Browns LT Greg Robinson has either already been benched or is in serious jeopardy of it, source says

Oct 16, 2019

Cleveland.com

By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com


BEREA, Ohio — Browns starting left tackle Greg Robinson has already been benched or is in serious jeopardy of it, a league source told cleveland.com on Wednesday.

Robinson, who’s grading out better this season than he did last year, declined to talk when approached at his locker on Wednesday. He won’t be available again until next week, when the Browns return from their bye week and start preparing for their Oct. 27 game against the 6-0 Patriots.

When the Browns return from the bye, there’s a decent chance Robinson will be replaced by someone else on the Browns’ roster, possibly backup tackle Kendall Lamm. The Browns are also contemplating replacing right guard Eric Kush, possibly with Wyatt Teller.

Browns GM John Dorsey also admitted on Wednesday that he’s had “a few conversations” with Redskins president Bruce Allen about trading for seven-time Pro Bowl left tackle Trent Williams, who’s holding out and disgruntled. Allen has said he has no plans to trade Williams anytime soon, and that still seems to be the case.

“It takes two to tango,’’ said Dorsey.

Dorsey says he’s had a few conversations with Redskins’ Bruce Allen, obviously about Trent Williams

Still, Dorsey made it clear he’s not happy with Robinson, who’s playing on a one-year, $6.4 million ‘prove-it’ deal.

“I would like Greg to be more consistent,’’ Dorsey said. “Just be more consistent as a football player.’’

Robinson has improved from the 64th-best tackle according to profootballfocus.com last season to No. 43 this year. He’s given up only one sack this season, and two hits. He’s tied for 41st in the NFL this season with 10 pressures, and has allowed seven hurries.

But he’s also blocking for struggling second-year quarterback in Baker Mayfield, who’s tied for third NFL in holding onto the ball at 2.9 seconds, according to profootballfocus.com. Still, against the Seahawks, Mayfield didn’t get sacked or hit once, except for when he scrambled for a first down in the third quarter.

Robinson is also part of a run-blocking effort that has enabled Nick Chubb to climb to No. 2 in the NFL with 607 yards. But he’s also been flagged for five penalties (a sixth was declined) and was ejected from the season opener vs. Tennessee.

“For every one of them, not only [Robinson], just the heightened awareness, surroundings, what’s going on within a defensive structure and seeing things quicker, reaction,’’ said offensive line coach James Campen. “I think for the whole, entire group, if we can get that going, we’re going to cover up a lot of things.’’

Campen doesn’t buy into the QB holding the ball too long theory when it comes to linemen.

“If we’re going by stopwatch, you’re asking the wrong person,’’ he said. “Because I don’t believe in stopwatches, I think it’s a bunch of hogwash. I think you protect as long as it takes him to throw the damn ball. End of discussion. Period. You block until as much time as he needs to throw the ball. I’ve always believed that and I will not stop teaching that.’’

While some felt that Robinson’s holding call on Mayfield’s last drive against the Seahawks was an unnecessary flag, Campen didn’t absolve Robinson. It happened on the second play of the final drive, and knocked the Browns back to the 15. Mayfield was intercepted two plays later.

“Certainly no one feels worse about it than Greg, and it’s something that you have to increase your awareness,’’ said Campen. “Penalties and those things, let’s don’t put somebody to make it a judgment error. Let’s don’t put ourselves in position even to have something like that come up. And whether it’s at the end of the game or the beginning, it makes no sense. So it’s an easy fix, I mean, drop your outside hand and let’s go. Let’s don’t put them in the position to make calls on our behalf. Do what we’re supposed to do and things will work out.’’

Freddie Kitchens also cited that holding call several times after the loss, and Dorsey brought up Robinson getting ejected from the opener for kicking Titans safety Kenny Vaccaro in the head, which Robinson said was inadvertent. Dorsey mentioned it in the context of a lack of continuity on the line, which has hurt Mayfield, who’s tumbled to 33rd in the NFL with a 66.0 rating.

“If you remember, all of the sudden, Greg gets removed from a game and all of the sudden you have to rotate the tackles and all of the sudden another tackle plays hurt and then you have to play rotating tackles again,’’ he said. “So there’s got to be a cohesiveness with those five guys on a consistent basis and they haven’t been in unity here together and being able to operate as one and that’s what you want your offensive line to do on a week to week basis is be together with five guys working together.”

When they return from the bye, it could be a different five guys.


https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/10...ource-says.html

It may be either:

Forbes time
Williams time

The article mentions Kendall Lamm as the possible replacement.

Yeah I know, I was just thinking about Forbes close to returning too

So a few things... I'm no Robinson fan and he's not good but this feels like a bit of scape goat sitch to be pinning it all on him. Also, it's great to highlight your weaknesses and make necessary changes WHEN you have a viable alternative but wouldn't they have used that viable alternative if was already on the roster? Lol, I guess we'll fiind out. Last thing, why are we reading this from Mary Kay? This feels very old Browns. How about just make the switch if you need to and not throw a player under the bus publicly? I'm sure he's doing the best job he can even if it's not good enough. That kind of stuff shoots a hole in the bottom of your boat.

Mary Kay drives me nuts when she tells us what to think about a topic before providing the quote. Those quotes can be interpreted in different ways, but of course, the drama queen has to put the worst possible spin on it that there is.

Also, I am very tired of this false narrative that the OL is playing poorly. I knew it was coming, but it still irritates me.

She's always stirring up trouble.

Forbes can't come back until week eight. He's also a sixth round rookie from a small school. Not a great look.

Kendall Lamm has been at best average over the course of his career.

Is the team scapegoating Greg Robinson? His play has not been great but he's been fine. Really weird.

Our OL is a freaking Greek Tragedy.

AND the national media pretty much looks to her as the guiding narrative for the team. I often see her headlines almost verbatim in national headlines. She's got a click-bait agenda and the way she rakes the muck is frankly bad for the team. I felt like a lot of the needless off-season hype/noise in the national media was spewing from her. I can't stand her.

I'm not MKC fan (I literally have her blocked on Twitter so I don't see her nonsense) but this is the first line of the article, "Browns starting left tackle Greg Robinson has already been benched or is in serious jeopardy of it, a league source told cleveland.com on Wednesday." That's straight to the point.

Mary Kay Cabot doesn't work for the team. Her job is to get clicks. She's literally doing her job.

I dont know much about Lamm and didn’t pay attention much when he played, so I’m pretty ignorant. But week 8 isn’t that far away lol

Might be the Browns "astroturfing" in advance of a possibly unpopular trade for Williams (giving up a #1 and possibly more)?

Could be the case too

Right. I was just pointing out that it'd be weird to bench your starter, wait a week, then start a different guy.

If this story is true I think it'd be more likely that someone outside the organization replaces Greg Robinson. Moving Eric Kush to left tackle does not seem wise. I don't know enough about Wyatt Teller to speak on that.

Kendall Lamm was on the Texans his whole career before this year. He was a spot starter until last year when he almost got DeShaun Watson killed about a dozen times.

haha so Lamm seems like a very qualified candidate then

Honest question. Do you really not know which quotes I was speaking of or do you just want to fight w/me? I am hoping it is the former because I don't want to fight w/you, so I was speaking of the quotes from Dorsey and our OL coach. I will provide one of the quotes w/her evaluation given before the quote as an example of what I am talking about.



I think that quote can be interpreted in varying degrees of criticism. I am not positive that Dorsey "made it clear that he's not happy with Robinson."

I know how to freaking read. I have an advanced degree in English. I don't need some dumb-ass reporter to interpret quotes for me. Also, I am almost positive I know what she is up to. She is using language and semantics to convince her readers of something that may or may not be the truth.

I guarantee a lot of people are going to read that article and say things to their family, friends, colleagues, etc that "Dorsey said he is not happy w/Robinson."

Dorsey may not be happy w/Robinson, but that quote was manipulated by MKC.

Well, I certainly don't think this is the best OL we could put on the field, that's for damn sure. They may not be terrible, but they are far from great, middle of the road gets you nowhere, actually middle of the road gets you run over. lol

I still believe the Zeitler for Vernon trade is Dorsey's only real blunder, as Vernon has yet to produce as a pass rusher

All I can say, is that I'm sure Dorsey now has OL high on his list in the off season, either FA, or more likely, the draft.

Well put. I don’t think it’s necessarily a negative thing that he was quoted with that statement ... I mean, it’s pretty common sense. What’s he going to say: “He’s playing well!”

He said the same about Hubbard and our defense

I am not really defending Lamm because I don't know much about him, but Watson held the ball much too long and Bill O'Brien put his qb in some risky situations.

Vernon has not produced sacks. He has been pretty good.

My problem with the Zeitler trade isn't Olivier Vernon, it is that there were a bunch of veteran pass rushers available in free agency that we could have signed and kept Zeitler.

It boils down to Corbett. The team thought he could play. He couldn't.

Vernon may be good with run support, but Dorsey brought him in as a pass rusher, I'd gladly give Vernon back to the Giants for Zeitler. lol You are definitely right about Corbett, I hope Dorsey picks OL a bit better in the future.

Sorry for being cranky w/you. I was just irritated by MKC trying to manipulate her readers. I just have never been a fan of that type of writing.

I remember years ago, and I won't mention the qbs or the writer, but in the newspaper, the reporter would write things like "Blank led his team downfield for a TD. He fired a strike to blank on 2 and 10. He zipped a pass to blank for another first down." Etc, etc. When he would talk about the other qb, he would say things like "Blank threw up a prayer that was answered by a great catch by blank." Or, "Blank was aided by great playcalling and playing against an inferior defense." Etc, etc. I remember thinking his analysis was way off on the adjectives that he chose. It bothered me.

I get all the click bait thing of today, but I still feel that anyone who writes for public consumption has the responsibility of being honest and not trying to deceive others.

Anyway...........sorry for being cranky w/you.

Dorsey suggested a couple times that he wanted our OLine to play more consistent and he referenced Greg and Chris. Clearly, those who make the big decisions in the building think the OLine are not playing as well as they could or they would like.

Robinson and Hubbard are not highly ranked players. They were not when they became Browns and they are not now.

If you can improve a position you should do so; that is the job of a GM.

Our TE's have not very good either. Kush is what he is when he came here. He was expected to be a backup.

All that does not mean that the OL is trash. They have been inconsistent. They have made costly errors. Going forward the question becomes can they improve? Will they become better players?

I have no answer. My guess is neither will be with the team next year.

This year there may not be many alternatives?

The Trent Williams thing? Who knows? Washington is a ship with no rudder. They can't seem to do a thing right.

Dorsey will do what he can and that may end up being nothing.

In the meantime all the players need to play better. As Dorsey stated be more consistent. The team as a whole has focus on the details. Use proper technique. Don't commit penalties.

Do all the little things that add up to victory. That goes to Freddie, Baker, Odell, Jarvis, and every guy on the team. You win or lose as a team.

If this thing is going to get turned around everybody has to be better.

In the Baker thread, you said something about people assigning blame when things aren't going well, even though I made it clear that there was plenty of blame to go around. So, may I ask you why won't you assign any blame to Baker but have zero problem assigning blame to the OL?

I will also add this..........I wonder who has better analytical ratings? The OL or Baker?

You are a good friend of mine and I respect your football takes, but bro.........this stuff works both ways.

People say stuff like "you hate Baker," as a defense for him. How many people say things like "you hate Robinson," as a defense for him?

Sorry bro..............I just came from reading a post from sourpuss and I feel like one now. I'll be over it in a minute or two...

First I thought our oline played better against Seattle. I also feel they need help. I don't care much for anaylitics. Numbers can be manipulated many ways to prove a point. I prefer to trust my eyes.
I think our our play calling needs to improve. We have no offensive idenity. Our offensive schemes put pressure on the oline to play outside of their strengths.
Baker needs to be more decisive in his throws and make better decisions.
Inspite of all this Chubb has managed to play well.
I try not to read much of what MKC writes. She wants clicks and will manipulate words as much as anaylitcts people do numbers.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but are you claiming the analytical sites are purposely inflating our OL grades and decreasing Baker's?

No doubt. Everyone needs to improve their play.

Out of curiosity, I looked to see how PFF has graded our o-line and Baker overall to date. Clearly, there's room for improvement all the way around.

The Player Grading Scale:
100-90 Elite
89-85 Pro Bowler
84-70 Starter
69-60 Backup
59-0 Replaceable

2019 Baker Mayfield: 73.7
2019 Greg Robinson: 67.8
2019 Joel Bitonio: 81.3
2019 J.C. Tretter: 70.1
2019 Eric Kush: 48.0
2019 Chris Hubbard: 52.2


https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/baker-mayfield/46518
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/greg-robinson/8637
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/joel-bitonio/8670
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/eric-kush/7952
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/chris-hubbard/8051

Thanks for this information. I was wrong. Everything I had read previously was that the OL was being graded higher than Baker. But, this info contradicts that. Interesting...

Hey Milk, do you have access to our OL's pass blocking grades and then compare them to Baker's grades?

Browns roster PFF grades for week 6 only.....

Kush surprises me. I really didn't think he was playing that bad.

He's not. I know quite a bit about OL play and in my mind, Kush might be playing better than any of them. Including Bitonio. That's close, but the dude is playing very well. In my opinion.

I would still like to see the season grades on the OL and Baker. Last time I looked the OL was 3rd in positive blocking and Baker was 3rd from the bottom in terms of holding the ball.

I do not.

That's not what I am saying. I said I go by what I see on the field versus what analylitics show.
I thought the oline played well against Seattle while Baker was too inconsistant with his passes.
I also think with Baker struggling this year Freddie needs to rely more on our run game and less on Baker in empty backfield sets. At one point in the Seattle game with a nice lead we were throwing way too much with an erractic QB instead of relying on running the ball.
I feel giving Baker more play action throws will help both him and our oline.

Campen's a hard man.

1) I don't have any documentation or video to support this, but just from memory, it seems like the Browns are routinely lining a TE next to Robinson. I don't think his ranking reflects the amount of help he's getting.

2) With the same caveat, I feel like Hubbard is even worse.

3) I suspect that if they replace Robinson, they should at least consider moving him to RT to replace Hubbard.

Specifically stated that even though the tackles and Kush are not highly ranked that does not make the OL trash.

Also stated that everyone needs to be better starting with Freddie and Baker.

I have been very consistent in stating the blame lies not on a single person or player.

The games lost were not from one error but a combination of errors that snowballed.

A roster is 53 players. Not like basketball. Players get hurt others must step in and play. The quarterback is one player on offense. If an offensive player makes a mistake it affects the play. If a penalty occurs in a key moment it puts the team at a disadvantage. A guy misses a tackle and the result is a TD it is part of the team loss.

Baker has been inconsistent. So has other players on this team. That is part of the problem. It seems like players are taking turns. The result is inconsistent play.

I don't dislike Robinson, Kush or Hubbard they are what they are. Nothing special. Not good. Not horrible.

Baker needs to play better. I have pointed out his mistakes after every game.

But I don't believe he is trash or is "the problem". The team is 2-4 the blame lies on the team.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/10...nd-average.html

I posted this elsewhere as well - it's not season's grades, it is week 6 only for the offense. Kush and Robinson nearly the same grade. Hubbard worst graded individual on the line. Shocking is this comment: Bitonio was the only starter with a run-blocking grade over 50, which dragged down some grades. .... I wonder if the play calling/scheme may have had as much to do with some of our run struggles?

OFFENSIVE LINE
Joel Bitonio: 71.0.
Wyatt Teller: 60.0.
Greg Robinson: 59.9.
Eric Kush: 59.7.
Justin McCray: 59.3.
JC Tretter: 58.8.
Chris Hubbard: 49.8.

From the same article, just because we would never want to mislead other posters:

I guess the insinuation being that I am misleading people?
I disagree - I posted the link.

Pretty good??????

Vernon has been The Invisible Man. He has not been seen this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looking at that chart with the color codes for each starter, I’m surprised how poorly Ogunjobi has been

I still say we miss Bob Wylie

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryRectangularGoose-small.gif

I believe that's just for the game vs Seattle.

oh okay, I thought it was for the whole season

Well, apparently PFF does not take into considerations the Int's and also the time the QB holds on to the ball,or throwing into 2x and 3x coverage...

Also apparently does not account for the OL success in the running game...


That's the problem in massaging the numbers, at some point you are going to end up with something that nobody can identify or relate.

Overall I think OL has been good/average, while QB play has been abyssal.

j/c:

I think Dorsey should be considering this first:

Greg Robinson Chris Hubbard may be benched.

I think both OTs are being considered

PFF is very questionable in their ratings, IMHO.

In the Seattle game, where Adarius Taylor played 11 or 12 snaps with no tackles, his grade was within 1 point or so of Joe Schobert's grade for the game. In the previous game, (IIRC) they had Tayloe 20 points ahead of Schobert. (no tackles to 11 tackles, again, IIRC)

So take PFF with a grain of salt.

That could be quite a debate as to which should sit. Vitamin Pine helps sometimes. Really odd tackle play. Who else can we find to be of help? Robinson needs more feet IMO. I think trying to address this would be a priority in bye week.

If that MKC article was talking about Hubbard, I might be able to understand it. Robinson, while not at all perfect, is so far down the list of things that need to improve....

When vers pointed out that it was an MKC article, that explained everything.

That said, if Dorsey can land Williams for not too steep of a price, I would love it if we could slide Robinson over to RT and bump Hubbard into that first sub spot. It'll be rough on the oline cohesiveness for a little bit, but we'd be good as far as talent. RG, I think, will work itself out with stronger RT play.

j/c

Where there is smoke there is fire..or was fire. The OL play this year has been inconsistent...that's very obvious...Dorsey himself stated that BOTH OTs need to be more consistent.

I won't be surprised if Teller/McCray replace Kush/Hubbard next week...Dorsey traded for those guys for a reason. I would be surprised...but just a little...if Lamm - or someone not named Trent Williams - replaces Robinson.

When you are contemplating replacing 60% of the OL, you don't need to look at PFF or other such stats/ratings...you need to look at the tape. Which is exactly what I think they are doing.

j/c:

A couple of things.

--Does anyone remember what was said about things holding the Browns back right before or at the very beginning of last week's telecast? It was something that came from a Brown's insider and the first thing that was said was Greg Robinson was the biggest problem. I can't remember the other two things. One might have have been the huge number of missed tackles. I didn't let it soak in as well as I should have because all I could think about was how Freddie had previously said that he would fire anyone who spoke went to the media w/inside team information. I was thinking it was highly unusual for a team source to publicly criticize their players.

--A second thing is that I noticed that we lined up a TE or even two TEs on the Robinson's side during the game. Typically, teams are right handed and the TE or TEs line up beside the RT. That obviously isn't always the case, but we seemed to lining up our TE or TEs on the left side much more often than would typically be the case.

--Perhaps Robinson is going to be benched when you connect all the dots?

--I really don't know how good or bad Robinson has been, but I hope the Browns really know what they are doing if they bench him. Of all the units on a football team, none of them even come close to the OL when it comes to having continuity. It's so important for these guys to develop chemistry and cohesiveness. In the past, I have likened the OL to a synchronized swimming team or a chorus line. If you are going to make a big change, the bye week is the time to do it, but I think it's a desperate move.

I agree. Robinson may be mediocre, but he's by far the best option we have on the roster to play LT. Making a change there with less talent mid season would only be a disaster with anyone else we currently have on the roster. Trying to replace both Robinson and Hubbard with other players on the roster could be catastrophic. I don't know who this "source " is MKC has, but let's all hope they don't have a clue what's really going on.

If a guy currently on the roster takes Robinson's starting job I will be rather surprised.

Lamm didn't beat him out in TC...so did he improve since then?

McCray was new after TC, but I don't know about him playing LT. RT? Sure..but LT? I think McCray takes Hubbard's job with Teller next to him. Also, Kush is now the backup C with Corbett gone. If Teller is better physically - and I think he looks much more physical - and is "ready" mentally, now is the time to supplant Kush as a starter and let him (Kush) prepare to be the backup C/LG/RG.

My major concern is continuity. Blocking schemes can be learned on paper and you can execute that in a bubble. But where the continuity comes in is what the players around you do in those situations. The OL is a unit that must work in unison with each other. I don't believe you can learn that without playing in games with the OL as a unit.

I mean just give this some thought. When it comes to your DL, players rotate in and out. Sometimes certain situations cause you to change your DL line up. You rotate players in and out to give starters a breather and keep them fresh. But if you look at your OL, that doesn't happen. You may add an extra lineman ih jumbo packages such as a short and goal or short and third for extra run blocking, but all five of your OL starters play the entire game.

There's a reason for that. If you look at the Seattle game, you'll notice with the exception of Hubbard, all the performance numbers of the OL were greatly improved. That improvement came over time. It comes from the chemistry of your OL playing as a unit.

Now I'm not saying the OL is a great unit. They certainly aren't a highly rated OL and they do have their physical limitations. It's not like they can't be improved upon because they can. But the numbers indicate that as far as their ability will take them, they are becoming and performing better as a unit.

We had a new OL coach at the beginning of the season. With that comes changes. Those changes take time for the OL to learn to implement. The OL performance numbers from the Seattle game show they are beginning to be able to work together to implement those new changes.

It would seem counterproductive to me to try and make major changes just as the numbers indicate things are beginning to get better. The familiarity that these players have accomplished by playing together for the last six weeks and all of the pre season can not be duplicated over the bye week.

It just seems like a very flawed idea from my perspective other than maybe the possibility of Hubbard. His numbers indicate you wouldn't really lose much by replacing him. Even at that I wonder.

I agree with everything you posted there...and they MUST know those things as well. If they are even thinking about changing more than one position, they are acknowledging that the OL is under-performing.

I think Teller and McCray/Forbes were the preferred duo since TC ended...but they didn't know the system or even where is the bathroom.

Kush is a career backup...Hubbard is probably a Guard and has been pretty bad. I don't think changing both of those guys together and at the same time is out of the question.

My thoughts on replacing all these people is who is going to replace them?

Replacing spoiled whole milk with spoiled skim milk isn't any good.

I guess at this point we'll just have to see how it all plays out.

I'm still not convinced that MKC's "source" even knows what they're talking about. lol

I was looking at an article that went over trade compensation for a player like Trent Williams.

All things considered age, performance, injury, etc.to net it out:

A second rounder, maybe a fifth or close and a player (not a first stringer) (someone like a backup corner or lb).

Of course Washington has to make the move. They are in control.

Ideally Hubbard would go to backup and Robinson would move to RT.

Williams is 31. He is a very good player. Injury? Everybody gets hurt at some point. Injuries just happen.

He may have four good years left?

He is an experienced player who should be able to step in and adjust quickly. The big question is what kind of shape is he in?

There maybe others who we are unaware of that could be targets?

Freddie his coaches and Dorsey see way more than we do.

We shall see how this turns out.

She calls me a few times a week, so she has the inside scoop my friend.

What does she call you?

Sir.

She has manners. She sure isn't calling me baby.

Hopefully you'll get your wish and that will change.

I think that Forbes would be our RG if he hadn't gotten hurt. I think that there's a chance he becomes our RG if he is physically able to return after week 8. (and I believe that he will be activated if healthy)

I think that Njoku could be the other to return. He opted not to have surgery on his wrist so he could potentially return after week 8.

If these 2 return, it could be a big pick me up for 2 of our more troubled units. (blocking and receiving)

Speculation on my part but it would not be a surprise to me that Njoku is trade bait.

I am kind of expecting a deal before deadline. Njoku, Avery, maybe a corner all in play.

Putting my tinfoil hat on, maybe there was a reason Higgins didn't play a snap on Sunday.

Cordy Glenn is feuding with the Bengals over treatment for his concussion and has requested they release him. Too bad we never trade with Cincy (except for when we do and the fax machine "misfires").

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/cordy...for-concussion/

I have read Eifert could be a target.

As well as OJ Howard of the Bucs.

Eifert? Really? That is a surprise to me. Heard any price tag? Williams may price himself out of Dorseyland.

This is why I love Dorsey.

He knows the other team he calls is gonna leak the story to the media, so he calls every team and now we have no idea who we're targeting. Smart.

Eifert played 14 games over the past 3 seasons. He has played 6 this year, so he is about due for a season ending injury. I am not hoping for this, but the odds are against him finishing this season.

How about Cordy Glenn (OT from Cincy) ... rumors are he asked for release

Yeah, I know. I posted it 4 posts above yours. Good grief.

my bad, i only saw the one about Eifert

Peenie ....

*LOL* .... sorry bro ... i couldn’t resist, the door was just too wide open my friend ...

Just stuff floating around.

No price tag. Besides there maybe a problem doing business with the Bengals. Somehow I think Mr. Brown may have made a promise to his father.

The Browns may or may not be in the market for a TE.

Njoku is out till week 12 at least.

This whole Trent Williams thing is starting to sound like Orlando Pace.

My thoughts exactly.

I don't know if it's just me but it's not great that we don't know who our left tackle is halfway into the season. Again, maybe it's just me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: When you are contemplating in-season upgrades at 3/5 of your OL unit - using players already on your roster - you are acknowledging that their play is less-than-desired...if not unacceptable.

If only someone could have known Greg Robinson was not good before the season started (or before we re-signed him).

One of the most alarming things is that it doesn't seem like Greg Robinson and the offensive line is among the top five things that need to be fixed.

My guess is that taking reps away reps from Robinson during practice is a way to send him a message that he needs to be better. I expect him to be the starter against the Patriots.

If I thought that were true I too would be concerned. But I don't believe it is. A rumor posted on the Twitterverse doesn't make it so. McCray worked at other positions as well and then the only actual comment was he could help if summoned to start. Twitter is often times no more than an unsubstantiated rumor mill.

There is nobody on this roster more qualified to start at LT than Robinson. That may not be a comforting thought but it's true none the less.

Jc

Changing up OL positions halfway through the year is less than ideal ... we must think that Robinson and Hubbard have been very bad

I agree. The OL could be better, but there are other areas of the team that are performing worse than the line.

I am still miffed about a person in our organization providing information to the crew of our nationally televised game that Greg Robinson was the number one reason we are not winning. Who was this person? I hope it wasn't our GM, HC, or another player who likes to speak his mind.

It's almost if this is setting up the line to be a scapegoat. If that's true, this team has big problems moving forward.

I don't know, Pit. I'm getting the feeling that there is truth to these rumors. I don't think the OL has been the problem, but I do think the Browns are considering making changes. Just too many dots are connecting.

Now, I could be wrong and you could be right. Just throwing my opinion out there.

I have no real idea. I just know trying to replace Robinson with anyone currently on our roster would be stupid. My opinion is based on the hope they aren't stupid.

That and none of the rumors can actually be substantiated.

This OL is like changing deck chairs on the Titanic.

They are all pretty much the same with different names minus Bitonio and Tretter.

I agree, I am not a big Greg fan, and we may need better talent there if we want to compete for a title moving forward, but that talent is just not on this team at this time and he is our best option. Doesn't mean its a good option, but our best, IMO.

I think the staff is trying to send a message he needs to shape up and play better. I would side on betting he starts against NE.

ahh

Well regardless of who starts at LT this week, it's always smart to give players some reps at different positions...as we learned week one.

I can’t believe I read 10 pages of comments and no one mentioned the quote in the article that Gregg Robinson said the Vaccaro kick was “inadvertent”.

For shame Dawgs. For shame

Good point.

Maybe he meant he inadvertently kicked him with one foot -- he was really trying to kick him with both feet.

From everything I've read there will most likely be some changes to one of the three spots that have been mentioned, but they are not willing to replace all three. At the most I would guess they experiment with some changes on the right side. As Pit mentioned earlier in the thread, there isn't a better replacement for Robinson currently on the team.

The team still has issues that need to be addressed before we are ready to be a legitimate SB contender, and it isn't going to happen until the off season. My personal opinion is that while the OTs haven't been great it really hasn't been that bad. Personally, I think our DL has been way more of an issue as the DTs are getting very little push, and we still lack serious depth in that area.

I was always hoping to just sneak into the playoffs this year so the guys can get that experience. I still think that's a possibility but we obviously have to be more consistent and disciplined.

We can blame the OL or DL, bro............but in my opinion--and this is no knock on your opinion--but I think Baker, Freddie, and team chemistry have been our three biggest issues.

With that said, both guys and the chemistry can improve and the season will be righted, but as of right now......they are the biggest issues.

I don't disagree with that. Again, I didn't have the same SB expectations that some have had so I am not all that surprised with growing pains from Freddie and Mayfield....I expected them.

I don't know how much you watched of Watson last year, but he really struggled the 1st half of the year as Defenses started giving him different looks post snap. Again, my opinion, but Baker is going through this right now. I just hope he grows and figures it out like DW did. Freddie is a 1st year HC and he should get better (I hope). The decision to not play any starters in pre season was puzzling, and I think that has hurt us this year. The discipline and play calling at times have been lacking as well.

Like I said we have a lot of areas to improve to be even close to a SB team. Some of those improvements have to come from guys already in house (Baker and Freddie as you mentioned) and some of it has to come with additional personnel provided in the off-season.

I just want to sneak into the Playoffs this year so these guys get a taste of that, because it will help us when we are ready.

Of course if Baker/Freddie aren't the answer we are probably light years away from that anyway.

I've been pretty negative about our OL, I think they've been a major problem and hindering our ability to allow slow developing plays to, well, develop but I think making major changes, unless there's a clear upgrade, is playing with fire. We can manage around the problem for the remainder of the season with quick outs, play action and leaning on the running game.

If they come out after the bye with a significantly retooled OL and they lay a major egg against New England's D (VERY real possibility in the best of scenarios) then what? Go back? This feels very old Browns. Very scape goaty and not just everyone hunkering down and pulling together. I've had doubts about Kitchens from the beginning, this adds major fuel to that fire. My only hope is that this is all head games for the hoodie. We come out next week with the same OL and run no huddle all game.

Playing with fire indicates that there's a chance for success... and therefore is the wrong phrase for juggling our Oline midseason (assuming there's no TWilliams (or equivalent) trade).

A coach once told me that the offensive line was the most important unit on a football team...he was right, too.

At the time that coach informed me of his O-line beliefs, I'm not sure I believed him...me being a HS sophomore and him being a first time HC.

At that time, I loved playing LB and had this coach told me that LBers were the most important unit on the football field, I would have had no problem believing the coach.

What would he have to say about this group, this season, at this time. I think some of this OL has to change. Just have mixed feelings about Robinson.

Many are claiming that the Oline is horrible, I don't think it is that bad. Some blame Baker for holding the ball. I agree he does at times, but some times he is holding it due to the fact that they are getting to him or very close very quickly.

All these different NFL sites show that him and Hubbard struggle and rate very low. Some like to blame the tough defenses we play as a semi excuse.

My point is most are correct, even if their thinking is different. When I watch the games, to my casual eye, it appears that the run blocking is okay, but pass blocking is struggling. I understand all the talk about throwing in 2.5 seconds or less, and agree many QBs hold the ball longer than that. Also these times are averages. One broken play or two with a scramble involved can skew the average. But to me, Robinson seems to not give full effort consistently. Almost that once he gets beaten, he dwells on that and his game suffers.

In the end, we need two tackles that are dependable to achieve reaching the hype this offense got pre-season. Baker needs to hold up his game too. He is playing like he did before Robinson was inserted. I think he lacks trust in the line and that is skewing his thinking.

Both our tackles are back up quality IMO.

Bard...not knowing the entire story about how this Oline is working together (or not), we have to try to read between the lines.

Playing Oline is more about playing with "your head" than it is about playing with "your muscle". Said another way and more bluntly, the L-OT and R-OT of our offense made the line calls and had to be able to read defenses and make the best blocking call for the situation. The entire Oline had to know what was going on and what type of block was to be used on every play.

In the Pros, I believe it's the OG who makes the line calls along with the center. I can't say for sure that the OTs make a line call but OLine blocking can be complex and each lineman must have their head in the game and understand line calls and who they are supposed to be blocking with each line call. One OLineman misses a line call and it can screw up the entire blocking scheme.

Once everyone on the OLine knows the Line calls and who they are supposed to block, the offense clicks and is productive, the game from an OLinemans POV becomes fun.

Watching the Browns OLine, they look confused and out of sync. Judging by the production of the OLine, it confirms their are problems on the OLine, especially on the left side. Without knowing the offense, I can not tell who is responsible for the OLine issues...I can only guess!

Also, the Browns have two new OLine coaches, both from the Packers. Campen had been very successful as the Packers OLine coach. Credited with the following from his Browns bio...

...In nine of Campen’s 11 seasons as offensive line coach, the Packers ranked top 10 in the league in scoring and finished in the top 10 in total offense in eight of those 11 seasons.  Campen helped six Packers offensive linemen earn Pro Bowl recognition since 2010, the only team in the league to have six different members of the offensive line selected over that span.

Campen has an understudy who came over from Green Bay, helping him with the Oline named Blasko

I've watched the Packers Oline over the past few years and it may be that the Browns do not have the type of Olinemen that Campen prefers. It may be that the Browns need to place a higher priority in the draft to add the type of OLinemen Campen prefers.

Some members of the Browns present OLine group may not fit the blocking scheme Campen is attempting to run.

jmho...mac

j/c:

Opinions are cool, but man, there is so much misinformation on this thread.

j/c

Even though the O Line has been statistically OK, I think the reason why they developed the reputation over the first several weeks of being such a weak link is because those OK statistics weren't equating to the eye test so to speak. Early on too often someone was breaking through the line or pushing one of our guys back hard. Baker had happy feet which partially was on him for being too jumpy, but I think enough of that happy feet was justified. Whenever there was pressure on Baker it wasn't coming from a consistent area.

Right or Left, neither side was playing consistent. If it wasn't Hubbard getting beat, it was Robinson. If the Tackles were fine, then it was a G not holding their own.

It appears we maybe on a slight upward trajectory with the O line now. I'm not a stat monkey, but I would be curious to see the individual O Line stats from early on that cover who was giving up sacks, hits, and pressures.

The fact we are benching lineman is just a scapegoat.

Our OL is giving about 3.5 secs per pass play which ranks them very high, this is more time that Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers has been getting. The problem is our QB not throwing the ball and holding on to it too long.

I know I get it, Greg Robinson or whoever else isn’t the 1st pick in the draft, but it’s BS one or more of these guys are going to lose their spot because someone won’t do his and holds on to the ball or run into sacks. It’s not right! That not how things should be done. Bellichik would have benched Mayfield already, not punishing his OL that is actually not doing too bad a job especially in the run game...but it’s Cleveland it’s expected.

More misinformation. Rodgers is one of the two guys who holds the ball longer than Baker. I will add that that stat was before this past Sunday's games. I posted the link about who holds it the longest in the Baker thread. Cousins held it the longest. Followed by Rodgers. Baker was tied for third longest.

Also, I have posted the blocking charts for what is considered a win in the NFL. The time limit is 2.5 w/out giving up any pressure. At the time I posted that info, the Browns were third best in the league.

I think it's getting harder and harder to spread misinformation because there is so much more information available to us these days. Of course, the three guys who post most of that information on this board are not currently posting the available information about holding the ball, positive pass protection, and many other related offensive stats. I have no idea why they are remaining mute. LOL

Being mentioned now according to rotoworld that Nate Solder is being linked to the Browns...another guy up there in years who isn't very good and has a large cap number...imho I dont know how much of a help he is...I know he will certainly strain the cap

Solder’s been awful thus far, so I’d say no thanks

It's only one play, but damn.

Wow ... how good was Tretter on that play ... dang ...

It was only one play, but of course that is what gets highlighted. No mention of the OL giving up zero sacks and only 8 pressures in the the Seattle game, though.

jc...

I do not put alot of stock in charts and analytics to prove how good or bad the Browns OLine and QB are playing ...

There is a higher standard that some OL coaches use when judging their offensive linemen. James Campen, the Brown's OL coach has a higher standard and I'm a believer in the standard Campen uses to judge his OLineman's performance...

Campen doesn’t buy into 'the QB holding the ball too long theory' when it comes to linemen..below is from Dave's first post in this thread...

“If we’re going by stopwatch, you’re asking the wrong person,’’ he said. “Because I don’t believe in stopwatches, I think it’s a bunch of hogwash. I think you protect as long as it takes him to throw the damn ball. End of discussion. Period. You block until as much time as he needs to throw the ball. I’ve always believed that and I will not stop teaching that.’’


IMO, some of the Browns OLinemen are not performing to expectations...hopefully they will improve their play.

You took that out of context. He is just demanding more from his players. Of course, he should not have gone public w/it. I do like how you used that quote to pretend that holding the ball too long is not an issue, though. LOL

I'm with you on this one.

That said... a lineman shoulder-checking a rushing defensive end? Is that actually a thing in football? That's pretty bad. I don't agree, but if someone's opinion is that the line is bad, and this clip is out there.... I've seen worse arguments, is all I'm saying.


I haven't seen any real, actual evidence that any of our linemen are getting benched. We've seen guys rotate through the starting 5 during our off week. That's not newsworthy. We've heard a coach basically saying that his guys need to get better, and they're not accepting excuses. That's borderline newsworthy. It boils my blood that MKC still has the ability to stir up this kind of crap.

Switching gears... the only way I could possibly rationalize the coaching staff wanting to swap up linemen goes back to the offensive scheme. They're still in love with the long-bomb offense, which does mean they'll need a stouter oline (and that's not even getting into the fact we have a 2nd year QB back there executing it for them). 2.5 seconds is great and all, but that scheme, on average, will require more. I would hope, if this even is the case, that they quickly realize that that guy isn't on the roster (and if he was, he'd be playing already).

followed by:



As to the topic of the OL ... I said earlier in the season I didn't think they were as bad as some were making out. Baker hasn't helped. Likewise - I think the 'eye test' shows the line is probably not performing as well as the analytics may be making them appear if the analytics is telling us that Baker has at least 2.5 seconds to throw on each/most plays. As someone else mentioned - QB's that can routinely extend plays (Ben, Rogers etc) are going to skew the stats. I don't think Baker's in that bracket - and he's "extended plays" this year by running when he didn't need to ... but there is a whole lot going on that "2.5 seconds" doesn't reflect or show.

j/c:

I've said this before and I will say it again. It's not good for a team when one person is constantly put above the entire team and others are shouldering the blame for that player's problems.

No Vers, you took Campen's comment out of context in an attempt to use it in "your agenda"!

I recognize when you are trying to push the theme that it's "Baker's fault" that the OLine has penalties because you believe Baker holds the ball too long. That is nothing but BS.

Campen is 100% correct, expecting the Brown's OLine to hold their blocks as long as it takes for Mayfield to find an open receiver and to complete the pass.

Should a coach expect just average or below average from his OLine? NO, a good coach expects the best and he pushes his players to deliver whatever it takes.

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

You don't field bookend OT's with average at best skill sets and ask them to do what they're not capable of doing. You play and run schemes within the talent you have to work with.

Robinson is not Trent Williams. Hubbard is even weaker. It's fine to say what you think an OT should be able to do. It's yet another thing to scheme around an OT tackle to be able to do that when he doesn't have the skill set to accomplish that. You set your scheme up to use the talent you have. Not expect your talent to run a scheme they're not suited for.

If Campen actually believes he has the talent to accomplish this, it sounds like he's part of the problem. No OL can just block defenders forever.

Bill Buckner agrees.

Oh really...silly?

A coach expecting more from his players is silly?

You admit that the Browns OTs are not playing well then you proclaim that it is silly for Campen to expect Robinson and Hubbard to improve their play....that makes zero sense.

A good coach always expects more from their players and when those players max out and it's still not good enough, you move on.

Unrealistic expectations are closer to a dream than a reality. Maybe we should expect him to work with the talent he's been given to make the best of what he has to work with rather than to expect things humans can't do. NO OL player can just hold blocks forever. That's just silly.

Kitchens said he will wait until Sunday to reveal who is starting on the O-Line, wouldn't say whether or not they are going to make any changes. "I've never said anything about possible changes"

https://twitter.com/FredGreetham/status/1187017468507803648

Word. The OLine played a damn-near stellar game against the 'Hawks. They played as a cohesive unit. FWIW, making light of that play shows Robinson getting destroyed... But also shows why our OLine played so great last week.

As far as the stopwatch thing, it's not a players job to block for a certain amount of time, it's his job to protect the QB. That quote is exactly what should come out of a coaches mouth.

I have zero problems w/the OL coach having that type of mindset. I would also have zero problems if the QB coach, OC, or HC told the qb "I don't care if you are getting pressured early. I'm not interested in stopwatches. Get rid of the ball quicker and make better reads."

It works both ways. That is why I said mac took it out of context. Of course, the position coach is going to demand more from his unit.

With all of that said, I do think the OL did a nice job against Seattle. I also think that Baker did a much better job in the pocket and he did get a good job of getting rid of the ball quicker. There are going to be times when you have to scramble around and that effects the average time to throw, but for the most part, I think the ball came out quicker. That's progress.

Couldn't agree more on the "goes both ways" attitude. Funny thing is, this bs is all driven by us (the fans) and the media. Very little chance Baker is whining about not having enough time or the OLine is whining about him being too hard to protect. This is a narrative created by people who watch the game, not those who participate.

Unless Robinson is whining, that may, in fact, be the reason for this thread in the first place.

I doubt that either Baker or Robinson are whining. I'm not there and do not know for sure, but I don't either the OL or Baker is so drastically worse than the other. It's kind of hard to point fingers in a locker room when you have issues of your own.

I will say that unless Freddie thinks it gives him a competitive advantage on Sunday, his handling of this topic is pretty lame. He's waiting to Sunday to announce who is starting on the OL and then says he never said anyone is being benched. Those two comments don't jibe and come across as weird.

I'll play Devil's Advocate... Kitchens doesn't give one whoopty hell what you, I or the media thinks. He's called one or more players out and has let them know their status on Sunday is based on their practice and participation during the week and leading up to the game.

Fate...nothing like a dose of reality and you are right..Freddie nor any of the Browns coaches give a crap about the opinions stated here.

Wait...what!?!?
I demand to be heard!!

Gee mac, I never once said or even insinuated that he cares what we think. But, I'm not sure what the problem w/me expressing my opinion since this is a public message board and I was talking about the Browns and did not insult any other poster.

And btw mac.............do you remember when you were on the FO kick and were criticizing Sashi multiple times per day? Do you remember all the folks that were attacking you daily? Do you remember the one dude who actually stood up for you and said you had a right to express your opinion even if I didn't personally agree w/that said opinion? And mac, here is a little tidbit, most of those folks who were destroying your character are the same ones coming after me now. I'm not including Fate in that group because I don't remember him getting on your case. Maybe you can remember all of this the next time you want to call my takes BS or put words into my mouth? Then again, maybe not?

Maybe we could all talk about Browns football without it being intended or taken personally?

NAH!!!

j/c:

There has been a lot of talk about how bad the OL has been and how Baker's stats about holding the ball are hurt because the line gives up such quick pressure and he is forced to bail early. My eyes tell me that that is incorrect. Here is an article that ranks individual and team pass rush and pass pro win rates. I highlighted the Browns rankings.

I will add this information to other threads where people are discussing the OL and our QB.

Our OL has not been bad ... our OT’s have been bad. Kush hasn’t even been bad compared to what ppl think.

Our big problems on O: Baker sucks, our coaching sucks, and our OTs suck

Not sure if you meant to put those sucking in order. The only thing I could want to argue is flipping coaching and Baker.

yeah, it was more of a stream of consciousness than a list haha i agree

OUR OL has not been the main problem. They are doing a good job.

Freddie seems to be backtracking on who he is going to put out there because the tackles who are starting are the best option.

Our play call selections compared to where the QB has been going has been a huge problem.


Freddie should be calling more plays holding the RB back to give Baker more time to throw
or
Freddie should be calling shorter pass plays so that Baker has to keep things close (within 15 yards) and in front of him.

Brother I agree with you that some of the play calling is Questionable at times, but I love the Browns have for 55+ years and I see through Orange colored glasses a lot but I have to say the line (Pass Blocking) has been bad, now they Run Blocking pretty well but that doesn't help Baker ... JMHO

The only reason why Kush has not given up 5-6 sacks already is because Baker is adapt at avoiding the rush IN HIS FACE.

Now turn that around and put him on Bakers blind side and it would paint a much different picture. Even so his pass blocking has been exceptable to the team (thanks to Bakers feet), but his run blocking is just short of terrible. He can't seem to stay on his feet. The same for Hubbard.

Heard a radio interview with a long-time well respected oline coach. Don't remember his name, and he is retired, so take this for what it's worth.

He commented that Baker's dropbacks are too deep. Especially out if the shotgun.

For reference, the interview aired several weeks ago

Yeah, I read something about Baker's drops. It's about depth when you are dropping. OTs are taught to make the edge rusher take a certain path. If the QB isn't not precise in his drops and gets too deep, that puts him right in the path of the rusher. The one I saw was about Baker's back foot being in that path.

Btw.......everyone has their opinions and I know Kush's grades have not been great, but he has looked good to me. I don't agree that Baker is making the OL look better. I think the reverse is more true than that take and the analytics which have been posted bear that out.

So...we should not believe the analytics for Kush...and just use our eyes. While simultaneously we should believe the analytics for the OL and not just use our eyes.

I'm going to go with my eyes on both counts and I can easily see that the OL play has been unacceptable. What bears that out is all the smoke surrounding the potential trade for TW and the talk about changes at RG & RT. When you are eyeing changes along 60% of a unit, that unit is under-performing.

It is apparent the team thinks so with talk of moving people around.

I think the Oline has been ok-to-good, but just not good enough for our situation. That situation, specifically, is a 2nd year QB that is struggling, and a 1st-year head coach that apparently thought he could do no wrong in constructing an offense from scratch after he had something that worked.

Saying that the Oline, as it is, isn't going to work for this team is not saying that they're to blame for where we are right now.

That is how you can rationalize not blaming the Oline while simultaneously looking to upgrade said personnel.

To me, the only reliable players so far have been Bitonio and Tretter. The others have been inconsistent at best.

The worst by a decent margin has been Hubbard in my opinion, followed by Kush, then Robinson. I find it suprising that Robinson's name was leaked as the first to be replaced.

Baker may be part of the problem but let's face it, we need an upgrade at the OT positions. There's no way around it. We thought back in TC that this could be a problem and it has become one plain and simple.

agreed. If we draft or acquire adequate OTs and Baker still struggles, then we have a bigger issue it seems

Basically comes down to Dorsey. If fans trust him and he thinks the issue is the Oline, then we will see changes. I doubt he makes changes on the oline if thinks baker is the issue

Head coach Freddie Kitchens declined to answer ? about the offensive line and possible changes, joked "I promise we'll have 2 tackles, 2 guards and a center"

I have stated the same thing since OTA's.

Robinson was signed to a one year deal. There is a thought process there. Show me.

I doubt Dorsey thought Robinson was a long term fix.

Hubbard. His history is there for anyone to look up. He was never a starter at Pittsburgh.

Dorsey could not make all the changes he may have wanted because it is impossible in that short of time.

Hubbard and Robinson are not horrible. They are what they are. Their resume is pretty clear.

Kush was brought in to add depth. He is a serviceable guard but is best suited as a backup.

That is reality. That doesn't mean we can not win with them. They are not the worst in the league.

All it means is if we can improve a position with a better player and the cost is fair. We should.

That is what Dorsey is trying to do. That is why trades have already been made.

(Goes to look up the Vegas Line)

Well if people thought it was a mess before, stay tuned.

At least everyone is in the same page.

McCray at LT is not giving me much hope.

Seriously. What a mess.

unless McCray is a clear upgrade i don't see this being positive.. has a sense of desperation from FK and FO that they are scrambling to make up for the idiotic move of not addressing the Oline in offseason and actually making it weaker. McCray doesn't have a stellar resume...his resume is borderline practice squad. Only thing that he has going for him is Campen's blocking scheme

j/c:



I don't know why Dorsey would tell him. This news should come from the HC.

Not an inspiring turn of events

I'm going to hang my hopes on Dorsey has landed a trade.

https://sports.yahoo.com/greg-robinson-says-benched-browns-172239098.html

Browns head coach Freddie Kitchens said this week that he wasn’t ready to talk about any potential changes to the starting offensive line and suggested everyone would have to wait and see how they line up against the Patriots on Sunday.

One of his offensive lineman appears to have let the cat out of the bag, however.

Greg Robinson told reporters on Friday that he has been benched as the team’s starting left tackle. Robinson took over the job right around this time last year when the Browns made changes in the wake of firing head coach Hue Jackson and offensive coordinator Todd Haley.

Robinson did not say who will be taking his spot in the lineup. Justin McCray was getting work at left tackle this week and seems the likeliest choice to be in the lineup against New England.

Yes, I'm replying to and quoting my own post.

Even if Dorsey closes a trade in the next 5 minutes, that tackle probably wouldn't be playing in our Sunday afternoon game? Right?

So our "magic solution" for our "LT problem" was actually on our roster the whole time? Wow...

(heavy sarcasm)

Even if he did, which he didn’t, the player would not play because it’s the Friday before a game on Sunday.

That's my guess...otherwise, Dorsey shouldn't be the one announcing this...actually...he shouldn't be announcing this in any event.

Is this an example of a leak...that would get GR waived?

Why can’t anything ever be easy?

Dorsey didn't announce it, Robinson did. Its also not a leak, he blatantly went to the media to announce it. No leak, he straight up peed in the face of the team.

Dorsey is the one who told Robinson. Why would a GM do that?

IDK, but from what I read and how I read it was that robinson came out, and said Dorsey told him he was benched.

I don't care about Dorsey telling Robinson at all. Maybe they have a good relationship, maybe this is the arrangement within the team when something like this happens. We just don’t have enough information.

What I don’t like is Greg Robinson telling the media about the move as soon as he finds out. I think it is stupid and inconsequential that Kitchens didn’t want to announce the starting linemen until Sunday but he’s the head coach. He gets to decide the rules. Robinson basically gave him a middle finger.

It is utterly impossible for the Browns to go without drama every single year.

GM tells u that u are being benched it usually comes with you are being shopped.

Dorsey told Robinson he was benched.

makes me wonder if Dorsey is sick of Freddie already




Freddie needs to stop trying to control things he has no control over.

it also makes me wonder if Dorsey didn't like the way Freddie was treating Robinson.

Dorsey is a standup guy and a straight shooter. He doesn't like messing with staff or players.

Perhaps Robinson may be going to another team in a trade of players?

I dunno anymore.

If Robinson doesn't get traded, it will be pretty clear (to me) that Dorsey doesn't like the way his players are being treated by Freddie and Dorsey told Robinson.

Either that...
or...
worse...
Freddie is too much of a wimp to tell another man to his face that Freddie benched him. (I really hope this is not the case)

Super...lose the agenda...!

Dorsey and Freddie are working together to find the best solutions for team. This idea that Dorsey is upset with the way Fred is treating "his players" is nothing more than something you manufactured in your head.

Freddie and Dorsey are on the same page!

Players get told things in house that are not being told to the general public all the time.

Freddie isn't a wimp either ..... just to clarify. Look at last year when he, on occasion, had to remove a layer or 3 off Baker's head on the sidelines. If he'd do that when he was hoping for the job, I doubt that he would back off once he got the job.

One more ..... I would guess, and this is only a guess ..... but I would guess that Robinson is unhappy about being benched, and is playing the game to try and get traded/released, so he can try to find another starting job elsewhere.

a lot guys piling on Freddie all of sudden.....

a lot of assumptions on those pile ons too.... slow your roll fella, you don't know jack.

1. How in the heck does someone get Freddie is treating players badly based off of this?!?!? What the heck kind of special juice are you drinking? Please explain how you have come to that conclusion?

2.How the heck does this mean Dorsey is sick of Freddie? lol.



CFRS - I don't mind kitchens playing dumb about whos playing. A lot of coaches do things like that. Its makes the pats prepare for multiple people at LT, it could alter their gameplan, or at the very least - make them take SOME focus on two guys instead of one to study. Im perfectly ok with that. BB is the king at things like that.

I just hope Freddie didn't find out from Robinson ... *L* ...

Dang ... not sure why KJ would tell him ...

I know KJ is a pro but damm I’m getting that “factory of sadness” feeling around this team ... this entire debacle was handled pee poorly from the start ... we should have found out Sunday afternoon as NOTHING that has gone on since this started last week should have made it into the public ...

After this week we best string some W’s together or C-towns gonna implode ..

JC

I don't know why JD told him but it's rather safe to assume that maybe Robinson asked.

Practice is over, Kitchens informs Dorsey of decision, Robinson sees them talking, coach goes to talk to media, Robinson asks Dorsey, Dorsey doesn't know this was still a secret or forgets to tell Robinson to zip his lip.

Not enough conspiracy for a good "sky is falling" conversation on Dawgtalkers, but entirely possible.

Replaced with: Dorsey replies, that is coaches' decision and if he is ready to make it after his PC, I'm guessing you'll be the first person to know.

That's how I would handle it.

But how does, "how you would handle it" really make any difference?

That makes sense if you're talking about 2 different starting QBs, or if a heavily-used RB is good to go or not.

It doesn't make sense if you're talking about starting a mediocre LT, or his backup (that couldn't beat him out during TC). There's no advantage to be had there.

Given the limited info we have, I would tend to agree. Definitely not enough info to conclude that Dorsey doesn't respect Kitchens, or Kitchens is a wimp, or any of the five other conspiracy theories though.

McCray was acquired at the roster cut-down. While he was not here for camp, our OL coach is very familiar with him. The bye is an appropriate time to make such a change.

Says you. I think theres always an advantage to be had when it comes to information. Any little piece of information (or lack thereof in this case) helps. Not knowing can effect a gameplan.
It may not be as big of deal as a whos playing QB, but you can bet your tootie that BB has studied each player on the line inside and out. Maybe he has spend a few extra hours, or maybe he has to split time now studying two different guys.

The reason BB is BB, is little details he knows and goes over that others do not.

This is one of those details.

It also makes sense that part of this may be an aggravated coach, dealing with a media that has just blown up a Jarvis Landry NON-story, has decided the media will be on a "need to know" basis going forward.

Bingo.

Robinson going rogue is much more worrisome to me.

Going rogue?

It's a funny thing around here. It's not about stupid things being said to the media, but who it is saying stupid things.

Going rogue meaning the coach didn't want to announce anything until Sunday (or at least implied he didn't want anyone to know until Sunday). I guess it's possible that Greg Robinson didn't know what Kitchens wanted.

Either way. I don't think this amounts to much. The more interesting story to me is that we just benched our starting left tackle halfway into the season for a guy who has barely played in the NFL and when he did play he didn't play left tackle. I think that says a lot about what the team thinks of Greg Robinson.

I think it indicates they were looking for a scapegoat and are making a desperation move that will make things even worse. Most everyone knows Hubbard is the worst player on the OL and Robinson, while certainly not a great LT wasn't the weakest link.

Funny how the real story-at-hand gets buried beneath layers of meaningless banter about dysfunction.

That said, Robinson didn't really sound like a problem-child. The tone of his statement was "I gotta do better". Why he chose to divulge to the media? Don't really know so I won't try to connect a bunch of dots that aren't on the paper.

I would hope that the team isn't interested in scapegoating a player that is not actually the problem. If a person believes the team is benching for reasons other than his performance then that is alarming. At this point we are trying to win games, if we are benching guys for any other reason besides performance then the people in charge need to check themselves.



The people that know most about the team say that Robinson is the weakest link. That's why he's been benched. I'll leave the conspiracies about scapegoats to others.

The proof may or may not be in the pudding come Sunday. Scapegoat is a stretch, this isn't a soap opera, there's obviously something about his play and preparation they're not happy with.

The OL performance against Seattle was about the best of the year, imo, nothing glaring to even complain about as a unit.

This could be a simple as a coaching staff using a two week break to identify and address weaknesses... And maybe seeing things they feel that GR either can't, or is not working hard enough to fix.

It could also be Robinson is a possible trade piece and they're not willing to risk injury.

J/c

INFORMATION is the key to life ... the more u have the better odds u have of making a correct decision ... the more correct decisions u make the better your life will be ... its not that hard of a concept to understand yet many never think about it or realize it ...

Same concept holds true here .... ooob is right that when the decision is regarding a QB its “more important” than weather were starting GRob or a different bum ... but it is still HUGE info to have ... every player has his tendencies and strengths and weaknesses ... and football is all about winning one on one match ups ... u bet your ass the dude lining up across from GRob or McCray would love to know so he can study one players tendancies as opposed to the other ....

Same with the DC ... how does GRob react to stunts, bull rushes or how good is he at passing a player off ... who is playing the position could alter a part of the game plan (highly doubtful) but it could alter blitz packages and how u attack that position ... it will certainly make a difference in the prep of the player lining up across from the LT ...

INFORMATION is HUGE ... and in an nfl football game that may be dived by a last second score every bit of info u had to get u to that point is HUGE!!!

At this point I believe the proof will be in the pudding. All we have to do is watch the LT position moving forward to witness the ramifications of the move.

Every source I've seen has Robinson rated much higher than Hubbard. As a matter of fact it isn't even close.

One thing we can say for sure, the Robinson situation has certainly taken the struggles of other, more prominent players out of the spotlight for a little while.

Only for the dolts ... not for menZas like U and I .... *LOL* ...

I guess I should have said out of the public spotlight. Even on the board it's about the only thing getting responses right now.

Don't really understand what the issue is here?

Mary K wrote this was going to happen days ago.

A guy is getting benched. Head coach, OC, OL coach, GM all of these guys are in the know. They made a decision.

It is theirs to make.

What difference does it make as too when we find out?

OH Hum.

What is important is winning games with whoever plays.

The Browns have to play better. That to me is the whole team. The coaches need to coach better. Receivers need to catch the ball. Baker needs to protect the ball. Guys need to tackle. The team needs to quit getting penalties called. The DL needs to stop the run. etc etc.

We lost because of multiple reasons. If we win it is because the team is correcting those mistakes.

The OL or Robinson are not the solo reasons for losing games.

Maybe this is a test to see if McCray can handle LT, in order to move Robinson to RG or RT? Far-fetched I know. And I'm as uncomfortable with a mid-season experiment as most here. I guess an away game, after a bye week to prepare McCray, against an opponent no one expects us to beat, makes it the "best" week to experiment..perhaps.

J/c

Perhaps they never relayed it to GRob to keep quiet about it? I’m not really sure how/why this transpired, but of course it can’t go smoothly.

In the end, it won’t matter much IMO ... just strange to have the miscommunication

j/c:

This situation is starting to remind me of the Timid years.

Even though your LT might be ranked better than your RT it doesn't necessarily mean your LT is playing to level needed out of your LT.

I don't know what's what anymore. Robinson may not be a problem child per se, but his kicking the plaer init eh head and his response afterwards left me with the nagging thought he may not have the right attitude.

I don't even think Freddie knows who the starting OL is.

Maybe Dorsey does...wink, wink...

What an embarrassment.

I thought MCCRay natural position is guard? Heck if your going to move a guard to let mind as well be bitonio.

I’ve thought of this a few times this season: what if we would have just committed to Bitonio at LT and drafted Quentin Nelson to play LG

We can think about a lot of what if's...if frogs had wings they could fly, but they don't, so they don't.

For the record I loved Quint Nelson. Many years ago on this board I wanted Steve Hutcheson, but got laughed at with people saying you don't draft guards that high.

My theory about line play is you need to have very good guards and a good center and you can go with less at the tackle position. If the QB has room to step up, and as long as your tackle doesn't get beat inside, the QB stepping up puts his tackle back in to position to run his guy around the play.

If you get beat up the middle, the shortest distance to the QB, your QB is dead.

Honestly, what good did Joe Thomas bring to the team other than he was maybe the best to play the position? We might have won 25 games while he played here.

You know, trooper, we made a similar “mid season experiment” last season with our o line and it worked out pretty well. Hopefully this will have a similar result.

How far apart is the Freddie saying "wait and see" and GR saying "I was benched".

Could it be that Greg did not know this was a secret and when asked by a reporter he said yes?

I know it doesn't fit the "Team In Turmoil" agenda, but sometimes, miscommunication happens.

I still miss the big guy

That's a really interesting (and somewhat provocative) observation that I hope gets some discussion. I was thinking about two of the more successful franchises of modern times, the Patriots and the Steelers, and trying to remember when either had a prototype All-Pro Left Tackle, and I couldn't think of any. And while I can't say I know much about the Patriots interior OL, the Steelers always seem to be very strong at the OG and C positions.

Didn't Bitonio make it abundantly clear he didn't want to play LT?

This says a lot most people don't want to talk about.

Pit, I do not know what profession you are in but do you by any chance teach creative writing?? So you think our coaches are so stupid as to replace the better of our two tackles on the line with a worse tackle??? Really?? You do realize that our coaches’ futures depend on us having success? Any change they are making will , in their opinion, make us better.

Also, I am sure our coaches watch replays of their position groups, and I am certain our o line coach, offensive coordinator and head coach have a way better idea of which tackle to replace than anyone else does.

Pit are macray’s 67 snaps from week one when he played in an emergency after being in camp about four days or so??

Plenty of people are talking about it.

Jc...

At the end of last year Bitinio was interviewed and a lot of it had content on Greg Robinson...I dont recall the exact dialogue but it was along the ways of Robinson has to keep at it, and keep focused and preparing...

So now that Robinson is benched, it may just be because of his effort behind the scenes...he hasnt looked horrible imho but I knew he wasn't very good last year as well. I am not sure what to think of McCray, but I thought he moves poorly in the short time I've seen him this year...hate to see that on an island where he will be at LT....

I know I'm tough on Baker, only because I expected better this year...But often he runs directly back (where the tackles are pushing their defenders to, and where as a QB you are taught not to go) Baker needs to clean that up, and being fair...Oline must do better as well.

I could be wrong but it seems Kush has done worse as the year progressed (could be wrong) Hubbard is probably best served as a swing tackle imo...but I understand we really have noone better, let's hope for some positive resolution soon.

I also believe if we were trading for a LT, it would have happened already (as the bye week would have been perfect to getting the player up to speed) we shall see though.

So looking at all those PFF Browns numbers, it tells me:

- Trettor and Bitonio (#notenoughtalent) are the largest reason why the unit's pass blocking numbers are good.

- Our tackles are combining for 20 pressures through 6 games. Not sure how this relates to other tackle combos but at first glance, it doesn't seem good. McCray doesn't look like that much of an improvement either.

- Greg Robinson is not doing well vs the pass or rush. Roughly 30 amongst all tackles in a variety of categories?

Correction: GR seems to be doing just above average compared to all tackles. I overlooked the 77 total number. I would like to see this compared to just LTs.

- PFF thinks Kush is pretty bad. I tend to agree and it amplifies the trade of Zeitler (#notenoughtalent) and drafting Corbett.

Let's get real here for just a hot second.

Last year we started a raw rookie at LT who had never taken an NFL snap. He was actually a UDFA that no other team even drafted.

At mid season we inserted Robinson. Now I don't attribute that to the turn around we had in terms of W's, but the position was certainly improved.

Now let's look at this change. We go to a kid who has never started a game at LT is entire career. Who has been cut from two NFL teams and is a natural G. Otherwise he has only played RT and that was in a total of seven games.

So yes, I think if you look at the PFF grades you can see that Robinson is most certainly not quite the problem some say he is. I don't think there is anyone on this roster that can play the LT position as well as Robinson and I think it only serves to distract from where the bigger problem is at this time.

But with that problem, the investment is so high that he can't be replaced. So we might as well blame someone else to distract from it. I know people love to think of football as a sport. And that's fine for the fan base.

But it's actually a business worth about a billion dollars. If you don't think keeping the fan base focused on more trivial things and distracting them into thinking what it is you want them to think, then you're having trouble seeing how this all works.

At this point we're only one day away from seeing the folly in all of this. Stay tuned.....

THAT'S getting real?? C'mon bro. We're not mixing up the OL to make people think Baker isn't playing bad. That's after school movie nonsense.

Oh Baker isn't the only issue. He's one of the bigger issues than Robinson, but not the only one. We have many players rated and playing worse than Robinson. Some of them on the OL.

So sabotage the entire thing so nobody knows where to point the fingers? How does that benefit "the business"?

Is Dorsey seeing ghosts on the Offensive line?

It seems decent to me.

Most of it is on Baker and Freddie's/Monkey's goofy offensive system.

He has had time to throw.

The stats and the eye-test show that Kush is pretty bad. When your OTs are below-average and your RG is simply over-matched, your QB has no where to go...can't step-up...gotta escape the guys the OTs are supposed to block...running right makes more sense than running left...hence...run right. This isn't rocket science.

Our OL is not consistently good at run blocking either. Sometimes they're good, and sometimes they just suck. It's a good thing that Chubb is good at getting yards after contact.

I'll agree with you that our RG and RT have been very bad. I do think Robinson has been average/serviceable, but still not what you want from a starting LT. He's had a bad career, so although Browns fans were happy with him as an LT, last year can easily be considered an outlier in terms of performance.

Baker certainly carries blame with this offense but I do think he looks like he has lost confidence in a good portion of our lineman. I can't blame him, either. Outside of Bitonio and Tretter, everyone else is inconsistent.

Takes gone bad.

Anyone who thinks we would make a change at one of the most important positions on the offense to distract anyone from anything is foolish. Our coaches think this change will help make us better. If it doesn’t pan out we will go back to Robinson. Maybe it will work and we will slide Robinson to rt, who knows.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Teller move in at RG
The few plays Kush was out vs Seattle and Teller replaced him, our line looked way more physical.
I really think that the only thing holding it back is how late he came in and needing to learn a completely new offense.

Ummm...the trade deadline is Tuesday. this change may be a one game "show-me" to see what we've got and then make a decision.

j/c:

This thread is so typical. The same folks mock others for stretching the truth and then turn around and then completely make things up. It's to the point that I am not even going to read this crap anymore.

You say that Vers, but your just as much a masochist as the rest of us

Statistically Robinson seems ok...but when I watch the game he isn't consistent and even if not that good he doesn't ride the Defender consistently so that Baker knows there is a window of a in the pocket slide to the left. All I know is that Baker is not as accurate. All I know is that Baker has to get rid of the ball after 2 seconds or else he is done for. That just isn't right I don't care what the stats say. Especially when we are calling plays with most of the routes being over 10 yards..that takes time to develop.

jmho

j/c

The part missing in all of this is we don't have an upgrade for the LT position on this roster. And we won't have one today. Robinson is the best we have even though that isn't very good.

Stay tuned.....

Watched some highlights of the past couple games. Highlights so take it for what it's worth. But I saw a lot of plays where Bitonio covered for Robinson.

My question would be, with all those PFF stats being bandied about, how is that taken into consideration by them?

Not trying to make a point, just trying to get a better understanding of those stats/rankings/evaluations or whatever you want to call them mean.

I’m not sure, but that’s a fair question. You’d have to think that their ratings are all encompassing and include that sort of stuff

I believe if you look around the league that's not an isolated situation.

And I actually think the point I'm trying to make here is being missed in all of this.

I've never tried to claim that Robinson is a good LT. What I've said is he's the best we have on the roster to play the position.

It's all going to be playing itself out here in a few hours, so we'll see.

I agree. I can't see how McCray could be an upgrade. Robinson is a mystery, he can look good, and then be really bad. But, he is the best we got, as far as we know. I guess we will see.

Did McCray play well enough today that Trent Williams is no longer in the picture?

McCray was the least of our problems today.

agreed ... he did no worse than what we’ve had

And certainly no better.

IMHO, this game was on Chubb and Baker, not fair to criticize any other player.

I also think that NE didn't play with the intensity they use to play after we gave away the game, so its very hard to make any assessment.

Just what I saw watching the game I thought the offensive line was better in the run game compared to previous weeks. There were some huge holes against a great defense. Eric Kush and Wyatt Teller both played at left guard yesterday too. Kush played 84% of the snaps and Teller 16%.

How is it on Baker?

His Butt fumble led to the TD that sealed the game.

When did Baker fumble the ball in this game?

Chubb had 2 (both lost) and Hilliard also had 1. (The Browns recovered that one)

Those were the only fumbles in the game.

Butt fumble is an expression for a stupid play named after Sanchez... His int was stupid and sealed the game.

His INT was the play that was called. You expect that your best Guard will be able to block for more than 1 second. You do not expect to see the DL beat your best OL, and beat your receiver to the pitch. That is a play we have run several times successfully, but the Pats just defensed it perfectly.

Maybe that was the problem. The Pats knew it was coming....

You expect a QB to look at what he is doing... no excuses man, don't sugar coat it.

EXACTLY why you hav e been called a troll and no one takes any of your post seriously.

You wanna say baker has been bad, he has.

You wanna say he needs to see the field better, he does.

But when you try to blame things like that on him, you look petty.

Yes, its Bakers fault they tried a trick play against the best defense in football, that putting up historic numbers.

Yeah, sure - its baker fault that the oline didn't block a DL that allowed him to blow in basically untouched to get the ball.

Yeah, its baker's fault guy.

pssstttt, be gone. Your still the dude who says he has a weak arm, when even the BIGGEST Baker haters on this board have said "nah, hes got a really good arm".

You expect your OL to do their job, especially on a play where they only have to block for 1 freakin' second! You look for the right pre-snap read, snap the ball and toss it. The DL was through our OL in less than 1 second! He could not have gotten there much more quickly if there was no OL on the field.

It was Gregg Robinson's fault.

Sanchez butt fumble wasn't his fault either, or at least some still say that.

j/c...

This may be a better place to post this...

Yea, he had his share of wiffs and gave up at least one sack. He is not the answer either, but then he was no worse than Hubbard imo.

He was not Bitonio's responsibility on that play. If that is the case, then it was a poorly designed play from its inception.

The DE was supposed to be seal blocked to free up the outside. No way can you ask your LG to do that, so I think that someone else missed his assignment there.

is this like golf? the lower the number the better of a player they are?

It was a joke. McCray's grade was lower than any grade Robinson has had this year.

I'm not sure how anyone expected anything different.

I'm not one to bag on most of our players or coaches in general. I do take it game by game however. If someone stunk it up in a game I won't hesitate to say so. But even after a few bad games I'm not one of those calling for people to be fired, traded or cut.

But this was a rather obvious blunder. I don't know if it was the call of the OL coach, Freddie or who exactly, but no matter what you think of Robinson as a LT, he's the best we have at the position and this move didn't make sense from its inception.

That is pure Three Stooges +8 Material there...

The left tackle pulled and was going to be lead blocker. It was Bitonio’s man.

Kind of figured this may happen.

Robinson is one of these guys that is hard to figure out.

He has what you look for to be a good LT. He was drafted very high and he was a consensus talent.

I don't know his mental makeup. Maybe he lacks a mean side. Some guys just never reach their true potential.

Maybe the benching was to try and start a fire under him?

More than likely he the best guy we have. Makes one doubt about his future after this with the Browns.

Fools.

So now Robinson basically knows he can suck it up and go through the motions haha .. McCray was that bad apparently

The same stupid play happened in the Purdue-Nebraska game yesterday. Purdue QB threw a shovel pass right into the arms of a Nebraska DL. I couldn't believe I was seeing it all over again since I never saw it before in over 50 years of watching football. Unbelievable!!

cfrs...Robinson is probably the best LT on the roster..that is how badly the Browns need to rebuild the OLine..primarily the OTs.

Maybe Robinson will come back and play better after being benched...we can only hope.

yep that was crazy how similar

I also the Greg Robinson is better than McCray. The problem is that switching back and forth after only one week. The process is horrible.

j/c

When you are contemplating the conclusion that 3 of 5 OL need to be upgraded, you have a bad OL.

I'm starting to wonder if Robinson did something stupid during the bye week and this was an internal, hush-hush one game suspension. He was "active" due to overall OT restrictions on the 53 with Lamm out.

This is probably the right move.

j/c

The move didn't make any sense when they made it. The results made that obvious.

agreed

Didn't we produce more yards than the Patriots? In a constant rain?

Robinson is a better OT than is McCray...but the results were far from obvious. If Chubb didn't fumble TWICE creating a 14 point booger, the results just might have suggested that McCray should get another start.

His performance was rated on his individual performance. He graded out much lower than Robinson. It's not a debatable subject.

It was done to light a fire under Robinson, if you look at his PFF pass blocking grades he either has a really good game or a really bad one.

It is funny, 66. Some of the same people who complain that our penalty prone players are not held accountable complain that the coaches benched Robinson for a tackle of ,at best unproven quality and likely lower quality than our starter. I think Robinson is one of our most penalized o lineman so maybe, just maybe, our coach wanted to hold him accountable.

What a disaster.

Not debatable to who? You? Squelch any disagreement? So typical.

Newsflash! They are both bad OTs. One's been overrated his entire career...one guy is known for being an over-achiever and is actually a G...maybe a RT.

They benched Robinson for a reason.

"graded out?" Really?

I hope Robinson learned his lesson ...

One thing that happens a lot over the years of watching the Browns: I hear "I've never seen that before!" A LOT!

For when people hate on analytics but use PFF to justify an argument.

Yeah, for one game. McCray was worse than Robinson, and no, it's not debatable. That's why McCray only started one game. Unless of course you think they just put Robinson back in the line up because he is worse.

Sometimes you just have to bring things down to their level.

Do you understand that they are BOTH bad OTs? I'd say you do not. Why did McCray - who is a G - EVER start over a healthy Robinson? It's like being the tallest midget. You going off of PFF ratings and making excuses for those ratings is comical.

There are degrees of bad. You do understand that things can go from bad to worse don't you? Well, McCray was worse.

I guess you just have trouble comprehending that McCray only had one start and they went right back to Robinson. Somehow that escapes you.

Why did Robinson get benched in the first place? That's the point. We lost the McCray start...to New England no less....and...we rushed for 100% more yards than did NE. I'm not pining for McCray...they are both bad...as OTs.

The other OT is even worse and we just replaced the RG.

You are hoping to go all StrawmanDawg and create some illusion that our OL is not bad...but the proof is on the field.

What are you talking about? We need help at both OT positions and at RG. I don't know what illusion that's trying to paint there.

You are trying to move the goal posts here. And I certainly understand why. Because you know as well as I do that Robinson is the best LT we currently have on our roster. That doesn't make him a good LT. Hubbard is not a good RT either.

But that wasn't what we were discussing was it?



No, it wasn't.

Bitonio is simply NOT this bad.

I have to wonder what is going on that is destroying what has otherwise been an All-Pro career.

That's a good question...While Bitinio hasn't sucked this year, imho he looked a lot more human this year (as he was normally lights out every game...I worried about him last year playing beside Robinson, but he looked great last year)

It's odd...we hire a new Oline coach (Campen) who is regarded one of the best...And our Oline is struggling everywhere.

It could be a number of factors and probably is

Bitonio seems to be trending downward as the season moves along. I've started to notice him the last 2 games.

Part of ti has to be how bad our LT has been, Robinson or McCray. That, plus the back and forth the last 2 games. Tretter is excellent, but everyone else besides he and Bitonio are awful, so I assume the help has to go the the tackles and RG, and Bitonio may be trying to do too much.

The Baker INT vs New England happened because a guy blew right by Bitonio and was in Baker's face in an instance. It's hard to say if Bitonio messed up or if someone else did and he tried to make up for it.

Yeah, I hate when the QB is forced to throw an int. instead of throwing the ball away.

Yeah, I bet if you gave Bitonio truth serum he’d admit how bad the LT is right now and how much it affects his play

Can't really throw the ball away on a 1 foot, no look shovel pass brah.

Bitonio has also need help himself when he has ugly matchups, but the people who are worse around him demand much more help, often failing their assignment. No=win situation personally and game as well. Bitonio is not horrible, but we will need more offensive tackles from somewhere. This is upsetting to me because we seemed to have settled for Robinson, hardly decent. This scheme needs adjusting, but schemes cannot compensate adequately for what I have seen. Better feet would help.

playcalling and blocking schemes are the biggest issues.

It's not the players.

It's the coaches.

I first noticed his issues in the SF game...granted they have a fabulous Dline....Never really saw him struggle as much as he has this year.

For Continuity's sake I think the Browns should commit to Robinson through the end of the 2021 season, unless somebody comes along, clearly better, and rips the job out from under him.

But it's not something the team should overly seek, the team should seek continuity.

All you have to do is follow the money and look at the contract. For a starting LT, Robinson isn't making much money. His contract is a one year deal.

Those two factors tell you everything you need to know. He is a short term rental. For a starting LT, he is played low because it fits with his ability as a starting NFL LT. His contract is for a single season because this team does not see him as a long term solution beyond this season.

I'm sure he will be retained if a better player isn't signed or drafted. But when seeing what he's being paid and the short term of his contract it leaves little doubt that they are on the lookout for his replacement.

A ton of reasons why contracts are how they are.

Could be that's the only way he would sign with the Browns in the first place is because he wouldn't be tied down long term and would be a free agent again in a short period.

Unless you were present at the negotiations of when Greg Robinson was signed and a part of his contract, you are just grasping at clues; and your post suggests the Browns had all the leverage,
then you took your grasped clues to justify some conclusion that you used to jump to what it says about the teams feelings about having him.

Nobody knows.

Only those who comprehend exactly what Robinson's abilities are and what his limitations are. Only those who fully understand just how low that salary is for a starting NFL LT. Only those who understand that if Robinson were better at his craft he could have gotten a long term deal at a much higher salary than he did here.

This reminds me of the responsibilities for player development that rest on the team brass.

I'll hope again, the team will commit to Robinson through the end of the 2021/22 season, for continuities sake.

Sucktitude is not continuity. The objective of any team is to improve your talent at any and every position where the opportunity presents itself.

Roster turnover is a part of every team.

Continuity? If you want to see how continuity works, watch the Patriots. And it isn't dependent on the players at most positions. It's the QB and the HC. All other parts are interchangeable.

Somebody ought to use that for a signature.

unfortunately that's the only continuity we're familiar with.

yeah, sadly we’re back to our comfort zone now

What are the numbers for GR tonight? Dudes missed block after block costing us big plays. But hey, we don’t need to upgrade the line “they’re grrrrreatttttt”

Who has said we shouldn't upgrade the OL?

Few people at the trade deadline. Said the Ol wasn't a problem and are one of best in the league. Don't play coy.

I don't remember anyone saying they were one of the best in the league. I do remember people saying they weren't as bad as some people made them out to be. I also remember people saying rather than give a first rounder and huge salary for a 31 year old LT it would be smarter to wait and draft one next year. I also remember people saying while he isn't a very good LT, that Robinson is by far the best LT on our roster. I actually agreed with the last two comments.

I'm not playing coy at all. I don't remember anyone claiming our OL was one of the best in the league.

It has to be a priority, while teams have been able to pay for a very good OG in FA hopefully we will do that. But you cannot get a very good OT from FA. Like Solder the Giants payed a fortune for him and he sucks.

We have to draft them OTs that is. It has to be a priority of ours.

jmho Oh Robinson was terrible yesterday, no penalties but instead he just let his guy go in. man our timing with Joe Thomas kills me. smh

I agree with you 100%.

We have been two of those who watch the OL very closely. It's a sad thing to say that Robinson is the best player on this team to man the LT position even though it's true.

But yeah it is never a good idea to give up huge assets in terms of draft picks and contacts $$$ for a LT. Many fans simply aren't aware of how rare it is to have the skill set to play that position. If a good one comes along on the FA market, the price is cost prohibitive.

The skill set to play the G position isn't as rare and as such you can sign a G worthy of starting for a much lesser investment.

That's why in general teams draft LT's. We certainly need one.