Look, I think Baker Mayfield has all the physical tools and talent to succeed the NFL. I don't really think that is up for debate. He has a good arm, is pretty accurate, has moxie, isn't afraid to chuck the rock, and overall seems like a perfect guy to be an NFL QB.

Our issue, as we have seen so far this year...putting in the time...im not talking about coming in and watching film in Berea either, im not talking about showing up to all the non-mandatory and mandatory team practices and activities either...what I am talking about is more than that.

Do you want to know Tom Brady is as good as he is? He isn't the most physically gifted, or the best arm, etc...but what he is is absolutely INSANE in his work and preparation.

Baker Mayfield said he was "taking time away from football" do you think Tom Brady was taking time away from football? He already had a clicker in his hand.

What folks don't understand is Brady has set up the perfect life for this...he sits at home with his wife and kids 5, 6 hours a day with game film and clicker, he does this AFTER practice, he does it ALL Off-season, its all the guy does...

Baker Mayfield needs to listen to what Ray Lewis told Kevin Byard last year about who he is dealing with in Tom Brady:



Tom Brady has been so good for so long, because there are no more masters in the NFL when Peyton Manning, Ray Lewis, and Ed Reed retired...Brady is the only master left...and he is just playing against kids...kids relying on athletic ability alone...and that isn't enough...you will never beat a master, nor Tom Brady just on athletic ability.

This isn't college anymore Baker Mayfield, This isn't Oklahoma where you can goof around all offseason. You better start listening to what Lewis is telling us about Tom Brady...you want to be the best? you want to win a Super Bowl? then you better get yourself a clicker, and outside of 2 weeks a year you better be buried in film everyday including the offseason, you better be dissecting our division, our schedule, etc...

Manning and Brady were so good because they lived football, and if you want to be even close to be good as they were...you better get started.

Just watch the 1st 4 minutes of the video, its VERY enlightening...

I hope so.

Any opinion supported by a show with Skip Bayless, Shannon Sharpe, and Ray Lewis is probably not an opinion I would agree with.

My opinion is this -- we've played two games.

It is hard to argue with that opinion.

He wants to win, he knows what it takes. He will do the work. He is no Johnny football.

Trash post.

settle down bro

also, i have a dirty mind cause the typo in the title had me lolololololol

When you look at greatness in any sport it is never about talent alone. Never.

There is no questioning what Brady, Peyton and many other great athletes have in regards to work ethic and dedication.

Not sure what you are saying in regards to Mayfield?

I seriously doubt that given where Mayfield has come from and his career to date that he has not put in the time.

Never heard that he doesn't work hard. Manziel? There was plenty of evidence that he didn't.

Unless you know specifically through direct contact that Mayfield is somehow goofing off I do not think it fair to speculate.

He has not even played a full NFL season. I saw Matt Ryan a very good quarterback now a veteran make mental errors and poor decisions.

When you look at Peyton's or for that matter any of the great quarterbacks and watch their first season. You think they knew it all? Did people question them?

First you need experience. You need to learn how to study and prepare. You need to learn how to study your mistakes and how to correct them.

Brady sat behind Bledsoe. He had to learn just like every other guy. Belichick got to watch him and aid in his development.

Baker is a very driven guy. He had to be to achieve what he has to date. He did not become the first player taken in the draft on pure athletic ability or physical dimensions. Quite the contrary.

I don't know Mayfield. Don't have to the ability to know what he does 24/7. I have seen what he has done on the field.

And for a guy who has yet start game 16. He has accomplished plenty.

How will he do going forward? I don't know.

But I have no reason to believe that he will not work hard to accomplish his goals. His history indicates he works to accomplish goals.

If he has set his goals for greatness then he will have to follow the path set by others to get there.

I think it’s going to take a while; our staff may have been under the impression that he was ready for such a “graduate level” offense ... but it’s not his strength PLUS he doesn’t have the experience yet either.

I think we’ll pare down the offense and build him back up.

Yeah, LOL and it wouldn't let me change it

Agreed!

Im still slightly worried about Mayfield's drive though. To be a top 5 NFL QB you pretty much have to be buried in football all year except maybe 2-3 weeks...

He took time away from football after last season and just trained in the weight room mostly. I get it, he got married to a hot wife and im sure she kept him quite occupied

Now though going forward...he has to become a student of the game, he is going to have to put in more time and work harder then everyone else...that includes taking work home with you most of the year. If he is willing to follow through, I have no doubt he will be in Canton one day because he has everything else.

This Knight dude has always been ragging on Baker one way or another.

Like another mentioned: Trash post.

I'm not sure i get this.

First, it's the quality of work you put in. Not the time. Results are what matters, not time spent.

And often, you need to take a break, recouperate, and then get back at it. I do it all the time at my job. I work very hard, and i get to a point where i say, "This isn't working. I need a break". And that's what i do. I give jobs/instructions to the guys working below me, and i tell the Captain that i'm going to bed. Because there's a point where you're simply not working productively. I see all the time people who work crazy hours and get nothing accomplished.


I don't think just because he got married and took some time to himself, means anything about his commitment to football


Not one bit. And Brady goes on vacation after the season every year. He's got a house down in Costa Rica for goodness sake.



I'm sorry, i just don't get this post. Never, ever, has there been any question about effort. Only when it was found out that Tyrod Taylor was showing up extra early to the facilities to work out (and Baker wasn't). And you see where that got Tyrod.......



He threw 28 TD passes last year. His rookie year. He looked like he had a better sense of what was going on than Andrew Luck did when he came out. Better than any Rookie i've really ever seen. Right now, defenses are out to confuse him. It seems to be working. I'm sure that pisses him off, and he's doing everything he can to get better at this. We have to find ways to counter that as well (maybe not snapping the ball on one every single time!).

But i don't think for one second, the Baker isn't fully committed to football. I mean, this guy walked on everywhere he went. And he took the job everywhere he went right away.


As was said earlier, it's been two freakin games. Game 1 we were clearly outcoached and both LTs got ejected/injured. Game 2, our offense was better, but clearly it needs to get in synch. I'm sure they recognize that, hopefully they're finding the correct ways to work this out.


But i'm not sitting here after two games questioning Baker's committment because he got married in the offseason. Guess what. Brady is married. So is Peyton. So is Brees. So......... I don't get it

Yeah, I wouldn’t say he’s struggling now because of a lack of commitment. .. there’s no way that any of us would really know that. I’d say it’s probably more of a product of: a new system that goes against his strengths/experience, the defenses’ ability to confuse him based on their study in the offseason

He MIGHT be guilty of believing every game or season will be like last years great moments and that just isn't so.
I believe though he's well aware of what it takes to succeed in the league and will work hard. Sophomore bumps in the road is what this is about...

FK hasn't done him any favors...the playcalling looks nothing like what worked last year. I think theres issues with Baker right now..but he's proven in the right circumstance he can perform, FK needs to prove he can make it work. Bottom line, is Baker has alot more rope than FK will.

I don't normally rag on someone's post, but this is ridiculous. A 2-time walk on turned Heisman Trophy winner being questioned for the amount of time he puts in? Unfortunately, I fear this is a serious question.

I think any quarterback would struggle in an offense where he's getting his team to the line of scrimmage with less than 4-5 seconds on the play clock and not having ample time to read the field.

On top of that, we've faced some pretty good defensive coordinators with a ton of experience. We face another this Sunday. It seems to me they are throwing all kinds of disguises at Baker. And even the experienced QB gets fooled occasionally.

I saw the breakdown of a play where Jarvis read the defense for Baker and Jarvis was even fooled. I like the idea of Baker being the field general and being in charge on the field. I also don't think it will take "a long time."

I'm not as concerned with Baker as much as I am with the coaching at this point.

Nothing to see here, move along....

He can be very good and could win superbowls. I don't know that he has the type of obsessive personality that you need to become like a Manning or Brady. Very few do. I don't see Mayfield as having that type of personality.

I think Brees fits into that conversation of "chessmasters" by the way.

J/c

Clearly we are back to needing to draft a QB in the 1st round of the draft.

I’ll reserve judgment on this until after this week

j/c:

Most of the posts are about trashing another poster's opinion or making fun of him. It's really hard to have a real football conversation on here w/out all the personality crap.

I think Baker will be fine.

I (nor you) know what Baker or any other player does at home in his spare time. I want ALL of our players to be committed to becoming great. I do understand people have lives too though. People have to be able to live outside of their 'workplace.'

Season is still young. I think we should all just stay tuned for now. I think its fine to question the product on the field, but I'm gonna hang tight on questioning the work ethic, unless theres a reason too.

This was a joke, right?

haha come on Rish, yes it was

j/c:

Hello Refs. Would you please fix the thread title? I am not a prude, but the use of "head" vs "hard" is fairy creepy.

I think Baker is going to take the sophomore slump. I said that before the year started. He had too much going on.

However... I think he will be great. I think he will be great in the league for a long time. This year, he will be average to below average and that will push him to be great in the future.

Today, he has to live in the bed he made this year.
- It will be good for him and painful for us.
-He took too much time away from football this past year. (legit reasons or not)



and a side note...

he should feel really bad now that we all know Baker is the reason Juke has a concussion and a broken wrist and will miss significant time.

He has got to get it together or he will hurt more of his teammates. Hopefully... this will be his wakeup call before we lose OBJ to some inaccurate passes.

No offense not trying to jump on your opinion.

However, there are 24 hours in a day. I don't know how anyone possible knows how Mayfield spent his time?

Maybe he did not work out with Jordan Palmer. But how does anyone know what else he has done?

How much game tape he has watched? His clicker?

What he has done or how he prepares?

Do you think he made the throw to Njoku intentionally bad?

Is he the only quarterback to make a inaccurate throw?

"He has to get it together because he is going to hurt more teammates"? Has there been any indication from any of his teammates, coaches here or in his past that he is a bad teammate who does not work hard?

Do you believe that he has not practiced to win games on a team of 53 other players with the same goal?

Has anything been published that has accused Mayfield of not working hard and preparing hard to win?

Do you believe you can predict his season this year?

You are welcome to speculate but I can find no reason to agree.

I think we could have an intelligent conversation here, but it's more about ripping other posters than it is about the reality of the situation.

How about we look at it like this? No criticisms of Baker. No defending Baker by trashing other posters. Instead, what are some things that might make Baker an even better qb? Is that possible? Or, are the Baker guys just going to stunt conversation?

Always open to discuss those types of questions.

However, speculating about how someone spends there time without any kind of possible evidence?

Predicting his season or the Browns because Mayfield has not prepared?

Sorry, it is not defending him. It is questioning how anyone can know those things?

No more so than people already saying he is a "franchise qb" or is going to be "better than Farve." Also, there are some facts out there, bone.

I would really like to discuss what I would say to him if I were his advisor, but it's hard to be objective about the guy w/out getting trashed on this board.

I would not say these things in a negative way, but there is substance behind my points. I just don't want to have this fall into the same old name calling and insulting crap that usually occurs on here when he is discussed.

This topic is banannas because being a quarterback is not about hard work. Full Stop.

Things that would help Baker be a better Quarterback.

A running game focused offense.
A counselor so to speak, (maybe a Robin to his Batman) for Freddie Kitchens on gamedays during the game to help with the decisions of the playcalls, "in the moment" as the game situations present themselves,

We've observed and repeated, going back to the Bud Carson years and so forth, that Having a head coach also call defensive plays, or offensive plays is too much to have on one plate and ends up badly.

( Hard Work! is defined as moving, lifting, pulling, carrying, more weight/mass than the average, And that is NOT what the Quarterback is doing out there)

It's not a question of effort! It's not a question of getting up earlier in the morning,
The game of chess is not a test of hand strength!

And that is why I think the topic title as a discussion point is Banannas,

So, What Baker is doing as far as game study, I don't think that people get to see that, not all of it,
and if I'm wrong an you do great, and if he ain't doing it, if he ain't doing the preparation that's great too

because they sure aren't starting Drew Stanton.


Here's another, Getting. excuse me, "investing" in some top notch Tight ends might really help Bakers game too,

and I don't mean being relevant in only 10% of the offensive snaps of games you start healthy in either,
(and that dig wasn't on Njoku's injury, it's including his usage from games last year.)

J/C

I think the TE position is way more important to us than might get credit ... the media talks about OBJ, Landry, Chubb, Hunt, etc ... we have some REALLY nice hood ornaments. But we need that STEADY/RELIABLE/VERSATILE player at TE. We need a Heath Miller type guy. Someone who’s gonna be by Baker’s side for a decade. Maybe not the flashiest or puts up the best numbers, but that can be counted on

Like a Mark Andrews.

Mark Andrews would be money on this team.

Agreed

They are not trading Mark Andrews.

Perspective is important.

Franchise qb? Work ethic? A little different. One is an opinion. The other is pure speculation based upon zero evidence. I am unaware of a single person who has direct experience with Mayfield say he doesn't work?

As you know. The quarterback position at the NFL level is extremely difficult.

There is not a single quarterback that has come into the NFL that I am aware of that knew it all. That didn't make mistakes. That didn't have times they struggled. That were not dependent upon the team around them.

Baker has stated publicly I need to play better.

At the same time he has had a damn good start in his career. He did just win and throw for 325 yards.

I have listened to Monken, Lindley and many others from head coaches, retired players, retired quarterbacks.
Have not heard any of them not believe in his potential.

Potential of course has to be realized. He has started 15 games. Time will tell.

I don't believe perfection from that experience is possible.

At the same time I would not speculate on how bad he wants to be great or how hard he is willing to work.

I can only go by what he has done and what information about him is verified not speculated about.

Alright, fine. Glad to know that you don't even want to hear my opinion on the matter and that your mind is already made up. Later, bro.

lol obviously; i think his point was someone with that skill set or consistency

Where did I say I was not interested in your opinion?

I simply stated what I believe to be true.

He didn't find his way back to CLE unil febish and he still had to get married

I can say all of this with conviction because my son was quarterback for 5 years and he is still a pitcher of 7 years.

Last fall, my son broke his elbow during fallball. He couldn't start workouts until 2 months later than usual. It took him about 1.5 months to catch up from where he was the previous year against his growth expectations.

Baker simply hasn't looked better than he did at the end of last year.

Sorry none of the above accounts for his time other than what was shown.

He "may have" woke up on his honeymoon and spent 15 straight hours on film study?

I am not saying he is Tom Brady. His history is an open book test.

"He was more inaccurate than last year" When last year? In the second half when he got some games under his belt. When changes were made in the offense?

Social media shows Brady on vacation jumping off a cliff
into water. Does that somehow mean during the off season it is football 24/7?

He has not missed a practice. He has also spent time in charity events. These are athletes that have learned to manage their time. They also know how to prepare. There are simply to many factors to correlate any of that into this years two games.

What do think happened when OTA's happened? Was a single sentence written or spoken about Mayfield not looking sharp.

Are you aware of what goes down all during camp? The time spent on the field. The time in position meetings. The time on joint film study. To face your team in a huddle and call a single play and execute it in front of all watching very closely. It is a big responsibility to face your teammates have them not believing in you. I do not for a minute think Mayfield takes that lightly.

I don't recall Mayfield doing anything outside of normal behavior. No traffic tickets.

He has started 15 games. I am willing to see what takes place. Then look and review the events in context.

can't unsee it now.

File this under the pot calling the kettle black.

J/c

I’m not sure that any of us has the evidence to question Baker’s work ethic and dedication to his craft in the offseason. Not saying he’s Tom Brady ... not saying he’s Johnny Manziel.

I think his big hurdle is not just the offense, but adjusting to other teams’ adjustments to him. That’s where he’ll start improving now

Guys, please don't take this as me bagging on Mayfield. I just don't think he put in the film time during the off season that he needed to and the tape shows that. I really think he thought this year would be like last year, wake up call to him is this isn't college, this isn't Oklahoma, you can't get by on athletic ability/arm strength alone.

Look at last years tape most of Mayfield's throws were 1st read quick hitting passes, this year he is being forced to read defenses and so far he hasn't been able to do it hence why he has twice as many picks as TD's.

Right now Mason Rudolph is SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of Baker Mayfield in his development of being able to read defenses. Numerous times last Sunday, Pete Carol and company showed different pre-snap and post snap coverages to Rudolph(like Willaims did to Baker) and Rudolph was quick to recognize the coverage and throw the ball to the correct area Whereas Mayfield struggled with this big time.

You think Williams is a decent coordinator, just wait till next week with Wade Phillips...he is the 2nd best defensive mind the NFL only behind Bellichik. I won't be one bit suprised if Mayfield doesn't struggle. Hopefully he doesn't, but its a real possibility...he looked completely lost Monday night, He failed a basic test of being an NFL QB.

Its easy to do the math and figure out why Mason Rudolph was able to easily recognize man coverage despite Seattle showing Cover 2, cover 3, cover 4, and even man coverage pre-snap than changing to a different coverages.

Its because Mason Rudolph clearly spent a hell of a lot of time in the film room this off season studying. He didn't look completely lost and confused like Mayfield did Monday Night. I think we will see a whole lot more of this and nothing short of an offseason worth of film study is going to fix this, its too late now into the season he has to do the gameplan from week to week...this is Bakers fault for thinking he had the NFL figured out...

I warned people of this last year...Baker is going to have to study hard if he wants to be an NFL QB...you can't get by on talent alone at this level. I know he walked on at college, I know he Won the Heisman, I know he set records...but most of that is done on pure athletic ability and talent...He just didn't understand the type of study and film watching it takes to be a great NFL QB..its a lot of boring time, and a huge time commitment...

When Peyton Manning came into the league as a rookie, sure he played well, set records...know what he done that 1st offseason? He spent it studying film, watching guys like Marino and Farve, learning how they carve up defenses.

Brady spent time behind Bledsoe, but you bet your tail end he also spent a lot of time studying film. He knew he was going to have to work harder than everyone else because he was a 6th rd pick, too many mistakes and a 6th rder isn't a huge investment they would move on so Brady had to dig deep and find an edge.

I like Mayfield, I hope he is our guy at QB for the next 15 years. Talent just oozes from this young man, he easily our best QB prospect in 30 years. He has to want to be great though...this offseason he needs to be a film watching machine, I have no doubt he could be in Canton one day, but he needs to recognize that he doesn't have things figured out, he needs to humble himsef, and he needs to study the only master left in the NFL, and thats like Brady. It takes a lot of time and boring time to study a master, but Mayfield wants to be as great as he pops off with his mouth, then he needs to get to work and get started.

Just for grins take a look at the first year numbers of guys like Elway and other HOF quarterbacks.

Look at just TD's and int's.

You made some points that I agree with. But once again I don't buy speculation on time spent off the field.

Once OTA's and team activities begin a lot of time goes into being prepared.

Rudolph we shall see. And that goes for Baker as well.

You can not accomplish much in football at OK or in the NFL without dedication.

When you make statements like "it is Baker's fault for thinking he had the NFL figured out."

Total conjecture.

It is fair game to judge players performance on the field.

Speculation into time spent outside of practice and games and what a person does has no basis in fact. Technology has come along way and with it communication. If you can speculate about film study. Then you can also speculate about the time spent in communication between Baker his head coach, his OC and quarterbacks coach as well as the quarterback room.

Claims made one way or the other regarding time spent in preparation is not verifiable.

if you watched any of those videos... he openly says that he took time away from football.

yet... you are saying that you don't buy that he took time off?


c'mon man...


there are plenty of articles saying he was struggling do you still not believe it?

Joe Thomas is now getting after him.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/08...eason-game.html

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/...and-unsettling/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zI-pEscdsE

https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/conten...-than-football/


https://nypost.com/2019/06/14/baker-mayfields-blunt-leadership-is-causing-browns-problems/


https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/...40-e60320f36c40

That is not what I am saying. Of course he took time off. Who does not?

Your speculation into how he spends his time off the field is not verifiable. You have no way of knowing what he does in regards to film study.

To somehow try and correlate what he has done to prepare for the season or for a game to inaccuracy. Like that is the only factor. Please. You may as well try to tell me you know how many passes he has thrown in practice since OTA's and somehow that was not enough for a game to be accurate.

J/C

Can anyone explain how they know exactly how much time he has taken off and how many hours he as spent in the film room? Seems if you are making a claim that he hasn't spent enough time in the film room, that you should have some statistics to back that. IF not, there is absolutely 0 truth or backing to your claims.

Based on your arguments, we could say its the oline that didn't spend anytime in the gym and that's why bakers pressured so much forcing him to make bad throws.....

The problem...well one of MANY .. is that your equating two bad games to a lack of film study, but completely neglecting the fact we are not running the same offense than we did last year, a different tempo, different players, a sub par oline, and the added pressure of national attention and media scrutiny. Yeah, im sure NONE of that factors into his 2 bad games, and its all on your scientific studies of his off time.

I wonder if some of the ones questioning baker are the same ones saying OBJ wasn't going to be ready for the season because he skipped OTAs, only to watch him go off for 160+ yards and a TD. ….

SMH.

After these last two games if anyone were to go to Post Game Thoughts. My comments are right there regarding Baker's play on the field.

I will praise good play and be critical when appropriate.

I am not defending Baker in what is available to analyze.

I will defend any player when it comes to speculating as fact what they do in their free time. I don't know and neither does anyone else.

What is fact. Is that to my knowledge nobody with direct knowledge of Baker's dedication to winning, preparation, coach-ability, or accountability to teammates have offered a single criticism.

This is all based on one game by Rudolph, and no real solid evidence when it comes to Baker.

I think it’s an awful take. I mean, you’re basing this off very little evidence.

There’s never been any question (besides your own) of Baker’s work ethic and film study. In fact, from what I remember, he blew the staff away at the combine and his private interview.

From there, I thought he read defenses better than pretty much any rookie I’ve ever seen.



I’m not seeing what you’re seeing. You’re basing his lack of work this year off two games, him getting married and a tweet about playing Halo. I think that’s ridiculous


And This judgement of Mason Rudolph is a bit early here. Very early.

Guy’s thrown 19 passes this year. None last year. I mean, that’s not much of a sample size to tell you much at all

I think people see a different perception of Mayfield on the field this year. He certainly looks different than the last half of the season last year.

Most of us seem to think it's due to a total difference in scheme and how poorly our talent lines up with the new scheme. Those are actually things that can be backed up with obvious positions of weakness at the OT, TE and FB positions. We simply lack the ability to protect him on long developing plays and the way our opponents are disguising their D's along with our O getting up to the LOS late isn't a positive either.

Still others are looking for other reasons or to combine issues which includes relying more on gut feelings and perceptions.

Agreed, and personal biases against the kid.

Maybe for some. On a personal level most people know I wish he would just shut up and play football sometimes.

But that has nothing to do with how I feel about him as a player or hard worker. I have no problem separating the two.

I wasn't pointing you out. Even in your criticism of him, you are at least fair in your critiques. But you have to admit, the kid gets a lot of undeserved crap around here from people looking for ANYTHING to bash him on, and such as this OP, are way off base or deserved.

I thought I had pretty much covered that on the post you quoted me on above. But in case there is any doubt, I agree with you.

So he took time off. He had just come off a tremendous season that really started for him his senior year in college. Then the pre-draft workouts, then coming into the pros, then being thrust into a starter's spot. He also had to settle into a new life, a marriage, and get his financial house in order. I think that accounts a lot for the "sophomore slump" that so many pros experience.

I'll wait and see how the season progresses. Personally, I see 8-8 if we're really lucky this year and that'll be good enough to set us up for a few years to come.

I'm not going to go nuts over the Rams game because there's no way we beat them. The Browns aren't that kind of team yet. They will be but it's just not there yet.

dogg, in June of 2017 baker began preparing for the Oklahoma season. Football was continuous for him into mid January of 2018. Then prep began for the combine. He was drafted followed by rookie camp , otas training camp, and a 16 game pro season thru end of December 2018. 18 months of virtually continuous football. And you are annoyed he took a break?? Really?? I think it was probably good for his physical and mental well-being.

That said, I think next off season should be and will be a different matter. Hopefully he will apply himself to improving himself. I am not sure if the cba prevents a player from working with his position coach but either he does that or seeks help elsewhere. I do think a qb needs to be careful about having too many sources giving him different advice and creating confusion. We don’t want that. But baker has always worked hard to excel and I expect that to continue.

So baker sets rookie records over 13 games and you use 1/2 a game to determine that mason r. is way ahead of him. I wonder how many gms would take mason over baker right now? Not many.

I see issues with the offense but I wonder how much of it is expectations.. we didn't expect to come into this season and see Baker from last year, we expect much better than Baker from last year. Giant expectations, build-up, and hype followed by a really poor week 1 opening, it's going to take some time to get over that both statistically and in the perception people have.

His stats are skewed because of the egg the whole team laid in week 1, Baker being a part of that... But constantly being behind the chains with penalties didn't help. He really has come up against the perfect storm.. week 1 the whole team let each other down, week 2 he plays a weaker team but a D-coordinator that knows his tendencies better than anybody in the league..

It's year 2, teams have adjusted to him.. it's up to Freddie and Monken to counter adjust the offense to put him in good positions... I'm not worried about his willingness to work hard...

See - this is the garbage that makes me think this post is entirely about your pre-disposition to hating on Baker than any serious football take.

You're proclaiming after half a game from one rookie QB how superior he is while dismissing a half a season where Baker basically played as well as or arguably better than ANY ROOKIE QB IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE NFL.

It smacks of posts from last year which posed the question - do we still need to take a QB with our first round pick?

Others have been kinder - I'll call it what it is - garbage.

This is the NFL. Anything can happen, any week.

I think we have a shot against the Rams. I wouldn't put money on us. But i'll certainly be excited about the game.

I'm putting money on us.

You all should join me.

This post is........at best poorly thought out.

To be honest, it’s more hot garbage than poorly thought out.

Hey, more insults from the Baker crowd.

Are you currently or ever been an athlete?
Do you or does anyone in your immediate family play college/semipro or professional sports?

Most everyone who is in that position knows when someone slacked in the offseason. Baker slacked. You can see it.

IDK why you are defending that tooth and nail?

I have said countless times he will be fine etc. I hope he leads the team to hundreds of victories and more super bowls than Brady. He is a professional and he will learn from it.

I still don't understand how or why you are trying to blame everything else in the book. I have provided you with tons of references saying.. Baker said he slacked. Freddie said he told Baker to take time off. I have videos of Baker saying he took a ton of time off..


He looks different.
He is not reading the field or he doesn't know all of the offense well enough yet.
When he does read the field... he is late on his throws

Someone also changed his mechanics and when he is releasing his passes.
Last year in his drops he was much more smooth, in rhythm, and he looked comfortable.
Last year... he would do his crab walk and fire usually right after the end of his drop

This year, he does his crab walk and doesn't know what to do with the football.
He is too busy moshing up and down like a moron vs finishing the crab walk and firing the football. *indication he is still learning his new mechanics and or the playbook
He is not driving his front foot/knee and passes are sailing on him. He is not finishing in a triangle when there is a clean pocket.
He is not throwing the ball in under 3 seconds.
He is patting the ball before he releases it.
He is doing things that players pick up bad habits when they don't have enough practice or bad coaching.
All of these things happen because he didn't get enough practice.


Here you are saying... NOPE. That's not true at all! No ones really know how hard Baker worked etc etc etc

Mixed right in with more negativity from the anti baker and freddie crowd.

Well, it is an unprovable, ill-informed, and inflammatory post,

What should it be called?

I didn't insult anyone.

But, I'll stop because I see that you are back to following me around again.

A lot of negativity up in here.

Remind me not to play any video games 7 months before my job starts. Come on now, a post from January about playing a video game is suppose to underscore a lack of drive and commitment?

A bit harsh I feel.

I'm fairly certain I didn't say you insulted anyone. But, carry on with your anti Baker and anti Freddie agenda. It's fun to read.

I don't know if that is true. Did he miss mini camps or sit out any practice sessions? The coaches aren't allowed to have much contact with the players when it isn't NFLPA allowed.

Now, that said, I agree with a lot of the other points you made.

One mitigating factor is as a rookie, that is a long season going from college season right in to the NFL draft process. He needed some down time last year. He also got married.

But if Monken has tried to change his mechanics, that is going to hamper things.

I’m not really sure why Monken would try to change much period, let alone Baker’s mechanics.

You all are much smarter than I am when it comes to X’s and O’s And understanding schemes, etc ... all I know is from the eye ball test this offense and Baker’s performance are way worse than last season. It doesn’t even look similar ... and Baker, who I thought was extremely decisive, confident, and accurate last year ... looks awful now

See - this I agree with 100%. Although "Awful" is too strong a word. Awful compared to last year ... sure. Below average this year as it pertains to comparing him to other average QB's in the league.

Why? It could be a number of things, including time with OBJ and company, the multiple changes in personnel, Freddie being a first time HC and adjusting to the enormity of the job, play calling, changes in the scheme, being asked to make changes at the line which is all new this year, Williams having trained against him for a year ... hell, if you want to speculate on stuff that we have absolutely no way of knowing or proving, it might even be that in the off-season when the young man got married he didn't focus as much as he should have on football.

It's probably a combination of all the things I mentioned and depending on your dislike of Baker, you can throw in the pure speculation part too. It may even be that he's bulked up too much and muscled up too much, I can't be sure but he might look slightly beefier.

Bottom line I hope for improvement and quickly ... in all aspects of his play and the play calling.

Yeah, awful in relation to last year of course ... and I agree w/your reasons. It’s probably a myriad. I just know the offense doesn’t even look similar with anything we do.

And quickly would be an understatement haha ... we’d better get WAY better within the next 2 weeks or else our season is toast

Given how well the O under Kitchens/Mayfield worked last year ... really worked outstandingly well. I wonder why in the heck it wasn't the basis for this year's O. I mean - add wrinkles, plays, formations.... but build on what worked? ... to me that smacks of thinking they are smarter than the rest of the world but that's pure speculation on my part.

Could be ... just that they want to be even more difficult to defend and catch people off guard, but it’s simply not working (and I honestly don’t think this new approach will)

When in doubt, KISS ... keep it simple stupid

Is Baker having trouble with his reads or are guys not open when he is reading them? It kind of seems like our reads are going deep to short. We have guys open underneath at times, but how do we know what order in the progression they are?

I think we'll dial up more quick throws as the season progresses. Someone may have gotten a bit too excited about his new toy (OBJ.) I'm not sure who that someone is, Baker/Freddie/Monken or more likely a combination, but we have time to sort it out. Teams are trying to take OBJ away, but he's good enough to beat them anyway. It would seem that we might be expecting him to win a bit too much and might be slowing down as we wait for him to do so. OBJ didn't play much in the preseason. Is it any wonder he's not fully integrated yet?

The Patriots often "struggle" in September, but everyone forgets it come December.

This is a valid point, but there’s a few problems with that thinking: if we struggle early and end up like 2-5 this thing could fall apart. We don’t have the history, franchise, or leadership for the players to trust IMO. FK is not BB. Baker is not Brady.

Not only that, but we have such a brutal stretch that we’ll end up 2-5 or 2-6 .... the Patriots “struggle” and still end up 4-2 or 5-2

Playing in the AFC (L)east has its benefits. *shrug*

It could fall apart. Or it could come together. I think its too soon to run around claiming the sky is falling (not that you in particular necessarily are.)

No offense, but I don't like when people try to compare us in a favorable light to the Patriots. Our two organizations and teams are light years apart.

I do agree that it's too early to say the sky was falling, but I tried to warn folks this off-season that it was too early to anointing them as a great team.

I am quite positive that Baker will put the work in.

He has been a winner everywhere he has been and nothing has been given to him.

I think he is a bit too hyped up and consistently trying to pull off great highlight type plays. I am sure he has studied the tape of the last 2 games and we should see some corrections.

I also believe the coaches should make some adjustments to limit his desire to hold the ball for so long.

Speaking for myself, I did know that they wouldn't be great. I thought they would start out pretty mediocre, but instead they started out pretty awful. Big regressions in areas that I wouldn't have expected (even with people on here chirping about it... like team discipline).

I think I'm going to go back to the same mindset of the past 5 or so years... withhold judgement on the team until the end of the year, because the team has so much growing to do over the course of the season.

j/c

I think for people to be objective they should be looking at the difference in scheme and protection for the obvious answers. It's plain as day. It's been pointed out by those that actually know the game better than most posters here on this board.

I believe the rest of the theories are conjecture at best.

My history is irrelevant. I will mention that I coached and played baseball at a very high level.


This is going nowhere.

You have convinced yourself that you know Mayfield's every waking moment.

That somehow what you have written ties in a bow all that is Baker Mayfield. And no other factors are involved.

That his mechanics have changed.

Nothing else to say.

"Wade Phillips on Browns QB Baker Mayfield: “I’m not sure anybody realizes how good this young player is, early in his career.”

We have posted about it.

I don't consider myself to know better than most posters on the board. I am not an X and O guy, I am the first to admit.

But if I am PLAINLY seeing these issues, that says something.

And saying the guy with 19 career NFL passes to his name is already significantly better than the guy who contended for ROY last year isn't an insult?

dc, I certainly do not want to be labeled part of the “baker crowd”. There are few things worse than being seen as supporting our quarterback. Has there been anything in baker mayfield’s history to suggest that he has been a malingerer??That he does not want to work hard? Or has his history been that he comes in and busts his butt to make a team as a walk-on , works even harder to win a starting job and then works even harder to win the heisman.

Anyone with an open mind can see what the evidence shows.

I agree. Two games after setting the bar awfully high last year. My answer is yes. We are going out of our way to criticize BM. And the looneytoons "experts" are hardly worth my time in my opinion; I have little respect for them. Drumming up negatives so you can pretend you had an interview is wretched. Any other lesser QB's getting this vile type of treatment and belittling second-guessing? BM is only a target because of his success and work. My answer is yes. He just is learning more about what will be required. All this tarnishing does not help.

I'm not saying we're the Patriots. However, they are an example that teams can struggle early and still go on to do well.

Sadly we seem to be getting closer to the Patriots in a few ways ("criminal" owners, taking in other teams troubled but talented cast offs, etc.) Let's hope we can get closer in the winning in January way, too. We've a long road to go.

J/C




Another coach impressed with Mayfields WORK ETHIC

I'm certainly not questioning Baker's work ethic. Because like I believe about every poster on this board, with the exception of maybe one, I don't think any of us know about the off season to say how much time he spent watching film and preparing.

But I would have to ask how much Dungy actually knows about those same things? I mean he may have seen him a few days in camp, but that's a snapshot and not a full view of his off season.

I know there are those on both sides of this that have their heels dug in. But I think my question is one that deserves to be asked.

That’s a calming voice from Dungy as I’d expect ... the hope is he’s going through growing pains (as is our coaching staff) ... we gotta learn quickly tho

We don't have to learn quickly.

The most important thing about this season is Mayfield. And the 15 seasons after that.

If it takes some lumps this season to continue his growth than so be it. The idiot fans will turn on him but hopefully we have an organization in place that uses their heads.

There should be growth seen as the season progresses. If not we have a big problem. That problem may not revolve around Mayfield, but the fact is we have far too much talent to show little to no progress from where we are now over the course of the season.

Define growth.

What is it exactly you want to see?

If the rest of Mayfield's season plays out like the first two games, what does that mean to you?

It could mean that the coaching staff isn't designing the scheme to fit where he is in his development. It could mean the play calling isn't designed to take advantage of his strengths. It could mean that he isn't progressing as one would expect. It could mean a host of things.

I would have to take a look at what is and isn't going on over the course of the season to make an informed opinion at that time.

That's why I said it may not revolve around Mayfield.

But we do have too much talent on O not to be more productive. At the present time with the limited amount of information to go on, it looks like the scheme more than anything else to me.

I was talking about how some are insulting other posters. Not the player.

But, for what it's worth......saying that Mason is better than Baker is something I totally disagree with.

I do think there could be an interesting discussion on Baker, but it won't happen on this board.

Baker has never been sacked in a 2 TE set.

Has anyone told Freddie this and asked him why we don't see more 2 TE sets?

Bc our TEs suck.

2 TE sets? With Harris and Brown. ugh

I might be the only one, but I agree w/you. Here are some things I know:

--Our OTs are not the best, especially Hubbard
--Baker holds the ball longer than he should
--Those two things taken together spell trouble
--The Browns did better last year when they began running more 21, 12, and 13 personnel
--This team has a plethora of weapons, including OBJ, Chubb, Landry, Higgins, etc. We will eventually have Callaway and Hunt. These players are very capable of winning their battles.

Thus, I don't think our TEs need to be great, but the extra blocking should help the offense.

I was talking about this the other day. Because of all these things, Freddie needs to begin with running more, then working in quicker, short drop timing plays that allow the extremely talented receiving corps to win their battles and force Baker to get rid of the ball more quickly, at the top of his drop. He has the arm and the accuracy to do that effectively. When they get those two things workings, play-action will open up and so will longer pass plays. Right now everything looks like a cluster frak with him only reading half the field and waiting for the long play to develop. Whatever it is they think they're doing now, isn't working.

oddly enough... the announcers on SNF are pointing out these same things.

You had different announcers than the rest of us then... or you heard what you wanted to hear instead of what they actually said

jc

my biggest worry was that week by week, this thread would go from mind boggling to "ehhh what if he has a point".

please....lets turn it around quickly.

I don't know him personally but I'm sure Baker is putting in the time. He is one good OL away from being great.

and a good coach/scheme ... and he’s gotta own up too

Baker is not reading coverages quickly enough and is often making bad reads. That has to be owned, too.

Not sure if there was a misunderstanding but I wasn't maligning Baker or anybody defending Baker.. I was, in fact, defending Baker myself... but I will do so as objectively as I can.

I think Baker has and will work hard, be a good teammate, and want to be here. With that said, I'm not 100% sure that his work this offseason was focused on the areas where it should have been. I don't know exactly what he did so I may be off base. But based on the first 3 weeks of this season, Baker's 2 biggest areas of improvement need to be:
1. Defense recognition - He has been confused consistently when his pre-snap read is incorrect and they jump into a different defense.
2. Read progression - He seems to get rattled and "panic" when his first read isn't available which has led to sacks and unnecessarily bailing on decent pockets.

I think he will figure it out but seems to me he needs more time in the film room and less time in the weight room... just my $.02.

Baker needs to shut up.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/baker-mayfield-antonio-brown-instagram-shade-022040157.html




Baker Mayfield takes classic shot at Antonio Brown on Instagram
Yahoo Sports Jack Baer,Yahoo Sports 11 hours ago
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It really was only a matter of time until Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield aimed his well-known penchant for shade at free agent wide receiver Antonio Brown.

[Watch live NFL games on the Yahoo Sports app, here's how]

Brown, as many know, is in the middle of one of the most demented few months for a player in NFL history, including feuds with former Pittsburgh Steelers teammates, cryotherapy frostbite and an ill-advised attempt to paint his unsafe helmet so he could practice in it, among other things. He is also facing sexual assault allegations and has been accused of harassment from a different sexual misconduct accuser, which means it could be a while before he returns to the NFL.

With all of that context, it appears Mayfield — whose team has disappointed with a 1-2 start — just couldn’t resist when a commenter on his Instagram post compared his behavior to Brown’s.


As of Friday night, Brown has not responded to Mayfield’s snipe ... yet.

Brown is just a day removed from a highly personal Twitter fight with Los Angeles Rams safety Eric Weddle, who has played faced off with Brown several times as a member of the Baltimore Ravens.

With another former division rival taking shots at him, it might only be a matter of time until Brown logs on. Outside of training at high schools and participating in depositions, he doesn’t have much else to do.


link to the twitter post:



https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1177702915039023105?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1177702915039023105&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Faaq%2Fyc%2Fhtml%2Fembed-iframe-min.2d7457d4.html

I’ve already grown tired of the stupid noise with this team ... and it only gets worse with each loss

He does need to shut up but at least that one was funny as hell ...

Hilarious!

And yet baker is the one with the police video.

It was. Until Brown fired back pointing out that the only place Baker would say that is on twitter and never to his face because AB would light him up. Then he pointed out that Baker has done nothing in the league.

Sometimes when someone refutes humor with facts the humor loses its luster.

Not to me ... i still think its funny as hell ...

I think it was funny as hell watching Brown point out the obvious. While Brown is certainly a head case, Baker once again decided to shoot his mouth off where it didn't belong and Brown pointed out Baker hasn't done crap yet in this league. At some point somebody has to remind you that you have to earn the right to run your mouth.

I think it's funny that Baker cries about outside distractions and noise from the media and then draws more attention by having it out w/some regular Joe on social media.

Self inflicted wounds.

Agreed. If I was in the situation Baker is in I'd be working my tale off to get things right with the job at hand not worrying about social media and what's being said. But that's me and not everyone is like me.

I would say setting the rookie TD record was something. Going 12 for 12 in the redzone as a rookie was something.

I hate twitter, but this is what today's society is. As far as being a distraction, I don't see it. Typing out some words on your phone in down time is hardly going to set one back.

If Baker was lighting it up now, it would be called swag and accepted. Since he is struggling, people are using this to trash him. IMO, it is all bull.

People who don't like his cocky attitude will always take shots at him. That's just the way it goes.

It was funny. I dont mind the smack talk, its entertainment, but he needs to back it up on the field.

Well when it's him opening his mouth, people are certainly going to give him a dose of his own medicine.

I think AB was talking about actual things like winning the division. Or maybe one of those shiny rings. When you're 1-2, have a QBR of 41.1 and have thrown more int's than TD's, it's probably not a good time to be running your mouth. Just sayin'.

I've reached a point where I hope an opposing DE shuts his mouth for him.
This team,especially the QB,has become impossible to root for.
I'll take physical over finesse any day of the week.
Hello Buffalo

I certainly don't wish anything bad to happen to Mayfield. He has the skill to be a very good QB.

But sadly every time he opens his mouth I think he makes the target on his back that much larger.

So far...

I'm officially embarrassed that Baker Mayfield is the QB of the team I root for.

Stay off social media and win some football games.

I’m not to this point yet, but stuff like that gets very old when you don’t win games

I'm right at my limit with this dude...seriously.. and this is a reflection of Kitchens not having a spine.. keep your players focused..on and off the field. You guys are being blasted as over-hyped nobodies, and you're just fueling the fire.. put that effort in learning to read a defense. If he don't win tomorrow...its going to go off the rails fast i believe

Dude has lost more games in his career than he has won. He has more picks than TDs this year. His completion percentage is less than 57%. His QBR is 41.1.

But, he is leading the league in commercials made and talking smack about other people.

H9w many times you going to post the same thing?

What? I haven't posted that before.

How about you allow me to worry about myself and you concentrate on what you post?

Deal?

J/C

I wish they let their play do the talking. Actions speak a hell of a lot louder than words.

This team is getting harder and harder to support with all this nonsense. Signing people that throw women into door jams, a coach that can't reign in outspoken individuals, and just a general lack of discipline. This almost makes me miss Eric Mangini.

Not sure what's more amusing, reading Baker's tweets or coming here and reading the many posts that think he needs to shut up...

It's not too surprising that a huge Baker fan would resort to insulting other posters in an attempt to deflect the attention away from Baker's own comments. Peas in a pod.

Were u subliminally telling him to post it 9 more times ...

LOL

I'm not surprised that the Baker haters are overreacting.

I dunno why we have to be called baker haters.

I guess wanting our QB who is off to a terrible start to shut up on social media and focus on winning games is considered hating now. Odd.

Our team already has a massive target on our backs because of the hype. It’s not hate to not want our star QB to make things worse.

This targeting concept is 0verrated.

Only the Jets, with "Bounty Greg Williams" did anything ressembling targeting. And so Myles went and promptly squashed their QB like a bug.

And they knocked it off. Anybody who values their QB aint gonna try that ish.

Exactly. There are so many guys who have played or coached in the NFL talking about how Baker is putting a huge target on him and his team because NO ONE has talked like he has talked. And they add that he hasn't even proven anything.

Considering the source i’m not sure what else u expected ...

Bake’s struggling with reading D’s and his accuracy ... we know he’s accurate .... we’ll see how long it takes him to learn to read D’s better, assuming he ever figures it out ...

The target thing is so overblown. First, he's talking about a guy who is not even playing anymore. I've yet to see him talk smack on a team we are about to play. So how exactly does talking about AB effect the Ravens? Why would that make him more of a target?

I hate that it seems like I am defending him, when my point is more about how overblown comments on social media have become to fans and the media. The trash they talk on the field is probably a hundred times worse.

Sorry lead, but the missing spines are the folks on this board who have turned on our quarterback ( the qb who had the best rookie qb season in history ) and our coach after three games. I understand some of it. Those who have had a personal animus against baker and hated that we drafted him. Those folks have been on a rant non stop since draft day.

This team is going to crank it up soon, baker will return to form and a bunch of folks are going to look really dumb.

We see things differently. Former NFL players and coaches are saying these things. Baker complains about media attention, but constantly fuels the fire.

I don't think any of the things he has said [other than one example] is a huge deal, but it's always something w/this guy. The little things accumulate. He did it in college and he's doing it in the NFL.

Not sure why people are criticizing those of us who would rather see him do it on the field rather than on media outlets?

Please. The Baker Bubbas on this board are far more annoying than the “haters”.

I like Baker. I want him to do really well, but I can’t stand big talkers and brashness by people who can’t back it up. Shut your mouth until you show us something, better yet, just shut up and play. Make your mark on the field.

Baker, Freddie, and this offense have disappointed me so far. I have faith that they will come around, but I’m also concerned, as I have been all offseason.

That’s the thing that makes it a red flag IMO: the fact that other players, ex players, coaches, etc. are saying Baker should be quieter and more focused on the task at hand

This. As much as he says if its not brown and orange it doesn't matter... why the heck is he speaking on other players, or media folks?

I find it kinda ironic and hilarious that people are criticizing & complaining on an internet forum about Baker's criticisms & complaints on social media.

But, that is where we are in the world. Everybody has an opinion about social media and then they go to social media to voice it.

This team is becoming unlikable, just play and stop with the Real Housewives of Berea stuff. There is so much talent and it is being lost in all the drama.

My issue is this attitude and behavior isn’t what is needed at the moment. Go learn to run a competent offense, put up good stats, and then maybe you can say something?

I don’t think we really disagree here. I just want the pompous nonsense with crappy play to stop.

Well did baker work hard enough for everybody???

I think they just put up.

He was alright and improved from last week.

When he climbed the pocket he made good things happen. When he didn't and allowed himself to drift backwards it was a wild card.

If he would consistently climb the pocket instead of retreating when things get a little cluttered, he will be elite.

The good news is he recognized it, made a concerted effort to fix it, and made progress in fixing it.

You can say this about a lot of the team today.

We were told...

John Dorsey gave everyone a heads-up before the first game...

Dorsey said,

Dorsey was as honest as he could be with our fans, not feeding them a bunch of hype and unrealistic predictions. Instead, Dorsey pointed out that with the addition of so many new coaches and the new additions to the roster...that it would take a while for the team to gel.

Half way through the first 8 games, the Browns are 2-2, leading the AFC North.

Really OK with a bunch of what I saw today.

Thanks, Ravenkiller. Hope you watched this beatdown. I find that I enjoy scoring quite a good bit. Let's win again soon.

Jc

Well, another dismal performance by baker mayfield.

I just want to remind the board that as much as we all believe baker mayfield is the guy, he needs to clean his game up. Since 2018, he leads the league in picks.

So far in 2018, he has 8 picks. He has 4 TDs and 9 total turnovers.

Can't argue w any of that. Some will anyway.

ANd he’s literally running into sacks (and a fumble last night) ... If we just had the last 5 games to go by, he’d be an outright bust of a pick.

But we’ve seen him be accurate, decisive, confident, etc ... but that has faded away. He looks shellshocked and unsure. Teams are keeping him in the pocket, forcing him to throw while not seeing, and playing zone so he can’t trust his WRs as much.

And he’s responded terribly

For the sake of this city and browns fans everywhere, baker must develop into the franchise QB.

But man..if we have a QB who only performs when he has a chip on his shoulder, we have a problem.

At some point, guys gotta perform against good teams. At some point, he has to live up to the hype.

I mean damn, why does he still have poor form in the pocket? Why is he still throwing fade away passes like he’s Kobe? Why is he running into sacks and bailing the pocket so early? Why isn’t he taking the play that’s there and instead trying to go for a home run ball? Why is he telegraphing his throws, leading to batted balls?

As below average as our OL has played, baker is making them and the entire team look a whole lot worse. Baker HAS to step his play up. And if he can’t do that without running his mouth and creating fake outrage, then I dunno guys.

I think the title of the thread should be changed.

By all accounts he is a hard worker. I don't think it's a question of whether he will work hard or not. It's more of when he's working hard is he working smart ...i.e., is he doing the right things.

I also believe the new, inexperienced QB coach isn't doing him any favors. Just a hunch on that one.

And he's just incredibly immature. Immaturity breeds overconfidence. Overconfidence breeds complacency.

He has a lot to clean up.

J/c

I agree with the fact that we can’t just play well when we’re “mad” or when we respond ... it’s like we are playing bogey golf but then get birdies when we absolutely have to.

Meanwhile, we should be playing par golf and getting birdies when they’re there

Honestly, I think the "he's running into sacks" thing is being over played.

He's not really running into sacks. It starts much earlier than that. His recognition, trust, confidence...take your pick...is not where it needs to be. He shouldn't be running into anything because the ball should already be out before he even has a chance too. And that's the part he's missing.

"Taking time away from football" is not my idea of working hard.

It’s not being overplayed when it’s ruining drives.

I think both you and Rish are right. He should get rid of it quicker and he does leave the pocket when he shouldn't. Obviously, both are related to him being confused by the post-snap coverage.

Again, there are no reports that I am aware of that Baker isn't a hard working player. Just the opposite actually. Taking time away from football maybe wasn't the smartest thing to do but that's not proof he isn't a hard worker. His coach also encouraged it.

If this is the best he can manage, he should sit. This double and triple pump, running into sacks, myopic use of Chubb (reliably predictable), and holding too long for this line is just dumb. If he knows better, and we HAVE seen him do better, then it isn't making it to the field. He runs right when flushed, and his passes are thrown inexplicably high. These tall balls are going to get us hurt, and it doesn't seem much of this is being coached up and corrected.

Look for some tackles who can move their feet better. Trade Callaway possibly. Sit Baker if he can't be game ready.

Callaway simply isn’t mentally good enough to trust. He didn’t know where to line up and was totally out of the game even before his big blunder

jc

question for the guys who really study the game......

is Baker's lack of athleticism starting to hurt us this season? because a person doesnt roll the same direction over and over again if they are comfortable throwing from multiple platforms. we've also seen some running lanes baker could've took off and get a few yards on as well.

im just wondering. i know QB's are suppose to make money from the pocket, but its not like he's even doing that right now either.

J/c

I’m also growing MORE AND MORE concerned that we never seem to check the ball down or have outlets for Baker (whether that’s by design or because he won’t hit them). It’s like all 4 WR options are clumped together and/or running way too deep of routes

At this juncture (as of October 8th) if the Browns are picking in the Top 5 again, they gotta take another QB.

Until you find your guy, you keep taking QB. This will either light a fire under Mayfield or he will fold. One way or another Baker needs to know ASAP that either you step up or you step aside, if he cna't get the job done we will find someone who can.

At the end of the day, this is business and the Browns need to find a QB that can utilize all the weapons we have. So far that hasn't been Baker Mayfield.

If im picking in the Top 5, i take another QB, and i give Mayfield one more year, if he can't do it, move on.

Pat Thorman
@Pat_Thorman
Baker Mayfield (66) and Lamar Jackson (67) have faced pressure on a similar number of dropbacks.
However their passer rating while under pressure is not similar.

LJ: 99.0
BM: 22.3

That means nothing. Lamar isn't very good either.

So far he’s better than Mayfield. The stats plus the W-L record since 2018 says he is.

Baker should be better than Lamar long term.

Should.

J/C

I agree that Baker should be better, and I also agree that he’s not right now. Given the choice of QBs right now I’d take Lamar, simply because he can creat yards by himself and Baker can’t. Baker’s lack of speed and athleticism is daunting ... he’s way slower than I thought coming into the year

I take baker simply because I believe in 2 minute situations, he’s a better QB when we need yards in chunks, standing in the pocket. There are a few other aspects that I’ll also choose baker over Lamar.

But that is a gap that is quickly closing, and was never that wide to begin with.

One other alarming thing: as soon as we go empty it’s like we immediately suck. Baker was so good in empty formations in college and last year ... and this year he’s the exact opposite

Look at our red zone offense when we go empty ... it’s putrid

Yes ... and who is calling the empty sets? .... and to b3 honest i dont remember an empty backfield last year unless it was a shift by the RB in motion.

To me that shows it isn't primarily a QB problem. If you have done it in the past, you can do it now.

I still think the problem is when we merged Freddies O and Monkens. It is like they don't mesh and go for opposite results.

We just aren't cohesive in what we are doing. Something has to give.

This is kind of where I'm at, and it's why I haven't thrown myself off the cliff. This offense is a work-in-progress that is now subjected to a massive overhaul.

8-22 is a QB problem.

j/c:

Baker Mayfield is ranked 31st out of 33 listed starting qbs. Only Cam Newton and Falk from the Jets are behind him. His QBR is 33.4. http://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

He has also thrown twice as many interceptions as TDs this year. He has a losing record as a starting qb.

He's put a target on his back w/his words and all kinds of people associated w/the NFL are talking about it. But, you know.....it's just because some posters "hate" Baker.

never mind Lamar, Josh Allen has played far better than Baker Mayfield, with much less talent to work with.

im tracking the 2018 QB draft class right now. man....i know its only a year and a half, but this 2019 offseason, you can clearly tell which QB's took a step forward, and which ones took a step (or multiple steps) back.

Allen also, so far, has a much better coach as well. You know, the coach everyone in the former FO wanted but Jimmah trumped it and took Hue Jackson.

I am not making excuses for last night performance. It was a bad game. Only simpletons as wanting to make changes at this point.

As I stated earlier, I think there is something going on with the O in general. Maybe it's Freddie calling Monkens O or maybe it is Monkens O.

I have a brother who lives in the Tampa area. He thinks Monken is a QB killer. He had Winston all balled up last year.

That is just his opinion. I am not pointing fingers. You want to point fingers like some of the others, go for it.

IMO Lamar is ALL that better statistically since 2018.


Baker (NFL Career)
TD–INT: 31–20
Completion percentage: 62.7
Passing yards: 4,872
Passer rating: 90.0

Lamer (NFL Career)
TD–INT: 17–8
Passing yards: 2,472
Completion percentage: 61.7
Passer rating: 91.6
Rushing yards: 1,003
Rushing touchdowns: 6

Now this year is a totally different story

In your case, you do, but I get your point. No doubt about it, Baker isn't playing well. I totally agree.

We just might differ on why.

I am not here making excuses for the guy. I just wonder why because he did play well last season.

I don't know why we didn't exploit Sherman playing so far off the receivers. You could have literally driven it down the field with 10 and 15 yard out routes every single play. Then when they adjust you go over the top. These are also fast developing, timing plays that have had Baker drop, plant, throw.

Offense would have gotten into a rhythm and defense would have been on their heels.

My only point is there are multiple problems going on here. I'm certainly not trying to say Mayfield is the only problem. But he's most certainly one of the major problems.

Accuracy and thought process isn't on a HC. Calling plays and implementing a system conducive that puts your QB in the best system for him to be productive is.

As far as the O that makes it a two headed monster.

To be honest, I fell asleep once we went down by 14. I could see how that one was shaping up. I rather wake up pleasantly surprised then sit through a game like that.

I agree, we should be attacking underneath a lot more. I think part is Monken who prefers a vertical, slower developing passing game. I think it is partly the OBJ effect where we feel we need to get him the ball.

Things just aren't in synch with the coaching staff and the team.

Makes you wonder if we should’ve kept Gregg Williams as HC. Freddie seems to have too much on his plate. I’m not giving up on Freddie cause it is his first year,

But nobody can deny that he was very under qualified compared to others.

Unless we start attacking underneath with crossing routes, check downs, etc then Kareem Hunt’s addition will also deem itself pretty useless too. We’re using about 5% of our offensive potential. The play calling and QB execution is destroying us and handicapping everything

Again, I feel baker should be better long term.

But the stats say Lamar has played better, and the W-L column states that as well.

And the thing with Lamar is that he runs so much, and STILL has way less turnovers than baker.

And how the hell did the guy end up with a higher accuracy rate than baker? The same dude who so many people said needed to change positions?

We drafted the most accurate QB in the class and yet.....man I dunno.

I guess I just expected baker to take a huge leap forward with the weapons he has, and yet now I’m often wondering what Allen, Rosen, or Lamar would look like with the same talent.

Cause people bring up the OL....but Allen and Lamar actually have the ability to take the hell off when it breaks down. I mean, Daniel Jones could be legit faster than mayfield in game speed.

I've worried about this since it happened. We had caught lightning in a bottle, why didn't we stick with it? I get that Baker liked Kitchens and maybe Dorsey was afraid we'd lose him if another team offered a HC gig, but still. We finally had some semblance of continuity, we were winning games, we had an offense that finally looked competent and a team that looked competitive. We took one piece of that, and then blew up the rest. Worse yet, we let Freddie dictate that he could be the OC as well as the HC. That's usually something only the best of the best can pull off, like Belichick and Reid. Not a first year head coach that had all of 8 games experience as an OC.

What makes someone qualified to be a head coach?

You can argue that a large percentage of coordinators are not qualified to be head coaches.

8 games as an OC where another coach developed the gameplan...he literally just called plays..lol

Yea I agree. I dunno bro. I’ve been hesitant to criticize Dorsey because man, this is the best collection of talent we ever had on this team, Atleast since that magical 07 season.

But I wish Dorsey would’ve Atleast told Freddie that he can be HC on the condition that he keeps the same playbook and scheme.

I guess the argument could be credibly made that with so many changes on offense, this is basically bakers true rookie season? Maybe a stretch I dunno, but I can see it possibly.

Oh, I agree with you.

I only posted it, because I had looked it up this morning, after hearing some Ravens fan on the radio ragging on all the other 2nd year QBs, while acting like Lamar was better than Brady.

Baker has regressed a lot this year. We just have to figure out why. You don't just get this bad suddenly, especially with additional weapons.

And our D didn't do us any favors either. The game got pretty out of hand quickly.

This team is still not ready to overcome adversity in a game. The opening TD run was a gut punch, but Calloways drop for an INT, was the death knell.

Again, what makes someone qualified to be a head coach?

How many coordinators make terrible head coaches? If we had hired a long tenured coordinator to be a head coach and they weren't having success the narrative would be that just because someone is a good coordinator doesn't mean they'd be a good coach. Now that Freddie is up and down it's because we hired a guy with little experience who had never been a coordinator.

So again, what qualifies someone to be a head coach?

Everyone is just grasping at straws because they are upset.

Yea but how many HCs went from a runnings back coach, to OC with all of 8 games experience calling plays before getting a HC spot?

Atleast you can point out that the other HCs were coordinators for a couple seasons, or Atleast a FULL season, before getting the top position.

Can’t make that claim with kitchens.

I agree with that. Lets just hope we figure it out relatively quickly.

j/c

And on the other hand, how many OCs and DCs did we make HC, only to fail?

Not sure there is any secret formula. But I wish Freddie would focus more on the game a as whole and less on play calling duties.

I have to think that being the play caller is a bit of a distraction on game day, as your focus is all on getting the next play. When the D is on the Field, he has to be HC and can't be talking the offense to find out what they are seeing, and such.

Sure some guys can do it, but most of them also had years of experience at OC and had their own playbooks. No way Freddie created and has his playbook memorized well enough to pull this off. At least IMO.

I almost feel like those last 8 games of last season went to everyone's head, and everyone from Dorsey down to Baker felt that they could do whatever they wanted because they were now King Midas and everything they touched would turn to gold.

Baker feels he can just hold onto the ball and make home-run, Brett Farve type plays every single down because it worked at times last year.

Kitchens felt he could scrap the coaching staff and scheme, and bring in his own guys, because he was now the new Sean McVay. He could turn Baker and the offense into the new Greatest Show on Turf and now call a vertical passing game because everything he did last year worked.

Dorsey felt he was a personnel genius, and that we could trade away a top guard in the league to make way for the guy that he drafted in Corbett. He could pick up some random lineman to fill in because he pulled off magic last year. We could also blow up the coaching staff that had actually worked because we had the one guy that was calling the right plays and everything else would fall into place perfectly, because we all knew what we were doing.

It's two-fold, IMO.

He isn't being put in the best situations to succeed like he was last year, for starters, but he also hasn't taken much of the expected leap forward from the rookie season, either.


I mean, it's kinda mind-boggling, really.... how can we all see that we're not doing the things that helped him be successful last year, yet we continue to not help him be successful this year?

I mean, it HAS to be deliberate, right? Is it stubbornness? Is it blindly sticking to a plan to force him through growing pains, results be damned? Is it just utter stupidity because you can't accept that results are all that matter?



We haven't had a team this talented since the early 1990's, yet we're as bad as we've ever been since The Return.


These players like to call out "Dawg Check" like they're part of that history and have earned co-opting it, but when I hear it all I hear is "Dawg Crap" because that's what they put on the field.

It almost seemed to me that this week Freddie used some of the things that worked last week combined with some of the things that weren't working before. That is until we were behind late in the game. He did have two TE's on the field some when we were still in the game early.

I agree ... it seemed like Freddie felt like “Okay, now it’s time to gradually build us back up from last week to where I eventually want us to be” ... and again we failed. IMO, we gotta stick with the EASY stuff (for us) for a while here

and he should be doing that, IMO, but he's gotta get something going, first. Each game is new... get things rolling with what you do well, THEN mix in the stuff you're trying to grow into.

Trying to throw new stuff into a cold situation isn't going to do you any favors, ever.

I have noticed when Baker rolls out, he never runs the ball. The defensive backs fall back into coverage, knowing he will not run. Last year they came up to meet him and he found targets downfield. He needs to run some on those scramble situations to keep the defenses honest.

the biggest failure in this whole thing is dorsey not making Kitchens have a playcaller. If you're trying to make it easy and help a young HC out then you keep him from tripping over the biggest obstacle they have...ego. If freddie demanded that be a condition to be coach..then we have the wrong HC and GM at this point

That and last year he was effective on the run..he threw some lasers on the run last year..this year when i see him run and throw i already know its going out of bound

I mentioned this in the Game Day thread, but I think it was about the third or so drive into the game. We started feeding Chubb. He ran off a couple of decent runs and got one or two first downs. We might of run a short pass or screen or something, and then another run, and we had ourselves a third and short. I was thinking, "Okay, finally, we're getting back to what was working before and building a drive here ..." But then on 3rd down, we go empty-freaking-backfield, Baker takes a deep drop, the receivers run off the screen, and we take a sack for a loss. Drive over.

Just when we would start getting momentum, something would happen. We'd take a penalty that ended up putting us in 3rd and not managable, and we'd revert to chucking the ball. I get that you don't have a ton of flexibility on 3rd and 6+, but still.

"I mean, it HAS to be deliberate, right? Is it stubbornness? Is it blindly sticking to a plan to force him through growing pains, results be damned? Is it just utter stupidity because you can't accept that results are all that matter?"

And that's where the "WHY?" comes into play.

It is mind boggling how inept we look with all this talent.

IMO barring a miracle, Mayfield is finished.

Mayfield is 24 years old. what you see now is what he is always going to be. Mayfield has gotten by his entire high school and college career on "pure athletic ability" in this case his arm. He was able to overcome his height issues just based on his arm.

In the NFL however, you can't succeed on just pure athletic talent. Big Ben, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Mahomes, etc...they get by because they are students of the game and do nothing but study.

I doubt Mayfield is willing to sit down and put in the time it takes to become a master. Being selected to play in the NFL at all, let alone being the #1 overall pick in the draft is a HUGE honor, but Mayfield is entitled. He is an entitled, self serving, self centered, egotistical little punk. He hasn't grown up one bit from college.

I knew we had a problem brewing by the way he disrespected Hue Jackson. It was wrong period. We fired Jackson, Jackson wanted to work in the NFL, so Cincy hired him, there was no call whatsoever for Mayfield to be such an idiot towards him.

The Browns of course will stick with Mayfield two years longer than they should of course, but when its all set and done, he will be worse than Couch.

Mayfield would have to do a complete 180 and literally spend the entire offseason doing nothing outside of 2 weeks of vacation studying film, throwing footballs, working with people, etc and giving up his public appearance attention seeking ways. I don't think he will do that, and its for that reason alone he will not succeed. Im sure his wife Emily Wilkinson is a good girl, but her entire career is based on attention, public appearances, and Instagram...thats incompatible with what it takes to be a great NFL QB

You don't see Brady, Brees, Mahomes, Rivers, Ben making all those public appearances...it requires sacrifice to be a great NFL QB and I don't think Baker will do that nor does he appreciate the honor he has been given.

well, that's a might premature.

Why bring his wife into it? Geesh. LOL

There are many on this board, yourself included, that dislike a player so much that they actually end up rooting against their own team. You want Baker to fail because you don't like him. And there are others on this board that want the same. But when you root for guys to fail you are rooting against your team. I think guys like you are are bigger fans of yourself and your opinions than you are Browns fans.

It's sad.

I’m not insulting his wife. On the contrary I said I bet she is a good person. She defends Mayfield on Twitter. I wouldn’t think of insulting his wife. She seems like a genuinely good person.

That being said her career is being an Instagram Model/Influencer, which means her entire career is based on looking good as a model and public appearances. This is going to make it very hard for Mayfield to do what he needs to do to be great as an NFL QB. Have you seen his wife? I don’t blame him one bit for going to every social thing she does. No way you wave that unattended! She is smoking!

I don’t think that lifestyle is compatible with being a great NFL QB. None of the other great QB since 1995 have had that kinda lifestyle. I’ll be very surprised if Mayfield succeeds for this reason. Just showing up at camp, ota, watching film in berea during camp just isn’t enough to succeed in this league.

Mayfield has always been successful because of his talent but now that talent isn’t enough.

I’d love nothing more than for him to prove me wrong and succeed, but being good nfl an isn’t easy and it’s not like college. He has all the tools but he has to want it and maybe this year will humble him enough that he will put in the time together better and nothing would make me happier

Uh, Tom Brady is married to Giselle freaking Bündchen.

so having an attractive wife keeps mayfield from being a good QB. can't believe you said that

good god. it never is a surprise as to why women are ticked off about how they're perceived and/or treated in society and in the workplace.

this is along the same line of thinking when guys say attractive women makes them unfocused in the workplace. if a woman's appearance keeps you from being the best version of yourself, it aint the woman that's the problem.

this is completely out of line.

Shhhhh... doesn't fit the narrative.

What makes someone qualified? How about having been a HC before... on any level? We could have hired BA. He had been a HC before. He knew what he was getting in to and he also stated he WANTED to come here and would keep Kitchens as the OC if possible. We could have hired Mike McCarthy. He has a Super Bowl ring and a ton of playoff experience. That is two HC's right off the bat with experience. There were plenty of other choices as well. We could have kept Williams. He showed he could at least hold the guys accountable and instill some discipline. We weren't the most penalized team in the league under him... There were a LOT of other choices. Dorsey chose FK. So now it is what it is. Either he gets it together soon or the coaching search will begin again. I don't see them giving him years on end to figure it out. This team has a ton of talent but lack any discipline at all. WAY too many penalties. I blame the Kitchens "we don't practice penalties" BS. Every team has refs come in and get the guys ready by calling penalties. Not us boy. Can't do that. Let's just wing it and hope.

How in the world can you take what I said this way? You have to be kidding me.

It has NOTHING to do with how attractive she is, it has EVERYTHING to do with what she does for a living!

She is an Instagram Model/Influencer. Her entire career is based on:

1. Attention
2. Public Appearances
3. Modeling

There is a HUGE difference between Gisele Bunchen and Emily Wilkenson. Gisele has a manager that does 99% of her stuff for her, Gisele picks and chooses what she wants to attend, what she wants to model, and everything is done on her terms. Gisele doesn't have to go make all these public appearances and garner attention like Emily does.

Gisele is "the face that runs the place" Wilkinson is just trying to get in "the place".

Point is Mayfield needs to be going with her to these public outings because she is his wife that's what a husband is supposed to do. We all know guys will creep on your wife if your not around, people are not perfect. The biggest causes of marriage failing is money problems and not spending enough time together and communication. Mayfield better be spending as much time as he can with his wife, its whats best for him in his personal life. You don't think it don't take time away from football study to do all this kinda stuff? hmm?

Its absurd that anyone would think having an attractive wife would keep Mayfield from being great. Diverging careers can and will derail things not only for Mayfield, but for anyone. Look how many Hollywood stars fall apart because of diverging career directions.

However, Im done. careers can be counterproductive to each other...attractiveness doesn't have to be the deciding factor in everything. I wondered how long it would take for someone to bring it up, didn't take long.

Oh and one last thing, Mayfield is doing right supporting his wife in her career. He should be going and doing these things with her, helping her, etc. Infact being a good husband is more important that being a good football player.

If Mayfield was smart, he would retire in a year or two and do something else. He could excel in a lot of other things and be happier to boot with his wife, start a family, and not have to deal with CTE and injuries. If push comes to shove his wife should always come before the NFL or he is a fool.

Surely you understand why some folks are a bit skeptical when you suggest that the biggest determining factor in whether Baker Mayfield thrives or not is his wife's career as an instagram model/influencer... which literally means she can work whenever and wherever she wants... and she doesn't really need the money.

Wow. Just wow. The miracle would be that you're actually right.

You certainly are an expert on all subjects, aren't you?

Mayfield broke the rookie record last year... There is nothing wrong with him that can't be fixed. But I'm not sure the current coaching staff has the answers he needs.

I think you are an honest poster and I don't think you are one of the people blaming the coaching for Baker's issues, so I will try to answer your question.

Baker struggled after D's got an idea about him when Haley was calling the shots. Freddie came in and made some dramatic changes. He went w/a ton of 12, 13, 21, and even 22 personnel. He cut the field in half and asked Baker to just read half the field. The main emphasis was on making one read and throwing it. That worked well, but we still saw Baker struggle at times when the first read wasn't open.

This year, the expectations were that Baker was going to be asked to handle a regular load, just like almost all NFL qbs. He is clearly struggling w/reading the post-snap coverage and teams have had time to figure him out.

Take away the right side of the field. Get pressure up the middle. Disguise the coverage. And make him go through his progressions quickly. He is getting rattled [just like Bosa said in his post-game interview] and he is making poor decisions, leaving the pocket when he should not, and losing accuracy because he is not comfortable.

I know the game and I know what I see. Also, others who played/coached in the league are saying the same stuff.

I will not get into it w/the usual suspects who will try and make this a personal battle, but if anyone w/an open mind wants to discuss what we/he should do moving forward, I will gladly try and discuss that. I don't have all the answers. I am not as knowledgeable as our coaching staff, but I have some experience and would love to have an honest discussion w/out all the personality crap.

I would bet Baker is pretty close to being brought back down to reality.

Hopefully, he gets himself a lunchpail and hard hat attitude witch duct tape on his lips in the media and continues to be a loud chatty sob of the field and in the locker room.

most everything he is doing wrong he can fix.

Right now.. every NFL team has his number circled and wants to beat him into submission and teach him a lesson. HOPEFULLY- it won't cause permanent damage.

I like the kid, I like his passion. I think he did too much in the offseason that wasn't football related and it is biting him in the back. I am looking forward to seeing how he remakes himself in year 3.

A simple wrong would have done just fine, but

I was pretty sure that my previous post would not draw much conversation, but for those who are interested, check this link out. It's from Next Gen Stats and it charts all of Baker's throws for each game this season. You may note that early on he was throwing all over the field and in recent weeks, his throws are either are pretty much being dominated to one side of the field.

I get that people don't want to hear it when I --and people who have played/coached the game --say he is a one-read qb who struggles reading coverages, but I think the evidence is starting to pile up.

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/type/team/2019/week

here is 2018

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/2018/baker-mayfield/MAY483453/2018/all/qb-grid

There was a poster who challenged you on this statement. He said something about how Allen has a much better coach than Baker does and how the previous FO wanted him as our HC.

Just to set the record straight, Sean McDermontt has not been a QB coach, an Offensive Coordinator, an Offensive Guru, etc. He was a defensive coach, who was a Defensive Quality Control coach, a LBer coach, and a Defensive Coordinator. More made-up crap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_McDermott

JC to fix the ridiculous thread title ... its driving me nuts as is.

So, honest question, what should Baker do moving forward?

Well, its a jointed effort between he and the coaching staff. We need to adjust to teams trying to zone him to death and distract his vision due to his height. If it were me given our personnel, I really wish we’d take a look at what Shanahan did here with Hoyer in 2014 or whatever ... use misdirections, quick hitters, zone blocking to get Chubb going. In other words: don’t make the QB do too much. Make him a game manager right now

I am not an expert, lamp. I probably know the game more than most of the folks on this board, but again, I am not an expert.

Regarding Baker:

If I were the Browns:

--I would put a gag order on him. Shut the hell up about coaches, the Daniel Jones, the Texas QB, the analysts, etc. It's not that I would disagree w/everything he is saying, but when you talk crap, you are going to get crap when you don't play well. Marcus Spears had a good point today. He said that Daniel Jones hasn't played well the last two weeks, but people let it slide because he doesn't run his mouth. Whereas, Baker is constantly trashing people, so when he isn't playing well, folks will put it back in his face.

--Stop the sense of entitlement and ask him to put more time in during the off-season.

If I were advising Baker:

--Work w/a QB coach. His mechanics break down when pressured. Don't call them "broom sweepers," instead try and learn from a guy who knows how to "teach."

--Break down film daily. Watch your game tapes where you struggled. Watch tapes of QBs who succeeded against the same D's and same looks. Chart the differences in decisions.

--Watch games of other defenses you will be facing this upcoming season, and pause the video right at the snap and write down your first read, your second read, third read, etc.........and where the coverage will be for each read. This is CRITICAL!

--Watch a ton of tape and try to discover "tendencies." Drew Brees is the best in the business at this. He knows what you are doing [most of the time] based on down and distance, personnel groupings, alignments, etc

--With your QB coach, try and simulate moving in the pocket to find throwing lanes rather than trying to throw over the top of rushers or scrambling to the right to find lanes. Again, Brees is the master of this. Slide w/in the pocket, don't run out of the pocket.

--Hell, watch a ton of tape on what Drew Brees does. Reach out to him. Pick his brain.

It's up to Baker. You wanna be great or do you wanna be rich and popular?

Good points Vers.

I agree with talking to Baker about his media profile. Tell him to focus on prep and let your play do your talking.

I would presume our QB coach should be working with him on his mechanics, although my understanding is that in-season, that is difficult to work on.

And I agree about reaching out to other QBs, heck I was even thinking that if I was Freddie, I would be reaching out to other coaches, even Nick Saban, who Freddie is pretty tight with.

I don't expect all this to be fixed overnight, but I want to see progress each week.

Luckily, football is entertainment to me, it has little effect on my life once that final whistle blows. I don't walk around in depression for days like others, and I surely don't talk BS to other fans when we win (ala Patriots, Pittsburgh, Eagles fans I know ).

I'm no coach, so I don't know how to fix it, but I do know it was working last year. I'd like to believe the Baltimore team is the team we have, and the 49ers team is the team when their egos get too big.

J/c

In terms of the team yo-yo-ing and having our egos get too big ... it’s starting to become a trend, which is not good. All offseason we had an inflated self view, and we laid an egg against Tennessee ... then we beat the Jets .... then we laid an egg offensively against the Rams ... then we played dominant against Baltimore ... then laid an even bigger egg against the Niners.

That’s the sign of an immature, leaderless team. We aren’t ready yet for the lights. And we’d better hope it’s because of lack of time to gel and not our egos

j/c:

I like Sharp Analytics. Here is a link to Baker's Advanced and Directional Passing Logs.

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/game-log---qbs.html

I wasn't challenging Swish on his statement, for the record. I was adding to it.

And imagine having the mindset that a HC cannot have an influence on the QB and his maturation/growth process simply because he has a defensive pedigree. That's like saying Belichek didn't influence Brady's growth and maturation towards being arguably the best QB ever because he was primarily a defensive guru.

Or in a more recent example and related to Swish's example, John Harbaugh not having an influence on Jackson clear postive progression as a QB because Harbaugh was primarily a ST coach his career.

Goodness, the things people will say.

Okay, so what makes McDermott a better QB coach than Freddie?

I really don't know who is a better QB coach, but I am questioning how you know McDermott is better at it than Freddie?

I’m just going to jump in quickly ... McDermott is one of my favorite coaches overall (maybe not in terms of just QB play) ... his teams are disciplined and his defenses are stout. Low number of penalties, they run the ball effectively, good time of possession, rarely get blown out (which is an underrated quality IMO). He seems to utilize his offensive talent to the max.

turning this back towards baker.. What if he is a hard worker (and by all accounts he is) and hes just at his ceiling. Alot of hard working guys never make it because the talent between the ears isn't there. I think the biggest problem with Baker is Lindley. He's barely older than Baker, so theres probably more hey I'm your buddy than actual coaching..and he's not an experienced guy either. Baker is missing a guy like Zampese who's been around quite a bit and has success with QB's, we need a Zampese, Kubiak, Knapp kind of coach. Coach that has experience breaking plays down and cutting tape.

I've read this exact thing is an issue.

Nothing in my past two posts was trying to compare McDermott to Kitchens. If anything it was a comparison between McDermott and Hue and how bad of a decision that was to go with Hue.

You're trying to manufacture a position I have not taken. Do better.

For clarification: Looking back at my original post, it came off as a comparison between Kitchen and McDermott because I typed "has". It should have been "had". My comp was between those Hue and McD (think that is pretty obvious considering I referened the original decision to go with Hue over McD, not Kitchens and McD. I have no idea how Kitchens will end up but it is not looking good at the moment.

I am not making excuses for Baker, I am not. I agree with you - he needs to be better and looks like a shell of what we saw last year.

I think the oline has a lot to do with his play as he has no confidence in them. I think the gameplanning has had a lot to do with his play, with long developing routes, poor play calling (why were we going 5 wide again on the goaline?), and I think BAKER has a lot to do with it as well. Honestly, I think he looks a little out of shape if you ask me. His arms are not as defined as they were last year. I didn't notice it until they were showing the flashbacks of the planting of the flag. His arms are def not as ripped, and his stomach looks a little pudgy.

He needs to work on his pocket presence, throwing a check down, going through progressions, moving his eyes around, reading a def pre snap better, getting the ball DOWN (way too many high passes).

He also a KEY POINT you brought up is learn how to play without extra motivation. Winning the game should be enough. You don't need to be mad, you don't need to be p'd off at Hue to play good. Your future and your status in the league should be enough.

For the first time, I am getting worried about him. I think he can still be the guy, and until Monday I never questioned he wasn't. I am starting too.

I am not trying to manufacture anything. I read this in your earlier post:



I was just wondering how you knew that McDermott was a better qb coach than Freddie?

THIS.

Who is the leader of this team? Baker? IDK, he may still be a little too immature. Myles? Hes not vocal enough IMO. Jarvis? Hes too busy playing keeper to OBJ now. Honestly, who is our leader?

In my coaching experience, break throughs to the next level happen when a player is finally hitting a point of conflict in their game. They either work through it or they fold. The problem comes from how long it takes for an individual to break through that barrier. Some make it look terribly easy. Others make you want to just take them out to the back pasture and put them out of their own misery. And that's where we are right now with our Browns and Mayfield in particular.

He'll eventually break through whatever it is between his ears that is holding him back from the next level. He has the physical tools. What's eating him is in his own head. My best guess is he's just a bundle of joy to be around right now. I didn't expect him to have that moment of clarity when he was being trick or treated by the Niners.

A struggling quarterback will cost you games. We've just got to keep riding this weird and wonderful torpedo all the way to the end.

Cris Carter reacts to Trent Dilfer on Baker Mayfield's struggles: "He's trying to be a superstar"



i agree with this. Baker has got to get back to just being the QB. he's trying to be the hero when we just need to him to be the QB. Baker playing within the system? we always seem to dominate offensively.

Baker the hero? you get 8/22, 100 yards and 3 turnovers.

Bingo .. playing hero ball ... it’s like we’ve gotten away from the simple stuff that worked last year and have implemented a vertical passing attack that simply doesn’t align with our strengths

I want to add something else to this.

After Baker's play last year, I don't think we can look at this year and say he's reached his ceiling. He has the pedigree, background, and rookie year to show there is a ton of potential there. There are probably 5 to 6 things you can point to this year that are different than last year as to why he's playing bad. He's not a finished product by any stretch.

I implore the fanbase and organization to not give up on this kid. I implore the organization to figure out how to bring him along and develop him. We need to see this through. I grit my teeth when I read statements like "he's hit his ceiling" or "he better figure it out fast". No, he doesn't need to figure it out fast. The organization needs to figure out how to bring him along and let him grow into the position. Again, I'm begging the fanbase and organization to stand by this kid. Figure out what they need to do to right the ship. We are historically an unstable organization that moves on from FOs, coaches, and players too often and too early without seeing things through. We are a fanbase that wants change at the first sign of adversity. It's got to stop if we ever want to get this turned around.

We don't have to look any further than our own division for a great example. In Big Ben's first couple of years they protected him. They didn't ask him to do too much. He developed into the player he became. He didn't come into the league that way. He had a head start on Mayfield because he got drafted into a stable organization that understood these types of things, but we have to become that type of organization.

I think we all want the same thing...to see this team succeed on a consistent level. I think the only way we get there is digging in, supporting the guys we have, and not looking for quick fixes for everything. I get this is a message board and it's a nice place to vent and get out our frustrations but I get the sense that some already want to start over at coach and QB. That's not the answer, and I hope it's not even a consideration by the organization.

Interesting. Steve Young said the same thing about Baker trying to be Super Man before the game the other night. Also, last night, I brought up that Baker should try to study Drew Brees. So, I think some good points were made in that clip.

I will say that I disagreed w/a couple of things, but overall, it was pretty good.

I gotta read this post a couple more times to let it soak in, but I did want to say 1 thing.

Most, if not all, of those suggestions are long-term things. Long-term, as in things that he could do no earlier than the end of this season. I'm a very "first-things-first" kinda guy, so right now I'm more concerned about what he can do this week, and then next week.

1. Absolutely he should shut up. I get the argument that he's just responding to questions, etc. Still, just shut up. Just because some dumb reporter asked a dumb question doesn't give you carte blanche to react like a tool.

2. This is the part where coaching comes in. Freddie and Monken have to swallow their pride, shed a single tear for the offense they tried to install, and then go back to the basics that gave them success last year. At the very least, Monken should be thinking this... I mean, he's the one that's gonna be on the chopping block. We know how this works... there's gonna be a scapegoat for disappointments like this. Not saying it's right, just saying how it is. Monken's gotta know it's gonna be him. I digress. Coaches gotta dial it way back with Baker and offense. "You're failing miserably, dude... we're taking a bunch off your plate."

3. Put the cuffs on Mayfield in-game. Get him back to reading half of a field and getting the ball out of his hands. Until he gets himself under control, consequences if the improptu rollouts continue.

Other
Longer-term (Vers, you're going to hate this) we gotta find an oline upgrade or 2. No, it's not the oline's fault, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be better. That unit needs to be better in order for Mayfield to develop. I always looks at the Steelers. They had an amazing oline and run game for baby-Ben. They're going to have the same for the QB that comes after Ben. Kitchens is trying to skip a very important step in Baker's development.

Not-so-long-term
Freddie still needs to take a long look at certain parts of this offense. It's just one example, but we've still got WRs running into each other when running their routes. This is stupid. Not letting Baker off the hook, it's just not helping him. It's a basic thing that should be fixed.

Nice post.

Yeah, I am thinking long term. Baker is going to be our qb for a long time. At least I hope he is. He has great arm talent and great confidence in himself. I think he is an intelligent guy. Thus, I think he can do things to help improve his game.

I don't hate the OL part. I think they are okay, but I think we can upgrade it. I just don't want to make a stupid trade to do that. I would rather we draft one or maybe even get a guy in free agency. Keep the draft picks.

I think we can do some things schematically to help Baker this year. That is why I started the Offensive Scheme thread. I do think that Baker deviates from some of the schematic things after he gets harried. Bosa spoke about that after the game. But, I still wish we would bring in a FB and run some 21 or 22 personnel like we did last year.

One thing of note, I was reading a Personnel thing on NinersNation before Monday's game and referred to Sharp's stats about our personnel packages. They brought up that we did implement more 12 and 13 personnel, but we ran out of those packages almost all the time and threw very few passes. That is a tendency that DC's can pick-up on. As a playcaller, you want to make identifying tendencies as hard as possible.

I agree with you 100%. For most players this is usually how things go. However, Baker Mayfield isn't just "another player"

All other things aside,Baker Mayfield has physical limitations.The same ones that concerned me if we were interested in him coming out of the draft.


He is only 6ft tall

He isn't particularity "fast" on his feet.

His arm, while good enough for the NFL, isn't an elite arm by any stretch.

When you look at Mayfield, He doesn't really do any one thing particularity well.

He get chased down by 300 pound DL, he isn't a threat to run in the NFL like in college because he is just too slow. He has trouble seeing over his DL because of heigh issues. Only two QB in the last 25 years have been able to figure out throwing lanes under 6'2 and those two QB are Drew Brees and Russell Wilson. Brees is just a genius mentally when it comes to football, and Russell Wilson is on a whole other level athletically compared to Baker Mayfield.

At the end of the day, we are left with a 6ft QB who is slow and can't outrun anyone who likes to scramble, with a slightly above average arm. Could he succeed? sure, but the odds are against him big time.

If we look at his Combine Draft Scouting Profile we see:



This is what we are seeing this year, and a lot of this stuff is VERY HARD to correct even for a guy who is 6'4 with an elite arm.

Look I am willing to give Mayfield this year and next year to figure it out. However, if we have a Top 5 pick this year, which means our record was horrid, take another QB. If Mayfield works out we trade him if not we can develop him, either way we win. Mayfield hasn't solidified himself as the guy so you have to be looking at other options until that becomes clear.

I am not going to get on your case like others have/will, but Baker has a great arm. I also think it would be stupid to give up on him. We have a lot invested in the guy and he has talent. I think he can improve and we would be smart to give him every chance to succeed.

I agree with all of that. He had a terrible game and some people hate to see that pointed out, but that's no reason for people to say he can't or won't be a good QB. It's like the title of an old Clint Eastwood movie. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. We've seen all of that and we know the good is in there.

Good lord, you run the kid into the ground then say this?

He had a crappy game. Terrible! That's a fact. Of course people such as yourself and others want to extrapolate that out to mean something far more than it is.

Why are you trying to make more out of it than that? I would love to be singing his praises about what a great game he had against the 49'ers. But that didn't happen. He stunk the joint up.

Some people can look at things on a game by game basis and leave it at that.

Then there are people like you who can't help but to read more into it than that.

YES...Baker will work hard enough to be great, but it also takes a supporting cast that is willing to work hard enough.

No QB becomes great without the support of the other 10 teammates doing their job.

I think Baker has a great QB in him. I just hope the coaching doesn't ruin him before he can develop into that great QB. Cleveland, where QB careers come to die.

No Pit, there are folks that take their criticism to extremes then realize it later.

I caught that show on the radio this morning. CC and Bart Scott really ripped our OL also....especially Robinson. They were brutal.

In this case that's not going to happen. In a post game thread the objective is to address "that game". Nothing more, nothing less.

Those who criticized Mayfield character...make sure you click the link to listen to video...


click for video


Richard Sherman: Baker Mayfield “definitely deserves an apology”


Posted by Mike Florio on October 9, 2019, 10:59 AM EDT

The next move in #HandshakeGate has happened.

49ers cornerback Richard Sherman, appearing Wednesday on The Pat McAfee Show, has expressed regret for the erroneous claim that Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield snubbed Sherman prior to the coin toss on Monday night. But the regret comes with a caveat.

“It’s definitely my bad,” Sherman told McAfee. “I never want anybody to deal with some sh-t that — I mean some some stuff — that they didn’t do. And so, you know, the questions that he’s gonna get and the annoying, nonsense questions about some stuff that happened in a game that’s already been done, you know, sure he’ll get an apology for that. I’ll probably reach out to him via text or social media to actually get ahold of him and talk to him in person, I mean on the phone. But, yeah, because that sucks. . . . But yeah, yeah. He definitely deserves an apology, and my bad on that.”

McAfee asked Sherman whether he would have worded things differently if he had a chance to redo the discussion with Mike Silver of NFL Media.

“I may have phrased it differently, but I meant what I said,” Sherman said. “I did feel the disrespect. . . . I felt disrepect and at the end of the day that’s all the story was, really. Like, people can say, ‘Oh my God, he shook your hand’ or ‘Oh my God you were wrong.’ You can say whatever you want. I don’t give a damn.”

But the truth continues to be that Sherman claimed Mayfield refused to shake Sherman’s hand, that Sherman doubled and tripled down on that contention after the initial videos that didn’t prove him wrong first emerged, and that Sherman only admitted that the handshake happened (and began deleting tweets to the contrary) once it was clear that the handshake did indeed occur.

And as it relates to actual or perceived disrespect, it’s just as easy to say that Sherman disrespected Mayfield. As Simms pointed out on PFT Live, Sherman didn’t seem to be all that enthused about interacting with Mayfield, either.

Regardless, Sherman apologized, as he should have. Whether NFL Media apologizes for posting those false claims without properly vetting them or seeking comment from Mayfield or the Browns and then failing to revise the story for roughly three hours after the truth emerged remains to be seen.

It also remains to be seen how Mayfield addresses the issue with reporters. He’s due to meet with reporters today.

And then there’s Sherman’s next media availability. He won’t want to be grilled on the subject, and if he gets asked a bunch of “annoying, nonsense questions” on a topic that he surely won’t want to discuss, he could get angry.

Maybe angry enough to threaten to ruin a reporter’s career.

Man, what a d-bag.

That's just wrong.

Make sure you listen to the video, PFT doesn't pull any punches.

If anything..it was Sherman who was acting like a punk.

A total d-bag.

I understand trying to motivate teammates or whatever by playing up certain things, but to go publicly like that crossed the line. Plus, something as respectful as hand shaking is not right

Wow... an apology from Sherman. I feel really dumb for my own post.

Still doesn't change my looking forward to Mayfield dialing back being a tool in PCs and social media.

SO.....Sherman disrespected Mayield, disrespected the Browns, disrespected the 9'rs, disrespected his team mates, and disrespected the NFL.

Sounds like a classless college thing.

I am not giving up on the guy and he has a chance to succeed, but it hasn't been just "one" bad game. He's been bad for most of the year. His QBR is 31st out of 33 ranked qbs. Only Cam and Fales [Jets} are below him. He has twice as many picks as TDs. He isn't even completing 60% of his passes. He is making a ton of poor decisions and inaccurate throws. Many of those throws are sailing high.

He has also painted a target on his back and I get that some Brown's fans will defend him no matter what, but a lot of people associated w/the NFL are saying that the target is real and his poor performances are adding to that perception.

arch..but used to help motivate the 9ers, they beat our butts.

This team is so inexperienced in many ways yet our fans and most of the media fail to realize it before they begin running their mouths.

Another learning experience for this team and especially our younger players...I hope they remember these lessons.

I agree with everything you said. My point was that each week we have a post game thread. That thread is designated to address each game on an individual basis.

From that, people seem to draw some illogical conclusions that your opinion of that game or the play in that game means something far more than what you are posting.

I think Mayfield deserves a fair chance here. He has a great arm and possesses all of the physical ability to be a very good NFL QB.

There are still a lot of questions he needs to answer but some of that will take time. The mental part of the game is where he faces his biggest obstacles. Reading D's post snap. Understand the tendencies of his opponents just to name a couple of things.

Those things, as I mentioned will take some time to see if he grasps. Some QB's grow into those things and some never do. But it's far too early for me to make an assumption about those things either way.

Gotcha. I agree w/that.

My biggest concern is the reading post-snap coverages. I really think that is an innate gift that is about processing speed. There are things you can do to make it less of a glaring weakness, such as understanding tendencies, but it's always going to be an issue.

With that said, I am not positive he can't process what he sees fast enough. The sample size is still too small, but I have to admit, it's a legit concern right now.

Once again we agree. Thus my comment........

vers...I have to laugh...you inferred that Baker was a "crap QB" after the game. I think most know where you stand on Mayfield.

What part of he played like crap in that game can't you seem to grasp?

mac, I will gladly talk football w/you, but I am not going to exchange personal attacks. I am glad that I make you laugh, though.

Mayfield has an above average arm, which is good enough to do what ya need to do in the NFL..its by no means the canon Brady and Pre-Injury Peyton Manning and pre-injury Andrew Luck had, but it will be good enough if other things fall into place.

I am not suggesting giving up on Mayfield. I said i'd give him another two years, but if im picking in the Top 5 and Mayfield has not cemented himself as "the guy" then you have to take another QB and start exploring your options.

We have a ton of talent on this team, and a lot of money tied up in OBJ, Landry, etc. Why is it Mahomes has taken ahold of the reigns in KC and there is no question? Mahomes didn't have a great year last year than suck it up now. Mayfield at this point leave us more questions than answers.

If we are bad enough to have a Top 5 pick next year, the Browns would be doing their fans a disservice by not taking their due dilligence and taking another QB at that spot. If Mayfield ends up working out, we can trade this person for a King's ransom, If Mayfield doesn't work out we got a 1st RD guy that has sat for two years and learned and ready to take over. Either way we WIN in this scenario there is no losing.

Of course this would require Dorsey swallowing his pride and just "maybe" entertaining the possibility he was wrong and I am not sure he can or will do that.

I think Baker's arm strength is better than all three of those guys. I am not knocking any of their arms, but Baker has a very strong arm.

I know... I can't believe Baker did that!

I just don't understand fake planting your flag on your own field.

There's nothing to understand.

He was simply mocking him.

I don't recall Brady ever having a Rocket arm, or top arm in the NFL. I don't recall Manning have one either. Both good above average, but honestly, Bakers arm is better than both in their primes.

You then try to compare Mahommes to Baker. Mahommes sat an entire year watching a competent vet, under the tutaledge of a GREAT minded HC who has a history working with some of the best QBs the NFL has ever seen. He then stepped into a playoff team loaded with talent.

Baker got thrown into a mess last year, and although he now has a lot of talent - he has a rookie HC who we don't really know anything about, a team that has been put together over the last two years after winning 1-31 games, with 0 chemistry, a new offensive coordinator, a new defensive coordinator, new oline coach, etc.

To try to compare the two is, well.....not a valid comparison.

If we had a top 5 pick next year (we wont), it would be wise to trade down and pick as many lineman as we can. I find it funny you say to keep baker 2-3 years but want to draft a qb next year...… your agenda is showing.

I think you should take your own advice you are giving Dorsey.

It would've been perfect if they were on the Browns field, but I think the message was received regardless.

I also didn't understand attempting to plant a flag into artificial turf, but I'm not a college/pro superstar athlete...

Feh... Bakers arm strength was dicussed pre draft and i'm pretty sure the same guy said Baker had a below average arm. His arm strength is fine.

Bakers strength last year was accuracy and anticipation ... Baker was throwing the ball before WRs made their breaks or before they were open .... this year his accuracy and happy feet are concerning ... but more alarming is the play calling and scheme. Without improved playcalling and options to get the ball out quicker we wont get the ooportunity to fully judge Baker ... jmo

that anticipation is whats lacking this season.

gotta find a way to bring it back.

What's really strange is we saw the Baker Mayfield from last year on the very first drive of the year against Tennessee.

He hasn't been found since.

It's some strange mix of lack of confidence, coaching, scheme, lack of natural progression, and now I'm sure pressing.

The bye week could not come at a better time. I think he needs to step away.

I don't know. I think we saw spurts of it against the Ravens but not consistently.

i agree. lets hope he can step away during the bye coming off a big win against seattle.

Your the one who called Mayfield a "crap QB"...

I will agree that he had a bad game..but that isn't what you said about him.

If you have every played the game...you might notice it was not only Mayfield who had a bad game...it was a total team effort.

pitt..I have not excused Mayfield's performance but I do realize there are 10 other players on the offense. Those who have played game realize that.

Also, Mayfield has a coach game planning for the opponent.

If nobody else on this board won't do it, I guess Baker will...

Will he work hard enough - we will see

One thing I am going to give him credit for - he handled the Sherman controversy well, self deprecating (made the joke about video helping him this time) and was gracious in accepting Sherman’s apology.

I don't think he threw w/anticipation last year. I think he struggled making reads and did better when Freddie cut the field in half and tried to utilize the quick, one-read passing game.

A lot of people bringing up last year, but I'm not sure they really know what they saw and are now blaming the coaching and everyone around Baker. That's unfair in my book.

I think one thing that a lot of people are overlooking is that maybe teams have had time to study Baker and exploit his weaknesses. We have seen that w/many other qbs. And I think it kind of sucked that we played the Jets early in the season. Gregg Williams knows Baker and he showed Baker one look pre-snap and the switched the coverage post-snap. That confused Baker. I think other teams have followed suit.

That’s EXACTLY why I thought playing the Jets so early was a HORRIBLE break for us. Gregg would give everyone the blue print on how to defend Baker. I see it in basketball all the time when teams play each other early that really know each other.

Playing the Jets week 16 would have been much more beneficial haha

Baker made a lot of throws with anticipation last year. They may have been his first read, but he made them nonetheless.

He also made a ton of tight window throws with a lot of confidence. Those may have been his first read as well, but he threw them decisively and with accuracy. He was second in the league in plus level throws. Second, as a rookie. He made one of those throws to Higgins on the first drive against Tennessee. I began to expect them last year. I was surprised when we didn't convert 3rd and 15s. They were almost gimmes.

We don't even have the first read guy right now. It's got to be deeper than other coaches have tape on him or mixing coverages post snap. Those answers just can't be the whole story. We are watching QB play that isn't even good enough as a backup. I understood things may have been masked last year, but he put enough good on tape to make this complete reversal very surprising.

This is total BS! These guys have been playing football since they were 5yrs old! What do they possibly still have to learn? If they can't get themselves up for a game and FOCUS then they should quit playing. Yeah, you can't win them all, but you can at least look like you were prepared and ready to play. These guys are poorly coached, period. Who has improved this season? Mayfield is a disaster, Garret is one of the most penalized players in the NFL! Run D still sucks. Ward can't stay on the field...

Dorsey made the mistake of letting the coaching staff go that engineered the 2018 end of season run AND INSTILLED SOME DISCIPLINE. Then he weakened the offensive line trading Zietler for the unproductive Vernon. OBJ has always been a head case and a distraction. The Giants were LAUGHING all the way to the bank as we absorbed their two worst salary cap and locker room headaches!!! Way to go Dorsey....now here we are.

What has Vernon done? What has OBJ done? Going to be a frustrating season...get ready, 6-10 at best.

Someone should tell these guys to "shut the he77 up" and just PLAY FOOTBALL! Not to mention start fining them for STUPID penalties....

The preseason hype was laughable...

The comments by Wiley at beginning of season don't seem so off-base at the moment...do they?

my $0.02

What do you guys think of Cowherd's take here?

I don't like Cowherd, but aside from his incorrect handshake reference, I think I actually agree with his take which is TRADE OBJ...

One thing you fail to mention when comparing Mahomes with Baker is that this is Mahomes 3rd year in that offense. Baker is essentially on his third offense in 2 years.

I always find it interesting when someone will alter the truth or forget details to enhance their agenda....

I think his take is laughable.


Cowherd is a super douche.

Yes, you are not innocent in that regard.

So...........anyone wanna talk about this? Or, do you wanna talk about other posters?

Kinda breezed thru this. Need to go again. More in depth.

Pretty good. Enjoyable analysis as always.

I don't think he's regressed. There are, however, issues that are influencing his 2019 campaign. He wasn't one read last year. I like how he also said coaching has a large part in this. Baker is learning and will figure this out no doubt. It'll be fun when he does and no one will remember his struggles.

That’s a good explanation of his issues. He was much more calm and confident last year, whether that had to do with the play calling, the line, the personnel, etc. But this year he’s skittish. He’s not trusting his line, his reads, or the players around him. Rarely gets to his second read.

Of course I will...While the Oline hasn't held up, from the screen shots behind the QB which show better angles and distance with the DB'S.. ALL HE HAD TO DO in most instances was to shift his vision and go to the hot read.

Those open areas in the middle are there..even the one where Njoku gets hurt if he throws it early before he scrambles right, he'd have a clean throw and a safe catch.
So perhaps the offset that occured in TC really affected him more than we knew with the shuffling of the Oline, which needs to be fixed.
He has to settle down, become more aware that he doesn't need to leave the pocket and run, but shift and look for the open receivers.
While I do put blame on the protection in some instances , some of this is on the QB .
While he can make downfield throws he needs to become more of a manager of the downs, perhaps trying to see the shorter routes and anticipate the receiver coming open..

interesting stats:

According to Next Gen Stats, Mayfield is throwing into double coverage (defined as two defenders being within 1 yard of the receiver at pass arrival) at a rate twice that of any other quarterback in the league.

He also continues to hold on to the ball for far too long, opening himself to unnecessary hits and negative plays, whether sacks or turnovers. Mayfield's average time before unloading the ball Monday was 3.35 seconds, matching the longest he has taken to pass in a game in his career.

https://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-brow...-baker-mayfield

he is trying too hard and is not putting in the work with game film or... he is not trusting what he saw on film.

either way... this is a pretty easy fix.

Watch the game film with coaches and trust what you see on film during the game.

nope... he is in the same offense. Freddie made Monken learn the playbook from last year.

I don't know how many times this has been covered. I don't know how many more times it can be covered.


Ironically. (probably not intentional) you are altering the truth because it's the same playbook/offense




https://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-brow...innovative-look

The Browns will keep the same system and terminology; that continuity is key for a team that for so long has relied on restarts. Monken will learn the system Kitchens used, as opposed to the team learning Monken’s.

"He understands that him learning something new is a hell of a lot better and easier than 90 other guys learning what to do," Kitchens said.

We understand what was said... but I don't see how you can watch last year's games and the ones this year and call the two offenses the same. It's simply not the case.

Pleasssseee tell me how the Air Raid we are running now, is the same as last years...

You can trust what you read, I will trust what I am actually seeing on the field.

j/c:

Baker has the worst stats of any qb in the league. Yet, as I serf the board, I see things like the OL is to blame; the coaching staff is to blame; the WRs are running poor routes; OBJ should be traded and is holding this offense back; not having Higgins is the problem; Vers hates him.....LOL

He is not playing well. I highly doubt that it's everyone else's fault. I hope he gets it together and starts playing better

Wow. Holy crap. Letting that sink in. Throwing into double coverage at a rate that is twice that of any other QB?

It's been said many times before, by many people. Even with the success he had the 2nd half of last year, Baker far too often ignores the open guy underneath in favor of the covered guy deep. There is gun-slinger, and there is stupid. There is no shame in completing a pass for 8 yards on 2nd and 5.

He did get away with at times last year, but that should not give him Cate Blanchett to do it all the time. Take what they give you. Move the chains. Keep the ball. Salvage the season.

He should have Cate Blanchett to do it all the time. Wish I did...

For the record, I don't think anyone has said Baker isn't to blame. It's a culmination of all those things. Why you insist on making things up to stir the pot is typical but crazy and not necessary. People do read this board, you're not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes.

Baker played admirably last season. What changed? His O-line is weaker. He has new coaches with a new offense. He has lost players to injury. Teams have film of him... all these factors play a role whether you think they do or not.

I mean this happens to a lot of quarterbacks. Peyton Manning threw 43 interceptions his first 2 seasons in the league and he's going to the hall of fame. Yet there are people here who are saying "Baker's finished." Give me a break. Go hate somewhere else.

Baker is going to be just fine and he's going to be an elite quarterback in this league for years.

I’m not sure I’d say he’ll be an elite QB ... I didn’t even say that last year, simply because it’s way too early to say that IMO. It’s too early to say he’s a bust or he’s going to be elite.

Right now, we have to make him a manager, especially with our deficiencies on the OL. We put too much on his plate and he needs help taking some off.

That's fair.

He has all the tools to be an elite quarterback, it's just a matter if he brings it all together.

Yeah, I agree that he has most of the tools. (Obviously the height is nothing he can do about haha) ... but he’s gotta put the work in and really get to task on reading defenses and getting through progressions quicker. That seems to be his #1 flaw

I disagree, even if he puts it all together his physical limitations will make him an above average NFL Qb at best which in the right circumstances would be perfectly fine.

Nick Chubb was more responsible for our turn around last year than Mayfield. you look at every game we feature Chubb and EVERYTHING works. Nick Chubb is the cog in the wheel that makes eveyrhting turn, not Baker Mayfield.

If we want Mayfield to work out, we have to make his reads easier, and we do that by featuring Chubb and running the ball. If Chubb gets less than 25 carries a game, we failed, no matter what the score is don't matter, Chubb is threat to take it to the house every play.

Mayfield needs a running game to be successful in the NFL. Chubb averaged 5.2 yards a carry last year, and is averaging 5.2 yards per carry already this year...If we feature Chubb than teams can't drop 7 in zones and confuse Mayfield, they will have to play closer and more man coverage to contain Chubb, and this opens things up.

Mayfield is great when throwing against man coverage, he always has been, but he has been awful against zone. He was terrible last year against zone too..the Chargers and Raiders game are the 1st ones that come to mind.

If we want Mayfield to start turning it around, we gotta feed Chubb the ball, its as simple as that. Chubb is the savior of the Browns, not Mayfield. Chubb is the best pick the Browns have made since they took Earnest Byner in 1984....if Dorsey wants to keep his job, he would be smart to give him the ball and get the **** out of his way.

Your hate for Baker skews your perspective... completely, totally, utterly.

As soon as you say physical limitations, you've evaporated any credibility you might have had.

Baker is faster, taller, and stronger than Drew Brees.

Unless you honestly think Brees' physical limitations will keep him out of the hall of fame.

I stand by my original comments. If you believe Monken came in and we changed nothing and we are doing nothing different than last year that's not my fault.

j/c:

Here is link that bonefish posted in another forum. It's a pretty good read.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/10/10...-baker-mayfield

That link is 404, much like Freddie next season lol.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/10/10...-baker-mayfield

This article is much more unbiased.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-c...he-danger-zone/

Some big take aways. . . .

Kitchens’s scheme is heavily influenced by Bruce Arians, whom he served under on Arizona’s staff from 2013 to 2017. Both coaches love deep posts and other slower-developing routes that are aimed at attacking teams over the top.

-

There’s very little binding the Browns’ offensive plan together right now. Kitchens has found plenty of exciting ways to get the ball in Beckham’s hands—with tosses, reverses, and even pass attempts—but too often the offense has looked like a series of individual plays rather than a collection of linked concepts that complement one another. There’s no flow whatsoever, and a good chunk of that falls on Kitchens

-

On Cleveland’s opening play of the season, the Browns called a play-action pass with a simple slant-flat concept to the left. After taking a quick look at the slant route and deciding against it, Mayfield shifted his eyes all the way to the other side of the field and ripped a flat-footed throw to Rashard Higgins that was deflected by Titans linebacker Jayon Brown. Rather than check the ball down to running back Nick Chubb for an easy 6-yard completion .... SURELY NOT ... WE'VE BEEN TOLD BAKER IS A ONE LOOK QB THAT ONLY SEES ONE HALF OF THE FIELD.

Baker isn't playing well. Period. Kitchens is coaching like a rookie HC and is Calling bad games as an OC ... Not to mention how much pressure Baker is under (80%+ vs 49ers) ....it's all connected.

I'm a little wary reading The Ringer, but that was a pretty fair article. I feel like it didn't really dig too far into the nitty gritty, and left a little to be desired, but it was very fair. It probably helps that I agree with the article... :-p

There's no silver bullet to the issues we're facing on offense. Kitchens could magically clean up his ish and become the best playcaller the world has ever seen, and Mayfield would still be playing crappy and the receivers would still be making too many stupid mistakes. Mayfield could be all like, "psych... I was just goofing around this whole time" and end up being a young Drew Brees stepping out of a time machine, and... you get the idea.

Fixing one area will help with the others (playcalling and Mayfield's play), but no one thing is going to solve what we're seeing out there. To that end, I enjoyed the article pointing this out with specific examples from games (how there are multiple issues going on and influencing each other).

j/c:

I am not saying this in an argumentative way, but I do want to explain something for posters that are trying to learn more about the game. Posters like oober who said something the other day on the Offensive Scheme thread about having to see things more than once in order to wrap their head around it.

When folks say a qb is a one-read qb, they are NOT saying that qb always makes one read. They are saying that the qb struggles to go through his progressions [reads] quickly. The qb will have plays where he make multiple reads quickly if he recognizes the coverage quick enough, but generally, that qb will hold the ball too long if they are confused by the coverage.

Likewise, there are players like Brees and Brady who are known for how quickly they can read coverage and go through their progressions. However, they too, are sometimes confused by the coverage and hold the ball too long. It's a cumulative evaluation, not a one-play evaluation.

Also, I think there is some confusion about the "reading half the field" comment. People like myself are NOT saying that a player [like Baker] can only read half the field. That would be dumb. We are saying that qbs like Baker did better when asked to only read half the field.

ESPN did a great piece on Baker before the season and it was mentioned what Freddie did when he took over last year. The first thing was to cut the field and half so the reads would be easier. He also called for quicker plays that allowed Baker to get rid of the ball early. The idea was to hit the first read quickly. There was more, but I am just talking about those two because of the current subject matter.

Asking a young qb to read only half the field is not a rare thing, nor is it a new thing. We did the very same thing when Brady Quinn took over as our starter years ago. Guys like Lamar, Trubiski, etc have been asked to do the same thing.

The problem w/asking your qb to only read half the field is I don't think it is sustainable. As DCs get more tape on you, the more they can adjust their scheme and coverages to make it harder to only have to read half the field. It's the reason I posted Baker's distribution chart earlier this week. If we can see it, so can DCs.

I'll try and answer questions if I wasn't clear about things or if anyone wants more detail. However, I will not fight w/those who say "you hate Baker crowd."

This may be obvious, but when a coach/OC cuts the field in half, that's not meant as a permanent crutch, but more as a helper/transition step to getting a QB better acclimated to the NFL game, right?

I read your explanation, and my brain immediately took me to a snippet from one of the articles posted this morning or last night (The Ringer article), where one of the plays the broke down said that Mayfield saw his deep option (1st read) wasn't there, and then went to his second read, which was Higgins way the hell over on the other side of the field. Is this normal (to have the QB have to swing his eyes from one side of the field to the other)? Wouldn't you want the QB to have the easiest time moving from read to read? I doubt having the QB waiting on the longer route to develop, deciding it's not there, and then looking over to the opposite side (when he's already running out of time due to watching the longer route), having to find his second read and then determine to throw or not is much harder than keeping his first 2 reads w/in the same field of view.

Also, why are we having the long route being the first read? Shouldn't it be a medium route, then long and then dumpoff? If you have a QB that's struggling to progress through his reads, why chew up all your ~2.5 seconds waiting on that long route to develop and then having less time to successfully move onto the second read and properly deliver the ball? It would make more sense to first go with a less aggressive first option to save more time for Baker to process (as he is slower than he should be).

No he hasn't, he never had. He has the tools other elite QB's like Brees or Wilson have, but those elite QB's have other qualities that eclipse their shortcomings. We still have to see what BM has of special.

I have stated this last year, BM to be a good/elite QB needs very high 60's,middle 70% completions.

He needs to be in a system designed for this type of game (WCO), vertical, air raid offense is not the answer.

j/c:

6'1 or under + Big 12 Conference = Auto Fail

The fact that you think you have an idea of what is going on, then believe that Dorsey is the one that is calling the plays and how many touches Chubb is getting shows you know nothing.

I don't think its true. I think if Shanahan was designing our Offense and calling the plays, Baker would be good. The same with Todd Haley...

We just need a good and experienced offensive mind,so far I'm way more disappointed with Kitchens than with Baker.

I don't know the answer to that one. Coaches have different progressions on the route tree for different plays. I would think that "progression" isn't the case on most plays.




It depends on who is your primary target. However, it's much easier for the qb to go in one direction. For example, from short to long or long to short. It gets your eyes moving in the right direction. Most advanced passing schemes [beyond conservative high school teams] go from long to short rather than short to long.

No offense, but I think it quite clear that Freddie did a much better job w/Baker than Haley did.

This is exactly why people believe you are just here to troll.

You make some of the most insane off the wall comments when it comes to Bsker.

How did he do when Haley was his OC? Kick rocks.

That I honestly can't understand, with the amount of garbage GM's and presidents since we have returned, to have Browns fans turning against Dorsey is just unbelievable...

Haley was the first coach in more than 9 years that was able to have the team running... Now, maybe I was one of the few who could see that, but facts are facts...

I don't give a rats ass about Baker or who ever is the QB... Not anymore, I just want a competitive team.

Looking at the start of this year and on how the off season went, nobody sane can say Haley was wrong in sitting Baker...

Baker should have sit last year and take some humble pills and work in his craft... Sick and tired of QB's with signature moves.... they spend more time in the mirror than in practice.

Our coaching over that span has been FAR worse.

So you're trying to split hairs over whether a pound of feathers or a pound of lead weighs more.

No.

Saying 'FAR worse' shouldn't imply splitting hairs, whatsoever. In fact, the opposite.

I was speaking of the reality of the situation, not your opinion of it.

Sorry, I don't rely on your perceived reality of the situation. We've all learned that by now.

Did you not look at the roster all those years? Sure sounds like it.

huh? You mean by sitting and not playing chubb, one of the best rookie backs in the league last year, and one of the best backs in the league THIS year?

Pretty sure Hillis ran the ball, and J-Lew. So your wrong.

Haley sat baker? Pretty sure that was Hue's call. Your wrong again.

And yes, he was wrong in sitting baker, as baker was the best QB on our team and still is. He was wrong in not giving him any team reps as well. Just because the kid has had a few bad games, does not discredit 13 games previously where he broke the rookie TD record. You don't get to rewrite history to suit your agenda.

FYI - Bakers arm is still excellent in strength and velocity, not the noodle you claimed it was over and over last year.

You see, this is where you just flat out ignorant on the topic. You act like Baker was the one who forced himself to play last year for one. Swallow his humble pills? do you even read wth your saying?

Spend more time in the mirror than practice. Please tell me EXACTLY how many hours a day Baker is studying film and practicing, vs. looking in the mirror? I expect links, with FACTUAL information to back that up, or you can stop right now posting false information and lies. There used to be a standard on this board with posting something as a fact. I wish we started holding posters accountable to that again.

I agree with this completely. Haley called played as if baker was Big Ben.

The problem now is that Freddie is also calling plays as if baker was Big Ben.

Haley - as the OC for the Browns - was straight trash. That's a fact I know form watching the games & I have zero doubt any review of data/stats will verify and confirm. As indicated in the press at the time of his release, Haley had designs on Hue's job and they might have been a huge factor, idk. What I do know is that Freddie ran plays with Haley's offense that were light years better than Haley's play calling last year.

Swish I agree and thought the same thing at some point this year - Kitchens calling Kitchens plays this year is like watching Haley call plays last year. Big plays, long route development to get WR's open.... and we don't have the OL, and Baker is losing or has lost his confidence so has happy feet.

It's a little frustrating to keep saying but the rookie HC needs time. I really think he is constantly schooled in games, and wish Kitchens would give up OC duties so he can be a better HC. Feh - we'll see what happens.

I'm at the game Sunday, hoping for a reversion to some shorter/quicker plays and more Chubb.

j/c:

I think some things can be tweaked w/our scheme and play-calling, but it isn't the big deal that some are making it to be. While I don' put all the blame on Baker, he deserves quite a bit of it. When you have guys who played QB in the NFL pointing out some of the choices, decisions, and throws from Baker as a problem, it's probably wise to listen.

Based on the feedback of professionals who played the game being the ultimate arbitrator - and perhaps therefore diminishing the needs for us to actual debate things and just accept their opinions - I listened to local Charlotte Sport Radio about an hour ago driving home from the airport: I forget which ex professional player was discussing he Browns issues, but he was knowledgeable and seemed balanced. His assessment was that there is equal blame between Kitchens and Baker. He absolutely agreed that Baker doesn't look the same as last year and has struggled with accuracy and made some bad choices ... he also was highly critical of Kitchens and noted his struggles as HC and as the OC calling plays that take a long time to develop (he noted that Kitchen has some exposure or is an offshoot of the Arians offensive mindset of "going for it") ... and he also indicated that we have more than 1 weak link in the OL and that if Baker is waiting for things to open up, he may well feel like he's about to get killed even if the pocket is relatively clean.

Pretty certain I have heard similar on 850 AM this week too from pundits and players. I have not heard anyone say all the blame or even most of the blame lies with one or the other or the OL.

I don't hate Baker Mayfield. I am just point out what he has been so far.

What he did last year doesn't matter, there have many flash in the pan QB's.

Scott Mitchell threw for 4,338 yards(back in 1995 where it was much harder to pass the ball due to rules than it is now. You could mug receivers back then, hit them before the ball got there, etc it was all legit play) and 32 TD's, but he never done anything after that. Like Mayfield, Everyone thought he was the next franchise QB.

Rick Mirer as a rookie he set the NFL Rookie record for attempts, completions, and yards. He again however never done anything else in the NFL and his records were later broken by Peyton Manning. Again, like Mayfield, everyone thought he was the next franchise QB.

Derek Anderson from our own beloved Cleveland Browns won 10 games, threw 29 TD's, and over 3700 yards. He never got close to that again, many folks including people outside of Cleveland thought they finally found their QB, but he never reached those numbers again and done nothing after that.

In 1999 Steve Beurlein threw for 4, 436 yards and 36 TD's Everyone thought he was the "the guy", but he never was able to reach that success again.

Are you following me here? I could go on.

What Mayfield done last year doesn't mean anything. Past success does NOT indicate future success. A guy needs to pass the "eyeball test" and putting aside what Mayfield done last year, He is not passing the eyeball test.

Do you realize Baker Mayfield's QB rating of 13.1 is lower than any QB rating Deshone Kizer posted in the 2017 rookie campaign? How folks can defend that baffles me.

Look at Mayfield for what he is right now, forget last year, that was then, this is now. He isn't even playing up to backup quality at this point. Lots of fools gold and flash in the pan QB existed in the NFL in the last 30 years, and each game that goes by the more and more Mayfield looks like a Scott Mitchell or a Derek Anderson.

Its not that he isn't playing well, he looks completely LOST and SCARED out there. He doesn't even look like he even belongs on an NFL team. Right now he looks like a guy that only made the team because he was picked #1 by mistake.

The ball is in his court to fix this, but I have seen way too many bad QB's in my day. Just because he is the 1st pick in the draft doesn't mean he will end up being any good and right now he doesn't look good at all.

As i said before im willing to give him this year to figure it out and maybe next year if we see any progress, but right now he keeps taking steps backwards every week...i mean a 13 QBR that is beyond awful, beyond pitiful...The Patriots cut their back up early in the year and replaced him with someone for posting like a 68 QBR in relif of Brady...a 13? you kidding me?

This is pretty much in keeping with what most rational folks on here have been saying... while others seem to want to focus on the ONE think we need to do to fix it all.... whether that ONE THING is Baker or Freddie or whatever... we have multiple things not working here...

The only thing I will say is that Freddie is at the top of the food chain so he is going to take the most heat...

Really now? It was Dorsey that forced the trading of Carlos Hyde last year to play Chubb despite the fact that Hyde had 5 TD in 6 games...what more do you want from your starting RB? He was on pace for about 1100 yards...Dorsey wanted them to play Chubb so he made it happen.

Don't you kid yourself...Dorsey has big time say in who plays..Kitchens reports directly to Dorsey, Dorsey is his boss...why do you think he got the job? No way Arians,Williams, or McCarthy was going to be his underling...thats why they didn't get hired.

You don't hate Baker? Sure you do.

Tell you what - tell me how awesome Baker was last year? Sell him to me as a Rookie that played well.... Detail the things he excelled at. Hint - one of the post-draft claims you made was that Baker has a weak, below average arm. Let me see if you can sing his praises and verify that you can admit how drastically wrong you were on that topic.... Once we've established how well he played last year and have some sort of datum point we can discuss this year.

Who is trying to blame on one factor, other than perhaps KOB?

I have a feeling you are including me as part of the irrational group and that upsets me. I have never once placed all the blame on Baker. My comment that 888 replied to was that it was unwise to only blame the coaching staff and not even mention Baker.

There have not been very many "rational" takes about what is happening here. The biggest irrational take is when posters lead w/something like "your hate for Baker..." That has NOTHING to do w/how the team is playing or Baker is playing. It's a comment made to throw shade at another person and deflect attention away from Baker's performance.

I have tried very hard to have a rational discussion on here and my previous posts on this thread can confirm that.

Baker needs to lose the weight that he put on over the offseason. He claimed that it is added muscle so that he can take some more hits, but it doesn't look like muscle. It looks like cheeseburgers. I feel like anytime you mess with a QBs weight or work to increase muscle mass, it ends up screwing up their mechanics. And I am sure that this is at least partially responsible for the poor accuracy that he has shown all season.

I am not arguing w/you, but it looks like muscle to me. Baker even said he was hitting the weights this offseason when he made the comment about not working w/a qb coach. I have wondered if he is a bit to thick for a qb.

A lot of excuses being made for Baker.

I think it all boils down to this --

1. Baker is not capable of executing the offense as implemented. The reasons are many.

2. The coaching staff is unable to change the offense to something he is capable of executing. Not sure of the reasons why. Could be that it's hard to change midseason. Could be that there is no offense that he can currently execute.

That's really all there is. The players outside of Baker are fine. Baker is the issue. Hopefully he improves as the season goes on. Hopefully he works hard in the offseason to get better.

It's a really unfortunate turn of events for a season the fan base waited a long time for. I don't know what all the solutions are, but I do know this...this fan base deserves better than what we've seen so far.

Seriously, we will pound Seattle.

Honestly, increased muscle mass from weights will definitely screw up mechanics. It decreases the range of motion and decreases flexibility. I think this is common knowledge among athletic trainers, and if the coaches are encouraging him to put on muscle by lifting, then they don't know what they are doing.

Tom Brady is tall and skinny. His workouts focus on small loads with resistance bands and a focus on muscle pliability. There are some videos on youtube about it. If I were a young quarterback worried about taking too many hits, I would look at the oldest QBs in the league and figure out what has allowed them to prolong their careers.

love the optimism Lamp ... let’s hope!