We are asking ourselves if John Dorsey made
The right call as making Kitchens the Browns
HC.
my question is before this season,
What did Kitchens accomplish that was so great
Or what stood out the most
On his resume?
He is the 1st coach that I know of
That has not been a HC at any level before this
Year.
If a team truly wants to be a legit playoff contender for years and beyond can you
Chance it on a HC that is basically learn
This position at the highest level?

I bet razor blade sales are through the roof with all this wrist slitting after one game.

I didn't like Freddie being hired as head coach at first and until the end of the season the jury is out on his ability to do the job, but give the guy a chance to fix yesterday's issues before you hang him out to dry. smh

and here we go - 1 game and let's run Freddie out of town. You people never cease to amaze me.

Im not ready to run him out of town. that would be counter productive simply because im tired of starting over.

I said it all offseason, and i'll say it again:

"the Browns made a mistake not promoting and keeping Greg Williams as HC" Every other team in the league would have retained Williams after that stint as interim head coach with how awful we had been.

The only reason Williams wasn't kept was because of Dorsey's insecurity. He knew if he kept Williams, that Williams, because he is winning, would have a bit more say with ownership than he liked and he figured he would get pushed out like another good coach by the name of Andy Reid did in KC. I don't think Williams would have tried to push Dorsey out, but Dorsey is a very insecure man.

It was very very obvious that Greg Williams learned from his mistakes from being a head coach before with the Bills. This is why he was able to be successful here. Williams was the cog in the wheel that made things turn around here last year, not Kitchens.

Williams would have retained most of the staff here including Kitchens and Ken Zampese. Dorsey instead blew everything up because were learning a whole new O and D system with a bunch of new coaches..its going to be a long year.

A Greg Williams HC Browns yesterday doesn't commit a record of penalties like we did yesterday.

Its my hope Kitchens can grow into the position because we are stuck with him now, but he won't begin to do that until he relinquishes his play calling duties to the OC. He needs to hand the play calling over to Monken and focus being a head coach and instilling a sense of discipline, pride, and winning in the hearts of these players...not the complete unruly out of control wheels falling off nonsense we saw yesterday...

Wow.

Conjecture, conspiracy theory, wild opinion and brash rush-to-judgement. I nearly stopped after the comparison of Gregg Williams to Andy Ried, I only finished because there were still three Fritos left on my plate.

"Dorsey is a very insecure man" lmbo

Nobody realizes he was outcoached and outclassed more than himself. He'll look in the mirror and say, "Unacceptable ".

This team will buckle down now and play so.e football.

I rarely ever notice a football game in terms of “this team outcoached that team” ... at least not during the actually game. But yesterday was different; they were legit running circles around us.

Not to say Freddie is a bad coach or won’t turn out to be a good hire; but yesterday was NOT good

We are? ... speak for yourself ... I’m not ...

I’m gonna go ahead and give him two games ... maybe even a few more after that cause i’m a wild and crazy dude ....

[quote=OldColdDawg]I bet razor blade sales are through the roof with all this wrist slitting after one game.

I didn't like Freddie being hired as head coach at first and until the end of the season the jury is out on his ability to do the job, but give the guy a chance to fix yesterday's issues before you hang him out to dry. smh [/quote

I'm definitely not in the "run Freddie out of town" crowd as I think that is pretty extreme.

But I think most everything just short of that is justified.

A LOT of trust has been put in to Freddie this off season.
-when OBJ hadn't shown up to voluntary workouts, he said that was just OBJ doing what works for him (and fair enough, I don't think OBJ was any of our problem last Sunday)
-when this team was going all 'try hard' at the Colts practices, we trusted that this team was just trying to cut it's teeth
-when the starting D-Line only played one series in 4 pre-season games...
-When our complete starting O didn't play at all through 4 games of pre-season...

and all the other little things that seemed a little odd, but were looked over because people were willing to trust that he had a plan...

For the team to come out and play the way it did... with ZERO half time adjustments of consequence? I think it's totally justifiable to wonder just what the heck had they been doing the last few months.

Yes, Freddie absolutely deserves the opportunity to fix things this week. But the lack of preparedness, discipline, composure... and lack of respect for themselves as professionals didn't just happen in the pre-game walk through.

I LOVE Baker and I think he's the future, but he needs to grow up and get rid of this "chip on the shoulder" crap. This team needs to stop with the "targets on our back", "us against everyone" drivel. On Sunday, their opponents don't give a crap about who the Browns think they are.

Grow up... learn your craft, learn how to be a professional. The rest.. the W's, the accolades, the respect...will follow.

Freddie

Don't worry man. It's just message board crap.

I think last year the Pats lost a few games early and Belicheck said something to the effect...teams don't lose the Championship in game 3 of the season.

It was a bad loss. We may have lost anyway. The Titans are a solid team.

We went 1 and whatever under Hue....we can deal with 0-1 at this point.

I never once said fire Kitchens.
I simply asked what is so glowing on his resume before
He got the Browns job as HC.
Most head coaches had a measure of success at some kind
Of coaching on their proverbial ladder to head coach
Was he truly the best candidate.?

I don't know what your intentions are but asking the question after yesterday makes it seem like you don't like/want the head coach. You can see how that would happen right? If we had won yesterday would this thread have been started?

They are. Those questions would have been asked when he was hired. Not after a week 1 loss.

Just pass over his comments.

The fact that I have yet to get a precise answer
Is intriqing.

what was glowing is how he turned the offense around. Greg Williams turned the team around. However, Baker wanted his buddy boy to be the HC. GW out and FK in.

Like I said, you area little late to the dance.

My question is why question the Kitchens hire months after the fact?
We lost a game.

I agree, the game sucked. I was there and just got home after a 10 hour drive a 3 hours ago.

I think when a team loses by 30 at home nobody is immune
From any question.especially a home opener.
Only the Dolphins took a worse beatdown.
And they got Sashi 2.0 running that front office.

Every head coach the Browns have had since
Has been in over his head.
The job was too big for them.

I'm just asking what qualified FK to be HC.

Did you look at my link? The man has credentials.

Easy to lay blame, difficult to give credit. The Titans beat us. Deal with it.

I have questioned Freddie's credentials long before yesterday's game. A lot of people across the country have. Hell, I remember when posters got irritated w/me because I said I would wait to evaluate him until I see him a HC because he has never been a HC before. Phrases like "Freddie is Ready" were premature.

With that said, I am not saying he is a bad coach. He may end up being a good HC. However, his resume isn't the type of resume that typically results in getting a HC gig. I wish the guy all the luck in the world and I'll probably have to start defending him sooner rather than later.

Well see how long everyone defends him if 10+ penalty games becomes consistent this season.

I certainly hope not, but that level of undisciplined play is something I’ve never seen before, and I’m not encouraged.

I have this feeling if Kitchens doesn't get the Browns to the playoffs
This year then he's one and done
Dorsey made off season moves that had him aiming for playoffs and beyond
I'm just surprised Dorsey would roll the dice on a hire that's never
Even been a college or high school head coach.
If the Browns make the playoffs I can't see FK out coaching a Reid or Tomlin.

J/c

I’d never call for a guy’s head this early (and probably not for this entire year) ... but he did not have the same resume as other candidates I’m sure and he’s not the typical hire in the NFL.

Not saying it can’t work, but it’s not going to be easy (as we’ve seen already). My fear is that we lose the next couple and things get dicey

September 9th 2019. Mark it down.

Panic is in the DNA of this fan base.

I wanted to keep Williams as head coach, we were 5-3 and almost knocked the Ravens out of the playoffs in thier own house. We had attitude, discipline, pride and hope. We had good coaches in place who could have all probably been retained. It wasn't broken..why fix it. WHY??

Because Gregg Williams is the douchiest douche of them all?

It's not panic, we've just seen this movie before. A head coach who is soft on his players, tries to take on coaching duties and playcalling biting off more than they can chew. Fields and undisciplined penalty ridden team. Freddie Jackson anyone? Except I will say I think Hue's team played harder for him than Freddies did and really worries me. We lose to the Jets next week the wheels are really going to start to fall off. Think Gregg Willaims has this game circled on his schedule??? LoL

But he was the first winning coach this team had in how many years?

The Browns might have enough talent on this team to advance to
The playoffs in spite of FK severe inexperience as a HC.

Does him being inexperienced make him a poor choice for the job?

We don't have enough data to support either way.

How was Greg Williams a douche?

And what? Being a good interim coach and being a good long term coach is not the same thing.

Have you ever heard him speak?

Name the last good long term coach we had.

Not Gregg Williams. I believe he coaches for the Jets now as their defensive coordinator. He did such a great job with us that he got a token interview and a lateral move to the Jets.

Was he an effective coach? Or do you only grade coaches on their pressers?

J/K ..... the Colts started 1-5 last year before putting it all together to finish at 10-6, and a playoff berth, winning the WC game before losing in the divisional round.

Do effective coaches bounce from team to team every two years because they are fired? What was our defense’s ranking under the tutelage of Gregg Williams?

Back to the topic at hand:

Questioning the viability of any NFL coach after they have coached only one NFL game is ludicrous and only brought up because people are irrational when discussing a team that they love.

Well, Williams was in interim coach. He was the DC for the Saints when they won the Superbowl.

But, by all means please do enlighten us with how you feel he is an unqualifed douche? Because your opinon is somehow better than the people who hired him?

Yes...and I love it! We could have used it yesterday.

I think that is unfair. He has a lot of respect in the NFL. He never has a problem getting a job, and I'll hold off on my I "Told You Sos" for now.

I wish we could have kept him.

Paul Brown.


Marty Shottenheimer comes in 2nd- at 5 years tenure.
Art Modell began, developed and nurtured the "3-yr Turnaround" culture that has been CLE football culture for 50 years.

Ludicrous is expecting his head to roll after Week 1... but questioning his viability is absolutely warranted. Its not like we lost a close one. I don't really care that the final score "doesn't really reflect the game" because it only gets run up like that when one of the teams gives up and rolls over, they choose not to finish the game. That's problematic all its own.

The Titans had THE most basic game plan and execution you could bring to a regular season game. If the Browns had executed even to 3/4 of what our roster is capable of, we would have had a commanding win.

Play calling and scheme aside... we didn't see anything that resembled what we saw the last half of last year. There was no confidence, there was no fight. There was no swagger and daring to make a big play.

This team was mentally and emotionally weak.

I'm not going to predict Freddie's future but he convinced a lot of people he can drive. Now Dorsey has tossed him the keys of a high end sports car with this roster. They won't keep him around another season just to blow the engine if he can't show he knows how to work a manual clutch.

Dumb thead. Good grief, trigger much?

Exactly my first thought... Geez...

I kinda find it hilariously sad how literally after one game people are questioning the hiring of Kitchens and I have even seen some "fans" say we should have taken Darnold all along. Incredible. No wonder we have been the league doormat for 20 years. Sunday was embarrassing and a pretty disgusting display on the football field. It really couldn't have gone worse. But to have such an irrational knee jerk reaction is ludicrous.

If things are not cleaned up in game 2 then maybe we can start to worry a bit. But, even then...I would give it until week 4 before the true, legit and reasonable panic sets. Afterall, week 3 we have arguably the 2nd best team in the league coming into our stadium. That will be a solid test for our team no matter how week 1 went.

if we can expect 10+ penalties a game, we're in deep crap bro.

if it isnt cleaned up monday night, we got real issues. right now i agree with you, we seem mentally weak.

it doesnt help we got guys kicking other players in the head, or wearing 400k watches on the freaking field.

as of right now, its fair to say we have a team full of individuals instead of an actual team like we did last year.

i know week 1 overreacts are crazy and all....but we got bounced by 30 with a fully healthy squad at home.

The penalties are the immediate thing that must be rectified .. and if it doesn’t improve much THIS week then it’s a big red flag (or yellow ) ... between weeks 1 and 2 you typically see the most improvement, especially after playing so poorly

lets hope we seem massive improvement.

because if we get bounced by the jets monday night, we can easily going into the 49ers game with our record being 0-4.

I'm just confused by the watch... Was the plan to score a TD, push up his sleeve and point to the watch? "You know what time it is!"

Weird.

As far as Freddie, he's doomed... 6% of the season GONE and he has yet to produce a win.

It has just been one week, but if I was asked for an assessment after one week then I would say you are dead-on-balls accurate.

thats the only viable excuse out there, bro.

cause anything else is....ugh.

yea, and im trying my ass off not to overreact.

but being bounced by 30 in your home opener? yea, we're allowed to overreact.

I will say I'm mildly concerned that when pressed about running the ball more in his presser yesterday Freddie said he wouldn't change anything.

I think we get to find out a lot about this team -- heart, desire, competitive spirit, skill, coaching -- on Monday. The Jets are not a good team. Gase is a mediocre coach and his offense and his QB looked just like Miami and Tannehill in game 1. If the Browns do not exert their will on this game and show some heart in a bounce back win, I think the rest of the season will be spent hoping we see growth signs from Freddie and some of the younger players.

The team feels mentally fragile right now. We need our coach and our quarterback to mentally lead this team.

In all honesty, it was probably a sponsor thing where he was paid by their company to do so .... the advertising that has already come from it is worth it now

The only watch that mattered Sunday
Was watching the Browns come out Sunday
And getting pushed around by a Titans team.

I am hopeful that positive will come out of this loss. We took it on the chin, our egos were bruised and we were embarrassed in front of a massive home crowd who had many elite guests flown in for it. The honeymoon period is officially over and we have yet to earn anything. Stay humble, put our heads down, get to work and show the nation on Monday Night who we can be and who we really are.

How much can they pay you to ruin a 350k watch? Not that he cares about money anyway. I think it's more about OBJ showing how "savage" he is by wearing such an expensive watch during an NFL game. #divasgondiva

Not saying he isn’t a diva haha, he is ... but the company’s cost was probably less than if they’d have purchased a 30 second commercial during the game ... they get ALL this advertising on social media, TV, etc for a smaller cost

Would Belichek allow Josh Gordon to wear
A watch on the field?

Belichick allows Josh Gordom to be on his team.

I would bet that OBJ had some TD celebration ready using the watch.

I cannot imagine that the maker of a $350K watch cares about advertising during a football game. I would guess that 99.9+% of fans will never be able to own such a piece.

Now it's all on Freddie? Are you saying that you think Freddie approved of the watch? He said he knew nothing about it.

What I'd like to know is
How do you spend $400K on
A watch? I mean, how
Good of a watch can it
Possibly be? I suppose it
Must have many diamonds
And golds on it.

Maybe Freddie should put a,end to the country club I'm your buddy lockeroom.

I don't get the impression the dynamic is like that at all. Everything that we see as fans shows Freddie as a brutally honest and direct guy who gets quite mad at his guys and will chew them out.

The lack of discipline in the game was surprising to me.

I'll also add he ran a very physical camp.

^This

I mentioned it yesterday but I think we'll learn a lot Monday night as to who was the driving force behind last years turn around. Win or Lose, if this team shows up again unfocused and undisciplined, I don't see how Freddie doesn'ttake a huge credibility hit. Just because a guy yells at you in practice it doesn't automatically equate to being a good disciplinarian.

On the flip side, if our guys show up and show out like we all know they can and be consistent, it won't matter who drove what last year.

The NFL average for penalties in a game is 12.25. So let's say 6 per team.

Does anyone believe the game would have had a different result if we would have had 6 penalties instead of 18?

If a head coach emphasis no penalties all through camp and coaches players not to commit penalties and then they commit penalties. Who is at fault?

Freddie got the job based upon his resume which included what he accomplished last year.

There were 20 candidates which were narrowed down to 8. Freddie got the job because he was the most impressive. Dorsey and his staff made the hire.

Maybe the question should be how did he beat the others out for the job.

To imply that Freddie is unqualified after a game where the players committed 18 penalties is a classic example of overreacting. That somehow because the players committed the penalties that they were coached that way. Quite frankly that is absurd.

I'm not saying this is the case because I don't know factually it is the case, but it is wholly possible to be all those things and not be taken seriously or respected they way one might think.

Simple answer is that Dorsey had the franchise QB he had been watching for years and saw that Baker and Freddie had a real connection. Couple that with what appeared at the time to be the promise of an innovative offense, a chance to be on the leading edge of the NFL.

That statement makes as much sense as any I've heard and it still may come to fruition. I think we were overconfident going into this game and got punched in the mouth.

A little rambling here.

The penalty stuff.. I never quite understood why coaches get the sole blame for it. It's the players! and half of that, its penalties that can happen to anyone, as its a part of the game.

This is why I was so frustrated last year when fans/media blamed Hue for penalties. Well, I guess Freddie is no better as his team broke a record in penalties dating back many years.

Having a more 'physical' camp didn't change anything in regards to penalties or the product that was put on the field.

Having players 'dress up' didnt change anything in regards to penalties or the product that was put on the field.

Having players run a lap when they make mistakes didnt change anything in regards to penalties or the product that was put on the field.

My point in saying this, is there is no blueprint that will guarantee success. The differences here are simply the philosophy on what a coach thinks his teams need to succeed.

I hope our team focuses on execution, and attention to detail, and that starts with practice. I'd like the players to step up and hold their teammates accountable. I hope I see that next week. I also need Dorsey to get this Oline and TE situation figured out.

I felt much more comfortable with last years TE rotation of Njoku, Fells, and Devalve, than who we have this year. Dorsey banks his moves on potential, but those positions are more than about potential. Good depth can't be built on potential alone. We need solid players. They may not stand out, but thats typically what good role players are. Not great at one thing, but solid at all. We need those guys at TE and Oline.

J/c

As we’ve all said, this next week is a big one for our entire franchise. We all say that you can’t overreact after one game (and I agree) ... it’s sports, you’re gonna be humbled, you’re gonna lose, etc. Especially in the NFL.

BUT, we all know darn well that an 0-2 start this season ... (with the Rams, Ravens, 49ers, Seahawks, Pats to follow) is pretty much a nightmare

Where does this statement even come from?

I mean I expect over reaction to a brutal loss. But man, just making up any crap you like without any substance ... and I mean nada, zilch, sip .... NONE.... that's just taking the over reaction to a new level.

I've never heard of a player wearing a watch to a game.
Have you?
That falls into the "I'm just going to let my players be themselves" mode of policing a locker room

I don't think there has been any coach thats had to 'police' a player wearing a watch. Its just something that never happens. Who in there right mind wears a watch playing football? lol.

For me though, this is a non issue. I think its also unfair to frame or characterize this incident with how freddie generally manages his team.

Please God let us win next week so that we don't have to talk about this type of nonsense.

Geeesh dude, is the coaching staff supposed to pat them down before they head to the field? Is that how "Bill" maintains control and obedience?

In my day it used to be just a pat on the butt and a "Good Game".. things have changed I guess. I always did wonder why coach held his squeeze a little long though....

Wait, OBJ wore an expensive watch in the game? I think the only thing more shocking is that someone is shocked by it SMH

I like this type of coaching. Other players don't. You gotta wonder if they do a personality assessment prior to signing/drafting a player.

if not they should... some players need their butts rode others need to be left alone.

regardless, I want Freddie come out and spank the Jets by 45 on Monday. I want this team to show the fans and everyone else they were right. I want them to fight to prove they belong and I hope we forget about week 1. If not... man, oh man, this is going to be a long season and Freddie will end up exactly like Chud.

Your right, I am sure the HC of any football is going over each and every players uniform and spot checking them like a military inspection. . . . .

I didn't think there was a need for purple..

Honestly, I think things will be OK barring we don't have any major injuries.

the 1st week for a rookie head coach is the most daunting. Kitchens is trying to get a feel 100% of what works and what don't. Lots of teams lost Sunday, and its not the end of the world.

I am actually fairly confident that we bounce back Monday Night. We have a lot of talent on this team, this isn't like the old Sashi Browns that were devoid of talent outside Myles Garret.

I'll be very suprised if we don't bounce back in a big way against the Jets. If what folks say about Mayfield is true, I bet that L is eating at him and he is grinding even harder than ever to put it behind him.

As long as this team can keep its composure, I think we will compete and do well.

It's called a culture.
The Patriots and Steelers have winning cultures.
Can you define the Browns culture since 1999?
Last time I checked wearing a watch on the field doesn't equate to a culture of winning
Sounds like "hey look what I'm displaying"

I'm sure Kitchens knew about the watch and gave it his seal of approval.

Seriously?

I think it was Freddies idea ... ya, thats it ... Freddie told him to do it ...

Yeah, Freddie got a kickback from the watch company.

Freddie said he didn't know OBJ wore a watch. He deserves no blame for something that isn't a big deal to begin with.

I was going to start a thread about this, but I'll just put it here for now. I have been debating whether to post these thoughts because I know certain folks will make things personal and ignore the points. But, it's been nagging me and our lack of discipline and resolve the other day made the thoughts stronger.

Before I begin, I am NOT saying that this is a reality that will derail this team, but I think it's worthy of thought.

I wonder if our guys have bought into the hype? We have a young team w/very little veteran experience from championship teams and I can see how this team would buy into the hype.

I see our QB making more commercials than Tom Brady. The former has a career losing record while the latter has won six Super Bowls. I think it's okay to market oneself, but man, he's made a lot of them. Guys like Rodgers and P. Manning made a lot, but it took years for that to happen. Heck, Baker makes way more than Mahommes, who had the better year last year.

OBJ sat out almost all of camp.

OBJ was catching passes from Kaep rather than Baker.

Landry and OBJ on the sidelines eating snacks during a preseason game.

Baker not working w/a qb coach and instead hitting the media circuit.

Multiple national magazine interviews.

A HC who talks too much. Talks tough, but contradicts himself.

Myles doing some kind of photo shoot that I refuse to look at, but man...

Vets sitting out many practices and preseason games.

Big talk all camp long.

Guys like Tom Brady working w/different receivers almost all summer long and our guys only meeting up for a couple of days. And that was more about just hooking up than actually working.

A coach who encouraged the team to not back down in scrimmages w/Indy and then his team coming out and looking totally undisciplined.

There's more, but I think the point is made. Taken in isolation, they mean nothing. Putting them together and I have to wonder if there is a connection?

If we win the next couple of weeks and go on to have a great season, those things are meaningless. If this team struggles, folks like me might wonder if we are as focuses as we should be.

For clarification sake, I want to add that par of my thought process has been influenced by similar thoughts of former NFL players like D. Woody, M. Spears, Deion Sanders, W. McGinnest, etc, etc.

Hard to argue with any of that.

I actually think many of the things you pointed out may be quite trivial and have nothing to do with any of this. I mean NFL players have down time. Off season and between OTA's and training camp. Knowing when these events took place in terms of commercials and photo shoots would go a long way in making a determination as to how relevant they may or may not be. But I would say if the team continues to lose people will try and make issues out of them even if they aren't relevant.

As it pertains to Mayfled and the WR's not working out enough together during the off season, I'd say it would have been better had they of spent more time at that.

I feel that there are far more important factors at play here. A first time HC. A new OC and DC. The play calling not giving max protection on pass plays and not using the running game properly. The players allowing themselves to let their emotions overtake them and not remain focused on the game.

I also agree with you about Baker not working with a QB coach.

But when your WR's aren't playing in a preseason game, I certainly think them eating snacks on the sideline isn't something worthy of attention.

I know that each and every one of the things I listed can be shredded on an individual basis. And I did NOT say that this is a fact. I think I said it was worthy of thought.

My point was that there may be some questions about how focused this group is on football. You can say that you are focused. You might think you are focused. But outside distractions have been the downfall of more than one team.

I think there are many more important questions about this team and I brought those up in the Hype thread. The focus thing is a different discussion.

That may be true. I just don't think in the grand scheme of things that a commercial or photo shoot you did a couple of months ago in your time off have much to do with the focus on training camp and the game last Sunday.

I could be wrong. But I just don't see it that way.

While some feel the preseason isn't important, I think we are seeing the results of what happens when you fail to use your starting line up on both sides of the ball working together.

That doesn't really hold true with team who have stable coaching systems and stable coaching staffs. But in our case, a little continuity may have worked wonders.

I am not a math major. But I would guess that a NFL team committing 18 penalties for 182 yards and turning over the ball 3 times has less than a ten percent chance of winning.

1. Blindside block on Greg Robinson, 12:14 in first quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

This is a new rule that the NFL instituted for this season, saying that blocks made by a player either running toward or parallel to his end line and leading with his helmet, forearm or shoulder are considered illegal. While Robinson did get Titans corner Malcolm Butler on the side, he led with his head and shoulder and was running in a direction towards his end zone. By the rule, the call was correct.

2. Roughing the passer on Jordan Whitehead, 10:04 in first quarter
Verdict: Lack of discipline

Nearly all roughing the passer penalties are results of players going too hard at the quarterback. Whitehead only clipped Marcus Mariota shortly after the throw. But the referees felt he didn’t pull up in time, resulting in the flag.

3. Illegal double-team block on D’Ernest Johnson, 6:36 in first quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

Johnson came in to block a player who was already being blocked on the return. By the definition of the rule, the block was illegal and it cost them 10 yards.

4. Unnecessary roughness on Myles Garrett, 14:11 in second quarter
Verdict: Lack of discipline

Garrett threw a one-handed shove at the face of Delanie Walker. That’s something refs will call every time.

5. Holding on Damarious Randall, 13:11 in second quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

This one was a very ticky-tack call against Randall because he got to Adam Humphries just a split-second too early. It probably could have been let go. But Randall got flagged, which extended the Titans’ drive.


6. Roughing the passer on Sheldon Richardson, 11:08 in second quarter
Verdict: Lack of discipline

This was a clear penalty as Richardson shoved Mariota to the ground after he let the ball go. He made it an easy call. Denzel Ward was also called for holding, but the Richardson penalty was the one that the Titans accepted.

7. Neutral zone infraction on Sheldon Richardson, 10:18 in second quarter
Verdict: Lack of discipline

Richardson jumped too early, giving the Titans a free first down on the way to a touchdown.


8. Disqualification on Greg Robinson, 5:03 in second quarter
Verdict: Lack of discipline

Kicking Kenny Vaccaro in the head is an obvious disqualification and just a lack of composure from Robinson, who claimed on Monday that he didn’t mean to kick Vaccaro.

9. False start on Chris Hubbard, 1:47 left in second quarter
Verdict: Lack of discipline

Moving before the snap is obviously a mental lapse that can be fixed.

10. Pass interference on Odell Beckham Jr., 0:21 in second quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

Beckham got open with the help of a push-off, which obviously isn’t allowed and took a crucial chance at points off the board in the final seconds of the half.


11. Holding on Chris Hubbard, 10:14 in third quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

Hubbard, who moved to left tackle after Robinson’s ejection, clearly gets his left hand on the outside right shoulder of the defender, pulling him into the middle of the play. It’s a textbook holding call and was the third penalty called on a Browns offensive tackle.


12. Holding on Greedy Williams, 5:58 in third quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

Williams essentially tackled the Titans’ gunner just before the punt was kicked off. It’s something that can be coached out of a player. Tavierre Thomas was also flagged for illegal hands to the face on the same play.

13. False start on Justin McCray, 5:52 in third quarter
Verdict: Lack of discipline

Again, false starts are just lapses in concentration.

14. Holding on Demetrius Harris, 5:52 in third quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

Harris starts the play by extending his left arm to the outside, which is just bad technique. That’s something refs are looking for every time from offensive linemen and tight ends.

15. Holding on Demetrius Harris, 15:00 in fourth quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

Harris clearly grabs a hold of the defender’s jersey, drawing the easy flag from the refs.

16. Holding on Denzel Ward, 13:05 in fourth quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

Ward is lined up here in the slot against Corey Davis. He clearly has his left hand on the right shoulder of Davis, holding him and taking him out of the play. The Titans got a first down anyway on the Marcus Mariota scramble. But even if it didn’t, Tennessee would have still gotten the first down.

17. Holding on Chris Hubbard, 8:43 in fourth quarter
Verdict: Bad technique

Hubbard got beat right off the snap and then grabbed the defender on his inside shoulder for his third penalty of the afternoon.

18. Unsportsmanlike conduct on Devaroe Lawrence, 3:11 in fourth quarter
Verdict: Lack of discipline

Lawrence said an expletive to an official to draw the penalty.


Conclusion
Bad technique penalties: 10

Lack of discipline penalties: 8

There clearly is a lot of work to do in terms of discipline. The Browns roughed the QB twice and committed multiple dead-ball fouls, including Robinson’s ejection and Garrett smacking Walker in the face.

But of course, there were plenty of penalties that were also due to poor technique. That happens often in the first game and can certainly be corrected in the film room.

Ten penalties alone is considered a bad game. But as technique gets refined during the season, that number should go down. It comes down to the penalties due to lack of discipline that can hurt a team most.

Our veteran presence is certainly a question mark on this team, in particular a veteran who has won in the NFL.

I'd love for Landry to be that guy. Grow to be the Willie McGinnest of the team. A guy that will check ANY player who slacks off, and put them in their place.

We need someone who doesn't want the excuses... they want the execution on the field.

1 game in, its hard to say exactly where our team stands from an accountability, execution, and discipline standpoint, but week 1 wasn't a good look.

This is just my thought but I think what Vers is talking about collectively is about the concept of professionalism.

A professional puts in the work, the due diligence and handles the responsibilities first. Then comes the fun stuff. I don't think there's any reason to believe that they aren't working hard. But when you see all the "fun" stuff and combine it with last Sunday's stinker, I think it's wholly reasonable to wonder:

1) What isFreddie's message to the players
2) Is it the right message for this group?
3) Is he effectively instilling that message in this group?

Time will tell.

Not to mention it's not always about what you aren't doing but also about what the other guys are doing.

He always smelled like vinegar?

Hey Pit. I am not trying to get you to agree w/me. I don't even know if I agree w/me. LOL. It's food for thought. I also appreciate that you disagreed w/out the personal crap that some resort to.

I do have one question for you. Do you think this team played w/focus in week one?

I like Freddie...

But first time head coaches should never retain play calling responsibilities. It is always a recipe for disaster.

The other major issue is accountability. All great teams have individuals that demand accountability at all levels. That is not Freddie's personality, and I don't see anyone else playing that role. This is a problem.

I don't agree with stripper in general. but I coached college players in summer baseball....I agree with him there.

I had uniform standards. Some team voted, some mandated my me. Once it was set, I checked that every player complied.


If not, get it right or take a seat on the bench with no hope of playing.

Adjustments could be made by corner outfielders to adjust for sun conditions.

I would have noticed a watch on the guy by the 2nd heartbeat upon seeing him.


My mandate was hats had to worn square. I allowed brims to be worn as they wanted, but it had to be on your head straight. Nothing crooked.

We had to dress as a team. That was the first thing I checked. To me, that is coaching 101. Dress as a team.

Freddie our coach now....it doesn't matter if he deserved it or not...

Williams and crew should have been retained...

Product on field game one was very "hueish"!

We will see, but I am not holding my breadth.

OBJackarse, the next AB...

Correct the mistakes and the results will change.

From what I read during camp about how the camp was being run. There was great emphasis placed on penalties and accountability.

In addition (pads on, etc.) there was emphasis upon being the most physical team that came directly from Freddie.

Clearly the team reacted poorly in this game. I believe there was plenty of blame to be spread around.

How they respond will tell more about what kind of team this is.

Delanie Walker disagrees. He says we already know what kind of team this is: "they were who we thought they were"

So does bouncing back against a bad Jets team really prove Delanie Walker wrong? I don't think so.

Nothing proves Delanie wrong. They had the great gameplan to upset our players and it worked.

He's just being redundant and a sore winner. Obviously they are what you thought, the plan worked.

Our players need to just ignore that noise and learn not to let the crooked Refs get under their skin and we can still win 10+ games this year.

You are welcome to believe Mr. Walker.

If you review the stats of the game they were very close.

Add giving up 182 yards in penalties and three turnovers I believe it paints a different picture.

This is a great thread topic. Seriously. I am very hopeful that we will win big this year. Here is my reality:
(1) I was thrilled when the team started winning games after Hue was let go
(2) I liked Greg before Hue was let go because of his personality
(3) I was upset when Greg was let go because I liked him and when Kitchens was announced I barely had any idea who he was and I thought “what are they doing?”
(4) Was told that Kitchens was the real reason for the Browns success. OK. I’ll buy that. Seems a little odd though. But will buy it. But I get it sort of.
(5) Browns add some quality pieces... like OBJ, Kareem Hunt, etc. we look good on paper.
(6) The thoughts I had about items #1 thru #4 disappeared from my head as the months went by.
(7) Sunday morning I was so very much wanting to get great seats for the game but ultimately decided to stay home instead of spend $400/ticket for lower level seats on stubhub. Feeling regrets for not going.
(8) Familiar feeling of Browns despair, apathy, numbness, whatever you want to call that feeling, setting in, by 3rd quarter. Knew I dodged a bullet by not going to the game and spending money. By this point I had no emotion if the Browns did anything good or bad in the game because I knew the team seemingly had major problems to overcome and reality had set back in.

So somehow I gave them the benefit of the doubt all these months. Freddie gets some time yes. But don’t expect me to eat crap sandwiches after they just gave us Hue Jackson and that 1-31 nonsense his first two seasons. We deserve better.

This makes no sense to me. Turnovers and penalties are almost always a huge part of who wins/loses the game. Outside of actual wins/losses, turnover differential is the most important stat out there. Penalties put you in terrible down and distance situations on offense and give the other team first downs and better field position on defense.

Teams that lose the turnover battle and have a plethora of unforced penalties typically do not win on any level.

I agree. You can't keep playing behind the chains if you want to have any realistic expectation to win the game.

I also think if you keep playing behind the chains, turnovers increase. The O tries to force things and the D can take more chances.

Wasn't it the opposite?

It was D that was undisciplined and unprepared and that contaminated O?

It was both.

What is your point?

So are you saying that if the Browns correct the mistakes that the outcome remains the same?

My point was obvious.

A team who turns the ball over and has too many penalties deserves to lose. And they will continue to lose if they don't start playing w/more discipline and focus.

Maybe I failed to make myself clear.

I thought I was saying the same thing. The mistakes have to be corrected then the outcome changes.

Pardon me.

I may have misunderstood you. I apologize if that is the case.

Different perspectives is what brings about good debate.



I don't really see a need for that.



They certainly did not. I just think most of the things we're seeing now, such as commercials and photo shoots were done during their down time. I'm not sure that I can make a connection that things done a month or two ago impacted them during the game last week.

If anything, I would tend to lean more on the fact that both the starting line up of both the D and O units didn't get hardly any reps playing together during preseason and all new systems take some time to gel.

But that still doesn't account for the total melt down. The needless penalties I have a problem trying to explain.

The way I saw it, we had a good opening drive from O, and then D with all the penalties just took over.

Kitchens reacted the wrong way, he should have gone conservative in Offense, until the D got their act together. He could never win the game without a change in the team spirit.

We could all sense the team melting, he should have minimized losses, avoid messing with the QB head and chances of him getting hurt. The game was lost, he shouldn't gamble the whole season. Now we have a D and O problem....

Many red flags from Kitchens,hope he gets his act together with the Jets or its going to be an ugly year.

I think the fact that players are vocalizing their feelings and lack of respect for Gregg Williams speaks volumes. We all know his past & also that Peppers didn't gel nor like how he was being used in GWs defense. I still think Peppers can be a stud, but his first two years in the league have arguably been stunted due to GW. OBJ and now Randall speaking out definitely confirms to me that we hired the right guy.

For those who are worried about all the "talk" coming from our locker room....imagine what it would be like if we also had GW as our coach!?

I don't think it would require much imagination to think that this team would have been more disciplined last week if GW was still here.

And if OBJ is that much of a wuss, he needs to just pack it in. I think it was in his comments about 'what he heard' from other players, he even said that GW was telling them to hit him if they get the chance, to hit him hard and make it hurt' (I paraphrase). Ok? And....? That's not the same as telling your guys to play like a Steeler and eat a 15yrd penalty in order to put someone out of the game.

Hitting someone so hard they feel it, wasn't that the dude's speech in Remember the Titans? LOL


This is what OBJ is crying about. No flag, no claims by the announcers about it being even marginally dirty or unnecessary, and OBJ himself wasn't throwing a tantrum over it like you would expect if he thought it was a dirty hit.





If Randall is upset about being played out of position, ok, that's valid. That team last year may not have liked GW, but they sure as hell played like they respected him.

They also respected Freddie. So, I'm good with Freddie's hire and have moved forward from last year.

I think most everyone has. There were legit pros and cons to retaining either as HC. No matter who ended up being retained, I think the expectation from most fans was to see a continuation and improvement from last year so to see that kind of a performance was a real punch in the gut.

But we'll see. Hopefully that was an aberration.

What did Randall say?

To my knowledge, nothing. Someone asked a question about GW, and Randall just said next question.

Randall said he would've requested a trade if Gregg Williams was named head coach.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/09...mmediately.html

Goodness. We lead the league in running our mouths. This crap is old. This team is talented, but is not very likeable.

STHU and play football!

I’m starting to agree w/this ... we were way more likable last season when we were more under the radar and humble. We are becoming obnoxious without any results

Well darn.. I missed all that. lmao

EXACTLY!

It's starting to get embarrassing. At least prove it on the field before you run your yapper.

I don't what you know or don't know.

So I will try to answer.

Tom Landry - Had to no head coaching experience before becoming the head coach of the Cowboys.

Chuck Knoll - Had no head coaching before the Steelers.

John Madden - Was a head coach for one year at Allan Hancock College

Sean McVay - No head coaching experience before the Rams

Bill Cowher - No head coach experience before the Steelers

Sean Payton - No head coaching experience before the New Orleans.

I could go on. Maybe a little research doesn't hurt.


Freddie was the QB at Alabama under Gene Stallings. Freddie coached under Nick Saban, Bill Parcells, Ken Whisenhunt, Bruce Arians.

Do you believe he may have learned anything?

John Dorsey. Again not sure what you know about Dorsey?
Check his resume.

Dorsey had a full year to evaluate Freddie as a coach and leader. He was moved in the position of OC. The team responded well.

There were 20 head coaching candidates which were paired down to eight. Dorsey then hired Freddie. If you believe Dorsey is qualified as a GM? Then maybe he is qualified to hire a head coach?

To somehow imply Freddie Kitchens is not qualified is basically saying the others before him who also had no previous head coaching experience were also unqualified.

Oh I forgot.

That guy Bill Belichick never was a head coach before he was hired as the head coach of the Browns.

So FK = BB? Sorry but everyone on your list had alot more experience and were actually coordinators for more than 8 games before becoming HC..BB was a DC for 2 super bowl wins. I get what you're saying but FK has always been a career position coach. You're naming some of the best coaches in history, for each one of those theres atleast 10 that didn't make it...probably more

There is a much larger list of first time HC's who have failed. And that's just over the past few seasons.

Now I'm not saying that Freddie will fail. That's not the objective of my post.

My objective is to state that you can cherry pick anything to punctuate a point you're trying to make. That doesn't mean it's an accurate assessment of a situation.

Freddie is very early in the process. Nobody can say with any certainty how it will all play out. But for every Chuck Knoll there are at least 20 Chip Kelly's.

Or Eric Mangini's, or Bill Callahan's, or Mike Tice's, or Jim Caldwell's, or Romeo Crennel's, or Cam Cameron's, or Rod Marinelli's, or..... Well I think you get my point.

This is how the thread opened.

"He is the 1st coach that I know of
That has not been a HC at any level before this
Year."

Did I say Freddie was Belichick?

How is that possible when he has one game under his belt?

He was not a head coach before he got the Browns job.

There are many others.

Freddie was qualified enough to be hired by Dorsey.

Maybe he should be judged after this season?

Want to do some research check the records of some of these coaches their first few years.

Example Bill Walsh was 2-14 his first year.

A team commits 18 penalties and it's the head coaches fault?

So let us all jump to conclusions about Kitchen's ability based upon game one.

May as well damn Dorsey for hiring him as well.

That was my point when you made this comment on the "Freddie" thread you started not long ago.

Who is, "let's all"?

I pointed out to you that you're only looking at one side of the coin. And you are. At least that's the picture you are portraying here.

bone, I agree w/you that it is much too early to write Freddie off. Only the extremists would do that. On the other hand, I think some of you gave him too much credit even though he had never won a game as a HC.

All we can do is judge him on a game-by-game basis and then make evaluations much later down the line. This team has talent, so he does not have that excuse. He isn't coaching the Dolphins. We are loaded w/talent.

Grade for Game One: F! The team was undisciplined. They lacked focus. They have been running their mouths before and after the game about things they should shut the hell up about. They also freaking quit w/a ton of time left in the game.

I hope he earns an A for game two. That would put him at a solid C and trending upward.

Nothing is given, bone. He has to improve.

Responding to the guy who started the thread.

Freddie is the head coach. He will be the head coach at least for this year.

I don't believe it is appropriate at to pass judgement on him at this time.

I know he will be judged after each game. So be it. I will refrain. We have played enough pinball with head coaches. I want to see what he can do over this year.

There is alot of history in this game that deserves looking at regarding how coaches have started and finished their careers.

If we would have won 42-0 I would not be fitting him for a gold jacket either.

j/c:



Freddie sounds like a dumb-ass who gets easily angered. What does he mean when he says he doesn't know who is saying that? LOL.............he already knew who said it when it was brought to his attention.

He sounds like another one of our windbags.

You don't like Baker, and you don't like Kitchens. Just say it, instead of the innuendo.

My post was about the Browns. Your post was about me. This is the Pure Football Forum. Stick to football, please.

J/c

This team is a lightning rod due to our personnel and circumstances ... and our players/coach are exacerbating the situation IMO without ANY good results yet.

I wish we’d just answer things and be humble, especially given last Sunday

Did you ever call our 1-31 coach a dumbass?

Yes, I even started a thread that was titled "Did Hue Quit on His Team" or something very similar. Along w/cfrs, I was first to question Hue. I defended him later on, just like I have almost every other coach we have had. I stopped defending him after he was fired. I am questioning Freddie now, but he is the one who made the dumb ass comment. Not me. And I will probably be defending Freddie when you are calling him names.

I think obviously FK has this season to get it done.
But I really believe it's playoffs or being unemployed
For him.
I just find it fascinating to hand a guy a coaching job
At the highest level when in the past he's never left
A imprint of any sorts before 2018.
Let me rephrase that. A lasting imprint
It's almost like if their was temporary staffing service
For NFL assistants Freddie would be a model of that
Maybe Freddie can sail this ship into the playoffs.
He has 100x talent than Hue ever had to work with

Freddie should be angry. He should be downright embarrassed. But he starts to sound like an idiot and totally justifies the doubt about him when he acts like this team didn't lack heart.

What the hell else do you call a team who folds at the end of the 3rd quarter because they are down by a whopping, insurmountable NINE friggin points!??

And then give up 21 points in the final quarter?

I certainly don't expect any coach to publicly admit his team lacked heart, but at least take the high road and say you don't get involved with the Twitter stuff.

JMO-

I think everyone from the waterboy to the hardest core fan has to refrain from overreacting.

The loss was disturbing and I think the mindset of the team was that they could mail it in and beat the Titans they now know for certain that isn't so.

I think Freddie needs to take control of his team and his players and refocus everyone on what needs to happen.

I also think that Freddie made a blunder when he made his impose your will statement leading into the Colt's preseason game.

I also think this team needs to understand that NFL football is all about the grind. There is so little room between winning and losing you simply have to be grinders. The teams that grinds the best win the most, understanding that imposing your will like your the school yard bully is for teams far more accomplished then the Browns are at this juncture. So for me the focus is grinding and stop committing stupid self inflicted penalties.

At the end of the day this hopefully serves the purpose of refocusing, some times a good old fashioned ass whipping can serve as a reminder that any given Sunday still applies and being focused and doing your job is far more impotant then imposing your will.

I agree, but that also doesn't mean he can't or shouldn't be evaluated along the way. I think everyone is hoping that game was a fluke, but first impressions are important.

jc -

All of the Browns pressers, coaches and players, are on YouTube. I would suggest watching them in addition to reading the quotes. The written word, without body language and tone, doesn't always tell the whole story. For example, Ward appeared to make a disparaging mark about Gregg and the way Gregg criticized his tackling when he was here. I myself reacted to the quote as another player running his mouth. It was actually stated in a kind of a self deprecating joking manner and completely harmless after I watched the presser. My opinion changed 180 degrees.

I'm not saying that every single time your opinion will be changed. But it's an important piece of information in forming that opinion.

J/c

I think there’s no doubt the Titans staff talked to the Colts about the Browns ... Colts relayed our propensity to get into fights and take the bait, so the Titans had that plan in place

Why would the Colts want to give a division rival 'advice'?

Well, who did the Titans play in the preseason who the Titans would want to know about? Coaches do that all the time

I don’t think he sounds like a dumbass at all. People who say things like that have the problem.

I do not find our team perfect but I find them “likeable”. Maybe you should try to find a more “likeable” team. Maybe one without a “dumbass” for a coach too.

Hey, Vers will be the first one defending him when everyone else calls for his head.

Our coach isn’t a dumbass. Not all that complicated. Hopefully no one is calling for his head for a long time.

Maybe. But for a team within your division? C'mon, man.

Hey, don't discount just how powerful a motivator spite can be and the price people are willing to pay for the principle of it. When my 11 year old decides to show how much like her mother she is, I can take her phone, cut the wi-fi and threaten to disrupt the communications grid and her response is akin to "Don't threaten me with a good time" lol

Scouts,the Titans employ scouts.
Perhaps one or two were at those practices.

j/c:

--The Titans didn't need to talk to Indy's coaches. Freddie's comments and the Brown's reactions were in several media outlets.

--keith, you have a big mouth. I didn't call Freddie a "dumbass." I said he sounded like one when he was asking who said that when he already had commented on Butler saying it. That was stupid. And frankly, keith......I'm sick of your insults. And don't you dare tell me who to root for.

So let me get this straight. He is not a dumbass, he just sounds like a dumbass. That’s what I call a distinction without a difference. And I can tell you anything I dang well please. Put it in file 13 for all I care.

Wait. You started the fight and then have a problem when I defend myself? That was a dumb comment by Freddie. Dude already addressed Brown's comments and then he says I don't know who is making these comments. What?

And yeah, keith.......you can say anything you damn well please. But, then again, I should be allowed to defend myself. No?

You can do and say dumb things. Doesn't make you dumb. It's not that hard to understand.

Any type or background can prove successful. Give it time. He will either prove to be a good HC or not, only time will tell. But he was certainly qualified.

All this trash talk coming from the Titans they sure didn't show much heart the last two weeks losing to teams without thier starting QB. I wish we had another shot at them this season to be honest.

j/c:

Freddie Kitchens on giving up the play calling: ‘That’s not even being considered'

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/09...considered.html

By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns coach Freddie Kitchens said Monday he’s not planning to hand the play-calling duties over to offensive coordinator Todd Monken.

"That’s not even being considered,'' he said, a day after the Browns lost 20-13 to the Rams to fall to 1-2.

Asked why he wouldn’t hand it over to Monken for a week to see if it gets better, he said, “It’s me.”

He said if it fails, it falls on him.

He acknowledged that "some of these situations, they’re new for me. I’ll get better for this team and the team will get better.''

Asked about how Monken is involved in the offense, he said, "this is 100% the Cleveland Browns offense. We’re not going to start with that.''

He added, “We’re going to be fine. I promise you that.”

He said being head coach in addition to the offensive play caller "has nothing to do with me calling better plays'' or game planning during the week.

Ill give him credit, he wont throw Monken under the bus. But its clearly Monkens offense hes calling.

Well Kitchens is dumber than I thought he was. I actually thought he was smarter than this. The guy is in over his head.

Im telling you, any less than 9 wins and both Dorsey and Kitchens are in serious jeopardy. Dorsey is the one who picked Kitchens over Willaims, Dorsey is the one who assured Haslam Baker Mayfield is the guy, it was Dorsey who has spent all this money and all these high profile trades to get what? This absolute garbage.

for ***** sake, Kitchens called a damn draw play on 4th and 9, WTH was he doing!? Was he trying to set up for a field goal? Doesn't he know you don't get 5 downs in football. I agree with Rex Ryan that was the DUMBEST call I have ever seen in the NFL and I have been watching NFL Football since 88, its was more than a boneheaded call, its was just a completely stupid moronic call, It shows Kitchens to be an absolute dunce!

Todd Monken had the leagues 3rd ranked O last year in Tampa as a Offensive Coordinator. Todd Monken would call a better game than Kitchens, Freddie is an AWFUL play caller, he needs to get his head out of his arse and hand over the play calling duties to his OC and focus on managing the team. If your not going to delegate, why bother hiring the guy in the 1st place.

Even Monken, as much as I hate the Air Raid would have ran the ball with Chubb down there with 1st goal at the 4 with 3 timeouts, even Monken isn't "that stupid".

Mayfields poor play and Kitchen's god awful play calling have lost us two games. We won't 5 games with Kitchen's play calling if the 1st 3 games are any indication, the guy has no feel for the flow of the game.

Kitchens will be one and done if he doesn't swallow his damn pride and relinquish his play calling over to his OC...I know he has painted himself in a corner, if the O takes off after handing it to Monken it proves he doesn't know what he is doing...Him and Monken were at odds in the early camp and preseason for a reason, that reason being seen clearly on Sundays...you can't blame any of this on Monken, Kitchens is just not a good play caller, has no feel for the flow of the game. Guy is in over his head.

In terms of the draw play, I still believe he thought it was 3rd down ... I mean, nobody can be that dumb can they?

If they were legit running circles around us, their offense sure as hell didn't show it.

IIRC that quote was from the Titans game a few weeks ago

I look at it like this, both Freddie and Baker have now taken the blame. They've identified the areas they need o work on. So now we let them work on those areas.

Uh oh, didn't Hue make a couple of promises he couldn't keep?

He added, “We’re going to be fine. I promise you that.”

I said before Ego will do him in. Not a single person would blame him in conceding the duties. He’d probably even be applauded for putting team ahead of his ego and buy himself some time

j/c:

Did anyone listen to this? Dude sounds shell-shocked.

Look for Cleveland Browns coach Freddie Kitchens to let it rip against the Ravens -- because he knows

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/09...e-he-knows.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland Browns coach Freddie Kitchens promised the wishbone last season, and everyone thought he was joking. Then he delivered the wishbone for three plays in a win over the Atlanta Falcons.

The Browns need Wishbone Freddie back. I think you might see him when the 1-2 Browns head to Baltimore next week. Because this Freddie Kitchens isn’t doing right by himself, his offense or his quarterback.

Kitchens set a high bar last season with his second-half play-calling that lit a fire under this franchise, jumpstarted the career of Baker Mayfield and earned a running backs coach who had never even called plays before the chance to lead a team picked to make the playoffs. What got Kitchens hired in January is getting him excoriated in September after another stagnant offensive effort in a 20-13 loss to the Los Angeles Rams on Sunday night.

You’re sick of it. I think Kitchens is, too.

As Jarvis Landry exited the locker room Sunday, he stopped and told his coach that this is still going to be a helluva team. Kitchens promised Landry he’d put him in a better position to make plays next week, and to forget everything else.

For Kitchens, it’s about remembering who he was.

I think it’s possible that Kitchens has called plays through three games the way he thinks the head coach of a playoff team with Odell Beckham, a franchise quarterback and a workhorse running back is supposed to call plays. Kitchens stuck with his Dawg Pound sweatshirt as sideline attire, but underneath, he put himself in a straitjacket of additional talent and expectations.

Wishbone Freddie? With OBJ? Preposterous. But no more. Kitchens has to dance with the one that brought him, when through three games, he hasn’t been dancing at all.

At some point, we’re going to find out if the last eight games of 2018 was a representation of Kitchens’ offensive acumen or whether the rest of the assistants helped prop up a play caller who was rolling against a collection of ho-hum defenses. Kitchens was ticked in the preseason when former offensive line coach Bob Wylie implied as much.

But three games in, that’s what anyone who remembers those comments is wondering -- was there truth to them?

There’s only one thing Kitchens can do to quiet those thoughts: Get back to Wishbone Freddie, to Let It Rip Freddie, to Earned This Job Freddie. Get back to creative, rhythmic, fun offense. To winning offense. Get back to an offense that accentuates the best of Mayfield, instead of too many deep drops that lead to wild, unplanned and usually ineffective scrambles.

I think Kitchens can do it. I can envision him standing at a podium in December after a playoff-clinching win and asking, “Remember when y’all doubted me?” We should all look forward to that -- let’s have Kitchens set every current doubt on fire and rub the ashes in our faces. But he has to do it now. He has to change.

I think he will. I think this is a line in the sand. Week 4, at Baltimore, Old Freddie returns.

I pushed Kitchens in his postgame news conference Sunday with an array of questions about the play calling. He accepted every bit of blame, in a way that isn’t my favorite move by a coach. It’s the kind of over-the-top blame acceptance that can be be admired for protecting players but eventually can seem dismissive.

“He can’t take all the heat for us," Beckham said later in the locker room. “He can’t take all the blame. I won’t let him take all the blame.”

But at the end of the news conference, I asked about some of the up-tempo offense the Browns used successfully on one scoring drive Sunday night. Whenever the Browns do that, getting to the line and keeping a defense on the defensive, it seems to fit Mayfield. Quick snap, quick thoughts, quick hits. Why can’t the Browns do more of that?

“We did it against Baltimore last year the last game of the year,” Kitchens said. "Yeah, it’s probably coming for them, but I don’t know that yet. I have not started looking at them. We feel very comfortable doing that. We’ll see. We felt like we had them on the ropes a little bit with a couple of those drives, and we just wanted to keep moving the ball.”

On the ropes? Remember when the Browns did that a lot? You remember, and Kitchens does, too. If he recalls going up-tempo against the Ravens in Week 17, he recalls the rest of what he did last season. Kitchens said repeatedly to put the blame on him, but I told him it really wasn’t about blame. It was about an offense with clear talent not maximizing it, for whatever reason.

He can’t think this offense, which has scored 13, 23 and 13 points after averaging 23.8 points in the second half last season, is living up to its talent level.

“We have a lot of talent. That doesn’t mean anything. Other teams have talent," Kitchens said. “We have to do the things that when we have the opportunity to make the plays, we have to make the plays. I have to do a better a better job of getting those guys into situations where they’re in the situation to make the play. The talent is great, but still, it doesn’t mean anything. I’ve said that from the beginning.”

Kitchens admitted to a specific play-calling error Sunday, when he called four unsuccessful passes from the 5-yard line in the final minute. The first play had a run option, but the Rams’ coverage made it clear the pass option was the right call. Kitchens said he was kicking himself in the rear end for not calling at least one run, and it should have been on second down, when that play call didn’t have a run option as part of it.

That sparked a worry in my mind, to hear a coach right after a game realizing the mistake he’d made minutes earlier. Is it possible that Kitchens has too much going on -- calling the plays and running a team -- to realize that in the moment?

“I should have called more of a direct run," Kitchen said. "That’s all I will say.”

Kitchens for now doesn’t want to entertain the idea of changing the play-calling operation ... like giving those duties to offensive coordinator Todd Monken. But I think he will change how he thinks about his own play calls.

What happened, I asked, to that offense of a year ago? What’s missing?

“I wouldn’t say anything is missing," Kitchens said. "It takes time to develop offensively. We kind of hit the ground running last year because we had been through eight games already so we know what we were doing. I would say, I have to do a better job during the course of the week of putting these guys in better situations and then on game day. If you’re looking to blame somebody, blame me. Do not blame any of our players. Do not blame any of our other coaches. Just blame me because I can take it. Just blame me.

"Go write your article and say that I messed the game up. Go write your article and say that it’s my fault that things are not looking like it did last year, because it is.”

What’s missing is the play calls of a year ago. That’s not only it, and I know some people think there’s too much of a play calling focus when the bigger issue might be real Mayfield regression. But I think Mayfield looking less sure of himself stems from the play calls. That and the fact that he might not trust his tackles, which leads to him bailing out of the pocket when he doesn’t have to.

But hear me out on this:

Kitchens was looking at me and answering my question when he said go write your article. This is the article. I can tell you Kitchens didn’t have a problem with the questions. But I think he has the same problem with the results.

You’re in for a week of angst and strong reactions. The fact is that the Browns are in second place in the AFC North and one game out of the wild card, and they just had four shots from the 5-yard line to tie the game in the final minute against a Super Bowl team.

Give them the opening schedule of the Buffalo Bills -- Jets, Giants (still with Eli Manning) and the Bengals -- and the Browns might be 3-0, too. So it’s too early to bail on Kitchens as a play caller, or to bail on anything else about this team or this offense. But it’s reasonable to be on alert.

Anticipate change Sunday. If we’re having this same discussion after Week 5, then maybe start to assume the change won’t, or can’t , come.

For now, look for Wishbone Freddie. Head Coach Freddie knows he needs him.

Did Doug Lesmiserable write this trash?

I didn’t watch the entire presser, but I’d really prefer if he’d not use the words battled lol

It wasn't just what he said. It was his voice. His demeanor. His body language. It was like he was completely overwhelmed by a shocking event. I worry that he isn't going to make it.

I don't think Freddie was ready....sorry guys and gals.

The one thing that really helped turn things around last year was a quick reduction in the penalties....the undisciplined team we had under Hue quickly changed under Williams. Players don't like him, why? Because he gave them crap about being stupid?

Not going to turn this into a Williams vs Freddie thread. But, this team looks ALOT like Hue's undisciplined product on the field. How many procedural penalties did we have last night for illegal shifts? I think five? Don't the coaches know how many players must be set before the snap? (I am by no means an expert on the subject but I don't make millions playing or coaching this game) When they are practicing these things during the week SHOULDN'T THE COACHES BE SAYING you can't do that in practice? This team seems poorly coached and that is one Freddie.

D played their butts off last night!!! Hmmm, this was our second string and they shut down the Rams? Maaayyybeee they should be our first string? Just saying....DB's made some major plays to give us a chance....

Ha! Omg, I saw this while on my phone and responded to it. LOL!

I have been saying that, but not has commented. After the penalty was declined I think he thought it was a replay of the down (only if he would have challenged and won though). He most def thought it was 3rd IMO.

I was wondering the same thing. I don't know the answer, but either way, it's not a good look from Freddie.

I can appreciate that opinion, but its still early. I think Dorsey has even commented that this is still a work in progress. He will have a leash (at least 2 seasons).

ITs not looking good - I admit that. And I was a FIRM supporter of Freddie and had his back. I will take my lumps on him if I am wrong.

But I don't see him being a guy that will not adjust what is not working. He will get it right, I still have faith, even though I am extremely frustrated with him as well.

I was not trying to insinuate that he should be fired. I hope it did not come across that way. Hell, I'll probably be defending him [hope I don't have to] when others are calling for his head. I was just struck by his presence. His voice was hoarse, his body language was off, gulping water while in the middle of an answer, clipped sentences, etc He looked and sounded like someone who just witnessed a horrific plane crash or something like that.

Gotcha, I could have just read it that way.

I think last year was a honeymoon. Everything went SO WELL when he took over the Offense, and then the talent we brought in - how could it be much more difficult? [sarcasm]

I don't think hes the type of guy that likes the press [ no excuse, that's now part of the gig], and I think hes a straight shooter that now has to be very careful of what he says. I think those gulps of water etc are him trying to calm himself. He wants to scream "I am jacked! I am frustrated! I am pee'd off!" But knows he cant, and its wearying on him having to be so controlled. Hes a fiery guy, he doenst like having to have his church hat on.

Not giving him a pass by any means - just maybe a different perspective.

I can def. see the concern from what you are seeing. And again - I am speculating and giving him the benefit of the doubt. You very well could be right. I am hoping you are wrong.

To me, he sounds pissed off at himself.

That’d be a good place to start, yes. He deserves a lot of blame and needs to improve across the board ... and so do our offensive players across the board

I know you don't. You've been clear on that. I wasn't all gaga about Freddie being named the HC. Gosh, remember why we did that (allegedly)? He was this offensive genius that would've been hired away if we didn't lock him down (that was part of the chatter on here, at least)... Looking back on that... ugh....
That said, we made that decision, and we have to stick to it. We hired a guy that had roughly 1/2 of a season calling plays under his belt, and we hired him with the understanding that he would retain play-calling. Between that and his overall experience, we signed up for a longer learning curve at the HC position than if we went with someone with previous HC experience. It's silly to hire a guy with the resume that Kitchens has and then expect perfection. He's gotta take his lumps and grow into the role. We knew this when we hired him, so we gotta stick with it.

Good read. I hope he is not so full of himself that he can't learn from his own shortfall. This offense as called and run behind this line is not achieving well. How what is needed or immediately clear after films and a few snappy interviews but eludes you during the game is preposterous. The blown opportunity point-blank on the goal line with four passes is beyond odd.

Fix the O, play mix, BM, your coaching, whatever. But fix something this week and improve the rest. Penalties must be on that list.

j/c

I certainly feel that Freddie deserves his fair share of the blame. But I don't think it should all be heaped on him. Something is up with Mayfield too. He no longer steps up in the pocket and delivers. Instead he scrambles out of the pocket and isn't seeing the open guy. Both of them look like someone else invaded their bodies and took over.

The problem isn't Freddie Kitchens, the problem is Baker Mayfield. Baker Mayfield is NOT a good QB, and at this juncture I doubt he ever will be. Going purely by the film, even Derek Anderson was a better QB..

The film says, Baker Mayfield is a one read QB..look back at last year, we ran lots of max protect, only 2-3 guys running routes, most of Baker's big plays and passes came off the 1st read. If the 1st read isn't there, he runs/rolls to the right and throws.

He done this last year, and he is doing it now. This isn't college, NFL Defensive Coordinators adjust, No one in that division at Oklahoma plays D, all the games are shootouts, all those D absolutely suck.

Mayfield isn't even able to go through simple progressions, show this kid man coverage pre-snap and then actually run zone and the kid is completely lost. The book is out on him....

Mayfield has a 1-18 record against teams with a winning record last year....1-18....let that sink in....He is ok at beating bad teams, nothing more.

an QBR in the 80's is for mediocre QB
An QBR in the 90's is where the good Qb are.

Look at last year and his sub 90 QB ratings against the Raiders, Ravens x2, Steelers, and Houston. His total rating is padded by high QBR against the Bengals 2 times, the Bucanners, and and Carolina...all teams that had terrible D last year.

Lets not forget his god awful 47% completion percentage and 52 QBR against the Chargers.

If the Browns were "Smart" and I use that term loosely because I don't really think Dorsey is all that smart, I think he is a good scout, but he is not a good GM when it comes to putting a team together. He has made very questionable decisions as of late, and brining in guys with character issues via the draft and FA.

If the Browns were "smart" however, they would package Baker Mayfield in a deal with the Carolina Panthers this off season for Cam Newton. Word is Newton relationship with Panthers ownership and FO has soured, and Mayfield still has some value so best to move the one read QB while he still has value...he is our Trent Richardson of QB.

We could work out a deal something like a 1st, and 3rd this year + Mayfield in return for Newton, a 4th, and swapping 5ths. the Panthers get Mayfield on a rookie deal, the Browns get Newton with 1 year left on his contract which we can easily sign a new deal. We then draft a QB in the 2nd rd of the draft and the kid is developed and rides the pine for a few years while we get high level of play from Newton.

Newton will be NFL MVP with Landry, OBJ, and Chud. With the talent we got, we got a 3 year window to win something, we don't have the luxary of time to hope Mayfield figures it out...I don't think he will.

He will do what he done in college, 1st read, if not there, scramble right and improvise hope someone gets open...the book is out, he is Trent Richardson playing QB, time to move on while we can still get value from him...we can take someone to the woodshed just like we did with Richardson, but we will have to do it before next season.

Call me the ultimate troll, whatever, but I have seen this story before. We would be smart to trade and move on.

Or maybe he can get better?

And finally... Baker Mayfield is Trent Richardson.

Maybe Indy will give us a first now that their "Luck has run out".

Great take, KOB.

I have not agreed w/folks who have anointed Baker as a franchise, Super-Bowl winning qb because I thought it was too early to make a definitive evaluation.

I have the same attitude towards your statement. It is much too early to say he is not a good qb. I think he has a chance to be good. It's not a given, but he has some good attributes.




What?

I'm going to choose not to respond to the rest of the post the puts all the blame on Baker - using such phrases as "Lets not forget his 52 QBR vs the Chargers" .... while at the same time you forget that he was a rookie, he still hasn't started 16 games ... and last year he had the best or one of the best Rookie seasons as a QB ever ...

I would however like to point out that your assessment of Cam is just a little off. While a phenom athlete - Cam has never been a good or accurate throwing QB. He's now old, beat up and can't run without getting hurt. . . . the idea anyone thinks he'd be good with OBJ and Landry is questionable.

One quick question - any idea why the Panthers acquired Funchess and Benjamin? . . . and it still didn't help. They need 8 ft tall receivers.

Im not sure he will. 16 games in you kinda start to get an "idea" of what a guy is going to look like. Sure you can work on mechanic things, but at the end of the day a guy is who he is.

Look here, week 15 against Denver



Every single play is 1st read, if the 1st guy isn't there, he runs right...All the completions came on 1st read, the guy hardly turns his head. He looks exactly the same this year, only difference is NFL D coordinators are not stupid and are taking that away.

Mayfield is a guy that has gotten by on pure athletic ability. In High School, College, Walk-ons, etc...even last year they just dumbed down the O and let him succeed on his arm alone.

That won't work in the NFL. I knew it for sure when I saw the Jets game, Mayfield didn't know what Greg Williams was trying to do. He was completely lost.

The Fact is, Mayfield is more worried about being famous, making TV commercials, and cutting grass for TV Ads than he is playing football.

I'd love to be proved wrong. I really wish he would too because time tired of looking for QB, but you can tell he never worked on his craft and hardly watched any film in the offseason, you can see it in his play. The NFL is full of talented guys, the ones who become good are the ones who study, and so far Mayfield isn't studying..if he was Greg Williams would not have been able to confuse him so easily.

PS: He had a lot to say about Daneil Jones, jones has thrown more TD passes in 1 game that Mayfield has thrown all year...I don't think he will ever learn to shut that hole under his nose.

The Browns went 7-8-1 last year, and 1-2 this year. How anyone gets 1-18 when the team has won 8, lost 10, and tied one in the time he's been here. (and he didn't start all of those games)

Baker has the physical tools and brains. All he has to do is study and work at it. It's up to him. He can be very good if he wants it.

Freddie is almost Reddie...:)

Let me make this perfectly clear, I do NOT hate Baker Mayfield. I like Baker, I warmed up to him during training camp last year, He is a guy I thought had potential.

Why do I want to trade him? I'll tell you why.

In 2018 we brought in a pretty good Qb by the name of Tyrod Taylor, a guy who made the Pro Bowl in 2015 and 2017. He had also won a Super Bowl with Ravens in 2012, and QB his team to a playoff berth.

In ANY OTHER CITY IN AMERICA a QB with 2 Pro Bowl berths in 3 years would have been given much more leeway than 2 games. Not in Cleveland though, we are just in a *** ****** hurry to put our rookie QB in to play before they are ready.

The Browns screwed up the plan BIG TIME. Mayfield was NOT able to beat out Tyrod Taylor in training camp/preseason. Taylor played better than him period, if Mayfield was as good as people thought, he would have beaten out Taylor.

The Browns screwed up because Mayfield was a guy that needed to sit, and not for a few games either, but for atleast 2 seasons like Philips River did. Mayfield is very raw, he has a lot to work on mechanically, it would not have been the end of the world for Mayfield to sit. what you are seeing right now is the Browns ruining another QB because they just won't be patient and develop anyone.

We would have won 6-7 games last year with Taylor.
This year we would be a 9-7 or 10 win team with Taylor
Year 3 is when you ideally put in Mayfield.

Good QB like Manning just don't fallout trees. Manning and Luck are exceptions, not the norm. drafted QB need to sit for awhile because the game is much faster and complex than it is now. The GOAT Tom Brady sat his 1st year.

We have rushed Baker Mayfield, and in the process we peeved Taylor so he bolted and left via FA...this team is 3-0 with Tyrod Taylor at QB right now.

Dorsey said the plan was to develop Mayfield, but he couldn't stick with the plan, just like every other failed HC and GM from Holgren, Heckert, etc...they just don't take the time to develop anyone. a year or two on the bnech watching film, practicing, striving to be better and beat out the current guy is part of the process.

Mayfield was HANDED the starting job from Taylor, he didn't earn it. He never beat out Taylor in a legit way. the Browns should have went right back to Taylor the following week, and won a game...its what most other franchises would have done if they had a recent 2 time Pro Bowl QB.

the problem is two fold:

1. Baker Mayfield was rushed into playing too early
2. He never beat out and earned the job from Taylor, it was handed too him.

Last year we should have sent Stanton out there when Taylor went down against the Jets, Baker was an investment and last year was NOT the time to cash him in, he needed more time to mature. He is already developing bad habits, and I have no faith our current coaches can correct it.

Its sad really, I had high hopes for Mayfield. When we got Tyalor I thought "wow we got a 2 time Pro Bowl guy, this means we can actually sit and develop our high draft pick" and when Taylor beat him out in camp I was like we really will do this right this time, but then he gets hurt in the Jets game and instead of bringing out Stanton, who has won some game sin this league, we bring out the rookie...much much toosoon...were paying the price for it now...

Are you ignoring that Taylor got a concussion and then Mayfield played much better than him?

You had me at Tyrod Taylor. Do you even read the drivel you spew. What crap.

I feel you should root for a different team.

I'm revoking your fan card.

Kob normally I let patently absurd remarks go by. But if the colts had judged Peyton manning after 16 games he would have been fired and never played again in the nfl. I am betting there are dozens more just like him. Make your decision on a qb after 16 games you will never have a qb.

By the way, if you did make that call after 16 games on baker I am betting his stats would look pretty good in comparison to most other quarterbacks at that point in their career.

Nobody was more doubtful of Freddie's ability for this job than me when his hire was announced. However, I think he does get it. I think he's working to improve things. I think the real problem was this team being overhyped and high expectations of fans starving for a contender.

I'd like to hold off on judging Freddie and Baker until the season ends.

Responding to Knight:

I don’t hate Baker, nor did I hate Tyrod ... so, IMO, Baker is sucking right now. Don’t know if it’s mostly scheme or him or whatever, but he’s been as bad as I’ve seen him since the preseason game in Tampa.

BUT, I thought Tyrod was worse last year ... he would never be someone I’d rely on to win games

I wouldn't trade Baker for Cam straight up, let alone throwing in first round picks.

Especially since Cam is off on some sort of David Bowie-esque mental trip.

Im sorry, but...

Baker wasn't given the chance to beat out Tyrod. Hue said that from the get go.

Baker didn't need to sit, he needed to play. That seemed relatively obvious last year. Several quarterbacks didn't sit out their rookie campaigns including both Mannings, Wentz, Roethlisberger, Wilson, etc the list goes on! Its not a magic formula for a quarterback to become good.

I don't understand those who say Baker likes to talk, is too involved in making commercials etc. Baker doesn't talk, he answers questions. From day one he's proven himself on the field. Consider he's a two time walk-on turned Heisman. Anyone who asks if he's going to put the work in has a screw loose. He doesn't feel entitled to anything and earns everything.

A lot of what you say doesn't make sense because most of it has already been proven wrong.

j/c:

Somewhere in the great abyss between KOB and device, the truth can be found.

Well, the needle is pointed much closer to Device. KOB is painting some abstract fantasy... With some pretty broad strokes. I'm waiting for some weird theory for how we should have kept Brock Osweiler and passed on Baker. I'm sure he has some abstract stat for why every QB since the return is actually better than Baker.

I wish I had the patience to read all that junk - it's got to be entertaining.

We know you don't have it...

J/C

Well I guess we will see. I have my own thoughts on the matter, but things will be much more clear by seasons end.

Perception is often reality for many folks. Because yeah, Baker never talks.

Keep thinking that. we will see in another 18 months...

This is where I think everyone should be at right now. We weren't going to be 100% dialed in and clicking on offense in the beginning of the season, and that's not even considering the change in offensive scheme, injuries and other stuff preventing the offense from playing/practicing together. All that additional stuff just delays that process further.

Baker needs to clean a lot of stuff up, but I think he will. He showed some ability to learn from mistakes and improve last year, so I'm choosing to depend on that. Time will tell, of course.

I will reiterate one thing about he offensive line, though. If this Air Raid offense is what Freddie and Monkin want to run and aren't going to change back to stuff that worked last year, then this offensive line is a weakness that needs to be upgraded. Yes, those PFF stats show they're actually doing pretty well, but this offensive scheme we're running requires them to do better. Same with Baker, but he's a second-year player, and he's our FQB... we're not going to be swapping him out anytime soon.

Another example of Baker not talking:



The more he talks, the more shots he will take from guys who were in the league. There are a ton of former NFL players and coaches not happy w/Baker's mouth. I think he needs to shut-up and play. Maybe even read Tom Brady's comments or even Lamar Jackson's. Say something nice or don't say anything at all.

This post is soooooooo transparent......It has no merit other than its obvious intention...….bait.....

honestly.....

tyrod taylor?!!?!?

you can do better than that....

Dude... research Taylor before posting abOut him...

He made one pro bowl... not two...

He won a Super Bowl as a back up... he had under 200 yards passing that's year and most of that was in game 16 when flacco was rested...

Yes he was the primary starter for a team that made the playoffs... with 9 win... and he scored 3 points in that playoff game...

As a Browns starter the Browns won 1 game... and that was the game baker took over for him...

Baker was better than Taylor... I wanted Taylor to start all year but baker was clearly better...

Baker needs to improve... this is his second year.l. This is pretty common for most their second year that NFL defenses catch up and figure them out..... I hope he improves...

This is kinda weird:

Vers, Baker Mayfield “the person” is an absolute moron.

Does Mayfield even know what Rex Ryan has done?

He helped lead one of the greatest D in history with the 2000 Ravens.

He has a Super Bowl Ring

He won 4 playoff games as Head Coach of the Jets.

He won 4 playoff games with Mark Sanchez as his QB, Sanchez was awful!

He beat Bellichik & Brady at Foxboro in the postseason with Mark Sanchez as his QB for Pete’s sake.

Baker Mayfield needs to shut the **** up. Rex Ryan was justified in speaking the truth. Mayfield is playing like trash right now. Anyone who can beat Bellichik and Brady at Foxboro in the postseason with Mark Sanchez as their QB has the clout to speak up and say whatever the hell they want.

The more Mayfield talks the more I begin to dislike him. He hasn’t done jack **** in the NFL, he hasn’t established himself or earned anyone’s respect to run his mouth the way he does. All he is doing is making players around the league not like him. Earl Thomas pretty much said they would love to shelve this punk for the year to shut him up. He is just so dumb. Thomas is a guy who will late hit him and shelve his arse for running his mouth.

Mayfield needs to be quiet and play football let’s his play speak for him. You don’t see Brady, Mahomes,Goff,etc running their pieholes like Mayfield has done he is becoming an unnecessary burden and distraction. For the teams best interests he just needs to shush.

I don't like Baker either. But, I think you are over the top. The dude is young. He can learn. Rex Ryan is similar to Baker in that he always talked too much, as well. So, he can't throw too many stones.

I am hoping that Baker gets a dose of humility that helps him get his head in the right place. The guy has a ton of physical talent. I heard someone say today on a TV show that his arm was okay. I disagree. He has a plus arm. He is a fighter. He's very confident. He is not afraid of the moment. He has potential to be very good.

But, he needs to get his priorities in order, dedicate himself to his craft during the off-season, learn how to read coverages, and shut the hell up.

I do want to add this. I find it ironic how many of these guys who are making big money from endorsements and they turn around and get angry over the media attention they are receiving.

Two words come to mind: Spoiled. Entitled.

Trolls gotta troll.

I understand it's difficult for the haters to discern the difference, but once again Baker wasn't "talking" he was answering a question.

Baker "talks" far less than most perceive, apparently.

I get it, he's an easy target... but there isn't another player in the NFL the media has taken more shots at than Baker Mayfield. I mean, he never said anything until he was asked what he thought about those comments...

Let me ask, if I posted on this board that I thought a board member was an overrated as hell poster, and if someone here asked that person what they thought of device's comments would that poster respond with, "hey that device guy is fine and I wish him all the best," would that person respond with, "no comment," or would he/she defend himself/herself and fire shots back at device?

I wonder how many here would defend themselves, and I wonder how many of those people are upset Baker does...

If he would have stopped at "if you don't wear orange and brown you don't matter" I'd agree with you, but it was the add on parting shot that looks bad. It doesn't matter if it's fair or not, it's just the way it works. Baker is going to take a beating in the press tomorrow for it and round and round we go. It's dumb, immature, and quite honestly makes him look unsure of himself even more than his play does.

Vers mentioned Baker is a gamer who's not afraid of the big moment. I disagree. Name one big game he's won. Or name a big game he's won with a game winning drive. If he could start doing that stuff, then maybe he can talk a little, but this notion that he acts this way because he needs that fuel to perform...I call BS. No signature wins in the pros to date. With at least a few opportunities to boot. Acting like a jackass all the time. If you're going to act like a jackass, then go win some friggin games.

He's crumbling under the weight of expectations and instead of at least acting like he's working on it, he's doubling down on his ineptness. It's madness.

In hindsight, it's easier to say this, but during that actual moment, I disagree.

Baker was not CLEARLY better. It was all optimism of getting a new toy. And even then, a lot of us wanted him to sit and learn, versus being thrown into the wolves.

And Tyrod would have won more games (as so Hue), if special teams would have stepped up.

Comes with his job. He shouldn't even be reading about him, nor answering this type of questions...

I actually like him not being defensive and blaming others has an excuse,AKA the Hue Jackson move...

If he made the last play on the last game he would be a Hero, now he is a Zero - its in the job description... He will have a shot to disprove Rex this week.

One more thing on Baker talking. A popular defense has been that "Baker doesn't talk, he is answering questions." I think we all know that he is answering questions.

I'm wondering if some of the posters who keep saying that realize that all the players are being asked questions. Players don't seek out media members and start talking about other people. They ALL are responding to questions.

The difference is that most players and coaches know not to run their mouths in a negative way.

Not weird to me...oh the punishment is different..he got a concussion from saying he hated his ex-coach..I know you get what I mean...oh , while I don't dislike Mayfield, I was concerned about his development this year..much like my computer which doesn't like my password into this site, he needs some fixin'..And so does the HC..

He came in and led us to a come-from-behind victory against the Jets. I think he led us to a late score on our last drive to beat Denver. I think he had a big play when the Bengals were trying to come back. That was the time he was taunting Hue. I think that game was fairly close and that pass to Njoku sealed it.

I like his moxie on the field. I like his confidence. I think he has a great arm. I don't question any of that. Not asking you to agree w/me, but I'm just saying.

I think he needs improvement in a few key areas:

--Shut the hell up about other people. [That should be easy to accomplish.]

--Work on his mechanics. It was noted that he drops too far at times and puts himself in the path where the OT is supposed to steer the defender. I also think he is opening that front foot too much. I mentioned that earlier. [He can easily improve on these things in the off-season if he will hire a qb coach.]

--Read defenses better pre and post-snap. [Getting better at pre-snap reads is not that hard if you put the time in. Quickly processing coverages is another animal and may be an innate thing, but you can certainly learn about tendencies.]

If he improves in those areas, I think he will be a dynamite qb because he has a great arm and can be very accurate. I also think the moment doesn't get too big for him and he has a ton of moxie. He's also very strong and can shrug off hits in the pocket.

I think you have good points except for the shut the hell up part. Not so much you as fans and media in general. We don't get to be thought police. I mean we come in here everyday and express ourselves by spewing our personal beliefs on situations that we don't always understand fully. His tongue is not only NOT BROKEN, but it has little to do with football.

There are lots of posters here, players in the media, players active in the NFL, Coaches, GMs, etc. that all have characters bigger than themselves. Baker is no different. He may be getting distracted or it may do nothing to him or it may drive him, do we really know? And just because you or I don't like what he is saying doesn't mean he doesn't have every right to say it. Especially so when the conversation is being directed at him and he is taking shots from others. Trying to shut him up has NOTHING to do with his game.

Those teams were awful last year.

Give me a signature win against a top team.

Win some friggin games that matter.

I think you are wrong about that. I could explain why, but you won't listen. Thus, we can agree to disagree.

Re: the Rex Ryan kerfluffle....

We were all thinking it. He said it. I will say that, by itself, this little tit for tat would've gotten a chuckle out of me (and most people) and that would've been it.

Problem is... this isn't by itself. It's part of a larger behavior that wouldn't be a big deal if he was on top of his stuff out on the field. But he's not, and this whole thing could snowball (poor play leading to more scrutiny, leading to more Baker sass, leading to more criticism and potential distration, etc).

I thought the Rex response was clever, but I can go elsewhere to get a quick chuckle. Focus on the offense, Baker.

Our differences in PP do not apply in football discussion. I value your football POV much more than you might think. No need to prejudge me.

Answering a question by saying something you shouldn't say isn't an excuse. Every NFL players answers questions from the press. Some know how to do it and some don't. Some use class in their answers and some don't. Some think before they open their mouth and some don't.

Blaming the question on the way you answer it is pretty lame.

j/c

FWIW I think we all should be at least thankful that Baker isn't attending press conferences displaying at best a dubious fashion sense (i.e. Cam "whitney Houston" Newton). We can be pretty confident Bake isn't missing any of his marbles.

He also won a state championship in high school.

This was from Freddie yesterday I believe during his presser:



So much to unpack, and I lost some more faith with him after these remarks.

1. You absolutely had guys giving up. Lackluster tackling, pulling up by randall trying to chase down Brieda, the overall lackluster effort on the field was abysmal. Sorry Freddie, they gave up in that game.

2. You did have chances, very few - but you had chances. Its your job as a coach to make sure they are in position to take advangtage of them. On the goal line and your in empty sets again? You stated a few weeks ago that it was dumb - and yet you did it again. Learn from YOUR mistakes Freddie. You didn't there.

3. Yes, you have a lot of guys that have not been in situations in them now. Like yourself! Learn, adjust, adapt. Stop trying to force feed a square peg. Its. Not. Working.

4. "Everybody will recognize that, and the ones in the building - the people who matter - are the ones who will recognize it". This irked me. The people who matter are the ones paying your salary. US. The fans. Prepare your damn team. Because the people that MATTER, can see you have not been prepared 4 out of 5 games. Get it together, or get out.

What would have rather he said instead?

Your post word for word? You're getting mad just to get mad now.

It's a process.

Hold his players accountable.

"We played a lackluster game, had bad penalties, had execution, and all around bad play. There are no excuses for it, we need to get better."

Less is more, sometimes. He is alienating the fan base IMO, by saying they don't matter or know what they're seeing. Its plain as day at what we saw last week. To suggest otherwise, is dishonest and concerning.

No. A thousand times, no.
That's ridiculous ego talking.

You do not matter. I do not matter. None of us pay his salary. None of us matter.

The ONLY people that matter are his employer, his GM, and the men he coaches. Anything else is a grossly over-inflated sense of self.

If fans dont spend money on tickets, merch, NFL packages, etc. does his employer pay his salary?

I am not saying we have a SAY in what goes on, but we absolutely deserve an explanation as to what is going on, and why the team is not prepared, and what they are going to do to correct it.

Its no ego talking - its fact. Without the fans, they might as well be an AAF team. No fans, no league.

j/c:

I really, really hope we don't have another "blame the HC" for everything season.

The only thing you mentioned that has any impact is ticket sales. Everything else that's sold in the NFL is shared equally among all 32 NFL teams and would have zero impact on the income of the Browns.

You may wish to look at the NFL revenue sharing agreement and how it works.

I think you did, I was speaking as a whole. Every team should be held accountable to their specific fanbases, as they all pay for merch and tv agreements that is shared. Once again, no fans, no NFL - no salary for Mr. Kitchens.

Don't take this the wrong way or "clapping back", but it is a Kitchens thread.

I think for the most part, people are VERY aware of ALL the issues the team has had the last 5 weeks, and have been discussing all those issues on other threads. I can only speak for myself and my post, but I didn't want to start another thread on Freddie just on the comments from his presser.

Well, you keep going on thinking that you're part of the group that matters on Sundays. You don't, and you are NOT in any way part of the effort to prepare for, play or win games; and nobody in Berea answers to you in any way whatsoever... but you are free to think that it so.

to an extent you are right, but to an extent you are mistaken. You act like Haslam or any other owner is paying these players our of their personal fortunes. They are not. They are paying the players from revenue created by the fans. If the fans stopped going, they are not going to keep the teams. They wouldn't be billionaires if they did

I don't think anywhere I said I was, or anyone else was. Your missing my point entirely.

Do you think if fans stopped buying tickets across the board, that would be true?

FYI, if a homeless man can have say on who we draft, I would suspect as a overall fanbase we have some say somewhere then, now that I think about it

Actually, they pay them entirely from shared revenues and most of that comes from TV contracts, which comes from advertisers.

The money goes from advertisers to the networks to the NFL where it is then divvied up to the players.

You could hardly be further removed from the process.

You may be right, but his point still stands. If the viewership for Browns games suddenly dropped off a clip, do you think things would just continue on like nothing is happening?

lol, and how much revenue would they be making from networks if the fans didn't buy tickets? You keep thinking that money is just coming from nowhere. Its not. It comes from the fans. What you are speaking of, do not happen if there are no fans. Please see the AAF if you need an example.

No fans, no revenue from TV. Advertisers? who exactly would they be advertising too, if no one watched or went to the games?

You can say its coming from other places, but the fact is, those other income streams are soley based on FANS being and buying their product. If there are no fans, there are no other income streams.

SMH.

So you think that teams who are winning, or at least compete are going to join you in your little crusade? Good luck with that. Most people don't think they're entitled to the same things you do.

and yet, teams with terrible fan support and virtually nobody watching their games still have the same amount of available cap space from the same sized pool of shared revenue as the teams with people buying merchandise and watching their games......

#jaguars

Freddie Kitchens is a freaking jeanious.

What's wong with you people's??

You have made a big loop around from Freddie owing you an explanation because you are a fan to how the entirety of the NFL gets paid.

Everybody in NFL world knows that interest is generated and revenue is gained by winning.. you have ZERO impact on whether we win or not... ergo, you don't matter.

Add to that the FO and staff have ZERO control over what you do, how you react, what you think... ergo, you don't matter.

Add to that there are millions of fans with a wide variety of opinions that it would be impossible to say the right thing to appease them all... ergo, you don't matter.

You are confusing being a voluntary fan of a football team with being the equivalent of a major shareholder in a corporation... the shareholder gets honest information and access to decision making because they have power and influence, you have none... so they owe you nothing.

3–36–1

I am happy with Freddie for now and I am rooting for him

Miles to go before I sleep

Well of course Freddie could go full Trump and alienate as many fans as possible and financially the Browns as an organization wouldn't be phased by it.

But if the fans were truly as insignificant as some suggest, then Hue Jackson would still be our HC after a season of half empty stadiums and tickets selling at literally $8 a pop.

Would I say that Freddie specifically owes the fans an explanation for anything? Not per say, but if he's such a stand up guy he'd at the very least feel some degree of accountability to the fans, if not for the good feels, but for the practical matter of him being canned if the stands look like they did in Hue's final days.

5 weeks in and we still have ZERO idea what our identity is, or what Freddie's vision or philosophy is. And from where I'm sitting it's not even on the horizon

The Steelers suck
The Bengals suck
We've shown we have the talent to expose the Ravens.

We only need to be AVERAGE to have a shot at the playoffs. 9-7 makes us contenders. If Freddie can't even accidentally get us to be AVERAGE with this roster and this years Division...

I agree with your last part, unfortunately we’ve been far below average in our 3 losses (and probably even 1 of our wins). This team, to this point, looks like a pretender ... mostly because of our QB play and coaching

We've been woefully unprepared, probowl players now look like 3rd stringers, and we lack any sort of consistency.

This is Freddie's fault to not put his players in position to execute. He can claim "we didn't execute", yet it's your job to draw a successful plan these players can execute.

It's your job to make sure you aren't forcing Baker to throw to complicated routes where he consistently throws behind receivers.

Yep, we’re horribly under coached and it’s probably cost us 2 games thus far

Browns OC last season that is credited for improving the offense and Baker Mayfield. Because of Kitchens, Baker was a candidate for NFL rookie of the year. I still think Kitchens was the wrong choice for HC.

Only the special team coach is any good...

We had a punt blocked yesterday.

Just one

I actually think our ST has improved, while both D and O have regressed..

That's what I was hoping to see this year, and the most important thing IMHO, progress.

I never liked GW, and I like Kitchens has a person, but... it was clearly a mistake... but I trust Dorsey, I don't think he will keep this for much longer.

Is this something we should take serious?

No.

Yes. Dorsey built this team to win now. Not wait 3 years while the rookie HC learns if he has any coaching skills.

If we dont end the season strongly, I feel they will let him go.

I hope you are right. I think you are right, but who knows, anymore.

I truly love the internet and how we can access so much information so quickly. I love the interaction, but man, there is a negative aspect to it because so many people who don't have a clue read some tweets and blurbs and act like they are experts on a topic.

I am not an expert, but firing Freddie would be beyond ignorant. And remember, I was a guy who was said to "hate Freddie" before the season started. LOL

Especially with wannabe athlete message board jockies.

Should have kept GW.
No one thought it was cool.

GW is a major problem waiting to happen... you saw how the Jets D played, targeting our players.


Don't think GW has a place in this league and soon it will catch him too.

While I wanted an experienced coach, I understand why GW wasn’t hired as HC (and won’t be hired by anyone to be their HC)

Should have kept GW. I don’t care about bounty gate or any of that other stuff. The guy brought discipline and results by winning. He gave the Browns an identity and that identity was beating the **** out of their opponents. I said it then and I’ll say it now, we made a huge mistake not keeping Williams.

Williams would have kept Zampese, Wylie, and Kitchens(if he wanted to stay) we would be a much better coached team this year with Williams at the helm.

First off GW defense last year failed often especially in critical situations remember?

Second, he has had opportunities as a head coach. Didn't work out so well.

Third, there were plenty of openings if he was all that he would have been at least considered.

His bluster wears off quickly.

His bluster may wear off quickly. But the W-L record after he took over last year does not.

What's done is done ... I wanted GW as HC, but happy to let Freddie take a few lumps and learn and improve. Let's see how he does when we get to the "easy" part of the schedule and let's see how the Ravens and others do when they face the tough part of their schedule. Winning the AFC North is still very much on the cards.

With that said - I didn't see ANY bluster from GW once he was named interim HC. He was calculated, measured and prepared. His W/L record spoke for itself. The teams discipline and preparation for games was far ahead of what we have seen this year .... can you let me know if you saw any bluster and outbursts from GW as acting HC?

He wasn't the only factor in the second half success.

GW has been in the league a long time. It is not like he is
unknown to the GM community.

If he was a such a hot commodity why has no one been interested?

Dorsey had plenty of time to evaluate GW as a head coach.

His record as a head coach is 22-34.

All I can say is look at the penalties from the last half of last season to the first half of this season. That speaks volumes. The discipline that was here the last half of last season has disappeared. I'm certainly not saying he would make a great HC. That really wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point I'm making is he certainly brought something to the table that we don't have now.

If you want discipline, a reduction in penalties, hold players accountable for their mistakes, take real advantage of a good RB like Nick Chubb and later Kareem Hunt to open up the passing game then look no further. Time to bring back ERIC MANGINI!!!!

Yeah, last year looked great compared to how we're playing now with even more talent. And the penalties mean nothing, right?

GW’s overrated as a DC ... he’s a one trick pony ..

I’m shocked Pit thinks ... actually stunned that he thinks GW Not being here is the reason were a penalty machine ...

There’s plenty to beef about with my boy Freddie but i’m not sure what more he could have done about the penalties ... he punished them every time they committed one in TC ... short of benching MG every time he goes offsides i wonder what the menZas think he could have or should be doing ...

Freddie’s given the dolts plenty to gripe about ... just not sure why the lack of discipline from this group falls on him ...

I sure hope this season gets straightened out.

If this turns into 5 or 6 win season and Freddie is in the noose; I will go stick my head in the sand.

I don't want to hear about another head coach hire. If that happens then it falls on Dorsey for the hire. And Dorsey is the best GM this team has had in I don't know how long.

We had plenty of guys to choose from. There was no shortage of "new hot guys" and guys who had been there before.

I feel like when you make a hire like Freddie. You have to anticipate a learning curve. Monken and Wilks are both experienced guys. They were hired to help Freddie in their roles. Dorsey has overseen all personnel and coaching decisions.

At some point you have to stick with someone even if he struggles.

The exception is if it is clear from inside that the players have no respect and are not buying in. I think those types of issues would be glaring and probably from the beginning of camp.

I have some doubts about Freddie but at the same time he deserves a fair chance. One year or less is not a fair chance.

I want to preface this by making a comment that it's hard for some of us old-timers like you, Pit, bone, myself, etc to talk anymore because there are so many posters who always make this about sides. I am not even going to post on the Baker thread again because as much as I tried to keep it about football, there were posters [and one in particular] who were focused on making things personal. Congrats to the winners.

With that said as a backdrop, please take this the right way. I am not calling for Freddie's head. I am not saying the book is out on him. I am not saying he can't get better.

What I am saying is that the team committed too many penalties under Hue. They didn't commit many under GW. They are committing too many under Freddie. He talked a lot, but I'm not sure I bought all of it.

That does not mean that I think we should have kept GW as our HC. It doesn't mean I want to get rid of Freddie. But, thus far, the team isn't playing like a team and is undisciplined. Far too much talking from certain folks, including Freddie. And the guy who leaked info to the network last week about who was to blame for the team's troubles should be GONE! I can't believe no one has talked about it. I have brought it up twice and not one person has commented. How the hell do you blame Robinson for the main reason the team is losing? Bro, that is some pure BS!

Right now, and this is just my opinion, but I think the three biggest reasons for our poor start are Baker, Freddie, and team chemistry. Ironically, those were my three keys to the season.

With that said, perhaps they get things worked out during the break and Baker plays better, Freddie coaches better, and the team plays as a team rather a group of individuals.

I hope that did not come across as confrontational. I am just trying to talk the way we used to.

You are exactly where I am on this. There is no way that I would call for Freddie to be gone at this early stage of things. Simply no way.

But for those who wish to pretend otherwise, you pointed out a fact they can't deny. They can dance around it, make snide comments and pretend the circumstances are different. But they're not.

Under Hue the penalties were bad. Under Freddie the penalties have been bad. Under GW that wasn't an issue. I guess some would love to pretend that is just some strange coincidence. But that is just foolish.

WE have to stick with Freddie at this point of the season. First off if we fired him it looks bad for any potential coaching candidate. It would be the 2nd year in a row that we fired our HC in mid season; not a good look. Secondly, it would be Bakers 4th coach in 2 seasons. Not good for a QB that is still developing. Lastly, who would you get right now that's any good? Who's out there Rex Ryan? Ridiculous. I think we should stay with FK for the rest of the season to see if things can be straightened out. If the bottom falls out we reevaluate everything then. JMO

So you are agreeing with me?

Yes I am.

Nice football take ... you must be referring to yourself when you got personal and referenced me in your post and then claimed I said something I unequivocally did not. The you run away and come here and state this B.S. .... If you want to pretend to take the high road - then don't try to make these passive aggressive, sly swipes at other posters and stop telling everyone what to post. Calling out for your friends to support you, which is what you are doing here, is weak.

As for Freddie - I have not seen anyone say he needs to go other than Eve in the post game thread and I don't know that she was serious just venting. I think the vast majority of posters are on the same page with both Freddie and Baker: Freddie is a rookie HC and needs time, he's taken a huge jump in his responsibility and needs time. We've been inconsistent, but we've also seen flashes (like going up 20-6 vs a very very good Seahawks team.)... Likewise the vast majority of posters see Baker struggling with multiple issues and think he needs to improve while also recognizing there are a lot of other factors negatively impacting his performance. I think any rhetoric suggesting there is a ground swell of posters calling to fire Freddie, or that people blame all of Baker's struggles on everything except Baker is manufactured controversy.

I haven't responded to your personal attacks in ages and this will be my last post to you. I am just letting you know that I will report you each and every time you resort to outright lies and personal attacks that are directed my way. You are making up lies in your latest post and you lied in the Baker thread.

Not the hero we deserve, but the hero we need.

Interesting - I can point to the fact that you stated: "posters like 888 are always saying "you hate Baker," as if that is a viable argument to defend Baker's performance." .... which is a total lie and I responded to that.

1. Show me a personal attack that wasn't a direct response to your antagonistic post.
2. Show me a lie.

Oh ... that's right. You can't. Funny - here we are again, and you are allegedly a victim, you are policing the board and telling everyone what their posts mean and what they do and don't post about, what they should and should not post about and getting personal .... and there common denominator is yet again just one single poster.

So, does anyone want to talk about the discipline issue? Or, the leak to Fox Sports about how Gregg Robinson was our number one problem? Or, the three main reasons why we are not performing as well as expected? Or, is the PFF all about personalities?

If you would stop making it about personalities, then it will stop being about personalities.

I was hoping Kitchens would get fired during the bye. Oh well, may have to wait until the season is over.

I agree.

Hey, I haven't lost a game yet.

Really? Every thread?

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

How are we feeling?

Says the guy who in another thread that I just got done reading made a snide remark about Eve.

He does not see his double standards. At all. Ever.

Freddie is in over his head in a major way and needs to shore up being able to manage a football game in it's entirety if he ever wants to be a true HC. His play-calling has been atrocious as well, tbh. Give up the play-calling and focus on the overall game.

#FreeToddMonken

He sees it.

j/c

‘I don’t coach penalties; we beat ourselves’ Freddie Kitchens


With comments like that... it won't be long now before the team turns on him.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/10...-ourselves.html

from the article:

Kitchens actually did coach one penalty in this game, the fifth false start of the day on fourth and 1 at the end of the game so he didn’t have to use a timeout. The Browns trailed 27-10 with 2:37 left at the time, and ended up kicking a field goal to produce the final margin.

“I didn’t want to use the timeout and I wanted to go for it,’’ he said. “We had half of our guys running off, half of our guys running on and I wasn’t giving up right then by punting the ball to them.




actual article:

By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com
FOXBOROUGH, Mass. — Freddie Kitchens didn’t blame himself for his team’s 13 penalties for 85 yards in Sunday’s 27-13 loss to the Patriots.

“I don’t coach penalties,’’ Kitchens said. “I’m not answering questions about penalties. I’ve never once, in 20 years of coaching, coached somebody to take a penalty. Except in a situation, where it would help you clock-wise, clock management-wise. So, I don’t know, I don’t know.’’


Kitchens actually did coach one penalty in this game, the fifth false start of the day on fourth and 1 at the end of the game so he didn’t have to use a timeout. The Browns trailed 27-10 with 2:37 left at the time, and ended up kicking a field goal to produce the final margin.

“I didn’t want to use the timeout and I wanted to go for it,’’ he said. “We had half of our guys running off, half of our guys running on and I wasn’t giving up right then by punting the ball to them. The only chance that we had was to convert for a [first] down and then we didn’t. The defense’s job is to go out there and stop them and they did, so it gave us a chance. I was still trying to win the game.’’

Beckham wanted more chances to try to beat the Patriots

Three of the other false starts were committed by tight ends or receivers, which should never happen unless a team’s communication system is faulty. Baker Mayfield took it upon himself to get those cleaned up, and he better do so in a hurry, because the Browns are on the road again next week in Denver.


“I’m going to continue to practice different cadences throughout the week until we grind that out, and then come Sunday, we'll be completely focused each and every snap to do that one job,’’ he said. “Nowhere else besides doing your job and knowing exactly what we have to do. That's how you get it fixed.’’

The Browns lead the NFL with 70 accepted penalties, and they’re the first team to have 13 or more penalties in two games this season, including 18 in the opening-day 43-13 rout by the Titans. They’ve also been flagged a league-leading 88 times with 16 declined and two offsetting.

“It's just the consistency and a lack of discipline and accountability right now on Sunday seems to be the problem,’’ said Mayfield. “I've said we can be a great team when we do our job, but we just haven't translated it yet.’’

Kitchens pinned the loss entirely on the three turnovers — on three straight snaps in the first quarter — and the penalties. The turnovers came on two rare Nick Chubb fumbles and a Baker Mayfield interception on a two-handed shovel pass to Jarvis Landry. They put them in a 17-0 holed that was too much over come, although they came close, closing that gap to 17-10 in the third quarter.


“Tough night guys, everything we said we couldn’t do and win the game, we did,’’ Kitchens said. So, and it all happened in the first quarter. I was proud of the way they kept fighting. Somewhat got back into the game there at the end, but just couldn’t get back fully into it. Can’t turn the ball over and can’t commit penalties. We ran the ball well, we did exactly what we wanted to do in the run game.

“That was the game plan, we did it. We held them, we stopped them. I thought our defense played well enough to win. Offensively, we just can’t turn the ball over. And that was the game.’’

Mayfield cites ‘lack of discipline’ but vows to lead better to turn it around

Kitchens wouldn’t acknowledge that it was particularly disappointing that the sloppy game — played in a driving rain — came after the bye, when the Browns had resolved to clean up the mistakes.


“No, it’s disappointing anytime it happens,’’ he said. “Because you know going in that, we can’t continue to jump offsides, we can’t continue to do the things that get you beat. It’s very evident, that that’s what is getting us beat. It’s turnovers and penalties. That’s it, turnovers and penalties.’’

Kitchens has a hard time being frustrated with Chubb, who’s been the heart and soul of the team. After going 21 games at the start of his pro career without a fumble, he’s now coughed it up three times in the last two games, including once in the loss to the Seahawks. In New England, Joel Bitonio kick the ball out of his hands once and Jonathan Jones tomahawked it out at the 4 other when he was going in to score and try to close the gap to 10-7.

“It’s very out of character,’’ said Kitchens. “It means more to him than anything. You know, Nick had a good night. He holds onto the ball, he knows that. I’m not killing Nick Chubb about it, because Nick Chubb is going to be there in the end.’’

Chubb responded with 131 yards on 20 carries, but the Patriots are almost perfect when they win the turnover battle, which they did 3-0.


Chubb rebounds after two fumbles

“It’s not shocking, that’s how people usually win,’’ Kitchens said. “They don’t turn the ball over and they don’t (commit) penalties. You can’t have that big of a discrepancy in penalties and 92-2 now [when they win the turnover battle. We expect more out of ourselves; we’re just not getting that right now and that needs to change. Everybody in the locker room understands what needs to change.’’

Despite the trifecta of turnovers against the No. 1 takeaway team in the NFL, the Browns close the gap to 17-10 in the third quarter.

“We had enough resiliency to kind of weather the storm and get back into the game,’’ he said. “We just weren’t able to finish it.’’

Tom Brady responded to the scare by finding James White on short screen pass while backed up at his own 16 on third down. White rumbled 59 yards up the left side, with safety Juston Burris closing to make the TD-saving tackle. But Brady eluded Myles Garrett, escaped to his right and hit Julian Edelman with a 14-yard TD pass that made it 24-10 with 6:11 left in the third.


“That’s bad,’’ he said. “It’s not good. We’ve got to get off the field there. And I think everyone on defense would say that.’’

The margin of victory would’ve been a lot worse, but Denzel Ward blocked a field goal and the defense held New England to 2-of-6 in the red zone.

“We had a lot of confidence going into this game and we got a lot of confidence coming out of this game,’’ Kitchens said. “Because we understand why we lost the game. We lost the game because we turned the ball over and penalties. We need to stop committing penalties. Alright? We need to focus and concentrate on enough on staying on sides, so we don’t end up in first-and-20. Alright? That’s how you win games. And then, take care of the football.’’

The Browns fell to three games behind the 5-2 Ravens and a half-game behind the 2-4 Steelers, who play the Dolphins on Monday Night Football. It seems dire right now, but their schedule gets easier down the stretch while the Ravens play a bunch of winning teams.

“Everything’s in front of us,’’ Kitchens said. “So win the games that we’re supposed to win and we’ll be fine. It starts in Denver, that’s who we play next, so let’s have a good practice Wednesday and see where we’re at, at the end of the week. It’s as simple as that. Just do that, win one game and see what happens. There’s nine games left.’’

When someone says "I don't coach penalties", does anyone actually know what that means?

I get it. He is saying that they are not being taught to commit penalties over and over like they are. They are not coaching to get penalties, he is saying its on the players lack of focus.

What coach teaches committing penalties?

It's a dumb comment by Freddie. He's essentially saying, 'I don't teach them to commit penalties' (unless he's trying to save a timeout).

Obviously, no coach teaches their team to commit penalties. It's a completely inane comment.

It sure is his job though to get the mistakes fixed and instill discipline and accountability.

Exactly ... you can coach them NOT to commit penalties.

You can set an example - you can emphasize .... and finally you can hold people accountable. Obviously if coaching wasn't a factor then every team would be about the same. But ... that's not the case. I dug up last years stats. Hue had about 50% more penalties as HC than Williams once Williams took over. Impact was immediate. That's coaching.

We may not coach penalties, but maybe we should coach NOT committing penalties

You realize that's the point he is making, right? He is SAYING that the fans and media are acting like its being coached to them, when its not.

he is saying that the players need to start being more disciplined.

I feel that HE needs to instill the discipline. I am not trying to take Freddies side, the penalties show HE DOENST HAVE A SIDE. I am just explaining his train of thought to you and why hes saying that.

j/c

Going down the list of current HC’s in the NFL, there aren’t many who I”d choose after FK, even amongst the rookie HCs. Heck, I think Kingsbury would be better for Baker

As a previous player I know players commit penalties for three reasons:

1. They are physically overmatched. See the SF game. Our oline was physically overmatched. Not the coaches fault although the coach can scheme to limit this disadvantage

2. They are in a bad position (bad scheme) relative to their equally talented opponents. Definitely on the coach.

3. They are undisciplined and unfocused. This most definitely is on the coach, although it is hard to point a finger at a certain thing the coach is or is not doing to create this situation. Maybe urgency to be accountable is not there.

I believe our problem is number 3. Unfortunately this is the worst of the 3 for the coach, because its basically means either his management style or the way people respond to him is what drives the problem. Fixing it probably means changing your personality and I don't think that is likely.

I also think fatigue can lead to it too ... mental mistakes, out of position, etc ... and that as well could be contributed to coaching/training/preparation

I agree with these 3 reasons, and I think its #1 and #3.

Our Oline is not that talented, and I think FK instilled these guys to play like this during camp. We saw it when we practiced with the colts with all the fights, etc. Freddie preached - we aint going to back down or whatever he said. Your seeing that now.

Just like with AC, coming off suspension, he starts. No accountability. all these penalties, no accountability. OBJ dropping crucial 3rd downs left and right, no accountability. on and on it goes.

^^ Agreed!

j/c....

Maybe the league is chock full of stupid guys and we hit the lottery.

What is our record with an average head coach? For example, if Jay Gruden is our head coach what is our record?

You play the way you practice, so if we play sloppy, practices must be even worst.

Penalties its all a matter of coaching: concentration and discipline.

All in all, I think Kitchens should have been replaced after game 1, the way we play its inexcusable.

We have 591 penalty yards so far this year on 70 penalties. We've played seven games. 591/7=84.4285714286. Marlon Mack is the seventh leading rusher in the league averaging 84 yards per game. We are giving teams one Marlon Mack per game just by our own incompetence.

Yup, teams don't have to beat us, they just have to wait until we beat ourselves...

Penalties and turnovers... Dorsey has to step in soon.

"Perfect practice makes perfect." I believe that's credited to Vince Lombardi.

Football coaches often run guys before practices. As a hockey coach ALL conditioning was done AFTER we practiced skilled plays and drill. Why make em tired beforehand?

Not saying that's Fred's MO by the way.

I wonder if Dorsey regrets the coaching decision he made? Should have left things the way they were at the end of last season.

I think he probably has regrets but it's probably too early to say he regrets the overall decision.

I don't think hiring Gregg Williams was the right choice and am grateful he's not our head coach.

Agreed.

Don't think they are over worked, quite the opposite. If anything they look like that are not getting enough work..

LOL ESPN ppl already saying Freddie will be fired

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=27948700

Kitchens was a bad fit from the start
He had never been a HC at any other level
Yet Dorsey is going to give a job that only
31 other men can claim in the world ?
Like I said Kitchens lacked the resume
And credentails to be a HC.
But his fan club wouldn't hear of it
He's more built for the Cleveland Muni League

As a side note.. I dont agree with all the decisions Freddy has made but name ONE last week that cost us the game.. Name em all that u think contributed to the loss ? U wanted to RUN the ball.. He ran it. U wanted more quick hitters.. u got it. Nothing he DID or didnt do cost us the game. The loss was sealed the minute we had the three quick turnovers. Blame who u want on those plays , but it wasnt play calling. The PLAYERS have to take some responsibility at some point. Just about everybody seems to make a mistake as some point.. It hasnt been the same guy or couple of guys that u can just bench to send a message. Do we need more disipline ? Im all for it.. Id probably make a player sit for commiting a stupid penalty but eventually we would run out of players.

Why not Mike McCarthy?

I thought he would be our hire last year ...

With Dorsey's deep ties with the Packers, I thought it would be a done deal.

We were interested in McCarthy
What I just looked up was that if we hired McCarthy, he had to keep Freddie as oc and McCarthy declined

Not sure if that was entirely true or just a rumor put out there.

There's this...

Mike McCarthy comes to mind...

If we are going to lose, I'd rather it be because the other team if better, not because our HC make poor decisions and is arrogant about it.

At this point I'd rather have Jeff Fisher running this team, and that's saying something

Lima isn't necessarily a clown...i enjoy him and Ken in the morning...but he's largely irrelevant.

For what it’s worth, it was in this article

https://nflspinzone.com/2019/01/09/cleveland-browns-mike-mccarthy-bullet-dodged/

Two things we would have had with GW would have been player discipline and player accountability. I'm just sayin...

Better D too.

GW is not going to last very long in this league. His mentality has no place in the NFL.

umm he has been in the league for like... 30 years.

#GoodOleBuyClub
#TheCocoon

I think he deserves at LEAST the year, but if we lose to Denver with a kid that hasn't thrown an NFL pass, it might get ugly for him.

I trust Dorsey on this one, but I think its not a matter of time, not at the level we have been playing.

Something has to be done to the coaching staff, bring someone to mentor FK, for example.

If you throw someone in a pool and after 5 minutes he is not swimming and is going down in the pool, you should throw him a rope...

J/C

From an article about "what went wrong in KC". A lot sounds familiar.



I highlighted parts that seem to have happened here already, with Hyde (which worked out well because we had Chubb) and looks to be what is happening with Callaway over Higgins with Callaway playing over him.

We see that again with Callaway and Freddie seems to be the same way when it comes to players committing penalty after penalty.

I think Dorsey is a great talent evaluator. But I think he has made some big downfalls on this team so far.

1. Callaway - letting him get away with the weed in the car with just a warning, THEN not doing anything after he gets in trouble again backwalking from those threats, just to let him START as soon as he gets back???? No accountability here. And we see that with the team as whole with penalties and play on the field.

2. Getting rid of players because they were not his guys. We have seen him jettison decent players that could have helped this team for guys he drafted or signed that just were not as good.

3. Freddie - I don't think John wanted someone that would rock the boat. So he chose Freddie in PART because he really didn't deserve the job, and Freddie would be beholden to him to do things John's way. Which is exactly what this article pointed out.

4. Handling of players - I think it was wrong to start Hyde over Chubb, obviously we see that. The kid is crazy special. But to trade Hyde, and not had told anyone - that's discourse brought on by the GM. Not a good look. It also now looks like hes going to trade Higgins, and the coach is throwing a good kid and hard worker under the bus for no reason seemingly other than its not a JD guy.

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/06/29/kansas-city-chiefs-john-dorsey-fired-nfl-notebook

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article158155634.html

I wasn't sure where to post this so I'll put it here. The best bosses I ever worked for were the ones who were tough but fair. The employees did their job because there was a certain amount of fear if they didn't there would be repercussions. When you had a weak boss people didn't care as much and slacked off unless you were a good employee that cared. It seems as though we have that going on here which is directly related to the penalties and miscues. Freddie has been stressing this from the 1st game and we haven't gotten better. Do you think this would be going on with a BB coached team or Bill Parcells, Joe Gibbs, Vince Lombardi etc.? I doubt it very much. The players have to step up and do their jobs but I think we are lacking some in the coaching. JMO

Yeah, the Chiefs suck!

Where did I say the chiefs suck? I simply pointed out that there were reasons John Dorsey was fired. Fired from a team that had made the playoffs under him. It begs to question. We are seeing a lot of the same things here as to why he was fired in KC.

I fear for your reading comprehension sometimes.

That has nothing to do with it. It's the information you posted that's the issue. The reason Dorsey was let go was a power struggle between himself and Andy Reed. There have been other theories such as you posted bantered about, but most everyone knows that the Chiefs had to either part with Reed or Dorsey because of the power struggle between the two.

I can read and comprehend just fine. It's just that the made up scenarios in the article you posted are flawed.

It was reported by some as " Management style and lack of communication ", but it was an obvious riff between himself and Reed.

Just got back from the grocery store...I was wearing my Browns beanie and a rando guy says to me "sorry about your coach, man".

2500 miles away and fans of other teams are already feeling bad for us. Even when it seems like there is hope the Browns misfortunes, pain and embarrassment never seems to go away.

One day we shall rise (again).

I had a similar experience and it was prior to the New England game.

Strangers are more sympathetic than friends in anything related with sports...

My friends keep on sending me the milkman meme... they are enjoying my misery.

Im not sure Freddy is going to make it here, and I don't think Dorsey is a very good GM.

I think Dorsey is pretty good at identifying talent, but there is much more to being a good GM than identifying talent. I don't see Dorsey as a guy that "has control" of the Browns which he should be. I don't see him as being that assertive guy, the SI article linked earlier shows he isn't a very good manager, and he doesn't reallyknow much about how to run an organizational structure.

Personally, barring a complete turnaround this offseason,i'd part ways with both Dorsey and Kitchens. I'd go out and hire an actual GM, not a glorified scout.

I really like Mike Tannenbaum. He worked in the Browns personnel department back in the day when Lombardi was hired by Bellichik when he was with the Browns.

Tannenbaum had a run as General Manager of the NY Jets from 2006-2012. During that time his team had a reg season record of won 57 games and lost 55 games, which is actually pretty good considering it is Jets and the NY market is tough, and Woddy Johnson doesn't exactly make it easy. He also Hired Rex Ryan, had 2 AFC Title Game appearances,and made the playoffs 3 times.

Why Tannenbaum? Because he has experience. He has shown that he can deal with strong personalities at both the ownership and coach level with Woody Johnson and Rex Ryan, He proved he can run a scouting department at a high level, he knows how to draft and evaluate input from others, He has a firm control of the organization, and both suits and coaches alike like the guy and are willing to go to bat for him.

At the end of the day he assumes all the command but takes all the responsibility, he has big shoulders, he is something this organization can lean on much like the Steelers leaned on Tom Donohoe for a long time.

Taunenbaum is also good at picking coaches, Mangini had 2 winning seasons in 3 years, and Rex Ryan had 2 playoff berths in 4 years.

Taunenbaum is a guy that can set this organizations base where it needs to be in front office, in the scouting department, in the coaching staff, and the players. He is a guy that can get this ship pointed in the right direction so we can get out of this quagmire once and for all. He will be here a long time because he will be successful, and 10 years from now we will be able to hand it off to someone else and be in good shape.

This is our Tom Donohoe that will get things turned around for us longterm. Just my take.

Dude, too right! It has come to the point where I am watching the score of the UofO games hoping they lose to some crap team so I can return the smack they give me (Ducks fans are really obnoxious). After every Browns loss my phone blows up and then I have to deal with the sarcastic smiles of colleagues at work on Monday. Probably doesn't help that I have three bets riding on their season (I had two last year and I won them both...I was a tad bit more confident this year and the colleagues I made bets with are enjoying the fact that we have dug ourselves into a hole). I still believe I can win them, however.

J/c

I’m not worried about the talent part of our team. I’m worried about the leadership part ... both from the coaching staff and from the players. It seems like we have players on their own islands with no plan, accountability, discipline, or togetherness.

There isn't much you do like, huh?