This article outlines some very concerning issues with Dorsey, but I disagree with the overall premise that Dorsey should be front and center during all that has gone on.

It is very rare that a GM comes out and addresses the media outside of a few times during the season. Reporters can complain all they want but not hearing from the GM isn't anything new.

Just to be clear, was Andy Reid hired before or after John Dorsey was with the chiefs?

A second thread discussing Dorsey's situation...my thoughts are the same...

Quote:

I've sat on the sidelines and read some of this BS without commenting...but this comment above attempts to paint a picture the author has no clue about.

device...do you really believe that Freddie was Dorsey's top pick for HC of the Browns?

Freddie was given a chance with the hopes he would become the HC some envisioned. That does not mean Freddie was the only choice the Browns were considering.

Honestly, Freddie could still prove to be the type of HC the Browns need to reach the ultimate goal, a Super Bowl victory. Based on the way the season has gone, the odds are "against Freddie", but those decisions are made by those in charge and not by a group of emotional Browns fans.

My take on the selection of Freddie as the Browns HC...the guy the Browns really wanted was not available when Freddie was named HC on Jan 12, 2019.

Freddie was the next best choice available to the Browns management & ownership at that time, Jan 12, 2019. Freddie may have been the "safest" choice with the hope he could become the Browns HC that ownership and management were looking for.

What happens after the end of this season will determine Dorsey's future with the Browns. Dorsey's ability to judge football talent has been good but his ability to judge coaching talent can be questioned....

...but, remember this, it may not have Dorsey alone who was responsible for hiring Freddie.

If the Browns ownership is looking for a "scapegoat", Dorsey is setup to be ownership's fall guy.

JMHO, but I believe the plan that the Browns ownership and management settled on in Jan 2019 was flexible enough to become a two year plan, with an option to get a second bite at the apple after the 2019 season.

Try to be patient for a few more weeks...

Clickbait. We are better and more talented than we have been since our return, period. In only two seasons.

Just hide & watch I guess, no other choices. I had higher hopes and drank way too much kool-aid, but I thought with obvious talent upgrade we would be better. Never expected FK to be this slow on his learning curve.

I will wait out the butt end of this season's latest disappointment. I want a much different, more successful next year. We have more trouble on the sidelines than I thought that we might.

Just mail the rest in?

I believe better when I see better. You are what your record says you are.

Talented, yes. Better, no. not until we have a winning season.

We will have more wins in the past two seasons than any two season stretch since 1993.

What? 2007 we had 10 wins, followed by 4.

Last year, we had 7 wins, followed by 6 as of now. Simple math says we’re down 1.

This is an absurdly low bar. Losing is losing. People have to higher standards, right?

Dorsey absolutely is and should be held accountable for his role in the current state of the franchise. It doesn't mean fire him, but criticism is certainly fair.

My guess is that the next time we hear from John Dorsey is when he's announcing the termination of Freddie Kitchens.

Whether Freddie is fired or not, there is usually a "end of season" press conference from the GM. It's a matter of whether the new HC search will be on the agenda.

Yeah, we’ll hear from Dorsey around January 5th or so

You are assuming we beat Balt and Cincy.

I don't think that's a given.

Right now we are 6-8. If we split, we are 7-9. We were 7-8-1 Last year. Which is a better record

If you take both seasons, we won 14 in 07-08. If we do what I just said - we are tied. With much more talent.

You are mistaken.

Heck, I’ll be surprised if we even split at this point. Cincy is playing better and we seem to be in full meltdown

When a mob starts to starve they will start to eat their own.

I'd think there has to be a small chance that Fred is a stopgap. Maybe? I suppose it's a possibility someone will be freed up that wasn't available at the end of last season. Fred was hired until that happens. Cant be TOO farfetched...

I fully support this statement

If we lose to Cincy, it will be the final nail in Freddie's coffin if it isn't there already.

Agree. And if you asked me where I thought the Browns could possibly be in a season and a half once we fired Hue ... 14 wins would be at the very top end of where I'd hope to be and I'm a perenial Browns optimist.

Now, having gone on a tear with GW last year and with the talent Dorsey acquired I had higher expectations by the start of this season. For sure some of that falls on Dorsey ... Not the least of which is hiring FK. However, I still have more faith in Dorsey than any other GM in recent history. . . . One of the biggest challenges for the organization to overcome is the losing tradition and culture .... Dorsey can't fix that by himself and he can't fix it in 16 months. Jmo

Yeah, I’d bet that JD and Haslam are at the very least contemplating the removal of FK ... an embarrassing loss to the Ravens or a loss to the Bengals would seal it

We won more games in each of the last two years than we did in the preceding 3 or 4 years COMBINED!!!

This year has been a massive failure and i mean MASSIVE ... but lets not re-write history and not give KJ credit where credit is due ... he’s brought in a heck of a lot of very very good football players ...

Our future rests on Bake ... as does KJ’s ... question is:who is bake ... last years stud or this years dud ... stay tuned to next year ...

Last year goes on GW record, not FK

If we lose 1 game out of the next year, we have done worse under Freddie with WAY more talent. That's not a good sign.

I think Bakes regression has a lot to do with Lindley as that's who is working with Bake on a day to day basis.

The gameplans don't help.

But, Freddie should see the passes and mechanics getting worse, and have made a move - He hasn't. That's on him.

I think that's not looking at this the right way. GW had a winning percentage of what??? This year what's FK winning percentage ??? We are already WAY behind. I can't speak to what winniny % the teams we beat this year vs last year is .... That'd be a consideration, but man we've had a weak schedule this year and laid egg after egg.

I think Vers nailed it with the one read QB take .... lets hope he was ether wrong or Bake learns how to read a D in the off season ... with that hopefully his accuracy and confidence come back ...

Right now U can’t really judge him ... u can see it in his eyes on the sidelines ... he’s a shell of his old self confidence wise ... regardless of anything and everything else ... if he can’t learn how to get past his first read he will never play well enough to get his confidence back ...

I agree for the most with you, but both FK and Baker had no problems taking all the credits last year...

That explains a lot of what happened this year, and why I don't think they are the solution.

Baker right now is a bad backup QB, and Freddie is just hated by all, so start cleaning house and fire FK and sign a good backup QB ASAP.

Superbowl MVP QB's have been benched for far less than what Baker did this year.

Build the team around proven balers i,e, Chubb and Jarvis.

Technically, Reid was first, but it was basically at the same time.

Reid was hired on Jan 4th, 2013.
Dorsey was hired on Jan 13th, 2013

Here is a potentially interesting read: https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article158155634.html

The Kitchens hire is a huge black mark on Dorsey’s resume. He put his balls on the table to get that deal done and it’s been an abject failure. Almost as concerning is how he brushed off any issues that the offensive line might have.

Dorsey has blame in the situation we are in but the expectations also wouldn’t have been so high if he didn’t build the roster in the way he did. Whiffing on the head coach needs to be remedied.

Quoted for accuracy.

That looks to be a year apart to me, with Dorsey getting there first.

That's a typo on my part... both were January 2013.
My bad.

J/C

I agree w/those who say FK is a huge failure by Dorsey. For him to listen to Baker THAT much and be that bold with a hire has turned into a disaster

i was just wondering because i didnt know if Dorsey brought in Reid, or who was responsible for the hire there. thanks for the article, btw. its still kind of not clear how what he was doing was enough to get canned?

i'd really like someone to break it down what went south there. i keep seeing some people imply reid and dorsey didnt really mesh and those sorts of things.

That would be where I place my bet, actually.
In the article, they talk about how their styles don't mesh.... I would not be surprised if that caused enough friction for Reid to drop an ultimatum of sorts. In the end, Reid got an extension the same day Dorsey was fired.

Baker needs to be better. No one is saying he doesn't need too. The problem is, Baker is not getting better. he is getting worse. That's on your coach, plain and simple.

all. our best 2 seasons on combined wins was back in 2001-2002 with Butch Davis

2001 - 7 wins 9 losses
2002 - 9 wins 7 losses

16-16.

...since the browns came back in 1999 of course...

all. our best 2 seasons on combined wins was back in 2001-2002 with Butch Davis

2001 - 7 wins 9 losses
2002 - 9 wins 7 losses

16-16.

Reading a defense post snap is something either one can learn to do or one can't. Many QB's with great arms never managed to do that. They have been casualties of not making it in this league for years.

I'm not saying that's the case with Mayfield. But it's not as easy as teaching it to someone. It has to be a natural thing they simply have the ability to do or they don't. Your mind has to have the ability to process a lot of information in a split second. It's a rare trait.

And often times it's why a QB with less actual physical gifts can do better than often times more gifted athletes at the position.

Eh... that's a gross oversimplification.

Can a teacher make you learn calculus faster than you're capable of? I don't think so.

Granted, it is the teacher's job to try to find a way of teaching something that resonates with an individual student, but not everyone is capable of learning calculus.

As for the getting worse... if the above is indeed what his problem is, then he likely is back there thinking too much right now because he isn't yet at the point where he inherently just KNOWS. It's his second season... that is actually kinda normal. Guys like Mahomes blowing the roof off places in their second season is out of the ordinary and while it is the hoped-for result, it shouldn't be the expectation.

Experience is that thing you get right after you needed it.

Sounds familiar....

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article158155634.html

Sources: Communication, management style were factors in Chiefs’ firing of Dorsey
By Terez A. Paylor
tpaylor@kcstar.com

June 25, 2017 03:40 PM


Nine key moments in the John Dorsey-Andy Reid era for the Chiefs

A list of significant events in the Andy Reid-John Dorsey era with the Kansas City Chiefs, which ended Thursday after four-plus years following Dorsey’s departure as general manager. By Blair Kerkhoff and Jeff Patterson
The Chiefs have compiled a 43-21 record the last four years thanks to the work of coach Andy Reid and general manager John Dorsey, all while publicly and privately painting a picture of internal harmony and teamwork.
They managed to stay unified and on message even during tough times, like the NFL’s tampering investigation into the free-agent signing of Jeremy Maclin that led to fines and the forfeiture of draft picks.
But behind the scenes, the Chiefs’ front office did not always run smoothly under Dorsey. Team chairman Clark Hunt’s decision to fire Dorsey was fueled, in part, by concerns about his internal communication and management styles, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the situation who spoke to The Star on condition of anonymity.
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As one of the sources said while describing how Dorsey had removed two front-office executives without much explanation: “John does stuff and doesn’t tell people why.” Another source said Dorsey’s management style “could wear on people.”
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A message left with Dorsey seeking comment for this story was not immediately returned.

Dorsey’s firing was announced Thursday, the same day Reid received a contract extension. Both men had a year left on their contracts and report separately, but directly to Hunt. That structure will remain when a new GM is hired.
While sources have consistently maintained that Reid and Dorsey worked well together — “You never got the impression they were sparring,” one source told The Star — the two also had different approaches to their jobs.

While Reid has a reputation for being structured and process-oriented, Dorsey was described by those who know both men as looser.
“He goes with the flow,” one source said of Dorsey.
That style didn’t always mesh in situations outside of Dorsey’s undeniable strengths, picking and evaluating players. The other areas Dorsey oversaw were contracts and salary cap management — and the Chiefs have been in cap trouble for a while — in addition to the general, day-to-day management of the team.

“He’s not a big disciplinarian or big on chain of command,” a source said, “so people did what they wanted.”
“It’s more about his management skills,” another source added.
For instance, the typically stable Chiefs also made waves this offseason when Dorsey released director of football administration Trip MacCracken and director of pro scouting Will Lewis. Each man had been with the team for at least four years, and not only were their dismissals surprising, there weren’t many answers to be found, even inside the organization.
“Those decisions were totally John’s,” a source said. “That’s the kind of stuff he does.”
Sources also critiqued Dorsey’s management style, noting that while he was often friendly and jovial, the same tongue-in-cheek manner he used to win over most people over eventually wore on others.

“It could rub people the wrong way at times,” a source said.
Dorsey still has fans inside the Chiefs organization. They cited his passion for the game, constant availability and eye for talent as respected strengths.
“Loved working for him,” one source said. “Great dude.”
“He was always great to us …,” another source added, “You hate to see something like this happen.”
Dorsey also has a number of supporters across the league, as an overwhelming amount of league sources who dealt with him on a regular basis — approaching a dozen — told The Star.
“He was always a guy that would listen, was a pro, good to work with,” one league source said.
“One of my favorite people in 20 years in the business,” another source said. “Honest and straightforward. Man of conviction. Was shocked and sad to see the news.”
Multiple sources also called Dorsey a friend on a personal level, noting that it was not unusual for him to call just to say “hello,” even when on vacation.
“A consummate pro’s pro in negotiations,” one league source said. “Always up front and straight, and a super talent and football evaluator.”
Other league sources agreed with that notion, adding that Dorsey’s standing as an evaluator of talent remains peerless.
“He is a dyed-in-the-wool scout, loves the element of watching college players, loves breaking down film,” said Andrew Brandt, who spent 10 years as a Green Bay Packers vice president alongside Dorsey and writes for TheMMQB.com. “That always seemed like that’s what he was most happy, and most comfortable, doing.”
It’s a trait that, communication and management issues aside, many league sources believe will be difficult for the Chiefs to replace, especially on the heels of the club losing Dorsey’s talented and respected right-hand man Chris Ballard to Indianapolis five months ago. Ballard is now the Colts’ GM.
“I loved him,” one league source said of Dorsey. “Blunt, honest and a great talent evaluator. Losing him and Ballard in one offseason is insane.”
Brandt said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Chiefs prioritized talent evaluation, along with leadership and communication, with their next hire. The Chiefs are already over the projected 2018 salary cap, but there’s a widely-held belief around the league that whatever cap issues they have can be rectified in a year or two.
“We have this traditional version of an NFL GM coming from a scouting background, like John — and that’s the most popular GM model,” Brandt said. “Then there are a few coming from more of my background, which is from the financial side, about business and cap contracts. The third model is one Andy had in Philly, which is coach/GM.
“To me, the real underappreciated trait you want from a GM is leadership and communication, because the GM will be coming from one of those backgrounds and will need to communicate seamlessly with what he’s not an expert at. Teams sometimes rush to sign an expert in one area while maybe not taking into account the necessity for communication in other areas.”

Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article158155634.html#storylink=cpy

j/c..

I wonder if Dorsey met with OBJ and asked that he put this story to bed if he truly wants to be here. If so, good on Dorsey. Those conversations need to be had. Eliminates one distraction for the time being.

I think more of it has to do with the "come get me" comments than anything. The media, and of course the spurned fan base following closely behind, thinks the only thing that could possibly mean is they want out of Cleveland.

I understand it stems from the "come get me" comment. OBJ also had a chance to put it to bed before and he made ambiguous statements such as, "I have no idea what the future holds" or "who knows where I'll be next year" which only added fuel to the fire.

OBJ was not scheduled to meet with media and felt the need to address this today instead of waiting until tomorrow at his regular media session, hence my comment/speculation on whether or not Dorsey may have met with him.

I suppose it could be perceived that way. Yet in actuality no player knows where they're going to be next year. A team can trade or cut a player any time they wish. Now we know OBJ isn't going to be cut. But none of us or him knows where he will be next year.

For a player to say he "knows" where he'll be next year is nothing more than a hypothesis.

The part I've found funny this entire time is the fact that I have NEVER heard "come get me" taken to mean "hey, I'd like to be where you are" except when a kid needs a ride from his mom.

USUALLY (in my times hearing guys say that), when a dude that is fired up is saying that to another guy, it's a challenge... you're calling that guy out and telling him to step up.

“I’ll fire Freddie if you sta. . .”

“Deal!”

Anyone who can't see that the offensive scheme, the coaching, the chemistry and Odells injury have all played a role to varying degrees to the regression of Baker Mayfield are trying to frame a narrative.

If I had to rank the issues with Mayfield I would list them.

1. Scheme/route concepts
2. coaching
3. chemistry
4. Mayfield struggles
4. Odell/Njoku injuries

1, 2, 3, are on John Dorsey.

An argument could be made for 4 and 5 as well.

Chemistry would be due to him and the coaching staff putting more emphasis on talent than players. Example would be AC starting over Higgins when he came back from suspension. This organization is drunk on talent, and don't really care about the TEAM building process as a whole. Also, its up to John to bring in talent yes, but its also up to John to bring in guys that have talent AND are willing to play and win as a team. Personality goes into the eval process of players for a reason. Dorsey lacks that part, or overlooks it for talent.

Mayfield struggles - I believe an feel it has to do a lot with John basically handing him the keys and wanting to make him the face of this team. He has been given too much slack for one, as well as given bad coaching (lindley and kitchens). Who hired those coaches?

Odell and Njoku Injuries...ehhhhhhhh, If your on the field your on the field. Njokue is healed and cleared, but cant get on the field, like Higgins. That's on FK, which in turn is on JD>

Baker's regression is Baker's to own. It's on him and nobody else. Scheme, OBJ's groin, Freddie's whatever-it-is that causes him to take a false start so he can go for it on 4th-16 can't explain Bakers tendency to miss high and behind. His accuracy has been suspect more often than not. He also did this last year, but not nearly as much. WRs have to reach back, down and jump up to catch his passes. Very rarely does Baker put a pass right on the hands so the receiver can turn and gain yac.
He's been more off than on in the accuracy department. He's also shown he can improve.

Vers called it earlier this year that most of Baker's issues can't be solved during the season. They will require at least 1 offseason of intense training to work through. I also don't think he can cure all of his ills in 1 off-season, but even if he can address 1 or 2, that's enough for me to continue building around him (while highlighting the running game... but for real this time).

You realize coaching matters right?

Bakers main attribute coming out of college was his accuracy. He could throw the ball on a dime. That doesn't change, unless your mechanics change, typically.

I would love someone like Bone or EO or Vers to break down some film from Baker last year to this year with his throwing mechanics this year. But I believe the change from last years QB coach to Lindley, has made a VERY big impact on his throwing and accuracy.

Coaching Matters. BIG TIME. To suggest it doesn't, is well.....wrong.

So who we getting this offseason?

Now you're trying to bring an ounce of common sense into the conversation. What are you thinking!?

Ya ... ok .... if Bake can’t read D’s thats on Freddie ... .. All of a sudden Bake is inaccurate as heck must be Freddies fault ....

Gimme a break bro ... U have FDS ... ....

Freddie’s stunk to high heavens but BAKE HAS HIS OWN ISSUES ... not everything’s Freddie’s fault ...

For GM, HC or QB ... *L* ...

Coaching does matter. But you can't coach a guy to put in the time in the off-season. I think it's pretty safe to say that Baker didn't work on the right things in the off-season. Vers brought up the "broom sweeper" comments regarding coaches helping him break down and improve his mechanics.

I have faith that he won't take the same approach this coming off-season. I think the humble pie he's had to eat this season will go a long way to him addressing his weaknesses once this season ends.

Coaching does matter, but I don't think a team of all the very best QB coaches would've been able to help him not sail passes in games this year. The things Baker has been struggling with are either out of his hands (scheme/playcall and/or offensive disorganization) or couldn't be remedied while the season is going on.

I'm guessing that the demand for his commercial endorsements has dwindled greatly.

The one thing I’veheard all year that really stuck out to me ... Bake said at some point ... “he didn’t think it would be this hard” .... that really stuck in my head ... hopefully he knows how hard it is now ...

He ends to learn to read D’s or were gonna be back in the same spot were used too ... needing a QB ...

GOOD LUCK BAKE!!!

Lord I hope so - and I also hope that when the endorsements come calling again, he says "no thanks"

Why? Players have free time (and should make as much money as possible). It's not like he's skipping practice to film commercials.

I think this year / season we've seen that maybe to be the best you can be as an NFL QB - doing the other stuff simply restricts or reduces your efforts at being QB. If Baker can't live a ridiculously lavish life on what he makes as a QB - then I'll happily be his financial advisor and show him how to make more $$$$ than these commercials are making him.

I honestly don't think the three or four days they took to film a batch of short commercials during the long offseason is what hampered his progress.

Hell, even if that was all he did during those days, it is the sort of thing that still fits very well into that June/July dead time and still leaves well more than enough time to study and work on things.

I think that it is far more likely that while it is his livelihood, it isn't his Life - it's still a day job - and he needs to figure out how to make it be THE important thing and still give the other things in life the time they deserve.

You and Cfrs might be 100% right - probably are .... I still prefer him to not do any commercials.

It's really a shame that these guys at the top of their sport can't put their ego aside and stay in their lane..

Dorsey seems to be a great guy for finding talent and getting deals done..

Reid is an exceptional coach..

Why guys like that can't just be happy doing what they do well is beyond me. It's happened here a few times, it's happened other places... guys who could be good coaches fail because they envision themselves as GMs as well.. and guys would could be good GMs fail because they try to exercise control over the coach..

Just do YOUR job.

My guess is that you don't want him to make commercials because when they come on and the team is terrible it makes you feel bad.

You are 100% right on that side affect - but I'm more concerned about the impact it might have on his preparedness as a QB. They do have down time - I'd prefer it was just that, down time. Chilling, relaxing, hanging with the wife.

There are internal factors that will be addressed after the season.

That is kind of "tin hat" my friend.

You hire who is available in any given year. I seriously doubt we hired Freddie intending to fire him to hire someone who will be available this year.

It was Dorseys job to hire a coach. Jimmy and wife stayed out of matters. They were involved only to be informed. If they had any real say, I think it was as a no veto.

I agree the decisions are to be made by the front office and team executives, not the media or fans. I haven't totally given up the idea of Freddie as our coach next season. Six weeks ago I thought there was no chance we would move on as some of the knee jerk crowd was hoping for. Now that it has gone deeper, it might happen. Might could possibly be probably.

As to the Ridnor thoughts, my attitude is the coach talks during the season. That is his platform. The GM talks in the off season. That is his platform.

I agree with the commercial thing.. Yes it's his choice and right.. Yes he makes money from them.

Let's look at it from another point of view.Take out the money factor.. Does making commercials give a person a feeling of self worth ?

Baker was a successful rookie..But success comes from winning on the field and winning big games and Championships... Baker done none of that.

Commercials blow up egos and make people believe they are greater than they are.. Just like all the hype..It did nothing for the team to be successful...

The commercials he made were stupid as hell..and his performance on the field since has been under desirable.

Put in the hard work like Lamar Jackson has been doing..The Ravens have gone 10-0 since the loss to the Browns.. The Browns have gone 4-6.

Baker isn't a super star stud QB.. He is mediocre at best..Work to win..do commercials when you deserve to be recognized as a winner.

I agree he didn't put in the time.

On numerous occasions I have pointed out why. I will again.

For a player entering the draft, they have a college season that starts in maybe late June and runs through bowl games. Then it is right in to the draft process. Training for the combine, the combine, private workouts, the draft, camps, more camps, the season. Those guys go basically 2 years with little time away from football.

Add in the guy got married last off season. Sorry, that takes time, especially if you have some money and have a large guest list. It just does. Lot's of time goes in to that. You don't just go down to the courthouse and get hitched. You have discussions about venues, invitations, rings, guest lists, catering, beverages, bridal/groom party gifts, cakes, fittings, more fittings, rehearsals, the day, the honeymoon, and all of those usually include some sort of meal to celebrate the occasion.

No doubt Baker gained some weight last off season. My hope is he gets back to a more chiseled look and look a little less like married man.

This off season will tell the tale on him.

Sorry my friend, you take it when you can. He is no different than you or in that regard. If some company wants to toss you $50,000 to pitch their A/C service, you or I, or him take it every time.

Agents also work for exposure and endorsements for their clients. They make more money doing that. It doesn't end with contract negotiations, see you in 4 years.

I know you are still bummed since the Titans loss, but you aren't thinking clearly my friend. You take the money when you can. Only a fool doesn't.

Filming a few commercials isn't like acting in a play over 6 months. It's a few hours here, a few hours there.

Come on man....chin up. Don't make me come up there to counsel you, or slap you around a bit. I expect to see you at games next year.

If you don't renew, I always have a ticket or two with your name attached my friend.

Plus these commercials are filmed in the offseason

I know they are filmed then. Does anybody think they aren't?

Just adding my voice ...... I think the whole commercial thing is ridiculous. It's not like he's skipping out on practices to film them.

I wasn't inferring that you thought this. It was a statement to those who believe they are being done in season and distracting him. And I've seen comments by some who clearly think that's the situation.

Go ahead point out my name..It's Billy or DeisleDawg as most know..I don't know or care when the commercials are being done.. You want to know what i give more a [censored] about then a [censored] commercial.. It's the fact that Baker is over throwing..he's missing receivers and the team is losing..

Concentrate on winning football games.. But hey go make a commercial..maybe this team will keep having parades for totally sucking ...

King John was just waiting for Mike McCarthy or Ron Rivera to become available.

Psssst

Mike McCarthy was available last year.

Psssst

Mike McCarthy was on vacation last year.

Huh?

I don't know that your response jives with what I said. I didn't really bring up Feddie (although I know it was a Freddie thread).

To answer your question, yes, I think Kitchens was Dorsey's top pick for HC. And he obviously wasn't the only choice being considered.

I'll admit I felt the same as many others and after last season I didn't want Kitchens to go anywhere. He and Mayfield seemed magical together. The only way you can assure Kitchens doesn't go anywhere is make him the HC.

I loved the idea. But I also assumed Dorsey knew Kitchens was ready to be a HC. He interviewed the candidates, I did not. Watching this season unfold, I'd say Kitchens was not ready, and Dorsey has made a fair amount of mistakes. Your thoughts?

He criticized the players when he got here. From his first draft he has traded away a 2nd rd selection and his 5th rd selection. He's released a 4th rd selection who was taken with risk and that pick failed. Now unless you tell me the players he actually wanted were not there so he drafted Corbett and Avery, did he actually draft real players and trade them away?

I love how the narrative changes with Dorsey and somehow he's invincible. He had the pick of the draft, most likely a quarterback and chose Baker. A lot of fans didn't want him. And still even more fans have soured on Baker and some want him gone. Ward and Chubb have become pro bowlers. A lot of people were disappointed in Ward this year. Chubb looks like a homerun. Corbett is gone. Chad Thomas seems to be a question mark, but he's had a couple nice games. Callaway is gone. Avery is gone.

King John, as some call him, traded for Jarvis Landry. People want to hitch their wagon to that acquisition, ok. He traded for Randall who was benched for a game because he sat out practice due to lack of heaters. Randall is also rumored to be on his way out. He traded for OBJ who many seem disappointed in. Many seem disappointed with Olivier Vernon as well. I know these aren't all his transactions, but he also hired a HC who obviously wasn't ready.

I may not know what I'm talking about, but where in all this do you see a plan? What has Dorsey done that you can say he has instilled confidence that he knows what he's doing and is not failing at his job?

It's actually fascinating the amount of people who are still saying in John they trust. I'm not trying to get him ousted, but there are definitely things here that need to be monitored. I enjoyed last season's turn around and was excited to have Dorsey here, but this season has been an unmitigated disaster. If you feel otherwise I'd love an explanation.

And I'm fascinated with people that what Dorsey out... like we had any other GM that got Vernon, Landry,OBJ caliber players..

I forget, people here still hate Butch Davis too...

The only time things went well, there was a group here, because everyone knew Hue wasn't going to last as HC forever.
The only time things went well, let's see if I recall,
Hue, Gregg Williams, (forget the offensive coord),
Haley was here,
Al Saunders, and Ken Zampese, and somebody had special teams duties, doesn't matter,

But they had more people, So what about this,

----

Freddie comes back as Head coach, because continuity and all,
Wilks comes back as Def. Coord, but a young guy is also brought in as a "special assistant" or "consultant"

Somebody has to go, now I don't know what each guy does, but I do feel, there ain't No WAY, anyone can say this team has followed One STRATEGY since 2016, but Depodesta has been titled, "chief strategy officer" since about that time, .. the strategy has changed like 7 times, the whole freakin boats direction, in that time frame.

So Freddie as HC, Wilkes as DC, Monken still around in some role, maybe Monken can become "Chief Strategy officer" let DePodesta transition to a back seat advisory role.

But!
Hire Tom Coughlin as some role with the words "Game Preparation" in it,
let him do whatever, Todd Haley did, because

literally what did Todd Haley do in his time in Cleveland except be the Head coach in waiting: that didn't get hired as head coach but sent packing with the old one.

Then. Bring in a young apprentice on both the offensive, and defensive sides of the ball, in coach advisory roles, or game preparation roles, developing a stategy for upcoming opponents,

Then.

Don't get anybody in free agency! Focus on bringing the current team back, except for 2 positions of need.

Start a campaign, (which may include up to threatening to forfeit games on principle, if the NFL doesn't reinstate Myles Garrett by... IMMEDIATELY, including training camp.

Make a conscious effort to bring back all 3 tight ends and add serious potential upgrades to the tight end position for competition to make the starters better,

Make a conscious focus to bring in better options at the Safety position, free safety, and strong safety, to upgrade performance on the field at these positions.

Leave the offensive line alone
Leave the defensive line alone

Make it a focus to commit to development of all of the current cornerbacks on your team, except maybe Redwine, or other, but I'm talking about, Mitchell, Carrie, Ward, Greedy, and any other worthy vet.

Find Marvin Lewis, and hire him as a special assistant on game day, or game preparation,

Finally, add one good runningback to your mix, (named J.K. Dobbins) and keep Chubb, Hunt, and other coming back.

Then, (this may be one of the most important)

DON'T, ... Don't just automatically give a roster spot to whatever (never has been) role player you select in the draft in the 5th, 4th, 6th, 7th, and even 3rd round!!

Players like Greedy Williams this year, should have only gotten spot playing time for 1 or 2 years, learning behind the starter, in this case Mitchell,
Until they become good enough to clearly be a better option.

And that's one thing I don't understand from the current season, how did they not always leave Mitchell when he's more experienced and Greedy doesn't tackle as well, and ins't developed enough to be left on an island yet.

So, All the coaches back,
Tom Coughlin, and Marvin lewis hired as vice presidents of game preparation, (game week, and game day)

Bring in a young apprentice at offensive coaching, and one at defensive coaching,

Campaign to Reinstate Myles Garrett, up to threatening to just forfeit games, not take the field:

Upgrade the .. O-N-L-Y, the Tight End, and Safety positions in the off season.

Add one good runningback (named J.K. Dobbins) to go into the mix of current Rb,s

Conscious effort to bring current players back, including all the corners, and Hunt, and Higgins, etc.

leave the offensive and defensive lines alone,

don't automatically give roster spots or playing time to (never yet beens) selected in the 3rd-7th round of that rookie year.

Or:

Blow everything up, emphasis on the "everything" all the coaches, all the players, all the wideouts, all the big name free agent D linemen from last year, cut ties with Garrett, everything, everything right down to the studs of the floorboards,

(( They can upgrade the OL, and DL in the 2021< (the following years) > draft))!

j/c:

Imagine being someone who takes the stance that doing commercials in the offseason is a major factor in Mayfield's issues this season.

Chiefs, Ravens, Bills, Saints, Parade, < already beaten 2 of those. Hmm.

It's a symptom, not the entire issue.

Mayfield has admitted he didn't work hard enough. Instead, he spent his time doing a myriad of other things, including commercials. It speaks to his mindset and is something easy to point out in that regard.

Mayfield spent little to no time working on his craft.

How do you know how much time he spent?

I know it was reported that he and some of the receivers got together a few times in the off season, so they did spend time making your though of "no time" pure fabrication.

Just saying.

Quit stalking me.

I actually agree with you. I think it is a symptom. I think the first sign of this symptom was showed back in his rookie year when Hue asked Baker what is it that he's doing to perfect his craft? (ie comparing Tyrod Taylor being at the building first thing in the morning - and I can assume that Baker wasn't based on that convo). You're a rookie, and think a starting spot is just gonna be handed to you, but you're not even the 1st one in the building? #cmonson

Baker has the mindset and mental toughness to be great... but its not gonna come without effort. He needs to take some cliff notes from some of the greats. This video here had me in absolute aww.. I mean a QB who has been playing in the league for years... practicing like this... like wow. Reggie Bush's words are everything here too.

You say "actually agree" with you as if it was painful. LOL

Definitely not, lol. Just saying it as I know any opinion that has any connotation of talking bad against Baker gets frowned upon.

The guy has serious work he has to put in if he wants to be great.

The part in white is true. And proven. And needs addressing if the Browns are going to bounce back next year.

The part in yellow is pure conjecture. There is a enormous gulf between "not enough time" and "little to no time" - and you have no clue what he did or didn't do other than it clearly wasn't enough.

That would make sense, if well, it was a common problem for him. Your completing leaving out the fact that Baker was probably the most accurate QB coming out of his draft. He was extremely accurate last year, and efficient.

So what changed? The only answer is the coaching staff or Lindley directly, changing his style or mechanics.

Come on, Diam - think about what you just said.

I watched last year, baker go up to the line against cincy, read the defense - audibled out of a play, then he read the defense again, and put a guy in motion to call him in as a blocker - to run the play to perfection for a TD.

he read defenses last year. You don't just STOP doing that. He can read defenses, we watched it all last year. In fact, there were many many threads on how he looked liked a 5 year vet reading them.

If you accurate your accurate. The only thing that would effect his accuracy would be if he is getting coached to QB a different way. His mechanics, footwork, etc. I don't think its Freddie for that as hes not his QB coach. I think that's on Lindley. Who Freddie has hired, so well yeah, maybe it does fall on Freddie.

Baker has had issues. We are talking about a change in his accuracy and throwing mechanics. Could it all just be from happy feet? Possibly. But I think its more to do with his feet and mechanics. Im not the type of film guy that vers, bone, or others are - so I would like their input. But his throwing motions and feet just seem off to me. That doesn't just "change" overnight. Usually, that means hes being coached to change that. muscle memory is very strong, and you have to be coached and practiced to change it.

You know this. . . .

There is a great deal of smoke out there that Zampese was very, very good for Baker's development...and that Z and FK didn't mesh well. There is equal smoke out there that Lindley is not helping Baker and that Baker and Monken don't mesh well.

Yep.

What I find most hilarious, is that i have asked multiple people on this board to answer what about Freddie has he shown this year that deserves him another look, yet other than continuity, no one has answered. . . . .

I'll answer; nothing, unless you enjoy drama and some comedy.

But hey, were the foolish ones.....

Record doesnt even mean anything for me. Heck, Hue was 1-15 and i wanted to give him another year. I was mistaken for that and wanted him canned after year two, because he never showed any progress. Players were not developing, and bad decision after bad decision was being made.

Freddie has put a subpar record together so far, but its still better than what we had seen. The problem is, take the record aside, our guys have not developed, just about every player has regressed outside of Nick Chubb. We have been probably the most disrespectful and dirty team in the NFL, as well as being undisciplined and penalized more than anyone else.

Yeah, hes got a ton going for us - sign me up for year 2!

JC

"The Mayfields filmed 20 commercials over two days about 10 days before they were married."

Anyone who thinks that had anything to do with Baker's issues at QB must believe a clogged drain sunk the Titanic.

Ok, what did he do besides a few throwing sessions in LA? There's more circumstantial evidence that he did "little to nothing" then there is he "didn't do enough".

--His own coach told him to get away from football.
--He himself shot down working with a coach.
--He got married and honeymooned. These things take time and focus.
--He said he thought it was going to be easy.
--As recent as yesterday he was commenting on how important off season reps are i.e., he didn't realize it last year.
--He made commercials.

Other than you taking issue with my choice of words, if you can produce some evidence that would cause me to reword my take, I will gladly do it. Otherwise, I stand by my "conjecture". It's a message board. It's 95% opinion and conjecture.

I don't need evidence of anything. I don't have an axe to grind against Baker - and I am not trying to suggest he did more than X number of hours.

Unless you can show me how every other QB spent their time in the off season and document their hours studying, prepping, working out, throwing, leg work, mechanics etc .... which you absolutely can't - then your request Baker or me or anyone else to document Baker's time is just one more example of your angst and agenda.

Your the one making the claim he didnt put in work and spent all his time making commercials. Its on you to back that claim. If you cannot back that claim, its simply a claim and your opinion on the matter, and far from factual.

Baker sucks. That's not an axe. It's the truth. It doesn't mean he will always suck and I hope for all of our sakes he doesn't. But right now he does. Calling it like it is isn't an agenda or an axe or anything. The emotional attachment to a player who had a very big hand in the failure of this season is confusing to me.

You actually think I don't want Baker to be good? I'm a lifelong Browns fan who is way too emotionally attached to the success and failure of this team. My mood rises and falls with the results on Sundays.

There is no agenda against Baker. My agenda is against losing. And Baker is in the top 5 reasons for this failure of a season.

I'm drawing a conclusion by the bullets I mentioned above and the play and results on the field.

If you guys believe Mayfield put in the work or underestimated the amount of work that was needed, then we disagree.

Otherwise you're getting riled up over a choice of words.

U ain’t asked me yet ... I’ve got some answers ... go ahead, ask me ... i dare u ... *L* ...

Baker has regressed. He's played really poorly in games this year. He's played okay in some games this year too. Even in the games he's played well enough in - you and others have still tried to put the blame of the loss on Baker. To me that's an agenda. I don't know if it was you or another poster that even wrote that the Defense wasn't playing well because they didn't want to play for Baker ... that concept is also an agenda driven pile of steaming donkey poo.

Looking at why Baker has played badly - why he has regressed ... that's really more important than getting on a soap box and calling him a jerk, falsely claiming he put in little to no off-season work and attributing the Defenses performance to Baker. But that's just my opinion - and since this is an opinion based board I reckon I am just as justified in that opinion as you are to your agenda driven posts.

Please, it was an open question. What has Freddie Kitchens done this year to deserve another chance?

There is nothing to be argued about Baker, its about faith and believe.

Regarding his performance he was hands down the worst QB in the league, taking into consideration the OL, receivers and RB's he had to work with.

No sugar coating please.

U know how sensitive i am ... ...

I’ll be back but it won’t be til tonight ... check back in tomorrow ...

I have no clue how hard bake worked last off season ... NONE ...

I really hope he didn’t put any work in cause if he did it hurt way more than it helped ... I’d *LOL* but its to sad to be laughed at ...

Lets hope he learns to read D’s cause right now he stinks at it and its been the downfall of many QB’s even at his talent level ... come on bake, u can do this ...

This is why the Browns continue to fail. If the results aren't what we expect there's no other option but to move on. We don't analyze why we fail, we just know that if we fail we need to change.

You know Baker "isn't the guy."
You know Baker "isn't putting the work in."
You know Baker "isn't a winner."
You know Baker "talks too much."

That's not telling it how it is, that's an agenda.

There's a list of quarterbacks who sucked in their first two years and went on to have excellent careers. It starts with Drew Brees and ends with Steve Young.

I think with the proper coaching Baker will be just fine. He was too good his 1st season to just regress as badly as he did. Maybe it's coaching (best reason) or could it possibly be an injury no one is talking about? There was talk of an injury earlier in the year.

Maybe we will (I also believe in that) but maybe he wont... stupid is to risk it again this year.

With a viable backup QB we would be in the playoffs...

Kizer sucked and people had no problem
I loved Rosen but he sucked and I had no problem
DA had a great year and then he sucked and people had no problem
Hoyer had a great year and then he sucked and people had no problem

Nobody had OBJ,Landry, Chubb and Hunt, and nobody has ever sucked this much before..

Superbowl MVP's have been benched playing much better than Baker is doing.

Here's what I do know Peen. Many young QB's work with specialized QB coaches during the off season. I'll use Tom House as an example. Lamar Jackson worked with Joshua Harris as his personal QB coach.

When Baker was asked about working with a personal QB coach, He referred to them as "broom sweepers" and said he didn't need one and wasn't going to work with one.

This year he has come out and said he didn't know it was going to be this hard.

What we can all hope comes from this is that he's learned his lesson and follows the example of other young QB who understand the need to focus on their craft more intently and use every resource available to improve.

Rast, just to throw this out there, how good is Gilbert? He has the size and arm strength you look for and was good in College. I realize lot's of guys have the same qualities and are never more than backups in the pros but maybe we should at least take a longer look at him. Probably a long shot though.

I tend to agree - and did agree in the past with Hue ... but 2019 - Just my opinion and analysis - the bigger issue with this team this year is Freddie not Baker.

And while I think continuity is good / needed - it needs to be based on something OTHER than continuity for the sake of it. I need to see something/anything from Freddie to make me think he can be the guy next year and the 5 after that. I have not seen that. If anything I have seen over and over no improvement and the SAME fundamental flaws.

Baker also needs to show me why he might be the QB to hand the franchise on. He did - year 1. Accuracy, moxy, ability to place the ball where WR's could snag it but CB's couldn't. . . . This year it's a different story - but Baker has shown me the ability to make me think he can be that guy. He just needs to get back to last year's guy.

I think you are in a tiny tiny minority with that thought.

I think you're confusing the difference between being able to read a D pre snap and reading a D post snap. Defensive coaches often show one defense, such as man or zone pre snap then fall into the opposite D post snap.

Reading that post snap D is a special quality some QB's are never able to grasp. It takes processing things so very quickly. You see one thing before the ball is snapped and then something totally different happens. You have to recognize it, go through your progressions and find your target.

When a defense shows you man, you can see your best match ups before the ball is snapped. When all of that changes in an instant, that takes a great deal of mental process to digest and adjust to in a very short amount of time.

The speed with which a QB goes through his progressions also comes into play.

Those changes post snap also require the WRs to make the necessary adjustments in routes as well. You see, THEY need to read the D changes as well.

Perhaps, Baker is making the right read and his receivers are not.

Yet we often have wide open WR's that he doesn't see. To the point they are getting frustrated by it.

See, I find a lot of this confusing. So far I have seen people blame the WR's, the OL, Freddie, a lack of a quality TE, almost to the point of blaming everyone but Baker for the problems of Baker.

Baker is young and has the talent to be a great QB. But he refused to work with a private QB coach during the off season and the lack of doing so is showing. Hopefully he learned his lesson and will correct that during this off season. The potential is certainly there.

I've seen parents do the same thing with their children. Somehow when they get a D on their report card, it's the teachers fault, it's other kids distracting their child. They'll place the blame on everyone but their child.

Tiny minority in this forum, large majority if you consider the NFL...

No. Not at all. Not remotely so in any part of anything that has any credibility or sense.

What? That most of the NFL thinks any QB could do it a better job with the weapons we had?

That Baker is the worst QB in the league this year?

Not to add fuel to the fire, but one QBs off season work was documented....Lamar Jackson's. Here's a portion of the article.

*Disclaimer* I still believe Baker can and will be our franchise QB. This year was a learning moment.

From an ESPN article written back on April 17th, 2019.

Jackson has made a strong first impression on Ingram, who is coming from playing with the NFL's all-time leading passer.

"He's really mature, and his mind is definitely in the right places," Ingram said. "He wants to get here early, get in the film room [and] study. He's a hard worker, and he's just a good dude."

Jackson's commitment to putting in the work was considered a strength even before Baltimore drafted him with the final pick of last year's first round. He was around the facility so much that coach John Harbaugh described him as a "gym rat."

After last season's playoff loss to the Los Angeles Chargers, Jackson took the remainder of January to rest. Then, for the next two months, Jackson threw the ball five times a week in an effort to boost his 84.5 passer rating, which ranked 30th last season.

"Lamar is our quarterback. It's his team. We're following his lead," safety Tony Jefferson said. "We know how big of a leader he can be, and how special he can be on the football field. He's putting in the work, and that's the type of guy he is."

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post...ws-rave-reviews

j/c:

I though Bob Evans was the sausage guy?

None of that is an agenda. That's people being sensitive to a choice of words. I haven't asked for Baker to be benched. I haven't said he needs to be replaced. I actually said for all our sakes I hope he turns out to be the guy.

There are people on on here who are very sensitive to Baker criticism.

How could a good back up QB have taken us to the playoffs if Baker weren't benched? Things that make you go hmmmm.....

If you constantly talk about building the team for the long haul and not just this year and then fire your hand-picked coach after "just this year," you'd better expect some blowback.

Blowback isn't something you get from a lynch mob.

Nothing to do with sensitivity and I really don't care what people think about Baker. But saying you know Baker isn't the guy and he's not a winner only to follow it up that's there's no anti-Baker agenda. I simply don't believe you.

You're implying I want Baker to fail.

He currently is, but I don't.

I don't agree with that at all - and if this were indeed true, I think there are enough analysts breaking down the Browns that we would see it shown and broken down.

We have WR's running open on some plays - yes. Often - no.

When it happens does it get shown and examined (like when OBJ was open in the last game but Baker was locked on to Landry underneath?) ... yes. And that might create a false impression that it's happening all the time. Being at one of the games I certainly didn't see it happen much at all. I'd be interested to hear from others at more of the games.

Do I think Baker misses more open receivers than he should - yes. Can he improve? I don't know.

We pretty much agree. Baker misses too many open WR's. The rest is nothing more than a matter of semantics.

When you call Baker an unlikable Jerk and prefer to ignore many of the glaring obstacles that Baker and the whole offense is having to overcome - that's when you imply that you aren't being impartial with your view on Baker. As is insisting you judge OBJ as a HOF WR based on his reputation and ignoring his many drops and performance on the field this year.

I think "the obstacles Baker has had to overcome" have been highly exaggerated on this board.

I sure hope they keep Shobert, but I know they won't.

Just remember, we as fans, are not allowed to have nice things.

He is an unlikable jerk to me. It doesn't mean I don't want him to succeed. I want to win games. I'm beginning to think it will never happen.

Also, I think one of Baker's obstacles is Baker.

I am not. I was simply pointing out that your theory that the guys didn't spend any time together in the off season was false.

Jesus, Tony.

Did I really just read this??

Right - amazing.

Mayfield is the best QB the Browns have had, by far, since 99, and yet, you get this crap.

He has to actually deliver a winning season before he can be crowned the best since 99.

So far, that’s still couch and DA.

Ugh. Only two winnings seasons since 1999. That kind of ineptitude is truly remarkable.

Priefer says we shouldn't complain though. Hey, he's a positive guy!

If we're being honest, that bar isn't very high. We still aren't close to where we need to be for top half of league in terms of QB play. So while he may be better than what we have had, doesn't mean he's the guy yet to take us anywhere

I'm not as down on Priefer as you are. I don't really care about what he said. He's the special teams coach. I'd be mad if Freddie or Baker were saying it. Like I said I think he's done a good job. He knows he's about to switch teams again and is hoping it doesn't happen. Another team, another move. Plus he's from the area.

Under his watch we found our kicker and punter for the long term. Coverage is outstanding. And there are no gaffes on special teams. Get him a returner and that rank probably moves up.

I would not mind retaining him under the new coach similar to how Tabor survived all those years.

+10000 on a new returner

I have wondered why they don't have Hunt back there returning kickoffs

Is that the criteria now - LOL. 7-7 is close enough...

So far Derek Anderson is the best Browns QB I've ever seen.

I’m sorry.
I hope this changes. I can’t imagine being a fan if this team and not having all those memories from the 80’s to keep me going.

Tim Couch is the best that I can remember. I was born in 85, but I don't really recall much from the 90s as I lived in Florida then and it was really really hard to watch a game in those days outside of the market. lol

The best I can remember is the stretch with Holcomb/Couch when we had Butch ... the RUN WILLIAM RUN is the highlight of my fandom

Me too after we lost the Real Browns. The next year was just as bad as this year.

My Dad took me to a game in Otto Graham's last season. I was 6 or 7. I can't say I really remember Otto, though I do remember my Dad telling me to watch him. I was more excited about sitting with my Dad at my first Browns game. As overwhelming as my first Indians game...the greenest grass I ever saw.

Given college defenses or lack of defense.

Guys coming out early. Vast differences in college systems and level of competition. Most quarterbacks have a lot of learning to do as far as knowing how NFL defenses work.

Experience, film study, and really just playing and seeing over time helps.

Even experienced guys can look really bad at times.

I don't believe a college player coming into the NFL just "gets it." Pre-snap may give clues but post snap is where it all happens.

The ability to run the ball is extremely important. If you can consistently run the ball you can demoralize a team. You can impose your will on them.

That ability sets up play action which can free the pass game.

Baker has a lot to learn still. He has the skills you like in a qb. But at the same time he has to commit to film study. Then when OTA's begin they have to use that time wisely. So when camp begins they are ready to roll.

This offense outside of Chubb/Hunt running has not looked right. I just don't see the coordination needed between receivers and quarterback.

As far as Dorsey I stand behind him. The Freddie hire looks bad right now. But the other moves he made when he made them made sense. So I am not going after Dorsey. Good GM's like him are hard to find. We have had many and none have done what Dorsey has done as far as assembling talent.

Modern QBs really don't know. The days of the drop back QB who scans the field have been over at the HS and College level for 15 years or more.

I have to give the Ravens credit, they were the first team to go all in on the modern QB.

The college game is no longer going to train QB's to be NFL qb's because the high schools have long ago abandoned the drop back system, but hey, I told y'all this was going to happen 15 years ago.

Tebow was born about 5 years too soon.


Baker isn't fast, but he needs to keep running the ball. He can makes it work.


In todays NFL, if your QB can't run, you are playing half a man short.

The NFL is kinda cyclical. Mike Vick was what Lamar is. He was going to revolutionize the game.

But guys like Lamar and Vick don't come around every day.

I was thinking what a monster run game would be like.

John Robinson style. Get a huge run blocking line with double TE's and a couple of big power backs and smash the LOS. Pass it once in a while to keep them honest.

I love the run game. When you can run it and run it when they know you will. I love that.

Brings me back to big Jim Brown. They knew he was coming thirty times a game. Didn't matter. They could not stop him.

I think it could work again. You have to have the right personnel but I really think it could work.

Defenses like ours are based upon stopping the pass game. Great corners and rush the passer. The passing game is what the NFL is about for the most part.

We have two terrific runners. They compliment each other. Our line is far from great. More like average at best.
If we built and developed a power run game behind a line based upon that concept. It is my belief Baker would benefit as well.

You’re forgetting guys like wentz, Watson, Allen, Wilson, Darnold, tannehil, mahomes, carr, Prescott, Jones, trubisky, Rodgers, Newton, and Murray. All guys who aren’t traditional drop back passers, but really dual threats, or close to it. They have wheels and will gash you if you aren’t paying attention.

Lamar might be the most athletic out of all of them, but the style itself is no longer cyclical. It’s here bro. And these LBs and D linemen are too fast today to be drafting pure pocket passers.

J/c

Baker certainly hasn’t been stellar this season but anyone characterizing him as sucking and we need to move on must not have see a Browns QB before. But that’s just me.

The offense as a whole is disjointed, out of sync. The fact that we have players constantly having to put other players in position demonstrates this. I think we should count ourselves lucky Baker is one of the guys who knows where people are supposed to be. Jarvis is the other guy and I don’t think it’s a coincidence he’s Bakers most reliable WR.

Baker surely has missed open guys, but I think we have to factor in that with such a disjointed offense, just because the guy is open doesn’t mean he’s where he’s supposed to be. That doesn’t necessarily absolve Baker from all of most misses, but I think it’s a legit factor to consider.

Baker not realizing how much work he needed to put in during the off season is yet another thing I lay at Freddie’s feet. I think too often we assume that because a 22 yr old is being paid millions that they automatically should know what being a professional entails. Contrast that with the guy who is twice his age and worked in the NFL for over a decade. Freddie should have known better than to tell Baker to get away from football for awhile. There was plenty of time for commercials and getting married. I don’t count those against him. But Freddie should have demanded more. He clearly didn’t and that again speaks to my criticism of Freddie not being mature enough for his position.

I agree. It was bound to happen. I pointed this out 15 years ago. The college game figured this out long ago when all they could recruit was run option/spread QBs because that was all the high schools were turning out.

You did call this many years ago and you were spot on about it. Credit where it is due.

I also agree the Ravens have done a nice job. Not just with Lamar but also building that offense around Lamar and also bringing in two other guys who can run the same scheme. There have been teams in the past who would have their starter as a mobile/zone-read guy and the other guys on the depth chart as traditional dropback passers. Never made sense. If you're going to do it then do it, go all in like the Ravens have and build your offense around it. Like I said in another thread, I wish it was a team other than Baltimore but what can you do.

I also believe there's a little more to it, though. Guys who have the throwing ability, mobility, and durability to succeed doing what Lamar is doing are very hard to find. Even Lamar's story is not even close to being fully written yet, though he is playing outstanding and has held up thus far. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out, just from an NFL fan perspective.

If I had a young Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Peyton Manning, I'd have no issue with building an offense around those guys either. As mentioned though, those guys are also hard to find.

I feel John Dorsey has made a mistake with Freddie although I thought it was a good gamble considering where this team was at this time last year. JD has done a lot of good things with this team and deserves a chance to correct the FK hire. We do have a good amount of talent and with another solid draft and FA period we can contend next year providing we get the right HC and staff in here. That will be a big decision but I'm sure there will be some guys out there that would like to be our HC with the talent we have.

After Seattle reality kicked in for Baker. He seemed to put his head down and get his lunch pale.

He has salvaged a dumpster fire of a season and made it average. that's better than what many other players have done

If he goes into the offseason and improves himself, he will be much further along in year 3 and will likely be the face of the franchise for 10 more years

Baker had a better coaching staff last year and that is why he has regressed this year.

It is obvious Freddie wasn't that big of a help to Baker as we thought last year.

The qb coach Ken Zampese had a lot to do with Baker's success in his rookie year, not Freddie.

John, it is obvious, Freddie needs to go...Hire either Rivera or McCarthy.

Both would be sufficient upgrades to this crap staff.

One has won a Super Bowl and the other has appeared in a Super Bowl.

I have been preaching this for years. Hire a damn experienced head coach who has an obvious track record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

home wood, I think there are a lot of coaches, who it evaluated after their first season, would have been deemed a “mistake”. They later went on to fine coaching careers, some even hall of fame careers. We have pulled the firing trigger so quickly so many times yet we have gotten nowhere. For once we need to keep on keepin on with our head coach, and probably most of the staff.

I do have concerns about the direction baker has received this year. He was so effective downfield last season and not this season, I wonder why. Losing Myles for 6-7 games killed a defense that was underperforming anyway.

We need. I add more pieces, build on what we have and be better next year. Maybe a lot of us overrated our team preseason, mostly because of odells addition.

I wasn’t thrilled with the hiring of Freddie, but i did understand the pros and cons behind it. I don’t know how much one can blame Dorsey for taking the gamble to put the franchise ahead of the curve, but there’s more he could have done to mitigate the risk like making him OC. I get you want whoever your HC is to actually have who he wants as His coordinator, which would make even more sense to have looked at Bruce Arians. Assuming he would have kept Freddie as his OC, that route makes the most sense: you have experience at the helm, you keep what you believe is your up and commer, and you create a mentor type situation that isn’t uncomfortable for either party. At this point if we bring anyone in as a mentor, or advisor, or any other such thing, it’ll make Freddienlook even more unqualified.

This is the danger of putting a person in a leadership position that has such a massive learning curve. You can only expect so much patience from the subordinates before morale takes a nose dive because everyone is tired of waiting on the guy who’s supposed to know what he’s doing.

That is what I was talking about when I said the Ravens are the first team to go all in. To me it is a lot easier to plug and play another QB who can leg it out then to have a drop back guy go down and have to plug and play another drop back QB.

You don't have to change anything.

I agree. Dorsey has his faults, but no way we consider replacing him. He does deserve the chance to correct the hire. He went on a hunch I suppose. Freddie was the path of least resistance. I get the feeling Dorsey wanted a coach who wouldn't push back like a Williams. Hopefully he doesn't make the same mistake twice. He needs to hire a head coach and not look for his yes man.

I think Dorsey deserves a fair amount of the blame for what has transpired this year - and I was on-board with the Kitchens hire as head coach. Here's why his suite seat should be toasty this holiday season:

Week after week I watch teams in the NFL throw with great success to their TE...or multiple TEs. They are a QBs best friend behind a good OL. What did Dorsey do at that position? He failed...that's what he did. Now there appears to be a rift with our supposed 'stud' TE. One of our TE's from last year has about a half dozen TD catches so far this year...but he plays for the Texans.

Week after week I watch other young QBs standing and running behind OLs that are very good and that were bought/drafted/developed with the apparent understanding that a young QB needs a stout OL. What did Dorsey do at that unit? He failed...he weakened the interior and rolled-the-dice with the OTs.

Week after week I watch young QBs play in a system that appears to make sense for them. The coaches on those teams have a plan that everyone understands and that the players - and most importantly the QB - can run effectively. How did Dorsey's decision at HC/OC work out? I'd say he failed. Rolled the dice and lost again.

How did Dorsey's move across the DL work out? We've had a revolving door along the DL. Ogbah was a decent sub for KC until he got hurt...Nassib is a Team Captain in TB...we gave away Avery because the DC thought he was "limited"...C Smith was waived and we just signed yet-another practice squad DL guy to the 53. D Lawerence went from unblockable in TC to waived. Dorsey couldn't control the MG suspension or Vernon's injury...but his work building depth at this position was poor.

Dorsey's two signature moves in the off-season have been failures vs what was expected and the $$$ spent - not to mention he traded our #1 pick in 2019 for that mess. His first pick in the 2nd Rd 2018 - first overall in that round mind you - was a bust here...we got a fifth for him...whoopty heaven.

He hit with Mayfield, Chubb, Seibert, Redwine (apparently growing) and had the guts to sign Hunt, Gillan, Burnett and Richardson. The jury is out on a lot of other guys like Ward, Williams, C Thomas, M Wilson. He used a first to bring in OBJ.

It's his team and his team is a mess right now. That said, I don't want him fired...but his seat better be nice and warm this winter.

Fair break down ! Landry also

Dorsey has done more bad than good up to this point. He made moves he didn't need to do. He gave/took on terrible contracts. And imagine if Dorsey wasn't gifted all those extra picks.

This team is a mess.

There doesn't seem to be a plan and this team has no identity.

I agree the team is a mess, but it's fixable. There is talent here. There is a good FO in place with a proven track record that has made some bad moves but can rectify them this offseason. And let's face it, when you get the coach and QB wrong, you have no chance, no matter how talented the rest of the roster is. The three most important players in an organization are owner, coach, and QB. 2 of those three are trash (owner and coach) and the third may be trash or doesn't have much chance because the other two are trash. Dorsey needs to fix what he broke, and they need to get a good coach in here. I think a combination of good coach and Baker (if he can turn it around) can somewhat neutralize Haslam. But the Haslams have created such an awful culture that nothing might be able to overcome it.

I am not sure it is going to cycle back this time around.
In Vick's era, QB durability was a major concern. These days, QBs are taking fewer big hits, which may mean they can continue to be run first QBs for 10 years.

Additionally, with the pass interference rules and receiver protection rules, QBs no longer have to be as good at finding the open receiver. They can throw to a receiver that is tightly covered and come away with a PI call 30% of the time. If the defender has his back turned, they will take a chance.

On the other hand, Tom Brady won the last SB, and Drew Brees is still the best there is.

You might need to change your sig.....one, it is dated....two it is smack talk, and three, our "real" players aren't doing all that well.


Just saying

JC....


I think for the most part our biggest struggles on D has been at Safety...and on O it has been OL...Both are positions where Dorsey has extracted talented pieces (Zeitler and Peppers) and replaced them with inferior talent....and it has showed severely. He (Dorsey) needs a big offseason, and needs to not reach so much when drafting imho. He gets a little to happy with overdoing the roster (whether its trades or flipping players for draft picks...just seems to do it far too often when you are trying to build consistency with continuity)

If Dorsey is out you will see either Highsmith or Wolf announced as GM. I expect of the two it would be Elliot Wolf GM and Highsmith retain his position as is. Unless, of course, Dorsey goes elsewhere and bring Alonzo with him.

Amazing how things change. 15 games ago Dorsey walked on water and we were all praising "In Dorsey We Trust".

Losing Burnett was huge. He was our only player who had postseason experience.

I think we were all seeing the light at the end of the tunnel after so many years of darkness. However, as in the old Warner Brothers cartoons, that light was just another train bearing down on us.

Perhaps we should just put up a sign at the stadium saying, "First Energy Stadium, Home of Wile E Coyote - Super Genius"

There is no reason to Jettison Dorsey - he's not been perfect and he crapped the bed with Freddie. Fire Freddie - get an experienced HC in here and move forward. Dorsey has shown more than enough to earn a 3rd season.

Rish, how you can you say there is a good FO in place and then in the next sentence say they got the two most important hires wrong in the HC and QB? You can't be great at your job and screw up the most vital hires to your organization and be considered successful, right?

What is their track record? We have cast-offs from successful organizations that did not feel retaining them was a priority and quite frankly, haven't missed a beat since they've been replaced.

I'm holding out hope that Dorsey isn't a lost cause. Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith I thought were all highly regarded around the league. They can't all be bad, right?

And I'm holding out hope that Baker is the guy. No one wants to blame Baker for anything and instead blames everyone else. I've got to even out those scales. Too much hero worship and not calling if like it is with Baker. But I'm not really sure they got that Baker wrong. I don't think we know yet.

I don't think Dorsey is the issue. I think coaching was the issue. Hype was the issue. Inexperience was the issue. Injuries and missteps were an issue as well.

Show me - anyone, anytime, any post- where posters are not giving Baker a portion of the blame? Show me anyone that says he's played well this season. Show me anyone who says he hasn't been a disappointment and needs to improve ....... Or save yourself some time and admit that you can't - because as far as I have seen EVERYONE agrees Baker has not played well enough this year and needs to get better.

The ONLY difference is you and other Baker haters have blamed Baker for how the Defense has performed and other such incomprehensible things - while most on here think that while Baker was really bad in a handful of early games... he's shown a little bit of improvement with accuracy for the rest of the season even if it's still not good enough, but for many of the games, while Baker could have played better, he was NOT the reason for losing.

I am with you on both counts.

Dorsey is excellent at evaluating talent but am not sure we balances things to help the whole organization. We have a lot of shiny fixtures, but the foundation is fairly weak. One has to plan long term in that position. I am not sure he is very good at that. If he is as good as we think, why did he leave Kansas City. To think it was simply a power struggle with the coach is short sighted.

With Baker, we can point out faults, or perceived faults, but we have seen two different QB's in two seasons. That is the only real issue.

My take is it is easier to have a poor season, for whatever the reason(s) then to have a supurb season like he did last year. That tells me the ability is there. We have to instill change, be it with him or other areas of the team to get him that player back.

Obviously Freddie has been a big problem. Virtually every area of the team is floundering except special teams. It wasn't that way the last half of last season. Some can be pinned on Freddie, some on Dorsey. Or, it could be that Baker is a flash in the pan. Those type seasons usually happen with QB's after they have been around a while and not their rookie season, so I have hope we can get "that" Baker back.

Now it rests with Dorsey. I think he hired Freddie for a lot of reasons, and one is he knew he would have a head coach under his thumb. That can not be part of the criteria with this next hire. He has to hire a real head coach, even if it means that he and said coach butt heads from time to time.

We can't have Casper Milquetoast, the man who spoke softly and got beat with a big stick as our next head coach.

Nice points, and I agree w/the assessment of JD”s hiring of FK. Plus, he felt Baker wanted him.

His charge now is to admit his mistake, wish FK well, and find a REAL coach. One with some clout and a backbone. One that might challenge him and take some of his power. It’s tough to do, but JD has to do it.

The days of Tex Schramm picking the players and Tom Landry coaching the players are over. Any team that is winning and going to playoffs has a strong head coach.

I would be in favor of the head coach picking the first two players, then the scouting department making the rest of the picks. No doubt both sides would discuss the merits of various players.

It's not that hard to make the first couple of picks...in theory. I think mistakes with those picks is because people think too much.

The later picks are harder and you do need solid scouting to sift through the chaff.

I agree. And calling passing plays on 1st and goal is stupidity. Possibly insane.

I have always believed it's all hands on deck dor the draft with the GM having the final. Were I differ is on the 53 man roster . The coach has to wen ( or loose ) with them . That should be the coaching staff desiccation

I don't mind passing plays 1st and goal. Once in a while - with a running back lined up in the backfield so the D does not have a 99% certainty of whether you are running or passing.

Wow! That's awesome.

I cannot wait until I take my son to a game. Hes 4 now, but I don't think I can take him anytime soon. Too many drunks and hooligans anymore. My brother waited until my nephews were 12 before he took him. IDK if I can wait that long - so maybe 10.

Isnt the coach you backed selling happy bday videos for 50.00 a piece right now?

I guess he found a new chair to sit in.

This sounds reasonable to me. Tells a bunch about what a HC really intends as to his direction, well beyond Best Player Available.

Where does GM fit in this? Hands off? And suppose I want to trade up into a higher round than my pick. Curious as to what that might involve. Can this be worse than some past lunacy we have seen. Having someone who can judge players is vital. WWe also have seen that somebody who cannot is lethal. Great scouts and solid scouting are vital for later rounds.

I just need to lay off the Kool-aid this offseason.

John Dorsey - "we gotta get some football players"

Proceeds to not even discuss contract extension with Pro Bowl LB, and leader of defense. . . .

Dorsey has some work cut out for him.

The reality is we have a lot of guys to pay. Schobert should be one of him, but he might end up walking. The Browns currently have one of the most expensive teams in the league, and we'd be over the cap if not for rollover from previous years. This is despite many key players being on rookie contracts.

It's looking like we spent too much, too soon, before this team was ready to compete.

It's still salvageable though. There's a lot of good young talent here. We need to get the coaching fixed and player development up a notch.

Oh, there are def guys that are goin to have to walk. That's a no brainer. NE does it every year.

But we are gong to lose Kiro and Randall. I would suspect Vernon will not be on the books next year, along with others. They can get Schobert done if they wanted.

I know what you mean. I started taking mine when they were 8-9 years old. It is what it is. I used it as a learning experience. If some jackwad started cussing and all that stuff, I used it as a parenting moment. I explained to my kids the reason why Mom and I have all the rules that we do is because we didn't want them to grow up to be like that person.

They took it in stride

Good stuff. I am curious, would you say the demeanor of games were worse back then, or now as far as problems go?

Nah. Sashi still works in the NBA. Not dated at all.

More question's than answers ! Wonder how Haslam feels about Dorsey after two seasons ? Feel like Dorsey will spend a bunch of time revamping the roster , Will lead to a few talented player's and some head scratcher's .. Bunch of players on the field or a TEAM ?? How dose Dorsey feel about his talent evaluation skills at the O-line and D-lime positions ?? Where might he see drafting a Tackle or the need to improve the TE Room ??

Don't expect much in the way of revelations in the post season PR. speak. Not sure any of the Fan base is going to be happy with the Coaching search or selection ( just much water over the bridge since 1999 )

My gut says Schobert will end up with the Jets. Assuming GW is still D coordinator over there.

I’m not sure the Jets want to pony up that much more money to their LB corps ... but I cant think of another team needing a LB at the moment

The Jets already have C.J Moseley, who they signed to a 5 year deal this year.

Hard to say. I think the mood is angrier today, but I think that stems mostly from 20 years of being a bad team.

An option you have is I believe the team still has a family section. No alcohol allowed. That doesn't mean someone won't come in slobber faced.

It is what it is. Some people just don't care and don't know how to act in public.

sports.yahoo.com/john-dorsey-not-completely-safe-153223722.html

John Dorsey is “not completely safe” in Cleveland
ProFootball Talk on NBC Sports
Mike Florio

As the Browns prepare, by all appearances and indications, to part ways with coach Freddie Kitchens as soon as tonight, the question becomes whether that will be the end or the beginning.

Questions have emerged regarding the status of G.M. John Dorsey. As one source with knowledge of the dynamics in Cleveland explained it to PFT on Sunday morning, Dorsey is “not completely safe.”

On one hand, the firing of Dorsey would be a surprise, and unwarranted. Dorsey arrived during the 2017 season, and he promptly began infusing talent into the organization. Remember the rash of trades in early 2018, which showed that the Browns were serious about turning things around? Then, Dorseys’ decision to pounce on quarterback Baker Mayfield with the first pick in the 2018 draft was viewed as a stroke of genius; Dorsey also added cornerback Denzel Ward four picks later and, one round later, likely 2019 rushing champion Nick Chubb.

Earlier this year, Dorsey finagled a trade for gamebreaking receiver Odell Beckham Jr., which created even more excitement in the aftermath of last year’s 7-8-1 record. Dorsey also rolled the dice on 2017 rushing champion Kareem Hunt, who became available after last year’s off-field ugliness prompted the Chiefs to cut him loose.

But with the good comes the not-so-good. Dorsey is believed to have been the driving force behind bringing offensive coordinator Todd Haley to town in 2018, over the objection of former head coach Hue Jackson, who wanted to continue to be his own offensive coordinator. It didn’t work out, spectacularly.

Then, Dorsey was the guy who wanted to make Kitchens the head coach, even though he hadn’t been groomed for the gig. It hasn’t worked out, somewhat spectacularly.

Despite Mayfield’s strong performance as a rookie, his regression in 2019 coincided with the rise of Lamar Jackson, a budding superstar whom the Browns easily could have had in 2018, given the cluster of picks in the first two rounds. It’s not a stretch to think that Jimmy or Dee Haslam have raised the question, subtly or otherwise, as to whether Dorsey considered Lamar Jackson instead of Mayfield, especially since Jackson has become the league MVP with the team that used to be the Browns. Dorsey was still the G.M. in Kansas City when the Chiefs traded up to get Patrick Mahomes; it’s natural to wonder what Dorsey saw, or didn’t see, in Jackson.

It’s also natural to wonder whether the 2018 or 2019 version of Baker Mayfield will be the version of Baker Mayfield in 2020, and beyond.

Then there’s the Beckham trade, which sold tickets and jerseys but didn’t produce results. The Beckham move ultimately calls into question Dorsey’s team-building skills. The Browns have talented players, but who are the leaders? Who are holding people accountable? How do the strong personalities fit together? Who is grooming Baker Mayfield, getting him to properly direct his intense competitiveness in the right direction, while avoiding some of the issues that arise from time to time?

The X factor in the final analysis could be chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta. At one point during the season, rumors were swirling that DePodesta could be bumped ahead of Dorsey on the pecking order. That didn’t happen. Recently, however, a league source suggested that, if DePodesta were willing to relocate on a full-time basis to Cleveland, DePodesta would have a much larger role in the organization.

DePodesta’s influence becomes a more significant consideration, for now. With two years’ worth of fodder for “I told you so,” the Haslams could decide that the next best thing to DePodesta calling the shots on a full-time basis would be hiring a G.M. that DePodesta hand selects.

Again, this doesn’t mean Dorsey will be out. He may get another year, or more. But as the source said there’s a chance that ownership will decide not only to change coaches but also to change General Managers when the dust soon settles on the 2019 season.

Ah, the rumor mill.

Let's see..for the record, during Depo's 2016 and 2017 seasons, Haslam and his Browns won 1 game and lost 31 games, with the team finishing 4th in AFC North both years.

In 2018 and 2019, during Dorsey's time as GM, the Haslam's team won 7 games in 2018 and if they win today, the Browns will have won 14 games in Dorsey's 2 seasons as GM.

So, if your the owner of the Browns, what would you do, return to management style of Depodesta or continue with Dorsey?

Now you're going and bringing facts into the discussion. Why on earth would you do that?

Firing Dorsey would be the most asinine thing that could be done. It would definitely be the end of any hope that the franchise could obtain competent people to work for it.

Pit...damn straight I will...winning matters and the fact that Depodesta's record speaks volumes for experience and commitment to "football".

One story points out that Depodesta said he would move to Cleveland and be on the job "full time"..IMO, it shows just what Depodesta's priorities have been during his time with the Browns...HE WAS A PART TIMER!

Now that the Browns have shown some success Depo wants to piggy back onto Dorsey's work over the last two seasons and see if he can con Haslam into a GM type job.

however, FK and us are ...

One more thing...can anyone tell me what Depodesta does to improve the teaM?

annaliticks

Are you sure it isn't analicktics?

I think I knew her once .......

Depodesta's job is nothing like Dorseys job

"DePodesta is tasked with implementing systems and processes to strengthen the Browns organization and decision making. In this role, he works closely with General Manager John Dorsey, Head Coach Freddie Kitchens and members of the player development, high performance and analytics departments to maximize efforts."

Dorsey said that he has been pleased with the organization as a whole and says the Haslems are proactive in providing everything he needs - that included the analytics teams great support on Dorsey wanting Baker.


if Depo is going for a power grab I would be disappointed but Dorsey's exact quote on Depo is "“I will continue to understand the models and the concepts that his team has come up with, and at the end of the day, I’m a realist. It gives the decision-makers the ability to think through everything in terms of making the proper decision for the organization.”"


I am so surprised that folks are willing to run with this narrative coming out of Lombardi's mouth and are looking to divide this team.

The only way I want Dorsey gone is if he says that the OL is just fine, and we don't need to address it this off-season.

Dorsey made a few terrible decisions last off season.

#1 He let Gregg Williams go when Gregg had this team playing tough, discipline football.

#2 He traded Kevin Zietler for Olivier Vernon (Who was a huge bust) He had only a couple good moments all year while the offensive line was a disappointment for the Browns in 2019.

Zeitler has played a lot of trash football this year. It ended up being an even trade.

#3 He didn't sign a backup QB....

j/c...

Has Dorsey fired Kitchens yet?

And trade for a QB

The trade of Zeitler wasn't the issue. It was not having someone ready to take his place. And he traded away the player he thought it would be.

I can live with Dorsey, especially measuring some talent. Watching the bar lowered by FK is hurtful. We need to do better. And we need to get some new folks on O line.

And somebody to make BM perform.

Cleveland Browns signed TJ Carrie to a four-year, $31 million contract that includes $15.50 million guaranteed.

Such wasteful spending.

And how do we know that G-squared isn't a competent backup or perhaps even starter quality?

ANNALITICKS....?

...is it contagious?

Care to share what that would be, mac? Better talent yielded inferior results! Heads will roll...

We have a QB. With better coaching and game planning Baker will be better. He has a lot of talent. Giving up on him this early would be a mistake.

No we don't... at most we have a backup QB with an attitude....

I agree that giving up on baker would be dumb. Look the guy will be given his whole rookie contract to prove he can be the guy.

But if we get someone like McCarthy or mcdaniels as HC, baker has got to show improvement under those guys. He might (questionably) get a mulligan for this season due to the HC and some below average OL play, but let’s be clear: his recent comments with regards to offseason improvements is concerning about his individual character and work ethic.

Depo keeps hanging in there, and has made recommendations that would have worked out had his opinions been heeded rather than Dorsey tossing his voice to the curb and not given a second thought.

If I was Haslam, I would make Depo team president with Dorsey reporting to him.

Dorsey is a great scout much like Savage. We saw how that worked out. Too bad we didn't keep John Collins. The guy was a first rate administrator. Dorsey doesn't know squat about team building, contracts, salary cap or strategy.

I am beginning to think the guy is a doofus. He is a "football guy", but not a very smart football guy.

Although it might not look like it now we do have a QB. Look what he did his rookie year. Give Baker more time.

No problem in giving him more time, but do not give him the team.

Also more important is the new HC, and it should be the new HC deciding who is the QB of his team.

Nobody playing at Baker level should be starting in an NFL team.

32...it's just simple math...

With Depodesta and Sashi
2016 = 1 win
2017 = 0 wins

With Dorsey as GM
2018 = 7 wins
2019 = 6 wins

I understand that none of us are happy with the results of this season...but think about this..

When Kyle Shanahan took over the HC job in San Fran, his first season in 2017, the team won 6 games...

...in Shanahan's second season as HC the 49ers only won 4 games...did the 49ers GM fire Shanahan?...NO.

...in 2019, Shanahans 3rd season as HC, the 9ers won 12 games.

I'm not saying that Freddie is capable of that kind success here in Cleveland, but you really don't know how the future will play out.

My concern with Freddie...I think the team quit on him.

The team quit on Freddie a long time ago, not just in this game.

fyi Depodesta was here with dorsey too...

I invite you or anyone to look up AND POST Depodesta's football history and experience.

The big complaint was Dorsey spending assets frivolously ... well, that’s kinda the case here too at the moment. Not much production.

Now, maybe it’s due to his HC decision ... but its gotta be corrected

Doesn't matter.

Depodesta is maneuvering himself into a President of the Browns type of role. Sadly, Dorsey has made this easy for him by simply not listening to him on key issues.

Depodesta now goes to Haslam and says:

Remember, I was on record we should have hired McDermot
Remember, I was also on record stating we should have hired Stephanski, not Kitchens.

Dorsey has just made this too easy for Depodesta to just side step him and take control and its going to happen.

Before next season, Depodesta will be Dorsey's boss if Dorsey is still here,

Good teams make the best out of the worst. After JG went down 49's started building for the next season.

Kyle background and resume does not compare to Kitchens, and we all could see great things from him even before he was an HC.

Kitchens has nothing going for him... at least most of us can't see it.

I'm good with any of Dorsey decisions.. I trust him. Just don't sugar coat it and pretend this turd is not a turd...

Kitchens and Baker were awful this year, wouldn't mind getting rid of the 2,honestly, but again I trust Dorsey.

You shouldn't...

It's either him or Haslam... so I have no doubts.

Fair enough, but I think Haslam realizes he has been hoodwinked.

He suffered though 1-15 and then 0-16

In comes Dorsey promising him, "Let me take control and let me spend some money and i'll fix this"

So Haslam let him make all sorts of trades, give up draft picks, and even hire his own coach while taking on millions in contracts and this is the garbage he gets in return?

Honestly, We should have just stuck with Sashi Brown if this was going to be the results. Sure, it was rough, but Brown actually had a plan to build out of the draft, and had a lot of assets to work with. Browns plan was simple:

"the more picks you have, the more choices you cna make. The more choices you cna make, the greater your chances of striking gold"

It was a sound strategy, far more sound than any plan Dorsey has so far...hell I don't even think Dorsey has a plan, he is just picking what he thinks is talented, there is no plan.

John Dorsey was "gifted" the best GM position in history with a boatload of extra picks and all kinds of cap money and "this" is what we get?

He most certainly should be fired tommorow right along with Kitchens.

I have not read a lot of this thread but the just is where we place blame for this season.

Not saying Dorsey will or even should be fired, but should the Browns replace him tomorrow, do you think one of the first comments from the new GM will be "WE got to get these players some real coaches"?

I invite you or anyone to look up AND POST Depodesta's football history and experience.

I think you are giving up on him too soon. Not sure you were ever in his corner. Next year tells the tale.

Dorsey was fired twice for the same things he's done here...power/ego trip, not trusting advisors and spending like there's not a salary cap. There needs to be a president in place above Dorsey to be quorum between the FO coach and GM. Let Dorsey do his thing as far as scouting. Let a president and Depo do the cap and contracts

What does giving up on him means? Put him above the team, then no, you shouldn't do it with anyone.

All my reservations about him showed to be true. I don't think he is a bad QB, but never saw him has elite, and truly believe that he should have sit last year, and should have been benched this year.

People just get to involved in this, I think what we did with Kizer, Weeden and others was the good thing to do. Just move one, the risk you take is just not worth it.

The risk we are going to take with Baker can be minimized, just sign a viable backup QB, and if Baker starts playing like this next year just move him.

If he needs more time to mature and learn the game, just bench him and develop him.

No need to make a big Drama. Don't do like the Bucks did

He has none. That doesn't disqualify you from being a team executive.

Running a team is more than being a "football guy".

Everybody has a role. Some are operational, such as scouting, some are executive level....you know, the lawyer and accounting stuff.


It takes both, Mac.

I predict Jimmy is going to fire Dorsey and Freddie tomorrow.

He will bring in McDaniels and a new GM.

And by the way, McDaniels SUCKS!

Freddie Yes I don't see Dorsey going anywhere … JMHO

I am trying hard to get on board with Dorsey or at least stay neutral, but he hasn't yet passed this test...

Dorsey and Freddie are gone. I'm telling you!

Bank on it!

"That escalated quickly." (Talking about Dorsey)

I think it's a pretty good bet that Freddie will be gone. Not sure about Dorsey. I would have thought it was pretty clear he would be back until recently; now I'm not so sure. Haslam may have been working the back channels recently, seeing if there is anyone who he might want to get in here instead.

What a mess.

Dorsey is safe and he should be.

j/c...

On the surface if a new structure is established, it doesn't bode well for Dorsey regarding, at a minimum, the HC search as he flexed those muscles for Kitchens.

Yep, Dorsey shouldn't have any input at all in the coaching search.. I believe Depo will be made president and Dorsey will report to him

I can't imagine a scenario where Dorsey would agree to that, but who knows?

That's cool and all that.

The Browns have been through all this multiple times, and the result has pretty much been the same.

I don't give a rip who they hire as head coach (whoever it is damn well better win next year, or get fired) I don't give a flip who they draft, I don't give a flip about anything until they start winning games.

And i'm pretty sure firing head coaches every 2 years on average, isn't the way to do it.

I don't support the Browns financially like several on here do, but I'm tired as hell with the 're boot' every 2 years.

Incoming resignation

Haha! Good one.

This might be the dumbest tweet I have seen all month.

It’s hard to see the Browns moving on from Dorsey after he gave a statement about Kitchens being fired. Counterpoint, the Haslams.

Right. Haslem let LomBanner hire Pettine and then fired them both a few days later. Haslem is the wildcard.

A wildcard would have been nice.

This was my immediate thought, Haslam and Banner did a press conference together on Chud's firing and then Banner got fired.

Anything is possible with Haslam.

Gentlemen, Dorsey will either resign or accept a lower role as GM.

While I think we should retain Dorsey, for those of you calling people "insane" for wanting him gone, then WHERE do you place the blame for us woefully underachieving this season? Was it Baker Mayfield? Dorsey is the one who had first choice and picked him over all other QBs of that draft. Was it the O-line? Dorsey traded away a Pro-Bowl guard in Zeitler, because he thought his guy Corbett could do the job himself. He then also ignored the Tackle spots, sticking with the low budget finds that he had brought in. Was in Freddie Kitchens and the coaching? Dorsey is the one who flexed his muscles and picked him over the consensus guy, then basically let him scrap the coaching structure that we had built up from previous years. And then if reports are true, he adamantly insisted that we stick with the hire, despite the team crashing and burning to a 6 win record.

So while he's earned himself a lot of cachet for last year's draft, he certainly blew through most of that house money with this year's results. For those that support Dorsey, then my second question is this, who has he brought in to establish himself as a talent finding genius? While there are a number of players that I think that would qualify, why did we have such a poor year? If your answer is the coaching staff ... then why was Dorsey standing by them?

peen is the winner with the correct answer...Depodesta is not qualified to hold a GM position for the Browns.

If Depodesta stays in his lane and does what he is best at...and I still don't know what Depodesta does for the Browns...but the Browns must have a football guy assisting the new HC, helping him find the type of players the new HC needs.

Depodesta's job with the Browns has been on a part time basis as he and the family reside in San Diago, CA.

In 2016, Depo and his wife started a business named Sports Mind Institute.

Best way to learn about Depo is listen to his interviews...

I agree. I don't think Depo should be GM in a traditional sense. I see him more as team president. The GM answers to him.

The president sets the course and goals for the team. The GM then navigates the team towards the destination.

The Captain might be the final say, but he isn't up on the bridge steering the ship all the time.

Peen...did you watch those videos?

It was interesting to listen to Depo talk about his first draft, based on analytics...the Cory Coleman pick.

Cory Coleman, who was traded to the Bills (on 8-5-18) for a 7th round draft pick. Coleman did not survive the Bills final cut...
...picked up by the Patriots but was cut after 7 days.
...picked up by the Giants on 10-19-18. Spent time on their practice squad and active roster...was signed by the Giants for 2019.
...Coleman tore his ACL on the first day of training camp (2019) and missed the 2019 season.

Just one example of how far off analytics can be and how it might have helped the Browns..Ohio State WR, Michael Thomas (6-3, 212) was available to the Browns in the first and second rounds and they passed on him.

There is no way in hell that Dorsey should answer to Depodesta.

Haslam is creating this disfunctional management set up..it's up to Jimmy to define Depodesta's job and where he stands in the decision making process.

So because he missed on Corey Coleman he shouldnt be consulted. What about the two years worth of drafts outside of Chubb Dorsey has missed on?
2018
Mayfield- Awesome rookie season, historically bad second year...jury still out
Ward- One concussion away from a career, very mediocre to bad this year..
corbett Sucked and traded
chubb Stud, best pick of either draft
C.Thomas God awful, guys off street more impactful
Callaway- cut
Avery Mishandled and given up on
Ratley he's no higgins
S.Thomas cut

traded a 3rd for 2.5 games of Tyrod Taylor
Gave hubbard 36 million dollars to be the worst RT in football
TJ Carrie won lottery given how average he's been..

11 picks basically 3 contributors

2019
Traded for Odell and vernon giving up a 1st and Peppers and the top RG. Created more holes than helped
Signed a bunch of meh role players that contributed very little outside of Richardson
Failed to fix the tackle position
Did a good thing taking a chance on Hunt
Ogbah was better for the Chiefs than Murray (who he was traded for) was for us
Trading picks for McCray and Taylor...ugh
I'm still not convinced Gillan is a better punter, but he's younger and cheaper..so i'm good with that
Siebert..horrible but still rookie, I give him a couple more years, but def. bring in competition
Greedy Williams- Horrible, can't tackle or cover..just not strong enough to play alone
Mack Wilson- Raw, has no business starting
Takitaki and redwine- big reaches with poor results
Forbes- jury still out, gets alot of love from some preseason games

For all of the talk about culture since Dorsey arrived, it seems like it's actually worse than when he got here.
Undoubtedly, the mess of a head coaching decision led to some of this, but Dorsey has always approached this in terms of adding talent.
It's never felt like someone actually building a team. And they often played like a collection of talent rather than a team.
He tries to take shortcuts and its actually set us back. They have to get the HC hire right

The problem you have with your argument...the Browns won 13 games in two seasons...the best results over any two year period since the Haslams bought the team.

LET ME ADD...I'm not about to claim that there are not issues that must be addressed if the Browns are going to improve.


...imo, it starts with hiring a coach who knows how to handle experienced talent is a must. This team needs a HC who "demands" respect and lets the team know that anything less will not be tolerated.

The players cannot respect a HC who is "too young" for the job and is given a job as HC but is in over his head. Freddie was not ready to be a HC and OC and the players identified his weaknesses early in the season and their loss of respect showed with their performance on the field.

I hope the Browns do not repeat the same mistake again, hiring a first time HC to coach the team for a year or two.

I'm agreement on the coach...it has to be right this time. But PD was here during those 13 wins as well. I don't think anyone thinks PD should be a GM, but II think the issue is Dorsey seems to disregard anything the analytics say and goes against based on whatever he feels, which is his right, but the last two coaches PD recommended would have been the correct call opposed to Dorsey's picks. I think Dorsey and his ego are his own worst enemy, I think he needs a check and balance. Someone that can look at the data and say yeah its good/bad/marginal. That guy would be PD. Not saying everything PD's data says is correct but should atleast be considered and in the case of coaching where the overwhelming data point one way and he goes another..That looks bad. Last year the two analytic pics were Flores and Stefanski. From day one I didn't think FK was the right pick and actually I made a post how I wasn't sure if he could handle a team with this talent and expectations. If the average fan felt like this, not sure how a guy like dorsey couldn't see it. I feel there is more to how it came about and I believe it has to do with baker

j/c --

Sounds to me like Jimmuh is somewhat regretting giving up on the Sashi Brown approach too soon. Dorsey has squandered almost all the good Sashi did and now it's almost all for naught.

Only in Cleveland.

Harsh words.

Truth can be harsh.

I agree - with the exception of the fact that the person responsible for the hiring of Freddie was also responsible for talent acquisition, and he's done a better job of that than any other GM we've had since '99. Dorsey absolutely owns the Freddie mistake, he doesn't get fired because he's shown that his other areas of responsibility have been successful. . . . before anyone starts questioning that statement, please note that I did NOY say Dorsey has been perfect or not made mistakes. As for the OBJ / Vernon / Peppers / Zeitler trades ... I think it's impossible to judge based on this year. If history judges that we lost out on those, I think Dorsey's grade gets altered quite a bit.

Amen !

Agreed 100%

I'm largely repeating, but I think it's worth it. You don't pass up bluechip, proven NFL talent that aren't over the hill (Vernon, OBJ). Giving up Zeitler was rough, but he thought he had Corbett ready to go. That's a draft miss right there.

You mean the NBA guy?

You still don't get it.

Oh I got it. 1-31 worth of got it.

While he's got some serious misses on his ledger (Kitchens and Corbett), Dorsey still has done more good than harm. Far more, IMO. That should keep his job safe, for now.

The problem is, at least for the upcoming HC hire, he's lost leverage and will have to work more with others going forward. That opens up the possibility that Dorsey might be forced out once the new coaching staff begins to be assembled.

I don't want this to happen, but I'm emotionally preparing myself.

13-18-1 over 1-31 Dorsey has a lot more good than bad ...

Dorsey was let go from KC because he refused to work well with others. Its been written and posted about on the board. I don't think this ends well for John. Especially if he tries to "flex his muscles" again at Jimmy.

AS much as we hate it, this is, was, and will be Jimmy's team until HE decides to sell it. Whomever they decide to hire, and the power that is given to the HC, John either likes it or leaves.

The coach doesn't choose his GM. Some of the things this fan base buys into is amazing.

You are correct, but Dorsey has lost leverage within the FO, and a head coach has to be hired. A guy coming in that doesn't work well with Dorsey will have a longer leash than JD.

Coaches choose the GM all the time.

And the organization that wants JMc will need to allow that most likely. I dont mind it so much as long as he doesn't try to take it on himself. Too much!!!

Normally, no.
But didn't we hire Hue before we hired a GM?

Also, its jimmy man - I fully expect this to be done half arse backwards

Pete Carroll chose John Schneider
Kyle Shanahan chose John Lynch
Andy Reid chose John Dorsey (then fired him and chose Brett Veach)
Sean McDermott chose Brandon Beane
Bill O'Brien chose himself
Jon Gruden chose Mike Mayock

The order doesn't matter. Everyone just has to be on the same page.

All the time? Are you using hyperbole here?

All the time meaning it is not unusual.

Well you named six instances out of thirty two teams that covered quite a bit of time. If you look at all of the HC hires over that amount of time I would say it's more unusual than you indicate.

Nope. I indicated the right amount of usual.

It's not freakishly rare.

It's not uncommon.

If we got the right HC - and the price was him choosing his own GM, I don't have a problem at all. . . If we don't get our top choice, I'm a lot less flexible with regard to getting the next guy on the list, or the guy after him or the guy after .... etc

Your list goes back to January of 2010. This will be the 10th coaching cycle since that time and you only listed six. So 40 or more HC's have been hired and you call the conditions under which six of them have been hired isn't unusual.

Alrighty then.

j/c

I think a lot depends on how much Jimmy was or is committed to the system DePo put in place. One could assume fairly committed if DePo was retained after Sashi was let go and Dorsey brought in. I think between Dorsey's comments about the nerds and flexing his muscle, clearly he hadn't bought in fully to what DePo was doing. I'd hazard to guess that Dorsey was able to persuade Jimmy to move away from that plan. If DePo put forth HC candidates backed up with data that turned out to do well AND are being considered again, maybe Jimmy's learned a huge lesson about straying from the plan.

Now, I wouldn't want DePo in charge of deciding who the next HC should be. But I also don't think he would necessarily want to be the guy to do that anyway. I think DePo's function is to put forth candidates, data if possible, and assess the pros and cons of any other suggestions (i.e. from Dorsey). I do however feel there is great value in taking DePo's recommendations seriously because they are much more likely to be objective, dispassionate, and have a clearer place in the over all organizational mission. You are less likely to have to deal with GM egos, and him wanting a coach he can" control". That kind of pettiness has no place in a professional organization.

j/c...

Putting this in Dorsey thread as it's related to the FO.

He is the best we have at evaluating talent imo. I would be sorry to see him leave for Miami.

I get the feeling that Dorsey is twisting in the wind while Haslam considers McDaniel. If he's only willing to come here with veto power over who is GM, then I'd say stay home, Josh.

Dorsey is scheduled to address the media tomorrow. I'm guessing we'll leave that press conference with more questions than answers.

But your snotty dig at the fanbase indicated it never happens and it's "amazing" anybody would think so. 'member this?

"The coach doesn't choose his GM. Some of the things this fan base buys into is amazing."

I'm not so sure. I wouldn't be surprised if Highsmith was the main force behind drafting Chad Thomas and Sheldrick Redwine.

Indeed. Hard to say they aren't true. Hard to say John's first hire as a coach wasn't a total flop.

I don't think we fire the guy, but he is going to be checked.

He was given the keys to the vault with draft picks which didn't produce much in comparison the the number of picks he had at his disposal and his choice of a head coach was historically bad.

I think John didn't want a strong head coach. He has lost power struggles in the past. He didn't want it that way here. Freddie was under his thumb.

Our "real players" didn't play all that well. John's thumb print is all over that.

Now he gets to take a reduced role. I'd let John scout, then see how his evaluations compare to Depo's. I think that has already happened. Depo is very organized and smart. I am sure he has provided Jimmy his big board as compared to John's. A year or two later, it would be telling to compare the boards

Apparently the next coach will have input in deciding Dorsey's future. Sounds like the next coach will not be answering to Dorsey, Dorsey will be answering to the next coach. If I were Dorsey I would resign!

So Dorsey is going to be more of a scout now than a GM? Then don't blame Dorsey if things go bad again next year. The power struggle continues!!!

I've never heard that, but I know that he was instrumental in Drafting Chubb, and not only that, but I think that he is very knowledgeable at his trade.

And The guy (Berry) who wanted Chad Thomas is no longer here.

Redwine had two good weeks followed by two nots so good weeks ... he is a rookie.

That all depends on how long Dorsey’s contract is. You get fired, you get paid. You quit, Haslem get’s paid by keeping that cash for himself.

McCarthy will interview with the Browns Reported on Cleveland.com … There is our next HC I hope

How can Dorsey do his job with his hands tied? Yea Freddie was a bad choice but don't handcuff Dorsey because of it. Haslem can keep his money. I would rather resign then be a GM in title only. I'm sure there are plenty of teams that would love to have Dorsey as their GM.

And could apparently be Dorsey's next boss. that is if McCarthy, or whoever the next coach is, decides to keep him.

I figure McCarthy will keep him since they worked together in GB

I hope so but you never know. What happens if McCarthy wants to be coach and GM? The Browns are still one screwed up franchise.

If McCarthy gets hired then he, Dorsey, Wolfe, and Hightower will all be back together again

If that happens and the Browns become true SB contenders I will be happy!

We might be losing Hightower to UM anyway.

Mike Silver is so tough to watch on air.

McCarthy has 125-77-2 regular season record, 10-8 playoff record, 6 division titles, 3 NFC title appearances, and a SB title.

I’ll take that all day everyday.

As HC??

If the Dictionary had Talking Head in it there would be a picture of Silver

I have bit more news, this time on UM front: Alonzo Highsmith joining UM in chief of staff role, running football, has emerged as real possibility, per sources. No deal at this time but UM strongly looking at this now.

https://twitter.com/flasportsbuzz/status/1211769909673365505

Me too!

Hire McCarthy. Fire Dorsey.

Fixed it for you.

i agree

The Chiefs obviously didn't.

I like Dorsey, but he isn't the magic man who walks on water. He hired a coach who wasn't near ready. He owns that. That move cost us possible playoffs.

I don't want him fired. I just don't want that guy with unfettered control.

The road behind you isn't the same as the road ahead.

He isn't magic but he is far better than we have ever had after Butch.

Its either Dorsey or the Haslams... so give him unfettered control if you need.

A good thing about Dorsey is that he has no problem recognizing his mistakes and correcting them, that is how you improve.

Expect some major changes....

I hope so.

If one is being truly objective, Dorsey has been an unmitigated disaster this year and has essentially undone most of the good he did the year before.

I have to say, we had it right with Williams as head coach and Freddie as OC. But noooo, John couldn't have Williams as his coach. He actually has some hair on his ass and would voice his opinions. John can't have that.

As Cleveland Browns look for a new coach, what about the front office?

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...-next-move.html
By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio — Firing coach Freddie Kitchens was the easy part for the Browns.

No need to detail the problems of the rookie head coach. Fans know all about it after watching their team lose 4 of 5 games to finish 6-10.

The big question is this: What’s next?

That’s right. . . WHAT is next? Not just WHO is next.

If the Browns had a front office operating with the full confidence of ownership, next would be General Manager John Dorsey running the search for a coach and hiring his man.

That was the situation a year ago, when Dorsey picked Kitchens. It ended up being a disaster.

That was especially damaging to Dorsey because Chief Operating Officer Paul DePodesta backed Minnesota offensive coordinator Kevin Stefanski for the job.

Owners Dee and Jimmy Haslam were enamored with Dorsey a year ago as the team finished strong for a 7-8-1 record. They let him name his coach. It’s a shame it didn’t work out.

I prefer a front office set up with the coach reporting to the general manager, and the GM reporting to ownership.

WHY CHANGE IS COMING

After Kitchens, it’s clear ownership will not be giving Dorsey the same freedom as a year ago. Nor is it fair to fault the Haslams for Kitchens. They allowed Dorsey to make that call.

Meanwhile, DePodesta and the analytics department recommended the Browns hire Sean McDermott over Hue Jackson in 2017. Former team vice president Sashi Brown also favored McDermott. Ownership preferred Jackson.

McDermott has become a successful head coach in Buffalo, which is in the playoffs for the second time in his three seasons there.

Stefanski had a good year calling plays for Minnesota. Would he have been better than Kitchens? Who knows? Probably, given the disastrous coaching issues the Browns experienced this season.

That’s why I’m hearing DePodesta will have a strong say in the selection of the head coach. I also expect ownership to be more involved. Not sure where that leaves Dorsey, at least when it comes to this big decision.

WHAT’S NEXT?

One executive told me the Browns could put DePodesta in charge of the football operation, much as Brown was in 2017. Dorsey could remain with the GM title but be more a player personnel director, concentrating on the draft and free agency.

I’m not sure that will end up being the case. My guess is DePodesta’s recommendations will be taken even more seriously than in the past – but he won’t run the football department.

But as the executive said, the Browns are interested in New England offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels. The last time McDaniels was a head coach, he also was in charge of the football operation in Denver. That was a mess.

Would McDaniels be willing to work under DePodesta? I’ve heard rumors of the Browns dreaming of pairing McDaniels with New England player personnel director Nick Caserio. Both played at John Carroll University and have Northeast Ohio roots. Is that enough to attract them to a team that is looking for its sixth coach since 2012?

According to the Boston Globe, Caserio’s contract with the Patriots runs until after the 2020 draft. Would the Pats let him out early? They blocked a chance for him to go to Houston last season as GM.

To confuse matters more, another NFL executive told me that not a lot is changing in terms of Dorsey’s role. Dorsey will be meeting with the media Tuesday to discuss the firing of Kitchens and the coaching search.

So perhaps the changes won’t be as big as I expect.

But for the Browns, the big WHAT is the structure of the front office and how that impacts the coaching search.

THE FIRST DECISION

Who is picking the coach? Who is picking the players? Who is running the front office?

That is what ownership must decide while also searching for a coach.

In the past, the Haslams had a pyramid setup. The coach and GM were on the same level — the base of the pyramid — with both reporting to the owners.

That changed with Dorsey in charge of Kitchens.

Do the Haslams return to a pyramid, which can lead to the coach in a power struggle with the front office?

DePodesta has at least one year left on his contract (unless it’s been extended). He signed a 4-year deal when hired in 2016. So did Sashi Brown, who is still being paid by the Browns while now working for the NBA’s Washington Wizards as a senior vice president.

THE COACHING SEARCH

The names emerging are all over the coaching map.

There’s Mike McCarthy, a veteran former head coach of the Green Bay Packers. He has a close relationship with Dorsey.

There’s Stefanski reportedly heading back for another interview.

There’s McDaniels, who has flirted with the Browns several times dating back to 2013.

There are coordinators Greg Roman (Baltimore, offense), Robert Saleh (San Francisco, defense) and Brian Daboll (Buffalo, offense).

The hiring of Kitchens (and some other moves) damaged the reputation of Dorsey with ownership and is leading to some type of front office restructuring.

One way for the Haslams to find the right coach is to figure out who will really be running the front office. That has to be the first move.

And I'll add undone most of the good Sashi had laid out.

That is kind of true, Rishuz. Although OBJ would’ve worked better if he had not been hurt all year and misused when he did play.
But JD messed up the OL, did not nail the draft and left us thin on the DL. Worst of all, he forced a bad coach on us. I still think he is a good GM, but he should not be in control.

And they are needed. But let's get the next coach and staff in here first so that changes are in sync with the 'new plan'...

I felt that Sashi was on the right track and needed one more year before his plan started to bear fruit...

U just don’t get it .... ....

Thank god u guys get it ... ...

1000% spot on about this. John wants guys to kiss his ring and fall in line. That's not a great type of leader. A great leader, and a great GM, takes input from others and values others opinions. Your only as good as the people working for you. If you are hiring people based on the fact they are not as good as you - your not going to be good yourself.

U guys seriously think thats why GW didn’t get the job ... ...

I’d bet NO decision makers wanted him ...

Now that Freddies gone I see KJ has now become the lighting rod for everything rotten with this team ...

Some of the menZas even wish we had kept Sashi ... madness i tell ya, MADNESS ...

No we didn't. GW shouldn't even be in the NFL, and my feelings is that its not going to take long for him to be out.

I think there were reports in the past about john not working well with others in KC, and that was a big reason why he was let go, if not THE reason.

I can criticize John and still want him as the GM. Why do you think that a criticism means someone wants him gone?

JD is far from perfect, but hes still to this date better at evaluating talent than anyone we have had previously. But if you think evaluating talent is the only thing a GM does, you are in for a rude awakening. John has some big deficiencies when it comes to being a great leader.

Its been written about, reported, and surely was FACT when he hired FK as the HC that he doesn't want a HC that will clap back at him.

FYI, I didn't want GW as the HC - but he would have been by far a better pick than Freddie. Your boy failed miserably with that. MISERABLY

I think Dorsey has a good eye for talent. I don't know that he's the best we've had.

I keep hearing that people wanted Williams as HC and Kitchens as OC. And why didn't we just keep that dynamic. There was no guarantee Kitchens would have remained OC if Williams gets the HC job. I had long thought this was the hiccup in this scenario. The key for Dorsey was having Kitchens work with Baker. No one wanted to have Kitchens forced on them so Dorsey made Kitchens the HC.

It was a disaster of epic proportions.

Call me mad, I say....MAD!

j/c...

I don't know whether this is factual or not, but if it is, then our new HC search is going to be tough and may present some dysfunction down the road...

Diam...What I find interesting...I spent some time reading through a couple of threads from Jan 2019..it is amazing how many who are looking to blame JD for the Kitchens hire now, just loved the Kitchens hire back in Jan 2019..just 11 months ago.

Some act as if Dorsey was the only member of management in that room on the day "the Browns" hired FK. Some out right claim it was Dorsey who hired and wanted Freddie, yet they provide nothing to back it up.

Its an opinion, but its based on the reports and stories from when John was let go from KC, and how he marched to his own drum despite others opinions. I believe the reported said (paraphrasing), "John would just do things out of the blue, with no explanation, no reasoning, he just to do it. "

Not gonna lie. I'm surprised at the support of Dorsey around here.

The guy failed.

I don't know if it's true or not either, but the few tidbits of actual information out there do support this theory. There was an article that summed up the leadup and exit from KC. It painted him as a master of his craft, but also abrasive and tough to work with. Very 'my way or the highway'. Any coaches like Reid, or a McDaniels or others that have to have some control of things beyond the field won't work well with Dorsey (I think we can safely conclude that).

I really want to keep Dorsey. I think, despite his misses (which everyone has) he has done much more good, and still has more good to do. The guy has shown he can own his mistakes (Corbett, Calloway, and now Freddie), and he can swing deals and think outside the box to get players in the building.

I'm not on the McCarthy hype train, but now I am wondering if he might be our best bet to get a decent coach in here that will also allow us to retain Dorsey and everyone can be happy. Depends on how real all these rumblings are about FO shakeup accompanying the coaching search.

I'll say one more thing. If Haslam/Depo are changing the org structure, and Dorsey loses some power/influence to the coach, it will be all the more important that that coach can work well with Dorsey (like McCarthy), but is also a more experienced/stronger guy (again, like McCarthy). A super green college coach brought in because of his flashy, flavor-of-the-month offense is going to (intentionally or unintentionally) cause chaos in Berea clanging heads with Dorsey.

Nice summary by Pluto. Really hope we hire a game coach. If we want to expand his duties, mandate that cannot happen until year two. Such a lousy end to the season with FK, I am still trying to get that stench out. Somebody needs to crank BM's work and development aggressively. Year-end stats from last season to this one say a lot about where he is at this moment. Limit his interviews. Focus him. He needs to achieve more and radically cut picks. Spare me the "1-0" and the "going forward" lectures. Shut up and win.

I like your analysis and take on McCarthy. He did not interview before last year if I recall. Let's not drag this out forever. If not Rivera, lets get done and begin transition. I do not want a coach with no HC experience in the Bigs.

Wishful, perhaps, but McCarthy and Dorsey at 90% are huge advantage over the sludge we saw this year. Maybe Dorsey can be dialed back some as well.

I'm still saying Dorsey gets miffed at someone they bring in or want and gives an ultimatum. These guys all run in their cliques. Especially anyone established.

J/C

We have enough to talent win some games alone. We lost plenty of games squarely on Freddie's plan, and his game time decisions.

I believe with a coach that can simply manage timeouts and understand basic gameday situational football, we make the playoffs, easily.

With a coach that can get more out of his players as a leader, and get guys to run through a brick wall for him, we are in the SB.

It's not factual - it is 100% speculation.

History shows that Andy Reid never operated well with a GM.

From 2001 on, when Reid was named as the Eagles executive vice president of football operations as well as HC, the Eagles had a GM in name only. Reid made sure he had final say on his roster.

Same thing happened in KC after Dorsey had added a lot of talent, helping to turn the Chiefs around from a 2-14 record in 2012.

Look it up...

j/c...

Oh boy.

Oh boy, indeed...

Dorsey needs a lesser role or to be gone.

When we were set up as well as we were and then two years later we are firing his 3rd coach after a 6-10 record, he doesn't get it.

Follow-up....

Don't forget he hired Haley to be the heir apparent to Hue, how did that turn out?

Too many scenarios at play. Actual meetings? Wolf/DePodesta takeover? The New England connection coming? Something entirely different?

Not really. OBJ injured. Vernon injured. 2 young 'stud' CB's injured for long stretch. MG suspended. . . . . Everyone is entitled to an opinion - but I'll wait for a stretch of games when some of these key parts that were acquired this year can actually contribute before passing final judgement.

I didn’t say u wanted him gone ... i said your one of many that has made him the new lighting rod ...

Only way i said u wanted him gone is if u miss Sashi and i know your not a (I’ll be nice here cause bbrowns is a good dude) sashiette and u don't miss him ...

Next..... *L* ...

He hired Haley as OC.
How did Haley's offense work out last year once the internal in fighting was squashed? I'd say pretty damn well.

Peen...went back to Jan 2019 and looked through the responses when it was announced that the Browns hired Freddie...you thought FK was good hire at that time.

interesting...

What i don’t get is posters like Peen ... everything good that happens is Depo .... everything bad that happens is KJ ... i don’t get that even a little bit ...

About the only thing we know about depo is he thought Wentz was not a franchise QB and analytics said Corey Coleman was a way way better pick than one M. Thomas ... so all we know about him is hes 0 - 2 ... Maybe analytics says he’s due to get one right .... *L* ...

I wouldn't call me a sashi hater, or a Dorsey lover.

I think Sashi had a job to do, and executed it. I don't think the Haslams believed he was the man to acquire the type of talent they wanted on the team, and John has been able to acquire that talent.

I do see where though that John has failed (Freddie, getting me guys, and not putting talent above every other intangible), but I still think he deserves his job. But he needs to realize that he has made some BIG mistakes.

Im ok with guys making mistakes, no one is perfect. I was ok with cutting guys like Nassib and trading Ogbah, but hindsight, those were mistakes. Not big deal though.

Hiring Freddie - HUGE mistake. This was a big deal.

If John stays (and he should), if misses again on the next coach, he will be fired.

That really doenst matter does it? Haley HIMSELF, was a disaster. You don't get to rewrite history. Haley was a jerkoff and a mistake to hire. FYI, all reports are that Zampese and company ALTERED Haleys offense. So it exactly wasn't Haleys offense either. But hey, you got a post in.

I was a guy that wanted Freddie. Ill take that L, however I am not paid millions of dollars to make that decision, so me being right or wrong is really not important is it?

Dorsey however, IS getting paid millions to make that decision, and he failed. What I, peen, or anyone on this board thinks or thought rather, doesn't matter.

It literally was reported that Dorsey "flexed his muscles" and got Freddit hired. The other side of the team (analytics" wanted others. Dorsey wanted to keep Freddie. You don't get to change the facts after they happened.

Now let's not bring facts in front of a lynch mob. You know yourself a baseball guy and now an NBA pencil pusher would be the answer.

Now, for those who claim they know it was JD who made the call on hiring Freddie, are you aware of what kind of input Depodesta has?

I read something about Depodesta pushing the idea of the Browns establishing coordinator pipeline, which I interpret as promoting from within in an attempt to maintain continuity.

Isn't that exactly what the Browns did, follow Depodesta's guidline, retaining Freddie as the OC but adding the HC title?

look it up...

I wanted Freddie to be the HC as well. Unfortunately, it didn't work out.

I don't pretend to be a Dorsey-ite (see how that works, Diam), but I am trying to be at least neutral. I do admit, however, that I liked the plan Sashi had and really would have liked to see how it would have played out to this point in time...

Hogwash.

Depo wanted Stefanski and I believe florres. Stefanski is still up in air as hes not a HC, but I would wager he does better than Freddie.

Florres has done magic with the talent he had. Hell, they had worse talent in MIA than Hue had here, and he won 4 games his first year, beating the Pats.

46 Football guys passed on M. Thomas as well. To try and paint either way as perfect in draft success, is well - painting with a broad brush.

Also, EVERY football guy, uses Analytics to a degree when drafting. Its here, its not going anywhere.

You did.

This is how it played out.

Year 5 forthcoming.

Now a senior VP; I say he has done very well for himself...

Literally every outlet has stated Depo and anylytics pushed Stefanski and Florres over Freddie, so yes. Yes we do.

Nobody is saying not to use analytics. They're saying you don't make analytics the boss.

No. They didn’t ’but add the title’ of HC, they gave him the actual responsibility of HC. I’d also be willing to be that within that pipeline in order to advance, candidate would have to demonstrate on some level the ability to advance to the next level. It’s how most normal jobs work.

I don't recall anyone saying that you it should be the boss. But to not use it a heavy tool when looking at players - is not smart.

And to try to paint it as a failure as some have, is also disingenuous.

Did you forget to use purple? I don't believe for one minute that where we are now, is anything like must have been Sashi's vision...

Interesting cause all i remember was everyone saying they were all on board with the Freddie hire ... it was a unanimous decision about a year ago ...

Now FOR THE FIRST TIME were hearing about who Depo wanted ...

Hogwash is correct dawg .... u can also slide REVISIONIST history in there ...

Brian Flores being a good analytics choice ... .... based off what ... the success all of the other D-coordinators BB has turned into great HC’s ... how long was Brian the DC in NE? ... look it up and get back to me ...

Flores being an analytical pick ... ...

What we do know is how depo felt about Wentz and how he felt about CC ...

And your argument about others passing on M. Thomas is COMPLETE and UTTER BS (or hogwash .. *L*) ...

How many of those other teams had NO WRS going into the draft ... how many of those other teams drafted 3, 4 or 5 WRs in the WORST WR DRAFT IN THE LAST 20 YEARS ...

How many of those other teams took a WR before M. Thomas was drafted ... u have a point if u narrowed it down to those teams but lumping the entire league in with Sashi on that one ... HOGWASH ... like i said ... COMPLETE AND UTTER BS ...

U best stick with the low hangin fruit with your BS bro ... I’ll call it out ...

its a real shame we’ll never find out ... ...

Sashi most certainly transcended the sport ... he transcended it so well his job in football was done so he moved on to hoops ...

A lot of guys were, I was. Ill admit that. I was wrong.

We heard about this last year. It was reported John went around and "flexed his muslces" and got the coach he wanted. That's not new.

I am literally listening to the radio right now and they JUST talked about how Depo wanted Florres and and Stefanski last year. These are beat reporters with sources, not your opinion on what is an analytical pick or not.

We do. And literally fans in Philly are P'off they kept Wentz and not Foles. When Wentz wins a big game, or stays healthy - we can see if he was the worth #2. I don't think that book has been written yet.

I literally don't even know what your talking about here

Name one GM that doesn't use analytics. Ill wait.

J/C

Lets get back to John, as its his thread.

No a good sign for buddy boy his PC was cancelled today. . . ..