, I am not going to fight w/you. I don't care that you disapprove of my opinion and I sure as hell did not say that you were saying the Browns are great. Have a nice day.
I think in todays NFL with mobile QB's, the interior 3 are more important than the tackles.
Maybe 12 years ago I told you the QB position was going to change. It has. Now the OL position is going to change.
If the front 3 can form a wall, a nimble QB only has to step up a foot or two to put his OT back in to good position and totally wreck the DE's rush angle.
Give it another 5-10 years and Centers and Guards will be the top O-line picks in the draft. Todays QBs can get outside the DE's if need be.
Todays QBs aren't all that worried about the edge rush. It's the rush up the middle that wrecks their day.
People can disagree all they want. I was right about the QB position 12 years ago, and now that that is in full swing, the O lines will have to change as well.
Up the middle is the fastest way to the QB. Up the middle O-line strength will become the premium.
You have to forget the "old" mold. It doesn't fit in todays game.
I have the same feelings Vers. I am cautiously optimistic. I like Dorsey but I am unsure about that particular trade. If it took that trade to get the OBJ trade done though, I'm all for it.
I'm not into crowning this team before they hit the football field either. I do see question marks. It still all has to come together. I am excited, but it's cautiously excited.
QB's still haven't evolved to the point they've grown eyes in the backs of their heads. The most devastating hit in football is the one you don't see coming.
Practicing three days in a row with the first team seems like a pretty good indicator of the order of things. Especially when they have been rotating a day at a time prior to these last three days.
Can't get overly excited about it considering the entire starting DL is out. Wish he was stonewalling those guys.
A lot of the OLine play is going to depend on Baker and Kitchens/Monken. I think the only way it becomes a huge problem is if Baker is slow to process and holds the ball too long.
Who gives a crap ... if u think getting first team reps 3 days in a row after a 3 man rotation before that doesn’t mean more than a depth chart ... well god bless ya dawg ...
I’ll go with first teamr eps ,,,
I don’t know who got the reps today ... i also don’t know who made the depth chart but i highly doubt it was Freddie ...
Its now 4 in a row ... but Corbett’s #1 on the depth chart and that’s what matters, just ask Pitt ... Freddie must not be looped in about the depth chart ...
I just read what Freddie said yesterday after practice. As I expected, "It's a fluid situation". As it is with many positions that aren't set in stone, setting those positions is a work in progress.
We see it every year. People jump to conclusions and get excited over things that by the beginning of the season actually meant nothing. And it wasn't "a scouting report". It's the depth chart. That too means very little concerning how it will look by the beginning of the season. So who is penciled in there is simply a progress report of where we are so far.
I'm saying that nothing done in practice from contested position means jack right now. And I'm quite sure you have no say in any of it.
Oh, and BTW, Freddie himself said that it was a "position in flux" yesterday after practice. So it seems you seem to believe you know more about it than he does. Good luck with that one MenZa.
I am going to reiterate. I thought the OL played extremely well last night on that first drive. Baker had a ton of time to throw the ball. Bernie Kosar said the same thing during the telecast.
Yes, I understand your post lol. I’m agreeing. Except on the one play, in which it APPEARED Hubbard was beat. That’s why I was wondering/asking if that was true.
He may have been beat. I can't say for sure. I would have to look at it again. With that said, compare the Redskin OL to ours. They were beat on almost every damn play. And it wasn't just one guy.
And I was impressed how BM had a cup to step up into. That first drive was a clinic! We looked good. Hats off to the O line. Despite the shuffling, they looked sound. Also count the flags; for first preseason and new rules, I was impressed!
The OL looked awesome on that first drive last night. Very impressive.
It's Baker, according to Joe Thomas. He stated the QB makes the OL, not the other way around. Correct drops, quick reads, quick decisions on time, and decisive throws.
Tretter/Bitonio/Robinson/Hubbard: limited snaps and rightfully so. Executed well on their first only series.
Kush: played a good number of early series and had a couple pressure issues but ftmp was fine. He’s the baseline RG.
Corbett: 67 snaps at C. 4-3 scheme didn’t put much in his lap all night but I thought he was solid in zone run game and helped his guards well in pass pro.
Witzmann: played RG and RT. He’s locked into the roster as of now. Had one hold but I thought he was fine all night.
Seaton: issues being beat off the edge. Slow in run game processing. Just can’t see it working out.
Lamm: moves well, but tech is just clunky & inconsistent. 3rd tackle & should be a solid backup.
Forbes: played mostly LG. Looked solid. Hand placement/drive & pass pro were a +
Wright: seems like he’s in the right spots but just can’t anchor well enough. Gave up too many pressure and was manipulated by power moves.
Joe Thomas did state that the QB can make the OL look better, but Baker had a ton of room to make throws. Bernie talked about it. Freddie talked about it. I saw it. It happened.
This is not me knocking Baker. It's me giving credit to the OL. You argue about the most ridiculous things.
Huh? I said the OL did a great job on the first drive. I said they gave Baker a lot of room to survey the field and make his throws. Bernie, Timid, and Freddie agreed. You said Baker made the OL look good.
And again, I wasn't bad-mouthing Baker. On the Post-Game thread, I led w/how great he looked. I'm just trying to recognize how good the OL looked.
I didn't think you were bad mouthing Baker. And I don't have a problem with what you said about the OL. I was voicing my opinion on the matter just like you were.
Dep, I think the key was the room they gave Baker to see the field.
One of the announcers mentioned during the game that because Baker is a short qb, he would rather face pressure from the outside and have room in the middle so he can move in the pocket and find throwing lanes.
That's what I was most impressed with was how much space he had between him and guys in his sight lines. That's huge!
Austin Corbett not being able to beat out Kush is not what you want. It seems like the front office might have had an inkling that they whiffed on Corbett because they brought in two veterans just in case he wasn't able to take the job.
I think they are starting to look at Corbett as their long term Center when Tretter's contract runs out.
I would be shocked if that was the case.
Are you saying they aren't playing Corbett at right guard because they want him to play center eventually? Or are you saying they think Corbett will be the starting center after this season despite not being able to beat out a journeymen guard?
(Tretter's contract is up after this season and he is very good.)
I think the most likely scenario is that Corbett is just not good. Guys that you value don't play the entire first preseason game.
Side note: It's understandable to whiff on a pick. Even a valuable second round pick. Literally everyone does it. All the time. You just hope to hit more often than not. If you do then you are golden. As of right now we are coming out of the 2018 draft with three All-Pro caliber players (Baker Mayfield, Denzel Ward, and Nick Chubb), a rotational pass rusher (Genard Avery), and some lottery chips (Chad Thomas, Antonio Callaway, and Damion Ratley). That is about as good of a draft as a team will ever have.
They have hardly played Corbett at RG in pad practices ... so either he is really having trouble on the right side of the OL, or he just doesn't fit at G. I remember when he was drafted, reading about the possibility of him playing Center in the NFL. That's where he appears to be spending most of his time.
I doubt that we're going to re-sign Tretter to an $8 million/year deal.
I doubt that we're going to re-sign Tretter to an $8 million/year deal.
Not sure what Tretter would demand but I'm guessing if he has another good year, I agree with you, he will come with a heavy price tag. I think protecting Mayfield should heavily weigh into consideration. We already traded away one of the best right guards in football. To let a very good Center walk the very next year when interior pass protection is becoming more and more important will an interesting move. Protecting your franchise QB should be a focus. If it's not a known commodity with Tretter, we better have a legit Plan B.
No, I understand that OBJ’s talent would mean Landry would be more expendable ... but I mean since they’re Best Buds it would make Dorsey think twice about it
Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
I’ve actually thought that Landry COULD be a casualty eventually ... BUT of course OBJ being here probably eliminates that
What? ..
OBJ being here is the only reason its an option ...
No, I understand that OBJ’s talent would mean Landry would be more expendable ... but I mean since they’re Best Buds it would make Dorsey think twice about it
Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
I’ve actually thought that Landry COULD be a casualty eventually ... BUT of course OBJ being here probably eliminates that
What? ..
OBJ being here is the only reason its an option ...
Or Landry being more willing to accept a restructuring to stay with Beckham and a franchise QB.
No, I understand that OBJ’s talent would mean Landry would be more expendable ... but I mean since they’re Best Buds it would make Dorsey think twice about it
Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
I’ve actually thought that Landry COULD be a casualty eventually ... BUT of course OBJ being here probably eliminates that
What? ..
OBJ being here is the only reason its an option ...
Or Landry being more willing to accept a restructuring to stay with Beckham and a franchise QB.
Next off seasons gonna be interesting .... the one after that is when it starts to get real real interesting ... thats when it starts to get hairy ...
We can carry VG next year if we so choose ... but man thats a lot of money at that position with what were going to have coming upon the years after that ...
I’m gonna enjoy this year ... then trust KJ to do the right thing ...
Well, when we restructure the contract or outright cut Landry next year, it will open up some salary for other players.
Yet, another hijack of a thread to further your stupid agenda. Landry might be a cap causality, but this thread is about the OL and not about your quest to win some argument.
Yes, it's about offensive linemen. Particularly an offensive lineman that may demand a high price tag. To pay for a high priced offensive lineman long-term, other factors need to be considered....namely people currently under contract. One person to consider (who I clearly think is drastically overpaid) is Landry. Addressing that contract helps allocate other monies to someone like Tretter, if we decide to keep him.
I think that both Tretter and Landry will be on the roster THIS YEAR.
I think we have a good team that contend for the playoffs and maybe more. It would be nice to focus on the OL this year and worry about contracts later on. But, you can't allow that to happen because you are still focusing on something that is in the past and you refuse to let it go.
Y-Town brought up the possibility of not paying Tretter in 2020. A legitimate consideration since Tretter is going into FA after this season and may have a high price tag if he plays like he did that past two seasons. I offered up a way to possibly pay for him. You, as usual, lose your "stuff".
I am going to try this one again since no one responded to it earlier. I think it's important to how the team performs this year. Much more important than whether or not we cut guys or resign guys down the road.
During the telecast, one of the announcers said that Baker wants a lot of room up the middle and would actually prefer that the pressure comes from the outside. That is because he is a shorter qb and needs room and lanes to see downfield and he believes [rightfully so] that he can move around in the pocket to avoid the guys rushing from the outside.
I think that is a really good point. I also think that it is encouraging that he had so much room to throw w/clear sight lines last year and on the first drive of this preseason.
We are obviously going to miss Zeitler, who was one of the top-ranked guards in the entire league last year. However, both Bitonio and Tretter had high grades as well. If the new guy can play like he did the other night in pass pro, I think that will go a long way in regards to our success this year.
Anyone wanna reply? Please? Can we keep this thread on this year's OL?
Not sure what to say other than ...... Thanks .... that's great insight and makes all the sense in the world ... as usual when it comes to football stuff your spot on ...
I would imagine teams wii attack our right side ... hopefully Kush can hold his own and can force the pressure to come from around Hubbard and not in between them ...
Honestly, I'm not concerned about the starters on the offensive line. I don't think we're going to miss Zeitler. Kush isn't Zeitler but it's not going to be a big drop off.
Our Oline is in the top half of the NFL. And that's good enough to ride deep into the playoffs.
Not sure what to say other than ...... Thanks .... that's great insight and makes all the sense in the world ... as usual when it comes to football stuff your spot on ...
I would imagine teams wii attack our right side ... hopefully Kush can hold his own and can force the pressure to come from around Hubbard and not in between them ...
If I’m not mistaken Kush is actually a good pass blocker. Where he has had issues is in the run game.
Good point about Baker liking the middle pressure-free, and that makes sense. I remember back to the Chargers game and Texans game last year (the only losses that were out of hand) and that’s what we struggled to keep clean
The pass blocking the other night was superb on the first drive and it was good all night long. The run blocking was not as good and the backups really struggled to open any holes at all.
It's too early to say for sure, but this year might be a year in which our pass sets up our run. More specifically, opponents will have to scheme to stop Baker, OBJ, Landry, Higgins, Njuko, Callaway, and our backs in the passing game, especially considering how much time we've given Baker to throw. Thus, that should theoretically open up some daylight for the running game even if those guys up front aren't excelling at it.
I think the running game is possibly where we might notice a difference on the Oline but as it pertains to Baker and the passing game, we won't skip a beat.
Zeitler was respectable, we'll see how Kush fairs. I have a feeling we'll be ok minus whatever injuries we may sustain.
Yeah, injuries are the big concern right now. Zeitler and Tretter have experienced multiple injuries in the past. We need those guys. And hell, I can't even remember the names of our backup tackles.
I wonder if Dorsey will bring in a a guy or two after the cuts are made?
I was just talking last night about us playing the Steelers, Rams, Ravens, etc ... teams with good run Ds ... I’d always look to pass early and often, then set up off of that
Yeah, injuries are the big concern right now. Zeitler and Tretter have experienced multiple injuries in the past. We need those guys. And hell, I can't even remember the names of our backup tackles.
I wonder if Dorsey will bring in a a guy or two after the cuts are made?
Sorry, jumping in...
I know Kalis is a back up. Corbett, as discussed, played center all night against the 'Skins. Tretter is expensive and won't be with us much longer and possibly even gone after this year. And as Vers said, he has been injured in the past and played w/an ankle issue last year. We can't guarantee to get 16 games out of him. I'm glad to see the coaches pushing Corbett as center in case we need to rely on him. IF, we get that out of him that will be a huge coup for Dorsey as thus far Corbett has seemed more like a Cam Erving problem...bouncing all over the line to try and find his sweet spot where he can shine.
Must admit, I'm kinda bummed we got rid of Austin Reiter. Isn't he the starting center for KC? That one game he played in w/RGIII v Washington (I think he was behind center?) he looked REALLY good and then he got hurt and we kinda moved on from him.
I expect us to be scouring the wire for OLman and kickers ....
Maybe we’ll even trade a jalen strongor willies for an OLman another team is gonna cut ...
This makes sense, though I hope we find a consistently productive place for Strong.
In regards to Oline,I haven't heard any news on Kalis' concussion as of yet. When it happened, I was reminded again of the lack of depth. And, as another said, I have trouble remembering our back-up tackles sometimes. Versatility on the line is important, but if we're having to move one of our 5 starters out of position to compensate for more than a couple games, we're in trouble already.
It shouldn't be terribly hard to audition some kickers that have been waived, but I have a strong suspicion Freddy will be going with Joseph against the Titans.
I wonder if any of our back-up QBs will be on that waiver wire.
I hope we get the line finalized soon. I liked most of what I saw at QB, but we should find three and deal the 4th if possible. Sorry to see some of the position cuts that will need to happen. Still, talent AND depth: That is two dreams come true already.
PS For what it is worth, I have some semi-friends who have ridden me personally for a number of seasons about my Browns fan addiction affliction; FWIW, these folks, who favor the other three teams, Balt, Cynci, Pits, all have seen an impressive improvement in us and expect us to win, split, or battle better this year than we have. One thing to hear it from the funny types on here, but coming from the Enemy, it is sweet music in my ear.
I hope we get the line finalized soon. I liked most of what I saw at QB, but we should find three and deal the 4th if possible. Sorry to see some of the position cuts that will need to happen. Still, talent AND depth: That is two dreams come true already.
PS For what it is worth, I have some semi-friends who have ridden me personally for a number of seasons about my Browns fan addiction affliction; FWIW, these folks, who favor the other three teams, Balt, Cynci, Pits, all have seen an impressive improvement in us and expect us to win, split, or battle better this year than we have. One thing to hear it from the funny types on here, but coming from the Enemy, it is sweet music in my ear.
In Southeastern Arizona, there really are no Bengals or Ravens fans - some bandwagon Steelers fans. Relatively few OU fans, except for retired military (in regards to Baker). Cardinals fans are only present when the team is good. I'm a very visible Browns fan, and I'm used to sympathetic or jeering looks. This year, of course, is different. But the remarks are only about Mayfield or OBJ. Hard to get face to face, substantive Browns discussions here.
I hope we get the line finalized soon. I liked most of what I saw at QB, but we should find three and deal the 4th if possible. Sorry to see some of the position cuts that will need to happen. Still, talent AND depth: That is two dreams come true already.
PS For what it is worth, I have some semi-friends who have ridden me personally for a number of seasons about my Browns fan addiction affliction; FWIW, these folks, who favor the other three teams, Balt, Cynci, Pits, all have seen an impressive improvement in us and expect us to win, split, or battle better this year than we have. One thing to hear it from the funny types on here, but coming from the Enemy, it is sweet music in my ear.
In Southeastern Arizona, there really are no Bengals or Ravens fans - some bandwagon Steelers fans. Relatively few OU fans, except for retired military (in regards to Baker). Cardinals fans are only present when the team is good. I'm a very visible Browns fan, and I'm used to sympathetic or jeering looks. This year, of course, is different. But the remarks are only about Mayfield or OBJ. Hard to get face to face, substantive Browns discussions here.
Thus, the board (most of the time).
Same w/Oregon.. it's mainly Ducks/Beavers country, but NFL wise it is also Seahawks country, but tbh only when good so the past few years have brought more blue and green out and about. Niners/SF Giants & GSW country as well, but only when good. I don't remember too many people liking the Warriors when they were rubbish. Def bandwagon Pats, Steelers etc. fans. But, so many people in Portland have moved here and brought their own allegiance and there are bars for most/all teams. I have and always will wear my Browns hat/shirts w/pride and for most of my 12 years in Portland I have had to make jokes back to the snide remarks "well somebody has to be a fan and for sins in my life I guess I am that guy" etc.). I remember one year wearing my Browns beanie and a guy saying to somebody else in disbelief as we walked out the door, "dude was wearing a Browns beanie".
BUT, just these past couple months I have seen many Browns jerseys on our streets and have had people comment "Go Browns" to me in the grocery, gas stations, bars etc.
Dep, I think the key was the room they gave Baker to see the field.
One of the announcers mentioned during the game that because Baker is a short qb, he would rather face pressure from the outside and have room in the middle so he can move in the pocket and find throwing lanes.
That's what I was most impressed with was how much space he had between him and guys in his sight lines. That's huge!
What I liked was that everyone did their job handily in one on one blocking. Nobody got any help that series and Baker had plenty of time. I didn't look at his drops for the longer throws. Were they 5 or 7 step?
I think next year we will have a new starting center and they are grooming Corbett for that job. He will have one full year of work at center and should provide a smooth transition.’ There was a great interview with Joel Bitonio on brown’s website. He is very high onCorbett . He stressed the difficult Corbett faced switching to the right side after years on the left. He talked about differences in footwork etc. I do not think Corbett will end up being a bust.
#Browns coach Freddie Kitchens said rookie Drew Forbes got more reps with ones at right guard today because he flashed in preseason opener last week and first joint practice with #Colts yesterday. Freddie said it's like a reward system, like a gas card
The game of football, I think it's always been a run first game,
Running, Tackling, Blocking, then;
passing, is what you do when you have to,
but the thing is, if you chose to pass, you have to test the waters deep, to stretch the whole field and make the defense defend the whole field,
that sets up the short passing,
I've been thinking recently of all the Browns championships I've hear of and how, they always had better running backs than they do on an average year,
I mean, I don't know how passing can be considered the most efficient,
Woody Hayes, said when you pass three things can happen, and two of them are bad.
Sadly for now, it seems like all the right guard candidates suck.
Not spoken in those words but this post most resembles my thoughts.
Nobody has grabbed the position yet and we are in preseason game #2. Forbes just might be the most Athletic RG candidate. From his draft Profile:
Strengths Controlled, choppy steps into initial engagements Will fire hips into blocks for additional jolt Effective gallop step technique into down blocks Plays with strain and grit at point of attack Lower body is loose and athletic Balance to recover and re-engage Works to reset hands when they slide out of place Can pop, collect and seal defenders for run lane creation Fluid hips and feet to handle lateral duties Gets to backside climb blocks and washes down linebackers Adjusts to moving targets
Weaknesses Is a little bit high-cut in his build Plays with too much forward lean in pass sets Needs hands to attack with efficient path to opponents frame Hands tend to drift outside in initial challenges Level of competition could cause slow transition Faces substantial jump in opponent's power with move to guard Tape is filled with head ducking Needs to latch in strong with his hands to secure
I think he has worked hard on some of his weaknesses and is getting the most out of his opportunity. I know some are saying Kush has the job but I think Kush is a well I guess we will "SETTLE" for him as he makes the least mistakes.
I like the kid Forbes Almost as much as I disliked Corbett when we obtained them.
I think its obvious that Forbes is the only one taking advantage of the opportunity. My money is on him, hope he gets the start Saturday!
Jury is still out on the kicking game, but going into his 2nd year I am not convinced of Corbett. I do hope he succeeds, but at 33rd pick this is the biggest question mark on Dorsey's time here. But, for all the good things he has brought to the club and our many riches, I can accept it. I am pulling for the guy and hopeful he can grow. Schwartz became a great player, but many of us were unsure of him in his early days too.
Sadly for now, it seems like all the right guard candidates suck.
I noticed a couple years ago that my opinions and your expressed opinions on whether (any given player) was good or bad were almost 100 percent in opposition.
You are right that there is no clear superstar in there, and I think Kush will eventually start, If Forbes is getting attention, maybe it means Forbes is showing toughness, But isn't he more naturally a taller outside tackle, backing up in pass protection,... instead of a (standing shorter stance), inside, seek and find, (forward run blocking) guard?
Corbett doesn't suck, he just has limited upside, but he can be useful in situations, in my opinion,
Pretty sure Kush will end up the starter, but only because I was pretty sure "one of" the three guys they signed in Feb/Mar was going to start, from the day they let Zeitler go.
They didn't get a first teamer in the draft this year, and they didn't appear to have a guy in position to transition in during year two, from last year;
except Corbett, Figure it's going to come down to Corbett and whichever one of the three Feb/march guys, (free agent vet signing), that they chose to fill that same role,
Looks like Corbett, ..excuse me,.. Looks like Kush is going to get the starter role, and either way I think they'll be fine,
If Forbes, is getting attention, and reps, it's probably a reward for something Forbes has been showing in practice and camp.
I don't think they'll, the guys going to suck,
They just don't have a "superstar" in there like they did with, (or close to with), Zeitler.
They'll be fine, Kalais, is a journeyman center backup interior guy , with similar potential and upside, but he's got a minor injury these weeks.
Ok, every stop freaking out. We might not have a Zeitler, but I doubt if any of these guys “suck”.
WELL, I agree that there are serious questions on Corbett. But, I wouldn't say he "sucks". I trust Dorsey's talent evaluators, but the kid needs to step up and show serious improvement this season.
BUT, get used to it...as fans many in here used to say Mitchell Schwartz and Buster Skrine sucked (only to boo hoo a couple years later when the FO didn't re-sign them or let them walk).
Ok, every stop freaking out. We might not have a Zeitler, but I doubt if any of these guys “suck”.
WELL, I agree that there are serious questions on Corbett. But, I wouldn't say he "sucks". I trust Dorsey's talent evaluators, but the kid needs to step up and show serious improvement this season.
BUT, get used to it...as fans many in here used to say Mitchell Schwartz and Buster Skrine sucked (only to boo hoo a couple years later when the FO didn't re-sign them or let them walk).
I agree about Corbett. Time to take the job, if you’re going to be the man. If it just so happens that another guy is better, then, it is what it is. I’m sure we all wanted him to be the more better Zeitler, but, to be honest, that was a big ask. Zeitler is a damn good player.
It isn't a dig on Dorsey. It is just disappointing.
If Corbett doesn't work out, it is a ding on Dorsey. But one pick doesn't make or break a GM.
You can focus on a missed pick, but objective folks would look at the Browns having the worst roster in the NFL pre-Dorsey to perhaps the most talented roster AD. And he did it in just two years.
Exactly. If Corbett is a bust, and as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on that, It's only one pick. What about all the other good picks, trades and pick-ups JD has made? How can anyone badger him on Corbett and not look at all the other positives. Ridiculous.
It isn't a dig on Dorsey. It is just disappointing.
If Corbett doesn't work out, it is a ding on Dorsey. But one pick doesn't make or break a GM.
You can focus on a missed pick, but objective folks would look at the Browns having the worst roster in the NFL pre-Dorsey to perhaps the most talented roster AD. And he did it in just two years.
Incredible!
I think the Browns had one of the worst rosters pre-Sashi too.
At this point, probably best that we get back on-topic...
I agree.
Back on topic...Corbett sucks.
But I hope the Browns don't give up on him.
That would be a very Browns thing to do.
I heard something interesting the other day regarding the Steelers. First, no one develops players like the Steelers do. That's why I think they should be considered the favorite in the north. But what I heard was that they have a 3 year plan for all of their draftees. I found that comment interesting.
I think we all know why Memphis is focusing on Corbett.
Because Doug Lesmerises said he was bad, so I obliged.
He didn't say he was bad. He offered no take whatsoever other than reporting the guys alternating at RG. He did NOT talk about technique, strength, explosion, etc.
But, I am not surprised you consider him a good source.
Corbett’s performance was not good today. I mean, we’ve already been shown (per the coaching decisions) that he can’t play RG ... well, he can’t play C right now either. Plus, I’ve read “experts” that are trusted w/Browns info that his effort was poor as well
Can you provide some specifics? I tried watching him today and it was very difficult.
Not calling you out, but it seems like it's a popular thing to rip the dude. I have experience at scouting and I found it almost impossible to see if he was doing a good or bad job. What did you see that led you to such a strong position? Please provide specific examples. Thanks.
Well, just to start with ... he was at center for the entire game (that I saw) ... and he had probably 4-5 snaps that were VERY bad (disrupted/destroyed the play and got our QB into danger)
He also was shown being screamed at by the coaching staff (I saw the clip on twitter and it was due to a lack of effort from the comments I saw).
I saw 2-3 times via replay that he was beaten by the DT and whiffed, which caused losses of yardage.
I’d also add (just from a coaching perspective) that there’s a reason he was still in at the very end of the game. You don’t see many guys who are even close to starters (or even real backups) in at that point in time. The coaches clearly did it for a reason
Corbett is struggling I agree, but I also saw Cam Erving struggle here. Worst lineman ever I thought. Hasn't he started for the Chiefs for the last few years? Corbett is entering his second season with 1 start and has played in 11 games. I think we can give him the year to develop, unless the talent behind him is so much better. Dorsey saw something or we would not have drafted him.
Only saw 2 bad snaps...that of course is 2 too many...lol
Don't forget Gilbert has a bad habit of jumping up a tad on EVERY SHOTGUN Snap. So hard to see any bad ones but I counted two.
He is taking a lot of valuable snaps at center and then staying with Center throughout the game. Either he is the automatic Center next year? or he will have to go.
Dorsey has to draft a good OL man in the 1st or 2nd round to make up for this bad draft of a player! From Day one when it was said that we didn't have a position for him. They can say all they want about an OL that can play all the positions I say dawg poop on that. That would tell me he isn't good enough to be part of a plan as a great OLman for a specific position. Now if that was Center they should have stated that.
He is as close to a bust as I can see us making on a top 33 pick.
Corbett knew going into this year the position was open. He also knew other guys (Kush) were brought in to compete. The job would not be given to him.
Tab brought up a point about Corbett in college. He played tackle but it was clear that he was out of position.
Joe Thomas said early he was not tackle material. When a player is not position defined it can be difficult. They then get tried out when they should be refining a position skill set.
Corbett is stuck in trying to find a fit. I have no idea how it will end. Maybe he flunks out. Maybe he becomes a center. He is a young guy and sometimes it takes more than one year.
No GM as any Browns fan knows hits on every pick. Impossible. There is no way on earth I hold the Corbett pick over Dorsey's head as a mark of failure.
When you look at first all the guys Dorsey flushed out who stunk. Then replaced with guys who are contributors.
The transformation of the roster is incredible. There is not a single person who covers the NFL that is not aware of what has been done in Cleveland.
No, Dorsey can not be 100% on his picks that is true. But OL sorry its a positive that is easily scouted. And very few turn out bums. Harrison was one of the few and I'm so glad he's reviving his OL status with us.
But for the most part at #33 regarding INTERIOR OL...the kid should be a stud not an OH maybe he can learn this position or that.
I love Dorsey, I bow to him every year with amazing trades, FA signing and his draft picks. In regards to missing the boat on a #33 overall pick for the OL...I'm disappointed but don't think for a moment I'm saying get rid of him or he doesn't know how to draft. Just this is the first big OL pick he made and I'm not happy with it. Heck...even others did well with a Mack, with a Shwartz, with a Bitonio the last two picked later in the draft than a Corbett. I saw goood in those two from their first year. Not Corbett and now its year two and it ain't getting better.
Do we blame Dorsey? Wilies the OL coach of that time? Podesta if this was some sort of analytical thing?
Don't know all I do know is I didn't like it from day one and from me being an OL nut that is a big time disappointment. Heck I was more happy with our 7th round pick of Paul Zaukaukus then Corbett!
Just IMO no pick is a given. It doesn't matter the position.
Hell I thought Trent Richardson was going to be a stud and I was not alone.
Cam Irving a first rounder? I can name a bunch of OL drafted real high that bombed.
A day does not pass when I don't have to pinch myself to make sure this team is the Browns. After being tortured for years. I am so grateful today to be a Browns fan. And that would not be the case without Dorsey.
I’d be good with giving him time if we think he might eventually pan out (even into a solid depth guy) ... but I also don’t want us to keep him strictly because of his draft slot and/or if he isn’t showing the effort we are asking.
Austin Corbett hasn’t seen work with he first-team offense at right guard since before the Orange and Brown scrimmage/practice on Aug. 3.
Corbett has been working almost exclusively as the backup center, while being shuffled at right and left guard with the twos and threes, but that doesn’t mean he’s out of the running for the starting job according to head coach Freddie Kitchens.
“No, he is not [out of the competition],” Kitchens said Sunday. “We have to have somebody that snaps the ball and not leave (C) JC Tretter on the field the whole game. Right now, Austin is working at center. We are working a couple of other guys at center that just are not getting the amount of reps.”
Corbett, who saw a combined 48 snaps, struggled mightily Saturday against the Colts backups and while Kitchens maintains the 33rd overall pick in the 2018 Draft is still in the running to start, his work tells a different story.
Corbett does not look like a starter and it’s clear that Kitchens is testing his versatility.
“When you do cut your roster down, you need a certain amount of guys that can snap the ball, a certain amount of guys that can play guard and a certain amount of guys that can play tackle,” Kitchens said. “If you ever have somebody that can play all three, you are kind of ahead of the game.”
While the perception is that Kitchens is running out of time to figure out what to do at right guard, he isn’t in a hurry to decide if he’ll stick with Eric Kush, who has been taking the majority of the one reps the last three weeks.
“We are going to continue to look at people,” Kitchens said. “I have a sense of urgency everywhere, but I don’t know that we are running out of time per se. I don’t know who sets the rules as far as to [when you have to name a starter]. I thought we only needed a starter by the time we get to September 8. That is the way I am approaching it. You probably would like to have one in place that Monday or Tuesday before. You may see something you haven’t seen in a guy up until then.
“I think a couple of the guys we have been playing there are just now getting kind of comfortable. We will see. We still have two games left and in theory six practices before we start preparation [for Week 1].”
Drew Forbes has gotten a look recently, and he saw time at both guard spots Saturday.
“He is continuing to get comfortable as far as knowing what to do and how to do it,” Kitchens said. “He is in the mix, and we will see where it goes. He is getting better. You see Drew getting better even within [practices].
“I think he got better as game went on. He was better in the game this week than he was last week in the game. He just needs to keep that upward trend. One thing I like to tell young guys is don’t make the same mistake twice. I don’t mind you making mistakes. Just don’t make it again. If we can continue to build our repertoire of that, then we will be OK, and that is at all positions.”
Things are not looking good for the young man right now ... but its way way to early to write him off ...
tabber i’d love to see the stats on how OL drafted between 28 - 38 have faired between lets say 2010 - 2015 ... maybe one of the Depo humpers or sashiettes can find it ...
IMO spending all that cash on Hubbard was a much bigger mistake than drafting a potential bust at #33 ... the sashiettes always whine over VG being overpaid ... funny how they overlook Hubbard ... ..
The thing i love about the dawgs that want to cut bait with Corbett (not saying u do tabber) is that its not like we’ve 3 or 4 young dudes with potential were gonna have to cut to keep him ... we’ve got a FEW VETERAN BUMS we can let go of when we sign dudes off the waiver wire before we get to Corbett ...
I know he’s PS eligible (and I’ve seen others suggest it as well) but I doubt he’d get past other teams to get there ... some teams are more desperate than us and he was drafted very high.
They don't have to keep 9 O line, some years they have started with 8. They don't have to cut a backup just because they don't start. I think idealy if everbodys solid and versatile, you're better off keeping 8 instead of 9, give that spot to another position group.
Things are not looking good for the young man right now ... but its way way to early to write him off ...
tabber i’d love to see the stats on how OL drafted between 28 - 38 have faired between lets say 2010 - 2015 ... maybe one of the Depo humpers or sashiettes can find it ...
IMO spending all that cash on Hubbard was a much bigger mistake than drafting a potential bust at #33 ... the sashiettes always whine over VG being overpaid ... funny how they overlook Hubbard ... ..
The thing i love about the dawgs that want to cut bait with Corbett (not saying u do tabber) is that its not like we’ve 3 or 4 young dudes with potential were gonna have to cut to keep him ... we’ve got a FEW VETERAN BUMS we can let go of when we sign dudes off the waiver wire before we get to Corbett ...
Admittedly Corbett has been disappointing ... but what does that say about the two Veterans we signed? Neither of them have staked their claim to a job either.
My guess is that Kush will start the season as our RG, and we will not cut our rookie Forbes who I think will eventually stake his flag and claim the RG postion.
Lamm is the only viable canidate on our roster to be our swing OT. (Although we may still look to upgrade after the cuts)
They are not ready to throw in the towel on Corbett, so we have 8 roster spots on our roster taken up, with one more possible opening for another who may or may not be on our current roster.
Could somebody who is well-versed with OL play break down what Forbes’ strengths and weaknesses are at this point? What’s he need to improve? What’s his upside? Etc.
I was going to start another post but it makes sense to do it here
Anyone who tries to answer all your questions will be full of crap,we haven't seen enough of him to make that type of diagnosis. The 2 or 3 plays I focused on him,one thought came to mind,cement shoes. But of coarse I had a good buzz on by that time,and that thought was quickly followed up by I'm hungry,pastrami sandwich.
They don't have to keep 9 O line, some years they have started with 8. They don't have to cut a backup just because they don't start. I think idealy if everbodys solid and versatile, you're better off keeping 8 instead of 9, give that spot to another position group.
I wasn't making a case for keeping (9) OL, I was making a case for Corbett being a cut-possibility because we have (7) guys who aren't going anywhere and Corbett isn't one of those (7).
If we only go with (8), Corbett's chances get worse as there are several "viable" vets and some young guys fighting it out with him for that last spot. That was my point.
Corbett is not at "BUM" status. Just disappointed at Dorsey as Corbett was the first OL he took at impact value. Also I think OL is the easiest to separate the men from the boys.
I can see him becoming a better than average Center. Its a position he has to learn and a position that he's been placed at the most in that learning process. Most of last year and back again this year. I hope we just name him as the heir apparent at Center and let him get most all his reps there.
Of courses we have drafted some OL that haven't made it.
What I don't like is that we have only done so 3 times in the last 7 drafts. Bitonio who I thought was a Home Run...but then Irving in the first round and now Corbett in the 2nd.
Prior to that we pretty much hit on all the Impact picks on OL. which again were not many. Jeff Faine C who studded a bit with Saints. Joe Thomas LT first ballot HOF I'm sure! Alex Mack C pro bowler. Mitchell Schwartz RT. Solid starter close to Pro Bowl level of play year in and out. Joel Bitonio LG Stud! Cameron Erving C at best a backup for a first round investment Corbett T/G/C??? Has yet to find a position.
These are all the Impact picks (First and Second Rounds) since 1999 that we invested in. The last two that we made have not given us any positive. I wish for us to put a stop to that trend!
Two things I read today about Corbet that are very disconcerting:
Lacks functional strength at the point of contact;
Lacks athleticism to move laterally with quickness.
I'm no guru here...but what position on the OL can you put a guy like that? I'm guessing his technique isn't great either - if for no other reason than he's not played inside or on the rightside until now.
Things are not looking good for the young man right now ... but its way way to early to write him off ...
tabber i’d love to see the stats on how OL drafted between 28 - 38 have faired between lets say 2010 - 2015 ... maybe one of the Depo humpers or sashiettes can find it ...
IMO spending all that cash on Hubbard was a much bigger mistake than drafting a potential bust at #33 ... the sashiettes always whine over VG being overpaid ... funny how they overlook Hubbard ... ..
The thing i love about the dawgs that want to cut bait with Corbett (not saying u do tabber) is that its not like we’ve 3 or 4 young dudes with potential were gonna have to cut to keep him ... we’ve got a FEW VETERAN BUMS we can let go of when we sign dudes off the waiver wire before we get to Corbett ...
Don't think I'm defending Hubbard but his pay isn't quite as bad as it seems if you dive into the details. His yearly cap hit is in line with a top10-15 RT. He's played near but id say below that level. Youll always overpay for a FA though so considering all that, assuming his play doesnt go down, it's not as bad as his total contract number might portray. He's also really easily cut after this year. Dorsey gave us as out that would stretch 4M of dead money over 2020-2022 but save us almost 7M a year should we be able to replace him. I think Forbes should get a shot next year at RT. He's got the feet to play wide.
Corbett is not at "BUM" status. Just disappointed at Dorsey as Corbett was the first OL he took at impact value. Also I think OL is the easiest to separate the men from the boys.
I know, Dorsey missing on Corbett in the 2nd round is alarming. After all, he only picked a franchise QB, a pro-bowl rookie CB, and a stud RB in the first 2 rounds. That he didn't hit home runs on all 4 picks has me wondering if he's qualified for the job.
Good Grief.... After all the right moves, this may have been a stinker, but there are numerous “why did he do that” .... that have turned out better than expected..
I've been pleasantly surprised with the work done by Hubbard. He is a keeper unless we draft a STUD.
Here I will be the nerd that you want...lol only cause I am an OL nut
First two rounds (IMPACT) rounds , from 1999 to present, that all should be considered a hit if not then a failure on the scouting department. Not sure which ones that don't make it are due to INJURY???
I would say taken around our #33 Corbett. Only Xavier am I not familiar with maybe an Injury guy??? Point is all PRETTY DARN GOOD and immediate Starters not this year 2 and still a back up. ERGO my disappointment with Dorsey in this pick. It is a "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT PICK" and I'm wondering if this was a Wilie pick??? A scouts pick, A Hue pick from the Senior Bowl? Just is so NOT LIKE DORSEY.
Yeah, I think a lot of us were hoping Corbett would turn out the same way and just play the other OG spot lol ... it hasn’t turned out that way of course
Corbett is not at "BUM" status. Just disappointed at Dorsey as Corbett was the first OL he took at impact value. Also I think OL is the easiest to separate the men from the boys.
I know, Dorsey missing on Corbett in the 2nd round is alarming. After all, he only picked a franchise QB, a pro-bowl rookie CB, and a stud RB in the first 2 rounds. That he didn't hit home runs on all 4 picks has me wondering if he's qualified for the job.
Dorsey had an outstanding draft last year, obviously. Every GM misses though and Corbett looks to be not a great pick. It happens.
I actually wonder what the thought process was behind trading Zeitler. As that trade was originally announced, it was Zeitler for Vernon with a slight move up on a later pick (155 for 132) that is not as valuable as it sounds. These trades were later combined with the OBJ deal, which led some people to strange ideas of who got us what.
I get it that Vernon is a good player too, and plays a higher value position, but I also think O-line is very important and high priority, especially with a young QB and new offense. That extra split second in the pocket can make a big difference.
I'm just saying, the plan seemed to be that Corbett was ready to take over, and we therefore had an abundance of interior linemen and we could ship one off in a trade. Now it looks like we severely weakened the RG position and have an upgrade at DE to show for it. I just wonder if we could have kept our RG and gotten another DE elsewhere.
Was the plan Corbett taking over ?? I know that is what we were saying.. What the media thought .. but did Dorsey .. or any of his staff .. or Freddie actually say that ?? If that were the case .. then why sign 2 more Guards and draft one. I, for one, do not think the plan was ever definitively Corbett, I think the plan was exactly what has happened, bring some guards to camp and see what we can find out. Final cuts are not here. We did not get our starting Left Tackle til late last summer. It ain't ovewr til it's over...
Of course the plan was Corbett taking over. Let's not try to over analyze this.
- He was taken as the first pick in the second round. - The offensive guards now in the running for RG were signed AFTER Zeitler was traded so why would Dorsey make a deal to get rid of one of the best guards in football if he didn't already have the expected replacement on the roster. - Corbett started as the offseason #1 RG. It was his job.
It is what it is and Corbett could still end up becoming the future right guard for this team but let's not recreate the scenario here.
I like Terry Pluto of the PD more when he writes than when he talks in those Cleveland PD videos. So he wrote this in an on-line article today. It offers some perspective about RG competition that I found to be reasonable.
Here is the article below...
Cleveland Browns: What is the message with Austin Corbett not starting? — Terry Pluto Updated 8:11 AM; Today 5:00 AM
Terry Pluto talks Cleveland Browns: Offensive tackle Austin Corbett and draft talent 56 0 shares By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio — You know the Browns are in good shape when fans and media are gnashing their teeth over Austin Corbett and the right guard situation.
I’m far more worried about the kickers than right guard, but there is a message here with how the Browns are handling their 2018 second-round pick.
When the Browns drafted Corbett, I assumed he’d be like another second-round pick from Nevada. That was Joel Bitonio, selected by former GM Ray Farmer in 2014.
Bitonio was a left tackle at Nevada. Corbett later replaced him at that spot.
The Browns immediately moved Bitonio to left guard in the NFL, and he was the opening day starter. He has held the position ever since and was picked to his first Pro Bowl at the end of last season.
When Browns GM John Dorsey picked Corbett at the top of the second round in 2018, there was some consideration of him replacing future Hall of Famer Joe Thomas at left tackle. Most scouts and draft experts viewed Corbett as a guard or perhaps a center in the NFL.
Last year, he was not going to take away jobs from guard Kevin Zeitler or Bitonio. Nor could he beat out solid pro JC Tretter at center.
But when Zeitler was traded to the New York Giants as part of the Odell Beckham/Olivier Vernon trade, right guard was open for Corbett.
So far, he has yet to win the job and it’s doubtful he will start opening day.
SERIOUS ABOUT COMPETITION
If the Browns were still in the massive building stage of 2016-17, they could start Corbett anyway and hope he grows into a viable left guard.
But the Browns are talking playoffs, and that’s a realistic goal. It also means they have to be serious about playing the best guys regardless of draft position.
Over and over, Coach Freddie Kitchens has been preaching “competition.” He wants jobs to be won, not handed to prized young players.
Rookie Greedy Williams is having a strong training camp, but he is battling with veteran Terrance Mitchell for a starting cornerback spot. So far, Mitchell is holding off the young man from LSU. Even if he doesn’t start, Williams will be on the field often. Teams need five or six defensive backs with all the passing in the NFL.
But only five offensive linemen play at a time, and it appears Corbett does not deserve to be one of them. Journeyman Eric Kush appears to be the likely starter at right guard. Corbett also had a rough day at center with two bad snaps and a holding penalty last week in Indianapolis. It’s clear he’s struggling with confidence.
YOU CAN’T ALWAYS BE RIGHT
Dorsey has a fabulous drafting record with the Browns. He has had four picks in the first two rounds of the 2018 and 2019 drafts, and three of them are impact starters – Baker Mayfield, Nick Chubb and Denzel Ward.
If it turns out Corbett is a miss, so be it.
Many draft experts were surprised when Corbett was drafted that high. But they also were surprised when Mayfield was the No. 1 pick and Ward was the No. 4 pick.
Very few of them saw Chubb being drafted No. 35, two selections behind Corbett.
The Browns should be patient with Corbett. Offensive linemen get hurt. Depth is needed.
In the meantime, who plays is important to the integrity of the front office/coaching staff. Players pay close attention to who seems to be given favored status that isn’t deserved.
For example, Dorsey traded veteran Carlos Hyde at mid-season because it was evident Chubb had emerged as the superior running back. The rookie from Georgia earned the position.
As far as skill set to play the position RG is the easiest to fill. I think that and the age as well as $$$ involved with Zeitler and not sure but possibly this was his last year on his contract and it was something we decided that we would not pursue. Dorsey making the pick I'm sure cannot think he was WRONG in judgment on the OL. I don't know his history on OL but I don't think he has had any big input in OL possibly his theory as in our Clark of years past OL is something you can put together easily??? Work on other things.
As long as you got a good OL Coach you should be able to get a good Pass Pro OL by having them all work together as a UNIT over individual talent. We will see I think we got some talent at OL I want to see how Forbes Plays out and hopefully he will be our RG? They also see a lot in Lamm. Possibly a talent from Nowhere is what Dorsey does, better than a #33 pick at OL.
I don't have any lack of faith in Dorsey in his overall drafting abilities. But just focusing on OL its the one POSITIONAL GROUP he has not elevated. Actually its a tad lowered in quality if you ask me.
We can point to plays in isolation and focus on them that the OL played bad in pass pro, but that is a false narrative. The OL gave Baker way, way more time than Winston got.
Every qb gets pressured. Baker stunk tonight and the OL was not the problem.
I disagree w/you about the OL. I think they did a poor job in run blocking, but I thought they gave Baker more than enough time on most plays. Not every play. But, most plays. No qb has all day to throw on EVERY play. Baker has received more time to throw in his brief career than perhaps any qb during that time span.
I’m not as concerned with our pass pro, even after tonight ... our run blocking is an issue for me, though. We really haven’t even tried to establish a running game, so maybe that’s part of the problem ... but man, we just don’t seem to generate many lanes for our RBs
OL looked lazy on some plays and did not do their job well on pass protection. Runblocking was miserable overall. Baker had a discouraging night, and some of his frequent targets had dropsy. He was holding it too long at times, and the electricity wasn't there much. For playing a half, this offense took us out of the game. Hats off to FG team!
Halfway through the third, I was fairly sure we would give this away. Hopefully this will serve as a wake up call. Who needs cut is getting clearer to me. We also need to settle on a starting line and let them work as a starting unit soon. JMHO
We also need to settle on a starting line and let them work as a starting unit soon. JMHO
Agreed here.
I think we settled on a starting line and they have been working together for awhile.
For a long time, I have thought that fans [not just Brown's fans or folks on this board] and the local media across the NFL are much too critical of offensive line play.
O-lines are going to give up sacks. They are not always going to open up holes for the RBs. Defensive players are paid well to make sacks, force quick throws and stop the run.
It's like fans don't think much about when their team is creating sacks, but then freak out if their own team gives up some pressures.
Take last night for example. Let's say you recruited fifty people who know football and had absolutely no alliance to either team and had them evaluate the line play for both teams. What do you think they would say?
A. The Browns OL is a mess. B. The Bucs OL is a mess. C. The Browns DL is impressive. D. The Bucs DL is impressive.
I am willing to say that B and C would the overwhelming....and I mean--overwhelming--choices of those impartial viewers.
I experienced this first hand as a RB. I would break a long run and folks would be saying "what a great run." I would get stuffed at the LOS and folks would be saying "the blocking sucked."
I made sure to let my guys know I didn't feel that way. LOL......I knew who buttered my bread.
That’s the thing about our entire first team O ... there’s very little GAME reps as a unit (not just the OL) ... it’s why the first game or two in the NFL is always rough
We can point to plays in isolation and focus on them that the OL played bad in pass pro, but that is a false narrative. The OL gave Baker way, way more time than Winston got.
Every qb gets pressured. Baker stunk tonight and the OL was not the problem.
You really Hate Baker that much...granted I thought he definitely had a bad day but what WR had separatedd themselves where the windows weren't tight.
And as the game wore on the OL got worse in their time. You act as if getting his does not alter a QB. Heck your boy had a completely WHITE uniform in those games you worshiped him. As soon as it got a bit dirty he was done.
Winston had lest time? Ummm Duh - he was scrambling from the snap on most plays...lol What does that have to do with our OL not doing well.
I thought there was enough blame to go around to all. But I also thought our O plan sucked as we never created any space and didn't run the ball to do Play action one bit.
Right away one bad game and you are prancing around like you are happy or proven correct that our Franchise QB is not a franchise QB but instead sucks. What's wrong with you...your Ego is more important than the Browns???
You have reached a new low to not recognize the poor play by the OL.
Kush let Suh run right over him one on one killing our QB Robinson more than once got beat like a drum. False narrative my ass... OL gets some of the blame as does the QB and Play caller and WRs and TE as well! Chubb, OBJ, Landry and Njoku all sitting on their butts didn't help either!
Right away one bad game and you are prancing around like you are happy or proven correct that our Franchise QB is not a franchise QB but instead sucks. What's wrong with you...your Ego is more important than the Browns???
I know that. Anyone who says anything negative about Baker gets treated that way by tab.
The kid had a bad night in a preseason game. He's had good games. Each game stands on its own.
We are all Browns fans we all want Baker to be a great QB. Just because some people don't like him running his mouth doesn't change that. Just because you point out he had a poor performance doesn't change that.
I just learned to consider the source and move on.
Freddie Kitchens on right guard situation: Eric Kush will get first shot to show what he can do and if we had to play a game today he would be our right guard
Freddie Kitchens on right guard situation: Eric Kush will get first shot to show what he can do and if we had to play a game today he would be our right guard
Freddie Kitchens on right guard situation: Eric Kush will get first shot to show what he can do and if we had to play a game today he would be our right guard
That’s the thing about our entire first team O ... there’s very little GAME reps as a unit (not just the OL) ... it’s why the first game or sixteen in the NFL is always rough
NFL writer Marc Sessler on the Browns Offensive Line:
Baker's enviable arm gifts are not the issue. The offensive line, though, is a different story. For all the headline-stealing offseason pickups in Cleveland, retaining Greg Robinson as the club's post-Joe Thomas answer at left tackle never passed the smell test. The first-round flameout gave up a sack and two hurries and drew a pair of frustrating penalties against Tampa. Every team in the league will target Mr. Greg as a pathway to Baker's blind side.
Left guard Joel Bitonio is a rock, while center JC Tretter should be viewed as a contract-extension candidate entering his walk-year in Cleveland. We hit troubled waters again at right guard, where Austin Corbett -- last year's 33rd overall pick -- has refused to evolve. Cleveland is stuck filling the spot with Eric Kush, a low-level journeyman with 12 starts since 2013. Coach Freddie Kitchens minced no words regarding the situation, saying of Kush: "He's got to continue to get better. He's not a finished product by any stretch of the imagination."
Can you imagine floating home on the interstate in stunned silence after your boss described your career in these terms to the entire office?
The outlook at right tackle is equally troubling, with Chris Hubbard (sporting a career grade from Pro Football Focus of -23.9) struggling throughout the preseason. The Browns streaked down the stretch last season due to a reshaped line, but Robinson allowed a whopping 19 hurries from Week 9 on, per PFF. Two decisions -- assuming the Rams bust was worthy of a reprise role and shipping away stellar guard Kevin Zeitler in the Beckham swap with the Giants -- have created a real-time sinkhole for Cleveland.
If I'm Browns general manager John Dorsey, I'm calling Redskins front-office heavy Bruce Allen seven times a minute, Swingers-style -- "This is Mike ... I met you at the, uh, Dresden," -- until he picks up the phone and agrees to a deal for disgruntled Washington holdout Trent Williams. Whispers suggest Dolphins bookend Laremy Tunsil might also loom as potential trade bait. Make something happen -- or else.
you know, with Hubbard and Robinson as bookend tackles the last eight games last season it is no wonder baker got sacked and pressured so many times. It is a wonder he could get a pass off. .....oh wait, the last eight games our o line as a unit gave up the fewest sacks and the fewest pressures in the league. hmmm!! Who would have thunk it???
No you don't "need" a pro bowler at every position. But it does not hurt having one. The DL has three.
As the OL stands today. We have two guys in Tretter and Bitonio who we know are solid players.
The three guys mentioned Kush, Robinson, and Hubbard have history in the league. There is no sugar coating it. If they were all that great their history would reflect that.
How you and the locker room "feel" I am certain I have no impact on.
I posted an article by a national author that was on NFL Network site. This is a message board. People post stuff all the time.
You can agree or disagree with any article. I didn't write. I just posted it.
This is not about Baker versus the OL.
As Freddie said in his presser if you played on offense in the Bucs game you were are part of the problem.
Tretter in his presser acknowledged that they knew they played poorly. Not all on every play. When one fails it can make them all look bad.
I saw D. Harris miss blocks and wiff bad. I saw Kush miss.
Maybe they will correct it and all will be fine.
But I am not going to ignore what what I see.
Baker and the receivers that played were not in sync. It happens. Both could have done better. I saw four balls with great placement in tight coverage. The plays were not made. I am not placing the fault on one player.
IMO.. The offensive line can be improved.
I want to win. I think it helps when good players execute.
If we can get better on the OL with what we have,,, great.
If we need to upgrade a position and we can do it we should.
It was a BS article and our OL has performed just fine. Whatever man. I didn't think you would resort to that crap. Post away. But, I KNOW OL play and I am going to voice my opinion, because you know.........it's a message board.
Every single OL in the league gives up pressures and sacks. Our OL gives up far fewer of both than almost every other OL in the freaking league.
But, I can see this is going to be the narrative all freaking year long. It's putting a bad taste in my mouth about this team.
One person above everyone else is not something I embrace.
The OL did NOT play well against the Bucs...as bone noted...we have Bitonio and Tretter and some guys who might figure it out...they haven't yet figured it out.
You are also an expert on running backs, and receivers, and d line, and safetys, and cornerbacks, and tight ends. You played in h.s. You played in college - but we don't know WHERE in college, and you were a 'scout'.
And a jr. high teacher.
What college did you play at?
What school hired you to be a scout?
I appreciate some of your football talk.........but c'mon man, you ain't all that.
“We all know it as a group and to a man that that wasn’t good,” Tretter said.
“I think a lot of it is just get outside your fundamentals, you get outside your technique and things go poorly,” Tretter said. “And that’s kind of the tough thing about offensive line play. One guy makes a mistake, it kind of makes everything look bad. So I think all of us kind of had one or two plays that we wish we had back. That kind of just makes everything look a little sloppy. So we corrected the film and we will be much better off next time we’re out there.”
I previously stated that the run blocking was not good. I said that multiple times.
I also said that there were two plays where the OL got whupped.
I have said a lot more that you guys are ignoring. Such as:
--other than those two plays, the OL did a very good job in pass pro.
--all OLs give up pressure.
--all OLs struggle.
--compare our OL performance to Tampa Bay's.
--fans and local media unfairly judge their OLs because they see a pressure or two and it is "OMG, our OL sucks." Yet when our DL applies pressure, it's "Man, our DL is awesome." LOL
You can believe me, mock me, or perhaps consider my message when I say that this OL is not nearly as bad as you guys are saying it is. Again, it was ranked second overall by PFF last year and we lost one guy. A very good player for sure. But, do we go from second to 30th because of an interior linemen? Nah man........that ain't so. We might drop to 8th or 10th. But, that isn't good enough for the future HOF qb that is Baker Mayfield and the best skilled offensive group of talent the NFL has to offer?
And their pass pro has been damn near flawless. You might not realize this, but teams would kill to have an OL only give up two pressures in a half. I watched Miami play last week and their qbs were under immediate pressure on every freaking snap they took. How did Tampa Bay's OL look? Pressure happens, dude. QBs have to deal w/it.
Well, no matter how good they play.............I'm sure there will be folks who trash our OL every time they give up a sack or a pressure, because you know................that never happens to other teams who have such great OLs.
I just find something rather curious here. Almost everyone agrees that Baker had a poor outing. I mean it happens. But myself, along with others see it more as an anomaly. We saw him last year and know that he plays much better than that. We see it as an outlier and most are not concerned about it. At least that's where I and most others I've read stand on the issue.
So why are you treating our OT's differently? After Harrrison was removed and Robinson was the starter, out OT's performed up to snuff. No, they're not stellar tackles, but they did an above average job. They allowed few pressures and sacks during the second half of the season.
So why the double standard here? Now let's not play bait and switch about Zeitler being gone. Sure, the interior is a question mark in terms of the RG. But the tackles are the same.
I don't see why anyone could claim that Baker just "had a a bad outing" based on everything he had shown last year and then not use that same measurable in terms of out OT's. It certainly appears to be a double standard based on whose name it is.
Baker didn't look sharp. Our WR's were not getting separation and our OL looked bad. That's the entire O unit. They simply played very sluggish. Trying to claim that means doom and gloom for out OT's and giving other people a pass for a similar performance seems very disingenuous.
The offensive line is the weakest part of the team (besides kicker). Fans complain about the worst part of any team. We're just not used to the weakest part of the team being average instead of the worst in the league.
Last year stands on it's own. And when you look at the whole season it is not like our tackles are highly ranked against their peers.
This is what I wrote in Post Game thoughts after the Bucs game:
"The offense did not play well. Baker was not his usual accurate self. Receivers were covered pretty well but they didn't make plays that they could have. The OL was spotty. Robinson got beat often. Pass protection was ok. Run blocking not so much." =======================================================
The thread is about the Offensive Line Today.
The Bucs defense last year with McCoy ranked 27th.
Corbett was supposed to have earned the RG spot. He didn't. Kush was brought in as insurance and depth. Kush has 12 starts since 2013. So RG is not a settled position.
Hubbard and Robinson.
Hubbard until last year was a backup. He started 14 games in 4 years with the Steelers. He was signed as a free agent.
Robinson the second overall pick was traded to Detroit after 3 years with Rams and then was waived by the Lions.
How both tackles are ranked is a matter of record.
There is no double standard or bait and switch.
The Bucs game was pre season. I don't place a great deal of emphasis on that. Most OL are behind DL at this time of year.
At the same time let's not be confused who we have manning three positions of the OL.
At the same time let's not be confused who we have manning three positions of the OL.
Bingo. Greg Robinson had half a season of not being terrible when he's been among the worst offensive linemen in the league the rest of his career. Eric Kush is a journeymen. Chris Hubbard is an average linemen. The thing is you combine all that with Joel Bitonio and JT Tretter and what you get isn't bad, it's average. Average, for one of the weakest units on the team, is pretty good.
I am concerned about the offensive line. Am I "We just drafted 92 year old Brandon Weeden in the first round" concerned? No.
I trust Dorsey over guys on this message board. If he thinks the OL is fine.............well, that is fine by me.
Do we know Dorsey thinks the Oline is fine? For all we know he is working his butt off trying to improve it. Maybe not, he could be fine with the oline the way it is. Point is, we don't really know what Dorsey thinks.
The offensive line today has the same OT's that played in the last half of last season. Unless you are trying to hold the penalties Harrison continued to make in the first half of last season against "the offensive line of today"?
So you can't use all of last year to compare Robinson as a starter at LT.
As I said before, those two OT's did okay last year. Nothing you post can really change that.
As I said before, the only change is the RG and I agree that's still a big question mark. But let's not pretend we can call Baker's play against the Bucs an anomaly while yelling how the OT's from last year are suddenly trash when they too performed okay last year.
I didn't say he was good. Comprehension problems? I've said all along he was average.
And I've never said I didn't want Trent. I have said I wouldn't give up the farm for a 31 year old LT with an injury history. It's all about the price tag.
That brings up a good point about penalties: they killed us at times last year, especially from the OL. Kitchens has made it a point to improve in this area ... Robinson is a key candidate in this regard.
I'll be shocked if JD does not add an OL before Opening Day.
So will I?
Will you be shocked if he doesn't make a trade for Trent Williams or another guy to start?
I ask because that is what this argument is about. bonefish is on a crusade about it.
I think he's looking at options for RG. I will also be shocked if he gets Trent Williams. I'm not necessarily against TW, I just don't think it will happen.
IMO...he cannot be comfortable with Kush as a long term starter OR Corbett as the primary backup C. (I think Kush is the preferred backup at C.) I think there is much fire with the smoke over Forbes...but he's not ready yet...and we want to win now.
Vers talks about bone being on a crusade ... like vers isn’t on a crusade of his own ... *LOL* ...
I am on a bit of a crusade. I am defending the guys on the OL. One more time for guys like you who want to ignore it. PFF had them ranked as the second best group in the NFL last year. They provided Baker w/a ton of time to throw and some great sight lines.
Yes, we lost Zeitler and that is significant. But, losing one guy does not make you go from 2nd to 32nd. I think they are getting unfairly blasted. And that it the thing w/an OL...........they are easy to bash because their errors are so easy to see. Give up a sack or a pressure and people freak out.
Perhaps you remember when Charlie Frye was our QB? Or when Brandon Weeden was our QB. The media and many fans were saying how utterly terrible the OLs were, and then DA took over for Frye and Hoyer for Weeden and somehow, those two OLs looked great.
I have always contended that most fans and media members don't have a freaking clue when it comes to evaluating OL play.
I do like this kid. I think Kush is just a tad more experienced and makes the unit better at this moment but I would love to see this kid end up our RG by the end of the season and for years to come.
Keith the lack of Sacks is a fact from the last 8 games last season.
But I'm not quite sure the hurries were not there. Baker did a lot of Houdini moves from the broken pocket what was there was a solid front that didn't break down Bitonio, Tretter and Zeitler were like the BEST in the business I think. That is a big piece that left us. The missed pick of Corbett is hurting us...hopefuly just a hickup in the prowess of Dorsey on OL.
The retirement of Luck looms as a warning to all who pick a franchise QB...if you don't protect the kids they will become damaged goods!!!
We must draft solid RT, RG and try to do something with the LT position. I'm not sure if that would be in a Trent Williams move. He has been hurt a lot so I know all saying he is the solution I'm like yep if he is on the field of play..
Chubb improved on his blocking and I think we will be utlizing the H-back a lot, lets hope DeValve can pick up the blitz.
RG we can pick up in FA possibly even a RT. LT we got to get one from the draft 1st round.
We have a guy in Forbes who seems to be developing into the RG position. Frankly, I'm more worried about LT than RG although RG is still a concern for now. The situation may get better as the season progresses.
The offensive line is the weakest part of the team (besides kicker). Fans complain about the worst part of any team. We're just not used to the weakest part of the team being average instead of the worst in the league.
Totally agree on this FACT...the OL is the weakest positional group we got outside of maybe our SS group.
But we have Virtual Backups at both Tackle positions. We weakened the interior by trading Zeitler thinking we had an overall #33 pick ready to pick up the slack...that was a failure so must have to rely on another journey man that has more back up duties that starter.
So that are 3 suspects out of 5...60% of our OL is made up up Journeymen Backups. Of the likes of Browns team past as in 99-06 past...
I don't see a Tucker, a JoeT nor a Zeitler out there.
By far the weakest positional group we got and its scary cause we got a franchise QB and we have seen what happens when a franchise does not protect said QB. Do we want a LUCK here or a Manning who had an OL.
One of the only drop off position groups on this team.
Can we all agree that our OL is not as good as it could be?
Of course. However, that isn't what has fueled most of the OL conversation on two separate threads.
My contention that the OL is good enough because it would be too costly to upgrade it the way bonefish and others want to.
The talk is getting either Trent Williams or Laremy Tunsil.
The Redskins don't want to trade Williams. They would want a lot in return for him. It's been said that they would want a first round and more. He's 31 and has been injured a lot. He has a big contract and he wants even more money. He has also acted strangely while demanding this trade. I don't think he is worth the cost and I doubt Dorsey does, either.
Tunsil, the man most famous for his gas mask, would also be expensive. There is a report that Miami might trade him to Houston for Clowney. Are we going to give up Myles Garrett for Tunsil? I think not. I don't see Dorsey making a move like that.
Our OL has protected Baker very well. He has had huge sight lanes when throwing and when the first read is not open, the OL gave him a lot of time to throw. This OL is taking too much grief. And I already know that it will get worse because folks will rail against them every time they give up a sack. Because, you know, other teams never give up sacks and their qbs have all day to throw. [I am not directing that last comment towards you.]
I just checked again on Tunsil and appears the Dolphins are not willing to include Tunsil in a trade for Clowney. I'll post the link below. But, what does that tell you about the cost of the Browns trading for Tunsil?
Look, Dorsey has already spent a ton of money and I don't think he is going to make huge trades like trading for Tunsil or Williams this year. I don't think either trade would be in the best interests of the Browns future.
I don't disagree with you in principal. You should always be looking to make upgrades anywhere you can. I'm just not sure the upgrades you've been suggesting come at a "reasonable cost".
That's a very subjective term. I have little doubt that Dorsey will explore all options. I'm just not sure he will see eye to eye with you on what the term "reasonable cost" means.
Nobody would be happier than myself to see upgrades on the OL at the LT position especially. RG takes a lesser skill set and can possibly be upgraded at a much lesser price.
But the players it seems you have promoted, ( Williams, Tunsil ), I don't feel will be legitimate options due to being cost prohibitive.
Robinsons not average ... he was below average last year unless u wanna pretend the holding calls don’t matter ... so there ... *L*
No, they're not average if that's all you consider.
Not even sure what your trying to say here ... your making less sense than usual ... and lately u been really struggling .... this is another case of 0 + 0 = 3,224 ..
Ill make it simple for it ... if u have a hold a game ... no matter what else u do ... YOUR BELOW AVERAGE ...
Not sure what your issue is lately? But damn man.......all you do is mock others and you don't even offer football talk. You are the dude who coined the phrase "Stats are for losers. Yet, you use one stat to say our LT sucks and you refuse to acknowledge that our OL was ranked second overall by PFF last year.
Moving on................have there been reports that Dorsey is interested in trading for Tunsil or Williams? Both those guys would cost a fortune. They would not come at a "reasonable price."
I am all for upgrading the roster, but damn man, at some point, we need to practice fiscal responsibility. Contracts are going to appear on the horizon and we can't have an entire roster of elite players. It's not practical. Hell, we will probably not be able to keep all the guys we have now. Trading first round picks for the likes of T. Williams is pretty dumb in my estimation.
At some point, all of our superstars might have to actually justify the status that's been assigned to them.
In an effort to make it less risky transition to the practice squad, the Cleveland Browns may opt to hide offensive tackle Brian Fineanganofo against the Detroit Lions.
The Cleveland Browns preseason finale will feature a number of players trying to earn roster spots, but it's also worth keeping an eye on players who don't play or don't play much. The starters are unlikely to play at all in this game, but there may be players that are borderline the Browns don't want to showcase because they don't want other teams to see them; the idea being that other teams will be less likely to gamble and claim guys they haven't seen enough making it easier to get them to the practice squad.
One player that stands out for this could be Brian Fineanganofo, who has played less and less in each preseason game despite doing pretty well for himself. Now, some of this could be due to Freddie Kitchens being dissattisfied with his starters, particularly in the third preseason game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, but Fineanganofo's reps dropped as a result. The undrafted offensive tackle out of Idaho State has the size and athletic traits to be a good NFL tackle, looked capable in the opportunities he's had.
Fineanganofo is clearly still feeling things out in pass protection, but has gotten the job done. He's got a lot more work to do as a run blocker, but he's got the strength and movement skills to do it. If they can get him to the practice squad, they can work on his technique as he gets stronger in the weight room.
Based on his physical talent, he's got more potential than Desmond Harrison did. He's also younger. Fineanganofo has a lot of traits that would seemingly stand out to offensive line coach James Campen. If they suffer an injury, he might get the first call up to the roster. With a year, he might be able to develop into the swing tackle. Or more.
When it comes to discussions about eliminating preseason games or having more joint practices, this could be a big factor. There has been some suggestion about televising them, but that seems unlikely as teams don't want to give up anything they don't have to when it comes to plays, formations or having volume, so that can opponents might pick up some info. This is the other factor. Fewer preseason games could make it easier to hide guys and then sneak them onto the practice squad; great for teams, but not for players.
It would be great to get to see Fineanganofo get a half or a full game worth of reps, but if he doesn't or gets a conspicuously low number despite being able to play, it might be because they don't want anyone else to see him.
How old is that ranking as they had Corbett in at RG...its been quite a while since he is out of the picture there.
20th is just about right. Weren't we like #5 not too long ago?I get the defensive build up. But we have a Franchise QB...a FRANCHISE QB!!! we have to build an OL around him and our running game as well.
Hopefully Dorsey will put his full attention to the OL in the next off season and draft.
I'm pretty much done wasting my time with him. He screams stats are for losers then bases his entire premise on a single stat. I guess when he says stats are for losers he must be talking about himself.
You hit the nail on the head when stating the OL worked fine as a unit. Sure we could upgrade the LT position, but Diam makes it sound like Robinson sucks. He's not that bad .
What concerns me with the O-line is our run blocking. Last year we ranked 3rd in the league in pass blocking but only 16th in run blocking and we just replaced 1 of our better run blockers with a journeyman player in Kush, who while being a very good pass blocker has always graded out as a poor run blocker. What is going to happen when we are in a goal line or short yardage situation and we can't get any push to run for that 1 yard.
A couple things I've been thinking about lately regarding the offensive line. First, I'm sure it is an area of concern and the staff has a short list of talent from around the league that current coaches see as viable options. In other words - barring devastating injury, I'm not worried. There's probably also a short list of "project players" that we may take a gamble on. The Patriots did that today, adding Jermaine Eluemunor, huge upside but some recent conditioning, injury and (on the field) discipline concerns.
With that said, we're not going to improve the position by leaps and bounds without a huge trade. Not seeing that this year, unless the "devastating injury" bug rears it's ugly face... I would rather address the O-Line in the next draft or free agency than sacrifice any assets this year. This year, we've painted ourselves into the "make it work" corner.
Second, I don't think "making it work" is such a stretch, regardless of what people argue as far as "talent level" with the group we have now.
With the "chicken or the egg" arguments over a QB making a OL better, or vice versa, I think a lot of people ignore the "third head" of this monster -- scheme. Good scheme, good play-calling, an obvious improvement in the WR corps, and a second year QB who has already seen the game "slow down" for him, quiets a lot of the concerns, for me anyway.
I found this article and will post part of it here because it was clearly one of the factors that led to immediate success for Baker and the offense last year, particularly after Kitchens took over. It's a good read from start to finish, this is just a few points. It's from Jake Burns in week 16 of last season:
How the Browns offense is keeping the pocket clean for Baker Mayfield: Film Room
MAX PROTECTION
Under the leadership of Todd Haley, the Browns were often running out of "11" personnel (one running back, one tight end, three wide receivers).
This left them in a formation with three wide receivers -- a position of weakness early in the season -- far too often. It left the Browns vulnerable against pressure for Haley's long-developing route concepts.
Kitchens has made frequent use of the mass protection we see above, where the Browns love to move their back-side guard across the scheme to sell run action, only to see him kick out the rush end. This also allows them to down block off the snap to create better angles. It lends itself to several double teams at the point of attack.
This scheme has been the staple of the Browns' play-action look since Kitchens took over. It has produced some of the Browns' best downfield concepts.
RUNNING BACK OR TIGHT END CHIP
Since Kitchens took over the play calling, the Browns have often employed the tight end or running back chip to help out where they view a weakness in a match-up.
The Browns used it several times against Houston and Denver, and they did the same Sunday against the Bengals. Watch Duke Johnson chip the backside defensive end here. In doing so, it changes the rush course and slows down the quick upfield speed.
In simpler terms, it completely changes the rush approach for the defensive end and helps Robinson win his matchup. Seems simple enough.
The Browns have been wise to do this often over the second half of the schedule.
QUICK THROWS
The Browns have done a nice job improving their tempo since Week 9. Far too often, Haley was forcing the Browns' tackles to play on an island in schemes that were taking too long to develop.
One of the common answers from Mayfield when asked about Kitchens' impact on him as a play-caller has touched on "getting his eyes right." This means having your eyes in the exact place they need to be as a quarterback to deliver the ball on time and accurately.
On Sunday against Cincinnati, Kitchens and Mayfield did a nice job of aligning again.
When the Browns went with an empty backfield or four-receiver sets, Mayfield had the defense deciphered quickly, and knew right where to go with the football.
Things are easier on your offensive line when your quarterback has the ball out well before the rush ever becomes a factor.
What concerns me with the O-line is our run blocking. Last year we ranked 3rd in the league in pass blocking but only 16th in run blocking and we just replaced 1 of our better run blockers with a journeyman player in Kush, who while being a very good pass blocker has always graded out as a poor run blocker. What is going to happen when we are in a goal line or short yardage situation and we can't get any push to run for that 1 yard.
I agree.
To your last question: Forbes will replace Kush at the goal line and obvious short-yardage runs. IMO.
I’m not sure either ... but i don’t really care ...
Maybe CFR is in Pit’s camp that averaging one hold a game makes u average ... it is a brave new world ou there ... and it appears penalties don’t count in it ... *L* ....
but Diam makes it sound like Robinson sucks. He's not that bad .
Robinson was among the worst players in the league except for the games he played last season.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Does it matter how he was in the games he did not play?
I could have said that much better.
I meant that he was terrible the whole rest of his career and then was only good last year in a small sample size. The evidence would show that he is actually terrible.
I agree that we will probably try to upgrade a starter or two on the OL after the season in FA and/or the draft. I said earlier that I think we might try to improve our depth after the cuts this year. I think it would be dumb to make a huge trade for Williams or Tunsil.
I agree w/66 that the run blocking is a far greater concern than the pass blocking. I've said that a few times before.
I agree w/you that scheme is important. There was a significant difference between Haley and Freddie in regards to protection.
I do think some are championing this OL isn't good as a built-in excuse if Baker doesn't play well. As I said in earlier posts, the OL is an easy target for fans and media members when things go wrong.
I think using one stat in isolation to say a guy stinks is not very intelligent or sincere. Especially when the time isn't even taken to see if some of those holds came after Baker broke out of the pocket and was scrambling around outside of the tackle box.
I think it is absurd for people to say that the OL did not do a very good job of protecting Baker last year. I think it is fair to say he wouldn't have had such a good year had he played behind OLs like the Giants, Cardinals, Bills, Jets, Bucs, etc.
I would not mind us signing a big time FA next year and also drafting a guy fairly high. It would be nice to upgrade the unit, but I would not risk the future on making a big trade for a guy this year.
So diam, what you believe is that if our left tackle, going against some of the best pass rushers in the league, has one holding penalty per game and gives up zero sacks and zero pressures, you would find that unacceptable?? really??
last season in the last eight games we played two of the best pass rush combinations in the league. Von Miller+ Chubb and watt + mercilus + clowney. Do you remember how our oline fared in those two games. Surely against that level of pass rush our guys were just dominated. Multiple sacks and multiple pressures. Maybe?? You ought to look that information up and then tell me how much better it would have been if t. Williams was our left tackle and tunsil was our right tackle.
What I find odd is people putting more stock in some pff number than what we saw on the field the last eight games. Aren’t you one who stresses what you see with your eyes over “stats”?? Well look at our games and how our line performed as a unit. That is what counts.
All that said, if John and Freddie think we need to upgrade our oline and the price is right for them then I am all in. Looking forward to next Sunday!!
Cool ... we even got rotoworld setting up the OL in case Bake fails ... ...
WYATT TELLER G, CLEVELAND BROWNS
Browns acquired OG Wyatt Teller and a seventh-round pick from the Bills in exchange for fifth- and sixth-round picks.
The seventh-rounder is a 2021 selection, while the fifth- and sixth-round picks are in 2020. It's a rather desperate gambit from a team that knows it must improve its offensive line. The No. 166 overall pick of last year's draft, Teller was buried on the depth chart in Buffalo but played 475 (sub-replacement level) snaps as a rookie. The Cleveland Plain Dealer considers Teller a candidate to start at right guard over Eric Kush.
RELATED: Buffalo Bills SOURCE: Chris Brown on Twitter Aug 29, 2019, 4:08 PM ET
Kind of surprising a few days before cut downs. I’m sure they have a pretty good idea who’s going to hit the market league wide but there’s always surprises. I am glad that they’re actively trying to solve what I consider the biggest potential season killer problem with the OL and there’s still more work to be done. But this does seem a little desperation right before cuts.
Kind of surprising a few days before cut downs. I’m sure they have a pretty good idea who’s going to hit the market league wide but there’s always surprises. I am glad that they’re actively trying to solve what I consider the biggest potential season killer problem with the OL and there’s still more work to be done. But this does seem a little desperation right before cuts.
Vernon better play above average and contribute to some wins.
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns traded for Bills guard Wyatt Teller just hours before their preseason finale tonight against the Lions in an effort to shore up the shaky right guard spot.
They also received a 2021 seventh-round pick from Buffalo and gave up fifth- and sixth-round picks in 2020.
Teller, 24, becomes a top candidate to start on the right side, where he’ll try to replace Eric Kush.
"It gives us some depth at the position,'' Browns GM John Dorsey said at halftime of the game on News 5. "He started seven games in the NFL. He’s a younger guy and he has some upside. I liked him in college and you can’t have enough good football players.''
The position has been an area of concern all offseason and preseason, especially considering 2018 No. 33 overall pick Austin Corbett failed to win the job.
Teller (6-4, 315) was originally drafted by Buffalo in the fifth round of the 2018 draft out of Virginia Tech. He started the Bills’ final seven regular-season games last year at left guard. But the Bills overhauled their offensive line in the offseason, acquiring 11 new bodies in the free agency in the draft to help protect second-year quarterback Josh Allen.
As the preseason wore on, Teller found himself slipping behind Quinton Spain, Spencer Long, and Jon Feliciano on the depth chart. Although he had a solid preseason, speculation out of Buffalo was that Teller might have a hard time surving roster cuts on Saturday.
“You’re never entitled,” Teller told the Buffalo News as the Bills wrapped up mandatory minicamp in June. "You never expect anything, you have to earn every piece of the pie. You would like to think, ‘Hey, they brought me in for a reason.’ But they also brought those guys in for a reason. That’s the name of the game.
“I mean, yeah, I’m young, but I’m starting to get it a little bit that it’s easy to be entitled and to lose that the mindset of staying hungry and attacking each day, because each day is important. Each day is trying to get the best five, trying to find consistency, continuity, stuff like that. Which five work best together? We have great players out there and it’s cool to see everybody working together and new faces and a melting pot.”
On Tuesday, Kush -- who’s been given the first crack at starting at right guard -- was determined to hang onto the job.
“I just do what I’m told,'' he said. "Every day, I come here to practice, work my butt off to try and improve something, do what I’m told and have as much fun as I can while I’m doing it, playing this great game and trying to get better every day.”
He said he was pleased with his tape from the Bucs game.
“I saw a lot good stuff, some great stuff out there and then some stuff to improve on that we were working out there and we were working the day before,'' he said. "We’re going to continue to work on it.”
The Browns currently own their own picks in rounds 1-4 and round 7 of the 2020 draft.
Cleveland also has Arizona’s sixth-round pick (DB Jamar Taylor trade), Buffalo’s seventh-round pick (WR Corey Coleman trade) and a conditional pick from Houston (RB Duke Johnson Jr. trade).
In the 2021 draft, which will be held in Cleveland, the Browns hold their own picks in rounds 1-7 and the Bills’ seventh-round pick from this trade.
Here is a summary of the Browns’ current picks in the 2020 and 2021 NFL drafts.
I wasn't arguing that Pete's info was wrong. I just found it funny as hell that he writes an article letting the world know that the Browns are trying to hide a guy so they can put him on the PS.
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