Didn't see that coming. Daniel Jones' turn...

I thought he may try to sign with Jax, Indy, Chicago, or a team that needs a QB ... but clearly not in the plans. Well done Eli

Yeah, two SBs and a long, very good career. Best Brady twice in the big game.

Next stop, Canton. Good job Eli!!!

Imagine having a family and two of your sons win a Super Bowl MVP and are elected into the Hall of Fame.


Archie must feel incredible proud.

If I were the dad, I'd be over the moon proud of them as ball players, but more so because they both seemed to have grown up as GOOD MEN.

Good job Eli,,, All the best

This happens right after there were rumors about the Giants bringing Kitchens to the staff.

All of the Mannings have set high standards.

Well done.

Just think of the odds of having two sons win Super Bowl MVP awards. And then both end up in the HOF.

You would have better odds of winning a jackpot lottery.

And more money in the family, too.

Not to mention a grandson who is being recruited by colleges (Cooper's son).

Eli shouldn't make the Hall of Fame. He might make it. He shouldn't.

Agree ...

Eli’s overrated ... he was however a great big game QB unlike his bro ...

He's always been a hot and cold QB. Streaky.

Most likely he will get in.

I don't get a vote.

If I did I would look hard at everything. It is debatable.


I don't really see him as HOF. But he has two Super Bowl MVP's. 60.3 % completion rate not great. 84.1 passer rating not great.

Long career lots of yards and td's. He was no Payton but then again how many were?

He is not automatic but in the end I think he gets in.

When comparing Eli to other quarterbacks in NFL history he is above-average. When comparing Eli to his contemporaries he is average at best. Eli Manning got hot two times and the exact right time. He won two Super Bowls because of it. He is not a Hall of Famer (even though he might make it).

MOST of the others in the HOF ...

I think you under rate him a bit. I would say he was better than most of the other HOF QB's but yeah, he has lots of company in that top 20%

In before Phillip Rivers retires. I bet he makes the announcement in the days after the Superbowl.

Rumors are that Rivers ends up playing for the Bucs next year.

Could be. They just moved to Flordia. Both he and his wife are from Alabama and wanted to get closer to family.

That or maybe he rides out with one of the Florida teams. Miami is probably drafting a QB.. Maybe it would be wise to let the kid sit behind a guy like Rivers for a year or two.

Maybe Tampa moves on from Winston and want Rivers as a bridge?

Arians likes to stretch the field ... not Phils strong suit ... but who knows Arians has a very good O mind and I’m sure he can adjust ...

Arians can say what he wants but I don’t see him sticking with the turnover machine Winston is ...

I have no idea where Rivers will end up, but the Tampa scenario seems the most likely of the choices.

Wow, had no idea he just moved. I used to live in the same suburb as he did. This was a guy that had a special car built so that he could get chauffeured daily to LA to practice with the Chargers without having to uproot his family or live in an apartment away from them during the season. If he just moved to the Florida Panhandle, it would seem to point towards retirement in my estimation.

He said he wants to keep playing.

If he keeps playing I think it is more likely he is in Jaxonville than Tampa Bay.

J/c

It brings up a good question that was being talked about today:

How would you rank the 3 QBs from the top of that draft class? Eli, Ben, Rivers

Me:
1. Ben
2. Rivers
3. Eli

Roethlisberger, Rivers








Manning

The ironic part of that ...

Eli’s dad rightfully so IMO said heck no to his kid going to SD ... so Eli ends up with the gnats ... Rivers ends up in SD ...

The bolts get the better QB by default but Eli gets 2 rings .... life is funny sometimes .. *L* ...

Regular Season:

1. Ben is by far the most accomplished statistically and win wise, but always had the stability of the organization. Rookie year went 15-1 with crazy good run game and top notch D.


2. Philip, I dunno. San Diego is a tough one. Really no idea how he hasn't won an SB. Either they're just cursed like Cleveland or Rivers just isn't clutch.

3. Eli also had a good D and good talent around him for most years, but not all. Also had to suffer through a couple years of Shurmur and other New York drama.

Playoffs:

1. Manning
2. Rapelsburger
3. Rivers

I'm probably the only person that will rank it like this, but the 2 years Ben won the Super Bowl they relied on Defense (remember Harrison's super long fumble return for TD vs Cardinals? or the Bus's last year when they became first team to win as a Wild Card?)

The only year Ben was asked to win the big one, he got out dueled by Rodgers.

And say what you want about all Manning's regular season struggles. Those 2 years he won the Super Bowl he played like a man on fire. He had the look in his eyes that just said he will not be beaten and then delivered.

Yes his team came through with nice defensive stops and of course "the helmet catch" but his will is what kept them going. Before "the helmet catch" he actually makes a crazy nice play in the pocket to escape pressure for ages before finally heaving it.

I've never seen Ben do this. When Ben gets fired up his team just hates him and calls him a brat. (same with Rivers come to think of it, his team always seems to turn on him)

If I had to take any of these 3 guys for just ONE Super Bowl game, I'm taking Manning as my starter.

(I'm talking in their primes, not last couple years broken arm Pat Shurmer coached Manning)

I dunno... dude had two playoff runs and four times bowed it of the playoffs first game....

Good career... will probably get into the hall but he was an average qb with two great playoff runs...

The 1980 Raiders beg to differ with you. I will never forget Red Right 88.

I stand corrected on that point. An announcer said it once and it stuck with me, but after a quick google you are correct the Raiders were the first and there were 3 others before the Steelers.

I wasn’t alive for it, but I’ve seen highlights of Red Right 88. Was it really that cold to not kick the FG?

It was that cold. Here is a discussion on youtube and it shows an earlier FG attempt. Look at the icicles on the mustaches. It was a frigid heartbreaker .. sighs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOa9gU_2GWg

Thanks I hadn’t seen that before

Maybe, but he's got two superbowl rings....

I would put him in right after Clay Matthews. FWIW.

And Dilfer has one.

While true a little honesty in their performances shows your post isn't really relative.

In the 2011 Super Bowl Eli went 30-40 for 296 yards and a TD.

In his 2017 he went 19-34 for 2 TD's and 1 int.

By contrast Dilfer went 12 of 25 for 153 yards one touchdown and one fumble.

I'm not trying to say that Eli lit it up or anything. But you can't really compare the two in their respective Super Bowl performances.

How about their other playoff performances or don’t they count? ...

I was strictly commenting on the Cap City post regarding Dilfer also having a SB ring.

How did this thread turn into a Trent Dilfer conversation?

My point, which admittedly was poorly made, is that having a SB ring or two does not make one a great QB. It happens a lot when someone says that Eli was overrated, or is not one of the all time greats, then someone else invariably mentions he has 2 SB rings.

Technically it does not. But Trent Dilfer is an exception to the rule. The vast majority of SB winners, had good QB play.

Also, I would argue that the Giants didn't rely soley on their Def to get there. Without Manning - they don't get there, or win.

The actual games to get there matter. Dilfer was along for the ride, Manning was 1st officer on the ship

4 degrees. Cockroft missed 2 FGs and had an XP blocked already.

Only 2nd down when they threw the infamous pass.

Are you sure of that? I seem to remember it 4th down, but I could be wrong.

There was maybe 40 seconds on the clock. Why would there even be questions about not kicking the field goal if it was 2nd down?

Definitely was not 4th down. Supposed to throw it in Lake Erie if Ozzie or whoever was not wide open. Sipe decided to throw it to the wide open CB, for whatever reason.

I do remember everything quite vividly except which down (thought it was 3rd, definitely not 4th).

From Wikipedia:

"Trailing 14-12 with less than a minute remaining in the game, the Browns had the ball on the Raiders 13-yard line and were in position for a potential game-winning field goal. Browns quarterback Brian Sipe conferred with head coach Sam Rutigliano, who called a pass play, "Red Slot Right, Halfback Stay, 88," and instructed Sipe to "throw it into Lake Erie" (throwing the ball out of play as it was only 2nd down), if the play was anything less than wide open.[2] On the ensuing play, Sipe chose to force a pass to tight end Ozzie Newsome. However, the pass was intercepted in the end zone by Raiders safety Mike Davis, who had cut in front of Newsome's square-in pass route, putting an end to the Browns' season. Oakland subsequently advanced to the AFC conference championship, where they defeated the San Diego Chargers and went on to win Super Bowl XV over the Philadelphia Eagles."

Sipe was supposed to throw it to a "blond in the mezzanine" if the play wasn't wide open.

He didn't.

You think so? Maybe. But it's not a sure thing. Yeah, he won two SB's but he never won a single playoff game outside of those two seasons. I think the voting will be a lot closer than some believe it will be.

And with Eli, they don't get there to have a chance at winning except for those two seasons. Outside of the SB seasons, he won exactly ZERO playoff games. I'm not saying he won't get it but it isn't a lock.

So U have no desire to discuss 0 - 4 ... can’t say as i blame U ...*L* ...

Bottom line is if his last name wasn’t Manning he wouldn’t even be considered with his career ...

And I’ll be happy when he gets in ... class act and i like it when good things happened to good people ...

I'm not sure what part of my explanation is escaping you. I replied to a point that another poster made. I've stated before that Eli is a streaky QB who just so happened to get hot at the right time to win those SB's. I've never considered him some great QB.

But he's no Trent Dilfer. His stats in his SB victories verses Trent's point that out. That's the only point I tried to make. If you have points you wish to make, have at it. If you think I'm going to debate on the side of Eli being a great QB, you would be wrong.

I certainly think he will make it into the HOF. But far more for having two rings and the last name of Manning than anything else.

I think he will get in.

Not sure what happened with his kids, but Archie was made for todays game. That guy could wheel as well as deal.

There is another Manning on the Horizon. Arch Manning. As a Freshman he is getting lot's of looks. He is Coopers son. Cooper was a really good QB but got injured and his career had to end. Archie says Cooper was more athletic than both Peyton and Eli....sounds like Coop and Grandson have Archies legs.

There will be another Manning in the league I am sure. Great legacy Archie. Well done, sir.

I mentioned in another thread, I think one about Eli, that his dad was a much better QB than he ever was and still isn't in the HOF do to being on a poor Saints team.

Man would I love to see him in his prime in today's NFL.

I've heard about the kid but haven't seen him play. Looking forward to it. I didn't know that about Cooper getting injured.

j/c...

I hope OT Conklin is high on our FA search ...

I’d say Arch deserves to be in more than Eli and I don’t believe he ever played in a playoff game ... *L* ... most underrated qb in the history of the game IMO ...

Pretty sure coop was a wr ... career ended after his freshman year in college i believe ... he was a better athlete than his brothers ...

I don’t believe vEli should be in but will be very happy for him and his family ... class acts, every last one of them ... i love it when good things happen to good people ...

Agreed

PFF: The 100 best available NFL free agents in 2020

By Sam Monson and Steve Palazzolo
Jan 21, 2020

The first opportunity for teams to improve their rosters in a meaningful way is just around the corner with the start of free agency. Everybody wants to build through the draft, as that route is cheaper and you can potentially see your new acquisition form a key piece of the roster puzzle for a longer period. That said, free agency can provide teams with an immediate and dramatic upgrade at crucial positions with proven NFL commodities—if they are willing to pay the asking price.

Many of the players topping the list of upcoming free agents will not get as far as the open market and will instead be slapped with the franchise tag, asked to either play out the 2020 season under that one-year guaranteed figure or work out a new deal under that tag. For the moment, though, this is the list of the best players slated to come available when free agency opens.

[Editor's note: The value of the quarterback position trumps all else, so instead of ranking them alongside all other available free agents, we have covered that position separately, here: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-free-agent-quarterback-class-2020 .]

100. Edge Carl Nassib

99. C Ted Karras

98. WR Phillip Dorsett

97. DI Danny Shelton

96. CB Kevin Johnson

95. CB Anthony Brown

94. S D.J. Swearinger

93. S Will Parks

92. CB Javien Elliott

91. LB Danny Trevathan

90. S Jayron Kearse

89. OT Daryl Williams

88. RB Jordan Howard

87. S Eric Murray

86. WR Devin Funchess

85. RB Kenyan Drake

84. WR Tajae Sharpe

83. CB Johnathan Joseph

82. DI Derek Wolfe

81. G Austin Blythe

80. CB Tramon Williams

79. DI Maliek Collins

78. S Tavon Wilson

77. CB Darqueze Dennard

76. DI Michael Brockers

75. C Connor McGovern

74. LB Josh Bynes

73. DI Andrew Billings

72. DI David Onyemata

71. DI Timmy Jernigan

70. Edge Matthew Judon

69. LB Nick Kwiatkoski

68. CB Ronald Darby

67. G Graham Glasgow

66. WR Randall Cobb

65. Edge Shaq Lawson

64. S Adrian Phillips

63. WR Danny Amendola

62. WR Nelson Agholor

61. CB Jimmy Smith

60. CB Eli Apple

59. S Rodney McLeod

58. Edge Dante Fowler Jr.

57. CB Mackensie Alexander

56. DI Gerald McCoy

55. DI Ndamukong Suh

54. OT Bryan Bulaga

53. S Vonn Bell

52. CB Bradley Roby

51. CB James Bradberry

50. Edge Bud Dupree

Dupree turned in a career year in 2019. After earning sub-62.0 PFF pass-rush grades in each of his first four seasons, the 26-year-old Kentucky product recorded career-highs in pressures (51), PFF pass-rush grade (76.3) and defensive stops (43). A team will have to buy into the fact that 2019 was a trend and not an outlier to feel comfortable paying him big money in the offseason.

49. S Damarious Randall

A player who has bounced around different positions since being drafted in the first round, Damarious Randall is now searching for his third team and a situation that can truly work for him. The Packers initially drafted him as a cornerback, and he struggled in that regard before ending up in Cleveland where he was the deep safety in a Gregg Williams' system before seeing a more well-rounded role in 2019 (202 snaps box safety, 88 slot cornerback, 407 free safety). Randall is definitely a better safety than he was a corner and seems best suited to that single-high role in a Cover-1/Cover-3 system.

48. LB Blake Martinez

After multiple years of strong grading at Stanford and now multiple seasons in the NFL, as well, Blake Martinez has shown all the qualities necessary to be a superstar linebacker and complete player — he's just never shown all the qualities at the same time. He has earned top-level grades in all facets of the game but hasn’t been able to put them all together in the same season, and this year, in particular, he looked like a liability at times against the run. Martinez doesn’t have the athleticism to make up for plays where he is late to read things developing, and he has missed double-digit tackles in each year of his career.

47. DI Jarran Reed

Suspension derailed Jarran Reed’s career, but before that, he was coming into 2019 on the back of a career year with the Seattle Seahawks. Reed is a solid player across the board, whose 11 sacks two years ago may have flattered his pass-rushing a little. Perhaps suited to more of a rotational role on defense, he isn’t bad at any one aspect of defensive line play, but he's not spectacular either, which ultimately may see him slip through the cracks of free agency until the later waves when the big names have been cleaned up.

46. CB Kendall Fuller

There’s no arguing that Kendall Fuller’s career has been heading south at a rapid rate of knots, but we are just two years removed from him looking like the best slot defender in the NFL. In 2017, Fuller earned an overall PFF grade of 90.6 thanks to four interceptions and eight pass breakups; he allowed a passer rating of just 56.7 and only 9.3 yards per catch. The Chiefs moved Fuller to safety where his play fell off a cliff, but a new team might try and resurrect his best play in the slot given that he is just 25 and should theoretically have his best football ahead of him.

45. Edge Robert Quinn

Robert Quinn's 2013 season, the one in which he racked up over 90 total pressures and earned an overall PFF grade of 93.6, is still one of the best edge-rushing seasons that PFF has ever seen. That year, Quinn was a phenomenon when it came to beating tackles around the corner, but frustratingly, he was never able to get near that level again. His career went sideways when he was forced into schemes that asked him to be a stand-up linebacker on the edge, but his 2019 season in Dallas saw him return to some of his better play as a defensive end. This season saw him post 57 total pressures, the best figure he has recorded since that 2013 season.

44. T D.J. Humphries

Humphries battled injuries early in his career, only flashing the ability that made him a 2015 first-rounder, but he is coming off his best effort as a pass blocker. He gave up only 30 pressures on 677 attempts in 2019, just two more pressures than he allowed in 2018 on 335 fewer opportunities. It was Humphries' first season grading below 72.0 in the run game, but he could be the classic “late bloomer” along the offensive line as he heads into his fifth NFL season.

43. S Karl Joseph

A player who has always earned consistently solid grades, Karl Joseph just hasn’t made enough splash plays in his time in the NFL to convince his own team to buy-in long-term or even keep his starting spot secure. Joseph has just four interceptions in four seasons with the Raiders and has forced just a single fumble, but he has hit double-digit defensive stops every season and shown the ability to be a solid force on defense. Joseph has talent, particularly in a coverage scheme that plays with split safeties, and he will likely be available for a bargain fee given how his Raiders tenure panned out.

42. LB Jamie Collins Sr.

Jamie Collins' last attempt at free agency was the ultimate case of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Multiple seasons of elite play in New England during his first stint with the franchise led the Browns to become besotted with him, but his time in Cleveland was little north of disastrous. However, his return to the Patriots saw him rediscover a stretch of elite play before cooling off and ending the season with a sequence of disappointing play. Collins may represent one of the largest potential variances of any free agent available, but he remains an athletic and intriguing player who could tempt teams into trying to take advantage of a playmaker and game-changer on defense.

41. DI Shelby Harris

A player who has consistently graded well since he came into the league, the only question teams will be asking about Shelby Harris is how good can he be and how big a role can he assume for a new team? Harris earned a PFF grade of 90.8 back in 2018, but he played just 391 snaps that year, and when the Broncos scaled up his workload as a reward, his play trailed off to an overall grade of just 76.8. Harris may ultimately be an elite-level role player or an average player with a bigger role for a new defense, but either way, he represents a valuable addition to some teams and likely won’t cost a fortune.

40. LT Jason Peters

Somehow Jason Peters is still plying his trade at an extremely high level despite approaching 38 years of age. That age obviously makes Peters a short-term option for prospective teams, and Peters also comes with a significant injury history and the prospect that he might not last 16 games in any given season. But he is still an impressive figure when he is on the field, and he ended the 2019 season with an overall PFF grade of 82.8 after allowing 25 total pressures on the season. Peters won’t be receiving many multi-year offers, but he could provide a very useful short-term fix for a team struggling to find answers on the offensive line.

39. CB Brian Poole

Coming off his best season, Poole posted an 80.0 coverage grade and allowed only 7.4 yards per reception in 2019, and he hits the market as an experienced slot corner. He graded in the 60.0s in coverage for the Falcons between 2016 and 2018 and missed double-digit tackles in all three seasons. Poole has played almost exclusively in the slot, so look for that to continue no matter where he ends up.

38. T Andrew Whitworth

With a position rank almost the same as his age, there’s no doubt Andrew Whitworth has finally started to decline. But given that he was arguably the best left tackle in the game when he was at his best, he still has a lot to offer a team willing to take a short-term rental while they figure out their long-term future on the offensive line. Whitworth just posted his lowest overall PFF grade since the 2008 season (72.8) but still had a pass-blocking grade of 84.7 that was still good enough to rank seventh among tackles. He also was beaten for just one sack all season. Whitworth’s All-Pro days may be long behind him, but there are many teams that could use him as a significant upgrade while they wait for a young player to develop.

37. CB Trae Waynes

As a former first-round draft pick, Trae Waynes hasn’t become the star that the Minnesota Vikings would have been hoping for, but he has developed into a consistently viable starter who excels in the run game while showing enough glimpses of coverage ability to keep teams buying into his overall potential. Waynes has impressive speed, but he has never been able to consistently avoid getting beaten enough to rank among the better corners in the game. He's given up 16 touchdowns over the last four seasons.

36. DI Mike Daniels

Mike Daniels isn't particularly hitting free agency at the best time, given how the past couple of seasons have gone for him, but he isn’t far removed from being one of the most disruptive interior linemen in the entire NFL. Daniels now has to sell teams on looking past his recent injury history, downtick in form and the fact that he is now the wrong side of 30. However, he can still generate pressure and play with excellent leverage against both run and pass — and he shouldn’t break the bank anymore.

35. CB Logan Ryan

Ryan has had a solid career, and he hits free agency once again after three years in Tennessee. He’s a slot corner who has graded between 62.0 and 76.2 in coverage in all but one year of his seven-year career, and that level of consistency makes him an intriguing candidate for teams looking for help in the slot. Ryan has generally been an excellent tackler, though 20 of his 49 career misses came in 2019.

34. DI Michael Pierce

Despite a down year by his lofty standards, Pierce has been one of the best run stoppers in the NFL since entering the league as an undrafted free agent in 2016. He peaked in 2018 with a 92.0 grade against the run, and that was also his best year as a pass-rusher, as he notched 21 pressures on 247 rushes. Pierce is a role player, but he’s proven to be capable of putting together a valuable 400-500 snaps as an early-down run stopper.

33. LB Joe Schobert

There’s been a distinct line between Schobert’s play in the run game (where he’s graded at 55.0 or below over the last two years) and in coverage (where he graded at an excellent 87.7 in 2018 and a solid 67.6 last year). He finished 2019 with four interceptions and four pass breakups, and he’s transitioned nicely from college pass-rusher to valuable coverage linebacker. In a new system, that pass-rushing ability could come in handy, as he only rushed the passer 62 times last season after rushing over 100 times in his previous two years as a starter.

32. Edge/LB Kyle Van Noy

After a slow start to his career in Detroit, Van Noy found a home in New England, and his versatility was an asset to the team as they made multiple Super Bowl runs. Van Noy is a true hybrid linebacker with pass-rushing skills, a coveted skillset by the Patriots and one that has him hitting free agency with many potential suitors given the recent growth of the Bill Belichick coaching tree. The 2019 season was the first year that we saw Van Noy used almost exclusively as a pass-rusher, and he picked up 60 pressures (eight sacks, nine QB hits, 43 hurries) on 464 rushes.

31. RB Melvin Gordon III

Nobody quite exemplifies the current understanding of running backs being dependent on their environment — at least long term — than Melvin Gordon. The Chargers star held out at the start of the 2019 season, looking for a big payday off the back of his best-graded season perhaps with the understanding that replicating that 2018 season was unlikely given the blocking in front of him. So it proved, as Gordon averaged only 3.8 yards per rush attempt, 2.5 of which came after contact, on his way to a 66.0 overall PFF grade. Gordon has shown he can be a big-time player with some help around him, but so have a lot of backs.

30. WR Breshad Perriman

On his third NFL team already, Breshad Perriman resurrected his career in Tampa Bay this season, particularly with his play down the stretch. A big-bodied receiver with elite speed, Perriman stepped up when the Bucs had an injury crisis at wide receiver and made a lot of big plays for quarterback Jameis Winston. Drops were the curse of his play in Baltimore, but he dropped just one pass in 65 targets for the Bucs, and Jameis Winston had a passer rating of 94.7 when throwing his way. Far from a sure-fire success going forward, Perriman did at least show teams that his first-round talent still exists.

29. TE AUSTIN HOOPER

Hooper has developed into a solid receiving option, but he’s more of a dependable, complementary piece rather than a mismatch creator. Since 2016, Hooper has gained 75.5% of his receiving production on targets defined as holes in zones or underneath the defense (think drag routes, flat routes) — by far the highest percentage in the league. Add to it that Hooper has just a 58.9 receiving grade against single coverage since 2016, and it’s clear that his production has largely been a product of the situation in Atlanta. All that said, Hooper is a mid-tier run blocker who can take advantage of being surrounded by good playmakers on the outside, and he has value as a complementary piece in the passing game.

28. S Jimmie Ward

Ward has worn many hats in the 49ers’ secondary, but 2019 has been his best season by a longshot, as he ranked eighth among safeties with an 84.2 overall grade during the regular season. After playing slot corner, outside corner and every safety variation, Ward’s career year came after spending 71% of his snaps at free safety, where he’s broken up eight passes and missed just three tackles on the year. Ward has been flying around the field this season, and he’s become a playmaker on the back end of one of the best defenses in the league.

27. RB Derrick Henry

Derrick Henry was the rushing champion in 2019 and set about an incredible playoff run that demonstrated an impressive ability to pound the football at the NFL level just as he did in high school and college, but it would be a mistake to get carried away with that performance and throw huge free agent money his way. Henry is barely a factor in the passing game and was the beneficiary of some solid offensive line play, and overwhelming data shows that running backs simply are more a product of their environment than their own transcendent talent.

26. DI Leonard Williams

Some of the gloss on Leonard Williams' career has faded, as he never became the dominant force along the defensive line that he was once pegged as. In his second year, he notched 55 total pressures and earned an overall PFF grade of 81.4, but that grade has slipped to barely above 70.0 this past season. The draw of Williams is that he has shown high-level play in the past, and will enter the 2020 season just 26 years old, but he needs to prove he can be a significant factor rushing the passer again or his value has a very defined cap to it.

25. DI Javon Hargrave

Javon Hargrave has improved his overall PFF grade in every year of his NFL career, and this season, he had to step into a larger role when Stephon Tuitt went down injured for the Pittsburgh Steelers. Hargrave played 200-plus snaps more than his previous career-high and showed that he can be more than just a run-stuffing nose tackle. He ended the season with 49 total pressures, which was a top-10 figure among interior defenders, and he did it while still grading well as a run defender and tackling with impressive efficiency. Interior defenders are readily available this offseason, but Hargrave is a good one.

24. DI D.J. Reader

Nose tackles upwards of 330 pounds aren’t as desirable as they used to be, so the good news is that D.J. Reader has been able to show that he is more than just a two-down run stuffer. Reader has played more snaps with each season of his NFL career and answered that increased workload with more pressures as a pass-rusher. This year he posted career-best marks in overall PFF grade (85.5), total pressures (36) and defensive stops (35), and he played over 600 snaps for the Texans. Reader will draw interest as a run stuffer, but he has proved that he can push the pocket and play on passing downs too, which is vital for his value.

23. S TRE BOSTON

Over the last three seasons, Boston has quietly been one of the best pure free safeties in the league, and he’s done it with three different teams. He’s not as versatile as other safeties on the list, as he lines up almost exclusively as a free safety, but with 11 interceptions and 16 pass breakups over the last three years, Boston is a game-changer on the back end. On the other hand, his tackling has been poor, as he’s missed 25 tackles over the last two seasons. While his tackling and lack of versatility drop his value, Boston is a perfect fit in a deep safety role for both single- and two-high safety teams.

22. TE ERIC EBRON

Even with a perceived rejuvenation to his career in 2018, Ebron has enough of a sample size for teams to feel comfortable about his skillset as a solid pass-catching threat and below-average run blocker. Ebron set career-highs in receptions (74), yards (827) and touchdowns (14) in 2018, though when paired with a 70.5 receiving grade, we see that some of that production was fool’s gold. Even if he never reaches those heights again, he’s heading into next season at 27 years old with four straight campaigns of 69.0-plus receiving grades — and that’s a good resume for an athletic tight end who can work the middle of the field.

21. S Ha Ha Clinton-Dix

Potentially heading on to his third team in fewer seasons, Ha Ha Clinton Dix took a short-term ‘prove-it’ deal with the Chicago Bears to try and hit the open market again with improved interest. As a former first-round pick, expectations for his play are high but may need to be adjusted to simply ‘solid’ given what he has shown so far in his NFL career. Clinton-Dix makes plays on the football in coverage, which is the most important aspect of safety play, but he can come up lightweight against power and misses too many tackles to be happy with (eight in each of the last three seasons).

20. DI/Edge Arik Armstead

Former first-round pick Arik Armstead has been a solid enough player for the 49ers since being drafted, but this season he took a step towards being something else entirely. Armstead has played the most snaps of his career this season and has been dramatically more productive as a pass-rusher, almost doubling his previous career-high in total pressures. Armstead has elite physical tools and impressive versatility, but a big leap forward in production in a contract year will always set alarm bells ringing. Armstead’s potential is significant, and he showed this season that high-level production is there to be drawn out of him if a team thinks they can be the one to do it.

19. WR Emmanuel Sanders

Returning from a significant injury, Sanders has been a better player late in his career than he was at the start of it. He has transformed the 49ers’ passing attack since arriving and is one of the savviest route runners in the league. In addition to all of that route-running skill, Sanders had just one drop this past season and has some of the best hands in the game. Age will scare teams off, and he’s certainly not a long-term option, but the veteran wideout has recently proven that he can completely change an offense in need of receiving help.

18. Edge Yannick Ngakoue

Ngakoue has followed his collegiate profile as a good pass-rusher and below-average run defender (career-high grade of 60.0 in 2018). His best season came in 2017, as he graded at 81.0 overall to go with an 88.2 pass-rush grade and 82 total pressures (14 sacks, 15 QB hits, 53 hurries). Over the last two years, he’s posted pass-rush grades of 76.8 in 2018 and 77.5 this season, both solid numbers but not at the 2017 level that had Ngakoue looking like the next great pass-rusher in the NFL. At just 25 years old, he looks like a strong presence off the edge for the foreseeable future, but his questionable run defense coupled with the fact that more valuable positions are hitting the open market has us lower on him than most.

17. Edge SHAQUIL BARRETT

Barrett has gone from underrated role player to potentially overrated pass-rusher after a career year that saw him pressure the quarterback 82 times (20 sacks, 18 QB hits, 44 hurries). The sacks will get most of the attention, and will perhaps lead to him being overpaid, but it’s the 82.0 pass-rush grade that is a better indicator of Barrett’s future success. He’s graded between 71.3 and 82.0 as a pass-rusher in all five years of his career, and that baseline projects a solid player rather than the Defensive Player of the Year candidate that the stats would suggest. Barrett deserves credit for taking advantage of a starting role and putting together a career year, but potential suitors must look beyond the gaudy sack totals before investing long term.

16. G JOE THUNEY

It’s been a story of continuous improvement for Thuney since entering the league in 2016, and he finished the 2019 regular season with the No. 5 overall grade among guards (77.4). Thuney has had his best year in pass protection, allowing just 16 pressures on 693 attempts, good for the third-highest pass-blocking grade in the league (87.4). A converted college offensive tackle, Thuney struggled against more powerful players early in his career, but he’s developed nicely into one of the best all-around guards in the league.

15. S DEVIN McCourty

The only thing keeping McCourty from being higher on the list is age, as he enters the 2020 season at 33 years old. McCourty exemplifies what you want in a “safe” safety, as he’s rarely out of position in the passing game and is a sure tackler in space with just 71 career misses on 890 tackle attempts. While McCourty has dabbled in multiple roles playing closer to the line of scrimmage or covering tight ends, he’s at his best as a deep free safety where he will rarely bust coverages and frequently take advantage of quarterback mistakes when presented.

14. G BRANDON SCHERFF

After playing over 1,000 snaps in each of his first two seasons, Scherff has battled injuries over the last three years, missing 15 games along the way. When healthy, he’s been among the league’s best, grading between 75.0 and 81.4 in all but one of his five NFL seasons. In 2019, Scherff finished with the No. 28 overall pass-blocking grade (72.0), but his No. 15 ranking on true pass sets bodes well for a resurgence next season. In the run game, Scherff ranked in the top six when blocking for both gap and zone schemes, and he is a fit for any NFL team looking to upgrade on the interior, though recent injuries are certainly a concern.

13. T JACK CONKLIN

Conklin is the best right tackle on the market, and he’s coming off a regular season which he finished 12th overall among tackles in PFF grade (78.3) and fifth in run-blocking grade (81.0). Conklin has some issues in pass protection, as his pass-blocking grade ranks just 49th on true pass sets over the last two seasons, and he’s on the higher end among offensive tackles receiving help (double teams, chip blocks, etc). Still, Conklin is a versatile run blocker who finished with the No. 6 grade on zone runs and the No. 14 mark on gap runs. He’s been one of the better right tackles in the league since being drafted in the first round in 2016.

12. S JUSTIN SIMMONS

Simmons had a breakout 2019 season, grading at 90.8 overall and earning PFF first-team All-Pro honors. The only thing keeping Simmons from being higher on the list is the multiple-year sample, as his previous three years saw Simmons grade between 60.9 and 75.3 prior to his 2019 ascension. The biggest place where Simmons improved has been at the catch point, where he broke up 11 passes in 2019 after breaking up just three in his first three years in the league. At only 26 years old, Simmons will be coveted by two-high safety teams with interchangeable roles, and the hope is that his breakout season was an indicator of big things to come. Even if he can’t duplicate his All-Pro season, Simmons still brings a solid all-around safety who can line up all over the field.

11. WR ROBBY ANDERSON

Another receiving weapon, Anderson has done his best work down the field for the Jets, where he has the 15th-best grade in the NFL on 20-plus yard throws since 2016 and ranks 11th in deep receiving yards (1,311). Anderson has been part of one of the worst groups of playmakers in the league during that time, making his value even more intriguing for a team that has better complementary pieces.

10. T ANTHONY CASTONZO

One of the most underrated players in the league, Castonzo has been consistently good throughout his career, posting above-average grades between 76.9 and 83.4 in every season dating back to 2012. He’s one of the best pass-protecting left tackles in the league — his 84.4 grade ranked eighth last year, and he had the fifth-highest grade in “true pass sets” (think pure dropback passing situations). Castonzo is less effective — but still solid — in the run game; he finished 16th among tackles with a 70.2 run-blocking grade last season while flashing his ability to play in any scheme. Heading into next season at 32 years old, Castonzo is one of the most valuable tackles in the league.

9. LB CORY LITTLETON

Littleton has quietly become one of the best coverage linebackers in the league, capable of running the seam with tight ends and closing quickly on running backs underneath. He has 18 pass breakups and six interceptions over the last two seasons, and he's posted a 90.6 coverage grade that ranks third-best in the league. However, while potential suitors are going to love Littleton’s ability to affect the passing game, he has had his struggles against the run. His 50.8 run-defense grade ranks just 103rd out of 126 qualifiers over the last two years, so that could hurt his value for teams looking for an all-around three-down linebacker.

8. TE HUNTER HENRY

Since entering the league in 2016, there have been two constants in Henry’s career: injuries and production. When healthy, he’s one of the best receiving tight ends in the game, and his 90.5 receiving grade against single coverage is eighth-best in the league since 2016. Henry is also a solid run blocker, posting above-average seasons in two out of his three full years. Any team looking for his services is going to get a mismatch weapon who can win in-line, in the slot or on the outside. That versatility is extremely valuable in today’s NFL.

7. Edge JADEVEON CLOWNEY

Clowney put up an 88.0 overall grade in 2018 — the highest mark of his career — and he followed up with an 87.3 grade after a trade to the Seahawks despite seeing his sack total drop from nine to three. Clowney has the 11th-best overall grade among all edge defenders since 2017, including the third-best mark against the run (91.3), but his pass-rush grade of 83.9 ranks just 25th among that same group. Pass-rushers earn massive contracts for their ability to get after the quarterback, but Clowney has always been good, not great, in that department. The price tag may be too high for many teams, but Clowney brings top run defense and solid pass-rush to the table, though his game has never really lived up to his draft hype and he’s never matched the production of other dominant edge defenders.

6. WR A.J. GREEN

While he’ll be 32 years old on opening day of the 2020 season, Green’s consistent track record of production makes him an intriguing offseason possibility for many passing attacks. Green missed all of 2019 after playing only 458 snaps in 2018, so injuries and age are certainly a risky proposition. But when healthy, Green wins at all levels of the field. He finished the decade with the sixth-highest grade among all receivers and 3,273 yards on deep passes, which ranked third. Green is worth a look for teams in need of a downfield threat on the outside.

5. CB CHRIS HARRIS JR.

Another top coverage player, Harris has an extended track record of success, but he’s going to be 31 at the start of the 2020 season. He’s also coming off his worst season, finishing with a slightly above-average coverage grade of 66.8. However, this was the first season of Harris’ career that saw him play exclusively on the outside after he spent the majority of his career cementing his standing as the best slot corner of the decade with more than enough talent to hold his own on the outside when needed. Harris is an intriguing candidate for teams looking to put him back in the slot, where he excels in both man and zone coverage.

4. CB BYRON JONES

A move to cornerback rejuvenated Jones’ career in 2018, as he showed that he could play single coverage on the outside at a high level. He finished with the 14th-best coverage grade among corners in 2018 (80.4) before dropping to 21st in 2019 (74.8), but those are extremely valuable numbers as he hits the open market. Many will point to Jones not picking off a pass over the last two years, but his 74.1 coverage grade in single coverage is 11th-best during that time, and he has also shown the ability to match up against tight ends when called upon. Jones brings youth and coverage ability to the open market, making him the top defensive free agent heading into the offseason.

3. S ANTHONY HARRIS

One of the league’s most underrated players, Harris has been a playmaker on the back end of the Minnesota defense since seeing extended playing time in 2018. Harris has the top regular-season coverage grade among safeties at 91.6 after ranking sixth last season. He’s played the majority of his snaps at free safety, but this season has seen him play about 40% of his snaps in the box or over the slot, showing that he can play a more versatile role in a defense. Harris has nine interceptions and seven pass breakups over the last two years, all while missing just four of his 100 tackle attempts. Playmaking, sure-tackling safeties are of immense value in the NFL, and Harris has shown both traits as much as any safety in the league over the last two seasons.

2. DI CHRIS JONES

Heading into his age-26 season, Jones is one of the best young defensive linemen in the game. He graded at 84.9 overall during the regular season, good for sixth among interior defensive linemen; it marks his third consecutive year in which he's ranked in the top eight at the position, and this year saw him move around the defensive front more than ever. Jones' 58 total pressures were the fourth-most among interior defenders this year, and he's proven to be a capable, disruptive run defender.

1. WR AMARI COOPER

There was a clear increase in production in the Dallas Cowboys‘ offense once Cooper arrived in the middle of 2018, and he finished the 2019 regular season with the seventh-highest overall grade among receivers (84.1). Cooper set a career-high with 503 yards on deep (20-plus yard) passes, the third-highest mark in the league, and he caught 62.5% of the deep passes that were thrown his way (tied for fifth). The Cowboys’ passing offense has been one of the league’s best with Cooper on the field, netting 122.0 EPA on his 907 plays compared to just 2.95 EPA on 425 plays without him. That massive difference is the best explanation for quarterback Dak Prescott’s increase in production and Cooper’s spot atop the offensive free agent list.

[Editor's Note: All ELITE subscribers have access to PFF's advanced statistics and grades for every NFL free agent this offseason. Subscribe today to gain access.]

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-the-50-best-available-nfl-free-agents-in-2020

A name that sticks out to me is Hunter Henry. Would love to have him.

I wouldn't mind throwing a little bit of cash at one of the aging tackles (Whitworth would be good). We just need someone to come in and hang onto the position for a season or two. A short, somewhat lucrative contract will keep one of them in the building and happy while we draft.

According to CBS Sports, the following players are likely to be tagged with either the franchise or transition designation. In 2020, teams will be able to employ both tags, effectively allowing them to retain two potential free agents.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agent...n-tags-in-2020/

Chris Jones DE
Marcus Peters CB
AJ Green WR
Austin Hooper TE
Hunter Henry TE
Yannick Ngakoue DE
Brandon Scherff G
Anthony Castonzo LT
Jarren Reed DT
Justin Simmons FS
Amari Cooper WR
Derrick Henry RB
Shaq Barrett LB
Bud Dupree OLB

**********

I'd be interested in LT Anthony Castonzo, RT Jack Conklin, and G's Joe Thuney or Brandon Scherff, and FS Anthony Harris just for starters.

I would not mind any of those guys...a few guys I wouldn't mind

Conklin RT- I mentioned on here before how much I want him...Titans will focus on Henry, Tannehill, Logan Ryan...I'm sure they want to keep Conklin as well...Hopefully we can land him. Will be expensive though.

Daryl Williams RT-Was one of the best RT's in football, then got injured...Played all over for Carolina last year at LT (he is not a LT) played LG for them...is a natural RT, should be better in his 2nd year from injury. maybe a more realistic signing

Cam Fleming RG/RT- would be an ideal back-up and spot starter


Karl Joseph SS- Will be affordable and was playing well prior to his injury...Injuries seem to be his downfill, def. need an insurance plan behind him...Raiders have Joyner and drafted Abram, so I think we can lure him.

Adrian Phillips FS/SS- I really like this guy, missed most of 2019, after making the Pro Bowl in 2018. Versatile and an over-achiever from DB "U" Will be reasonably priced as well.

Tavon Wilson FS/SS- He's started both positions, not flashy but effective enough....Getting older, but fills a need at a reasonable price.

Von Bell SS- Saints have numerous safeties in Gardner-Johnson and Marcus Williams...So he may leave, another option for our secondary.

Jarran Reed DT-Probably not realistic, but he can ball when he's focused.

Jordan Phillips DT- Man this guy can just power through you...probably not a realistic signing, but this guy is a bull.

Timmy Jernigan DT- I think this would be an ideal signing to play behind Sheldon and Ogu...Will be a reasonable signing, and someone to def rotate in...can slide to DE on run-stuffing downs. I think some of our Dline woes are from over-usage imho.

Christian Covington DT-Can slide around, and will be relatively cheap and a solid back-up...Was really good heading into last years FA.

Robert Quinn DE- Depends what we do with Vernon, But Quinn (despite being old) This guy is so underrated and he led all DE's in pressures...lord knows we can use that.

Everson Griffin -Another older guy, considering he may get cut loose since the Vikings cap situation...Once again, depends on what we do with Vernon.

JC...Didn't Marcus Peters already sign an extension with the Ravens?

Yes.

That would explain why he wasn't on PFF's top 100. The PFF article was from Jan 21, while the CBS report on who'll be tagged was from Dec 11 last year.

Nasibb made the list ... he’ll be highly sought after at # 100 .... ...

Jay Glazer: Chargers have moved on from Philip Rivers.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2873...020-free-agency

Yes. Henry or Hooper.

This off-season has the potential to be nuts for quarterbacks. Tom Brady, Philip Rivers, Derek Carr, Cam Newton, and Jameis Winston could all change teams.

Von Bell SS- Saints have numerous safeties in Gardner-Johnson and Marcus Williams...So he may leave, another option for our secondary.

Would love to sign Bell ...

Bridgewater too, I think.

I wouldn't be surprised to see us sign Mariota if we go that route.

Mariota is not a good starter. He would be among the best backups in the league.

Precisely. And analytics loves Mariota.

So does Ray Farmer.

I miss him.

He would be excellent as a teams back-up. He would give a team a solid chance if the starter went down.

The thing is some players can't accept the back-up role, at least right away. Sometimes it takes a while for reality to set.

I think there might be a few teams out there that will look at him to be a starter. Maybe a team drafting a QB and are looking for a bridge starter for a year or two.

I'd agree. Mariota isn't signing as a starter somewhere. He's going in as a back-up, maybe Chicago or Seattle or? In the right place he could be this year's Tannehill. Perhaps in Chicago?

I think Chicago and Mariota seems like a fit

Browns sign Fullback Johnny Stanton, 6-2 240, UNLV, most recently on the Vikings practice squad.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/browns-sign-fb-johnny-stanton

Cool! A fullback!!!

This guy was a QB in college?!?!!





https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/johnny-stanton-1.html

The next Kyle Juszczyk, hopefully.

Let's hope the 49ers Sashi Brown the paperwork and Harvard graduate from Medina, Ohio Kyle Juszczyk becomes a free agent because they decline his club option.

Super Bowl!!!

And a LB, and a TE, and played special teams. I'm not quite sure what to make of him.

I thought the same thing but I think those are just the positions he was trying out for in the NFL. His reference page doesn't have any defensive or receiving stats from his time in college.

Here we go .. Fullback option pass .. Super Bowl bound

You can see him making tackles from a LB spot and block a punt in his UNLV highlights.

Found a couple links from the Vikings coverage of him:

https://zonecoverage.com/2018/minnesota-...-minnesota/amp/

https://zonecoverage.com/2018/minnesota-vikings-news/vikings-training-camp-guide-fullbacks/amp/

This is practically exciting signing.

Welcome aboard. Flash bang some guys and win us some games.

I watched his video too. I don't know if he's an NFL FB, but his designation for the Combine should have been "football player". (Or, as John Dorsey would say "He's a foot-baw player, buddyboy.".)

And now he wears orange and brown...he matters!

Sorry.

Very odd.Everyone is saying KS has not decided what type of scheme he is going to run,but the very first signing is a fullback.
Doesn't make sense.

Coach speak is coach speak.

Wait. Who has said that?

Not implying it was you.
I don't keep track of who said what,when.
I believe the wording was "KS is still working thru things"

If this guy turns into a beast and a fan favourite, we got ourselves a new JFF!!

I think he has some broad ideas and an outline of basically what he has in mind. How we block it up front might still be a bit up in the air. I think Stefanski, Callahan, and Berry are going to be spending a lot of time together figuring out what the guys already here and the OL in the draft are good at, and trying to adjust for that. Stefanski talked about being "multiple". That could mean a lot of things. You can use a FB with zone blocked runs or man/power runs. He was in Minnesota for both kinds of offenses. They ran all kinds of iso with Adrian Peterson before going more zone recently.

j/c...

Cryptic tweet from Tom Terrific. Is he retiring? Leaving the Patriots?...

Oh man

I bet it is going to have something to do with a Super Bowl ad.

Passing the proverbial torch to Baker again?

You are likely correct. Didn't think of that initially.

Been hearing rumors over the past week of him going to Tampa Bay to finish out his career with Arians.

This article at least makes it sound plausible:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/tampa...e-agency-looms/

Unless thats just posturing to get Winston to lower his price

Pairing Brady with those Tampa Bay receivers would be very interesting.

AND the top tier OL.

Greg Olsen, Panthers mutually agree to part ways
Print
By Grant Gordon NFL.com

Longtime tight end standout Greg Olsen and the Panthers have agreed to mutually part ways, the team announced Thursday. The team's statement came with a lengthy statement from Olsen, as well.

Olsen, who was under contract with the team through 2020, stated he still has "love of football" and did not announce future plans.

The 34-year-old three-time Pro Bowler played his ninth season for the Panthers in 2019 following four years to begin his career with the Bears.

Not until after the Super Bowl can the Panthers officially release Olsen, but the announcement signals that formality is forthcoming, NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported. Olsen's contract would have cost $11.6 million against the Panthers cap in 2020.

Olsen's departure is the latest monumental change for Carolina, which dismissed longtime coach Ron Rivera during the season and replaced him with Matt Rhule. All-Pro linebacker Luke Kuechly surprisingly announced his retirement this offseason and quarterback Cam Newton, the face of the franchise, is entering the final season of his current contract with his future in doubt.

Though the monumental Newton decision -- as to whether he'll stay with Carolina or move on -- remains, Olsen's departure looks to lean toward a significant rebuild for the franchise and would also seem to lean to Newton donning another uniform for the first time in 2020.

While the Panthers move on, Olsen's future remains unclear.

Having received stellar reviews for past commentating spots, Olsen would have many suitors in the broadcasting world , but is also said to be interested in playing next season if the right opportunity is there, Rapoport reported.

Through the Panthers' greatest seasons, Olsen was a standard of spectacular consistency, seemingly always finding open space and Newton seemingly always finding him.

The tight end's three Pro Bowls came consecutively from 2014-2016 with Olsen tallying 1,000-plus yards receiving in each of those three campaigns. Since then, Olsen has been riddled by injuries over his previous three campaigns.

For his career, Olsen has 718 catches for 8,444 yards and 59 touchdowns -- 524 of those catches, 6,463 of those yards and 39 of those touchdowns came as a Panther.

A first-round draft pick out of Miami in 2007 with the Bears, Olsen looked outstanding at times, but misused for the majority of his days in Chicago.

Then he joined the Panthers and the best of times commenced, marked by Carolina's sterling 15-1 2015 season that concluded with a 2015 Super Bowl berth as Olsen became one of the NFL's premier tight ends.

On Thursday, the Panthers and Olsen announced they're parting ways, Carolina moving further into rebuild mode and the franchise's greatest tight end carrying on into the great unknown for now.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001...ee-to-part-ways

Preview of an UGGs commercial was my first thought.

Olsen would be a nice fit for Baker as a safety valve .. though I doubt he would consider here. He’ll end up in New Orleans, Green Bay, or a contender

Maybe Washington to follow Rivera?

Olsen to the Patriots would be my guess. If he plays. If not he's probably picked up by one of the networks that doesn't get Tony Romo for a commentator gig.

Jason Witten's contract is up and he still wants to play somewhere as well.

Olsen is who I think of when I envision best case scenario for our next TE. But actually getting him isn't the answer, unfortunately. IIRC, he's been pretty banged up the past couple years.

He'll probably go to the Giants for a year and then replace Freddie as TE coach. I'm fairly confident he's not getting another commentator job.

NYG i belive

I'm starting to think Mariota could end up with the Chargers.

Could be a bridge starter before they turn things over to Tua or Herbert, or simply a solid backup for them. Or the starter if they go a different direction in the draft.

They've had Tyrod there for a bit, so I think transitioning to a more mobile QB and a run-centric misdirection based offense is something they've been contemplating for a while.

That could be a fit, sure.

Tampa is interesting. Do they pony up for Jameis or go with Brady/Rivers

Guys, don't get your hopes up about the Browns being very active in Free Agency or making big trades. That ended with Dorsey leaving the building. Analytics says never spend big in FA or on older players. They build through the draft, trade-off or cut big salaries and amass lots of cap space which they really hate to spend. I suspect they will wait until all the big name FA's are signed and then spend very small amounts on a low tier player or two.

You just described the Patriots.

Do you think we have Bill Belichick on staff? Do you think these guys have the TIME to slowly and methodically build a team? Haslam doesn't have the patience and we don't have Bill Belichick or Tom Brady. What we need to do is keep spending(not stupidly but be willing to take some chances) and building this team to win NOW. Or this time next year or the year after we will be hiring a new HC and GM and rebuilding the entire thing AGAIN. We were on the way to having a really great team. This team has more talent now than at any time since the return. That didn't happen by playing it safe.

jameis is a turnover machine, Arians won't stand for that.. I truly think they will try to get a vet in there and make a run while Arians still coaching, then when he retires rebuild

By the way .. Didn't Arians say the Browns would be his dream job and wanted to come out of retirement to be head coach here.. but noooooo Dorsey wanted Freddie .. kinda makes you wonder

The argument that data driven front offices are unwilling to spend is not a valid one.

Please lay out for me these awesome free agents and trades that Dorsey engineered. I'll start:

FA

Sheldon Richardson
?


TRADE

Jarvis Landry
?


Biggest splash:

Zeitler, Peppers 1st Rd Pick for OBJ & Vernon - A trade I would unwind in a heartbeat if I could.

Free agents JD created...unnecessarily...meaning released

Nassib
Reiter
Perriman

What am I missing besides trading a disgruntled Duke?

Perriman needed to go, and Nassib wasn't cutting it any longer.
Reiter is just a guy whose position was backfilled by the same.

IIRC, Perriman asked for his release after the Beckham trade, so we might reasonably include him in the package for Beckham and Vernon.

The one that bugged me was trading Genard Avery. He could have helped a lot after Vernon's injuries and Garrett's suspension. For some reason he never saw the light of day once Freddie took over.

Perriman had agreed to a contract with the Browns, but had not signed it. He asked to be let out of the agreement, but the Browns could not have done anything to make him stay, because no deal had been signed at that time.

Perriman had a pretty good year in Tampa and was the downfield threat we gave away...6 TDs;

Nassib was a team captain for Tampa...6 sacks;

Reiter is the starting center for the Chiefs and will play in the Super Bowl tomorrow.

I left out the JD-created-free agent TE Fells...7 Tds

But the trade for Beckham preceded his backing away from the agreement - correct, or am I mis-remembering?

They had a verbal agreement from what I've found. Maybe the day before the Beckham trade?

Verbal, but not signed. Worthless, really.

He did back out once the trade for OBJ came through, because he didn't want to be the #4 receiver.

Oh what might have been:

Zeitler, Perriman, Peppers, Ogbah, Fells, and Dillard (LT, perhaps)

vs

Corbett->Kush->Teller, OBJ, Burnett, Vernon, Harris, and Robinson.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

Kind of bang-bang. I think they traded for Beckham and then mutually-agreed with Perriman to cease with the verbal agreement...an agreement that they had come to very-shortly before the trade. Maybe the same day.

It was a verbal...but my recollection of the "reporting" was that the Browns let him out of the contract. Which isn't really the case with a verbal. But who cared?

It's interesting because the timing makes me think JD would have liked to have/keep both...but did Perriman a solid after the playing field changed...so to speak. That...or he didn't think the OBJ trade would go through.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2825...l-beckham-trade

Odell Beckham Jr. is a trendsetter in more ways than one, and the most recent way showed itself after the Cleveland Browns reportedly acquired him in a trade with the New York Giants on Tuesday night.

ESPN's Adam Schefter and Chris Mortensen reported that Browns general manager John Dorsey and Perriman's agent, Drew Rosenhaus, have both agreed to void a verbal agreement between Cleveland and Perriman for a one-year, $4 million deal.

Now, Perriman is set to sign under the same terms with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Earlier in the evening, Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com relayed that Perriman wanted out of his one-year, $4 million deal with the team because of its trade for Beckham. Perriman had agreed to a new contract with Cleveland "just hours before" Dorsey turned his attention toward finalizing the blockbuster trade.

Come on guys....it's the time of the year, but could have beens an should have beens aren't productive conversation. Both are based on subjective opinion.

Lets talk about what is and if to speculative, maybe what we need to do.

We can't change what has already happened, no matter how hard we advocate one side or the other..

It was reported that Perriman was signed, then we did the OBJ deal, and Puff, Perriman wanted out

LOL, you're describing about 90% of the threads and posts in Pure Football. Sashi, Depo, Hue, Dorsey ... pro's and con's; football people vs analytics (as if they're mutually exclusive) ... ad infinitum, ad nauseam. It has become boring, predictable, unreadable.

Earlier, I added a post to this thread listing potential free agents hoping it might spur some discussion that was forward looking, instead of the usual, and it turned into a Dorsey critique. Then, after pretty much staying clear of the various bash-fests in Pure Football for a while now, I pipe up with a couple of minor peeves about Dorsey (who I wish was still here), and someone says "Guys, we need to be looking ahead, not backwards. I had to laugh, because that ship sailed some time ago, but all it took was one innocuous complaint about Dorsey from someone who supported him. I'm not criticizing you for saying that, just thinking it could have been said a lot earlier.

Yet Depodesta has used that exact method in both baseball and football. That doesn't mean that is what will happen moving forward. What it does mean is he would have to do a complete 180 moving forward. And people base their opinions on the evidence they have seen, not the predicted theories going forward that in no way resemble what they've seen to this point.

It is true that we can't change what's happened to this point. What we can do is look at what has happened to this point and who is still involved from that past that helped get us to where we were not so long ago.

And the one big mouth guy who isn't here...or anywhere of significance for that matter.

Depo...Berry...Sashi...all employed working for - or with - professional sports teams. Hue?

Yeah, basketball is the same thing.

Maybe you should take a look at the roster they assembled before you laugh. Then you would have something to really laugh about.

Professional basketball...kind of a big deal...all over the world. Check it out.

I'm kind of enjoying watching you twist in the wind over Depo, Berry, Sashi and the still-unemployed Hue...something I rarely do...but for you...I'm making an exception.

I lol every time I read your signature.

It's quite odd you find humor in accuracy. But I think I understand it. Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.

I agree. In fact don't be surprised if they get rid of some of the big name players Dorsey signed or traded for if they don't meet the new analytical standards.

I disagree.

Zeitler, Tretter, Reiter (he didn't play because of injuries, just won SB w/ KC as their starting center).

That's just off the top of my head. Zeitler is the biggy because they full-on Brinks-Trucked that signing. Most lucrative for a guard, at the time, I believe?

While analytics does tend to tell the purse-string-holders to not sign big-name FA's, analytics also told our FO at the time to hit (interior) Oline hard in FA, which they obviously did.

Re: the blockbuster trades, however.... I think you're right. Dorsey seemed to like to swing those big trades. I'll hold back breaking down my opinion of why I thought he was decently good at it.... but that said, I think I'm ok going back to a more conservative approach to acquiring and retaining players vs a bunch of big newsworthy moves.

I think a lot of things are being attributed to analytics that are just plain common sense. None of us are statisticians, but we know that the Browns need a right guard. We also know the Browns need better offensive tackles, linebackers, and DL backups. Now, statistics may tell us which we need to go for in which order, and which Free Agent may help us more, but all the statistics do is quantify which is needed more, in case there is any doubt.

Arguments happen all time over which is needed more, a Defensive End or a Right Guard, Dorsey felt that a good Defensive End, Vernon, was needed more than a Pro Browl Right Guard, Zeitler. He felt he had RG covered. Mistakes happen. I do not know if statistics would have backed him up or not, we will never know, but it is nice to be able to say that the numbers added up that backed up his choice. Unfortunately, as far as we know, this didn't happen.

I will say that I wasn't too happy about the return of some of the same faces that led the 1-31 campaigns, but my angst is wearing off.

I believe that ESPN article that came out a couple years ago that detailed the dumpster fire that was Berea during the Sashi-Hue era and how Haslam was fighting the fire with gasoline. While I think The Consensus did a pretty poor job with the picks that they did make, in the end their goal was to amass draft/FA ammo at the expense of the win-loss column. You can argue the intention of the mission (I do), but you can't argue they succeeded in their endeavor. From this perspective, I'm trying to give them a chance (maybe when they turn their intention towards actually winning, they'll succeed again).

As for your post, IIRC the data told them 2 things:
1. While the LT is the 'rock star' of the OL, the interior is where the most dangerous pressure comes from (up the gut)
2. It's hard to reliably develop young talent, even though they can be had for cheap.

With the data telling them that, they threw big bucks at those positions. With that, I'm confident they won't be cheap just for being cheap's sake.

Analytics said to trade down in the 2016 draft, and trade down some more.

We had the #2 pick in that draft, and could have drafted Carson Wentz, but instead chose to trade down with the Eagles so they could draft him instead.

We chose to follow analytics, and trade down more and more, getting "more bites at the apple".

Here is what that #2 overall pick turned into .....

Corey Coleman
Shon Coleman
Cody Kessler
Derrick Kindred
Spencer Drango
Ricardo Louis
Jordan Payton
Jabrill Peppers
Deshone Kizer
Denzel Ward
Chad Thomas

Umm ..... we really cleaned up there, didn't we?

I'm still not, and never will be convinced that the pressure your QB can't see coming, which the LT protects him from, is a bigger danger to your QB than the pressure he can see coming.

Trading down and making good picks are not the same thing.

Furthermore, if you are bad at making picks, wouldn't you want to have more picks?

(Everyone hits on less than 50% of their picks. Everyone.)

Well .... on the picks gained from trading away the 2nd overall pick ..... Sashi added ....... ZERO players who contribute to this team.

Dorsey added Ward.

Wow! What a great set of trades!

Ward is an all-pro and Thomas showed a lot of promise this season so it wasn't a total wash ...

Sashi Brown signed Kevin Zeitler as a free agent. At the time it was a record amount of money paid to a guard in free agency. Zeitler became the highest paid guard in the NFL.

Sashi Brown signed Joel Bitonio to a five year, $50 million contract extension. He is the currently the 9th highest paid guard in the league by guarantees (11th by his average annual salary). Bitonio was 27 when he signed his extension.

While in the long run it was a failed transaction, Sashi Brown signed Jamie Collins to a four-year contract extension, worth $50 million, with $26.5 million guaranteed. At the time Collins was the fifth highest paid linebacker.

The trades were good. The picks were bad.

Chad Thomas was the worst rated edge player in all of the NFL according to PFF.

Then the process failed.

I said he showed some promise not that he was ready for prime time ... Just yet

If being the worst rated at his position is promise then a lot of our terrible players have promise.

It is just my opinion, but then if I said Jim Brown showed promise you would argue about it

Sometimes good process yields bad results. For example, throwing a perfect breaking pitch on the outside corner of the plate is good process. Sometimes the hitter hits it for a home run.

What we don't know is if is the process is good in picking the players (we will never know that answer). I will say that traditional "football guys" have horrible drafts all the time. Literally multiple teams every year. Picking quality NFL players is really hard.

Say Denzel Ward has promise and see what I say. . .

Jim Brown rushed for 942 yards and 9 td's in a 12 game season as a rookie. So no, in that case you would be making a reasonable comment.

Some people ...

What a weird thing to announce.

This is from the team's official site:

I agree. I have long held that protection up the middle is more important than protection on the edges. Pressure up the middle is the fastest way to the QB. In the face pressure is hard to beat. Edge pressure can easily be beat if the QB can step up 2-3 feet. By stepping up, the outside angels are ruined and the tackle is back in position to ride the DE outside.


I am not saying a guy like Joe T isn't a handy guy to have, but stonewall the middle like we did when Zeitler was here, the tackles only have one thing to think about, don't get beat inside.

Again we go back to inside pressure. QB's hate that. Give the QB room to step up 3 feet, all is good. The good one's internal clock is going to tell them when they need to do that. If you aren't throwing on the 2nd read, step up a few feet.
Buy another 2 seconds.

That one thing being edge rushers. The highest paid, most sought after position in the front seven of NFL defenses.

The cost of the market dictates that the OT position is the most important and highly paid position on the OL.

Well, maybe it needs to change. DT's who can bring it from the inside are rare, but if you get one, it is gold.


It is a fairly short list....Mean Joe, Alex Karras, Merlin Olsen, Aaron Donald, Reggie White, Randy White, There are others.


Guys like that ruin game plans. I'll tell you what, if Derrick Brown from Auburn is available when we draft, he requires a game plan for him. We need to draft him.

j/c...

All you need to do is convince the entire NFL of that.

I don't need to convince them. They will figure it out. The new style of QB play will tell them that.

The Cleveland Browns announced their first player related move of 2020 offseason by waiving center Lo Falemaka. Falemaka was an undersized center out of Utah that spent the 2018 season with the Seattle Seahawks before the Browns added last summer when they were short on bodies that could snap due to a few injuries.

Unfortunately for Falemaka, injuries have had a big impact on his career. He only started one season in college at Utah after redshirting his freshman year and then getting approved for a sixth year of eligibility after he suffered an injury for the Utes.

Falemaka's time with the Browns seemed over almost as it started when he suffered a shoulder injury. The Browns waived him with an injury designation during the summer only to have him clear waivers, reverting to their injury reserve list.

The Browns signed J.C. Tretter to an extension to be their starting center, but they also have a few other options that can play behind him. Eric Kush, seems like the favorite to be the next man up, operating as a swing man for both guard and center.

After those two, it's a little more up in the air, though the team did sign Willie Wright to a reserves/futures contract after he spent the entire season on the practice squad. Wright played tackle in college at Tulsa, but he was utilized as both a guard and center in camp last year. In terms of physical traits, Wright has a great athletic profile, a good build and plays really hard when he's on the field. He's also younger than Falemaka, so while the Browns could bring in more competition at the position, Falemaka always looked like the odd man out at this position, functioning as a short term body that got hurt and was around due to being on injured reserve.

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/news/cleveland-browns-waive-center-lo-falemaka

#RosterTurnover

Wasn't their first move signing that PS fullback from Minny?

Yes. Sports Illustrated Maven is trash. I wish no one would ever post a link from the site.

Yep. When Maven Media bought Sports Illustrated they were able to use the reputable Sports Illustrated brand to give them credibility to articles written by Maven writers, much of whom are no more than fans with time on their hands to write opinion pieces.

Maven Media guessed correctly, because many people think they are actually reading Sports Illustrated articles by Sports Illustrated journalists. They're anything, but that.

More clicks on the Maven articles because of the SI brand, higher ad revenue and they do not have to pay actual journalists.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=3&theater

I thought this was kinda funny.

Just a thought. How will we know if any of the players we have should be replaced until we get the new system in?

Technically it doesn't go into effect until the new league year. At least that's the way I understood the reserve/futures contracts article. Plus, didn't we sign him before the Superbowl, which would mean the off-season hadn't started yet?

Not that it was a great article. I've seen many worse, though.

j/c...

He was also not good.

Better blocker than our TEs last season. Hands about as good as some we had there, too.

Not saying a whole lot, but depending on how you plan on using him, he does have some positive uses. If he can stay healthy.

Hands are desired at receiver. If you're just looking for competent bodies on special teams and ones that can block for other receivers on bubble screens and run fly sweeps at discount prices, he's not the worst choice ever.

Fine. Dorsey was a bum and the worst GM since the return. Since all of the players he brought in suck. Let's purge every single Dorsey player. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Clear out all of the players that he brought in and what do we have? Then we can get picks and cap room and do nothing at all with it which is EXACTLY what we were doing before Dorsey came. How many QB's did we pass on? Too SCARED to take a chance on one. How much cap space did we have? Yet how many FA's did we bring in? You like that so much then hell why not bring back Sashi and let him run it all? It was SO great that you want to return to those glory days... 1-15 and 0-16 were special years. By all means lets get back to that kind of Browns football since you enjoyed it so bloody much.

Overreact much?

Nobody is saying Dorsey was a bum, and Berry has already addressed the issue of purging the roster. He has no plans to do that. Obviously the roster isn't going to stay 100% the same. Rosters turn every year, on every team.

Depodesta has final say and Haslam backs him up. All Depodesta has to do is run to Haslam (behind Berry's back) to get his way, proclaiming this is what "the data" told the analytics side.

Then Haslam, who so easily influenced, goes over Berry's head and roster moves are made that Depodesta favors. I seriously doubt that Haslam even realizes that he is being manipulated.

The key test will be what happens with OBJ because he will be a prime target for Depodesta because of his contract and I'm sure that Depo can manipulate the data to prove that the Browns are better off "in the long run", without OBJ.

Forget what the Browns GM and/or HC want...Depodesta is still running the show in Cleveland.

GM did a selfie....

Think you need to combine that with this:

Have a link?

I don't know why you say Dorsey was a bum. He wasn't the worst GM we've had STR but he still wasn't very good.

You don't like the new-GM-roster-purge? Maybe that's why you said Dorsey was a bum. He jettisoned a lot of good players...and replaced them with really good practice squad players and backups.

Maybe you said Dorsey is a bum because of his lack of success in bringing in good free agents or at least better free agents than the ones he created by releasing them. Well...he did bring in Sheldon Richardson and...well...Sheldon Richardson.

Maybe you said Dorsey was a bum because of his numerous questionable draft picks...or his job-changing hire of Freddie.

In the end, I disagree with your saying that Dorsey was a bum. He wasn't a bum. But he was certainly nothing special while here.

FWIW, I really didn't have an issue with Dorsey. If he could have reigned in his ego he may have been fine here. But he got himself down-sized and couldn't deal with that. It's ok. My biggest beef is with the "all the talent he brought in" mantra... which is complete BS.

Don't need one.

J/C ... you completely missed the sarcasm, didn't you?

I look at Dorsey's time here like this:

When he took over this team, we had:

0 QB
1 backup/3rd down RB
1 TE
3 OL
1 RB

That was the offense.

We had a pair of really good DL, and a pair of useful LB. (one is a guy who moved inside to become a Pro Bowler in Schobert)

We had nothing in the secondary.

People want to talk about the "mistake" he made with Nassib, but what had he done here? Sometimes a guy has to get cut in order to figure it out. It happens all the time.

Dorsey was nothing special? Turning this team around, even to get to 7 and 6 wins, is a major accomplishment in and of itself. This team was in freefall, with very little talent, when Dorsey got here. (as noted above) I think that people forget just how bad this team was when Dorsey first got here.

Going into the season everyone everyone was farting rainbows and roses. They felt the talent was great. Now that Freddie botched up the season, everyone is trying to rewrite history.

Everyone includes you.

Not me though. I think John Dorsey built a great roster, he just lacks the interpersonal skills to survive in a workplace where he needs to rely on others.

I love how football fans on a message board suddenly see themselves as masters of psychoanalysis.

DePo's secret analytics weapon!...

OBJ DVOA Ranks:
2019 - 57
2018 - 37
2016 - 52
2015 - 27
2014 - 9

It's not a matter of psychoanalysis. It's whether or not (or how much) you believe the rumor-mill articles about Dorsey from KC and here.

When speaking of Dorsey, though, that isn't really a messageboard diagnosis.... it's out there from people that worked with him and know what went on inside the offices at KC. He established himself as such, and there are zero indicators that he wasn't continuing to be that person here in Cleveland.

He does NOT communicate well (hence his split with Reid who is all about communication and working together); he just decides stuff and goes and does it without consulting or informing others. Certainly within his powers, but not helpful when trying to build something.

If we want to go all psychoanalysis, I'd say that he has control issues and is a Lone Wolf type that exists in his own mental bubble. He's still great at most things he does, but that isolation keeps him from acting as part of the team; he isn't a leader as much as a despot.

I just find it odd how people think the NFL structure has gone through some kind of metamorphosis. In some places, depending on circumstances, maybe it has. Yet in other places not so much.

In what one considers the standard NFL structure the GM is the boss second only to the owner. The HC works under the GM.

Yet we see this scenario presented as if what happened in KC is somehow a one sided story where Dorsey is at fault. Nobody seems to consider that it looks just as much as if Reid was making a power play to take away and control some of the GM duties from Dorsey.

The only real difference here is that I can see how it could have played out either way. Others? Not so much.

So if it was Reid that got fired, the Chiefs would still be SB Champs this year?

Reading is fundamental.

It could look that way, but when the view being presented of Dorsey is outside of Reid while you have multiple people all saying how Reid is the sort that communicates well, it does lend it a bit more credence.


And no, the structures have no undergone metamorphosis. They're the same as it ever was, even here.

As for "analytics", it has been around for decades; since the first use of a stopwatch to time rookies in the 40-yard dash.... the only change is in that modern technology lets us measure so much more than straight line speed without pads; computers let us do that analysis in real-time, and databases
of this information allow us to store and query all the historical data we can gather, which allows for models and algorithms to be corrected and validated against larger sets of data with known outcomes, making them better, clearer predictors.

None of what we're doing is new, none of what we're doing controversial.
There are only misunderstandings of what we are doing.

I don't believe that I even mentioned analytics?

Reid could be a great communicator. He could have communicated very well that he was slowly taking over part of the GM's authority. Of course that also means he would not have used the word undermining in his description.

Would Mahomes look like the Mahomes we've seen if he'd been thrown in the fire his rookie year? Or would he have looked like Kizer under Hue?

Probably somewhere in the middle. Dorsey would have probably pressured Reid to get his guy on the field right away.

The pick was great. The patience, cooperation, and, dare I say it, alignment weren't there.

Dorsey was a good player picker, but a lousy executive. Planning, contracts, discipline, teamwork, and cohesion were not his strengths.

This is what pure speculation with zero evidence to base it on looks like.

You did not. I added it simply because it is seemingly endemic to every discussion about anything to do with this team lately.

If anything there is evidence in the opposite direction. Dorsey traded for Tyrod Taylor so that Baker wouldn't have to start the season.

But traded Carlos Hyde to get Nick Chubb on the field!

Typical.

Oh no!

Like I said, reading is fundamental. But since you obviously need an explanation anyway, I'll explain it to you.

Context is important. My post makes it rather plain that I believe that it just as easily could have been Reid that made a power play for taking powers away from Dorsey. People don't seem to consider that as a possibility.

That has zero to do with your comment.

You're welcome.

My bad. Sorry to bother you.

I suppose that's fair. I was thinking more about the Harris/Thomas type guys he brought in that got a good bit of playing time but didn't really seem to earn it on the field. Guys he didn't bring in, like Higgins, getting sidelined.

Dorsey just seems to be very opinionated, and doesn't seem to care about anyone else's plan. Even those he's supposed to be working with (maybe especially those...).

This is coming from the guy that posted a 2016 article in the another thread and thought it was relevant to the topic and time.

ReAdINg iS FuNdAmEnTaL.

Well said. In my terms, people don't like working with the guy.

I mean early on, he made it a point to say the old regime didn't get real football players, yet two of those guys were still employed, working for him.

Sorry, just a very rude thing to say....but they won out and doofus lost.

Things work out in the end.

It seems you tend to pick and choose who you have a problem with that says rude things.

You have serious issues.

Just practice what you preach.

As if somebody died and left you boss. Try being a poster and not some board poice. Nobody is listening to you but arch and device.

How wrong you are....again.

Proof yet once again that delusion of grandeur is a thing.

He was all for playing here as we revived his career...Yes, only after the OBJ trade did he think there was no reason to stay and if you ask Higgins he would agree after his experience.
jmho

From Albert Breer's Article referencing NFL possible player cuts:



I think this $11.5M figure is incorrect and it is $15.5M (according to Spotrac and OTC) and there would be zero dead cap money in cutting him.



$2.4M in dead cap to eat.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/02/10/super-bowl-liv-kansas-city-chiefs-breakdown-of-key-defensive-plays

I think there are easier ones to make, quite frankly, but the savings aren't as high:

1. Chris Hubbard: $4.8M in 2020 cap savings, if I read the numbers correctly. Only $2.4M in dead cap.

2. TJ Carrie: $6.3M in cap savings and $1.8M dead cap.

I understand the idea for cutting Vernon. If so, I hope we have a plan for a "replacement". Dude has been injured a lot recently, much like Kirksey so I see why they are both on the list. Perhaps a contract restructuring for Vernon from $15M to something significantly smaller could be in the works and if he actually plays healthy....lucky us. If not, cut him.

And I think the Kirksey cut might be more difficult with the uncertainty of Schobert's future on this team.

** Not sure on all the numbers **

Other potential cuts:

Demetrius Harris: $2,487,500 in cap savings and $1M in dead cap. PFF grade 45.0

Adarius Taylor: $2,440,625 in cap savings and $500K in dead cap. PFF grade 41.7

Eric Kush: $2,075,000 in cap savings and $350k in dead cap. PFF grade 45.4

Terrance Mitchell: $3,000,000 in cap savings and $666,668 in dead cap. PFF grade 63.1

Kendall Lamm: $2,350,000 in cap savings and $300k in dead cap. PFF grade 69.1

Morgan Burnett (depending on health and how they see Burris): $3,375,000 in cap savings and $1,325,000 in dead cap. PFF grade 67.8

That's a total of $15,728,125 in cap savings and $4,141,668.

I'm not sure about cutting Lamm as he can provide depth, as well as, Mitchell, but those are the potentials cuts that stood out.

They could also roll over some of this cap to 2021 when it's going to be time to start re-signing some of the core players, i.e., Garrett, Ward, Chubb, Baker.

We'll see what happens.

I'd like to keep Mitchell as well.

I think we'll keep Carrie. There is really no reason not to, and he has experience with our new DC. (who Carrie credits with turning his career around)

The reason to not keep Carrie is his salary might outweigh his value on the field. Especially if we find a way to actually play our best three corners.

We are not starving for cap savings, and it makes little sense to cut a quality slot corner just to save a few bucks.

Is he quality? I don’t know.

I wonder if Carrie gets a look at safety.

The numbers for TJ Carrie in 2019:

28th highest paid DB. As of now, he'd be the 23rd highest DB in 2020.
PFF Grade: 56.4
Passer Raing Allowed: 113.9 (NFL Rank #50)
Catch Rate Allowed: 66.2% (NFL Rank #59)
Pass Break Ups: 2 (NFL Rank #72)
TDs Allowed: 4 (NFL Rank #43)
Yards Allowed: 564 (NFL Rank #33)
Yards per Reception Allowed: 11.5 (NFL Rank #20)
Coverage Rating: -11.7 (NFL Rank #66)

Link and additional stats below...

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/t-j-carrie/

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2019/average/cornerback/

I agree. Vernon is the big one.

He is 30, has missed significant time the last few years....he is on the downward spiral. Let someone else gamble he will be able to play.

It isn't hard to replace a guy who doesn't play much.

Compared to some, no, but they make a lot more.

we would be cutting 4/5 of the team from last year if that was the case.

we don't really need cap relief. We need a coach to coach this underperforming 10 win team

Yikes, isn't that a sobering thought.

People really need to figure out if it was the HC or the players. Some seem to wish to have it both ways.

I don't know if we are that....we could be, but until we find a way to stop up the middle gash plays, 10 wins is going to be hard.

That is why I am thinking a solid DT is more important to wins over a OT early....no doubt we need to improve there as well.

I am thinking Javon Kinlaw needs to be our pick. Think Aaron Donald. Really.

Most of our problems on O were coach related problems. Most of our problems on D were player related.

I am of the opinion we need to take a DT, and there are two really stout DT's...Derrick Brown of Auburn and Javon Kinlaw of South Carolina. One of them will be there at #10 and won't be much later.

Some of y'all need to start checking out Kinlaw

Could Lamm be a possibility for starting RT?

I think he could. We talk about developing players. He has been about a few years. Maybe it is his time.

Teams do have to catch some breaks. I know the guy has the size.

I am half kidding but if I was his size and age, I would be killing people. It would be like Pee Wee ball and telling that really big 10 year old he was going to have to move up a age group.

You can't have 160 lb. kids playing with 110 lb. kids. In wrestling you have weight classifications. You don't have people at 210, light heavy weight, wrestling guys in the 130 lb class.

The rules simply don't allow the lighter guy to win, no matter his attitude and toughness.

I will take the super-conditioned, highly athletic 158-167 pounder over the fat-ass heavyweight all day long.

I'm rather surprised by your take on this Peen.

The SEC has relied on speed over size to dominate NCAA football. At least you call it dominating.

Much the same way Mike Shanahan did in Denver back in the days when he could put almost any RB in the gamer and have success. It has been shown many times that speed and agility, if used properly, can overcome and even dominate big bodies.

IMO- it largely depends on the scheme you're running as to which works best. I think sports like wrestling and boxing are bad analogies.

Personally I’d like a MLber that is a much surer tackler than Joe was 2 and 3 years ago ... i didn’t pay much attention this year so maybe he improved upon the previous 2 years ...

Not at tackle or wrestling...they might be fat ass wrestlers, but they are also conditioned to body slam 160 lb'ers until it hurts....like twice.

I agree with you Peen. As much help we need at the OT spots, I think we need to use the 10 spot to get someone to stop the run. Either DT, LB, or address the safety spot.

I'm a HUGEEEE fan of the DT from Auburn (Brown). I'll have to check out the guy from USC. Thanks for mentioning him.

In terms of guys we have, I hope we keep our CBs. I love mOney mitch. He's a beast. Williams, Ward, Mitchell, and Carrie (weakest link) is a pretty solid 4. Especially if we play more man coverage.

One, all you have to do is look at record. I think the SEC was 8-2 in bowl games this year.

Other than that, I am not sure what you are talking about.

It’s a six win team.

I agree we don’t need cap relief. But if you can get the same play from a different player for much cheaper and redistribute the money elsewhere you should do it. Carrie is the definition of a replacement level player.

Clearly, you never wrestled...

It really varies by position.

Here are OLs:


Link

I'll take his what we know we are going to get out of him vs another ralph brown. we don't need to cut players to make space... why make space?

here is our dead money next year:

Dead Money
Name Cap Number
Austin Corbett $1,773,962 (ouch)
Duke Johnson $1,500,000
Chris Smith $1,166,668
Antonio Callaway $358,928
Genard Avery $144,474
TOTAL $5,087,312


Here is our cap situation
Total Cap Liabilities: $185,694,507
Top 51: $177,546,195
Team Cap Space: $49,574,690

Why are we cutting players again to get cheaper/crappier players?

Because paying our fourth corner $8,150,000 seems like a bit much. And he's not even that good to begin with.

It may not seem like much but we are going to need the money soon. Myles Garrett is eligible for an extension this off-season, if OBJ returns to form he will want a restructure, Chubb, Baker and Ward are eligible for extensions next off-season. On top of all that we have roster spots that we will need to fill through free agency this year. Not to mention possibly re-signing Schobert and/or others.

My guess is that Carrie will not be on the roster at all and definitely not with his current contract.

I did in Jr High, but no, I wasn't a wrestler. None the less, there are weight classifications for a reason. No?

I may have missed a point in Pit's post. I agree agility and speed are important factors with linemen. Even more important that simple brute strength, but you aren't going to find 230lb guards in the league either.

j/c:

Free agency will officially begin on March 18th at 4:00 PM ET. The players below will have their contracts expire if the Cleveland Browns do not do anything by March 18th:

Unrestricted Free Agent
These are players who the Browns have no roster control over, other than exclusive negotiating rights up until a few days before free agency.

QB Drew Stanton
WR Rashard Higgins
LT Greg Robinson
MLB Joe Schobert
S Damarious Randall
S Juston Burris
S Eric Murray

Restricted Free Agent
These are for players who have at least three years of accrued service in the NFL (i.e. 6 games or more on the roster or IR). The Browns can choose to place a 1st round tender, 2nd round tender, or original round tender on each player.

Over the Cap estimates the 2020 tenders to be $4.667 million for the 1st round tender, $3.278 million for the 2nd round tender, and $2.144 million for original round tenders. Another team can sign a player with a tender, but they would owe that team the corresponding draft pick if the team opts not to match the offer. If these players are not tendered by the start of free agency, they revert to unrestricted free agents.

RB Kareem Hunt
TE Ricky Seals-Jones
OT Justin McCray
DE Bryan Cox

Exclusive-Rights Free Agent
The ERFA label applies to players who have less than three accrued seasons in the NFL (i.e. 6 games or more on the roster or IR). Under the ERFA rules, the Browns could offer these players a one-year, minimum salary tender for $510,000, $585,000, or $660,000 based on credited seasons (i.e. 3 games or more on the roster, but not including IR) (i.e. in the league. If the Browns make an offer to an ERFA, no other team would be able to sign the player.

RB Dontrell Hilliard
WR KhaDarel Hodge
TE Pharaoh Brown

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2020/2/11/21132919/list-of-the-cleveland-browns-free-agents

Yeah, I wasn't trying to consider such a huge discrepancy. I certainly agree you won't find 230# guards. What I meant was that, let's use a zone blocking scheme as an example... You would probably be better served with say a 300# guard with agility than a 325# road grader.

That only holds up until the 325# road grader also has better agility than the "agile" 300# guard.

It's certainly on a case by case basis.

I can agree, and zone looks to be what we are going to do.

Something on the list....Stanton.


Maybe we don't have a QB coach formally hired because we might keep him is some QB coaching capacity?

I doubt we sign him and it's questionable if anyone else does.

Just a thought.


Van Pelt or Stef could assist him in the job. Maybe mentor him is a better word.

Anybody who was associated with Baker's "development" in 2019 needs to be gone. We were told Stanton was kept because he was a good guy to have around Baker. My perception was that he was goofball lackey who did nothing to further Baker's QB in a positive direction (while making $2.65M). Next time somebody says we should keep a veteran around to help out the young players we should all remember Drew Stanton as an example of why that is not a great idea. Let the coaches coach.

I'd rather go with Sam Bradford if we're going the former player route. Spent time with Stefanski in Minnesota and has Oklahoma ties for Baker. I doubt we go that way, though.

T.C. McCartney is allegedly going to be our QB coach. Alex Van Pelt is the guy though.

Sam Bradford has zero coaching experience.

I agree with Peen in principal but also agree with you that Stanton isn't the guy for the job.

Coaches are constrained in the time they can work with a QB based on the CBA. However, other players are not. So it is a great idea to have a veteran QB on the roster to work with a young QB to help extend the time he can be worked with in his development.

What does concern me is whether Baker is the type of QB to listen to other players. We have seen what he thinks of working with QB specialists during the off season by calling them "broom sweepers" and his comment “I do not need somebody to teach me how to do a three-step drop,”. So I'm not sure if I can see him taking instruction from someone he believes skill set is inferior to his own.

The pupil has to be open to being taught. So I'm not actually sure if the problem was on Stanton or Baker.

JC....you never know who is going to be a good coach.

I have read that Stanton and Baker see eye to eye. Kind of like Danielson and Kosar.

Probably best Gary went in to announcing. Less hours I am sure and probably pays better announcing the SEC game of the week on CBS.

I think the players can have unlimited access to the coaches, but the team cannot demand the players' attendance during the down periods. Don't quote me on that though.

I quoted you. It's not true. Players and coaches cannot have contact about football



https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/...eement/8227871/

Of course there are ways around these rules. For example, Coach A has a friend who is a private QB coach. Coach A gives QB coach friend the "playbook". QB coach then gives the "playbook" to the players.

I don't think so. It's limited. They can talk to people if walking around the building, and maybe ask or answer a few questions in a informal setting, but am pretty sure they can't head out to the field and actually work on things.

I also think things were amended that players can interact with a strength coach.

The guys can get hurt if doing thing improperly. I think they figured out that having a strength coach in the weight room was a good thing.

I am pretty sure that strength coaches don't get play books.

j/c...

Anthony Harris would be a nice addition if he hits the open market...

Not the be-all, end-all:

Harris- 90.5 PFF score
Kearse- 89.0
Alexander- 65.7
Waynes- 65.1

He's already 28 and has only been a full-time starter for one year.

Was last year an aberration or what we can expect going forward?

Fortunately, we have some guys who should have some insight into that in Howard and Stefanski.

He sounds like he'd be nice to have. "At what price?" is the ever present question in free agency.

Here is his Calculated Market Value per Spotrac...



https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/anthony-harris-17018/market-value/

Another potential target in FA, Justin Simmons. PFF grade in 2019 was 90.8.



https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/justin-simmons-19052/market-value/

I've been pondering Jimmie Ward with the Woods connection.

Oh crap. I just posted something from some dude who is dressed up like a wizard.

My apologies.

....

Thats funny ...

And embarrassing.

Apparently SI was sold last year to a group that fired most of the staff there and replaced them with freelancers and bloggers. The magazine that used to publish work by writers like Dan Jenkins, Frank Deford, Tex Maule, and many other accomplished sports journalists now features guys in wizard hats from fan sites.

https://www.geekwire.com/2019/maven-seat...trated-layoffs/

Things fall apart, its scientific.

SI is basically a blog site except for a few people.

How many times do I have to tell you it's a crown, not a wizard's hat? And it's not the guy's photo, it's from a movie.

Thanks. I did not know that. I grew-up w/publications like SI. They did have some great writers. Very sad.

First I heard of it was in the last week or so when someone mentioned it here on DT, so don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

j/c...

j/c:

I bet he still avoids us like the plague.

We might do the same.

Browns are releasing LB Adarius Taylor, league source tells clevelanddotcom

https://twitter.com/MaryKayCabot/status/1229443841553506304

Per the article posted yesterday....

Interesting.

Also from the article:

None of these names are surprising. Carrie’s contract was too big for his role, Kush is a below replacement level starter, Harris completely underperformed, and Taylor is a special teamer who was getting paid too much.

My guess is that this is going to turn into a "cutting Dorsey's guys" thing. My response to that is that I would have guessed these guys would be cut even if Dorsey was still in charge. All of their contracts were greater than their value on the field.

Also to note, Olivier Vernon didn't get cut.

I used to get attached to players.. Anymore, they can cut or trade anyone they want as long as the replacement is better.

How so? Pretty expected in this corner.


Carrie might be the only mild surprise. Had John been here, the news would have probably been the same.


What are we talking about here? You didn't expect roster change?

Nor did Hubbard. Considering their lack of depth at these positions for the time being, I'm guessing they will be held on until other people are signed. And I'm speaking more about Hubbard than Vernon, but I don't think he is particularly safe either.

Let's redirect that to Schobert, please.

That's why, if I were going to be surprised by any of those names, it would have to be Harris. I wasn't a fan, but we are really bare at the TE position, especially when it comes to blocking.

Carrie was definitely overpaid, but we seem to always struggle for at least a couple games each year to field a competent secondary due to injuries piling up. Carrie offered some versatility despite not being a world-beater.

Demetrius Harris was a disappointment from the very first snap of 2019 but I get what you're saying regarding the TE position overall. Maybe Berry is really high on Njoku (was part of the crew that drafted him) and would like to actually play him this season. But only Carlson is alongside Njoku as having a contract w/ the Browns. The rest are on pace to be FAs in a month.

I'm guessing they feel like they can get an equally crappy TE like Harris for a lot less $.

The surprise cut to me among the players was Kush. I know he was a possibility and don't think he is great or anything but seemed like he could be depth at both guard positions.

j/c:

Glad the Analytics guys are back in charge. With Dorsey, we had to read boring stories about all his trades and signings. The Analytics guys provide us exciting reads where we are cutting players so we can save $2 million on a particular player.

Let the good times roll...

None of these cuts are a surprise. Carrie was set to make $8.1M this season and the performance didn't warrant the money.

2019 PFF grades for the players released:

Carrie: 56.4
Taylor: 41.7
Kush: 45.4
Harris: 44.9

Depo's degree is in economics...something Jimmy really likes..making his money and keeping it.

The Browns front office is still waiting for that award for cap space...

I love how people's asses are chapped for cutting bad players/contracts so we can allocate it elsewhere.

I think Wyatt Teller made him expendable.

The only guy I view as a Dorsey guy is Harris. Outside of that, all these other guys were likely to get cut anyway.

Harris would have likely gotten another opportunity under Dorsey.

I'd consider Carrie a Dorsey guy. He was the one who signed him to a four-year, $31 million contract that included $15.50 million guaranteed.

I know right? We should be doing all these trades and signings of other teams' pending FAs even though we're not allowed to yet.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Goodell!

4 down:

Player 2020 Cap Dead Cap Savings
Travis Carrie 8150000 1800000 6350000
Demetrius Harris 3500000 1000000 2500000
Adarius Taylor 2950000 500000 2450000
Eric Kush 2425000 350000 2075000
Totals: 17025000 3650000 13375000


3 to go:

Player 2020 Cap Dead Cap Savings
Christian Kirksey 9950000 2400000 7550000
Chris Hubbard 7300000 2400000 4900000
Morgan Burnett 4825000 1325000 3500000
Totals: 22075000 6125000 15950000

I hope not. LB, OT, and safety are positions where we are seriously thin on talent. I get why you want to cut those guys, but it makes no sense until you have clear upgrades.

We literally can’t sign or trade anyone right now. Cutting players is the only thing we can do right now.

Also, who made more trades than Sashi Brown? I’m not sure excitement is what we should be looking for out of the front office.

Burnett tore his Achilles, he may not even be able to play. Hubbard is sub replacement level. Kirksey has played nine games in two years and is average when he does play. These are not the type of guys we should worried about cutting. We can sign guys to one year contracts and replace their production.

j/c

The thing is that nobody should be either excited nor upset about cutting these players. None of them seems to be the core talent we have. They were depth players.

As has been pointed out, we can't go out and replace them right now.

The only way we can measure the good or bad in any of this is when we see what moves they make to replace them and how the players we cut perform elsewhere.

Let's use Carrie as an example. Last season was his worst yet. Is that on Carrie or is it on the coaching staff? Was he used properly? The only way you'll get a clear answer to that is to see how he performs at his next destination. If he is used differently and performs better, it would appear they made poor judgement by blaming the player for the results.

Like I said, it's too early to tell about that.

If we improve their positions or get equal players for less money, it will be a win. If we don't, it will be a loss. Only time will tell for sure.

I do find one thing odd though. What we all seem to agree on is that Freddie was a terrible coach. Yet many wish to try and analyze player performance under a terrible coach. In the end it may not be that simple.

They ARE the guys you worry about cutting when they're the best you've got. If we can sign a guy that's better w/o much effort, then let's do that and then we can cut starters.

Like I said, I get that we want someone better/more reliable at those positions, but cutting players doesn't get us any closer to having a competent player in there. It only opens up the possibility that you get worse.

Sorry for any confusion. I wasn't saying cut them right now or even cut all 3, just that I had a list back in November of guys I expected to be "replaced" in some fashion and we took out a large chunk of them today.

I was mostly laughing to myself.

Seriously though, I would rather bring back Robinson than Hubbard and Kirksey's clock is ticking either way.

That is a good compromise. I would just say that just because guys started it doesn't mean they are starters. Hubbard is way below the level of production you would with your starting right tackle.

Quit acting like some if not all of those guys weren't going to be cut.

Sorry man, the roster wasn't going to remain the same even if the Dorse was still here.

Geesh.

I don't love it. I find it sad.

It's chapped asses sore because their guys failed to produce a winner like they expected.

Don't blame the new guys for the old guys failure is my attitude.

But opening up more money possibly does.

Every team cuts players this time of year and we have some Whining about cutting Kush. LOL



Give ma a break!

A lot of people down on Hubbard. He was the best RT on the roster last year. I agree he was pretty bad as a RT. But I think he would be the best RG on our roster and actually be pretty decent as RG compared to the others in the league.

Good cuts IMO. Marginal (very marginal) players in exchange for that cap savings.

Harris is one of the worst TE’s we’ve ever fielded

Is the experiment worth his salary?

I really don't want to get into any personal battles, but peen.......you are off the chain. I've been reading your posts and you are telling folks to go root for another team and making comments like the one above. Hell, I just came from another thread and you were trashing YTown and Pit.

The crazy thing is that you and some others [who I won't even talk to] have been crying and complaining ever since Sashi was fired.

And you have the nerve to say don't blame the new guys for the old guy's failure AFTER the previous old guys went 1 and 31?

Seriously man. Get real! I expect that type of stuff from some posters on here, but I am surprised you have fallen that low.

And, you can fire back on me and I won't mind because I was pretty harsh just now. I just had to get that out there because it is something that I have had a hard time with for quite awhile now. So be it if this gets to the point where you and I don't speak.

Anyway.........I already knew that we couldn't make trades right now. Then again, I didn't think it was a must to cut guys now before we had replacements. This is same stupid crap that the "smart guys" did when they led us to 1 and 31.

Dorsey waited and made trades like:

Kizer for Randall. Randall was kinda crazy last year, but Kizer is beyond terrible.

He got picks for bums like Kessler and Hogan.

He got a pick for C. Coleman.......the "smart guys" first pick ever.

He got a 3rd for Duke after the world knew the relationship was doomed.

He even got a 4th for Avery, who was a 5th round pick. There are a couple of guys saying that he got less than than what he spent, but that is incorrect. He probably didn't even want to trade Avery, but Wilkes would not play him. I don't think Avery did much in Philly. I could be wrong about that, but I never saw him when I watched the Eagles.

He absolutely stole OBJ from the Giants. Peppers is an in the box SS and those guys are a dime a dozen.

I do think he lost the trade of Zeitler for Vernon. I understood it. He was trying to create a fierce pass rush and help Myles prosper. Edge dudes are more valuable than RGs. I think he lost that trade, though.

The trade of Ogbah for Murray was probably a wash. Neither guy fit into the other team's needs.

The trade of a 4th round pick for Landry was absolute highway robbery.

Signing Hunt was a brilliant and inexpensive move.

I just don't see what's so great about cutting all of these guys right now when we haven't yet replaced them. I think Carey is a much more valuable player than his PFF numbers. I do think those numbers are probably justified, but Carey played in the slot. He played outside. He played some safety when we needed him to. He is very versatile and cutting him w/out getting a better player is dumb. But yeah, we saved a couple of million.

This is the kind of crap that happens when you get rid of the football guys. And before anyone misrepresents what I am saying.........I will say it for the hundredth time......I believe in analytics. I think you need those guys in your organization. But, that doesn't mean to get rid of all the football guys and rely on guys who have already proven to be a disaster of epic proportions!

The thing is, I don't think you were harsh. I am a big boy and consider you a friend


I expect honest talk from friends.


We will always speak.

I have had my allotment of bourbon for the evening....usually around 4:30 is when I will pick this back up.

All's good my friend. We can disagree, but we remain friends. That is how it is to work, right?

So hope we don't cut Kirko.

Why? What has he done for the team in the past 2 years?

I get new regimes get rid of old regime players. Hate that. It’s like ego won’t let them admit someone else has eye for talent. I don’t have a problem so much as cutting these guys but this early before the staff has a chance to see them and evaluate fit just creates more holes where we can’t afford more

I was pretty harsh. It's just been something that built up because I have been holding it in for awhile.

Much respect for your reply. I deserved some grief because I went at you pretty hard. You took the high road and I admire that.

I don't know that I would call it an experiment. If I am not mistaken, he played a good bit guard for the steelers (don't know if LG or RG).

I don't know his salary, or more importantly his cap hit but even if I did, I wouldn't know if it is worth it.

I think it's convenient to pick 2 as your lucky number, although he's been a Brown for 6 seasons.

But to answer your question, in the past 2 years, he's had 2 picks, a fumble recovery, 5 pass deflections, 54 tackles, and 3 tackles for loss.

Kirko has talent. I hope we keep him.

We saved over $8 million in cutting Carrie.

Thank you for the clarification.

We created another hole in cutting Carrie.

This is a difference of opinion. I'm fine w/you thinking that saving money is more important than what he gave to the team. I don't begrudge your opinion. However, I will keep my opinion that it would be wiser to keep guys like him until a better option is found. I hope that you don't mind my opinion?

The way i see it, i think they just saved 14 million dollars. Hopefully that's all money being put together to make sure Schobert is here next season.

The only one of that bunch i question cutting is TJ Carrie. i get it, but as you said, he's valuable. He's a decent player who is versatile. But from what i remember, looking at his contract when he was signed, it always looked like year three he'd be cut.


I don't think losing any of these guys is something we can't come back from

It depends on their contracts.... if any of them are due roster bonuses that we don't want to pay, then you need to cut them before we can sign anyone because free agency starts at the same time roster bonuses would become effective. So, sometimes you cannot wait - you have to pull the trigger and hope your plan to replace them falls into place.

The way I see it is that we're clearing out guys and contracts that don't have a future here and in the process, we're creating additional money to go not only retain our own, but go after guys that will hopefully be a better fit.


As for creating holes.... all of them pretty much were a hole in the roster as it is. Each and every one of them was a weakpoint.... so, it's not like we just created some dire situation. We ripped off some bad patches and are going to try to find better patches; maybe even a way to fix things.

Plus, if you know they aren't in the plans, cutting them now it the right thing to do.

It would be a disservice to them to wait until after teams have signed other players.

If the Browns are able to add better players in place of those players they cut...they are helping the team.

If the Browns are cutting players just to escape paying the money without any present plan to upgrade the position..that can come back to hurt the team.

J/C - We can't sign anyone as yet, so we dont know what the plan is. Cutting the guys that were cut - I can see why we did it. As long as there is a succession plan in place, then we will re-invest the cap. It isn't about money vs players. It's about how to better utilise the $$$. That second point will remain the question.

The fact we haven't cut Vernon, for example, indicates to me that saving cap is not the priority. All FOs want to maximise the ROI. Vernon is talented but unlucky with injuries. Maybe next season, the dice roll with him.

About Carey,

Repeating what I've read in different sports reports. Both Burris and Murray have been mentioned as capable of playing in the slot. Don't know that to be true but this might have factored into Carey's release.

I don't want to sound like a broken record as I've said this before, but I met Carrie. He was probably the nicest, engaging, most polite Browns player I have had the chance/pleasure to meet. He was truly excited to be coming to the Browns...I met him maybe 3-4 months after he signed. I believe his wife is originally from the area and he played at Ohio U, so it was good for them in that regard..

But the guy was simply not good. There might have been a game or two where he would make a couple nice, consecutive plays on the ball but that was essentially it. He was flagged all the time as a result of not being able to stick with his WR. He was signed to starting CB money, and it was evident early on that was a big mistake. I don't believe it was that long into 2018 to where he lost his starting role.

I suppose the idea of a contract restructure could have been discussed, and maybe it was for all we know, but I think the FO decided they can get essentially anyone to do what Carrie did for us these past two years. Certainly cheaper.... and perhaps younger than 30, which is what he'll be come the start of the 2020 season. I think Carrie is what he is at this stage in his career and the upside just isn't there, IMO. Well, the upside is what money we get back for cutting him.

Best of luck, Carrie.

Gosh, can you imagine the uproar if we had cut players like Jamie Collins and Darren Fells to save a buck before we signed a free agent to replace them?


The double standard marches on...

Agreed that in order for Carrie to remain he would have had to restructure his contract. $8.1M was far too much for his on-field performance. And yes, he was one of the great guys and adults on the team.

Also, Terrance Mitchell had an overall coverage grade per PFF of 61.1 as compared to Carrie's overall coverage grade per PFF of 47.7.

Here are Carrie's numbers per PFF when covering only the slot...

I agree with this take on Carrie. Of the 4, this is the one I question. This does create a hole, and we are not up against the cap at this point.

The TE was a disappointment. He came he with the rep of being a good blocker with good hands, and did not show either.

Just an FYI, Eric Murray is a UFA.

j/c:

I looked it up and the Browns will save $6.35 million with $1.8 million in dead money.

Hopefully cutting Carrie means they liked what they were seeing from Donnie Lewis at the end of the season.

IIRC, he had a big year w/ the Raiders (?) that led to this latest (very lucrative) contract. He cashed in off his contract year. Not a positive for the regime that signed him, but we've seen much much worse. Plus, he did help us out when we were banged up in the secondary.

We did fix a mistake regarding his contract by cutting him, but some of the hand-wringing is a bit much (by those that are doing it).

I knew you would be one of the first to complain about cutting players.


It's not about money, but I am barking up the wrong tree if I continue.

Stay clueless.

j/c...

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Taysom Hill (who is somehow 30 years old) and Teddy Bridgewater.

Mormon

j/c:

Good gosh,,,,teams cutting players. How dare them.

I don't believe, peen, that mac is 'clueless' in any respect, but I do believe that he is barking up the wrong tree...

I can't believe that NOBODY has signed replacement players first

Maybe we can make a trade?!

j/c...

that just proves what I have suspected, ballpeen. the analytics guys have taken over the Eagles franchise!!

Goodness. I thought teams were not allowed to sign players right now?

One thing that amazes me is that there the very same folks [for the most part] who are making fun of posters "freaking out" over the cuts are the very same posters who constantly talked about stiffs such as Nassib. How many times did we read that garbage?

I remember reading a Browns Post Game thread after they played a 1:00 game and one poster's contributions were updates on Zane Gonzalez and Ogbah in the late afternoon games. That's okay, though.

There were hundreds of posts about how overpaid Landry was. There were countless posts about Higgins and Avery and how bad OBJ was. All that was okay, but saying that it might have been wise to keep Carrie until a better player is found is over the top.

Big time double standards on here.

Freeing up cap space so they can sign Brady

"Other teams pending free agents" and trades. But hey, if you think signing a 34-year old tight end to a one-year deal would be something Dorsey would do to get you warm and fuzzy inside this time of year, you do you.



Please quote me correctly...I believe I said "asses are chapped".

And Nassib is not a stiff. You're just (1) still salty, (2) trying to get attention, or (3) which is my guess- both 1 and 2.



Imagine comparing Ogbah, 24, still on a rookie deal in 2018 making $1.3M who had a very good season before going down with injury (also w/ 70 PFF score) to Carrie, 29 (30 when the season starts) his $8M+ salary this season if kept, who had a terrible 2019 season, and had a 56 PPF score.

Zane Gonzalez...oh, you mean the guy who was 4th in the NFL (2nd in NFC) among kickers in total points last season and almost made the Pro Bowl? Who we drafted in the 7th round only to use a 5th the next year by drafting another K because he wasn't a Dorsey guy?

Those were funny. Please, please....do another one!



He is still overpaid, only he gained ground on production from 2018 to 2019. That's great for him and it's good for the Browns. But how is it a double standard talking about him being overpaid while expecting Carrie's contract to be addressed for the same premise that he is overpaid? Or even all of the players that were cut. Overpaying for players is what Dorsey did here far too much. I, and others, have been rather consistent about that point.

Zane Gonzalez cost us 2+ games. His position needed addressing pronto. I'm not going to wring my hands over letting a kicker that was costing us games go that ended up being very good. Sucks, but we're supposed to wring our hands over a kicker and not talk about cutting Haden so he can be a key cog in a division rival's defense? Or the genius move that brought in Kenny Britt?

The same FA period that brought in Britt also brought in McCourty, Tretter, and Zeitler. Give me a 75% return in FA for expected, long-term starters every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Not saying this was you, but I love how so many people bashed Haden while he was here (up until his last season), and the minute he was let go because he wouldn't restructure his deal he is now a cog in their defense?.......Ok. And yeah, I didn't want Haden to be cut and was upset he was let go. You can add Schwartz not being re-signed as well as a misstep. Please don't begin to paint a picture of their infallibility by me. That is not the case.

Gonzalez needed to be put on IR and his replacement brought in for the remainder of the season. Instead, they outright released him. It was a poor choice.

He was released, I believe. The players whose contracts are expiring are the ones off limits for now. Those 4 guys we just released, they can be signed right now.

.

That's a fair post. I forgot Schwartz was when that FO was on their way in.

I also liked Haden when he was here. I think many got hung up on where he was drafted, and therefore labeled him a bust. Haden was the last of the blue-chip prospects in his draft, and we were sitting there with nobody else to pick but him. He showed flashes of being that shutdown corner, but never really hung onto it (I'd say he had 1 season where he lived up to the hype). He also looks better now because he plays on a defense that can get pressure on the QB. Even still, the decision to cut him was ludicrous. So we saved a couple bucks. Whoopty-hell. Our stash of $ went from a bazillion to a bazillion and 1 dollars.
/rant. Sorry


Anyways, back on topic.... You'll have to excuse my not caring about Zane and what we did/didn't do with him. He's a kicker. We have a kicker now. Would we have won more games this past year if we had Zane instead? I doubt it. Would we have won more games if we had someone other than Zane the year before? 2 games, absolutely. End of worthwhile discussion, imo.

My recollection is that Haden signed a deal in Pitt that was "equal" to what we offered in a re-structure. I think he was ecstatic to move on.

Maybe, but I don't think so. Joe was pretty active in the Cleveland community

You saw him supporting the community and Cleveland teams all the time.

I’m interested to see what happens with Brady and Rivers