If the Browns do decide to move on from Kitchens, their list of Head Coaching Candidates should be very short if Dorsey is going stay on as GM

(Which I figure he gets another chance at choosing a HC even if im not a fan)

1. Jim Caldwell - Caldwell is an offensive minded coach. He has amassed a 60-52 Regular Season Record as an NFL Head Coach and 6 playoff appearances. He guided both the Colts and the hapless Detroit Lions to the playoffs twice in each tenure. He has been a QB Coach with the Colts, Ravens, and Dolphins.

He has worked his way up the ranks from college position coach, to coordinator, to NFL position coach, to OC, to Assistant Head Coach to Coach. Caldwell is VERY GOOD with QB, and I believe he could really help Mayfield a ton. Matt Stafford had some of his best years in Detroit when Caldwell was there. This guy should certainly be on our radar, and I'd love to have him here as a HC. The guy commands respect, runs the lockeroom, players like him, he is stern, but fair at the same time. He would be an overall asset to this organization.

Jim Caldwell deserves another shot as an NFL Head Coach and we would be very lucky to have him choose Cleveland as that place. He won't let us down, I promise. the guy is an overall great guy and a great coach, the team will be well coached under Caldwell.

2. Chuck Pagano is a defensive minded coach, and he was our secondary coach the last time the Browns made the playoffs(2001). Bruce Arians and Pagano first met while coaching together with the Browns in 2001. Bruce Arians has raved about how good of a coach Pagano is. Pagano has compiled a 53-43 Reg Season record as an NFL HC, and 6 playoff appearances. Pagano being the defensive minded coach he is would probably be fine with Dorsey picking his OC, so it seems like a good match.

Pagano has always fielded very well coached teams. He is a guy players respect, and much like Caldwell, he is stern, but fair. As with Caldwell,He won't take no lip from no one, but he will come to his players defense when they are being treated unfairly.

Pagano would be a fantastic choice as a head coach for this young Browns team.

To be frank i'd take either of these guys over McCarthy or any of the other big names out there. Both of these guys are HUNGRY to get back on the Head Coach train, they gotta a lot to prove, but they have track records of steady success which is exactly what this organization needs.

I am not saying we should totally discount looking at any of the big names, but i'd take Pagano or Caldwell over any of the college guys and that includes Meyer, Riley, and Rhule.

What type of offensive philosophy do each have? How adaptable is it to the players on the roster? More importantly, will they adapt it?

How about Both, Caldwell and Pagano, and an admin, to you know just stay on as a figurehead,

Browns need all the help they can get, Just give everybody a different, specific role and nobody gets overwhelmed. (As much)

More importantly, will these guys agree to keep good players already on the Browns, in leiu of bringing in guys they had a relationship with from some other NFL team,

That's Dorseys job. The HC can make suggestions, but its Dorseys roster to fill.

Caldwell is welcome to be our QB coach. More than that, no thanks.

Pagano would depend a lot on the OC (and rest of the offensive staff) he could bring with him and whether he'd want to switch to a 3-4 base. I'd rather not switch again.

Going forward, I'm really wanting a strong defensive minded head coach. Someone who can focus on the team, invoke discipline, and allow the OC to strictly focus on the offense and play calling, and nothing more.

I know this model isn't the popular trend anymore,as it was in years past, but after Freddie, I'm not a fan of head coaches calling their own plays.

Trouble in this model is finding a solid OC, who isn't looking to jump ship and be a HC.

Baker has had Hue/Haley, Freddie last year, and Freddie this year with Monken.

This SHOULD be the last time we changes coaches for a LONG time. I want someone that's not going to moving on in another year, making Baker have to yet again another offense. I would rather it be an offensive guy, where Baker and the offense can build cohesiveness and continue that for years to come.

Yea.. and after 7 games of mixed results.. Everyone will be calling to fire that coach and get somene else

Difference would be that the offense actually showed something to keep moving forward with

It is what it is .. mixed results in the NFL brings change .. It is a business after all ...

Where some fans get confused is by thinking with all of those billions of dollars involved in today's game, that it's still a sport.

If they pick one of those 2 boobs, it only proves ownership/management does not want to win.

Or it proves how eternally hopeless they are in any sort of talent evaluation.

Just save time and hire and fire him in the same day.

Plus, it could save time ...... I mean, think of it ..... "We are proud to introduce the next head coach of the Cleveland Browns, who we are now relieving of his duties ....."

Could anything be more Cleveland than that?

I don't know where all you guys have been this entire century,but I've been sorta paying attention.
I have come to the realization,that it doesn't matter who the Browns hire,who the Browns fire,who they sign,who that let go,it's going to turn out badly.
So keep Freddie,fire Freddie,it won't matter.

I know, we should let Goddell do our HC search.

The trouble is in finding a head coach that has the whole package. This means having systems and the structure in place that allows for players and coaches to be developed to replace those that leave for bigger money and better jobs.

This was one of the things that was flawed with the "Let's promote Freddie to HC because then there's no way he can be hired away" line of thinking. Offensive coordinators are replaceable. If your OC (or DC) is doing that good of a job over a period of multiple years, some other team is probably going to want to hire that person to be their head coach and there's nothing you can really do to stop it.

We might as well just accept it. If your head coach is good enough at his job, that system/scheme is still in place. You're still recruiting talent not just on the field, but in the coaching staff and beyond as well. See New England. Coaches come and go, I've lost count how many of them went on to be head coaches somewhere but that machine is still rolling. Do we even know who is calling plays on defense over there?

Maybe Dorsey needs to work backwards .. Find the DC and OC that he will commit his name to and then find a Head Coach that fells like he can steer That Ship ?

You'll have a very hard time finding a HC worth his salt to ever take that structure.

Each HC has systems they like to run. With that in mind they want to hire an OC and DC that run those systems. Forcing coordinators on them does not make that possible.

At this juncture not only does Dorsey need to hire a qualified candidate at HC in the event that Freddie is fired, but one whose offensive and defensive philosophies line up well with the talent we have assembled.

A big picture thought process will be needed here.

Maybe we should find some "REAL PLAYERS".. Players that DONT need motivated by speeches or hand holding and give it 100 percent no matter the coach or record.

Yeah, it's all the good players that suck.

Maybe if you give them a system that can produce they can give you production.

Im sure TJ Watt would manage somehow..Or a Clay Matthews..

Mmmmm hmmmm....

Most of the time when there is a regime change the babies get tossed out with the bathwater.

Schemes change. Players that don't fit what the new group wants to run get moved out.

My thoughts are if this happens the candidates have to be screened to know this roster. Have ideas to take advantage of the talent here. So the transition is more seamless.

Look at guys who would have a plan for Baker/Chubb/Hunt/Odell/Landry/Myles etc.

We have core talent. They should not be wasted.

In addition the division is changing. Lamar and the Ravens are going to be a major problem. The Steelers will be a different team if Ben retires. If Ben plays then that needs to looked at.

There are many things that need to be considered.

This time around qualified experience is a must.

Matt Rhule at least needs to get an interview. I’ve always thought Ken Niumatalolo should get some NFL love, he seems to be a great leader. Matt Wells, who is now at Texas Tech, built Utah State into a pretty good program, I would take a look at him. Kyle Whittingham is a great coach at Utah. It might seem crazy but I would even look into Joe Brady the LSU offensive coordinator. I believe all of the above names are at least worth an interview. Innovation happens on the college level and these guys are all great leaders as well.

We all know the NFL names. They are obvious and everyone will interview for all the positions. Thinking outside the box is important in these circumstances.

Dorsey needs to hire a head coach and let that person hire his own staff. I believe part of Kitchens problem on offense has been a forced marriage between he and Todd Monken.

I don't want him, but Adam Gase will be available next Monday, if not sooner ...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footba...b6ye-story.html

The Jets owner said he would be back next year. Let’s see if that holds up.

There was a time I thought he'd be big.. . well, he made it. He's a big a-hole.

Then he should be looking to land with the steelers.

Gase to the Steelers, Mike Tomlin to the Browns - that's perfect for me.

I don't see that. The head coach needs to hire his coordinators.

You don't hire coordinators before you hire a head.

Guy's I was talking tung in cheek on the backwards hire .. Bone I'm not sure Dorsey hired Monken or Wilks to fit the players we had , that is the problem..
What ever Dorsey and Kitchen's had up their sleeve bombed .. To much rooster turn over in two season's .. Dorsey has hit on several DRAFT picks and the jury is still out on trades ( Landry was a hit )..

Let's invent a time machine and go get him!

Bring him back.

Are any of his former players still in the league for us to sign?

If we fire Kitchens which I don't think we will. We will have to make a super star hire. And that short list provided just doesn't make it...

Seems like this would be completely backwards. Head coach's picks for the top two to bring in or at least have a say in who is kept from existing staff. Still, something different might be a good changeup for Dorsey (if he is here). Kitchens may be so sour as to be the first domino with his mangling of his game duties. May cause more fallout beyond himself.

I am not sure if Chubb's title, a major feat, can be enough. I don't want another year like this with his lame calls and dumb judgment. Deliver us from more of his "1-0" tripe. I could see us getting rolled this Sunday. How bad is too bad or bad enough?

If he should be kept, what are you building on, what must absolutely be kept? And exactly what is going forward at this point?

Ya, lets get him ... i think Sashi may have hired him and hes working for the Wizards now ... *L* ....

Is dude even in football anymore ... if so, whats he doing ... i know he was OFF the field for a few years ...

U wanna hire this guy and u have the balls to tell me to go root for the Jills cause I wouldn’t debate U on the merits of firing Freddie during the game when we were BEATING THE BILLS none the less ...

Real classy dude ...

I am not endorsing this guy but I'm just saying:

Under McCarthy, the Packers went to the playoffs nine seasons, played in the NFC Championship Game four times and won Super Bowl XLV. He is also a quarterbacks coach and an offensive guy.

We could do worse.

Pretty good article:

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2019/12/24/21037106/should-freddie-kitchens-be-fired

Why do they have to still be in the league? He brought in grey haired senior citizens the last time he was here.

The Browns should be constructed as a running ballclub. They are not. Cleveland possesses one of the best running backs in the league with Nick Chubb and has a very good compliment back in Hunt. The offensive line should be built on how to get Chubb constantly into the second level. The tight end should possess a blocker-first-then-catch mentality that a lot of teams possess.

To be fair to Freddie - Dorsey took away this possibility when he traded away Zeitler. To be fair to the Browns - Freddie has done nothing to show me that he has the ability to learn from his mistakes and improve. Much like Sashi is unlikely to ever see a GM role in the NFL - Freddie isn't ever going to see a HC gig in the NFL ever again and I really doubt he will ever see a coordinator role either. But that's me - I've made my mind up on Freddie and I really, really want to cut bait. . . . I know there is a strong argument for continuity and rinsing and repeating every other year is not the path to success. But if you have the wrong guy as HC, you have the wrong guy as HC no matter how many seasons you give him. That's where I am. Wrong guy and the sooner replaced the better. jmo.

Of the coaches mentioned I still have McCarthy ranked as my top choice, Rivera as second option .... interestingly I'd forgotten Jim Harbaugh's success in SF, I'd thought I'd want nothing to do with him after his failure at MI - but some coaches are destined to be College guys and some NFL guys, there is every chance Jim is a much better NFL HC than a college guy. I'd take Jim over an unproven coordinator no matter what success they have had (Roman/Saleh).

Poll at the bottom of the article:

Should the Browns retain Freddie Kitchens?
4% Keep him (20 votes)
14% Keep him, but take away play calling duties (66 votes)
82% Fire him (393 votes)
479 votes total

I’m shocked u got sucked into the mob mentality about Freddie ... I’ll be very interested to see how u feel in a month or so after the frustration/emotions of the year starts to subside ...

There’s a reason McCarthy didn’t get a sniff here last year ...

Was it cause he told KJ he wanted the year off or was it cause the dudes he worked with for years know who he is and didn’t want him ...

I think part of the issue is that people intuitively take into account the situation that coaches find themselves in. When they are part of a strong organization, with a legitimate franchise QB, you expect playoff appearances. Coaches in such a situation for a long period of time seem to win a Super Bowl almost by accident. You could apply this to a few coaches and McCarthy is one of them.

Now, the above is not completely fair. I think there's a perception of it though and there is some merit to it. There's also more to it than that though, there's still a lot of credit to go to him for keeping the team together and so on. I agree that we could do a lot worse - there are coaches who can mess up the best of circumstances.

One knock on McCarthy is his game management. He's one of those coaches who, with 15 minutes left in the game and the team down by two after scoring a touchdown (so down 8, score touchdown, down 2 pending a try) would actually kick the extra point instead of going for 2. Just completely inexplicable behavior and it's hard to take anybody seriously who thinks kicking an extra point there is a good idea. Or take that comical decision to punt the game away against the Seahawks - some things just stick in people's minds and a small amount of bad can override a lot of good.

Like I said I am not endorsing him.

I wanted Freddie to do well. But I think he dug his grave with Haslam and will be gone.

I hear you. I agree that we could do worse. When someone has the success that McCarthy had, he is worth at least considering. Give him an interview, pick his brain a little bit, see what he has learned and thinks he can improve on.

It's hard for us fans to have a good feel on head coaching candidates. We don't get to talk to them, know what their staffs would look like, or get a feel of what they are made of.

Switch the name from McCarthy to Rodgers...

It was a good article. I get the OSU connection, but just say no to Urban Meyer, and I like Urban Meyer. His problem is he burns out. He left Fla. after winning 2 national championships. He left OSU after winning 1.

Both of those programs are programs most coach's would stick with for the rest of their career. Are you kidding me? OSU, Florida. SEC, Big 10. Those are big time positions where you have every resource in the world. Tons of money for top coaches and recruiters, facilities, travel budget.

I understand him leaving Utah after building them when he went to Florida. Florida and the SEC was a career move. Then he went bonkers and "retired", then showed up at OSU a few years later and did a great job for a great program, then...?? He became a announcer...and now he is being hailed as the next great NFL coach.

I think the guy just likes the attention. He clearly isn't committed. He has held 2 college jobs most coaches would near kill for, and he just walked away. Sorry, you don't walk away from a Gator or Buck's coaching gig without something being a little messed up. I don't want him showing up in Cleveland. He has already walked away from teams I root for twice.

JMO

Every year at this time there is a parade of all the hot young coordinators. The next saviors.

Most fail.

Occasionally there is a gem.

Next comes the list of experienced guys like Rivera and McCarthy. Proven guys who had success then reached the end with their old teams.

Guys like Reid start anew and do well. Others fail.

There is no quick fix. We should look at all of them and try to make a informed, intelligent decision.

Right now I have no answer.

But I would be surprised if Freddie returns. He has not been all bad. But he has not done enough to save his job.

Ohio State did Urban dirty by suspending him for three games, despite Urban following proper protocols. They hung him out to dry and yet Urban still stayed on the rest of the year, handed over the program to an oustanding young coach in Ryan Day, and even stayed on in an administrative role to advise varsity captains and coaches.

Us Ohio State fans can only be grateful to have had a coach like Urban Meyer.

I don't want Urban as the Browns coach though. I think he's more of a college coach honestly, his strength is recruiting and he left behind a simply phonomenal team, as we have seen this year. I don't think teams played up to their potential in past years, and wonder how he'd make the transition to the NFL game.

There are too many unknowns there, and then there's the stress of this Browns job..

Hiring Meyer would have the same affect signing Kap would with me ... I’d be done ...

That man is a POC ... what he did in recruiting was SICKENING ... he pimped his own teen age daughter out one year when recruiting, telling kids they could go to school with hotties like her and then giving her the phone to talk to them ...

He’s a POC ...

The reason he left Fla is cause the program was a mess ... u know that yet for some reason stick up for the man ... when i heard he left cause of health reasons I *L* my butt off .. what a joke that was .... sure enough shortly there after he was ready to coach again ... dudes a lying POC ...

When he was at OSU he told Stephon Diggs family he wouldn’t send him to Fla. cause there locked room had a lot of no character dudes in it ... they were almost all kids he recruited ... ...

Then what he did at OSU letting his wife beating assistant be ... he did nothing other than keep it in the closet ... help the dude, don’t give him a free pass ...

Last year no one gave Freddie a chance at first ... i think Y-town and myself were the only ones giving him a chance at first ... now this year ya’all are way to pre-mature about his immediate firing ... it mary happen but it ain’t near the sure thing ya’all are making it out to be ..

The problem I have with college coaches is culture shock.

In college the coach has full authority. He is the boss. The players are not paid professionals.

It is not a matter of innovation or X's and O's.

It is a matter of how you relate to the players.

Pete Carroll was different because he bounced back and forth before he figured it out.

I prefer experienced NFL guys who have been head coaches. Andy Reid type guys. They present the least risk.
They have immediate credibility with NFL players.
That alone goes a long way.

I don't know what's worse, Florida fans who think that Urban winning them two national championships and leaving behind the #1 recruiting class in the country wasn't good enough, or Notre Dame fans who are hysterical that their program is irrelevant now - partly because Urban Meyer recruited a lot of the best athletes in this part of the country.

If the thief is involved all bets are off .... hopefully dude learned were way better off with him and his wife keeping their nose out of things they know nothing about ...

Up until he hired KJ the thief was the worst owner in the history of sports ... what an EMBARRASSMENT his reign has been ...

Lets hope KJ and Freddie or whoever is our next coach can remedy that ...

Its never to early to start getting fired up for next year ...

LETS GOOOOOOOOoooooooo

Well, you are right in a way. He left Florida because Nick Saben showed up in Alabama and started signing the players he wanted. I stick up for him because we did win 2 titles and I like the guy.

I think he took the OSU job because OSU is the lone gorilla in Ohio and maybe even one of 2-3 in the Big 10. The SEC has 6-7 teams you compete against. Ohio is good recruiting ground. You can win staying in-state. Florida is also good recruiting ground, but in addition to the Gators, you have Fla St and Miami....both strong recruiters and pulls. Central Fla and Fla Atlantic aren't slouch.

Good points. Ohio State does have some advantages in recruiting, being the top program in Ohio. tOSU's brand is strong. Meyer also recruited heavily out of state. That was actually one of the things Day has emphasized recently, basically focusing more on Ohio.

It's a trade-off between going after absolute top-end talent vs having a sort of hometown bond and keeping those players off other Big Ten teams. Michigan State was getting some of them for a while, which came back to bite Ohio State one year.

Anyway, I think he stays in the college game if he ever does coach again. There were some rumors of him to USC a while back? I don't know how much truth there were to those.

I seriously doubt he's a candidate to become the next Browns coach though.

A thought about the Browns job, specifically:

The analytics crew wanted Sean McDermott instead of Hue Jackson, and Kevin Stefanski instead of Freddie Kitchens. I wonder who the new hot candidates are and how those teams are doing.

Stefanski's Vikings offense has looked pretty darn good for most of the year, though had a pretty bad outing on Monday Night Football. He's done good work with Kirk Cousins though, who has quietly had an outstanding season.

Don't want Stefanski or McCarthy. If I had any say, my preference would be Gregg Williams or Mike Pettine, Ya, I know...been there done that.

There is no way Haslam will sit back and let things be handled by anyone else.

Not in this circumstance.

He will get with Dorsey but he will do as he sees fit. He is the owner.

An owner who doesn’t know his butt from a hole in the ground ...

I HOPE he defers to KJ if not were back in hot water ...

The thief needs to learn his place ... hire his people and let them do their jobs like the owners of EVERY OTHER SUCCESFUL FRANCHISE DO ...

The problem is they have 200 days of the offseason to dismantle, rebuild, and reboot, anything the team has figured out how to do.

you realize Haslam has done exactly that...this product is of "king" john's making. #notmyking This team needs a experienced Football executive as president. Not a glorified scout playing GM. Let Dorsey pick players, let President do everything else

Only 2 choices: Rivera or McCarthy.

Don't give me Urban Meyer or Jim Caldwell FFS.

For as good as Chubb is, he's ranked 32nd in run success percentage (or was last I checked on football outsiders advanced RB metrics). His multiple great individual runs cover up a ton of getting hit in the backfield runs which fans seem to forget. Link

Imagine what he'll do if we can shore up the line.

Will not happen D.

A tiger can't change his stripes. Guys like Haslam are alpha dogs.

I'd rather talk to Brian Billick (yuck). Someone who won without Aaron Rodgers or Superman Cam.

People want to feed Chubb then talk about pass happy coaches who've run the spread.

Or maybe they see coaches who used the talent available on the roster and used it to maximum effect? I'll take a proven, successful HC over any experiment coordinator hire regardless of who they had on the roster at QB. Cam is not a great QB and never was - I'd wager Cam has about the same QB rating as Kap as a throwing QB. Having Rodgers and taking him to however many Division Championship games seems to indicate success not failure given some of the defenses that team fielded.

Just so I understand your post 100% - you are suggesting that if Dorsey gets his way you are certain Freddie gets another year. And the only way Freddie loses his job is if Haslam sticks his nose into it?

I'd disagree with that thought process. I think there is every chance Dorsey wants to save his job and will feel he HAS to jettison Freddie. The list of issues with first year HC Freddie is long and has been listed and discussed .... I've not seen anything that points to why we should expect Freddie to improve if he keeps his job other than for the sake of Continuity. If I missed it and you or others have offered something I apologize.

As to the comparisons to Bill and other HC 'greats' .... I can't prove it but I'd bet money for every lousy first year head coach that went on to be great - there's 20 that went on to be just as bad as their first year said they'd be. I don't buy Bill as an example of why we should keep FK.

* And dismissing rationale thought process that argues for firing Freddie as simply being "the mob" is a cop out imo.

If thats the case we’ll NEVER WIN ... the thief backed into KJ due to the thiefs ineptness with ALL his previous hires with Sashi being the worst ... talk about not being qualified to do the job you were hired for .... that man had about as much chance as a snowball in Hell ...

The SMART alpha males know to stay in their lanes ... actually its the Alpha males that have MORE BRAINS than EGO that know to stay in their own lanes ... there all smart ... its not like the thief, Jerry Jones and Snyder are stupid ... they just have too much ego to stay in their own lanes ...

U think Kraft, the late Paul Allen (he never gets mentioned but what a great owner he was), Lurie and the Rooney’s aren’t alpha males ....

The thief knows truck stops not how to run an NFL team and until he realizes that were nothing more than his personal toy ...

Hopefully KJ changes that ... talent wise hes off to a GREAT START ....if Freddie gets canned lets hope it was KJs decision cause if it came from above him ... ROUGHT RO RURU ... not good ...

U didn't understand that part at all .... see my reply to bone ... i posted that before i read yours ...



Were good then cause it wasn’t my thought process either ...



IF KJ fires him cause he’s afraid he’’s going to lose his job and not because he doesn’t think he’s the man for the job then were in deep crap anyhow .... no GM worth his salt would fire his HC cause he’s afraid of losing his job .... thats not a leader ... it’s IMPOSSIBLE to lead when your always looking back over your shoulder ....



Don’t know about others but i offered mine on the other thread .... no clue if none else has cause i don’t read much anymore but i know i did ...




I would agree with that ... we disagree that I’m dismissing “rational thought” processes ... i don’t see rational thought after a certain point .. Y’all (1 for 1 Peen ... *L*) ... are blaming him for pretty much everything ... he’s getting way to much blame and zero credit for anything ...

What I’m doing is calling what u believe is rational thought process what it actually is .... Freddie who put a huge ass target on his own back with his long butt list of mistakes being the lightening rod for the most disappointing season we’ve had since our return by far ... the expectations (and rightfully so) were out of this world high and this team didn't come close to achieving them .... and the mob is blaming him for way to much ...

Yeah - my wording on Dorsey firing him to keep his job didn't translate well .... I mean that Dorsey *if* is convinced Freddie is the wrong guy and thinks that to have a winning/better product on the field he feels the need to let FK go.

As to blaming everything on FK... I don't think that or feel that way. I can even handle a lot of bad. Hell - I was for bringing Hue back after 2 seasons one of which was an 'offa'. . . . My single biggest issue is not seeing virtually any improvement on areas he has struggled. Whether it's a balanced O and abandoning the run game, or game management or adjustments. to coming out flat against average or below average teams and losing . . . . Penalties and discipline did improve for a little while but they were back in force last week ... and that's not mentioning the offense. I don't think we have an identity and I don't think we put ourselves in the best chance to win. Even with great-superb starts like Seattle (the one game I was at - and the first half was a joy) we find ways to lose.

Anyway ... whatever happens let's hope the ship turns whoever ends up at the helm.

Hard to figure what Dorsey will do?

Hard to swallow when your hire struggles so. Dorsey is a smart guy he knows the NFL well. He has his ear to ground and will know more about "inside the Browns" and what is behind the scenes with Freddie. Lot's of things we will never know.

He also has a direct take on Haslam. He will read the tea leaves and make a decision based upon all the factors.

I stated before he may back Freddie. But he will have a hard time selling Haslam. If he believes Freddie blew it he will cut his loss like Corbett.

I don't believe Freddie survives. I agree he did some good things. He had some solid game plans. But the cons out weigh the pros by a large margin.

At this point I have nobody in mind to replace him.

I have always admired the Saints offense.

Pete Carmichael Jr. has been there a long time as OC. He has a strong background. Worked under Marty. Lot's a background on offense qb coach. In addition he has worked with Drew. Who is one of the greatest qb's to ever play the position.

He would be worth the call.

Way too much? Possibly, but virtually every area of deficiency with this team this season can be traced back to a point where Freddie has (or should have as a HC) influence.

I'll be generous and spot you Baker's regression not being a Freddie Fault. Baker still has not played so poorly as to explain how the lack of mental and emotional fortitude of this roster. It doesn't explain the lack of preparedness week after week. Yes this team is good on script, but it's not prepared to play 4 quarters of football. Even in those drives where Baker is on point, the play calling still looks disjointed and the play calling has very little dimension to it. He doesn't call plays that set up other plays.

Every week through the Patriots game he denied that there were discipline issues. While I don't expect a coach to ever just flat out admit certain team faults, one does expect a coach to at least give an answer that admits it but doesn't, and everyone can understand why. Instead, Freddie takes it so far as to insult anyone who would suggest such a thing with his BS about "I don't coach penalties". Then when he finally does reach out to the Big Tuna, the answer he received made it apparent that he had done little to nothing to Address the discipline issues.

SOrry Diam, you may dismiss it as the mob, and not rationale thought because YOU aren't thinking that way, but there has not been a single poster that has not been able to rationally articulate any number of reasons why they feel Freddie needs to go. We have yet to see a single poster articulate any basis for keeping him.

[quote=DiamDawg

There’s a reason McCarthy didn’t get a sniff here last year ...

Was it cause he told KJ he wanted the year off or was it cause the dudes he worked with for years know who he is and didn’t want him ...

[/quote]

By what I've read, he did get a sniff here last here, but he was told he had to keep Freddie as hid Offensive Coordinator, and that he would not do. I think we've all seen that McCarthy was right.

BTW .. Drop the King John bit .. King John ruled England from 1199 - 1216. His rule was so bad that the Barons revolted and the forced him to sign the Magna Carta. No King since has accepted the Royal Name of John upon naming. That is, of course, unless you are calling Dorsey King John because you think he is a horrible General Manager.

JC

I don't think Haslam has had much to do with football decisions since Dorsey arrived. What we are seeing is the product of Dorseys efforts.

The decision on Freddie will be Dorseys. No doubt Jimmy and Dee will have their opinions, but I doubt they would over rule Dorsey and go against what he thinks needs to be done.

Now, if whatever we do doesn't produce desired results, the question the Haslams have to answer is do they stick with John Dorsey?

If we keep Freddie, Dorsey looks foolish. If we fire Freddie, Dorsey looks foolish. What John needs to do is make the decision that erases that by winning next year. If that doesn't happen, Dorsey is done.

Well said ... Dorsey looks bad either way, so you might as well just do what’s best for the franchise

Nothing bad about telling Greg Williams we were wrong.

Haslam moved to the back room because of the success of Dorsey. The second half rise of the team. Freddie's perceived involvement and results. The press and hype created expectations.

Those expectations were not met. Now the media has turned.

Freddie has looked bad. The results have turned to failures. Bad loses to weak teams. Freddie's public image has taken a beating.

Haslam went with Dorsey on the Freddie hire but he may well have had reservations.

I don't see Haslam as step back owner. He made mistakes and his results failed. So when "he" hired Dorsey and that went well. He then stepped back and gave Dorsey the lead.

All of that is now gone.

If Haslam wants to make a change; he will.

He will bring Dorsey in and listen. How that goes who knows? Dorsey may well turn on Freddie.

However, the Browns are Haslam's team.

He will make the final decision. IMO.

Jim Caldwell is really who I think we should be looking at.

He has two Super Bowl rings as an Assistant(Colts & Ravens)

He got to the Super Bowl as a head coach in 2009 with the Colts and lost to the Saints.

He has a proven track record of steady success, I mean he got the God awful Detroit Lions to the Playoffs twice in four years.

Caldwell is exactly the kinda coach we need. I think he can co-exist with Dorsey. He is very good with QB's, I really believe he can help Mayfield a lot, and he isn't adverse to running the ball.

This town will like Caldwell, and Caldwell hires an OC lets them call the plays so he can focus on coaching the team.

This guy would be a great hire for us. I have always been a fan of Caldwell, his teams have always been well coached.

Peyton Manning has raved about how good of a coach Jim Caldwell is, Manning said Caldwell made him a better QB and a better decision maker with the ball:



this is the guy we want im telling ya. He will have a field day with Chubb, Hunt, OBJ, and Landry, and Caldwell can probably rescue Mayfields career.

As I have said before ; This years Coaching Staff and Players roster was Dorsey's .. 2020 roster and Coaching staff will be DORSEY'S !

j/c

IMO the decision whether to keep Freddie or let him go will all boil down to a simple formula. A GM brings in the talent and assembles your roster. It's up to the HC to maximize the results that talent achieves. In the case of a first time NFL HC you look at progress and growth over the course of his first season to help determine if you think he has the potential to maximize the roster potential.

The answer to those questions determines the decision you make regarding your HC's future. When looking at those questions from my vantage point, I think the answer will be that Dorsey decides to move on away from Freddie into another direction.

Because the job of the GM is to look at what a HC has done with the talent he's been given.

You say some whacked stuff on here, but Caldwell is actually something I can get behind.

I like the idea of Caldwell, he's been successful at every stop. His worse season was 2-14 after manning was out for year. But he took detroit to 11-5..i'll take that here. He's only had one season losing more than 9 games. We actually interviewed him before hiring kitchens. So I'm not sure I trust Dorsey with another coaching hire.

I can’t think of a more bleh hire than Jim Caldwell.

thank you

The guy is a quality coach. We should have hired him instead of Kitchens.

He is probably the best we can get though.

There is a 1% chance McCarthy is coming here. We burned that bridge last year when Dorsey offered him the job with the requirement he keep Kitchens as his offensive Coordinator. McCarthy declined, don't think McCarthy with his resume is interested working in a place where a GM is going to try and dictate his staff to him. It would one thing if he was just a coordinator or 1st time HC, but he isn't.

I say McCarthy ends up with the NY Jets or the Carolina Panthers.

I'd take Caldwell over any of the college options...Rhule, Meyer, they are the wrong kina hire for this team.

Caldwell will be that stabilizing factor, and we will win with him. He has only had one season of losing 9 or more games.

He may not be a flashy hire, but he is the best NFL Head coaching option out there right now. 2 Super Bowl Rings, been to the Super Bowl as a head coach, took two different franchises in different conferences to the playoffs. What more would people want?

Good post Pit.

One thing that is interesting is the response from Wilks today. Saying Freddie is the right guy and it takes time to build a culture. He knows what one and done is like.

Of course his comments have to be taken with a grain of salt. Because he would end up out the door as well.

With or without Myles the defense underachieved. I had major issues with a lot of the things I saw from Wilks scheme.

The hard pill for Dorsey is he went through a very detailed process to decide on Freddie. Super important to him because his intent was of course to build a sustainable highly competitive team. Dorsey had a lot riding on Freddie. So for him to pull the plug after a year: not easy at all.

The big meeting will take place Monday after the season ends this Sunday.

Both parties Dorsey and Haslam are grinding right now.

I have mixed feelings. I hate the thought of firing Freddie and going through another coach search. for many reasons. One being because you can have your guy in sight and don't land him.

The others are obvious. All the crap that goes with change.

Freddie? His "image" is not the bright, young, innovative, genius. The Sean McVay look.

Freddie seems like a good guy. I think he knows the game. But once in the saddle man; it is a different deal.

Freddie kept saying very early on "adversity will strike".
He probably didn't expect a knockout punch.

I wanted Freddie to succeed badly. But damn, he really made some bone head moves.

Can he learn and really grow from all that has taken place?
That is a really hard question to answer. In fact the only way to answer that question is for him to remain as coach and find out.

Youth and health. He'll be 65 in a couple weeks, and he had to take a medical leave from his job with Miami this year due to an undisclosed health issue.

I believe we are pretty much on the same page here. I'm actually not going to be upset whether Freddie stays or goes. I could understand the decision either way. I'm just not sure I saw steady progress over the season with which to give Freddie a vote of confidence.

I have to keep in mind that the NFL isn't the same as what we grew up with. Of course the goal of winning is the same, however the money involved has changed the sport we grew up loving into more of a corporate structure than a sport. Ungodly amounts of money are paid to both players and coaches it's to the point that being patient in terms of development and growth seem to be no longer tolerated.

I feel that works in terms of both players and coaches. The days of players remaining with the same team over the course of their career is more the exception than the rule. That works from both the aspect of the teams and the players.

It's an evolution that has come over time and one I'm not so sure I'm happy about. Some of the great coaches and players of the game would never be anything but an afterthought given the way things work today. The time it took them to show their true potential would never be tolerated in today's microwave, in an instant NFL.

Spot on Pit.

I think of Landry, Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Jimmy Johnson. Their beginnings were real rocky.

I read when Walsh wondered if he would ever win a game.

The NFL culture of today is for sure "Not For Long".

The reason for the Steelers continued success is the Rooney family and their insistence to stay the course and develop.

Our failures are just the opposite.

So I agree I can accept a decision on Freddie either way.

65 is young for an NFL Head Coach

Furthermore, Jim Caldwell is back to full health again, and the Fritz Polard Allaince Chairman Rod Graves has him on the list on to be a head coaching candidate.

Caldwell wants to be back on the sideline in 2020

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/forme...elines-in-2020/

He probably just had a routine stint put in or something, the guy is perfectly fine. Both Arians and Pagano fought cancer and came back to coach.

Health won't be an issue for Caldwell.

Are you on pcp? lsd? acdc? naacp? ywca?

Its stent, not "stint", and we have no idea if that is actually what he had done. Nor do we have any way of knowing that he is "perfectly fine". I hope he is, but I don't know and neither do you. I don't think his age alone disqualifies him as long as his health is good, but 65 is not young in anyone's book.

Bruce Arians - 67
Bill Belichick - 67
Bill Callahan - 63 (won't be a head coach in 2020)
Pete Carroll - 68
Vic Fangio - 61
Brian Flores - 38
Freddie Kitchens - 45
Jason Garrett - 53
Adam Gase - 41
Jon Gruden - 56
John Harbaugh - 57
Kliff Kingsbury - 40
Matt LaFleur - 40
Perry Fewell - 57 (will not be a head coach in 2020)
Anthony Lynn - 51
Doug Marrone - 55
Sean McDermott - 45
Sean McVay - 33
Matt Nagy - 41
Bill O'Brien - 50
Matt Patricia - 45
Sean Payton - 55
Doug Pederson - 51
Dan Quinn - 49
Frank Reich - 58
Andy Reid - 61
Kyle Shanahan - 40
Pat Shurmur - 54
Zac Taylor - 36
Mike Tomlin - 47
Mike Vrabel - 44
Mike Zimmer - 63

Jim Caldwell would be the fourth oldest coach on this list. The average age is 50. Jim Caldwell is not young for an NFL head coach by any definition of the word young.

Jim Caldwell is who you hire if you want to be average. We are already average.

Clueless Caldwell would be a horrible hire.

His past "success" was a result of having Peyton Manning as his QB and a decent Lions team already in place, which descended rapidly upon his arrival.

Anyone have an interest into looking at the Saints Coaching Staff ..

Pete Carmichael / Dan Campbell ?

I do. I have stated that I have always admired the Saints offense. Carmichael has been there a long time and came from Marty S.

In addition working with Drew Brees is as good as it can get.

So yes. I stated he should be looked at if it is decided to let Freddie go.

I can say yes to that. Bring Brees along for any excuse.

I am a big an of Campbell. Campbell and Arians were my top 2 choices last year.

Carmichael feels more like a top coordinator than HC material. Kinda like Romeo Crennel

I'm just looking at some names who have HC experience. How come no one ever mentions Leslie Frazier?

He had one of the biggest turnarounds for the Vikings back in 2012 taking them to the playoffs. After being fired after going 5-10-1, he was never given another chance at HC.

The thing is we know how much time it takes to change a culture: It's exactly the amount of time between the moment Hue Jackson was fired and Gregg Williams first practice as interim HC. Now it helped that half the team was already subject to how he ran things already and so it was a super easy transition for them. But he was also able to bring the other half of the team right in to the fold.

This isn't a particular endorsement of GW, but rather an illustration that if you put the right person in the right place, it doesn't take all that long to establish a culture.

Dan Campbell would at least have the personality and approach we’d look for ... not sure if he’ll be considered or not

Bonefish and Pit make some good points. I am not overly opposed to the idea of bringing Freddie back. Continuity and culture build does take time. But we have to make sure the culture they are trying to build is the culture we want. I see a large lack of discipline. Comments from Blough, who feels there is more structure in losing Detroit is a concern to me. The article posted earlier stated a lack of tackling, and a lack of football strategy. These REALLY concern me. I mean he was out coached by Kliff Kingsbury...handily outcoached in MANY games this year. There has been criticisms from outsiders that collectively say there is no cohesiveness on this team.

These are aspects of the team that fall squarely on the Head Coach. There are also great points when considering First year coaches and past History of first Year Coaches. Names like Parcells, Chuck Noll, Jimmy Johnson, Landry...etc were mentioned. But I think we can all agree that they did not START with a stacked roster as ours. And their bad starts can not wholly be staked on their decisions. Obviously they had some bad decisions as they learned on the job. Perhaps our roster just magnifies those decisions in relation to those in the past.

So in considering keeping Freddie, we have to ask....What has he learned? I can't answer that question because we would expect an improvement every week. But we haven't. The Offense looks lost after the first drive...The Defense looks lost. I am not sure I can point to a single part of the team that has improved from week one to week 17? (Special Teams has been consistent) How did we go from a glutton of receivers in the preseason to looking to undrafted FA's to back up Landry and OBJ??? We had a glutton on the DLine...now we have Sheldon and Larry...and a bunch of practice squad cast offs...

These are questions for Dorsey...And Dorsey will also have to determine what Freddie has learned. And what he plans to do to correct.

If Freddie stays, I would like to know or have some insight on to these things...(not that we will get them...LOL)

As far as replacement if that is the route we choose....I think I go back to the article posted by bonefish. I really like Greg Roman and the DC in SF Robert Saleh.

Both have been successful for multiple years. And I look back to what Roman did last year(and in continuation to this year). By taking the people they had and maximizing their capabilities, I think it is the epitome of what coaches are supposed to do. He built a system for the clay he was given. He didn't try to shape the clay for something it could not do. And now Lamar Jackson is an MVP consideration.

Saleh has done similar things in San Fran making one of the best D's in the League.

These are guys that have "built".

JMO ...

He went 3-13, 10-6, and 5-10-1 in his three full seasons as Vikings coach. That's pretty underwhelming compared to some of the other past head coaches that are available. He's the DC in Buffalo now and that defense is playing pretty well, so he might get another shot somewhere.

Selah's has been DC for 3 years now, and his defenses have been ranked (scoring) 25, 28, and 6th this season.

They didn't throw him away after 1 or 2 seasons.

Good post.

Many factors at play.

The wild card is Haslam. Dorsey gained power with early results. The question becomes how much of that remains?

Haslam has the power. How he decides to use it??

Yup ... KJ will know as he has all the info ... i trust KJ ... like we have a choice ... *L* ...

The problem is

we have no clue if Freddies lost the LR ...
we have no clue if Freddie is to much a bud and too little a HC
We have no clue how much losing Calloway and Higgs getting hurt in game 1 and OBJ not being right all year long hurt ...
we have no clue how much if anything Freddie had to do with Bakes regression ...
We have no clue how much the injuries piling up every week had to do with some saying Freddie didn’t improve enough ...

There’s a ton we know nothing about .... U and the rest of the mob need someone to blame and Freddie put a big ole target on his back with all his mistakes and thats as far as Y’’all ( 2 for 2 Peen .. ) ... wanna look ... Freddies gonna be the lighting rod for every single thing that went wrong ...



IF one of those factors is KJ looking over his shoulder and making FOOTBALL DECISIONS based off what the truck stop owner thinks is right ... once again ... WERE DONE ...

That would also mean KJ is a punk with no backbone ... i don’t think KJ‘s a gutless punk thats going to fire Freddie if he believes in Freddie and the thief don’t ...

Just because owners have the authority to do what they want cause its their toy ... it doesn't mean they should be making football decisions ... the GOOD OWNERS that WIN DON’T DO THAT ...



Sell the thief? ... good lord ... if he needs to sell the thief were in trouble ... if he needs to let the thief know what he's doing and why then we have a shot ...



I have no clue whats gonna happen between now and the end of next week ... the bigger question is ... would u feel that way if u had all the info KJ has? ...



I think your frustrated and upset and need someone to lash out and Freddie is the logical target for many reasons including the fact he did so many things wrong and was hard headed ....

Actually I don't think I am part of a mob.

In fact I am rather indifferent about Freddie staying or going.

I am only speculating on how I think it will go down.

Bear in mind who hired Dorsey. And then how Dorsey gained power.

I don't trust Haslam. However, I do recognize that he could very well insert himself into all decisions.

If you have followed along on some of what I went back and forth with Pit about. I think I have made my conclusions pretty clear.

I could make a case to keep Freddie or fire him.

If he remains I don't have a problem with that because they have much more information to base a decision than I do.

We interviewed him last year and we hired Freddie Kitchens. So obviously he's not better than Kitchens. . .

We interviewed him last year and we hired Freddie Kitchens. So obviously he's not better than Kitchens. . . [/quote

or he could be like McCathy .. and not want Kitchens for his OC

Happy Birthday!

I guess none of us know for sure, but I disagree. The decision was made last year that Dorsey made the football calls. I just don't think the Haslams cut his legs out from under him at this point.

No doubt the owner has input. No doubt the owner and GM have private, closed door talks. Sometimes those talks might influence the GM's final decision...that is why you talk things out, right?

I don't know what is going to happen late Sunday night or Monday morning. I am confident that Dorsey is going to be the one behind the decision and the Haslams will yield to his decision if it is in fact different from their opinion.

Haha yeah obviously

Video speaks volumes. From Genard Avery, to Hollywood Higgins and Damarious Randall.. and now Njoku... Freddie and Dorsey have found ways to sit and frustrate some of our best talent.

This cannot be allowed to "go forward" with the "1-0" nonsense as the status quo. If the extent of what FK is capable of doing is reflection and self-evaluation, then he is lousy at it. The dumb stuff and bad judgment keeps coming. If we screw the pooch Sunday, he doesn't have enough dirt to dig the hole any deeper.

I would like some confidence in our sidelines. I lost that a while back. Placekickers you like?

Happy birthday, superbrown.

Two NFL sources told me last night that they expect more than just a head coaching change in Cleveland. 2020 will be interesting.

https://twitter.com/mlombardiNFL/status/1210917047208685568

The Athletic's Michael Lombardi reports the Browns are expected to make "more than just a head-coaching change" this offseason.
The Browns have backed Freddie Kitchens despite a disappointing first full season, but it wouldn't be surprising to see them move on. Kitchens hasn't been able to keep the locker room together, with sideline spats with Odell Beckham and Jarvis Landry in recent weeks. Baker Mayfield has also regressed under Kitchens, who's playcalling has been at the center of Cleveland's struggles. Kitchens is very much on the hot seat going into Black Monday. In addition to Kitchens, it sounds like GM John Dorsey's job isn't safe.

https://www.rotoworld.com/football/nfl/p..._medium=twitter

I don’t read much anymore ... missed it ...



Up til now u have only made the case to fire him, hence why i lumped u in with the mob ...



I agree ... only KJ knows whats really going on ... i just hope he makes the decision for purely football reasons and if he still thinks Freddie can become the man as opposed to him keeping Freddie cause Freddie was his hire or hes worried about the thief ...

I’m with Peen on this one .. I think (hope/pray) the thief will let KJ make this decision ...

just clickin'

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/12/27/one-last-look-at-the-pre-week-17-hot-seat/

One last look at the pre-Week 17 hot seat
Posted by Mike Florio on December 27, 2019, 8:56 PM EST

Like Black Friday, Black Monday now starts a day early. So when Sunday rolls around, who will be out?

Here’s a look at the candidates to be coaching elsewhere after the 2019 season ends for their respective teams.

Pat Shurmur, Giants: It’s being regarded as a given that Shurmur will be fired. The Giants haven’t said he’s safe, which means that he’s in danger, grave or otherwise. He’s done poorly in two years on the job, tying the team record for consecutive losses (nine) and winning fewer games than Ben McAdoo, who unlike Shurmur didn’t get to finish his second season. It would be a surprise if Shurmur stays put.

Freddie Kitchens, Browns: The experiment has gone poorly. But dysfunctional teams do dysfunctional things, and it would be no surprise if the Browns fail to admit their mistake and move on — like they did with Hue Jackson after 2016. And after 2017. The bigger challenge for the Browns comes from the lingering disagreements between G.M. John Dorsey and chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta regarding big-picture questions, like who the coach should be.

Doug Marrone, Jaguars: Some think that if he was going to go, he would have gone with Tom Coughlin. Others think Marrone remains in trouble. If the organization plans to give Gardner Minshew a chance to become the franchise quarterback, it makes sense to keep Marrone and G.M. Dave Caldwell around.

Jason Garrett, Cowboys: With a contract expiring when the season ends, Garrett’s tenure definitely ends if the Cowboys fail to make it to the playoffs. Even if they do, Garrett likely needs to get to the NFC title game to get a third contract, even though the Cowboys haven’t gotten that far since 1995.

Mike Zimmer, Vikings: His contract expires after the 2020 season, and there was a clear sense in league circles that failure to make the playoffs could prompt ownership to look elsewhere. So what if the Vikings flame out in the wild-card round? Zimmer could end up becoming the latest coach to enter the last year of his contract, a dynamic that has played out more and more frequently in recent years.

Anthony Lynn, Chargers: It seems like there’s a surprise firing or resignation every year. This year, league insiders are watching the Chargers. Lynn was 12-4 a year ago, but the Chargers have failed in 2019 — and they continue to fail to resonate in L.A. While Lynn doesn’t deserve it, it could be coming.

Dan Quinn is safe in Atlanta, Matt Patricia will return in Detroit, and Adam Gase will get a second season with the Jets. Another surprise (or two) can’t be ruled out; it could come from the Steelers letting Mike Tomlin head to Carolina (or Washington), the Saints allowing Sean Payton to coach the Cowboys, Bill Belichick handing the reins to his son, Steve, in New England, Andy Reid winning a Super Bowl and walking away, or some other unexpected development that currently isn’t on the radar screen. Whatever the outcome, two spots (Washington and Carolina) already are open, and several more inevitably will arise — starting Sunday.

Of course it's not safe although I doubt that he's going anywhere. It's important to keep in mind that the product on the field is Dorsey's responsibility and that success/failure reflects ultimately on him...

I want them to keep Dorsey. He's a decent GM. But Freddie can go.

Regarding Dorsey, I'm actually neutral. I admit to being a Sashi-ite (thanks, Diam), but I'm trying to be objective. I had the same unsettling feeling when Dorsey was hired as I did when Mangini's hire was announced. I do believe that Dorsey has a nose for talent but do not always agree on the way that he obtained it. Having said that, I do expect Dorsey to be retained for next season...

You do realize that the Bills coach, who many wanted here, uses the same 1-0 "nonsense" philosophy, right?

If Freddie is fired than the Freddie Fanclub will
Cry "oh no where's the continunity"

Freddie will go down as one the worst head coaching hires since the return.
He's arrogant. Refuses to acknowledge that he gets out coached every Sunday.
And he had zero respect from the players
Cause he frankly he didn't earn the HC position in their eyes

I just hope DePodesta sticks around & would love for him to begin to get a lot more input on what goes on in the organization.

Also some other coaching candidates that intrigue me as well. Stefanski & Mike McDaniel being 2.

https://twitter.com/BrendanLeister/status/1210946669031936000

Oh great, let's blow everything up yet again .... it's always worked so well in the past.

I'd rank Pat Shurmur and Freddie Kitchens as the second and third worst coaches since our return, in some order. I'm giving Shurmur the second worst grade since he had two years to showcase and Freddie only one.

There's no real competition for the bottom spot.

Sashi-ite ... i even spelled that wrong ... *L* ...

Why would KJ be on the hot seat ... thats a serious question to u and others that believe we should even think of letting him go ...

I see nothing near egregious enough to even consider letting him go ...

Like all GM’s he’s had his misses on personal ... with what he walked into (best situation ever) he’s done an OUTSTANDING JOB upgrading the talent on this team .... INCREDIBLE ACTUALLY ...

Then we have an absolutely miserable season where we underperformed for a plethora of reasons and thats enough to even talk him about getting canned ...

To me that’s PURE EMOTION talking .... i don’t see that at all ...

Billicheck wouldn’t believe in anything as corny as that .... he never has his team focused on the next game there always looking two or three games down the road ... thats what makes them so great ... *L* ...

One of the menZas in one of the mob mentality threads said we should have looked at Arians cause he was a very good HC ... yet when Arians was here he was run out of town by pretty much the entire board cause he Had no right to be an OC .... u see the irony here, kinda hard not too ... *L* ...

I agree and don't see anything that Dorsey has done that would warrant him being fired. . . the only thing I could think of would be if Haslam was against Freddie being the HC - and Dorsey tied himself so strongly to getting Freddie that their fates were at that point joined at the hip.

I would think it's more likely DePodesta is on the hot seat than Dorsey. For all the glory he gets on here, all those years he was running the analytics, until Dorsy got here the overall talent of this team suffered.

Lombardi didn't mention a name when he made his comment and everyone just jumped to a conclusion on who he actually meant.

[quote=DiamDawg]

Why would KJ be on the hot seat ... Because he has the ultimate responsibility for the product on the field.

he’s done an OUTSTANDING JOB upgrading the talent on this team .... Yes, but he has the responsibilty for the fact our record has not improved to match the talent.

an absolutely miserable season where we underperformed...That is a coaching function and KJ has responsibilty for the coaches.

So in your world you want to fire the guy who assembled the talent rather than keep him and replace the HC?

Passion tends to not lead to rational thinking.

I don’t agree for a few reasons ....

- the thief loves shiny toys and depo is a shiny toy ... hes considered the king of analytics and the thief loves having “that” guy work for him .... the fact he never won a thing in baseball and destroyed two franchises never enters into play cause his analytics worked wonders in Oakland .... but i digress ... Depo’s safe ...

- firing Depo would barely cause a ripple in the press or anywhere else .... it would be like the 13th story on nfl today for a day or two .... firing KJ would be a tsunami compared to that ..

I do see your point though .... problem is ... we have no clue how it works internally .... i believe KJ is calling the shots and is the final decision maker so in my world he’d be the one the clickbait article is reffering to .... but u have others like peen that think Depo has more say in the football decisions than I do ... how much more is a question only they can answer ...

I wonder where Depo ranks in the analytics hierarchy of football ... he didn’t fair well at all in baseball after Oakland ... he actually STUNK after Oakland and more than once ... but when u question him with FACTS your just told u don’t understand .... *L* ...

I can’t argue with any of your premises ... i agree with them but i also take many other things into account ... thats for another discussion ...

So after a bad 2nd year where expectations were clearly not even close to being met we should consider firing the gm who has done such an outstanding job acquiring talent that he raised the expectations to heights we only dreamed about before this season? ...

That may be a little quick ... no? .... i mean look where we came from ....

Thanks for the reply .... we just don't agree on this one ...

Happy New Year dawg ....

I get the feeling this is a "If Kitchens goes, then I go" ultimatum from Dorsey. I absolutely want Dorsey to stay, as he's been the best talent evaluator we've had in some time, but if he wants to die on the hill to keep Kitchens, I don't understand his motivation. I can't imagine Haslam wanting to get rid of Dorsey after the job he's done the last two years UNLESS he's stuck his heels in the ground and refused to oust Kitchens.

Kitchens has been a disaster. This is probably the most talented roster we've had in some time, put together by Dorsey himself, and Kitchens might wind up with a worse record than we did last year with a lesser roster, and an interim head coach. So either the coaching staff is terrible and can't coach to the same level as the talent ... or Dorsey is actually terrible at evaluating talent. I'm pretty sure it's the former, but if that's the case, why wouldn't Dorsey correct that issue? Keep the guy that's making your own abilities look questionable?

That point is very debatable...very...and I would say no where near "outstanding". I won't derail this thread...but I've opined in the Roster thread if you wanna read my BS.

I don't want KJ fired...but his seat should most-definitely be warmer than just warm. JMO

It's over. It's all over now.

I have said more than once that I am neutral on Dorsey, and that I fully expect him to be retained for next season...

Perhaps not 'outstanding', but he has significantly upgraded the talent level (yes, at the expense of a few, Zeitler etc) but where I have a problem is that this has not translated into performance on the field and more wins. Dorsey must accept the responsibility for this. Notice how often I use the word 'responsibility'?

I gotta admit...I wouldn't hate that move. Local guys both aren't they? Not that that means everything but both are young and come from the BEST organization in football history. This next move has to last a decade. Get it right.

Are we pretending Dorsey isn’t the one who pushed for Kitchens? That is a huge strike against him. In the end I think he should stay but let’s not give Dorsey a free pass.

Yes. And the Corbett pick was a huge bust. NOW...a bust every now and again can happen to anyone...but that's not my issue/concern. The problem is that he jettisoned Zeitler after determining that Corbett could actually play RG...and he clearly could not. That miss in talent evaluation was huge especially for a guy who is the King of talent evaluation. Simultaneously he decided that Robinson and Hubbard would suffice. He weakened the OL for his sophomore QB...a very egregious roll of the dice.

Last year he punted Nassib (now a team captain in TB) who was a darn decent backup...traded Ogbah for a decent FS (wash)...and gave away Avery because Wilks couldn't figure out how to use a guy who may be limited and "just" a pass rusher...as if you can ever have enough of those guys.

I think he's done ok...and that's not good enough given the draft capital and salary cap space he started with. JMO.

J/C

I think this season has to be looked at only for this season. What I mean is basing any decision on what we did with Chud, Hue, Shurmur, etc. should have no bearing on decicions this year. They were different rosters, coaches, staffs, etc.If Dorsey stays, he needs to decide if Kitchens is the guy who didn't get results he should have this year as well as can he get those results moving forward.

j/c

And people wonder why we can't have nice things. After only two seasons we have the most talented roster we've had in decades and we have to read some of this BS.

What nice things?

If you can't see it I can't help you.

This is why the Haslams are the worst owners in sports. It's their culture, their structure that has created this and pitted Depo against Dorsey. I believe Dorsey is letting his personal feelings and the desire to "beat" Depo interfere with sound judgment. And it's the Haslams that created the structure that made it possible.

j/c:

Can anyone name even one Belichek assistant who has succeeded as a head coach?

Me neither.

Thanks guys!

Happy New Year to you and yours!

Never thought I would ever think this but The McCarthy Project w/ Wolf GM
sounds tempting!

Yup,been hearing the same thing.

Folks say Haslam is really high on Josh McDaniels and wanted to hire him last time before Joe Banner screwed it up and McDaniels pulled himself out of the running.

The hiring of Nick Caserio makes sense as that will pretty much guarantee McDaniels takes the job since his Gm will be someone he is very familiar with and will have no problem being on the same page with.

No way McDaniels and Dorsey marriage works not after McDaniels pulled out of the coaching job in Indy and screwed over Dorsey best in Ballard.

The more I look at this, the more I think Dorsey is gone.

Either we have Elliot Wolf & McCarthy, or we end up with Caserio & McDaniels.

As much as i'd like Caldwell to get a shot, it looks like one of these two marraiges are going to be what we got moving forward.

I think Haslam has already decided to part ways with both Dorsey and Kitchens, he just won't do so until a week or two after the season is over.

I would be stunned if Dorsey is let go. Seriously stunned.

I don't care who the GM is no GM is perfect. Impossible. Every GM in the NFL misses on players.

The logic behind the moves Dorsey made was sound. People talk about Zeitler for Vernon. Vernon has been hurt.He is a good player. Zeitler was due to make more and they drafted Corbett to play.

Ok Corbett was a miss. It happens.

Dorsey is a very good talent evaluator.
==============================================

The Lombardi speculation could possible be a president hire. It may also be total BS.

I agree, it would be stunning.

I think it’s just clickbait stuff on twitter.

Well we all know how much Mike Lombardi loves the Browns now. I'm sure he knows all of the inner workings behind the scenes when it comes to the Browns.

That's what I mean about this place now. People will take any crazy Twitter rumor and run with it. Even when it makes zero sense.

I would counter depodesta has done a great job.

He is the chief strategy officer - his role has little to do with the day -to-day. Rather he created the framework that allowed us to tank / rebuild / compete ... layer in cutting edge data to help our football minds make better decisions and I have been nothing but happy with his role.

*I thought it was a mistake when he was caught on tape saying Wentz was not an elite QB (regardless if right or wrong).

*I don’t think it’s wrong that he offered a different take on Freddie - he has provided data on what the makeup of a Super Bowl level sustainable coach requires (Freddie does not fit that mold - if he sticks around I’ll wish him luck to prove that model wrong but I am glad we have depodestas voice in the room.

RE: Depodesta’s baseball journey post Oakland (I am a big dodger fan so this is where I wanted share with Diam that his opinion may be clouded) ... Depodesta came in as GM and reworked the roster and won the pennant (first time in 13 years) the following season (decimated by injuries) the dodgers sucked and he was fired (at the time part of the reason sited for firing was not being able to find the right coach / I say we still haven’t) .... but if you are honest and know the history Frank McCourt ruined everything.

In SD he was hired as an assistant in baseball operations - they won the wild card spot and eventually he was promoted to a Vice President.

In NY he was hired as a VP of player development and scouting. The Mets suck - full stop (sorry to any fans).

Depodesta has not been a GM since LA (he didn’t ruin multiple baseball teams)... he stays in his lane and now looks to provide egoless value to the Browns.

Earlier I was going to post about Steelers' GM Kevin Colbert being in the final year of his contract there, and the fact that he is familiar with the Haslams from their time as minority owners in Pittsburgh. But then I realized that Colbert is a Pittsburgh guy from childhood, and would most likely never defect to the Browns. He would be the type I'd want to take over a role as President or CEO for the Haslams though, if he would come here

Depo is still arounf and kicking.


Nobody seems to listen to him yet the players/coaches he puts forward don't get hired and do well elsewhere.

I wouldn't mind Jimmy listening to him more.

We have had a football guy...the guy who got us real players, and we are worse.

Maybe there is no such thing as a "football guy".


I am a football guy, even if not. I am also a baseball guy, even if just a little.


My point is picking players is pretty easy if you don't over think. Watch games, watch tape, pick the guy who wins match-ups.

Any moron can do that. Include me as a moron. I'd be the best GM in Browns history. Just big school guys until the 6th round. Then you can take a few flyer picks.

I’ve said all season dorsey has added shiny PLAYERS but did a horrible job building a team. He got rid of players from positions we didn’t have depth. He went against everyone including PD who didn’t want kitchens and the consensus was stefanski. So what these articles are telling me that dorsey is going against his scouts and advisors and the results are what they are and haslam rightfully needs to hold him accountable. PD is probably the safest guy in the FO. Dorsey has done a lot more than miss on Corbett. Really outside of drafting Chubb and last years mayfield . What talent in the draft has he gotten us?

Same response as reading your garbage. This is what people with low intellect do when they can’t debate.. figured you were smarter. Guess not

J/C

I'm actually surprised at all the love for Dorsey. He's the one who failed here. He's been awful here.

The plan was established 4 years ago. We were supposed to win this year. We did not. Dorsey hitched his wagon to Kitchens and the entire team underachieved.

I'm not advocating firing Dorsey, but as the owner you either give them another year and hope they improve or move on.

If Haslam is insisting on a new head coach and Dorsey is saying give Freddie more time. Well...you have to dismiss both.

I have to agree.

IF Dorsey is the person Lombardi is truly referencing, I have to think the biggest issue (among a few others) for Haslem is Dorsey wasting the owner's money on these ridiculously stupid contracts (either by trade or his own accord) for so many players that have underachieved. The list is way too long in just two years.

This was an issue in KC and, to me at least, is rearing its ugly head yet again.

Quite honestly any GM would look like a upgrade
Over what predated John Dorsey aka Sasha Brown
Dorsey was let go in KC for a reason

Dorsey might be good at acquiring indidivual talent but he failed to build a good team as Browns GM.
His draft record is shakey at best since coming
On board.
His really missed the boat on hiring Kitchens.
Thats his biggest error.
Failing on bringing in a head coach that
Could produce instant results and positive locker
Room culture

2020 - ???
2019 - Fire Hue Jackson
2018 - Fire a bunch of coaches
2017 - Fire a bunch of coaches
2016 - Fire Ray Farmer and Mike Pettine
2015 - Kyle Shanahan's Powerpoint
2014 - Fire Chud, fire Lomabardi, fire Banner
2013 - Fire Holmgren, Heckert, and Shurmur
2012 - Nothing
2011 - Fire Mangini
2010/2009 - Fire George Kokinis
2009 - Fire Phil Savage and Romeo Crennel

One off-season without drama would be nice.

Fair point. I would have a much more hard time firing say someone like Depodesta than Dorsey. Dorsey doesn't instill much confidence in my opinion.

I am not a huge John Dorsey fan. I don't think he is great at his job but I don't think he is bad either. Firing him would cause a huge amount of turmoil and I don't know if it's worth it. Our entire front office is filled with his guys and our entire coaching staff is filled with his guys.

Might come down to whether there's any strife in the Dorsey/Haslam relationship. Not sure any player personnel moves would get him canned. The Freddie issue could have or could yet cause some bad blood. I sure dont know how after watching this years crap show, these guys couldn't be on the same page there.

I don't disagree.

If you don't think we're going to win with Dorsey/Kitchens, then there's no need to stay the course.

Again, I'm not saying fire Kitchens and Dorsey. I don't know the answer. But I think it's easy to see that both have been bad since they've been put in the respective positions. Maybe next year is the year?

Let Dorsey stick to talent, and have someone else hire the coach. Dorsey needs to have the right guy to mange these giant personalities he brings in.

No offense a true GM is a vital and extremely difficult job.

Coaches have it easy by comparison. Just look at the history of the draft and trades.

jc


guys....i think we should keep freddie. take away all the hype that came during the offseason.

2nd year QB, first year as starter in training camp. rookie HC, new scheme, new players, tons of injuries/suspensions.

take away the hype....we would be atleast hopeful of the future with a rookie HC going 7-9 in his first season.

Director of concessions?

nah, HC.

bro we beat the bengals, steelers, and ravens in the same damn season. we went toe to toe with the rams, seahawks, and took a fluke fumble game by chubb to lose to the patriots.

we also beat a playoff team in the bills, which means if the steelers somehow sneak into the playoffs, thats 3 playoff teams that we beat this season.

as crap as freddie's offense has looked in its first year, under Freddie, we will potentially have our running back bringing the rushing title to cleveland, and we are 46 receiving yards from OBJ away from having TWO 1000 yard receivers in the same season. Baker mayfield, with all his problems this season, is gonna put together consecutive seasons throwing over 3500 yards.

we actually have a QB that started all 16 games.

when is the last time Those things happened on this team?

there is a lot of things freddie can improve on. but thats the thing.....he's a first year HC and literally everything we complain about is things that can be corrected fairly easily.

i just.......it got so negative with all the hype, we really did lose sight of the improvement that did happen on this team.

and by the way, we are 20th in defensive yards per game with 361 and points per game at 24.

last year we were ranked 30th in yards per game at 392 and 21st with 24.5.

we also had a ton of injuries and suspensions on the defensive side of the ball THIS season, which means Wilks did BETTER than Williams as DC.

Freddie and Wilks arent going anywhere.

It's just some of the things he never seemed to address or improve on or figure out. He insists on 3rd and short and goal line empty backfield. Everyone from dawg posters, announcers and halftime analysts said it all season. Time management, penalties, players blowing up on the sideline. All that you said I really do understand those arguments for him. All the things that a guy should either figure out or listen to advice just kill it for me.

I listen to a lot of sports radio while driving, and they all talk about the Browns. There isn't a soul that thinks the Freddy experiment is anything but a complete failure.

Except it's going to be 6-10 and the most important player on the team took a huge step back.

Too much bad to "hope" Freddie will improve. It's too big of a gamble.

He would probably endorse Baker not getting help in the off season also. Baker more than anyone else needs an adult to guide him in the worst way. Guy is half a season away from officially becoming a bust. You just can't take a chance on Kitchens after that.

hey i dont really like his play calling that much either, and i complain with the best of them about it, especially during gameday chat.

but while looking at the game on sundays with tunnel vision, we all have to take a step back and look at the overall body of work.

and when i look at how the overall season played out....we all know it couldve been waaaaaay worse. yea, the bar might be low, but ill take 7-9 over those mangini, shurmur, and hue jackson days.

Burrow shows more maturity than Baker quite honestly.

bro he isnt,.

nah we beat the bengals tomorrow.

Seems like another crossroads for the organization doesn't it? Always seemingly at a crossroads...

Not a chance.

Nothing to play for and lame duck coach.

Cincy is playing for revenge and an off season of hope. And they can't screw up draft position with a win.

Mixon is going to have a field day.

Every damn year. I don't even know why I'm posting here anymore. This franchise does nothing but make its fans miserable.

We'll always have August of 2019 when we thought we'd be good.

oh well guys thats what im rolling with. keep freddie.

i wont be upset if they go another direction, but if they do, it better be for a guy with real experience. cause if its another project at HC, then what was the point...

Do they roll them tightly?

nah too tight and you cant pull it properly.

It all rides on making the correct decisions. Our track record ain't very good.

I am telling everyone right now that Baker is going to be a road block to getting a good coach. He was so bad this year do you think a McCarthy or McDaniels want to hitch their wagons to him? Knowing that if he doesn't play well they could be one and done?

You might have to go with someone like Stefanski which will be an utter failure.

If it is not one of these guys, they've gotten it wrong again...McCarthy, Rivera, McDaniels, Riley, or Rhule. That's it. And other than Riley none of those guys may want to hitch their wagons to Baker. That's a huge risk.

After Freddie is fired, it's going to be a crap show. And I'd expect nothing less.

Coaches always think they are the ones that are going to be able to unlock a guy. Our job is not as coveted as it was at this time last year but it will probably be the second best one available behind the Cowboys.

Exactly. All of them have giant egos and believe they're the cure for the ailment. We'll get tons of interest. It's the final decision that always concerns me.

Did Baker take a step back or were his pass catchers just out (Njoku/Higgins/Callaway) or trying to play hurt (OBJ/Landry)? Tretter and Hubbard have been trying to play hurt as well. Greg Robinson turned back into a pumpkin (I think he's thinking about technique too much again). Baker took a beating himself early in the year.

He's definitely looked like he's taken a step back, but there are possibly reasons.

Most of those reasons apply to Freddie, too.

When injuries happen to key pieces in a transition season, bad things happen. Throw in a rough schedule to start the season and it's not a recipe for success.

We've botched every head coach search since Haslam took over. When we hired Chud we first thought we were getting Chip Kelly. When we hired Mike Pettine we were wandering in the wilderness searching for anybody who wanted the job, then 2/3 of the people doing the interviewing were fired after Pettine got the job. When we hired Hue Jackson the front office wanted Sean McDermott and Haslam overruled them. When we hired Freddie Kitchens there was said to be a divide between who Dorsey wanted and who DePodesta wanted.

(I just have to say that I wanted Kitchens last year at this time. It became apparent pretty quickly that he was not the man for the job.)

if they are at another crossroad, they might as well finally sell their soul to the devil and be done with it...can't hurt, may even work

I wasn't disappointed in the Kitchens hire either but you and I being mistaken doesn't really affect the team much. The FO on the other hand...

j/c...

Bitonio is getting a bigger voice. He comments on the organization as a whole...

LOL - sure. A guy who 25% of the teams in the NFL had rated as the best QB when he was in the draft - set an all time NFL record as a rookie QB even though he didn't start from game 1 - had Hue Jackson as his HC for the half the season when he did start - then had Freddie (possibly/probably the worst HC this year) as his HC year two (when he admittedly regressed to the point of bad) ...... yeah - that guy is going to be a road block to getting a good coach? Very fair and balanced, un-jaundiced view point. Or not.

Benched for tomorrow

Baker is more of a reason why someone would come here instead of a reason why someone would NOT come here.

For real.

Bakers numbers obviously took a hit. But no coach in the league IMO would look at Baker and not believe he has potential.

You simply do not have his history year to date and give up on this guy. No way.

I have seen Baker make some great throws over his short history. He has work to do. No question. But I strongly believe he will do the work and play better.

Dream on.
This is CLE.

Test the water in Berea.
I'll keep saying it until:

1. Someone looks sane at 76 Groza
2. Someone tests the water.

That's a slightly misleading headline. Not inaccurate, but not a very good summation of everything Bitonio said. But clickbait is what media does now.

I don't care if he stays or goes, but if he stays, take the play calling away from him. That in itself should give us more wins.

He already said he was only going to do the work he thinks he needs to do the way he thinks he needs to do it. That's basically going to accomplish nothing.

And no, no coach is coming here because of the 33rd ranked QB in the league. For those keeping score at home, that's out of 32 teams. One team has 2 QBs ahead of Baker. The guy lost to Brandon Allen and some guy known for making duck calls. This was the number one overall pick.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

I like Baker and still think he can be our franchise QB for many years. However, Baker is an employee of the Cleveland Browns. He shouldn't dictate what he will do in the offseason but do what the Browns want him to do. If the Browns want him to train a certain way or train with a certain coach then that's what he needs to do. He may have had a bigger say in things after the fine 1st season he had but not after how he and the team played this year. This will be especially true if we hire a new HC and staff. The players work for the Browns not the other way around.

Would u care to discuss his moves in LA and SD? ...

I’m not one to talk out my butt on history ... i am wrong a ton an future stuff like Freddie and Brady but i dont talk out my butt on history ...

I know the moves he made in all 3 places ... HE STUNK ...

There was a reason he was canned in LA and SD so quickly ....

I am not sure but I don't think the team is permitted to do that - I am not even sure how far they can go towards requesting/suggesting what any player 'should' or 'has' to do.

I found it!

"2012 - Nothing"

Though come to think of it, and all joking aside, 2012 was the year Haslam bought the team. That was during the season though.

Is it normal to transfer ownership during a season?

And who should know better on what he needs to work on? You?

Have you won a Heisman? Were you voted the best player in all of college football?

Did you set the quarterback rookie record in the NFL?

Give me a break?

Do you have a clue about what it takes to develop a quarterback? How about a historical perspective?

How about this Baker did not lose to those guys; the Browns lost. That is an indication how little you know to somehow think it is Baker versus Brandon Allen.

The Browns defense lost to Brandon Allen along with the rest of the team.

Think what you wish just to fall into believing it is actually fact.

Odd how you’re willing to give baker all the love when it’s going well, then blame everybody else and start talking about “the team lost”, even though actual ex nfl players always refer to QBs losing to other QBs.

All those questions you asked Rish, yet the one question that needs to be answered is this: how do you know how players view head to head matchups and W- L records?

You keep talking about how the team lost, yet won’t hesitate to bring up bakers W -L record when it was going well last year.

Keep that same energy.

It's because when people post nothing worthy of debate, there's nothing left to do but laugh.

Dorsey is the best thing to come to town since our return and it isn't even close. We have the most talented roster we've had in decades.

I'm not going to legitimize the angry mob trying to debate something that makes zero sense. Speaking of expecting better from some of our posters....

let's agree to root for a browns victory today … I am not trying to debate but you are way wrong.

"There was a reason he was canned in LA and SD so quickly"

He was never "canned" in San Diego - he was hired in 2006 promoted in 2008 and then took a role with the Mets in 2010 (most of the west coast writers lamented losing him and wrote about how he really modernized the Padres operations) - 4 years with a promotion is not canned so quickly.

He was a GM once - in LA he was fired

The guy seems to have figured out where he provides the most value and does it quietly behind the scenes

LETS GOOOOOOOOOooooooooo

It certainly is not quarterback versus quarterback.

I have heard that from Brady, Peyton and many others.
The quarterback plays against the defense.

I have made it clear after every game the error's of Baker.
And what he did well.

I am no cheerleader for Baker. I try to make cold calculating assessments of all that I see.

That goes for all players, coordinators, coaches, GM's.

I look at some stats not a ton. I don't make cases based upon stats alone.

I make an effort to look at things in context of what else is involved in affecting the outcome.

In regards to what Baker needs to do I posted a "to do list."

Actually I don't recall ever bringing up Baker's win lost record last year. I do remember mentioning red zone stats.

One other thing, I have somewhat of a historical perspective because I am 72. I have seen the careers of a lot of quarterbacks. And I don't think it appropriate to totally judge Baker Mayfield after his brief time in the NFL. I mean in a negative or positive light.

We have seen two chapters of book not the whole book.

Well thought out take. I can't disagree. I am kind of in the middle on theissue. Your take makes me lean your way.

Also, it puts some pressure on Dorsey. He hired the guy, he needs to figure out how to work with him. Something needs to be done with playcalling etc. They can figure it out.

If after next season it is still screwed up, we can talk about jobs, and not just the head coach.

The only reservation is I and You, nor anybody else really knows the attitude in Berea. If the players aren't buying, then a change needs to happen later today.

Thanks for the info on SD ... thought he got fired toot sweet from there also ... i know LA was extremely quick ...

U wanna talk moves I’m game ... I’d actually like too ... i my learn sumptin, he may not have been as bad as i think he was ... i know he hurt LA bigtime and he didn't help in NY ..

I have no clue why u think he contributes quietly behind the scenes ... especially not here ...

In baseball he was a failure ... way over rated IMO ... his analytics/moneyball was great for small market teams with no budgets .... thats why it helped in Oakland and maybe SD but he sure as all heck did nothing as far as acquiring personal in his big market stints ...

In football ... none of us has a clue how much or little input he has ... Peen acts like he does al the good stuff and the football guys do all the bad stuff ... *LOL* .... i

Brother, that is settling for mediocrity. I think we have to step back and really ask ourselves if we believe this or if we are talking ourselves into thinking something is better than it actually is. Let me say first....I agree that FK gets questioned more than any HC in their 1st year considering Chubb's success, Landry's 1000 yd season (and possibly OBJs), Myles was on course for a Pro Bowl season and we went 4-2 (assuming we win today) in the division.

HOWEVER, we also had a season of unbelievable drama and horrific game day play and collapses including coaching that never got better. In fact, the last 80 sec of the 1st half v Baltimore last week was atrocious and stands out as a serious alarm bell that FK just doesn't get it and hasn't improved. We have a #1 draft pick/franchise QB who has seriously regressed in their vital sophomore season and I am willing to put money on the fact that FKs hiring of Lindley hasn't helped. Josh Allen has done more (and Darnold) w/a lot less around them. We have had some of our better players listed as healthy scratches (Higgins and Njoku), Randall has regressed, we traded Avery, Schobert isn't wrapped up for an extension, and our defense literally looks to have given up in several games. The only coach who appears to be getting his unit to buy in and play for him is Pfreifer. And, we have seen serious lapses in discipline since TC, preseason and into the regular season since the debacle in the opening game. Garrett and Whitehead being the worst offenders, but it has been a joke.

Given all the money spent and the talent acquired I honestly do not think 7-9, or half a game worse than last year with superior talent, is acceptable. IF we go 6-10 that is even worse. I never expected Super Bowl, and I admit I didn't expect LJ to have the season he has had (or to improve his passing as much as he has), but I did expect to compete for the title rather than to finish in 3rd and I also expected at least a Wild Card. Did I buy into the kool aid? Perhaps. Is that an entitlement? Sure. But, again...given how we finished 2018 and the $ spent and talent acquired I think we were all expecting far better than 7-9 and certainly much better than a very realistic possibility of 6-10.

Regarding Mangini, Shurmur and Jackson...FK has more talent than any of those coaches. I don't know about Shurmur, but I am pretty confident that Hue and Eric could have won more than 7 games with this roster. Hell, Hue had his team of inferior talent playing significantly harder than FK has this team playing. Certainly, on the defensive side of the ball he did.

So, I celebrate Chubb, Landry's personal successes and I hope OBJ gets his 1000 yards today, but no...I can't settle for mediocrity. That's a dangerous thing to do given our past 20 years of bottom of the barrel football play, coaching and drafting.

Before last week's game I was still on the fence about firing FK, but unfortunately I think the Haslam's have to move on from this guy. Regarding Dorsey, I think that is a bigger decision. Yes, he has proved he doesn't walk on water (we saw that with his wasted pick #33) and he made the decision to hire FK, which may be his ultimate downfall. But he has also done a lot in his time here and made our roster relevant and certainly one that should be able to compete. If they do move on from him I would hope Wolf or Highsmith stay as GM and Pres. But, Highsmith is pretty tied to Dorsey so I can see him going as well and Wolf being promoted to GM. Remember, Wolf was overlooked and snubbed by Green Bay. Maybe his time has come and it will be Cleveland whose keys he finally gets to drive.

I agree and that’s the biggest problem: we have a roster full of talent, but if that roster is full of players with zero confidence in Freddie, than he has to go.

I guess we’ll find out today how the players come out during the game. While it will most certainly make me question the character of the guys on the roster, if we come out flat and lose, Freddie is out of here.

I feel that bro but what was realistically suppose to happen with a first year HC and a 2nd year QB going into his first season as the undisputed starter?

I am pretty much in line with this as well.

Some changes need to be made. Maybe not drastic ones.

The offense needs attention and that may well be a new coordinator who has more authority.

So much of what goes on inside the walls of Berea that we will never know.

Dorsey and others have deep NFL experience. They should be able to figure it out.

The 1st thing that needs to happen is for everyone to take a deep breath and relax for a minute to gain some perspective ...

Did you forget where you were?

Not to lose to inferior talent: Denver, Pittsburgh or Arizona. Right there that pushes us into the expected wild card race.

Forget LA and Sea losses....they were potential wins too, but I forgive that, but the above teams we shouldn't have lost to.

I will also add that we shouldn't have been blown out by TN or SF. Those were embarrassments. But again, the above three inferior teams we shouldn't have lost to.

Ya ... lets just forget the teams we fielded rnd. 2 vs Pitt and against Zona ... did we really have more talent than those teams by the time we played them? ...

I suspect the Haslam's have been doing that since Dorsey's presser during the bye week.

Good post.

Frankly, I am torn and go back and forth. Some of the things you mentioned drove me crazy.

However, given Freddie's lack of experience maybe that has to be baked into his evaluation.

The hard thing to determine is if Freddie can develop??

Will he learn and be willing to change?

This is a results business. Your grace period is very short.

The continuity argument is tricky. We all want that for many reasons. But you can not build on what is there "if" it does not have the capacity to develop or be willing to change.

And that is where this decision has to be made.

Ummmmmmm...on offense......YES!

I have yet to see this as he makes the same mistakes, often worse, 15 weeks deep into the season. Players beginning to speak out also doesn't help. I think he has lost the locker room.

We can think based upon what we see.

However, when you are inside the walls of Berea there is more information to base that upon.

If it determined that he has lost the locker room and there is lots of internal discord among the staff.

He will be terminated.

The Mets made the World Series in Paul DePodesta's last year with the team.

DePodesta was with the Dodgers for two seasons. The first one he made the playoffs. After the second season he was fired because a new owner was in charge. The two biggest columnists in LA (Bill Plaschke and TJ Simers) were against DePodesta immediately after his hire:



"Moneyball" (or finding market inefficiencies) has been an inarguable success in MLB. Literally every team is analytically driven. (This is not to say that it would work in the NFL.)

There's a difference between using analytics in the NFL and DePodesta being the right person for the job of using analytics in the NFL.

That seems to be a running theme here. That if you don't support Depodesta you must think that analytics are bad. That's not the case. The fact is, using analytics is now a part of the NFL. That certainly can't be denied. Now whether a guy coming from MLB to the NFL being the right guy for that job with the Browns isn't such an open and shut case.

Nor is it the same debate.

Following up on the momentum from last season? Seeing some improvement as the season progressed? Not repeatedly making the same mistakes? Winning games we're supposed to? Not looking like a total train wreck in the last half of the season?

Depodesta has been in role for 4 years now.

I count one misstep - when they got him on tape about Wentz (I actually agree with the assessment but thought it was a mistake).

This thread is about coaches and I understand how Depodesta comes into the conversation (he provided data on what the Browns should be looking for in a coach and Freddie was not a match).

"DePodesta is tasked with implementing systems and processes to strengthen the Browns organization and decision making. In this role, he works closely with General Manager John Dorsey, Head Coach Freddie Kitchens and members of the player development, high performance and analytics departments to maximize efforts."

I think Depodesta does this well and without ego (him and Dorsey both know you are right sometimes and wrong sometimes … better to just keep grinding).

If Depodesta has machinations to run the whole show - be careful what you wish for …. but again I am glad he is a voice in the room (who knows - he may be the one telling haslem to slow down on some shiny new hire that would refuse to work with Dorsey or telling him a couple year of continuity is required) …

I really hope we haven't devolved into any "I told you so" stuff because I would lose respect for all parties.

I don't know what the Browns are supposed to do.

Obviously, we know Freddie isn't cut out to be a head coach. He's just not. I think he can be an OC in this league for a long time, but handling the whole thing is just too much for him.

I love this narrative that nobody wants to coach the Browns because they fire guys every few years (or sooner), but really, we fire coaches because they can't get out of their own way. Because their players are constantly not playing smart football. We're not asking that a coach take us to the super bowl within two years, but would it kill you to have this team play to their potential? That's literally all we ask.

The only guy in the last decade to do that was Mike Pettine. I wanted him gone just like most of us did, but looking back, he got everything he could out of the roster, and he had to deal with the entire Manziel fiasco. I was on the Johnny train like some of us, but I am a fan, and am allowed to be.

I'm not saying bring Mike Pettine back, but we need a coach who can have his guys buy in and play much smarter football. You are what your record is, there is no doubt about that, but there are so many other reasons to fire Kitchens aside from W/L. Let's be honest, if the Browns win today, 7-9 in your first year isn't the end of the world.

But it's when you unravel the story of this whole season, and you see all the missed opportunities, the dumb mistakes, the laundry list of penalties every single week. The head scratching playcalls.

There was a graphic going around twitter on what every single team's record would be if they flipped all their 1 score games' results, and the Browns would be 9-6 heading into Cincinnati today. It's a cheap way to look at things, but it is pretty interesting.

.. I was with ya until the " Roster full of talent " comment .. Yes we have picked up a few nice pieces to the puzzle over the last two seasons , wait for it ; BUT the roster is still full of holes .. The revolving door of players is part of the problem. Dorsey has brought in his share of not real, REAL players.
.. Dam sure not a Haslam fan , but pulling the trigger is going to be a tough call..

Let's see..for the record, during Depo's 2016 and 2017 seasons, Haslam and his Browns won 1 game and lost 31 games, with the team finishing 4th in AFC North both years.

In 2018 and 2019, during Dorsey's time as GM, the Haslam's team won 7 games in 2018 and if they win today, the Browns will have won 14 games in Dorsey's 2 seasons as GM.

So, if your the owner of the Browns, what would you do, return to management style of Depodesta or continue with Dorsey?

Pit...damn straight I will...winning matters and the fact that Depodesta's record speaks volumes for experience and commitment to "football".

One story points out that Depodesta said he would move to Cleveland and be on the job "full time"..IMO, it shows just what Depodesta's priorities have been during his time with the Browns...HE WAS A PART TIMER!

Now that the Browns have shown some success Depo wants to piggy back onto Dorsey's work over the last two seasons and see if he can con Haslam into a GM type job.

One more thing...can anyone tell me what Depodesta does to improve the teaM?

Haven't you heard? They were doing that on purpose.

J/C ......

What I find *amusing* is that fans complain that we don't give players the time to develop ...... and that we switch up coaches/schemes so often that we keep dumping useful players who weren't drafted by the (then) current front office ...... but are perfectly willing to write off a coach in less than a year.

If we are waiting to see if he beats the 1-14 Bengals (I dont think that’s the case) then our leadership would be totally ignorant

Ironic isn't it?

I don't care what Lombardi reports … I don't think it is a Depodesta v Dorsey thing

all of a sudden some clown posts something and folks are picking sides and degrading our staff on rumors - same as it ever was.


Depodesta has a dream job (I would argue it's better than GM if you don't have an ego, way less risk)

if his opinion carried more weight during the Sashi days (that's a comment on Sashi not depo)

all the clowns want to jump on Freddie because the results have sucked - I trust Dorsey to decide - but the next step for these clowns is to go after Dorsey (and the reality is if you are looking for a new coach - unfortunately it sometimes requires to change the GM)

I think it would be a mistake to move on from Dorsey - again I trust Dorsey to decide on Freddie

but for fans to suddenly start tearing down Depodesta because he had a different opinion on Freddie is about as stupid as any one who believed the "come get me" stuff with our receivers.

The franchise is an embarrassment.

Missed XP

First it was Sashi to blame for 1-31, now it's Depodesta? And now that Dorsey is here and we've won 13 games the past two years all of a sudden Depodesta is trying to ride his coattails for a better gig?


Where in the heck do you people come up with this crap?

They are clueless. They don’t understand at all what PD does. They act like he was the gm. Sashi accumulates assets. That’s what they were doing

Jc

Well, I tried to give some positive energy. But Freddie is toast after today. Bye bye.

Yeah pretty much, I hope this next coach is better. I get that hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but the Browns made a huge mistake in hiring Kitchens in the first place, and not doing a thorough search. Whether that is because they actually believed in him, or, like some think, Dorsey wanted a guy he could control, is something that will always be debated, but either way they failed miserably at a time when this team could have been a playoff team. It was set up for them. They were eliminated in the second last week. They had so many opportunities to make the playoffs and they didn't want any of them

We just lost to the one win BUNGLES! Kitchens must go. We have far too much talent on this team to allow him to produce seasons like this.

This was the most undisciplined team we have had in many years. It all started with Kitchens insisting that "we don't practice penalties" over and over again. Well, that didn't work out so well. Seemed like no one on the team knew what is and isn't legal.

There are many things coaches get blamed for that are out of their control. Discipline isn't one of them. An undisciplined team is a direct result of coaching or a lack thereof.

Yes, Kitchens and this entire staff must go. We need a REAL head coach that has EXPERIENCE.

See here is the problem though,

We are not going to get an "experienced Head Coach" like McCarthy or Rivera as long as John Dorsey is in the picture. He is gun shy from losing a power struggle with Reid, and frankly they are not going to come here if they are forced to report to Dorsey how the current power structure is set up.

Guys like Rivera and McCarthy have EARNED the right to report directly to the owner. they have served their time, came up the ranks and shovled poo so they wouldn't have to report to someone like Dorsey.

So that simply isn't going to work.

The way I look at, this goes two ways:

1. We move on from both Dorsey and Kitchens and then hire McCarthy or Rivera and get a different GM they can work with while still reporting directly to the owner.

2. We keep Dorsey and hire another assistant that will report to Dorsey

I'd say if Haslam is smart he goes with number 1, but I won't be one bit surprised with number 2...after all we are the Browns, its what we do.

Reminder: Our entire front office and most of our coaching staff are buddies with John Dorsey.

Spooky , yes ..lol

He'll be gone tonight.

I'll assume this counts as a disaster. If not, what would?

I remember thinking after Hue Jackson's second season that he would surely be fired. It was the only choice to make. He was retained. We can't afford to waste another season with a coach on the hot seat starting week one.

Yeah, anyone that says Kitchens isn't gone is a lunatic.

If we are going to stay with a downfield passing game, we need to invest in the OL. This OL is an OK run OL ..... but they fall apart in pass pro far too often, and usually at key moments.

Looked at the Box score of the game . Baker got sack 6 times ?

Atleast 2 of those was on him standing back there unable to read coverages.

J/c...

the best the front office can hire as an experienced HC would be Chuck Pagano or Jim Caldwell, IMO.

So what we want but that team up lead to divisional titles and playoff births.

Who is chadp71?

Didn't get a chance to see the game today . Was he under a lot of pressure ? Did we run enough , or was Chubb just shut down ?

JD and Nick Caserio would still work for me.

I guess I don't know hwo will take the job with Dorsey still holding the Rains ..

Bro, a lil bit of all of the above. We tried running but after the first drive, cincy’s front 7 manhandled ours.

He was under pressure, but also had clean pockets to throw in as well and just....I dunno.

Like most games, we start out hot first drive......and just die out like an old motor for the rest of the game.

I'll tell you this...considering the bengals oline was perhaps the worst (debatable with dolphins) they looked world better than our Oline today...absolutely ugly performance from our Oline.

Swish, both OBJ and Landry were so much better than the Cincy Cb's it is just amazing how we lost this game.

Also too many WTF throws... He just does not play well under pressure, mental pressure, and he clearly does not know how to read a D.

Got it , thanks .. Now it's time to take my meds ..lol

They’re better than most secondaries around the league, even with their current injuries.

Imagine what they could’ve put up being healthy with a competent QB and HC.

Was watching today's game, and the talent difference was amazing... how can anyone lose this game.

OBJ and Landry were balling... man those two must be really frustrated by now.

Seems like every year it’s the same conversations about talent and coaching. A lot of teams have proven it can be turned around fast. I say screw continuity for the sake of. Keep firing until you get the right one. We don’t want another Hue where they get even worse the second year . I don’t think dorsey or kitchens is safe. Dorsey went against the FO and pulled rank for kitchens. He’s going to have to answer for that. Both have to answer why we have a worse record than last year with an interim coach

Now THERE is a metric to measure "going forward" with! And with today's loss to the Ben-Gals, we showed putrid effort and tackling. Made them look like champeens. Just how low a bar demands FK be kept? This offensive line stunk, especially Robinson; how many "1-0" crappy rah-rah speeches do we need to give FK as he gets "experience" (read more losses and beatings)?

Baker has been marginal this year. Some of the stupid picks today were lousy throws, much deeper than needed. So many held sacks. He also is missing open guys on the outside and forcing it to shorter/shortest routes. He has gotten worse under FK IMO.

This bellyaching boils down to what we have seen "going forward" to build on. BM and FK have been major fails in losses and doing most of the talking. Just can't see another season or three of this. FK will be the next Hue or Marvelous Marv.

I think FK is gone, but I really think bringing in a vet QB that's legit enough to be a stop gap to challenge Baker might wake him up. I really think they need to bring in Zampese to be the QB coach again. I really think he's missed more than people realize. Lindley has no business coaching anything in the NFL, sure as hell not the most position on the field

I’ll just say that I hate, HATE! that we’re talking coaching change (and everything that comes with that) the minute the season ends. We are in desperate need of continuity. Buuuuut... Kitchens is not it. I had serious doubts before the season started and I’ve seen literally nothing that makes me think he’s even a mediocre head coach. I’m reliably against quick firing and change for change’s sake but he sucks. He’s not good and I don’t see that changing soon.

Unfortunately I just don’t think Haslam has it in him to create a high level organization. I don’t have a problem with Dorsey really but Haslam has been a part of so much whiffing on fundamental decisions that I just don’t trust they’re going to get it right as long he’s involved intimately in the process. Yes, I’ve read that Kitchens was Dorsey’s guy but Haslam doesn’t know enough that he may not be a good coaching picker.

I’ve been in big corporate C suites for 3 decades and can spot a garbage chief and Haslam has it written all over him. Companies run by involved bad chiefs almost never function well. It always seems like a mystery as to why, there are other qualified and competent people making decisions, it seems like it should work. But it just always mysteriously ends up on the rocks and until the top of the pyramid is good, it’ll be mired in dysfunction. They may get lucky for stretches but it’s going nowhere long term as long as he’s involved day to day. Sorry, just mho.

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe nobody was open. You can only go through so many progressions before it looks like you are holding the ball and the rush is on you. I saw Baker run the ball more today that any other game. At least it seemed that way.

No he can't see it. He even throws to WR that are on the ground...

The screen pass to Hunt, where Hunt wasn't even looking, etc, etc.

He must read D's and know where the pressure is coming, he is not a rookie anymore.

The more you post the more your emotional and unfounded dislike of Baker shines through.

OBJ only wanted his bonus for 1000 yards and after that he basically walked off and quit - he did go back in the game but the camera clearly showed it. Landry and OBJ literally couldn't have looked more disinterested even after catches for 1st downs ..... and you think they were balling! LMAO.

Looks like it's Josh McDaniels job.

he literally took one play off and came back in...then scored a TD...yeah that OBJ is a Diva...2 1000 yard recievers..they did their part

listening to the interviews...not a single player stuck up to keep FK.. It was the whole "not my decision, whatever they do I'll support, etc" Freddie gone

I don't dismiss your points, but I don't think your takes are unbiased.

Baker said that when OBJ went off the field after the "1000 yard" play, he sat down and put a towel over his head, and threw up.

I have thought for a long time that McDaniels and Caserio would take over in New England after Belichick retired.

Those two would make a great duo although the whole thing with McDaniels backing out of the Colts job is going to give a lot of owners pause.

Impressive,I threw up during the 1st quarter.

Well if he threw up - the camera was up tight and on OBJ on the bench with his head under the towel. There was no sign of vomit - to me it looked like he was shouting under the towel. He may have vomited - but to be honest in today's day and age, that'd almost be impossible to do without someone catching it on film. Maybe that will show up (like the Richard Sherman handshake deal) ? Whether it was because he was ill or not - OBJ did not seem to be balling to me in any way shape or form. Even the commentators mentioned it MULTIPLE times how the WR's weren't hustling or trying.

I honestly don't understand this position. It was clear from the start that both OBJ and Landry were miles apart from any DB in talent... they caught all that Baker threw and beat systemically the CB's all game, but still Baker wouldn't throw the rock to them.

OBJ had some catches after the 1000 one, and even a TD...

How can someone that loves the game even put Baker and OBJ and Landry in the same sentence... If you can't handle talented players, you shouldn't be heading a team... stop blaming the good players we have.

You have 2 of the best receivers in the game and you are running the ball yourself on 3rd and long... and you can't even run it...

What, because you didn't see chunks he didn't throw up? Doesn't your head bob up and down when you puke? Geez, you guys really should take a look in the mirror at some of the crap you post....LMFAO

If McDaniels wants the job as bad as is being reported (Dee also wants him and I trust her more than her husband) then that somewhat restores my faith in Baker. I'm pretty sure McDaniels was high on Baker coming out of the draft.

McCarthy or BUST!

This gives me hope.

The Patriots were ready to trade up to #2 for Baker.

I would rather have McCarthy....Much better track record!

Turn the mirror bub.

I could easily be wrong about OBJ throwing up. No worries about that. AS I said - pretty hard to think of some guy spewing on the siudelines and it not being caught on film by someone - but it's possible. I said that.

The POINT was that OBJ and Landry were not BALLING as claimed by the poster. They were so NOT balling that the commentator on at least 4 occasions made reference to the lack of effort by the WR's to get open.

Hey - but knock yourself out if you want to send personal attacks.

I wonder if Condi Rice is still on the short list?

Robert Smith was calling out OBJ and Landry all game long for effort.

OBJ was vomiting on the sideline because he was sick.

sure he was.

i know if someone is puking, i aint going anywhere near him and there were a boatload next to him.

Dorsey will resign.

I do believe he was on the injury report with an "illness".

Being allergic to The Browns is not an illness.

Seems like Dorsey's next play.

The embarrassing and disastrous hire of Kitchens was his demise.

that will open up alot of options for coaches then.

j/c:

Those three would be an excellent start.

I only want Stefanski if Gary Kubiak comes with him.

What's a Matt Rhule??

The rumors of Andrew Berry returning are quite exciting.

Baylor's Coach

It doesn't matter at all who we get; nothing will change.

Hope will spring again, and it will all crash down again.

It's just pointless.

Jim Harbaugh is currently trending on Twitter.

I'll be very concerned if we hire McDaniels.. I just don't think he has the personality to vibe well with big ego guys.

This is really interesting and seems to have just been glossed over by those on here.

Why would Matt Rhule not be interested? My theory goes like this...Matt Rhule by reputation is an actual leader and a smart guy. He would never put his career in the hands of the Haslams who couldn't identify a leader if it bit them in the face and if they happened to stumble upon one, wouldn't provide the structure and culture to have them succeed.

I think that Matt Rhule has no interest is a really interesting side plot to all of this. A natural born leader wants nothing to do with the Cleveland Browns.

I mean what does that say?

Who knows? Maybe he doesn't like Ohio/winter weather?

1) I try not to read into things.

2) I assume not everything I read on the internet is true. A few months ago some were chastising Baker because a false report that he refused to shake Sherman's hand before a game.

3) A lot of people like to twist words. Take Mary Kay for instance. He easily could have said he had a bad experience at a Cleveland restaurant once and it becomes he said he's not coming to Cleveland to coach.

4) If it is true and he doesn't want to coach here, good. I don't want him here either. No big deal.

He's interested in the Giants. My guess is that he's only interested in teams that he knows actually want to hire him. The Jets wasted his time last year. Also, the obvious Haslam factor.

The last 2 guys I want are McDaniels or McCarthy ...... (no Mc's for me)

That means that we'll wind up with one of them.

Those two will end our playoff drought so oh well let’s get em.

Yeah, why wouldn't you want two of the better/best choices?

If anything, McDaniels is similar to Belichick's situation. He was an up and coming "genius" that tried as a coach and failed, went back to being a coordinator under one of the best coaches around, and now is ready to try head coaching again.

McCarthy has probably the best past track record (win/loss record) as any head coach available. He's apparently been spending the entire season having his own conferences with other unemployed/former coaches trying to improve as a coach for his next gig. He hasn't been sitting around collecting unemployment checks. He wants to come back better than ever.

What I kind of don't want is a college guy/first-time NFL coach. We already tried that gamble, and it failed miserably.

No love lost from me if he takes his cud-chewing over-inflated sense of self-worth somewhere else. Freakin Lord Dorsey.

McDaniels didn't do that bad as a HC. HE took the Broncos to the playoffs and won a game with Tim Tebow as his Qb. He did quite well as coach given how terrible his GM was. (Yes, I know he was his own GM)

Actually he was fired 12 games into his 2nd season and never took the Broncos to playoffs, but I'd still take him as the coach here.

I hope not, but shine has dulled on John Dorsey. If he leaves, so be it. I am sure that Wolf would gladly take the position. I have seen a report that Haslam wants to bring Andrew Berry back.

Really? My bad. I must have misremembered.

Part of a Story about McDaniels firing in Denver ...
https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=5892528

After winning his first six games his rookie season, McDaniels lost 17 of his last 22 with the Broncos in his first NFL head coaching job.

He had plenty of off-the-field issues, too, including linebacker D.J. Williams' drunken driving charge that caused him to get stripped of his captaincy.

Before he was fired Monday, McDaniels said he was reticent to turn to raw rookie quarterback Tim Tebow even though the Broncos had been eliminated from contention with a 10-6 loss at Kansas City, their seventh loss in eight games.

McDaniels made a series of personnel decisions that backfired, notably trading away Peyton Hillis, who has become a power running back in Cleveland. He also let go of Casey Wiegmann, who's anchoring the league's top rushing attack in Kansas City.

After beefing up both lines in the offseason, the Broncos rank 29th in the league in rushing offense and next-to-last in run defense.

Why don't the Browns interview Caldwell? I still don't understand why he was fired after going 9-7 and going to the playoffs.

wrong use of the word "reticent," the word should be "reluctant"....not to quibble but if that's indicative of the whole article, just sayin'

What's the number of open positions up to now? 4 with Dallas possibly the 5th?

Dallas, NYG, Washington are pretty high profile jobs. Carolina has weather going for it and then there's...Cleveland.

Better interview these guys quickly if you want to nab your first choice coach.