I don’t know, I’m just fishing for opinions.

He could be but we know almost nothing about him other than that he impressed a terrible coaching staff late in preseason last year. My money is on Wyatt Teller.

There has to be a reason Chris Hubbard is still a Brown. IMO he makes too much to only be kept as "OL depth". I think maybe he gets a shot at RG in training camp.

Cutting Mitchell would be a big mistake

Its not the topic, but it bugs me that they might consider cutting Mitchell. I think he's our 2nd best CB after Ward.

I haven’t seen any credible report that states we are thinking of cutting him, trading him, or anything else.

Me either.

I dont know enough about him or OL play to gauge it ... but my educated guess is he probably is not

I do not know the answer either, but if not him then who?

--Teller was okay after a rocky start, but we did not ask him to pull and use any athletic traits in that regard.

--Hubbard was our worst graded blocker in the running game.

He can not hold up to a bull rush from an edge player ... wherefore is he going to hold up against a bull rush from a bigger DT?

To me Forbes is our only real option, till (if and when) we add another.

Maybe he can play guard?

Because he was terrible as a RT.

I was replying to cfrs15's post of Jake Trotter's tweet above. Its not like I made it up.

It was only an illustration based on the facts of their cap savings.

Well then it was a really dumb illustration, because I think Mitchell is a good CB. Why would his name be included with some fairly obvious potential cuts like Hubbard and Vernon if it was totally unfounded?

Probably because Berry and Depo were part of a FO that made many such dumb....errr........analytical decisions.

And yet Jake Trotter - who I consider "credible" - retweeted it.

Trotter had some great tape breakdowns. They were awesome and he understands the Xs and Os. His opinions on the team and its personnel have been horrendous, in my opinion. That saddens me because I really liked his breakdowns of actual football plays.

And yet Jake Trotter - who I consider "credible" - retweeted it. [/quote]

Credibility is relevant to the issue.

Is Tretter privy to the teams plans on possible trades ... ect?

If so, then someone should tell the poor man that loose lips sink ships.

Wondering if you're thinking of Jake Burns, at least in terms of tape breakdowns? Maybe not ...

j/c

Mitchell is good...but not McCourty good.

I hope they keep Mitchell and don't do something stupid like King John did with McCourty and trade him away for a 7th Rd pick to a perennial playoff contender...making the pick a late 7th rounder at that. It will be difficult to Trump that mistake.

I think 'they' like Forbes...whether that is as an interior guy (like C even) or OT is TBD.

Whoops. I was. No wonder I was so surprised he now sounds like an idiot? LMAO

Sorry about that.

Man, I feel really dumb about that. I kept wondering how could a guy who was so astute about the game of football now be making such dumb takes over and over again?

Of course, I got the names confused. Very embarrassing. I'm sorry.

Mitchell’s better than Court ...

No biggie, we all do it.

Agreed. I think McCourtey is a below average corner. He was one of the reasons Williams went w/that the deep, deep safety. Not the only reason, but ONE of the reasons.

We did not have a man to man corner on the team. Peppers took terrible angles to the ball and Kinnard was worse. That was such a sucky secondary. Thank God, Dorsey was smart enough to upgrade that group.

Anyway ... to bring it back to a RG discussion, I wonder if we might be interested in the RG from Auburn (who's name escapes me at the moment) in the 2nd round, because I'm not sure the answer is on our roster right now.

Dave, I think this thing w/the OL is way overblown. Once again, our pass blocking was 17th in the entire NFL. That isn't great. But, it's not the worst in the league like some claim. It's about average.

We already spent a lot of money on a RT. I approve of that move.

We almost assuredly will draft a LT or bring in Williams or Peters.

Does our "franchise" qb really need an all-pro at every position to be successful?

I think the Browns better address the linebacker and safety group. We could use a run-stuffing DT. I would also draft an Edge rusher to develop.

This infatuation w/the OL is overblown because some folks are blaming them for Baker's issues. Others...like you...read their garbage and kind of believe it. I have maintained that evaluating how an OL plays is the hardest thing to do for casual fans. Our line was not good, but it was nowhere near as bad as almost everyone says it was.

Vers, by the same token, do you think the FO is overemphasizing the line in general or overemphasizing it in relation to our other needs?

Maybe you're right, but I saw enough of the middle of the line getting caved last year to think we need interior help on the OL, not just on the edges.

I was probably unclear. I wasn't getting on the FO. I loved the move they made to get Conklin. Great move!!!! We needed a RT and we needed to upgrade our run blocking. Conklin fits the bill for both.

We obviously need a new LT. Robinson is gone. Acquiring one is a given.

I'm just saying that you can't fix all issues in a year or two. People rag on Dorsey about some things, but look what he inherited. No qb. Nor WRs. RBs were weak. Corners were bad. Safeties were horrendous. It takes some time.

You don't need all great players along the OL. I think Conklin is a huge signing, bring in a LT and roll w/one of the RG's on the roster.

Gotta get help at LBer and FS. That's mandatory.

But again, I wasn't bashing the FO. I was pointing out that some posters paint an inaccurate picture of things and others believe it because it is very hard for the casual fan to evaluate OL play. They see a qb get sacked or bail the pocket and immediately blame the OL. The line might be the problem on that play, but the qb might have held the ball too long or left a clean pocket. Most fans can't distinguish the differences.

No offense, Dave. But, I don't agree w/that statement at all.

Dave, I could post articles and actual NextGen stats that show that Baker bailed clean pockets and held the ball too long.

In fact, I have already posted a lot of them. They typically get ignored and the personal attacks begin. I'll show them to you.........if you like? And if you promise to not just blow them off.

I think we had issues with inconsistency and a combination of good pass protection where Baker had a lot of time mixed in with some horrendous pass protection that resulted in very quick pressure. How that grades out might be 'average' but when you watch games and rushers are getting through virtually untouched on a plays it sticks in the mind. Those plays happened both up the middle as well as on the edge. Hell I remember plays when Baker was sacked when only 3 or 4 were rushing.

Decent article here: https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-mav...d-they-get-here

Of course - depending on what agenda someone wants to promote, having Sports Illustrated talk about some of Baker's struggles being as a result of the OL might mean they aren't objective.

I think Forbes should be given a honest chance to compete for a starting spot.

j/c:

I am wondering if people actually believe that if other teams provide max protection for the qb at all times?

Did our OL give up pressures? Of course they did.

Could our OL have been better. No doubt about it.

Did Baker contribute to the problems. I say...and the numbers say.......he did.

Do other teams provide a clean pocket all the time. LMAO....No.

Do good OLs give up pressures? Yes, there is no doubt about it.

Can a good qb elevate those around him? Yes....look at Mahomes who had Cam "Freaking" Erving as his LT for part of the season.

We love Myles. Why? Because he pressures the QB. So do guys like Von Miller, Lawson, Donald, Mack, Bosa, Bosa, Atkins, etc, etc. They freaking get paid to do so.

Get this through your heads. ALL QBS GET PRESSURED!!!!

If your OL is ranked in the middle of the pass blocking efficiency rates and was towards the top of the list in providing a winning individual blocking rate of 2.5 seconds.............this should not be a huge issue.

I think it is a huge issue because certain folks want to excuse Baker's poor play by blaming the OL.

To be clear, Baker was at times compromised by poor OL play. Then again, all QBs are.

I say the team was more compromised by Baker's poor play than any other position.

And every Browns fan and poster agrees with you.

LMAO. I guess I'll get called more names because I replied to one of your posts on a discussion forum?

Looks like every thread is going to be about Baker and how "certain folks" still think he's a viable option at QB1 tonight.

BTW, anybody know his QBR from last year? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

To expound.......let's get real here.

Baker was drafted first overall. That should mean that he is a difference maker. A guy who elevates others. A guy who can carry--or at least--uplift the team.

Yet, all I read on here is how bad his OL was. How bad his coaching was.

The numbers say his OL was about average in pass pro.

The coaching thing is weird because Baker was quoted as saying something about how much of a difference coaching can make after Freddie was his OC in 2018. Yet, we all blame that same coach for 2019. Hmmmm.........I don't know. I don't think Freddie did a good job. I actually think he was pretty bad. On the other hand, how is it that the guy who elevated Baker's play in 2018 was the cause for Baker being bad in 2019?

The math does not add up.

I think a good qb can make his teammates look better than they are. I think a bad qb can make his teammates look worse than they are.

I think there are two things at play moving forward.

1. Baker has the arm talent to be a very good qb. He needs to freaking mature. He needs to work on his fundamentals. He does need to learn how to properly execute his drops. He needs to learn to recognize where the blitz is coming from pre-snap. He hopefully will learn to read coverages better, but I doubt it. Perhaps our coaches can compensate for that and let him be a one-read qb?

2. Baker continues to be Baker and the team moves on from him after this year.

I hope number one is true. He has talent. He was the first pick of the draft. I do not like the guy at all, but I am hoping he succeeds.

I have read some things that say the Brown's FO is supporting him, but are holding him accountable. I like that attitude.

Dorsey gave everything to Baker. His choice of coaches. Bringing in stud personnel. I get the strategy of providing your franchise qb the best opportunity, but it was almost like entitlement.

Time to live up to your draft status, Baker.

J/C

These threads often feel like you are tip-toeing through a minefield. The question that is still largely unanswered is who are the options at RG?

Can we all agree that this position is currently unsettled? So, in no particular order who will it be:

1. Forbes
2. Teller
3. Hubbard
4. veteran free agent
5. rookie draft selection
6. UDFA

My preference would be a veteran free agent who has known experience in the zone blocking scheme. Mike Remmers would have fit those criteria but I think he signed with KC.

I'm not inclined to invest a 2nd round pick in a guard. Once you get your tackles and center, the guards job becomes a little easier.

He did sign with the Chiefs.

52.8

J/c

I kinda forget, but how good (well, bad) was Teller last year? Is he strictly a backup type G?

Absolutely.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention - that's been the agenda for a while.

Baker 52.4 QBR

https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

I didn't think he was that bad. He was better than Kush. He's also young, and has potential for growth.


RG is not a concern for me that it seems to be for other folks

Could Drew Forbes be the answer at RG?

I guess it all depends on Forbes QBR...RIGHT?

Mac, can you do me a favor and place your ire where it is deserved? Thanks

Kind of odd don't you think? You post a fact and call it an agenda. Funny how that works.

Now on to the topic at hand.....

I believe people have to think big picture here. The OL works as a unit. A mediocre RG looks worse next to a terrible RT. That same mediocre RG looks better next to a very good RT. The signing of Conklin helps the right side of that unit as a whole. At some point the assets have to be distributed to other units of the team in need of upgrade.

I'm not indicating that I'm happy with the RG position, but as has been mentioned, Rome wasn't built in a day. We have other glaring needs in other units of this team to address. I'm more of the mind set that either Teller will play there or Hubbard will be moved to RG.

The skill set needed to play RG is not as stringent as it is to play the RT position. An example of how this plays out is that many college RT's and LT's project and play G in the NFL. Their skill set isn't on the level to play the OT position in the NFL yet have the skill set to play the RG position well.

I can't say that Hubbard will be the answer at RG. But what I can say is that the fact he couldn't cut it at RT has no meaning in terms of how he will play RG. The range of field you have to cover at RT is far harder to do.

j/c:

The performance of the OL is always a huge part of the conversation in threads that where we are talking about Baker. Folks trot out how horrible the OL is relentlessly. Some say that Baker has no chance. Or, that our OL is the worst in the league.

It makes sense that when judging the OL that Baker is factored into the mix. A qb who holds the ball too long and bails clean pockets will obviously make his OL look worse than it is.

Pit normally you are much better than this.

Don't take something I post and make a snide comment completely out of context. I posted a stat because someone asked for it.

I said that there is an agenda - because for days if not weeks the same unfounded and untrue comments have laced a high number of the same posters posts even when the thread topic is not QB related.... And that is the very definition of having an agenda. Heck we had the same poster even getting digs at Baker when talking about Cam Newton yesterday.

OP this thread - the one about Forbes and the RG position - there is ONE person who took this off topic and talked about the QB. I had a post that stated that the QBR rating and QB discussion was a stretch to bring to this thread and it got removed. SO - the "As for the topic at hand" - place the blame for the distraction where it is deserved.

Do you remember the other day when you and I were discussing the RG position in the Draft forum?

I asked if Teller was the guy that the Browns were so high on. I'm wondering if that guy was actually Drew Forbes? He might be a viable option at RG.

I hope the Browns settle on who their OL starters early on in the process. I started off my coaching career as an OL coach. It was the only open spot on the staff. I learned a lot about OL play and I can tell you w/the utmost certainty that continuity on the OL is imperative.

This is especially true in zone blocking schemes. The guys must move in unison. I have always compared it to synchronized swimming teams or dance/chorus teams. All movements must be coordinated. Thus, it is very important for a starting line to play in cohesion. That takes a lot of time w/a ton of reps. I think last year's coaching staff spent too much time making changes. Hopefully, the new staff will do a better job.

While my experience isn't as vast as yours is, I certainly and fully understand how much continuity matters in terms of the OL. Unlike the DL, those guys play 100% of the snaps together. The zone blocking scheme certainly calls for more movement which in turn calls for their timing as a unit to be more critical.

I guess I could have saved typing all of that by just saying I agree with you.

LOL.......it is huge.

Back to Forbes. Do you--or anyone--remember if it was Teller or Forbes that the Browns were very high on in last year's off-season or pre-season?

I'm starting to think it was Forbes, but I could be wrong about that.

888...My mistake..forgive me, I honestly forgot the smiley face... ...like this one.

I don't wish to derail this thread any more than it already has been. But let's just say if you don't, won't or can't see that there are two sides to this coin posted on this board on a regular basis, then I don't think you're being very objective.

The fact you've decided to give one side of the debate a free pass when they do it and seemingly stalk the other side of it doesn't lend itself to a lot of credibility concerning people having an agenda.

By that point in the season I was a little too disgusted with the situation to even listen to them.

Definitely two sides. But I am going to continue to call out BS when I see it continually posted. When someone else derails the thread and I respond to that post, please address the person that derails it initially as well. You can call me out - but include the other side as you correctly point out. Thanks

It was Drew Forbes, but that was a different group of people, so I don't know how this current FO and coaching staff feels about his future here.

It was Forbes. They cut Robinson, and then resigned him once they could put Forbes on IR without waivers.

j/c,

Drew Forbes is probably the best zone-scheme option on our current roster

Thanks to you and YTown. I thought I might have been mistaken.

Also, good call by Ham for starting this thread. I'm going to try and research Forbes to see what I can learn about him.

My recollection is that it was Forbes then he got hurt.

j/c:

Here is a pre-draft analysis of Forbes.



I like the comments about him being a good fit in a ZBS, his athleticism, and that he played LT in college. Hopefully, he is adding a bit of "good" weight.

I think 1, 2, 3, & 5 will all be in the mix and get a shot. Maybe even 6.
I doubt we make a signing for this spot with so much on the roster right now that will be "good enough".

Having a weakness at RG is mitigated by having it sandwiched between Tretter & Conklin.

The only real question mark for us is LT.

Forbes was 'Prospect X' per Sports Illustrated essentially picking a guy who they thought might be a sleeper, late round pick. I don't recall them doing that before 2019. It'll be interesting to see if they do that again this year.

Teller wasn't here in training camp nor the pre-season. We traded for him right at the 53 man cut down.

I think the Browns like both Teller and Forbes. I think Hubbard sticks until June 1st to allow for spreading out the cap hit. They aren't going to pay Hubbard that much money to "see" if he can play RG. I think he could stick if he restructures tho. JMO

I've been saying that I think our starting RG for this coming season is already on the roster, and the acquisition of Conklin has only given me more confidence. We still have to find our LT, and our RG will be between Tretter and Conklin.

Unless we're talking about a late-round draftee or a guard is in free-fall in the draft, I really want us to put our energy into landing that LT and bolstering several positions on the D.

Concerning Forbes...I went back and watched some video of his senior season and some of his 2019 preseason video as a Browns rookie.

First, Forbes senior season at Southeastern Missouri State...he was so much better than the competition and dominated whomever teams put in front of him, it was hard not to recognize that he was a the best offensive lineman on the field and had the potential to be a good Pro prospect.

His size is 6-5 and 305, ideal numbers for a mobile OG, which is what Forbes is. He moves well and is light on his feet, strong, though he will need to do more in the weight room to deal the strength of the defenders he will face in the NFL.

He has promise imo as long as he works to get better. He very well could develop into the Browns answer at OG, if the Browns coaches are willing to allow him enough time to improve.

Pro Day Results:

#1 tie...40 yds: 4.95
#10...bench: 28
#11...vert jump: 30.5
#12...brd jump: 107 in.
#5...3 cone: 7.65#14...20 yd shuttle: 4.70
#5...10 yd split: 1.73

link

jmo, mac

Those combine/draft #s tell me that if he isn't already, then he at least should be able to get to a place where his strength is no longer such a liability.

He was #10 in the bench, which means he was better (in that measure*) than a lot of other OL coming out that year.

*Yes, I know bench strength is very different than playing strength. Just trying to use the info that's in front of me.

I think that leverage is far more important than arm strength on the OL.

I mean you can't be weak by any stretch, but it's your leverage where you draw the bulk of your advantage from.

Understood, that's why I put the little caveat at the end. That said, I'm also looking at/thinking about his high/broad jump #s. Still not leverage, but at least those poke at the lower-body explosiveness of the athlete.

j/c,

FA Josh Kline, former Vikings RG would be a very good insurance policy in the event that Drew Forbes is not ready or unable to lock down the RG position.

the Bench isn't so much a test of pure strength as it is muscular endurance. Yes, you have to be strong enough in the first place, and there is a correlation between raw strength and muscular endurance, but it isn't linear. You can be crazy strong but have low muscular endurance.

Leverage is more a technique issue; it's a tool in the toolbox. You need to have the bend & balance to make the most of of it.... it ends up being like a force multiplier for that strength.

Neither is really more important than the other... you can find cases where guys get by on one or the other, but the best case is when you have both, obviously.

I agree .. he’s got experience as a starter (even if he wasn’t good) and knows Stefanski’s stuff

He actually grades out pretty good in pass protection (credited with 2 sacks in 2019), and was only credited with 3 penalties last season.

He doesn't get alot of movement in run blocking, but in the zone-scheme, graining leverage is more important.

Starters:

LT - TBD
Bitonio
Tretter
Teller
Conklin

G/C backup - Forbes
Swing T - Lamm

Others in the mix that I think they "like":

Colby Gossett - G
Willie Wright - C

There is room to add a vet and/or draft pick (beyond the liekly LT)

JMO

Thanks for the info!

Yay, me!

I like that the “cons” seem to be all coachable or strength training. Both doable.

I don't know it is so much they like him over they don't know all that much about him. He doesn't have much pro tape.

He is going to go to camp, when it opens in 2021.

Thats quite optimistic of you ... don't you think?

I hope this received as an educational post. Leverage is important in almost everything,including blocking. If anything, leverage might be more important in base [man] blocking than in zone.

Here are some of the biggest differences between Man and Zone blocking.

--In man, you are responsible for a man. You block the guy you are responsible for. That depends on the play call. Sometimes it's the man right over you. Other times it can be a guy down the line [gap or angle blocking.] Other times it can be a guy on the second level, such as a LBer or S.

--Zone is about blocking an area. You are responsible for a space. On running plays, the play-side dudes have one set of responsibilities and the backside typically just area block, or seal off the back side. Often, the linemen are asked to put a shoulder into the defender that another blocker is going to block and then go to the second level and seal off an area or space.

--This is very generic, but Man/Base blocking requires more strength and leverage, while zone blocking requires more agility, athleticism, and technique. I will add that great technique is important to both.

It is. I actually think more like 2021 t0 23. New Orleans is starting to explode. Carnival had over a million people in the Quarter. Corona was there then, and all those people were in close quarters, rubbing up against each other.

I might add, the number of young people in dire need is increasing. Obviously older people are at more risk because, well, they are older. We are all going to die of something.

The fact more and more people in their 20's and 30's are experiencing serious complications has me very concerned.


I could very well be wrong, but my feeling is this isn't going away anytime soon. There is a good chance we will find a vaccine, but that is near two years out. You have to test for a year or two before you just start injecting people with something you aren't 99.9% sure is going to work and not complicate matters.

Just watch New Orleans. See what happens there. It's going to come to every city and town.


There will be no football this season. We have bigger fish to fry.

Agree there is a possibility of no football - or no football with fans ... we'll see.

I don't know about New Orleans unless they simply don't have the means to test? 1700 cases in Louisiana - 30,000 in NY. I don't see how they would become the epicenter. But until we have more data - anything is possible for sure.

Regarding the OL and Forbes - I believe we are in a position to not have to take OT with the first pick of the draft next year, to me that is a great thing as drafting a pick weighted for need is not optimal.