I was reading another thread and a unit was being criticized because some of the dudes on it were only average. This led me to think about how a poster has negatively critiqued Landry's stats. Both of these things got me to wondering about Baker's stats. So, I did a quick look. Here are some interesting--and relevant--ones.
Haven't those stats been posted on here over and over? Those stats were not given on the site I went to. I just posted the ones that were most relevant to good qb play.
Btw---did you question the stats on Landry and/or say you just hopes he balls out this year? Must we have different rules and criteria for different players?
I will also add that I believe he was 2nd in plus level throws. In the entire league. I don't recall where I read that from or how it's measured but throughout the season I frequently commented on his plus level throws. Throws that a professional QB should make but maybe only half do.
As for Landry I've stated my opinion that I don't care about his contract. And I don't think anyone should. He's a very good player, and we should be happy to have good players. Let the team worry about his contract.
Is that acceptable? Or would you like me to start a thread disparaging Memphis and device?
These stats aren't really that interesting - about what I expected. Anyone with two eyeballs also watched him improve by leaps and bounds as the season progressed. Is this all because a few posters thought the OL could use some improvement? Geesh.
Thanks. I’m on my phone and I have a hard time looking up stats.
As far as the Landry stats... I have no idea what they even mean. I did understand one stat, completion %. That is deceiving because that includes all balls that are thrown towards a receiver, even balls that are purposely thrown away.
I didn’t post on that thread because it was nothing more than a pissing match between two sides.
I’ve rewatched a few games the past few days while I was bored ... and at times Baker looks phenomenal. There was a stretch in the Carolina game where he was an incredible QB ... there was a time in the 2nd half against Houston where he was unstoppable ... he looked good against Cincy, against Atlanta, at times against NYJ and Pitt, etc
BUT I do think he struggled at times when teams got pressure and jumped routes. Like what the Chargers did
Times hit and or sacked in those 8 games was insane at like 9 times.
Not sure what the OP is trying to show. He KNOWS the difference between Haley and Kitchens. And it's what's got everyone looking forward to a bright future for Mayfield and this team.
No, it was not my intention to have you guys get on my case for posting factual stats, but I should have expected it. Sometimes I forget that we can only be critical or objective w/certain players and that other players are off limits.
Baker isn't perfect - I think we all hope he improves. As has been pointed out the difference in "factual stats" between play calling under Haley and Kitchens is enormous.
However with all that said - the only stats that would actually be fair to Baker, would be to compare him to other Rookie QB's. Anything other than that is asinine to me because of what a huge learning curve there is for rookie QB's in the NFL. jmo
Why dwell on rookie numbers. Better than many expected. Rookie, partial season. What did one expect? We got more wins than I expected, improved more with Huey gone than I anticipated, and won fewer games than we should have.
Raise the bar for this season. Sic the Elf-hounds on 'em!
It would be far too hard to go back and adjust each catagory listed for b4 and after Haley/Kitchens ... but the completion difference is easy to figure:
Haley - Baker drps to 32nd on the list. Kitchens - Baker rises to 2nd on the list.
That demonstrates the complexity of trying to judge Baker purely on stats .... Vs every other rookie QB he is top in each category even with the lopsided and negative impact of Haley's play calling.
That demonstrates the complexity of trying to judge Baker purely on stats
I think one can make a pretty good diagnosis of a player based on many stats and data points. But in this case, generally speaking, I think it is just too small of a sample size for anything definitive. But there are surely reasons to be very optimistic about an upward trajectory.
Haven't those stats been posted on here over and over? Those stats were not given on the site I went to. I just posted the ones that were most relevant to good qb play.
Btw---did you question the stats on Landry and/or say you just hopes he balls out this year? Must we have different rules and criteria for different players?
If I may, I'd like to point out a few things that may have contributed.. I'll let you all decide if it was a positive or negative contribution.
When he (baker) took over, there was what appeared to be a war of personalities going on between Jackson and Haley (and perhaps others, not sure)
Unrest isn't the best of situations especially for a rookie QB. Baker handled it and there is no stat for that.
Wins and Losses were better under Baker but really got better once the switch at HC and OC were made. I don't think that is even close to questionable.
The TD record for a Rookie was actually set in 13 games, not 16 like those that held the record.
I'm not sure how to quantify how Baker made his teammates (and fans) feel.. not sure that is even possible. But I do know this, when he steps on the field, Stats be damned, the feeling that he can take us to a win at any time is pretty much overwhelming.. Especially to fans that have been hungry for a LONG TIME... And there is no stat for that.
When you put up stats, you gotta put them all up,, even if you don't want to see them anymore or if you just feel they've been talked about enough.. If you don't, the appearance is that you are simply trying to hide or diminish all that Baker's performances have encompassed..
Just saying...
All of that from a rookie that wasn't supposed to even start a game in 2018. Makes me wonder, what if he'd been given control from day one?
Would he have put up another 3 or 4 TD's, would some of those stats you pointed out be better or would that have gotten worse? Don't know.
I'm not trying to pick on you Vers, but you can't decide something isn't worth repeating just because you've heard or read it a million times.. Otherwise, you paint an incomplete picture...
OK,, now start your rant telling me how big a jerk I am... I'm ready, willing and able to take your assault...
Or, you could just say,, ok,, you are right Daman... LOL as if.
Those are useful stats and it sure beats arguments that use words like "asinine" or question another poster's character.
I will say that the record books are not going to change. I will also add that we played the Bengals [who had a horrific defense] twice, Denver who was playing 3 safeties at corner, and an injured Falcon team. Also, we were getting blown out by KC and Houston and some of the stats might be inflated.
I was just curious because I saw the word "average" being used in a negative way and it made me wonder how Baker compared to other qbs.
With that said, he should light it up this year because I don't think any qb has as much offensive talent to work with as he does.
No, it was not my intention to have you guys get on my case for posting factual stats, but I should have expected it. Sometimes I forget that we can only be critical or objective w/certain players and that other players are off limits.
For the record, I wasn't getting on your case. I didn't read the bit about Landrys stats, so I don't really know what the fuss is about. I just know that is one take. I don't know if Landry is overpaid or not, and don't really care as long as it works in to the overall cap.
I just know I am glad we have the guy. Too many years with guys like Darren Chevarini and Quincy "no thumbs" Morgan make me feel that way.
4500 yds, 38 TDs and even with 16 INTs (which he won't even get close to) I'd say that's a nice season. We'll go places with this guy.
Not quibbling with you, but stat wise you're off....
Mayfield 2018 season: 3,700 yds, 27 TDs/14 INT
I think he is speculating on next year's performance.
Oh. Ok. If so, that wasn't clear as Vers' question is about last year's stats.
Those numbers are Baker's second half stats x 2. He's just extrapolating Baker's numbers, once Huey and Toad were gone, to show what they would like like over a full season.
Those numbers are Baker's second half stats x 2. He's just extrapolating Baker's numbers, once Huey and Toad were gone, to show what they would like like over a full season.
We can speak about "the record books" all we like. But the stark contrast between the first half of the season and the second half of the season speak for themselves.
First, Baker had zero reps with the ones. He came in as a rookies with no time spent working with the ones. That's a huge handicap in itself.
Obviously Freddie set a game plan that was far better suited to Bakers skill set.
When you compare a rookie QB under those conditions to every QB in the league, you know as well as I do that's not really a fair comparison. Rookie QB's progress as time goes along. The progress between the first half of the season and the second half of the season speaks volumes.
If you don't like the word asinine, substitute pointless. As has been pointed out in my posts and others, there's multiple reasons that posting Baker's stats vs all the veterans and without taking into account the coaching Dynamics simply puts an overly negative spin on his play. Maybe that was just an oversight? Given that you said you were deliberately trying to come up a with a negative counter to a Laundry discussion it seems you went looking for stats to make Baker look average? Either way, there's lots of good insight into Baker's performance.... I just hope he can stay close to his performances under Kitchens, I actually don't expect him to perform that well over all 16 games.
I've tried to tell you this before, but I am not going to get into it w/you. You refuse to play fair and always have to throw biting words around and make things personal. Thus, I have to assume your posts to me are just an attempt to get others to join in and shout down my opinions. That's fine, but again.........I am not going to debate w/you until you learn how to debate fairly.
I would have preferred to put this in a PM so the board wouldn't have to be bogged down by our spat, but you have insisted that I not do so.
There are a lot of Miss Cleo's on this board. Here is some friendly advice to all you mind readers. It might behoove you to concentrate on your own line of thinking, because there are some gaps that need filled in.
The Browns players also commented on how Freddie asked the various offensive units what types of plays they were most comfortable with, and then they actually started running them. Simple concept, but a great way to put players in the best position to succeed, and also to get them to buy in.
We also ran a lot more mixed protections, and even max protects under Freddie. He also called a lot of different, creative plays. (like the wishbone)
I think that Freddie showed confidence in his offense, and they showed confidence in him in return. I get the feeling that Haley wanted to run plays, no matter how well the team could run them. Freddie ran plays the team could run well. Huge difference, and I suspect that if Freddie had been the OC from game 1, along with Baker getting the job from game 1, we would made the playoffs.
4500 yds, 38 TDs and even with 16 INTs (which he won't even get close to) I'd say that's a nice season. We'll go places with this guy.
Not quibbling with you, but stat wise you're off....
Mayfield 2018 season: 3,700 yds, 27 TDs/14 INT
I think he is speculating on next year's performance.
Oh. Ok. If so, that wasn't clear as Vers' question is about last year's stats.
Those numbers are Baker's second half stats x 2. He's just extrapolating Baker's numbers, once Huey and Toad were gone, to show what they would like like over a full season.
I think confidence and trust is a big part of it. I don't think the team trusted or were confident in Hue from about the mid point of the previous season.
4500 yds, 38 TDs and even with 16 INTs (which he won't even get close to) I'd say that's a nice season. We'll go places with this guy.
Not quibbling with you, but stat wise you're off....
Mayfield 2018 season: 3,700 yds, 27 TDs/14 INT
I think he is speculating on next year's performance.
Oh. Ok. If so, that wasn't clear as Vers' question is about last year's stats.
Those numbers are Baker's second half stats x 2. He's just extrapolating Baker's numbers, once Huey and Toad were gone, to show what they would like like over a full season.
Aaaaah, got it. Thanks!
Do i need to start taking applications bro ... can’t ahve my bartender slipping .... *L* ...
What u think barkeep ... almost time for a PARADISE ISLAND THREAD ... i been ready for awhile now ... what u say bro ...
But you're getting just what you wanted. You knew exactly what the reaction woud be when you posted this.
Someone tell me..what the hell is this thread about?
I know about Baker's stats for his screwed up rookie season where the Browns had 2 OCs and 2 HCs...
Who the hell is this "Landry" and what does he have to do with Baker Mayfield?
Someone clue me in on what this thread is about...please?
Vers posted up Baker stats that he knew some people would disagree in retort to some stats about Landry someone posted which Vers had a disagreement....or something like that.
When the OP drops a Landry comparison after starting the thread only 20 minutes prior and only needing one other person commenting on the subject matter to do so, it's not hard to pinpoint thread intent.
Some people like stats...some do not...I do. I don't expect these will settle any differences other posters have raised in this thread. Just my two cents...
I compared Baker's full season stats vs. all QBs who started (approx) half (or more) of the teams games (Flacco started 9 games, Jackson started 7; Winston started 9 games, Fitzpatrick started 7 so I included 34 "starters").
Because improvement over the course of the season was important to me I also calculated, as best I could, Baker's stats from his last 8 games (when Kitchen was the HC) vs. the full year for the competition (yeah, apples and oranges, I know)
QB Record % (Games Won/Games Started--I counted a tie as a half win)
Baker (all games) 46.2% 16th of 34 Baker (last 8 games) 62.5% 9th (tie) of 34
Completion %
Baker (all games) 63.8% 24th of 34 Baker (last 8 games) 68.4% 7th (tie) of 34
TD %
Baker (all games) 5.6% 11th of 34 Baker (last 8 games) 7.2% 3rd of 34
Int %
Baker (all games) 2.9% 26th of 34 Baker (last 8 games) 3.0% 26th of 34
No improvement here
QB Rating (I used the traditional NFL rating only since the ESPN rating has a proprietary methodology involving 10,000+ lines of code!!!)
Baker (all games) 93.7 19th of 34 Baker (last 8 games) 106.2 5th of 34
Yds/Att
Baker (all games) 7.7 11th (tie) of 34 Baker (last 8 games) 8.6 3rd of 34
My conclusion? Baker improved his performance when Kitchen was the HC, but I think most would agree with that opinion without needing all these stats.
I see your breakdown as the proper way to evaluate a rookie QB. The most important factor with a rookie QB is how he improved over the course of his rookie year.
No, it was not my intention to have you guys get on my case for posting factual stats, but I should have expected it. Sometimes I forget that we can only be critical or objective w/certain players and that other players are off limits.
I read the thread before this post and don't see where anybody was getting on your case. ?????
V Dog, you've posted a gazillion posts and know lot more football than me, JMHO, you could have posted pre/post Haley stats but chose not to....you like to stir the pot...Baker's a good young player, we should remember all of them are one play away from being sidelined for significant time....glad our GM has gotten decent backups for almost every position.....love Baker's drive to be better...he's a Heisman winner who works instead of partying.....GO Browns!!!!
Nice post. Sure beats the posts from the people who simply insult others.
I am wondering if it's fair to ask the question if Baker is a system QB? Todd Haley had success as a game planner and play caller in Pittsburgh, KC, and Arizona.
I also wonder if having success in one offense but not another offense that has been successful if that means teams might be able to develop game plans now that they have some tape on what the Browns did well?
Those thoughts might be asinine, feeble, stupid, pointless, and some might focus on intent rather than a real discussion, but I'm throwing them out there anyway.
Many a great NFL quarterback has been a system QB. Tom Brady, Montana, Brees, Fouts, hoards of em. You know that.
DCs will game plan for Bake, it's how we respond. I think we respond with aggressiveness on O, considering our talent, and considering our QB's makeup, both skill-wise and personality-wise.
Timmy, Charlie, Brady, Cody, Kelly and Johnny: they aren't here anymore. Baker Mayfield is. He will be fine.
haley??? I wasn't even thinking about him lol. Moving the goal posts there??? Lol...,
You saying Brady isn't a system QB? Or Montana? You know a lot more about football than me, but I've always been under the impression that they are. The phrase can encompass a lot of offences I suppose, and some QBs are just a fit anywhere, but Montana was a lot more successful in the 49er offence then he may have been in the air coryell attack. JMHO of course....
haley??? I wasn't even thinking about him lol. Moving the goal posts there??? Lol...,
Moving the goal posts? Bro, you replied to my post that contained the following quote.
Quote:
I am wondering if it's fair to ask the question if Baker is a system QB? Todd Haley had success as a game planner and play caller in Pittsburgh, KC, and Arizona.
Perhaps in your rush to defend Baker and dismiss my opinion, you missed that quote? But, I didn't move jack.
And no, I don't think any of the guys you mentioned are system qbs.
Again, I am not saying Baker is either. However, a lot of folks are talking about the difference in how he played under Haley and how he played under Freddie. They are right and I have never said otherwise.
However, Haley did have success w/other qbs in other places. Thus, I think my questions were fair. They were not proclamations. They were questions.
I've tried to tell you this before, but I am not going to get into it w/you. You refuse to play fair and always have to throw biting words around and make things personal. Thus, I have to assume your posts to me are just an attempt to get others to join in and shout down my opinions. That's fine, but again.........I am not going to debate w/you until you learn how to debate fairly.
I would have preferred to put this in a PM so the board wouldn't have to be bogged down by our spat, but you have insisted that I not do so.
There is no spat or agenda to have posters join in. That's purely in your imagination. It's a football board. You posted something and I commented on it. You took umbrage with a word I used and avoided responding to the context of my posts except to say I didn't discuss "fairly". In the next post (or the preceding post) you quoted but totally misrepresented a line from a post from Pit. smh.
As someone else alluded to and then changed tack - I think you're smart and knew exactly what would happen when you deliberately tried to cherry pick stats to make Baker look average or bad in your attempt to counter points made in Landry thread. jmo
Why dwell on rookie numbers. Better than many expected. Rookie, partial season. What did one expect? We got more wins than I expected, improved more with Huey gone than I anticipated, and won fewer games than we should have.
Raise the bar for this season. Sic the Elf-hounds on 'em!
Rookie QB's who have never played an NFL down before improve as time goes on.
So you're basing your question if a rookie QB is a system QB based on including his first five starts without breaking down their improvement over the course of his rookie season?
And also basing that question on the assumption that Freddie managed to create the perfect system for Baker based on his first four or five starts?
As I've said before, you seem to be ignoring the obvious here. Improvement with playing time. The very gauge by which all rookie QB's are judged. And also the fact this team had zero confidence in Hue.
I mean if you're actually going to look at what happened, you can't judge it all on raw stats. It's something you've known for years and suddenly seemed to have forgotten? I don't think so.....
As for the first half of last season, I don't think the players bought in and I don't think the powers that be at the head of the coaching group were on the same page, especially Hue and Haley. I don't think Williams had many problem with Hue because he ran his own show on D. Hue and Haley might have hated each other. That marriage was never going to work.
You are right Vers...Baker just isn't that good...
A better view of assessing Baker would be those "STATS" for Baker in the last 8 games under Kitchens rather than Haley...
Also as far as completion percentage Baker totally threw a better more accurate ball than Tyrod but I was amazed that the drops still continued. Tyron would be a throw well behind the WR who would get his hands on it but not catch it. Baker would put it right at the numbers and they would drop it.
I tried to logically find a reason for this...the only one I could come up with is Haley looked like a WCO type of routes short routes and that most receivers were punch drunk on getting hit so much right after getting the ball thrown to them that when Baker came on the ball was more accurate but the mental flinch was there.
Also in reflecting on Baker the last two seasons we had some pretty useful Rookie QBs...2017 and 2018...a better assessment of Baker would have had his rankings in those areas with the rookie Starting QBs of 2017 along with the 2018 ones. Which we can better be EXCITED about our Franchise QB rather than the obvious oh so obvious attempt by you to put down this QB any which way...smh
You are right Vers...Baker just isn't that good...
Yes, that is what he said.
Well if you read the board that is what he has steadfastly implied since we drafted him...and these stats brought up are to do what? Imply what? how average he is? But that is all you read from me right? I know poor Vers always the victim...lol
I said his stats after Kitchens took over better define him. I said instead of ranking him vs all the NFL to EVALUATE what kind of Average QB we got how bout rate those numbers against all the rookie QBs who started in 2017 and 2018...where does he stand?
Just what did those stats imply Cap....what did you come away with after being enlightened with those stats. What was the purpose. Vers pretty much hates Baker...he has said he will swallow his pride and grace us with rooting for him cause he is a Brown. He continues to scroll the internet for any negative assessment on Baker...not cause he is a big Browns' fan but pretty much to back his negative remarks on him. So yes, if you follow the board that is exactly what he is saying...that according to the stats Baker is just Average at best.
I was reading another thread and a unit was being criticized because some of the dudes on it were only average. This led me to think about how a poster has negatively critiqued Landry's stats. Both of these things got me to wondering about Baker's stats. So, I did a quick look. Here are some interesting--and relevant--ones.
I do want to add that I included some of Baker's positive stats, much unlike the stats that were provided for Landry.
I think some false pictures are being painted about just how well certain members and units of our team performed last year.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I forgot to add an important one.
Yards per Attempt: 12th [Decent]
To me, these stats are actually pretty amazing. Put it in context. The team had won 1 game in its last 34+. There was infighting between the coaches which we'd find out later. Offensive line wasn't giving enough time, receivers couldn't run routes or catch balls because they were always being let out of practice, team was down 0-10 in the game, and so on.
To be able to come into that situation, as a rookie, without having gotten any first team reps, is pretty daunting. It's incredible he did as well as he did. Ditto with being roughly middle-of-the-road in traditional stats during that season (which improved immensely once we got a couple coaches in there who knew what they were doing.)
And those yearly stats never will....but along the stats for losers theme....5-2 for team which had gone 1-gazillion. Rookie record for TDs in how many games....stats for losers...JMHO, I didn't want the run from cops jerk, but HE'S a WINNER....go Browns!!!!
