Simply put, in 2016 and 2017, under a
analytics regime the Browns managed 1 win and 31 losses.

In 2018 and 2019, the football guys came in and improved upon the most historic lows the Browns franchise had ever experienced with 13 wins in two seasons.

The new numbers guys already have over half the job done for them..that job being to establish a good enough record to make the playoffs. Another 4 wins per season and "maybe" the Browns make the playoffs.

If the new numbers guys can add 5 more wins to next season, those 5 wins added to the 6 wins this season and the Browns "will be in the big dance" next season.

The job is half way done for the new guys, now just win us 4 or 5 more games next season and the fans should get what they want..a winning team that can get to the big dance every year.

The offense needs to improve at the OT position but the new coach should be able to improve upon the play of the talent he is being handed on the offensive side.

IMO, the real work is going to be needed on the defensive side of the ball and more specifically, stopping the run. The Browns rush defense ranked 30th in the NFL, giving up 145 yds per game.

As anyone can see, there is not a lot of improvement that needs to be made on the progress the team made the last two seasons. Fix the O-line, D-line and LBers and the new coach should look like a king if he leads the Browns to the playoffs in 2020.

Make no mistake, making the playoffs is the goal and the Browns are not that far away.

I didn't see the Vikings game so I went to highlights plus listening to PFT's review of the game. Hopefully the performance of the Vikings offense is not indicative of Stefanski's coaching ability.

The 49ers dominated the Browns during the 4th game of the 2019 season and they are that good. The Vikings didn't seem to recognize that Cousins was not going have enough time to stand in the pocket and survey the field. There was no quick passing game to slow down the 49ers rush and the Vikings game plan actually played into the strength of the 9ers defense.

Not sure how much Stefaniski is responsible for though.

I’m kind of a broken record on this point the last few weeks but will say it again. The Titans are the blue print we should be following. Fundamental football: blocking and tackling. Our OL and front 7 need to be as good as any in the league and there should be a major coaching emphasis on blocking schemes, and blocking and tackling execution. All the best analytics driven teams seem to put fine point on this. We sucked resoundingly at both last year and I would contend that blocking and tackling schemes and execution are what doomed us more than any other factors.

As much as has been said about it being a passing league in the last decade I’m seeing a shift among many of the best and smartest teams (analytics heavy teams), to a run-first approach. Look at how many marginal QBs were relevant in the playoffs this year. Can’t say that any will turn into Super Bowl winners but the point is when the team operates from that base, the QB’s dominance is less vital and they frankly look much better.

To your point... we have many of the skill players needed already. We desperately need to shore up the lunch pail crew and good coaching in the scrum. I was much less optimistic last year than most of you because I knew the OL was a major Achilles heal that everyone down plays and rose colors in the off season. What I didn’t know was the DL would be as inconsistent as they ended up being. Coupled with our very marginal LBs and poor tackling DBs, our needs this year are much clearer to me than they are in most years.

I just listened to Pro Football Talks assessment of the Browns hire of Stefanski...all I can say is OUCH!

I've never heard the Browns franchise ripped so badly over a HC hire. I didn't know that Stefanski was so lowly regarded around the NFL.

Like I said, much of the work has been done over the last 2 years, getting the team to 6-7 wins per season. Adding to what talent is on the team should help the Browns to playoff caliber play.

My entire focus is JUST WIN US 4 ADDITIONAL GAMES NEXT SEASON and we should make it to the big dance.

Another way to see our recent past is that most probably the number guys have done a good job, the problem has been the football guys, specially the Head Coach...

I think losing Dorsey mas a major blow, but I can't see any successful team run by a GM, the way he was trying to do.

PFF is starting to get personal opinions in the middle of their analysis,which isn't a good thing.

Florio...who cares. Bloviating talking heads.

Actually, it was Chris Sims who was the most upset over the hire of Stefanski.

Haslam better have his fingers crossed that this works or we could see a fans revolt for the ages.

I'm not sure that a guy who has stuck through a number of regime changes AND continued to climb the Vikings ladder can be so awful. I don't know who is whose pal and what axe they have to grind or why. Wont try to figure it out either...

Onward I guess...

Look, Stefanski is being handed a team that is improved over the 1-31 team and as bad as fans thought the team was last season, the areas that need fixed have been reduced to maybe 3 on offense.

If the Browns do a good job of addressing their few personnel needs on offense...if Stefanski is that offensive guru some claim, he should be able to produce a better offense than we had last season.

Fixing the defense might be harder to accomplish.

That's some good points Mac.

We do have the underpinnings of a pretty good team. We are missing a few pieces.

But really, it's going to take someone that can bring it all together.

Too damn many penalties last year. No Discipline. It was almost like this team didn't respect Kitchens..

So, whoever is hired (stefanski now)that has to be priority 1.

Anyone with two eyes and a brain could see that Freddie Kitchens was as bad a HC as we have had since our reincarnation. Then you add in that Dorsey was pulling all the strings to an outrageous extent and the purge began.

I just hope we aren't going back to trading out of Desean Watson and Patrick Mahommes caliber picks for Jabrill Peppers. I like Analytics on gameday but I really don't need another David Njoku, young, measurables off the charts.....can't block or catch a cold.

Keep analytics to gameplans and situational football. Keep it out of the draft room. The only analytics that should be discussed are "we like this player on tape, do his measurables translate to the NFL". Seems like the converse has been the case.....he can't catch or block, but look at those measurables, that is what I don't want anymore. Peppers and Njoku are perfect examples of analytics busts.

I fully expect us to trade down from 10 this year. Book it.

You have to remember that Mike Florio is a huge Vikings fan and has been critical of every move that ended up positive for them over the last year. He was also prettly sure we were going to be great last year while many of us had grave doubts.

He’s pretty butt-hurt over their loss but honestly they got farther than I thought they’d get. I thought they would get smoked by the Saints. I have no idea if Stafansky is going to be any good and neither does he. Unlike the Kitchens hire I like the logic behind this hire but execution is everything. We just have to see.

Haslam stressed in his Jan 2 presser about how they needed to build a cohesive HC/FO unit. McDaniels coming in and saying "I need this/that, and this is how it's gonna be" probably doomed him despite him being Haslam's favorite.

Then there's Stefanski, who has shown he's able to work with many and work well. After all the "football guys" throwing elbows and causing discord, he wants more people that can play nice. I can understand this hire, if this is the intent.

I think he's also always wanted to have this type of setup, but just brought in the wrong people on round 1 (Sashi and Hue). Sashi had very little football knowledge, and Hue didn't seem to have any interest in an analytics approach. Assuming we get our guy for GM, we'll have the same analytics backbone, but with people with a better blend of experience in our hires.

For me, it all comes down to Stefanski's leadership and coordinator hires.

Honestly if there is one coach I want someone to learn how to be a leader of men from, there are very few on that list above Mike Zimmer.

In business, you need people that are willing to challenge you, you need people that are willing to stand up to you when your wrong, and call you out.

Having a Yes Man will not produce results. Who has say over the roster, who has say over the draft, who has say over depth chart?

Depo, Jimmy, the soon to be named GM, the HC?

What they say they want is all nice and dandy, until actual decisions need to be made. Then, it will just another power struggle as each person will want "their guy".

You need a cohesive FO/HC, yes, but you also need someone with the final say that knows what the hell they are doing. Haslam wants people that are just going to hold his main organ and tell him how wonderful he is.

Chris Simms was on McDaniels 2009 Broncos team. Josh let him keep collecting an NFL paycheck when his career was winding down (more like already flatlined). Simms didn't play again after McDaniels was let go by the Broncos.

PFT's people have more agendas than posters on here, which is saying something.

I said this in another thread but a big part of analytics In sports isn’t even about players. It’s about measuring the evaluators. Not just their hits and misses over time but specifics about their biases, strengths by position group or player types, projections etc etc. It can be very valuable for drafting when a GM or personnel chief knows how to calibrate the assessments and properly baseline the myriad reams of data coming in. I don’t know if this been done in the past here but I deeply suspect it wasn’t with the last crew. I personally like good data and would welcome it

I believe we should ask why they only achieved half and how this in-house process became adversarial. We seem to be willing and eager to fuss over issues that are not on the field on game day. Hope we get around to that soon. Vital.

The above information is concerning...this selection committee would not be considered qualified to judge coaching talent by any other franchise in the NFL.

...owner with a 28-83-1 record since 2012.
...the owners son in law
...Chris Cooper, a lawyer
...Depodesta, part time stats guy

Stefanski has "tremendous pressure" to win, to help justify the selection made by this crew, the selection committee.

I think I prefer a guy who can work well with others over an "I'm driving the bus" guy.

I still have things I'm not sure about ("doubts") with Stefanski, but being able to work with others doesn't make one a yes man.

If Jimmy's ever going to become a "football guy," he's going to have to be around football people. It seems he can't help himself from being involved, so he might as well learn as much as he can.

Stefanski seems to be a constant learner and is willing to adapt. Maybe Haslam will actually listen to a coach he thinks is smarter than (maybe only as smart as) he is.

I'm a little concerned about all the ownership meetings, but depending on the direction that the information is flowing they could be a good thing. Stefanski saying this is what you can do to help, good. Haslam dictating, bad. Stefanski saying this is what happened and this is what we are doing about it, fine.

The meetings might actually help him to organize his thoughts and plan things out in more detail which could be a good process to have anyways.

With regards to leadership, there is more than one way to lead. We'll see how Stefanski's version works. I think his demeanor will actually help with the game management aspects that our more excitable coaches had struggled with.

Build the OL and finish the DL.

I agree. Freddie seemed to get stuck on various plays. I think the approach they take this year will help prevent that.

I agree we have more work to do on the defensive side of the ball. If we improve the O-line, I think we have the players to score points. Now we need to start to limit points. We just don't have as many impact players on that side of the ball.

It wouldn't bother me on bit if we didn't draft anybody who runs the ball, catches the ball, or throws the ball. Just go for players who block or defend.

A lot of the work is done and those areas on offense that looked less prepared and off-script under Freddie...those issues should be corrected with more proficient coaching and or replacing those who can't adjust.

My experience with learning plays and blocking assignments are best corrected through repetition. Run the same play again and again until all know their assignments on every play.

Who is to be blocked or who is to line up where or who is supposed to go in motion or what route a WR is supposed to run should be learned in practice so each players knows their assignment on game day.

I would expect a vastly improved offense. Those who are not able to learn, cut them or trade them.

You can't be dumb and expect to win in the NFL or at any level of football.

amen

Ditto... but, adding a single TE that runs, catches, and BLOCKS like Kittle would pay massive dividends to a revamped and improved OLine.

If that can be had in Free Agency, so much the better... then we can get this defense where it needs to be, which requires someone as fearsome as Garrett to be opposite of him.

Since I want to address the take position first, I'd much rather get a tight end via FA.

I'd also go for a FB with versatility (Marcel Reece used to play for the raiders)

I would be shocked if we didn't end up with a fullback on the roster. The problem is that's it hard to find a good one because no one uses a fullback in college. There are five total fullbacks listed as free agents on Over the Cap.

R

I would be shocked if we do get a FB. A TE has more versatility, and we have Chubb and Hunt who block well for one another.

If we are truly running the Shanahan/Kubiak offense then we will have a fullback.

If Austin Hooper hits the market he's a guy I'd go after.

Hunter Henry should be considered as well.

When’s the last time you called out your boss? Do you stay employed?

"Tact is the ability to tell someone 'Go to Hell' in such a manner as to make them anticipate the trip."

-- Winston Churchill


I call out or turn down direction from my boss regularly if it doesn't make sense. The key is in how you do it. You explain your misgivings, you ask for clarifications, you present alternatives that accomplish the same goals without the misgivings, you speak without being confrontational or offensive, etc...

Literally this morning. That's why we have weekly meetings and calls. To go over strategy, marketing, updates, etc.

If I feel a position is incorrect, its my duty as a leader to state what I see, why I see it, and present any information to the contrary of their opinion.

As my leader, it is her job to take my insight, consider it, and make a decision. Sometimes she agrees, other times she doesn't.

THAT is a true collaborative effort. I have called my boss out several times when they were wrong. I have even called out my CEO once. Respectfully obviously, but my opinion was made, taken into consideration and then acted upon.

I feel sorry for those that do not work in that environment.

The problem with this org. is that Jimmy takes what one person says, then another person, then another person. He doesn't CONSIDER everything. He picks a favorite flavor of the week, rides that opinion or that person until they are wrong, then axes them and goes to the next guy. All they while, giving Jimmy the ability to say "well its his fault, but I got the right people now"

Im gonna let you in a little secret. We have hired and fired a lot of good people, GMs and coaches. They were not the problem, the organization and structure is the problem.

Heck, the US military breeds its NCO's to do this very thing for its young Ensigns and Lieutenants.

A leader that doesn't take feedback isn't a leader, it's a dictator - and those ALL get deposed. You don't have to follow their advice, but the wise leader absolutely will listen and consider the things brought up. A big part of leading is doing exactly that and still pushing through, and getting your subordinates to buy into, a course of action that the others dislike or may not agree with because you see more of the big picture than they do (and they may not be able to see).

1000% agreed.

The best leaders are the ones that know where their weaknesses are, and surround themselves with those that are strong in those areas and weigh their advice heavily as that is their specialty.

EXACTLY. Jimmy literally doesn't know what he doesn't know. He needs to stay in his lane (marketing) and let the football guys run the team. Until Jimmy does this, nothing will change long term. Of course, Jimmy being the arrogant jackass that he is, will not change. The Browns will continue to be the out of control dumpster fire that they are.

I do hope that those of you spending money on this dumpster fire can summon the necessary discipline to stop doing so. Watch them on TV and be done with it.

At this point, I dont even care if its the depo crew, or the football guys that get the say - I just want a solid structure and go from there. We are in this ever rounding battle of "whos at fault" because NO ONE knows who is who in this organization, no one knows who is whos boss, or who reports to who. Its a constant power struggle in the building, and its not going to change.

KS might be a great football coach.

If this structure doesn't change, he will not succeed.

Playoffs? say what?

Not with this we won't:



There is no way any coach is going to succeed with some knucklehead stats moron meddling in the coaches headset demanding certain plays be called. Playcalling is going to be influenced by a baseball manager...one that ruined the Dodgers mind you.

Add in Haslam increasing his meddling in the football operations by demanding hours long Monday meetings with the coach to go over his game plans and give his "expert" football opinions on what KS should do...you kidding me?

This dysfunction will probably be worse than what it was with Sashi Brown, add in Mr. Assistant 0-16/1-31 in Andrew Berry and well...you get where this is going.

this is the most dysfunctional thing I have ever seen or ehad out of the Browns and boy have i witnessed some dysfunction over the years...

I have hammered this decision so far, but to be fair. . .

I dont think Depo is going to be involve in the actual play calling. I do think he will have input with his numbers on certain plays, and when and what times they would be useful to call, but I dont think hell have a headset on and telling the play caller (whomever that is) when and what to call. If that is the case though, this will fail faster than I thought.

it's KoB. Just let him be out in left field.

Advice for the new coach.

Advice point number one. If you get to a point where you could gain an advantage, early in the game, expect the Refs' to stall your drive or help the other teams drive to make sure you don't succeed.

Time and time again, I watch old time football clips, and one thing is there, have 2-3 go to plays, you know you can make work. Be it Browns sweeps, or Steeler trap plays, whatever. Work those plays over and over. You have to be able to lean on bread and butter.

I think we have that guy in Carleson.

or maybe the kid with the hyphenated last name?? He was doing pretty well in spots.

LOL - Stephen Carlson like George Kittle. C'mon man.

everyone keeps using this same cantonrep article to try to make these damning statements

this is the third time I will add that the article doesn't claim any of the demands of analytics are real

instead the article says

"What follows is our belief about the elements of Stefanski’s interview Thursday and McDaniels’ interview Friday that left Stefanski as Haslam’s seventh head coach since he bought the team in 2012."

People keep using Twitter too. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

What makes you people believe this is going to end well??

Lord Jimmy is on number 5 LOL!!!!!!

end well? um probably not but because we have already seen everything horrible there is to see there no reason to go overboard one way or the other.

I am not going to compare Carlson to Kittle , but the kid caught my eye in training camp ( think I sent Purp a PM on him ).. Thought he showed some skill for UDFA from AN Ivey school ..Was hoping he would have moved from the Practice squad to game day much sooner in the season. Curious to see what the new regime thinks of him .. Watch him get cut before Camp. lol

Personally, I think he s a solid number 3 TE. Nothing more as of yet. He's young enough to still be able to develop.

I'm definitely rooting for him.

I absolutely loathe the term "Football guys".

Brandon Beane might be the best executive in the league....not a "Football guy"


Eric Decosta is one of the best NFL executives in the past few decades.....played small ball at Trinity college


Belicheck went to Wesleyan college and graduated with an economic degree.



"Football guy" is a nonsense term made up for NFL Gatekeepers.

Yup, Im soooooo far out in left field:



So KS has to get his game plan together, then he has to turn that over to Haslam and Depo every Friday so they can go over his plan with their "expert eyes" and approve his weekly game plan for the game. There is no way in **** we can be sucessful this way.

Neither Depo nor Haslam have any damn clue what is a good and a bad plan for football. Furthermore, KS was required to allow a Depo crony to have a headset and access to the coaching staff on the sidelines during games to give input into play calling

It doesn't take a genius to figure out this is a total disaster.

Again its not that I dislike KS, I just know our ownership isn't going to give him the time he needs to be successful and they are already setting him up to fail with this BS.

Haslam values the advice of a baseball manager who uses Google over people with expereince drafting and coaching professional football with track records of success, its a problem.

I just hope KS gets paid well, he is going to need it.

OH MY GOD !! They have to discuss and communicate.
Shocker.
End of the freaking world.

There's only one problem with that. How many years did it take for BB to transition into a winning HC coach, or "football guy" as you put it?

If you look at his record in his first two years as an NFL HC, Haslam would have fired him if he were hired here. It's not that guys with an economics degree can't be "football guys". It's just that it doesn't happen in the microwave fashion that Haslam wants it to.

And let's stop pretending BB hadn't worked his way up for years in the coaching ranks. Football guys are developed for years. He wasn't working in the economics part of football all those years while developing his acumen.

It's been done here before, talked about here before. Tried here before. And I've read posts like this hundreds of times during those years.

Yet it's always turned out the same way. Which leads us right back to where we are. Square one.

Bpg...sorry, but in Cleveland, 20 yrs of baseball experience does not suddenly make anyone into a football guy.

Play him an see.


I saw him make a TD catch over the top of a defender.

Plus, why ask out players to compare to the best? How about asking them to be good to very good?

I am telling you, the kid can be pro-bowl good if given the looks.

pit...you saying you believe the team will regress, instead of improve under the numbers boys?

The first time the analytics boys were in charge of managing the Browns, they fired all the football scouts who disagreed with the numbers boys, concerning the evaluation of Carson Wentz.

Surely the numbers guys are man enough to admit that the "football guys" have the team playing better now.

If the Browns analytics management team begins to tear down the football structure and this team steps back from 6 or 7 wins in 2020, there will be a fan revolt.

Browns fans know we have talent and all the new guys need to do is add to the talent level in areas of need.

Thank you. People keep freaking out about this article (including Chris Simms) and the whole thing is a riff, a conjecture piece by Doerschuk who clearly had a favorite and claims browns fans had a favorite as if that matters at all!? It’s not reporting, it’s an opinion piece. People gots to chill.

I wasn't impressed with Carlson's blocking. Especially in goal to go situations.

I did start looking at TEs in the draft a bit. So far I'm liking Asiasi from UCLA. The QB and OL were a mess, but I liked what I saw from him.

NO ONE...NO ONE, expects the Browns to regress this year.

I don't give a damn who takes credit for getting the Browns in the playoffs in 2020, but failure to do so is going to be one helluva shock to every Browns.

The table is set, the weakness are obvious and now all that has to happen is improve upon the weaknesses.

...OR ARE SOME LOOKING FOR REASONS TO JUSTIFY A REGRESSION IN 2020?

No excuses, just win!

Regressing two years in a row would be a tough pill to swallow.

I agree. He’d be a perfect DC here.

We had a terrible schedule in 2019. On paper, our schedule appears to be easier for 2020. We'll see.

Going from 3 - 13 BS (before Sashi) to 1-15 in Sashi’s 1st year to 0 - 16 in his last year prepared us well for regressing even when year to year regression was ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE ....

I agree. I don't know that it is playoffs or bust but 9 wins should be attainable.

All it took was for Hue to say "hold my beer".

I won't address the rest of your post, but this part I will.

I have actually never indicated that at all. I was speaking purely about the fact that Haslam has tried to use this structure before. Where people at the top have an equal say and everyone reports to him. Some people can succeed doing things this way. Some don't. Thus far his track record indicates he has had no success trying this structure.

As far as the analytics? I think there's a huge false portrait of what's been going on within this team by posters on this board. Not that they are doing it on purpose, it's just their "feelings" without giving it due thought process.

For posters to believe we are somehow turning a page on analytics and just now will be employing it and considering it on a large scale aren't thinking this through at all. Now maybe Dorsey didn't care for it. Some claim Dorsey didn't use it.

However, DePodesta was hired in January of 2016. People claim the DePodesta wasn't really used in that first draft.



Depodesta has been heavily involved since making his first trip to Berea. We have been using analytics all along. I'm sure it hasn't been the deciding factor in every decision the team has made, but it has been an influential tool all along. Including the Corey Coleman pick.

To think otherwise would be ignoring the above quote directly from the horses mouth. To think otherwise one would have to believe that Haslam has been paying DePodesta since Jan. of 2016 while totally ignoring the very skill set he hired him for in the first place.

To at least some degree, we have been "under the numbers guys" since DePodesta was hired. And here we are...... again.

Production is impacted by chance.


I think if he was given the looks, he would produce.

https://heavy.com/sports/2020/01/browns-chris-simms-dumpster-fire/



This whole thing is a dumpster fire, and the National Media is rightly calling it so. the only saving grace we have is this failure forces Haslam to sell the damn team. The NFL has to be getting close to stepping in, allowing Haslam to buy an NFL franchise was a mistake. We the fans have had to suffer for it.

Stefanski was hired because he is a "Yes man". Don't think the players don't see their coach bowing to some pencil pushing baseball manager like Depodesta having say in his game plans, and his crony on the sideline trying to influence playcalling.

Had I known we were getting this, I'd have rather stuck with Dorsey, he at least knew what he was doing when it came to finding football players and talent, sure his management style needed some refining, but he knew talented football players.

This won't end well.

Screw him.

Ha - Chris Simms calling Gary Kubiak's offense basic and bull crap. Brilliant, Simms - you schmuck.

#MediaExpert

People have to learn to not take talk shows seriously.
Seriously. For real.

They manufacture drama, division, and talking points to create discussion where there isn't much to be had. It's their job. One person ALWAYS takes the over-the-top oppositional view.... it's how the format works. It's just part of the scripted act.

Ya, his opinion is so off the wall there’s no way that wasn’t scripted and he actually believes it .... ....

I don't know per say this is just an opinion.

I listened to the presser of DePodesta today.

I think people have gone overboard on what his power truly is.

Haslam is the power. Not his wife. Not DePodesta. Not his son-in-law. Jimmy.

He is the power. Has been and will be.

I think Simms is misinformed.

Depo is solely a support guy providing information and process structure. Nothing more.

Depo seemed very straight forward about what he does.

He was very right in describing the cost behind change.

In the end it is all about winning. Every team has issues. Every team is always looking for an edge. Only one team gets the trophy.

Rosters change a lot each year. Players and coaches move from team to team.

You must pick good players. You have to put them in position to use their skills. Accountability and production is what matters.

2020. Opening day we will see the product of everyone's efforts.

Just win baby. Just win

Anybody who believes Depo will have in game access to the coaches are fools. Game plans will use data, analytics people will not be in the coaches ear during games. I swear sometimes I can't believe the absurdity of some of this stuff.

peen...you talking to me? Really?

Here's the real problem. If a great HC, former player or former NFL GM goes to work for the media, people will use the excuse he's a "media expert" to dismiss the fact they have far more NFL knowledge than they do. Like decades of experience mean nothing now that they have applied those decades of knowledge in another profession.

It's hilarious.

Cleveland Browns chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta addressed the media following the hiring of Kevin Stefanski as head coach.

peen...you talking to me? Really? [/quote



No, it just came up you. That was a comment to something KOB posted.


Sorry for the confusion.

I was very impressed by Depos interview...Like him or not.. I do

This is just my 2 cents. I’ve never played organized football but I try and absorb as much info as I can and learn as much as is possible without ever experiencing it. (Other than streetball).

I get the general fear on this board of yet another change. I also get the ineptitude if the owners to this point. What I’m having a difficult time with is how badly misconceived everyone’s idea of how they plan to use analytics in the daily grind. Of course first and foremost every single applicant was made aware of how the Browns planned on approaching the head coaching position and I have yet to hear one of them come back and state how ridiculous the demands were. Including McDaniels.

That being said, I’m assuming everyone heard both Stefanski and DePodesta and how they are approaching the analytical side of the game yes?

My understanding is that analytics are being used to set a framework to lessen the uncertainty of random choice. Simplified how many times have you been watching a game and screamed at the TV that running up the middle for two yards on first down never works? I know I do it all the time. The idea of analytics is to put a number on that rather than plucking a figure out of thin air. On first and ten from your own 30 is only successful 18% of the time. I know I’m simplifying it but I’m trying to say that maybe just maybe everyone is jumping to the extreme when they hear analytics guy on a headset. I doubt highly that an analytics guy calls one play or tells the coach I told you so. They are there to help clarify the unknowns.

As far as DePodesta running the team, once again paranoia complex from a ton of people. Haslam looked back at the two previous choices by the analytics team and the success of him going against that and decided to go whole hog. Can you really blame him with the pressure he put on himself with all this?

I genuinely believe he is trying to bring the fans a good product no matter how badly it has worked to this point.

Here's a link to Jimmys interview.. I like him too.


link

U like the thief? ....

yes I do...and I like you... you and the thief must have something in common... Hmmmmm ?

No doubt he is the smartest guy in the room 90% of the time. Maybe 97% of the time..



I do know some don't like that.

The thief and I have sumptin in common ... not sure i like u anymore ... *L* ...

Yes you do have sumptin in common.. you both love the Browns and act like you know how to fix it ...lmbo.. I'm sorry bro.. but dang lol...

He might be a smart man, but he’s a terrible NFL owner and worse, can’t see that he is.

He can’t identify a good football coach. If he could, we wouldn’t be on... how many coaches and GMs has he hired and fired?

“Mediocrity know nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius”

- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

I believe Peen was referring to DePodesta, not Haslam.

It's a new day for the Cleveland Browns as they introduced Kevin Stefanski as their next head coach after reportedly inking him to a five-year deal. During his introductory press conference, one of the more noteworthy nuggets that came from the new leading man in Northeast Ohio was him disputing a report that he'll have to meet with the Browns analytics team for game-plan approval every Friday.

"It's not true," said Stefanski. "I liked that report. That was a good one."

Oh, if true, sorry about the mistake, I had a seniors moment.

at least I got my thoughts on Haslam on record again.

I

Hue might have been a good coach, if not for the tear down... Pettine might have been a good coach, if not for Farmer. Contrary to popular belief, not everything is the coaches fault, the GM comes into play as well...

When someone ties your arms, it's hard to swing the football helmet...

[quote=SaintDawg]It's a new day for the Cleveland Browns as they introduced Kevin Stefanski as their next head coach after reportedly inking him to a five-year deal. During his introductory press conference, one of the more noteworthy nuggets that came from the new leading man in Northeast Ohio was him disputing a report that he'll have to meet with the Browns analytics team for game-plan approval every Friday.

"It's not true," said Stefanski. "I liked that report. That was a good one." [/quote


Indeed. Glad we can put that to bed.

Cleveland Browns have to stop this cycle of embarrassing coaching changes
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/01...ng-changes.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio — For the fifth time in eight years, Browns owner Jimmy Haslam had a press conference to introduce a new coach.

That’s why I probably wasn’t alone in feeling a little numb listening to Kevin Stefanski outline his ideas for reviving the Browns.

It’s not the fault of Stefanski, who came across as a sincere guy who doesn’t have all the answers to what haunts this franchise. But what could he say that Browns fans haven’t heard before from a new coach?

He’s different from Freddie Kitchens, the one-and-done coach of 2019. Kitchens tried to come across as a man of the people, wearing Dawg Pound Sweatshirts during games.

Kitchens’ big line was, “If you don’t wear Brown and Orange, then you don’t matter.” It made some fans smile until they saw him in action on game days.

There were strange decisions combined with a lack of discipline that led to the Browns correctly waving the white flag on Kitchens.

Of all the first-time Browns head coaches I’ve covered as a columnist (Stefanski makes No. 9 since 1999), Kitchens was the most overwhelmed and disorganized. He was the anti-analytic coach because there seemed to be no system or grand plan behind some of his decisions.

The hiring of Stefanski is a clear reaction to that.

NEW DIRECTION

Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta mentioned the need for a coach to be a “CEO” for the team.

A year ago, Stefanski was DePodesta’s choice, but the football operation and Haslam went with Kitchens.

This time, DePodesta led the coaching search and it ended for him in the same place it did a year ago, with the 37-year-old Minnesota Vikings offensive coordinator.

DePodesta talked about the need for a “shared vision.”

He talked about the coach “helping collaboration...sharing information.”

It almost sounds like an elementary school teacher telling the kids to “play nice and help each other.”

But the Browns do need that. For years, they have been a simmering bubbling bowl of discontent.

Analytics vs. old-fashioned football.

GM vs. coach.

Clashing egos, insecure personalities and a frustrated beaten-down fan base.

That has been Browns football.

It’s what Haslam and DePodesta hope will end with the hiring of Stefanski followed by a GM who will buy into the Browns analytic-based approach to team building.

They also like Stefanski’s demeanor, calling him “natural...authentic...collaborative.”

Haslam said the new coach is “humble.”

That is how Stefanski came across.

If nothing else, the building (for now) seemed unified on the hiring of Stefanski.

WHICH WAY WORKS?

Part of DePodesta’s job is to help create the “shared vision” and make sure people “stick to it.”

After he said that, I asked about the impact of the only constant with the Browns being change from coaches to general managers. He admitted there is “a real cost to change...We have to get it right.”

DePodesta and I chatted casually for a few moments after the press conference. He mentioned how the Browns have to “develop an identity...a way” of doing business and “stick to it.”

I mentioned how his old team – the Indians – do exactly that. DePodesta began his career in pro sports as an intern with the Tribe in 1996.

And the Indians are a successful, stable team with a clear “way” of doing business in a sport stacked against them because of the lack of a salary cap.

“There is no one way (to win)," said DePodesta. “We have to create our own way and own it."

Agreed.

Sticking with the new coach and the new front office for more than a wink of an eye is the only “way” that things will change in the right direction for the Browns.

jc...

NO MORE "MONEYBALL" IN CLEVELAND, THANK YOU!

There is no need to start playing the Moneyball game again...no need to gut the present team of the talent that helped the franchise dig out of the 1-31 record, that is now (and forever) part of the Cleveland Browns history. Browns fans have already endured enough of that kind of self inflicted intentional pain, with the 2016 team finishing with a 1-15 record, only to break that 1 win record the following season by going winless in 2017.

Today, it is not a secret, the Browns do have areas of need that are obvious and should be addressed via the draft and free agency during this offseason.

There is no need to play Moneyball with the 2020 draft. Bypassing the best talent, trading away our #10 pick in the 1st and 2nd rounds just to gain more picks in the 2021 draft.

The Browns need to add "the best talent available" at the areas of need rather than focusing on the number of picks that can be accumulated in future drafts.

Hopefully, the goal of the Browns new management team for the 2020 season is the same as many Browns fans...to watch the Browns qualify for the PLAYOFFS!.
...4 more wins added to the 6 win season of 2019, should be enough.
...a 10 win season should be enough to "at least" secure a wild card birth.

The best way for Haslam and his Moneyball management team to gain support is to produce on the field.

For the success of the franchise, finding the right blend of Moneyball and Football is going to be a challenge given the egos of the individuals involved.

Rather than ignoring the opinions of the football side, Haslam and Depodesta need to utilize the football expertise assembled over the last two seasons to help in the selection of the best draft talent.

Hopefully the 2020 version of the "Browns management team" can focus on what is most important and will help to improve the team's bottom line...WINS..10 WINS.

I haven't checked in on this thread all that much, but has anyone told mac that the Browns haven't been in tear down mode for at least 2 seasons now?

ssssshh! Don't spoil it for mac...

Dang, sorry! I'm such a clumsy oaf

Lord, the point of the post...with the analytics now in charge once again...DON'T RETURN TO TEARING DOWN THE BROWNS like was done in 2016!

...and don't return to the type of management style that was record setting for all the WRONG REASONS...

...don't go firing all the FOOTBALL SCOUTS 3 weeks before the draft because the football scouts disagreed with the new analytics guy..like back in 2016...

the point of my reply was that you are basing the premise of your post on a strawman position. You're asserting that tearing down what so far has been built is the intention of the "numbers guys" or at the very least likely. And if you claim neither of those is the case, than your whole point is completely irrelevant.

If you are interested in truth in advertising, the title of this thread should be "It's finally time to let the numbers boys finish what they started".

Yes. Love it!

How long have you been a Browns fan?

Ever notice what happens in Cleveland when there is a front office turnover?

CHANGES OCCUR...some changes help the team but too many times I've watched a turn over of front office and support personnel, coaches and players dismissed and instead of helping the team win, it hurt the team.

Just a few years ago, some guy with no NFL experience came riding into Cleveland and fired scouts on the football side 3 weeks before the draft in part, because they disagreed with this new guy about assessing NFL QBs.

Turns out, those scouts were correct in their assessment and the "new guy" was wrong.

I hope this franchise never returns to that kind of an operation and the numbers boys learn how utilize the opinions and assessments of the football scouts to help make better draft picks, FOR THE GOOD OF THE FRANCHISE.

Personally, I believe there is about a 50-50 chance that the Browns revert back to tearing down the team to play the draft day Moneyball game once again.

It seems that ownership and management believe Browns fans so stupid that we wouldn't pickup on that scheme if it were tried once again. I happen to believe that while there are some Browns fans so in love with analytics and moneyball games, that they would intentionally ignore it and make excuses for the Moneyball concept if the team did slide back to 2 or 3 wins in 2020, just to compile extra draft picks in 2021.


It might be best to discuss the subject of Moneyball now, before the Browns owner and management team attempt to play that game once again.

Analytics isn't always in tear down mode.


We went back because our "football guy" screwed the pooch with his hand picked head coach.



It is all a matter of choice....I prefer a smart guy like Depo over a Doofus like Dorsey.


But, that is just my opinion.

peen...actually, none of us know that to be fact, DO WE?

I haven't heard Haslam nor Depodesta speak to the subject of draft strategy for 2020 or if the idea of using the Browns #10 pick in rounds 1 and 2 to accumulate more draft picks in future years will once again become a top priority for the Browns now that analytics is king in Cleveland once again..

Well, anyone who has been paying attention the last few years DOES know that for a fact.

Should I do it?

Got to...

2847...why do you think the Browns would change the draft strategy Depodesta established in 2016 and 2017?

You mean aside from the fact that analytical and data driven processes are constantly under refinement and there for by their very nature are subject to changes?

Or do you mean aside from the fact that organizational changes are often done in "phases"? And while phases build off of the one before it and carry similarities, they are still different enough to allow them to be designated their own "phase".

Or do you mean, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong... We took Baker #1 right? It was a guy Dorsey was looking at even before being hired by the Browns. IIRC Baker also appeared to be a good analytical pick? It's probably best I'm wrong on this one though... we wouldn't want a bunch of guys known for having the sole goal of trading away picks for other Drafts actually using the #1 pick.

Or may be it's because I happened to notice there was also a 2018 and 2019 season where players were acquired. We know Dorsey was the football guy making picks and trades. We, I think, can all agree that Dorsey didn't value the nerds as much as maybe he could have. What we don't know however, is to what extent the nerds may have been ignored and irrelevant during those 2 years. Did Dorsey go all Maverick, to hell with everyone else? Or was he happy to let the nerds do the grunt work while he positioned himself to make sure everyone saw he was the one making decisions?

I fully expect the nerds to keep assessing the value of future picks. Even the football guys do.

I assume you're talking about Phil Simms' opinion, or was it Chris Simms' opinion, that's alredy been posted in this thread.
IN that case, I like it.

Mac, it's foolish to think analytics is always in a state of tearing down the team. LOL Wow.

There will certainly be changes in the roster. How much or how little is anyone's guess at this time.

Agreed. My guess is that the amount will be less than what the doomsayers are saying, but honestly probably a little more than who are encouraged about numbers guys having more influence might think. Its really going come down to how much the players Dorsey acquired fit in with where the nerds were heading anyway.

For example I'd find it hard to believe that the numbers would suggest OBJ would NOT be a smart addition. Even if the numbers disagreed with what we spent for him, it wasn't a move that amounted to a disastrous mistake where they should feel like they need to recoup as much of their 'losses' by unloading him.

My hope is that Stefanski will tell the numbers guys the "type of player" he needs in terms of skill set and they go into the process with that in the forefront of their decision making. ie..... If you plan to change the OL to the zone blocking scheme, you need more agile, athletic type players along the OL.

At that juncture it would be my hope that the first factor in the equation of acquiring players for the OL would be that style of player. We've seen too often the disconnect and how round pegs have tried to be forced into square holes.

I think that's the entire goal in this entire process and as Browns fans I'm sure we all hope it turns out that way.

Yes.

And here is an area of concern for me at this juncture: does Stefanski have a clear idea what he wants to implement? I think scheme is probably an area that the analytics are the least influential because there are so many different ways to play and win. But the guy driving that vision has to be able to give the numbers guys a good description of that.

In terms of the offensive line, I'd think that is a position that numbers would place a high value on (and I think someone has posted an organizational chart to suggest that) because that investment is what is going to protect and solidify everything else.

I would think Stefanski does have a specific vision of what he wishes to implement. It's purely conjecture on my part, but one would think that would be an important part of the interview process. He has commented about the coaches he is impressed by and the systems they run.

My hope is that his plan isn't etched in stone. Having a HC who would be flexible enough to adjust and tweak his scheme to fit your current roster would be a wonderful thing. So my guess is he certainly has a system which he will want to stay very close to with possible variables based on the current roster.

In regards to the OL, we have needs already there. We need upgrades at both OT's positions at a minimum. RG may be workable. Since those upgrades are already needs, there would be no reason at all not to fill those needs with the type of players Stefanski desires to best run his preferred zone blocking scheme.

peen...you can't tell us what mode or frame of mind Depodesta might be in come draft day, 2020.

The only reason Depodesta didn't continue to play his Moneyball games in 2018 and 2019 was because he was not in charge of the Browns draft.

While you seem to be convinced that Depodesta isn't going to return to Moneyball mode this season by sacrificing roster talent and/or draft talent to gain more draft picks in future drafts...I would not be the least bit surprised if Haslam and Depodesta pull a fast one on those Browns fans who believe the Browns might have a chance to make the playoffs in 2020.

Haslam nor Depodesta have done nothing to earn my trust in their ability.

The Patriots are heavy in analytics, when was the last time they were in tear down mode ? The Vikings use it, they have an analytics hub in their practice facility. Are they in tear down mode ? The Steelers use analytics, they say they try to find an advantage in what they do with it. You have to figure out what the numbers tell you and use it to your advantage. It is not all about tear down for future years.

Of course there will. That happens on every team, every year. Even more when you have a coaching and GM change. But that doesn't mean we are tearing it up and starting over like we did several years ago. We knew we were going to lose games then.

It isn't the same today. I don't think there is any expectation that we are going to be looking at 3-4 wins The process is different now than it was then.

That doesn't mean we won't do some of the same things. We could trade back at #10 depending how the board is shaping up. All of that is still a part of the plan. I am not saying I want to do that, but it could make sense.

It appears Haslas certainly thinks this team is capable of making the playoffs. Others, not so much.

Browns ownership made it clear to candidates throughout the lengthy interviewing process that they believe they have a roster talented enough to do big things in 2020, despite all of the issues of locker room culture that have dogged them for years.

"They think they are really close, seriously," said one person who has intimate knowledge of the search. "They think they are right on the cusp of greatness. I really couldn't believe it."

Another source with direct knowledge of the search said he believed that ownership was "delusional" in terms of the team's actual standing and the breadth of the task at hand, and the repeated inability to stick with a front office structure that has had a modicum of success.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/brown...-year-as-coach/

If last year taught us anything, we had it overhyped. We clearly have holes, but again, I do think we have the talent to win.

With the new coaching staff we will have some growing pains, but we should win 8-9 games .

I think coaching is needed .. I think discipline is needed .. I think a coach that does not think he is the only person who knows anything is needed .. and I think a GM who is willing to say to the coach "Houston, we have a problem .." is needed. if all those issues are solved, then the Browns could win 8 - 10 games. The talent is there, but some tweaks are needed as well. I do not think anyone is delusional in thinking the Browns are close to being ready to be a playoff contender. We just have to wait and see if those things can fall into place.

I think we are saying the same thing your response was just more detailed.

I certainly disagree with anyone thinking we will be in tear down mode.

j/c...

Couple points about that ...

1) The part that the owner is "delusional" about is that the team is ready to take the next step and be playoff competitive right now.

2) The person who made those comments was one of the people who DIDN'T get the job as Head Coach.

3) So, the person who made those comments thinks that we can't compete with roster as it is, (where new team after new team can reach the playoffs every year without major roster reconstruction), and feels we would need a minor to major tear-down and rebuild to get where we're competitive, because the roster we have now was put together poorly. In which case, I'm glad Dorsey is gone ... OR ... the coach can't make due with the roster as currently constructed and would have to bring in a bunch of guys that would "fit" what he wanted to do. In which case, I'm glad he didn't get the job.

The report was also written by La Canfora .. a writer who takes every opportunity he has to rip the Browns. If you noticed the story, there were no attribution to the remarks. I would almost bet his source is McDaniels ... jmho

La Canfora broke a few stories when John Dorsey was in charge. . .

That is certainly one way to look at it. But another way of looking at it is those reporters who "rip the Browns" are more often right than they are wrong.

No one said that he was wrong about the quote, what I was pointing out was that he had an unidentified source, who did not get the job, and La Canfora was using said unidentified source to rip the Browns, and was doing so before Free Agency, before the draft, before staff was hired, and before any trades are made.

Whether a reporter knew anything or not, ripping the Browns over the past 20 years would make anyone sound credible.

One thing to point out is that there is a cost to all of this coaching/front office change. It takes time for a new coaching staff to come in, implement their schemes, coach the players, etc. Changing from a losing culture to a winning one doesn't (usually) happen overnight. More times than not, there's a step back when there's a regime change.

It would be helpful if some of our key players were more invested in offseason training and activities. Though that is not a guarantee that we will have success next year. However, those key players not being invested would be a pretty good bet that it would be another disappointing season. Let's hope they learned from past mistakes and do better this time around.

Haus...the table is set!

The Browns offense has so few holes that need to be addressed that even the average NFL fan could point out the Browns offensive needs.

I do believe ownership/management could screw up this opportunity and make the entire process more difficult than it needs to be.

On the defensive side of the ball there is work that needs to be done...STOP THE RUN and build roster depth to STOP THE RUN.
The Browns pass defense was not horrible..but average.

The question becomes, does management focus on the areas that need to be improved upon or do they come in and rip the team up and start playing Moneyball once again?

I think you can rest easy. We aren't looking to rip up the team.

On O, it is easy...we have 2 positions of need. OL and TE. I bunch all the line positions in to one. We need to bring in a OL who can start day 1. Probably a few agent and a top draft pick. Then maybe another FA for veteran depth and another mid/late round rookie. We have several OL players who have been around 2-3 years and they haven't done much. Might be time to filter a few of them out and go with something fresh.

TE...unsettled position. I would look to create some competition there, be it draft or FA.

D needs to be a big focus. We basically need players at every position. JOESHO is up in the air as to his return,. I think we will want him back, but all it takes is one team throwing around silly money and that ruins that.

I don't have faith in the young backer we drafted last year, but another year under the belt might change the outlook, but linebacker is weak.

We also need a run stuffing big guy on the line, someone to replace Vernon, safties, and another corner never hurt anything.

We probably aren't going to get all of that done this off season.

I guess the bigger question would be do fans understand what the term Moneyball means? And will they blame "Moneyball" for every transaction they disagree with?

Some fans, yes. The ones that constantly use the phrase "Moneyball," no.

I think a lot of that will depend on the results. If they win it will be all good. If they lose they'll deserve the same treatment everyone else has gotten.

That too, but I have seen a shift in people from being uneasy to now at least have a better understand now that DePo is more in the light and not some sinister figure stuffed away in some office.

I think most people understand that with a new coach and scheme, some players might not fit, but that would be more of a edict from the football coach than anyone else.

I am looking forward to seeing how we attack FA and the draft ...

Right now we have $52,160,015 to spend, but I see that growing, with possible cuts of Olivia Vernon with a $15,500,000 cap hit, Christian Kirksey $9,950,000, Chris Hubbard $7,268,750, TJ Carrie $8,150,000 Just to name a few ... That alone raises our cap total to an eye-popping $93, 028, 765

I don't think it is that easy. How much dead money would we have to absorb?

Regardless, we can add some good football players this offseason with our cap situation

Not only that, you would have to factor the cost of what it takes to replace the holes you just opened up. Only then would you arrive back at square one with the same holes we currently have.

I agree with you. It's far more complicated than he's making it sound.

LOL....OK, that we can do, but if we cut those guys, the dead money could leave us with less that $52 mil. Maybe a little more. I don't know their contract details.

I'm a little worried about the Cleveland tax. Last year's optimism didn't last long. I don't expect to see many free agents rushing to sign here.

Possibly, but we have been saying that for a decade and still manage to land our fair share of free agent players.

Maybe not the best ones, but we really don't need the best ones. If we can land a few solid guys on each side of the ball would do wonders.

My view of solid is players who could start for maybe a little more than half the teams in the league, maybe even a little more because I have to discount some of the bad teams who have to start whoever they have. The teams they might not start for are teams with a premium player at that position.

I think we've both been from the train of thought that you don't need pro bowlers everywhere to have a great team.

No doubt, plus, you'll never get that.

Cutting Vernon? That's an interesting thought. Vernon was one of our better defenders and he's in the final year of his contract. How do you suggest replacing Vernon and will it really cost less?

https://overthecap.com/calculator/cleveland-browns/

I'm showing 83 million on this website. Not really bad at all. All those contracts gone and only 10 million in dead money.

We'd gain 7.5 million off Kirko. 15.5 million off Vernon. 6.35 million off Carrie. 4.9 million off Hubbard.


Either way, i'd say Kirksey (love him, but he's aging, expensive and not dependable at this point) should go and we ought to take that savings and put it toward Schobert.

And at 15.5 million per year, i'd have to imagine we can find a guy better for us than Vernon. Vernon is good when he plays, but he was injured a lot this year. He was injured a lot for the Giants last year. 10 for us this year. 11 for the Giants last year. 12 for the Giants the year before. Vernon is going into his 9th NFL season. It's hard not to think he isn't starting to break down.

Chris Hubbard was awful this season. He aint worth 4.9 million (including dead money). So you lose him.

Tender Hunt with a 2nd Round Tender. Franchise Joe Schobert and we'd still have about 65 million in cap room to look for a starting tackle and starting DE to put alongside Garrett. (Plus hopefully resign Higgins). That can be accomplished with plenty of money left over to roll into next year for when we have to re-sign guys like Big Larry and Myles Garrett

Arik Armstead if the 49ers cannot figure out a way to keep him which is a real possibility. With Joe Woods set to become our next DC maybe it works out.

Armstead may not cost significantly less, but he’s younger and produces more.

Thanks for the effort on the salaries!

Cutting Vernon doesn't make any sense. He is a valuable player and he only has one year left on his contract. There is not a place where a replacement for Vernon can be found for a similar price.

Our cap room right now: $50,720,894

Vernon has no dead money on his contract, cut him (which we shouldn't do) and save $15.5M.

New cap room: $65,709,894

Kirksey would cost $2.4M in dead money if we cut him and we would save $7.55M.

New cap room: $72,749,894

Hubbard has $2.4M in dead money, we would save $4.9M.

New cap room: $77,139,894

Carrie has $1.8M in dead money, we would save $6.35M.

New cap room: $82,979,894

So it's not $93M plus but it's much more than we have now.

My guess is we end up keeping Vernon (possibly at a reduced price with an small extension) and cut Morgan Burnett, Demetrius Harris, Eric Kush, and Adarius Taylor. If we make those moves we end up with $76,859,894 in cap space. The cap is not a problem.

I'd rework Vernon's contract to give him a fat chunk up front while extending him a few years. His hit for this year would go up, but he'd get more affordable over time.

Then, I'd still seek to sign another beast at DE (since we have no shot at Chase Young).

I mentioned a few posts up Arik Amstead as possibility to replace Vernon if the 49ers can't figure out a way to keep him and they may not be able too.

p.s. For what it is worth, this appears to be a VERY good Free Agency period to go after RT's, DE's, and DT's.


Some names I'd throw money at:

Jadaveon Clowney, DE
Arik Armstead, DE
Jordan Philips, DT
Vernon Butler, DT
Jack Conklin, RT
Shaquil Barrett, OLB
C.J. Ham, FB

I think we'll find the problem will be some of these guys will be signed before they ever hit the market.

Arik Armstead.

oh, no doubt, but as of right now they are all set to be UFAs.

Some will get resigned, but some will likely at least be curious about testing free agency to see what they can get.

I think that there will be a real shot at either Clowney or Armstead; maybe both. Philips, too, although the Bills have plenty of cap space to resign him. The 49ers are in a bit of a tight spot with the cap, which makes a guy like Armstead a very real possibility.

I do not think it is an overstatement to say that he is half the reason that their defense is as effective as it is. It's like a force multiplier... when you have Dee Ford and Nick Bosa for the other side of that line, a guy like that makes everything flow better.


I'll say it: WGGTG

With Depo having more control of the reins, I don't really expect any high end FA signings. Maybe something mid-tier to fill a hole, but many high priced FA deals tend to end badly. I don't think setting the market fits into the analytical approach to roster construction.

I think when this round of DE deals go around, Vernon's contract might not seem as bad a deal as some are making it out.

I'm not exactly feeling the warm and fuzzies about having someone involved with drafting tackles in Minnesota coming here after watching that.

Armstead being a possibility is something I would be very interested in exploring. I just try and keep a couple of things in mind. For one I've seen teams get very creative when I've thought they had cap issues and secondly the cap will be going up for the 2020 season which will give them more ammunition.

I'm down with C.J. Ham. The others will probably be too expensive for what we are looking for.

I'd throw Brandon Scherff into the mix.

He'd be a great signing. If the Vikings can't work out a long term deal with him, I'll be curious what they tender him at.

I wonder how the contract Jurko signed with the Niners will affect his new contract especially since Jurkos a pretty big part of that O ...

If dudes any good with Kubiak there he ain’t going no where either ....

A lot depends on who they hire as their offensive coordinator.

j/c:

The longer this drags out the more I believe/hope it with be McDaniel with SF.

I'm not surprised at this reaction.

It is what it is.

I would take a long hard look at these 3 ...


Arik Armstead, DE
Jack Conklin, RT
Shaquil Barrett, OLB

I doubt their current teams do not resign them.

If this were the draft, sure. Unfortunately, this go around, they get to do the picking.

I imagine we'd have to put a good bit more money than others into the equation to be considered.

Maybe last year we had a Cinderella feel, but this year we're a pumpkin again.

IMO go hard after a top T in free agency even if you have to pay more, which leaves you with drafting the other T.

Report: George Paton “wasn’t entirely comfortable” with Browns G.M. job

Posted by Mike Florio on January 24, 2020, 4:51 PM EST
link

It’s critical that the 2020 Browns consist of a power structure that resides at all times on the same page. That apparently wouldn’t have happened if Vikings assistant G.M. George Paton had taken the G.M. job there.

Via Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com, Paton removed his name from consideration for the Browns G.M. job because Paton “had a number of issues he had to work through, and wasn’t entirely comfortable with how it would all play out.” Paton also left his second interview with “some questions about the power structure and the division of labor.”

Paton’s decision to stay in Minnesota caps a process that Paton was leery to even commence, given his belief that Andrew Berry was the top choice for the job.

It seems, based on Cabot’s article, that chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta wants Berry and that new coach Kevin Stefanski wanted Paton. Which, if accurate, becomes the latest example of a high-level power struggle with strong “I told you so” potential if when Berry, now the presumptive favorite to get the job, doesn’t work out.

According to Cabot, Paton spent roughly eight hours at team headquarters in Ohio on Tuesday for his second interview. He left unsure whether it was a good fit.

In addition to working with Stefanski, the G.M. also will have to navigate DePodesta, a four-year employee (that’s like 40 in Browns years) who seems to be acquiring more power and influence as key figures like Sashi Brown, Hue Jackson, John Dorsey, and Freddie Kitchens come and go.

Paton went before he even arrived, which for him was the right call. While coaches head often get a second chance if the first stop doesn’t work out, General Managers usually get one bite at the apple. They need to make it the best bite they can.

Can we at least give the clicks to the local newspaper instead of the news aggregators at Pro Football Talk?

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/01...-candidate.html

Depodesta wouldn't manipulate the interview process for GM to insure he gets the people he wants to hire...would he?

I've seen Depos act enough to figure out what is going on...I seriously doubt that Haslam is smart enough to figure it out.

Lolz.

I think this is a more realistic title for this thread / what explains the last 4 years of this franchise.

1) Analytics guys ( Sashi / Depo ) did a third of the job by stacking picks.
2) They tried to also be football guys and failed (EGO).
3) Football guys (Dorsey) did a third of the job by executing on those picks and bringing in talent.
4) Football guys thought they could do better than analytics guys on the field and failed (Dorsey / Kitchens ) (EGO).
5) The analytics guys realized that a more blended approach was necessary and that we needed an analytics guy who also is a football guy (Stefanski). Now it's time for the analytics minded football guys to finish the job.

I don't buy in to that. Sure we would have to pay, but I don't buy in to the factory of sadness thing or Jimmy scares people away. That is just fan talk.

Analytics is about bargains. You can forget signing any big name FA's. The days of making big trades and FA splashes are over. They left town with Dorsey. I suspect the money ball guys will do the opposite. Get rid of as much salary as possible. I would not be surprised if they trade OBJ and Landry and cut Sheldon Richardson and Vernon. I'm not saying they will, just that it would not surprise me one little bit if they did. Those guys love vast amounts of unspent cap space. They love signing the ham and eggers they can get out of the bargain bins.

This is a person that doesn't know what they are talking about.

Frivolous spending and bad contracts are now over!

No more Chris Hubbard, TJ Carrie, Eric Murray, EJ Gaines, Tyrod Taylor, Carlos Hyde, Desmond Harrison, Chris Smith, Eric Kush, Adarius Taylor moves!

Winning the offseason doesn't necessarily equate to winning on Sundays.

Some people choose to be ignorant.

peen...and some are born ignorant and are doomed to stay that way if they choose.

I hope everyone takes the time to listen to Peter King and Mike Florio discussing the Browns

Peter King/Mike Florio discussion

I wouldn't necessarily say this is how it went down, either, though.

Spiritbro is a very passionate Browns-centric poster. Sometimes this just runs away from him a bit, but his 'spirit' is in the right place...

Paton didn't come here because he wanted to stay in Minnesota. 30 other teams could have asked Paton to interview for their GM job and he most likely would stick with Minnesota.

He's turned down several opportunities to be GM to stay with the Vikings. We aren't the only team who was ever interested in Paton. He doesn't come back here for a second interview if he has all these concerns that are being mentioned.

Everyone turning a coach or GM not coming here into being about the structure of the organization and/or Jimmy is laughable. It's typical twisting of events to make the Browns look bad. It's been happening since Holmgren walked through that door or perhaps even earlier.

Jimmy has made mistakes and fired a bunch of people, yes. But you'll never convince me that there isn't a coach or GM out there who thinks they can turn the Browns into winners. McDaniels not coming here isn't a bad thing. Paton not coming here isn't a bad thing. You win, you're not going to be fired. And what coach doesn't think he can win?

I mean we won't actually shred that stigma until we start winning, sure, but twisting everything is starting to be really quite humorous.

Be like Peen and ignore the other side of that coin ...

Instead of VG and OBJ we can look forward to more Kenny Britt’s & Corey Coleman’s ..

Instead of Bake we can have Kizer ...

No more Chubb or Hunt plenty of Isaiah Crowell ...

No more Ward or Mitchells or Randall’s but plenty of Derrick Kindreds and trading of Joe Haden’s ...

How do u like me now ... *L* ...

and tiring

Fan talk with a bit of truth to it.

I was more thinking about this angle, though, really:
Amari Cooper on free agency Link

We don't necessarily scare people away, but we don't really attract players either. If they aren't from the area, I don't think I have ever heard a guy say I want to play in Cleveland unsolicited.

Perhaps if there is a personal connection (coach/teammate), but I don't really see any of those with the players mentioned.

We are all born ignorant. All we know to do is cry, crap, and feed. Other than that, we agree.

I don't know what prompted that comment? I will say it again. John did a great job of bolstering the roster. Like anybody he had his share of misses, but we brought in some solid talent. When you average it out between the hits and misses, I'd say a solid B trending up. He had a lot of nice draft picks to work with, but that is another story that doesn't belong here. With the picks he had he did a nice job. He made some bold moves with FA and trades.

He had one problem...actually two. The first was hiring Freddie Kitchens. That proved to be the start of his downfall. Then, when it was evident Kitchens was overwhelmed, he didn't step in and have Freddie hand over the play calling to Monken. After the script was over, which I am sure Monken was heavily involved, after a drive or two the guy was lost. But, John stuck with his guy...sometimes a fatal flaw in the business world...who was Petines lackey D coordinator?

I can't blame Haslam for not just giving John carte blanche over the next head coaching hire. Had John been agreeable to that, I think he would still be here.

So yes my friend, I do try to look at both sides of the coin. My last few comments on this thread are ironically about people unwilling to look at the other side of the coin.

Please explain to us how you feel that the constant turnover in HC's and FO's do not have a big impact on attracting candidates to those positions?

Please explain how the losing culture this team has had since its return would make Cleveland an attractive destination to FA's?

I know you seem to claim none of these things make a difference, but smart people usually wish to go to an environment that breeds success. A place they feel has the right conditions to help bolster their resume.

I'm not predicting gloom and doom here. What I am doing is wondering how a smart guy like you seems to indicate that obvious factors are being ignored by people that have a vested interest in success.

We actually witnessed one of our good OL players leave here for less money. He'll be playing in the SB next week.

CoCo! The man that secured the 0-16 season with his drop.

A true legend.

Depodesta's comments after drafting Coleman....



So yes, the next Corey Coleman may be on the horizon.

DePo is a glass half-full guy! Love his positivity.

It positively got us Corey Coleman!

JMHO, Coleman was rated best/among the best WRs BEFORE he proved otherwise in NFL. Sad thing is lots of these guys are basketheads....how's K Hunt looking now....another Josh G.....time will tell....Go Browns!!!

That's why anyone can have a draft site and there's only 32 GM jobs in the NFL.

JC...

Have we now reached a point where Corey Coleman is now all Paul DePodesta's fault? Wow.

From Hue Jackson, who said he wanted to nail down a WR in the draft "as fast as I can get one".

"We were able to add a very dynamic football player to our team,'' said Jackson, who's accustomed to the likes of A.J. Green and Marvin Jones. "What a tremendous athlete and the suddenness and quickness. We plan on being very dynamic on offense. This guy truly gives us an opportunity to do that."

From PFF
Corey Coleman isn't perfect, but he's 2016's top WR prospect

I guess we can blame it all on DePo, since he's the only one left, but sometimes these dudes simply don't work out!

No. The quote from Depodesta I posted above shows they were both in agreement. So it's a 5/50 thing. He was just as good as Hue was.

Ahhh, so it's not exactly "mad dog in a meat market" material...

I guess you missed the memo. People on here have claimed for years that Depo had no hand in the first draft after he was hired. That has proven to be false from his own statement.

They have also said he had nothing to do with the Coleman pick. That has also been proven to be false. According to his comment he was all in on the Coleman pick. So if you think that means nothing, have at it.

It's a 50/50 thing b/t Hue and DePo! Which means, it wasn't Sashi's fault! A new revelation.

The only real difference is Depo is still here.

J/C (sorry) - discussing Corey Coleman seems pointless. Was he highly regarded coming into that draft? Yes. Did he bust? Yes.

Lots of draft picks do. In fact the probability is higher than we (or maybe I ) think. I seem to recall a chart posting a historic evaluation of drafted players per round and by position on this site - probably at least a year or maybe more ago. It showed only 50% of WRs taken in the 1st round made it to become starting material.

The draft is a crapshoot. Plain and simple. Some players are can't miss (JT), whilst others seemed like it and really didnt pan out - Aaron Curry, anyone?

I also think hanging the blame on any one individual, in most cases, for a player not being what they should have, is the most flawed blame logic ever. Even Bill misses on picks. The draft appears to be a collation of info from so many sources (scouting during college season, pro days, interviews, shrine and senior bowl games, combine, analytics, owners who interfere, etc) and then trying to order over 300 college players in some sort of order. It's no wonder that the rate of failure can be high and it's also the reason good NFL players drop in the draft. That happens consistently so what does that tell you? It's an imperfect process.

Add that to changing regimes, schemes and automobiles - where we have suffered more than most but happens regularly elsewhere - you have a recipe for consistent failure.

Isn't everyone in every organization always "all-in"?

Not sure how you equate a simple quote about being pleased with the pick as being the ringmaster with a heavy hand in the draft.

So yeah, I think the Coleman pick "means nothing" where DePo is concerned... Meanwhile, you can go on insisting that there will be more picks just like him. Time will tell.

Okay.

Said everyone in the building, all scouting reports, most in the NFL and nearly all Browns fans!

Listen, I don't think DePo is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but some of the comments here lately (not all by you) are that he is some loser that just has a job because Jimmy likes him (some of them even alluding to Jimmy's sexual preference). It's a joke.

Everybody in the league makes or recommends bad picks in every draft. The draft is, and will always be, in many respects - a crap-shoot. We'll make a couple more in this draft and the narrative will shift to DePo as the man making all the mistakes. Meanwhile, we can't seem to get it done on the field no matter how much talent we acquire.

What gets lost on me is the presumption that Jimmy is some masochistic loser that enjoys the pain and just keeps DePo along for the ride.

We're not privy to what goes on behind closed doors. Maybe the proof, and the pudding, has already been served numerous times in draft picks, free agents, schemes and tendencies of opponents that have been revealed or recommended by DePo. If they've been vetoed by previous coaches or GMs we (the fans) would never know he made them in the first place. There's a very solid chance his resume is much better than what we judge it... And has been proven by what has not happened rather than what has. We won't know until a "tell-all" book by Mary Kay.

Maybe, after a season or two, we can judge DePo on his own merits and not just Corey Coleman. Hopefully, we won't need to, because we'll finally have an organization that works to a consensus and keeps everyone on the same page.

Actually you made my point probably better than I could.

You have given an honest evaluation of what some indicate on this board. Now let me give you an honest evaluation of what others are saying on this board.

They seem to claim that analytics is some sort of magic bullet. How now that analytics is the driving force, everything will be peaches and cream. That's simply not true.

As you have pointed out, in every system used you're going to have hits and misses. The law of averages makes this so. If there were actually some magic bullet to drafting and signing players, hiring HC's and GM's, it would have already been figured out by now.

This will be an attempt at yet another go Haslam trying to get it right. It may go better than in the past or we may go yet another step back. Nobody really has any way of knowing that. I certainly don't. However, I find it very disingenuous for people to try and claim that Depo has been being paid lots of money to sit on the sidelines and not be an ingredient of arriving where we are now.

In regards to Halslam, there are outliers who try to portray him as you describe but they are few and far between. But for the most part I feel a lot of people simply see him as someone who is in over his head. I'm not one to come up with an opinion without looking at the evidence. The evidence to this point appears to strongly indicate that has been the case to this point.

For people to say or believe that Haslam enjoys losing or isn't trying to win I find silly at best and to put it mildly. There is nobody in the business world who doesn't want their investment to gain value in the most efficient manner possible. Winning would help accomplish that more than anything.

Good post. I'm not one of the "peaches and cream" guys. I think social media and the internet age lures us into taking special note of the extremes, and ignoring the simple fact that most opinions are far and away much closer to the middle. Then "mob mentality" and confirmation bias seems to turn anecdote into "proof". Just look at society's political rhetoric for the hour-by-hour examples. Alas, that's talk for another thread.

It's been a huge learning curve for JH, that we can agree on, hopefully his (our) worst days are behind him.

As Browns fans we all must hope for the best.

I suppose if we had gone with Paton, we'd be getting guys like Shariff Floyd and Laquon Treadwell...?

Maybe we should bring back Phil Savage.

I just want to know how they (GM candidates) did evaluating offensive linemen. While definitely important, the rest is of secondary importance this draft cycle.

The fact that he used an almost 1st rounder on Corbett (amongst other things) makes me less upset with Dorsey not being here.

What Haslam just created by rewarding Depo with more power and control within the organization is a management disaster waiting to explode.

I'm sure the GM candidates see it...

Haslam wants to run as much of the organization as he can and everyone reports to him.

Depo is going try the Moneyball experiment again, but now with more authority over player personnel than he had 4 years ago.

Now, Haslam wants a GM even though Depod was already handed some control over player personnel and the draft. Also, we have Elliot Wolf, who is already the Browns assistant GM.

Last, Haslam hired a headcoach who should have a degree of control over his roster. If there is going to be any chance of this analytics scheme working, Stefanski must control of something!

If analytics is just a tool to be used to help our HC and GM identify talent, why does Depo have any control over "who" the HC and GM want on their roster?

Now add Haslam's enormous ego to the mix, knowing he has a history of pulling rank and drafting players he likes...that just adds another layer of dysfunction within the Browns management.

I would use Depodesta's analytic information "as another tool" to help our GM and HC select players...and that would be it. Depodesta has nothing in his football resume that would earn him any control over who the HC and GM want on the roster.

That is what should happen, but we all know Haslam is determined to drive a square peg in a round hole

This search does give me the feeling of the year we fired Chud after one season, then desperately searched out a replacement and ended up with Pettine. This time around, it's to fill the G.M. job.

Except this year .. we have two good assistants who can carry on if need be, which is why I think there is no real hurry atm.

I remember when Haslam and Banner tried to sign Chip Kelly...Kelly to the Eagles job after Haslam and Banner interviewed Kelly for 7 or 8 hours.

Unless the new GM doesn't want them around nor trust them.

Their "buddy (boy)" did run Berry off.

This might not be the case, but it could explain his hesitancy to take the job. Could be that Jimmy wants to keep Highsmith and Wolf, but Berry doesn't. Maybe Berry is okay with Wolf but not Highsmith.

Speculation on my part, but some pieces seem to fit.

I wonder if not being able to bring in his own guys is ultimately what pushed Paton away.

Edit- A shotgun wedding between a GM and his lieutenants rather than GM and HC wouldn't be entirely out of character for Haslam. *sigh* Hopefully we'll have a case of two steps forward, one step back and not one forward, two back. Expecting no steps back feels too optimistic.

Simply put, in 2016 and 2017, under a
analytics regime the Browns managed 1 win and 31 losses.


Wrong, just cause you say so does not make it so.

Analytics...the greatest Analytic guy is DePodesta. Actually this is the first season where he is taking Control of this team...so the Analytic Regime is actually commencing NOW.

The first two season DePodesta took a back seat and yes did some analytics and provided it as a tool for those involved to use. But it was not HIS REGIME as you state. I think DePodesta feels comfortable now to actually take control and make no mistake about it - this is HIS TEAM NOW and the First year of his Regime.

jmho

EO..spin it any way that makes you feel better about the Browns success under Depodesta's Moneyball scheme.

The 1-31 belongs to Haslam and Depodesta with a bit of Sashi thrown in.

Wasn't it Depodesta who ran the analytics on Carson Wentz and openly opined that Wentz wasn't a franchise caliber QB?

Hubris did not want Wentz. It was Goff or bust.

The plan, analytically, or otherwise, was to tear the team down and rebuild through the draft. Acquire as many draft picks as possible. Utilize those draft picks in year 1 and 2 along with FA to build the lines (OL and DL). Why draft a QB if your OL sucks (see T. Couch and D. Carr for examples)? They were accomplishing this - Tretter, Bitonio, Zeitler, Garrett, Ogunjobi, etc. Year 3 was QB year, but they never got to year 3.

Are you sure Wentz is a franchise quality QB ? I'm not so sure everyone else is .. Wentz is good, yes, but please define franchise quality ? Is Baker a "Franchise Quality QB", is Stafford.. How about Winston .. Tanneyhill ? Mariota ? Wentz pulled himself out of the playoff game this year, forcing McCown to play 3 quarter with a hamstring pulled away from the bone ? Wentz may have been right to pull himself, but he pulled himself, the doctors didn't. Looking back, does it seem like a move Cutler might have made ? So please .. come up with a definition of franchise QB everyone can believe in. Brady was a "Franchise QB", is he still ? Was Eli ever a franchise QB, or just a good one ? Rogers probably is one, still, and Mahomes most likely is as well, but who else ?

The Eagles were rebuilding too..they started by taking the QB that Depodesta determined was not a franchise caliber QB.

But the Eagles then built their team around Wentz they have been in the playoffs in 3 of Wentz 4 years.

I guess the Eagles didn't know how to use analytics or that should not have drafted Wentz.

It seems as though Philly won the Super bowl with Foles at QB, and has not been back since with Foles or Wentz playing.

Let's not forget that Wentz can't "win" a game to save his life. If the game is on the line, he's a flat out "no-show". I'm not saying the jury is in, he seems like he has all the tools in the belt. Time will tell with Wentz, certainly not a no-brainer.

Mac is just running around like Chicken Little, looking for any opportunity to type "DePodesta's Moneyball Scheme".

PS... I think Huey later revealed that he "wanted Wentz all along"... Or was it Jimmy G? Or Garoppolo? It's always hard to keep up with Huey's version of history.

I get part of it, Mac. But had we dropped Wentz into Berea, would we have had multiple playoffs as well? I couldn't expect that, that he could carry this. He was good enough to trigger the Iggles to success in that division. BM is not effectively there in light of last year IMO. But he is getting some pieces that could easily let that happen. Or so I say.

just to assuage my curiosity , pit, could you tell me who some of these folks are who think analytics are the “magic bullet” and that everything will be “peaches and cream” with the use of analytics. My guess is that will be a very short list. Most people agree with depo who said it is a tool to use to obtain an advantage , nothing more.

All you have to do is read the board. I do agree with you that it should be a tool. But you have at least three people we know of who will be reporting to Haslam. One of the three is Depo. That puts him on equal footing with the top people in the organization.

I'm not saying that won't work. What I'm saying is those wishing to downplay that fact wish to dismiss the obvious.

For the n-teenth time, quit using the phrase "Moneyball Scheme". "Moneyball" has nothing to do with what we're doing as a Football team. It is a specific baseball strategy based on analytics that was employed where one team is forced to play with a much smaller budget than much larger teams. By placing value on important statistical categories, they were able to bring in players for a fraction of the cost, which had the same impact as players that larger teams were paying out the nose for.

This has NOTHING to do with Football. There is a salary cap and a level playing field. There's is no need for this kind of approach, this isn't what Depo is doing, and "Moneyball" isn't some sort of blanket term for any analytics approach. You sound like a guy trying to use big words to sound like you know what you're talking about, but you're using the words all wrong. It's both neanimorphic and sesquipedalian.



And this is the other part of the equation that drives me up the wall. I swear, some people can't see the forest from the trees. The 1-31 was part of a FIVE year plan were the goal was to strip things down, amass assets, accept that we probably weren't going to be good for those first few years, then turn around and use those assets to build a solid foundation for the team going forward. Quit acting like that going back to analytics just means we'll approach every year like we did those first two year.



Look up the stats on Wentz lately. He's pretty much similar to Baker Mayfield. The team he was on was also good enough to march through the playoffs and win a Super Bowl without him.

But lets not forget the most important part of getting a QB: having a team around him to help him succeed. The best way to ruin a QB is to stuff him on a bad team and try starting him right away. We were in no shape to draft Wentz back then. He likely would of been pushed to be a starter and likely would have ended up no better than Kizer.

I feel like the goal was to build up the lines first, amass assets and high draft picks, assume that we'd lose some games while we're doing that, and then use those high picks to grab a QB and skill players on a team that had OL/DL's ready to go ... which is sort of what we did anyway.


I also find people dissecting quotes about previous draft picks a bit hysterical. Like what else do you expect a person employed by the team to say? "That Coleman pick was awful! I wanted Keanu Neal, but that bum of a Head Coach, Jackson wanted to go WR!". For the most part, everyone's going to echo the company line.

Yeah, "We got our guy" is dissecting things. We now live in a world where a direct quote straight from a persons mouth no longer holds any meaning. Sad.

You'll have to remind me of the last time any GM for any team said something like, "Well, we really wanted Tunsil, but he went a few picks before us, and we couldn't get any trades, so we just settled with Coleman". They ALL say "We got our guy".

Let's look at the playoff years under Wentz.

In 2019, Wentz briefly participated in his first playoff game after going 9-7 in a very weak division. Wentz threw 4 passes, completing 1 pass for 3 yards, before getting injured (again) and Josh McCown had to play the majority of the game. The Eagles lost to Seattle.

In 2018 Wentz compiled a 5-6 record before getting injured (again) and Nick Foles came and led the team to a 4-1 record. Nick Foles was 1-1 in the playoffs while Wentz watched from the sidelines.

In 2017 Wentz had his best season before injury ended his season after 13 games and Nick Foles led the team to the Super Bowl.

Further, drafting Wentz at a time when we tearing everything down would be a complete waste of a QB on a rookie deal. Not only that, but it sets up a QB to fail with no support around him.

As you point out, the Eagles had already built their team which made sense to draft a QB at that time.

Hat tip to DePo again! Or was it Sashi who drafted the Players? Or was it Berry?

Firstly he wasn't the GM. Supposedly, according to most he wasn't even involved in the process, yet was somehow in the draft room. Trying to claim he couldn't have come up with a more generic comment from someone everyone claims to be so smart is rather disingenuous at best. If you would like I can give you a few real fast.

He should have come up with a more generic comment? Why? So that fans won't hold him accountable if the player doesn't go to the HOF? He should pull out his crystal ball, predict the players future, calculate the fallout should the player not exceed expectations... and then craft his comments accordingly.

Cannot make this stuff up!

So let me get this straight. He was sitting in a room where a draft was occurring? Did he say anything? Was he just there to see how it worked? Was he eating a sandwich?

The idea that because a guy was sitting in a chair somewhere makes him in charge, or even involved with what goes on in said room, is a stretch of epic proportions.

If you don’t have first-hand knowledge of what went on in that room, then you have no knowledge of what went on in that room.

Well put, the vp of finance, the vp of marketing and the vp of gizmos all report to the president. But they all have different roles. These guys will too.

And these folks who have hyperactive imaginations with DePodesta picking the roster, approving game plans etc. need to take a couple of Valium. They are way over the top.

Go root for the Eagles if such a fanboy.

I'd like Depo to have all the power. Your meltdown would be epic reading.

Well Peen, I must admit, I do care more about the Browns than I care for Depodesta and his experimental Moneyball scheme.

The problem is, I've already seen the first act of Depodesta's Moneyball and it was ugly and left me with a lasting impression.

Now that the Browns have gone from 1 win in 2 yrs to 13 wins in two years...and thirteen wins in 2 yrs that's not good enough...

Now that the heavy lifting has been done for them, can the Moneyballers make the moves that get the Browns into the playoffs in 2020?

Face it...TEARING THE TEAM DOWN TO THE STUDS again...that scheme is not gonna fly and any attempt to do so would be recognized by the fans, the media and the players...it could be very ugly should Depodesta try for a 2nd act that is just like the first act.

With the team showing improvement over the last two seasons, can Depodesta help to build the team into the playoff contender without tearing it down?

The Browns regressed in Dorsey's second full season as GM (2019) and closed out the season with an embarrassing loss to the then 1-14 Bengals.

Sadly this is it in a nut shell - add he was advocating to keep a worse HC than Hue in place.

Bad? Yes. Worse than Hue? I think that is mostly recency bias.

He, unfortunately, definitely deserved to go, though.

Another football guy who thought he had football figured out and refused (or at least was unable) to learn and adapt.

As bad as some of Jimmy's choices have been results-wise, I hold out some hope he's at least learning things. Maybe he's finally stopped being swayed by old school football guys who the game has passed by.

I'm wondering if you have any idea what you're talking about. And if so, where are you getting your information?

We will NEVER see a coach as bad as Hue in probably any sport. I feel pretty confident in this statement.

No wonder Diam uses the menzas term for some of you.



I guess Depo is a liar and he was only eating a ham sandwich in the draft room. See, that's the thing. Nobody is making anything up. Some however claim Depo is a liar and we can't believe anything he says. It's pretty obvious who is making things up.

I'm not one who says Depo is doing all of those things. You addressed the wrong guy. But to try and claim that when the HC, the GM and Depo, your numbers guy, are the three who report to Haslam, yet they all don't have equal voices is the craziest thing I've ever heard.

Just like saying because Paton had so many GM interviews and pretend he turned them all down because he is being picky is crazy. Nobody knows if he was offered the GM job after any of those interviews. In order to be picky you have to turn down job offers. We don't know he was offered a job to turn down at any of those other stops.

What we do know is he pulled his name from the Browns job.

Making up things to make yourself feel better doesn't change direct quotes from people or the fact that making up how many jobs someone turned down make it so.

In my best Peen voice.....

"You're not acting like the fan boy who buys all the feel good BS we're trying to buy into. That means you're not a real fan like me!"

Isn't this what you do in your posts?




Is it really pretending if it's true?




It is.

A direct quote from Depo isn't "making something up".




Can you show anywhere that he's turned down other GM jobs? If so, how many? I'm not the one presenting unsubstantiated "feelings" as facts here.




It most certainly is. People claiming that Paton turned down other GM jobs with nothing to back it up. And people willing to claim Depo lied in order to say their theories are true.

Well, he's turned the Jets down not once, not twice, but thrice...

Link


He turned down the Dolphins.

Link


I mean is it not true because you don't want to believe it?
Link


I mean why do you think it's not true? The sources? It doesn't fit your agenda?

He at least interviewed here twice, that's a lot more than some other teams. Apparently he's not ready to become a GM in his mind.

With Haslem, never say never .......again .....

One big difference is he went through two interviews here. Apparently as much as he wants to be a GM and going through two interviews, he doesn't want to the the GM here.

He doesn't want to be the GM anywhere. He wants to stay in Minnesota.

Not at all. I know he is a real Browns fan. He has brought up the Eagles several times before. He keeps talking about tearing down again. Lord knows that if a single player leaves it will be the proof he needs that we are starting over.

So that's why he came here to interview not only once, but twice. You realize that doesn't make any sense, right?

Actually none of have a clue as to what their plans are moving forward but I get what you're saying.

That was my take on it, completely. Dude is just afraid to step out on his own. He's got it good and comfy where he's at and he's well sheltered.... he can just do his work and not take all of the heat when a team has a tough year or two.

Yeah, he just came here for two separate interviews because he doesn't want to be a GM in the NFL. Really?

I suspect that he came here because of his relationship with Stefanski, but never felt comfortable enough about working with Haslam and/or DePodesta, so he withdrew his name from consideration.

I'm not sure if it was Haslam, Depodesta, or just the structure under which things would be running. There could be a host of reasons he decided to pull his name out of the running. But for anyone to suggest he came here for not one, but two interviews because he wasn't seriously considering the job makes no sense. I have gone to interviews that I considered just a "feeling out process". But returning for a second interview always means you are strongly considering accepting the position. At that point you would have to find legitimate concerns not to take the position.

Yes, really.... just like the woman that gets engaged and has all the parties and showers and flashes her ring to everyone with all sorts of excitement; then never shows up to the church on her wedding day because of "cold feet".

Or, something I'm familiar with.... a group of people all decide to buy a business together and everything is going along great, all financing is taken care of, you have a business plan as well as a plan to transition ownership, cut costs, etc.... and then one critical partner backs out at the 11th -and-a-half hour .... because they were more excited about the THOUGHT and IDEA of doing something, but weren't ready to commit to the REALITY of actually doing it.

I'm not buying it. You're going on something that happens a very small fraction of the time to base your opinion on.

If it weren't Paton I would say that a candidate pulling out of contention for the GM job would be alarming. But it is Paton and he has done this (and things similar to this) before.

It's my opinion of what his actions indicate. Also, I'm not asking you to buy it, I don't care if you or anyone else does.... I'm simply explaining what I see.

Heck, at this point, it's his M.O.
He has a track record of it; of being the bird that doesn't want to leave the safety of his nest.

I'm just relying on probability.

well, you're going on what you believe you see as matching what you believe to be probability.

I'm going on what I believe I see in the track record of his actions and the wordings used in some of the things said along with the fact that he worked himself a new deal in Minny following this.

I think the wife and kids don't want him going anywhere.

So far the only evidence I've seen is that he refused to ever interview with the Jets and the only team he backed out of was the Dolphins. That sounds rather flimsy.

Yeah, he probably never talked to his family about that before he took the second interview.

Just face the fact, he didn't do well in his 2nd interview. He knew it and pulled out.

First, it didn't happen. Now you're considering it "flimsy."

Okay.

Whatever happened to, "My bad, I was wrong."?

You have a strange way of coming up with what you call facts.

I asked for evidence of it and you supplied it. And even when you did, one of the two teams you listed he didn't even interview for at all.

REGARDLESS...I EXPECT THE PLAYOFFS IN 2020...

...and nothing less, considering the work that had been done on the roster over the previous two years...

I expect you to use the term 'Moneyball' all 2020 long.

We'll see.

memp...explain yourself...what do you call Depodesta's next plan?

Call it whatever your heart desires...not even a bunch of Harvard educated stat boys could screw this up.

How about you explain what Moneyball is to the group and how Depo plans to utilize it for the Browns?

memp...if they get the Browns to the playoffs, I don't care what they call their plan...

He's looking for a gold glove shortstop, with an arm, who can hit with power and bat .285, for less than a million per year.

Combined with a strong +/- on the court!

Well that's great to hear, because as we know, top level execs would never mince words or let on that maybe we didn't get the guy that we were ultimately after, unless that was the case.

Agreed. But didn't we all figure was Andrew Berry was the guy all along? I'm guessing George Paton was able to sniff that out as well.

No one from the Browns would attempt to spin the story, would they?





"Essentially unanimous"...no wiggle room intended in that comment, is there?

Him being reported as the front-runner earlier on than Paton would support the theory they wanted him all along. I don't know if I totally buy it, though. I think Berry was their guy until they talked to Paton.

I haven't seen any information that would give me that impression. Why do you think that?

Based on how all the early reports were about Berry coming back, and then Paton and Paton's second interview. Then back to Berry once Paton stepped back.

Completely a gut feeling based on the above. That's what I think.

I knew it wouldn't be long for that gauntlet to be thrown.

I expect it two. I am not going to demand people be fired if it doesn't happen.

Freddie had to go. I am sorry Johnny Boy couldn't understand why Haslam wouldn't simply allow him to pick the next coach.

Maybe they liked both, and wanted to discuss it a bit longer. Paton said he needed to know, and they demurred. He pulled his name. Happens all the time in business.

New coaches,new systems,new players.
6-10 will be more like it.

Who knows? It doesn't really matter. I am totally happy with Berry. He is qualified.

I’m fine with him. Just pointing out that it could have been a much more mundane situation than people think.

Maybe.

Maybe the new coaches command more respect? Maybe a new system makes more sense to the players? We need some new players. We have a lot of holes in the roster. Maybe it goes 9-7 or 10-6.

but I wonder if you'd call it "They were right all along"?

I'm a little late checking in but I wanted to touch on your point about the post Corey Coleman pick made by DePo...

Even if DePo is towing the company line and making the statement because it's what everyone says about the players they picked, I would agree that if he's going to say it, he also has to take some ownership of that.

BUT I also think you have to be careful how much weight you put on a statement everyone makes about the guy they just drafted in light of the factthat DePo had been with the organization just under 5 months by that time.

Did we draft Coleman based off a system DePo implemented within that short time frame? We don't know.

Did DePo largely take an observatory role to see how the analytical system we already had in place perform? We don't know. ** again, we can't take the new guy making the unified, public statement every team makes about every player as direct evidence as to just how much that pick was at his direction**

Or was the Coleman pick a combination of what was in place and some preliminary changes or tweaks made by DePo? We don't know, but I think common sense would say probably.

In any event I think it reasonable to assume that the system in place today is not the same as what netted us Coleman.

Personally I think it's a much stronger argument to admit that Coleman checked the statistical boxes that made him a numbers pick, but his failure is an example that the system or concept isn't perfect by any stretch. AND such a cautionary tale could be used to press the numbers guys to explain a bit more about why they think what they are doing has legitimacy.

I'm not sure if Corey Coleman was a bad pick, or if we were just a terrible spot for him.

QB situation: RGIII and McCown were both injured in the first 2 weeks of his rookie season. The next year the QB room was Kizer, Hogan, and Kessler.

His WR room mentors were Josh Gordon and Kenny Britt.

Hue was his head coach.

Throw in a couple broken hands, and that's a recipe for... what we witnessed.

Man, makes me wonder what might have been if there hadn't been that earthquake during RGIII's workout. Or if he and McCown had simply stayed healthy.

I wonder how much Hue's belief in RGIII factored into passing on Wentz.

CoCo definitely has some responsibility for how things turned out. I can't help but think they may have turned out differently if he'd landed somewhere else, with a better support system.

As much as anything, I think that's where we've struggled. Not necessarily evaluating talent, but evaluating fits and the surrounding environment players will need to succeed. We also could do a better job developing "player leaders" within the team/position groups. Landry would have been nice for Coleman to have.

Excellent point.

... and evaluating talent. We sucked at that too.

That sounds pretty good if you refuse to factor that he then went to the Giants and laid an egg there too.

He had a stay in Buffalo, as well ... but they cut him prior to the season. That cost them a 7th rounder, IIRC.

One thing that cracks me up is how many say, "He was a projected first rounder". My question is, "Projected by who"?

A lot of people listen to these supposed draft gurus on TV and the internet as if their word really means something. And often they get the very obvious talent right in regards to the draft. Yet every year we see players they have projected in the first round fall.

The reality is there are only 32 NFL GM's that have the final say about which players are actually projected first rounders. Unless of course your team is ran under the Kumbaya system where everyone makes a unified pick. You know where three different people report to the owner and nobody really knows who the hell the boss is or who actually has final say.

Coleman was a bust just like Braby Edwards was a bust, just like Couch was a bust....and that is just our team. All teams have them.

The problem we have is we have never had a group together long enough to allow them to recover from a blown pick. I am not just talking about under Haslam.

I guess that has a lot do do with my point here. Every GM..... I'm kind of hesitant to use that term anymore because we don't even know who the hell makes the final call around here anymore.... but let's just say GM, has hits and misses.

Where the problem comes in is when people try and dismiss and deny someone as having been a part of making said mistake. That's what keeps happening with Depo and the Coleman pick. Even after a direct quote from Depo saying he was a part of and in agreement with the pick. The fact he made a mistake isn't a problem. Hell they all make mistakes. The only problem is what seem to be almost his worshipers won't man up and admit it. It's hilarious!

You always get excuses for either the hires or their history and responsibility for said history.

Like the hiring of Berry. Paton was given the second interview and decided to pull out of the process. The Browns didn't select Berry out of the two choices. He was the choice left to them after Paton pulled out.

Now you have some Yahoo guy on Twitter who has no ties to the team claiming to have some "inside scoop". Yeah, every local and national reporter didn't know a thing about it and this guy has the scoop.

People will overlook direct quotes from people and an obvious chain of events to try and twist the narrative into what they want it to be.

I have been pretty lockstep with you since the firings/hirings and how I hate this setup and structure they have created. you know that. I have been probably the strongest voice against that setup since we have gone back to it.

But, to play devils advocate - for every bust the numbers guy had (Coleman for instance) we have had double those amounts of bust by football guys.

How many great picks did Holmgren make?
How many great picks did banner/Lombardi make
Scheiner?

Phil was probably the only football guy that we had that had decent drafts.

All have failed here, football guys and number guys so far.

I'm on board with Berry being our first choice. I believe unequivocally that Stefanski and Berry were the top choices of Depodesta. Following the interviews of Paton it was said everyone in the building preferred Berry to Paton.

The problem, as I explained, is people tend not to own up to that. And no, the numbers guys haven't been any better. If they had been, they would have been running things before now.

Let me pose a common sense question here. If Depo and the numbers guys were so good, why, after Sashi was fired, did Haslam hire a football guy to run the team rather than numbers guys who you say had been better at it? If the numbers guys were doing so great, Dorsey would never have been hired. We're just going back to it because that's the only remaining choice at this juncture. Whether it will be better or not is anyone's guess.

We are going down the same path we did before. Three guys all reporting to Haslam. That failed the last time it was tried. It doesn't mean it will fail. Just that there is a track record. We have a GM who has never been a GM before. We have a HC who has never been a HC before.

None of this means it won't work. What it does mean is that this is an experiment of people moving up in roles they've never filled before.

I think many of us hoped that with a first time HC you would surround him with an experienced staff and FO to give him a strong support system.

But many posters seem to change like the direction of the wind. Wade Phillips was a hire many expected and supported for that exact experience factor I suggested. Until it didn't happen.

First they liked the idea of the Berry hire. A 32 year old running a franchise. Then suddenly everything changed and all were on board with the Paton hire. Until suddenly he pulled himself out of contention. With that announcement, he suddenly turned into a guy who used us as leverage to get more money in Minnesota, a guy afraid to make the leap and not who we wanted anyway.

You can't make this crap up. It seems many posters on this board are like the weather in Ohio. If the facts don't appear to be peaches and cream, just stick around for 10 minutes and the narrative will change to make it appear so.

Yeah, it was said on Twitter by someone who has no known ties to the Browns. Every Browns beat reporter and and the national media didn't have a clue. But when the narrative follows what you want to believe.....

I felt Heckert did a decent job.

Andrew Berry is a football guy. He is also a data guy.

"The one that will bring balance to the Force"

I'm not into Harry Potter but I think I get this reference.

Every coaching change brings new coaches and a new system. I don't anticipate a tremendous amount of turnover in the players.

I'm tired of this notion that it takes YEARS to see improvement in your record with a new coach.. it's BS. New coaches take over teams with mediocre to poor records all the time in the NFL and significantly increase the win total.

If we don't have that expectation, I would have suggested we just keep Freddie.

SF 2018 - 4-12 - 2019 - 13-3 Super Bowl

MKC has ties to the Browns I would say.


I mean, Depodesta was here last year (as was Berry) when we had Stefanski as a finalist with Freddie for HC. Depodesta was also here when we hired Berry the first time and apparently worked fine together.

Why is it unreasonable to believe that Stefanski and Berry were our first choices, unless of course the narrative doesn't follow what you want to believe... hmmm...

How about the Rams, 4-12 with Jeff Fisher/interim HC... following year hire the young Sean McVay, go 11-5, make the playoffs and the super bowl the season after that...

SF-2018 2 QB's injured hence the poor record.
Plus no coaching changes from 18 to 19.Find another example.
I say again,new coaches,new schemes,new players = 6-10

Good coaches are the ones that can take what they have and make it work. The bad ones are the ones that need to implement a system they are familiar with and then go out and replace the current roster with guys that can run what they want to run.

Use the Force Luke

Is Luke one of Harry's friends?

His BFF.

That is very true.
So tell me again why we are going to a WCO zone blocking scheme?

Because our offensive line was not great last year and we are probably only to have 2/5 of the same starters and the zone blocking scheme probably fits our personnel better.

Did he lay an egg or blow out an ACL?

He keeps getting chances because he had talent.

His QBs in Buffalo weren't any better than the ones he had here.

Doctson was my guy that draft instead of Coleman. They both had talent, though. Coleman's was less refined, but he had crazy production anyways in college.

Unfortunately, our coaches/talent refiners left something to be desired. Or, they weren't the right fit with CoCo at least. Old school coaches and new age players don't always mix. The NFL as a whole struggles with them at times.

No.
Excl said good coaches adapt their scheme to fit personnel.
Since KS has every intention to run his scheme,regardless of personnel,that tells me he doesn't think KS is a good coach.
We are right back at zero again.Get players to fit the new scheme,jettison the players that are here.
Any one that thinks we are magically going to be this great running team,needs to rethink.Transitioning to a zone scheme takes time,alot of time.

It's unreasonable to claim that as anything other than conjecture. And now we have two thirds of the group that helped assemble the talent that led us to 1-31. If that was "the plan"....

Well it is Haslam so maybe you're right.

Everyone is assuming we'll run "Stefanski's" scheme. We have no idea what it looks like or will actually entail. I'm not sure that Stefanski knows yet. He's "working through everything" still. Callahan will probably have input on the blocking. He's done several different blocking schemes over his career.

We're looking at a couple new OTs regardless of scheme. It'd be "new" to them regardless.

I hear you, and I agree on many points.

I also think its funny how we as fans are twisting everything as its positive. I swear its like the team can do no wrong by some.

Pre hire:

"we need a HC with EXPERIENCE! We need someone that can lead this team and kick these kids with attitudes in the butt"

Post Hire:

"Man, what a great hire to get the guy who has only been a OC for a year and half. We are finally ahead of the trend getting one of the great young Ocs, we didn't really want the guy with 6 rings and that the players felt was the best choice."

yeah but Stefanski only interviewed with the Browns, and didn't really have interest from many else - I wonder why that is?

"well, hes smart"


Pre Hire:

"Now that we got Stefanksi, lets get a GM that can build and mold him a team and work with him that has experience in running a team. Paton is the best hire we can make for this franchise!"

Paton pulls out of the job, and all you hear is "well, he wasn't the guy we REALLY wanted to hire anyway, it was Berry all along. We need someone like Berry that speaks Stefanski's language".

Cool. We have a historically poorly run franchise being led by a green 32 year old GM, with little experience - who is working with a Rookie HC with little experience that are in charge of setting up a culture for 25 year old prima donnas that need discipline and leadership as the 1 thing THEY THEMSELVES pointed out needing.

I couldn't tell you if it was conjecture. Her information has been pretty spot on the past month. I'm trusting it.

J/C

I am curious, for those saying that Berry was the guy alllll along, and we didn't really want Paton - why did it take so long to hire him?

Why wait what 27 days to hire the GM? Why not just hire him when we hired Stefanski? I mean, he WAS THE GUY right?

How would we know if we wanted Paton without the interviews? I think Berry led the pack all along, doesn't mean you don't do your due diligence though, right?

Let the process play out and make an informed decision. Don't rush to judgment.

Trust the process!

Which is worrisome to me.

We hired the guy for what he was doing in MInn, why would we want him to change what he was doing now that hes here.

Seems EXACLTY like what happened with Freddie. We hired based on what he was doing the year before, gets the job and then changes EVERYTHING

Interesting article on SI...

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-mav...gm-andrew-berry

Misconceptions About New Browns General Manager Andrew Berry

Pete Smith
7 hours ago

When the prospect of hiring Andrew Berry to be the general manager of the Cleveland Browns was introduced, it immediately renewed old arguments about the use of analytics and how the Browns employed them when Sashi Brown was the Executive Vice President of the team. The resulting rift which pit people who wanted to embrace data against those who wanted so-called "football guys" to make the decisions was the same one that was created in Berea when team owner Jimmy Haslam insisted on hiring Hue Jackson to be the head coach.

Now that Berry has taken the job to be the team's general manager, any number of misconceptions about his ability to judge talent or manage a team have come up due to the teams that went 1-31 in 2016 and 2017 as well as decisions in free agency and the NFL Draft are concerned.

When Sashi Brown hired Berry from the Indianapolis Colts, Berry had been involved in scouting for seven seasons. Brown was, after all, a lawyer and he needed someone to do the heavy lifting when it came to talent evaluation. Along the way, Berry was exposed to some of the creative ideas Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta and Brown were utilizing to manage the salary cap and create additional assets in the draft with trades. After three years in Cleveland, two with Brown and one with John Dorsey, Berry took an opportunity to work with the Philadelphia Eagles under their general manager, Howie Roseman, giving him more exposure to the business side of the organization.

Just 32 years old, Berry has been directly involved in scouting for seven of them, then four between the Browns and Eagles in the scouting process as well as being exposed to more of the business side including contract negotiations and salary cap management. He's also coming at this with an economics degree from Harvard, trained to think and approach things from a different perspective as well as a master's in computer science, which may not have a specific use in this role, but is impressive nonetheless. Berry is really smart. That's a good thing. That's in addition to playing four years a a corner for the Crimson and getting a look as an undrafted free agent from the Washington Redskins.

Despite how much worked out in the strangest of ways by going 1-31, enabling the Browns to select their franchise quarterback instead of having to trade picks to move up to get them, which was their plan all along and why they stockpiled so many, so much of what led to 1-31 wasn't because of analytics and their use. It was caused by a terrible marriage forced onto them by ownership and the battle that waged on for those two seasons that carried over into the past two seasons.

When the Browns hired Hue Jackson, they hired a paranoid, insecure head coach who thought he had all the answers and fought them every step of the way in what they were trying to accomplish, believing that would help his standing within the organization. That led to the trades down the draft order that so many assume is just how analytics work, but also forced them to compromise on so many picks, so Hue could feel like a big man.

So while many people assume every decision the team made during that time was rooted in analytics and therefore analytics failed, that couldn't be further from the truth. Instead, the Browns ended up with this mutant organization with parts based in data, parts rooted in stubborn, outdated thinking and arrogance with a good amount of scar tissue as a result of the clashing of those two thought processes.

From the 2016 NFL Draft, Corey Coleman, Emmanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, Cody Kessler Joe Schobert, Ricardo Louis, Derrick Kindred, Seth DeValve, Rashard Higgins, Jordan Payton and Trey Caldwell were all well rooted in data.

Coleman had immense talent, but the Browns failed to vet him well enough as a person, which is what caused him to fail. Ogbah has had injuries derail some impressive seasons between 2017 with the Browns and 2019 as a member of the Kansas City Chiefs. Nassib is a rotational piece on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers that would've been far better than what the Browns were left with this past season. Kessler was overdrafted by about three rounds, but still continues to find spots on rosters as a backup quarterback.

Joe Schobert has made a Pro Bowl and as he heads to free agency, was one of the most important pieces on the team's defense the last few years. Louis was a shot that didn't work in part because he never developed consistency as well as horrific injuries, including his neck and an ACL. Higgins had a big impact in 2018, but for reasons that still aren't exactly clear, disappeared in 2019 after an injury, seemingly finding himself in the dog house of Freddie Kitchens.

Payton had a tremendous profile and simply didn't work. Caldwell was drafted to a team with a ton of corners and couldn't do enough to earn a spot among them. Kindred is still floating around the league and DeValve flashed big time talent, but couldn't stay healthy. He's now a member of the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Shon Coleman, Spencer Drango and Scooby Wright were not backed by data. Coleman turned 25 in his rookie year and had no athletic data due to a MCL injury.Age is important in projecting outcomes from the NFL Draft. Oddly enough, he was the swing tackle for the San Francisco 49ers before a knee injury before the season started took him out for the year. Spencer Drango's athleticism was abysmal. Even his build was peculiar. Wright's production was outstanding, but he couldn't move and couldn't contribute on special teams as a result, so he had to start or he was dead weight. Wright proved to be dead weight.

In addition to the players they selected, this draft also netted the Browns additional draft assets for the future. 2017 was subjected to more compromise than 2016, which proved incredibly frustrating and hurt them in the draft process.

The 2017 NFL Draft started with Myles Garrett, who is one of the best defensive players in the league. His data was ridiculous. After trading down from 12th pick when they didn't get Patrick Mahomes and Hue didn't want Deshaun Watson, preferring Malik Hooker, the Browns added a first round pick for 2018 and then picked Jabrill Peppers.

Peppers had a solid draft profile from a data perspective, but Gregg Williams pounded the table for him. After struggling for the first half of his rookie year, he started getting better despite playing at free safety, which is completely different from anything he'd ever done. He played very well in his second season at strong safety and was part of the deal to acquire Odell Beckham from the New York Giants.

The Browns traded up, moving in front of the Pittsburgh Steelers to get David Njoku, who is another player that really did well with data, particularly because he was so young. Njoku had a good second year and his third season was derailed by an injury. Still, he only turns 24 years old this coming season and he can be a very productive player.

DeShone Kizer represents the official divorce of Hue Jackson from the analytics side of the organization. Not only was Kizer's data profile abominable and his chances of being successful almost zero, Jackson chose to ignore the rest of the front office, doing his own scouting on Kizer, believing himself to be a quarterback whisperer.

Even when people working with Kizer in his draft prep tried to call Jackson to give them some insight, Jackson refused to speak with them. That continued when Jackson ignored the front office's desire as well as his own quarterback coach, who Jackson would later fire, to let Kizer sit and develop. That arrogance killed whatever chance, however small, Kizer had to succeed in the NFL and why Jackson shouldn't be allowed anywhere near kids in a coaching capacity.

Larry Ogunjobi was another dynamo when it came to data, putting together an excellent profile. His rookie year has been his best to this point, but there's still a ton of ability with him and he can be a good player. He makes his share of splash plays, but he needs to be more consistent, particularly against the run.

Howard Wilson's draft profile with data was fine, but not for what the Browns intended him to do. He was built to be a nickel corner and they were hoping he could play the boundary. Sadly for Wilson, he never got to put on a Browns uniform in even a preseason game as injuries to his knees killed his career before it started.

Rod Johnson was awful when it came to data and his tape was even worse. Everything about this pick had disaster written all over it. Caleb Brantley was a similar deal in that he didn't produce, wasn't athletic with the added bonus of being lazy.

Their best pick from day three of that draft was Zane Gonzalez, who made the Pro Bowl this year as a member of the Arizona Cardinals. Matthew Dayes had great production, but his athleticism wasn't great. Still, for where they picked him, he was a solid selection and was okay in his time as a Brown.

Out of the 24 selections made in two drafts, at least six of them or 25 percent completely ignored any concept of analytics or data. And of those six, exactly none of them panned out for the Browns, so they were effectively wasted in the name of compromise. Shon Coleman has a chance to improve that record to one.

Of the 18 selections rooted in data, three of them have made the Pro Bowl (Garrett, Schobert, Gonzalez), one was a massive bust (Corey Coleman), three are contributing for other teams (Nassib, Ogbah, Peppers), three are or have contributed on the Browns roster (Njoku, Ogunjobi, Higgins) and the remaining eight are either at the bottom of a roster, a free agent or out of the league entirely (Kessler, Kindred, Louis, Payton, DeValve, Caldwell, Wilson, Dayes).

In all, the Browns whiffed on nine of the 18 picks they made rooted in data while selecting nine players that contributed to the Browns or another team in the 2019 season. For all of the hand wringing over how badly analytics performed, the Browns were able to pick nine contributors out of 18 picks with three Pro Bowlers. Had they not been forced to throw away picks to pay the Hue tax, the Browns would've had another second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh round pick; effectively an extra draft.

Keep in mind, while they were hamstrung by Jackson, they were still able to acquire the first, two extra seconds, a third, and fourth round picks that would be utilized by Dorsey, mostly poorly, in 2018.

This is why alignment is so critical. With Berry and Stefanski seemingly operating in tandem, that is one of the areas that should be vastly improved. They both believe in embracing data, understanding that knowledge is power, so even if they won't be perfect in the upcoming NFL Draft, they should at least be able to use 100 percent of their picks as opposed to 75 on players with good data profiles, reducing their chances of blowing picks. If they can carry over that 50 percent hit rate on contributors as well as a 16.6 percent rate of hitting a Pro Bowl player or improve upon them, the Browns will be in good shape going forward, potentially able to make up some of the ground lost under Dorsey's leadership.

One of the potential benefits as well as the risks with Berry and Stefanski is the fact they are young. It could result in some missteps, but it also means they aren't fully formed and still have room to grow, improving in their roles. That has the potential to give the Browns one of the better football organizations in the league as well as putting them on the cutting edge, which they briefly flirted with in making the Brock Osweiler trade.

Nothing guarantees this setup will work, but just eliminating the rift and working as part of an organization that is all headed in the same direction provides more opportunities to make smart decisions, which is already a significant improvement. Energy that isn't spent fighting another camp can instead be spent looking for additional avenues for the team to get better. Iron sharpens iron, so to speak. Morale should be higher within the building as well, which along with a unified message, would hopefully proliferate into the locker room, improving the energy around the organization as a whole.

The Browns are finally doing what almost every other organization in the NFL is already doing and the fact it took this long is what should frustrate people the most. People may read this and still hate the hire of Andrew Berry, but they should at least acknowledge that the organization that was put together for 2016 and 2017 was not an accurate representation of an organization thoroughly invested in analytics.

I just saw an episode of Parks and Recreation with a similar quote:

Ron Swanson: "Is Star Wars the one with the little wizard boy?"

Hue was a crappy coach but who comes up with this kind of BS?

Maybe i missed it, but there isn't a single source listed in this article, sounds like this all this writers OPINION of what happened to me. Its also a slanted opinion, and you can tell by how he describes the "football guys":



Why add the "stubborn, outdated thinking and arrogance" part? Hes obviously showing a slanted view - NEITHER way of thinking worked - yet that way was the "stubborn outdated way" and the data was the other way.

So, the browns not vetting him failed? Not the data that chose him? That makes 0 sense whatsoever. Sounds like an excuse for an immensely bad pick. what you saying is that DATA cannot quantify the will and drive of a person, or the desire to win.....which is exactly why you shouldn't be picking a guy with the majority of your decision relying on data.

Data is information, it is a tool to a means. Its not supposed to be used as the end all be all quantifier. It simply just cannot take into effect the HUMAN element.

I also find it funny they use Myles as a data pick - Myles was a FOOTBALL guy pick, data pick, and pizza delivery boy pick lol.

Its funny though he paints every DECENT pick as a data pick and all the bad picks as the "stubborn outdated picks" Sorry bub, it don't work that way. Its not like Jimmy said, Hey Paul you get this pick, hue you get this pick, paul this pick is yours and Hue this is yours". lol. GOH with that.

And I truly hate to have to stick up for Hue, but this is just plain false:

It was WIDELY reported that that Hue CALLED Watson to tell him we were picking him, and then the Data guys traded the down. Name me ONE HC that wouldn't want a QB picked there in our situation? I despise Hue Jackson as a HC, but we cant rewrite history - this is a lie. He freaking wanted to trade 2 1st for AJ McCarron he wanted a QB so badly and this schmuck is going to write that he wanted to pass on all the QBs? No, that was the data dept.

I think this has been addressed and one reason Stefanski was hired in part because he's not one to force his offense, his scheme, or what not on the team. He fits the players to what they do best.

Oh man. It doesn't fit your narrative, does it? Must be false, eh?

Nice use of bold. Good post.

Not really not a single other team waited to hire their guys once they interviewed them. The steelers hired Tomlin basically on the spot once they interviewed him. How many times did the pats interview BB? Due diligence is a nice way of saying - its your job until we find someone better, because we still want to look.

If you are 100% sure the guy in front of you is the guy to lead your Billion Dollar franchise, you don't let him walk out the room to chance it. JMO

Fair enough - but i would argue that you get a guy willing to "ADJUST" his scheme, not complete change it. My biggest concern with Stefanski was he doesn't have scheme as he ran Kubiaks plan. I still have that worry today. I maybe worrying for no reason and it will all work out, i admit - but its a valid worry given our history of square pegs and round holes.

Well, you're never 100% sure.

Imagine the blow back if the Browns only interviewed Stephanski. Or only Berry. This place would burn to the ground lol.

With that said, it's hard to apply a double standard (not saying you are doing that) when both sides of the coin don't fit the bill.

On one hand, many state that DePo is drunk with power. On the other, he is the one that set-up extensive interviews for both jobs. If the former is true - why wouldn't he just hire "his guys", Stephanski and Berry, on the spot?

The writer also conviently left out how we passed on Wentz as well - as that was Depo who said he was not worth the pick. I mean come on! If you going to write the story, write the full story. Don't pick and chose the good points.

I actually don't think the Depo/Sashi draft was as bad as most of the anti sashi guys do around here, other than CC disaster, i liked the draft of Ogbah, Joe S, Nassib, etc - esp considering where we drafted them. I thought it was great value, and has proved to be with their play compared to where they were drafted. But you don't get the GLOSS over the historically bad picks/decisions, which this "author" did more than once.

LMAO.

I figured that piece would get a rise out of a few!

That's a good point.

However, I would state that he COULDNT do that, as it would negate his position of even being here. I think Depo had his guy (stefanski) all along, and was going to push him no matter who interviewed, but if he just put his foot down and said we are hiring Kevin (not saying he even has that power to do that - hypothetically of course) it would complete undermine the reason he is here to setup processes. Which is why i question it to begin with.

Let me ask you this - If Bill quit NE after last year and said " I want to come home to Cleveland" but i want an answer today - do you think we do our "due diligence" and wait to interview Stefanski until he was out of the playoffs?

I despised Hue man. Even got yelled at for the amount of post i made against him, but come on. This article was trash.

Just curious, why would you think it's trash?

It doesn't have to be but to claim it's true is just as much of a reach.

What facts do you have to support it isn't? The wording strongly suggests pure conject5ure.

re: Berry and the return of #analytics, I will say one thing (to be fair)

In hindsight, the analytics setup we had before was a kind of unholy marriage. You had DePo and Sashi, who were way on the analytics side (yes, DePo played football, but he came from the baseball world for pete's sake). And then you had Hue, who was way over on the football side. In hindsight, whether it be unwillingness or inability, nobody really seemed to bridge the divide.


This time around, however, each person embodies more of a healthy mix. DePo is still DePo, but it's been reported he'll remain out of the day-to-day. Berry and KS are "football guys" that are also "analytics guys" (or maybe the other way around). Point it, I don't think it'll be the same oil-and-vinegar effect as the last nerd FO, and I think we'll be better for it (hard to be worse).

I hope this somehow translates to better drafts and off-seasons than last time. I really wasn't a fan.

I already listed several reasons but...

He is literally making up events, on top of neglecting information or suppressing information that doesn't fit with his narrative.

Its biased based on the language he uses to describe the processes as well, so right off the bat I am skeptical.

He states that certain pics in the two years were "picks void any data" and the rest were data picks. Ok, how do you come to that conclusion? What evidence says the bad pics were not data picks? he doesn't give any. he just expects us to believe him. So we are to believe that the data department has specific pics and those wre the picks that turned out as decent players while the picks that did not turn out well were football minded picks? Lol.

Here:



Ok,. How so? Where is the evidence that this is true? There is none. How does he know these were compromised picks and not just the data picks? Lol

Conversely:


How does he know these were the data picks? Based on what?

I find it hilarious how this article is written.

There is literally nothing factual to base any of the examples this writer uses, let alone we have factual reports and statements from people during the draft that were present at the time disputing what he said about Watson. he said He also conveniently leaves out the fact they passed on Wentz.

Its absolutely trash, and my opinion on that has nothing to do with the fact its bashing the "football guys" over the "data guys", its based on the articles lack of sourcing and information to back any of the claims made.

Please don't read that article. It's a bunch of unsubstantiated rumors written as fact under the banner of Sports Illustrated.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

I read that article earlier today and was hoping it would not make its way to this site (even though I knew it would).

It is a garbage article.

That is my expectation as well...

JUST WIN...

What people are you talking about.


First, I, me, would never draft a receiver at the top of the draft.

I would almost always make it a different position. They almost always seems to be crybaby problem makers.

As for Coleman, I didn't like the pick as referenced above, but he was the #1 or #2 rated receiver in the draft. What we did was in line with all the "football" experts.

Face it, sometimes it just doesn't work out. Give me examples of a GM saying he blew that pick. They don't do that. They move on. It's time for you to move on....Corey Coleman...really?

I don't get into the data and watching players prior to draft picks, so that I can not speak of...

Hue with the power to determine the quarterback room has been a heated debate here. There's an article in the athletic that's been linked here before about Hue being in charge of the quarterbacks, which is one of the reasons he came to Cleveland.

I'm not surprised the people who choose not to believe that would think the article is garbage.

What factual reports?

It's been said numerous times Hue wanted Hooker at 12.

We also never passed on Mahomes like Hue once claimed. Hue wanted Garrett at 1. Mahomes was drafted at 10 before our 12th pick.

Im not sure what these "factual reports" are claiming...

Hue wanted every player that ended up looking good, after the fact.

Unfortunately, he had to help pick one on draft day and decided not to tie his cart to a QB by drafting one early after his top choice was gone. He wanted to save that trump card (or excuse) for later.

It could be that the coaching staff feels the current roster is best suited for that type of offense. Considering we have one of the best running-backs in the league, that might not be such a bad thing. "Changing the offense" isn't necessarily a sign of bad coaching. It's when they change the offense or defense, and then have to replace everyone on the roster to get guys that can run it, that's a problem.

Considering that we ran air-raid last year, and it failed miserably, it's probably a good idea to change the offense.

I think we can all agree, we don't want a return to Moneyball, tearing the franchise down to the studs with 2, 3 or 4 wins in 2020.

As bad as Freddie was, his team did manage to win 6 games in 2019 and should have won more. Much of the work is done and this team is closer to getting in the playoffs than it is to another 0-16 season.

Just 4 more wins added to Freddie's horrible 6 wins and this team should be in the playoff hunt...just get us to the big dance.

spin...blah, blah, blah
moneyball blah, blah, blah

What is going on with this country when the simple truth is made light of.

Again just cause you say so don't make it so.