I really didn't want to start a new thread, but I couldn't find one to put this since the other Baker thread is locked and the other threads on page one don't mention him or the QBs.
I'm okay w/this thread evolving in many different ways, but can we please make it about Baker and NOT other posters? Demeaning other posters does not make Baker better or worse. Please stick to football and leave the personality crap out of it.
Anyways, towards the end of the previous Baker thread, a poster said something about Baker being fat. I disagreed. I said he looked jacked. He made a comment about too much muscle mass is not a good thing for a qb. I have always thought that QBs, baseball pitchers, shooters in basketball should not be overly muscular. I have been away from the sport for awhile, so perhaps guys like Purp, who are into weight lifting, can provide more info on this, can confirm/debate that claim.
I bring this up because there is a lot of disagreement on Baker's performance from last year to this year. I see folks saying he was good at reading coverages last year and others like me saying he did not.
However, I think we can all agree that he was much more accurate last year than this year. I was watching one of his commercials awhile ago. It is the one where he takes the mini-vac and is cleaning up after a party. Dude is jacked. Dude is thick. I don't see how that is good for accuracy. I am wondering if should back off the weights and instead hire one of the "broom sweepers" [as he calls them] this next off-season?
That could be ... kind of like what people thought with Brady Quinn. It was Baker’s first real offseason, so maybe he has to find the right balance for him to be successful. He may have been worried about “holding up” for the entire season because he felt a bit worn down by week 17 last year.
I think his inaccuracy and unsuredness comes more from his lack of confidence in the offensive changes and the lack of cohesion with OBJ to this point.
It seems like when we get into more of his comfort zone with play calling that he’s more accurate, or at least not as BAD as he seems with the more “hold it and go vertical” type of plays
I disagree w/the " lack of confidence in the offensive changes and the lack of cohesion with OBJ" point, but I think you might be onto something. His issues w/reading the coverage quickly enough might be messing w/him.
I'm not sure what it is, but he hasn't been as accurate this year as last. Too much muscle mass? Confusion? I'm not sure, but I think blaming Freddie is rather weak.
I'm going to approach this from a slightly different way. This isn't a personal insult, but you started this thread and wrote four paragraphs just to once again point out that he didn't work with a QB coach. I know you had to show remarkable restraint to not use the term "one read". You did avoid that one. Now before you get bent out of shape just take it in a lighthearted fashion.
So instead of rehashing all that, let's concede that everyone agrees he's struggling and the reasons are many. My question is do people stand by Baker and have confidence he will improve. Because that's where I think we are at.
I'm in the group that thinks he will right the ship. I think these first six games have been humbling. I think he will put in the work, and I think he's smart enough to know what he needs to do. I don't agree that processing defenses is an innate quality that you either have or you don't. I think he will figure it out.
I put Freddie in the same category as one that will right the ship.
Stand by these guys, cheer your butts off for them, let them grow and develop. Criticize when they deserve it. But this franchise has a culture and psychology that is absolutely rotting in nature. It breeds losing, it turns winners into losers. It's suffocating. And it will only continue if we don't stick with players and coaches, no matter how painful it may be.
I'm okay w/this thread evolving in many different ways, but can we please make it about Baker and NOT other posters?
And what do Eve, Super, and Rish resort to?
Hey refs, if you are not going to delete their posts, please lock the thread. It has zero chance of being productive. It's all about personalities now and has no chance to be about football.
I was referring to Baker's accuracy issues. Can't blame Freddie for that one. But again, I should have never started this thread. I was debating it because I knew there would be attacks from certain folks, but I really think the muscle/accuracy correlation was a good talking point.
Of course, that point has not been discussed at all.
I disagree w/the " lack of confidence in the offensive changes and the lack of cohesion with OBJ" point, but I think you might be onto something. His issues w/reading the coverage quickly enough might be messing w/him.
I'm not sure what it is, but he hasn't been as accurate this year as last. Too much muscle mass? Confusion? I'm not sure, but I think blaming Freddie is rather weak.
Confusion, lack of cohesion with everyone due to lack of time together in pre season, and others not doing their job. Throw in his not being good at reading defenses right now, and you have several reasons why he is playing like he is so far this season.
To my untrained eye, Baker is having a real problem getting the ball in front of receivers or throwing them open. He excelled at it last year. This year it appears he's looking for static targets or throwing behind everyone.
I feel that Baker came out of the gate trying extremely hard to get the Browns to meet some very big expectations. I think he got off to a slow start that has him pressing every game to have that game that will get this train rolling in the right direction.
Baker is forcing too many throws. He has a very strong arm and I think this is a small part of the problem. His confidence and arm talent give him that gunslinger mentality that he can make every throw.
On top of that I believe 4-5 of his picks have went off a receivers hands.
I have not lost any confidence in our QB and believe that he and the team are very close to turning this around.
Something is up with Baker - his accuracy and decision making is not the same as last year. No doubt. I don't think anyone can possibly know what is up and no-one can estimate how badly the play calling is impacting that regression ... but I know if your QB is struggling, then the play calling I have witnessed through 6 games only makes those struggles WORSE not better. Last year when Haley was gone, Freddie made it "easier" to execute and have success. He removed the burden from Baker - and the result was somewhat spectacular ... this year we look as bad as when Haley was calling plays.
I agree with you - you, a poster known to have a strong dislike of Baker as an individual, starting a thread about Baker and thinking it would stay on track .... not going to happen.
I don't think Baker's workout regimen is causing him issues. Imagine if we caught wind that he didn't work out, I'm sure some would use that as the reason why he is struggling. It'll be a neverending battle for some.
Baker is building strength not muscle. There is a difference.
And I don't think he's as inaccurate as some want to believe. Everyone throws errant passes. Some of those are on the quarterback and some of those are on the receivers.
The offense, playcalling, and coaching are for sure a factor. I think it's important that our coaches get Baker going early in the game. He seems to struggle when he feels like he has to be the hero. I also feel the high expectations are a factor. Last year when he came in we were 1-32-1. We were expected to fail. We seem to do better as underdogs. That's his MO.
I also thought we had a great opening drive vs Tennessee. Then he got hurt, a wrist injury of sorts. He hasn't seemed the same since. He was also hurt in the previous game. No one has really mentioned how gritty it was for him to return to the game. That will go a long way with teammates... that's what great leaders do.
We seem hung up on "what's wrong with Baker." We need to look at the things he does well and build off those things. That's what great coaches do.
Not all that hurts the Browns is on Bakers shoulders.
I'm not sure if the number, but for instance, his most recent interception killed us.. It just crushed us at the end of the seattle game. and I don't believe it was his fault....
We've had too many balls hit the hands of our receivers and bounce into a defensive players hands... Too much of that.
I have no idea if it would have made any difference in this last game, but anytime you have Landry, Bechham and Chubb on the same team, you have a chance....
Not all falls on Baker.
Vers, hows that for sticking with the Baker topic?
Yeah, a lot of his passes have either been high or behind the receivers and not out in front of them. Last year, he did a great job of leading his receivers into yards after the catch.
Do you think the extra muscle is an issue?
GM had a good post on that it is a plethora of issues.
I feel that Baker came out of the gate trying extremely hard to get the Browns to meet some very big expectations. I think he got off to a slow start that has him pressing every game to have that game that will get this train rolling in the right direction.
Baker is forcing too many throws. He has a very strong arm and I think this is a small part of the problem. His confidence and arm talent give him that gunslinger mentality that he can make every throw.
On top of that I believe 4-5 of his picks have went off a receivers hands.
I have not lost any confidence in our QB and believe that he and the team are very close to turning this around.
Go Browns!!!!!!
Stop sugar coating this.
Baker is playing at Kizer level, and has regressed when he was supposed to improve in the off-season.
He has 2 of the best receivers in the game, who have made some amazing catches...
Baker strengths are his mental toughness,so lets see if he can get out of the slump and put his act together.
Many things can be done, and Kitchen can help, but lets not forget that its up to Baker to bounce back or be in way into oblivion.
Don't think Dorsey will put up with this much more time....
To my untrained eye, Baker is having a real problem getting the ball in front of receivers or throwing them open. He excelled at it last year. This year it appears he's looking for static targets or throwing behind everyone.
This. And he excelled using different trajectories and velocities. This year he has lost the trust you need to do that on a regular basis. That has resulted in him throwing the ball way too hard. On one hand that is because he's making the decision a split-second too late, on the other it is becoming habit. A habit that has also led to WRs deflecting balls for INTs.
I'll go back to TC once again, I won't look for the quotes, but it was obvious that the offense was a tough install. There were already leaks that Freddie wasn't happy with progress after "package three of eight". No OBJ, Jarvis missing a lot of time, Baker learning his third offense in less than a year. Then once the season starts - no Higgins, no Callaway and no Njoku. The result... a disjointed offense and a gun-shy QB.
With all that chaos and players still not on the same page, we add another package from the file folder "plays that work 2018". Unfortunately that leads to even more wrinkles as OBJ's eyes light up and Freddie (and Baker) feel the pressure to get him more involved.
To my untrained eye, Baker is having a real problem getting the ball in front of receivers or throwing them open. He excelled at it last year. This year it appears he's looking for static targets or throwing behind everyone.
This. And he excelled using different trajectories and velocities. This year he has lost the trust you need to do that on a regular basis. That has resulted in him throwing the ball way too hard. On one hand that is because he's making the decision a split-second too late, on the other it is becoming habit. A habit that has also led to WRs deflecting balls for INTs.
I'll go back to TC once again, I won't look for the quotes, but it was obvious that the offense was a tough install. There were already leaks that Freddie wasn't happy with progress after "package three of eight". No OBJ, Jarvis missing a lot of time, Baker learning his third offense in less than a year. Then once the season starts - no Higgins, no Callaway and no Njoku. The result... a disjointed offense and a gun-shy QB.
With all that chaos and players still not on the same page, we add another package from the file folder "plays that work 2018". Unfortunately that leads to even more wrinkles as OBJ's eyes light up and Freddie (and Baker) feel the pressure to get him more involved.
And how to you explain his inaccuracy?
I think you are over analyzing this, Baker is playing bad at fundamental basic levels..
We are way far from having play books and game plans explain what has happened to Baker... he is just a bad QB right now.
My theory by the way, is that he is not a talented QB but he has the mental fortitude to elevate himself, providing he works in his craft.
When he started believing he was an elite QB and stopped putting on the work, he regressed... He has to go back to fundamentals, practice, watch film, and convince himself that he needs a stable platform to be effective, he does not have the tools to compensate for the lack of work...
Problem is that its just not Baker, most of the team looks unprepared and regressing, and that worries me more.
Also - Baker didn't get fat. Just like Freddie, Baker and our offense, as fans it seems we're grasping at straws. Baker changes his facial hair every 15 minutes. When he has a beard he looks skinny, when he's clean shaven he looks chubby... it's just his face lol. It tricked me as well. Then I saw him pull up his jersey coming out of the tunnel. Same exact abs and midsection. If he put on bad weight - the truth would be in the pudding, no pun intended. If he put on mass, I doubt it would have much to do with how hard he's throwing the ball. He's throwing the ball hard because he feels like he's processing too slow and doesn't have the same trust in his receivers. JMO
Also - Baker didn't get fat. Just like Freddie, Baker and our offense, as fans it seems we're grasping at straws. Baker changes his facial hair every 15 minutes. When he has a beard he looks skinny, when he's clean shaven he looks chubby... it's just his face lol. It tricked me as well. Then I saw him pull up his jersey coming out of the tunnel. Same exact abs and midsection. If he put on bad weight - the truth would be in the pudding, no pun intended. If he put on mass, I doubt it would have much to do with how hard he's throwing the ball. He's throwing the ball hard because he feels like he's processing too slow and doesn't have the same trust in his receivers. JMO
He is the worst QB in the league right now,so in my eyes he is fat and chubby alright.
Once he gets back into a good level, I'll consider the jacked stuff....
To my untrained eye, Baker is having a real problem getting the ball in front of receivers or throwing them open. He excelled at it last year. This year it appears he's looking for static targets or throwing behind everyone.
This. And he excelled using different trajectories and velocities. This year he has lost the trust you need to do that on a regular basis. That has resulted in him throwing the ball way too hard. On one hand that is because he's making the decision a split-second too late, on the other it is becoming habit. A habit that has also led to WRs deflecting balls for INTs.
I'll go back to TC once again, I won't look for the quotes, but it was obvious that the offense was a tough install. There were already leaks that Freddie wasn't happy with progress after "package three of eight". No OBJ, Jarvis missing a lot of time, Baker learning his third offense in less than a year. Then once the season starts - no Higgins, no Callaway and no Njoku. The result... a disjointed offense and a gun-shy QB.
With all that chaos and players still not on the same page, we add another package from the file folder "plays that work 2018". Unfortunately that leads to even more wrinkles as OBJ's eyes light up and Freddie (and Baker) feel the pressure to get him more involved.
And how to you explain his inaccuracy?
I think you are over analyzing this, Baker is playing bad at fundamental basic levels..
We are way far from having play books and game plans explain what has happened to Baker... he is just a bad QB right now.
My theory by the way, is that he is not a talented QB but he has the mental fortitude to elevate himself, providing he works in his craft.
When he started believing he was an elite QB and stopped putting on the work, he regressed... He has to go back to fundamentals, practice, watch film, and convince himself that he needs a stable platform to be effective, he does not have the tools to compensate for the lack of work...
WE'RE ALL over analyzing - it's our job. I'm just mentioning some of the many layers that have led us to where we are. Mine hold the same worthless value as you saying he is fat and got lazy because he found success early. You just said he doesn't have all the tools? C'mon man!
I think Fate did a great job of explaining it. I also think GM did a great job.
I don't like it when some posters make excuse after excuse for him, but I don't think you are being fair, either. We've seen the good Baker and he did look a lot better against Seattle than he did against SF.
I think Fate did a great job of explaining it. I also think GM did a great job.
I don't like it when some posters make excuse after excuse for him, but I don't think you are being fair, either. We've seen the good Baker and he did look a lot better against Seattle than he did against SF.
Btw----------he is NOT fat.
Sorry Vers,but his current playing level, his inaccuracy, when people were raving him from being able to lead the receivers...
He is all over the place this year, even the intermediate throws where he excelled last year.
Its not a minor regression, he went to be one of the best QB's to probably the worst QB in the league, and he has OBJ and Landry....
I don't like it, but I'm willing to give the guy some time, providing people stop with the excuses...Its on Baker to turn this around.
We are starting to ear stuff like trading OBJ, Kareem Hunt being a problem because we have to many weapons... This just to justify Baker...
You lost all credibility on any topic that is Baker by stating that he is playing "at Kizer" level.
I'm starting to think that Braylon was on to something about Browns fans who are also big Buckeye fans...hate on Michigan players or a player that embarrassed the Buckeyes on national TV...no matter that he plays for the Browns now.
There should be ZERO calls to bench Baker and ZERO calls to pick another QB in 2020. Look how long it took us to find a guy who is clearly NOT Kizer and has FQB written all over him.
We've seen Baker set or break rookie QB records. When the O is functioning - basically meaning no stupid penalties - he is still outstanding. He makes throws that have never been seen in a Browns uniform given the combination of strength, power, spin and accuracy. He's played about 20 games now in the 3rd scheme of his career...which...again...consists of about 20 games and only ONE meaningful training camp.
He's pressing...his mechanics sometimes breakdown...he's learning...he's inexperienced...teams have seen film...the entire O has been inconsistent (with the exception of Chubb) but when things are functioning on O, he's absolutely deadly... just like the last half of last year...re-watch the first half of the Seattle game...my goodness.
He can improve...there are ZERO indications that he cannot improve or will not work to improve...this guy is not a flash-in-the-pan...he is a team leader...no question.
The criticisms sometimes thrown at the kid are ridiculous. We've been waiting for this QB for 20 years...for this very kind of guy. Now we have him and people are expecting him to be Aaron Rodgers after 1.25 seasons worth of games...and bashing him when he's not there yet. Crazy.
His stats are Kizer level, but I agree that's a bit extreme.
I think Baker is coming off a pretty decent game to be honest with you. Not perfect, had some bad luck and bad breaks, but I thought most of the time he resembled the guy from last year.
His stats are Kizer level, but I agree that's a bit extreme.
I think Baker is coming off a pretty decent game to be honest with you. Not perfect, had some bad luck and bad breaks, but I thought most of the time he resembled the guy from last year.
I think he's going to be fine.
And he's mentally though... so I'm hopping for that too.
But with 2 of the best receivers in the game, QB has to be a major plus...
4th quarter was ugly , I think Kitchens can help, but helping is one thing taking the blame for poor QB play is another.
The coach needs to help Baker and the team by remembering his number one priority is to win the game. Until his decisions line up with that as his foundation the team will continue to struggle to get wins.
He's too quick to want to display his offense, his play calling, and how smart he is. His explanation for the end of the first half on it's own was an egregious, fireable offense. On its own.
Freddie, your responsibility to the organization, the players, and the fanbase is to win the game. Don't lose sight of that.
I think he is throwing late. He is waiting on the receivers to be open enough. This bye week, if I am BM, i want to look hard at every pick and figure out why, because this is a crazy number of turnovers. Something isn't being addressed or is being looked at too casually IMO. And it is more of the same every week. We can be better.
It's pretty hard to have a good conversation on this topic. So many extremes. He's way better than Kizer and it's hard to imagine how anyone can't see that. On the other hand, it's hard to deny that he is not playing well.
The ESPN Game Day crew, which is hosted by Sam Ponder and has Tedy Bruchi, Matt Hassleback, Rex Ryan, Randy Moss, and Louis Reddick as analysts talked more about Baker prior to Sunday's game than anyone else. A graphic was put on the screen and Baker was last in Interceptions, Completion Percentage, and QBR. I went to a website that showed all the qb stats and he is at--or near--the bottom in almost every category.
I think it would be dumb to give up on him. I also think it would be dumb to think that he doesn't need to fix what ails him. I have some thoughts on how to go about that, but would like to hear from some of you about what you think needs to be done.
*Sorry for misspellings of the names and the clunky sentences.
Im not sure why you would think Baker wasn't working with his receivers... and where are the videos of the 31 other quarterbacks working with their receivers.
It's pretty hard to have a good conversation on this topic. So many extremes. He's way better than Kizer and it's hard to imagine how anyone can't see that. On the other hand, it's hard to deny that he is not playing well.
The ESPN Game Day crew, which is hosted by Sam Ponder and has Tedy Bruchi, Matt Hassleback, Rex Ryan, Randy Moss, and Louis Reddick as analysts talked more about Baker prior to Sunday's game than anyone else. A graphic was put on the screen and Baker was last in Interceptions, Completion Percentage, and QBR. I went to a website that showed all the qb stats and he is at--or near--the bottom in almost every category.
I think it would be dumb to give up on him. I also think it would be dumb to think that he doesn't need to fix what ails him. I have some thoughts on how to go about that, but would like to hear from some of you about what you think needs to be done.
*Sorry for misspellings of the names and the clunky sentences.
It would be dumb to give up on him, I couldn't agree more.
But it would be dumber to keep on insisting and trading the other players just because our QB can't get it.
All in all, I trust Dorsey is going to make the right decisions, which is a big improvement over what we ever had in the recent past here.
Baker mayfield currently leads the league in picks. He has 1 more than freaking Jamies Winston, who I’m convinced is color blind.
His QB rating is dead last in the league. He has one of the worst accuracy percentages in the league. He has one of, if not THE worst, TD-INT ratio in the league at 5TDs to 11 picks.
His yards per game is barely average. Lamar freaking Jackson throws more per game than him, and a ton of people were saying Lamar should change positions cause he can’t throw.
By that logic, baker needs to convert to a kicker.
Right now, it’s not an exaggeration. It’s not hate. It’s the absolute truth.
Baker mayfield is the worst QB in our division. Andy dalton has better stats than baker mayfield, and dalton has been without AJ green since the start of the season, while baker has OBJ and Jarvis to throw to.
Right now, I prefer rookie mayfield over whatever the hell version we have right now.
I still have concerns with Baker. We ran a pretty simple offense last year. I'm not sure how much validity there is to "working half the field" or him excelling as a "one read QB", I'll trust people like Vers if they say it's true. Still, we all know that doesn't mean he's pigeon-holed into that. Even if we thought it was true, it would be too early to tell. Besides, if that was true last year, how could you blame Baker for that if coaching put him in that situation - and it worked?
When we see young QBs put on an even-keeled trajectory to success it is just as much coaching, and scheme, as raw ability. Don't believe me - take a look at Shanny and Jimmy G in SF. We went from a set of plays that could be memorized on a playground, to this elaborate, slow developing offensive scheme that expected Baker to be Aaron Rodgers 2.0... after 12 games! We filled a 10 year highlight reel with incredible QB play in 12 games. There was no reason to think Baker couldn't rise to the next level. IMO, he will, it will just take more time than we want it to.
I don't say this to make excuses for Baker. It IS all on him. He's the leader, he's the one throwing all the balls. He's made terrible decisions and terrible passes this year. He's thrown the ball too hard, he's consistently over-thrown receivers. Back shoulder throws - not back shoulder enough, late passes over the middle - behind receivers. We've also watched drops from HOF type talent, balls ricocheting off hands as if they were gift-wrapped for the opposition. These things happen... When you're 4-2, you can laugh about them over a beer. When you're 2-4, the sky is falling.
But - if you're going hang 100% on Baker, and ignore the rest of the "layers" - you're a fool. Buckle-up guys... this pie-in-the-sky, Superbowl 24 months after 0-16 ain't happening. However, this "below average" QB, surrounded by talent can hang 40 on a dominant defense in two weeks and have us singing a different tune. It could happen, and never in the last 10+ years did you believe it could happen.
That’s the sad truth: Baker is one of the worst QBs in the NFL right now. That doesn’t mean he won’t or can’t improve, but through 6 games he’s been garbage. Kyle Allen’s production and efficiency puts Baker’s to shame.
Whether that is due to coaching, play calling, scheming, etc ... who knows. But Baker has been a terrible disappointment, and we’re 2-4 now.
Just so you know, the reading half the field w/an emphasis on making one quick read didn't come from me. One of the networks did a big segment on Baker before the season. That information came from Freddie/Baker.
Also, remember it's not like he never had to read the entire field or didn't go through his progressions. The key word is "emphasis," because Freddie wanted to simplify things for Baker. As I have said before, that is not all that unusual.
Also, I don't know if were talking about me when you said something about putting all the blame on Baker. I don't think that way at all. There is plenty of blame to go around.
I still think the most interesting conversation we could have is what can be done to help improve Baker's overall game?
The best way to improve his overall game is to scale it back IMO. Never leave him in empty formations, never ask him to make more than 2 reads, stick with the run game and get creative THAT way, don’t take more than a handful of PA shots a game, etc.
I think that we thought he could handle more on his plate when he’s clearly not ready. My advice to the coaches: we have talent around him, so literally treat every game like it’s a rookie’s FIRST start ever and game plan it that way
Or scale it back just a little and keep pushing Baker to do more, to be better.
I say that because some people learn better by doing. What if this pays off somehow? What if the team misses the playoffs, but Baker comes back next year better than ever due to the experience he's gotten this year?
He has shown little glimpses of improvement. His pocket presence last game was much better. You can see when he had a tendency to drift backwards, he would start slightly, catch himself doing it, stop, and climb the pocket. Honestly he did not play that bad on Sunday other than the throw to Landry and the one poster who was at the game and said he missed a wide open OBJ for a TD.
This could just be a very humbling, learn on the fly year for Baker. At some point you don't want to always dumb down the offense. Look at Goff. He's being asked to do more and failing.
All I'm saying is big picture thinking this could pay off.
Baker's arm is straight up electric. To say that Darnold has a better arm is just making stuff up. Baker isn't in the Stafford and Josh Allen category, but he's probably the next category down.
Just so you know, the reading half the field w/an emphasis on making one quick read didn't come from me. One of the networks did a big segment on Baker before the season. That information came from Freddie/Baker.
Also, remember it's not like he never had to read the entire field or didn't go through his progressions. The key word is "emphasis," because Freddie wanted to simplify things for Baker. As I have said before, that is not all that unusual.
Also, I don't know if were talking about me when you said something about putting all the blame on Baker. I don't think that way at all. There is plenty of blame to go around.
I still think the most interesting conversation we could have is what can be done to help improve Baker's overall game?
I know it didn't come from you, I'm just stating that if it's X's and O's, I found that I can trust your opinion to be valid.
And know, you haven't done that, that's why we've talked extensively about scheme.
We've all become very reactionary. It will lead to a lot of blaming - some justified, some not. I'm trying to let each game sink in before I fly off the handle around here, because I do it too. You and I have been at each other's throats because of it. I apologize for my part. I don't want to be like that.
As far as Baker's game. One thing that is becoming very evident to me is that he is much more Brett Favre than Aaron Rodgers. That's going to lead to some heart-break. He can tweak, learn and grow, but I don't think he'll ever lose the "gun-slinger mentality". That's a double edge sword that cuts deep both ways.
Yeah, it's really hard to take what he's saying seriously when he equated Baker playing at a Kizer level.
That said, Baker has looked pretty terrible. I think a good chunk of it can be chalked up to the following...
-Teams trying (and succeeding) to confuse him -New offense and teammates that he needs to get used to -Wrong offense that he can't handle -Still working through tendencies that he needs to break/fix
The book got written early this season on how to fluster Baker. This is simply something that Baker needs to work through and improve, and probably not something that's going to happen this season. It's not a light bulb that's going to magically turn on.
I never thought this offense would come out of the gate clicking. Baker and the offense just need more time together. This issue is compounded by the offensive scheme switch that happened during the offseason, and further again by the slow adaptation back to last year's scheme that I see happening from game to game. This is something that should improve (slowly) as this teams gets more games under its belt.
The offense that they trotted out game 1 wasn't doing Baker any favors. I don't think he's able, this early in his career, to be doing QB calculus just because he showed he was really good at QB addition/subtraction last year. I think that messed with his mojo, making him skittish and unsure, which is breaking down the notsogreat throwing fundamentals he did have. He showed these trends of inaccuracy last year as well, but they came and went. This year, he's much more consistently inaccurate. Last year, folks pointed out that his throwing mechanics were all over the place. I'd hazard a guess that the discomfort stemming from him not fitting well with the offense our coaches want to run greatly exacerbated this issue.
All that said, Baker is still a young QB that was raw when he was drafted. Even if Freddie and Monken had conjured up the perfect offense for him, Baker was still going to struggle somewhat. The frustration some posters have that Baker didn't work on the things that he should have during the offseason resonate with me as well, but what's done is done, and Baker wasn't going to be a finished product anytime this season, regardless. I think Freddie and Monken and Baker need to take a hard look at what can and can't be fixed now (during the bye) as well as this season, and focus on those things while scheming to minimize the impact of stuff they won't be able to fix until the offseason.
Except Rodgers drifts backwards on almost every drop back. He doesn't break right or left usually and will look for an opening to climb the pocket but Rodgers has tons of bad habits that go without criticism because he's a Super Bowl winning QB that will also make the occasional spectacular play. He also knows where to go with the ball, which is probably the most underrated part of playing QB.
I think Baker has a lot tendencies of both him and Favre.
Yeah, I didn't want to disagree w/Fate about that particular point. I think that Baker has a lot of the same traits as guys like Farve, Rodgers, and Stafford. I was thinking about that last night while watching the game.
I'll talk more about it later. I absolutely have to get some damn work done today.
That’s the sad truth: Baker is one of the worst QBs in the NFL right now. That doesn’t mean he won’t or can’t improve, but through 6 games he’s been garbage. Kyle Allen’s production and efficiency puts Baker’s to shame.
Whether that is due to coaching, play calling, scheming, etc ... who knows. But Baker has been a terrible disappointment, and we’re 2-4 now.
but thats the thing. You see what coach Rivera does?
oh, we got Allen playing? feed CMC until they force us to throw the ball.
i dont want to make this a running back thread, so forgive me Vers, but i just want to highlight this:
CMC leads the league in rushing yards 618, rushing TD's with 7, and rushing yards per game at 103.
guess who's literally right behind him? Chubb, with 607 yards, 6 TD's, and 101 yards per game.
this all despite having 13 carries LESS than CMC.
run the damn ball and take pressure off of mayfield. instead, we have a rookie HC acting like he's been the HC for 10 years, calling plays as if we have Farve, instead of a 2nd year QB who is learning a new offensive scheme.
if we give Chubb the ball once we're up 20-6 non stop, we have a much different conversation at 3-3 cause we beat seattle.
but instead? we decide to throw the ball as if we're the ones down 20-6 before half.
i absolutely refuse to believe Baker peaked in college or his 1st year in the league. there's just no way this is the real mayfield.
and i truly think one of the BIGGEST problems we have right now when it comes to baker mayfield isn't mayfield himself; its the coaching he's receiving.
His mechanics are waaayyy off. he did better against seattle, but he's still reading the field a bit slow, and he still has a tendency to throw off his back foot and such with these fade aways.
why? because i firmly believe the coaching he got as a QB in oklahoma was better than the coaching he's currently getting at the NFL level. i really do believe right now we have an inferior QB's coach and OC compared to Lincoln Riley, and its showing on the field right now.
Just asking ....... Is it possible that Baker does not trust a large portion of his receiving corp to be in the right place at the right time?
Last year we had Njoku, and Duke, and Landry, and Higgins ...... with Callaway's well know issues in the 1st half, at least, of the season. We also had Fells and Perriman, who became solid parts of the passing game.
6 of those guys have been missing this season. Njoku and Higgins have been hurt, Duke was traded, Callaway was suspended, Fells was cut, and Perriman left as a free agent. So most of his most trusted receivers from last year weren't here for most of the season. We then also installed a completely new offense.
Last year it appeared that we had an offense based on quick throws. (after Freddie took over) We also ran a ton of max protections. This year it sure looks like we are going deep/short, where last year we appeared to have a lot of short 1st reads.
So basically, everything has changed .... and I think that Baker has been swamped, playing behind a so-so OL, with a bunch of players he doesn't have chemistry on the field with. The scheme does not appear to be one that allows the OL to be successful.
I think that Baker has also been pressing ... wanting to live up to all of his preseason press. He has not been nearly as accurate as he was last year.
I think that a ton of factors go into our difficulties, and there is a lot of blame to go around so far this season ..... and they are all visible in any game we want to look at.
It's not just possible - "we hold these truths to be self-evident". It's amplified by indecision and a comfort level that is drastically different. We're peeling away layers of an onion that reveal more and more reasons for what we're seeing. It's still easy to look at Baker and place blame at his feet for why the onion stinks. It's inevitable and frankly, it's not all that unfair.
The synergy between a QB and his OLine cannot be understated. They work in unison to make each appear great, adequate or like "crap". Some times one or the other getting more or less credit than what is due for their part in the results.
As far as all the personnel changes. Yes - 100%, this has a huge bearing on the poor play by Baker.
However, I think we can all agree that he was much more accurate last year than this year. I was watching one of his commercials awhile ago. It is the one where he takes the mini-vac and is cleaning up after a party. Dude is jacked. Dude is thick. I don't see how that is good for accuracy. I am wondering if should back off the weights and instead hire one of the "broom sweepers" [as he calls them] this next off-season?
Thoughts?
Yes. Next offseason conditioning for Baker should be all about rehabbing anything that hurts and maintenance and flexibility. The bulk of his offseason should be about the mental aspect of the position and mechanics... and timing with his WRs every chance he gets.
From what I understand, his mechanics are good when he has all kinds of time and can throw in rhythm.. when he rushes at all, or when he's moving/shifting in the pocket, he sees a target and his mind is saying throw and his body, feet, legs, aren't in position yet. They are one step behind his brain. This is something that requires a tremendous amount of work to make it second nature and to make it happen in real time, under pressure.
As an analogy, it's kind of like Steph Curry's jump shot. There are probably a lot of people in the NBA who can shoot similar numbers to Steph from 3 if left unguarded or in practice.. what makes Steph so special is that his fraction of a second catch and shoot form is identical to his have all day to set up and think form... that doesn't just happen... takes hours and hours of work.
exactly ... what gives us the best chance to win the game? It certainly isn’t going hurry up with the score 20-6 and just over 2 minutes to go against the best QB in the league right now
I'm not going to concede that Baker's issues are the play calling. But let's presume that it is for a moment. I guess I would ask what you would do that is an actual solution?
People seem to act as though you can just keep doing what we did last year. Problem is you can't. Last year Baker was reading one side of the field. When he got any pressure, he rolled right and found an outlet. Let's face it, I'm no expert on football. I know some about the game and basic concepts, but that's far from being an expert.
But what I stated above in 100% accurate. We saw Baker doing the exact same thing earlier this season. Every time he received any pressure, he was rolling right looking for that outlet. Guess what? There was nothing there open on that right side. Why? Because after having film on him last year, every team in the NFL had that go to move down pat.
They knew exactly what he would do. That if they could get any pressure on him, he would roll out right and look for that open WR. So what did they do? They stopped it. They forced Baker to do something different. Something he wasn't comfortable with. Any time you see a tendency from an NFL QB, the DC of your opponent will try to exploit that tendency. And that's exactly what we've seen.
This really isn't complicated. Freddie had to expand the offense and create new schemes. He had to force Baker out of his comfort zone because every DC in the NFL knew exactly what that comfort zone is. They knew what he did best and took that away from him.
Now it can be said and I would agree that I don't like all of the 11 man O. I think we need help blocking up front. There have been plays called at certain points of the game that I question as well. Clock management hasn't been consistent.
But the fact is Baker has to adjust to expanding what he does well. You can't keep rolling out to the right and expect NFL DC's not to stop that. You can't expect long term success of an NFL QB without them being able to quickly go through their reads and read D's when they make last second changes pre snap.
There are some positive thoughts to consider in all of this. Freddie is a first time HC. As such there will be some growing pains. Baker has never been asked to go through progressions like he will have to do in the NFL. There will be growing pains.
Trying to lay all of the blame in either direction here is wrong, fruitless and counter productive. It's a culmination of things that simply must be worked through.
I wasn't as optimistic heading into this season as many on here were. While there are exceptions to the rule, for the most part an entire new coaching staff combined with a very young QB who has to learn progressions and expand on his game are stumbling blocks to instant success.
Even I predicted 10 wins but that was me, being a fan and being overly optimistic. It was more "my highest hope" than anything grounded in reality.
All of the ingredients were there for the perfect storm. But some didn't understand it and are now looking for someone to blame.
First off he has the arm. There is not a throw on a field that he can not make. Can he throw it as far as Mahomes and Allen probably not.
I have no concern about his arm strength at all.
His stats are there in black on white. There is no denying the numbers.
IMO. I see a young quarterback just starting what I believe will be a long career. Playing quarterback in the NFL is no easy task. Most quarterbacks coming into the NFL experience inconsistency with plenty of ups and downs.
When you become predictable in the NFL defenses will adjust and make life hard.
Baker has fallen into some predictable patterns. Defenses are anticipating those patterns and looking for them. He has been bailing from the pocket and drifting right. The defenses are flooding the area right and taking away what once had been completions. He still has made some of those throws. The pass to Odell against the Hawks was right there with a great catch by Odell.
Another problem I have seen has been head and eyes. He is looking first where he wants to throw. Sometimes you get away with that. The guy is open and the throw is made in rhythm. Other times his eyes are getting read and the coverage is tight. At times he forces the ball into that coverage. At times he gets away with it. Other times he gets picked.
The offense has been unsettled. Part of it is newness of the staff and players. I don't see a consistent approach to the offense. Meaning this is what we do well. And we will do it no matter because that is our playing personality.
Offensive execution is based upon trust. Trusting that the protection will hold. Trusting that the receiver will run the route correctly. This is not a "see open then throw league." It is anticipate open. Trusting your receiver will be where he should be and be there on time.
That is not something that just happens right off the bat. Trust is developed.
Quarterbacking is a constant learning process. Experience is a cold process. You pay for mistakes. The harder you work. The more you prepare. The better your chances for success.
As far as the questions regarding pre and post snap reads. I have seen him go through progressions. Make the correct read and make the throw. Consistency has not always been the case.
I could be wrong but I believe Baker has what it takes.
He has the skill set required. He has shown throughout his playing career that he is a hard worker. He is passionate about the game. He is a driven person. I believe experience, continuity in coaching and offensive scheme will go a long way in his development.
The rest. Frankly, I don't get hung up on social media. Handshakes, back and forth with people like Cowherd. He said this. Target on his back. This professional football. There is plenty of motivation. Like keeping your job. Brady has a target on him and so do all the others. Don't care. Not everyone is Peyton. He is our quarterback and so far I support him.
Future and what he needs to do. Baker is a bright guy. We are not talking Brandon Weeden or Derek Anderson. Baker is highly motivated. He takes criticism and uses it as fuel. That is him. He will do the work. Right now he getting a big helping of humble pie. And I think it will help in his development.
I expect improvement over the course of this season. At the same time I accept there will still be hiccups.
Until I see something different I support the guy and expect good things to happen in the near future.
I wonder how many QBs would not want to play w/the offensive talent that the Browns have?
11 Personnel is run more often than any other personnel package in the league. So, it's kinda hard to blame his problems on Freddie.
Also, Chubb has the second most carries in the entire league, so it's probably unfair to say we don't use him enough.
I agree that there are multiple aspects to our problems and Baker's performance, but he is having problems that are all his own and they seem to get overlooked when we are discussing him.
I do think he played better against Seattle. He was more decisive, he didn't always bail to the right, he showed a ton of toughness, and displayed that great arm of his.
He's 2nd in the league in Rushing Yards - only 11 yards behind Christian McCaffrey with a better average per attempt than McCaffrey.
I'd say that Chubb is getting it done just fine
thanks, I knew he was up there. Don’t know what his overall PFF score is or whatever, but he should have even more yards per game IMO. (Not of his own doing either)
I'm okay w/this thread evolving in many different ways, but can we please make it about Baker and NOT other posters?
And what do Eve, Super, and Rish resort to?
Hey refs, if you are not going to delete their posts, please lock the thread. It has zero chance of being productive. It's all about personalities now and has no chance to be about football.
As far as your previous post. I think it's hard to judge intent on a message board. There's always a tug of war, people defending, people pointing fingers. If anyone is truly overlooking Baker's shortcomings, they're just a fan-boy-Baker-homer. He has looked terrible at times. WE (as an organization) were not ready for a league that has studied his strengths and weaknesses - with an entire off-season to do so. We expected him to graduate to the next level before he did his homework. The fact that he didn't, or is slow to do so, isn't all on him, because of all the changes... I think we can all agree on that. But that doesn't come across here because we're too busy picking sides. If we were all sitting at a round table with a beer in front of us, watching a game - I think many people would come-off a lot different on the subject.
Looking at the rates of 11 personnel and then blaming things on coaching does sound like a cop-out and an excuse for Baker. To me, it is just one in a list of things that changed dramatically for a second year QB. That's why we have to be patient, in the end we have no choice anyway. A want to see a correction from game to game, an end to habitual issues, such as constantly rolling right, over-throwing, throwing with too much velocity, etc... If we're fair, I think we are seeing that, just not as quickly as we would like. That said, I never blame coaching for a specific player's performance.
On the "personnel" subject... You craft your scheme around your talent. I would love to see specific team averages rather than just league averages. San Francisco doesn't fit into that mold because they play to their strengths. And let's be honest, no team needs to fit into that mold. Being the same as everyone else gets you nowhere. It's not all about "the package" on the surface. It's about all the nuances that get players to mesh within that package. It's about trust, repetition, learning from mistakes and paring things down that don't fit our players strengths. It will take time. Baker is the one that determines the largest span of that timetable. This year (so far) he has been painfully slow to learn and adjust. Truth be told though - the whole team has.
There have been a couple times this year that I thought "maybe this isn't the guy". Then he makes a plus-plus throw, leads a mistake free drive, looks like a real leader. Then that turns into "what are you thinking, he has all the tools and the drive to get it done". It would be foolish to think I wouldn't trade him for a few other QBs in the league, but when I remind myself that I'm watching a second-year QB, that list is pretty short.
But yes, no doubt. Baker chose to be a QB in the NFL, not Browns fans. He works for us now, and while we have great expectations, we will accept nothing less than constant improvement - and we shouldn't.
It's pretty hard to have a good conversation on this topic. So many extremes. He's way better than Kizer and it's hard to imagine how anyone can't see that. On the other hand, it's hard to deny that he is not playing well.
Maybe it's impossible to have decent conversation because you say you want people to voice their opinions and then you get upset about it, ask mods to lock it down or you insult the posters by saying that you can't have proper conversations. You have a direction in your mind how you want it to go and if anybody offers different perspective you shout them down. So, yeah...it's impossible to debate it when in truth you don't want to debate it or you want to move the conversation into a direction that you feel it should go rather than letting it play out.
Allow conversations and multiple perspectives to weigh in and discussion to organically flow. Otherwise...Why even start these threads then?
Baker will be fine his accuracy is a tad off from last season but the ball is usually where it can be caught ... Ozzie Newsome said "If you can touch it you should catch it ...
Also, Chubb has the second most carries in the entire league, so it's probably unfair to say we don't use him enough. I don't think its we are not running Chubb enough. I think its WHEN we are running Chubb.
End of half, up 20-6 we are still throwing the ball.
I agree w/you almost 100 percent on those two points.
Oh........one edit. I think the score was 20 to 12 at that time. But still, we should have ran him and used the clock so Seattle would have less time once they got the ball back. I still can't believe Freddie said he wanted to go 2 to 1 in possessions. But, that's for another thread, I guess. I kinda want to get back to what Baker can do to improve. We have all talked about what others can do, but what can Baker do?
I do think that there have been people who are saying we don't run him enough. I pointed out that he was in second in attempts and yards for RBs because I was just trying to keep things factual. But yes, I was very angry when we did not run him down by the goal line in the first half.
He played better, but I don't think his accuracy was very good for the most part. The guys should have certainly caught a lot of those passes, but almost all of them were behind the receivers that were running full speed. You have guys running across the middle and you throw it behind them........well....you played football and you know what usually occurs.
I see VD had to get in his latest dose of Baker Hate, although he is veiling it better now. Bravo.
I think the problem is pretty simple. It started with the OC expecting that superior skill position talent would translate to being able to call a slow developing pass heavy offense. It failed with a crappy oline and no chemistry because of new players. Couple that will massive penalties early in the year that created obvious passing downs. That created situations where Baker tried to play hero ball and started to lose all confidence in his oline, running out of the position. All that is creating the inaccuracy and him to lose confidence.
As Freddy calls better games Baker's play is improving, he is also learning to play in collapsing pockets, a skill only the best have. Anyone that cant see Baker is a franchise QB is blind. By some people's logic they would have cut manning after his first two seasons.
Stop the chicken little stuff, Baker will be fine in the long run.
This season as you point out, there were a lot of passes that should have been caught, several that have turned into extremely costly interceptions.
But yes, his accuracy is off this year. I think that there are a couple issues contributing. 2 are mental. 1, he doesn't look like he knows this offense as well as he did last year. Is that related to changes in the offense or the coaches asking more from him or something? I don't know. He just looks unsure a lot of times. 2, he has looked skittish manifest by leaving the pocket so quickly and many times unnecessarily. Is that related to the above? Again, I don't know but this has gotten noticeably better.
The other thing I noticed, and I haven't compared film to last year but from watching and comparing to my memory, I think his mechanics are different. His elbow seems lower. When this happens it results in a higher throw. And his misses tend to be (in my informal appraisal) from the ball sailing high. A couple potential reasons for this could be that he bulked up too much and is too tight in the shoulder, did the coaching staff try to change some of his mechanics and now he is stuck in the middle somewhere, or possibly some injury that we don't know about - if he has a sore elbow he would drop it to take some of the strain off of it. Again i don't know if it is any of these but these are my thoughts
baker has issues but.....last week callaway drops a td pass. this week te drops his second td of the day...along with obj drops...its not like baker is the best , but it doesnt help to have 10 drops a game
I see VD had to get in his latest dose of Baker Hate, although he is veiling it better now. Bravo.
I think the problem is pretty simple. It started with the OC expecting that superior skill position talent would translate to being able to call a slow developing pass heavy offense. It failed with a crappy oline and no chemistry because of new players. Couple that will massive penalties early in the year that created obvious passing downs. That created situations where Baker tried to play hero ball and started to lose all confidence in his oline, running out of the position. All that is creating the inaccuracy and him to lose confidence.
As Freddy calls better games Baker's play is improving, he is also learning to play in collapsing pockets, a skill only the best have. Anyone that cant see Baker is a franchise QB is blind. By some people's logic they would have cut manning after his first two seasons.
Stop the chicken little stuff, Baker will be fine in the long run.
OL is playing great, Baker is holding to the ball to much, and having decisions problems.
Our receivers have bailed Baker much more times than the drops, he is/was throwing to 2x and 3x coverage.
Yes we changed game play that now requires more time to develop. Baker is not good scrambling and buying time, he's a very efficient QB in the intermediate game, quick throws, easy completions. He's not a vertical passer, he needs high 60% 70% completions to be efficient and move the chains.
I don't dislike Baker, but he has to step up his game fast... he has 2 of the best receivers in the game, a good OL a great RB.... if he can't do it fast we should be looking some place else.
And,IMHO, there is no such thing has a franchise QB anymore, either you produce or you don't. Improvement is key in the QB position, no use on beating a dead horse, teams are starting to get it with Rosen, Mariota, Jameis even Cam...
putting aside my personal thoughts on Mayfield for another thread so I don't derail yours.
I think having too much muscle is detrimental to a QB. I don't know if you have read Tom Brady's book the TB12 Method, but Brady does not lift weights. He used resistance band training and works on making his muscle more flexible and pliable this is pretty much his forumla for being able to perform at such a high level for so long. If you look at Brady, he isn't jacked at all he is just a slim trim fit guy with no real extra bulk.
It could be a possibility that Mayfield's added muscle weight has effected him negatively. I think if Mayfield worked on methods similiar to Brady, dropped about 15 pounds, and worked on being more flexible and pliable it would be an overall plus to his game as a QB and he would be far less susceptible to injury. Just my thoughts.
Next, Brady starts a 40-minute workout with resistance bands. He doesn’t use weights because the focus is on speed, agility and core stability, and heavy weights create short, tear prone muscle fibers built for quick bursts, according to Guerrero. “You can’t do weighted squats one day and then the next expect to be fast and nimble in the other direction,” he told Men’s Journal.
Also Brady does "Brain Exercises", I think is something that could really help Baker Mayfield!
Quote:
Brady also spends 15 minutes every day doing online brain exercises by Posit Science BrainHQ (like Hawk Eye, for “visual precision,” which quickly flashes birds on the screen, challenging the viewer to spot the one that is different from the rest). In his book, “The TB12 Method,” Brady said the exercises help him stay sharp on and off the field.
An offseason of this would certainly help him speed up his recognition of stuff!
Good point ... Baker has to be as proactive as possible in calling experts, veteran players, other QB coaches, etc. I have no idea what type of work he puts into his craft, but I’m sure he can do things beyond or differently that what he has been
A primary cause of high passes is overstriding. I remember having to dial back my excitement at the sight of a wide-open receiver.
This is true. Also, I think some of his throws that behind receivers are either due to him throwing off his back foot or opening the lead foot too far. That changes your arm angle and effects accuracy.
The mechanics are one of the things I have been wanting to talk about on this thread. He actually has outstanding mechanics at times. However, they can get sloppy under pressure and/or if he has faced some pressure earlier in the games.
I know he has scoffed at the idea of working w/a QB coach [or broom sweeper as he calls them] in the off-season, but if I was advising him, I would strongly encourage him to hire a QB coach and work w/on mechanics after this season is over.
I have some more ideas on what he can do during the off-season, but this is a start.
I think this is a good point. I would encourage Baker to lay off the upper body weight lifting. I think it's okay if he continues the lower body lifting, but resistance training is much better for the upper body when you are playing quarterback, pitcher in baseball, or an outside shooter in basketball. I would also include a lot of flexibility drills and exercises.
That video illustrates a couple of things regarding Baker and the Browns. It ties into something that Fate brought up earlier.
One thing that is true is that there have been too many drops. No doubt about that. Also, some of his pics were tipped by our receivers. No doubt about that.
However, watch the video and also think about how many times Baker makes one read and throws into tight coverage. That is the gunslinger thing that Fate brought up. When you force the ball into tight coverage, you are going to have some sensational plays and you are also going to endure drops and interceptions.
I will get into what Baker can do this off-season to work on that. Hopefully, another poster or two will think about it and talk about it before I do.
Yeah, his lack of progression (at least quickly enough) is alarming right now and it’s killing us. I’ll be the first to admit: Baker has been bad. He’s not progressed at all. Our offense is handcuffed because of it as well IMO. We can blame poor coaching (which there has been), but the QB is killing the offense too
However, watch the video and also think about how many times Baker makes one read and throws into tight coverage. That is the gunslinger thing that Fate brought up. When you force the ball into tight coverage, you are going to have some sensational plays and you are also going to endure drops and interceptions.
I intend to be very careful here about the "one read" debate because as others have noted, we don't know what was the primary read pre-snap or post-snap...but...
Every one of those apparent "one read" throws in that video were good-to-great balls, delivered very quickly and all should have been caught with the possible exception of the last one where the defender made a good play...but only one ball was caught. Higgins or Landry probably catch the other two dropped balls.
So...two things. Baker has a lot of guts and confidence. He can make those throws and he knows it...maybe knows it a little too well. Gunslinger type as you and others have said...but with much better accuracy (usually) than what I think of when I hear or say Gunslinger.
One read. I've read a lot about this possible issue around the interwebs. I appreciate that you have taken the sting/stigma out of your claims of Baker having a one-read "issue" by stating that it isn't necessarily a heavy criticism as much as a thing that inexperience QBs often deal with. Assuming I am correctly absorbing your intent,
Anyway...further confusing the "one read" debate in my own mind is the above, one-read throws that were dropped and should have been caught. There was no need to go to the next read due to the placement and timing of the throws. Also, where was the second read and how much more time is needed to get to that second read? Rhetorical, of course. But that question is almost unanswerable without knowing the playcall.
My recollection is that not many inexperienced QBs get to the "next" read quickly unless a play has broken down...which in my own mind removes THAT particular play from having been given the "next" read...if that makes any sense...it happened because of the scramble drill and not necessarily some good awareness of post-snap reads.
FWIW, Baldy and Burns make terrific video and picture commentary...absolutely terrific.
The team is 2-4. The expectations were basically that we would dominate teams.
A healthy perspective of history is important to keep in mind.
Coming from the Baker class is Rosen. A player most felt including myself was the most ready guy for the NFL. Pure passer who played college ball in a pro set offense. Smart guy with a great arm.
His "transition" has been difficult. If you look at the first couple years of HOF quarterbacks many struggled early in there careers.
Defenses and DC get paid as well. They are going to scout you and look for tendencies. No different than baseball scouting hitters and pitchers. What "tells" can they pick up? It is a constant adjustment of going back over game film and trying to figure out what is right or wrong.
Each offensive play is designed to score a touchdown if everyone does their job. Of course not every play is a touchdown. Defenses are trying hard to eat your lunch. Practice is important. However, it is not the same as when a defense is stacked up against you in a game.
Receivers get knocked off course. Blocks fail. Chaos is happening in split seconds. You don't often have the time in the pocket to see all, decide and complete a play.
A lot is happening feet, eyes, body position, space all have to work in coordination.
The team has to take ownership. That starts with Freddie and works down to #53.
Baker has his work cut out for him. He has develop his game. He has to study how defenses are playing him. Showing different looks. Disguising coverages, playing combinations of coverage. This stuff "only" comes through game experience. Seeing it. Studying it. Working on how to recognize it early and countering.
The panic to rush to judgement and play the blame game only comes from outside. I think the players know what Baker is capable of. And I think they support him and believe in him.
If they start to lose confidence in Baker then it is time to panic.
Baker is building strength not muscle. Once again, there's a difference.
Baker is not lifting weights. He's using resistance bands, kettlebells, and battle ropes. These exercises are for increased strength not necessarily increased muscle. Carry on.
Baker is coached to be aggressive, so his interceptions shouldn't be anything unexpected.
Also, this is a young offense with new faces. Baker's "inaccuracies" aren't necessary on Baker as some are trying to pin on his mechanics. Sure he has the occasional errant throw. All quarterbacks do. It may appear that Baker is throwing behind his receivers which isn't necessarily the case. The receivers and Baker aren't on the same page. A good example of this is the interception off the finger tips of Hilliard. That's obviously more on Hilliard than Baker.
We will get better. I'm hoping soon but the time table is unknown.
To be fair, I have NO IDEA what Baker does to strengthen, train, study, etc ... even if I saw clips on social media, that doesn’t tell the whole story. So I don’t even know if I can have an opinion
Baker is coached to be aggressive, so his interceptions shouldn't be anything unexpected.
Also, this is a young offense with new faces. Baker's "inaccuracies" aren't necessary on Baker as some are trying to pin on his mechanics. Sure he has the occasional errant throw. All quarterbacks do. It may appear that Baker is throwing behind his receivers which isn't necessarily the case. The receivers and Baker aren't on the same page. A good example of this is the interception off the finger tips of Hilliard. That's obviously more on Hilliard than Baker.
We will get better. I'm hoping soon but the time table is unknown.
Yes they are unexpected, if we were expecting them we should have kept Kizer...
Occasional errant throw... we are talking about Baker, right?
Baker's regression is massive, specially considering he should have improved during off season, that is the most worrying.
And yes Kitchens can help, but don't pin Baker's bad play on Kitchens, the guy is throwing to 2 of the best receivers in the league and has a monster RB by his side...
And another note, I don't see how you can get Chubby with strength training... the guy is bloated...
But, that's for another thread, I guess. I kinda want to get back to what Baker can do to improve. We have all talked about what others can do, but what can Baker do?
Keep preparing mentally, "knowing the playbook" is one thing but knowing it instinctively is another.. If you asked me to name the 50 state capitals, I could get most of them right but I would have to think about it.. he doesn't have time to think about it. And that only comes with repetition..
He needs to work on his mechanics when rushed or under pressure too and that's very hard to do in-season.. he can do some of it but this needs to be a major focus of his off-season routine..
To your last point... I don't think he's chubby... but since you do, that's precisely what I'm saying. He's not building muscle mass. That's my point. There isn't any article, pictures, videos anywhere that says he building all this muscle mass. Not sure where it even came from...
As to your first point. A more aggressive QB is likely to throw more INTs than a conservative QB (ala Kessler). This is how Freddie wants Baker to play. Interceptions are going to happen. I would have focused more on ball security and keep the turnovers down because we've lost a handful of games due to turnovers since Baker has taken over as QB.
No one is blaming anyone for his INTs. There are a lot of factors involved. Bakers himself, coaching, receivers not being on the same page... It's a team game and that's pretty clear right now.
A primary cause of high passes is overstriding. I remember having to dial back my excitement at the sight of a wide-open receiver.
I would credit that too his lack of height and trying to drive it over the line? I’m not sure, just guessing
No, it’s the wide open receiver in a wide open lane that you’re driving to drive ball to that usually results in the overthrow. Strange, I know. And I haven’t seen any indication of Baker trying to throw “over” anyone either. Blocked throws are usually a result of a lucky lineman getting his hand in the right place at the right time. Sam Bradford is 6’4” and drove me nuts with all his blocked throws.
What I was hoping to see from Baker in the Seattle game was improvement. And I did see some of that. His accuracy is still a bit off from what we saw last season, but improvement comes over time.
As I said in an earlier post, people act like Baker can just be a one read QB and concentrate on the right side of the field like he was doing last year. That's simply not true. All 31 of the other DC's in the league had that film going into this season and knows that he throws and scrambles to the right. They took that away from him.
There was no choice but to expand the playbook and work on him going through his progressions and throwing left some when pressured. No choice. When other teams get some film on you, they will certainly take away what is obviously comfortable for your QB and force him to do things he doesn't seem comfortable doing.
From what I saw, he went right back to his old tendency of rolling right every time he even "perceived" any pressure. Only this year, the opposing D's had those WR's and outlets on the right side of the field covered. Why? Because they knew that was his go to.
So what I was seeing was Baker was still rolling right far too much. After his initial drop he was skittishly continuing to drift back in the pocket right into the lanes where the OL would be steering defenders behind him. A lot of the issues were straight laying on his own shoulders. Many refused to admit that. They tried blaming everyone from the OL to the HC for it.
But in the Seattle game those things didn't happen. He wasn't rolling right in panic. He didn't seem so confused that he abandoned the pocket early. He wasn't drifting back in the pocket. Instead, he was stepping up in the pocket. He seemed more trusting of the players around him to do their jobs.
These are the first signs that he's starting to become more comfortable with the expanded play book. Something that HAD to be done for the reasons I posted above. Slowly this expanded play book is becoming more natural to him. That's an obvious thing to see from my perspective.
Don't get me wrong, his accuracy is still not to the same level we saw last year in the second half of the season. His comfort level isn't all the way there yet. But these are steps in the right direction. They are indicators that he is progressing in the right direction.
That's all I was looking for to begin with. Positive signs that "he gets it". And I'm beginning to see those signs. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess. But I call it the way I see it. I won't hesitate to call out the excuse makers when he's playing like crap. And I'll be happy to say I see improvements when they are there.
In this case I see some positive signs. As a Browns fan I'm happy to see it and hope that improvement builds from here.
The problem is obvious!! Baker has a “noodle arm”. lol
Well,I would say I'm being proved right... Just saying...
Its obvious that Baker does not have elite arm talent, and comparing to Mahomes and others... noodle arm isn't probably that far-fetched.
Baker needs a good platform to be effective,that is obvious. Still I don't think that's even the problem right now.
Even Stevie Wonder can see that Baker has a strong arm.
Yeah, if anything his problem is throwing the ball too hard causing some of those dropped passes/deflections.
Yep, Baker does throw the shorter passes sometimes way harder than needed and often slightly behind his WR's, but those same WR's, who manage to get both hands on the ball, should make the catch.
As far as Baker's arm strength, I'm not worried about that, his arm is plenty good enough to win with. The one issue that bothers me is all the batted balls, not much can be done about his height though.
7 of Baker's 11 interceptions have gone off of his wide receivers' hands. Those INTs are mostly bad luck or WR error. Browns are 3-3 or 4-2 without that.
The hand-wringing over Baker by people who seem to be regurgitating the same things I hear from sports jocks and talking heads is pretty mind-boggling. Baker didn't go from a walk-on who was one of the most accurate and efficient QBs in CFB history who then tested off the charts on the whiteboard to a one-read, inaccurate scrub who refuses to work with self described QB gurus out of hubris and laziness.
I just hope Baker doesn't share your attitude and is willing to work w/a QB coach and on the mental part of the game this upcoming off-season. I actually hope is becomes somewhat humbled and decides to do everything in his power to improve himself instead of blaming others like you are doing.
We can say that passes went off of receivers hands for interceptions and put all the blame on the receiver. But, take that pass to Landry at the end of the first half. Did Landry touch it. I think he did. But, so did the defender and the pass was high and behind Landry. Blaming Landry for that pick is nonsense.
I'm going to be blunt. I get the feeling that a lot of folks get upset if Baker is questioned, but have no problem w/bashing everyone else. That is unfair. It is also not wise. The players and coaches are in-tune w/such messages. That is not good for a locker room. Hell, it's not good for Baker. I don't see him blaming others.
This team has a multitude of areas where it can get better. However, this is a Baker thread and he can get better, too. I have already touched on the mechanics issues he can work on in the off-season. I will get to the mental part soon.
7 of Baker's 11 interceptions have gone off of his wide receivers' hands. Those INTs are mostly bad luck or WR error. Browns are 3-3 or 4-2 without that.
11 out 11 interceptions were thrown by Baker.
the question should be... what could he have done better to no have 7 out off 11 passes go off the hands of his WR's. our WR's hands are not Dennis Dropcutt's hands. We have very sure-handed WR's on our team.
I am concerned about Baker's accuracy, his happy feet and throwing with poor mechanics compared to last year.
The interceptions? A by product of the accuracy issues to be sure. But I don't look at the interceptions as the issue - the issue is accuracy. . . . I don't look at his number of interceptions and say the problem is worse of better than it is. If Baker had 5 interceptions this year instead of 11 - we are in the same place. Arguing over whose fault they are misses the point.
1. If the balls that hit hands were not intercepted ... there would STILL be a problem.
2. Baker is aggressive and has been throwing balls aggressively in catch up mode in a couple games. 3 in the very first game of the season. Other QB's worried about their stats might have not thrown those balls ... I'll take that willingness Baker has to have crappy stats while trying to win as a positive .... (I'll take the HC trying to score twice in a minute and a half at the end of a half where we are winning as a negative that will probably impact Baker's int's)
2. Baker is aggressive and has been throwing balls aggressively in catch up mode in a couple games. 3 in the very first game of the season. Other QB's worried about their stats might have not thrown those balls ... I'll take that willingness Baker has to have crappy stats while trying to win as a positive .... (I'll take the HC trying to score twice in a minute and a half at the end of a half where we are winning as a negative that will probably impact Baker's int's)
I didn't think of that while posting, but very good call! I think the feet and tendency to leave the pocket are from a justifiable lack of faith in his line.
Some people can't stand how badly they missed on Baker and are going to be pulling for him to fail, trying to convince others of deficiencies that don't exist. The kind of people who want to fight him without having ever met him, I assume.
Speaking of which...
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I just hope Baker doesn't share your attitude and is willing to work w/a QB coach and on the mental part of the game this upcoming off-season. I actually hope is becomes somewhat humbled and decides to do everything in his power to improve himself instead of blaming others like you are doing.
Thank you, that's mighty kind! Gotta say, as long as I've been lurking, I've come close to registering a few times after reading your posts, hahaha. You finally got me with this thread! I'll probably mostly go back to lurking, tbh. Don't wanna disrupt the ecosystem here.
Watching Baker's 11 interceptions, I'm not sure many were due to inaccurate throws. Maybe 2?
A handful were thrown into tight coverage and tipped. One was thrown off the back foot the final play of the game. I think a couple were put where he thought they needed to be, but didn't see the defender. The 49ers game he was being hit on one throw. The other two throws were mistakes by the receiver. Callaway should have caught the ball and Hilliard was in the wrong spot.
Do I think he had a few errant passes? For sure. There are some who think he's had happy feet and mechanical issues prior to us drafting him. I do not believe that's an issue here.
Reading this thread, some would have you believe that Baker is playing in the worst situation in the league. His coach can't scheme. His receivers are drop-happy. His OL stinks. His receivers can't run good routes.
I wonder how many other NFL QBs would not want to play w/the talent that Baker has at his disposal? We went from saying we had the most talent in the league to being trash.
I think some folks are putting one player above the team.
Alright, I didn't get too many responses on what Baker can do to fix some of what ails him. I'll post my thoughts about what Baker can do to help Baker, rather than what everyone else can do.
I talked about the mechanical things earlier. I do think he generally has good mechanics, but he has a tendency to open his lead foot too wide and that hurts accuracy. He might overstride at times. And he throws off of his back foot. I do think working w/a qb coach in the off-season will help there.
The other part of his game that I would like to see him work on is the mental part of the game. I don't think Baker is ever going to be R. Wilson, Mahomes, or Watson. He isn't that kind of athlete.
Thus, I think he should emulate Drew Brees. Watch a ton of tape on how Brees finds open throwing lanes, how he buys time in the pocket w/out going crazy back there. How he reads defenses pre- and post-snap. How he understands a team's tendencies as much as they do. Reach out to him and pick his brain.
I would watch a ton of games of not only my own games to see where I struggled at reading coverages, but also of other qbs who fared well against the same teams/schemes.
I would then move to watching video of a defense pre-snap and predict which coverage they will play post-snap. I would identify my top reads in order of progressions to beat that particular defense. And I would do that over and over and over.
I think Baker is intelligent. I think he has the moxie. I think he has the arm. I think he can be a very good qb, but he is going to have to work on the mental part of the game. I also think that he can clean up his mechanics a bit, too. But, the mental part is the number one thing.
I think his success--and the team's success--center around just how much work Baker is willing to put in this upcoming off-season and then every year after that.
I think Baker needs a good platform to be successful, he does not have the raw natural talent like Deshaun, Darnold, Mahomes,Brees, Josh, Aaron, etc who can throw efficiently from non stable platforms
He's more a technique QB, if that makes sense, so when he is moving he's processing a lot of stuff and not playing instinctively. He's paying attention to his platform and to the play... and he's struggling...
I started by thinking that Kitchens was to blame somehow, by going air raid and designing plays that take more time to develop, but now I'm not so sure.
I think Kitchens was expecting for D's to adjust to Baker and take our the easy completions,so he had to change the Offense, and actually made in simpler by going vertical.
Critical for Baker's success is starting to make the screen passes, to take pressure off him. Making D's pay for blitzing him... that's, IMHO, going to be the key for success in the short run.
Contrary to what Vers sees, IMHO, Baker's arm is, again IMHO, limited... it by no means bad, but he's range is the intermediate game, between the numbers.
Reading this thread, some would have you believe that Baker is playing in the worst situation in the league.
Reading this thread others would have you believe Baker is a noodle armed bust who has been outplayed by Daniel Jones (or was it Rudolph Mason?). Based on other threads some would have you believe Baker is a classless malcontent who shoots his mouth off and is always commentating on other player's business and gets players fired and has the power to choose the coaching staff.
Reading this thread, some would have you believe that Baker is playing in the worst situation in the league.
Reading this thread others would have you believe Baker is a noodle armed bust who has been outplayed by Daniel Jones (or was it Rudolph Mason?). Based on other threads some would have you believe Baker is a classless malcontent who shoots his mouth off and is always commentating on other player's business and gets players fired and has the power to choose the coaching staff.
See how that works?
At this moment in time he is one of the worst QBs in the league...
And from what I read there are really very few posters that go that way, most of us believe Baker can turn this around.
Regarding the noodle arm, I never said he had a noodle arm,just that his arm is not elite, which is evident.
This is a good place to look at stats if you are interested. You can click on different stats to see how the QBs compare. Items such as Time to Throw, Aggressiveness, Expected Completion Percentage, Actual Comp Percentage, +/= on Comp. Percentage, etc. There is a glossary if you don't know all the terms.
Reading this thread, some would have you believe that Baker is playing in the worst situation in the league.
Reading this thread others would have you believe Baker is a noodle armed bust who has been outplayed by Daniel Jones (or was it Rudolph Mason?). Based on other threads some would have you believe Baker is a classless malcontent who shoots his mouth off and is always commentating on other player's business and gets players fired and has the power to choose the coaching staff.
See how that works?
At this moment in time he is one of the worst QBs in the league...
And from what I read there are really very few posters that go that way, most of us believe Baker can turn this around.
Regarding the noodle arm, I never said he had a noodle arm,just that his arm is not elite, which is evident.
Sugarcoating this is absurd...
Who is sugar coating it? Who hasn't said Baker needs to improve?
And my post you responded to was an example of what Vers did in his post and served it back to him.... if you take one or two extreme comments and then say "according to some" you can say some pretty inflammatory comments. It's not helpful.
7 of Baker's 11 interceptions have gone off of his wide receivers' hands. Those INTs are mostly bad luck or WR error. Browns are 3-3 or 4-2 without that.
If only that were true. Baker's ball placement thus far has been awful. That pass to Hillard at the end of the game for example, now way he was going to be able to catch that. Mayfield threw the ball behind him and had a ton of juice on the ball, no way your going to catch that pass, even OBJ wouldn't be able to catch that ball. Hilliard tried to stop by jumping and turning his body to try and catch it but couldn't hold on to it with how poorly thrown it was.
OBJ had many balls thrown behind him, and the INT in the endzone he threw to Landry in triple coverage was a pass he had no business even attempting.
Look, I hope Mayfield figures it out because even thought im not a fan of Mayfield, I don't care who the QB is anymore as long as he is decent and wins us games I simply don't care. Right now Mayfield isn't even playing up to backup quality QB...a 66 QBR is atrocious...he has 25 INTs since last year the most in the league by a large margin in that span...he has 11 this year in what 6 games?
I really hope he figures things out and soon. There is too much talent on this team for us to suck the way we have so far...even average mid 80's QBR level of play has us sitting at 4-2 right now. We won't win many games this year if Mayfield continues playing the way he has thus far.
Our OL is giving him 3 seconds to throw on most plays which is more than Tom Brady gets most of the time, what more do you want from your line...Mayfield either runs into sacks or scrambles, he won't step up in the pocket when he has one. He still has a lot to learn, hopefully he learns fast or its going to be a long year.
I can give him a bit of a pass. That 1st year is long for a rookie with all-star games and combine prep. It's basically 2 years without any real time off. Add in he got married.
I don't think there is much doubt he wasn't in real good condition heading in to the season. Looked like he added 10 lbs of non muscle. He is just now dropping that.
He needs to get back to Cleveland more to sit with the coaches in the off season. He needs to dedicate some time to watch film...with someone who knows what they are looking at. I am not looking for 4 hours a day 6 days a week, but a few hours a day, maybe 3 days a week isn't too much to expect.
As for workouts, that is a 10.5 month a year deal. Take the month after the season to allow the body and mind to rest. Then maybe 2 weeks off between mini camps and regular training camp.
I disagree w/you on the pass to Hilliard. That should have been caught. It wasn't a great pass, but it wasn't that bad.
I also think he improved his pocket presence against Seattle. You could tell he wasn't rolling to the right as much. That's progress.
I didn't make this thread to either bash or defend Baker. It was more about identifying some of the things he needs to work on and how to fix those issues.
We aren't giving up on the guy. He is our qb. He has talent. So, in my mind........defending him by blaming others does no good and needlessly trashing him does no good, either.
Identify where he needs to improve and then think of strategies to improve. Progressive thinking.
I disagree w/you on the pass to Hilliard. That should have been caught. It wasn't a great pass, but it wasn't that bad.
I also think he improved his pocket presence against Seattle. You could tell he wasn't rolling to the right as much. That's progress.
I didn't make this thread to either bash or defend Baker. It was more about identifying some of the things he needs to work on and how to fix those issues.
We aren't giving up on the guy. He is our qb. He has talent. So, in my mind........defending him by blaming others does no good and needlessly trashing him does no good, either.
Identify where he needs to improve and then think of strategies to improve. Progressive thinking.
I agree ... the pass to Hilliard (and Callaway at SF) was catchable and needed to be caught.
Baker HAS shown some progress in terms of hanging in the pocket ... just as FK has shown some progress as a HC IMO ... it’s just the fact that we’re going to be 2-5 and have very little margin for error moving forward
it’s just the fact that we’re going to be 2-5 and have very little margin for error moving forward
You don't know we will be 2-5. But that isn't my real point here.
It plays out how it plays out. I was as guilty as anybody, but maybe our expectations were a little high. Maybe we win the division, maybe we don't. We can still have a good season if we don't.
Thanks for talking about how Baker can improve. I agree w/you about taking some time away from the game, but still making time the off-season about learning.
I really can't emphasize enough how important I think it is for him to work on the mental side of it. The intricacies of playing qb. Making the reads, understanding tendencies, moving the safety and LBers w/your eyes. Moving quickly from one read to your next. I wonder if Brees would be willing to share some of his insights w/Baker? He seemed to have some nice things to say about him before last year's game.
I think that Baker's biggest issue is with his feet. When he sets his feet properly, he can hit a rocket in stride. When he throws off a poor base .... well .... we have seen what happens there.
I am also curious to see if he figures out some things when he was sitting out a practice, and watching/working with the receivers.
Brees is the guy he should emulate. There are many similarities in them as athletes.
Interesting to note. In Brees's first full year as a stater 2002. He threw 17 td's, 16 int's. 60.8% completion. 2003 11 td's, 15 int's 57.6% completion.
There is a lot that can be done in film study. Especially when you study an opponent. Defenses like to do certain things based upon not only scheme but personnel. You have to study their tendencies. Division games you should be able to see how they have played you before. What looks they gave. Where did they end up post snap.
As both you and I have stated there is no throw Baker can not make. Frankly those who question his arm strength have lying eyes. When you can throw a deep out on a rope like he can. Arm strength is not a problem.
Film study and work on muscle memory for mechanics are all good things and can help a lot.
However, experience is golden. Experience provides knowledge that sinks deeper into memory.
What also will help is just playing together with the same people over time. Knowing what to expect from those around you. Great receiver/quarterback combos are built over time from the practice field and games played.
Baker, from my read on the guy is a driven highly motivated person. I don't believe work ethic is a problem.
I think that Baker's biggest issue is with his feet. When he sets his feet properly, he can hit a rocket in stride. When he throws off a poor base .... well .... we have seen what happens there.
I am also curious to see if he figures out some things when he was sitting out a practice, and watching/working with the receivers.
I tend to agree with this. I also think there is a time/trust/understanding thing with his WR's that needs to develop. He threw so many passes last year before cuts were made and before Wr's were looking for the ball and I have not seen much of that yet this year.
Reading this thread, some would have you believe that Baker is playing in the worst situation in the league. His coach can't scheme. His receivers are drop-happy. His OL stinks. His receivers can't run good routes.
I wonder how many other NFL QBs would not want to play w/the talent that Baker has at his disposal? We went from saying we had the most talent in the league to being trash.
I think some folks are putting one player above the team.
I think some folks are using Baker as a single-point scapegoat to cover up other deficiencies... just as others are using Freddie as a single-point scapegoat...
To start, we aren't trash.. we are inconsistent, we have made mistakes.. but at times, what this offense could be, what it will be, has been very visible...
Interesting to note. In Brees's first full year as a stater 2002. He threw 17 td's, 16 int's. 60.8% completion. 2003 11 td's, 15 int's 57.6% completion.
That is very interesting. I'd say at this point in the season Baker has gone the wrong way a bit more than Brees did - but an interesting trend.
Does anyone want to comment on my wishes for what Baker can do this offseason to improve? Did anyone find the link to NexGen Stats helpful?
I think you are getting little response because I think most agree with your suggestions. I think what you've suggested makes perfect sense...from way, way outside looking in.
However, we don't know what Baker did or didn't do this off-season. Maybe he identified a few things to work on and did just that. Maybe even at the suggestion of Lincoln Riley or Freddie. Who knows?
He made about six commercials and got married. That surely did not consume more than about six weeks (off-and-on at that) of his off-season - Jan to May let's say sixteen weeks before OTAs. He is noticeably thicker, so he worked on his body during that time. Freddie suggested that he get away from football for a bit.
I have no problem with your suggestions but I'm not Baker...and if I were, I STILL might not take you up on those suggestions. One thing for certain, he's always been praised as a competitive, hard-worker.
I really can't emphasize enough how important I think it is for him to work on the mental side of it. The intricacies of playing qb. Making the reads, understanding tendencies, moving the safety and LBers w/your eyes. Moving quickly from one read to your next. I wonder if Brees would be willing to share some of his insights w/Baker? He seemed to have some nice things to say about him before last year's game.
There is a lot of talk out there on Browns fans boards about just how helpful Zampese (QB Coach) was to Baker on the mental/prep side of things. A lot. I don't know how helpful Lindley is to Baker...but the Zampese thing has legs all over the place.
It has been a point of discussion how difficult our early season schedule is... well, here are the rankings of the pass defenses we've played, their QB rating allowed on the season, and Bakers rating against them..
A few things.. it's clear that Baker is underperforming compared to his peers since in all but one game, his rating was lower than their season average. Poor completion %, too many INTs, too few TDs.. obvious recipe for a crappy rating (and for losing games)
Also of note, the Rams are barely below the midpoint.. every other team we've played is a top half pass defense..
More bad news? rated #1, #3, and #6 are the Patriots, Bills, and Broncos respectively... our next three games. Assuming the ratings don't change, we will have played 8 of the top 12 pass defenses in the NFL in our first 9 games.... based on QB rating allowed...
That's freaking brutal for a young team trying to find itself and its identity...
Does anyone want to comment on my wishes for what Baker can do this offseason to improve? Did anyone find the link to NexGen Stats helpful?
Offseason is a long ways away. He has to get there, first.
I think he can improve things a little just by first getting on the same page with Kitchens. It seems to me that they're adjusting the offense quite a bit between weeks. IMO, nothing can happen until they start to nail down what they want to be on O this season. Then, Baker can work with his pass-catchers and get more in sync with them. I think Baker has accuracy issues, and he/we relies ALOT on the catching ability of OBJ and Landry. We need to try to fix that as much as we can. We're not going to fix his inconsistent accuracy until the offseason at the earliest, but the QB and WRs can get a bit more acclimated to each other.
Reading this thread one would think we'd be 6-0 if it weren't for Baker Mayfield.
I think Baker has to carry some blame into how the offense is performing this year, but its not ALL him. Everyone needs to step it up, and once that happens, things will change. Everyone does include the head coach too. Play calling, time and game management has to improve.
_______
Also, thanks Vers for sharing that Next Gen link.
First thing that I was surprised, is the 'aggressiveness' stat. With all the turnovers, I thought his percentage would have been higher. Then I look at his completion % compared to everyone else, and then get a little disappointed.
Vers, give me a break, you are doing what you are accusing others of. You going around this board dropping 3 Baker hate threads a week and while you rarely, harshly critique anyone else. You're the one that needs to get some balance. You're no different than colin C., you're desperate to prove your predraft evaluation of Baker correct. Give it a rest.
Yeah, there were some interesting numbers provided. I thought the TT [time to throw] was interesting because it showed Baker was tied for third most in time to throw. The two guys who held it longer were Cousins and Rodgers. Rodgers does a lot of add-libbing, but Cousins really surprised me. I keep hearing how terrible Minni's OL is, but maybe it has more to do w/Cousins holding it too long?
The other stat that was telling was the plus/minus on the expected completion percentage to the actual plus/minus on completion percentage. That wasn't so good.
Like you, I was surprised by the Aggressiveness stat. I thought it would have been higher.
Reading this thread one would think we'd be 6-0 if it weren't for Baker Mayfield.
We would be close.
Point is Baker Mayfield has 25 ints and 29 total turnovers in 20 NFL games, He is very close to Ryan Leaf level of awfulness (Leaf had 36 turnovers in 21 games) only difference is the Chargers were smart enough to pull the plug. I don't think the Browns will.
Baker Mayfield to me looks like a bust. To me he is a guy like Scott Mitchell, Rick Mirer, DA, etc...had a few good games but thats it...flash in the pan.
Mayfield is 90% responsible for our losses with his god awful performance. As my life long Steeler friend told me the other day, and I quote:
"Mayfield is stinkign up the joint, he needs to throw catchable balls" Just like Shannon Sharpe says, Beckham is one of the best route runners in the league and he has been open but Mayfield is throwing him horrible passes, throwing behind him, etc.
Mayfield is the dead last ranked QB this year, the only guys who go from doing what Mayfield did last year to looking like this are busts...Courtney Brown had a good season and then done nothing, barring a complete miraclious turn around, I think the Browns will be looking for another QB by years end.
Word is Haslam wanted to keep Gregg Williams, but Dorsey insisted on hiring his own coach and changing the organization structure. Haslam relented, and now the coach reports to Dorsey
Dorsey "flexed his muscles" all right...if this team goes 4-12 or 5-11 Dorsey and company will be out here along with Kitchens.
Its very clear to everyone outside of Cleveland...The Browns should have kept Williams and last year staff. Todd Haley said Baker Mayfield wasn't ready and had ALOT to learn...Todd Haley ahs forgotten more about Qb then any of us will ever know...He guided Big Ben and Kurt Warner, Warner RAVED about how good of an O mind Haley is.
We threw Baker in before he was ready, and the kid is very immature. Hence why he blames the refs in his postgame press conference..it wasn't the refs throwing behind people, throwing into triple coverage, etc...Mayfield is looking like another entitled man child jerk just like Ryan Leaf was and guys like him simply don't get it...nothing is ever Mayfield fault, its always someone else fault...this is the main reaosn why i believe he is a bust.
It has been a point of discussion how difficult our early season schedule is... well, here are the rankings of the pass defenses we've played, their QB rating allowed on the season, and Bakers rating against them..
A few things.. it's clear that Baker is underperforming compared to his peers since in all but one game, his rating was lower than their season average. Poor completion %, too many INTs, too few TDs.. obvious recipe for a crappy rating (and for losing games)
Also of note, the Rams are barely below the midpoint.. every other team we've played is a top half pass defense..
More bad news? rated #1, #3, and #6 are the Patriots, Bills, and Broncos respectively... our next three games. Assuming the ratings don't change, we will have played 8 of the top 12 pass defenses in the NFL in our first 9 games.... based on QB rating allowed...
That's freaking brutal for a young team trying to find itself and its identity...
I think 7 of 11 of bakers ints were tipped or given up by the Wrs. How many dropped balls? What do you say we give Baker some slack instead of trying to run him out of town.
I think KoB post is so ridiculous there is zero point responding. I've said before I think he simply hates Baker. I think comparing the Rookie QB who set an NFL record for TD passes in his rookie year to one of the biggest draft busts in history is nothing short of mindless spite and hate. . . . . and the OP has taken swipes at me for saying that, but I don't know what else you can say to such willful ignorance.
I think Baker Mayfield was more effective last season spreading the ball around. He also made quicker decisions last year because he was not focused on who to throw to.
I think some of his issues this year is he is holding the ball waiting for OBJ to get open.
Baker is a risk taker and forcing the ball down field is what he wants to do. Much like Brett Farve who he is most often compared to. He will throw picks because of his aggressive style.
I never want him to lose his aggressive style of play but in the same token I would like for him to take what the defensive is given him more than he has so far this year. I think that is the reason he spread the ball around better last year. He took what the defense gave him more last season and mixed in his aggressive shots. This year he seems to me to be taken more shots and less spreading the ball and taking what the defense is giving him.
Baker might be better off with a good OL and lesser playmakers to be honest ... he likes to spread the ball around and needs to feel comfortable in the pocket. Having OBJ might actually be a detractor to his progress and effectiveness
I just really... wow. I try to read your posts for the shear entertainment value, I usually make it about half way through. Two things become obvious...
1. You hate Baker with every drop of blood running through your veins.
2. You really haven't watched much football -or- you just don't understand the game.
Each post becomes more and more outrageous. I'll cherry-pick the OBJ comments from this one... OBJ makes highlight videos catching balls with one hand, last week he dropped THREE balls that hit him in both hands. I also watched him NOT run through two routes just last week, one for an incompletion, one for an interception. Meanwhile, we wonder why Baker keeps throwing behind him, well, some of us. But let's not talk about what is actually taking place from game to game.
We can now understand that it's Baker's fault, since you pointed out what wasn't obvious to Browns fans before the trade - passes to OBJ are expected to be perfect to every possible degree of the limits of physics OR anything that indicates he is not an absolute god on the football field is the QB's fault.
Thanks for the update. I'll look forward to your next episode when we learn that Baker is statistically worst than Todd Marinovich's dead cat... Who incidentally died after being kicked by a drunk Baker Mayfield, after he robbed Todd's grandmother for drug money. Should be fun.
So much for the football talk. These threads always get derailed. A few comments:
--Baker is not a bust. He is not going anywhere. He's our qb and he needs to improve.
--Saying other posters "hate" Baker does not make him a better qb. Some folks ignore all the stats, play on the field, and then go off on other posters.
--OBJ is NOT the problem. Hell, we should be getting him the ball more. Baker's issues are mostly from his reads/progressions. Not OBJ.
We are six games into a season with a new coaching staff.
We have had players take turns at making mistakes. We lead the league in penalties.
We have played a tough schedule with major injuries.
Yet K is able to predict the future career of a number one pick. Who in his rookie year set the record for TD's. Threw 20 TD's in the red zone last year with 0 int's.
Nothing else is wrong it is all on Mayfield.
Thankfully nothing he writes carries any credibility and is only worth reading to prove his lack of knowledge.
--Correct, but why get mad if everyone doesn't pigeon-hole their post into such a narrow scope. We can only say the same thing in so many different ways, so many times.
--It's a message board. People respond to each other - it's organic. When someone goes off the deep-end, others will respond in kind.
--Problems are not mutually exclusive. OBJ was part of the problem last week. Any receiver with three drops in a game is part of the problem, especially if he pulls up on one that results in an INT. OBJ had 11 targets, 6 catches, 3 drops, the other two he didn't run through the route. Watch them again and tell me I'm wrong.
Do you want all posts to abide 100% to Baker and his shortcomings with no talk of the 50 influencing circumstances? If you do, just say the word, I'll certainly heed your request.
That is not what I am saying, Fate. I'm saying that posters like 888 are always saying "you hate Baker," as if that is a viable argument to defend Baker's performance. Meanwhile, they don't say a word when posters criticize other players/coaches on the team. They also ignore all the stats, charts, etc completely and then go off w/the "hate" argument. It kills discussion.
I never said that OBJ wasn't part of the problem last week. I think I even mentioned him and the other receivers dropping passes in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly thread where I recapped the game. But, this is a Baker thread. Not sure why we can't talk about what he is doing? The OL, scheme, receivers running wrong routes and dropping passes have been mentioned over and over on this thread. And it's by many of the same folks that use the "hate" argument.
Like I said earlier........"Whatever." I thought this thread made a positive turn earlier, but as soon as KOB made that last absurd post, I knew it would open the flood gates for all this "hate" talk. Yet, not one poster called out the crap from BakerBrown and sourpuss. Let's concentrate on that and ignore what Baker can do to improve his game. Y'all go at it.
That is not what I am saying, Fate. I'm saying that posters like 888 are always saying "you hate Baker," as if that is a viable argument to defend Baker's performance.
Well that's a big fat lie - and I guess I am not surprised. You've been trying to needle me for a while on this ... I'll extend you the courtesy of pointing out all your hypocrisies & garbage non football takes moving forward, instead of remaining silent as I have for some time.
I am very confident any independent thinker/reader can either follow along unless they are trying to twist things - but I'll spell it out for you specifically after your comment here.
The only person I have accused of Hating Baker is KoB - and for very obvious reasons, he has no balance with his opinion of Baker, he straight trashes him. Just like in his last post putting Baker into a comparison with Ryan Leaf. One of, if not the biggest, draft busts all time. He didn't say Baker was as bad as RL, but the post wasn't far away from trying to insinuate that before KoB announced Baker is a bust . I'll call that out, like Fate did and Bonefish, and say that's straight trash.
What I have said on Baker is crystal clear, and I have not tried to defend Baker's performance in any way.
Originally Posted By: mgh888
I am concerned about Baker's accuracy, his happy feet and throwing with poor mechanics compared to last year.
The interceptions? A by product of the accuracy issues to be sure. But I don't look at the interceptions as the issue - the issue is accuracy. . . . I don't look at his number of interceptions and say the problem is worse of better than it is. If Baker had 5 interceptions this year instead of 11 - we are in the same place. Arguing over whose fault they are misses the point.
1. If the balls that hit hands were not intercepted ... there would STILL be a problem.
2. Baker is aggressive and has been throwing balls aggressively in catch up mode in a couple games. 3 in the very first game of the season. Other QB's worried about their stats might have not thrown those balls ... I'll take that willingness Baker has to have crappy stats while trying to win as a positive .... (I'll take the HC trying to score twice in a minute and a half at the end of a half where we are winning as a negative that will probably impact Baker's int's)
As for your continual need to try to get posters to talk about what Baker needs to do to get better ... I haven't commented on that because I think that is a bit asinine. I think that smacks of someone, an ex-football player / coach, wanting to show how smart they are - or try to pretend they are smarter than they actually are since none of us have a clue what Baker's regime is or what/how he is being coaching. I'm not going to be in that discussion, I can't answer that question and won't try. If I see Baker throwing without setting his feet properly, I don;t know the process to coach him to correct that and I am not going to pretend otherwise.... I can speculate on what I see is wrong, and as is well documented, attribute the issues to Baker with multiple contributing areas including, coaching, play calling, scheme, some drops from WR's and a Freddie having a massive change in his responsibilities.
I don't try to police the board and judge if a poster talked about one player but not another - the only person I see do that is you when you start posting antagonistic statements like the one above ...
Do you want all posts to abide 100% to Baker and his shortcomings with no talk of the 50 influencing circumstances? If you do, just say the word, I'll certainly heed your request.
In a thread titled "Baker"? Certainly not. Tell us what he's doing so well if you would like. But yeah, in a thread titled, "Baker", one would think the topic is about Baker.
Do you want all posts to abide 100% to Baker and his shortcomings with no talk of the 50 influencing circumstances? If you do, just say the word, I'll certainly heed your request.
In a thread titled "Baker"? Certainly not. Tell us what he's doing so well if you would like. But yeah, in a thread titled, "Baker", one would think the topic is about Baker.
Well...Baker isn't throwing the ball to himself...or running routes...or blocking...or calling plays. Can't discuss the QB without discussing those guys as well.
Do you want all posts to abide 100% to Baker and his shortcomings with no talk of the 50 influencing circumstances? If you do, just say the word, I'll certainly heed your request.
In a thread titled "Baker"? Certainly not. Tell us what he's doing so well if you would like. But yeah, in a thread titled, "Baker", one would think the topic is about Baker.
Oh, please. This is Dawgtalkers (not that any other message board is much different), we can talk about Sashi, Baker, religion and trade pumpkin bread recipes, all in one thread. If you think talking about the WRs or OLine is pushing the envelope, you're clearly in the wrong place.
As far as Baker and improvement, I'm not ready to talk about the off-season. I expect to see that on a week to week basis... If I don't, there's nary enough "help" for him once the games stop.
We're not talking about someone mechanically unsound, we're not trying to fix a Tebow-like windup or correct someone who constantly "slings it" without proper footwork. Most of what ills him, physically anyway, is looking better every week. Over-stride? Throwing high? Evading the pocket? Those things will probably never go away completely -- he's not a robot and "prototypical QB" is not in his DNA. The Happy Feet? You'll watch those for his entire career (or two years for you KoB), the happy feet are his rhythm mechanism.
The bottom line with Baker, and his game, is he has to transcend into a professional QB. He needs to take "the craft" very seriously. He needs to adopt an off-season "regiment". That should include physical exercises that improve strength and flexibility and mental exercises that challenge his recognition and processing speed.
From what I've read, these change from year to year for even the best QBs. Probably so they don't get stale and yet keep chasing down what they consider week points. This requires the maturity to rocognize the things you can change and the wisdom to find workarounds for things you can't. All of these things come with time. As long as he's not so brash as to think he doesn't need to follow the formula, everything will be fine.
I hate making the same lame excuses for him that we've heard a million times. Busy off-season, getting married, no break since the beginning of his final college season... but they're true. The litmus test will be this eye-opening experience this year. Nothing is promised, I don't care what you did last year, what your supporting cast looks like on paper, what the talking heads are saying while salivating over your prospects. This takes WORK, and the work never stops. Hopefully Bake has learned (is learning) a valuable lesson this year.
I'm willing to wait until next year before I'm ready to make any judgement on Baker/Kitchens.....a season, and a full offseason.....and if things aren't coming together next year, then I tend to think any talk of bust/hot-seat/etc. will be warranted...
A voice of reason, Tyler. He is sharing weak performance. Not victimized. Wishing on a star and working hard to make your own luck are quite different. This is a learning curve, another one, the next one, and he is struggling to show improvement, especially enough to generate wins and silence some critics. We can rationalize, explain it away, fix blame, and it remains: adapt, overcome, and succeed. We are anxious and we are eager. Keep it all on him for his own work to occur. Because realistically it is there. Might get him some Vince Lombardi to consume/read/listen to.
I'm willing to wait until next year before I'm ready to make any judgement on Baker/Kitchens.....a season, and a full offseason.....and if things aren't coming together next year, then I tend to think any talk of bust/hot-seat/etc. will be warranted...
but not until then..
this is probably the wise thing, though I would like to sense that Baker is getting better by the end of this season too .. not worse
I dont get all the hand wringing over placing the blame ... i said it in the game day forum ... if we were a grocery store there’s be clean ups in every damm isle ...
Freddie has his issues ... there no one else’s fault ... empty backfields inside the 5 on multiple occasions ... not giving Nick the ball at the right times ... trying to OUTSMART everyone .. i think he hired Hue’s clock mgr. ... he STINKS at that ..
Bake has his issues ... there no one else’s fault ... take away the tip ball picks and u still have a HOT BUTT MESS ... sometimes i think dudes picking his dinner out of the lobster tank he stands there for so long ...and has he made EVEN ONE PLAY when leaving the pocket .. last year i cam to expect a good play when he moved out of the pocket ..
The OL has issues ... no Vers its not playing as bad as some make it out to be but it still has its moments and is not playing good ...
WR’s/Hilliard ... way to many drops and balls going off the hands and turning into picks or blocked punts ...
The D can’t stop the run or tackle and to top it off we gotta be at or near the bottom of the league in TO’s caused ... i don’t think we even have 5 ... I think we’ve given it away in a few individual games than we’ve created all year ... i’d *L* but thats just too damm sad ...
When your QB is holding the ball the third longest in the NFL, should we really be talking about the OL though? Asking for a friend....
Well, when the QB is throwing into double coverage at twice the rate of any other QB in the league ... it's the scheme.
See, I learn something new every day. I didn't know the scheme forces QB's to throw into double coverage because they can't recognize what the D is doing.
Folks I don't hate Baker Mayfield. I just have no problem calling a spade a spade, I call it how I see it.
Folks need to think Rationally. How do you go from breaking the rookie Td record and all that other stuff, into an INT machine that looks like the 2nd coming of Leaf in one off season? how does that happen?
NFL D coordinators didn't just suddenly just make Baker Mayfield inaccurate. NFL D- Coordinators just didn't adjust and force Mayfield into throwing awful passes into triple coverage. NFL D- Coordinators didn't just magically make Mayfield run into sacks.
Sherlock's Holmes had a famous saying:
Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
Its improbable that Mayfield is not a good QB based on last year.
Its improbable that Mayfield is a bust
However when you add the long list of flash in the pan QB in the NFL the last 30 years, Mirer, DA, Mitchell, Culpepper, Majkowski, Beurlein, Grbac, man I could go.
Point is there is "enough past evidence" to be VERY concerned about Mayfield and thats what folks mistake my hate for which is "concern".
I don't like that:
1. When we win Mayfield always say "I" such as "I was feeling dangerous" 2. when we lose he says "we need to do better", its always "we" not him. 3. He seems adamant on doing the same thing despite it not working like drifting right, this tells me he isn't listening to his coaching, as bad as our coaching has been, there is no way our staff isn't coaching him to stop drifting right, no way i will believe they are that inept, nope, Mayfield just won't listen.
I remember watching him rolls his eyes at Hue Jackson thinking he knows everything. the NFL has a way of humbling guys, but im not sure Mayfield takes humbling very well, he is too cocky, arrogant and prideful and I think this is getting in the way of him learning how to be an NFL player.
Our OL played lights out against Seattle Mayfield wasn't touched, yet he made terrible decisions like throwing into triple coverage in the end zone. Folks are doing him no favors allowing him to just brush off the mistakes as "we"
He needs to own up and say "I MADE THE MISTAKE AND ILL FIX IT" not this "we" nonsense, that will be the 1st step to him maybe turning things around, If he wants to be the man and be the face of the franchise he needs to step up and shoulder the blame.
Guess we will see in 2 years im not saying anything more about the topic. I don't care who our Qb is as long as we win, but there is many reasons to be concerned and burying your head in the sand and not acknowledging it isn't going to help the situation.
I have to shake my head, this post and this thread is predicated on this notion that something is wrong with Baker Mayfield.
He has the same mechanics that threw a record 27 touchdowns last year.
He has the same footwork that he had last season when he led us to 7 wins.
When you talk about what's different, the offense, the coaches, the players, it's met with laughter and insults. Nope, the correct answer apparently is that Baker has bad mechanics, poor footwork, he's regressed, he's bulked up too much, he's become inaccurate, etc etc.
Actually, the real correct answer is that we just need to give it more time.
I'm in the boat that says last year was the status quo, and that this year is more of the anomaly, not vice versa.
We will be fine, let it play out. We have our franchise quarterback. Nothing more to see here....
Nothings wrong with Bake, he is clearly pulling his weight and doing his job and is in no way, shape or form a part of the problem ... its everyone else’s fault and they need to quit bringing Bake down ...
Got it ...
Hmmm ... its not very comfie down here with my head buried this deep in the sand ... *shrugs* ...
As i said we will see in 2 years. Right now im very concerned with what I am seeing. He is not even remotely playing good football at all. I hope that changes and soon .
So much for the football talk. These threads always get derailed. A few comments:
--Baker is not a bust. He is not going anywhere. He's our qb and he needs to improve.
--Saying other posters "hate" Baker does not make him a better qb. Some folks ignore all the stats, play on the field, and then go off on other posters.
--OBJ is NOT the problem. Hell, we should be getting him the ball more. Baker's issues are mostly from his reads/progressions. Not OBJ.
Whatever........
I think people are saying OBJ is part of the problem not because of OBJ himself, and more because Zietler was part of the trade to get him. Carrying that elite line play over from last year, in hindsight, probably would've been more helpful than basically a handful of gadget plays we've been running with him.
I believe our side of the trade is still without question the better side of the deal.
The problem came when management didn't address the tackle position. Assuming Corbett could or would play was a miscue, as was signing Robinson on a "1 year trial." There's more that should have been done to protect your franchise quarterback.
Despite what you read from some in this thread, Baker isn't the only problem.
When your QB is holding the ball the third longest in the NFL, should we really be talking about the OL though? Asking for a friend....
Well, when the QB is throwing into double coverage at twice the rate of any other QB in the league ... it's the scheme.
See, I learn something new every day. I didn't know the scheme forces QB's to throw into double coverage because they can't recognize what the D is doing.
This is what the board is all about ... education.
I just said this in the Pats/Jets thread, but as of now I’m not even sure what to make of it either. Baker has regressed, Darnold is wildly inconsistent, Rosen looks to be toast, Allen isn’t pretty but is on a winning team, and Lamar is totally unconventional
Because nobody want's to wait three years before passing judgement. Far to many want to scream Hall Of Famer or BUST after one season, or even two seasons
Honest question here pit. That stat, third longest hold from snap to release, does that include every pass thrown or just passes thrown from the pocket. If that stat includes all passes thrown I wonder how fair it is to compare a quarterback who drops back into a perfectly clean pocket makes his read and throws to a quarterback who drops back, and on 20% of his dropbacks feels pressure, either real or imagined, rolls out toward a sideline before making his throw. Wouldn’t qb #2 have a longer time to release but not be improperly holding the ball too long?
I wonder what Fran tarketon’s average time to release was back in the day??
So much is needed for success. Quarterbacks do not come into the league ready to play.
The media is so microwave driven.
One week a hero the next a bum. Teams win games. Quarterbacks need support in order to win. Young guys are going to be inconsistent.
Mahomes is really good. But he went to the right team to learn and develop. Good coaching. Good team. Weapons around him. His success is no accident.
Patience is a requirement for young players.
I am optimistic Baker will improve.
Nobody is asking them to be like Wilson or Mahomes, but all QB's have to show improvement, even in losses and in bad teams, when you stop improving so soon, its a major sign of concern no matter in which team you play.
Improvement and development is key... Like with all rookies, first off-season is key for the first big step, but Baker regressed, so that should be a major reason to worry.
All you really have to do is look at the attempts he has when he delivers it quickly. The results are much better.
Then even the question you asked is very subjective. He did much better last week, but up until that point he was rolling right when there really wasn't any pressure to make him do that. He was drifting back in the pocket rather than stepping up when he should be.
So are you talking about when he was "actually pressured" or when he was "perceiving pressure"? Because if you're talking about every time he felt uncomfortable, that doesn't mean he was pressured.
That is how long he has to throw. Based on this, our OL is giving him the 4th most time to throw in the NFL.
This is a bit skewed however, because it just means he is taking that long to throw. We could be ranked 4th because most other QB's are getting the ball out quickly.
Are your rankings flipped? It seems the longer he takes to throw, the higher rank he has?
Just trying to clarify.
Check out his completion % in play-action versus not...I saw a graphic today (Twitter thing that I can't attach) that suggests our insistence on limiting the use of PA is a rather stupid idea.
One half of it anyway. It shows how long the QB is taking to get rid of the ball, to turn it around and say it shows how long an OL is giving him it a bit misguided.
I look at it this way... If there is constant pressure on a QB, he's going to flush out to extend plays. In that respect, it looks like an OL is giving a QB more time when, in fact, the opposite is true.
I'm not saying this is what's happening in respect to the Browns, just a very general observation.
There has been a lot of talk about how bad the OL has been and how Baker's stats about holding the ball are hurt because the line gives up such quick pressure and he is forced to bail early. My eyes tell me that that is incorrect. Here is an article that ranks individual and team pass rush and pass pro win rates. I highlighted the Browns rankings. I will add this information to other threads where people are discussing the OL and our QB.
ESPN Analytics created a revolutionary new way of measuring the pass-block and pass-rush performance of individual NFL players. Editor's Picks
We created better pass-rusher and pass-blocker stats: How they work
Our Pass Block Win Rate metric tells us the rate at which linemen can sustain their blocks for 2.5 seconds or longer. Likewise, our Pass Rush Win Rate metric tells us how often a pass-rusher is able to beat his block within 2.5 seconds. Our model of pass blocking harnesses player tracking data from NFL Next Gen Stats.
I agree ... I actually think if he turns the corner it’ll have to be done in the offseason. Watching film, studying others, talking/reflecting/etc ... I think this year is gonna either make or break him
My eyes told me our OL was playing well enough and giving the QB enough time. I will concede Mayfield was pressured a lot during the San Fran game, but he needs to learn how to deal with that by dumping off the ball.
Mayfield has held us back a lot this year, hopefully he gets better. with even average Qb play we are a 4-2 team right now. Mayfield is ranked dead last in the league and it shows with our record...you can't win with that kinda QB play. the OL is just a scapegoat, they have actually been over achieving this year all things considered.
I specially like the part where they say Baker is not missing explosive plays by that much...
PFF has a Baker crush... they always had.
Unfortunately I don't think Baker is that close on turning the corner.. it will take some time.
First off... thanks to vers for posting that article. That was a fun read.
rasta, When the author said he's not missing explosive plays by much, I immediately thought of the dropped balls (Calloway TD-turned-INT, a couple dropped OBJ balls, and the Ratley one mentioned in the article). Author isn't wrong. Our vaunted receiving corps has let us down (not as much as Baker or Freddie, but there have been big plays where they were the weak link). I'm not sure if this is what the author meant when he made that statement, but that's how I see it.
I specially like the part where they say Baker is not missing explosive plays by that much...
PFF has a Baker crush... they always had.
Unfortunately I don't think Baker is that close on turning the corner.. it will take some time.
First off... thanks to vers for posting that article. That was a fun read.
rasta, When the author said he's not missing explosive plays by much, I immediately thought of the dropped balls (Calloway TD-turned-INT, a couple dropped OBJ balls, and the Ratley one mentioned in the article). Author isn't wrong. Our vaunted receiving corps has let us down (not as much as Baker or Freddie, but there have been big plays where they were the weak link). I'm not sure if this is what the author meant when he made that statement, but that's how I see it.
On the other hand I can recall a significant number of plays where our WR bailed him out...
Just consider the number of times he throws into double and triple coverage...
Yes the author is wrong, we have one of the best WR's in the league, that is quite evident...
Baker is not playing well, no sugarcoating or blaming others please, there is no need for that.
I specially like the part where they say Baker is not missing explosive plays by that much...
PFF has a Baker crush... they always had.
Unfortunately I don't think Baker is that close on turning the corner.. it will take some time.
First off... thanks to vers for posting that article. That was a fun read.
rasta, When the author said he's not missing explosive plays by much, I immediately thought of the dropped balls (Calloway TD-turned-INT, a couple dropped OBJ balls, and the Ratley one mentioned in the article). Author isn't wrong. Our vaunted receiving corps has let us down (not as much as Baker or Freddie, but there have been big plays where they were the weak link). I'm not sure if this is what the author meant when he made that statement, but that's how I see it.
On the other hand I can recall a significant number of plays where our WR bailed him out...
Just consider the number of times he throws into double and triple coverage...
Yes the author is wrong, we have one of the best WR's in the league, that is quite evident...
Baker is not playing well, no sugarcoating or blaming others please, there is no need for that.
Pointing out that responsibility lies one more than 1 person is not sugarcoating. And I'm not blaming the receivers. Baker has played poorly (which I mentioned in the middle of my post).
It blows my mind how some on here can watch a game and say it is 1 person's fault, and that (apparently) pointing out other areas that should be improved is somehow absolving the other of all responsibility. I've never been able to accomplish that leap in logic.
I am interested to see what the Browns coaching staff has done during the bye week. I mentioned that quicker plays would be smart in the Keys to the Game thread. I read something that I believe Grateful posted about how Joe T and Hawk alluding to the Browns practicing quicker plays.
I think it is becoming apparent that Baker really does struggle going through his progressions and seeing the field. So, while it is not ideal, it would be wise to treat him as a system qb for the remainder of this year. Adjust the scheme and play calling to plays that are not asking him to be a cerebral qb. I think that would take a lot of pressure off of our OL and not expose the issues are OTs have.
I am interested to see what the Browns coaching staff has done during the bye week. I mentioned that quicker plays would be smart in the Keys to the Game thread. I read something that I believe Grateful posted about how Joe T and Hawk alluding to the Browns practicing quicker plays.
I think it is becoming apparent that Baker really does struggle going through his progressions and seeing the field. So, while it is not ideal, it would be wise to treat him as a system qb for the remainder of this year. Adjust the scheme and play calling to plays that are not asking him to be a cerebral qb. I think that would take a lot of pressure off of our OL and not expose the issues are OTs have.
WCO without a cerebral QB does not work very well... That's why I think we went for the Air Raid.. Hope I'm wrong.
Work on the screens, that would be a major improvement, just to have that working and making D's pay for blitzing.
Mentally, there is a lot to overcome being a star... some can and others can't...
For sure. But it's not like being a top QB in the country at the College level and being the Heisman winner wasn't just a little bit -- like a teeny weeny tinsie little bit like being a star?
As for the rest of it ... Baker owns his struggles. His lack of accuracy from last year, some poor decisions leaving the pocket too early, perhaps choosing not to take the easy shorter passes when they might have been there. . . . 100%. What's not helping Baker - is a long list of contributing factors.
Mentally, there is a lot to overcome being a star... some can and others can't...
For sure. But it's not like being a top QB in the country at the College level and being the Heisman winner wasn't just a little bit -- like a teeny weeny tinsie little bit like being a star?
As for the rest of it ... Baker owns his struggles. His lack of accuracy from last year, some poor decisions leaving the pocket too early, perhaps choosing not to take the easy shorter passes when they might have been there. . . . 100%. What's not helping Baker - is a long list of contributing factors.
Vince and RG III in college were even bigger stars... NFL is just another level,it requires hard work and being focused. Manziel could be another example.
I didn't say a WCO. I was talking about RPOs, cutting the field in half, focusing on quick reads, mass protection, etc. Baker succeeded in that offense last year. It's not like he suddenly lost everything. I will admit that teams have more information on him and can try and take that stuff away, but I think it's the way to go for the rest of this year.
Also, I saw progress by Baker in the Seattle game. He was throwing to his first read more and he was much better in the pocket.
After this season is over, I hope he does some of the mental studying that I tried talking about earlier in the thread. Too hard to do that now. Now, it's about learning the game plan and preparing for the week's upcoming opponent. The time to grow mentally and improve your mechanics is during the off-season.
I was hoping we would sign a FB during the bye week and run some 21 and 22 personnel like we did last year. I think Hammer mentioned that Telfer lined up at FB twice this year. Maybe he'll get some reps in the backfield.
Okay. What is so funny? I actually reported your post and 888's for not being football posts, especially after 888 said my post was not about football. The refs decided that posts like yours and 888's are "football posts." So, I am going to defend myself.
My post was a football post. They are facts. Not opinions.
Okay. What is so funny? I actually reported your post and 888's for not being football posts, especially after 888 said my post was not about football. The refs decided that posts like yours and 888's are "football posts." So, I am going to defend myself.
My post was a football post. They are facts. Not opinions.
Uh.......this post or yours definitely is not a football post. You gonna "report" yourself? Or do you get a pass?
Edited to add this: It's nice to know you report people for not staying on the topic you think they should stay on.
I'm sure many will keep that in mind in the future regarding you.
I'm really trying hard not to lose faith in Baker, especially since I was convinced last year that we finally chose the right guy to lead us into the future.
But man..he's making it tough. I'm really starting to question his accuracy. Which I thought was one of his strong suits last year.
Every other QB in the league (Andy Dalton included) could have hit that TD pass to Harris down the sideline but Baker underthrew it by a mile and off the DB's helment even? Lack of touch, overthrows, and under throws it just seems like he can't find his groove this year.
I'm not giving up on him, but my confidence in him being the guy is dwindling.
I'm really trying hard not to lose faith in Baker, especially since I was convinced last year that we finally chose the right guy to lead us into the future.
But man..he's making it tough. I'm really starting to question his accuracy. Which I thought was one of his strong suits last year.
Every other QB in the league (Andy Dalton included) could have hit that TD pass to Harris down the sideline but Baker underthrew it by a mile and off the DB's helment even? Lack of touch, overthrows, and under throws it just seems like he can't find his groove this year.
I'm not giving up on him, but my confidence in him being the guy is dwindling.
I've mentioned this throw a couple of times myself. It is simply not a throw franchise QBs should miss.
However, this season has been atypical from just weird things happening that I think I'm willing to write to off. I mean he got a shovel pass intercepted. Has anyone ever seen anything like that? We have no identity on offense. I think Baker showed some decent things today despite missing that throw.
I am not giving up on him, either. However, he's been bad. Very bad.
Dude runs into sacks. He holds it too long. He passes up open receivers and forces the ball to deeper receivers. He is a one-read guy. He makes more commercials than Tom Brady. Dude is holding this team back. There is an old phrase that applies to him in coaching circles. That phrase is "coach killer."
You read this board and you see that when things were going well, the narrative was "Baker is a franchise qb, a HOFer." It was about how he "threw guys open." It was about citing his "rookie TD record." No mention of those who helped him. This year, it's "the OL wont allow him to step up in the pocket," he rolls right because he has guys in his face because GRob sucks so bad," his "HC sucks so bad," even though that was the same dude who coached him last year when he turned it around.
He has some talent and hopefully he can turn it around, but the amount of lies, bullying, and misleading posts on here are not going to help him turn it around. Right now, he is the biggest problem on the team.
Every other QB in the league (Andy Dalton included) could have hit that TD pass to Harris down the sideline but Baker underthrew it by a mile and off the DB's helment even? Lack of touch, overthrows, and under throws it just seems like he can't find his groove this year.
I will add this..........all qbs miss throws. He should have made that throw, but it wasn't that far off and all qbs have throws that they miss. What bugs me about Baker is how poor he is at reading coverages. This one-read crap thing is annoying. Him not throwing the ball to the open receiver is annoying. Early in the game, I see a receiver wide freaking open underneath on the right side and I think Baker is throwing to him. The dude was running upfield and I envision a big play. Instead, he forces a deeper pass to Calloway who as working his way back to Baker in tight coverage farther down the field. Result was an incomplete pass. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Another example is how many times Romo pointed out how Brady just threw the ball in the dirt. Baker doesn't. He plays hero ball.
And while I get that it's hard for most fans to internalize a time clock in their head while they are typing, talking, drinking, etc..............how in the world can not everyone not recognize how much faster Brady got rid of the ball than Baker?
And while I get that it's hard for most fans to internalize a time clock in their head while they are typing, talking, drinkin
I'm not aware of anyone that said that type of thing.
[quote] Every other QB in the league (Andy Dalton included) could have hit that TD pass to Harris down the sideline but Baker underthrew it by a mile and off the DB's helment even?
Under thrown by a mile? Perhaps 2 feet.
Quote:
Lack of touch, overthrog, etc..............how in the world can not everyone not recognize how much faster Brady got rid of the ball than Baker?
I think you are possibly convoluting 2 things: getting rid of the ball quickly, and accuracy.
I also have to wonder if you haven't been hitting the bottle quite heavily. Your spelling is way off, which makes me wonder if your thoughts aren't possibly off.
It's ok. As I told my wife after the first quarter: I may have to drink a bit.
But, the Browns made it a game. Stupid 3 turnovers on 3 straight snaps. Stupid penalties. Missed opportunities...........and I went water most of the game.
I thought baker moved well in the pocket,getting the ball out fast. Was accurate mostly and decisive.
For the most part, he did. But that doesn't suit someones agenda.
Can't blame Baker for the fumbles, but you can blame him for the 'behind the line of scrimmage interception'. Can't blame him for the drops.......can't blame him for the penalties.
[quote] Every other QB in the league (Andy Dalton included) could have hit that TD pass to Harris down the sideline but Baker underthrew it by a mile and off the DB's helment even? Under thrown by a mile? Perhaps 2 feet.
2 feet is a mile when he needed to lead the guy who had 2 steps on the defender. That was a poorly thrown ball, I really believe most college qb's could hit that throw. It was bad.
[quote] Every other QB in the league (Andy Dalton included) could have hit that TD pass to Harris down the sideline but Baker underthrew it by a mile and off the DB's helment even? Under thrown by a mile? Perhaps 2 feet.
Please stop. That was not me who said that.
You are correct. You didn't say that. My apology to you.
I thought baker moved well in the pocket,getting the ball out fast. Was accurate mostly and decisive.
For the most part, he did. But that doesn't suit someones agenda.
I've never seen such a crusade against one player or coach ever just because a guy doesn't personally like a player. Some of what he says is true, some of it is embellishment...but he says the same thing over and over and over again. Sometimes it's direct, sometimes it's passive aggressive. He's embarrassing himself. I'm embarrassed for him at this point.
Baker snuck up on teams last year. He didn't go up.against any real good Defenses in 2018. Fast foward now. Their is film on him now. Defenses know how to play him. He's regressed. He might end up having a career like Chad Pennington. Chad peaked very early In his career and never got better afterwards. His TD to INT got worse. Baker in the off season was more concerned about trying to be "Baker" Instead of being a better QB.
Or perhaps what Baker needs is a coach and/or mentor who will help him take step forward in his maturation and teach him what it takes to be a professional in the NFL. I don't care about all the commercials (I find them quite entertaining). By maturation I mean stop feeding in to "chip on the shoulder" "no one expects us to win" BS that Freddie himself emulates. A back against the wall mentality is only appropriate when you don't have many choices and accept the fact that you are way more likely to fail in your endeavor than be successful.
Okay. What is so funny? I actually reported your post and 888's for not being football posts, especially after 888 said my post was not about football. The refs decided that posts like yours and 888's are "football posts." So, I am going to defend myself.
My post was a football post. They are facts. Not opinions.
All I did was laugh. I come here for entertainment, and I find your infatuation with slamming Baker entertaining.
Since you mentioned me by name and - gasp - reported me:
This post - 2 weeks after Baker's last game - is an agenda post, not a football post. Anyone and everyone who has been on this board for a short while knows and sees that very clearly.
Yesterday wasn’t on baker. As crap as he’s been playing this year, I dunno why people are piling on him for this game.
Well New England just took the day off, so in all truth we can't access his play, it was a pre-season game.
Although I continued to see many of the problems he is having... specially when in the other side you had a really great QB that always does the right thing.
By the way, his INT just sealed the game... if anything that was the deciding moment. It was a butt fumble...
Baker did show improvement on getting rid of the ball quicker at least early in the game. Again this week he stepped up more like last week. While he did have some errant passes, he had streaks when he looked pretty good.
If he can continue to improve from week to week he can become his old self.
Expecting him to begin to go through his progressions and try and read D's post snap certainly creates a learning curve. We've seen a lot of that. But I'm seeing signs that it's starting to come together.
Baker did show improvement on getting rid of the ball quicker at least early in the game. Again this week he stepped up more like last week. While he did have some errant passes, he had streaks when he looked pretty good.
If he can continue to improve from week to week he can become his old self.
Expecting him to begin to go through his progressions and try and read D's post snap certainly creates a learning curve. We've seen a lot of that. But I'm seeing signs that it's starting to come together.
Well, he had a butt fumble that sealed the game...
All QB's look good if you take away the plays where they messed up, and in his case it was bad.
Also for the level of intensity NE was playing, and considering 3/4th of the game was garbage time, he didn't do that well.
Let's try your latest example. Where did I say he was an elite QB? You can compare it any way you want to his last two starts and it was an improvement.
If you can't see that there's no use discussing it with you any further.
Let's try your latest example. Where did I say he was an elite QB? You can compare it any way you want to his last two starts and it was an improvement.
If you can't see that there's no use discussing it with you any further.
You say you saw an improvement and I refuted, saying the most important area where I wanted to see the improvements were not there.
We all see what we want to see. I see the butt fumble that sealed the game, I saw him running into sacks and being inaccurate.
You can't look at a game and take away the bad plays. Chubb is a great player, and taking away the 2 fumbles he had a great game, but who cares. He fumbled twice and Baker had one of the most stupid ints I ever saw in a critical moment of the game.
On a QB, it does not matter.... We should know that from Timmy and Charlie...
A QB that is not consistent, does not protect the ball and does not have the mental fortitude to be the rock when everything is chaotic around him, will never accomplish much.
Maybe he is being pushed to hard and needs some slack so he can regroup... When the Int came, I just felt sorry for the kid.
Maybe you should give him time to mature. The Saints are glad that the Chargers didn't give Brees that time.
I agree 100% with you. I think Baker should have been benched some games ago. Sometimes you just try to hard and nothing you do comes good.
He needs to settle down and work in his craft. He should have done it in the off-season,but that's in the past. He is not prepared to play at this level, and its showing now.
Let's try your latest example. Where did I say he was an elite QB? You can compare it any way you want to his last two starts and it was an improvement.
If you can't see that there's no use discussing it with you any further.
You say you saw an improvement and I refuted, saying the most important area where I wanted to see the improvements were not there.
We all see what we want to see. I see the butt fumble that sealed the game, I saw him running into sacks and being inaccurate.
You can't look at a game and take away the bad plays. Chubb is a great player, and taking away the 2 fumbles he had a great game, but who cares. He fumbled twice and Baker had one of the most stupid ints I ever saw in a critical moment of the game.
How did the INT seal the game? If I recall, they scored a FG on it to make it 17????? Nice try to keep saying what your saying, doesn't make it true.
Last I checked, a TD hurt you worse than a FG. So by your logic (and I use that term loosely with you) Chubb's fumble sealed the game.....
By the way, his INT just sealed the game... if anything that was the deciding moment. It was a butt fumble...
And it's all Baker's fault... Correct?
Let's not take anything else into consideration, it would make far too much sense. Like the facts...
Fact: The shovel pass to Landry might be our single-most dangerous weapon over the past 18 games. I guarantee, without looking, there are gains of over 50, 40 and 30 yards, with other chunk yardage gains.
Fact: It has worked to near perfection as far as execution goes, never even a questionable pitch. Execution has been so good that Jarvis has usually needed one move to break into the secondary, many times only being brushed by a defender before he gets there.
Fact: Baker doesn't wait for the dumb play to develop, duh. The ball is in his hands for a 4/10 of a second. The first 2/10 he's looking in the other direction at Chubb to sell the play. His execution has been so good, that in one variation, he tossed the ball to himself and completed game-changing pass. It froze the defense, it was next level.
Fact: Rain had nothing to do with it.
Fact: The play had such long-running success that no adjustment was ever needed, execution was so easy - players were a victim of the ease of success.
Biggest Fact: On the other side of the field was Belichick. This is the ultimate example of "takes away what you do best". His players practiced to beat this play. Guaranteed. Not stop the play, BEAT IT. What can be counted on as a 15+ yard play, on average, is now on the brink of a TD the other way. Back-breaking.
Bill Belichick won the game with one play. It's a "head-on crash" type play. Strapped in for sure success, you get run over instead. The same coach won a Superbowl when he ran over a Ferrari with a Yugo... a specific play that his team had practiced all week. Russell Wilson knew it as soon as the ball left his hand. The player gave credit to a coaching staff that had him perfectly prepared to make the play.
By the way, his INT just sealed the game... if anything that was the deciding moment. It was a butt fumble...
And it's all Baker's fault... Correct?
Let's not take anything else into consideration, it would make far too much sense. Like the facts...
Fact: The shovel pass to Landry might be our single-most dangerous weapon over the past 18 games. I guarantee, without looking, there are gains of over 50, 40 and 30 yards, with other chunk yardage gains.
Fact: It has worked to near perfection as far as execution goes, never even a questionable pitch. Execution has been so good that Jarvis has usually needed one move to break into the secondary, many times only being brushed by a defender before he gets there.
Fact: Baker doesn't wait for the dumb play to develop, duh. The ball is in his hands for a 4/10 of a second. The first 2/10 he's looking in the other direction at Chubb to sell the play. His execution has been so good, that in one variation, he tossed the ball to himself and completed game-changing pass. It froze the defense, it was next level.
Fact: Rain had nothing to do with it.
Fact: The play had such long-running success that no adjustment was ever needed, execution was so easy - players were a victim of the ease of success.
Biggest Fact: On the other side of the field was Belichick. This is the ultimate example of "takes away what you do best". His players practiced to beat this play. Guaranteed. Not stop the play, BEAT IT. What can be counted on as a 15+ yard play, on average, is now on the brink of a TD the other way. Back-breaking.
Bill Belichick won the game with one play. It's a "head-on crash" type play. Strapped in for sure success, you get run over instead. The same coach won a Superbowl when he ran over a Ferrari with a Yugo... a specific play that his team had practiced all week. Russell Wilson knew it as soon as the ball left his hand. The player gave credit to a coaching staff that had him perfectly prepared to make the play.
Snopes it.
Fact: What you are calling facts are just your opinions
Fact: Baker was intercepted in a shovel pass. Opinion: you know how ridiculous that is?
Let's try your latest example. Where did I say he was an elite QB? You can compare it any way you want to his last two starts and it was an improvement.
If you can't see that there's no use discussing it with you any further.
You say you saw an improvement and I refuted, saying the most important area where I wanted to see the improvements were not there.
We all see what we want to see. I see the butt fumble that sealed the game, I saw him running into sacks and being inaccurate.
You can't look at a game and take away the bad plays. Chubb is a great player, and taking away the 2 fumbles he had a great game, but who cares. He fumbled twice and Baker had one of the most stupid ints I ever saw in a critical moment of the game.
How did the INT seal the game? If I recall, they scored a FG on it to make it 17????? Nice try to keep saying what your saying, doesn't make it true.
Last I checked, a TD hurt you worse than a FG. So by your logic (and I use that term loosely with you) Chubb's fumble sealed the game.....
be gone.
The Int was followed by a TD, which made it 0-17.
It also followed two fumbles in our team, and was the the icing on the cake of our ineptitude,being intercepted on a shovel pass.
There was no recovering from that, after that play it was just like a pre-season game.
We all know how ridiculous it was... we watched it.
We are simply worlds apart on what it actually was.
Carry on.
Please explain... If I'm understanding it right, in your opinion Baker has no responsibility in it?
Apparently others share your opinion... I bet very few non Browns fan will agree with that, because if it was another QB doing that,you would have no doubts... like in all the comments in the replay...
Yeah. Bang bang play. Baker isn't looking to see if the receiver is open. He gets ball and has a split second motion toward Chubb then shovels it.
You think Baker has time to look at it JL? You wanna blame Baker for that? Go right ahead but that opinion tarnishes any other comment you ever want to make about Baker. Bakers had plenty of issues this year. ThAt shovel pass ain't one of them.
We all know how ridiculous it was... we watched it.
We are simply worlds apart on what it actually was.
Carry on.
Please explain... If I'm understanding it right, in your opinion Baker has no responsibility in it?
Apparently others share your opinion... I bet very few Browns fan will agree with that, because if it was another QB doing that,you would have no doubts... like in all the comments in the replay...
Its just too bad to even be arguing this point...
Nope. Didn't say that, everyone bears responsibility of being beaten on that play, right through the coaching. That play has been so easy, I bet we don't even practice it. However, way more credit is due to BB than fault to placed with Baker. Blaming Baker's role, and using it as example of whether he's capable of being a franchise QB, is like blaming world hunger on the price of seeds. Doesn't hold water, champ.
ope. Didn't say that, everyone bears responsibility of being beaten on that play, right through the coaching. That play has been so easy, I bet we don't even practice it. However, way more credit is due to BB than fault to placed with Baker. Blaming Baker's role, and using it as example of whether he's capable of being a franchise QB, is like blaming world hunger on the price of seeds. Doesn't hold water, champ.
While I agree in the broadest sense of principal. Just watch the play real time ... Baker doesn't have time to register or not that the DE is getting through the line - and the DE arrives there at exactly the same time that he throws the ball. This isn't on Baker. It's truly ridiculous to suggest Baker owns this.
As to the BB talk and coaching and play scheming. What I understood you are *supposed* to do... is have a really good play that's successful for you. Then add a wrinkle - so you run what looks to be the exact same play with a new opponent who may have or probably game planned for it - then you change it and move the cheese. . . . but we didn't and don't . . . neither are we good enough to do what SF and some of these other very good offenses do, which is simply do something really well until the other team stops you.
so you run what looks to be the exact same play with a new opponent who may have or probably game planned for it - then you change it and move the cheese. . . . but we didn't and don't . . .
Actually, we ran this against Baltimore to perfection for a landry TD.
We ran it to the other side of the field though that play if I recall, with landry coming from the right going left. This play landry was coming from the left going right.
Nobody blocked Guy. Nobody including Landry saw him.
Baker had a decent game and made some good throws.
You are predetermining his play.
First Chubb fumble was a fluke. Ball was kicked out by a Browns player. The second Chubb fumble was a good play by the defender. Yes, Chubb could have protected better.
The shovel pass was the error on the blocking assignment.
Yesterday wasn’t on baker. As crap as he’s been playing this year, I dunno why people are piling on him for this game.
Well New England just took the day off, so in all truth we can't access his play, it was a pre-season game.
Although I continued to see many of the problems he is having... specially when in the other side you had a really great QB that always does the right thing.
By the way, his INT just sealed the game... if anything that was the deciding moment. It was a butt fumble...
You know man, I am tired of your excrement. You don't know they took a day off.
Nobody blocked Guy. Nobody including Landry saw him.
Baker had a decent game and made some good throws.
You are predetermining his play.
First Chubb fumble was a fluke. Ball was kicked out by a Browns player. The second Chubb fumble was a good play by the defender. Yes, Chubb could have protected better.
The shovel pass was the error on the blocking assignment.
You wish to blame it Baker. So be it.
The shovel pass wasn't Baker's fault.... Now this is a new level of denial.
You can't play QB with the eyes closed... this is so ridiculous, I can't even describe..
And what even more amusing, is that people are feeling insulted because I'm saying the obvious.
Yes it was Baker's fault, like it was Sanchez fault to be tackled by a butt .
You can either laugh at it, or make a fool of yourself trying to defend the indefensible
Trade him? Draft another QB? Rant about something?
Try to prove he knows something or show he knows nothing?
My point is extremely simple, I was just answering another poster who was saying Baker was progressing, if you took away the stupid plays.
I just pointed to the fact that what we wanted to see was him not doing dumb stuff, and that I didn't see any improvements - hence the butt fumble, among other things in his play against NE.
And IMHO we should have benched Baker a long time ago, this is not doing anything good to him and his development.
This one is going down has one of the 10 most dumb plays in the history of the NFL, a shovel pass Int...
Any credibility you had, which is none, just got flushed down the toilet.
Please elaborate...
a) In your opinion this was not a dumb play
b) there are more than 9 plays dumber than this one
c) I'm making all this stuff up, and created some twitter, facebook and insta accounts to bad mouth Baker. I even disguised myself has a reporter and went into shows making up the butt fumble thing.
d) its was actually me throwing the ball, not Baker...
Ahh, twitter memes are where you are basing your opinions from....gotcha
SHOVEL PASS INT... what else do you need to know, its absolutely amazing you don't see it, and then call others crazy...
SHOVEL PASS INT... its going on Wikipedia with Baker on it...
I don't think you know how plays work in the NFL, or how things are setup for them to work.
You do realize, we have run that play about a dozen times right? Have scored it on it in the past? That its basically a staple in our offense? That Bakers job is to loft the ball in the air while looking the other way to create misdirection? That the oline is supposed to block? You realize in football, you don't throw to a "person" a lot. You actually throw to a spot, and its the receivers job to be there right? Literally ever person on this board has informed you over and over of your trolling, and frankly just idiotic takes and stances. Seriously, go away. You are not worth the time.
The only time you even post is when baker or the browns have a bad game. You offer no other post, and when baker has played good pretty much all last year during the season, you have disappeared. Then, like an internet troll, when he has a bad game, you appear amazingly with such timing. Its odd.....
Ahh, twitter memes are where you are basing your opinions from....gotcha
SHOVEL PASS INT... what else do you need to know, its absolutely amazing you don't see it, and then call others crazy...
SHOVEL PASS INT... its going on Wikipedia with Baker on it...
I don't think you know how plays work in the NFL, or how things are setup for them to work.
You do realize, we have run that play about a dozen times right? Have scored it on it in the past? That its basically a staple in our offense? That Bakers job is to loft the ball in the air while looking the other way to create misdirection? That the oline is supposed to block? You realize in football, you don't throw to a "person" a lot. You actually throw to a spot, and its the receivers job to be there right? Literally ever person on this board has informed you over and over of your trolling, and frankly just idiotic takes and stances. Seriously, go away. You are not worth the time.
The only time you even post is when baker or the browns have a bad game. You offer no other post, and when baker has played good pretty much all last year during the season, you have disappeared. Then, like an internet troll, when he has a bad game, you appear amazingly with such timing. Its odd.....
The Waterboy play... at least in the movie it worked.. Or the dangerous fake from a dangerous man?
Its a Friggin shovel pass, you look at where you pass, and don't make up stuff when there were 2 fumbles before.
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A SHOVEL PASS INT?
My first was Baker's... that tells you how stupid it was,
Its an aberration to even try to explain... or going through the details, if you can't see why a QB can't do that...
I think the kid should be protected and benched, just like I was saying about Kizer, its not bashing the kid to say he is the worst QB in the league, because its true.
He is a hindrance, he has no command of the offense, no grasp on what is going around him. It him and let the guy calm down.
Specifically, #67 Left OT was pulling to the right and his left arm hit #75 as the Left OT passed behind Left OG. It obstructed Bitonio's block just enough to keep him from making a good block, getting his head in front of the pass rusher instead of behind the DE.
Well, Baker did it and was INTERCEPTED when we had 2 fumbles before, 0-10 against the best D in the league.
Do you see now how stupid it was?
This was worst than the Kizer sneak... and that was stupid
hahaah you literally just admitted that entire beef is the play call. That its stupid to have run that play after 2 fumbles (which were not bakers fault as you tried to hint earlier). You realize that baker doesn't call the plays, right?
Cal...just like any play, if everyone does their job, that play goes for good yardage. The weather was not a factor unless the players allow the weather to be a factor. Baker did not fumble the snap and was able to make the toss.
It was the penetration of the DE who blew the play up.
Hindsight: common sense..if the play had not been practiced enough with this personnel group, I would not run the play. But, without knowing how many times that play was practiced by this group, it's hard to say it was a bad call.
Had Bitonio been able to get a clean block on #83, the play could have gone for good yardage.
Cal...just like any play, if everyone does their job, that play goes for good yardage. The weather was not a factor unless the players allow the weather to be a factor. Baker did not fumble the snap and was able to make the toss.
It was the penetration of the DE who blew the play up.
Hindsight: common sense..if the play had not been practiced enough with this personnel group, I would not run the play. But, without knowing how many times that play was practiced by this group, it's hard to say it was a bad call.
Had Bitonio been able to get a clean block on #83, the play could have gone for good yardage.
Its a play we have run before, a few times. Even have scored on it in the past. I would say we have practiced it a good deal.
Cal...just like any play, if everyone does their job, that play goes for good yardage. The weather was not a factor unless the players allow the weather to be a factor. Baker did not fumble the snap and was able to make the toss.
It was the penetration of the DE who blew the play up.
Hindsight: common sense..if the play had not been practiced enough with this personnel group, I would not run the play. But, without knowing how many times that play was practiced by this group, it's hard to say it was a bad call.
Had Bitonio been able to get a clean block on #83, the play could have gone for good yardage.
Its a play we have run before, a few times. Even have scored on it in the past. I would say we have practiced it a good deal.
willie...the question I have..did McCray understand that he had to give Bitonio ample room as he went by him?
It was definitely the timing between the L-OT and L-OG that caused the play to fail.
When a play is executed properly the fans love it. When it fails the fans hate it. And the noose so many are holding right now always has to point a finger somewhere.
When a play is executed properly the fans love it. When it fails the fans hate it. And the noose so many are holding right now always has to point a finger somewhere.
+1 Agree.
Every play, there are 11 guys that need to do their part for it to be a successful play.
Some plays, a few guys do their part, but others don't and it doesn't work out.
This was one of those plays. I have been hard on Baker and Freddie since the season started. They have been HOT GARBAGE. But this play is a staple for us, and has been used successfully before. Baker did his job, someone on the line did not.
Cal...just like any play, if everyone does their job, that play goes for good yardage. The weather was not a factor unless the players allow the weather to be a factor. Baker did not fumble the snap and was able to make the toss.
It was the penetration of the DE who blew the play up.
Hindsight: common sense..if the play had not been practiced enough with this personnel group, I would not run the play. But, without knowing how many times that play was practiced by this group, it's hard to say it was a bad call.
Had Bitonio been able to get a clean block on #83, the play could have gone for good yardage.
Its a play we have run before, a few times. Even have scored on it in the past. I would say we have practiced it a good deal.
willie...the question I have..did McCray understand that he had to give Bitonio ample room as he went by him?
It was definitely the timing between the L-OT and L-OG that caused the play to fail.
The only thing I know, is that someone on the line failed. But hey, some are going to hang the qb and / or coach simply for personal reasons
Baker isn't a good QB. The only guys who play like what we see now that did what Mayfield did last year are flash in the pans...been many flash in the pan NFL QB..Scott Mitchell, Rick Mirer, Don Majkowski, Steve Buerlein, Derek Anderson, I could continue but im sure you get the point now.
watch the film last year, Mayfield was only asked to look at half the field, he was literally one read and throw the ball. Mayfield is nothing more than an RPO QB and the RPO isn't something you can base your O around in the NFL because its mostly one read. You can use a few RPO concepts here and there, but if your not under center, 3 step drop, 5 step drop, timing routes, you won't make it in the NFL. Mayfield is beyond awful in these areas.
He has never had to actually "read" a Defense before. This kid is more lost right now than Deshone Kizer. Infact i'd rather have Kizer...Mayfield posted a QBR of 13....13 for FFS! That worse than any QBR Kizer posted in 2017 season. Yet Kizer who was a 2nd rd pick gets crucified, yet Faker Pickfield is given a pass for this absolute garbage we see.
The Mayfield pick is looking like a big mistake. The more I look at it, the more I think Dorsey blew the 2018 NFL draft. No one else was taking Mayfield in the top 5, if he really wanted him, he could have taken him at #4. We should have taken either Barkley(the BPA who won NFL rookie of the year) or moved down a few spots for more picks. Yes I would have taken both Barkley and Chubb in the same draft and ran the wheels off both of them. It easy to find a QB when you have a running game like you would have had with both Chubb and Barkley, passing becomes childsplay then, everyone is wide open when you have that kinda threat to run.
the Browns got typical and outsmarted themselves, they kneejerked...instead of being calm and simply taking the best damn player in the entire draft, they reached...Sashi Brown got it right taking Garret...he is in his 3rd year of Pro Bowl caliber play which is what you expect from a #1 overall pick...Mayfield wasn't even the best QB in this draft on many charts...we would have been better off with either Darnold or Josh Allen...Allen would have required more patience, but he is far more physically gifted than Mayfield..a big tall athletic guy with a big arm...he has Big Ben written all over him, and he is humble and coachable...what more could you ask for...
Cal...just like any play, if everyone does their job, that play goes for good yardage. The weather was not a factor unless the players allow the weather to be a factor. Baker did not fumble the snap and was able to make the toss.
It was the penetration of the DE who blew the play up.
Hindsight: common sense..if the play had not been practiced enough with this personnel group, I would not run the play. But, without knowing how many times that play was practiced by this group, it's hard to say it was a bad call.
Had Bitonio been able to get a clean block on #83, the play could have gone for good yardage.
Its a play we have run before, a few times. Even have scored on it in the past. I would say we have practiced it a good deal.
willie...the question I have..did McCray understand that he had to give Bitonio ample room as he went by him?
It was definitely the timing between the L-OT and L-OG that caused the play to fail.
Here is the play. You can drag it and play in slow motion as well...
Cal...just like any play, if everyone does their job, that play goes for good yardage. The weather was not a factor unless the players allow the weather to be a factor. Baker did not fumble the snap and was able to make the toss.
It was the penetration of the DE who blew the play up.
Hindsight: common sense..if the play had not been practiced enough with this personnel group, I would not run the play. But, without knowing how many times that play was practiced by this group, it's hard to say it was a bad call.
Had Bitonio been able to get a clean block on #83, the play could have gone for good yardage.
Its a play we have run before, a few times. Even have scored on it in the past. I would say we have practiced it a good deal.
willie...the question I have..did McCray understand that he had to give Bitonio ample room as he went by him?
It was definitely the timing between the L-OT and L-OG that caused the play to fail.
Here is the play. You can drag it and play in slow motion as well...
Milk...Already done that...
Blew it up full screen (24") and replayed it several times at 0.25 speed.
There has been one change on the entire OL since last season. As you may notice, the mix up in this play didn't involve Kush.
But it is kind of cool having a G named Kush.
On paper, there was one change to personnel but we do have new OL coaching staff that likely teach the game differently.
Both of the Browns OTs are marginal starters at the NFL level. It took Robinson half the season to take over the LT job and he did play ok.
I wrote about Robinson and his need to come in to training camp at 315-320 to improve his play this season. I don't know exactly what the guy weighs but he looks slow, out of shape at times. In short, Robinson is a big disappointment...
Hubbard is a marginal starter at the OT position, imo.
OLine coaches like certain types of linemen and the Browns OTs might not measure up.
Given that both of our OTs were backups in the places we got them, and not good ones at that, it's a safe bet that we've wrung all the usefulness from them that we can and need shiny new ones.
In 2017 Hubbard did start 10 games for the Steelers before the Browns signed him last season when he started all 16 games.
That said, with the speed of DEs and LBers, your OTs better have the quickness to match up. Both of the present Browns OTs are slow and struggle with speed rushers and blitzes.
Teams that have OLines that struggle to protect the QB usually have QB issues such as poor performance and injuries.
The Browns need to pay the price to draft two OTs capable of starting as rookies, imo.
Baker isn't a good QB. The only guys who play like what we see now that did what Mayfield did last year are flash in the pans...been many flash in the pan NFL QB..Scott Mitchell, Rick Mirer, Don Majkowski, Steve Buerlein, Derek Anderson, I could continue but im sure you get the point now.
watch the film last year, Mayfield was only asked to look at half the field, he was literally one read and throw the ball. Mayfield is nothing more than an RPO QB and the RPO isn't something you can base your O around in the NFL because its mostly one read. You can use a few RPO concepts here and there, but if your not under center, 3 step drop, 5 step drop, timing routes, you won't make it in the NFL. Mayfield is beyond awful in these areas.
He has never had to actually "read" a Defense before. This kid is more lost right now than Deshone Kizer. Infact i'd rather have Kizer...Mayfield posted a QBR of 13....13 for FFS! That worse than any QBR Kizer posted in 2017 season. Yet Kizer who was a 2nd rd pick gets crucified, yet Faker Pickfield is given a pass for this absolute garbage we see.
The Mayfield pick is looking like a big mistake. The more I look at it, the more I think Dorsey blew the 2018 NFL draft. No one else was taking Mayfield in the top 5, if he really wanted him, he could have taken him at #4. We should have taken either Barkley(the BPA who won NFL rookie of the year) or moved down a few spots for more picks. Yes I would have taken both Barkley and Chubb in the same draft and ran the wheels off both of them. It easy to find a QB when you have a running game like you would have had with both Chubb and Barkley, passing becomes childsplay then, everyone is wide open when you have that kinda threat to run.
the Browns got typical and outsmarted themselves, they kneejerked...instead of being calm and simply taking the best damn player in the entire draft, they reached...Sashi Brown got it right taking Garret...he is in his 3rd year of Pro Bowl caliber play which is what you expect from a #1 overall pick...Mayfield wasn't even the best QB in this draft on many charts...we would have been better off with either Darnold or Josh Allen...Allen would have required more patience, but he is far more physically gifted than Mayfield..a big tall athletic guy with a big arm...he has Big Ben written all over him, and he is humble and coachable...what more could you ask for...
LOL....why aren't you guys TV analysts? Drew Breeze had a bad 2nd year....
Baker is going to be fine. Anybody that didn't expect struggles lied to themselves. Nothing going on here that good coaching and time can't fix, unless fans make him want out of Cleveland. His play this year is still better than 50% of the play we've had since the return. A lot of you thought Brian Hoyer was the second coming and I think Baker is much better than Hoyer with a ton more upside.
ridiculous — Kizer was absolutely terrible. A turnover machine. He had twice as many picks as he had TDs the season he was here
No arguing there, Kizer was terrible, he was rattled and mentally unstable. Had a great arm though...
You don't accomplish much by insisting on playing young QB's who aren't ready. We should learn from our mistakes.
Baker is a complete mental mess, he has no command of the offense, and he is not helping the team. We need a veteran with experience that can calm everyone around and get the levels of panic down.
Baker is a complete mental mess, he has no command of the offense, and he is not helping the team. We need a veteran with experience that can calm everyone around and get the levels of panic down.
This is absolutely not true.
This thread has gone way off the deep end. I hope it shuts down soon and we don't have to endure another Baker thread.
Yeah, I don’t think Baker doesn’t understand the offense ... I think he doesn’t understand the defenses he’s seeing and isn’t processing quickly enough.
IMO, we tried putting more on his plate and he wasn’t ready for it, and now his confidence isn’t what it was last year
i don't think there is an actual "offense" per se. Like Dilfer said, its a spitball offense..making things up on the fly instead of developing an identity and sticking with it.. Freddie trying to be the smartest guy in room and its hurting development
i don't think there is an actual "offense" per se. Like Dilfer said, its a spitball offense..making things up on the fly instead of developing an identity and sticking with it.. Freddie trying to be the smartest guy in room and its hurting development
Baker is a complete mental mess, he has no command of the offense, and he is not helping the team. We need a veteran with experience that can calm everyone around and get the levels of panic down.
This is absolutely not true.
This thread has gone way off the deep end. I hope it shuts down soon and we don't have to endure another Baker thread.
Man I do enjoy a personal attack... I'm under your skin..
No baker does not understand the offense, nor command it. He's seeing ghosts has no ability to command respect and accountability. The kid is shi**** in his pants, and we call can see it...
Why do you think there are so many offense penalties, false starts, etc..
If he did know our O he wouldn't be missing so many open players...
Get a grip dude, when a player is playing like Baker is right now, you just look silly saying stuff to excuse him.
He needs to be benched, stop feeling dangerous and start working on his craft.
I have nothing against the Kid, and honestly think he has potential, but you groupies make it really hard...
