It’ll be interesting to see where Cam Newton and Clowney end up

An eye-opening list as we ponder the 2020
@NFLDraft
.

#1 overall picks: 2010-2015

'15: Jameis Winston - free agent
'14: JD Clowney - free agent
'13: Eric Fisher - Chiefs LT
'12: Andrew Luck - retired
'11: Cam Newton - free agent
'10: Sam Bradford - free agent

https://twitter.com/AndrewSiciliano/status/1242840969478721536

j/c...

I can't think why a team would sign Cam unless he is a back up - maybe somewhere with a mobile QB who might get dinged up? But he'd have to be on Case Keenum type money.

Baltimore?

I think Clowney was asking for too much money. He has played well at times and flashes that freakish athletic ability, but he has largely been inconsistent. I remember the Colts' RT absolutely abusing him in the 2018 playoffs.

Cam? I think it is about health. When healthy, he is clearly a better qb than some of the league's starters. I thought Chicago would have been a good spot for him.

Right now, I think the Chargers are the obvious match. But again, not if he isn't healthy.

I would not bring in Cam to be a backup. The ego is too massive and he would be an ongoing distraction because folks would be peppering the team w/questions any time the starter struggled at all.

Bell is a decent player IMO

What are Cincy's other big time signings?

Did I miss something?

Blake Bell is leaving KC for Dallas. With Witten gone it might be a good opportunity for him.

Since free agency began the #Bengals have reportedly added the following players:

DT D.J. Reader
LB Josh Bynes
S Vonn Bell
CB Mackensie Alexander
CB LeShaun Sims
CB Trae Waynes

G Xavier Su’a-Filo
WR Mike Thomas

https://twitter.com/BengalsMarisa/status/1242889664115154947

Why are the Bengals now allowed to sign free agents? I liked it better when they just sat out free agency and re-signed their own crappy players to bad contracts.

Armageddon has changed everything.

Over the past five offseasons, the Bengals invested a total of $49.98M on unrestricted free agents that didn't previously play for the team.

This offseason, they've spent $127M+ on such free agents already.

A new and welcomed approach in Cincinnati.

https://twitter.com/FieldYates/status/1242901739931602953

The Burrow Effect

Exactly .. they think their window is about to open

I like Burrow, but if that is their thinking it's a little presumptive.

Marvin Lewis must be scratching his head wondering what happened .... *L* ...

If Burrow is bad then they never had a window anyway. They are doing the smart thing and building knowing they only have him cheap for four years. You can’t waste any of them.

I heard that it was TE Blake Bell ?

I believe he went to Dallas.

The Bengals were never the kind of franchise to pay out big $$$ to other teams free agents
Up.until a few years ago they drafted pretty decent and paid their players.
It worked.they made the playoffs for what 4 6 years in a row ?
But lately their drafts have been bad
I think thats why they are spending $$$ at a alarming rate.
Let's be real their past 10 years has been better
Than the Browns last 10 years .

Thanks

Can a team handle the sideshow CN brings with him? Don't want it here. He can be incredible, but can't get out of his own way. And he seems to be his own issue as far as self-distracting and self-destruction. Honestly, can't play ball without the set indulgent ego trip spotlighting himself. Games are hard enough to win without the extra lifting.
Pass.

Don’t worry bard. Cam isn’t coming to Cleveland.

I agree w/you, but have you ever considered those same things when looking at our QB? LOL.........he's even worse.

Man, get off baker’s ass for a day or two. You know I like you, but c’mon.

Are you going to tell me that Baker did not make more off-the-field noise than Cam did these past two years?

I know you like Baker, but it's not wise to call out other guys for off-the-field stuff when Baker is your qb.

And I'll post wth I like, bro.

I'll take Baker's antics over Cam's any day. I'm convinced Cam is actually an alien. However, I do think he's cute when he dresses like Whitney Houston.

Yes, post what you like, for sure.

He wasn’t as bad in 2019 as you, at times, suggest he was. And I know you’ve been honest, and objective, about the overall picture of how BM played season.

I think he was better than his numbers showed. Several of his INTs were not his fault. I watched the nfl network replay of the Seattle game today.
Baker threw a pick, after our guy was bumped by their DB. Just one example of several INTs he got dinged for TY that weren’t totally hus fault.
I also think he has to work to get better, & I’m unsure of his ability to read a D, post or pre-snap, but I still believe in him.

I just think sometimes you go out of our way - and not just sometimes lol - to bash baker.

Bro, I wasn't talking about his on-field performance. Although, I believe he was maybe the worst qb in the league considering all the tools he had at his disposal. That's for another day. LOL

Anyway, I was talking about all the drama. The Hue trashing, the Daniel Jones trashing, the Duke trashing, the media trashing, the Tony Grossi thing when the original question was actually a good one, the qb guru trashing, the reporters not being athletic enough to play checkers even though some fo those guys are in the NFL HOF, the Rex Ryan trashing, the crap w/Cowherd, his wife saying that Brown's fans are front runners and idiots, him challenging a fan to a fight before a game, the constant comments about outside distractions when he is inviting him, etc, etc

The dude is constantly making news for the wrong reasons, lamp.

Now, I won't get on you for defending him. Opposing opinions are a good thing and I think you are a great guy. But bro, I will voice my opinion no matter what anyone says.

As much as you want it to be true, Baker doesn't have any character concerns.

Baker vs Cam Newton...biggest difference last season, Baker answered the bell 16 times in 2019..

...Newton started 2 games in 2019.

Baker has none of the issues Newton has...

Going to disagree with you slightly - I think there are concerns. Including how he accepts and moves on from a bad year - will he embrace the new set up and accept QB coaching?

His character off the field - he isn't a PC guy and never will be. It gives the haters a lot of ammunition and they stretch it and start fabricating half true statements. . . take the Duke comments that were discussed ad-naseum - it's not accurate in any respect to say Baker trashed Duke but here we are. Some folks are still just butt hurt that Bake planted a flag, they've even admitted as much.

j/c:

The following comes from a PFF article that analyzes the highest-paid FA contracts. You can read the entire article here: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-analyzing-t...was-it-worth-it

Here are the parts regarding the Browns:

Reporting the facts about his antics doesn't make you a hater. Only in the past ten years or so has stating facts about a person been given a negative label.

No - facts don't. But as I clearly posted, saying Baker trashed Duke is simply not true. It was discussed in great, great, great depth. And as I said then and do now, I would have preferred a more PC answer - but Baker didn't trash anyone in that comment. The Daniel Jones comment was the same - not a good take - but he did not trash DJ.... if you wanted to push it you could say that Baker slighted DJ, but he then reached out directly and there was no ill will that I can remember being reported by the Jones.

Pit - your overly protective defense of other posters is admirable - but c'mon

Baker didn't trash Duke. But it was a glimpse into the mindset that would otherwise plague him throughout the season.

You can change the adjectives if you like. But that's more about perception than anything. Everyone certainly does have their own opinions. But from where I sit, far more people look for excuses than accountability when it comes to Baker.

You can see it as "not being PC" if you like. But surely you should be able to see how others could see that same thing as being an azz hat.

I'd say that's pretty rampant speculation. You might be right. I'd say if you want to speculate like that, then it'd be reasonable to start speculating on whether that was a reaction to or affected by how the HC conducted and lead the team?

As to the original comment and what I responded to - it's just one more example of someone basically stretching something to a point of a lie. Was the Duke comment ideal? Absolutely not. Was it trashing Duke - no. It gets old quick.

We can quibble over wording, such as "trash." But, let's look at how this began. A poster said this:



I countered w/something like: have you looked at our own qb?

Think about all the talk that Baker's comments on Duke created? On here. Locally. And even nationally.

I think a lot of the things Baker said caused distractions and unwanted attention. And I am not going to stop talking about it just because one poster dedicates almost every single post he makes on this forum to trashing my character.

Baker being an azz hat doesn't mean that he was trashing a guy. If you think something he says or does - like planting a flag, grabbing his crotch, getting drunk as a college student, talking about other players contracts or draft position - makes him an idiot ... that's fine. Say it. I won't disagree. Saying he's trashing a player(s) when he is not ... Not okay.

I think Baker and Cam were destructive, but each in their own way. I think it's a matter of which destructive you prefer. Cam seems like a very selfish, me first person. Baker, for all his warts, doesn't come across like that to me. He comes across like someone who is trying to lead but failing miserably at it. He could have felt that his comments about Duke were showing leadership. But he's young, immature, and a little arrogant. I think there's still time for him to mature. With Cam, at this point you are probably getting what you are getting.

Kind of a similar discussion with Baker and Case as far as playing. There is still hope for Baker to play better and mature, and I think people are banking on that hope because if it is realized, the sky is the limit.

In terms of whether you felt he trashed Duke and I felt that wasn't a good term, it doesn't matter. We agree on the general point that he shouldn't have done it.

For what it's worth, I don't like Cam either. I always thought he was a selfish, attention-seeking person. Never liked his character.

Anyway, maybe we can move past 888's obsession and discuss other things?

What did you think of PFF's analysis on the Hooper and Conklin signings?

I'll only make one more comment on the subject. Sometimes people can trash a person by doing it in a blatant fashion. It's clear and direct. Some can do it in a more subtle manner rather than overtly. How one perceives that is simply a matter of interpretation.

j/c:

Suh is staying in TB. The Bucs might end up being pretty good this year. Lot's of talent at WR and TE. Their D was in the top 5 for the last 3/4ths of the season. And they now have a smart qb who is a great leader.

j/c

I get tired of the constant regurgitation of "Baker ran from the cops." Yes. He tried to run. As a drunk college student, out on the streets, after a night in the bars. He was walking, not driving. He admitted his mistake. He accepted punishment. More than 2 years have passed, yet it is mentioned in every Baker Thread. Nothing similar, involving law enforcement, or drinking has occurred since he has become a Brown. Why keep bringing it up, except as a hater comment. Bringing up Manziel's drinking was understandable. He continued with alcohol problems after joining the team, but Baker has not.

I am not a Baker fan, nor hater. I would have liked to have seen the Browns sign Brady, and let Baker sit and learn. Didn't happen. Baker is still our Quarterback, he got his punishment for the "running from the cops" incident. Judge him on what he has done as a Brown, not as what he did as a college student.

j/c...

This slipped through the cracks yesterday.

Apparently, the #Browns will keep Chris Hubbard around since the team restructured his contract, according to the NFL's official transactions wire.

Exact terms aren't available.

https://twitter.com/brentsobleski/status/1243183688759808000

So many people make one mistake and it follows them the rest of their life. That's life. If Baker takes care of business (on and off the field), that echo from fans (or haters) will soften with time.



I think signing Brady would have been a mistake. Brady is regressing. The numbers show that. I think you have to give Baker a continuous opportunity to get better. Any interruption in that is the wrong approach IMO, in particular for a #1 pick.

in case you don't trust Field...

She just can't resist putting that last little jab in there.

I think keeping Hubbard at a reduced cost is a very solid move by the FO. I like it a lot.

And you think we trust Mary Kay? lol. And the end of her tweet.. jesus, Mary Kay.

Good news about the restructure!!

ALso ... anyone have info on Brown?

Brown, who spent last season with the Giants and Dolphins, is in his third NFL season out of SMU. Originally signed as an undrafted free agent by the Giants in 2018, Brown has appeared in four career games. He appeared in one game in 2019 for the Giants in addition to spending time on New York’s practice squad. He was signed to the Dolphins’ active roster and appeared in three games for Miami.

Browns sign depth center Evan Brown. 60.6 #PFF grade, 38 snaps, 0 sacks allowed, 0 penalties.

In the Cleveland Browns announcement that they had officially signed defensive tackle Andrew Billings, they also noted that they had signed center Evan Brown. Brown gives the Browns a true center to put behind J.C. Tretter. He spent his rookie season with the New York Giants after signing as an undrafted free agent out of Southern Methodist University. Last season, he was with the Miami Dolphins where he appeared in three games.

Brown came out of SMU as a great athlete for the center position, which has him in the exact same mold as Tretter when he entered the NFL out of Cornell. Tretter not only fits the wide zone scheme the Browns are going to utilize, he provides some extras that make him that much more attractive. He is a player that can pull, being utilized in running schemes that ask him to get out in front of a play as a blocker. It also enables the Browns to use him in some creative pass protections where they move the pocket dramatically.

Brown isn't quite as agile as Tretter, but he has a lot of the same athletic traits that would make a team running this type of offense like him. Brown won't turn 24 until September, so if he can show them enough to stick on the roster and thrive, he could be someone they develop within their system for a few years and potentially take over for Tretter when he leaves, getting an excellent mentor along the way.

In the mean time, Brown provides them badly needed depth at center. Teams usually want to carry three players into a game that can snap. They've mentioned the possibility that Drew Forbes and Wyatt Teller could snap, but this gives them another dedicated center that's only focused on playing the pivot.

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/news/cleveland-browns-sign-center-evan-brown

Thanks Grateful ... we did need a backup C. Let’s hope he’s the answer there

Top tier backup money. Good stuff.

I always kinda liked Dennard

I agree. He will get a shot at RG. If he doesn't take the job, he offers valuable back-up depth.

Not a sexy signing, but a very solid move.

The Ravens will not sign Michael Brockers as previously reported after being unable to come to an agreement on terms of a contract.

@Ravens

I heard he had an ankle injury. He's a pretty good player. Glad they didn't get him.

Free agent DT Michael Brockers is heading back to the #Rams, per agent @ScottCasterline. After it falls apart in Baltimore, Brockers lands back home in LA.

@RapSheet

Wow, he went back to the Rams

j/c...

That’s a good signing .. Wolfe’s been productive

Ravens have killed the offseason.

Yes - they signed a bunch of old Fee Agents and lost Marshall Yanda. Killing it - right.

Correction - traded for old player and signed old free agents.

I think they have improved their team and they went 14 and 2 last year. They have the reigning league MVP and a stable organization.

They are definitely trying to win now.

they always do a nice job with the lines IMO

They are looking good going into the season.

Great now I have to find a way to root for Wolfe while rooting against his team. I also need to pray for his family since they are surrounded by Browns AND Steeler fans lol

Jeremy Fowler
@JFowlerESPN
·
25m
Ronald Darby has agreed to a one-year, $4-million deal with the Redskins, per source.

Wolfe is a local guy and a class act. Wish we had him.

And imagine, people thought the ravens were going to stink last year.

.

Yes he is. He and jamin pastore donated $1,000,000 to Beaver Local Schools back in January.

Official cap space by teams 1-11 (includes moves officially made):
1. HOU: 49,257,819
2. NYJ: 45,016,813
3. CLE: 43,703,760
4. LAC: 37,553,266
5. TEN: 32,509,301
6. WAS: 31,468,435
7. DET: 31,369,450
8. DEN: 29,819,797
9. DAL: 28,560,313
10. PHI: 27,868,177
11. IND: 26,863,345

Official cap space by team (12-23)
12. BUF: 26,539,939
13. JAX: 22,808,288
14. MIA: 22,682,552
15. CHI: 21,798,5871
16. NYG: 19,556,709
17. CAR: 16,832,122
18. LAR: 16,357,084
19. LV: 15,285,765
20. SF: 15,064,239
21. TB: 14,836,167
22. ARI: 14,383,375
23. CIN: 13,657,810

Official cap space by team (teams 24-32):
24. BAL: 13,513,779
25. GB: 12,966,433
26. MIN: 12,495,443
27. SEA: 11,317,846
28. NO: 9,237,537
29. PIT: 8,667,814
30. ATL: 7,530,188
31. NE: 891,775
32. KC: 177

https://twitter.com/FieldYates/status/1244595644091846656

Our cap space is a mess.

??? was that sarcasm???

Love it and no time to go stupid cause we got some bigtime 2nd contracts coming up in the near future!

Yes, it was sarcasm over what has been a popular myth that has been perpetrated on the board. I was talking to another one of our posters via text. I said the same thing when he spoke of trading for Trent Williams. I told him the huge contract he would demand would be an obstacle down the road when he mentioned us having so much cap space.

I would say calling it a popular myth is overstating it. Just because one or two people say something doesn’t mean people believe it. I think that most people know that we aren’t in cap hell.

It was more of a generalization. Breaking things down into categories we certainly had bright spots. Better talent, good in cap space. But for those who wished not to address things in terms of specifics, a general mess sounded better to them.

Lol KC’s cap space is funny to look at

NFLTradeRumors.co
@nfltrade_rumors
Colts Signing CB T.J. Carrie https://bit.ly/3dCFdOd

I would be curious to see who said we are in cap hell. And why they think that.

That being said, since our cap space is NOT a mess, I really wouldn't go crazy this season. We spent quite a bit over the salary cap last season with little to show. I really wouldn't spend too much more this offseason in order to save our cap space.

Or if we do, perhaps more releases/trades are in our future.

Me too.

I can think of a WR that can be released next year with no dead cap money they will free up a substantial sum to begin re-signing some of corner pieces. If need be

Me too.

Who?

Me three.

OBJ, can be released or traded before 2021 season and have zero dead money on cap. I think we can even trade him in2020 and only have about 4 Mill dead cap

OBJ

I would not approve of getting rid of OBJ. This team has a ton of cap space and is in need of talented players.

Definitely wouldn't be a fan of cutting him for nothing in return.

Generally I agree with that, however if push comes to shove and say a cornerstone of the defense ( whoever you may think that is) needs to be signed , I'm taking about any other position over a WR.

And yeah, a trade is a better way than a direct release.

If it's another year of injuries (would it be 4 years running?), underwhelming performance, and distractions.....it should be an easy decision, IMO.

It sucks, the guy will only be 28 at the end of this season and he is extremely talented but there is alot of other stuff that comes with him, unfortunately. Hopefully this is a rebound year.

I think a lot of people just don't like OBJ. I have seen various trade speculation and talk about how he was a distraction. I don't think he was a distraction. Shoes? Watch? LMAO......the players don't care about that crap.

I do think Baker's mouth was a distraction. I also think he better play a lot better than he did this past year. The combination of his poor play and constant drama is not good for the team.

I still have hope that he plays better and learns to stop saying dumb and distracting things, but it's time to do it. Now!

Baker's mouth is a distraction? Please . The agenda is thick in that post.

I think he has already shown improvement here, his silence about Grossi and the midget comment was deafening.

That's one anyway... ore need to follow.

Some make excuses to claim one is a distraction while they make excuses why the other one is not a distraction. The have your cake and eat it too gang.

You nailed it.

I know. #bakerbestqbever

I haven’t seen anyone say those exact words. I was talking about people (or maybe person) who think our cap is a mess. I don’t know who has said that but I have seen it posted on here. Sorry if my word choices added to any confusion.

My point remains. Just because someone says something that is not true doesn’t mean that it’s a popular myth. I think most of us realize we are fine when it comes to the cap.

Said no one on this board...ever.

In those exact words? No. But then look at who I addressed that to and do your best to think real hard.

I dunno about all that.... but for me, he's a beast WR that is at the front end of his prime years. He managed to put up 1k yards despite being dinged all year and playing within a dumpster fire of an offense with a QB that regressed. I'm also not quite ready to slap the 'injury-prone' label on him, but I can understand someone's POV that is.

Yes, he was disappointing last year, but so was just about everyone, and the main reason(s) were not within his control.

Yes, he's a diva... he's an elite NFL WR. This shouldn't be a shock.

I think the shoes/watch/etc WOULD have been a distraction if our coaching staff didn't eclipse all that with their own ish.

Your attempts to argue with someone about things that were never said are uncanny.

It's going to be hard to keep Baker Mayfield, Myles Garrett, and Denzel Ward without OBJ or Jarvis Landry being off the team or taking a pay cut.

I agree, which is why our window is now. We need to get it right.

I guess is Baker sucks again we can pay everyone because we won't need to pay the QB.

I don't think players on the team care about shoes and a watch. I do think they care about some of the things Baker said.

But, somehow saying OBJ caused distractions is talking football and saying Baker caused distractions is having an agenda.

And y'all just let it go. Pure Football.

j/c,

Question, when did OBJ become a FA?

Thanks in advance...

Thinking something doesn't make it so.

I'll kinda phrase it a little differently. The watch/shoe thing could've been a symptom of the real problem, not a problem in itself. I'm half expecting all these things (if someone wants to call them distractions, fine... I'm kinda meh on that) to magically disappear now that there's an adult at the HC spot.

That's based on prediction and not fact. We're back again this year with a HC who has limited experience as an OC. We all certainly hope things will turn out differently this time but there's nothing of substance to base that on.

What about next year isn’t based on a prediction and is based on facts ...

last years facts have nada to do with what will unfold next year ... all except the FACT we whooped them once ... *L* ...

Seriously ... everything about next year is an unknown ... will obj be hurt all next year ... will mg go out of character and coco puffs again and be out for 6 games .... will Lamar stay healthy all year ... will Kev be bettor than Freddie (I’ll take that bet if u wanna make one .. and I’ll give u GREAT ODDS ... *L* ... ) ...

ITS ALL PREDICTION CONCERNING NEXT YEAR ...

Claiming "now that there's an adult at the HC spot" is a very silly thing to say with zero evidence to support it. Even you know that.

since 2021 or possibly April 1st...lol

So u wanna take the be then ... i didn’t think so ...

I'm not quite sure what "take the be" means, but I'll take it to mean the other option. No, I prefer the "none of the above" option until I see some evidence. Like you, I've been watching this clown show since 1999 and have learned enough to not just jump to conclusions based on zero evidence.

People claimed nobody could be worse than each coach we've had. The latest example of that was the "Nobody can be worse than Hue". Then Freddie came along. Now people are saying that "Nobody can be worse than Freddie". I'm not sure how many times people need to keep wrongly repeating themselves until they decide that a wait and see attitude may be the best approach moving forward.

There is no doubt that 'Nobody was worse than Hue.'

That's not the way the board was reading only a few months ago.

Bet ... u don’t wanna take the bet ...

I NEVER said no one can be worse than hue ... EVER ...

No way Kev’s not bettor than Freddie ... NOT A SHOT ... put your money where your mouth is ... ill even give u great odds ...

Freddie forgot how to run an O and how to call plays .. the bars as low as it gets with Freddie ... not only did he suck but his D coordinator wasn’t any better and apparently Monken was a token hire ... no one still knows exactly what his role was ...

Did u not watch last year? ...

In 18 Freddie made hue look like crap ... in 19 Freddie looked worse than hue ... go figure ... *L*

I didn't think I said anything all that outlandish, but what you said is pretty fair.

I'm not sure if you don't read or your comprehension is lacking. I made it quite plain in saying I'm not making a prediction or guess either way.

What part of that did you have a problem understanding?

I understand completely .... u think i read most of what u post ... ... i used too now it seems all u want to do is go down every single rabbit hole on the path and then just beat that hole to death with inane arguments with others ... not jiggy with that and its all u do anymore ... can’t wait for your response to this ... *LOL* ....

it was real simple but even something as easy as this goes way over your head ... all u had to do was say NO ... case closed ...

Edit - Fake news

I didn't state anything to bet on. "put your money where your mouth is".

See, my mouth isn't the one that was shooting out BS. I only said I'll wait and see. Do you want to bet that I won't do that?

You can comprehend that I would have had to have made a claim one way or the other to "put my money where my mouth is", right? No, you can't see that. Because you just want to run yours.

The San Francisco 49ers have released offensive lineman Mike Person, the team announced. Person started 14 games last season for the reigning NFC champions and started 30 contests in his two-year San Francisco stint

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001...n-to-1year-deal

Cody Kessler is looking for a new team as well. Hmmm .....

Clowney drops asking price to $17-18m.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28982069/sources-jadeveon-clowney-drops-asking-price-17m-18m

Hue could only dream about winning as many games in Cleveland as FK did.

My boy had a wee bit more talent than Hue did ... entirely different situations ... hue had no chance to win his first two years where as my boy had all the talent in the world around him ... i still can’t believe how stupid Freddie got In one off season ...

I think he was just overwhelmed with everything and that stifled his creativity and his ability to effectively prepare week to week.

He really didn't strike me as a leader of men at all. His post game speeches were uninspiring.

No doubt. However, Hue won ONE game in TWO years...and that one at the gift of a UDFA's fingertip. That is epic-ally bad...unprecedentedly bad...incomparably bad. That is a record that may never be approached...let alone broken. No one has ever done that bad. He was at the helm...he was in the lead chair...he was a disaster.

The FK 180 was mind-boggling...he absolutely STOPPED doing what he did the prior year. It was/is like a Twilight Zone episode.

The two QB rooms he had consisted of the rats back up and 5 others that never did diddly and i am not even sure if any of them our on rosters at the moment a mere 3 and 4 years later ... oh wait ... Kizer’s on the Raiders roster ... ...

Saying hue was worse than Freddie based off records is why: STATS ARE FOR ... u know the rest ... *L* ...

Rumor has it that Tampa might be interested in Trent Williams to protect Brady's blindside. Smart move if they can pull it off to have a 6-time Pro Bowl LT protecting Brady's blindside for 2-3 years and would be an immediate upgrade to an offensive line that allowed Winston to throw for 5300 yds in 2019. With the weapons Brady now possesses, upgrading the protection for the next 2-3 years on the left side is brilliant move if they can make it.

Too bad the analytic FO doesn't see the value of adding a 6-time Pro Bowler, who's only 31, instead of taking a 50/50 chance draft pick at LT with so many glaring holes on defense that could be better served with that #10 pick rather than on a LT. If Tampa pulls the string on the trade, our FO will be kicking themselves in the butt all season long for not pursuing Williams while they watch that well oiled Tampa offense perform every week.

I understand the need for a LT but the Browns offense (at least) is built to win now with the current members and the FA additions during this off season - providing Mayfield performs. Rolling the dice on an unproven rookie LT when you can get a 6-time Pro Bowler now is a crap shoot at a vital offensive position they shouldn't be taking - but we'll see! Hope I don't have to say "I told you so."

First off...won/loss is a record...not a stat.

Hue won ONE game in two years bro...ONE. You should be able to win more than ONE game in two years by playing with any QB.

We aren't talking about a HC that couldn't get beyond 3-4 wins a year with a terrible QB room...we are talking about winning ONE freaking game in two years...and that due to Jamie Meder's fingernail on a missed FG at the end of the game.

Denver beat us last year with a guy who had never started a game in the NFL...maybe who even never had taken a snap in a real game. It is possible - and permitted - to win games in the NFL with a bad QB room. Not saying have a winning record...not saying make the playoffs...but certainly to win more than ONE game in TWO years.

Lastly, I didn't say Hue was worse than FK based off records (bolded above)...what I am saying is that Hue was worse than any coach in the history of the NFL. Period...you are what your record says you are.

Well then don’t forget Oakland where in one year he had more wins than Freddie did last year with about 50% of the talent Freddie had ....

QB wasn’t Hue’s only talent depleted unit ... pretty much every unit was brutal under him ... not that it mattered with the qb’s we had but look at the wr’s we had his two years ... Kenny Britt had by far the best career of any of them ... *L* ... and who did our crappy QB’s have to hand the ball off too ... and who was blocking for those backs ...

Hue stunk .. no doubt but my boy was even worse and that pains me to say ...

I/m out .. last words all yours ...

I agree. Hue coached a team through a two year tear down. I didn't think he was a good coach by any means, although he was a very good coordinator at one time. But Freddie had no clue. His success came from running Haley's offense.

And his failure was because he ditched Haley's offense. Because, as cfrs15 said to me, you can't be a "genius" if you're running someone else's offense. Freddie's demise was due to sheer hubris on his part, IMO.

You know...I think that is spot on. He was rather smug for a newbie...and his stubbornness was only matched by Hue's incompetence. Being a Browns fan can be very painful.

j/c:

So, Hue is the worst coach ever because his team won only 1 game in two years, but the FO was awesome for assembling a team that won only 1 game in two years.

Pure genius.

Btw........I'm not going to respond to the FO/Hue subject again on this thread. Maybe we can move on and talk about free agency in a Free Agency thread?

I say rolling the dice on an oft injured 31 year old LT who wants $20+ million a year is as big or bigger gamble than some of the rookies. Williams would be better short term, if he's healthy. But that salary AND picks for a guy who averages about 12 games a year is questionable at best.

The Browns are in a tough spot at that position.

Personally, I would not go after Williams. Too expensive and he seems to be a bit of a head-case. On the other hand, it's gotten very hard to evaluate offensive linemen coming out of college in recent years. Spending the 1oth pick on a LT is risky as can be.

No easy answers here.

S Randall to LV Raiders.

Let's clear up a couple of misconceptions about Trent Williams. First of all, he's been a Pro Bowl LT 7 times straight from 2012 to 2018. The 9-year veteran is clearly considered the best LT in the NFL.

Discounting 2019 because of his hold out, Williams missed 13 games between 2015-2018 (4-years) but contrary to some beliefs, Williams is not an oft injured player. In 2015, Williams missed zero games and was named to his 4th straight Pro Bowl. In 2016, Williams missed 4 games mid season for violation of the leagues substance abuse program (not an injury) and was named to his 5th straight Pro Bowl even with missing 4 games. In 2017, Williams injured his knee in week 6 and missed games 7 & 8. He started and played in weeks 9 & 10 but aggravated the injury. He sat out week 11 but played weeks 12 & 13 before going on IR the remaining 3 games of the season after the Skins dropped to 5-8 with no chance for the playoffs. Even with missing 6 games in 2017, Williams was named to his 6th straight Pro Bowl. In 2018, Williams missed 3 games with a severe hand injury in weeks 8,9,& 10 yet still made his 7th consecutive Pro Bowl.

As far as injuries go, Williams has only missed 9 games in 4 years due to injury with 6 of those games happening in a single season but made the Pro Bowl each of those seasons. The oft injured claim on Williams is bogus considering he actually missed a total of 3 games in 3 years due to injury outside of 2017 and the suspension year.

That said, thinking that drafting an unproven rookie in the top 10 is a better move than having a 7-time Pro Bowl tackle who's only 31 with a limited injury history is without merit.

Now, the driving force against Williams would be his contract extension demands and what the Browns are willing to pay and/or give up to get a much needed LT that would have an immediate upgrade to the offense. The alternative is to draft a rookie at a lower price with a 50/50 chance of making it and for sure a question mark on the offense the entire year. Like I said earlier, outside of LT, the Browns offense is a playoff caliber offense today if Mayfield can return to his rookie year performance. LT is the most critical piece missing and the Browns have to decide to either roll the dice on an unproven rookie or go all in at LT with Williams.

As each day ticks away, I believe the asking price for Williams goes down. I also believe that the Redskins cannot go into the draft without knowing if their LT position is addressed or not. Williams knows this and is why his manager is pushing so hard for a trade deal. The bottom line for the Browns are whether they want the best LT in football or if they are content to go with an unproven rookie. Keep in mind that the rookie is going to cost the Browns somewhere between 19-22 million at the number 10 pick. Since most 1st round draft pick contracts are guaranteed, the investment is that price no matter what. Now you get to spread that out over 4 years and you get a 5th year option but there's only a 50/50 chance the draftee is viable and most of the contract is front loaded with signing bonuses so the cost is heavy for year 1. Williams is going to cost I believe between 17-18 million and would be very close to what the Browns will have to lay out the first year for an unproven rookie. Williams is a 7-time Pro Bowler so there's obviously better value and a whole lot less risk. The money issue doesn't really come into effect until years 2, 3, and 4. If, and that's a big if, the rookie pans out then you made a great move and saved about 30-35 million. If it doesn't, then you have not only lost the original 19-22 million - you have to go find another LT on top of that original cost not to mention the effect the poor move makes on the teams W-L record. Now the cost risk is becoming extremely comparable with what it would cost Williams in the first place. The underlying value is with Williams you could address an even larger concern and that's the Browns defense.

If you are to become a winner in the NFL, your team needs to be set up where in every draft you can draft the best player not necessarily the greatest need. I am positive that at #10 if the Browns decide to draft a LT they will not be drafting the best player available. In fact, according to most mock drafts, the Browns would be getting the 4th rated OT and at that selection not necessarily a projected LT in the NFL. The Browns have a storied history of drafting for need rather than the best player. I don't believe passing on Williams due to money (which the Browns have the most cap of) is a smart move considering you are gambling on a rookie that's the 4th rated when you have other concerns and money to burn so to say. Trading for Williams is a smart move at this time for the Browns. Drafting the 4th rated OT at number 10 overall appears to be stupid in my opinion.

I am not opposed to getting Trent Williams if the price is right. I don't think it should be a high pick. I'm really not interested going higher than a third, but that is just me. This is a stacked LT draft and he will be 32 in July on the final year of his deal possibly seeking an extension.

He is not a long-term solution, IMO, so giving up any early round pick where that player selected (in let's say the first or second) has a higher chance at being a long-term answer, regardless of position.

If it was a mid-round pick, we take on the contract for one-year and let him walk while grooming the heir apparent with the #10 selection......I suppose that could be a decent scenario.

Additionally, for any team that could possibly take Trent Williams off Washington's hands, it might mean that is another LT off the board leading up to the tenth selection.

Edit: Probably not....I forgot they are #2. For some reason I thought they were lower.

DAMARIOUS RANDALL
DB, LAS VEGAS RAIDERS

Raiders signed S Damarious Randall, formerly of the Browns, to a one-year contract.

The ex-Packers first-rounder fell out of favor in Cleveland last season, getting benched for a "coach's decision" in Week 13. He did return to start Weeks 14-17. Randall's Vegas signing comes the same day the Raiders backed out of an agreement with CB Eli Apple. Randall should immediately slide in as a starter opposite Johnathan Abram. Capable of playing most any role at the back end of the secondary, Randall has 14 interceptions in five years, though zero of them came last season. It's a nice addition for Vegas.

RELATED: Cleveland Browns
SOURCE: Josina Anderson on Twitter
Apr 3, 2020, 12:43 AM ET

I get your concern but think about this. There are a number of people on these boards that are suggesting signing 38-year old Peters as a stop gap. Williams is only 31 (going on 32) and can seriously be considered a viable option for 3-4 years at LT. Additionally, how long do you think it would take any tackle we draft (as it looks the #4 rated OT) to get up to the value Williams brings even if he regresses some? I don't care how much cheaper Peters is - he is a serious step back in value from Williams and considering him is just plain nuts.

Now in comparison, there's not a single OT in this class that can be considered Joe Thomas worthy. The funny thing about Thomas is there were people right here on this board that raised hell for the Browns taking Thomas instead of Peterson. That said, Thomas turned out to be the best LT in the game when he played. The second best LT in the game - Williams and he still has some serious tread on the tire. Now, there's not a single person on this board I believe that would question for a second paying a 31-year old Joe Thomas 18 million dollars per year in today's money.

That's the same Joe Thomas that was busting DE's at age 33. The same Joe Thomas that missed 9 games in his final year (same number Williams has missed due to injury). No one would have questioned Thomas' cap hit which in 2017 was 14.5 million and would be considerably higher than 18 million in todays money.

I just think it's a little hypercritical to say you'd have no problem paying Thomas (33) the best in the business in 2017 but that in 2020 we need to be frugal and question Williams age at 31 even if he is the best in the business. I'm not saying that LT is not going to be a need at some time but not in 2020 when your team is defensive needy and you have an opportunity to get the best in the game at LT.

Finally, when we talk about Williams and the Redskins so called demand for a second round pick (I think you can get him for a 3rd and a player) - there was little pushback last year when we got Beckham and Vernon for starting guard Zeitler, starting safety Peppers, our 2019 1st round pick #17 overall and our 2019 3rd round pick #95 overall. The cost for Williams is minimal when you consider what we paid last year not to mention the investment of 5-years for Beckham @ 95 million and 2-years on Vernon @ 15.25 million. Summary: for 2 players, 110.25 million a 1st round pick, a 3rd round pick and 2 starting players. At the very most, the cost for Williams would be 4-years @ 18 million or 72 million and a 2nd round pick for the best LT in football (though I think a 3rd round pick would work if we add a player). Seems like a steal to me considering what we laid out last year. What makes Brown fans believe it's ok to pay what we did last year but now we want to be frugal or consider age. Then you have to ask yourself: Did we get what we paid for in the Beckham, Vernon (who missed 6 games) trade?

Look, injuries are part of the game and it happens to every team. That said, getting a 7-time Pro Bowl LT only comes along once in a lifetime and the Browns have a chance too make it twice in a decade. Passing on this opportunity on a team that's ready to win now is foolish in my opinion. Not to mention they would arguably have the best line in football for the best RB and improving QB makes the move valid and with little risk considering the alternatives.

I'm less worried about pro-bowl appearances because that is a popularity contest as much as a true reflection of 'best in class' ... with that said I had been advocating a serious look at Williams but I swear I saw someone posting game stats which are very different than those you just posted. Shame on me for not verifying that when I saw/read the other stats that seemed to indicate he'd missed many many more games ...

Willams for a 3rd or 4th round pick and a big contract incentive laden to playing/starting games is a great solution in my eyes. We have the cap space to take a gamble. It fills a need. It allows us to go after another top quality impact player in positions where we could also use help.

Who is it that's saying that FO was awesome? Or is this yet one more statement that is arguing against something no-one ever said?

I get the allure of Peters for us right now. He's older, but he'd come in and be solid if unspectacular, and not cost any draft picks. He'd also come in and more clearly be a stopgap. Williams clearly wants to be "the guy" for at least a little while.

We don't know the conversations that are or are not happening between Cleveland, 'skins, and Williams. If it were me in Berea, I'd be looking at what we can/can't afford, in terms of trade and $$ capital, and looking to hammer on the skins and Williams to get what I want... all the while keeping an eye on Peters as a plan B. I think we absolutely need to have at least a 1-year stopgap at LT while we develop our LT of the future.

I prefer Williams as long as the cost makes sense. We have to be aware of the young'ins that we're going to have to pay soon.

If Trent was 26 or 27 and at the peak of his career, you'd have a point.
He is not.

He is a band-aid at that point. He is NOT a long-term answer for the team. THIS is why Peters makes more sense. He already *knows* he is at the point of his career where he is a band-aid. He can be brought in on a one or two year deal that will be eminently affordable AND our team doesn't have to give up anything for him.

Conversely, Washington wants to be well-compensated in any trade for their 7-time Pro Bowler, AND that 7-time Pro Bowler that just sat out of football for a year wants to be the highest paid LT in the NFL.


Even if we get him for dirt cheap in terms of draft capital (a 4th), and he is reasonable about his contract, he STILL isn't a long-term solution. He is at best a two year placeholder. Period. Thus, we STILL need to draft a replacement LT highly.

And as for the injury argument... it doesn't matter WHY he misses games, he missed all of those games. The ones missed for substance abuse are still missed games, and also point to him being one strike removed from another long suspension.

So, unless you can talk Williams into the same contract dollars that Peters would agree to, and unless you can get the Redskins to only take a 4th for him, he simply is not worth it..... and even if you do all of that, we STILL need to draft the LT while we're picking high enough in a year loaded with LT's to do it.

J/c

So Randall to LV ... that kinda makes sense

Seeing a one year, $3.25M deal for Randall.

Ouch! Probably not what he thought he would get this time last year.

I agree and believe the FO has done a stellar job of front end loading the contracts of the players we have signed. That's my main point about Williams. First the Browns can front end load his contract. Second they can add in performance incentives, roster bonuses, and other pay for play incentives to sweeten the deal but also protect the franchise. They can even add in guarantees for like year 1 and 2 with the front end loading. Look, getting a Pro Bowl caliber LT is going to cost the Browns. However, with 40 million in cap space they have the funds to easily pull off the deal. Second, by front end loading the contract they free up that money in years 3 and 4 not to mention that the cap will increase every year also. IMHO, signing Williams to a best in class deal is easily within the Browns cap and will not effect signing our young guys with contract renewals.

Going back to Peters for a moment, I hear all the talk about Williams injuries which I proved was bunk but Peters has missed 12 games due to injury the last 4 years which is 3 more than Williams. Peters is 38 while Williams is 31. While Williams has been a Pro Bowler every year between 2012-2018, Peters has not made the Pro Bowl since 2016. Peters is at best a 1-year stop gap which would require the Browns to draft a LT in this draft which I'll talk about in a minute. Williams would allow the Browns to skip this year and maybe even next year of addressing LT with a high pick or they could use a later round pick that wouldn't actually be forced into service for 3-4 years after being mentored by a perennial Pro Bowl LT.

Now the draft: there are 4 OT's deemed to go in the first round with 1 early 2nd or possibly very late 1st. The Browns have the 10th pick but many of the teams in front of them have OT needs too. In addition, there are some teams with draft capital that could or should move in front of the Browns to get a OT.

Let's review: the Giants at #4 are considered to be drafting an OT in most mocks. The consensus is they draft Wills from Alabama with this pick. Wills played RT the last 2 years at Alabama so he doesn't meet our need anyway.

Arizona at #8 are also deemed to draft an OT in most mocks. The consensus is they will take Wirfs from Iowa with their pick. Wirfs is also planned to be a RT for the Cards with the left side already being manned by Humphries who also just signed a long term deal. Again, though he has some LT experience, Wirfs played 29 games at RT and 4 at LT at Iowa thus is a player that does not meet our needs because he's not a LT.

Jacksonville is picking #9 and is also in the need of an OT but most mocks also have Tampa trading into this spot to get ahead of the Browns for an OT to protect Brady. Either team though has their eyes on OT Thomas from Georgia. For the Bucs or the Jags, the plan for Thomas is to be a RT. However, Thomas played the last 2 years at LT after a Freshman year at RT so moving to the other side is an option. Considered the best pass blocker in the nation, Thomas is smaller of the talked about OT's at 6'5" and 315 lbs and has had problems run blocking straight up. He might be an answer for the Browns but will he be there at #10? The mocks say no and the Browns do not have the draft capital to move up.

The Browns pick #10 and the only OT left on the board is Becton from Louisville. Just a quick note, a number of the mocks have LB Isaiah Simmons Clemson available at this spot. Becton is a mountain of a man 6'7" and 364 lbs. Having started 12 games at RT and 21 games at LT, Becton is interchangeable. Becton will need to work on his pass blocking at the next level but his pure size and strength make him a viable run blocker at either position. The draft overview says that the biggest concern with Becton is his weight that creates an obvious low-floor scenario. Without discipline that he prioritizes his weight, quickness will diminish and make him unserviceable as a LT. This pick would be a huge gamble since he's already starting at 364 lbs.

Late 1st round picks or early 2nd round would be Josh Jones OT Houston and Ezra Cleveland OT Boise State. Jones a LT at Houston is a developmental project in need of substantial technique work. To be clear, he needs plenty of work with his pass sets and footwork, but most of his issues appear to be coachable. He's a good fit for a move-oriented rushing attack and has the traits and talent to become a future starter if he continues to develop with coaching.

Ezra Cleveland, a 3-year starter at LT for Boise State. Athletic left tackle able to make all outside zone blocks in the run game, but in dire need of additional mass and functional strength. Cleveland has issues anchoring and redirecting edge pressure. Cleveland has the athleticism to play swing tackle for a zone-based offense but needs to get much stronger to hold up as a starter.

Neither one of these last two are ready to walk in and anchor the LT position as a starter. It might even take a trade up to get either one of these projects. That leaves Becton at #10 who will have potential weight issues in the very near future without serious discipline in controlling his weight.

This brings me full circle as to why the Browns need to pull the trigger on Williams. Yes, he will cost us but we have the cap space and taking a project in the draft is not the answer especially where the one that looks to be available to us could very easily eat his way out of the position sooner than later.

They are saying he is signed to play Corner.Then go on to state a good pick up by Raiders.

I agree good pick up if playing FS but at CB he is less than average and will be picked on for sure!

jmho

You've done a nice job presenting your case. I'm still more thinking along the lines of Prp and go with Peters on a 1-2 yr deal though. But your opinion on TW is very valid.

On what grounds do you come to this conclusion?

Ezra Cleveland is the strongest of all the top OTs' in this years class.

Yeah, I echo this post. It's not that I so much disagree with steve... moreso that I understand the hesitation of committing to Williams, given the little of what we know that it would take to get him in here and playing for us.

The comments on Ezra Cleveland came straight from the scouting combine report written on NFL.com. I just don't make up stuff. This is the scouting feelings from his time at Boise State and the combine. Right or wrong, and you may difer in your opinion, the scouting report is what it is so I have to give some credence to the report.

There rarely are. I think it was Savage who said something like if you draft a LT high and they can't make it there, they can usually play RT, and if not there they can end up playing guard.

It usually doesn't end up a totally blown pick like drafting a QB who can't play or a receiver who can't catch. You may not get your 10 year LT, but you are still going to get a player who can start somewhere on the line.

Terez A. Paylor
@TerezPaylor
·
11h
The Chiefs have reached an agreement with TE Ricky Seals-Jones, a source tells m

I think that's a really great fit. Ricky is a good receiving TE and with Kelce getting all the attention, Ricky will make some plays even if his touches are going to be limited. I'd bet he has a pretty high YPC at the end of the season.

So, I've been posting a lot about the Browns getting Trent Williams. I've tried to put together a reasonable reason why the Browns should pull the trigger based on value, sound business, and team. You are free to disagree but I think I've put forward a compelling argument.

Value: I think that offering 38-year old Jason Peters as a stop gap for a year or two due to low cost (I suspect between 5-7 million per year for 2-years) and adding a first round draft pick (approx. 22 million guaranteed for 4 years) is not a sound value. Money wise, the Browns are looking at an investment of approx. 34 million for 2 players that have low ceilings. Peters at age 38 is suspect in it self. The so called rookie class of 4 OT's going in the top 10 picks comprise of 2 RT's in Wills and Wirfs. Thomas is a LT but there's only a 10% at this time he'd be available at #10. That leaves Becton who is a LT and a monster of a man but being age 20 and weighing 364 lbs already, gives great concern about his weight going forward. Becton will have very little wiggle room in managing his weight going forward and presents the lowest ceiling of all the OT's due to his weight. Later in the round or the 2nd, Cleveland and Jones appear to be projects but would cost less and decrease the likely hood of success to 33%. Williams on the other hand is only 31. Anyone trying to use his age as a discussion point is mute if you're considering a 38-year old Peters for 1-2 years. Williams value out weighs all of the above. Williams is 1-year removed from 7 consecutive Pro Bowls. He is arguably the best LT in football.

Sound Business: Williams should be good for 4-5 years for the Browns. Even if he performs below Pro Bowl level, he instantly provides a huge upgrade to the position now and in the future. Financially, the above case shows that the investment in Peters (2-years) and a #10 picked rookie (4 years guaranteed) would require a financial outlay of 34 million give or take. Williams cost during years 1-2 would be comparable if we paid him 18 million per year. However, rookie contracts are front end loaded to protect the cap. I would suspect that a #10 pick would have a fully guaranteed 4-year contract paying about 2.5 million per year with a 12 million signing bonus. Actually, Peters and a OT rookie would cost 20.5 million year 1, 8.5 year 2, 2.5 million year 3 and 2.5 million year 4.

Business wise, how do the Browns make this work? The value is there without question - the question is the cost. As with the rookie contract, the key is to front end load the contract so that in years 3-4 the Browns have the option to move on without any dead cap money or making sure that they do not harm the cap going forward if Williams performs as expected. First the trade: the Skins are looking for a 2nd round pick. That might be within reason considering the value of Williams. The Browns then must sweeten the pot. The Browns could and should offer a 3rd round pick for Williams. Adding a player will almost certainly get the deal done. I suggest the Browns offer Vernon as the player. Here's why, Vernon was not the player we needed last year opposite Garrett. Yes, I know he was injured but in the games he played he only logged 26 tackles and 3.5 sacks. At 15.5 million, those are some pretty poor stats. In 2020, Vernon will be in the final year of his contract and is scheduled to be paid another 15.5 million. Additionally, Vernon will not be resigned by the Browns next year so right now they are looking at a 1-year rental for 15.5 million. The money is not guaranteed and there's no dead cap money involved. Trading Vernon and a 3rd round pick (which we have 2) will get the deal done and free up 15.5 million immediately to use on extending Williams. Bear with me, trading Vernon, not signing Peters and not drafting an OT at #10 gives the Browns 44.5 million in comparable money to spend on Williams. The contract I suggest is 14 million per year for 4-years. 2 million per year for games played bonuses and an 8 million signing bonus. This makes the total deal of 72 million if he achieves all the bonuses but 16 million of cap savings in year 4 if the Browns cut him. The only year the Browns will actually be paying new money is in year 3 of 11.5 million if they cut him in year 4. The Browns would guarantee years 1 & 2 totaling 40 million with bonuses and gives the Browns an out in years 3 & 4. In real money, drafting an OT at #10, signing Peters as a stop gap for 2-years and keeping Vernon would cost the Browns approx. 44.5 million compared to Williams costing 40 million with a front end loaded contract. However, in years 3 & 4, the max cost is 16 million per year which would be extremely cheap if Williams is still performing at a Pro Bowl level. Bottom line, proven Pro Bowl LT to anchor the offensive line vs a 38-year old LT coming off injury and a 50/50 shot on a rookie LT. Remember, there's basically no cost to the Browns in years 1 & 2 getting Williams instead of Peters, a rookie, and Vernon.

Team: The LT concern is immediately addressed. In fact, the Browns would be considered as having one of the best offensive lines in football. There is an immediate upgrade at the position over who they have, Peters, and/or a rookie. Mayfield's blindside will finally be protected (something he has never seen in Cleveland). You bring a veteran presence to the O-line. LT doesn't need to be addressed in the early rounds or could be delayed a year or two, The Browns can now use their draft capital on the defense which is needed badly. It will definitely send a message to the team that the FO is playing to win now - we are no longer in rebuild mode. The Browns bookend tackles should be set for 3-years plus.

I lean the same way - but I 100% understand the question mark over Williams attitude and motivation.

From a risk perspective - rolling with a value trade for Williams (4th and 5th round pick? - a 3rd round pick?) - I think you have to improve the back up LT position as insurance, but at 10 there is a lot of options including trading back a few slots and taking the top LB or one or the top 2 safeties. . . . .

1. if Williams is a complete bust (mentally or injury) we lose a butt ton of $$$$ (contract needs to be written to protect cap space) and we play 2020 season with a sub-par LT.... With the improvement elsewhere on the OL I think we can survive and win games.

2. if Williams stays healthy (mental/physical) but has diminished skills, I think the floor is still an average probably above average LT which is still an improvement and gives us a really solid OL.

3. if Williams stays healthy and still has high skill set for the position, we potentially have one of the best OL's in the NFL. (And in any of these scenarios we have the results from the draft capital spent).

Definitely verbatum from his draft Profile. Player Bio

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/ezra-cleveland?id=3219434c-4567-0117-4b64-f3ef088b9fb5

I think that might be said due to his 6'6" body that can definitely get bigger than 311.

But remember this: the kid played 2019 with TURF TOE for OL that is a big deal and I think effected his Run blocking POWER.

The more I look at him the more I like him. He seems to be "COUNTRY STRONG" I love that in a football player. And although he has Small Hands 9" the same as Joe Burrow. His arm length is not great but just under 34"

When a kid goes 31" - 33" he usually is considered an OG.

Keep in mind this thinking was done after Toni Bosselli who was 6'7" but his arm length was disproportional at 33 1/2 inches. His career was cut short because of the Shoulder problems that developed from the shorter arm length as DEs would go around him and he would utilize the arm to hold them up as his feet would get there. Eventually his shoulders basically fell apart and so did his career. That is WHY and WHEN the evaluations for LT started evaluating arm length.

jmho

Nope, I shall not be muted.
Peters: either one year or a two year deal, but he is only here for one.
Williams: Unless you can get him to accept a two year deal, is out of the question to me. He wants BIG money and it is his last real contract and that will require a much longer deal, but there is little chance you get more than two years out of him.

Why the disconnect? Simple: Peters still going at his age is NOT normal and CANNOT be looked at as what to expect from Williams. The simple fact is that, by far, most top tier, best of the best, future-HOF LTs are done after 10-12 seasons and when they drop off, it is usually rapid and precipitous. Peters is an exception, not the rule. That means that regardless of which veteran you sign, you need to be taking a LT in this draft to start grooming to backfill. That part is an absolute given. So, you are either drafting a LT and signing Peter's, or you are drafting a LT and also trading for Williams.

I keep waiting to hear that Jameis Winston has signed on to be Lamar's backup. Imagine the Jimmy's Seafood endorsement opportunities.

Browns show interest in Jadeveon Clowney with possibly best offer yet for edge rusher, per report
Add the Browns into the mix for Jadeveon Clowney

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/brown...her-per-report/

14 mins ago
The Cleveland Browns are entering the Jadeveon Clowney sweepstakes. Per ESPN's Jeremy Fowler, the Browns have shown interest in Clowney and some people around the league believe Cleveland got closer with Clowney than the other suitors. Whether this gives Cleveland the inside track to land Clowney remains to be seen, but the Browns have certainly checked in on the defensive end's asking price.

Cleveland already has Myles Garrett and Olivier Vernon at defensive end and signed Adrian Clayborn to a two-year contract earlier in the week, so the Browns aren't needy of pass rushers. Garrett had 10 sacks and 39 pressures before serving his six-game suspension that ended his 2019 season, but Vernon had just 3.5 sacks in 25 pressures in 10 games and can be cut to create $15.5 million in cap space. The Browns could certainly use an extra pass rusher opposite of Garrett, which is where Clowney comes in.

Clowney has 32 sacks in six NFL seasons with 80 quarterback hits, 252 pressures and three Pro Bowl appearances. He has also graded out exceptionally well via Pro Football Focus, specifically over the past two seasons. He finished with 31 tackles, three sacks, four forced fumbles, 13 quarterback hits and 47 pressures in 13 games, but was hampered for the majority of the second half of the season with a core muscle injury, explaining why the sack numbers are down. Clowney had surgery on the core muscle injury, which shouldn't affect him for the 2020 season.

Clowney has reportedly lowered his asking price from north of $20 million per season to $17-18 million which may have been why the Browns have entered the mix. The Titans and Seahawks are also interested in Clowney, even though Seattle will have to maneuver cap space as they are currently have $14,825,497 in cap space (per Over The Cap).

Cleveland has the most cap space in the NFL at $43 million and can create much more by parting ways with Vernon, so signing Clowney to a massive deal won't be an issue. The Browns certainly have the finances to give Clowney want he wants and emerge as the winner of the sweepstakes.

I don't know how I feel about cutting Vernon, especially after what we gave up to get him. Still a dumb trade IMO.

I Have read somewhere that Garrett and Vernon have the ability to move inside on certain pash rushing plays. Wouldn't adding Clowney and keeping Vernon make more sense if this is true?

Yes. I want to keep Vernon as I think he's a very good DE. He can anchor one side of the line and let MG run havoc. Potentially adding Clowney makes it very interesting. Having Clowney and MG on the same side or with MG inside and Clowney outside - with the speed and quickness off the snap that MG has .... But I'd be fine with not landing Clowney.

I think they'd like Clowney if the price was right. I think they'd like Griffen if the price was right too.

There has been too much going on regarding the other DE slot not to think this FO would prefer to move on from Vernon and his contract. The question is if they will be in a position to do so. Or restructure. Or have to stay the course.

The more and more these DE remain on the market, I can only assume that means the price goes down. That's a good thing for us, it seems if that is the route they'd like to go down.

Jc

If we get Clowney for the right price thats a great pickup

Yes, it most certainly was.

I would think that Clowney would be a 1 for 1 swap-out for Vernon. We sign Clowney and cut Vernon.

Yup. I think the only reason Vernon is still on the roster is because we haven't found an adequate replacement. If/when we do he's going to be cut (or traded).

On the most recent Nate Ulrich podcast he said he talked to a source about Browns players being discussed in trades. The source said that the only Browns player he's heard in trade talks is Olivier Vernon.

Here is a link to the podcast:

https://omny.fm/shows/cover-2-a-podcast-...ns-moves-this-o

And Nate Ulrich has a pretty good pulse on the Browns, if you ask me. He is really good.

I would agree.

I agree it makes sense on the one hand ... but it's doubtful we will spend all of our cap limit. Why not try to keep both if you can.

And man - if we end up cutting Vernon after one injury hit season that trade will not look good under any light.

12 games played in 2017
11 games played in 2018
10 games played in 2019

Vernon has a cap hit of $15.5. That is ridiculous considering the injuries.

This doesn't take into account games when he wasn't 100%. yet still went on to the field. (Kudos to him, I suppose)

I think Vernon could be worth his contract if health wasn't an issue. The fact remains the he can't stay healthy and he probably isn't going to be with the team beyond this season anyways.

If they can essentially swap his contact with someone else +/- a couple million, I don't know why the team wouldn't do this with someone they perceive to be more reliable and can stay on the field.

But I guess my issue with a Clowney signing is I don't think he is worth $17-$18M he and is team is asking for.

But why? If you need the cap space ... sure, that'd be a no brainer. If you can get trade value (unlikely) again no brainer. . . . but if you don't need the cap space, why get rid of a good player who has no off field issues if you don't have to? Doesn't even save future cap space.

Can't you roll over cap space?

Even if you couldn't, the "just because you have cap" argument never made sense to me. Bad contracts are bad contracts. Why would an owner commit to them as it hurts his/hers and the organization's bottom line.

Clowney would be an upgrade over Vernon if only because of injury issues. Vernon is a very good player but if he can't stay on the field what good is it. That was the knock on him in NY and it has continued here. It won't get any better as he gets older.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm about 60/40 in favor of keeping Vernon and not signing Clowney. Mainly because of the financial issues long term with other big re-signings looming over the next several years.

Anyway found this article which examines the potential transaction.

Browns need to be cautious, prudent in pursuit of Jadeveon Clowney

Jeff Risdon
28 minutes ago
Several reports are floating around now, bringing the whispers many have heard quietly for weeks into the mainstream cacophony: The Cleveland Browns have legitimate interest in signing free agent EDGE Jadeveon Clowney. ESPN’s Jeremy Fowler and The Seattle Times’ Bob Condotta both reported the interest on Saturday.


bcondotta
@bcondotta
Browns have recently been mentioned as a potential suitor for Clowney. Sounds like they may be making a serious run. But as Fowler notes, nothing appears imminent. https://twitter.com/JFowlerESPN/status/1246493073103781890 …

Jeremy Fowler
✔
@JFowlerESPN
From @SportsCenter earlier: Cleveland Browns have shown interest in Jadeveon Clowney, and some people around league believe Cleveland got closer with Clowney than other suitors, though nothing ultimately happened from recent talks. Seattle's offer hasn't been what Clowney wants.

16
1:45 PM - Apr 4, 2020
Twitter Ads info and privacy
See bcondotta's other Tweets
Fans are probably quite excited at hearing Clowney’s name. He still carries significant recognition and cache value from being the No. 1 overall pick in 2014. His crushing hit on Michigan RB DeVeon Smith while at South Carolina remains one of the biggest college football highlights of the last decade.

Here’s the reality check, from someone who covered Clowney’s 2017-2018 seasons in Houston and watched most of his NFL snaps before and after it, including last season in Seattle.

He’s not better than the Olivier Vernon who played in Cleveland in 2019. He’s certainly not worth paying more than Vernon is due to make in 2020 even though Clowney has already lowered his contract expectations.

Here’s how Clowney and Vernon stacked up last season, the first year with new teams for both veteran pass rushers.

Snaps Sacks QB Pressures
(Per PFF)

PFF pass rush
grade

Overall PFF
grade

Vernon 508 4 24 75.7 80.4
Clowney 712 3 43 76.7 80.8


Clowney did generate more pressure per pass rush snap in Seattle than Vernon did in Cleveland. But the grades are almost exactly the same and Vernon converted more of those pressures into sacks. Clowney hit the QB just two more times than Vernon (13 to 11) in over 200 more snaps, per Pro Football Reference. The Browns just signed Adrian Clayborn, who had four sacks, 39 hurries and a 76.7 PFF pass rush grade in less than 450 snaps for just $6 million for 2020.

There are two days to interpret that information. Either Clowney isn’t as good as advertised or the $20 million a year he was asking for, or Vernon is better than Browns fans — most of whom want him shipped out of town on a high-speed train — think he was.

Where Browns GM Andrew Berry and his staff really need to be mindful is in the economics of the situation. If they want to bring in Clowney and replace Vernon, it’s somewhat justifiable from a football sense. While they’ve been very similar players for the last few years, Clowney is over two years younger. Clowney has missed just five games in the last three years to Vernon’s 15. But the money must matter, too.

Vernon is in the final season of a contract he signed years ago with the New York Giants. He will earn $15.5 million in 2020 and then he’s a free agent. No future obligations are due Vernon, which is important for a Browns team that needs to come up with contract extensions for Myles Garrett, Baker Mayfield, Denzel Ward, Nick Chubb and (maybe) Kareem Hunt in the next 12-18 months.

Clowney earned $15 million in 2019, a figure split between the Texans and Seahawks. He got dealt because he wanted more from the Texans than the franchise tag figure, and he didn’t re-sign with the Seahawks for the same reason. This past week, Clowney dropped his long-term contract demands to $17-$18 million per season from the $20 million per year he was previously seeking, according to ESPN’s Dianna Russini.

That’s simply not a worthwhile swap, especially considering the rate Clayborn — again, a more effective pass rusher than either Clowney or Vernon — just signed for with the Browns. The cap room beyond 2020 is more important than a literal handful of extra QB pressures Clowney might (might!) generate this fall.

Now if Clowney agrees to sign a one-year deal for the same money Vernon is making, it’s a smart move. But that’s about the only way the Browns’ pursuit of Clowney makes sense.

Link

IF the Browns would sign Clowney, I wouldn't expect it to be a long term deal.

I don't suppose there's any chance the Redskins would be interested in Vernon? It looks like they run a base 3-4 defense, so I assume Vernon would have to play OLB.

If we’re trading Vernon for Clowney I do it immediately

The scenario I'm thinking of is trading Vernon (and a later round draft pick, if necessary) for Trent Williams, after signing Clowney. It would let us wait and hope that Simmons, Derrick Brown, or Kinlaw slips to 10.

(Question: can NFL trades include cash? Because we have cash, and we could "equalize" the difference between Vernon ($15.5M) vs Williams ($12.5M), instead of sweetening with the draft pick.)

I don't see a team taking on Vernon's contract w/o some added asset of ours. Think the Osweiler trade.

But hey, I'd love to be wrong and see a team take that on.

A few things.

--Thanks for the info Kash.

--I don't think the trade of Vernon for Zeitler was dumb on the Browns part. An Edge rusher is much more important than a RG. The RG is the least important cog in the OL. Trust me on that one. I coached the OL. An Edge rusher is huge. Vernon helped take the pressure off of Myles and the latter benefited. Also, Vernon is good against the run. He sets the edge well and maintains very good outside containment. It sucks he got injured, but he is a very good player who plays a more important position than another very good player in Zeitler. Not asking you to agree. Just explaining my thinking.

--I really hope the Browns don't sign Clowney. I know people who knew him in college. He turns it on and off w/the best of them. Ever!!!! It was a contract year so he played harder. Often times, he is lazy as can be, out of shape, and takes time off. He also gets manhandled at times.

--I would rather keep Vernon [even though I am leery of his injury concerns] instead of signing Clowney. I would not trust Clowney to put in a lot of effort after he gets "paid."

He put in more effort last year? That's scary because I didn't think he was very good past year. 3 sacks in 13 games. At his price, I keep Vernon too.

I don't know about his numbers, Cle. I was talking about his motor. He played harder. He caused some havoc on plays where he didn't get the sack.

I live in SC and I know his history. I would not trust him to play hard after he gets paid.

We agree about Vernon. I think he is a very solid player. He is underrated by most of the guys I see talking about him. I do concede the injury think is fairly concerning.

I just hope we don't give Clowney a big payday.

I watched a few games when Clowney was playing, and to my untrained eye, I think he doesn't go full speed all the time. I've seen him get blocked and sort of give up. I agree he has a motor that is not non stop. I would keep Vernon, and draft a guy to groom.

A couple weeks ago an NFL Network talking head said his love of football has been questioned.

Just throwing that in.

Didn't we just pay Vernon a bunch of money?

Yes, definitely done in haste...

Ezra Cleveland and Joe Thomas coming out have uncannily similar measurables.

Both:
6'6"
311 lbs
33"+ Arm length
30 - 28 reps of 225 respectively
4.93 - 4.94 40 times "
30" - 33" Verticals "
111" - 110" Broad jumps "
4.46 - 4.88 20 yrd shuttle "
7.26 - 7.95 3 cones "

We don't have to trade his deal. We can just cut him for a 100% cap savings.

Why would we want to "just cut him?"

I'm just saying that we have no "dead cap" on his deal, because this is the final year of his contract. If they wanted to replace him with Clowney, they could easily do so from a cap aspect.

Okay...............I'm just saying that would be a dumb move. Cowney is lazy and would cost more.

Let me amend that statement by saying it is just my opinion and I have no problem w/you thinking Clowney is a better value.

Yeah, I'm not all about stats but he still doesn't show much most of the time. But he made his name on the huge hit on a 150lb Michigan RB in the bowl game. He has all the physical talent but just never seems to "take over" a game.

Not worth half what he will get. Hope it isn't us.

We agree.

I will say that if he really wanted to..........he could be a stud. Superior athlete. Great skills. Very explosive. A bit weak in the lower body against powerful blockers, but his length, quickness, and burst are impressive.

Living here in Columbia, I couldn't believe some of the stories from people who know him. I don't want this guy on the Browns.

Clowny can't stay healthy either.... I don't mind picking him up for the right price but to swap him with Vernon doesn't make a ton of sense... neither have kept themselves on the field and cloweny ha s never lived up tho his hype when drafted

I've always liked Vernon, because of injuries the trade didn't come off as planned.

But Healthy Vernon is still a good-great player we just have to keep him fresh and not with playing Chad Thomas

I think Clowney is less disciplined but does have more ability to apply pressure and move around anywhere on the DL in pass rush situations also has the ability to play 2 point (LB). I like the Idea of flooding the side with with Garrett, Clowney and Larry but that is just me... lol

So I actually in the scheme of team defense would prefer Vernon but even if we get Clowney it doesn't mean we get rid of Vernon...we got the cap space and both will not be around in a couple of years when we need more space to sign players to their 2nd contract.

I'm thinking mostly of Garrett and Baker.

jmho

The Browns rarely do what I think they should do. But they never ask me as well.

So this what I would like to see:

Forget Clowney. Re renegotiate a deal for less with Vernon.

Trade for Trent Williams. Don't give in and give up the farm. Make a legit deal for him.

Then move and get Simmons. I know linebacker is not considered a "primary" position these days. But you have to look at what impact a guy like Simmons brings.

If he turns into the type a player he projects to be; that supersedes position value. Because he plays three downs and his versatility impacts every down. He tackles and covers at a high level and projects to create turnovers.

These moves bring a proven LT to the OL. Then puts a stud at a position of need who projects to be defensive leader.

This to me is draft day deal that you build a nest for.
If the LT you really want is gone. Washington gives in to the realistic value of Williams. Williams agrees to a new contract that is fair market value.

If Simmons can not be had you can trade down and use that leverage to land Williams with extra picks and still get players to improve the roster.

If however, they have their sights set on one guy for LT and he is there they can play it straight and get their guy.

But hey, that is just me. The Browns will most likely do something else. Or, maybe we never know what they planned when it is over.

Agree with you 100% - with one caveat. I think Simmons *might* go as high as #4 to the Giants. I don't see him slipping past #7 and the Panthers.... Moving from 10 to 7 still means giving up out high 2nd round pick. To me the cost of moving from 10 to 4 would not be worth it.

https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp

If Simmons is gone at four. So be it. You move to another plan.

That's the draft. You plan for all contingencies. You plan through every scenario.

We have Bill Callahan on staff. He knows Williams first hand. He is the resource you lean on.

Both in scouting OL draft prospects and his knowledge of Williams.

That's an angle I had forgotten about... Having Callahan on staff should help us make an informed choice.

I would definitely pursue Clowney. I've advocated for it all offseason.

He is an elite player and is still young enough that we would be getting his prime years. He is excellent against the run and can win in the pass rush as well as anyone.

I would also still keep Vernon. He is only on a one year deal at this point. We have the cap to do it and it gives us one helluva rotation. Vernon will turn 30 this year, so he likely isn't on our radar to get another contract after this.

The one thing I'd do with Clowney, however, is tie a lot to production and being healthy. His agent won't like that, and that's fine. Pursue him, but only in a deal that makes sense for us.

I don't hate the idea of Clowney ... I hate the idea of signing a huge deal to get him here and then seeing him do something like Jamie Collins did and basically not give 100%. Clowney's last year at SC he basically took it easy and said he didn't want to risk injury as he was already touted as a top 5 pick in the draft. I think he played through injury the year before? Or maybe he had some niggling injuries his final year. . . . I disagree that he got all his kudos from one play stuffing a small RB. He's a legit elite talent & Clowney was already a huge deal before then, certainly locally in NC/SC. But he does not play with the same intensity and passion like you would want/need a top earner on your team to. . . . AND Vernon is very good too, so it's not like we have a void at the position ... an injury question maybe, but I don't like jettisoning good players just in case. Look at Joe Haden and how many productive years he has had as a Steeler because of that very thing.

If we get him ... your gonna be disappointed ... i hope I’m wrong but this dude is bad news tude wise ... once he gets paid ... i don’t suspect that will change ... if we get him i hope it does ... but that’s not usually how this plays out ...

The only reason I can think of that we are interested in Clowney is that maybe Vernon's knee injury last year was serious enough that the team doesn't think he can be an effective pass rusher anymore. Vernon never was a great pass rusher, good, not great and with all the injuries he has had the last 3 years maybe they have taken a toll, plus couple in the fact that he will be 30 this year it could be that the team just wants to move on.

Football is the ultimate team game, but not all positions are created equal.

Given the pass-happy nature of today's NFL, quarterbacks are clearly the most important players in the game, due to their responsibilities and direct impact on the outcome. What about the other players on the field? How do team builders rank and prioritize the rest of the positions on the roster?

According to scouts and coaches, they have ranked the positions in order of importance/value. Here is the hierarchy, with the Browns current starter commitment at each spot for quick reference:

1) Quarterback - Mayfield, year 3 of a 4-year 32.68 million fully guaranteed rookie contract
2) Designated Pass Rusher 1 (RDE/ROLB) - Garrett, last year of 4-year 30.4 million guaranteed rookie contract
3) Left Tackle - OPEN
4) Left Cornerback - Ward, year 3 of 4-year 29.165 million rookie contract
5) Wide Receiver 1 - Beckham, under contract until 2023, 6-yr 103.4 million contract
6) Defensive Tackle 1 - Richardson, year 2 of a 3-year 37 million contract
7) Running Back - Chubb, year 3 of a 4-year 7.4 million rookie contract
8) Designated Pass Rusher 2 (LDE/LOLB) - Vernon, final year of a 5-year 85 million contract (15.5 million due in 2020)
9) Middle Linebacker - Takitaki, Year 2 of a 4-year 3.735 rookie contract
10) Tight End - Hooper, just signed a 4-year 44 million contract
11) Free Safety - Sendejo, just signed a 1-year 2.25 million contract
12) Weak-Side Linebacker - Wilson, year 2 of a 4-year 2.83 million rookie contract
13) Right Tackle - Conklin, just signed a 4-year 42 million contract
14) Right Cornerback - Williams, year 2 of a 4-year 6.46 million rookie contract
15) Right Guard - Teller, Year 3 of a 4-year 2.7 million rookie contract
16) Wide Receiver 2 - Landry, year 3 of a 5-year 75.5 million contract
17) Center - Tretter, just signed a 3-year 32.5 million extension
18) Strong Safety - Joseph, just signed a 1-year 1.5 million contract
20) Strong-Side Linebacker - Goodson, just signed a 1-year 2.4 million contract
21) Left Guard - Bitonio, year 4 of a 6-year 52.4 million contract
22) Nose Tackle - Ogunjobi, Year 4 of a 4-year 3.9 million contract
23) Wide Receiver 3 - Ratley, year 3 of a 4-year 2.575 million contract
24) Kicker
25) Punter
26) Return Specialist

I realize that some of these positions are still up in the air depending on FA moves, trades, and the draft but I think you get the jess.

First: the Vernon, Clowney, and/or Griffen saga. The designated pass rusher 2 is the 8th most vital position to the team. We currently have 15.5 million invested in the position with Vernon. Adding a Clowney to the mix at 18 million for multiple years is crazy when you have your 3rd most vital position basically sitting open at this point. The question here is how can anyone on this board justify signing a Clowney for let's say 4-years at 18 million per year yet balk at signing the #1 rated LT in the NFL who's 31 to a similar deal when it's the 3rd most vital position compared to the 8th? Passing on the #1 LT in the game for a rookie or a Peters at this point is silly.

It appears evident that the Browns intend to move on from Vernon at this point. If they do sign Clowney (it will have to be a long term deal) there's no way the Browns hold on to that 15.5 million contract with Vernon also. If your thought process thinks that it is ok to pay Clowney 18 million per and to keep Vernon at 15.5 million because they have cap room then it makes way more sense to trade for Williams at 18 million per, skip Clowney and live with Vernon or get Clowney and trade/cut Vernon. The thought of having 33.5 million invested in Clowney and Vernon at the #8 most vital position on the team and balking at 18 million for the #1 LT in the game or considering filling that spot with a 39-year old Peters and a rookie is laughable if you're considering investing 33.5 million in the off side DE.

I still say that adding Vernon and a 3rd round pick to Washington for Williams and signing him to an 16-18 million per year deal is a way better value to the team than Clowney or a Vernon/Clowney, or just a Vernon. Oh, and there's no history of Williams taking plays off or not being focused on football as it is with Clowney.

Getting Williams also frees up the FO to focus the majority of the draft on the defensive side of the ball which has some huge holes at Safety, Linebacker and DE no matter what they do with Vernon. Unless OT Thomas from Georgia happens to fall to the Browns at #10, there is slim to no chance that the Browns get a LT anywhere else in the draft that could come in and be half the LT Williams is even if he seriously regresses. If he performs anywhere close to the level he performed at in 2018 the Browns LT position would be solid at least for 3-4 years. In fact, the entire line would be veteran and under contract for at least 2-years with no weak links.

I get that there are people on here that don't necessarily think Williams would be a good move. I get that and unfortunately I disagree. However, thinking that investing 18 million per year for a Clowney - keeping Vernon at 15.5 million in addition to Clowney and not addressing the 3rd most vital position with a 7-year straight Pro Bowl LT at the 3rd most valued position on a team doesn't make sense to me. I, like you, am waiting to see what the FO does over the next couple weeks. It could be the difference between a playoff team or another top 10 draft pick depending what they do. They obviously have some huge holes to fill and have done a pretty good job so far. Excited to see what else is on the plate. .

Just to repeat this is where having Bill Callahan on the staff is valuable.

He has direct professional knowledge of Williams the player and person.

And since LT is a position of need who better to provide input on the tackle prospects in the draft. Plus Joe Thomas is a permanent Brown who could also provide valuable input.

steve,

How do you REALLY feel about the Browns signing TW? (just kidding )

Once again you've put forth a nice argument on TW. I just believe that whether we get TW or Jason Peters we will still spend our 1st or 2nd on a LT. TW has a fair amount of unknown on the health dept...but I won't be upset if we go get him so long as we don't trade away anything higher than the 3rd we get from Houston to get him.

I am as leery as anyone of Clowney...but with Vernon on the last year of his deal, we could probably swing the cap hit and keep them both. That would make for one heck of a DL - on paper anyway. (I'm going to make a prediction that Chad Thomas plays as much - or more - inside as he does outside this year.) We could get another year out of Vernon and maybe get a Comp pick after he moves on?

It's interesting that the 'Scouts & Coaches' ranking you showed has the RG as the most important OL position after the Ts. Just another dagger in the trade that got rid of Zeitler and brought us Corbett...then Kush...then Teller. Jettisoning Zeitler and pairing Corbett/Kush with Hubbard was an epic fail.

Clowney to me would be another version
Of Dwayne Bowe and Kenny Britt
Throw a ton of money at a guy who is only looking for one last great payday
And who's desire to give 100% is non existent
Clowney is more name than " game"
His motor is a 4 cyl and your paying
For a 6.2
Vernons best days are over
Another overhyped acquisition by the Homer crew

Talent wise Jadeveon Clowney is a clear upgrade over Olivier Vernon for 2020 and future years. There is definitely concern over injuries for Clowney (as there is with Vernon) but his price has probably gotten to the point where it's worth the risk. Something like $40 guaranteed over four years with little money guaranteed over the last two years makes a lot of sense at this point. I don't agree with the perception that Clowney won't play hard as he has been a very good player as long as he has been healthy.





https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jadeveon-clowney/8636

Clowney might be a risk ... associating him with Bowe or Britt is flat wrong.

It is rare to have a player like Simmons.

An off ball linebacker with the closing speed of a safety.

When this guy closes on a back or qb he is exceptional.
He will hold position integrity and then explode to close as a tackler.

A bigger version of Polamalu. Simmons has the skills to be difference maker. One of those guys who can take over games. The guy he really reminds of is Sean Taylor at 6'3" 225. Simmons is 6'4" 239.

He comes across well in an interview. Hungry to learn and compete.

He has the type of ability that usually translates well to the NFL.

Draft day usually has some surprises. A trade for TW and a move to get Simmons would be an interesting move.

You are making me dribble ... call me crazy - but landing Clowney, keeping Vernon and landing Simmons would provide a phenomenal pass rush on 3rd and medium/long. Rushing only 5 - Richards + MG in the middle, Vernon and Clowney on the edges and Simmons darting through a gap or looping outside of one of the edges who crash to the inside .... now bring a safety up or the nickel CB blitzes .... Probably a pipe dream. Or the same look at have Simmons drop into zone coverage to take away short underneath routes.

I totally get drafting a LT at ten. The top four guys all appear to be worthy.

However, Williams is still young for the position and he has had a year off. Callahan knows what he can bring.

With Williams and Conklin you hit the ground running with a veteran line.

Simmons is like icing for a defense. He makes everything better. A Swiss army knife tool set. He gives you the freedom to do a lot of different things on defense.

We are in a good place no matter how it plays out.

But if they could get Simmons and TW I think we would be ready to roll right off the bat.

Vernon was starting to play when he got hurt. I would be fine letting him hold the position for another year and cross that bridge later.

I am leary of Clowney. He has great talent but I am uncomfortable with a guy like him at this stage. I would not want to give him more than a two year deal and I doubt that is what he is looking for.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2020/04/...-vernon-salary/

I agree .. if we could get Simmons our defense is improved greatly.

I like your post because it is logical and I get your are quoting someone else, but I will never agree that RG is more important than a LG and even a center. The center is responsible for making the line calls and that is huge.

I do want to point out that an Edge rusher is far more valuable than a RG in almost every list made by anyone who can even sniff a clue about football.

Is there a list somewhere that claims a RG is more valuable than an Edge? Certainly not in steve's list. Those professionals have Edge well above RG...but RG is THE #1 interior guy as listed by these particular professionals.

I have outright said I am in favor of seeing what it takes to address our need at LT AND get Simmons.

look, we have a LOT of capital to play in here. Our Cap position is good, and importantly, one of our division rivals does not have a first round pick this year. It's time to be innovative, aggressive and make strong lasting moves.

It's a decent argument, but it still comes down to age and cost. Regardless of what happens with Vernon, I would MUCH rather bring in Clowney than Williams.

He is younger and in his peak years. Williams is entering his twilight, if not already there.

He will have a larger impact - our OLine - and offense as a whole - is pretty well loaded now, sans that one spot. We can absolutely afford to roll with the less expensive journeyman in Peters and a rookie behind him.

The cost is much less. The dollar value will be roughly equivalent, but to get Williams we're giving up picks or picks and a player. Heck, in one of your scenarios you include Vernon... you create another hole on defense AND give up another pick along with the dollar investment. Then, in the same breath you mention needing to focus the draft no defense after you created a hole there and got rid of a pick that would be useful for filling holes.
In my scenario, we fix the LT spot, we boost the Hell out of the DLine AND we keep all of our draft picks. All we give up is cap space.

Either way, that "3rd most vital position" gets addressed, but in my scenario the entire defense gets a force multiplier. The offense is already a rock star waiting to happen... the defense needs serious help, and adding an elite player that will demand as much attention as Myles Garrett will make things easier for everyone on the the DLine and in the secondary.

I understand that. I was simply responding to Dave's comment and scenario regarding Washington and getting Trent Williams.

I wasn't ever in favor of getting rid of Vernon and/or bringing in Clowney... but with hsi asking price going down, and the possibility of getting Clowney on a reasonable-ish contract going up... that changes the equation for me a little bit.

A potential scenario of signing Clowney to a somewhat reasonable contract (front-loaded, or essentially a 2-year deal via the details), and trading Vernon for draft capital or a player that can fit a need actually doesn't sound all that bad. Essentially, you're trading injury concerns for attitude concerns. I don't like either, and everything else the same I'd prefer to deal with Vernon's concerns vs Clowney's, but coming out of a couple transaction with Clowney instead of Vernon and some additional draft or personnel capital actually doesn't sound too bad.

The tricky part will be seeing what we could get for Vernon, and the structure of Clowney's contract. It would have to have a bunch of flexibility after a year or two.

Nobody is taking Vernon at $17 million this year.

Just a little information regarding the LT position. Some seem to think that, or at least suggest that Trent Williams still has four years left in him at a high level. And that certainly could be. Jason Peters playing at any competent level at all is almost a miracle considering his age.

I think any time you consider signing a FA at the LT position, or any position for that matter, you must consider the law of averages. Even signing Jason Peters to a one year deal at his age is a risk. But putting a huge contract on a four year deal for Trent Williams is an even higher risk.

Here is a very interesting article that explains why. It shows you that yes, there are outliers, but on the average, you can expect a LT to peak at 32 or earlier. This article will give you names, example and I would say it explains why giving NFL LT's over age 30 is a very risky proposition.....

NFL offensive tackles and the age-wall

At the urging of a few other staffers, I’ve decided to turn this into a full article. With the release of Russell Okung yesterday, there is a distinct possibility that the Denver Broncos will end up with 36 year old, Andrew Whitworth, as their starting LT next season. Whitworth was still playing a high level in 2016. He made the Pro-Bowl and was PFF’s second best LT in the league last season. He was 1st team All-Pro in 2015 and second team All-Pro in 2014. He had made the Pro-Bowl three times and been 1st team All-Pro once during his eleven seasons in the NFL. By every measure, he was one of the best left tackles in the league in 2016. The question is how long can he be expected to maintain that level of play given his age?

Andrew Whitworth was born on December 12, 1981. At the start of next season he will be closer to 36 years old than 35. He will turn 36 during the season. Why should this bother you, because the list of NFL offensive tackles who have played well at that age is maddeningly short. There are two, Gary Zimmerman and Jackie Slater, both of whom are in the Hall of Fame. So let’s look at the career arc of those two offensive tackles and then some others to get a feel for when elite offensive tackles start to decline.

Those who beat the age-wall

Jackie Slater was not a LT. He played RT for his entire career which was spent with the Rams. Jackie Slater was a freak of nature. Born in 1954, he was able to block defenders who were almost half his age near the end of his career. He was drafted in 1976 out of Jackson State and played 20 NFL seasons, but he didn’t become a full-time starter until his 4th NFL season in 1979. He was never a 1st team All-Pro, but he made the Pro-Bowl seven times, the first time being in 1983. He played in 259 NFL games. His decline started in 1993 at the age of 38 when he suffered an injury that cost him half the season. He would play another three NFL seasons, but he was a shadow of the player that he once had been playing only 16 total games in his final three NFL seasons. He retired after playing in one game in 1995. In his final NFL game he was 41 years and 169 days old. In all of my research I was unable to find another offensive lineman who either played this long, or was playing as well after the age of 35.

Gary Zimmerman is the other example of an offensive tackle who played at a high level into his mid-30s. Zimmerman was born on December 13, 1961 and was taken third overall in the 1984 NFL supplemental draft by the Giants. He would never play for the Giants though as he spent the majority of his career with the Vikings. He was an immediate starter once he got into the NFL, but he didn’t play in his first NFL game until 1986. He finishing his career with seven Pro Bowl selections. He was named 1st team All-Pro three times - the last of which was after the 1996 season with the Broncos. He was very durable only missing 8 NFL games in his 12 year NFL career. We can argue if he was in decline in his final season in the league, 1997. He failed to make the Pro-Bowl that year after making it to the Pro Bowl in four of the previous 5 seasons. However, even if you don’t think that his play was waning, he apparently thought it was as he chose to retire after our Super Bowl victory. Zimmerman was 36 years and 43 days old when he played in Super Bowl 32, his final NFL game.

Age-wall victims

So let’s look at some other elite and very good NFL offensive tackles who are (mostly) no longer playing to see at what age their decline started.

Hall of Famer Anthony Munoz had his decline start at the age of 32 in 1991. Muoz was the 3rd overall selection in the 1980 draft. He was an immediate starter for the Bengals. He was retired after the 1992 season. There were only two years when he did NOT make the Pro Bowl – his rookie year and his final year in the league. He was selected to the Pro Bowl eleven times and he was a nine time 1st team All-Pro LT. He missed 8 games during his final NFL season. He was 34 years and 130 days old when he played his final NFL game. Munoz only missed 17 regulars season games during his 13 years NFL career. He arguable could have played longer, but he felt that he had nothing left to prove in the NFL. He was such an amazing athlete that he was used as a goal-line receiver, finishing his career with 4 receiving TDs on 7 catches.

Jake Long (Vikings) was the first overall pick in the NFL draft by the Dolphins in 2008. He was an immediate starter and made the Pro-Bowl in his first four NFL seasons. He was named 1st team Al-Pro once. His decline started at the age of 29 in 2013. He is currently 31 and has only started three games in the last two seasons. His knees are to blame for his decline as he has had multiple ACL tears.

Walter Jones was the 6th overall pick in the NFL draft in 1997 by the Seahawks. He started 12 games as a rookie and we a full-time starter in his second year. He made his first of 9 Pro Bowls in his third season, 1999. He was named first team All-Pro four times and he is in the Hall of Fame. He had his decline start at the age of 34 in 2008 - his final season in the NFL. His decline was rapid as he was a 1st team All-Pro in 2007. Jones only missed 8 games during his twelve year NFL career and was named to the Pro Bowl after 2008 which would be his final NFL season, but half of those eight games were in his final NFL season. His 2008 season was cut short due to a knee injury that would end his NFL career.

Matt Light was a second round pick of the Patriots in 2001 and an immediate starter at LT for them as a rookie. He would be named 1st team All-Pro one time (2007_ and he would make the Pro Bowl three times during his career. His decline with the Patriots started at 32 in 2010. He retired after in 2011, so his decline was very rapid. He started 15 games for the P*ts in 2011 and then retired after the season. After he retired he revealed that he had battled a debilitating disease (Crohn’s disease) for over a decade and that he could no longer deal with the disease and playing in the NFL.

Jonathan Ogden was the 4th overall pick in the NFL draft in 1996. He was an immediate starter as a rookie - starting all 16 games and he made his first Pro Bowl in 1997. He was also named 1st to All-Po following the 1997 season. He made 1st team All-Pro four times and was named to the Pro Bowl eleven times. His "decline" happened at the age of 33 in 2007. The Ravens’ LT was still playing in 2007 and made the Pro Bowl that season despite only staring 10 games. He was slowed by a toe injury. In his final season he only started 10 games (appearing in 11). He had battled the toe injury all year and he decided that he had nothing left to prove in the NFL. He was 33 years and 156 days old during his final NFL game. Given his statement, it’s possible that he could have played longer and still played at a high level, but he no longer wanted to. His decline may not have happened prior to his retirement, but we will never know.

Hall of Famer Willie Roaf was the 8th overall pick of the Saints in 1993. Like most of the tackles he was an immediate starter and made his first Pro Bowl in 1994. He was also named 1st team All-Pro in 1994. He would be selected to 11 Pro Bowls during his career and he would be named 1st team All-Pro three times. His decline started in 2005 at the age of 35. He was named 1st team All-Pro in 2004 while playing for the Chiefs. His 2005 season was cut short with injuries as he only played in 10 games, but he was still named to the Pro Bowl. Various nagging injuries slowed him and hurt his performance in his final season. He chose to retire rather than play at a diminished level. He probably could have played longer. He was 35 years and 258 days old during his final NFL game in 2005. Multiple teams tried to get him to come back for one more season in 2006 and 2007.

Orlando Pace was the first overall pick in the NFL draft in 1997 and an immediate 16 game starter for the Rams. He would make his first Pro Bowl in his third NFl season 1999. He would also be named 1st team All-Pro for the first time that year. Pace would make the Pro Bowl seven times during his career and would be named 1st team All-Pro three times - the last being in 2003. His decline really started in 2006 at the age of 31. He only played in eight games that season due to a knee injury. Then he re-injured his knee during the opening game of the season in 2007. He played through the 2009 season, but he was never an elite LT after 2005. He would play his last NFL game at the age of 34 years and 24 days old.

Tra Thomas never made 1st team All Pro, but he did make the Pro Bowl three times. He was drafted 11th overall in 1998 and was an immediate 16 game starter for the Eagles. His decline started at 33 in 2007, and he retired after the 2009 season. He was almost 35 years old when he retired. He was 34 years and 360 days old during his final NFL game in 2009 when he couldn’t make it as a starter for the Jaguars. He was brought in to be the veteran insurance plan in case #8 overall Pick Eugene Monroe was not ready to be a starter as a rookie at LT in the NFL. Monroe was a bust because, despite his draft status, he has failed to lock down a starting tackle position in the NFL for more than a season and has only started 16 games once during his NFL career.

Chris Samuels made the Pro Bowl six times but was never 1st team All Pro. He was drafted third overall in 2000. Samuels was an immediate starter in Washington and would make his first Pro Bowl in his second season, 2001. His decline started at 31 in 2008, he was done after the 2009 season. He hurt his knee during the 2008 season and missed 4 games. He would injure his neck in 2009 and retire after the 2009 season after playing only five games in that season. He was 32 years and 68 days old when he played his last NFL game.

Michael Roos was the 41st overall pick by the Titans in the 2005 draft. He was an immediate starter at LT and RT for them as a rookie. He made the Pro Bowl and 1st team All Pro only once (2008). His decline happened in 2014 at 32. Prior to the 2013 season Roos had only missed one regular season game during his NFL career. He only played in five game in 2014 before he missed the rest of the season with a knee injury. He was retired after the 2014 season. Roos decided to retire instead of risking permanent damage to his body. He most likely could have played longer, but he also was never really in the same class as the rest of the tackles in this article. He was exactly 32 years old when he played in his last NFL game (what a crappy way to celebrate your 32nd birthday).

Conclusion

There are instances of offensive tackles continuing to play at a high level in their mid 30s, but they are few and far between. Most elite offensive tackles start to decline at roughly the age of 32 if they haven’t already. At that point most of these men have been playing tackle football for 25 or more years. I can tell you from personal experience (I played center and guard in college) that playing on the line has a cumulative detrimental effect on your body. I’m sure that there are elite tackles that I have overlooked. Please sound off in the comments with anyone that I have missed and I will respond with the same type of analysis that I applied to the guys in this article.

While Andrew Whitworth is now the best option for the Broncos at LT, even if his level of play drops off a little in 2017, the front office needs to get him on a very short deal similar to what John Elway was able to do with Evan Mathis in 2015 (one-year incentive laden deal).

https://www.milehighreport.com/2017/2/27/14724674/age-wall-for-offensive-tackles-nfl

I oppose giving Trent Williams a big money, four year deal and this article explains very much why I have that view.

Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
·
40m
Veteran LB Gerald Hodges, who retired last year, now has decided he wants to play this season, per source. Hodges is a free agent.

Great research and I am in total agreement with your thoughts about Peters. As far as Williams goes, my thought process is he's very serviceable at his age and will be for 2-3 years. If he doesn't slip much he still is better at 3/4 speed than the majority of the LT's in the game. More importantly though is that the Browns could front load his contract and back load it with pay for play incentives. With bonuses and guarantees out of the way by the end of year two, the Browns would have the option during years 3 & 4 of making cap moves to release Williams if his production falls without absorbing any dead cap. The vast majority of teams are structuring contracts this way now to avoid the dead cap money.

Again though I have to take into account the value - risk & reward of the move. The Browns O-line is set to win now outside of the LT spot. The Browns have one of the best receiving corps in football and arguably the best RB or RB duo in football. The thought process is that the Browns have their franchise QB. LT is the huge hole and like my previous post dictates the #3 valued position on the team.

Risk & Reward: The first case of signing Peters and drafting an OT has the highest risk. First the Peters risk of having a diminishing player at age 38.

The second is hoping that Thomas falls to the Browns because as I stated earlier, Wills and Wirfs are RT's and would be stupid to draft and think they could play LT out of the gate in the NFL. Becton, a true LT, is a monster of a man but weighing 364 at 20 years of age is a weight problem waiting to happen. Even by some miracle Thomas does drop to #10, you are putting an untested rookie at a highly valued position with a veteran line. He will be the weak spot and that's if he does perform as expected. I would be 1-2 years before he even gets up to the level of performance of the other lineman and the team is playoff ready now outside of LT and with future contracts coming up in the next 3-4 years could greatly change the team they have now. That's just plain business.

Third, bringing a veteran presence in Williams would solidify what is already a very good line outside of LT. Williams is 1-year removed from 7-straight years of Pro Bowl performance only broken because he sat out. There is no reason to expect such a drop off that he'd be a liability to the offense. In fact, there is a better chance that he performs better after a year off the heal the knicks he has had. If 33 is the drop off line as you suggest, that gives Williams 2-years of high level performance and if structured properly the Browns would have an out if necessary during years 3 & 4.

Bottom line is the Browns offense is set to win now - not 2-3 years down the road when a LT might be ready. The two biggest issues on the offensive side of the ball is LT and Mayfield. Eliminating the blind side worry of a rookie LT or a 38-year old diminishing skills tackle would go a long way in Mayfield's growth. I don't believe you are sending the correct message to the team when you have an opportunity to get the best Pro Bowl LT in the game to man the 2nd most important position on the offense by cheaping out with a washed up 38-year old LT or possibly drafting a college RT, a 364 lb potential weight issue, or hoping that the only truly ready LT falls to you in the draft and could be a constant worry. In fact, I suspect that if the Browns want Thomas that bad they will have to trade up into the top 4 or 5 places in the draft. The amount the team will have to spend on Thomas would crush this years and next years draft.

The final option is to wait until round 2 to get the LT where the success level drops to 33% and creates even a bigger concern for an offense built to win now.

From my perspective, based on your own prediction and the article I posted, I'm not willing to pay top 10 money at the LT position for what you yourself describe as "very serviceable at his age and will be for 2-3 years".

I don't consider that a sound position with which to move forward. Let's just say we're never going to agree on this.

A lot of this back-and-forth regarding Williams will come down to the nitty-gritty contract details, which we'll only know once it's all said and done.

While I don't question his seriousness about not wanting to play for the skins, I will also not be one bit surprised if he were to sign a lucrative contract with them and then be more than happy to resume playing on their line like nothing happened. I think, regardless of where, he'll be playing under a new contract when he does resume playing.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/...on-trade-offers


Interesting ... cuz I actually liked what I’ve seen from Mullins. In Stefanski’s system (similar to Shanny’s) he’d be a decent idea

Maybe, but we already got our guy in Case Keenum

Yeah ... I bet we offered something before we signed Keenum

Totally understand the risk. My take on making a deal for Williams. Maybe a four year deal but only two guaranteed.

And of course that would include what Callahan has to say and a complete physical.

If we could make a trade with a player(Njoku maybe) and a third rounder. I think it may be worth it.

But this is a draft day deal. Only if things fall right. A deal for Simmons at seven. The Browns top LT prospect already taken etc.

Williams when he has played has been one of the best tackles in the game.

If he is fully healthy; I see no reason we could not get two very good years from him.

To me it is the type of thing you watch and see how things go and if you can make the right deal you do it.

We're just never going to agree about this.

If the guy they want at LT is there then they should get him. If their guy is gone then they should look and see if they can make the right deal.

I think during a draft process you have to be flexible.

If your position is if all else fails and we are in desperation mode, then I guess as a last ditch effort to address the position I would agree.

Did I put enough qualifiers in there?

Some LT's you missed that did not leave with diminished skills:

Roosevelt Brown, HOF Rosey played 13 years for the NY Giants and retired at 34. Rosey's final 2 seasons with the Giants he made the Pro Bowl. In fact, Rosey made the Pro Bowl 8 straight years before missing in '63 but finished with 2 more Pro Bowls to finish out his career. Brown retired going out on top and coached the Giants after retirement.

Jonathan Ogden, HOF Ogden played 12 years for Baltimore. Ogden made 11 straight Pro Bowls missing only his rookie season. Ogden retire 19 days short of his 34th birthday still on top.

Art Shell, HOF Shell played 15 years and 23 playoff games (equal to another season and a half) with the Raiders. Shell made 8 Pro Bowls. Shell retired in 1982 at age 36 after a season of injuries. In 1981 Shell played in 13 games and in 1980 at the age of 34 all 16 games and made the Pro Bowl.

Willie Roaf: HOF Roaf played 13 years in the NFL. Roaf made the Pro Bowl 11 times including each of his last 4-years playing. Roaf retired in July at the age of 36. KCC General Manager Carl Peterson said he was holding out hope that the perennial Pro Bowler would reverse his decision because they wanted him back for a 14th year but Roaf stayed firm in his commitment.

Walter Jones: HOF Jones played 13 years for the Seattle. Jones made the Pro Bowl 9 times including his 8 straight final years of playing. Jones started every game in which he played as a pro. Jones suffered a severe knee injury in Nov 2008 ending his 8th consecutive Pro Bowl season. Jones had surgery and rehabbed for a return in 2009 but was placed on injured reserve. Jones intended to return in 2010 but instead retired in April after 13 years with Seattle at the age of 36.

Ron Yary, though a RT, HOF Yary played 15 years retiring at age 36. In year 14 at age 35, Yary started and played in all 16 games and only missed 2 games due to injury throughout his career.

Joe Thomas, played 11 years for the Cleveland Browns. Future HOFer Thomas was a 10 consecutive year Pro Bowl LT only missing his final year due to injury. After being put on injured reserve, the Cleveland Browns amended the contract of stalwart offensive tackle Joe Thomas, making him the highest-paid offensive lineman in the NFL in 2018. The deal includes $3 million in new money over 2017 and '18, including a $1.5 million roster bonus paid this past week, plus a raise of $1.5 million in base salary for 2018, which will now be $10.3 million. Factoring in his base salary and bonuses, Thomas was scheduled to take home $13.5 million in cash in 2018, the highest figure at the time for any NFL offensive lineman. In March 2018, Thomas shocked the Browns by announcing his retirement at the age of 33. The Browns obviously had no concerns about Thomas' ability going into 2018 or further.

Qualifiers in place.

Regarding the position of LT the Browns have two great resources in Callahan and Joe.

I am sure they will take full advantage of that.

So, I am not sweating it.

We are in desperation mode - We do not have a LT.

You had to use a time machine for some of those didn't you?

I totally understand your thinking here, but to be truthful those arguments are for another time and League.

I see our window as being only two to three years while Baker is on his rookie contract, and a few more key named players.

I am all for a QB cashing in (conditionally) on their 2nd contract, but many times it means cutting some other key cogs of the team.

That being said...
My preference is that we Draft our future LT.

j/c:





And who knows how long until doctors can test. Same with other players too, I suppose.

I’d love to get him for one year prove it deal

If thats what it comes down to you'd have to think CLE would be the best place fro him to land. Given who else we already have, it should make it easier for him to have a productive year.

Good point. He’d be motivated to sign here and play well

Pretty sure he was motivated last year. That isn't an insult or anything, but it was the last year of his deal and he certainly did play harder last year than in previous years. I think he is discovering that his overall history trumps his most recent year's efforts.

I think he’s not signed because of his injury history and teams can’t give him a physical.

That could be true.

But, didn't he finish the year healthy? I could have sworn I saw him chasing Wentz down and putting a cheap shot on him during the playoff game.

I kinda think it is more about money and his past commitment to the game. I think teams kinda know why his effort increased last year. Just my opinion.

He’s had a ton of injuries in the past. I wouldn’t want to guarantee him a bunch of money only to find out he has an injury that won’t allow him to be effective long term.

The only people I’ve seen question Clowney’s effort are on here. The injuries are a much larger concern.

Hey, Clowney could have made 19.1 million under the Franchise Tag this year. He knew this could happen so he had it put into the contract that Seattle couldn't Franchise Tag him. On March 21, the Seahawks offered Clowney (I think the offer still stands) 18.5-million per year on a long term deal. The Hawks offered 18.5 and Clowney knows he could have made 19.1-million so to date he has refused the offer.

The Browns: Any crazy thoughts that the Browns can get Clowney on a 1-year prove it deal or a 1-2 years low ball offer is living in a fantasy land. Second, Clowney wants a long term deal and has one on the table. Originally demanding 20-million per year, the rumor is the price has come down. Obviously, the price has not dropped to 18.5-million or he would have already been signed. That tells me that the asking price if you're going to be a contender for his services is between 19.0 and 19.5 million per year on a long term deal. I also think that the lower you go the more guarantees he will demand.

Look, think what you might but with a multi year deal for 18.5-million per year sitting on the table, the Browns have to be offering 19-million plus for multiple years to be in the conversation. Since I don't believe Clowney hates Seattle or doesn't want to play there then it becomes about money and playoff potential. Since the Seahawks were in the playoffs in 2019 and considered a contender in 2020 with a stable organization, the Browns have to offer more perks considering they are on the 3rd coaching staff in 3-years and coming off a 6-10 record. Those are just the facts and I'm sure they are in Clowney's thought process.

Bottom Line: Clowney will cost the Browns 19-million plus on a long term deal if they want him. The proof is in the pudding. Now they have to decide if this move provides value, enhances the future and is a good business decision. Time will tell...….

You must not have looked.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/0ap2000...cerns-are-legit


https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/peter-k...on-01dxqcwqfff7


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...just-an-opinion

All those articles are from pre-NFL - I mentioned that in his final year at college he was without doubt known for taking his foot off the gas and went into preservation mode to protect his already established draft status.

I don't know for sure that he has had the same criticism leveled against him in the NFL ... that's not me saying I don't think there is criticism. It's me saying I don't know - the worst I have seen/heard is that he does sometimes take plays off. And to be honest I don't think that is very uncommon in the NFL. There is a reason guys like JJ Watt jump out at you with their constant and unrelenting effort .... it is because it is uncommon.

Steve broke it down very well - I don't think this is a reality so I don't think it will be something we need to worry about.

The second one is from 2019.

Also, I never said that Clowney's injuries are not a concern. They are. I am just saying that he his work ethic has been questioned. And that it has been stated in more places than just "on here."

This is tough.

Clowney is def a great talent, but his injury history is concerning.

Not going to lie, be great to pair him with Garret, but I think the price has to be right. We could do much worse, for the right deal it would be hard to pass on signing him.

Pit wasn't going to state my opinion on this thread but like many they evolve into different things, as long as its football I guess its ok. So I will get this thread out of the way.

1. Clowney has some elite talent left in him but I would prefer a Healthy Vernon for the Browns.

2. Peters LT, I say JUST FORGET ABOUT HIM!

3. There is a more than 50% probability that we end up making a deal with the Redskins...but we might have to give up a 2021 2nd rounder I think. Probably along with one of our 3rd rounders of 2020. Don't know if we wait for the draft.
That we have 1 or possibly 2 players (not 4) placed in a desired pick for us at #10. But what if we have Simmons there available at #10 then we go scrambling to complete that Williams trade and pick Simmons???

Problem with that is this dang virus as we would like to fly Williams in and get an MRI and intensified medical look at him before any trade. Possibly we can have a handshake deal that would only be effected by a bad medical report. But then we are screwed if we passed over a LT at #10???

I think that will be in our future. No Peters but a good chance we get Williams for our LT for the next 4 years.

jmho

My bet is that Clowney sits and nobody signs him until after the draft.... or, if his agent gets antsy as the Draft nears and teams begin to shift their focus, he might sign right before at a discount... but, I wouldn't expect that.

At this point, I think teams will be focused on what they can get in the Draft and then the teams that still have a need at DE will circle back to him after the dust settles.

I think we're seeing the league collectively tell him that he is just not going to get the money he was expecting and unless his requirements get lowered a lot, he is going to be out of work.

Given that, in the end I could see him taking a one year deal with someone so that he gets paid and has another shot at FA next year (and maybe with a new agent that can read the market a bit better).

I’m starting to agree ... he may be waiting until he can pass a physical and teams ante up more money then

I think teams are balking at his asking price, and probably he wants in guarantees.

Physicals can be done by local physicians. Doctors can send charts and x-rays and imagery... information is shareable, so I don't think that is a hold up.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "interest" we reportedly showed was nothing more than inquisitory to find out where he stands on things... e.g. would he do a shorter term deal, what is he looking for in guarantees, etc.. basic homework kinda stuff. No actual pursuit, just a basic fact-finding mission.

In years past, his situation is the sort that he remains unsigned into the summer and eventually agrees to a moderate one year deal; maybe a two year deal for cap purposes with a ton of guaranteed that is really a one year.

I see your scenario being a possibility. Although i think the possibility of Simmons falling to #10 unrealistic.

But that brings up a situation that wouldn't be in our favor. NFL teams fully understand the needs of other teams. If we don't address the LT position at #10, the Redskins then know we are desperate for a LT. It puts them in the catbirds seat in negotiations and I really don't like negotiating from the side of weakness. It only drives the price we will have to pay up.

And as you describe, the logistics of such a deal on draft day would be a nightmare with the virus situation.

By contrast my biggest concern is that there will not be a candidate at the LT position there worthy of the #10 pick. I'm not nearly as sold that there are as many candidates in this draft at the NFL LT position as some people I've seen.

So either way we could find ourselves in the position you describe.

IF we went the route of trading for Trent, I can see a scenario where we go into the Draft without it, go through the Draft sticking to our board completely, and then if we still want to shore up that position, we talk to them AFTER the Draft... not during it while we're under pressure and on the clock.

Their leverage would be lower and any picks we give up would be 2021 picks.... and this FO is smart enough to know to not give up a higher round than normal just because it's a future pick.

In terms of getting Williams, this is probably the best scenario all-around as it greatly mitigates the biggest problem with getting him which is giving up Draft capital AND paying him a ton.

We'd still have to pay him a ton, but the "pain" of giving up picks is pushed out to next year and *hopefully* those picks won't be Top 10.

As a general strategy, this makes the most sense to me.

Simmons available...All 4 OTs have to go, All 4 QBs have to go (Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Love) that means the one team not doing the above takes YOUNG....and voila there you go Simmons...lol

Ya never know. Just putting that out there I say we take Beckton or whoever is left and also trade for Williams so there is no rush for that OT - but in Beckton's case while he waits to take over at LT he possibly could be a kick butt RG

jmho

I think that would probably be a much better scenario. But at that point, they would also know he is the one and only option we would have. Still not negotiating from a position of strength.

I guess the only way we would have any leverage at all would be this scenario.......

To begin with, I do not share the view of some who think there are "three or four guys" worthy of the #10 pick in the draft at the LT position. There may be two but only one I'm actually sold on. If and when Thomas comes off the board, that would be the time to talk to the Redskins.

While they know we would prefer Trent to any other player left on the board, they would fully understand we would have the option of picking another LT at #10. So with them knowing Trent isn't our only option takes away some of their leverage.

Where do you propose we take a project like Becton? #10? At #10 you should be getting a top talent at their position who is plug and play.

I think Okudah is also a top 9 pick, so that's another one.

I agree.

j/c:



FWIW.

.

I think your missing the negatives on Becton, he weighs 364 lbs at age 20 and is considered a future LT not a plug and play. Every GM will have to seriously look at Becton's weight because he will have to seriously be disciplined through out his career with weight management. Keep in mind, a 15 lb weight gain puts him at 379 lbs and that would eliminate the LT position for him because guys like Garrett will eat him for lunch.

2 of the other 3 are RT's. Wills played RT every game in his career at Alabama and Wirfs played 29 of 31 games at RT for Iowa. Thinking that you can just convert a guy to the 3rd most valued position on the team and not have a weak spot on your line is just wishful thinking. That leaves Thomas as the only bonafide option at LT of the four. Now none of this is secret and every GM has the same information that I have. How they feel about each player could be different but if the team is in need of a true LT my guess is Thomas is at the top of each of their lists. If they are just looking at a tackle then it's a different story. The Browns are looking for a LT, PERIOD.

Waiting until the draft to trade for Williams after you see if Thomas is gone or if Simmons falls to the Browns. Here's the drawback to that thought process. First, the Browns only have 15 minutes between picks to make those decisions. The Redskins as well as every other GM in the league knows the Browns need a LT. Not saying that it cannot be done but if Thomas goes at #4 to the Giants lets say and then we call Washington you can bet the price for Williams will instantly go higher. That's not even taking into consideration that Simmons might go anywhere in those next 5 picks in front of us that creates another issue to deal with before #10.

Trading for Williams pre draft gets us the fairest deal because the Skins want pick(s) and will need to address their own issues at LT with Williams gone. Waiting gives the Skins uncertainty and they will want more when we come calling. Having Williams pre draft would 1) address our LT position where we wouldn't be forced into a selection or for heaven sakes reach for a LT or draft a RT hoping he can play LT because of dire need. 2) It gives us options at #10. If Thomas is gone which wouldn't matter if we had Williams our focus could be on Simmons. However, if Simmons is gone we could trade out of the #10 pick for a later first round pick and a second depending on who's trading up. A team like Las Vegas that's looking for a top WR could be an option. These talks could even take place Pre draft so that the Browns have options in place going into the draft. Getting more picks especially if your guy isn't there is a smart move especially considering picking up an additional 2nd round pick. It's like putting out feelers on who might want to trade up and what they are offering. Just an option - don't bite my head off! LOL

I still believe that Williams could be gotten for a 3rd round pick and a player. I originally thought Vernon was the bait to use but his 15.5 million dollar contract is a huge stumbling block (I still think the Browns are going to part ways with Vernon one way or another). A better player option to include with that 3rd round pick would be Njoku. The Skins depth chart right now shows Sprinkle as the starter and the Skins are looking to upgrade at the position after releasing Jordan Reed. I don't think you wait until draft day to pull off a trade after your guy is gone. Even a novice like myself is going to demand more because your desperate or you wouldn't be calling. Make the deal now, eliminate the need, and focus on what you need to focus on which is the best player available.

Two of these are from before the draft. Since then Clowney has performed on the field. Again, I have concerns, they are more about injuries than performance.

j/c:

This!

I agree completely with this. I hope the FO does due diligence and investigates this by end of next week

I was showing you that it's not just "on this board." You can choose to ignore them. That's your right. I was just pointing out that your claim was inaccurate.

Btw-------I typed in Clowney's work ethic and those were the first three on the page. It's not hard to find these articles.

I heard Bucky Brooks make a interesting comment regarding Simmons:

"If Simmons were to be there at 10 (position importance) Cleveland would have to take him. He is a guy who could neutralize Lamar."

When you watch Simmons play you can see that. Lamar breaks out of the pocket often. Simmons on many plays is asked to "read and react". When he comes. He closes so quickly. I can see him making that one on one play.

I have seen very little on the draft to date. Have not really studied anyone till I first watched Simmons and that was very recent.

He is an impressive player.

Exactly .. hes someone who would put our defense at another level and with Lamar in the division, thats key

I seriously doubt he will be there at #10.

Will have to move up to #3 possibly and that will require significant capital.

It’s strange .. cuz i agree with you, but I’ve seen more mocks with him falling to us over the past week or so

what does "kinda think" and "kinda know" mean and how does it relate to this topic? this topic?

Reading is hard.

Noob policing threads and calling you out for nonsense? Somebody has a second account...

Simmons might be the target but if Williams is under contract to the Browns prior to the draft - the Browns then select the best player available at #10 or trade out of the slot for a later first round pick and pick up a 2nd or 3rd rounder as an add on.

For the first time in recent memory, the Browns would have the luxury of trading out or just selecting the best player available. On the defensive side of the ball, the Browns could select any position (with the exception of maybe cornerback) and it would add to the defense. DT, DE, LB, either S would be a plus for the team at this point. Same for the second and 3rd rounds where the later picks could all be based on depth instead of hoping to find a diamond in the ruff.

This could be the start of a new era for the Browns where the draft is getting the best players available instead of drafting for need. Each draft the Browns are drafting depth and/or future starters instead reaching for players of need. For example drafting a guard in the 2nd round because you know that your current RG has 2-years left on his deal and is 33.

re: Becton's weight...

I don't think gaining 15 lbs, especially on someone that's already so heavy, would automatically preclude him from LT (or shouldn't, imo). I think it goes back to his overall skill, technique, attitude/work ethic and athleticism... as they are right now. I don't think it's impossible to play the position at just about any weight so long as you have other traits that balance that out. Joe Thomas was never the fastest, strongest, biggest guy out there, but his mixture of physical traits, technique and skill made him what he is.

I'm less concerned about Becton's weight than I am his technique and the fact that if he doesn't pancake his guy he's prone to not winning the block.

Beckton...NO

J/c

Well in terms of glaring weaknesses ... we do have two at the moment: LT and LB

I'm not advocating for or against Becton. I'm just saying that gaining weight shouldn't be the determining factor.

Yes, teams should draft with an eye on the future.

Although...

Bill Belichick has been drafting for need for years, only he showed us how to accomplish this by positioning themselves in a position to take said players where their value (BPA) was determined by trading and maneuvering to position the team to take said players where their value is concerned within a given class respective of their peers.

Note that this is not reaching for need, but positioning to draft for need.

Well the Browns are not the NEP and haven't been close. What you didn't include was the fact the NEP & Belichick have been masters at getting veteran FA's to plug critical roles that allowed them to draft the best available player. Now that might be directed at a particular area like WR on offense or DL on defense but most likely never at saying we have to have a particular position no matter what. Last year they drafted WR Harry. He was a need but not a must have position. In 2018 they drafted RB Michel (passing on Chubb) with a barn already filled with RB's that they run in and out like crazy. I wouldn't call that a need as much as an opportunity to bolster the position.

In any case, the point was the Browns actually have an opportunity to move into that type of drafting by trading for Williams solving the LT issue for 3-4 years and start this year by drafting the best player available at #10 or trading back to get more picks. Again, Simmons could be the target but if gone not all is lost if the Browns take the best player available for the defense that could be a DT, Edge rusher, LB, S or even CB. It would be a great position to be in rather than going into the draft with the idea they have to have a LT no matter what and draft a guy who played basically nothing but RT in college, or could have weight issues, or reaching for a player that is rated to go in the 2nd or 3rd round due to a self inflicted need.

To be honest, the Browns have done an excellent job so far this off season in FA. They've made some great upgrades and respectable depth. Rumors of talks to get Williams is definitely a step in the right direction. Rumors about Clowney confirms that the Browns consider Vernon a position of concern. On the scale of vital position importance to a team, LT is rated #3 and the offside Edge Rusher is #8. The Browns already have 17-million planned investment in the DE position with Vernon. Getting Clowney would require a higher commitment over a longer term. I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm saying that's just the facts. At the #3 position LT the Browns basically have zero dollars invested in the position at this point today. I also think you have to look at what the FO has done with the offense. They drafted the franchise QB at #1 overall. They traded for 2 Pro Bowl WR's. They went out and signed a TE to one of the highest contracts at the position. They went out and signed a veteran to upgrade the RT position. They resigned their center and have one of the guard positions set for the next 2-years. Thinking that after all these moves, upgrades, and veteran presence that they'd put a rookie at the #3 valued position that might not have even played LT before would be mind boggling. It's also mind boggling to think that the Browns would look at the off side edge rusher, the #8 valued position, and invest somewhere around 78-million long term deal when you currently have nothing at the #3 valued position and going into a draft that really has only 1 LT that meets your immediate needs that must be under no circumstance be a plug and play player at such a vital position.

It just seems to be crazy to think that the Browns have spent multi millions building an offense with what could be considered very few if any weak points only to put all their eggs in one basket in a hope to get a plug and play LT at the #3 valued position in the draft when there's a 7-time Pro Bowl LT available that would cost you less than the #8 valued edge rusher your contemplating signing. All things considered equal, what does Cleveland have a better opportunity of successfully addressing through the draft - an off side edge rusher or LT?

There are even thoughts through this post that keeping Vernon and adding Clowney would make the defense so much better being able to rotate the players in and out. That may be but I'm dumbfounded as to why anyone would think that having approx. 36 million invested in the #8 edge rusher position this year (even though you would say they are interchangeable throughout the DL) is a great move when you have no money invested in the #3 LT position and are hedging on the cost of signing a 31-year old 7-time Pro Bowl LT.

The Browns have 17-million invested in the off side DE right now. It is also a position they are seriously considering upgrading that will cost more than the 17-million already invested. They have zero dollars invested in the LT position.
Trading for Williams would seem to be a no brainer - will the Browns FO pull the trigger though?

Williams hasn't played in a year, and reportedly wants $20 million/yr. So he isn't going to be cheaper than Clowney. And while I agree that a lot of his problem with the Redskins are legit, I also feel like he's a little bit of a head case and also has a pretty extensive injury history. And it depends on what the Redskins want for him.

For the sake of accuracy I never said that every pick of NE was for need. Also WR was a need for them heading into last years draft after trades. The fact remains that BB has a history of doing just that.

That's all I was saying.

I agree that they should have taken Chubb of Sony, but happy they didn't as he was my favorite player that year.

j/c:

Where’d Carrie end up going?

Colts

Thanks ... so they released Desir for Carrie

It appears that way on the surface.

JADEVEON CLOWNEY
DL, UNSIGNED FREE AGENT

ESPN's Jeremy Fowler reports free agent Jadeveon Clowney is willing to sign a 1-2 year contract.

Clowney has already been forced to lower his asking price. Now he seems to be trending toward a one-year, "prove it" type deal. Fowler reports the Browns may have come the closest to signing Clowney to this point, but that nothing is imminent.

SOURCE: Jeremy Fowler on Twitter
Apr 9, 2020, 2:06 PM ET

1 Year, i'm in

It shouldn’t even be a question at one or two years.

Pending some sort of physical, I would agree.

1 year yes please!

One year, keep Vernon. Rotate them regularly. Get the Comp Picks for both expiring contracts on starter quality DE's when their contracts expire next year

I'd be surprised if they did, because I don't see the team signing someone to roughly an equivalent contract size (annually) and then keeping the other as backup making $15.5M.

It would not surprise me if the Browns and Vernon's people haven't been in touch about his deal. I would think that some players, especially coming off injuries, might value security right now.

Good point.

Just not sure what that security is for Vernon and how that benefits Cleveland. If you are referring to whether or not they play games because of COVID, those game checks affect all players if they don't happen. Whether the contract goes down in 2020, pay means little if the games don't happen for all, and I doubt the Browns would restructure his current deal to where there is some guaranteed $ at this point. The Browns have all the leverage. Cutting him costs nothing and perhaps they use the cap as the basis to have someone else signed, but also, approach someone like Garrett now to put some of that money on the books in 2020.

Putting some Garret money on the books in 2020 would be ideal. Not sure if it is realistic, however. Plus I think he has to get formally reinstated first.

Just a comment. The better the team, you can draft for need.

If you are one player away, or you lost a starter on a SuperBowl type team, sure, you can draft for need.

It would be stupid not to if you couldn't get in done in FA.

For most teams, you best simply select the best player possible, and then someday, maybe you are good enough to draft for a need.

By all means, if you are a legit SuperBowl contender, pick the position you need. When you are only winning 5-6 games a year, or zero games a year, you need a lot.

I think you can agree with that.

I thought Myles was already reinstated?

My bad. He was.

Lock him up! (with a contract, of course)

Three things:

--I also thought Myles has already been reinstated.

--I am opposed to signing Clownery.

--New England has sucked in the draft in recent years.

To the third point, I agree. Probably because they are good enough and have been using high picks to fill a need.


It will catch up with them. When you are drafting late in the first round AND drafting for needs, that is risky business, but again, I understand why teams might do that.

Sometimes to keep the window open a little longer, you reach.

NE has been playing a different (offseason) game than near everyone else for a while now. They kept "the window" open as long as possible.

Consistency (system and personnel) has also helped them better leverage vet FAs.

I fail to see the hype and gaga on retaining Vernon. His numbers are Carl Nassib-like.
That's not good at the kind of $$$$ he's making
He peaked years ago. His best days are gone.
They need to draft a DE at some point
I think all the best DE prospects in FA are all signed.

There is a lot more to the game than just looking at sack totals. Jesus!

j/c

I think the Browns will cut Vernon if they sign Clowney.

I'd rather they keep Vernon and let his contract play out. I know that's a ton of money on the DL. But he's only got one year left. He'd be a potential comp pick if he then (later) left as a FA.

Could be the same with Clowney if he does a one-year deal...and again the same with Hunt.

I'd like to see the Browns name plastered all over the comp picks list like it seems I see every year for teams who are perennially better than us. JMO

I don't think I'd want Clowney on a one year deal. We already have Vernon on an expensive one year deal.

The attraction of Clowney is that he's still young; it would be nice to lock up a player of his skills for three, four, five years.

J/c

I dont see us keeping both Vernon and Clowney. Clowney is a bit better IMO

Yeah I know ...
But when you scout or Research a DE what are
The coaches looking for....can he sack or disrupt
The Qb. ?
Can he get the QB to get out of his comfort level. ? Can totally foul up the timing of the drop back ?
It's a passing league . You know that
Vernon really didn't do that at a high level last
Year.

Just curious.....What kind of device do you used to make posts?

Not aimed at me, but I know that my Android phone acts funny when typing into the quick response box (especially if the post gets to be a certain length).

Vernon had one of the best pressure rates in the league last year. Vernon’s problem isn’t his performance it’s his lack of health.

My trusty phone

Vernon was a very good player when healthy. He had to be accounted for. Plus he really does hold the edge very well. That's huge in the run game.

Again folks, getting Clowney on a 3-4 year deal would be an immediate upgrade to the defense and the off-side DE. Paying him 18-19-million at least this year is a wash considering Vernon is scheduled to make 17-million with bonuses (assuming we let him go). Locking Clowney in for another 3-years is smart and eliminates the need at the position for the 4 years. Plus, if the Browns structure it right, Clowney's contract would look exactly like Vernon's where there's no dead money in the final year if they want to release him. Keeping them both (really?) would mean the Browns would have around 35-37 million invested in one position in 2020.

However, the thought process of paying the #8 valued position on the team this kind of money and hedging on going after Trent Williams for the #3 valued position for similar money and years is just plain confusing to me. The Browns have spent the off season upgrading the offense to the level where it might be considered feared in the NFL and we have complaints that a 31-year old 7-year straight Pro Bowl LT is too expensive or old and are thinking the Browns should select any of the 4 tackles deemed 1st rounders of which 2 of them where career RT's in college. Of the other two, 1 has technique issues and weight issues while the other is the only bonafide NFL ready LT in the draft that most likely won't even get to our pick. That said, after investing millions over the last 3-years building a feared veteran offense, posters here are asking the Browns to man the #3 valued position on the team with not only an unproven rookie but maybe even one who hasn't played the position. This is the person who's expected to protect Mayfield's blindside mind you.

All the while the posts keep coming that investing 18-20-million into the #8 valued position or worst yet keeping both players and having 35-37 million invested in the position would be a smart move when the #3 position is hanging open like a hair in a biscuit.

The other issue is that if the Browns follow some of what has been suggested here and sign Clowney, keep Vernon and be locked into taking a OT that may or may not even have played the position, what are the ideas on addressing LB, MLB, S, SS and DT to a lessor extent? Though no guarantee, signing Williams would allow the Browns to address two of those areas with their 1st round and 2nd round picks. Even if Williams is only at 80-90% of what he was in 2018, he would still be heads and heels above an untested 50/50 shot rookie.

Oh one final note on drafting a LT in the draft. For each of you that want to refer back to the Joe Thomas draft, I want to refer you back to the Tony Mandarich draft. Thomas was considered a can't miss but Manadrich was considered the best offensive line prospect ever. We all know the tale of the tape with these two guys and none of the tackles coming out this year have any of the talk that Thomas and Mandarich generated leading into their draft days. Just an observation......

Wasn't Mandarich a Steroids Meathead who was addicted to drugs and alcohol?


I doubt any of these guys have those issues. At this point we know their backgrounds well enough to fall for that

Are you Trent's Agent?

I feel good about Bill Callahan being here to assist in deciding which OT is the one we can and should pick. No offense to those here who have coached, but he is reportedly one of the best, if not THE best OL coach in the league. If Callahan is confident that Wills or Wirfs can man our left tackle spot, that's good enough for me.

How have we faired in trusting our coaching staffs since 1999?

What other option is there?
If you can't trust the person, you shouldn't have hired them.

Well, someone made some pretty good calls picking Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Joel Bitonio, and Mitchell Schwartz, among others. Besides that, I have no problem with having higher expectations from Bill Callahan than some of those slappies.

Agree.

I didn't.

I'll leave it the way I stated it.



I'm not disputing whether or not that's what we'll do. As you said, we have no choice. I'm just questioning the wisdom of fans who seem to think we should trust their decisions.

Well, conversely, whether or not fans trust them is utterly meaningless.

As long as Berry trusts the coach is the only thing that matters.

Actually, whether the player they pick at #10 is a great player or not is the only thing that matters. You know how regimes come and go around here. The only thing that really matters is what we're all left with after they leave.

Yes, that applies as well even though it is completely unrelated to the conversation we were having regarding trusting coaches.

j/c:

I'm not being sarcastic or snarky, but do we even know if Callahan is going to be part of the decision-making draft team?

Since 1995, the Browns are 31st in compensatory picks with 12.....8 of those came in 2016, 2017 under one regime. The other 4 came in 2012.

https://overthecap.com/compensatory-pick-history/

The team with the most is the Ravens with 53.

What was our record during those two years? Those aren't the 1 and 31 years, are they?

Of course, Hue know it was 1-31.

I'm only assuming he will be. He did accompany Berry and Stefanski to the Combine where they observed and interviewed the top OL candidates.

I don't think we *know*, but neither Berry nor Stefanski strike me as the type to not seek input. Everything about them is about getting information and points of view to make decisions as opposed to the typical NFL mindset of "I know better than you" egoism.

Yes, it was, but record has no meaning in that.

Of course it doesn't. Most know that.

I think Stefanski (and Berry) view and value Callahan as a resource. Here's Stef's quote from when Callahan was hired:

"I can't do this thing alone," Stefanski said. "I know that, so I need really good people around me. To have somebody in the office next to me who's been a head coach in college, a head coach in the pros, has seen a lot of the obstacles that come up in the course of a day for a head coach is huge. I can pop in next door and ask him his opinion on a bunch of things and that can inform my decisions moving forward on things big and small."

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/bill-callahan-named-browns-offensive-line-coach

I disagree that there is no correlation between how a team acquires compensatory picks and how it could affect their record.

I'll leave it at that.

Dave, I think that the main decision makers value their coaches input, but I kinda doubt that they help pull the trigger on a pick. I say that because it would behoove each position coach to pimp a player who would play on their unit. One would think that the LBer coach would have a different favorite player than the OL coach. The WR coach would have another. The DL coach another. Etc.

I think their opinions on particular draft eligible players are considered, but I don't think they would actually be part of pulling the trigger on a particular draft slot.

Of course, that is just my opinion and I don't know for sure.

It doesn't matter if you disagree, those thoughts are not germane. The fact is that the goal of those years was the driving factor and nothing else, and the goal was a teardown and acquiring assets. The record was nothing more than incidental.

That's all there is.

Losing guys like Mack, Schwartz, Gipson, etc did not have anything to do w/the record of the next two years? Come on.

All I was trying to say about Callahan was that if there's a decision by the Browns to go OT at #10 (ie, Simmons & Brown are gone), and there are 2 or 3 of the top 4 OTs still available, then Callahan's input would be valuable in making the right choice. If he thinks a college RT (Wills, Wirf) could succeed in the NFL at LT, then I'll feel a lot better about it.

I wasn't trying to belittle your point, Dave. I promise.

It's a sound strategy. Probably one of the reasons we haven't released Vernon at this point. The other is we need to get someone to replace him.

Clowney is a possibility. I have also read we could be a suitor for Yannick Naga...whatever, the Jags DE. I think he is really good, but it would probably cost us a high pick or two. The Jags have franchised him and the player and agent want to be traded.

I am pretty good with the brains we have at the top. I am sure they have discussed all the future contracts and how we can maneuver to get them signed. I don't think we will get stuck in check-mate anytime soon.

Yannick would be a great add.

Just a question. If we keep Vernon, then let him sign elsewhere next off season. Is his comp pick based on what we were paying him or what his new team pays him? He's not going to get $18 mil a year with the next club.


My point is I might keep him over Clowney if the $18 is the figure. If not, I sign Clowney.


If we can sign Yannick, I cut Vernon before the ink is dry on Yannicks contract.

Consult the homeless guy maybe? Still a bizarre story. Nobody accuse you of worshipping analytics either.

Seriously, listen to anybody that can help. But we need some wins this year. Significant wins.

I never thought you were. Just trying to be clear, because I felt like Pit was - IMO - minimizing Callahan's input with his "How has that worked out for us since '99?" post in regards to assistant coaches being assets in talent eval. I'm not here looking for arguments or conflict. Just bored [bleep]less and a bit depressed due to current events ... no worries.

did your hero get a pick for Schwartz? ...

Hue know that ... ... that was funny ...

IF Callaghan has zero input with our OL picks Andy and Kev can tear there Ivy League diplomas Up or use them for toilet paper ... that’d be plain flat out STUPID!!!

I hear you. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't coming across as insulting your opinion. Hang in there, Dave.

I think I am a good writer, but somehow, my messages get misconstrued.

I didn't mean to imply that Callahan wouldn't have any input. Hell, I thought I even said that they probably consulted him on the OL guys. I think I mentioned the LBer and DL coaches being consulted. I think I even put "etc."

I was talking about pulling the trigger on draft day. I would get opinions from all my position coaches, but I sure as hell would not have them sitting in on making the final decisions.

I wonder if that is clear?

Let me try this..........Say Simmons is on the board at 10 and let's pretend that Callahan has Andrew Thomas as his top-rated LT and he is also on the board. Would you allow either of positional coaches to be part of which guy to pick? Or, would you have already considered their advice and made your own Big Board and draft your highest rated player?

In your scenario ... the positional coaches shouldn’t be involved in that decision cause you have your big board and go with that ...

Its hard to communicate on here ... i took u literally ...

Ranking the LT’s and the rest of the OLman I want Callahan all over that big board .... just like every other position coach ... Bill gets added weight to what he says cause of his experience and rep ...

Then when u move to the teams big board .... they may not even find out what it is .. *L* ..

Yeah, I seriously doubt that they'd be pulling the trigger. I mean, I guess if you have a situation where you have 2 players of the same position ranked pretty closely, the tie would go to the position coach, but even then I'd imagine that decision is made prior to Draft Day.