Odell by most accounts is one of the best receivers in the NFL. He is also in his prime.

He has not had a 100 yard game. What happened?

Why is a receiver considered to be so good have such little impact?

Scoring TD's TWO.

Deep balls few.

What has he done? Not much to change the record.

Who is at fault? Freddie and Monken. No matter how you slice and dice this where was the plan?

You make a trade to get this guy. Where was the plan to incorporate him into the offense? What are his best routes?etc.

Odell was brought here to score touchdowns. To get first downs and have a impact on the offense.

What happened? Is it a matter of chemistry with Baker?

Is it the offensive scheme? Or, individual game plans?

Jarvis and Odell have been here all year. The third and fourth receiver has been in flux between Callaway, Higgins, Ratley, and Hodge.

Chubb has carried the load till Hunt was added. We are 11th in rushing; 17th in passing.

Chubb is number one in rushing yardage.

Baker is 11th in passing yardage.

Why has this offense underachieved?

Offensive Line? I doubt anyone has any illusions about our tackles. However, no matter there are ways to compensate if only to a degree.

Coaching?

The buck has to stop somewhere.

If you think we have the talent and are underachieving then someone is at fault.

If that is the case where did Freddie go wrong?

It seems you left out a possible but very important part in your guesses as to what might be wrong. Baker...

I'm not saying that's the problem. But many of us have seen him overlook open WR's on many occasions. Could it be as simple as Baker doesn't have the confidence or isn't looking as hard for OBJ to be open than he is Landry?

The reason I bring this up is because so many posters said that Higgins seemed like Baker's security blanket last year. They were upset that Higgins wasn't playing more. This year it seems like Landry is that security blanket.

One of the bigger disappointments we’ve had ... his production couldn’t be much worse given his talent and the talent around him.

Yesterday ... 3 catches for 29 yards in the biggest game of the year?? Nonsense.

IMO, our team culture changed drastically when he was acquired ... Baker was no longer the alpha, our O was tailored to make him happy, and it took us a LONG time to adjust (and we still haven’t).

Probably a move that Dorsey wouldn’t do over given the hindsight

I don't think the problem is odell, he's been a good soldier and has actually been behaved despite not getting the targets...he can't throw himself the ball

Our coaches can't seem to work out how to get him the ball and plays are taking too long to develop given our Oline issues. Add on top of it Baker missing him in his reads and it relegates OBJ to a blocker for Harris rather than a legit threat up high, on the wing or in the flat.

I think coaches and Dorsey are to blame. Coaches because they can't seem to work out how best to utilize the amazing talent that they have been given. Dorsey because our Oline was a known weakness, yet he didn't address it in the offseason and it has plagued us all year.

What's a Odell?

Freddie and Baker are the problem. The scheme is trash, and Baker has not been accurate this year, mainly because of his poor mechanics.

That pretty much sums it up

3 catches for 29 yards for Odell AND we didn't run it nearly enough in the second half.

Those 2 things happened in the same game.

The only other thing I will say is that we target OBJ a fair amount, but those plays aren't getting there.

He had 161 yards week 2
he had 101 yards week 6

Yet it's the two OT's that seem to be the problem. The exact same OT's we had during the last half of last season. You remember, when we were winning?

As I said at OTA"s Odell hurt himself and the team by not showing up. He also hurt the team by not being able to play in training camp or the pre season. If he want's to complain about his numbers this year he needs to look in the mirror to see the biggest problem. Aslso with both or our Offensive tackles sucking we have not been able to go deep this year without getting Baker killed.

Cleveland Browns' use of Odell Beckham Jr. remains baffling

Through their first 12 games, the Cleveland Browns have failed to properly integrate Odell Beckham Jr. into their offense.
Author: Ben Axelrod

Updated: 3:27 PM EST December 2, 2019

https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/...d1-bd775d19077d
CLEVELAND — Following his team's 41-24 victory over the Miami Dolphins last week, Cleveland Browns wide receiver Odell Beckham Jr. made an interesting remark about the 35-yard touchdown catch he made in the first quarter.

"It was what it was," Beckham said. "I wasn't super excited about it knowing and feeling the disappointment that I should have been in [the end zone] a long time ago, so it was pretty mixed emotions."

Beckham didn't stick around to talk to reporters four days later after the Browns' 20-13 loss to the Steelers in Pittsburgh.

Suffice to say, there wasn't anything mixed about his emotions on Sunday.

After seeing his involvement increase over the course of what wound up being a three-game winning streak, the Browns' prized offseason acquisition was once again an afterthought in another Cleveland loss. Targeted just six times, Beckham tallied three catches for 29 yards, which marked his least productive output since he caught two balls for 27 yards in the Browns' 31-3 loss to the San Francisco 49ers on Oct. 27.

To say that Beckham's debut season in Cleveland has been underwhelming would be an understatement, as any Browns fan (or Beckham fantasy football owner) would be the first to tell you. Through 12 games, the 2014 NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year has recorded 57 passes for 805 yards and 2 touchdowns, which puts him on pace for the least productive year of his career (excluding his 2017 campaign, which was marred by injury).

Beckham isn't blameless and it's worth noting that his current 55.3 catch percentage (receptions divided by targets) is the worst of his career. And his six drops this season are currently tied for the fifth-most in the NFL with four games still remaining in the 2019 campaign.

But considering the expectations that were placed on both the Browns and Beckham this season -- and the step forward Beckham was supposed to take with Baker Mayfield as his quarterback -- the lack of cohesion between the two entities to this point remains nothing short of baffling. With Cleveland's playoff hopes on the line against the Steelers on Sunday, the Browns targeted their star wide receiver just six times -- which matched two other occasions this year for a season-low.

“I tried to call plays that work. I try to call plays to get him open. I try to call plays to move the ball," Browns head coach Freddie Kitchens said after the game. "I think we played the type of game we needed to play to come in here and win."

Only the Browns didn't win and Beckham's lack of involvement could be considered one of the many reasons why. It's not a coincidence that over the course of Cleveland's three-game winning streak, the LSU product was targeted a total of 30 times. And while that didn't always translate into production for Beckham, it clearly helped open up holes in opposing defenses for the likes of Jarvis Landry, Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt.

As he showed when he caught a 42-yard bomb on the opening drive of the Browns' 21-7 win over the Steelers on Nov. 14, Beckham is capable of changing any game with just one play, so long as he's given ample opportunity to do just that. And while Kitchens insisted that his star wideout's lack of involvement was the result of a run-heavy game plan, that doesn't change the fact that Cleveland attempted 32 passes on Sunday and attempted just six total runs in the second half.

For Beckham to only get six targets in a game renders him little more than a decoy and calls into question why the Browns acquired him for such a massive haul in the offseason in the first place. Asked about Beckham's lack of touches, Mayfield -- for at least the second time this season -- called it "frustrating."

Based on Beckham's lack of availability comment, he clearly wasn't the only one to feel such sentiment.

Cant remember which one but a commentator on a halftime show said the playcalling was atrocious

I made mention of the chemistry with Baker.

Unless you can get the right camera angles it hard to see from regular tv the full routes.

I can't tell if Odell has been open unless the full picture is provided.

At times plays have been designed to get Odell the ball. Not all have been pure pass routes. The reverses or him out of the backfield have been a disaster.

Play designs. The playbook is a permanent work in progress. However, route trees should be made to player strengths. Adjustments have to made as different things happen. Like McCray starting for Robinson. Or, Watt against Hubbard.

Also what plays should work against the weaknesses of your opponent. Mismatches and ability to run the ball etc.

I am beginning to wonder about the offensive concept.

What is the baseline offensive structure? WCO, Spread, Play action etc.

When the season started what was it? As the season progressed what changes were made? Where are we now?

Freddie began saying this is the Browns offense not Arians, not Haley, etc.

Honestly, I am confused. I don't know what we are or what kind of playing personality we are trying to be.

You watch the 49ers or Ravens. I know what their baseline is.

In some ways this is the chicken or egg argument. Do you have an offense and put the players in it? Or, do you look at your players and develop an offense?

I really don't know what we are.

Baker is the point guard. I think you start there. There is not a throw that he can not make. He has plenty of arm strength. He can extend plays. He can throw off the run.

My belief is he would flourish under Sean Payton. The Browns would do well to study that offense.

Baker is no Drew Brees at this stage. Brees is one of the best to ever play the position. But he is a good template to work from. Baker could learn a lot from studying Drew.

The Browns offense to date has been a failure. My take is we have the talent to be better.

But we are not using it properly.

I question the offensive staff and Freddie. That is where it starts.

The problem with Beckham is Baker Mayfield.

Mayfield has been awful for most of the year. He puts up decent games against the likes of the Dolphins, but any team that even has even an average secondary or average coaching and he absolutely sucks.

I have seen enough this year to know the chances of Mayfield being our answer at QB is less then 5% he isn't very good. His wife calling out reporters defending him is making the Browns look even worse, she should just shush she is making the whole thing worse.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/baker...kitchens-shirt/

I honestly don't see why we even took him at the Top of the draft. He is short, slow, with an above average arm. That pass he threw way too high to Harris in the endzone cost us the game pretty much.

If the Browns are smart, they go out and Hire Rex Ryan as HC, they go out and Sign Teddy Bridgewater as QB and make Mayfield sit his arse down. I guarantee you Bridgewater will feed Beckham the damn football.

Rex Ryan would die to have a backfield of Hunt and Chubb you kidding me? and a DE like Garret....if getting Rex Ryan means getting rid of Dorsey than do it. Enough of this nonsense.Rex Ryan brings up back to that hard nosed kick your teethin in Browns football of the 80's. Make it happen!

You are welcome to post whatever you believe.

I could not disagree with you more.

Are you sure its the coaches and not the guy throwing the ball? How do you know what play is called and who is primary?

I'm not going to say I totally agree with KOB but he does make a point. Baker has not been accurate this season as a whole. He has streaks where he looks good and then seems to fall apart. The second half of the Steelers game for example. He certainly was not consistently accurate.

And I can't say for sure if he's missing an open Odell. Because you are right that it's very hard to tell about a specific WR on every play. But I have certainly seen him missing open WR's on many plays and some have even been shown on replay on the TV. So it stands to reason that it's a legitimate question in regards to Odell.

I believe Baker is still a work in progress. But there's little doubt that his accuracy and finding the open man has been a consistent problem this season.

Yes, Rex is such a great coach, that's why hes on TV - he didn't know which team to chose an offer from

You are right tho, Rex would die - because he would be so startled at an offer he would have a heart attack.

What?

We would be lucky to get Rex Ryan.

Do you realize Rex Ryan is the only NFL coach pretty much to go into Foxboro IN THE PLAYOFFS and Beat Bellichik and Brady in their primes in the postseason? He did this with Mark Sanchez at QB for crying out loud!

Did you also know he shut the Patriots out at Foxboro 16-0 in 2016 with a crap Bills team.

Rex Ryan would be the best coach we have had here since Schotenheimer. We would be crazy not to hire him. If your tired of losing, either him or McCarthy are the only two proven guys out there with actual playoff wins under their belt.

We won't win anything with Fat Boy and Midget man.

OBJ is pretty much always open when I focus on him from my seat, he constantly beats his man, the problem is Baker. Baker makes one read then rolls to the right and doesn't see him. If Baker could go through his progressions he would catch OBJ open all the time for big plays.

I put this on Coaching....

when odell actually gets the ball, he's making things happen.

as bad as our offense has looked under freddie and an inaccurate Baker, lets be real here about our WRs:

Jarvis landry has 65 catches for 919 yards.
OBJ has 57 catches for 805 yards.

and none of them have missed a game.

if OBJ averages 50 yards over the next 4 games, he's over 1000. jarvis should crack that next week.

these guys are performing when given a chance.

but again, we have a coach who calls crap plays, and a QB unwilling to show that same gunslinger mentality he showed last season.

give us rookie season Mayfield, and we'd be having an entirely different convo about OBJ, regardless of freddie's crap calling.

My unpopular opinion: I dont feel that OBJ tries hard enough. I feel he is skating and counting the days until he can leave Cle. He doesnt really seem like he engages his teammates unless their name is Landry.

I suggest Baker looks like crap and makes the wrong decisions because he has been told who to get the ball to before the play. Suddenly taking too long, holding it too long, staring the Chosen down, taking sacks waiting for that guy to get open, forcing the ball into double coverage, throwing late and behind, a number of bad pieces make sense.

The short checkdown and these three-story misses are making me crazy. I don't expect perfection, just a good deal better. Because it seems to be the new normal.

The offensive problems have always been Freddie. Baker is an above-average QB in his sophomore slump season and everyone can see it.

The playcalling has been more atrocious than Mo Carton.

The problem with Odell is that none of our other receivers scare other teams. Landry is good, but he's not someone you give over the top help. Other teams take Odell away early when he's the first read, then once Baker gets frustrated and we move away from looking for OBJ, defenses mix things up. Once teams stop focusing on OBJ, other guys aren't so open and Baker struggles with the change up.

It's a working theory. Haven't had the motivation to go back and watch the games he's struggled in. Once was enough. I'll probably go back after the season once there's some distance from the emotion.

A part of it is Baker, but I think it stems from the OL woes. The rush is in his head. Trading Zeitler ruined the wall in front of him.

I have long felt a good guards and a good center are most important for a QB. If the QB knows his front is going to be protected, the QB can help the tackles by stepping up even a few feet.

The tackles can then just not get beat inside. Get beat wide, not a big problem with a QB who steps up, that puts the tackles back in to position.

If we get the line in shape, Baker will be in shape...he was sacked what, 5 times yesterday. It's easy for you to say get rid of the ball faster, or make quicker reads, but I don't think he held the ball yesterday. He was consumed up the middle rather quickly. Now all of a sudden the QB isn't making reads, he is making a single read to get it out.

Then Odell has the time to get in to his routes and all is good. It's just not going to happen this year.

I could see our first two picks being O-line picks.

There are many factors at play here.

I have no way to substantiate it. So it is a guess:

If someone were to perform a survey of the NFL GM's, head coaches, and other quarterbacks from the league past or present.

My guess, very few would not consider Baker a very good prospect now and one who could become great.

Not saying he has not had some issues. Just going forward.
I see no way Dorsey gives up on Baker.

This offense with the players on this team right now has under performed.

It can either be fixed or it needs to change?

Can Freddie and his staff fix it or do they get a new staff?

Let's not forget all the two-handed drops. Or how poorly he catches when tightly covered. So far, I'm unimpressed.

Cal, I am so damn angry at this team.

It is hard to remain calm and talk about stuff.

We are so helpless in all this. We sit back and watch the product in front of us.

The off season starts before Xmas or before with the Browns. Then we go through all the coming roster changes from free agency and then the draft. Then go through all the prep for the season. Waiting for opening day with all our hopes. Lose the first game and spend the rest of the season chasing 500.

Rinse and repeat.

I want to win and feel like we are the track to win a Super Bowl.

The financial structure of the NFL (unlike baseball) makes it possible for bad teams to get well and compete for a title. It does not favor the rich. Manage your team right and you can win a championship.

And here we are.

Only if you can hold your team together long enough to get it going in the right direction while hopefully putting out the correct fires and not jettisoning perfectly good players & coaches.



OBJ has had problems.
Baker has had problems.
The OLine has had a ton of problems.
Higgins has had problems.
Freddie & Whatshisname have had problems.

The 'O', in general, is like an old flathead with bad points. It could run like a champ, but at best it just sputters here and there right now.

Wish we still had Zeitler.

Haven't seen any problems with OBJ, honestly
OL is playing well the run game

When Baker is not dink donking he is a turnover machine. And dink donking is a waste of the best WR's in the league.

J/c

The drops are a concern for sure. He’s been anything but reliable and consistent ... whether it’s his fault, Baker’s, the coaching, etc.

Last year Landry had more drops and nobody was worried.

Both OBJ and Landry are great receivers, much better receivers than Baker will ever be a QB.

yep, hes such a great coach that's why hes unemployed.

No? The big time drops of balls hitting him right in the hands is not a problem? Running wrong routes has not been a problem?

Ummmmm, do you have a foot fetish?

When? Ohh running wrong routes, I see where you want to go..

Which big time drops are you referring? The ones that were never thrown?

I don't think its a very good idea to try to excuse Baker blaming Landry and OBJ...

No Rex Ryan. We have problems, but no.

To get back on topic.

What the Browns "should do" is go out and sign Teddy Bridgewater to a contact in the offseason. This should not be hard considering we have Hunt, Chubb, OBJ, and Landry I don't think there is a better situation for him.

I have ZERO doubts that Bridgewater can't beat Mayfield out on camp. Mayfield isn't that good, he is too short, he is atrocious in reading coverages. Bridgewater would be a HUGE upgrade at the QB position.

If we ever want Mayfield to amount to anything we need to humble this kid, and we do it by showing him that NOTHING is just handed to you in the world. He isn't entitled to a starting position just because he was the 1st pick in the draft. He needs real compeition to compete for his spot like everyone else.

In this business you either step up or you step aside.

Again Mayfield is all hype a very little substance...im pretty much 99.9% certain he couldn't beat Teddy Bridgewater out in camp. Did you see what Bridewater did when Brees was hurt?

9 TD
2 INTS
98.9 QBR
1,370 yards
67.7 completion percentage.

Considering we should have drafted Bridgewater anyways, its makes sense. Bring him in, either Baker will work his tail off and kick, scratch, claw, and find a way to beat him out, or he won't...either way we get our QB position upgrade. We have left Mayfield get comfortable and feel entitled to have that position, he has no one to compete with. Competition is healthy, it brings out the best in players, if every other position on this roster has to compete to keep their jobs, so should Mayfield.

Do you watch he games? He's dropped MULTIPLE 3rd down passes right in his hands.

Where did I excuse baker? it was replied there were not problems with OBJ, I pointed out he has had SEVERAL drops.

Hes also caused unneeded distractions over shoes and visors, and had to be taken out of a game on a key drive in the RedZone over said visor.

YOU constantly bash baker on this board, and then not give any blame to ANYONE but Baker, yet your going to try to call me out for baking baker when I never even said his damn name?! Theres a word for that ya know?

And yes, running wrong routes has been reported, and discussed. Pointing that out does not mean that baker still doesn't need work. But DO NOT try to sit there TROLLING as you do, saying that its all on baker, when obviously this mess STARTS at the top with Haslam/Dorsey/Kitchens and works it way down.

Your a joke.

Yeah, the kid who walked on a team to win the FREAKING HEISMAN has had it alllll handed to him. lol. Your another joke.

We were a team on the move ( up ) the second half of last season . Reasonable men would state " if it ain't broke don't fix it "

Dorsey decides to fix it ! Unfortunately William was a way to strong Coach for John ( as some of us pointed out ) We ended up moving all the major Coaching positions .. See we Fixed it but good !

many times Porsche parts will not work in Fords .. ( OBJ )

In the old days we would need to reset the timing ..lol

Joke is on anyone who says OBJ has problems catching balls and running routs.

OBJ has less drops than Landry last year,he also never had problems with drops even with Eli throwing.

We have 2 off the best receivers in the league, find the blame somewhere else.

Clearly we have a problem, we cannot win to good teams. Dorsey did the right thing bringing talent.

Its absurd to be criticizing the good players and the talent on this team.

And we can't win the race with the Ford, we need a racing car, so if the driver can't do it please hand the keys to someone else that can.

Mayfield can't read a defense to save his life. This is why he only plays decent against crap secondaries like the Dolphins...if he doesn't know how to read a D by now, he is never going to learn.

Mayfield does ok against man coverage, but ANY zone..cover 2, cover 3, cover 4, etc...any zone coverage and the guy is lost completely.

The Steelers changed their D to zone and Mayfield fell apart. Mayfield is #1 reason we are 5-7 right now. No one in the Big 12 plays D, Oklahoma guys were wide open by 5 yards, most teams play man coverage. Baker has yet to show he can adjust even slightly to a zone D

Greg Willaims put out the book on Mayfield, show Man coverage pre-snap and then switch to a zone scheme and the kid is lost. Thats what Pittsburgh did in the 2nd half in all but one drive and Mayfield just stood back there holding the ball getting sacked.

Mayfield is what he is at this point. He isn't going to magically learn how to read zone overnight. Franchise QB, guys like Manning, Brees, Brady, etc...all those guys knew how to read zone D coming out of the draft, Mayfield is so far behind the curve.

Furthermore, I question if Mayfield has the will to really want it. Is he going to sit at home this offseason with nothing but a clicker and watch film 6 days a week for 4-5 hours a day after weight training and throwing? Is he going to humble himself and sit his rear end down and as Ray Lewis would say and figure out how to beat what the NFL is throwing at him?

I seriously question if he will do that. I think he is more interested in making commercials and being on Tv than he is being great at football. You don't see Brady, Rothlisberger, Brees, spending their offseason making commercials. I really hope he proves me wrong, but I doubt it.

He got outplayed by Duck Hodges for FFS a undrafted guy who was cut in training camp throwing to receivers that are castoffs and practice squad guys while Mayfield as OBJ and Landry? lol...get outta here...its obvious Mayfield wasn't willing to put in the time this offseason, and see nothing that tells me he will this offseason either.

go after Teddy Bridgewater and send a loud and clear message that the gravy train ride is over...either you focus on football or we will have a guy who will, plain and simple.

Clearly Mayfield is not an elite QB, but he still is very good, we can face that fact and play to his strengths and build the O around Chubb and Hunt.

Honestly don't believe Baker is willing to take the back seat...

Baker has been so disappointing.

I think Knight is dramatic but Baker is just not screaming franchise QB. I think you build the team up around him ala Jarad Goff and see what happens. But John Dorsey has done a lot of damage to the team so I'm not even sure where you start to build it up.

We are back to normal Cleveland Browns football. Meaningless December and no excitement for next year.

I don't care what he walked on to in college it means ZERO

Kyler Murray won the Heisman too, whats you point? Oklahoma is good with any bum at QB. Jalen Hurts looks pretty good right now with 31 TD 7 INTs, 71% completion percentage.

Mayfield is a 80's rated passer for his career. I expect that to fall into the 70's by the end of the year. 70's rated passers are backups at the NFL level. You keep riding the Mayfield hype train because thats all it is is hype.

A guy who can't even get his QBR in the mid 90's with both Landry and OBJ at WR with a ridiculous running game from Chubb and Hunt is NOT a franchise QB...Mayfield will be a backup in two years.

hahaa you do realize you can run a good route and its still the WRONG route right? your comprehension is pooh.

I never said he couldn't run a route, I said he was running WRONG routes, which has been reported to be the case - yet you twist things to TROLL as you do.

FYI, Odell has more drops this year so far than he had ALL last year. DROPS meaning balls that should have been caught. Which means those are not on Baker.

Your right, he never had a problem dropping with Eli, maybe that's because HE PRACTICED and SHOWED up to camp in NY? lol which was the entire point on the post.

We don't have the two best receivers in the league. We have two of the most TALENTED yes, but not the best. The best produce.

OBJ has not.

Oh and back to that, last year - he was top 3 in drops since 2016

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/...y-not-proud-of/

Yep, an entire new offense, and 0 oline has nothing to do with it. . . . . .

I know i get pretty fired up about Mayfield and I apologize but the kid has so much potential and he is just peeing it away.

Todd Haley was right, Mayfield was too immature and wasn't ready for success in the NFL. He broke those records last year and he thought he had the NFL figured out, he thought "how hard can it be" no realizing that unlike college NFL d coordinators adjust.

The NFL has a way of humbling guys, and the only guys as QB who end up truly great are the guys who study, study, study, study...look at Tom Brady he isn't some gym rate..he spends 20% training and 80% watching film and studying.

it takes a lot of boring time to become a great QB like Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rothlisberger...I question if Mayfield and his lifestyle is going to allow him to do that.

There are a lot of talented guys in the NFL, lots of talented guys come out of the draft every year...what separates the great players from the average and busts are the ones who spend the most time studying film and honing their craft...Mayfield has some real soul searching to do this offseason...if comes even remotely next year like this year, the NFL will swallow him its just how it is.

Thats an excuse. If that makes you feel better about it, I am not going to say anymore.

yeah, sure - that has no bearing on the Qb success

I also find it telling you keep bringing up BAKER literally in a thread titled ODELL. SMH. Keep you agenda to yourself

I hope at some point we see the OBJ we expected to see when we traded for him. But at this point, I wouldn't be horribly upset if we moved him.

Are we in any cap problem? Why would you trade on of the best Wr's in the league?

Because you are using everything to excuse him, including bashing OBJ

hahahahahaha you bash baker on every thread on this board (even when the title is ODELL) and I am the one making excuses???? Honestly, just admit your trolling at this point.

Odell has been a little above average this year as far as NFL WR go. Compared to his STANDARDS he has been pathetic.

Lets see, you want to hold Baker to the standards of Marino, Manning and Brady and are chastising him for a bad year in his second year....BUT the ALl world WR who has put up similar numbers to T. Pryor did who was a converted QB and in jail right nowj falls off a cliff, its not his fault...…

No one, NO ONE on this board said Baker was a HOF QB.

Everyone, EVERYONE on this board says Odell is a HOF talent WR. So why cant he produce like one and catch a damn ball on 3rd down?

J/C

Literally VIDEO after VIDEO of Odell dropping balls on key plays....

its not something knew to him

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=odell+drops+bakers+pass&FORM=HDRSC3

I certainly agree that the exit of Zeitler was a mistake. I think that goes without saying. Where we disagree is that it seems you believe somehow the interior OL is more important in pass protection.

I don't have the stats, but what has stood out the most to me is the pressure allowed by both of our OT's. While I would certainly not consider or say that Robinson is a good LT, all you have to do is look at the performance of our OL in the two games Robinson was out to see the stark contrast.

There's a reason NFL OT's get paid so much more than other OL positions. I don't think opinions change the value NFL teams place on OT's.

Our tackles haven’t been good enough. Bottom line.

I see you are seriously questioning the hands of one of the all time great hands receiver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLlDunVJKy0

Greg Robinson has 3 sacks allowed per PFF

Hubbard 5 sacks allowed per PFF

Both committed more penalties than sacks, and I think they deserve criticism for that. For not protecting the QB I think people are being unfair.

OL can improve in pass protection but they are far from being a major problem.

You need to run out and see this ASAP

To be fair though, it wouldn't matter if we had Joe Thomas clones playing both tackle positions.

Baker REFUSES to step UP into the pocket, when he slids left or right, it takes away the ability of the tackles to push guys wide and outside, our tackles are no where near as bad as Mayfield has made them look this year.

Mayfield won't step up in the pocket because he can't see over the line.

I really wished Garret Gilbert would have gotten a shot in the Steelers game, I think we would have won. Gilbert is a big boy at 6'4 223 pounds. He is a pocket passer and he will step up in the pocket and throw a ball with authority unlike Mayfield.

Just a small preview, but Gilbert looks the part of an NFL QB. Look how easily he can see over his line, look at how he doesn't panic when he has guys around him.

The best thing that could happen to the Browns this year is for Mayfield to get benched or put out of the game somehow so Gilbert can play...all of a sudden OBJ and and Landry will start tearing it...all of suddens balls won't be late no more, balls won't be thrown behind them no more, and OBJ will get those deep balls in 1v1 match ups.

Of course we won't get that lucky for Gilbert to be able to play..

Once again, reading is not your friend. I never said he couldn't catch, I said he drops balls in big moments. IDC how many 1 handers he can grab in warmups, when there are footsteps and its a big play, his lack of focus isn't there, and he drops balls. Focus and catching ability are two different things that can cause a player to drop a ball. I never said he didn't have catching ability. But keep on keeping on. Left to right, top to bottom, dictionary for the bigger words when you get stuck.

Just a thought but maybe Odell should practice catching the ball with two hands more before the games

Jc

I’m under the belief that our offensive guys thought we’d be able to just show up and out-talent teams and we didn’t put the time in together .. our preparation and urgency and work ethic have to improve collectively if we want different outcomes next year

100% agree.

The problem is even if they do all that stuff it won't guarantee success or improvement. We now have huge question marks at coach and QB and we won't know the answer to those until next season starts playing out (assuming Freddie sticks around). Based on what I've seen I don't have a lot of confidence that Freddie will improve. I'm not sure about Baker. I will say this again...regardless of coaching, scheme, players around you...franchise QBs find a way to make winning plays when it matters most. Baker has had so many opportunities to make game winning plays late and fails way more than successful. He's not a winner.

We are in Jarad Goff territory with Baker...which is perfectly fine if we have good coaching, playcalling, and system. Baker can be the Jarad Goff of last year and lead this team to a Super Bowl but the other parts have to be functioning perfectly.

Does anyone expect that to happen under Freddie? I'd be nervous about that. Mark my words...you go into next year with Freddie as coach and it will be another wasted season.

No.

I've seen no evidence that he's growing as a HC as the season drags along into the annual traditional of meaningless football in December.

It's the same game day mistakes, the same inane answers during pressers, he doubles down defiantly on his dumb decision making (end of half against Seattle, the t-shirt, etc.), taking a penalty to make it 4th & 16 instead of 4th & 11 because the ST unit ran out which speaks to him not being 1 or steps ahead and a lack of communication on the sideline, losing twice to 3rd string QBs, the list goes on.

Some sign of improvement in his role as a HC would give me some shred of hope, but I just do not see it right now.

This is absolutely the case. Baker even admitted as much recently.

Many Dawgs here also felt the same way. Who needs to show up for voluntary practices to learn and get your timing down in a new scheme when you can just out-talent everybody?

Heck, why bother wasting your time learning the playbook, when you can post flashy videos on Instagram instead?

I certainly won't disagree with that. But there are things to consider.

We have the same OT's we had when we won 5 out of our 8 games in the second half of last season.

We have the same OT's we had when Baker set the NFL rookie QB TD record.

I'm an OL guy. Always have been. I understand the importance of having good OT's

But if I'm building a team and I'm looking at the facts I stated above, the OT's may not have been my highest priority. We are in our second season under Dorsey. There's still work to do.

What would have been your highest priority? ,... not looking for a debate, just curious as to what u would have considered our biggest weakness ....

The OTs weren't good last year either...they are just worse this year because FK wants to run an offense that they cannot block-for.

Dorsey really screwed this up...he may have gotten away with not prioritizing the OTS had he left the interior OL intact...he did not...he chose not to. He made a gamble and lost big...that's on him. He hired FK who seems to have gone rogue after being a 'let's go with what works' kind of guy. He needs to reign that in or move on.

Hubbard was still trash when won those games, but we at least had a TE that could block and help him out. JD has completely botched that position grouping, and it has showed. Also, when you get rid of KZ, a guard who was able to hid and help out Hubbard a lot last year as he was that good, that hurts as well. If you don't think getting rid of KZ was going to expose Hubbard, then maybe JD needs a new job.

GR last year played ALOT better than he is this year. Same name, same guy, different player. Thats been the story of his career so far, hes a big letdown for his potential and draft status. Hes a backup quality OT.

For someone who I think if fairly intelligent, I don't see why you think last year has anything to consider about this year. What does their performance about last mean? Nothing. It has no bearing on this year or what they are doing now, or the fact that even though they played decently at times last year, that the GMs job is to do one thing - improve every position he can. I give you that the way he handled Robinson was the right way - give him a 1 year prove it again deal. No problems with that. But to completely negate the fact that Hubbard stinks, and not try to improve that spot - was criminal. Especially when you got rid of any TE that would have helped him a little.

Players should be judge for their production first. Our Tackles gave 8 sacks, which is not a bad number, so pointing at them for the main reason of our lack of production is not fair.

We also have the 10th best run offense in the league, which I tend to associate with line quality.

Our tackles have showed some indiscipline ( 8 penalties for Hubbard, and 6 for Robinson) which they must improve, but even so considering the team numbers its not that bad.

QB play and capacity to read D's play a vital role on the OL play, so does the huddle command and making sure everybody is lined up properly.

IMHO, OL has played much better than our QB, and I think that is indisputable.

Last year we were better because we played rubbish teams and bad defenses,and Baker didn't have to take risks and win games.

I think that is quite evident now.

Well you're asking mine.

First that's not what I was addressing. As I stated, we did very well in the W/L column during the second half of the season. Baker set the single season record for TD passes for a rookie NFL QB. So from a big picture standpoint, I can understand getting OBJ. I can see where they felt the OT's were "adequate" to continued production.

We actually ranked very low on the D side of the ball so I understand the need to make major investments in the DL as well.

Now to actually state what I saw as our biggest weakness, I would say both the OT's and DL. FS was another huge weakness.

Now as to what I would have done to solve the OT problem I really can't say. The FA market was way overpriced and not a lot of viable options. Our first pick in the 2019 draft was #46 so at that juncture you most likely won't be finding a huge upgrade at LT. At that juncture it would have been a crap shoot.

So knowing what a big weakness is and having the ability to solve the problem are two different things.

I've always been a trenches guy and the OL is a huge part of the success of any O. I think you had a pretty good idea of my answer when you asked the question.

Head Coach and Backup QB.

Who would you have signed or drafted to improve the Positions? What price would you have paid for a modest upgrade?

And it seems that you are missing something here. You ALWAYS review the season to see what your needs are. You look at the performance of your current roster. That's what determines your needs to address during the off season.

That's what a player did last year has to do with going into next year.

Very few things are indisputable.. sacks are only one metric in determining how an OL is performing... and some OLs are much better at run blocking than pass blocking so saying being good at one is a sign of "quality" at the other isn't always true.

Getting people into the right position is THEIR job, not the QBs... Baker spends time on damn near every snap getting people to move around to the right position.

Frequently this year our playcalling has looked erratic and had no rhythm to it.... to start the season we were getting to the LOS extremely late due to slow play calling.. at times the blocking has been extremely suspect... Baker has looked confused at times and had some obvious mis-communications with receivers...

I do not agree that it's indisputable that the OL has outperformed Baker, both have had issues at times that, coupled with some bizarre playcalling, has led to this offense never really finding a sustainable rhythm.

How many pressures and missed blocks have they given up?

How many yards does Chubb and Hunt have after contact? You realize he gets hit ALOT behind the LOS and still gets 2-3 yards right? Chubb and Hunt will make the line look better than they are as far as rush offense goes.

Actually you can look at pressures and hits on a QB as well in regards to how well your pass blocking is. It's not a tell all by any means as Baker seems to move around in the pocket well to minimize those things.

I think learning an entirely new system going into the season created some confusion and contributed getting to the line late.

And I understand what people say about creating an identity on O. But at the same time being predictable is never a good thing either.

And when said new O involves leaving your Oline out to dry while running your receivers downfield, that's an additional strain on the line.


As I've said before. I don't think the Oline is bad. They are all at least NFL backup quality. They belong on NFL rosters, and they'd be at least competing for a starting spot and most NFL rosters.
But they're not good enough for what we're doing here. We need the line to be dominant in order to execute the pass-happy O that Kitchens wants to run, and they need to be dominant while we continue to go along Baker's path of development.

wut?

Really...?...rubbish teams?

Our OL certainly isn't the caliber to execute the long passing game. But still, you have to make some of those attempts to keep the opposing teams D honest.

But I think fans saying that's the O we're trying to run base that more on emotion than reality. Would I like to see us run more? Yes I would. But there are D's we don't match up so well against in the run game either.

I guess what I'm saying is we are smack dab in the middle of the league in rushing attempts. To me that doesn't indicate some pass happy team that the fans seem to think they see.

Sometimes perception is everything even when it's actually not.

I talked about this with Vers once and he agreed. Its not HOW much we are running with this offense, its WHEN that is the problem.

We will run 15 times by half time, then run 6 times in a 1 score game in the second half. that give the illusion we ran the ball effectively and we were somewhat balanced, but we were not in reality. I am seeing a team that gets away from the run when we should be utilizing it in key moments

terrible quote by the media

j/c...

This. There are several oft-repeated gripes this season (passing 2-3 consecutive times in short yardage situations, apparently not knowing you can run it twice in a row, emptying the backfield on 3rd down, etc).

What's with the goofy hat and a hoodie?

Bill Bellichick should try that look.

It could only improve his fashion skills.

Did you watch Hubbard last week/ The guy was a joke. He didn't slow up little Watt even a little bit.

Problem gotta be Freddy and the O-line.

Odell has been a big dissapointment to me. Baker has bounced several off Odell's hands. A couple for INTs. I think he tries to hard to get on Sportcenter with one handed catches which he usually drops. I would trade him in a minute for a couple of good O-linemen.

How can OBJ be a disappointment when we have such a bad QB?

And how many sacks has Hubbard allowed?

Stop using other players to make excuses for Baker.

Or, perhaps you should stop using Baker to make excuses for other players.

I have a thought...( dont ask it hurts ) maybe Freddie Is drawing up such strange plays and routes that it makes it really difficult for receiver and QB to be on the same page. On top of QB being a rookie and Oline play. Baker has the tools to be a great QB. I think he is in a very bad coaching situation.

OBJ is doing fine, what are you talking about. He is a great Wr just like Jarvis.

If you say so...

I know we use a different scale, but this is super-well-behaved-OBJ, considering the situation. The season is far worse than any could have predicted both team-wise and for him individually and so I would've expected more along the lines of a revival of the OBJ vs kicking net rivalry.

j/c

I don't care if Odell stays or goes...unfortunately I cannot unwind the trade that brought him here.

However, what I WOULD do is sit down with him and explain to him what his offseason SHOULD look like (expectations) and I'd tell him DIRECTLY and in great detail what his OTAs and TC will look like (demands).

This part of our circus needs to end or move on.

This offseason should (MUST) be completely opposite of last year's.

You can't improve on perfection.

Agreed. We need more substance, and not as much style.

Build up the O-line, maybe get a good all-around tight end in there, and most of all-- stress the importance of practice, teamwork, camaraderie, etc. This team plays too much as individuals and not enough as a team.

You cannot expect to just do your own thing all off-season, show up, and dominate at this level. It does not happen.

"We just go, if you’re here, you get better. If you’re not, you don’t." - Andy Reid

You cannot "demand" that a player attends OTAs. They are 100% voluntary in the CBA.

Correct...and the speed limit on the highways around me is never greater than 70.

Agree on Jarvis but Odell notso much. Rumors out of Berea is Odell is not running good routes and not always where he should be.

And spreading unsubstantiated rumors is a favorite pass time of many on Dawgtalkers.

The comments and opinions about Odell's lack of attention-to-detail and discipline are much greater in number outside the confines of this particular website than they are inside this website.

Look up Jake Burns articles...OBJ's route running is absolutely an issue.

Landry hasn't been perfect either - but better than Odell by a long shot. He ran the wrong end-of-route Sunday that resulted in the game-ending INT. The coaching of this team is woeful at best.

If you have to sit down with him and tell him, it's already a lost cause.

So now it's Jake Burns opinion you decide to bring up?

Quick synopsis of what I see:
Last year at this time, this was Baker's team he had this enthusiasm that spread to all.

What I have seen is that Landry and OBJ have taken over the team on O that is. It is no longer Baker's team. They talk to Baker to tell Kitchens this and that during games.

If you note Higgins is not catching any passes, Baker and him had this connection and it has been withdrawn...not by Baker.

If you notice when Landry or OBJ score a TD Baker comes running in to join the fun and last year his celebrations were electric...now he comes running up to the TWO and joins in and I've noticed the two totally ignore Baker...like what are you doing here this is our Party not yours.

If any of you are wondering what happened from last year to this how come its so different...It no longer is Bakers team where he would play naturally and produce. Now he must play Landry OBJ game and sorry the O sucks compared with last years. Well that is my story and I'm sticking too it.

jmho back to work...

Well said ... I’ve said it a few places, but the addition of OBJ has led to the subtraction of Baker’s swag

Really? Blaming Baker's woes on the addition of a great talent is something that would only be created on Dawgtalkers.

Well...you are moving the goal posts again.

#1 - No one on this board is absolving Baker of his own issues...he's got them for sure. A few loons on this board think he should be replaced by a backup QB.

#1a - The operative word above is talent. He has all the talent of any WR - maybe ever. But his play this year has come no where near expectations. That's not just a rumor on this website.

Maybe you should double check what I was responding to.

Ummm...ok...in my last response I quoted you for the context of my post. Not sure what more you want me to do there.

As to the quote above re: swag, you may be spot on about that.

Your dislike for Baker eeks in your posts whether you know it or not. You wish so much so that he is a failure....lol smh

If you do not see something then it does not exist....so must we bring our discussions down to your ignorance??? Cause if you were not there that TREE did not make a sound as it fell down.

I see it just because you do not, then it must be Baker blinded fans making excuses. Open your eyes and before you blabbler about others being unable to accept your fact that Baker is just average at best QB. Take a look and observe Baker in control of the O last year and this year Landry/OBJ have taken control. Least you can do is look at a recent TD to Landry or OBJ and look at the celebration...you might see what I mean. But ok Baker sucks we should get a new QB

Yeah I'm not bothered by his attitude at all I don't think it is cancerous or anything.

I simply love Landry. OBJ as a WR has disappointed me although he has served as a distraction for defenses making other open. Not having Njoku also has had a large effect on our O he was going to have a ALL PRO season as that middle has been a place to attack. But OBJ seems to not fight for balls. Drop a lot of passes that he could catch and yes, him and Baker do not have that connection - what I thought was OK I was totally wrong, He should have been here 24/7 in preseason making a strong connection with Baker and the lack of that has shown. Like the 70+ bomb Baker threw. OBJ didn't know he could go full speed from beginning to end and make a connection.

But much more. Without a doubt I feel the O is those two Landry/OBJ possibly even the Huddle. Its just not the same as last year where it was Baker's O and he was in total command as a rookie. It even came up in a Sports journalist article...no sorry I don't have it just remember reading it...either from a link here or on the Browns website. That Landry talked to Baker to communicate to Kitchens about this and that. I see it in the face of Baker's. I thought at first maybe his Soph. season or his newly wed homelife??? But I am very sure he does not have full control of the O. He has to take it over and not worry about hurting the respect he has for those 2.

jmho

You obviously haven't been reading the board much lately. I've been giving Baker a lot of credit for his being more mature. For him handling himself in front of the media better. For the improvement in his play lately and cutting down on his mistakes on the field.

But I guess in your haste you just jump to the same conclusions you always do.

That anyone who points out when he's having problems must certainly hate him.



No, I think he's been improving as of late in several ways. And I've posted that on this very board. But the first half of this season he was having a lot of problems and I pointed that out as well. It may seem like a strange concept to you, but that's called being objective.

But you just keep doing you tab.

You are right...I haven't been able to read Jack...lol sorry if I misspoke just a reaction to your maybe personal not me but the poster your quoted that had nothing to really do about what I had said which was the original quote.

I know you got a thick skin and could take it...

It sucks I haven't been around. Working hard - first time really since 2012 retirement.

But Doctors are like...you got to quit working or you will lose your leg....I'm like there has to be another solution cause Medical has taken all my freaking money, I got to work and pay all my bills without worries. So we made a compromise 2 15 minute breaks where I can elevate my legs. Huh??? you mean that is all and I won't lose my Legs to amputation? Right away they want me on the couch with legs elevated all day long.
Anyways. I enjoy working again - yes, hurts like heck but pain pills work. Got to get use to those Support Stockings toe to thigh...another compromise...once a week the thigh ones and other days the below the knees ones.

So excuse my snarly response. And really PO'd at our loss to the Steelers as we did not provide ANY pressure to a ROOKIE QB and let him be the hero!!! Also hated seeing Vernon disabled and then Thomas gone so we were down to guys that I did not see in our roster before #97, 91 and 94??? With the still grinning Douche on the sidelines Rudolf with the Steeler stroking by the NFL as he was the entire instigator of the terrible scene at the end of game #1 He gets NOTHING but a fine. The kicking Pouncey gets his sentence reduced from 3 to 2 games. Meanwhile Garrett's Indefinite suspension gets upheld...smh Larry's one game suspension for a little shove in the back is upheld...how biased can the NFL be.

makes me PO'd. Its so obvious they don't even try to hide it.

But our season is done...we might go 8-8 ??? or lose them all? 9-7 won't get us in the playoffs. Probably Buffalo and Titans are Wild card.

We need a left tackle...Saw a great one playing for OREGON last night - that kid is good keep an eye on him!!

Yeah, I have certainly been frustrated too. You know I'll be keeping an eye on those OT's. We could actually use both a RT and LT.

And the defense does look worse than I'd expected. But sometimes even after feeling that way I look at the scoreboard. The Rams only scored 20. In our loss to the Steelers they only scored 20. And giving only 16 up to the Bills was pretty good.

So while I'm certainly not happy with the D, in those two games where we only gave up 20 points, we should have won those games.

I sure wish to well and send you prayers in regards to your health. There's not nearly as many as of us old timers left on here. Sometimes by design.

Glad to see you posting.

Penei Sewell. He's been outstanding. Pro Football Focus recently named him Pac-12 Player of the Year.

Unfortunately, he's a sophomore and will not be eligible to enter the NFL draft until 2021.

He's definitely a great talent though.

Odel has several things working against him.

1. Too many drops on crucial passes. You know that Baker doesn't trust him nearly as much as Landry.

2. They consistently send him deep even though the o-line barely give Baker 2.5 seconds to throw the ball. That means all those stupid deep routes over 20 yards will never see odel because Baker doesn't have time to even throw to that route.

3. He has a tendency to start games this year a bit slow off the line. It's either a lack of focus or a lack of effort. It might be both.

How do you fix the problems? Very simple. Adjust the playbook to have him run shorter routes than 20 yards so Baker can have all his WRs available to throw to instead defenses ignoring Odel because they know know they will hit Baker faster than he can get the ball to him anyways.

In all but 2 games this year OBJ has averaged less than 10 yards per target. In seven of those games his average yards per target were under seven yards. Perception is one thing but reality is something all together different.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BeckOd00.htm

Obj on a on pace for 1200 yards
Landry 1300
They are on that pace with a second year quarterback
If you want to know how good that is look at joe Montana number.

I never looked at it that way, but it doesn't sound crazy. Maybe he feels pressure to please these guys and it leads to bad judgement. Who knows? Something ain't right is all I know.

odell is poison and showboat

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...the-future.html

ABOUT ODELL AND FREDDIE

CLEVELAND – Talking to myself about Odell Beckham Jr. and Freddie Kitchens:

Question: Did you hear how Odell sounds very vague about his future with the Browns.

Answer: Yes.

Q: Yes and what?

A: I’m not a huge Odell fan. But he’s right when he said he doesn’t know “what the future holds tomorrow.” It’s not just about Odell wanting to be with the Browns. The Browns have to decide if Odell is a good fit for them.

Q: Why ask that?

A: Is the problem with Odell being productive because of Freddie’s offense? Because of Baker Mayfield? Will Freddie be back next season? If not, who is the coach?

Q: Lots of questions, right?

A: Exactly. With four games left, I doubt any of those answers are apparent right now. It is obvious Beckham and the offense currently constructed are not made for each other. And the strength of this offense is the running backs. Not only are Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt terrific running the ball, they also can catch it.

Q: Don’t you think Freddie can do a better job getting Odell the ball?

A: Probably. But this should not be an Odell-centered offense, especially with the arrival of Hunt. I don’t care if Freddie is back next season or someone else is in charge of the offense. The Browns also have an excellent receiver in Jarvis Landry, one of my favorite players on the team.

Q: Where are you going with this stream of consciousness rambling?

A: I imagine Odell sees the same things. There’s Hunt. There’s Chubb. There’s Landry. Offensive coordinator Todd Monken answered a question about Odell not getting the ball more by mentioning those three players, then explaining the obvious: “We have only one football.”

Q: You just don’t like Odell.

A: I don’t know what to make of Odell. His physical talent is obvious. His production (only two TD catches) is baffling. To be fair, Odell has sent out a tweet insisting he never said he was unhappy in Cleveland.

Q: Your just tired of the drama.

A: Guilty as charged. Not just Odell... but with so much around this team. The loss to Pittsburgh has inflamed the endless speculation of Freddie’s future. Guys suspended. Every team has its share of drama, but these Browns are a triple-dose.

Q: What do you think Odell meant when he said, “I couldn’t sit here and tell you whether I’m going to be here, want to be here or don’t want to be here.”

A: It means he doesn’t know. Or if he wants out, he’s smart enough not to say it with four games left. But it’s obvious this has been a frustrating season for him. Cleveland.com’s Ellis Williams did a nice film study on Odell’s situation. He made the case the Browns just aren’t looking for him enough on passing plays.

Q: Isn’t Odell under contract for next season?

A: He signed a five-year, $90 million extension in the spring of 2018 with the New York Giants. Most of the $65 million guaranteed has already been paid. Cleveland.com’s Mary Kay Cabot reported only $2.75 million of his $14 million deal in 2020 is guaranteed. That makes him easier to trade... or even cut.

Q: This isn’t the last time we’ll hear about Odell and his feelings about 2020.

A: Very true. There are four games left. Suppose the Browns win them all and Odell sparkles? Or suppose the team stinks? When he said “who knows" about what will happen next year, he’s right about that... him... Freddie... and the Browns.

I posted in another thread, IMO, both Freddie and Odell on very thin ice when it comes to their future in Cleveland.

BUT WHY DOES HE SUCK?!?!?!?

Odell just punched his ticket out of Cleveland...

Browns might want to put him on IR so he can get that sports hernia taken care of.

...he is a cancer.

Anyone know who paid that?

IF this is true, I have a question: WHY THE HELL IS HE ON THE FIELD? He's an attention seeking diva AND he isn't at 100%? My Lord this franchise is stupid. SMH

I do believe the Browns are better off in the long run without him. Does what he wants in the off season, demands too much attention on and off the field during the season. Throw in the talk of him running questionable routes and you can pretty much seal it for me. He can go. Get something for him and move on. Browns still have enough weapons going forward.

Our offense, as it is now, can't take advantage of OBJ. But we could make strides in the off-season. Still, I wouldn't argue much if they got rid of him. We better become a ground and pound offense, though. And I don't want to give him away for peanuts, either.

We had Crazy Uncle Billy in our family. He said that talking to yourself wasn't a problem. It was when you started answering yourself that you had to worry.

"Most" is a relative term.

Not exactly sure but as part of his contract he got a $20M signing bonus which I believe NY paid out immediately to Odell but the Giants can break it out in increments annually on their books which looks like $4M over five years. I think we are responsible for the 2019 salary, which was $17M . So it seems like it is almost 50/50 at this point.

Someone else might be able to shed more light on this as it seems like there is some money left unaccounted for when he would only be a cap hit of $2.75M if cut in 2020.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/odell-beckham-jr-14421/

Report: Beckham has told Browns' opponents he wants out
https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/1900658

Odell Beckham Jr. has encouraged opposing players and coaches throughout the season to pry him loose from the Cleveland Browns, reports FOX Sports' Jay Glazer.

The Browns acquired Beckham from the New York Giants in March for a first-round pick, third-round pick, and safety Jabrill Peppers in a stunning blockbuster trade.

"I don't see this relationship ending well," said Glazer.

Beckham is struggling to find chemistry with quarterback Baker Mayfield during his first year with the Browns, hauling in just 57 catches on 103 targets for 805 yards and two touchdowns.

The three-time Pro Bowl receiver gave a vague response Thursday when asked if he wants to stick with the Browns next season.

"No one knows what the future holds tomorrow," he said. "I couldn’t tell you what's going to happen."

"In the offseason, everything will figure itself out," he added. "I feel like I've been here before, answering questions about the next team when I'm on a team already. That's just something I'm going to tune out for right now. Catch me in the offseason, and we'll see what happens. I don't know God's plan."

The receiver later clarified his message on Twitter, responding to speculation that he's unhappy in Cleveland.


Odell Beckham Jr
✔
@obj
Ok😑😑😑... I NEVER said I was not happy in Cleveland, just like everyone else I’m hopeful for better results. Period. Next story plzz 😭 ...

The Browns haven't lived up to the lofty expectations that followed Beckham to northeast Ohio, and they sit out of the playoffs at 5-7 entering Week 14.

Beckham is reportedly expected to undergo offseason surgery for a sports hernia that's contributed to his underwhelming play this year.

The 27-year-old is signed through 2023, but the Browns would only absorb a $2.75-million cap hit if they trade or release him this offseason, according to Spotrac.

Jay Glazer is probably one of the most reliable sources out there. Not good.

Good, trade him. Didn't particularly like the trade in the first place. He's to much of a diva.

Who knows if this rumour is true or not. It won't materialize till February or March so it's hard to say. If it is true and OBJ gets traded the return will not be as much as we have up. We gave up Jabrill Peppers (and quality young player on a rookie contract) and a first round pick for OBJ. I would be shocked if we got more than that in return for him. Talk about a mismanaging assets.

I hope the rumor is not true and OBJ comes back in 2020 healthy and time with the QB under his belt ready to go.

I have noticed that peoples's opinions of Peppers have gone up since he left.

He was "OK" here, and OK in NY. He's nothing special.

Oh yea OBJ had 2 Catches for 39 Yards but I still think he will be fine next season ...

Part of me wants to give it a year of work/study/chemistry ... and the other part wants to just say adios

People's opinion of Pepper went up when coaches finally stopped having him line up 30 yards away from the LOS.

j/c

The way people spread rumors around here like they're facts remind me of a bunch of old ladies after a PTA meeting.

Trade him to Dallas for any 2 of their starting OL...does Jerry say no?

he`s hurt...pass

I wish we did have OBJ. He's a selfish player that only cares about himself and his stats. I think Baker would be more willing to spread the ball more if it wasn't for OBJ.

Watched the game with 3 friends, and a son of 1 of the friends while we skinned, quartered, boned, and processed a deer. Mentioned the 'sports hernia' Odell had. The son asked what a sports hernia was.

My reply was "A hernia you get playing sports."

If we honestly do trade OBJ.
..one scenario does make sense. We trade him to the Jets for SS Jamal Adams and a draft pick in the offseason. Sam Darnold needs weapons, and Jamal Adams is supposedly irate with NY shopping him.

If we could swing that deal I’d do it in a heartbeat, but I don’t think it’d be enough to get Adams

That explains a lot...hope we see him with us next season and get the real OBJ!
jmho

keep him 2500 yards has better numbers then terryll owens and cris carter.
point 2 landry the leading reception leader ever at this stage of his career is the getting help.
3 the browns lost both games last year this year with obj they split.

Talent-starved for two decades, Browns must try to make it work with Odell Beckham Jr.

https://beaconjournal.com/sports/2019120...dell-beckham-jr

CLEVELAND — Now is not the time for the Browns to make a knee-jerk reaction and give up on the best receiver of the expansion era.

It is time to start deciding how to fix the team and organizational flaws — of which there are many — that have frustrated the best receiver of the expansion era.

Drama follows Odell Beckham Jr., whether it’s watches or visors or clown shoes or dropped passes or complaints about failing to get playmakers the ball. But he doesn’t belong in the “cancer in the locker room” category. Beckham has some valid beefs. His passion for winning is what the Browns need more of, even if it does come with a few too many “look at me” moments.

Plus, he’s 27 years old. The potential of an offense led by Baker Mayfield, Beckham and Jarvis Landry is too great to give up on Beckham after one season. Especially when he confirmed following Sunday’s 27-19 victory over the Cincinnati Bengals at FirstEnergy Stadium that he’s been playing with a sports hernia since training camp.

As misguided as Mayfield was when he criticized how the Browns training staff handled Beckham’s injury — a sentiment that should not have aired publicly and prompted Mayfield to issue an apology on Twitter — it made one thing clear: Mayfield has Beckham’s back and wants to continue playing with him. Mayfield, too, is tantalized by what the Browns’ offensive attack could become, next season and beyond.

That might require firing coach Freddie Kitchens or forcing him to make staff changes, abandon a reported game plan-by-committee approach and dramatically improve sideline operations and decision-making.

In Game 13, the Browns (6-7) showed little to no offensive progress. In the first half, the Bengals (1-12) ran a professional-looking offense before they started to implode with Browns-like personal fouls and questionable play calls. The Browns blundered about as usual, throwing when they had running backs Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt facing the league’s worst run-defense. The Browns’ best-designed play of the game didn’t come until 3:16 left, a 34-yard catch and run by Landry.

It’s no wonder Beckham, who caught two passes for 39 yards, is frustrated. And yet playing with a hernia that he said prevents him from running until Friday each week, Beckham has caught 59 passes for 844 yards and two touchdowns. Considering the injury and its limitations, it’s understandable why he’s not a primary red-zone target.

But General Manager John Dorsey has a chance to repair the relationship with Beckham. It will involve Beckham undergoing surgery if it’s necessary or getting healthy if it’s not, finding three new starters for the offensive line so Mayfield has time to look downfield, hiring a quarterbacks coach who can help Mayfield progress, not regress, and fix the previously mentioned offensive structure and play-calling issues.

Many will be tough calls. It sounds like a to-do list virtually impossible to fulfill. But any respected NFL franchise with the right leadership could make huge inroads on those in one offseason.

The Browns could take the easy way out. If after the season they decide to trade or release Beckham and they do it before March 20 (per Spotrac.com), they’ll owe him $2.75 million in guaranteed money. If Beckham is dealt, the team that acquires him will be on the hook for $60 million due in salary and bonuses from 2020-2023, which could make a trade difficult.

Neither of those options would be a smart business decision. The Browns gave up a first-round pick and safety Jabrill Peppers in the March trade with the New York Giants for Beckham. Receivers with the awe-inspiring skills of the three-time Pro Bowler aren’t that easily found. Especially by a franchise that could have drafted Ohio State product Michael Thomas, a two-time Pro Bowler for the New Orleans Saints, in the second round in 2016, but instead tabbed Emmanuel Ogbah, now a backup defensive end for the Kansas City Chiefs.

Beckham might seem like a disruptive force, but we don’t know how his teammates feel about him. He hasn’t had a Dennis Northcutt-like moment that cost the Browns a game.

Letting Beckham go seems like a quick fix. But it could cause as much friction between the players and the coaches/front office as it alleviates. Giving up on Beckham would serve more as an indictment of the continually dysfunctional Browns franchise and its ineptly run offense.

I think FK will have a short menu to swallow if kept. Yesterday should have been glorious for the run with our backs. Just lousy with passing overall instead. I think Dorsey needs to address our sidelines this offseason and add better linemen.

Hard to watch us struggle so badly. We looked lost on offense from the start. Our D is losing ground it seems.

Also am I the only who noticed our line (for the most part) provided a nice pocket for Baker...unfortunately the connections downfield and to OBJ, were still mostly off.

This is now what 3 seasons in a row where OBJ has been injured?

He got run down by a white Linebacker I've never even heard of in the open field.....frankly it's amazing that he has 800+ yards being that slow.

This year is such a mess.....the offensive scheme is a disaster, the route combo's are a hot mess. The passing game just never looks in rythym, Odell has been hurt, Callaway jettisoned, NJoku our half the year, Higgins????....Baker has like 5-7 just flat out drops that turned into INT's and that's not including that horse crap with Njoku yesterday.



All that and they are 6-7 about to play the Cardinals and Bengals again.


Say what you want to about the expectations.....7-9 and 8-8 in back to back years.....IS progress.

Dorsey.

Is anyone ready to start saying Dorsey is failing or do we still want that statue of him built?

I mean no GM seems to have been setup to succeed like he was and he's not doing so swell, is he?

tHe RoStEr TuRnOvEr, ThO.

I had a sports hernia and a torn groin. It takes a least a year to get back to normal.

I know the pain and you can tell he has the same issues that other people have from that.

I give him props for playing through it. It is extremely painful.. especially when you are making cuts.

When was the last time we had 2 1,000 yard WR's and a 1,000 yard RB?

Statistically, there is no question it will happen this year.

Chubb has 1291 yards, with 3 games to go. He is at almost 100 yards/game. That's amazing.

Hunt has played 5 games, and has 302 yards rushing. That would equate to almost 1000 yards rushing over a 16 game schedule.

Jarvis needs 5 yards for 1000. He is averaging 14.4 yards/catch ..... which is, by far, his career high.

Odell has 844 yards. He would need to average 52 yards/game to get his 1000.

Jarvis is definitely having a career year.

It's unfortunate his "strong hands" disappear when he's trying to catch passes beyond 2 yards.

This is OBJ's worst year (probably) excluding injuries.

No.

From 1-31 to possibly 15-17 yeah let's run that guy out of town.

OBJ has this year 105 targets and 844 yards, that is roughly 8 yards per target...

Why are people worried about OBJ, I don't get it.

And yet I think we all feel it could be so much better. I say we blow the top off next year. And I think we do it with Freddie.

How r the wizards doing this year ....

Your hero was so bad he couldn’t even get a job in this sport and u wanna make fun of me for KJ ... yup, that’s pretty intelligent ... *L* ...

Hey I know ... let’s do the only thing u understand about football and do some analytics on their numbers ... lets start with W/L % ... let me know what u find ..

Ummmmm, the team is winning on talent alone despite Freddie's insane play calls.

On like 16 carries all year

j/c...

Freddie's comments come on the heels of Jay Glazer's report of Odell wanting out and now here is this. Not sure how this will ultimately play out...

It's over. Finally. Get him out of here immediately. The guy is toxic and not a team player, ship him off.

Yeah, I’m already tired of the distraction he has brought ... whether intentional or not

j/c

And people wonder why we can't have nice things.

The dude in your sig or OBJ ... I thought Lerner bringing in policy was the worst thing that could happen ... this dudes making policy look competent .. *L*

J/C

And people wonder why we can't have nice things.

Chubb leads the league in rushing attempts.

Practice makes perfect.

Peyton and Marvin Harrison practiced endlessly.
John Unitas and Raymond Berry same thing.

Odell is in charge of his own body. If he was hurt. Or, had a hernia it is up to him to get answers. If he wants a second opinion it is all on him.

He missed a lot of practice time. You don't come to a new team with a second year quarterback and first year head coach and expect chemistry.

You make chemistry. If he is all about winning then practice. Instead he seems to be all about whining.

I don't know the guy. I know he as been injured a lot. Obviously he has talent.

The Browns made the deal to get Odell. It is up to Dorsey and the coaching staff to make this work.

Then why do so many people want the coach fired?

I'm on the fence about Freddie, as I hate cycling through coaches like underwear... but if I'm being honest Freddie has added plenty of ammo to the "fire him now" argument. He still hasn't completely solved the 3rd-and-short-empty-backfield-with-Chubb-on-the-sideline tendency, even if he's somewhat normalized his overall run-pass ratio. And when you add on the truly head-scratching individual playcalls (intentional false start to go for it on 4th and 15, draw on 4th and 9), the argument to toss out such a coach is at least somewhat believable.

We've fired coaches that have been here for a similar/same amount of time for much less.

A total lack of patience and they bought into the hype. They somehow felt an entire new coaching staff would magically come in and things would click on all cylinders with new systems on both sides of the ball.

I think Freddie has done enough to get himself fired... it has nothing to do with expectations, he just adds almost nothing.

Again, expecting a running backs coach elevated to Head Coach to not have bumps is just ignorant. I cannot imagine a scenario where a professional would elevate someone 2 or 3 levels above all of their previous experience and not expect growing pains.

I honestly fail to see anything special in Freddie, but I trust Dorsey.

There are both good reasons to fire him and good reasons to keep him, IMHO.

I dont have a problem with GROWING pains, the problem is you have to GROW after those pains. That's the entire point, right? he's not growing, each week is something new with this team, there is no discipline or structure. Freddie says one thing and does another. Hes not learning or growing. Hes getting worse each week seems.

Daryl Ruiter said on the radio yesterday that if he talked to his bosses the way he's heard players talk to Kitchens this year, he'd be fired.

Not sure there is a lot of respect there.

I said it in an earlier thread that the players don't seem to have much respect for Freddie. That's why there is no discipline and the play and effort isn't getting any better. Freddie seems like a nice guy and at this point a good positional coach but as a HC he is in over his head.

That - or maybe people watch games every Sunday and don't see a HC who gets it. They don't see a consistent offense that gives players a chance to succeed. They see the same issues that have been going on from the 1st game of the season and there is no progress. Maybe they see 2 elite RB's and we run the ball 6 times int the second half vs Pit and the warning bells ring L.O.U.D. ... maybe they see us play Cinci who have one of the worst rush defenses in the NFL and we come out throwing. They see a talented team that lost crucial games that an average other HC/play caller would have won. . . . and that's without the other discontent and disrespect issues we now hear about.

I am not saying Freddie has to go .... I am saying Freddie has to show me something each week before the end of the season. Because losing games BECAUSE of him and winning game IN-SPITE of him is very very troubling - and it's happening.

This is the problem with having a 'buddy buddy' type of coach. Lack of respect which ends up with a lack of discipline and ultimately the coach losing control of the team. It can take months, sometimes years (Rex Ryan) but it almost always ends up happening.

I heard the same thing yesterday.

He also mentioned, that since the Randall returned after allegedly getting benched for arguing over not practicing outside b/c of the cold, that since his return, all practices have been indoors and with the doors closed.

Apparently, they used to leave the doors open to bring in some cold weather.

There's a lot that's happened this season that points to a complete lack of respect for Kitchens.

There's a reason Joe Thomas and Andrew Hawkins mentioned on their podcast they both believe Freddie will be gone after this year --- too much talent on this team to continue to waste on hoping a guy can learn on the job. They also cited other issues.

Freddie Kitchens is like when the Cavs had David Blatt. Can't give a kid with his temp permit a Ferrari and not expect him to crash it.

Fortunately, the Browns finally have expectations and rightfully so. Unfortunately, John Dorsey chose the wrong guy to lead the team.

Is their reason because Haslam? If so, then that would put them right up there with the talking heads that lazily report on the Browns ("Browns could do this because... Browns").

I need to start listening to that podcast.

More positive press for the Browns!

After Baker accused the Browns training staff of mishandling Odell, Jaelen Strong took to Twitter....

(There's more if anybody reads his Twitter timeline, some language not suitable for posting).

No. Relates to Kitchens. Lack of respect from players, throwing players under bus, not practicing what he preaches, etc...

Joe Thomas starts out thinking he'll get another season and changes his mind for the reasons they outline on the podcast.

ThomaHawk episode #102: Week 13 Recap, T-Shirt Fiasco

Joe Thomas is my favorite Brown since the return ... he's got to be close to top for everyone right? Class guy - articulate and engaging. There's NOTHING I've seen or heard to suggest the dude is into rumors or the "it's being reported by other reporters that ..." thing. I hadn't heard him say this - but I think you can probably book it.

Oobernoober .... I think this sort of speculation on the Haslams is uncalled for and the sort of thing that gets repeated when there's no basis for it. I was down on the Haslam's but since the appointment of Dorsey they have been "model" owners and kept the heck away from Football decisions.

I tried to make it clear I didn't know. I did NOT intend to suggest that I knew anything, or was asserting anything. My apologies if I wasn't clear.

That said, it is TOTALLY called for to speculate on Haslam in this way. If there's anything he's established in his short time as owner, it's his itchy trigger finger and tendency to meddle.

For clarification, I do not mean to imply Joe Thomas has any inside info. This was just the conclusion he and Hawkins came to after discussing the season as it has played out, the state of the team and all that has gone into it.

If true, that is a total joke and lends itself to send both Randall and Kitchens packing (among other reasons.)

I'd almost say it's hard to believe, but you never know with this team.

Practicing in the cold, and especially the elements is crucial this time of year. Ever notice when the Patriots play in the cold/elements, they are almost always much more prepared for it than their opponent? Browns vs Patriots earlier this year is an excellent example. Belichick is notorious for practicing in those conditions, whenever the opportunity presents itself, and it shows up whenever they play a game in inclement weather.

Also, I didn't mean to gloss over the lack of respect for Freddie that sequence implies. That's an even bigger issue here.

The Browns brought too many personalities into the fray without the leadership to get them to buy in.

I think it doesn’t take a professional to see that our players crap on Kitchens. They don’t respect him as a coach and it’s a ship without a captain.

Sure, they might “like” him, but they know he’s got no clout

Randall's first tweet after returning to practice following his suspension. Seems happy about that indoor practice...

Also, here is Daryl Ruiter on his podcast discussing the change to close the doors to the practice field house and the Randall situation. Begins at the 24:55 mark through the 26:15 mark ( if interested in listening). P.S. To your point, they mention the Patriots and their practice habits.

https://923thefan.radio.com/articles/cleveland-browns-podcast-about-odell-beckham-jr

New Year's housecleaning again. Not sure I would have interest trying to "happy on up" some of these guys. Do your job. Lost track of the thread here, but suddenly we are awash in imagined drama. Football, please. And better ball at that.

Can't wait to see the new and improved game plan this week.

Yes, you do.
EVERY Browns fan needs to subscribe.

I think your last sentence has more meaning than most understand.

Baker has clout with the FO/fans.
Odell has clout with the FO/fans.

and etc. etc.

The team I believe likes Freddie, he is a good dude. By all accounts. But the fact is, the players know the score. They know he was a RB coach a little more than a year ago. They know he has a short leash, and they know things are not going well. They know he is in over his head.

He has no clout (Freddie) because well - hes never really earned any now has he?

That was an interesting and enlightening listen.

I see it as there being two issues here:

1) Discipline and having control over the team
2) Adapting to inclement weather. Cold adaptation is important this time of year in football, and even other sports (thinking October baseball here.) Teams that are used to practicing and playing in it have a distinct advantage in the cold over teams that are used to warm weather or dome stadiums.

I think Freddie isn't Readdie to be head coach.... I'm not knocking the guy.. He seems like the kinda guy you'd like to sit down and have a beer with.

The question I have is this, Can he improve and learn from the mistakes? And if Dorsey keeps him and it doesn't work out, will we have lost the edge with the talent?

Talent is fleeting.. You get a window and that's it.

A year ago, Freddie was RB coach and also Associate head coach.

Prior to that, he was QB coach, RB coach, and TE coach for the Cardinals. Bruce Arians was the Head Coach in Arizona, and he was his own OC, but Freddie was ... according to Arians .... a coordinator in waiting.

Bruce Arians preparing Freddie Kitchens to be offensive coordinator
https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/3...ve-coordinator/

Freddie is not some guy who was a RB coach for a year and then became OC .... as many seem to imply.

Freddie has a long history of coaching ... but he has still taken a meteoric ascent from RB coach last year to HC this season. He's never been a full time OC - and never a HC before. Position coach to HC .... enormous gulf.

He literally was a RB coach, who became an OC for half a year, then a HC. That's a fact. To imply otherwise is well, just not true.

You can try to say whatever it is you want, or list all his other position titles - but the fact is, in 20 years, not a single person or team thought FK was good enough to be a OC other than Dorsey. And in 20 years, not a single person or team thought he was good enough to be a HC other than Dorsey.

Some people are not meant to be leaders. That's not a negative, and that's not say he is not a good RB, TE, or other position coach. Heck, he might very well be a great OC! But even then, there are guys that are just not HC material because they simply cannot LEAD the way it is needed.

Romeo Crennel, great DC. Wade Phillips, Great DC. Both pretty bad HC.

Bud Carson too. What I would like to add to your post is a decision has to be made about Freddie after the season. We can't waste another season to determine if Freddie will be a good HC. If the FO decides he will grow into the HC job and be good fine but if not we have to look elsewhere. The talent is here now and we will be adding to it in the offseason with the draft and FA. Remember how we wasted a season by keeping Eric Mangini one more year? We can't do that again. Prudent decisions will have to be made.

I was ok with giving Hue a second year - we really didn't have much talent, and I wanted to see what he could do to improve the guys we had. he didn't improve anyone.

FK is in a different boat. We don't need to improve right now, we need to win. I completely agree, that we shoudlnt be wasting years on FK learning the position of his duties, especially when we have no idea if he CAN learn them.

With this team and roster, we need(ed) a guy that could come in and get it done, not learn on the fly. Not waste a year. This entire year has been a waste, because not only did we not win enough, we literally have taken steps BACKWARDS. Guys getting suspended for seasons, guys threatening to kill reporters, guys fighting with media, guys getting threatened to get tossed out of games for their shoes, guys getting ejected for late hits and not showing up to practices, etc. etc.

There has not been a single positive thing outside of Nick Chubb about this football team. Frankly, I find it hard to even root for this year. We were the bad guys ladies and gents. We were the cheap shot artist and dirty players. That's what people want to continue?

Couldn't agree with you more Will. If a change is made I like McCarthy or Ron Rivera.

Bill Belichick went 5-11 in his 1st season in New England. They got worse on both offense and defense than the prior season in his 1st season. They committed 99 penalties. (compared to 101 committed by the Browns in the same season, our 2nd season back)

Sometimes it takes a coach (and staff) a season to get acclimated. We can give up after every head coach suffers difficulties .... and we have done so many times in the past .... or we can see what this team (and coach) becomes if we have a small amount of patience.

I often wonder if the worst thing that could have happened is for this team to have had some success, because it created unreasonable expectations.

I am willing to bet that Freddie will evaluate himself after this season, and will see things he needs to improve on. I suspect that he and Dorsey will go over areas he needs to address together. I also suspect that he will reach out to some of his mentors for advice. (Arians, Parcells, etc)

Man, people have him fired in his 1st season before it has ended. Of course, Browns fans wanted Belichick fired every season he was in Cleveland as well.

Will he, though? Based on what we're seeing and hearing from him, it seems he has difficulty in learning from mistakes.

I forgot he was a running backs coach. How the hell can you explain last weeks game from a former running backs coach. "We made adjustments at half time"

Nick Chubb only had 3 carries at halftime against the league's 32nd ranked rush defense.

Last week, after Nick Chubb ran for 57 yards down to the Bengals 3 yard line, Freddie goes empty set with Chubb and OBJ on the sideline, seemingly forgetting we just gashed the Bengals and have Kareem Hunt. Instead he calls a fade to Njoku, whom he had deemed 'not ready to play' the previous two weeks.

Light bulb finally comes on and Freddie calls a run to Hunt who runs it in for the score on the following play.

He seems to make things unnecessarily difficult.

After running the ball 6 times the whole of the 2nd half vs Pittsburgh. This (after 14 weeks) is a prime example of why I don't believe Freddie is improving or 'getting it' ... jmo

Maybe because he's a former QB....

j/c...

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns QB Baker Mayfield said he can't answer for WR Odell Beckham Jr. whether OBJ wants to be back in Cleveland next year: "There's all the rumors going around, but I have my conversations with him, and I know what we talk about. So I trust him wholeheartedly."

But Chubb leads the NFL in rushing attempts with 253 (Derrick Henry has 250). Could it have been Cincy was expecting us to run and the gameplan was to throw to keep them off balance and save Chubb? Sure, didn't work all that well, but he adjusted at half and we won. Isn't that all we ask of a head coach?

I'm not bashing anyone's opinion, but if we ran Chubb as often as people on this board would prefer, Chubb would have 350+ carries.

Once again, no one is complaining about the number of touches Chubb has on the year, its WHEN he is touching the ball.

7 carries in 3Q (second half of pitt, and 1Q of Cincy) for the leading rusher in the NFL, in a one score game and the 1st Q against he worst rush def in the NFL, is inexcusable....I would not try to defend that if I were you.

3rd and short and Freddie insists on going empty backfield. Not only are we not running the ball when it's a good time to run it, but we're also simplifying things for the offense, telling them we're not going to run it.

EXACTLY!

I don't mind throwing in on the 5 yard line, but have Chubb or Hunt in the backfield so AT LEAST to say "hey, we may run the ball"

Maybe it's because he is trying to develop the offense, and not just a running game.

As far as empty ... it gives the QB much easier reads.

Gives the D much easier reads too

MAJOR IMPROVEMENT here bro ... earlier in the year he’d of went empty all 3 or 4 plays ...

Wooooohooo ... FREDDIES GETTING READY ...

Well, you can really only do one of two things with the ball - run or pass. Seems silly to tell them exactly which one you are doing in a goal line situation.

If you like something out of an empty backfield, how 'bout getting to the line early with BOTH backs and splitting them out wide? Both guys are veritable threats and now you have the luxury of pre-snap reads before your QB decides.

In these empty situations, you can get the defense to declare what they are bringing. It makes for easier reads.

Heck, people were saying impeach President Trump the day he was elected.

It's just the narrow minded people in this twitter world.

I think that's probably part of it ... ALL season Kitchens has looked like he is calling plays that are too cute and trying to hard to outsmart the other team. . . gadgets and gimmicks and trying to score twice before half time when leading by more than 14 pts with 5 minutes on the clock .... calling draw plays on 4th and 9 ... when we had run 2 draw plays that same half already .... maybe that's what some want the HC to do? I prefer to make the other team stop what we do well - and if they show any ability to take away something THEN exploit the field / game where that leaves them weaker.

We adjusted to beat the 1 for 13 Cinci Bengals? I don't know that I put a lot of credit for that. Sorry. Adjusting to beat the Pats, Ravens, Seahawks ... mad props if that was the case. Not for beating teams like Miami and Cinci.

I normally agree with most things you say - and even on Kitchens I don't necessarily disagree but I am mightily worried at a startling lack of improvement and ability. That said -- on a short goal line play - empty back field plays for the Browns are plain stupid. In a compressed field with little depth to have to be worried about, having too many receivers running around does NOT help. Heck early in the season we had break down on how with the full length of the field in play our WR's were running routes too close together - GL and 4 or 5 WR's only makes that worse. AND if you really want that last option - send the RB on a short route after chipping the DE/Blitzing LB..... Zero problem passing, just not from an empty backfield.

Also .... develop the Run / Pass game during training and during the rest of the game - not when you are in prime scoring position.

I'm perplexed by the handling of our players' injuries this year.

We held out Higgins when he said he was ready and then Higgins held himself out. We held out Njoku while he said he was ready. Randall gets hurt during the week...Robinson comes in on Mon/Tue with a concussion...and the icing on the cake?

We are playing OBJ with a freakin' sports hernia on top of him not knowing where to line up and running routes like a 5th Rd rookie.

He's a terrific athlete and CAN BE a dominant receiver, but 75-80% of OBJ right now is NOT better than 100% of Higgins...let alone Higgins + Njoku if the issue is spreading around the ball.

We aren't going to the playoffs and even if we did, OBJ won't be much help and is only going to feel worse as the season progresses with that injury. Shut him down...get the surgery...heal up...and hit the ground running next year.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the argument is for keeping him in right now. Maybe we're pushing for playoffs "Jim Carrey Dumb and Dumber style", but I don't see the downside to shutting him down early to prep him for next year. If he's definitely getting the surgery, sooner will be better than later for his and the team's long-term.

Players always want to play. That's not how such things are determined. Each team has a medical staff that determines when a player is ready to come back. The coaching staff depends on that medical staff and not the player.

And often they will determine that an injury will not get worse by playing (Like Ogunjobi last year) and it becomes a matter of being able to play with the pain.

You are 100% correct in this, however I recall Njoku saying he was released to play from the medical staff, and coaching said they wanted to give him another week. Same with Randall, I thought. Maybe I am mistaken.

I'm sure that OBJ has some bonus incentives around 1k yards and he will play until he gets those incentives

I do know he wasn't activated until right before he started. I'm not sure on the release by the medical staff. In some cases it's a matter of strength and conditioning needed before returning. In the specific case of Njoku I really can't say.

They designated him to return, and then activated him, as you said, right before the last game.

He was out most of the season, and I am sure he had/has a lot to learn about the offense. He also probably had to get back into game shape. A player designated to return is allowed to practice for 2 weeks before either being activated, or places on season ending IR.

Here are OBJ's contract bonus incentives:

96 receptions ($500,000)
1,374 yards ($500,000)
12 TDs ($500,000)
$1M bonus for playoffs

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/odell-beckham-jr-14421/

That's where I'm at. Dorsey has to have a better feeling for what the mood is inside the building toward Freddie than any of us. If we roll up next year with Freddie, I will expect a lot of the snags to have been worked out. If we roll up next year without Freddie, I will be ok with that too as long as the replacement has a proven record of being better than Freddie in the areas where he has struggled.

Much like yourself, I'm not tied to Freddie in any way. At the same time I'm not about attacking the man on very limited actual facts we as fans have to base such things on. I'm not interested in unnamed sources, rumors and most Twitter feeds.

Jarvis Landry on Odell Beckham: He’s not trying to leave
https://sports.yahoo.com/jarvis-landry-odell-beckham-not-190505169

When Odell Beckham‘s arrived in Cleveland this offseason, he was able to team up with his former LSU teammate Jarvis Landry in the Browns receiving corps.

The partnership hasn’t led to the kind of on-field success that the Browns hoped to have this season and the last week has featured plenty of discussion about whether the tandem might be splitting up after this year. Beckham wouldn’t discuss a report that he might be looking to move on after last Sunday’s game, but Landry said he doesn’t believe Beckham is looking for a way out of Cleveland.

“It’s not even about trying to go somewhere else,” Landry said, via Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com. “For him, he’s a guy that comes to work every day. He’s a guy that’s playing through injuries. All the things you want out of a player. . . . He doesn’t want to leave and he’s not trying to leave.”

Beckham’s previous comments have been vaguer and another round of similar thoughts in the next few weeks won’t do much to quell speculation that another move could be coming in 2020.

Your last sentence is one of the big things for me. I'm certainly not pushing (in case it matters) for a HC change, but I also understand if Dorsey decides it's necessary. That said, they HAVE to have a clear upgrade waiting to step in. We can't do what we've almost always done in the past where we fire a coach and then start thinking about what we're going to do about the opening. There absolutely HAS to be a Grade A hire if we choose to change. I highly doubt McCarthy is it. Dude was there for the taking last year and everyone passed. Didn't the Jets pass on him to hire Gase? Yeah, that's doesn't sound like prime candidate material to me.

Rivera could be that guy. When all is said and done, he had some pretty good rosters, and his overall record wasn't all that great. On the surface, even he doesn't quite do it for me.

So far... Freddie has come out and said his relationship with OBJ is fine and OBJ wants to be here....

Mayfield has come out and said that he has talked to OBJ and that OBJ is fine and wants to be here....

Landry is OBJ's best friend and has come out and said that OBJ is fine and wants to be here....

Still waiting for OBJ to say, with some level of sincerity, that he is fine and really wants to be here....

A two touchdown, 150+ yd game might do it......for now.

Yeah, why would we want this? LOL

Mike McCarthy (American football)
Personal information
Head coaching record
Regular season: 125–77–2 (.618)
Postseason: 10–8 (.556)
Career: 135–85–2 (.613)

Not sure he is getting any of those this year...

All with a future HoF QB that had sat and developed for a season (or two?) before seeing real action. They never had a dream team, but they had all the major pieces in place to win a lot more games than they did.

And you left out another thing. Dude is unemployed... wasn't picked up by anyone. Was passed over for Gase.

Off topic, sorry....

McCarthy is most likely going to go where there is a stud young QB.

The Jets and Browns come to mind. Maybe Texans if they flop and fire O'Brien. Giants are also a possibility. I'd imagine one of these 4 teams could be the team for McCarthy.

The Jets had issues with McCarthy's staff. Gase was bringing in Gregg Williams. It was also said at one point McCarthy was only interested in the Jets job. So maybe he's still interested in working with Darnold and maybe the Jets will be a little lax on the coaches McCarthy wants to bring along.

The Jets and Browns still have coaches in their first year with the team. They may not get fired. However, Gase in my mind is definitely gone. Kitchens may remain. And Dorsey didn't seem too interested in McCarthy unless he just knew who he wanted all along...

With that said, I hope our coach is either Kitchens or McCarthy next year.

I don't think Gase is going anywhere.

I don't think the Jets can afford to keep him another year... and I'm not talking about money.

They're too cheap to pay him to leave and they had a nice little 4 game win streak the same time we did. Plus Darnold with mono. I think he'll get another year based on some of these extenuating circumstances. Should he? If I were a Jets fan I'd hope not. I think he's a train wreck, possibly worst coach in the league. But the Jets are a terrible run organization similar to our Browns. Poor ownership all the way down. Whatever they do, it will end up bad.

You should never hire someone as your HC that you're not willing to invest at least two seasons into.

That seems rather arbitrary.

Ideally you have good ownership in place that sets the tone of the organization and hires people consistent with that. If you have that, I think you can roll the dice that decisions will pan out because you know the people making the decisions are competent. If you have an organization like the Browns all decisions are a crapshoot. 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, does it really matter? If it looks like you got it wrong, you probably did. No amount of time is going to change that. And even then all you're doing is "hoping" it changes. It's a tough call especially when you're not confident in the people making the decisions.

I know you probably won't receive this message well, but I think what you are saying as a testament to what I refer to as a microwave society. Everything should happen right now. That's not the normal trajectory that things follow.

It has been hashed and rehashed about HC's who have had instant success and those who started off slowly. Some of the great ones started off slowly and some of those who had instant success have had trouble maintaining that success.

So yes, history dictates that time has most certainly played a huge part in success or the lack of it for many great HC's. Had they have not been given that time we would probably not even Remember who coaches like Chuck Knoll, Bill Walsh and even Bill Belicheck even are. So maybe that, "hoping it changes" isn't a bad idea. I would prefer to call it "giving it a chance to develop", but to each their own.

Your supposition would be that Haslam doesn't have confidence in Dorsey making those decisions. I mean that is what we're discussing, right? Whether they will stick with Freddie or not? So in order for Freddie to be fired, either Dorsey would have to be unwilling to give Freddie a second season or Halsam upstaging Dorsey's authority and overriding his GM.

You see, it's all about a person's perspective. Some people would see it as Dorsey being stubborn and unwilling to change his mistake in hiring Freddie. Others will see it as Dorsey having the patience to give this thing a chance to develop.

I've never been a fan of overreaction and making impulse decisions. I was raised by someone who taught me that in many cases patience pays dividends. I believe if you have a plan and have confidence in your decision making you stay true to your plan until such time as it has been given a fair chance to come to fruition.

If you don't have enough confidence in the man your hire as HC to give him a minimum of two seasons to put things together, you should hire someone you do have that confidence in.

The one overriding factor is that there's HUGE money in the NFL and a very impatient fan base as we all can see. It's a reason that both coaches and players often aren't given the time to develop the way they used to. It makes me wonder where the next Bill Walsh or Chuck Knoll will come from. Because in today's game they would never have been around long enough to reach their potential.

Now I'm not saying Freddie would ever be the next Bill Walsh. The problem is, we may never know if you cut him off at the knees after one season.

I want to see credit for the term "Microwave Society®" because I coined that phrase on the old boards.

I don't think it's about having results right now. It's about hiring the right people. If you know you didn't hire the correct or best coach after a year then you should move on. No sense in keeping someone for the sake of continuity.

I think too often teams will stick with the HC even when they know he's not the right one. I think the Jets know he's not the one. But they may stick with him because of the owner situation.

We shall see I guess.

I don't think anyone "knows" after one season.

And yet I gave you an entire list of those who started out early fast, and stayed fast their entire careers - Most of whom were HOF coaches, I see you failed to mention that in your post, weird.

Those guys also didn't have the roster talent that FK started with either. You see, the only reason we have won games this year, was on our talent. There is not a single game we have won where you can say "we out coached them" is there? Please, point out to that win for me.

Yet I can point to multiple games Pitts, NE, Balt, etc have won where their HC simply outcoached the other guy...funny thing is, the majority of those were against FK

Yeah, they were all everybody in year one. lmao

You act as though you're the only one who has a point here. You're not.

I'm sure they do. And by they I mean the team's front office.

I remember reading once something Banner said after he resigned from the Browns. Actually, I think he might have said it recently. I'll see if I can find it. He interviewed several front offices about head coaches and he said that most of them knew after a year but didn't fire the coach until 2-3 years later.

I'm on the fence with Kitchens, but I had a hunch Shurmur and Hue weren't the right guys.

I'd give Freddie another season, but I don't know what's going on behind closed doors.

Looks like he will be 0 for 4.

Heard an interview with Paul Finebaum on the radio today - man he could not have been more brutal about Freddie if he tried. Basically said he was the worst HC in the NFL this year ... it was funny because he wasn't mean, he was certainly brutal and it was impossible to say he was being unfair. Take that for what it's worth. Whenever I have heard PF talk football he normally seems uber well informed.

Tony Rizzo and Erin Goldhammer listener, eh?

All I know is what I see and we have one of the ELITE recievers in the game today, and a franchise Q.B. and FK made them mediocre players ...he should have been gone yesterday before he ruins the rest of the team for another 10 yrs. Its not personel just business.
J\C

Never Goldhammer who is a tool - but either 850AM or 97.5FM - depends on the day. Both via internet as I am down south. Did you hear that interview?

I really hope Bake ends up being our QB for the next decade or more but I think the jury is still out on Bake being a franchise QB.Kitchens isn't to blame for Bake not being accurate and making some poor decisions with his throws.

I did. Finebaum was on with Rizzo and Goldhammer on 850.

I can't stand either of them so much I can't help myself from listening at times!

I think someone lost sight of what, "you could make the case" means.

I enjoy listening to Rizzo, it's entertainment though, not deep sporting insight. Erin is has no talent, minimal sports knowledge and tries hard to be a copy of Skip Bayless - but fails miserably.

I find both Tony Rizzo and Aaron Goldhammer to be quite annoying, but nothing quite matches the creep factor of Goldhammer's live read of Pajamagram womens "nudie" pajamas which, he claims, will keep you both occupied well into the evening. Its cringe-worthy.

Had to stop listening to Rizzo and the idiot. I have a thirty minute drive into work in the mornings. I could drive the entire way and there wouldn't be one second of sports talk, even if there was a major story going on.

Ken Carmen and Bull & Fox are my go tos now. Both good shows.

As a reluctant longtime Finebaum listener, as much as he loves to stir the pot, he is spot on here.

Kitchens is an absolute JOKE.

I think Ken Carmen and Anthony Lima are hilarious. So is their sidekick/producer, Kenny Kidd. I also like Bull and Fox, if only because Bull is the only local sports talker who talks baseball.

Bull sounds like Fred Flinstone and Fox sounds like Wilma.

I really like Ken and Lima (he's a total smart ass) as well and Bull & Fox.

Rizzo and Goldhammer are so incredibly bad, I cant help myself but to listen. The interviews are terrible, Rizzo mailed it long ago and everything about Erin goes without saying. WKNR in genera is a complete dumpster fire.

I love that they can barely take calls anymore due to the fear of a prank caller calling out Rizz for beating his previous wife.

This is all for show.

If Jarvis, and Odell don’t want to play on the same team, we have a bigger problem.

dawg check

That's a special talent that's all too often underappreciated.

j/c...is fire Freddie on all threads, thought this was about ODELL?

My goodness FK been HC of the Browns not even a season and I'm reading he's done enough to be fired...lol amazing simply amazing.

Gosh forbid we get some consistency around here.

I Like Wilkes at DC and The O is coming along get a kick butt OL and we would be the best around!

jmho Leave the Coaches alone for ONCE!!!

j/k

Can't stand Aaron. I only listen until Grossi goes off. I know a lot of you don't like Grossi but I think he is spot on most of the time.

Where can I find some of these other stations. Some of the FM stations don't go out this far ( Sandusky )

Aaron is a tool.Not sur how he keeps his job. Dude needs to go back to Denver and help spnd Daddy's money.

I don't think Grossi is anywhere near spot on. He really has no idea what he's saying most the time.

I like Grossi - I don't think he knows more than many of the posters on this board, but I can happily listen to him. Like I said earlier about Rizzo - it's entertainment. I don't go to watch a Hollywood movie and expect Shakespear - I don't listen to the Really Big Show and expect amazing sport insights.

The other Cleveland sports talk station is FM 92.3 (The Fan). You can listen online here:

https://923thefan.radio.com/

Thanks Dave, I'll give it a try. Hammer is driving me crazy on RBS.

j/c...

Meanwhile, Perrriman, who looked good for us last year, had 3 tds today. The fk hiring and trade for Beckham, in hindsight, were not smart moves.

Their relationship is now bordering on bizarre.

Lmao

The guy wants to play with a QB that can throw the ball before he retires.

So he's playing for Jarvis Landry? What an odd thing to say.

It seems pretty evident that the players have quit on Kitchens.

He should start by catching the balls thrown to him.

Yeah, well that's not what he said. So there's that.

Great idea. Baker has improved his ability to loft it over their heads, but OBJ has some dropsy issues, and he also is slow coming out of the break on his routes at times. Saw one where Landry turned, caught the pass, and was tackled and OBJ hadn't turned for the catch yet. We need to get out of our own way. Hard to watch, from anyhow.

I like what he can do for us. Dialing it up without forcing BM to wait on it is another thing altogether.

Is there a way to listen to the fan on an app?

Radio.com app or stream with Alexa via radio.com. "Alexa! Play 92.3 The Fan in Cleveland!"

Radio.com App

Thank you! I have grown tired of Rizzo and Goldhammer.

So you are calling all the Baker's sailing passes an improvement? Right...

Mayfield doesn't have a track record for being scatter-armed, so I wonder what has changed, mechanics-wise, for Baker since last year. I wish the Browns (Lindley?) would do a video review of his overthrows to spot the mechanical malfunction that's causing them. Is he throwing off his back foot? Is it happening on plays where he doesn't have a clean enough pocket to step into-and-through his throw? Does it tend to happen when he is on the move and he's not taking the time to set his feet? Or is it psychological, with Baker being overly amped up in red zone situations, where a lot of his overthrows seem to happen? Whatever the problem, it needs to be fixed.

Baker lacks arm talent and needs a stable platform to throw. He's extremely inaccurate on the move and outside of the pocket, he is very good in the intermediate passes, and that is his game.

He's also not instinctive and he's slow processing.

He is a good WCO QB, but that requires excellent coaching to be effective.

just stahhhppppp with your nonsense. Its been proven over and over again his arm strength is just about a cannon. The dude threw a pass a few weeks ago 70+ yards in the air, the announcers where stunned. get off it.

From the combine, his speed his roughly the same has Colt Mccoy

His deep ball is ugly and inaccurate, he just does not have the arm talent, it shows on the number of Ints.

He is very good on the intermediate game, but just don't asking him to throw outside the numbers or deep balls.

Sorry, this just got me emotional.

Monty Python Penguin the offensive line for once!

I've been reading about the O-line on this board for 25 years! and all they ever seem to do is waste draft picks on the blasted O-Line,
and look up, The Best running, we've ever seen, is going on right now, and freaking Kendall Lamm is in there,
and a bunch of ex free agents form the O-line

and when they actually had a "real top guy" in Zeitler in there,
THEY GOT RID OF HIM

-----

I checked in here to say,

Somebody buy Odell a GPS for Christmas so he can FIND THE END ZONE!

Well, that should tell that OL is not that bad, its actually one of the best we have ever had.

Receivers are also the best we had in a long time.

That should tell you something....

Per Aditi Kinkhabwala on 92.3 The Fan this morning, Beckham also asked members of the Steelers to "come get him" when we played them 3 weeks ago.

https://twitter.com/SportsBoyTony/status/1206929548610359297?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Ship is sinking fast...

Dorsey has to step in and end this crap.

Yeah, the ship is WAY beyond FK’s grasp now

J/C

Our team last year - Come get some

Our team this year - Come get me

Enough said about Freddie and his failures. Get rid of him.

OBJ Says He's Committed To The Browns: "I'm Not Going Anywhere"
https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...here-140772349/

As someone that didn't want him, I still like hearing this comment. It could be for show, but if it's the truth, that means he hasn't given up on this team and city. Did he give up on the coach? That's a different discussion.

I'd like to think the guys are just feeling the pressure of coming up short. IMO, best case scenario, we were a 9 win team coming into the season. We're not too far off from that. The Broncos and Cardinals loses hurt, but every team loses to a bottom feeder during the season.

If you told me we'd be 3-1 in the division and going into week 16 with a chance to win more than 7 games, I would have taken it. Of course, it's not all good memories from this season. The schedule did us no favors early on and our entire secondary was out for a while. And I truly believe the Garrett incident hurt this team to their core. Just when they thought the team turned the corner and made a statement to the league, that happened and it split the locker room and brought all the wrong type of attention to the team, again.

I don't know the coaching answer and I don't know what to do with Baker, it's not uncommon for a head coach to stumble his rookie year and Drew Brees himself had a worse sophmore season (technically his 3rd but he only played one game as a rookie). Double down on the plan, draft some O-line, get some free agents, extend Schobert, get a hungry and humbled Garrett back and get to working on what went wrong, there's enough tape to learn from it all.

We did beat Buffalo, Pittsburgh & Baltimore and we were damn close to beating the Rams and Seahawks (and Pittsburgh the 2nd time and the Broncos too). Add in the three wins against the Jets, Phins and Bengals, that could have been a very good season had the ball bounced a different way or we didn't lose focus in certain moments.

Sure this season sucked, but I hope we can battle the Ravens and Bengals to finish strong. It's all we have to root for at this moment.

Like I read on Reddit.... Come Get Me sounds more like smack talk than anything.

As in:

"Oh hey [cuss word of choice], you think you can defend me? Come get me."

THATS what you say on the field.

They arent out there like on Gilligans Island: "Please rescue me"

Um, no. Anyone can watch the mic'd up and know thats not it.

Also, it would be really nice if Cleveland sports media could stop trolling our own teams. It just makes the whole city look bad.

Sports 101: You dont troll your own teams. You troll the enemy. MKC and her ilk are scum, or hit with the stupid stick.

So, Cleveland people, please start holding the media responsible for their stupidity, instead of blasting the players.

Media is the reflection of the Fans... remember the NBA finals and the Cavs....

Browns fans, IMO... while way too emotional and ridiculous, are generally fairly knowledgeable and passionate. And loyal... I'd argue to a fault.

Cleveland sports media folks are (with only 1 or 2 exceptions, IMO) lazy, not so much passionate as they are just permanently angry, and far too often are pretty uninformed.

So I would argue that while (local) media should normally be a reflection of the fans, Cleveland is a weird exception.

If you understand the relationship of Jarvis and Odell, this was a non issue to begin with.

We are fortunate to have highly competitive wide receivers, this is a good thing.

A dream for them

And our dream is for a team that we can actually be proud to follow

Bingo.