Kitchens 'not worried about' job security after loss Print
By Kevin Patra Around the NFL Writer Published: Nov. 4, 2019 at 08:55 a.m.
The calls for Cleveland Browns coach Freddie Kitchens to lose his job are getting louder off the shores of Lake Erie.
Sunday's 24-19 loss to the Denver Broncos, whose quarterback Brandon Allen was taking his first snaps in the NFL, was a low point, dropping the Browns to 2-6.
Kitchens insists the calls for his job don't bother him in the least.
"It really doesn't concern me," he said, via the Cleveland Plain Dealer. "It's not my decision. I've never worried about it before, I'm not worried about it now, I'm not going to worry about it in the future. I'll just do the best job I can do."
If the first half of his coaching career is his best, he won't keep the gig much longer.
The Browns have been a haphazard operation, plagued by penalties, missed tackles, inconsistent offense and a quarterback that has struggled in Year 2.
Kitchens was a breath of fresh air when he took over the offense last season. In 2019, the air got stale quickly. Cleveland's offense has no identity, is just a collection of plays with seemingly no plan, and the execution has been rotten.
Baker Mayfield, who for the first time this season didn't throw an interception, insisted the struggles are on the players, not the coaching staff.
"It's a topic for you guys," Mayfield said. "Within our building we know exactly what's wrong. We haven't executed. I think, like I said earlier, we had a good plan we just haven't executed it. We'll see how the guys handle it this week, but it's got to be a singular focus. The preparation the last few games has been unbelievable, so we need to continue that.
"The type of men that we have, I said it weeks ago, whenever it was, months ago, that we're going to stick together. We're going to keep pushing forward, so this is obviously very frustrating but we got to move forward."
It's fair to note that last year the Browns fired Hue Jackson after eight disappointing games with a record of 2-5-1 (including four overtime games -- three losses). Jackson, of course, had two previous seasons of ineptitude (1-31) to take into consideration. Yet, Kitchens' operation -- with all the talent on both sides of the ball -- somehow seems worse.
Cleveland lacks attention to detail, guidance, and cohesive leadership.
Despite the loss, Kitchens still believes the ship is pointing in the right direction.
"I think our guys are still fighting,'' he said. "I think they go out and played well for the most part. Got bogged down in the red zone offensively. Defensively, I think you make a few more tackles and they don't really have much. They scored 24 points on 21 minutes of possession, so that means that they were getting them off the field and giving up a few big plays and a couple tackles that extended drives for them. Offensively, we moved the ball pretty well until we got in the red zone. It just takes execution. I don't think we've got anyone here that's going to give up or throw in the towel.
"We've still got eight games left so we've got to do something with those eight games. It starts at one game. That's the only thing we can win is one game. I think these guys focused and concentrated this week. We didn't have any pre-snap penalties. We didn't turn the ball over. We've got to do a better job in the run game of staying on our blocks, especially when we have double teams. We've got to come off the ball and stay with those doubles. I don't think there's any quit in these guys."
The first part of the season the Browns faced a tough schedule. Sunday was supposed to represent an easier road to get back on track.
The train remains overturned in the ditch.
Losing to a first-time quarterback while squandering opportunity after opportunity is a bad loss for Kitchens and the Browns. A few more like it down the stretch, and GM John Dorsey will be looking for a mulligan for his coaching hire.
Why would he? Worst case scenario he is going to get HC level compensation when he gets fired...
How many years has a RB coach would he need to get this kind of money.
Would you be worried if you were the CEO of your company, not me... with the severance packages they get, I would have to work several lives to make that kind of money.
Thinking about not watching the game next week. Maybe just have redzone on. It usually takes me to like week 12 or so to not really want to watch anymore.
I like Meyer but why would he leave the comfort of Ohio State AD? Yeah, he might get a bit more money as HC of the Browns...maybe? He'd also have a lot more stress and I think he's had enough of that. So, I don't see any possibility of getting Meyer as Browns coach.
He could care less. He got a gift with this job for whatever $$$ he signed for. He's an egomaniac and he is going to get relieved of his duties doing things HIS way. He never has to work again. The Browns have AGAIN paid for someone's retirement. That is about all they have been good at since they returned to the league. I would get rid of him ASAP simply to restore order to the locker room. The lack of discipline and focus is alarming.
Why can’t he just say: “Look, we need to cut out anything that isn’t about winning. Guys, let’s eliminate social media, fashion, beards, clown shoes, etc until we get to .500.”
I would say that winning should be your expectations whether you're inside or outside the building. Especially yesterday. A two win team with a starting QB who never took a snap in the NFL.
Why can’t he just say: “Look, we need to cut out anything that isn’t about winning. Guys, let’s eliminate social media, fashion, beards, clown shoes, etc until we get to .500.”
Let me be the first to say, AMEN MY BROTHER!!!!!!!
If Monken was calling the plays from the beginning and things were going the same way, Freddie would have taken over the play calling by now... but he can't see the same situation in reverse...
He shouldn't be worried about job security. He should heed his own advice and "Get away from football for awhile" a long while. And if he were to decide to go deep sea fishing,he should take that Baker fellow with him.He looks like he would make good bait,sharks can smell fear in the water.
Why can’t he just say: “Look, we need to cut out anything that isn’t about winning. Guys, let’s eliminate social media, fashion, beards, clown shoes, etc until we get to .500.”
Let me be the first to say, AMEN MY BROTHER!!!!!!!
I disagree about the beards. The time spent shaving every day could be better spent on football. Leave the beards alone and dedicate your shaving time to football!
If Monken was calling the plays from the beginning and things were going the same way, Freddie would have taken over the play calling by now... but he can't see the same situation in reverse...
Freddie kitchens is more of a clown than OBJs shoes. A QB sneak might have been the right call. BUT IT ONLY WORKS WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR STAR PLAYERS ON THE FIELD THAT THE OPPONENT HAS TO ACCOUNT FOR!
I agree, everyone and their mother knew what play was coming, including the defense. that's why Baker had to go so wide on the sneak, they loaded the middle of the line because they knew the call.
I would love to have somebody similar to Kyle Shannahan but we had him and let him walk.
Some of us weren't happy about that.
But then again, with the GM's and drafts we had about that time, he would probably have been used as a scapegoat and been gone by now anyway.
Yep, I agree, but he was the one that got away, maybe Beelyache, due to the move, I don't think he would have done in Cleveland what he's done in NE but he may have gotten us a SB by now, at least one.
btw, why can't I see Milk Man's posts? Are you using some kind of magic font? lol
but, is it Freddie's O making them look that way, or their inability to execute what is being asked of them in Freddie's O that is doing it?
Subtle difference, but all the difference in the world.
Very true PPE, but I'm not sure it's all that subtle, lol I mean it is something that will make all the difference in the world to this offense/team, provided we figure out the answer and I still trust in Dorsey to do just that.
In fact, I truly think it could be a bit of both, Freddy has not always been the best at playcalling and the players have also had issues with execution. Still, if things don't change, it will be Freddy taking the fall.
but, is it Freddie's O making them look that way, or their inability to execute what is being asked of them in Freddie's O that is doing it?
Subtle difference, but all the difference in the world.
Wouldn’t that actually be one in the same thing? It’s not like OBJ and Landry are rookies and are having a hard time adapting to the NFL. So if Freddie’s offense is too much, maybe he needs to adjust the scheme to suit their abilities.
but, is it Freddie's O making them look that way, or their inability to execute what is being asked of them in Freddie's O that is doing it?
Subtle difference, but all the difference in the world.
Even if it's the players' inability to execute it, then it's on the coach to recognize that and go with something that they CAN run. Not try to force square pegs into round holes. A good coach is one that can take the players he has and make something work for them. A bad coach will keep trying to force the players he has into a system he likes, even if he doesn't have the players for it.
I thought that's what we were getting with Kitchens, as last year he seemed to take what we had and made it work, giving them plays that the team felt they were good at and executing them. This year, he seems to want to force an air-raid system with other crazy wrinkles onto a team that doesn't look like they can do it. We have one of the more prolific backs in the league in Chubb, but rather than center the offense around him, and run lots of play-action to open up the pass, we want to put him on the sideline on key downs, motion out of the backfield, and put Baker on an island, in an offense he's clearly not comfortable with.
but, is it Freddie's O making them look that way, or their inability to execute what is being asked of them in Freddie's O that is doing it?
Subtle difference, but all the difference in the world.
Even if it's the players' inability to execute it, then it's on the coach to recognize that and go with something that they CAN run. Not try to force square pegs into round holes. A good coach is one that can take the players he has and make something work for them. A bad coach will keep trying to force the players he has into a system he likes, even if he doesn't have the players for it.
I thought that's what we were getting with Kitchens, as last year he seemed to take what we had and made it work, giving them plays that the team felt they were good at and executing them. This year, he seems to want to force an air-raid system with other crazy wrinkles onto a team that doesn't look like they can do it. We have one of the more prolific backs in the league in Chubb, but rather than center the offense around him, and run lots of play-action to open up the pass, we want to put him on the sideline on key downs, motion out of the backfield, and put Baker on an island, in an offense he's clearly not comfortable with.
After Freddie gets fired he will never be a HC again in the NFL. It might go down as one of the dumbest HC hires in recent memory. Was never a HC at any level before but Dorsey Gives him a job that belongs to only 31 other Men In the world
but, is it Freddie's O making them look that way, or their inability to execute what is being asked of them in Freddie's O that is doing it?
Subtle difference, but all the difference in the world.
Even if it's the players' inability to execute it, then it's on the coach to recognize that and go with something that they CAN run. Not try to force square pegs into round holes. A good coach is one that can take the players he has and make something work for them. A bad coach will keep trying to force the players he has into a system he likes, even if he doesn't have the players for it.
I thought that's what we were getting with Kitchens, as last year he seemed to take what we had and made it work, giving them plays that the team felt they were good at and executing them. This year, he seems to want to force an air-raid system with other crazy wrinkles onto a team that doesn't look like they can do it. We have one of the more prolific backs in the league in Chubb, but rather than center the offense around him, and run lots of play-action to open up the pass, we want to put him on the sideline on key downs, motion out of the backfield, and put Baker on an island, in an offense he's clearly not comfortable with.
If you take the assumption that their inability to execute is a function of the system being too difficult, then I agree with you.
If it is because they aren't putting in the work to inherently & reflexively know things or are not maintaining their focus well enough to be able to execute, then no, it is not a case where things should be simplified for them... they need to do their work to have themselves fully knowing, understanding, and ready to roll with absolutely every aspect of their job in that offense. That's their job.
Man , Some of u guys are tough. Blow it all up after half a season and start over.. AGAIN. Many people complaining some of our previous coaches should have been retained and werent given a chance after failing early on and yet want to do the same thing with Freddie. Can we please have some patience ? I've been wainting decades here as well but I know blowing it up every year or two HAS NOT worked. Id rather let him grow into the position and learn. I've yet seen a in game decision that COST us the game. Yes, some of them have been marginal calls and aggressive, but its because he belived in the players to execute the play. He didnt cause the fumbles or tip balls for INTs. Minus A few unlucky breaks and stupid ref calls and we are on the plus side of this record.. RELAX.
And it’s the coaches job to ensure they are doing theirs. So even if one believes Freddie isn’t failing on the scheme part, he’s clearly failing on the player development and accountability part.
I’m not a reactionary person when it comes to FIRE EVERYONE ... yes, I get emotional on game days like a lot of us, but I very rarely state “GET RID OF __________ “ ... but this year is different. IMO, Kitchens has done a horrible job with some real talent. He’s a horrendous head coach
Man , Some of u guys are tough. Blow it all up after half a season and start over.. AGAIN. Many people complaining some of our previous coaches should have been retained and werent given a chance after failing early on and yet want to do the same thing with Freddie. Can we please have some patience ? I've been wainting decades here as well but I know blowing it up every year or two HAS NOT worked. Id rather let him grow into the position and learn. I've yet seen a in game decision that COST us the game. Yes, some of them have been marginal calls and aggressive, but its because he belived in the players to execute the play. He didnt cause the fumbles or tip balls for INTs. Minus A few unlucky breaks and stupid ref calls and we are on the plus side of this record.. RELAX.
Sorry, but I don’t spend my hard earned money and set aside 3 hours of my life on a weekly basis because I’m intrigued by the Education of Freddie Kitchens. If he’s really that compelling they. An make a Netflix documentary or film Draft Day 2. This roster was built to win now. Freddie was hired to win now. Previous coaches at least had the cover of a poor roster. Freddie doesn’t have that. I don’t expect him to be perfect, none of us do. But the blueprint for success is clear to all of us and he can’t follow it. Nick Chubb has the ability and opportunity to be the Leagues leading rusher. The fact we are 8 games in and an offense that is devoid of an identity still isn’t entered around him is proof Freddie’s priorities are fouled up.
I don't know much about the coaching situation, But!
I have placated my own mind for the past 13 months by telling myself Greg Williams wanted to leave the Browns,.. There was no way they could have convinced him to stay,
But then I hear Bruce Drennan yesterday, and he says Williams' wanted to stay but they didn't give him an interview.
Oh I don't know, Remember the 2nd half of last year, it wasn't so bad.
What the truth of the situation is, I don't know, it's 2-6 now and nobody's getting better week to week.
I am also one of those people that resist drastic decisions with all my strength. There is only 1 thing that I hate more than watching a talented, poorly coached team piss away a season, and that's blowing up the whole structure prematurely (and .5 of a season definitely falls w/in my definition of premature). If we fire Freddie, let's face it, we're totally resetting. OC and DC are gone. Schemes are changing. Even if it was possible for a new HC to come in and keep the guys that are there, how can we expect that person to do that. What have Wilkes and Monkin done to deserve to stick around? Once you throw out coaches, you throw out scheme, and once you throw out scheme, you inevitable throw out some portion of your talent. It's a process we know well.
But there are 2 things that are really giving me pause.
1. From last year (post-Hue) to this year... basically the same players, same offensive guy (Freddie), same playcaller.... but night and day difference. I never would have guessed that swapping out a guy like Williams, and having a guy that was here, under Williams, take his place would yield such a big difference. The discipline/execution issue we're seeing each week is a complicated and multi-faceted problem, but most of those causes point to the head coach. -Baker's regression -Oline falling apart -Penalties -Stupid mistakes
All these things have multiple root causes, but the main one (imo) is the head coaching position.
2. Freddie's handling of the dumpster fire Look, everyone makes mistakes. We're human. That's fine... Even moreso, we knew Freddie would go through some significant OJT. I get that that means we're going to have bumps along the way, and I accepted that, even if I disagreed with the hire. What I can't accept is him basically doubling down on his assinine decisions. Not giving up playcalling. Turning the whole 'square peg meet round hole' theory into an offensive scheme and weekly gameplan. Comments like explaining not running Chubb at the end of the Seattle half because he wanted to score twice (and talking like that was a valid decision)....
Basically, giving every indication that he's not learning from his mistakes is simply not tolerable. Mistakes are a big part of learning, and I was fine with this season being one that our team only started coming together. But I don't see how these mistakes will result in improvements. I see us making the same mistakes over and over (and many of these recurring issues are fixable).
For once, I'm really torn on the idea of making a drastic switch at HC.
The question for me is fairly simple: what is there to gain by waiting until the day after of the last game of the season before firing him?
I am sick of Freddie and his Schtick. But...
We have 0 credibility in the league our entire organization is a joke who are you going to get to come here? Why would they? Do you think having a few players with big names is enough for a guy to want to risk his livihood and being fired after 8 games if they have a bad stretch?
Its the NFL, slumps happen. Expectations are not always met. Job security is utmost important. NFL is not for long, why would you want to go somewhere with the averages are even shorter?
Why would you want to come to a 2-6 team AND have to deal with the personalities on this team?
We are not the golden egg we thought we were in the offseason anymore.
John has a reputation of being hard to work with (which has been reported from his times in KC).
Haslams are a joke, and the most fickle owners in the league.
The weather sucks.
The fans scream for firing the coach every 4 games.
The question for me is fairly simple: what is there to gain by waiting until the day after of the last game of the season before firing him?
What is there to lose by waiting? The season is already toast; we're playing for Draft position.
No sense in rewarding poor coordinators with the title of Interim HC, unless it's the Special Teams coach.
We lose the opportunity to (potentially) show this is a roster worth coaching by the next candidate. We lose the chance to finally introduce the concept of accountability to the players. What’s more effective: canning Freddie mid season for poor performance and then telling the players they’re next? Or canning Freddie after the players have all left to go home for the season therefor distancing themselves from their responsibility of a poor season? If we’re lucky this team will produce and become more attractive.
I don’t see Wilkes or Monken or even Preifer taking over as rewarding them. It’s simply “next man up”.
I think canning Freddie sooner than later also lends a little more credibility to the eventual “we’re willing to do whatever it takes to turn this organization around” . Dorsey would be smart to cut bait now because it’ll give him a few months to get thru the criticism and second guessing. This way it’ll die down before the hiring process versus having all that in the media and simultaneously trying to attract a good HC.
If a potential candidate (should Freddie even be fired, which I'm betting he won't be unless Dorsey feels the need to cave to public pressure) can't see that this is a roster worth coaching, then he isn't a very realistic or qualified candidate in any way. We don't have to sell this job.
Listening to Gregg and listening to Freddie interviews are like night and day.
Interviews mean nothing. Coaches should give the same answers over and over again.
Listen to a Belichick interview. lol "Uh ... because that's what happened." "We have to do better" "We're on to (next team) ...."
Interviews mean something when you are trying to convince people you know what the heck you are doing. I’ve always appreciated how intelligently GW speaks about player development and it’s clear he’s a true student of concepts of Leadership.
Everyone talking about Gregg is not realizing his def just got lit up by Miami, and has looked like hot pooh in NY.
It's not his D that had me interested. It was his leadership and discipline that turned this team last year.
Eh, I think it was more of the players wanting to pee on Hue than what Gregg did, JMO.
Hes been in the league how many years, and has been fired from everywhere he has gone. Sean Payton called him a "rogue coach" and said there is no place in the league for him.
Hes a POC that will never get a HC gig the rest of his career. And probably this will be his last go around when he fails miserably in NY, as he already has.
Oh, he also has a total winning percentage of .393 as a HC.
He might be better than Freddie, but that aint sayin much.
If a potential candidate (should Freddie even be fired, which I'm betting he won't be unless Dorsey feels the need to cave to public pressure) can't see that this is a roster worth coaching, then he isn't a very realistic or qualified candidate in any way. We don't have to sell this job.
Talented and worth coaching are two different things.
Not many people want to put up with some of the antics and headaches. And they are growing with each loss.
Everyone talking about Gregg is not realizing his def just got lit up by Miami, and has looked like hot pooh in NY.
Gregg Williams wasn't the answer either... He turned down 7 head coaching jobs to be the Browns DC a couple years ago. And he obviously turned them all down this year to be with the Jets.
The real answer lies with the owner... imagine if Dorsey got to choose his own coach last year before being forced to use Hue after an 0-16 season. That's all on Haslam. Remember, the fans also wanted Hue "with real talent." Yeesh... And I suppose had that happened, no one would even know who Freddie Kitchens is today... He'd probably be the QB coach in Tampa.
The question for me is fairly simple: what is there to gain by waiting until the day after of the last game of the season before firing him?
What is there to lose by waiting? The season is already toast; we're playing for Draft position.
No sense in rewarding poor coordinators with the title of Interim HC, unless it's the Special Teams coach.
Well, we're all just looking at the first box in the flowchart... "Fire Freddie". The most important is the next box... "Hire XXX". Firing Freddie accomplishes nothing but to create a vacancy, but if you know Freddie is a goner, why wait til the bitter end?
To me, Freddie's shelf life is about 4 weeks. If you haven't seen a turnaround by then - it's time to go. That wouldn't really be a "reward" to a coordinator, it would be more of a challenge... Just like last year, unfortunately, we screwed the pooch when making the decision. Gregg Williams offered much more continuity, and discipline, to a young team, but we were worried that Freddie would be such a hot commodity that we would lose him after a year. "Smartest guy in the room" thinking that failed again.
Think about it -- the only reason Freddie is our HC is because it was assumed that he was the reason for Baker's meteoric rise, and that rise would continue as long as Freddie was in charge. Since that assumption was terribly misguided, what are his real qualifications to be a HC? Freddie admitted that he basically let the players pick the plays and we all acted as if it was some "kumbaya moment". Isn't the coach supposed to know his teams strengths and weaknesses instead of saying "Shucks guys, what do you think we'll be good at?" Now, I'll admit, quick success to a long suffering franchise looked pretty appealing, but it still doesn't negate the fact that Freddie had no documented qualifications to even sniff a HC gig.
I said it til I was red in the face over the past decade. Quit waiting til the end of the season to jump on the coaching carousel. I don't want to compete with five other teams and play "duck, duck, goose" with the eight available prospects. They all sit across from the table with their cards hidden and play "what can you do for me".
If Freddie's not the guy, you need to put the league on notice before "Black Monday", or whatever it's called. It gives the real candidates more time to ponder the possibilities of coaching a young team, with a lot of talent, and a young QB that can still be carved into "the franchise".
A QB sneak might have been the right call. BUT IT ONLY WORKS WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR STAR PLAYERS ON THE FIELD THAT THE OPPONENT HAS TO ACCOUNT FOR!
It wasn't the right call... It was a full yard + and to design it so Baker goes all the way to the tackle gap? Really?
In the end, the reason Baker didn't make it was because his feet got tripped up by the WR/TE whoever it was that was blocking on the edge and Baker lost momentum and was easily pushed backwards as he fell... but you run exactly the same play only having handed it to Chubb and it's very easily a 1st down.
It wasn't the right call... It was a full yard + and to design it so Baker goes all the way to the tackle gap? Really?
I don't think it was designed to go that way.
The problem was, when Chubb came off the field, everyone and their mother knew it was going to be a sneak. Especially the defense. They pinched the DL to the middle, and stacked the box.
Actually, it was one of the few heads up plays on baker to try taking it out that wide, because the middle was stuffed. He went wide to try to get it. It was the only chance at getting it.
Wasn't a bad call, but a bad schematic of the play by taking Chubb off the field.
I think we have abandoned BM's legs. The bootleg or naked reverse with a QB can be devastating. I had hoped he would keep going outside. Enough stupid to go around there. Freedy fooled nobody.
If the offense doesn't pick it up soon, I could see Monken getting fired. I'm not saying he should be, but I could see it being a step taken to shake things up.
I don't know what Kitchen is like with his team. But IF he's a leader of men and that whether this rough patch he should stay and get more time. IF he's not a leader of men then they should cut sling load.
Has had some openings. Part of taking what they give you. I agree about his speed and weight. But design some plan for it. Holding it too long with these guys hasn't worked. Just not a threat as a statue. High throws hurting us as well.
It wasn't the right call... It was a full yard + and to design it so Baker goes all the way to the tackle gap? Really?
I don't think it was designed to go that way.
The problem was, when Chubb came off the field, everyone and their mother knew it was going to be a sneak. Especially the defense. They pinched the DL to the middle, and stacked the box.
Actually, it was one of the few heads up plays on baker to try taking it out that wide, because the middle was stuffed. He went wide to try to get it. It was the only chance at getting it.
Wasn't a bad call, but a bad schematic of the play by taking Chubb off the field.
IIRC, Hilliard was on thr field for both 3rd and 4th downs...
It wasn't the right call... It was a full yard + and to design it so Baker goes all the way to the tackle gap? Really?
I don't think it was designed to go that way.
The problem was, when Chubb came off the field, everyone and their mother knew it was going to be a sneak. Especially the defense. They pinched the DL to the middle, and stacked the box.
Actually, it was one of the few heads up plays on baker to try taking it out that wide, because the middle was stuffed. He went wide to try to get it. It was the only chance at getting it.
Wasn't a bad call, but a bad schematic of the play by taking Chubb off the field.
If you watch the play again I believe Baker would have had no problem picking up the first down if he had gone straight up the middle.
Just read this article. Basically speculating on when or if Freddie gets fired.
For some this is a no brainer. Fire him and move on.
I come from supporting coaches. I hate firing coaches. In most cases it just feeds a merry-go-round of changes that result in going backward.
At times it is needed and justified.
I like Freddie. I want him to succeed. I don't think it is a case of X's and O's. He knows the game. It may be a case of organization. The nitty gritty of running a team as head coach.
IMO he deserves this year if there is improvement.
At this point the Browns are underachieving and that is a reflection on coaching.
If the Browns go sour the rest of the way with loses to teams like the Bengals and Steelers. He will not survive.
I sincerely hope that is not the case. I want this to get better. I want to stick with Freddie. Help him into to becoming a great head coach.
However, that is not how the NFL works. Win or go home. If you were hired to do this job. You have to deliver wins.
One thing is certain in my mind if Freddie does not survive. The next guy will be a "name". Meaning a guy like Andy Reid. A name head coach who has won.
We need a guy with credibility ... a proven voice and leader. Even if that guy hands over play calling to a young OC. We have too much youth, talent, and personality IMO .. FK is in over his head and he’s lost this team
I really really want Freddie to pull his head out of his butt and give just enough of a compelling reason to hang onto him through another season. I absolutely hate changing over coaching staffs.
Trouble is, as hard as I search for a reason to hang onto him... namely, an indication that he's going to adapt and improve... I'm not seeing it. He makes dumb decisions, and then doubles down on said dumb decisions in press conferences. That's an indicator of a guy who can't acknowledge his mistakes in order to correct them... and that just simply can't be tolerated of a rookie head coach with the limited resume like Freddie.
I really hope that Freddie starts to get his arms around this offense, and is able to right the ship through this season and through this coming offseason. Many of the problems that he and Baker introduced can't be fixed until the season is over.
He makes dumb decisions, and then doubles down on said dumb decisions in press conferences.
I actually disagree with this. I think that he states things decently, but either gets taken wrong or out of context - frequently.
For anyone actually paying attention, he is getting things improved - it just isn't translating into Wins, yet.
This will be shouted down, and I don't care; and he will almost certainly be fired at the end of the season and whomever we hire will be the next greatest thing. Yada, yada, yada...
It wasn't the right call... It was a full yard + and to design it so Baker goes all the way to the tackle gap? Really?
I don't think it was designed to go that way.
The problem was, when Chubb came off the field, everyone and their mother knew it was going to be a sneak. Especially the defense. They pinched the DL to the middle, and stacked the box.
Actually, it was one of the few heads up plays on baker to try taking it out that wide, because the middle was stuffed. He went wide to try to get it. It was the only chance at getting it.
Wasn't a bad call, but a bad schematic of the play by taking Chubb off the field.
If you watch the play again I believe Baker would have had no problem picking up the first down if he had gone straight up the middle.
Y'know, I watched the play from the perspective of where Baker went and not where he didn't go.. but you are right. The center and LG absolutely blew their guys 2-3 yards off the LOS.. if Baker tucks in behind them, looks like an easy first down.
I came into this season with high hopes. I did not anticipate what has happened at all.
When you look at the success rate of head coaches it sucks.
Head coaches don't last long. A few hold on.
The success of a franchise is tied to more than the head coach. It is more organizational structure.
All these coaches that have been hired by any team were in competition with many others. They all went through an exhausting hiring process. Their success or failure to win is not just on them. they can not all have been that bad.
Yet every year the death watch is on.
No matter how it is looked by the owner. In the end coaches survive on wins alone. Sad but true. Because what may get overlooked are great coaches in bad situations. They have done a great job to get 4 wins. And in the end they get wacked.
Can we just let monken call plays first before we fire him?
Like...can we try that first? Maybe Freddie is a decent HC with just far too much on his plate.
I think Kitchen is a good play caller and deserves the right to sink or swim running the offense the way he wants. I don't like the idea of forcing a HC to do something. The HC is the leader and taking playcalling away or forcing any other decision undermines his authority.
If people liked his playcalling last year then they should let him work his way through the struggles this year. Being a HC is a much bigger and different job then merely being a playcaller. And I think his playcalling will improve once/IF he gets a handle on leading the entire team (to include coaches, staff and players).
Becoming a good franchise requires stability....its not an overnight job.
Just wondering if Freddie is coaching for his job?
What end result will be acceptable for Dorsey?
Of course if we win out; he will be safe.
9-7 Most likely.
8-8 Not real sure about that.
7-9 I doubt he survives.
Dorsey made the hire. He would like to be rewarded but only if he feels that Freddie met his expectations.
Dorsey will have his ear to the ground. He will have a gauge on the team moral. He will know how the players have responded to Freddie. Dorsey will also know how Freddie's staff is holding up.
The best thing that could happen is a 10-6 record and a wildcard berth.
Most of the Board has issues with Freddie. No question many of them justified.
For me, I want continuity for many reasons, but mostly for team growth. Go into next season with as little change as possible. That means familiarity for the players with the schemes. It also means the coaches know their players better. It also means the draft and any new players added are done so to fit into what is being built.
Players who fit into the schemes. Or guys added to fit roles.
Change is appropriate when a team has reached a dead end. That what has been tried has not worked as expected. That players have not developed and not reached their potential. That obvious things like game management and game plans were not handled well. That in fighting among the coaching staff is prevalent.
If we could win 9 or 10 games all the pain and uncertainty that comes with a new staff is not there to contend with.
I think he is safe unless we lose a bunch of the 5 games left to play. First year growing pains will be the reasoning. Baker turning around the last three games probably saved him.
Safe in his case ought to include some work on his weaknesses and a candid chat about expectations for next year. Not sure he is safe as he might lead you to believe.
What was it that John Dorsey said before the first game of the season?....
Quote: Dorsey knows the schedule is demanding, especially the first eight games. He also knows he’s added a lot of new players and coaches.
It takes some time for it to blend together.“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.”
I'm not trying to predict what potential changes might be in store for the franchise but looking at Dorsey's comments before the season started...I would say that Dorsey nailed it.
The team struggled early in the season due to the schedule and the time needed for the team to gel. Hopefully the offense will continue to improve as the coaching staff and players settle in.
(Quoting John Dorsey) “I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.”
That line is SO OLD!!!
Team hasn't done anything in 25 years except make the steelers and ravens look good and talk about 5 year plans, and tell me which year was the "one good year",
Better off, just say "no comment", just say "it's a work in progress." or "next question."...
If Freddie can win at least 7-8 games he should be safe IMO
I will admit he has done some dumb things this year, and im not really a fan, but we have to be fair and give him a chance. one year isn't a chance. I do think he needs to grow a spine and be more disciplinarian towards the team and not let these guys get out of control. this is his first year as a HC, I hopeful he will learn.
There’s no way he gets fired unless there’s a total meltdown down the stretch ... nor should he be ... thats just FRUSTRATED FAN speak .... and for once i don’t blame the dolts for wanting to see heads roll ... its way pre-mature but i understand the frustration .... expectations were high as they should have been .... the talent was there ....
Not sure i could have been more wrong about Freddie ... he’s been way worse than i could have ever imagined ... the list is long ..
- worse than Hue when it come to clock management ... he’s done some incredibly stupid things ...
- hard headed and outthinking himself .... empty backfields inside the 10 MULTIPLE TIMES ... i get trying it ... but he kept doing it eveN after it was clear it wasn’t going to work ... many many more play calling bafoonery ...
That ones shocking ... he’s smarter than that ... at least i thought he was ....
- adjustments ... we move the ball on the first drive almost every game ... sometimes we move it for 2 or 3 series ... then we go into the tank and hardly move the ball after that ....
Everything has gotten better over the last 3 or 4 weeks ... how much of that is Freddie learning vs how much of that is due to the talent were facing ... who knows .... he’s clearly improving ....
He does get a bad rap on the discipline and penalties ... thats not on him .... he adressed it in TC ...
Freddie deserves 3 years just like everyone else ... the thief doesn’t agree with that concept .. *L* ....
Unless Freddie loses the locker room he’s not going anywhere after this year ...
He still may be fast enough to corner if he gets a good play fake out of a back that needs respected. Not the best play call, and what you say strikes me as correct, but not totally out of the question. It would be something a defense would need to be aware of just to complicate their processing, even if it doesn't work well.
Favorable end of the year schedule was a blessing for Freddie.
As others have said, Freddie should be safe unless he just completely messes these last few games up. With the team gaining momentum and chemistry, I don't think Freddie can mess this up even if he tried.
I actually don't mind him wearing the shirt. Steelers have been so disrespectful over the years, it's about time we start walking with confidence, not afraid to speak our minds. It would mean more to me if Freddie didn't apologize to Tomlin the night of the incident tho. But o well.
Agreed. We have to keep him simply because things have looked better the last few games. He's learning and along with the players coming together it's a positive sign. If Freddie can go at least 3-2 the rest of the season he should be safe.
Finish strong and he will be fine. .50 improvement or 8-8 isn't strong, however. So I am thinking he needs to go at least 9-7. Wins in the division def help, but a wildcard will be the clincher. Go 10-6 and he will for sure have job security.
As long as he doesn't do stupid things like running Hilliard on 3rd and goal or that stupid forward lop pass to the WR/RB in motion that has thus far NEVER worked. We should be ok.
He just beat Pittsburgh and Baltimore in the same year and people want him fired. I don't get it.
Based on his coaching and play calling in the first 6 games of the season - anyone deeply concerned about Freddie was absolutely right to be so. I still am. He's shown a modicum of improvement - penalties have been better but he has still made wrong calls during games and shown pee poor time management. At multiple times in the season when it was crunch time and HC needed to step up he looked totally lost - a proverbial deer in the headlights. Whether it was challenging plays because of emotional players or running hurry up offense with a lead....
I hope he makes it. But he has to get better. Wearing a Tee shirt isn't going to make me like him better one way or the other.
I agree with this take in part. He has improved and certainly has upside. I respect he has a learning curve as well. His improvement overall against himself personally is evident, mostly these last few games. His HC against his peers leaves him short. I want the sideline game to be stronger. Not for firing, but get a fire under his hoop to finish hard. See what he has for Steelers. Might hand over some calls in the RZ.
He hit his lottery. He can go now. He is NOT an NFL head coach. Even the most casual viewer can see this. Bad move by Dorsey. He will fix it this off season.
Feel sorry for BM's play today. We just looked lost. Offense looked worse than it should have. Defense and tackling are not priorities. We made the Stoolies look great today.
I thought we looked confused and indifferent today. Play for more tackle and less strip. We were insipid and BM made it worse than it was IMO.
He hit his lottery. He can go now. He is NOT an NFL head coach. Even the most casual viewer can see this. Bad move by Dorsey. He will fix it this off season.
Exactly what did he do today to deserve to get fired for? ...
I’d appreciate some specifics as opposed to the menZas brilliant take of he sucks ...
No one had higher expectations than me before the season for both the team and Freddie ... I’m as disappointed as anyone ... Freddie has done some dumb butt crap but i see zero reason to fire him other than a bunch of frustrated dolts ,,,
So please help me out here ... what did Freddie do today to deserve to get fired? ...
It's not all Freddie, but he's definitely part of the problem.
The question is how big of a part is he, can he get better, and are you willing to roll the dice that he does?
One huge consideration is either Baker isn't very good or he's regressed under Kitchens. If you believe he's regressed and are still committed to him as your QB do you want Freddie coaching him?
I think some serious discussions and considerations will be on the table at season's end. I think it's likely Freddie gets another season, but if Baker still hasn't taken the next step you've now wasted three of his rookie contract years and don't have any idea if he's the guy. And you also may be looking for a new coach.
U guys are putting way to much on Freddie ... hes been horrible at times but no way does he deserve to be fired ... not a shot in hell ...
I don't want him fired, yet anyway. He's got to stop with the Junior Samples moments. I really think he's in over his head calling plays and (mis)managing the games. His team folded on him today.
I'm OK with them canning Freddie. Don't really understand why he was hired to begin with. I gave him the benefit of the doubt which is now gone due to poor play of the team. The thing that concerns me is can we get a good replacement with the track record we have? I don't think that can be factored into the equation...but...
1999 Chris Palmer 2000 Chris Palmer 2001 Butch Davis 2002 Butch Davis 2003 Butch Davis 2004 Butch Davis / Terry Robiskie 2005 Romeo Crennel 2006 Romeo Crennel 2007 Romeo Crennel 2008 Romeo Crennel 2009 Eric Mangini 2010 Eric Mangini 2011 Pat Shurmur 2012 Pat Shurmur 2013 Rod Chudzinski 2014 Mike Pettine 2015 Mike Pettine 2016 Hue Jackson 2017 Hue Jackson 2018 Hue Jackson/Gregg Williams 2019 Freddie Kitchens 2020?
This is our list of head coaches, including interim, since Browns came back as an expansion team. 11 head coaches for 21 seasons. 9 if you exclude the interim coaches (Terry Robiski & Gregg Williams). So thats basically either 1.9 years/coach or 2.3 years/coach, depending if you include interim.
Since Haslam got the team obviously it is worse. I think he got the team in the 2012 season if I remember correctly. So in 8 seasons, Haslam has had 6 head coaches. That includes Shurmur (who wasn't his guy) and Gregg Williams... even if you don't include those guys, he has fired 4 of his own head coaching choices. That is basically 2 years per coach (or less).
As I said above... I would *NOT* hang on to Kitchens for the sake of hanging on. How much time do you give a coaching staff to get it right? 3 years probably is a good time table. At least it would make coaches more likely to come here. I think it makes it harder to get assistant coaches too. Who wants to move their family after a year....
I have a bad feeling that they keep Kitchens if he wins a couple more games.
There is a reason we have to replace Freddie; he's a special kind of stupid. His going to the air week after week and abandoning the run, even after he recognized this publicly as the wrong thing to do, shows he just can't do the right things consistently or even follow his own advice. GTG Fred.
There is a reason we have to replace Freddie; he's a special kind of stupid. His going to the air week after week and abandoning the run, even after he recognized this publicly as the wrong thing to do, shows he just can't do the right things consistently or even follow his own advice. GTG Fred.
I don't think Freddie abandons the run per se.
It's that the offense has no identity or flow. No rhyme or reason to it. He runs when he should pass. He passes when he should run. He goes empty backfield on running plays completely eliminating any doubt that it will be a pass. He takes shots on down and long to go when you should be taking shots on down and short to go. The players don't seem to really know what they're doing or where they're supposed to be. How many times a game including this one do you see Baker correcting guys on where they should be? It's week freaking 12. How many times are we getting to the line with like 7 or 8 seconds to go.
No, this isn't a he isn't running enough problem. I think people are confused. This is a complete offense problem with multiple issues.
It's pathetic quite frankly. The fans deserve better.
One big thing I’ve noticed: Our PA game is non-existent, or at the very least ineffective. We don’t have plays that build off one another .. we kinda just seem to call stuff to throw it against the wall hoping it sticks.
When we’re in the shotgun so much, the PA game doesn’t work and Baker just haphazardly fakes it to the back ... never sells anything
I did not know Freddie has a fan club but I do know that if you add up the nfl play calling experience of the geniuses on here it would add up to about, oh, maybe 0. Anybody who puts any credence into these critiques probably gets their symptoms diagnosed and treated by the counter guy at the local Burger King. That would make just about as much sense.
I think a lot of this goes to the head coach calling plays. The HC has to watch the whole game and make decisions, such as when to go for it, when to challenge and other stuff. The OC can just focus on calling plays. If the OC is calling plays, then he already has three or four plays ready when the ball is placed, cause he's looking at the playbook during the previous play. If the HC is calling them, he's waiting for the result of the play to decide which plays to call. Not sure how the Browns do it, but most teams call 3 plays in the huddle, and then decided when they get to the oine which one to run, (I know that's what Manning did in Indy) but if the HC is calling them, then the plays are getting in late so the team is rushed and that's when the penalties start.
Also, call plays that are tailored to your team. Yesterday, they said we are like second in the league in points on opening drive, that's because those plays are scripted. Then, once those plays are run, it's Air Freddie the rest of the way. We had way too many 5 and 7 step dropbacks against the Steelers, their Dline is way to good for that. We need more quick throws, draw plays and screens. Our Oline is not that good, and we had a backup tackle in the game. So, get the ball out of Baker's hands faster.
One more thing, NO MORE EMPTY SETS INSIDE THE 10 YARD LINE. You got Chubb (1200 yrds) and Hunt (2017 rushing champ) put those guys back there and let them work.
I did not know Freddie has a fan club but I do know that if you add up the nfl play calling experience of the geniuses on here it would add up to about, oh, maybe 0. Anybody who puts any credence into these critiques probably gets their symptoms diagnosed and treated by the counter guy at the local Burger King. That would make just about as much sense.
I mentioned in the Post Game thread - the lack of experience of fans at the NFL level means we can't comment on what's being called each week by FK? In Post Game you laughed at the idea fans would be better than Freddie at calling plays ... and I responded that wasn't the point - is it? It's all about how Freddie performs and if you think he's doing a good job. If you think calling 6 running plays the entire second half is giving the team the best chance to win the game and execute?
Then you said it was about players not executing - and I mentioned that sounded a lot like Hue. Hue called perfect plays every single snap but they team sucked. . . . OR maybe the coach needs to call and design plays his players can consistently execute.
Then you talked about how good the Pit D was and how much pressure Baker was under ... and a couple of people asked whether it was good play calling to continue not to double team their best pass rusher ... whether it wouldn't have been good too see the RB's chip their edge rushers. Whether it was still a good idea to continue to call mostly pass plays that took receivers on medium or deep patterns that needed time to get open.
I'd say any/all of those questions and observations are valid. It doesn't deserve a derogatory response to sarcastically be referred to as 'geniuses' for wanting to see improvement from Freddie ... the guy who looked like a deer in the headlights in the biggest moments of the biggest games this season. . . . I've said it consistently from about game 3 - Freddie's ability to be a HC and OC worries me and I want to see improvement. The penalties have improved, the play calling has improved and has been good here and there. It has not been consistently good. and there has been some damn right awful too. Early in the season Freddie consistently panicked and went pass happy. He did it again yesterday and we have one of the best - if not the very best - RB duo in all of the NFL available in the backfield. AND what worked on the long drives in the first half? ... the running game. And then we ran the ball 6 flipping times 2nd half in a game we were never down by more than 10 points.
"Freddie is an idiot" "Coach stinks" "why give motivation to the other team" "no discipline"
literally just spent an entire segment on how the HC is supposed to deal with distractions, not create them.
Sad, I have to agree.
I'm afraid that that says a lot as to why we have so many issues with discipline and unnecessary distractions. It's 'just a T-shirt' when you show up and win...it's a needless distraction when you lay an egg. I don't think even BB or John Harbaugh would bother to take that chance.
It's time to take away play-calling from FK. And YES...I know and understand that that is why he got the gig in the first place. BUT...he's either failing at what we thought he could do...OR...he's doing what he WANTS to see work rather than what has a good chance to work. He is not the OC we had the last 7 ish games of last year.
This experiment isn't working. The plan was decent with a rookie HC and two experienced coordinators beside him. But we have not gotten better as the season has progressed...our offensive flow outside the "script" is non-existent...our defense has no teeth outside a handful of players...our opponent has/gets our 'number' without even needing the benefit of the halftime break to stifle/beat us.
When you try to 'catch lightning in a bottle' and fail to do so. You shouldn't then pivot to playing the 'continuity card' as your sole/primary justification for not moving on.
It didn't work...it's not improving...next man up.
You don't hire a running backs coach as your head coach and expect them to be a master.
Too many injuries, too many "player" problems, Myles, Baker not playing well early (partially scheme), lots of what I would call "unlucky" turnovers.
In addition, entirely new staff, rookie HC, one of the youngest rosters in the league, Two corners sitting with hammys for friggin 4 weeks.
Randall clearly disgruntled with his contract situation. The whitehead incident.
It looks like what you might think if you aren't a Browns fan....rookie HC, installing two new schemes looking extremely sloppy the first half of the season. Unquestionably, despite this loss the team has looked a lot better lately and I trust will turn some heads playing Arizona and the Bengals twice.
I’d bring Gregg Williams back. I don’t need him to call an offense or a defense. Leave those to coordinators. I just need him to coach a disciplined team and create a fire under these players. If this was a disciplined team that was serious and took itself seriously from Week 1 I have no doubt we’d be pushing Baltimore for the top in the division
A lot. The Duck was instructed to throw it up every time that happened. Our corners suck.
Smart coaching by Tomlin. Have Duck throw a bunch of 50/50 jump balls. With the amount of pass interference called in today's game, why not take the chance?
Browns never challenged deep unless they were chucking 65 yard passes before the half. Which that sequence of events was another level of stupidity.
I'm not an the fire-Freddie bandwagon, but I am checking to see if there's a seat for me, and here's my reason...
He's shown he can't/won't learn from his mistakes. For me, that's a big one because keeping him here hinges almost entirely on him getting a whole lot better in a very short amount of time.
I'm not an the fire-Freddie bandwagon, but I am checking to see if there's a seat for me, and here's my reason...
He's shown he can't/won't learn from his mistakes. For me, that's a big one because keeping him here hinges almost entirely on him getting a whole lot better in a very short amount of time.
I’d like to add this crap philosophy of “1-0” when you’ve reached a game described as having a playoff atmosphere and real world implications. I get not wanting to let the team to get distracted by the remaining schedule. But this game should have been played with a sense of urgency as if it was THE game that would put them in the playoffs next week. But instead this team came out flat and uninspired. But that’s ok because we can always go “1-0” next week.
If he’s retained I hope he spends a lot of time seriously trying to sort out his philosophy.
IMO the bottom line is Freddie was hired as HC because he and Baker worked so well together last year. You can't blame John Dorsey because it looked like we caught lighting in a bottle. The O looked great and then we added OBJ. We took a shot with Freddie and it hasn't worked out but it did look like a shot worth taking. At the end of the season it all has to be evaluated and decisions have to be made. It's not the Haslams fault or JD's fault. It was a shot worth taking. JMO
I agree with Homewood Dog. Freddie was a shot worth taking based on last year.
Now, the people who get paid lots of money to administrate need to make the best decision moving forward. Admit that the shot did not work as expected. Chalk it up, and hire someone better for next year. This guy ain't making it.
The Haslams set the culture and tone of the organization. It was cute early on when the Browns players and HC were talking trash and acting like they arrived before playing a single down. Now, they're losers and still talking.
Players have attitude issues, get suspended for drug violations and are immediately rewarded with playing time only to have it burn the Browns. Training camp participation is seemingly optional for some. Lack of discipline team wide. One of the most immature teams I can remember.
Freddie preached focusing on eliminating outside distractions, not to become a distraction to the team, move forward to the next game and keep the rest in the past. He then proceeds to wear a 'Pittsburgh Started It' t-shirt and gets embarrassed by a team starting their 3rd string QB for the second time this season and then doubles down on his decision during his postgame presser.
This is absolutely the type of culture permitted by the Haslams and to a reasonable extent Dorsey. But, ultimately, it starts all the way at the top.
What good would it do? I mean people worry about things all the time. Yet it has zero impact on the outcome of anything. It's just an added distraction that does no good.
As far as I'm concerned I hope he manages to stay focused on each upcoming game and doesn't allow himself to worry about things that worrying can't change.
Hi guys, sorry I haven't tweeted in a while. I had the damndest time finding another "Free 1000 Hours" AOL disc.
Anyways, ready for a rational #Browns take?
The Browns are almost exactly where they were supposed to be
When Dorsey hired Freddie he wasnt planning on competing for a Super Bowl this year. He was planning on 2020-2022 (when all the rookie deals expire). Thats why he hired Freddie, to grow with this team and QB.
“The first task at hand is be very competitive in the AFC North and see what unfolds because it all starts there, and pick up where you left off in 2018 and dare to set your expectations high. Why not?" - Dorsey at his year end presser. They def have accomplished the first task
Then OBJ becomes available and they trade for him (which you ABSOLUTELY have to do if you have the chance) and all of a sudden expectations change and this is a team that supposed to compete for the SB. Thats a huge leap to make, especially for a team this young.
So if the OBJ trade is never made, were frustrated w Freddie & this team, sure. But were also saying damn thats 1 of the most talented young teams in the NFL and prob will be a contender next yr if they stop sabotaging themselves.
One trade changed the optics but not the reality
That doesnt mean Freddies the guy & this team def shouldnt have bought into its own hype & theres no guarantee this whole thing will ever even work. But the fact still remains that building a winner (especially for an org that has losing so deeply engrained in its DNA) takes time
For most teams that make the big jump “out of nowhere” you can actually see an incubation period right before it. One where theyre accumulating talent, learning how to win on the road and in big games etc.
So this all feels like the end of the world but in reality this is just the beginning of long ride with this team over the next few seasons, for better or worse
just want to remind the board that with all the crazy injuries and coaching nonsense in NY...the jets have the #6 overall defense, led by gregg williams.
The Haslams set the culture and tone of the organization. It was cute early on when the Browns players and HC were talking trash and acting like they arrived before playing a single down. Now, they're losers and still talking.
Players have attitude issues, get suspended for drug violations and are immediately rewarded with playing time only to have it burn the Browns. Training camp participation is seemingly optional for some. Lack of discipline team wide. One of the most immature teams I can remember.
Freddie preached focusing on eliminating outside distractions, not to become a distraction to the team, move forward to the next game and keep the rest in the past. He then proceeds to wear a 'Pittsburgh Started It' t-shirt and gets embarrassed by a team starting their 3rd string QB for the second time this season and then doubles down on his decision during his postgame presser.
This is absolutely the type of culture permitted by the Haslams and to a reasonable extent Dorsey. But, ultimately, it starts all the way at the top.
I disagree with that. Coaches and GM set the culture.
Haslam hired Dorsey. Everybody was very happy when that happened. Dorsey picked his coach. Some people shrugged their shoulders, but said, ok....now it is Haslams problem?
Had people been questioning the Dorsey pick, maybe you would have a point, but they didn't, and you don't.
The Haslams set the culture and tone of the organization. It was cute early on when the Browns players and HC were talking trash and acting like they arrived before playing a single down. Now, they're losers and still talking.
Players have attitude issues, get suspended for drug violations and are immediately rewarded with playing time only to have it burn the Browns. Training camp participation is seemingly optional for some. Lack of discipline team wide. One of the most immature teams I can remember.
Freddie preached focusing on eliminating outside distractions, not to become a distraction to the team, move forward to the next game and keep the rest in the past. He then proceeds to wear a 'Pittsburgh Started It' t-shirt and gets embarrassed by a team starting their 3rd string QB for the second time this season and then doubles down on his decision during his postgame presser.
This is absolutely the type of culture permitted by the Haslams and to a reasonable extent Dorsey. But, ultimately, it starts all the way at the top.
I disagree with that. Coaches and GM set the culture.
Haslam hired Dorsey. Everybody was very happy when that happened. Dorsey picked his coach. Some people shrugged their shoulders, but said, ok....now it is Haslams problem?
Had people been questioning the Dorsey pick, maybe you would have a point, but they didn't, and you don't.
The Haslam's, specifically, Jimmy has always been a problem.
Hysterical. I can't imagine believing ownership does not set the culture of a franchise.
100% this starts with the Haslams. They created the situation that pitted Depo against Dorsey. They created an environment where it was about getting your way, not what was best for the Browns. What's the quote that gets attributed to Dorsey..."I flexed my muscle" after he got Freddie? Haslam also apparently wanted Freddie. Why is Haslam even giving his opinion?
Owners set the direction of the organization and create the culture, standards, etc. They are supposed to hire people who share in that vision and can execute it.
This isn't news. This is true of any organization. The successful ones have strong leadership at the top that get those decisions right and are successful at establishing the culture.
The proof of whether they are successful in doing this is through the strength and quality of the product or service they provide.
Very few organizations succeed when the top leadership is weak.
And the Browns are one of the least successful football teams under the Haslams' leadership.
All good points. But how involved do you want your owner to be in the mid to ground level operations? It’s one thing to establish the “mission statement” but it’s another to actively influence it.
So what is it exactly we want Jimmy to do? We all agree we don’t want him picking the roster. I think most see the sense in letting his GM pick the coaches l, if nothing else that to avoid establishing that weird GM and HC don’t answer to each other.
Should Jimmy step in when he doesn’t see his HC or GM making more of an effort to get OBJ to attend workouts? What about the inconsistency with play calling? Or Freddie not running a disciplined team for at least the first half of the year? If he sits back and trusts the people in place to work it out, he’s accused of being derelict in his duties. If he hangs Dorsey and/or Freddie’s jobs over their head or fires people outright, then he’s accused of running an unstable organization. I think there’s legit pros and cons to both sides.
But I think before we can assign blame or responsibility for what the culture IS (which may not reflect what it’s supposed to be) we need to define the role of each person within.
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Knee-jerk Cleveland is in full effect this week. A lot of people seem ready for the Browns to once again lead the league in immediate reactions to failure, because why try to improve a problem when you can cut it loose and bring in another problem?
Minds have been made up over a T-shirt at a movie, and if the analysis of Freddie Kitchens’ 12-game tenure is that it should end because he didn’t zip up his jacket before taking a selfie with a fan on his birthday …
You understand this isn’t normal, right?
This isn’t a defense of Kitchens, just a reminder that talk of firing a coach after 12 games only happens in a place that thinks firing is a normal solution to losing. Lose. Fire. Then win, right?
In the last 10 years in the NFL, since the 2010 season, 97 men have been employed as full-time head coaches. How many were fired after a single season?
Six.
And all their teams won immediately with the new coach. Oh, wait, no they didn’t.
Hue Jackson, fired after going 8-8 with Oakland in 2011. Hey, it’s Hue. The Raiders hired Dennis Allen, and then won 4, 4, and 3 games the next three years. And Jackson eventually found his way to Cleveland. Mike Mularkey, fired after going 2-14 with Jacksonville in 2012. Gus Bradley followed him and Jacksonville won 4, 3, 5 and 3 games over the next four seasons. Rob Chudzinski, fired after going 4-12 with the Browns in 2013. In came Mike Pettine for 10 wins in two years. Jim Tomsula, fired after going 5-11 with San Francisco in 2015. In came Chip Kelly and … Chip Kelly, fired after going 2-14 with San Francisco in 2016. The quick fix was quick, but it wasn’t a fix. Kyle Shanahan arrived and was allowed to settle in, and after winning 6 and 4 games his first two seasons, the 49ers might fight for a spot in the Super Bowl. Steve Wilks, fired after going 3-13 with Arizona in 2018. The Cardinals drafted quarterback Kyler Murray at No. 1 and hired Kliff Kingsbury to run an offense to fit him, and Arizona is currently 3-8-1. I’m not against firing coaches. When Jackson was fired by the Browns after 2 1/2 seasons, I wrote that no coach ever deserved it more. But usually, if you fire a coach after one season, it just shows that you’re the type of franchise that finds it acceptable to fire a coach after one season.
There’s been a lot of discussion of the Browns lacking discipline and maturity, but I think there’s been the same lack of discipline and maturity in the way we analyze this team.
Cleveland is where nuance goes to die. My priority is for what’s best for the fans, and that would be what’s best for the franchise. Another pelt for the Cleveland Wall of Disappointment isn’t necessarily that. If you looked at last week and thought, "Mike Tomlin would never do that,” well, yeah, if the Browns could get Mike Tomlin, then great. Kitchens isn’t Tomlin just like he isn’t John Harbaugh or Bill Belichick, and along with Sean Payton of the Saints, they are the four NFL coaches in their jobs for at least 10 years.
If no more Kitchens would mean one of them, do it. But otherwise, the league is filled with coaches who make mistakes, but learn; who aren’t perfect, but win; who have bad stretches, but remain the right employee for that time.
During the entire offseason, I begged fans to forget the past and judge this team on its talent and its merits. The talent is there; the 5-7 record certainly merits frustration. But there is a toxicity around the Browns that I think can affect those new to it. The Browns so often have tried to be tough this season because they can always feel like they’re fighting back. Every loss is a disaster and every T-shirt is a catastrophe, and while the Browns often bring it on themselves, the franchise has reached a point where it never gets a pass.
Every problem needs an immediate answer, when sometimes what you need to find a solution is time.
Bill O’Brien has been criticized in Houston and Jason Garrett has been criticized in Dallas, and both might make the playoffs this season in years six and 10 of their tenures.
Doug Pedersen in Philadelphia (now 5-7) and Matt Nagy in Chicago (now 6-6) both won with young quarterbacks in the past and now have records like the Browns.
Sean McVay and the Rams were a model for the modern NFL when they made the Super Bowl last season, and this year at 7-5 they’re a cautionary tale for blowing all your salary cap space.
You might think you know what’s wrong with the Browns this season. But Baker Mayfield has played better after a slow start; the Browns had at least 80 yards in penalties in four of their first seven games, but have topped that once in their last five games; and when it comes to discipline, they cut Jermaine Whitehead and Antonio Callaway because of off-field issues and Kitchens left starting safety Damarious Randall home from Pittsburgh because of something that wasn’t an injury. They’re trying to hold guys accountable.
The right side of the offensive line, guard Wyatt Teller and tackle Chris Hubbard, features two of the worst run-blockers in the league, and most complaints about the Browns not running, or failing in the red zone, start there. Thirteen points against the Steelers wasn’t enough, and the offense had to be better on a day like that. But I think that’s a “change a couple assistants and rebuild the offensive line” kind of solution. Not a “pelt for the wall” solution.
Kitchens faked a field goal and pooch-punted to the 1-yard line late Sunday when down 7, hoping to get a safety and get the ball back with a chance to drive for the win. That would have been a fantastic time to have Myles Garrett on the field. But we know why he’s not there. Once the Browns gave up an 11-yard run from 1, they were all but done.
So let’s talk about what needs to be fixed: better ways to use Odell Beckham; the high-priced defense getting stops when needed; and a couple of those major holes on the offensive line.
But can we talk about it without moving right to firing the coach? Or do we lack the discipline for that?
How do you discuss how to fix the things wrong with the team without discussing the man primarily responsible for those fixes? OBJ, play calling, discipline, attitude, lack of mental fortitude... all roads lead to Freddie’s responsibility to fix. And yes we’ve seen some progress a few weeks before this last game, but it’s occurred after weeks of denial I.e. the penalties and discipline.
Freddie may very well become a good to great HC, but he’s not showing that potential this season so far. The question then becomes how much time and money are we supposed to spend watching the Education of Freddie Kitchens instead of consistent professional football until he does blossom? Yeah Hue Jackson got more than 2 seasons... but the same reasons people had for wanting him gone then we’re the same reasons they wanted him gone over a year prior. What did the Browns gain by keeping him an extra year?
If Freddie still can’t to this day decide what he wants his offense to be, he needs to go.
All good points. But how involved do you want your owner to be in the mid to ground level operations? It’s one thing to establish the “mission statement” but it’s another to actively influence it.
So what is it exactly we want Jimmy to do? We all agree we don’t want him picking the roster. I think most see the sense in letting his GM pick the coaches l, if nothing else that to avoid establishing that weird GM and HC don’t answer to each other.
Should Jimmy step in when he doesn’t see his HC or GM making more of an effort to get OBJ to attend workouts? What about the inconsistency with play calling? Or Freddie not running a disciplined team for at least the first half of the year? If he sits back and trusts the people in place to work it out, he’s accused of being derelict in his duties. If he hangs Dorsey and/or Freddie’s jobs over their head or fires people outright, then he’s accused of running an unstable organization. I think there’s legit pros and cons to both sides.
But I think before we can assign blame or responsibility for what the culture IS (which may not reflect what it’s supposed to be) we need to define the role of each person within.
You get it.
The same people saying Haslam has to set the culture are the same people who were saying that once we hired Dorsey the Haslams needed to step aside and shut-up. Let the football people do their job.
All good points. But how involved do you want your owner to be in the mid to ground level operations? It’s one thing to establish the “mission statement” but it’s another to actively influence it.
So what is it exactly we want Jimmy to do? We all agree we don’t want him picking the roster. I think most see the sense in letting his GM pick the coaches l, if nothing else that to avoid establishing that weird GM and HC don’t answer to each other.
Should Jimmy step in when he doesn’t see his HC or GM making more of an effort to get OBJ to attend workouts? What about the inconsistency with play calling? Or Freddie not running a disciplined team for at least the first half of the year? If he sits back and trusts the people in place to work it out, he’s accused of being derelict in his duties. If he hangs Dorsey and/or Freddie’s jobs over their head or fires people outright, then he’s accused of running an unstable organization. I think there’s legit pros and cons to both sides.
But I think before we can assign blame or responsibility for what the culture IS (which may not reflect what it’s supposed to be) we need to define the role of each person within.
You get it.
The same people saying Haslam has to set the culture are the same people who were saying that once we hired Dorsey the Haslams needed to step aside and shut-up. Let the football people do their job.
The "football people" are not doing their job though. That's the problem, Peen. All that talent Dorsey accumulated means jack squat if they play for themselves. All that talent, and Dorsey forgot one thing - the willingness to run through a brickwall for the guy next to you. We got guys that want numbers and not wins. We got guys that want commercials and brands over TDs and victories.
Its not a coincidence, that the two best things we have on offense right now are Hunt and Chubb, and they are playing the most unselfish football you can.
The rest of the team, Baker included - are more worried about SI covers and followers on Twitter are having the worst seasons in their careers. Coincidence? Culture. Team. Hard work. Three things the team has sorely missed this year.
I would rather have 3 Edelmans over 3 OBJs any day of the week. OBJ is above and beyond more talented that Edelman - yet Edelman puts in the work, and his team knows he will be there each and every day 110% to the max.
Does that mean OBJ isn't a hard worker. He is. He trains hard, he works on his craft. Problem is, he only trains for himself, he only trains on HIS CRAFT. He doesn't train for the betterment of the team - he trains to make HIS 1 handed catches, while easy balls are bouncing off his facemask.
Give me 3 guys with heart and drive, over 3 OBJs and AB's any day of the week.
Want another example - Ju Ju Smith. The kid last year was humble, worked hard, loved in the locker room in Pitts. He then became a fan favorite. Know, he spent all offseason building a "brand" on social media, always has a camera crew around when hes doing something, and is absolutely turning into a ME guy. You can see that with his on the field performance as well.
Who knows what the Browns will do at season end. At best we are now on course for 9-7. However, I don't see us beating Baltimore and AZ may be a trap game. So, is 8-8 ok? Is a .50 improvement ok with the amount of money spent in the offseason? Kitchens keeps reminding us that this is a young roster, which it is, however, we have lost some truly bad games. TN torched us in an undisciplined hotmess, LA loss due to coaching blunders, Seattle we should have won, Denver was an embarrassment, Niners annihilated us, Pittsburgh we should have cruised in the 2nd half to a victory, but our coach gave up on his run game and still can't seem to get the ball to his star acquisition.
I am willing to bet that if we lose to the Bengals, who would like to do nothing more than embarrass us, then it could be the straw that broke the camels back.
Also, have I read reports that the Haslam's were talked into hiring FK by Dorsey? How committed are they to him and why are things so silent? Dorsey did one presser at the bye week, but has been silent and virtually invisible this season.
All good points. But how involved do you want your owner to be in the mid to ground level operations? It’s one thing to establish the “mission statement” but it’s another to actively influence it.
So what is it exactly we want Jimmy to do? We all agree we don’t want him picking the roster. I think most see the sense in letting his GM pick the coaches l, if nothing else that to avoid establishing that weird GM and HC don’t answer to each other.
Should Jimmy step in when he doesn’t see his HC or GM making more of an effort to get OBJ to attend workouts? What about the inconsistency with play calling? Or Freddie not running a disciplined team for at least the first half of the year? If he sits back and trusts the people in place to work it out, he’s accused of being derelict in his duties. If he hangs Dorsey and/or Freddie’s jobs over their head or fires people outright, then he’s accused of running an unstable organization. I think there’s legit pros and cons to both sides.
But I think before we can assign blame or responsibility for what the culture IS (which may not reflect what it’s supposed to be) we need to define the role of each person within.
You get it.
The same people saying Haslam has to set the culture are the same people who were saying that once we hired Dorsey the Haslams needed to step aside and shut-up. Let the football people do their job.
The "football people" are not doing their job though. That's the problem, Peen. All that talent Dorsey accumulated means jack squat if they play for themselves. All that talent, and Dorsey forgot one thing - the willingness to run through a brickwall for the guy next to you. We got guys that want numbers and not wins. We got guys that want commercials and brands over TDs and victories.
Its not a coincidence, that the two best things we have on offense right now are Hunt and Chubb, and they are playing the most unselfish football you can.
The rest of the team, Baker included - are more worried about SI covers and followers on Twitter are having the worst seasons in their careers. Coincidence? Culture. Team. Hard work. Three things the team has sorely missed this year.
I would rather have 3 Edelmans over 3 OBJs any day of the week. OBJ is above and beyond more talented that Edelman - yet Edelman puts in the work, and his team knows he will be there each and every day 110% to the max.
Does that mean OBJ isn't a hard worker. He is. He trains hard, he works on his craft. Problem is, he only trains for himself, he only trains on HIS CRAFT. He doesn't train for the betterment of the team - he trains to make HIS 1 handed catches, while easy balls are bouncing off his facemask.
Give me 3 guys with heart and drive, over 3 OBJs and AB's any day of the week.
Want another example - Ju Ju Smith. The kid last year was humble, worked hard, loved in the locker room in Pitts. He then became a fan favorite. Know, he spent all offseason building a "brand" on social media, always has a camera crew around when hes doing something, and is absolutely turning into a ME guy. You can see that with his on the field performance as well.
I get your point, but the only thing behind/backing up the points you're laying out is frustration. OBJ, knucklehead he may be, puts in the work (as you said). How do you know his workout routine? With how much Baker throws behind/over/in front of him, practicing the 1-handers probably IS the best thing for the team...
To build off of Devildawgs post, we just got Haslam out of the thick of things in Berea. How quickly everyone forgets that ESPN article laying out the absurdity that was going on directly because of Haslam. We finally get him out of the way, and people are saying all this is on him, and he needs to go in and fix it? Wow.... again, how quickly we forget.
This team, and our coach needed time and (as it turns out) a healthy dose of humble pie. They got the latter...
I think the other thing worth remembering is how is all this drama and noise going down upstairs in Dorsey's office and even more so...w/the Haslams? There is a new drama every week and sure the t-shirt thing is trivial, the shoe thing trivial, but it all points at a bigger issue that this is an undisciplined team led by an undisciplined coach who wants to be their friend.
I get your point, but the only thing behind/backing up the points you're laying out is frustration. OBJ, knucklehead he may be, puts in the work (as you said). How do you know his workout routine? With how much Baker throws behind/over/in front of him, practicing the 1-handers probably IS the best thing for the team...
Because I have seen his workouts on Instagram, facebook, twitter. I have not seen him working out with the team at camp. Its obvious, and has been reported/rumored on the board, he is running bad routes, doesn't get lined up correctly, and just about every game there is a ball thrown and hes about 10 yards from it.
Maybe he should practice the 2 handers first, as those seem to be the ones dropping left and right on 3rd downs.
Im not talking about Haslam. Im talking about Dorsey. He built this team and roster, not Haslam. He brought in ME GUYS with emphasis on TALENT over HARDWORK. TALENT over ambition. TALENT over TEAM. TALENT over CHARACTER.
The teams that CONSTANTLY win in the NFL, are the teams that build with guys willing to give 110% to win a game. outside of Chubb and so far while he has been here, Hunt (which is surprising), I don't see that with anyone else.
Too worried about what they look like pregame, during game, cleats and visors, and not worried about completing a 3rd down completion.
You think what he posts on Instagram is everything he's doing?
Dorsey brought in talent. I support that. Mangini brought in TEAM guys. Dorsey also brought in Hunt, Chubb, Landry....
I don't know what the solution is to what's going on this season. What I do know is that there isn't just 1 solution.
Mangini wasn't the GM if I believe.
The coach can only coach who is in front him. Freddie isn't coaching anyone it seems, as they don't show up to workouts or practices.
Dorsey has brought in talent, no one disputes that. But if you listen to guys who have played in the league and have been successful in the league. Then look at PERRENIAL playoff teams (NE, BALT, PITT, SEA, etc). its PAINFULLY clear and obvious you need two things.
1. A franchise QB 2. a TEAM around him that buys in, and puts winning over stats and individual performances.
Tom Brady isn't some physically gift specimen that is out of this world. He plays to live another day (throws the ball away and doesn't take sacks to hurt his team), his WR and OL give 110% because that is DEMANDED from them from the TOP down (Kraft/BB).
Same with the Steelers, same with the SEA, same with Balt (although Lamar is a freak specimen - they still won with Flacco and Dilfer for crying out loud).
TEAM over PLAYER. We don't have that. I know people don't like 850ESPN on here, but Jerrod Cherry has been preaching this SINCE BEFORE THE OFFSEASON. When we traded for OBJ, Vernon, etc. He said the only worry he had was accumulating individuals and not building a team.
He has maintained that, and you are seeing the results as we speak.
You think what he posts on Instagram is everything he's doing?
Dorsey brought in talent. I support that. Mangini brought in TEAM guys. Dorsey also brought in Hunt, Chubb, Landry....
I don't know what the solution is to what's going on this season. What I do know is that there isn't just 1 solution.
Mangini wasn't the GM if I believe.
The coach can only coach who is in front him. Freddie isn't coaching anyone it seems, as they don't show up to workouts or practices.
Dorsey has brought in talent, no one disputes that. But if you listen to guys who have played in the league and have been successful in the league. Then look at PERRENIAL playoff teams (NE, BALT, PITT, SEA, etc). its PAINFULLY clear and obvious you need two things.
1. A franchise QB 2. a TEAM around him that buys in, and puts winning over stats and individual performances.
Tom Brady isn't some physically gift specimen that is out of this world. He plays to live another day (throws the ball away and doesn't take sacks to hurt his team), his WR and OL give 110% because that is DEMANDED from them from the TOP down (Kraft/BB).
Same with the Steelers, same with the SEA, same with Balt (although Lamar is a freak specimen - they still won with Flacco and Dilfer for crying out loud).
TEAM over PLAYER. We don't have that. I know people don't like 850ESPN on here, but Jerrod Cherry has been preaching this SINCE BEFORE THE OFFSEASON. When we traded for OBJ, Vernon, etc. He said the only worry he had was accumulating individuals and not building a team.
He has maintained that, and you are seeing the results as we speak.
Its quite obvious that we don't have a franchise QB. Worst thing that we can do is to try to justify a players fault with other players...
Team above player, I agree but that is for all players...
I honestly fail to see any problem with OBJ,Landry, Hunt and Vernon...
"The teams that CONSTANTLY win in the NFL, are the teams that build with guys willing to give 110% to win a game. outside of Chubb and so far while he has been here, Hunt (which is surprising), I don't see that with anyone else."
Hunt's not surprising at all. He grew up like we did, a Browns fan, dreaming of one day playing for the Browns. I think Baker is also a team guy. I see him running down the field to congratulate anyone making a good play. Same with Landry, Bitonio and Tretter... Beyond that .. ehhhh .. not so much. We are all different. We show who we are in different ways. The guys mentioned are the guys who stand out.
J/C If we would part ways with Kitchens...what about bringing Greg Roman in as HC.He's done an amazing job with Lamar this season and during his stints as OC with San Fran and Buffalo he always seems to have around a top 10 scoring offense. Bringing him in could help Baker and also help us by taking him away from Lamar and Baltimore
J/C If we would part ways with Kitchens...what about bringing Greg Roman in as HC.He's done an amazing job with Lamar this season and during his stints as OC with San Fran and Buffalo he always seems to have around a top 10 scoring offense. Bringing him in could help Baker and also help us by taking him away from Lamar and Baltimore
I hate the "proven coach" moniker but if we fire Kitchens we better bring in someone who has proven they know what they are doing.
A snippet from a profile written on Kevin Stefanski...
In steps Stefanski, who was blocked by Zimmer from joining Shurmur in New York, had a three-game audition as play caller last season when DeFilippo was fired and nearly got the Cleveland Browns head coaching job in the offseason.
The dizzying developments would be stomach-churning for some coaches. But Stefanski refuses to ride the rollercoaster. If he was disappointed in Zimmer’s decision not to let him take a coordinator job with the Giants, he didn’t let on. If he was bitter about the Vikings choosing DeFilippo over him last offseason, you wouldn’t know it now.
And the Browns gig? The one that some in Vikings land believe was his before a last-minute turn to incumbent Freddie Kitchens? Stefanski’s only hint of a tell is a knowing chuckle when asked how close he thought he was to leading Baker Mayfield and Odell Beckham Jr.
“I’m glad I went through it and met that group and talked to them,” Stefanski said.
“Ultimately it was not the right fit. I really, truly have so moved past it that it’s hard to even go back and remember what I was thinking at the time. I’m glad I’ve done it, glad I had the opportunity to talk with them, but I really like my gig now. It’s a big one.
“The good news is I have some really good coaches that are helping me. I have some really good players on the offensive side of the ball.”
Instead we got (from the Seth Wickersham article)....
Today, Dorsey not only got his preferred coach but also his preferred structure. Kitchens will report to Dorsey, forcing collaboration and eliminating the appeals court to Haslam. Nobody knows if it will matter, given how Haslam operates. But for one day, at least, it feels good to be a Brown. As Dorsey privately told an associate: "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted."
A snippet from a profile written on Kevin Stefanski...
In steps Stefanski, who was blocked by Zimmer from joining Shurmur in New York, had a three-game audition as play caller last season when DeFilippo was fired and nearly got the Cleveland Browns head coaching job in the offseason.
The dizzying developments would be stomach-churning for some coaches. But Stefanski refuses to ride the rollercoaster. If he was disappointed in Zimmer’s decision not to let him take a coordinator job with the Giants, he didn’t let on. If he was bitter about the Vikings choosing DeFilippo over him last offseason, you wouldn’t know it now.
And the Browns gig? The one that some in Vikings land believe was his before a last-minute turn to incumbent Freddie Kitchens? Stefanski’s only hint of a tell is a knowing chuckle when asked how close he thought he was to leading Baker Mayfield and Odell Beckham Jr.
“I’m glad I went through it and met that group and talked to them,” Stefanski said.
“Ultimately it was not the right fit. I really, truly have so moved past it that it’s hard to even go back and remember what I was thinking at the time. I’m glad I’ve done it, glad I had the opportunity to talk with them, but I really like my gig now. It’s a big one.
“The good news is I have some really good coaches that are helping me. I have some really good players on the offensive side of the ball.”
Instead we got (from the Seth Wickersham article)....
Today, Dorsey not only got his preferred coach but also his preferred structure. Kitchens will report to Dorsey, forcing collaboration and eliminating the appeals court to Haslam. Nobody knows if it will matter, given how Haslam operates. But for one day, at least, it feels good to be a Brown. As Dorsey privately told an associate: "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted."
IMO, the really crappy part about Kitchens (so far) failing so miserably is that last line.
Dorsey got what he wanted... and now here we are. I don't care what industry/market you work in... when decision makers that are in positions of power like Dorsey do this and get their way, it comes with the great weight of expectations. The NFL is a not a patient workplace.
The more I think about it, the more I hope Kitchens can somehow pull his head out of his butt over this offseason. It may help if he shows something down this meaningless December stretch.
He will be available in the offseason, this our chance to get a REAL GM, a guy that actually knows WTH he is doing and will have a plan. A guy that actually knows how to draft and hire a good coach.
You want to build the stability of the Steelers organization, here is your chance right here. Pay Kevin Colbert then GTFO of his way and let him fix this mess.
Freddie acts some southern frat boy from Ozark State College Wearing that shirt was a reflection of his inability to be a focused mature HC. There's a reason why hes never been a HC ever Before in his football career Does Tomlin or Shanahan wear shirts like that ?
This team is extremely young and learning how to win. All this panic is unwarranted. Blowing it up is asinine.
I saw a team beat up the Steelers, Blow out the best team int he AFC (Ravens), Beat the 9-3 Bills, dismantle the Dolphins and lose an ugly one on the road.....by 7 points to the Steelers.
Yeah, they are up and down, it's a rookie HC and a bunch of players under 26, that's what you get. Blowing it all up isn't the answer.
When we were winning three in a row, the anti-kitchens chatter died down. Lose in Pitt, it heats up again. I wanted to keep GW and have said it many times, but that didn’t happen and now I believe he deserves at least another year.
As Dorsey privately told an associate: "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted."[/i]
this was in reference to Freddie reporting to Dorsey so Dorsey could keep him on a short leash and fire him when a better hc comes available or take the credit if Freddie did well.
When we were winning three in a row, the anti-kitchens chatter died down. Lose in Pitt, it heats up again. I wanted to keep GW and have said it many times, but that didn’t happen and now I believe he deserves at least another year.
Coaches CAN improve.
And rightfully so. The reason the chatter picked back up is because there is zero excuse for that performance. We grind out a tough win against Buffalo, push the Steelers around, perform exactly how we were expected to against the Dolphins... then we rewind the whole daggone thing 4+ weeks. We should have been past every single issue we saw last weekend by now. It’s like Freddie and this team have a set goal, they reach it, but then think they’ve made it and try to go on autopilot.
If Freddie’s issue was technical in nature, like trying to install a complicated offense, ok, I see the argument for suffering through his learning curve. But his learning curve includes his own maturation. Any improvement we may see there has come after he’s been dragged kicking and screaming like a 4 yr old who doesn’t want to take a bath.
Freddie doesn’t know how to lead. Plain and simple. Instead of defining a team identity and demanding his players be held to that, he went the route of “you be you, I’ll be me”. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had a “only God can judge me” tattoo.
When we were winning three in a row, the anti-kitchens chatter died down. Lose in Pitt, it heats up again. I wanted to keep GW and have said it many times, but that didn’t happen and now I believe he deserves at least another year.
Coaches CAN improve.
No it didn't and it wouldn't die even if we won...This team can only win easy games.
Once the magic is broken its never going to come back.
Both kitchens and Baker will have a hard time getting people back on their side of the fence, and they only have themselves to blame for that.
The only way I could swallow keeping Kitchens for another year is if:
"He is forced to give up play calling and actually hire an OC Not named Todd Monken"
Its obvious Kitchens is completely overwhelmed calling plays. We need an experienced guy calling plays.
If Kitchens agrees to hiring an experienced OC and hands over play calling duties. I'd be ok with giving him another year.
Norv Turner will probably be available this offseason, and he knows how to run the ball and take advantage of top tier talent like Hunt, Chubb, Landry, and OBJ. He is respected around the league, guys will buy in. He could also be a very good mentor to Kitchens. Make it happen or fire Freddie and hire Ron Rivera.
I've concluded that Freddie just isn't the guy. It was a gamble that didn't pay off. His stubbornness will lead to his firing.
When you have Chubb and Hunt in the backfield and run the ball only six times in the second half...against a blitz-crazy defense...with an OL that has 3 out of 5 of guys who are average-only-on-a-good-day...you won't fix that stubbornness with continuity.
When your best receiver essentially runs the wrong route at the end of the biggest game of the year...in GAME #12 no less...leading to a game-ending int...you won't fix that with continuity.
When your super star receiver can't line up properly...or run the route properly...or catch the ball with more than one hand...you won't fix that with continuity.
When the play-caller insists on running empty backfield sets...with Chubb and Hunt on the roster...against a blitz-crazy defense...with a crap O Line...you won't fix that stubbornness with continuity.
The only reasonable way to keep Freddie is to essentially neuter him. If you have to neuter your head coach, you won't fix that with continuity.
This team is extremely young and learning how to win. All this panic is unwarranted. Blowing it up is asinine.
I saw a team beat up the Steelers, Blow out the best team int he AFC (Ravens), Beat the 9-3 Bills, dismantle the Dolphins and lose an ugly one on the road.....by 7 points to the Steelers.
Yeah, they are up and down, it's a rookie HC and a bunch of players under 26, that's what you get. Blowing it all up isn't the answer.
I see a team making the same exact mistakes week in and week out. I see a stubborn HC that refuses to admit the mistakes they are making, or take accountability for them. I see a HC who says one thing, and does another. I see a HC who is not utilizing the best players on his team in an effective way. I see a team that has lost to MULTIPLE rookie undrafted FA QBs. I see a team that has literally BLOWN several games. I see a team that doesn't have the mental compacity to overcome any type of obstacles or hurdles. I see a weak, ineffective HC, a weak ineffective structure, and a weak ineffective organization.
When we were winning three in a row, the anti-kitchens chatter died down. Lose in Pitt, it heats up again. I wanted to keep GW and have said it many times, but that didn’t happen and now I believe he deserves at least another year.
Coaches CAN improve.
Coaches can improve, you are absolutely right. But they have to be willing that they need to improve. Freddie, for as good a guy he is - is stubborn as a mule. How many times has he said they need to run Chubb in certain instances only to the throw the very next week in the same circumstance? How many times does Freddie have to call the same stupid looking plays that don't work? How many times does he have to try to fit a square peg in a round hole?
Coaches can improve, but they have to be willing to change.
The only way I could swallow keeping Kitchens for another year is if:
"He is forced to give up play calling and actually hire an OC Not named Todd Monken"
Its obvious Kitchens is completely overwhelmed calling plays. We need an experienced guy calling plays.
If Kitchens agrees to hiring an experienced OC and hands over play calling duties. I'd be ok with giving him another year.
Norv Turner will probably be available this offseason, and he knows how to run the ball and take advantage of top tier talent like Hunt, Chubb, Landry, and OBJ. He is respected around the league, guys will buy in. He could also be a very good mentor to Kitchens. Make it happen or fire Freddie and hire Ron Rivera.
Compared to some of the other stuff you've posted, I can see how your Norv comment flew under the radar...
Norv is probably one of the few good vet coaches that we DON'T want here. He's shown he's not HC material in San Diego, and he's exactly what this offense does NOT need (pass happy, hanging his Oline out to dry).
Success is almost never linear. There are almost always fits and starts .... ups and downs. Even Bill Belichick had his struggles when he was here.
At some point we have to be willing to grow with a coach. No team in the NFL has been better at blowing things up. During that time, it's about the only thing we've been good at. It's time to actually grow a coach, instead of starting over once more.
In many respects I can understand keeping Freddie. But that is based more upon continuity than performance.
This is the heart of it. I was all for keeping a winless Hue because of this concept and the lack of talent on the roster. With Freddie it's the same but different - performance of the more talented team doesn't warrant a vote for continuity, but the fact that he is learning and changing roles and responsibility (drastically) the *hope* is he improves.
I've said for several weeks now that i need to see improvement week to week from Freddie the Head Coach and play caller - at this point it is really tough to see much if any. For me to want Freddie back next year we need to improve on offense - consistency and balance between run/pass ... and better game management, prep and discipline/leadership. I hope it happens - I'm worried like many, that we'll continue to play 'well' against the bad teams and then struggle against average/good teams. imo Freddies future very much depends on the performances in these last games. Seasons over but a ton to play for.
Get G.williams back or try to get Urban Myer and please get rid of the buffoon Freddie please. Hey J.D. admit your mistake and move on its that simple. j\c
A 5-7 record with the losses this team has taken (Denver, the Steelers with a quarterback named Duck and some other backups playing) indicate a lack of a winning culture in the building.
Culture doesn’t come from the coach who is hired, or the GM who is brought in, or the analytics guy or the media approach or the uniforms (which are about to change, again).
Culture comes from within, and it starts with ownership setting a tone and standard for what the team wants, expects and will tolerate. Ultimately, the owners are responsible for everything that takes place. It’s their team. The GM and coach and players who join the team join the culture established by ownership. With the Browns, the culture and commitment and standards change every time the coach or GM changes.
Baltimore and Pittsburgh have culture and commitment established over years. When Mike Tomlin became coach, he adjusted to the Rooneys’ approach; the Rooneys did not adjust to him. Through different GMs in Baltimore, the Ravens’ approach has stayed rock-solid. Those teams choose players who fit what they want, expect and demand. They make concessions for greatness — Antonio Brown comes to mind — but even the Steelers reach their limit.
The Browns lack no clear, apparent direction or culture fostered from within that involves a commitment to how to win, the players needed to win and the kind of people the organization wants to win.
It’s not enough to say the team wants talent. It needs players who fit a culture and mesh into a team.
Hopefully we didn't get ourselves into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
I'm not thrilled with Kitchens going forward. I'm also not thrilled with moving on and having Baker and the young guys on their fourth head coach and offensive staff in three seasons.
Guess we'll see what happens the rest of the season and go from there.
A 5-7 record with the losses this team has taken (Denver, the Steelers with a quarterback named Duck and some other backups playing) indicate a lack of a winning culture in the building.
Culture doesn’t come from the coach who is hired, or the GM who is brought in, or the analytics guy or the media approach or the uniforms (which are about to change, again).
Culture comes from within, and it starts with ownership setting a tone and standard for what the team wants, expects and will tolerate. Ultimately, the owners are responsible for everything that takes place. It’s their team. The GM and coach and players who join the team join the culture established by ownership. With the Browns, the culture and commitment and standards change every time the coach or GM changes.
Baltimore and Pittsburgh have culture and commitment established over years. When Mike Tomlin became coach, he adjusted to the Rooneys’ approach; the Rooneys did not adjust to him. Through different GMs in Baltimore, the Ravens’ approach has stayed rock-solid. Those teams choose players who fit what they want, expect and demand. They make concessions for greatness — Antonio Brown comes to mind — but even the Steelers reach their limit.
The Browns lack no clear, apparent direction or culture fostered from within that involves a commitment to how to win, the players needed to win and the kind of people the organization wants to win.
It’s not enough to say the team wants talent. It needs players who fit a culture and mesh into a team.
I think there are more tangible reasons we can point to than just 'culture'. Note that I'm not completely discounting that. I actually do think the Steelers have a much better culture (from ownership, to front office, to head coach, etc.) and there players just seem to 'get it' more.
However.
I challenge somebody to dig up the tape from an old Browns vs Steelers matchup. Any game from the last twenty years ought to do. What I want you to do is just look at the players. Don't even worry about who the coach or the QB is, or the big names on the rosters. Just look at the players.
What I see twice a year, every year, is one team that looks like a professional football team (that is the Steelers, in case you aren't following.) Their arms tend to be bigger and more shredded, they are more physically imposing, and their body language and demeanor reflect this. They play rough and physical, sometimes crossing the line into dirty.
Meanwhile the Browns look more like a rag tag bunch. They're small and lean, or big and fat, but almost never big and lean. They don't seem to play with much fire, or take up for each other much. There are exceptions.
I don't know exactly why this is the case, I just know it's true. Maybe it's player acquisition (targeting players with certain body types or habits), or diet/nutrition/supplements/"super supplements", or strength and conditioning, or what have you.
What I do know is that the Browns are never going to consistently beat the Steelers until they can match this. Doesn't matter how much more talent they supposedly have because the Browns never even come close to maximizing the talent they do have.
(By the way, the Ravens are much closer to the Steelers in this regard and the Bengals are much closer to the Browns.)
Add in actual leadership in the organization and how can anybody expect different results? Rooney, Colbert, and Tomlin make a great trifecta, probably second only to Kraft, Caserio, and Belichick up in New England. On the other hand, we have the Haslams, Dorsey, and Kitchens. Are you really confident the Haslams and Freddie Kitchens are the answer? Even Dorsey is burning through his football cred very fast.
All good points. But how involved do you want your owner to be in the mid to ground level operations? It’s one thing to establish the “mission statement” but it’s another to actively influence it.
So what is it exactly we want Jimmy to do? We all agree we don’t want him picking the roster. I think most see the sense in letting his GM pick the coaches l, if nothing else that to avoid establishing that weird GM and HC don’t answer to each other.
Should Jimmy step in when he doesn’t see his HC or GM making more of an effort to get OBJ to attend workouts? What about the inconsistency with play calling? Or Freddie not running a disciplined team for at least the first half of the year? If he sits back and trusts the people in place to work it out, he’s accused of being derelict in his duties. If he hangs Dorsey and/or Freddie’s jobs over their head or fires people outright, then he’s accused of running an unstable organization. I think there’s legit pros and cons to both sides.
But I think before we can assign blame or responsibility for what the culture IS (which may not reflect what it’s supposed to be) we need to define the role of each person within.
You get it.
The same people saying Haslam has to set the culture are the same people who were saying that once we hired Dorsey the Haslams needed to step aside and shut-up. Let the football people do their job.
The "football people" are not doing their job though. That's the problem, Peen. All that talent Dorsey accumulated means jack squat if they play for themselves. All that talent, and Dorsey forgot one thing - the willingness to run through a brickwall for the guy next to you. We got guys that want numbers and not wins. We got guys that want commercials and brands over TDs and victories.
Its not a coincidence, that the two best things we have on offense right now are Hunt and Chubb, and they are playing the most unselfish football you can.
The rest of the team, Baker included - are more worried about SI covers and followers on Twitter are having the worst seasons in their careers. Coincidence? Culture. Team. Hard work. Three things the team has sorely missed this year.
I would rather have 3 Edelmans over 3 OBJs any day of the week. OBJ is above and beyond more talented that Edelman - yet Edelman puts in the work, and his team knows he will be there each and every day 110% to the max.
Does that mean OBJ isn't a hard worker. He is. He trains hard, he works on his craft. Problem is, he only trains for himself, he only trains on HIS CRAFT. He doesn't train for the betterment of the team - he trains to make HIS 1 handed catches, while easy balls are bouncing off his facemask.
Give me 3 guys with heart and drive, over 3 OBJs and AB's any day of the week.
Want another example - Ju Ju Smith. The kid last year was humble, worked hard, loved in the locker room in Pitts. He then became a fan favorite. Know, he spent all offseason building a "brand" on social media, always has a camera crew around when hes doing something, and is absolutely turning into a ME guy. You can see that with his on the field performance as well.
You are wanting it both ways. I, nor you know what is going on inside the office in Berea. I am pretty sure the Haslams meet with Dorsey on a regular basis. They probably talk with Freddie.
Dorsey is over football operations. The Haslams aren't going to walk in and fire Freddy. They are going to talk with Dorsey and find out if he thinks this is going to work or ask why it isn't.
They aren't going to fire Dorsey today.
I don't know that Freddie is calling bad plays other than he like to pass too much...ironic sine he was a running backs coach. All I remember was Freddie and Monken were going to meld their systems and for a new one. I think that is what doesn't work.
I think when the season ends Freddie is going to see the light one way of the other he needs to give up playcalling. As head coach he can always influence it. I am not sure if we retain Monken or look elsewhere. Probably retain him with him calling plays.
Monken at the end of last year was considered a valid head coach candidate.
Freddie is the head coach. Monken reports to Freddie. He can make recommendations. Have input. But in the end Freddie is in charge of this offense.
Dorsey could take power away from Freddie and force him to let Monken have the offense and call the plays.
However, Freddie got the job based upon the results of last year. A forced move like that just signals; a I don't trust you atmosphere.
Firing Monken and bringing in a guy to run the offense would signal the same.
Ron Rivera is a winning head coach. Well respected inside the game. Both as a man and head coach.
He will get a job as head coach.
This is a tough call. A decision I am sure Dorsey will struggle to make.
I am of the mindset that an offensive head coach who has a vision for how to use Mayfield and the pieces in place into a cohesive offense makes some sense.
Apart from what some may think. I believe that Dorsey is fully committed to Baker.
So that becomes key. Who can get the most production from Baker and the players in place?
I think we almost have to roll with Kitchens for another year. This is just an old philosophy of mine, a coach should always get at least two years, barring some major scandal or something along those lines.
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I am of the mindset that an offensive head coach who has a vision for how to use Mayfield and the pieces in place into a cohesive offense makes some sense.
This makes a lot of sense and I agree. I hate to bring this up, and I know I'm going to get blasted for it, but I'm going to say it anyway.
Bringing back Hue for that third season-- Baker's rookie season-- looks to be one of the most boneheaded and catastrophically inept front office decisions ever.
It's hard to overstate how incredibly bad of an idea that was, to saddle our rookie #1 overall pick with that nonsense. Baker is already on his THIRD head coach and offensive coordinator in his second season. Move on from Kitchens and he'll be on his fourth.
Ugh, makes me sick just thinking about it. It reminds me of Alex Smith having seven offensive coordinators in seven years or whatever it was. That's so stupid. QBs need to learn and perfect the system they are in over a period of years, or in some cases even decades (New England).
We always hear about the importance of getting the QB right, but rarely hear about the importance of getting the coach right.. at least not on the timescale we're talking here.
Dorsey will have his ear to the ground. He will know if the players are questioning Freddie. He will know if there is in-fighting and conflict amount the coaching staff.
Anything along those lines would doom Freddie.
The mostly scenario is we end winning 7 or 8 games. Freddie keeps his job. We continue to build. Address the OL and a try to score in the draft.
Freddie and Monken remain and get another year to swim or sink.
With our ravaged DL with no depth and no Myles Garret I won’t be one bit suprised if the Bengals don’t beat us atleast once
Andy Dalton stinks only because he sucks when pressured. Since the Browns have no pass rush now Dalton will probably have a big game. Any QB in this league can beat you when you can’t pressure them.
There are a lot of bad teams in the NFL this year and the Browns are one of those teams. We couldn’t even beat a Steelers team playing mostly backups and practice squad guys on offense.
Both Dorsey and Kitchens need to go but it will take another 18 or so months from Jimmah to figure this out
Here's something everyone should realize by now. This team will never be good under the Haslams. They are the worst of the worst. And if that's not enough when they decide to hang them up, they're going to turn it over to their idiot son-in-law.
When I look at the the end results. I am ready to make the change.
Play calling. In the time I have watched football (which is long) every play caller is questioned.
That includes Bruce Arians to Lindy Infante on down the line.
What has to be looked at IMO is: did the players and team perform to their potential?
This is where the problem lies. I can not see justification for the way this team has performed. We lost too many games to teams we had more talent than.
Can Freddie get better? That is unknown. No doubt that having no prior experience as a head coach. There has to be a learning curve there.
However, unless you are behind the scenes everyday and are witness to how the team is prepared and how they respond to the coaches? You can not know.
The thought of going to find another head coach and staff and all that goes with that is drastic.
It is a very difficult decision.
Who is out there that would be the right person?
That also comes into play. I know some but not all that would be considered.
So, for right now let's see what happens with the last 4 games. Then reassess.
Here's something everyone should realize by now. This team will never be good under the Haslams. They are the worst of the worst. And if that's not enough when they decide to hang them up, they're going to turn it over to their idiot son-in-law.
Go Browns!
Unless you consider hiring Dorsey as the reason we struggled this year, I'm not sure what the Haslam's have to do with it.
As far as I know, they stayed out of it and let him go get the players he wanted, make the trades he wanted, and just wrote checks... if you know otherwise, I'd be glad to listen.
As for it always being this way... the Rooney's made the playoffs 1 time in the first 40 years that the Rooney's owned the team, they were pretty much perennial laughingstock in the NFL.. then one day that miraculously changed and now they are viewed as the model of stable, consistent, and successful ownership... The Haslams are in what, year 7?
Now I'm not saying I'm anxious to wait another 30 years for success or that I think it should take that long.. but I still believe we are a piece away from being great right now and that piece is the coach.. either Freddie maturing quickly into the position or being replaced.. and as far as I know, that decision, lies almost exclusively with Dorsey.
Play calling. In the time I have watched football (which is long) every play caller is questioned.
Oh absolutely. And I don't have a problem with "play calling" per say. Its more of WHEN and WHERE we are calling plays. if the 4-9 draw play works, hes a genius. If it doesn't, hes well...a schmuck lol.
Play calling is overrated IMO. If you players execute, you win the play. Its that simple. The problem is again, when and where and what type of plays are being called at certain times.
Empty sets on the goal, not give your 100 yard a game back the ball on crucial 3-1 4-1 calls, taking penalties on 4th down so you can go for it on 4-16 instead of 4-11 (god did some of us forget THAT), things like that are why I call him a bad "play caller" opposed to the actual plays being called.
However, you also have to have the talent to call the plays he is calling. Long, slow developing double move routes, you need time no the line for them to generate. We don't have the talent on the line to do that. That's bad play calling.
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What has to be looked at IMO is: did the players and team perform to their potential?
This is the biggest key. And long story short, no. Baker has regressed as a player. Odell is lost in our offense. Higs cant see the field. Chubb has excelled, but cant get the ball when its crucial time in a game, and outside of Chubb, I could say that besides him on offense - not a single player has improved.
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However, unless you are behind the scenes everyday and are witness to how the team is prepared and how they respond to the coaches? You can not know.
Actaully, I can. You see, Freddie keeps saying "we had our best practice this week all year" and then laid an egg. He keeps saying that they practice great, we have great prep work, but then we look like crap on gameday. So either he doenst know what a good practice looks like - or THIS is what he thinks is good work. Either way is concerning IMO.
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Who is out there that would be the right person?
If I knew that, I would be getting a check from the Haslams
Honestly, I know River Boat Ron is the name right now everyone is talking about because hes fresh news - but I would want to see all the players available before screaming out names as my guy.
I am not saying Fire Freddie today either. He needs to finish the season so we can get a full picture. I agree with that. But honestly, even if we WIN OUT, I think you need to take into account HOW we win out.
Lets face it. EVERY win we have minus BALT, left us with more questions than answers.
WE beat the Jets with a dud QB playing and half their Def out. We won by 20 but honestly it should have been a BLOWOUT
We showed very bad closing skills against the Bills, and couldn't score. We should have demolished them as well the way the game was setup as well as Pitts game 1. It should have been 40-0 game.
The score against MIA looks good on paper, yet we gave up a lot there for MIA to actually get back in the game. Just another EPISODE of this "team" having 0 resolve and almost crumbling in the face of adversity. '
Play calling is overrated IMO. If you players execute, you win the play. Its that simple. The problem is again, when and where and what type of plays are being called at certain times.
Empty sets on the goal, not give your 100 yard a game back the ball on crucial 3-1 4-1 calls, taking penalties on 4th down so you can go for it on 4-16 instead of 4-11 (god did some of us forget THAT), things like that are why I call him a bad "play caller" opposed to the actual plays being called.
I am completely confused by this.... as I read this, you are saying that he has a decent playbook, with good plays in it... he just uses them at the wrong times in the wrong situations? Isn't that basically what playcalling is? Dialing up the right play at the right time that anticipates the right defense and exploits it for positive yardage?
And yes, I agree that executing the play is as important as the play call itself but being a good playcaller is about keeping the defense off balance and exploiting its weaknesses.
Play calling is overrated IMO. If you players execute, you win the play. Its that simple. The problem is again, when and where and what type of plays are being called at certain times.
Empty sets on the goal, not give your 100 yard a game back the ball on crucial 3-1 4-1 calls, taking penalties on 4th down so you can go for it on 4-16 instead of 4-11 (god did some of us forget THAT), things like that are why I call him a bad "play caller" opposed to the actual plays being called.
I am completely confused by this.... as I read this, you are saying that he has a decent playbook, with good plays in it... he just uses them at the wrong times in the wrong situations? Isn't that basically what playcalling is? Dialing up the right play at the right time that anticipates the right defense and exploits it for positive yardage?
And yes, I agree that executing the play is as important as the play call itself but being a good playcaller is about keeping the defense off balance and exploiting its weaknesses.
To an extent, I mean obviously running a draw on 4th and 9 is not gonna work 99 out of 100 times. On 3rd and 3, I don't think the play matters as much as the execution of it.
I think the playbook is good enough. I don't think our oline is good enough to execute our playbook.
But I think Kitchens philosophy of throwing the ball anytime we are in a crucial situation is worse than out playbook and making the offense look worse than it is.
Calling empty set on the 5 yard line is not keeping the def off balance. I think its ideas of what this offense should look like opposed to what this offense actually is, would be what im trying to say. This offense is a run first offense that needs to setup the pass off the run. He refuses to see or admit that, and wants Baker to the hero and throw the ball 50X a game.
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
We have the 10th best run offense...
Look for the problems elsewhere, for example in the QB
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays.
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays.
It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2.
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays.
It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2.
It sure would have been nice to run a couple times right behind Zeitler. Edited for formatting.
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays.
It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2.
And not one QB sneak inside the 1 yd line when that has a, like, 95+% percent success rate.
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays.
It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2.
And not one QB sneak inside the 1 yd line when that has a, like, 95+% percent success rate.
Mind boggling.
Welp, Baker was stopped cold on a 4th and 1 the week before inside the Denver 5. Everybody screaming "how do you not give the ball to Chubb!" But yeah, I agree 100%, with eight tries, at least one has to be a sneak.
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays.
If I recall, there were a few pass to Odell, and most we pitched the ball I think 2 times for loss. I don't recall lining up and going up the gut but 1 time maybe?
While I don't necessarily disagree, but perhaps Freddie feels with this awful offensive line that there's no way they can run the ball in from the 5 yd line?
IDK how that would make sense when Chubb is averaging 5 yards a carry. Its not the run defense that's giving it problems, its the pass pro.
I do recall having 7 consecutive plays from like the 1 yardline and we didn't score. Did we pass all 7 of those times? Asking because I don't really remember. I just remember we were made fun of by everyone who had a voice in the media that we couldn't gain a yard in 7 plays.
It was EIGHT consecutive plays. All three passes were to Beckham, two resulting in DPI... All five runs were Nick Chubb for a total of -2.
And not one QB sneak inside the 1 yd line when that has a, like, 95+% percent success rate.
Mind boggling.
Welp, Baker was stopped cold on a 4th and 1 the week before inside the Denver 5. Everybody screaming "how do you not give the ball to Chubb!" But yeah, I agree 100%, with eight tries, at least one has to be a sneak.
After that PI call in the endzone on the pass to Beckham, we were on the half yard line. At that point, just fall into the endzone with Baker.
1st & Goal at BUF 1 (6:20 - 1st) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short left to O.Beckham. PENALTY on BUF-J.Poyer, Defensive Pass Interference, 0 yards, enforced at BUF 1 - No Play. 1st & Goal at BUF 1 (6:20 - 1st) N.Chubb right tackle to BUF 2 for -1 yards (M.Milano; J.Poyer). 2nd & Goal at BUF 2 (5:32 - 1st) N.Chubb right guard to BUF 1 for 1 yard (L.Alexander, L.Alexander). 3rd & Goal at BUF 1 (4:51 - 1st) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short left to O.Beckham. PENALTY on BUF-T.White, Defensive Pass Interference, 0 yards, enforced at BUF 1 - No Play. 1st & Goal at BUF 1 (4:45 - 1st) N.Chubb right guard to BUF 1 for no gain (J.Poyer; T.Edmunds). 2nd & Goal at BUF 1 (4:04 - 1st) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short right to O.Beckham (T.White). 3rd & Goal at BUF 1 (4:00 - 1st) N.Chubb left guard to BUF 1 for no gain (J.Poyer). 4th & Goal at BUF 1 (3:18 - 1st) N.Chubb right tackle to BUF 3 for -2 yards (C.Liuget; M.Milano).
Freddie is completely overwhelmed as a play caller. He has not figured out the most basic of strategies: What are your strengths? What are your opponents weaknesses? Take advantage of BOTH. This is what Belichick does. EVERY single game. Freddie just wants to throw the ball all over the field regardless. That it flat out ignorance. And the reason he will be fired at season's end. I'm OK with that. To add, he is NOT a mature leadership figure. This locker room needs that. You're not in college anymore Bubba. See ya.
I have been suspicious of internal discord. It was one of the things that I had stated could result in Freddie getting fired. Even more so than the record.
If people were on the same page and the players appeared to be catching on improving. I felt that 8-8 or maybe 7-9 Freddie would probably survive.
If this article is accurate. Freddie doesn't have a chance.
John Dorsey should just admit he made a mistake with Freddie. He took a shot with him because of last years success and it just didn't work out. He will get respect for saying that and can move on because let's face it, we need a new coaching staff. Period!!
Browns need to be 8-5 next year by this point in the season to have a reasonable chance at playoff spots in the AFC/AFC North.
Browns need to focus on winning 8 before they lose 5, 8 or more before they get to that 6th loss of the year.
If they can do that they would have a serious chance at a playoff berth, but any less isn't going to get it, The AFC is just filled with too many good teams that also have game plans and the AFC South, East, and West, have just too many good teams to count on half the league to stink and try to make the playoffs at 9-7 It's not the 1980's, there isn't a 4 team division with two other 5 team divisions anymore, it's going to take a better winning percentage.
We've won four out of our last five games and all I see is this BS?
Why yes, yes you do. There is no good reason we shouldn’t be 5 for 5 and with the exception of the Bills, the other wins are against bottom dwellers, games that we should have won anyway. And we struggled to assert ourselves most of that time.
My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains.
I have yet to see anyone lay out a rationale for keeping Freddie that doesn’t include criticizing other fans who have seen enough of what he brings. His inability/refusal/ineffectiveness to make necessary and correct changes doesn’t lead me to believe he’s likely going to “get it” in the off season. It’s why I can’t assume he’ll meaningfully improve because ‘continuity’.
My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains.
I have yet to see anyone lay out a rationale for keeping Freddie that doesn’t include criticizing other fans who have seen enough of what he brings. His inability/refusal/ineffectiveness to make necessary and correct changes doesn’t lead me to believe he’s likely going to “get it” in the off season. It’s why I can’t assume he’ll meaningfully improve because ‘continuity’.
Here's the problem: No coach, NONE, has been given the opportunity of continuity. Other than maybe Hue.
When you keep starting over every 2-2 1/2 years, that isn't continuity. That's starting over, again, and again, and again, and again.
Honestly, this all boils down to Baker. If the organization is committed to him, they have to ask themselves if he's the best guy to coach him. If they believe he is, you stick with him. If they don't, you have to consider a move.
I think other factors will be --
1. Do the Haslams want to pay another coach that no longer works for the organization? 2. Will Dorsey be ready to give up on his guy after one year? 3. Who can they get? I've read Josh McDaniels would jump at the chance to come here and work with Baker. And Haslam loves him. And this looks like the Pats last hoorah.
My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains.
I have yet to see anyone lay out a rationale for keeping Freddie that doesn’t include criticizing other fans who have seen enough of what he brings. His inability/refusal/ineffectiveness to make necessary and correct changes doesn’t lead me to believe he’s likely going to “get it” in the off season. It’s why I can’t assume he’ll meaningfully improve because ‘continuity’.
Here's the problem: No coach, NONE, has been given the opportunity of continuity. Other than maybe Hue.
When you keep starting over every 2-2 1/2 years, that isn't continuity. That's starting over, again, and again, and again, and again.
I’d agree that the plug has at time been pulled early. But just because it may be early doesn’t make it the wrong thing to do. Because on the flip side you end up keeping Hue in to the next season and have to fire him halfway through.
Look, I’m fine if folks want to come down on the side of continuity, but I’m really curious as to what they have seen that leads them to believe there will be improvements and we won’t be firing him by Week 8
My scales are tipping and I'm less confident Kitchens remains.
I have yet to see anyone lay out a rationale for keeping Freddie that doesn’t include criticizing other fans who have seen enough of what he brings. His inability/refusal/ineffectiveness to make necessary and correct changes doesn’t lead me to believe he’s likely going to “get it” in the off season. It’s why I can’t assume he’ll meaningfully improve because ‘continuity’.
Here's the problem: No coach, NONE, has been given the opportunity of continuity. Other than maybe Hue.
When you keep starting over every 2-2 1/2 years, that isn't continuity. That's starting over, again, and again, and again, and again.
With the lack of professionalism permeating throughout the team's behavior from both the HC and players, I would not want to keep this staff in place for the sake of continuity. How did continuity work out for the Bengals and Marvin Lewis?
Growing with a rookie HC and seeing progression from learned mistakes is one thing. I've seen nothing change as the year progressed. The team continually lack's discipline each week with on the field play. The misuse of talent on the team. Continually having questionable play calling. These are a few things I've noticed this year. The man remembered he had two of the most dynamic players in the backfield after not even utilizing them in the first have today. Last week, Chubb was dominating the first half of the Steelers game and he decided to ignore the ground game in the second half, contributing to the loss. This year, talent has won the games despite coaching. Each week we are unprepared and consistently do not execute. Had we had a proper HC, we would be pushing the Ravens for division and playoff runnings.
Continuity would be a good as has been pointed out. The article about "disconnect" and internal bickering if accurate could spell the end for Freddie though.
You can not succeed under those circumstances.
No matter where people want to place the blame. The fact is this team has underachieved. Good coaching starts with getting max performance from your players.
The Odell trade was a big deal. The effort is made to bring in a playmaker and the results are not there.
Freddie was given this opportunity because of his relationship with Baker and the teams performance under Freddie as OC.
If the disconnect is between Monken and Freddie; that is on Freddie. This offense with better talent has not produced.
Baker has been inconsistent. That has been part of it. However, there is more at to it than that.
An offense has to develop a playing personalty. By that I mean who are you? What is your identity? Balance, physical, run first, spread, play action, 12, 11 whatever. How are you going to attack? What is our strength?
Right now we have two backs that are premier players. We have two receivers who are premier players. But the talent is not used to full potential. Play calling? IMO it is more the design of the plays. The concepts, spacing, route trees, blocking design, the plays themselves.
If this falls on Freddie then there has to be a better alternative. Can Freddie develop versus a better candidate that we can get?
Freddie has to provide reasons for Dorsey to keep him.
We've won four out of five... beat the steelers, Ravens, and Bengals in the same season, have a chance for winning record for the first time this decade... dude ain't getting fired....
He needs to get better discipline for his team on and off field..... work on chemistry of team... and work on play calling
We've won four out of five... beat the steelers, Ravens, and Bengals in the same season, have a chance for winning record for the first time this decade... dude ain't getting fired....
He needs to get better discipline for his team on and off field..... work on chemistry of team... and work on play calling
There are things that Kitchens needs to improve no doubt. But, I do not think he will get fired. This team needs some consistency thru the off season. Another change will lead to another disappointing season again next year. Make a decision and then stay the course. I think that is what Dorsey will do.
Well, I mean as long as you would be okay with it and all.
Of course We would be better off hiring Ron Rivera and reuniting him with Steve Wilks as those 2 built a D that got the Panthers to a Super Bowl.
Then we can fix our Line and be ready next year. Rivera is a very good coach, and he don't put up with BS either. He is exactly what this organization needs.
Browns only have Arizona and Cincinnati and Baltimore on the schedule remaining, and only have to win 2 to get to 8-8. Cinn, and Ariz are teams the Browns should beat, because of better record, and the Ravens are a team the Browns have already beat, So if your measure to support keeping Freddie is only 8-8 then that's not too high of a bar.
I think more attention needs to be payed to what got them to start out 2-6 in the first place, and what happened in game #1, they had 20 weeks to prepare for that one.
By this point, does it really matter what they do at Head Coach, I mean we've been through so many scnearios,
I'll stay consistent, personally I wish they had stayed with Pettine, who'd be ending his 7th year, and I think Gregg Williams seemed good to end, last year.
Some folks treat these two words as equal and synonymous. They are not. What I have been hearing and reading is speculation. Trying to fire up controversy with hearsay and supposition is both wrong and common. "'Tis the season! Lame, but the PD seems OK with it.
And honestly like I keep saying it's all about Baker. If the organization is committed to him you have to fire Freddie. If they are unsure about Baker, give Freddie another year and see if they can both figure it out. Mayfield has had serious regression this year under Freddie. Other players have as well.
And honestly like I keep saying it's all about Baker. If the organization is committed to him you have to fire Freddie. If they are unsure about Baker, give Freddie another year and see if they can both figure it out. Mayfield has had serious regression this year under Freddie. Other players have as well.
Not sure I understand your twisted way of thinking.
I don't think Baker factors in to any decision on Kitchens.
It is if you blame Freddie for Bakers decline in accuracy and poor decisions in throwing int's. Sometimes people expect responsibility to be given to the one making the mistakes.
Sure Freddie is making his fair share of mistakes. But he isn't standing in the pocket reading the D. He isn't the one going through the progressions. He isn't the one making the decision on where to throw the ball and he isn't the one throwing the rock.
Sophomore slumps aren't that uncommon. When you decide to blame the coach for the shortcomings of your QB is when people people have a problem with it. Especially when it's the exact same coach everyone was giving credit for knowing how to use Baker last season.
I wonder if we can go back in time and do the following:
a) Retain Gregg Williams as head coach. b) Retain Freddie as offensive coordinator and let him build on what we were doing last year, when we were using Haley's scheme. c) Keep Zeitler; use our 1 and 3 to bolster our offensive tackles, or other positions as BPA might dictate. d) Keep building on what our receivers had learned and improved on at the end of the season, without adding a player who you have to force the ball to to keep happy.
I wonder where we would be had we just followed that path. I mean it's easy to blame Freddie for where we are now, and he has made his share of mistakes, but the situation he is in now is totally different than what it was last year.
It's like hiring a qualified head coach but failed GM as lead executive, or hiring a glorified QB coach to be the head coach. It's not really their fault when they fail at something they were never up to in the first place.. the blame is mainly on the people who put them in that situation in the first place.
edit: to add, I'm kind of on the fence about Freddie right now. Don't really like keeping him, don't really like moving on from him after one season either. Maybe these next few weeks will provide more clarity.
People keep repeating it was Haley's scheme. But if so, why did that scheme suck so bad when Haley was here? Then suddenly, it's like someone sprinkled fairy dust on it and it worked like magic?
OBJ has been injured since before the season started. Claiming you have to feed him to keep him happy is pure conjecture. Carrying out that thought..... Would you want a talented WR who was happy not getting the ball when he seemed open quite a bit?
When it comes to keeping Gregg Williams as HC and Freddie as OC, that was my preference.
People keep repeating it was Haley's scheme. But if so, why did that scheme suck so bad when Haley was here? Then suddenly, it's like someone sprinkled fairy dust on it and it worked like magic?
OBJ has been injured since before the season started. Claiming you have to feed him to keep him happy is pure conjecture. Carrying out that thought..... Would you want a talented WR who was happy not getting the ball when he seemed open quite a bit?
When it comes to keeping Gregg Williams as HC and Freddie as OC, that was my preference.
Haley was the one who made the run offense work for the first time since a long long time. He was a great OC, IMHO.
And nobody sprinkled anything, we just fired Hue Jackson.
Lets set Freddie aside for a moment .. What are the feelings on kepping Monken or Wilks ??
I have never been a fan of Air Raid offense - so I don't think I can give a valuable defense of Monken. But we don't know if this is Freddies O, Monkens O, or a combo of both, so to be fair - its hard to say on him.
Wilkes, I would say that I have seen enough. I really dislike the 4-2 - as teams run on us with ease. Once a back gets past the LOS he seems to go for 10 yards every time (I know its not every time, I am being a little over exaggerated , but its not good).
I would say there a few games early that I thought the def looked spectacular, against the RAMS mainly. But later on we learned that the RAMS are just very bad on the road, and not that special after all. So I would be ok with getting him outta here and replacing him.
People keep repeating it was Haley's scheme. But if so, why did that scheme suck so bad when Haley was here? Then suddenly, it's like someone sprinkled fairy dust on it and it worked like magic?
OBJ has been injured since before the season started. Claiming you have to feed him to keep him happy is pure conjecture. Carrying out that thought..... Would you want a talented WR who was happy not getting the ball when he seemed open quite a bit?
When it comes to keeping Gregg Williams as HC and Freddie as OC, that was my preference.
Haley was the one who made the run offense work for the first time since a long long time. He was a great OC, IMHO.
And nobody sprinkled anything, we just fired Hue Jackson.
Our offense was garbage when Haley called the plays, and the second he and hue were outta here the offense soared. Lets not get revisionist history now.
I wonder if we can go back in time and do the following:
a) Retain Gregg Williams as head coach. b) Retain Freddie as offensive coordinator and let him build on what we were doing last year, when we were using Haley's scheme. c) Keep Zeitler; use our 1 and 3 to bolster our offensive tackles, or other positions as BPA might dictate. d) Keep building on what our receivers had learned and improved on at the end of the season, without adding a player who you have to force the ball to to keep happy.
I wonder where we would be had we just followed that path. I mean it's easy to blame Freddie for where we are now, and he has made his share of mistakes, but the situation he is in now is totally different than what it was last year.
It's like hiring a qualified head coach but failed GM as lead executive, or hiring a glorified QB coach to be the head coach. It's not really their fault when they fail at something they were never up to in the first place.. the blame is mainly on the people who put them in that situation in the first place.
edit: to add, I'm kind of on the fence about Freddie right now. Don't really like keeping him, don't really like moving on from him after one season either. Maybe these next few weeks will provide more clarity.
If it was me - I still don't retain Gregg. a lot players didn't respect him - you cant have that.
He had good qualities yes, but I think the negatives outweighed the bad.
I bring in Arians and keep Freddie as OC. Let Arians groom Freddie and work side by side on the leadership sides of things.
As far as the trade goes for OBJ, ehhhh. Peppers is decent, Zietler hasn't done much in NY as that kid has been getting killed behind their line. I still think you make that deal. I think with a better offense gameplan and better structure in the facility - you would see a completely 180 on this offense.
It is if you blame Freddie for Bakers decline in accuracy and poor decisions in throwing int's. Sometimes people expect responsibility to be given to the one making the mistakes.
Sure Freddie is making his fair share of mistakes. But he isn't standing in the pocket reading the D. He isn't the one going through the progressions. He isn't the one making the decision on where to throw the ball and he isn't the one throwing the rock.
Sophomore slumps aren't that uncommon. When you decide to blame the coach for the shortcomings of your QB is when people people have a problem with it. Especially when it's the exact same coach everyone was giving credit for knowing how to use Baker last season.
This is fine if you believe the coach has no impact on the play of the players.
The main idea was to continue the scheme and verbiage that Baker had learned since entering the league so he could build off of that.
Baker and the rest of the offense appeared to be very comfortable with it toward the end of the season so I don't see why there was this undying need to change it? Especially for this merge of Freddie's offense (where did this even come from? He never had his own scheme.. was it from Bruce Arians? If so, why didn't we just hire him?) and Monken's. We should have saw these issues from a mile away.
As for why the offense took off after Haley, that surely had more to do with getting Hue out of there than it did Haley. And sure enough, Hue went on to ruin another AFC North team two weeks later, and they still haven't recovered.
I think Wilks has done a pretty good job with the defense this season considering the injuries and all the "regressions."
A lot better defense than we had to put up with last season.
Idk, I dont see how losing to how many undrafted rookie QBs is pretty good. And its not like the beat us 6-3, they moved the ball with ease at times, and made big plays against us. Pittsburgh made an adjustment at halftime and lit us up moving forward. I think Wilkes defense schedule is weak, allows way too many run plays and just is not that good.
People keep repeating it was Haley's scheme. But if so, why did that scheme suck so bad when Haley was here? Then suddenly, it's like someone sprinkled fairy dust on it and it worked like magic?
OBJ has been injured since before the season started. Claiming you have to feed him to keep him happy is pure conjecture. Carrying out that thought..... Would you want a talented WR who was happy not getting the ball when he seemed open quite a bit?
When it comes to keeping Gregg Williams as HC and Freddie as OC, that was my preference.
Haley was the one who made the run offense work for the first time since a long long time. He was a great OC, IMHO.
And nobody sprinkled anything, we just fired Hue Jackson.
Our offense was garbage when Haley called the plays, and the second he and hue were outta here the offense soared. Lets not get revisionist history now.
Depends on what you call garbage... 0-16 team, tied with Pitt the first game, then lost to NO by 3, then won to the Jets, lost by 3 to Oakland, won to the Ravens, then lost to the Chargers and Bucs by 3.
Meanwhile he left with the Browns being on of the top 10 running offense in the NFL, and IMHO the decline in the Offense was more due to Hue's interference than Haley.
Haley wanted to develop Baker and lean on the Running game, which I agree was the best way. Fans didn't think so... that's why he has such a bad rep here.
People keep repeating it was Haley's scheme. But if so, why did that scheme suck so bad when Haley was here? Then suddenly, it's like someone sprinkled fairy dust on it and it worked like magic?
OBJ has been injured since before the season started. Claiming you have to feed him to keep him happy is pure conjecture. Carrying out that thought..... Would you want a talented WR who was happy not getting the ball when he seemed open quite a bit?
When it comes to keeping Gregg Williams as HC and Freddie as OC, that was my preference.
Haley was the one who made the run offense work for the first time since a long long time. He was a great OC, IMHO.
And nobody sprinkled anything, we just fired Hue Jackson.
Our offense was garbage when Haley called the plays, and the second he and hue were outta here the offense soared. Lets not get revisionist history now.
Depends on what you call garbage... 0-16 team, tied with Pitt the first game, then lost to NO by 3, then won to the Jets, lost by 3 to Oakland, won to the Ravens, then lost to the Chargers and Bucs by 3.
Meanwhile he left with the Browns being on of the top 10 running offense in the NFL, and IMHO the decline in the Offense was more due to Hue's interference than Haley.
Haley wanted to develop Baker and lean on the Running game, which I agree was the best way. Fans didn't think so... that's why he has such a bad rep here.
He also wanted Carlos Hyde starting in front of Chubb, the best RB in the NFL, and as soon as he left our offense took off, by all accounts. Sorry, you have no leg to stand on here.
People keep repeating it was Haley's scheme. But if so, why did that scheme suck so bad when Haley was here? Then suddenly, it's like someone sprinkled fairy dust on it and it worked like magic?
OBJ has been injured since before the season started. Claiming you have to feed him to keep him happy is pure conjecture. Carrying out that thought..... Would you want a talented WR who was happy not getting the ball when he seemed open quite a bit?
When it comes to keeping Gregg Williams as HC and Freddie as OC, that was my preference.
Haley was the one who made the run offense work for the first time since a long long time. He was a great OC, IMHO.
And nobody sprinkled anything, we just fired Hue Jackson.
Our offense was garbage when Haley called the plays, and the second he and hue were outta here the offense soared. Lets not get revisionist history now.
Depends on what you call garbage... 0-16 team, tied with Pitt the first game, then lost to NO by 3, then won to the Jets, lost by 3 to Oakland, won to the Ravens, then lost to the Chargers and Bucs by 3.
Meanwhile he left with the Browns being on of the top 10 running offense in the NFL, and IMHO the decline in the Offense was more due to Hue's interference than Haley.
Haley wanted to develop Baker and lean on the Running game, which I agree was the best way. Fans didn't think so... that's why he has such a bad rep here.
He also wanted Carlos Hyde starting in front of Chubb, the best RB in the NFL, and as soon as he left our offense took off, by all accounts. Sorry, you have no leg to stand on here.
And Carlos Hyde was doing a good job and the OL was doing a good job.. so what is your point?
I'm sure Baker would be a much better QB right now if he had sit and develop,like Haley was doing.
Not saying Todd is a mastermind O guru, but was very competent.
Haley was the one who made the run offense work for the first time since a long long time. He was a great OC, IMHO.
And nobody sprinkled anything, we just fired Hue Jackson.
We sucked when Haley and Hue were here. Freddie made the thing work. History is there for all to see despite this gibberish.
According to you Freddie used the same playbook to win games in the second half of the season that the same O scheme sucked at in the fist half of the season.
Even first grade math blows that theiry out of the water.
Wilkes has been disappointing at times (and that's an understatement when you're talking about not blitzing a QB taking his first NFL snaps), but I think he's done a pretty good job overall. I think he's had to deal with a lot in terms of missing starters throughout the year. Our secondary held up remarkably well earlier in the season down their top 2 corners (and usually a safety or 2). That said, the run defense has been real disappointing, and I was just expecting more big plays overall from them. Ward has been injured, but he's also taken a little bit of a step back from last year. Randall hasn't had the same impact on the field despite being twice the headcase. The defensive line has been decent as far as pressuring the QB, but not as good as I expected, and not good enough to make up the for the run D performance. I think Wilkes maybe needs a little smack upside the head, so to speak... but that's it. I wouldn't mind seeing what we can do with a whopping 2 consecutive offseasons under the same coordinator, but letting him know he's expected to delivery big plays aplenty.
Monken I'm less happy with. There's plenty of mystery surrounding him and what he actually does (bad and good) for the team. I'm not a fan of his preferred offense for us right now, and I wouldn't be able to make any sort of educated guess on whether he's willing or able to mold a new offense that actually fits our key guys. My opinion of Monken can't be shared without mentioning Kitchens. Honestly, based on what we (don't) know regarding the inner workings and construction of the offense, I don't think we can hold one or the other accountable without implicating both. I would hope Dorsey knows the true architect of that abortion of an offense we trotted out there in week 1. I hate recycling coaches, especially ones that had a very light resume coming in (meaning we knew there would be a significant learning curve), but Kitchens has done and said some truly dumb stuff. I'm starting to lean towards keeping him, but there's gotta be some sort of tangible change to help prevent the same things from happening next season. Trouble is, what would that be? I don't think you can take playcalling away from him because the main reason he got the job was because of his work with the offense last year. IMO, all that does is take you back to the question, "Why is Freddie the HC?".
I understand. Twisted minds understand twisted thinking.
Like I said, I don't think Baker has anything to with the ultimate decision on Kitchens. I clearly don't think that if we are going forward with Baker, which we are, means we will dump Kitchens nor do I think if we are unsure about Baker we would keep them both.
I'm not informed enough on McCarthy to contribute to a conversation about him, but I do recall a fair number of posters on here last offseason really not like the idea of him coming here.
I'm not informed enough on McCarthy to contribute to a conversation about him, but I do recall a fair number of posters on here last offseason really not like the idea of him coming here.
I believe if I remember correctly, a lot of people said his offense was outdated and because of how it ended with Rogers.
He has spent by all accounts an entire year, putting together an entire new offense, with a staff already in place, and ready to go.
He also has ties to the FO, and has won a SB.
I think this would be an instant upgrade at the position, and he could come in and stabilize a very volatile locker room.
Are we going to hire him, IDK. Should we, IDK (I think we should). But he is def the TYPE of coach we need.
That sounds great and all, but there's got to be more to his exit from GB.
Also, while Dorsey working things around to get "his" guy a year after the fact sounds pretty plausible, McCarthy was available last offseason. If Dorsey wanted him, he could've had him. Hiring Freddie so McCarthy could chill for a year doesn't sound right to me.
I bring this up because of the alleged quote from Dorsey "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted". I believe this was in reference to the org structure AND his preferred coach. You don't flex your muscles and then turn around a year later say "my guy wasn't any good, this is my guy now". That's a surefire way to get a guy like Haslam to start thinking about YOUR replacement.
I bring this up because of the alleged quote from Dorsey "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted". I believe this was in reference to the org structure AND his preferred coach. You don't flex your muscles and then turn around a year later say "my guy wasn't any good, this is my guy now". That's a surefire way to get a guy like Haslam to start thinking about YOUR replacement.
If your worth your salt as a GM, you need to man up to your mistakes and correct them. Sticking with a guy that is clearly over his head is the SUREFIRE way to lose your job, as your job ultimately depends on winning football games, and Freddie has not shown he can outcoach someone to win a game. IN fact, its been the opposite, we have won DESPITE Freddie blundering decisions.
I'm not informed enough on McCarthy to contribute to a conversation about him, but I do recall a fair number of posters on here last offseason really not like the idea of him coming here.
That was pre-Freddie..... maybe those posters will feel differently now?
I don't think McCarthy as being excellent in any one area - or cutting edge - but to be honest i don't know that a team that is loaded at the skill positions like we are needs to be. My understanding is that he and Aaron Rogers fell out and clashed on play calling/offense - to me from the outside it looked like a failure at the GM level in GB .... Rodgers is a top 1-2-3 QB in the NFL ... failed to build a team around him that can win it all.
Former Green Bay Packers head coach Mike McCarthy hasn't lost his passion for the game during his sabbatical from the sideline. In fact, his interest in getting back in the ring is stronger than ever, as evidenced by a new NFL Network feature. McCarthy has assembled an whole mock coaching staff to go over film and review play-calling trends with a level of commitment and grind that suggests he may as well still be employed.
McCarthy, who went 143-87-2 with a Super Bowl ring in Green Bay, appears to have totally reinvented his playbook, which could go some ways towards erasing the unceremonious end of his tenure with the Packers.
McCarthy almost had a job lined up after he was let go in Green Bay, as the New York Jets brought him in for an interview before ultimately giving the job to Adam Gase.
They may be regretting that decision.
One of the criticisms of McCarthy was that his offense was too simplistic and that he was unwilling to adjust to fit the modern NFL. If he truly has turned over a new leaf and will come prepared with a more innovative offense this time around, every team with a head coach opening should be breaking down McCarthy's door in an attempt to get him to join them.
People keep repeating it was Haley's scheme. But if so, why did that scheme suck so bad when Haley was here? Then suddenly, it's like someone sprinkled fairy dust on it and it worked like magic?
OBJ has been injured since before the season started. Claiming you have to feed him to keep him happy is pure conjecture. Carrying out that thought..... Would you want a talented WR who was happy not getting the ball when he seemed open quite a bit?
When it comes to keeping Gregg Williams as HC and Freddie as OC, that was my preference.
Haley was the one who made the run offense work for the first time since a long long time. He was a great OC, IMHO.
And nobody sprinkled anything, we just fired Hue Jackson.
Our offense was garbage when Haley called the plays, and the second he and hue were outta here the offense soared. Lets not get revisionist history now.
Depends on what you call garbage... 0-16 team, tied with Pitt the first game, then lost to NO by 3, then won to the Jets, lost by 3 to Oakland, won to the Ravens, then lost to the Chargers and Bucs by 3.
Meanwhile he left with the Browns being on of the top 10 running offense in the NFL, and IMHO the decline in the Offense was more due to Hue's interference than Haley.
Haley wanted to develop Baker and lean on the Running game, which I agree was the best way. Fans didn't think so... that's why he has such a bad rep here.
He also wanted Carlos Hyde starting in front of Chubb, the best RB in the NFL, and as soon as he left our offense took off, by all accounts. Sorry, you have no leg to stand on here.
And Carlos Hyde was doing a good job and the OL was doing a good job.. so what is your point?
I'm sure Baker would be a much better QB right now if he had sit and develop,like Haley was doing.
Not saying Todd is a mastermind O guru, but was very competent.
Hyde was terrible last year, both here and in Jax. He was running at a 3.4 yards/rush clip here, and fell off to a 3.3 yards/rush pace in Jacksonville.
He's been goos this year, but he was not last year.
I'm not informed enough on McCarthy to contribute to a conversation about him, but I do recall a fair number of posters on here last offseason really not like the idea of him coming here.
That was pre-Freddie..... maybe those posters will feel differently now?
I don't think McCarthy as being excellent in any one area - or cutting edge - but to be honest i don't know that a team that is loaded at the skill positions like we are needs to be. My understanding is that he and Aaron Rogers fell out and clashed on play calling/offense - to me from the outside it looked like a failure at the GM level in GB .... Rodgers is a top 1-2-3 QB in the NFL ... failed to build a team around him that can win it all.
I was thinking about it, and while they did have Rodgers, and usually ~2 really good Olinemen each year, they really didn't have a ton of good, mainstay guys on that offense. They would have guys step up here and there, and they had a very opportunistic defense the year they won it all.
Regarding your first statement... that's an awful reason to fire/hire, imo.
Former Green Bay Packers head coach Mike McCarthy hasn't lost his passion for the game during his sabbatical from the sideline. In fact, his interest in getting back in the ring is stronger than ever, as evidenced by a new NFL Network feature. McCarthy has assembled an whole mock coaching staff to go over film and review play-calling trends with a level of commitment and grind that suggests he may as well still be employed.
McCarthy, who went 143-87-2 with a Super Bowl ring in Green Bay, appears to have totally reinvented his playbook, which could go some ways towards erasing the unceremonious end of his tenure with the Packers.
McCarthy almost had a job lined up after he was let go in Green Bay, as the New York Jets brought him in for an interview before ultimately giving the job to Adam Gase.
They may be regretting that decision.
One of the criticisms of McCarthy was that his offense was too simplistic and that he was unwilling to adjust to fit the modern NFL. If he truly has turned over a new leaf and will come prepared with a more innovative offense this time around, every team with a head coach opening should be breaking down McCarthy's door in an attempt to get him to join them.
That last part is what worries me. Not that his offense was too simplistic (we could use more simple), but that he was unwilling to change. Willingness to change is a behavior, not a skill. IMO, no coach is unable to change their offense (especially over the period of time that he had in GB). These guys live, breath, and die football for their whole lives. And if they don't know something that they need to know, there are lines of people that do know that are lining up for their NFL coaching shot.
I bring this up because of the alleged quote from Dorsey "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted". I believe this was in reference to the org structure AND his preferred coach. You don't flex your muscles and then turn around a year later say "my guy wasn't any good, this is my guy now". That's a surefire way to get a guy like Haslam to start thinking about YOUR replacement.
If your worth your salt as a GM, you need to man up to your mistakes and correct them. Sticking with a guy that is clearly over his head is the SUREFIRE way to lose your job, as your job ultimately depends on winning football games, and Freddie has not shown he can outcoach someone to win a game. IN fact, its been the opposite, we have won DESPITE Freddie blundering decisions.
I agree, but 1 year for a coach isn't right. Some of the same ones who were bemoaning the loss of Chud after 1 season are now eager to see Freddie go. Go figure.
Dorsey isn't going to pull the plug after 1 season unless we melt down these last 3 games, and even then it only takes it to 50/50.
I can't see how anybody who has followed this team for years could possibly want to fire another coach after one season. Insanity. s Sure up the Oline and people will be singing his praises.
I can't see how anybody who has followed this team for years could possibly want to fire another coach after one season. Insanity. s Sure up the Oline and people will be singing his praises.
Freddie is incompetent and the players know it. And the fans know it.
I have seriously given more credence to Wylie's claims that Baker and the offense's success last 8 games of 2018 had more to do with Zampese than Freddie.
Freddie firing KZ and hiring Lindley definitely hasn't helped Baker in season 2. Nepotism usually doesn't help a situation nor does it always mean a hire is the "best person" for the job. Pettine and his good chum Jim O'Neil are great examples of that.
for the life of me, i still dont understand why we fired the Chud staff. that was probably the best group of coaches we had since the return.
I think the BIGGEST mistake since our return was keeping Pettine and Jim O'Neil and allowing Kyle Shanahan to leave. IMAGINE if after that powerpoint we fired Pettine instead and promoted Shanny to HC. IMAGINE.
for the life of me, i still dont understand why we fired the Chud staff. that was probably the best group of coaches we had since the return.
Chud was kind of a default hire after Chip Kelly left the Browns at altar so to speak, if I recall. I'm not sure everyone (Haslam, Banner, Lombardi) ever really bought in on Chud.
Then, I believe, at the time, Banner/Lombardi had convinced Haslam, that they needed to fire Chud b/c of a lack of improvement and that they would be able to land the big name coach/hot coaching candidate.
This quick firing also lead to the press conference in which Haslam was asked by the reporter if the team was being run by the three stooges.
Lombardi had pegged McDaniels as his guy and Banner had reservations. McDaniels eventually withdrew his name. The infighting began amongst those two leading to the alleged disastrous interview with Whisenhunt shouting at Banner. Adam Gase later declined an interview. And after a lengthy search ended up with Pettine. Lombardi and Banner were shortly fired thereafter. We were then blessed with Ray Farmer.
Who could forget Pettine's daughter's famous tweet that he had to address at his introductory press conference where she said her dad was going back for a second interview and how excited she was, but stated, "It's the Browns, but hey, still pretty cool!"
I always enjoy a fun trip down Browns Memory Lane!
for the life of me, i still dont understand why we fired the Chud staff. that was probably the best group of coaches we had since the return.
Chud was kind of a default hire after Chip Kelly left the Browns at altar so to speak, if I recall. I'm not sure everyone (Haslam, Banner, Lombardi) ever really bought in on Chud.
Then, I believe, at the time, Banner/Lombardi had convinced Haslam, that they needed to fire Chud b/c of a lack of improvement and that they would be able to land the big name coach/hot coaching candidate.
This quick firing also lead to the press conference in which Haslam was asked by the reporter if the team was being run by the three stooges.
Lombardi had pegged McDaniels as his guy and Banner had reservations. McDaniels eventually withdrew his name. The infighting began amongst those two leading to the alleged disastrous interview with Whisenhunt shouting at Banner. Adam Gase later declined an interview. And after a lengthy search ended up with Pettine. Lombardi and Banner were shortly fired thereafter. We were then blessed with Ray Farmer.
Who could forget Pettine's daughter's famous tweet that he had to address at his introductory press conference where she said her dad was going back for a second interview and how excited she was, but stated, "It's the Browns, but hey, still pretty cool!"
I always enjoy a fun trip down Browns Memory Lane!
And then Pettine got fired and everyone wanted to hire Sean McDermott. . . except Jimmy Haslam.
for the life of me, i still dont understand why we fired the Chud staff. that was probably the best group of coaches we had since the return.
Chud was kind of a default hire after Chip Kelly left the Browns at altar so to speak, if I recall. I'm not sure everyone (Haslam, Banner, Lombardi) ever really bought in on Chud.
Then, I believe, at the time, Banner/Lombardi had convinced Haslam, that they needed to fire Chud b/c of a lack of improvement and that they would be able to land the big name coach/hot coaching candidate.
This quick firing also lead to the press conference in which Haslam was asked by the reporter if the team was being run by the three stooges.
Lombardi had pegged McDaniels as his guy and Banner had reservations. McDaniels eventually withdrew his name. The infighting began amongst those two leading to the alleged disastrous interview with Whisenhunt shouting at Banner. Adam Gase later declined an interview. And after a lengthy search ended up with Pettine. Lombardi and Banner were shortly fired thereafter. We were then blessed with Ray Farmer.
Who could forget Pettine's daughter's famous tweet that he had to address at his introductory press conference where she said her dad was going back for a second interview and how excited she was, but stated, "It's the Browns, but hey, still pretty cool!"
I always enjoy a fun trip down Browns Memory Lane!
And then Pettine got fired and everyone wanted to hire Sean McDermott. . . except Jimmy Haslam.
Regarding your first statement... that's an awful reason to fire/hire, imo.
Sorry for not being clearer - my first comment in that post was intended to imply that having watched/witnessed Freddie as HC and his poor performance and lack of growth, maybe people feel differently now about wanting to replace him.
As for McCarthy, I had GB fans who were frustrated with him about 2-3 years ago. But Rogers was getting hurt, their D was pretty tame, they never seemed to have enough on O other than elite QB and a couple of really good WR's - but the WR (at least one maybe more) who left GB never repeated the success they had elsewhere so you figure Rogers is really helping the WR's look good. If we do decide to replace Freddie - McCarty is exactly the sort of candidate I want - no newbie college coaches, no promoted OC's who might or might not be the next best thing .... And the way he is prepping for a staff, scouting and continue to work/hustle says McCarthy is uber hungry. I like that.
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