I'm just sitting here watching Browns 5th Quarter They ran a poll on who is the better QB. Baker, Lamar or Allen, Baker had over 60% Lamar 34% and allen6%. I love Baker like a son but damn that Lamar is good.

I know Swish really liked Lamar . I disagreed with him but now not as much. Lamar is a once in a generation player. I'm still not sure how long he can stay healthy.

I'm wondring how you Dawgs feel Would you trade Baker for Lamar? Not that either team would do it....I'm still a Baker guy.

Baker all day every day

Well, if you have Lamar you have to change a lot of your personnel and OL and scheme, play calling, etc ... it’s a full commitment. It would mean we’d have to change a lot IMO

Baker over Lamar any day ... JMHO

I'm a Baker fan all day, but Lamar is out playing all expectations IMHO and there is not even a comparison this year. That run in the Cincy game today by Lamar was magical. It was like he was a ghost just vanishing in front of defenders.

I gotta say ... Jackson is really impressing me. I still think that he has a ways to go to be a "great passer", but man, he is a big time weapon.

He’s way ahead of the curve compared to what most thought ... and he’s surrounded by a great run game/play makers tailored to him

Baker got drafted into a dysfunctional organization with a poor, loser culture. There's a good chance that at the start of his 3rd year, Baker will be on his 4th head coach. The Browns GM has been on the job under 2 years.

Lamar got drafted into a functional organization with an outstanding, winning culture. They have the same coach going on something like 10 years. Their GM was part of a succession plan put in place to maintain continuity in approach and culture. Their defense lost its three best players, but their defensive standards are still high.

All of this matters. Here's a better question...do you think Lamar would be having the same success with the Browns? If you do, you've answered your own question. He's better than Baker. If the question makes you pause, then maybe you agree there's something to what I'm saying.

You know it's funny...I thought Allen played reasonably well today especially when he had time to throw...I went over to a Bills board and they lambasting the guy with comments like "he's not a franchise QB".

I think fans are neurotic about their own teams.

It's funny ..... one Harbaugh brother made a runner/thrower in Kapernick into a decent option at QB and even got to a Super Bowl ..... and the other is doing the same with Lamar.

Really, no other modern team is doing the same.

Uh.............you were in the game day thread. The negativity was beyond belief. You were part of it.


Run chubb.......dammit, why'd they run chub? Get OBJ the ball.........dammit, why they tossing to him? Kick the fieldgoal...............last week griping about kicking field goals.

Yes, I include myself as part of the neurotic.

Browns fans are never happy.

Tell us what there is to be happy about.

I actually agree... Lamar here and we're not better. He went to the best place for him, much like mahomes.

Josh Allen is the Jeff George of franchise quarterbacks.

I still don't think he's good and I'm glad he's not here. But i think he also went to a better situation than most realize.

A win.

Obviously.

At least rish admitted it.

I'll not be soon going back to the game day thread during the game. Only reason I was there today was because it's one of what seems to be yearly games where the Browns weren't on here.

The negativity was unreal. The "fire Freddie" comments, and worse, were just ..............to me, pathetic. Idiotic, really.

The several people that have probably never played a down of football in their lives calling our coach, and players, stupid........demanding they be fired?

Eh, at least I get to see the rest of the games myself. Didn't go to a bar to watch today, cause my daughter was home.......plus, I don't like going to a bar/restaurant to watch a game anyway.

There's negativity because the Browns are 3-6 and to the naked unprofessional eye they don't look like they are coached very well. Tons of penalties. No flow to the offense. Consistently calling plays that the team seems to struggle with. Bizarre rationale in pressers on legitimate questions about decision making. All during a season where the Browns supposedly added talent and were supposed to compete for the division.

Is it really that hard to understand?

I mean some of the in game stuff is over the top. But in general this fanbase has a lot of reason to be negative.

Okay.

Today was the first I "watched" a game on the game day forum. I was amazed at the negativity.

Baker has heart, but Lamer is outplaying him and a lot of others in the NFL, he's on a team that is 7-2, Baker's team is 3-6, that speaks volumes. Not saying it's all Baker's fault, in fact, it is not, a lot of our issues fall back to coaching, same as always. (albeit, we've had out lack of talent times, as well.)

There's plenty enough talent on this team, we should be 6-3 but we're not and the Rats are leading and likely winning the division.

Now, as for the long haul, unsure, Baker could turn out great or could stay around mediocre, just depends on coaching and talent around him.

I'm way too biased to answer this question, being an Oklahoma fan. Having admitted that, OU boards are going insane over Jalen Hurts, a running QB. He's actually got better passing stats than Baker OR Kyler through the same number of starts....but his running is off the charts! And fans are NOT happy with him. It's like he's going for the Heisman rather than for the team win. At least that's the perception. (and I don't really buy it...fans are so fickle...but WHAT would we know about that, lol).

I think Lamar is a good guy, who wants to win. But if his running starts to give off a "me" aura, instead of a team vibe, look out. That said, he is amazing, and my hat's off to the Ravens for their utilization of him.

The most significant thing you said there, rishuz, was “ to the naked unprofessional eye”. a bunch of folks who watch games from their living room think they know more about calling plays in the nfl than coaches who make a living doing just that. A bit like me critiquing the performance of my cardiac surgeon during open heart surgery.

Funny thing is we ran a textbook drive in our first drive today and a great drive on our final possession. Apparently that was smart Freddie. The rest of the game play calling was done by moron Freddie. Except of course they were the same guy. Maybe the difference was execution by the players on the field.

Well Freddie and Monken. Who designed the plays for the goal line 8 play beat down? Can't get it in, in 7 plays and don't even try for a FG on the final play?

That's some Captain Stupid right there. Whoever designed it and called it.

It's not like this RZ problem is new. They had this problem all season.

That, and not playing Higgins because of a "beef".

Maybe someday Freddie will put the team first instead of himself.

Interesting article that came out on cbs sports line saying the browns analytics team said stefanski should have been HC, so now we know how dorsey “flexed his muscle”

The team before "99" ...Or the ugh !!! you knowww ..them otherrrrrrs

However you can't argue with the results.

The Browns are 3-6.

Let me repeat that...3-6.

Baker outplayed lamar head to head browns 1-0 verses ravens this year end of debate.

That's my worry about hm.... one hit and he could be done.... long term I'm hoping baker isn't better but this year Lamar is balling...

2-1 lifetime vs Baltimore.

As the resident Lamar fanboy on this board, let me address this in as much detail as i can, that way, EVERYBODY on this board is very clear on where i stand with this topic, as of now:

while i get the reason you made this thread, DD, i actually think its unfair to Baker to ask this question right now.

Rish continues to bring up the one excellent point: lamar went to a stable, winning organization, that knows how to develop players and stay consistent. Remember, this is the same organization that stuck by Kyle Boller for a while before giving up on him due to injuries and inconsistent play.

the browns give up on guys the moment fans start booing them.

we are also an organization with little to no history of tailoring offenses to a QB's skillset, only trying to force players to fit a scheme. The ravens do round pegs in round holes, while the browns do square pegs in round holes.

so for Rish, he is right when it comes to that. based on history since 99, there's absolutely no reason to believe lamar would've had the same success here as he is in baltimore right now.

so i hope everybody understand point 1: there's no one here who can claim lamar would be better as a brown than baker, as its pure speculation based when you look at it from a big picture standpoint.

now, to point 2, which is the actual skillset, development, and success between baker and lamar

**disclaimer* i know nobody in the organization reads our boards, but we talk about this team because its OUR team, so understand that when i say what i say *****

Edromeo and i tried to tell all of yall on this board about lamar's dynamic ability. we straight up told yall, and yall constantly went after us.

remember, yall went after me after i said we needed to draft Watson, and the majority of this board were hellbent on Trubisky, despite having only 1 year of starting experience and no accomplishments.

and look how that turned out.

yall didnt want to listen when we explained to you guys that Lamar also threw over 3500 yards passing with a great TD:int ratio. yall blew it off

yall didnt listen when we explained to you that Lamar's coach was Petrino, who coached a pro level offense that Lamar had to learn in Louisville. yall blew it off.

yall didnt listen when we explained to you that most of lamar's runs were scrambles in college, and that he actually played very well in the pocket when given time. yall blew it off.

yall didn't listen when we explained to you that lamar was actually very accurate, and that he had very little talent to throw to in louisville. yall blew it off.

yall didn't listen when explained to you that lamar's last season stastically was BETTER than the previous season when he won the heisman. yall blew it off.

i stated during the 2018 draft season that if i was to rank the QB's, it would be Baker, Lamar, Rosen, Darnold, Allen. i wish somebody could find those draft threads cause we can see everybody's stance on that.

but if we had an organization that actually tailored to a players skillset, then it we shouldve drafted lamar. but because we aren't, you HAVE to pick the most accurate QB, the guy with the moxy, the passion, the leadership, and the guy who can play in the pocket, and that was baker mayfield.

as of right now, THAT HASNT CHANGED.

look, i love lamar as a QB. yall all know that. but jesus guys, baker BROKE the rookie TD record. he went toe to toe against lamar last season in a BIG game for both teams. Baker is that dude, i have his jersey, i rep the guy even though im critical of him, and i really do believe the guy will bring us titles.

but some of you guys have a very archaic way of evaluating QB's. its why you missed on Lamar AND Watson. which is crazy because when it comes to those two, this board always criticize them because they arent your typical Golden boy prospect.

but then all of a sudden when it comes to guys like baker, who arent the typical golden boy prospect, yall make it about "it factor" and "will to win" and such.

yall have to understand that from my perspective, its a massive contradiction on yall part. yall like stereotypical QB's.....until all of a sudden, you don't. and then you guys would try your asses off to find any sort of unconventional standard to evaluate Lamar despite the fact that STAT wise, the ONLY QB that was a better prospect than lamar was indeed Baker. not allen, not rosen, and for damn sure not darnold.

Lamar is only 22. yet guys like YTown act like lamar would never develop into a passer. the guy has INSANE talent, and now look.

the guy is making tons of plays from the pocket, is accuracy has improved tremendously because he has the work ethic AND talent to improve. he's not taking big hits despite running a lot, and he's leading his teams to victory, and getting some MVP hype right now. and once again, he's about to lead his team to a division title. you guys were absolutely wrong with your evaluation of Lamar jackson.

but Baker has shown insane accuracy. he shown he can read defenses. he shown he can make all the throws, he is a guy that fits NE ohio better than Lamar does simply because of the blue collar nature of our fanbase. the issue right now is our HC and offensive scheme. i dunno if we would even be having this conversation had we kept williams as the HC and kept the same offensive scheme, because maybe it would be baker with the mvp hype, with the 7-2 record, etc.

as of right now, i still want Baker over Lamar, due to a plethora of reasons.

but i have said it before, and ill say it again: we ALL have to acknowledge one thing:

Baker mayfield's offensive coaches in oklahoma were WAAAAYYY BETTER than what he has now. our coaches suck. they arent focusing on baker's mechanics, and the guy is basically winging it out there. we need better coaches or Baker will be ruined to the point that we will never know who is truly better.

+1000

Honestly, I think All the Qb of the 2018 NFL draft class are severely flawed, just in different ways.

Mayfield is too short and lacks athletic ability compared to guys like Jackson and Allen. He does have an above average arm and seems smart enough. Question his commitment, he has regressed this year, you can tell he didn't watch much film or work too much on football this offseason as he is having trouble even reading basic zone coverage, but he had time to make 20+ commercials. Sorry it has to be said and its valid point no matter how many Baker lovers don't like it. He should have been working on football instead of filming commercials.

Jackson isn't really a natural passer and relies more his athleticism than football smarts. Seems to be the hardest worker of the group considering his major jump from year one to year two.

Josh Allen is stright up raw, has the most potential of all of the QB in that draft class, but won't really hit his stride till year 4 barring any major coaching changes. He came from a small program and simply needs time to learn the NFL game, but he is probably the best passer of the whole group in terms of pure talent.

Sam Darnold was probably the safest pick of the group. I only rated him slightly above Mayfield simply due to his physical traits (6'3 225), and having played at USC as I see the PAC 10 as a much stronger conference than the Big 12, no one plays D in the Big 12, Sam Darnold played against much better D in the PAC 10. Darnold would need a year longer than Mayfield to really hit his groove since he played less season of college ball than Mayfield which means he was less experienced.

Overall I had the QB rated based purely on talent and risk as and my ratings haven't changed.:

Darnold
Allen
Mayfield
Jackson

I still see Mayfield as the 3rd best QB from the 2018 draft class. That doesn't mean we can't win with him though, he is just a bigger risk/chance than Darnold or Allen would have been. Of course Allen or Darnold would have taken another year or two worth of commitment which the Browns have a history or lack there of which is probably why they took Mayfield.

I still don't think we can properly compare any of these guys post draft until ABOUT 2021.

Good post Swish,

I remember prior to the draft stating Lamar Jackson was the most polarizing prospect since Mike Vick...Just a fabulous athlete, game breaking speed, and superb arm strength...he can just throw anything with relative ease. I remember someone asked me if I thought he was worth a 1st round pick...And I knew for certain if Kizer went in round 2 (Who I thought was a round 4 talent) That Jackson should be a 1st round pick, no questions...I also remember Jackson's last year, he lost all 4 of his WRs to graduation...And he still balled out like crazy.

I admit he wasn't my number one guy though...

I hated Trubisky and saw nothing much in him at all...Loved Watson as my #1 prospect as well.

I still remember telling everyone Blake Bortles is nothing like Big Ben besides maybe in frame....I loved Bridgewater coming out.

A lot saw Baker as Drew Brees...I saw him more of Jon Kitna.

I will admit I was wrong on Mariota and Rosen though hahaha

You make a valid point, players are at fault for execution, much ofthe time, but, just to play devil's advocate, who teaches execution? I believe that is thecoaches. Freddie has shown his inability to learn, he does the same thing over and over and he has only 3 wins to show for it. Play callign is important, is it possible he's NOT calling the right plays for the talent he has on offense?

and thats fine bro. i understand 100% why people wouldnt make lamar their #1. but my beef was the constant moving of the goalpost people did in order to disregard lamar as nothing more than a glorified running back.

if people used the same standard to evaluate lamar that they did with other QB's, there'd be a lot less drama in the debate. and i admit i drove a lot of that drama.

but keep the same standard. if people will make excuses when it comes to talent or lack thereof of the supporting cast for one QB, then they better keep that same standard when evaluating another QB.

that didn't happen with watson, and that didnt happen with lamar.

i wasnt tripping about Bakers height because guys like Brees and Wilson changed that narrative. you can play or you can't. and hell look at kyler murray. the guy isn't any taller than my mom, and yet here he is, absolutely balling.

i think a lot of people missed on Rosen. i got convinced to like Rosen by Vers, and....eh. he reminds me a lot of Goff, in regards to needing a really creative coach and talent due to a lack of athleticism.

so far i was wrong about Allen. the guy is developing nicely and really reminds me of Cam Newton in his play style and raw talent.

Baker all day and night long.

If Baker and Lamar run the same read-option play does the defense react the same?

I'll take baker because 1. We cant have Lamar 2. No running QB lasts long 3. Baker can be good for a very long time. He needs to get past this sophomore slump

Lamar couldn't get the broadside of a barn when he passed the ball in college. He has grown up a lot and had really put in the work in the offseason.

How is this even a question?

Greg Roman was the offensive coordinator for both teams during their "running" QB stages as well. The guy has been mediocre otherwise, but has a knack for that type of offense/QB.

Don't think its true... Lamar always had a good arm and has always been a good passer.

Same for Deshaun. I also think its a requirement for mobile QB's to be good passers, specially have good arms and the ability to throw from unconventional platforms.

j/c

Just because you mentioned the term OC ... I read the report that said we wanted Stefanski from Minnesota, but Jimmy and Dorsey went with FK.

I have to say: Minnesota’s offense looks A LOT like I’d want ours to ... and they have very similar personnel (Cook, Diggs, Thielen, and a serviceable QB) ... dang

This was true last year as well and but Baker played better last year.

I look at the question in similar but slightly different way. But both of our questions require detailed look at each QBs skillset and how those skills fit in with their respective teams.

Simply put though, I think if you insert Lamar into this current iteration of the Browns the offense/team would improve. If you're into advanced stats they try to quantify this through EPA (expected points added) and Lamar's EPA is significantly higher then Baker's (even if you isolate passing and exclude running).

j/c...

Nothing like cherry picking stats to try and prove your point.

Why are you even discussing this?

This topic should be deleted or moved to the smack shack.

It doesn't matter at all until they get some stability and a competent coaching scheme.

Everybody knows Baker is the best QB of any one drafted the year he came out, but the Browns' organizational dysfunction have gone a ways toward ruining him,

as they would have any of the others that could have come to the Browns.

I wasn't trying to prove any point. Just an interesting tweet. Lamar has been impressive in his young career.

I'd rather have Baker.

So in other words.... "I told you so".

Baker is a QB Lamar is a RB trying to be a QB ...

Really?

He's thrown 15 td's and 5 int's so far this season.

He threw for 88.2% pass completions yesterday. He's thrown for 65.9% completions for the season.

If he's "trying" he's doing pretty well at it.

Really I would take Baker everyday of the week Lamar is one hit away from being finished he runs way to much and most of his passes are behind the LOS to 10 yards down field ...

Umm...don’t most QBs throw passes between the LOS and 10 yards?

How’s is that somehow a knock on Lamar? This is exactly what I’m talking about. These imaginary narratives, as if that same standard doesn’t apply to Baker or anyone else.

Lamar might be one hit away, but we’ve already seen Baker take WAY harder shots than Lamar this season and last.

And he runs no where near as much. That’s a fact.

Looking objectively... Lamar has done what has been asked of him and he's done it reasonably well.... as for how good he is and what his stats "prove"...

Of his 15 TDs, 8 of them came in 2 games against the Dolphins and the Bengals... Against teams with a .500 or better record, (4 games, New England, KC, Seattle, Pittsburgh).. he has 2 TDs and 3 INTs.. but the Ravens are 3-1.. soooo, there is that.

Lamar has been put in a perfect situation, a strong running team with a good defense and organizational stability... he's not making many mistakes, he's using his legs very well, and he's almost constantly throwing from good situations because they don't make a lot of mistakes, they get up in games, and they are usually ahead of the chains...

I wasn't trying to suggest that I would take Lamar over Baker. But let's be honest here, a QB is given a game plan and expected to execute it.

Claiming Lamar is "learning to do that" seems rather silly.

In the words of Mike Tyson, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

The Ravens, and Lamar, have done an excellent job of developing and executing gameplans.. that's why Lamar's rating in the 1st quarter is like 134... that's why they have only really been behind in 2 games all year in the second half... and they lost both of them...

It's to Lamar's credit that he hasn't had to execute game winning drives because they are almost always ahead early... but at some point he is going to have to win a game late and we will see if he can do it.

You mean like the October game against Pittsburgh?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=JackLa00

I don't think anyone is afraid of Lamar Jackson having to pass his way to get a come from behind victory.

The Ravens look like a total one and done team in the playoffs. They are not as good as they appear.

For perspective...

The game winning "drive" in this game was the result of a JuJu Smith-Schuster fumble at their own 35 yard line giving the ball to the Ravens already in FG range for Tucker.

The drive consisted of:

Jackson rushed for 3 yards
Ingram rushes for 1 yard
Jackson rushes for 2 yards.

Tucker boots GW 46 yard FG.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201910060pit.htm#all_pbp

That's a lot of perspective.

And they won!

Yea.. he was 2 for 2 for 17 yards on 2 dump offs and about 5 running plays to get into FG range... He got the win, good for him... He did enough. Not sure why you think I'm bashing Lamar because I'm not.. just saying, I haven't seen a guy who can overcome adversity and win a game late... maybe he can...

I was simply responding to this.

So sense Baker has beat him badly in head to head does that make Mayfield hall of fame material ?

Pit, I will just conclude my participation in this debate with this... I think Baker and Lamar both still have a LONG way to go to prove that they possess the entire skill set and can be consistent enough to be a teams 12-15 year franchise QB...

I think Baker benefitted last year from a LOT of hype because of how historically bad the Browns have been.. I mean, raising somebody from the dead is far more impressive than just keeping somebody alive to begin with.... and that's what Baker appeared to do.

Lamar is benefitting this year from the organizational situation, which is ideal for a QB like him...

Baker got punched in the mouth at the beginning of this year.. he seems to be coming around... Lamar is really yet to get punched in the mouth with any serious adversity but he will.. then we will see how he responds...

The jury is still out on both of them. For now Lamar is certainly having more success. I do however agree we will not know who Lamar really is until adversity comes knocking.

My comments were purely based on the production of the two at this point in time.

and he's still never going to be a Cleveland Brown

But oh, those commercials! I can relate to the newest one where Baker is trying to find the alarm that is beeping.

But I digress...

Call me giddy, but I think Kareem Hunt is going to have a bigger effect on this offense, let alone Baker, than I thought. Can't wait to see this progression when next we play the Ravens...ergo, Lamar. And maybe Freddy's a second half of the season kind of coach. He'll put it all together next year...I hope.

I think (or at least I hope) that Freddie and a number of our players approach the off-season completely different than they did last year.

Lamar IF he comes with Harbaugh.

Harbaugh is a fantastic coach and uses the strengths of his players wisely.

I just don't see Kitchens having done the same, or worse, maybe Lamar comes in when Baker would've with Jackson still as coach, runs around a bit and makes some magic before the Defenses catches up giving us a few wins. Then we still have Hue as head coach. No thanks to that.

Can't just pick the player in a bubble.

I predict Lamar will be out of the league in less than 5 years and Mayfield will still be in Cleveland. Lamar will have a MAJOR injury, and after that he'll never be the same again. Its not a matter of if but when.

Way to early to get an accurate read on this comparison.

Baker was taken number one for many reasons. Lamar was taken 32 for reasons.

At that point everything changes. Once into the NFL everything changes.

Lamar and Baker are two different cats. They play a different game. Both of the offenses have to cater the offense to their quarterback. Both teams have done that.

Lamar was not a accurate passer in college. What you see is what Lamar was. An exceptional talent learning to play quarterback. He has made giant strides as a passer. His running ability is unique. He is doing some amazing things this year.

Baker came out of college as a analytics dream. It was part of the reason he was drafted number one. That and his ability as a leader. He will never be able to run like Lamar. He has to depend on his ability to pass the ball accurately.

The Ravens have be applauded. They traded Flacco and committed to Lamar. They tailored the offense to take full advantage of his skills. Lamar has delivered. Better than anyone imagined.

Baker struggled early. Then took off after the head coaching change. He put up super numbers especially in the red zone. Arguable should have won ROY.

This year it has been a struggle early. He has played poorly. The team has played poorly. The coaching staff has not figured out how to run this team. The last three games there has been improvement. Both in Baker's play and in team play.

But you can not judge a career based upon little more than a season. There is no reason why both players can not be great. But the NFL is a hard training ground and lots can happen.

So at this point it is incomplete.

I am glad we have Baker. I was a Darnold guy. Still believe he will be a very good quarterback.

A quarterback has to have a team to reach team goals.

I like Baker's chances. He is a driven guy with skill. That goes a long way. If the Browns can build a true team; I think we will be haapy to have Baker.

When was the last time you watch Tom Brady QB?

FYI, Baker has only been effective this year when he has thrown quick reads and short routes.

Where do people get this idea that Lamar wasn't accurate in college?

Accuracy depends on the system on what type of QB you are. A mobile QB will require and have much lower comp.% than a WCO QB.

Lamar can be good with high 50's low 60's % completion, while Baker has to be on the high 60's 70% completion %.

Its obvious to me that Lamar is so much more accurate and throws so much better on the move than Baker ever did.

From watching him play QB...rather than reading about his stats.

Strikes me as a new iteration of Vick. He threw better and nobody could catch him. Then he got stopped. Wasn't Slash the same deal? Hurt people with legs, then gone.

Lamar is having individual success and deserves most of the credit. I do not think it can last.

Baker isn't there yet. But I believe in his upside. Baker.

The thing that stopped Vick was a prison sentence.

That and his lack of dedication/common sense.

What the Ravens are doing with LJ is remarkable, commendable, genius, etc. They are putting him in positions to have success and slowly develop his QB skills while unleashing his crazy athletic gift. It's simply brilliant and something I didn't think was possible...but he and they have clearly pulled that off thus far. It is the classic case of a QB going to the "right" team. With each passing week - no pun intended - he becomes closer to being a POTENTIALLY legit NFL QB. Good for him.

On the flip side is a guy like Rosen. Who knows whether that guy has legit POTENTIAL or not? We and he may never find that out. His is the classic case of a QB going to the wrong team(s). Sucks for him.

I'd still take Baker over either one because I think he's a decade-long type of QB. Last year I thought his situation was perfect for him - similar to LJ's at B'More this year. Now, I'm not so sure. Rather than build the team to suit the QB, we went a little bananas and weakened the interior of the line, didn't improve a bit at OT and weakened the TE group...not to mention getting AWAY from a scheme he was comfortable in last year. The OPPOSITE of what B'More did for LJ.

If the guys switched teams, Baker would be Peyton and Lamar would be RG3/Rosen. And I say that more due to coaching and scheme than raw talent - which they BOTH have. The Ravens did and do what whatever is necessary to help LJ succeed. I cannot say/see that about the Browns right now. JMO

That's what puzzles me, because I was watching him in college and always thought he had an amazing arm, he is capable of amazing throws in a less than ideal platform. Just like Darnold, but Lamar has much better decision making skills.

I don't think mobile QB can excel without top notch arm talent. Lamar is like RG3 without all the problems...

If there were not accuracy issues with Lamar in college; he would have never lasted to the 32nd pick.

His throwing mechanics were poor. Very narrow base when throwing from the pocket. It starts there and that leads to to a whole lot of other problems. Stride, hip turn, release.

He missed guys who were wide open by yards.

He has worked on it. His improvement as a passer is something I did not foresee. It is hard to correct the kinds of problems he had in so short a time.

He was far from a natural thrower.

Vick had most of his best years AFTER he got out of prison, playing for a not-very-good Eagles team.. He had more opportunity in ATL before prison and only managed one decent winning record..

Lamar has 10x the upside that Vick had..

I always wonder about the health of running QB's. At some point Jackson will have to limit his running. Will that negate some of his effectiveness? Yes.

So the sooner we can make him stop running, the less effective he becomes.

Cam Newton thinks Lamar is going to get hurt.

The process is almost the same with all QB's. In the end is the ability to process quickly, make good decisions, develop under pressure and being able to execute.

Wilson and Deshaun can do it, RG3 and Mariotta couldn't. I like what I see in Lamar, the kid is composed and is doing things right. He has got very good arm talent..

j/c

Baker once again made several throws last night that no other QB drafted in 2018 could make today.

He's steadily got better as the season has gone on. When he steps up in the pocket, he's deadly because he's accurate and willing to push the ball downfield.

Yes, like the inability to keep his mouth shut and blame this season on others for example?

Inexcusable means you can't make excuses... like accountability means you don't blame others for your inability.

So...when did he blame others for his own shortcomings? Exactly?

We can't keep playing like this... using the WE. Its inexcusable what Garret did and that's why we are losing...

When we win its because I wake up feeling dangerous, when we lose is because other fail..

No, we are like this because I've thrown more int's than TD's, and I have sucked and lost the season...

If you don't have anything good to say about your team or your team mates, you shut up. Plain and simple, the only one you are allowed to criticize in public is yourself.

That was a great Adam Schiff imitation.

Your putting words into Baker's mouth he never uttered with sentiment that doesn't represent who he is one bit.

There was a different energy about Bake last night. Perhaps his meds kicked in...

Am I really, he starts by saying he didn't see it and then proceeds to rip Garret and the O apart...

I'm sure its not just me that felt this way... Didn't like it a bit.

And I do think he is improving, he just needs to shut up.

You're reaching on something that isn't there. Surprisingly Baker was the only adult yesterday. Freddie was so frazzled he couldn't put a sentence together.

Something tells me Baker is going to rally this team.

Yes, its going to be fun watching him play in Pitt with a big target on his back and having talked the way he talked...

Maybe it will light his fire... Hope he wakes up feeling dangerous.

Why would he have a target on his back? He didnt back Myles.

They will want payback for Mason... and they sure love kicking Browns Qb's.. They don't have problems with that, and the fans neither.

Baker should know better, he did plenty of inexcusable things in the fields in the past... worst thing is to have team mates on the other side.

Never expected this, I was actually expecting the opposite... and would have liked to see it.

But you are right, I'm sure seeing to much on the whole deal,but like you said, he didn't back Myles...

About time a guy steps up and lights a fire under see these deadbeats arses!

Because MG didn't need backing. Baker spoke the truth and I bet MG agrees with everything Baker said. I am 100% certain that no only does the NFL not want players hitting other players who are helmetless with helmets .... I am sure the players don't want that either. As much as a small band of Browns fans want to say "YAY" we fought back against the big bad Steelers as if somehow this was a W ... that's a reaction devoid of reality or perspective.

What are you even talking about?

The most absurd things I read on this board come from the anti-baker cult.


I think if anything, Rudolph put the target on himself. Anyone with half a brain can see that he played a huge role in this incident and he's calling other players Bush league, crying victim and not being accountable for his own actions. If I'm an opposing defender I can't wait to smack rudolph around because there's nothing more bush league than his actions.

We actually may have helped the Steelers here, because after Thursday, we all know Rudolph will never be a bonafide starter in this league.

This isn't even debatable IMO.

Baker has had his troubles to be sure, but like Vick before him Lamar is a gimmick QB, he does great when he is able to sneak up on teams, but not so much once they have seen what he can and can't do.

The speed is what catches teams off guard, but once having seen and experienced it the novelty wears off and then Lamar is manageable.

With Lamar the second time around seems to end with Lmar losing.

Ummm...this is beyond false. Hilariously false.

The entire league got to see what Lamar can do last season. He’s gotten BETTER. Calling Lamar a gimmick QB proves you haven’t watched a single game this season. He didn’t even look like a gimmick QB when we beat him, and that was his worst game of the season.

How does a gimmick QB have better passing numbers than ours? Using a TRADITIONAL model to evaluate those two, Lamar is destroying baker in pretty much every category except total passing yards.

More PASSING TDs, less turnovers, better QBR, better QB rating, better completion %, and he stat that matters the most? Better W-L record.

This convo would go a lot easier on you guys if you stop lying to yourselves and making up nonsense.

True on all accounts. Still the argument can be made that Baker is the better QB but is the victim of an undisciplined offense and defense in his sophomore season. We need to see more. No doubt they are going to be a big part of the future look of QB’s in the NFL.

yep. but i will be calling out people who still have these pre-draft narratives they refuse to let go of.

we got plenty of tape, stats, W-L records, and everything else to start evaluating QB's based on what they're doing in the NFL.

its just ridiculous. Watson was leading the LEAGUE in passing TD's before he got hurt in his rookie season, and people were still peddling nonsense about him being a run first QB.

He's surpassed anything I thought he would be as a QB ... the one pre-draft narrative I stated and that I will stick with ... He's going to get nicked up. When he does and when he slows down he will be less effective. He doesn't need the brutal injury RG3 had, he just needs to get smacked around for a couple of seasons and then wear and tear will erode his running ability or his willingness to run. While he has been a better throwing QB than I imagined ... it is still predicated on his running ability. As a pocket passer I doubt he has anywhere near the same success. . . . I agree he is great at avoiding contact and the big hit ... but he's going to take a big hit at some-point. You can't run that much and not get hit in the NFL.

so which is worse? running and dictating how you get hit, or standing in the pocket and getting blasted when you dont expect it?

i get what you're saying, but it implies we dont have a clear history of statue QB's getting blasted and hurt in the pocket.

Watson got hurt his rookie season IN the pocket. Vick actually was more healthy that Wentz, Stafford, Peyton Manning, and a few others, who are considered pocket passers.

so really the only person who was considered injury prone as a dual threat was RG3.

its really hard for me to agree with that narrative when people only have 1 guy to go off of. i got a laundry list of pocket passers who get injured left and right.

and i have to say this, which i dont think one person on this board has considered:

would you rather have a QB who is absolutely dominant with 7-8 great years, maybe a title and an MVP, before he gets hurt?

or a QB who plays 20 years, but never wins a title?

obviously we dont know how it will play out, but people keep talking about "well, he will get hurt at some point".

im sure baltimore will consider lamar worth it if he brings them a title before a serious injury takes him out.

at some point, you will be right that lamar will get hurt. just like at some point, people will finally be right when Tom Brady starts declining in play due to age, even though they've been trying to call it for 3-4 years now.

You got a good point - QB's get hit all the time. One isn't worse than the other. I think some QB's are better at protecting themselves whether in the pocket or when running. But let's face it Lamar runs a LOT. As much as a running back - and how many RB's in the NFL go through a season without getting nicked up and hurt? Lamar is more explosive and elusive than nearly any other RB - but he's still going to get hit. To be honest - after what he's done I am a fan (other than he's with the Raven's) ... I hope he doesn't or I hope that when he does he surpasses my expectation of him as a 'less running' threat QB. . . . I love the fact Baker is our QB and I believe he will do great things for many years. Because he's already a Brown it's hard to say I'd rather have someone else. . . But - If there was a redraft at this point and we knew then what we know now I'd be more than happy with Lamar. But don't underestimate what Harbor has achieved in making the Offense all about Lamar. Most other HC in the NFL would not have got the max out of Lamar like Harbor has imo.

i agree, and as i said in my initial post, i'd rather have Baker than lamar based on how the team is built here in cleveland.

but it wont mean much if we dont get competent coaches around Baker.

Sorry swish I will give a statistic baker 1-0

Division titles

Lamar, soon to be 2

Baker, zero

Watching the Texan/Raven game.

Lamar amazes me. Never seen a guy so elusive in short space. He makes guys miss him when they are right on top of him.

He will throw some ducks then make a perfect throw.

Major credit to John Harbaugh and his staff for developing on offense and developing Lamar.

The Ravens are doing some incredible things on offense.

They took a chance on Lamar. They dumped Flacco. And made a full commitment to Lamar. And it is paying off big time.

There coming

When all said and done, Baker will have double the division titles as Lamar.

You missed your calling. You should be teaching creative writing.

Division titles

Harbaugh 2

Hue, Williams, Kitchens 0

Those arent QB stats they are team stats

Should I post the individual stats? It gets worse if I do that.

Cheap shot as usual.

Lamar was drafted by a stable team, not a clown show like the Browns.

Cheap shot? How’s that’s a cheap shot?

What?

Look, I'm going to be honest.

Baker is our QB, Lamar Jackson is the QB for the Baltimore Ravens. You know the history.

I don't care if you express your admiration for Lamar Jackson, but as a Browns fan I'm starting to think you should go to Baltimore and give him a big ovation in person.

And I’m going to be honest.

Put me on ignore if you have a problem with what and how I post. That goes for you or anyone else.

Nice rebuttal, class act.

I like your posts - mostly - so I'm not going to put you on ignore. At this time.
I simply don't like this love-fest for Lamar. Maybe there is a raventalkers board out there.

I don’t like the ravens, so why would I post on their board?

Please don’t talk about class when you clearly didn’t read my initial post in this thread , cause if you did, you would’ve never made up the nonsense that you posted about me.

I'll review it in the morning.

You're initial post was weeks ago, I've been respectful since.
Pardon me if a Browns fan like me gets annoyed by a Lamar-loving thread.

Goff is craptastic.

Wrong thread!

It's far classier than what I would've responded with if I were in his shoes.

My initial post was 1 week ago, on the 10th. So you’re making even more up.

Pardon me if I get annoyed with posters who act like I even made the thread to begin with.

We could rename it Baker or Lamar or Goff.

Alright my bad, I thought you started the thread. And really I wasn't trying to attack you I'm just hating on Baltimore and your Lamar fandom.
Peace.

Nobody cares.
It was between me and swish.

Since he plays for Los Angeles, is he the, Goff of Mexico?

Lol how do you consistently come up with these lines?

Just a sick and twisted brain.

This wouldn't be funny even if the state of California geographically touched any part of the 'gulf of mexico'. smh

But California does "touch" Mexico...so I deem it geographically funny.

My thought is that Greg Roman gets a HC gig and Lamar's production takes a hit next season.

Don't underestimate good coaching. Or bad coaching for that matter.


Bonus: Browns hire Roman as HC.

Why would the ravens fire Harbaugh in favor of Roman?

What are they, the browns?

Lol. Not what I said there, chief.

Yep. I apologize.

Once upon a time....

This year Lamar is winning games...sorry last year they won despite Lamar and the offense.

But its the Ravens 2 and Browns 0

Baker Career: 6119 yds passing, 38 TDs, 208 yds rushing, 2 rush TDs and has accounted for 11 Browns wins.

Lamar Career: 3459 yds passing, 25 TDs, 1476 yds rushing, 11 rush TDs and has accounted for 14 Ravens wins.


Baker went to an 0-16 team.
Lamar went to a team with 1 losing season in the past 10 years.


I think we are doing just fine with Baker.

I'm taking Baker over Lamar every time and it's not even close.

Interesting stats and perspective. And I'll continue to say I want Baker. I love what he brings to the team and what he did last year and will do again....

But - truly, forget the stats and the teams and the management and everything else. Use the eye test - Lamar is a special talent. It comes with a ton of risk - #1 injury and then reduced effectiveness as a result #2 you have to run your whole offense around Lamar's ability .... but let's not diminish or reduce how good Lamar looks and plays as of week 11 2019.

So when are we gonna see our #1 overall pick carry this team to victory?

Everyone is looking a Freddie, wilks, and slowly starting to get on Dorsey, but when will this board start really criticizing this dude?

DA caught more heat from fans, and he actually delivered us a winning season.

I’m sorry but right now it appears we made the wrong pick. That’s two 3rd string QBs that have outplayed our #1 overall pick this season.

When is he gonna deliver? All were getting us flashes from this dude, but no sustained play.

Nevernind Allen or Lamar, maybe DARNOLD would’ve been the better pick. Because darnold would take those easy dump off yards. darnold would take those easy scrambles to pick up the 1st down, or keep us ahead of the chains by running for a few yards and sliding.

I mean damn......we really convinced ourselves that a QB barely taller than Wilson WITHOUT the athletic ability, who had the same slow ass 40 time as josh Rosen, was gonna take us to glory.

And here we are in year two, with more overall talent than the ravens and bills on offense, and the guy regressed hard.

And people will blame everybody and they momma for bakers regression, but the sad reality is that BAKER is mainly responsible for his regression.

I have to wonder if baker peaked in college. It’s a legitimate question.

Put Baker behind Pitt's OL and he scores 40+ against us yesterday. Put Lamar behind our OL and he's lucky to score 13 points yesterday.

The benefits of coaching and scheming that Lamar and Baker have received are polar opposites. Baltimore took what Lamar was good at (or great at) and built upon that. He has taken to that coaching exceptionally well.

We still have star WRs who don't know where to line up and/or don't see the right route adjustments - ala yesterday's Baker-to-Jarvis pick. We don't have TE's who provide any threat or security. Our star FA pickup TE can't catch great ball(s) in the endzone that hit him in the hands - hands with an S. Our OL can't block for the scheme we are insisting upon running. We essentially did - and continue to do - the opposite of what Baltimore has done for Lamar.

Note: That is NOT me saying that Lamar hasn't been very, very good this year. This is me saying that one team is coached ridiculously better and different than the other.

Accuracy and coaching are two different things. When a QB has time to throw, those throws should be accurate. We haven't been seeing that on a consistent basis.

Baker has more commercials than Lamar has won games in the NFL.

Baker in 30 years.

j/c...

Baker or Lamar?

I'd rather have the Ravens culture over either of them. That's how bad the culture is in Berea.

Lamar just takes too many hits. He has been largely injury free, no nagging injuries much less major ones to my awareness. That just isn't reality for a running QB.

MVP probably, can he have a TON of success, I don't think that's in question anymore.

Will he make his 2nd contract? Will the Ravens pony up that dough for a QB who runs it 200+ times per season? I am very interested in see how that plays out.

If he's still healthy when his second contract comes up, they'll pay him.

I mean they paid Flacco a HUGE second contract and he was no Lamar.

Baker doesn't make winning plays. He botches gimmes like the failed TD pass to Harris. Hell, Hoyer makes that play. He doesn't win games. I'm down on him.

He's a legitimate question mark going into next season. It's no longer about him vs his draft class. This has now devolved into whether he has the goods at all.

No matter coach, no matter scheme, no matter players around you, winners win. They make winning plays. We are going into year 2 of Baker and still no playoffs.

That's pathetic. And that's sad.

WAY too many variables to compare them honestly.

I know it is cliche, but football is a team sport, and there is no ONE position that can consistently perform their job at a high level without some support from others on the team. If 1 or more of the others is not playing well, it affects the others around them.

Baltimore has had consistency in the organization and systems, yes they have tailored the offense to better use Lamar's skill set, but largely, the playbook itself has remained the same. So you don't have 11 players all trying to remember something completely new simultaneously.

It's why NE can just plug and play, because everything is the same, and the majority of the players have it on muscle memory and instinct, and that plays a large part in covering for a new guy still learning.

Lamar is the better QB.
He passes the eye test.Lamar is doing more with less around him.
Lamar to me has a better work ethic than Mayfield.
I think Baker at times focuses too much on being "Baker" rather than being a winning QB.
In terms of wins losses Lamar is better.
I think Lamar has a better grasp of his offense

I think the question has been answered some time ago, so it would be better for this thread to be closed and forgotten.

Not sure about the work ethic part. I don't think Baker worked hard this off season but my suspicion is that will get rectified this year. By all accounts he's a hard worker.

I don't know that there's much value in comparing the two. Two different situations. But I think it's clear that Baker will not succeed unless he's in the right situation. He's not going to will his team to victory or carry them on his back. He seems more in the Jarad Goff category. It is what it is. He's ours and the team has to figure out how to make it work with him.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-quarterback...2f4af-191351853

Here's a review of all NFL QB rankings. I think the review on Baker is pretty fair. I expect significant improvement year 3 regardless of who the HC and OC are. Lamar slots in at #3 - interesting stats on his throwing vs running.

Lamar is playing in a great culture.

Baker is not.

This year, lamar is easily the superior QB. I still prefer Baker.

For all those talking about the potential of Lamar getting hurt while running:

Let me remind the board that baker mayfield has been the one rolling around on the ground in pain this season multiple times. Our non athletic QB has taken more hits than the guy y’all claim runs too much.

I remember catching part of one of Jackson's press conferences some weeks back. It was an auto-play video that came up on ESPN.com or one of the football sites I read. That dude looks like a tank now, nothing like he did at Louisville. Whatever the Ravens strength & conditioning team did with him is pretty amazing.

This is something I bring up from time to time. You have to look beyond just what players you bring in, or even who's coaching them. You have to look at the big picture. Surely we'd all agree that having a team make your players some combination of bigger, faster, stronger, and more resilient to injury would be a huge advantage, right? So why don't we ever talk about it?

I think a lot of the Browns misery over the years comes back to simply not getting their players prepared properly. This means coaching (on the field stuff) and strength and support staff as well.

For example, when Garrett and Ogunjobi were posting those videos with impressive squat poundages, I couldn't help but notice that their form was simply gosh-awful, like they were completely uncoached in that regard. And why was Garrett doing box jumps with 50lb dumbbells? Do people have any idea how much stress that puts on the elbows? There are better ways to do plyometrics. Fine, Garrett could get away with it, but what about more typical players?

More thoughts along the same lines here: https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...ity#Post1702518

I don't know that another comparison could ever be more irrelevant and/or misleading than that one right there.

It’s the truth.

And absolutely relevant.

We drafted a guy half the board is either the same height or taller then, and he’s not even athletic.

Honestly i rather have back manziel. The honeymoon with baker is beyond over.

He needs to perform, because it’s looking like we drafted the wrong guy.

I think there's a huge difference between being fast and being athletic. Over and over again Baker has managed to move in the pocket and avoid sacks and tackles. He's not just some statue that amounts to a tackling dummy.

So Baker is athletic. He's just not as fast nor can he play both QB and RB.

Proclaiming that Baker is not athletic is a bit much.

It is impossible to accomplish what he has not be athletic.

Not going to get into a Baker critique but I will say IMO that he is still a top notch prospect.

Giving up on a quarterback at this stage will accomplish nothing.

All quarterbacks can look bad at times. All of them. Baker has as much potential to be good as any.

Quarterback is a position of development for a entire career.

There have been some issues that have arisen that are concerning with Baker. I don't dispute that.

However, IMO he will turn out to be a very good player.

I'm right there with you. I've been labeled a Baker hater in the past because I have never hesitated calling out his immaturity when it raises its ugly head. You don't have to create a controversy to have fire and passion.

I had no problem pointing out his struggles the first half of this season.

Yet I also have no problem giving credit where credit is due. Baker has improved over the second half of this season so far. He seems to be conducting himself pretty well with the press. Those are signs of maturity and improvement. If he stays true to that trajectory only good things will come from that.

It's not relevant. It was a dumb comment. But not as dumb as the Manziel one. You really doubled down there.

But I get your frustration because I'm there too. And I've made plenty of dumb comments about Baker over the last couple of weeks myself because I am sick and tired of losing and guys not coming through. That much we can agree on. I think Baker is a loser. Not at life, at football. He's just not a winner. 2 seasons, no playoff appearances. An absolute gift of a schedule this year. I mean the NFL was handing the playoffs to us. Two brutal losses to third string QBs where those third string QBs outplayed him. A plethora of weapons that he can't figure out how to get the ball to. Delivering exactly one game winning drive against Buffalo after he got lucky on a call reversal where he turned the ball over and Buffalo got a TD. He gets so tight when we need him the most. That's the very definition of loser in sports.

Get us a winner. Somebody please, get us a winner. Tired of this crap. Baker is going to beat up on a weakling this week and all the Baker supporters are going to come in here flapping their wings. I will stress again ... it's MEANINGLESS. MEANINGLESS. MEANINGLESS. Baker thrives on the weak and when things are MEANINGLESS.

Win some damn games. Make the playoffs. Stop sucking. Deliver in the clutch. Especially against teams you are supposed to beat.

I don't think Baker has the clutch gene. The "I will rip your heart out I want to win so bad" gene.

Nope, you better build up the team around him. We have another Jarad Goff here. Your GM and coach better be on point. Are they? Freddie looks to be a mess and Dorsey has nearly undone every good thing he had done when he took over.

What a cluster.

/emotional, dumb comments (but I stand by them)

To say he lost to 2 3rd string QBs is being being disingenuous at best. The Denver guy sat back there and had all day to throw. Our crack defensive coaching staff elected to not blitz a guy starting his first NFL game.

Similarly, Duck was facing our D in its undermanned state. We did not harass him nearly enough. Our D folded.

Baker didn't play well, and he has had bouts of loser-itis, but our D were the prime losers in those 2 games.

Baker had plenty of opportunities to deliver in both games. He didn't. You go as your QB goes.

Absolute gift of a schedule - please. Probably one of THE toughest schedule in football, but you go with that. SEA, LAR, SF, BAL (2), NE, BUF, PIT (2), TEN.

Not only that, their RB Lindsay had 9 carries for 92 yards and a TD. Their no name WR Fant had 115 yards on 3 receptions and a TD. Baker needs to play better on defense!

Right - better take a look at the fantastic D we were supposed to have. Losses to both DEN and PIT was on their D, not Baker.

People bought into a bunch of hype and are now looking for scapegoats to blame that on.

Classic overreaction to losing.

Find someone to blame and lay it all on them.

Baker has been far from perfection. He has been inconsistent. When all the factors are looked at. Understandable.

There are a lot of things at play here.

To lay this all on Baker is absurd. He does need to share some of the blame.

Calling Baker a loser. Wow.

Have at it. If that is how you feel.

He is going to be the Browns quarterback for the foreseeable future.

So was:

Couch
Holcomb
DA
Quinn
Manziel
And Kizer.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Your right..including the Coaches and Players on the Browns team..

They are the ones who should have been practicing and working their asses off to prove their worth..

But they didn't.. It isn't or ever will be the fans fault for a team to fall victim to the Hype.

Baker is a loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.

You are entitled to your opinion.

As am I and I think you are dead wrong.

You are welcome to pull out every stat you please.

My opinion is based upon what I see and what I have seen.

That is all.

I refuse to believe this. He has not been good this year, I'll give you that. But last year Baker was the best in that class and showed he has what it takes to be very good. I also don't think he's a loser because his background story just doesn't show that at all. The walk ons, his records, his rookie NFL season... None of that says loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.

I think Baker is dealing with a lot of pressure he didn't have last year. Because of all the hype.

You need pressure to make diamonds.

Give him some time.

He is playing very forced and uptight.

When he played an "Easy" team (Miami) look at how much he relaxed and was his old self. He just needs to learn to relax.

I predict he will have a good game against Cincy also, for the same reason.

This is so asinine. Believe this if Lamar was drafted by Cleveland into the same situation he would not be an mvp candidate. Coaching and the organization mean everything. Being the last top qb picked in the draft was the best thing that ever happened to him.

2 years ago we finished the season 0-16. The year before that we won 1 game. Baker becomes our quarterback and we were in playoff contention last December and this December and you think he's the one holding us back?

I'm a Texas fan but I have to say Id rather have Baker cause Lamar wont keep healthy with his playing style.

I agree with your sentiments - though this year I think it'd be fairer to say we were mathematically in the play off hunt, I never felt we were contenders after the loss to Denver. The early season losses in games we could have won, Baker played badly and was 100% part of the issue, but there were many many other issues going on, the biggest of which was pee poor coaching, play calling and game management against Seattle and the Rams.

This.

Baker gets off to a rough start next year or gets hurt early and you still don't have the answer to the question whether he's the guy or not and all bets are off. And a new coach will always want his guy as well.

Last year he was playing with house money, no pressure, and beating up on the dregs of the league. Anytime he faced anyone decent, he played poorly and the Browns lost. He had a chance to deliver against Balt and threw a pick on his attempt at a game winning drive. He missed a wide open out route to Landry for a first on that same drive. A simple throw that any QB should make especially one known for accuracy. But he got tight on that drive. It was a microcosm of what was to come this season.

There are numerous examples this year. We all know them. But pressure, expectations, and playing multiple good teams resulted in a 2-6 start. No more house money. No more it's just his rookie year.

2 seasons, no playoff appearances.

Winners win. Losers don't.

With the exception of OBJ, who certainly looked disengaged early on, what proof do you have, other than your emotional response, that players weren't working their asses off?

And secondly, then whose fault is it fans bought into the hype? Some of us were telling people we had a first time HC. And not just a first time NFL HC, but a man who had never been a HC at any level. Some of us explained that we had pretty much an entire new coaching staff. An entire new D, and entire new O.

That all of this would take time to gel. That we may very well start off poorly. Both sides of the possible scenario were plainly pointed out. So why is it someone elses fault when certain fans ignored one side and believed the other side?

Over simplification - knee jerk - agenda driven reaction imo. Pretty simple.

I'm not surprised you feel that way.

Message to Baker and the Browns...start winning.

I'll also ask...what is my agenda?

Well they say a cyclops only has one eye and can only focus on one thing. We can start there. Expand your horizons.

Rishuz has his opinion. Clearly based upon Baker versus teams not Browns versus teams.

The only opinion that matters is his coaches and teammates. People who have gotten to this point with Baker on a daily basis. People who practice with him and attend meetings with him. People who are witness to what he can do.

Listen to Monken. He has no doubt about Baker. He is not the type guy who flatters for effect. And Rishuz knows? What he really knows is based upon limited information. That is not a dig on him. We all are limited in what we know.

My issue is proclaiming Baker a loser.

He is in second year. Playing with a new head coach and OC in their first year.

Some perspective is needed. Look at the careers of many great quarterbacks. Many started out poorly. Some sat for three years before they even played.

So calling Baker a loser when he has not even played two full seasons? Lack of perspective.

In addition you don't get to where he has if you were a loser.

You don't win the Heisman. You don't win the games he won. You don't have the numbers he has produced. And you certainly don't have the reputation Baker has a leader and teammate.

So Rishuz is welcome to believe what he wants.

It just really has no meaning.

I think this is one of the fairest "harsh criticisms" you'll hear. I totally agree that this off-season will be make or break for a few people.

Baker has been playing better, so we know he's able to improve. He's all but cured the "roll right every play" issue, and his ugly turnover tendency has gone way down. That's great, but if he comes out next season stinking it up again.... we can't have him constantly working his way out of regressions.

Freddie has to run an effective off-season. He has to show he can actually learn from his mistakes, and promote a focused environment for the team. I also think an off-season would do wonders for his scheme and play sheet.

Dorsey has a couple areas he needs to a address hard (OT, TE) and a couple that need some help (FS, FB, LB).

I have confidence Dorsey can get it done. I'm hopeful for Baker, but I have doubts with Freddie admitting fault and fixing his issues.

You simply can't proceed with Freddie if you're committing to Baker.

Baker is not a loser, he is just not a winner too...

And I was under the impression one of the major reasons why we drafted him was because he was a winner...

That and his accuracy,so when he shows neither, where do we stand?

Can someone explain to me the whole Baker is not a winner thing?

Baker WON a state championship with his high school team.

Baker went out and WON the starting job in college as a walk on.

Baker WON the Heisman as the only walk-on to ever do so.

Baker WON 34 games as the quarterback at Oklahoma in 3 seasons. Coupled with only 6 losses.

He's WON a college bowl game against a tough SEC defensive team.

He led his team to the college football playoffs and his offense scored more points (48) than the team gave up in any game the last decade. Granted he didn't win the national championship, but where is Lamar's national championship ring? Or Josh Allen's? Or Sam Darnold's?

Baker went out and became the #1 pick in the NFL draft.

Baker's WON 13 games for the Browns in the past 2 seasons when the Browns have only won 11 games the 4 previous seasons.

Where exactly am I missing Baker is "not a winner?"


This is why we can't have nice things. We get good talented players and the fans try to run them out of town.

I think you answered it yourself, he won a state championship with his high school.

Baker's record in college is similar to other Qb's in Oklahoma.

So far we have seen that Baker is good playing against bad teams and bad playing against good teams. He also plays well when the team is playing well, and plays bad when bad when the team is struggling.

He had enough chances to win some games and he simply not only couldn't but ended up making mistakes, so all in all not a winner in my book.

He is also far from being our best O player and honestly I think he will struggle accepting the fact that he is not the star here.

Huh?

Leading the browns to back to back 7 win seasons (most likely) is unprecedented. Its happened once since '99.

There aren't many quarterbacks in the league who could do that for this franchise.

We aren't being held back Baker, if anything we are holding him back.

No one's trying to run Baker out of town. I actually think that would be stupid. He's the best we've had since the return although that bar is low.

I think what's happening is the realization that Baker can't put a team on his back. That's ok for Andy Dalton types drafted in the 2nd round. It's a letdown with the number one overall pick. Baker missed a ton of reads and throws yesterday. I've heard from people who were at the game that OBJ was running open all day and Baker didn't/couldn't/wouldn't throw him the ball. He's about to wrap up his second season. We still don't know if he's a complete QB. He's the last rated QB in the NFL.

I keep saying he's a loser. That's my way of saying he's not going to carry the team to victory. Doesn't mean he cant play well when the surroundings are ideal. Unfortunately I find that disappointing but it's not the end of the world. Plenty of teams can win with guys like that.

But when I'm watching and we need a game winning drive to win, I have no confidence Baker will get it done.

We never had such easy seasons before, he's good against bad teams.

Baker is holding us back, we have probably one of the best running backs and receivers group in the league.

9 of our 13 games thus far have been against top 11 scoring defenses.

The other 2 were against (scoring defenses) 18th ranked Jets, 22nd Seattle, the 23rd ranked Bengals, and last place Dolphins.

You may not be, but some would love nothing more than for Baker to go.

And I don't agree. I think he's 100% capable of putting the team on his back and winning games. I would day he actually did it in his first ever game in the NFL.

I have complete confidence that Baker can win games. I'm not going to overreact after one season.

It's too early to make any final determination on Baker. From either direction.

I think we have enough to have a good idea. Baker is by all means not a bad QB, but he is also not elite.

Only question I have is if he can cope not being the star of the team.

Agree with the first statement.

The answer to the second one is he can. He's already doing it.

And I will put this as a notch in his good column...the guy can throw 4 picks and if the team wins he seems genuinely happy. He's not a stat chaser or looking for the spotlight. It's all organic with Baker. I think he wants to win above all else.

I am a baker fan. I will say this at first.

But I have concerns, and winning games is one of them. Baker has lost more games on final drives than he has won. He has ended a few on INT (Pittsburgh and Balt last year come to mind right away).

He had other games basically end on INT on key drives like Tenn - we were still in the game in the 3rd Q, he threw a pick and then they just took off on us.

Baker so far, acts like he has that Killer Instinct that Tom, Ben, Manning, etc have - but he has not really played like it yet mins really the Jets game.

Does anyone have any insight into how serious Lamar's leg injury is?

Kind of a "mystery metric" for Baker. Purely me.

His interviews are ahead of his win production. Seen lots of commercials, read and seen interviews and stories, some of which he could just avoid. Plenty of talking, some distracting and media-driven.

Do more talking on the field. Then have your sideshows. It is a fine line, I understand. Unless it isn't.

I don't mind the commercials... capitalize on your fame.... but dude needs to learn how to do a pressed... talk too much

Dawg, I was raised "Old School."

We lived in a smallish town (60K folks at is largest), and My Pops was a true public figure during most of my 'Wonder Years.' Every time I'd leave the house, Momz would call out from the living room:

"HEY!!! -remember your last name while you're out there!"

When you're 16, and just want to go to the Fri night football game with your budz, it's a #painintheazz. When you're 22, and being interviewed on the local news as a representative of the leading local Arts Institution, that mindset comes in handy.

There is a reason why so many interviewees sound a bit 'canned'... they understand that more is at stake than just their personal profile when they speak in public as members/representatives of a group.

My training as Momz and Pops' kid when I was 13-18 prepared me for being in front of groups/cameras. I was OK being interviewed at WLIO, I was OK speaking in public before a crowd of 500+ at a fund raiser for my current job, and I was OK being interviewed backstage at Carnegie Hall on a national NPR/international internet simulcast when I was 55 years old.

Class, polish, and a sense of propriety are never out-of-fashion. I've been publicly questioned dozens of times, and have always managed to be myself, exercise candor, and never bring controversy to My Fam or my craft/profession.

Draw a line that sets your limits.
Walk right up to that line.
NEVER CROSS THAT LINE.

You can be a public figure without being a source of public controversy.
It takes a bit of personal discipline and cognitive rigor in the moment, but it can be done. I was 4 years out of HS, and managed to pull it off

Up to this point, Baker has cut himself from a different bolt of cloth than what wove me into the family tapestry. He's gotta find his own way in all this.

But speaking from experience: he could have learned a few things from growing up in Lima- next door to RLC One, and Juanita Clemens.


.02,
RLC Two.

Dang Clem, my daddy grew up in Cridersville. "Hamburg, pickle on top, makes your heart go flippity-flop."

Not to negate the pertinent points you made throughout the body of your post. I feel like Baker can't decide when to be brutally honest or politically correct. As a fan, I want to hear him dish, but from an organizational perspective he might need a shock collar.

Yeah, Dawg....
Y'all know what's what, yo-

-I worked at Kewpee West (Allentown Rd, across from KMart) for 2 years. I prob served Your Pops back in the day-

Heck yes, Clem. It's been a long time, but I remember two Kewpee's. One was big and one was little. Like so little you could barely park. I could swear my pops telling me they had a rotating thing in the parking lot so you could drive directly into your spot. Of course this is the same man who always says, "Oh you like that, I made it myself." Whenever anyone compliments anything in his home. Did Dave Thomas really base Wendy's off of Kewpee? I could actually believe that one.

the Browns need to either:

1. go after Teddy Bridgewater hard in FA
2. Trade some picks to get into the Top 3 of the NFL draft

If the Browns can do either 1 or 2, you trade Baker Mayfield away while he still has value. He is the Trent Richardson of QB's. He had a great rookie year (So did Richardson) but he isn't a very good player.

Some other team will give us a 1st or a 2nd and a player for Mayfield as they believe foolishly they can fix him, in fact Gruden out in Oakland would be the perfect trade partner.

We need to move on from Mayfield, it was a mistake. it was a big risk drafting him, it didn't work out.

Look Mayfield threw below 50% completion and a QBR of 38.9 and 2 INT against one of the WORST defenses in the NFL with the Bengals ranked at 31. Your not a even an average QB if your posting those kinda numbers against garbage teams like the Bengals.

Look the NFL hasn't figured it out yet, we can snooker someone like Banner snokered the Colts with Riachardson. Im telling Oakland and Gruden is the perfect fit, we get a decent draft pick, and they get a fools gold QB with Mayfield, its a win-win

We need to move on, if we can get Bridgewater, we can take a flier on a QB in the 2nd or 3rd rd and develop the guy for a few years with little fan fare, Bridgewater is still young at 27 years old, he has quite a few years left. This makes sense, if the Browns stick with Mayfield he will be a backup or out of the league in two years and we won't get anything for him...you don't post crappy 38 ratings against terrible D like the Bengals if your a viable starter in this league. Its time to move on.

Lol Yea.. Lets dump Baker now BEFORE he gets past his 2nd year and start over.. Dump Freddie too just in case Bakers problems are on the head coach and play calling. Dorsey made mistakes by Drafting Baker and picking Kitchens so we should show him the door too and start over..

Give me a friggen break..

His post was liked by Clown Hunter....

No, just no.

I had to check who liked your post and of course it is "Clown Hunter". smh.

Baker came into a bad situation. The team was 1-31 the two season before his arrival and he was saddled with the worst coach of all time for the first half of his rookie season. Throw in coaching changes (twice) and we're now essentially on his third coaching staff in his second season.

Add in some of the other drama (including at the WR position) and he has performed well enough. There may be a time to reevaluate and get someone else in here but that time is not now, and it won't be this off-season either.

Get some more O-line talent (especially at tackle), prioritize timing, reliability and team-first mentality at wide receiver, tweak the coaching staff as needed and let's let this thing develop.

Sometimes Brown fans amazine me. Bakerhas shown he can do the job. He just needs to stop trying to force the ball to Odell and maybe some good coaching.

I thought we were getting Tom Brady?

Yep. Your dad was not lying. The QP downtown was so small only 50 people could eat in the dining room. There was one way in and one way out off of North McDonald Street, and there was a big turntable in the back of the parking area. Your car would spin around and go back out the way you came in.

Rumor has it that Dave Thomas was a manager at the the small Kewpee for a year or two before he moved to Columbus and started up Wendy's. same format same fresh beef everyday same fries same malts (they call him frosties). No guess as to how true that rumor is but it has persisted for decades. Dang man now I want a Kewpee! (btw- Kewpee isn't just the males doll lover the entrance... it also is "QP: quarter pound of need in each Patty)

The Tom Brady thread is more toungue in cheek, not gonna happen, but I’ll own it. I’m good for that.

I really think folks loyalty to Mayfield is a mistake a big one. Im 99% certain he isn’t the guy. He doesn’t pass the look test. He isn’t an NFL starting QB. I didn’t think he was an NFL QB last year either. I was not fooled. Most of his passes last year was quick one read throws against man coverage. Last year the Raiders and Chargers played Zone and Mayfield had awful games. He has also had awful games this year against zone where that first read isn’t open right away. Most D Coordinators will play man coverage and blitz rookie QB early on when there is lack of film. Once they had the offseason to watch Mayfield struggles against zone coverage against the Rams and Chargers they adjusted and Mayfield has yet to prove he can adapt and learn to read it.

The book is out on Mayfield, you play zone coverage with delayed Blitzes and the kid folds like an accordion. The 49ers played the Chargers game plan to a tee against Mayfield this season and he posted a wonderful 13 QBR.

He is another Scott Mitchell, Don Majkowsi, Derek Anderson we need to trade him while he still has value. He isn’t the answer here no matter how much people want him to be. He is backup quality QB in this league. Jackson and Allen are so far ahead of him, Allen can actually read zone coverage and so can Jackson. Manning was able to read zone year two, so was Rothlisberger, Mayfield is lost, pats the ball and either throws an int or is sacked.

I honestly think Mayfield would have worked out if we would have stuck with plan of sitting him last year. Winning those couple of games wasn’t worth rushing Mayfield who wasn’t ready, we had career 90s rated passer and two time Pro Bower in Taylor who was willing to help
Mayfield in that first year. To prepared him to be an NFL QB, we rushed the process. We should have gave Mayfield a taste against the Jets then went ack to Taylor, just small doses the first year

Our QB picks fail because we can never stick to a plan and develop anyone.

A company doesnt fire the retiring CTO during the 6 month period he is training the replacement. Time is given to help the person learn, learn the ropes, how things work, etc.

Taylor outplayed Mayfield in camp last year by a mile and it wasn’t even close. There was no competition not because Jackson said so, it was because Taylor was so far ahead of him and so much better it wasn’t even close. This was one thing Haley and Jackson.actually agreed on. Haley coached both Rothlisberger and Kurt Warner at high levels I’ll take his opinion over any media pundits.

We rushed Mayfield too soon without making him earn the job. He never beat out Taylor so how could he be ready to play when Taylor was an average QB at best. The early success last year was the worse thing that could have happened to Mayfield and the Browns.

We kneejerked. Taylor would have won 7 games too we should have stayed the course last year sat Mayfield for a year like the Bengals sat Carson Palmer behind god awful Jon Kitna, and how the Chargers sat Rivers. QB must be brought along slowly, even Brady sat year one.

Manning and Rothlisberger are EXCEPTIONS for early sustained success not the norm. Rothlisberger has Betttis, and a great D his first few years. Mayfield may not have liked sitting year one, but we screwed him out of valuable learning that would have increased his chances of success immensely.

Now we have a kid frustrated as all can be, can’t handle how D have adjusted, all the drama, no real vet to lean on. Taylor has a Super Bowl ring.

We done the same thing with Mayfield we done with Couch. The Browns just never learn. Sometimes ya gotta bide you’re time and get kicked in the face before you wait for the right moment to strike with a one hit KO. All we had to do was let Taylor play out last year and were not in this mess right now. Such a simple thing and the Browns just can’t do it. Can’t develop anyone.

Lamar Jackson now has 3 games this season with 5 TDs passing.

He now has 33 TDs, 6 INT, 1100 yards rushing, 7 TDs rushing.

The true definition of a dual threat.

Lamrar + OC + (Ingram) >>>>

And we beat them.

This is what happens when you have good coaching (Lamar).

Yup. He's a very unique player and very difficult to defend. The Ravens have also built a nice offense that utilizes his skill set. It kind of makes you think back to all the people who said spread/college offenses with mobile QBs would never work in the NFL... ya, right.

Anyway, I'm kind of surprised nobody has tried what the Chargers did to beat the Ravens last year in the playoffs. Use 7 DBs on the field. Have speed everywhere to counter Jackson and those fast receivers.

I don't believe any team has tried that this season for any significant length of time. Maybe even go to base dime (6 DBs) as a compromise.

edit: There's a good chance the Ravens and Patriots will see each other again in the playoffs. The Ravens already destroyed the Patriots so I'm curious to see how the Hoodie responds from an Xs and Os perspective.

The problem is that what the Ravens are doing on offense isn't a gimmick. Read-option runs and RPOs are very efficient plays, moving him around opens up throwing lanes all over the field, etc. As Pete Carroll said, it's a nightmare to defend. Take away one thing and another opens up.

We didn't use 7 DBs, I don't think. But we used more than most and that's partly how we beat them the first time.

We blitz quite a bit based on the rest of the NFL. I'd be curious to see how much we blitzed in the first meeting. And to see how well Lamar does vs the blitz. I'd imagine he's pretty good.

If I recall we did well against him for most the game.

Another idea. So normally, comments left on an online article leave something to be desired (putting it mildly...), but this is actually a pretty good idea: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...nyone/#comments



Just have the edge defender hit Lamar on any shotgun run. NFL rules are actually quite lenient on this. As long as there is some reasonable confusion, as there will be when a zone-read using team runs the ball from shotgun, the QB is fair game. The Ravens used to abuse this fact constantly when these schemes started appearing regularly in the NFL 6-7 years ago.

"When you run the read-option, you have to know the rules" - Terrell Suggs, in a post-game interview where he hit Sam Bradford on an obvious handoff to the running back. Chip Kelly was the head coach of the Eagles at the time and he was famous for building his offense around the zone-read, even though he didn't use it with non-mobile QBs like Bradford.

The issue is that he’s putting edge rushers on ice skates.

You HAVE to blitz Lamar with a DB, because the lineman and LBs don’t have a chance.

He struggles with DB blitzes off the edge. That’s one key. The other key is you have to cover his TEs Andrews, Boyle, and hurts. Snead and brown are good receivers, but he doesn’t throw to them often. That create problems though because DBs all year have struggled to cover the TEs.

But what do you do when they just decide to run the rock? This is the issue. They average 200 yards rushing a game on the ground this season. Ingram and Edwards are a great combo, and their o line is one of the top units in the game.

That’s the problem with what we’re trying to figure out: yea, some teams found a way to slow Lamar down, but when one side of the ball is just flat out more talented than the defense, whatever the defense schemes up still doesn’t matter.

If defenses don’t have the appropriate speed to keep up.....well, speed kills.

I guess that's one area I can give Dorsey credit. His defense was built with speed, which seems to be his plan. This is another reason we beat them the first time.

Losing Garrett doesn't help, but we can still beat them.

Look you 4-1 with hunt in the line up.
You beat Pittsburgh and Baltimore
Let’s cut him

I have never seen more stupid comments on a thread than this one.
And I wonder why I stay away so much.
Jeeeshhh. Maybe I'm the stupid one for continuing to read this junk.

You obviously have not read the Gameday threads for the past 4 or 5 weeks then .......

It's driven good football posters away. Can't say I blame them. If I weren't so stubborn I would have left the asylum to the inmates some time ago.

This right here. This is why coaching comes into the equation when you're talking about Lamar's success. Not to take away from what he's doing, and how he's already proving the doubters wrong, but a defense can scheme all week about how they're going to shut down/limit Lamar, and then they can just turn around and run the ball up and down the field.

Honestly, this is what OUR offense was supposed to be like. That game of, "well, you can try to take away what we do best, but then we'll just burn you the other way... sucks to be you". I don't want to compare to what our gameplan is because it's just a rehash of the rants we've been having throughout this season, and I don't want to get away from the Lamar discussion.

For me, saying Lamar's success is somewhat because of where he is and who he's with is not at all meant to diminish his individual talent/development/contribution. It's just a further credit to how that offense operates.

Which good posters have been driven away?

It's happened over a very long period of time. Sometimes it's simply a matter of personality clashes. And whether one would consider them "good posters" or not is a matter of opinion. Them knowing their football isn't. We all lose when someone who knows the game really well leaves.

Or maybe for contributing to the stupidness. . . . .

I think it's one of those things where there's a lot of credit to go around. Lamar is a tremendous player and a very unique one in this league. I'm not sure there's ever been a player who's been able to have the success on the ground and through the air like he has. Like Swish said, a true dual-threat.

I also think there are a lot of other good players there, and Roman, Harbaugh, and the rest of the coaching staff have done a great job building that offense to suit their players' skills. I wish that was somewhere other than Baltimore, but what can you do.

There were good posters here? When was this?

Every game I see I'm more convinced that Baker will be a good backup, if he can..

Lamar we still have to see.

Ugh.

That's not good.

If we get a real coaches and we can get everyone on offense on the same page with at least a serviceable offensive line, you know kinda like last year, and if Baker is still underperforming I'll finally give you huge amounts of credit. But trolling like you are now won't help your cause.

Our OL is more than serviceable, its good in the running game and average in pass protection, what they can't do is throw the ball.

Baker has probably the best WR and RB's group in the league and he can't do it,its not trolling its not making excuses for poor performance.

I also don't think Baker is bad, thought he was good not elite, but with each game that he plays, I just think he's an average QB. Worst QB in the division, with Big Ben healthy.

With the system we were running last year Baker was darn good. If we were running a system that fit him I'm sure he could do it again. He has a good enough skill set with a proper supporting cast to win in this league. JMO

The problem is if he regressed from last year, you have to figure out why. And how to fix it.

There's no doubt in my mind that if we flip flop Lamar and Baker that we'd still be 6-8 or worse while Baltimore would have the best record in the league.

Coaching matters. While I have hope Kitchens can be better my patience is wearing thin.

While some of us are considering a new head coach, we have to wonder where exactly is the problem?

Accuracy matters too. Did you miss how many int's he's thrown from a clean pocket?

Are you aware of how many INTs have bounced off of his receivers' hands, chest or helmet? It is a ridiculous number. I recollect that being 8 of 12 at one point.

Did you miss the INT that Njoku got completely punked on last week? That was after the 8 of 12.

Did you see the route Landry ran yesterday to the sideline where he never cut hard to the sideline and the ball was nearly picked off...yet thrown exactly to where Landry was supposed to be? If that would have been picked, not many would have noticed that.

This entire team - other than K & P - has woefully under performed.

Most of his interceptions aren't due to inaccuracy.

What I haven't missed is his overall lack of accuracy that I keep seeing excuses made for.

I can't help but when I read these gripes about Baker, who is at the very minimum a viable young QB. I think two years in and many either miss this or forget this:

My point isn't to dismiss or give up on Baker. He has shown he has talent that could be molded into something special given time and the right coaching. There's no way of saying that will happen but that potential exists.

My point is it's about time people are honest as to where he is right now.

He hasn't been very good, but I'm still hopeful because he's improved as the season has gone on. Part of that is adapting our offense, somewhat, but it's also him. He still has A LOT of work to do this off-season. He can't come into next season with a similar regression.

just going to leave this tidbit.

First 27 career games...

Jameis Winston: 44 TDs, 26 INTs
Baker Mayfield: 42 TD, 30 INTs

INTs are not a good measure when you have WRs letting balls bounce off their hands or coaching putting you in situations where you must pass 40-50 times per game.

they are when its your QB throwing behind them, over them, 100mph on 5 yard drag routes

2/2 INTs from the Cinci game were 100% on the receivers. Mayfield has been inaccurate, but damn I'm scratching my head with some of these catch attempts.

The thing for the Browns to do is pretty much pursue Teddy Bridgewater as much as possible and IF the keyword is IF we can get Bridgewater to sign, we trade Mayfield and move on because he isn't very good.

If we can't get Bridgewater, than we are probably stuck with Might Mouse for another year...it is what it is...


If i could get Bridgewater, i'd move Mayfield faster than he can line up another commercial with progressive.

Couldn't agree more. Coming here, reading nonsense like we need to go all in for Bridgewater or we need to go after Tom Brady and we need to move on from Baker is just asinine. He's our quarterback now and for the future.

Baker hasn't just been bad. He's very, very bad. I'm reading there are rumblings inside the building in Berea, non-players, that are concerned. This is more than coaching.

Does he have the aptitude and the desire to improve? I just wrote in another post that he's been emasculated this year. Probably the first time in his life. Can he come back from that after being the alpha male his entire life?

He seems shell shocked. He's playing worse than every other QB in the league.

We will go into the off season with a huge question mark at QB.

jc

well, atleast baker doesnt lead the league in picks anymore. he's just 3rd in the nfl now, below Winston and Rivers

atleast winston has 30 TD's.

damn, daniel freaking jones has 1 more TD pass over mayfield.

I'm sorry. Baker has been a terrific quarterback and awesome competitor his entire life. There's no way you can convince me this season is his benchmark and that he's lost his aptitude and desire to be the greatest.

I'm really not sure where this line of thinking comes from.

Plenty of quarterbacks - hell, any position- Have been winners all their lives until they get into the nfl.

The line of thinking comes from the fact that our #1 overall pick hasn’t played like one. He’s gonna get his entire rookie contract to show us he’s worthy of being a franchise, but right now, it ain’t looking too good.

Now people will make all the excuses in the world, from coaching, to the o line, to the schedule and all of those things.

But at some point, our #1 overall has to perform. At some point, the guy has to show to elevate his teammates around him. And with a stacked roster full of playmakers on offense, we haven’t seen that. He’s flashed that ability maybe twice this season, but one can make a solid argument that maybe it was less of a flash and more of a fluke.

Last year, baker was playing with house money. This year, he is playing with expectations. And he year after that? Expectations. And after that? And after that? Same thing.

And the one thing I haven’t seen much of anybody address: if everything has to be perfect around baker for him to succeed, then that means our #1 overall pick is a glorified case Keenum.

Because Freddie, with all of his faults, isn’t the reason why baker keeps throwing behind his receivers Freddie isn’t the reason why baker keeps throwing high and wide. Freddie isn’t the reason baker keeps bailing out of pockets, and rolling to his right throwing fade away passes like he’s james harden.

Is it Freddie’s fault for allowing bakers mechanics to be trash this entire season? Maybe, but that’s ALSO on baker for allowing HIMSELF to get sloppy on mechanics. At some point, a franchise QB has got to show the ability to put his team on his back and go get a victory, despite poor performances from his teammates.

If everything has to Be perfect for our #1 overall pick to go out there and win a game, especially against piss poor teams.......I’m not liking the future all that much. When you draft a guy that high, he’s suppose to be borderline transcendent, at the very minimum elite.

And there’s nothing elite right now about baker other than his mouth. Not his mechanics, his W-L record, his arm, his athleticism. I mean we drafted a guy barely 6 foot with no elite athletic abilities. I’ve been on record before saying baker is gonna win us titles, but from what I’ve seen so far....meh.

whens the last time Baker has even been in the vicinity of a receiver down the field deep. He just doesn't have the deep ball any more and he's seeing alot more zone this year

People just want to knee-jerk and overreact. There's no patience at all.

#microwavesociety #verucasalt

/endthread

Colin Cowherd agrees with you!!

Man he had it out for baker day 1.

I know we got the hype this season from the national media, but more often than not, they tend to be correct about the browns.

Not having a winning record for an entire decade proves that.

I'll just leave this here.

First 28 starts:

Drew Brees: 10-17, 59.4%, 5613 yds, 29 TDs, 31 INTs, 73.7 passer rating

Baker Mayfield: 12-15, 62.0%, 7081 yds, 44 TDs, 31 INTs, 86.3 passer rating

And mind you Brees regressed his second season after going 8-8 his first season as starter. And Brees even sat a year.


Now /endthread

Baker does not have Bree's arm, nor him mental speed. The only thing they have in common is that they are both short

and getting paid millions more than you.

What? You realize the comparison is 24 yr old Brees to 24 yr old Mayfield?

You would be wrong on both accounts.

Its true, and I have no problems with it.

Mayfield is a backup at the NFL level.

The Browns would be wise to pursue Teddy Bridgewater or Kirk Cousins if he becomes available. Cousins a high 90's rated passer for his career, and Bridgewater a low 90's rated career passer.

I don't think Mayfield could beat out either of these guys in camp, but we def need to be exploring our options at QB.

HAHAHAHA

You want Cousins!?

Who wouldn't want a $30 million per year QB with a Jekyll & Hyde skillset???

It's anyone but Mayfield for some. We finally get a franchise QB and there are some Browns fans who want to get rid of him.... assuming they're actually Browns fans.

i remember this exact line from people when Quinn, manziel, and Weeden were our QB's.

Most fans want him to talk less, play better, win games, get some signature wins, work hard, be a leader, lead the team to the playoffs.

2 years in and there are questions whether he can be that guy that does any of those things. Meanwhile his peers are doing all of those things.

I appreciate your unwavering support and believe it is admirable. You have a conviction about him that is unmatched. For all our sakes, I hope you're right.

You're right. It would be quite fitting for the Browns and their fans if we get rid of Mayfield and he goes on to some other team and has a hall of fame career.

I've been somewhat critical of Mayfield, but drawing parallels between Mayfield and those is silly.

I don’t see franchise qb when looking at baker. But I rather he get a competent coach first to make a better case. Was last year a fluke and he’s not that good or was the offensive coaching that much better last year. I kinda believe the latter. Zampese and Saunders are highly valued whereas kitchens isn’t anyone and never has been. It’s not like he stormed up the ranks for his amazing coaching prowess and ingenuity

I can only imagine the chaos on this board if we let Mayfield go (is this even a serious possibility at this point in time??) and he ends up in New England and Josh McDaniels or Stephen Belichick go on for another 15 years of dominance with Mayfield as their QB.

Something like that would never happen to the Browns.

and when has that happened to ANY QB we ever drafted?

name one since 99. we're all waiting.

there's like ONE dude talking about cutting the guy and getting...lol, bridgewater. i aint on that bandwagon. other than him, very few posters - if any - are calling for him to be traded/cut. i straight up said he needs a new coach and will get his rookie contract to prove to us he is a franchise.

but he ISNT a franchise QB yet. and he hasnt played like one.

Big Ben was handled with kid gloves when he came into the league. They ran the ball behind their super Oline and played amazing defense.

They carried him before he carried them.

the parrellels come from POSTERS saying



nobody is comparing baker to those QB's. just the notion that baker is automatically our franchise and future just because he got drafted in the first round.

Most fans want to win. They don't care who the players are. If we went on to win the super bowl next year, no one would care what Mayfield says.

It's the notion that after 29 games people have decided he's not the guy is what's ludicrous.

Don't twist my words.

make sure you take your own advice.

so anyways, i do want to say this about Baker, when it comes to comparison to lamar.

WHERE THE HELL IS BAKERS TE'S AT?

i like RSJ and Harris, but man we should've kept fells on the roster. plus, why didnt njoku dress last game?

Njoku has been disappointing to say the least. but to be fair to him, he was only out due to baker throwing a medicine ball.

but the position HAS to get addressed nest season. i think our 2nd round pick needs to go toward the best TE on the board. if we bring back njoku, fine. but we need another guy. cause baker has no security blanket other than jarvis.

Superbowl MVP's are benched in other teams without such drama's...

It kinda sounded like you were... or I misread. That happens, too.

Baker has every bit the arm Brees has and then some. Please stop making things up.

Baker has a great arm .... however his accuracy was off at times this year.

Sophomore slump and still had more TD's than INT's I will stick with Baker he will be fine

Is that the standard? He’s got literally 1 more TD than picks. A poor mans jameis Winston. Atleast Winston threw for 5000 yards.

No I didn't say that all I said for a guy having a "sophomore slump" it could have been a lot worse ...

Baker took a step back In 2019.
He felt he could arrive in 2019 without working hard and just move the chains at will.
As he told Mary Kay before the Steelers game
" I thought it would be easy "
All great QBS have a endless work ethic
Baker comes off as a know it all I know what
I'm doing kind of person
Well he needs to be reminded this isnt Oklahoma
Anymore
He doesn't have Lincoln Riley or Freddie Kitchens
Babying or catering to him now
Baker is the worst QB In the North now

Baker will be much improved in 2020.

Hardly... He only got back on track to not break the NFL record in INT's because the game plans were dialed back and he started to dink donk and play not to look like a fool.

From the last games I would say that the improvement was marginal from the start of the year... It would be very hard to do worst, he was almost at Kizer level...

don't consider myself a great football guy. but some of the young ppl on here make me just come by once in a wile.

where you trying to type this a really long haiku?

This is still my answer to this question.

Indeed Baker took a step back as a QB, but so did the WHOLE team for the exception of Chubb. The scheme didn't match the players on the field and discipline was the worst I ever saw. And don't get me started on play calling and game management either. For some posters on here they don't see a franchise QB in Baker, to me , he will be just fine,but to each their own opinion. That being said , it impossible to be a Franchise QB if you don't have a Franchise coach. Baker has played what 32 games give or take and is now looking at having his 4th head coach next year?! Name a Franchise QB that had to live with that to start their careers and was good. We will be lucky not to ruin this kid , like all other players we drafted.

Well said.

Kinda funny when Kitchens took over as Mayfields
3rd HC earlier this year nobody was melting
Down and saying " OMG Baker is on his 3rd HC oh poor baby"

Baker regressed cause his approach to the game
Became lazy and void of work ethic.
Baker didn't bother to work on his footwork...throwing motion...studying film on the
Defenses he had to face in 2019.

Baker.isn't a franchise QB. he's a potential franchise bust. How many playoff teams could he
Start for now?

1st pick of the draft. 32nd ranked QB.
No one to blame but himself

1st off where is this 32nd ranking coming from, please share. The NFL site has him rated as 22 but I can't share as I don't know how to. How do you know about his work ethic? PLEASE SHARE NOT OPINION! All things I seen said that he spent time with his receivers in Cali. In off season. Before you bring up the commercials, everybody has a RIGHT to make money out side of football. NFL stands for not for long. Funny that the whole team regressed during the whole season not just Baker. Again you are welcome to your opinion but without a FRANCHISE COACH WILL NOT HAVE A FRANCHISE QB! The coaching is responsible, again, name just 1 franchise QB that had to put up with this crap or dysfunctional season year end and year out!

As for the " poor baby" quote, we as fans are the ones suffering so stop the nonsense.

Also to answer your question about what playoff team he would start for, I can name at least 2. Minnesota and Buffalo to start out with. Yes I said it and mean every WORD! If you don't agree that's fine but their fans hate their qb's too!

How could Buffalo Bills fans hate Josh Allen?
He got the Bills in the playoffs in only his 2nd year. Allen simply did things that Mayfield didn't do in 2019.
Kirk Cousins....really now.
I understand Fandom for Baker Mayfield. He played
Against some bad defenses in 2018 and made plays
But once the league got enough film on him
Baker got.exposed.
The truth is he'a a 5'11 QB who thinks he has the
NFL figured out.
He showed no growth as a NFL QB. Watch the film.
In fact watch game 1 vs the Titans then game 16 vs the Bengals

When Mahomes was in the draft I wanted to take a shot with him.

However, it was clear he had to be developed. He went to the the right team in order for him to reach his potential.

Andy Reid knows quarterbacks and runs a great offense. He sat Mahomes for a year. Let him watch from the bench. Let him learn the offense and how to be a professional.

Aaron Rodgers sat in GB. He played for McCarthy. He had a chance to develop with a good team. Learn the same offense over a period of years.

We draft Mayfield to a team that won one game in two years. The plan was for him to sit behind Taylor and learn.

Since then Mayfield has played for three head coaches and three different offensive coordinators in his first two years in professional football. What a great introduction.

Talk about dysfunction. Read the article about what Monken stated about game week preparation.

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/..._12680_30935687

What a great environment to develop a quarterback.

Despite that he set the NFL rookie record for a quarterback.

And there are posters who want to get someone else??

Un effing real.

I wanted Darnold. Another guy who went to chaos.

Message alert! It takes time and players around you with good coaching to develop into a NFL quarterback.

Well said.

We're not getting a talent like Mayfield anytime soon anyway. Certainly not this off-season. We might as well put a functional offense/coaching staff around him for a while and see what he can do.

Baker cannot control what goes on around him.
But he can control how he approaches the game itself. And his approach in 2019 was absent
Of determination and a willingness to overcome
Whatever dysfunction was around him.
But now we are only hearing about the dysfunction

You are a student when you come into the NFL not a teacher.

When a QB has to constantly re-direct his star WR all year long when breaking the huddle...you might have an issue.

When your star WRs are running routes like 6th Rd projects...you might have a problem.

When your coach gets the play in with 10 seconds on the play-clock AND you have to redirect your star WR...you m ight have a problem looking at what the D is doing.

When you don't have ONE reliable TE on your team...you might struggle.

When your coach continually insists on empty backfield sets with the best RB in football on the bench and an OL that is a sieve...you might as well chalk up the year as a waste and get ready for next year.

The worst thing is that we really got zero insight on Baker's ability to develop into what he appeared to be capable of last year.

Yea poor baker mayfield. Broke the TD record as a rookie, then campaigned for his boy to get the HC job, and got EXACTLY what he wanted.

Everything you posted doesn’t absolve The fact that baker, by his own words, thought it was gonna be easy. Doesn’t absolve him from not taking this seriously because he thought they would just show up and play well.

I dunno if you directed your “some posters want to get rid of baker” toward me or not, but since you’re responding to my post, I hope you didn’t put me in that category. I said he’s gonna get his full rookie contract to show he’s the guy, but you’re #1 overall pick DIDNT so much of anything to show he’s capable of putting this team on his back and gutting out a win. A #1 overall should be able to beat a Denver or Arizona or a cincy regardless of circumstances.

Those were bad teams we lost too, and while the team itself sucked, that ALSO includes baker mayfield. Baker mayfield was bad.

I actually wonder if you, Haus, and others are capable of actually criticizing baker without the “yea, but” added to it. Cause I haven’t seen it yet.

Baker mayfield is short, not athletic, and couldn’t read defense worth a damn this season. His mechanics were completely trash, couldn’t keep his mouth shut at press conferences or social media, and thought this season was gonna be handed to him.

You can blame he coaching staff, but guess who campaigned for it to begin with: baker. I think it’s pathetic that a second year QB had that much influence over who the HC was gonna be, but that’s the reality.

So, poor baker because he’s a victim of his own doing?

We should’ve drafted Lamar. Atleast character wouldn’t be a concern with him. Atleast athletic ability wouldn’t had been a concern. Yea, maybe we should’ve went with Darnold or Rosen. Dude missed a month with the cooties and still managed to have a better record this Season than mayfield.

Instead we got a pocket passing, non athletic version of manziel, and a guy who needs everything around him to be perfect to succeed in case Keenum.

I’m tired of the excuses being given to why baker mayfield himself was trash this season.

It’s always everyone else’s fault but his.

There’s a good chance that we hire somebody with an offensive background. Whether it’s McCarthy, the OC from the chiefs, or stefanski.

What’s gonna be the excuse for baker if he doesn’t perform then? That those guys didn’t know what they’re doing as well? Because no coach is responsible for baker saying he doesn’t need any help during the offseason to work on his flaws.

You saw how seriously Lamar took the offseason, and now he’s gonna be MVP and has the #1 seed for his team. Allen took his team to the playoffs in his second year. Darnold also has a crap coach in Adam gase, yet not only finished with better stats, but with a better record.

Tired of the excuses. Baker primary reason for failure this season is because of baker.

It really was not directed at you but ok.

After each game in "post game" I made clear reference to all Baker did wrong.

No excuses there. There is no question he could have played better. He may have been been able to do more to prepare for the season.

But did not Freddie tell him to get away from the game?

Did Odell and Landry attend OTA's? Did the team look prepared to play the Titans?

Was there improvement over the course of the season?

Were the Browns not ranked 30th against the run?

Were the loses to those poor teams all on Baker?

Does it make a difference when a team is prepared correctly? And the players actually do what they are supposed too. How many starters did we have on the OL?

Baker can play better. I don't question that. He could learn to keep his mouth shut at times as well.

But let's keep a perspective here. You don't walk into the NFL as a rookie quarterback and assume the role as leader and head coach.

You can speculate about his influence on the hiring of Freddie? But maybe the results of the past few days tell a different story. Rookie quarterbacks don't hire the head coach. Jimmy does.

Shoulda woulda coulda he was drafted here.

The fact is he is two years into the league on a bad team that has been poorly managed. From ownership on down to the three head coaches and OC's he played for.

He is a player on a team. He doesn't run the practice or prepared game plans. He doesn't call the plays. He doesn't block, or run routes or catch passes.

He is a second year quarterback in professional football.

My point is judge him as you see fit. But consider all factors.

I don't know how Baker will turn out. But I do think it unfair to give up on him at this point.

Baker gets plenty of well-deserved criticism on here. What is so obviously missing from your Baker comparison to LJ or Allen is the team that was put around those guys...the schemes...and the coaching.

Those teams, schemes and coaching were built/designed to HELP their young QBs...not designed to feed the coaches' ego or stubbornness.

LJ and Allen would suck on our team as put-together for 2019...who would LJ throw the ball to on our team? Harris or RSJ? Both guys have Olines that make ours look like a row of folding chairs.

A Baker v Lamar comparison is as ridiculous this year as it was last year. They are two completely different guys playing on two completely different teams for two completely different franchises.

what does the browns being ranked 30th in the run have anything to do with his piss poor peformance?

the defense gave up points, but the reality is that the defense performed better this year than last, despite having about the same amount of injuries.

the team wasnt prepared at all against the titans....which includes bakers 3 picks that game, including the pick 6.

landry and OBJ, for all there faults, still balled this season, and had an inaccurate QB throwing them the ball. ya know, the thing that was suppose to be a strength of mayfield.

all of those things surrounding baker has been/currenty discussed in other threads. but i use this to evaluate bakers play.

and his play was garbage this year. period.

59% completion, 22 TD's to 21 picks, only winston threw more picks. and then he finished the season against a 1-14 team tossing another 3 picks.

but of course i get another "yea but" post from you.

he better perform next season. i dont think he's all that talented, and hasnt shown anything to disprove that.

some will look at the rookie year as proof and this year as a fluke.

it could easily be that his rookie season was the fluke, and this year is the real baker mayfield.

but hey, he doesnt need any help, right? i mean, those were his words afterall.

I think the biggest factor in Bakers future is Bakers attitude. We can bring in a high quality coach and if he wants to be a weenie (I dont think he REALLY does) then his career is a failure. Tools are there, fight is there, opportunity is there. It's all in his hands now. I'm beginning to think this season, with Fred's playcalling and the strife between him and his OC that this season was just a big cluster you know what.

the team?

baker mayfield had more playmakers than Lamar and Allen. baker had the best RB in football, two all pro WR's.

i was gonna give you the TE position was bad.....OH WAIT, it was bad because baker mayfield threw the nastiest medicine ball this season and had Njoku out for pretty much the entire year.

the o line wasnt the greatest, but baker mayfield horrible ability to read defense and float out the pocket saw him literally running into sacks. him running right into the arms of Clay matthews against the rams is something i wont forget anytime soon.

the scheme, the coaches? who picked the coach? Baker mayfield and dorsey. he made sure to get his boy hired, so yea, baker deserves a % of blame for that too.

Baker vs anybody isn't ridiculous at all. he's always gonna be compared to other QB's in his draft class, because thats what happens to ALL QB's in this league. this aint unique to just baker, yet here you go trying to make this dude out to be the victim.

and im not advocating for change. but i also bought into the hype of him, and now i regret it. i thought and even made the thread that he was gonna have a great season, and lead us to titles. but i didnt see anything that says he's capable of that this season.

Baker needs to start performing like a #1 overall pick. period.

and thats my problem.

everybody is gonna blame freddie, but freddie wasnt the one who stated he doesnt need any offseason help to work on his game. that was all baker.

posters are bringing up the fact that he's young and still needs to grow. i agree with that.

the problem is that the youn guy who still needs to grow doesnt want or need any help from anybody. thats what he said, after all. he's perfectly fine with fixing his flaws all on his own.

i guess that will be the next coaching stafffs fault too.

One could argue that the very fact that Baker helped pick our last head coach is evidence of dysfunction in the organization.

What does a QB, coming off his rookie season, know about what it takes to be a head coach in the NFL? Especially given the nonsense he was saddled with coming into the league.

Almost like an alcoholic or drug addict. I dont need help. I can change at any time.

I'd hope BM is more sensible. He does admit he needs to be better but if being better means seeking advice then that's the route you go.

no one needs any additional evidence to prove dysfunction in this organization. stating that theres dysfunction in brownstown is like saying the the sun will rise in the morning, but we already have 3-4 threads going on about that.

but ill bite: you know what also could be evidence of the dysfunction in cleveland? drafting baker mayfield.

There was dysfunction there but it sure wasn't drafting Baker Mayfield. Keep in mind, not two months after we drafted him, Hue Jackson was making his 0-16 jump into Lake Erie. If an NFL team has made a dumber, more dysfunctional decision than bringing back a 1-31 coach to pair with a #1 overall QB, I'd like to hear about it.

Meanwhile, Lamar went to a consistently winning team, with a head coach that had already won a Super Bowl (with Joe Freaking Flacco), an offense built by Greg Roman (who had already done a great job with Kaep in San Fran, and Taylor in Buffalo).

It is true that Lamar deserves plenty of credit for working hard at his craft, and by all accounts, taking things more seriously than Baker did this off-season. I think there's a little more to it than either side wants to admit. However, let's not pretend that if we flipped teams who drafted them (Lamar to the Browns, Baker to the Ravens) that they'd be the same players today. That is a laughable idea, if there's anyone who even believes it in the first place.

He didn't say that he doesn't need help. He said they need to be prepared for OTA's and not waste time during OTA's.

He said he wanted to work out with whoever is on the team and not rehabbing from injury.

For you to try to interpret everything he says out of context is agenda posting.

Let's look at his resume. I doubt he got to be the number one pick at 6'1" and a walk on twice by being ill prepared.
Does that make sense? Since he is so un-athletic.

Playing in the NFL and your not a athlete? Really?

Look trash Baker all you want. Makes no difference he is our quarterback. And he will be for the foreseeable future.

The team is starting over again. Whoever is the new head coach, GM, and staff. They will inherit Baker.

Maybe the candidates whoever they are will decide if they want to take the job based upon Baker. That is a reasonable assumption.

How it will turn out?

Baker was not drafted number one and would have been drafted by others quickly if we passed. Thinking he could not play in the NFL.

He didn't forget how to throw accurately after all the numbers he put up.

Maybe he will turn into a lump of coal or a diamond?

Time will tell. Not what you or I think we know.

I just want to add one thing ......

Jackson loves using the middle of the field, and specifically, throwing to his TE ..... and he has 3 useful TE on his team. He had 289 completions this season, and 125 of those went to his 3 TE. 49 went to his RBs. 115 went to his WRs.

At Oklahoma, Baker threw to his TEs a lot. Who did we have at TE this year? Njoku was lost for most of the season. We cut Fells. The entire TE room, 5 different TE, caught only 41 passes out of 317 total completions by Baker. We failed to construct a team that played to his strengths. Last year, Njoku has his 2nd leading receiver. This year ..... TE was a big, gaping hole.

Hopefully we address the position this off-season.

Lamar also has the benefit of playing behind the BEST OL in football.

Our OF was complete garbage and I don't care what PFF says. OTs were garbage, RG was garbage. TEs sucked as well. That is 3/5 of the OL

Baker had his issues for sure, but he was hardly in the ideal situation to have success. All the shiny toys (OBJ, Landry, Hunt) are nice, but you win in the trenches and that is where Dorsey failed miserably, plain and simple.

At some point you have to question how much of the problems rests with Baker and how much of it rested with the coaching.

I've certainly not been bashful about pointing out when I've seen things that Baker has done that are negative. Some of the blame surely is on his end of things.

But everyone willing to be honest about it knew he was a brash kid and would need a hard nosed HC to reign him in and make him accountable. The only stretch of time we had such a HC was the last half of the 2018 season. The results looked pretty good then.

That's what it will take if we expect Baker to succeed. A hard nosed HC that won't put up with nonsense and that makes Baker accountable.

We all saw the potential in 2018. We saw how he did when a HC like Williams was in charge. That doesn't mean Williams would have made a good HC. What it does mean is we saw a different Baker when we had a HC that wouldn't put up with BS.

I certainly can't say which way the book will read on Baker's career. But I am willing to say that I'm not going to judge the book on him based on the first couple of chapters.

What do you mean at some point?

We’re all in other threads talking about how bad the coaching staff was. How dysfunctional the organization is.

Why can’t I simply evaluate baker based on his own individual performance and his inability to keep his mouth shut?

It’s actively being discussed how much of the problem rest with coaching. But this thread was made (again, not by me) talking about the players themselves. So there is no “at some point” because it’s already been done.

This thing about a hard nose HC.....yea great. I like those kinds of coaches too, but what does it say about our supposedly franchise QB that he can’t even do the little things or take initiative by himself that we basically need a drill sergeant to hold his hand?

Like damn baker shouldn’t be held responsible for not doing the little things and thinking it was easy? He shouldn’t be EXPECTED to take initiative and do the things off the field that he can control?

Man come on.....at the end of the day, he’s a grown ass man, who should be expected to do the things that are in his control, regardless of how tough or soft the coach is.

The more you guys post with these crazy defenses of baker, the more it sounds like he’s less of a #1 overall pick and more of a massive project that shouldve been drafted in the 5th round.

Damn Colin cowherd for being correct.

It was two pronged and ended up equaling a horrid season.

You're on a roll today aren't you?

I guess you missed the part where I said Baker was at least in part responsible for his own shortcomings.

I just don't think that's the entire story here.

Like I’ve said, baker better perform next season.

The honeymoon wore off during the season, so what’s gonna happen if we get a similar mayfield with a different coach?

And his recent comments about not needing any help doesn’t exactly inspire confidence. Maybe it does for you, but don’t expect me to agree.

I'm not confident in Mayfield by any stretch. I too thought his comments about not working with a QB guru during the off season was stupid.

I don't know where the hell you're reaching your conclusions from regarding my opinion. I'm just willing to see if a hard nosed HC can make a difference.

Baker was certified trash this year and showed no signs he's the long term answer. Was the dysfunctional organization partly to blame? Yes, of course. But it was shown over and over and over again, time and time again, play after play, Baker Mayfield had no idea what he was doing or where to go with the ball. He takes so long to get off his first read there's almost no point going through his progressions. The window on the 2nd and 3rd and 4th options have already closed. 90% of time in the NFL receivers are open if you know where to go with the ball. He just doesn't know.

The only difference between Baker and other guys that have come through here is that Baker will push the ball downfield. I think this is an important aspect that holds out some hope that he can turn it around. You can't change check down Charlies. They are what they are and will never be good. Baker is aggressive. If he can just get better at recognition I think there is still hope. But I don't know if he'll put in the work. I think he will be forced to under McCarthy and McDaniels. Those are my top choices, in that order.

Or just tank for Lawrence next year.

And for all the Baker fans out there, I ask that you consider this perspective. He thought so much of you, that he didn't work in the off season, came into the season with an attitude, continued that attitude throughout the season, embarrassed the franchise repeatedly on and off the field, and had the arrogance to claim he knows what he needs to work on. He also lobbied for Freddie then turned his back on him (listen to one of his recent pressers when asked about Freddie'sjob security). If he cares so little about you, why do you love him so much? If he wasn't willing to be the best version of himself for the Cleveland Browns, why do you love him so much?

Talk little, work hard, win games.