So I hate to be the negative Nancy, but with the way this defense has played, and the way Wilks has been game planning and destroying some pretty impressive offenses, where do we go next year or the year after?

I know this is a good problem to have, but sooner or later - someone is going to come knocking on Wilks door with a HC gig. Its going just a given. And I would suspect he has a sour taste in his mouth from his 1 year stint, and wants another go at it.

This is the one thing I was concerned about with the staff we hired. I don't see any of these guys having much connection or loyalty to Freddie, so if Wilks goes, do you think a lot of the staff under him would go with him, or stay with the Browns?

I know its a good problem to have, but its something I wanted to see what others thought.

I’m more worried about our players that we have to re-sign in the near future: Garrett is going to cost a boatload, Randall won’t be cheap, Schobert is coming up now, we’ll have to make a determination on Ward within 18 months, Richardson is a 2 year deal, Vernon, Mitchell, Carrie, ... the list is long and it’s gonna be tough to choose how to make it all juggle

Just my opinion because I like to play the contract game based on who I think should/will remain:

- I don't think we pay for Randall. He might demand top FS money. I think that chance died when they couldn't come to terms last offseason.

- I hope we pay for Schobert, but I'm not optimsitic.

- He is not on your list but I think we cut Kirksey and commit to Wilson. This opens up $$.

- I think we lock up Garrett and pay up big time. No-brainer, really. We can also pick up his fifth year option to to buy time.

- Carrie is a super person but we are paying too much for him. He either takes a pay cut or we release him considering we have Ward, Mitchell, Williams.

- We can cut Vernon next year with zero dead cap, but I'm not sure we do that. Avery has been a healthy inactive.

- Really like Mitchell. We have him through 2020 and is worth more than Carrie by a good margin, IMO. I'd cut Carrie, extend Mitchell considering the injury concerns we've had with Ward since Day 1.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

What are you thoughts on losing coaches though? What if Wilks walks to another team, and takes 3 or 4 guys with him on the staff?

Wilks was fired after one year in ARI. I think he'll need to re-establish himself for a few more years before he gets another HC opportunity. Now, as far as lateral coordinator moves are concerned, I don't know how that process works and if a team can nix any interview.

This might spell the end of Kirksey in Cleveland.

I would suspect so.

Especially if Wilson continues to grow and play well.

This is where we need to start thinking about Being Belichick.

Look how many coordinators he has churned through over the last 20 years..... his system doesn't change; that defense doesn't really change. He brings guys up from within.

We should be making sure we have a guy or three in house that know this system well enough to teach it at a doctoral level.... those are the guys we look to promote and grow.

Reload from in-house.

Exactly ... have someone basically be a mentee and preparing to take over to maintain consistency

Our linebacker coach, Al Holcomb, was Steve Wilks defensive coordinator in Arizona. He'd be a logical replacement.

With that said, I think it'll take more than a year to wash the Arizona stink of off Wilks. He's also not the offensive guru that teams are always looking for. Also, with the turnover of head coaches nowadays you can get a pretty good replacement for coordinators. The Bears lost Vic Fangio and replaced him with Chuck Pagano. We lost Gregg Williams and replaced him with Wilks.

Right, but that sort of replacement generally brings a replacement of system which leads to roster churn, etc...

If we like what Wilks is doing and we feel it is who we are going forward, then we need to think in terms of replacements that come in and adopt OUR WAY, not ones that will insist on bringing in THEIR WAY.

Agreed, and there lies the problem, are those "in house" guys - or are those Wilks guys.

Sometimes it brings roster churn. The Bears basically have the same defensive roster they had last year. Obviously hiring a guy that fits is important.

Either way, I'd like to think Al Holcomb is our guy. He's done the job before and is learning under Wilks again. I also suspect Wilks would try to poach him if he ever got hired as a head coach elsewhere.

Again, though, the problem would be - would Al stay here, or go to Wilks new team as his DC?

If he's under contract he doesn't have a choice. In the end this is a great problem to have as it means our defense performed very well.

It is a great problem to have, but if its a promotion - he is allowed to leave I believe.

You believe wrong. It is only considered a promotion if you are going to be the head coach.

(This comes up literally everytime.)

Belichick is also a cyborg that works 2000 hours a week and has his fingers and his imprint on everything that goes on both offensively and defensively.. Some have argued that their DC is little more than a figurehead anyway, which is why so many have failed when they moved on.... and on offense, Tom Brady... all I can say... Can Freddie be that guy? Can Baker carry the team through stronger AND weaker defenses?

I agree with your premise that we should already be looking at a line of succession.. On the bright side, Wilkes had a brief stint as a HC and it didn't last long.. perhaps that will give teams concerns and, for that reason alone, we can keep him an extra year or two.

j/c:

I like what Wilks has done thus far, but it's too early to make a set evaluation on him. We might be changing our tune on him as the season progresses. The D has a lot of talent and I hope they can continue to improve, but it's early.

I also don't know if Wilks will be a hot HC candidate. It went terribly in Arizona and more teams are after the hot young offensive coach to turn their them around rather than a defensive guy.

I also question Holcomb. The Cardinal defense really regressed when Wilks and Holcomb took over.

I'm more worried about losing players than any of the coaches.

I disagree on the part about losing players more than the coaches.

The best teams historically in the NFL (NE, Pitt., etc.) lose players all the time. They keep their coaches and they keep their Franchise QB. Those seem to be the two key components to constant winning. Guys like Mitch, Carrie, etc are all replaceable.

We have his replacement already.

We need to be like the top teams. Put systems in and if they work keep them. Hire those who are willing to keep the system going. We have a team of young talent, imagine if they can stay in the same system for years.

It would be a huge disappointment if Schobert is not given a new deal.

He is playing at high level. Leading the defense. Leading in tackles yes but leading the defense.

He gets guys into position. His instincts are exceptional. He wraps up. He covers in space. He plays the whole field.

When you draft a guy and he does everything you ask. You have to pay those guys. Management has to show the players that effort and results will be rewarded.

I would gladly pay Schobert fair value. And feel great about him leading the defense for years to come.

If I'm Dorsey I am shopping Ward for quality anything...doubt he will ever play a full season...my $0.02

Ya got 9 months of the offseason to worry about blowing up continuity,
During the season,I'll just watch the season play out

Ward’d Finesse type style is definitely his down fall. His tackling, slight frame, and injury history leaves many concerns IMO

It is my understanding that all coaches are viewed the same. We can deny interviews unless they are for a head coaching position. All other moves, even to coordinator are considered a lateral move.

I thought an OC/DC could interview for another OC/DC job if a title of associate HC was offered as well ... could be wrong

One more to add to this list.....Ogunjobi.

He will be heading into the last year of his contract in 2020 and deserves an extension as well.

I agree completely about Joe. The guy is not flashy, but he is a very good player and the key to our defense. Smart guys who are in the right place at the right time and put up big numbers are worth paying.

Another note: The amount of criticism that Ward gets on this board boggles my mind.

I don’t get all the negativity about Ward either ... I been shaking my head about that for a week or so now ...

Dudes given up a few catches ... it’s like his standard is NO CATCHES TO HIS MAN OR IN HIS ZONE or he’s Done a bad job ...

I tried explaining this a couple of weeks ago after he was getting trashed, but people might want to consider that we were rolling our coverage to the other side to help protect Greddy a bit and Ward was left w/more of the field to cover. Also, Randall was out of position a couple of times in Cover 3 and Ward actually did a good job by leaving his zone and trying to chase down a dude who had crossed into the middle of the field. And it's nonsense to say he "can't tackle."

Forgot about Ogunjobi as well .. he’s someone we’ll have to consider as well

It's simple really.

If a player or coach has a bad game or games, they aren't any good. Perfection is the only standard that is accepted. If a player gets hurt he is worthless. Better trade him and move on. Once they have a bad game there's no recovering from that.

It's a reasonable take on things.

That about sums it up, lol

Nope. Only the Head Coach title is considered a promotion. All other positions, from Offensive Assistant to the Waterboy's Paperboy up to Offensive, Defensive, and Special Team Coordinator are all equal in that they are Assistant positions and any/all are considered a lateral move.

Haha. That's one take - and as a community we definitely tend to do that lol.

Another is that Ward looked like trash in the first game. Got smoked by a rookie for 50 and missed two tackles, his only two tackle opportunities. Not that I live and die by PFF, but he was the lowest grade on the team for week 1. He played better in week two but missed more tackles. After week two he led the league in missed tackles in the passing game.

Ward set the bar as a pro bowler, not the fans. Now he's been injured and injuries are becoming an m.o. with him. All this adds up to fans questioning him as a pro bowl caliber player. Overreaction? I think so. But expecting no negative reaction is a bit absurd imo.

People get crazy during the first few games of the season and tend to over-analyze. Ward has an incredible skill-set, is plenty athletic, seems like a great dude as well. I think many posters have maybe blocked out a few of his "stinkers" from last year. We fell in love with him from his first game, a diving pick of Big Ben will put your picture on mantles in Cleveland. He definitely had some ups and downs along the way though, he got torched against the Saints last year.

The other thing people seem to forget - CB is a feast or famine, play on an island, totally unforgiving position in the NFL. EVERBODY gets victimized from time to time.

Like when you hear an announcer say a player " likes to do <insert thing> and has been doing it like this all year" .... in Week 2.

its the same if myles doesn't get 3 sacks a game. hes a let down. smh.

Okay, thanks I didn’t know that

I love Schobert, but I do not think we will pony up on him. I think we roll the dice on Taki Taki. Just a feeling.

That would be a shame, he's playing amazingly this year (again)

Agreed. Unless Takitaki outright TAKES the job, you have to recognize and pay the talent.

[quote=FrankPitts]I love Schobert, but I do not think we will pony up on him. I think we roll the dice on Taki Taki. Just a feeling. [/quote
]

We better. He has been the heart and soul of the defense. He is a top 10 mlb in the league. It not like we are going to get a mlb in the top 10 in the nfl if his last name isnt Schobert.

J/C

Has Taki Taki gotten any time yet? I don’t even remember his name on STs

Nothing on defense. 52 snaps on Special Teams, which I think is 6th most on the team.

Okay thanks, I knew I hadn’t seen him on D

FATE, I really enjoyed your last post. Perspective and well-reasoned arguments, I'm a fan.

Although I agree with what you wrote that's not always necessary. Sometimes the best posts are the ones where the writer actually causes you to reconsider your preconceived opinion.

Anyway thanks, good post.

Thanks boss, I appreciate that. As fans, we can all tend to be a little short in the perspective dept this time of year, I'm as guilty as anyone.

Did I miss something, Ward n Greedy haven't played the last couple of games due to injury...How can he be trashed when he isn't playing.

Outside of being fra-gil-ee "I think its Italian" he is a very good CB. Greedy I just haven't seen enough yet, I have been happy with his tackling considering his reputation of being a non tackler.

jmho

I WANT to see Takitaki play more, but I can't remember seeing him at all lately. That said, I plan to play Schobert. He is having a solid year and has really anchored the defense. I would pay the man, but I am always shopping for a real mauler in our middle.

It is what it is with Wilkes. He probably will get another shot at some point. It probably won't be for a couple of years since he was just released for that position last year. It usually takes a few years before that comes around.

That said, with the Rooney rule, he might get interviews, and when that happens, you never know.

As for taking out staff, unless their contracts are up, he can't do that unless we allow it to happen. The only time we could not retain a coach under contract is if a team wants to him him as head coach.

Not the slightest worried about losing staff, its pointless.

We need to win and worry later IMO

Genard Avery just posted this:



I've yet to see one reasonable explanation as to why he's not playing.

The way this defense is playing, I don't think I'll miss Wilkes a bit if he gets another head coaching gig.

Same ole same ole D from the Brownies.

Bad to no tackling...Never able to set the edge...Continual loss of containment. Should I go on?

Our D is bad right now. Teams can rush on us at "will"kes. Pardon the pun..

The Avery situation is very odd, probably a whole backstory behind it.

That tweet wont do him any favors now either

Past 2 years with GW we didn't tackle, players hit and cut and had awful fundamentals.

I think its going to take some time be get back to good tackling and respect for the fundamentals and health of the players instead of targeting players.

Extremely odd, especially since it seemed we found a diamond in the rough. He was on a very good trajectory last year. I don't know if Dorsey would sit idle watching one of his steals of the draft sit for no reason (remember he traded Hyde simply so they had to play Chubb).

There has to be something going on.

Mystery to me as well.

Is he trying to get a scholarship?

Nope. Just a snap on defense.

Or released

Or traded to somewhere he will get playing time.

Here is the future of our defense...and the offense for that matter:

Joe Schobert, scheduled to become a free agent, says Browns haven’t offered him a contract extension

https://www.brownszone.com/2019/12/09/no...ract-extension/

Middle linebacker Joe Schobert is ninth in the league with 110 tackles, tied for third with four interceptions and making a strong push for his second Pro Bowl trip in three years.

He said the Browns haven’t offered him a contract extension.

“I let my agent handle all this kind of stuff, but my understanding is we haven’t gotten any offers,” Schobert said Monday. “So can’t really build on it from there.”

Schobert, a fourth-round pick out of Wisconsin in 2016, is in the final year of his rookie deal and scheduled to become a free agent in March. He’s said all along he’d like to stay.

“My No. 1 priority is to play the season out and do the best of my abilities and control what I can control,” he said. “At the moment I let my agent handle all of that stuff. I can’t really control what’s going on, what’s being said upstairs to my agent.

“I trust my agent. He’s going to do what’s best for me. I trust the Browns are going to do what’s best for the organization. In my perfect world, yeah, I’d be in Cleveland.”

The market may have been set Saturday when the Panthers signed Shaq Thompson, a first-round pick in 2015, to a four-year, $54.2 million extension with $28 million guaranteed. His $13 million average salary ranks sixth among NFL inside linebackers, according to spotrac.com.

“My agent texted me after that contract came out but obviously playing as a linebacker in the NFL you like to see stuff like that, especially when you’re in that similar situation,” Schobert said. “But it’s a different scenario, different teams.

“I’m sure after the season we’ll sit down and have some more detailed conversations about things that are going on in that scenario.”

He believes he’s played at a consistently high level throughout the season and would like a return trip to the Pro Bowl.

“Going to the Pro Bowl was great. It was a paid vacation,” Schobert said. “Had a lot of fun down there with the family, always want to go back any opportunity I can, so obviously voting is going on. It’s a social vote, fans vote.

“I’ve tried to push for me and other guys on defense for the Browns to get there because it was a great experience. I’d want anybody who deserves it to be there to be able to experience it. I guess you’ve got to see what happens. Can’t get too caught up in it, though.”

I’ll be surprised if we don’t sign him. He’s a good, productive and smart player. And a leader.

Those are the qualities that get you gone around here, lol.

The longer we wait the higher his price goes up. It's important to re-sign players early. Dorsey dropping the ball.

He’s saying all the right things ... I hope we end up signing him. He’s become one of our best players

I would not be surprised if we let him walk. Dorsey doesn't seem like a guy that cares too much to keep players he didn't draft, unless that's a crazy special generational talent like Myles.

I could easily see Joe walking without a serious offer.

Hope he is back. Doesn't need his ego to be baby-sat. Just a core guy who is playing above my expectations this season. Wake Dorsey.

I don't see how he can't sign him...

I can see us getting the offense figured out next year and then the defense struggles because we have no good linebackers. Wilson hasn't been very good and I don't think Kirksey is going to be here next year. We also traded away Avery.

Unless Takitaki pans out, we're screwed.

Absolutely no way Dorsey can let schobert walk.

He’s a big reason our defense is currently ranked 12th. Again, while everybody is complaining our defense, they have performed way better than our offense has, especially since that side of the unit has dealt with more injuries (and major suspension) than the offense.

j/c

Teams can't even contact FA's until March 16th concerning free agency. That's over three months from now. It's a little early for people to begin to panic. And that doesn't even consider tagging players.

A lot cheaper (relatively speaking) to extend players now than to wait until the offseason.

We better sign him period.

How so? Do you believe players agents suddenly know their value after the season is over, but not during the season?

I would agree that if the player wants to stay here and the FO wants him here, you can often get a favorable deal. But I don't think the timing of that deal really changes until the FA period starts.

IDK if its cheaper to do it now, but 1. you at least dont have anyone bidding against yet. 2. Its one less thing you have to focus on come the off season. 3. Doing it early adn fast, shows the team you are ready to take care of your own and reward good play and good teamwork.

As far as the positives of doing it now, we can debate, but i think its obvious there are no negatives

There's certainly nothing negative in doing it early. But I will repeat that no other teams can even talk to FA's until March 16th. So as far as other offers there's still plenty of time.

From what I've read, it seems like it's best to do it now instead of later and money is a big reason for that... on top of that, why wait? Get r done!

No real reason to wait as far as I can see. But still over three months away from any other team being able to talk to him.

We did the same already for Tretter, so that's somewhat comforting.

I'm not worried about not having a deal in place yet, but it's a little curious that there seems to be no movement at all (Schobert said no offer, but kinda made it sound like it was even quieter than that, when reading between the lines).

I'm sure we will offer him a new contract

he is one of the best LB's in the NFL.

I think Dorsey is letting the chips fall where they may to see how much we will pay Schobert and for how many years.

I'd bet Scho will be signing a 5 year 90 mill contract or 6 years 100 mill

j/c...

I could see them trading Kirksey before Schobert. Wilson has proved he can play, and probably will get better. I like Kirksey, but when was the last time he played a whole season.

I think this team, through regime after regime, jettisons good players too quickly. It's good to have good players.

Kirksey will cost another team almost $9 million and $10 million over the next 2 years, if traded.

He will have played 9 games in 2018-2019. He's also not a big play LB. That's not a value teams are looking for. He would definitely get a look as a free agent elsewhere .... but I just don't see anyone trading for him.

So Thompson gets 13.5 per year with 28 guaranteed. How's that work as far as cap hit if he is cut before June 1st of his final year. Are the Panthers on the hook for 7 million because guaranteed money is divided up by the year, but they would be off the hook for the other 6.5?

I would expect a long-term deal for Joe and I would expect him to play it out as a Brown. The dude is crazy athletic and is only 26. Say we gave him a 6 year deal through age 32. Sure he loses a step in the last year or so, but his headiness maintains the level of play. He's quoted as wanting to stay in Cleveland, so will a little less yearly average with more years entice him.

6 years 66 million with 42 guaranteed; 11 million per year with 7 guaranteed. He doesn't quite get the base salary of Thompson, but has the same guaranteed dollars per year and the added security of extended years.

Can the guaranteed dollars be front-loaded? Give him 8.5 the first four years for a total of 34 million. Year 5 comes and he is used up. The Browns could cut him before June 1st and only be out the final 8 million of the 42 and could save 7 per year on the cap right?

Yup, you can front load the heck out of it. There are limits on how much it varies from one year to the next as far as how you account for it, but you can definitely front-load. Plus, there are additional things you can do like roster and workout bonuses to get him additional front-loaded money.

Folks realize we are ranked 26th against the run with a 4.8 per carry at
128.2 per game. Why bother to pass a lot against us and throw dump off pass's.. Nickel and dime your way down the field ! See when posters talk about a Defense ranked 12 or 13 ; stats don't really add up ..

Myles Garrett is healthy and we can't watch him play.

NFL, No Fun!

Has he? Not snaky, just don't remember a full season.

Schobert. Needs rewarded IMO.

Still have the nagging feeling Browns will continue to drag their feet and let Schobert walk. Token offer that will be easily bested by another team. Will moan about the cap.

How many times and regimes do we see new(er) regimes undervalue talent they did not draft?

Kirksey in my opinion will not make the roster next year. We do not even play more than 2 LBs in our base D. Wilson, Takitaki, and a 2020 drafted LB is the future. I'll be happy if we sign Schobert, but I do not believe we will.

If they let Schobert walk, Dorsey is a fool!

Never thought I would ever say that!

Just because these GM's don't draft a player they inherit, it seems like they are hell bent to move them off the roster just for spite.

When did Dorsey ever say that?

Joe Schobert is our best player on defense. He also seems to be getting better. It would be a shame if we let him go because his best years are ahead of him.
Miles is a playmaker but needs more maturity and consistency.
Ward has great cover skills until he is forced to turn and run plus he seems brittle.
Williams has a long ways to go in all areas and should not be starting ahead of Mittchell.
Richardson and Oganjobi are solid.
Randle needs replaced.
Wilson looks like a keeper.
Redwine seems to be coming on.
Burris adds quality depth.
Taki Taki hasn't shown me anything.
Vernon has looked average.
Our offense hasn't done our defense any favors this year with turnovers but the defense still needs some pieces.

Just read a report by MKC the Browns plan to let Joe Shobert walk. Why should any of us be surprised?

I take anything MKC reports with a grain of salt.I just don't see how we could let Shobert walk

ICYMI, every headline that comes from MKC has one purpose and one purpose only.

I agree. I'll wait until Joe is not here before I believe he's not here. If for some reason they let Joe walk, this whole thing is upsetting and baffling.

We were set up for so much early success when Dorsey came in. It was a dream scenario for anyone they hired. But we jettison all our good players and continue to turn over the roster. Why?

What is the plan here?

There is no future with this defense.

I saw Hospital Ward walking off again. I couldn't hear....what was the problem this time?

It didn’t help that we had two DL playing today whom I didn’t know were on the roster. Ankou, and 97.

I would like to know that as well. And our tackling was criminally absent.

What are we building off of on either side of the ball? By about any measure, I feel we are playing worse than earlier this year, especially considering the strength of teams clobbering us, and in light of the class of the skill players we ares being. We make them look like world beaters. maybe it is time for the backup. Seems to work for other teams.

Just win, baby!

Is anyone ready to start saying Dorsey is failing?

We’ve seen worse. And the defense isn’t the issue...it’s discipline that a guy like Greg Williams brought us. Time to admit, Kitchens as HC was just another mistake in a long line of mistakes. Stop screwing around with first time ever head coach’s. Time to get an experienced SB winning HC here ASAP.

Imagine not having that extra second round pick from the Osweiler deal that netted us Chubb. If we had just one 2nd Rounder, the choice was Corbett > Chubb.

And he traded him away for what? a 4th rd pick?


Yikes.

5th round pick for Corbett.

Are you really trying to make a case for Sashi? Eww....


Re: the MKC article... I took the bait and clicked. I know I shouldn't have, but I did. I read the article, and there's absolutely nothing there. Her premise is that they're letting Schobert walk based on him not being signed yet. I sent a very snarky email to PFT about the practice of using MKC as a source.

I'll admit, letting Schobert walk is very much par for the course for the Browns, but I'll actually start worrying when we hear concrete evidence that Dorsey doesn't want to pay him.

Let’s talk about Cleveland Browns, Myles Garrett, Joe Schobert, front office decisions

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/02...-decisions.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
ABOUT MYLES GARRETT

My guess is Myles Garrett agreed to talk to ESPN because he thought it was a way for fans to get to know him as something more than the guy who bashed Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Mason Rudolph in the head with a helmet.

Garrett is an intelligent, thoughtful person who has distinguished himself in Northeast Ohio with his charity work and school appearances.

I don’t know Garrett well, but I like him as a player and a person.

When he says Rudolph said a racial slur in their altercation, I tend to believe him. Or at least, I believe he heard something very inflammatory. He said Rudolph used the N-word.

Rudolph and Steeler players who were close to the action deny it.

Garrett was suspended for the final six games of the season. It cost him more than $1.1 million in missed salary. He was demonized for a time as one of the worst perpetrators of violence in NFL history.

But in 2006, Albert Haynesworth did the following, as recounted by the Bleacher Report’s Ryan Rudnansky:

“In what would become known as “The Stomping Incident,” Haynesworth removed Dallas Cowboys center Andre Gurode’s helmet and stomped on his head, opening up a severe wound and narrowly missing his right eye. Haynesworth received a 15-yard unsportsmanlike penalty. When he protested and threw his helmet onto the field, another 15-yard penalty was assessed, and he was ejected. Shortly after, Haynesworth was given a five-game suspension.”

So let’s not pretend outlandish/dangerous behavior is new to football.

But at this point with the NFL lifting his suspension, I wish Garrett had simply let it go.

As he admitted to ESPN’s Mina Kimes:

"I didn’t want to try to use it as justification for my actions because there’s nothing to justify. There’s nothing that [he] can say or do to justify what I did on that day. I know what happened.

"I know what I heard and people say things when they’re heated or they’re full of emotion and I leave it on the field. He said it, but that was three months ago, four months ago now and I leave that behind.''

At this point, Garrett would be wise to take his own advice.



ABOUT THE DEFENSE

1. While some in the media and fans would like to see Garrett be more dominant, he had 10 sacks in 10 games. That projects to 16 in a full 16-game season, which would have ranked him fourth in the NFL. He still ranked No. 18, and no one in front of him played fewer than 14 games.

2. If the Browns are debating about bringing back Olivier Vernon for $15 million in 2020, they should just stop. Yes, the Browns need another defensive end. And yes, Vernon has been pretty good to Pro Bowl-caliber when he’s played. But he’s missed four, five and six games respectively over the last three years. He is injury prone, period.

3. I love Christian Kirksey as a person and team leader. But after playing all 16 games in each of his first four seasons, he’s played only 9-of-32 games in the last two years because of major injuries. His contract is $7.5 million. According to overthecap, the Browns have about $50 million in salary-cap room.

4. I would pass on Vernon and Kirksey, cutting $22.5 million off the salary cap. I’d use some of that cash to “overpay” for middle linebacker Joe Schobert, who has missed only three games in his first four seasons. He is a free agent. I heard he wanted big money, something like $13 million or more annually. New GM Andrew Berry was part of the 2016 front office that picked Schobert in the fourth round. This regime should appreciate his value to the team. Every defensive coordinator (he’s had three) raved about his knowledge of the game and leadership.

5. After Vernon and Garrett, there are few other options at defensive end. The John Dorsey front office drafted Chad Thomas and thought he could be a starter. He played in all 16 games (44 percent of snaps) and had four sacks. The other backup was Bryan Cox Jr., who didn’t play much.

6. The Browns have a pair of good defensive tackles in Sheldon Richardson and Larry Ogunjobi. Richardson played some defensive end near the end of the season and looked good. While there is a major need on the offensive line (perhaps two tackles), the defensive line also requires help.

7. A possible free agent for the Browns at defensive end? How about Carl Nassib? Yes, the same Carl Nassib who was a third-round Browns pick in 2016. The same Carl Nassib cut by Dorsey at the start of the 2018 season. And the same Carl Nassib who has 12.5 sacks in the last two seasons playing 50 percent of the snaps for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

8. Nassib was a victim of Dorsey’s purge. He would have helped the Browns the last two years and done it on a cheap rookie contract. I hope Berry doesn’t fall into the same trap of quickly dumping the previous regime’s draft picks without giving them serious consideration.

9. I wondered what happened to defensive end/outside linebacker Genard Avery, a fifth-round pick by Dorsey in 2018 who had a promising rookie year with 4.5 sacks. He fell out of favor with the Steve Wilks defense in 2019 and was traded to the Philadelphia Eagles for a fourth-round pick. He played only 33 snaps on defense for the Eagles. He was a core special teams player.

10. Here’s another reason I favor keeping Schobert, especially if Kirksey is gone. The other linebackers of note are Mack Wilson, Sione Takitaki and Adarius Taylor. Wilson showed some talent as an outside linebacker. Takitaki was injured early in the season, and didn’t play much (107 snaps for the season). They need a linebacker who knows how to keep order with younger players.

Pluto brings up Nassib.... All is right in the world.


#TheDorseyWay
#NotARealPlayer

The Browns brought back bums to the FO. Might as well bring bums players, too.

To be fair Carl Nassib outplayed Olivier Vernon.

Probably so. That still doesn't mean that Carl isn't just a guy.

I hope we can do a little better than him.

According to whom? PFF has Vernon at 80.4 overall and Nassib at 69.3.

Not that PFF is infallible, just curious as to what measure you're going by.

Didn't watch a lot of TB, but I'm guessing Nassib benefitted from cleanup sacks after someone else flushed a QB from the pocket like he did here (and at Penn St). Did he still leave gaping running lanes as he ran himself out of plays?

Nassib was probably still better than Chad Thomas, but Vernon was sneaky good when he played.

Are you sure about that?

Vernon's overall PFF grade for 2019 was 80.4
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/olivier-vernon/7074

Nassib's overall PFF grade for 2019 was 69.3
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/carl-nassib/10699

Nassib is absolutely just-a-guy. But he was/is better than the stiffs Dorsey brought in last year. His teammates voted him as a Captain.

Nassib made approx $2 million...Vernon made a cool $15.5 million.

Nassib was essentially a free late-round pick to Tampa. Vernon was - arguably - part of the package that cost us a 1st Rd pick and a Pro Bowl RG.

Nassib is 26 (?) and Vernon is 30.

I wish both guys were on my team.

Willie, I would love to have nassib back in the fold. he is not a bum. as a situational pass rusher he could contribute. As far as Vernon, he is really well paid for his availability and productivity but I would not do anything until I had a better option aboard.

as for our new leadership, like most browns fans I will give them a chance to prove themselves. I think only a small number of our narrow minded fans have proclaimed them bums before they have done anything.

Nassib is a huge liability against the run. No thanks.

Get us a Bosa! Problem solved.

Hey look. Debate by insulting others.

Also, many of these guys were already here. Depo, Berry, Grigson, and other guys from the analytics were here and they went 1 and 31.

I also wasn't pimping Vernon. I just provided links to try to get to the truth after another poster said that Nassib played better than Vernon last year. God forbid we use actual facts in a discussion.

I think people confuse highlights and what they see or hear in passing to determine if one player plays better than another. I sometimes fall victim to that myself.

The only way to truly make claims like that is to watch full games of players being compared and try to understand what they are seeing and what is being asked of the player.

There is a lot to it. I actually worked for a collegiate scouting service for two years. Sacks are cool. However, some dudes rush full out and don't maintain outside containment or do not do a good job of gap responsibility.

There are a couple of posters who loved the Analytics guys when they were here and were always looking for ways to bash Dorsey. Nassib is one of the guys they pointed to. He did get some sacks and they brought hat up, but the guy is not a very good player.

And I say that as a guy who mentioned him as a possible draft choice back in the day.

Olivier Vernon had 3.5 sacks in 2019 for his 15 million dollar pay check and only cost the Browns their best OLineman Kevin Zietler. He will more than likely be a cap causality this year.

Carl Nassib had 6 sacks in 2019. I am not saying I want him back in 2020. I just thought Vernon was a huge bust last year. Heck, Emmanuel Ogbah had 5.5 sacks last year and Vernon was suppose to be an upgrade for him.

You can think what you want. I was just providing information from an independent source. Is that okay?

Btw............no one talks about this and some even say that the Browns got ripped off in the trades, but.......

With Zeitler, Barkley had about 300 fewer rushing yards this past season than w/out him.

Also, the Giants D was one of the very worst in the entire league last year and ranked below the Browns.

But, once again, let's not let facts get in the way of an agenda.

Barkley was dealing with a high ankle injury that hindered his productivity for weeks, missed three games, and had roughly 50 fewer rush attempts.

So yes, let's "not let facts get in the way of an agenda" by insinuating Zeitler was the main issue for his 300 yard discrepancy from 2018-2019.

JMO, but it was dumb for Garrett to talk to espn and talk about this., No way anything good comes of it.

I think you have your threads confused. Or I do.

Sacks don’t tell the whole story
Sacks don’t tell the whole story
Sacks don’t tell the whole story

j/c:

I was not insinuating that the Giants OL got worse w/Zeitler. He's a good player. However, there are a lot of folks on here who are acting like Dorsey got ripped off in the trade[s] w/the Giants. I don't agree w/that at all. Those guys did not help the Giants all that much. They sucked on O and D and had a worse record than the Browns.

Btw------OBJ had a core injury all year and recently had surgery for it. Vernon was also troubled by injuries during the year. Let's not allow those facts to get in the way of a good agenda, either.


With that said, I would not be surprised to see the Browns part ways w/Vernon. I only talked about Vernon because someone said that Nassib had a better year than Vernon. I posted PFF's grades on both Vernon and Nassib. Vernon's overall grade was significantly higher. The OP ignored that and came back w/more opinion.

Don't you always trash PFF?

We probably need to move on from Vernon.

He is in the last year of his deal at $15mil or so. I don't mind the money so much if he was the kind of player we would sign to one last contract.

Based on his age and injury history the last 3 years, we wouldn't sign him, so we might as well take the $15 mil this year and apply it to someone else. Be is possibly Sobert or another, and or use it in FA.

We have a lot of holes in the nuts and bolts positions on this team. Dorsey did a great job bringing in skill positions, but we need tackles on both sides of the Oline and one at DT. We need a guard. We need better backers, thought to be fair, we did draft two last year, so the book isn't closed on them.

He did what looks to be a good job of bringing in a couple of corners who might go from great, to at last good. He looks to have done a superb job job with our kickers.

I understand the Zeitler deal. John wanted OBJ and you can't give up crap to get a guy like that. He drafted Corbett the year before. He felt Corbett could take over. Well, it didn't work that way. I don't hold that against him. Nobody hits every dad-gum pick. If GM hits on 2-3 picks a year they are beating the average.

I honestly would have liked for Dorsey to be here today, and he could have. Maybe not exactly as it was, but he could still be GM had his ego not gotten in the way.

Dorsey has had 2 GM jobs, or was he GM in Green bay as well? Anyway, all ended in a power struggle of some sort or his inability to work well with others. He should still be the GM in KC. I don't know all the reasons why he was let go, but there had to be a reason, and evidently whatever the reason, the team didn't make a wrong decision.

The problem is we don't have an answer on the roster to replace Vernon at DE. Not re-signing in the future is fine. Let him go and see if we get a comp pick. Why make a hole now if we don't need to, though?

Good DEs are hard to find. We have other needs in the draft, namely OT. Any free agents that would be better at DE are likely to be even more expensive.

What's the hurry to move on?

Cut Vernon with no replacement or sign someone like Vernon to a similar contract but for more guarantees and longer terms.

The guy is injury prone. I don't like to make holes, but he will himself. If they can't play, that's a hole, right? The guy has injury history and in over 30. Hello?

I think a gamble worth taking. Maybe we don't have to do it right away. Not sure of his terms. Maybe we can wait.


Who would you rather have? No "both" as an answer for this question...Sohbert or Vernon?

j/c

Within the fanbase, there seem to be some conflicting impulses. Gutting the roster produces angst among fans At the same time paying high salaries at positions of need where there aren't many obvious alternatives seems to be irritating fans just as much. I don't understand the compulsion to be top 5 or top 10 in cap space as a goal unto itself.

We have time to create the space needed to resign Garrett, Ward, and Mayfield. It would seem to make more sense to add depth to the roster with mid-level FAs who have upside and players on rookie contracts than to just go cutting guys willy-nilly.

Of course, there are players that should be released. Robinson, Hubbard, and Harris are on my list. The stopgap o-linemen that Dorsey signed should be allowed to walk too.

Signing and Edge player like Shaq Lawson makes more sense financially than Arik Armstead, Quinton Spain instead of Joe Thuney, maybe Ha Ha Dix can be signed to a reasonable deal and be serviceable while we develop a younger player. This is the approach I'd hope to see used this offseason.

To quote your beer holder:

"Mmmm Hmmm"

Both. There is no reason we can't have both Vernon and Schobert on the roster.

If you want to cut Vernon you are accepting Chad Thomas (PFF's worst graded edge defender in the league in 2019), Bryan Cox, Porter Gustin, or Robert McCray as his replacement There is no guarantee we can find someone of the same quality as Vernon on the free agent market or in the draft. On top of that Vernon only has one year left on his contract while a free agent would likely cost more money in guarantees which would inhibit re-signing guys like Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, Nick Chubb, and Baker Mayfield.

Cutting Olivier Vernon would be short-sighted. Let's keep our quality players for once.

Keep Joe Schobert/ Cut Olivier Vernon. He was a terrible [ick up last season. Did nothing to improve the defense. Actually, was a reason it was worse.

If by terrible you mean injured, then yes, he was terrible. When on the field Vernon was above-average in the run game and average in rushing the passer. You are not finding that on the open market for one year and $15 million.

You can find his value to the team on the waiver wire. He done nothing!!!!

I should amend this and say that you "probably won't" find a player like Vernon instead of "can't". Teams do luck into player like the Buccaneers did last year with Shaq Barrett bur there is a ton of uncertainty. Vernon at least brings certainty to the position whereas if we sign random player X as a free agent the results can vary a ton.

No, I don't.

I never agree that they are the end-all and question some of their ratings, such as when they had John Hughes as one of the top-rated DTs in the league. I also have thought that their DB ratings are peculiar at times. But, I think they do a good job and have posted their results numerous times.

I don't agree with everything in this article but on the main point of keeping Vernon for the coming season, I do.

Browns May Not Love Olivier Vernon's Salary, But The Alternatives Are No Better
Pete Smith

Feb 13, 2020


Even if defensive end Olivier Vernon isn't worth $15.5 million this season, the Cleveland Browns need him more than he needs the Browns. Healthy, Vernon was the second best player on the defense last year behind Myles Garrett, providing a massive advantage the first half of the season, helping short-circuit Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore Ravens, giving them a golden opportunity to beat the Seattle Seahawks and serving up the Los Angeles Rams to an offense that couldn't capitalize. For a team that is trying to compete now and take steps forward, they don't have much leverage in negotiating with Vernon.

The Browns are likely to ask Vernon to restructure to open up some additional salary cap. And maybe Vernon and his agent would accommodate them on that front, but he's set to walk after this season anyway, so he may be perfectly happy to stand his ground for the full $15.5 million. The problem for the Browns is the previous general manager left them with a group of defensive ends that are largely unplayable. Outside of Garrett and Vernon, the rest of the edge players on their roster include Chad Thomas, who can't play dead, Porter Gustin, Bryan Cox Jr. and Robert McCray III, who didn't play last year.


In the event Vernon held his ground and the Browns opted to release him, they quickly become a desperate team when it comes to looking for edge help. The Browns aren't in a position to be competitive to go after players like Yannick Ngakoue, who could easily command a contract worth $17 million annually. They can try to cobble together a couple mid tier fee agents, but they may find themselves in a position where they have to overpay them, which is the problem they are already facing.

No, Vernon's not going to get $15.5 million on the open market. But whatever he gets, which could easily approach $10 million, it won't be in Cleveland. The moral high ground still leaves them with a massive hole at defensive end. To this point in his career, Vernon has earned $73.3 million. Maybe an extra $2 or $3 million is incredibly important to him, so he takes a small pay cut to stay with the Browns, but it just doesn't come off as a credible threat.

The Browns should look to address defensive end in the draft for life after Vernon, but with him in the fold, they can address it from a position of strength as opposed to chasing after a need. With offensive tackle likely to be their first pick of the draft, it would almost force them to take an edge player with one of their next three picks, regardless of the value, which is hardly ideal.

Vernon's contract figure may be cumbersome, but it takes care of itself after this year. The Browns have a very credible defensive end opposite Garrett that dominated multiple games last year, allows them to add edge help through free agency and the draft on their terms, and when he leaves in free agency next year, his parting gift could be a compensatory pick.

Most, if not all of Vernon's $15.5 million is going to go right to Myles Garrett in 2020. Currently, Garrett is slated to earn a little over $9.6 million in 2020. If the Browns simply pick up his fifth year option, he would then earn around $16 million in 2021. That's $6.4 million from the $15.5 million going to Garrett, leaving them with $9.1 million to operate with for that year. They still have to account for the money that is going to Garrett on his contract extension in 2021.

More likely, Garrett and the Browns will skip the fifth year option and go right to negotiating a massive contract extension to keep Garrett on the Browns for the next six or seven years, averaging in excess of $20 million per season. If that first year is close to $25 million, it completely encapsulates what Vernon was making this year. In that scenario, it's potentially Garrett and Vernon for one more year to then go to just Garrett. In 2021, they are already going to be making the same calculation when it comes to Denzel Ward and Baker Mayfield, so they just don't have much room to add multiple big contracts in free agency that cut into that space. In that sense, Vernon's contract, however ugly the number may be, fits right into where the Browns are headed anyway, but offers the opportunity to pick up a draft pick down the road.

The Browns have multiple avenues for cap relief.

Chris Kirksey - $7.55 million

T.J. Carrie - $6.35 million

Chris Hubbard - $4.68 million

Morgan Burnett - $3.375 million


Freeing themselves up from those four contracts would add $22.1 million in salary cap space, giving the Browns some flexibility to operate in signing their own players like Joe Schobert, if they choose to pursue that path, as well as making some moves in free agency. They aren't in a position to throw a ton of money around because of what's coming on the horizon, but they could add one premier free agent. Based on what's available in free agency as opposed to what's going to be coming in this year's NFL Draft, the most prudent move would be targeting a free safety with players like Anthony Harris and potentially Justin Simmons entering the open market.

They can certainly see if Vernon is open to taking a small paycut, but it's difficult to imagine he's going to give up $5 million this year, unless they plan to add years. There's just not much incentive for Vernon to do the Browns a favor when he's gone after this year anyway. Maybe he's willing to give up $2 or $3 million, because that would be more than he can get on the open market, but that's hardly a game changer for the Browns salary cap structure for this year or next. Vernon being the highest paid player on the Browns this year may not be ideal, but it's not nearly the problem its made out to be and the front office's options seem limited.

SI Maven. Don't click.

Too cryptic for me.

I'd rather have Burris playing LB (or Harvey or Meander) than see Thomas taking major reps at DE.

For this season I'd rather have Vernon. His backups looked pitiful.

I don't want to overpay for an average LB because all his coaches have liked him. His picks last season came against Rudolph, who Myles terrorized that whole game, and Fitzpatrick, who was down 3 scores and was playing behind a porous OL.

I don't think any offensive coordinator stays up at night worrying about how he's going to handle Joe Schobert.

I think they'd worry a lot more about how to slow down Myles and Olivier. Myles and Chad Thomas not nearly as much.

As I said, why not hold him, then cut him?

After reading the article I change my position, because as pointed out, we really don't have much choice