I'm putting myself out there for the year on paper before practices and pre-season.
It appears we have a linebacker core that is the worst in the NFL. They are all retreads or unknowns.
Projected starters would be Bj Goodson at the WLB possibly Jacob Phillips. with Robert McCray and Trevon Young backing up Mack Wilson at MLB and Jermaine Grace as the backup Taki Taki at SLB. Tae Davis and Willie Harvey as the backups.
Wilson does have that Junkyard dog mentality (see his deleted twitter post) https://twitter.com/JRown32/status/1195428203994767362/photo/1 He wants to be "the guy" I just don't know if he is. I would love for him and the others to go to the next 11 Pro Bowls. We also know as fans that is more not the case than the case. He is the best of the bunch. He is an 8 in a group of 4's so it's very hard to judge if he is an 8 or if he is a 6.
Goodson has been a starter, so to speak. He has definitely found a way not to make tackles or plays. He started 9 games last year and made 37 tackles. Those are good starts for a DT, they are terrible stats for an SLB. Maybe it was the scheme, maybe it wasn't. I guess we will find out. Maybe Phillips will take his spot or maybe he will step it up.
Taki Taki is the biggest unknown. 1 game started and only played 10% of Defensive snaps taken. Not exactly a lot to go on here.
Depth our depth is not exactly inspiring. - I don't see much to discuss. Maybe I will be surprised.
I'm to the point where I'd rather play with 6 DB's and 5 DL than trot our this sacrificial joke of an LB group. Maybe we could go 5 DB's 1 LB and 5 DL. The way the FO has been signing DB's and DL it looks like the team thinks that too LOL Either way, it's not great.
There appears to be some talent left on the free market with players like Clay Matthews Ogletree, Darron Lee, Nigel Bradham, Kendricks, Woodyard, Barron, Burfict.
Should we be trading picks in next year's draft and looking under every rock?
I would be shocked if we didn’t sign a veteran or two before the season starts. This group just isn’t good enough right now. There are way too many unknowns.
I believe picking up a vet LB to mentor our guys is the way to go. We have potential with this group but we could use a "coach on the field" so to speak.
I get the feeling that we are filling the baskets up front and in back. Our D will be all about creating quick, violent pressure while stopping the run up front, and then having a rock star secondary on the back end.
In between, while they aren't an afterthought, we'll be investing less heavily in LBers and perhaps instead being more creative (the whole extra safety vs a LB thing).
In short, the LBers are there mostly as pass rushers and run stoppers, and less so about stopping the pass and looking more to the secondary for that help.
I would be shocked if we didn’t sign a veteran or two before the season starts. This group just isn’t good enough right now. There are way too many unknowns.
Then why are these players on the team, and the players from a few years ago, who could play, are no longer?
We have to sign a vet IMO. Bradham may be a choice
I could of sworn we were interested him early in FA...I recall seeing something about him.
I am in hopes, we are waiting for veterans to drop their asking price...Which they usually do after the draft concludes.
I wouldn't mind Bradham, Ogletree, or Avery Williamson.
I know Williamson is still with the Jets, However it was mentioned several weeks ago...that he may be a cap casualty (Jets are deep at MLB, His contract is big and he tore his ACL- I believe early in preseason last year)
As it stands on paper, or LB core looks somewhat like the Bengals core last year...that's not good
I get the feeling that we are filling the baskets up front and in back. Our D will be all about creating quick, violent pressure while stopping the run up front, and then having a rock star secondary on the back end.
In between, while they aren't an afterthought, we'll be investing less heavily in LBers and perhaps instead being more creative (the whole extra safety vs a LB thing).
Couldnt have said it better. Would we like better LB's? sure but this is what we currently have and how we are going to work with it.
I believe Mack Wilson will make a huge leap in 2020. He will be a Pro Bowl linebacker in the near future. I was confident when the Browns made that pick. He showed it in Pre season but should have had more time to develop behind Christian Kirksey. He got hurt early in the season and I think Mack was rushed into full time duty earlier than he was ready. I think he will be our most improved returning player in 2020 and a fan favorite.
I think this desire for wanting an immediate answer at LB is a little over the top. You have to give our young guys a chance. There is no way they can grow if they don't see the field. Despite the uncertainty, our LBs are in a VERY good situation. They have an outstanding d-line in front of them with Garrett, Vernon, Obunjobi, and Richardson, and a very talented secondary behind them. They are being put in a situation to succeed.
Mack is going to be a key player to this defense, and I think a year from now we'll all be talking about how we need to extend his deal. Between the other LB position, there is less certainty, but between Goodson, Taki, and Phillips, I think we'll be okay.
Turk, if you looked at all 90+ starting linebackers in the nfl, I wonder how many walked out of college, started and performed at a high level, and how many spent a year or two playing part time, learning and developing their craft. Seems like we have a tendency to proclaim rookies garbage if they are not great from play one. Most need some time.
I feel the bigger question is do we have enough LB'ers from a depth standpoint for the position.
Sure we have enough names on the roster at the position, but how much will we lose at the position when they come into the line up? LB'er isn't an every down position. They rotate in and out of the game.
You are certainly correct in the need to develop your roster, but with two second year LB'er and journeymen playing behind them, do we have enough adequate LB'ers to service the position come game day? In my opinion, no.
I feel the bigger question is do we have enough LB'ers from a depth standpoint for the position.
Sure we have enough names on the roster at the position, but how much will we lose at the position when they come into the line up? LB'er isn't an every down position. They rotate in and out of the game.
You are certainly correct in the need to develop your roster, but with two second year LB'er and journeymen playing behind them, do we have enough adequate LB'ers to service the position come game day? In my opinion, no.
I agree with you. IMO we need to bring in a veteran to the room, hopefully one that is a starter. I don’t feel comfortable with all of the youth we have in the room.
I would love to see the Browns sign Mathews, and not just for the sentimentality of the name. I think Clay jr can help the rest of the LB unit gel with his experience and mentorship.
Who do you love? Clay Matthews has sentimental appeal to me. We haven't has real nasty LB play for awhile and it has shown up regularly. Which vets might best get this unit off the field and stall the chains?
I saw that Michael Kendricks is available. Just looked it up today.
He looked good (two?) years ago here. Maybe we could sign him to a one year contract or something. He's a very versatile LB for whatever we need
Has he been sentenced yet?
Free agent linebacker Mychal Kendricks had his federal sentencing for pleading guilty to insider trading charges postponed for a sixth time, according to Ben Arthur of SeattlePI.com.
The new sentencing date is May 29.
The original date for sentencing was Jan. 23, 2019 with the subsequent postponements now having delayed the process a full 18 months. The charge Kendricks pleaded guilty to in September 2018 carries a maximum sentence of 25 years in prison. A co-defendant in the case with Kendricks, Damilare Sonoiki, reportedly was sentenced to three years probation.
Kendricks was accused of making nearly $1.2 million in illegal profits on four investments four years ago. The linebacker admitted wrongdoing in a statement and cooperated with the investigation.
Kendricks was released by the Cleveland Browns shortly after he admitted to the crimes in August 2018. The Seattle Seahawks signed him in September 2018 and he’s spent the last two seasons with the team. He’s appeared in just 18 total games over that span as an eight-game suspension was levied for the guilty plea in 2018 before a broken leg ended his season in his first game back. Kendricks appeared in 14 games last year before a torn ACL in the final game of the regular season ended his year.
First, I think we are going to see a lot of 5-6 DB sets. Just the way the game is going, so the value of LB's has been diminished to some degree. That is why a guy like Simmons is so coveted. Kind of a hybrid player. It's why I kind of wish we still had Peppers. He fits that mold.
My other thought is now that the draft is over, we can catch our breath and go back to free agents. I don't think we are done on that front, and now that the draft is over, the guys still without a team aren't going to be asking for the moon. It's dollars ands sense time now. Do the dollars and player fit make sense?
Take Matthews Jr. Beyond being a good story, he is still a pretty good player who would be a upgrade for a few years.
If the dollars make sense and the fit makes sense, go ahead and throw a little up front money on a easy 3 year deal.
You can't fix everything in one off season, and losing Shobert didn't take us from a great linebacking room to a weak room. We were still pretty weak with him.
Hopefully the front office has a plan, there is a limit to the money spent on players, S could cover, but we were near the bottom in run D- LBs own a lot of that. We need to pay G soon so going young AND hoping for better OVERALL D could happen....Go Browns!!!
On paper, it's one of the worst units in the league for sure.
The more I think about it, while it remains an uncertainty, the less deeply I'm concerned about it.
In the end, the LBers are going to be as good or as bad as the DLine in front of them. An improved rotation up front should help things a LOT.
Scho was great in coverage, but he struggled with getting caught in traffic and stopping the run. I think the young kids are/will be better in that regard. It will possibly come at the cost of not being as good in coverage, but if choosing between pass coverage and run stopping, I'd rather my LBers skill set lean toward stuffing the run.
As for bringing in a veteran, I think to do that we might end up having to let one of the young kids walk... I don't think I feel good about that. I don't know how many we currently have or how many we tend to carry on the roster, however. Aside from that, however, there simply aren't any LBers available that are both 3-down types, isn't a 3-4 tweener type, AND is 30 years of age or younger. It would be a great story to have Clay, III here, but he's 34 and definitely is not what he used to be. Aside from him, there just isn't anyone that hasn't been franchised. Given that, I don't see us bringing anyone in.
Baltimore is the living and breathing example of a franchise committed to stopping the run. They are nearly always a competitive football team. The Browns have been living in half measures for two decades.
In the end, the LBers are going to be as good or as bad as the DLine in front of them.
I think that's it in a nutshell. With help these guys will probably be adequate with the potential to improve and grow significantly. With a healthy DL - and as good as ours is on paper when healthy - the LBers *should* be okay or possibly better. But what team and what unit on any team is healthy all season long? It's definitely a risk/area of concern.
If anything, I think last year showed how 'precarious' (if that's the right word) that approach can be. We started the year with (at least, what we thought was) an embarrassment of riches at Dline, and our defense depended on that. What followed was some of that Dline talent not playing up to snuff, and combining that with losing dline bodies to trade/injury, our defense kinda went down the crapper (and the D never even met the level of dominance that it was supposed to).
I think the biggest problem - aside from losing our best player for half the season over a brainfart - was that the drop off in talent behind our starters was so significant. When we lost both Vernon AND Garrett, we were hosed. Offenses didn't have to do anything special at all to keep our DLine at bay. They could focus all their attention on our guys in the middle and the guys on the ends were left on an island... and regularly left gambling and losing on which gap to take. I can't even count how many times I saw our DE shift outside just before the snap, vacating the very gap the RB ended up going through. He was then easily taken out of the play, sealed outside, by their OT. I mean, it happened so often, the tin foil wearing types would have to call it planned.
Schobert is gone. How much of a loss is that? Personally, I think his play was overrated. Against the run he was below average IMO Against the pass, I think he was overrated a lot by this board. Yes he had 4 interceptions but half were of deflections If he was so good in coverage, why do we get abused by opposing TE's every year?
What we lose with Scho being gone is his brain. He clearly was the on field coach of the defense. Not the easiest thing to replace but doesn't have to be a linebacker. Before Joe we had a deficit but the last guy who could handle it was that slow safety a few years prior -Brian Russell maybe?
Now if Wilson and Taki improve any, then our Lb corp may actually be better than it has been
I think the biggest problem - aside from losing our best player for half the season over a brainfart - was that the drop off in talent behind our starters was so significant. When we lost both Vernon AND Garrett, we were hosed. Offenses didn't have to do anything special at all to keep our DLine at bay. They could focus all their attention on our guys in the middle and the guys on the ends were left on an island... and regularly left gambling and losing on which gap to take. I can't even count how many times I saw our DE shift outside just before the snap, vacating the very gap the RB ended up going through. He was then easily taken out of the play, sealed outside, by their OT. I mean, it happened so often, the tin foil wearing types would have to call it planned.
I think part of the problem was scheme and coaching. One of the things that Takitaki mentioned during his recent interview is that the new defense is simpler and will allow him to play faster. I think Wilks defense was pretty complicated especially for being new for everyone. It doesn't help that we seemed to be rolling new players into it about every week.
Our safety play was also somewhat suspect (especially later in the season) which may have contributed to some hesitancy with the young LBs. They didn't have a very good safety net behind them. Thinking too much about assignments and worrying about mistakes seemed to slow them down.
Hopefully this staff will have Takitaki playing more aggressively. (And the DL will be more disciplined in front of him.)
I should've mentioned this during my last post, but I have no idea what type of defense we're going to be running. I don't know how much the scheme requires of its LBs.
I should've mentioned this during my last post, but I have no idea what type of defense we're going to be running. I don't know how much the scheme requires of its LBs.
I don't know, either, so I'm just ASSuming that we'll be built a bit like San Fran; beastly DLine, rock star secondary. Other than Kwon Alexander, are their LBers really all that? I'd say probably not. It is for this reason that I still like the Clowney idea. If you think Armstead and Bosa were a great pair, just imagine Garrett & Clowney with Vernon rotating in.
Is he that good, or is he that good in that environment? I mean, he was a 3rd rounder just two years ago where he was projected to be a fourth rounder in a weak linebacker draft. One site I'm looking at had him rated as the 14th best LB that year.
So, how much is him, and how much is having that sort of DLine in front and that secondary behind him?
Edit: Just food for thought... and also a genuine question. How much is him and how much is the environment he gets to operate in?
One thing of note to me is that in reading the one draft profile, he kinda sounded a bit like the kid we just took. Hard-hitter in the run game, etc...
One thing of note to me is that in reading the one draft profile, he kinda sounded a bit like the kid we just took. Hard-hitter in the run game, etc...
I'm actually comparing the draft profiles of the two right now, and they are crazily similar.
Measureables in terms of both body size and Combine numbers are almost literally identical. So close it's crazy. Warner is a little quicker/agile while Phillips is more explosive. Same height, but Warner was a little heavier coming out, but Phillips has longer arms & larger hands.
I don't have the answer to that, Purp, but I want to complement you on what I feel is a really telling question whose answer will be valuable. This isn't a quick gloss, I suspect, and the answer will have elements of both. FWIW, I want to stress that I do not see this pair excluding one another.
I think this is validation that our Defense is not going to have a major interest in LBs. As was mentioned by a poster or two we will stack up our Defense with DL talent and put our depth not in LB but in those hybrid Safety LB around the league, We are carrying 5 safeties currently Delpit probably our best talent there. We have two LB who are in that hybrid status.
Takitaki I thought played a lot more at the end of the season, not sure if that playing time was earned or just that of necessity. But he did show improvement at the very end of the season I went from man, why did we pick this guy to hey this kid has some game.
It not that we are without talent but we got so much youth at the position and we are counting on a lot of improvement as they enter their 2nd season. We are talking about 4 young LBs.
What value will Goodson provide???
I think the lack of investment into the position on a whole dictates to us FANS our lack of reliance of that position in our NEW Defense.
Hasaan Reddick is the only LB that catches my eye there, but even then, I'd rather just give the guys we have a fair shot and see if they can step up to the call. I believe Mack, Taki, and Phillips can hold their own.
I hope they’re wrong about us getting rid of Mitchell.
Yeah, it doesn't make much sense. I ready that and my first thought was that they were obligated to pick someone from every team. Unless both Green and Houston (UDFAs) knock it out of the pack, I don't see us just dumping him - even then, his salary is reasonable and we have cap space.
I see it as a reporter was given an assignment to list each team's most likely roster cut. He did what research he could in the time allotted and made his best guesses. Some teams are probably more accurate than others.
I hope they’re wrong about us getting rid of Mitchell.
Same here, I think the reporter basically had a formula set up and that is Most money to somebody not starting which he has penciled in Greedy Williams - But its an important position and Mitchell is Good, not great but good. You don't get rid of your #2 or #3 CB - not in the NFL. And as mentioned we are sound in the Cap department so there is no desperation for us to cut some money, Mitchell just fit in their formula.
I hope they’re wrong about us getting rid of Mitchell.
Same here, I think the reporter basically had a formula set up and that is Most money to somebody not starting which he has penciled in Greedy Williams - But its an important position and Mitchell is Good, not great but good. You don't get rid of your #2 or #3 CB - not in the NFL. And as mentioned we are sound in the Cap department so there is no desperation for us to cut some money, Mitchell just fit in their formula.
jmho
Considering the source ... I wouldn't give it a second thought.
Your really rolling the dice when you March Out 4 very young LBers without a proven playmaker out there amongst team. Your betting they will all emerge and become These sideline to sideline great in space LBers. Last time I checked teams still attack the seams And the 2nd level in many ways. Once again no matter the regime the Browns Still have a bottom 5 in the NFL LBing Core Who's gonna make the Hall of Shame this year and Have his bust beside Chaun Thompson Wali Rainer Scooby Wright Jason Trusnik?
You can turn it round - this is a chance for one or two to grab a chance and make a name for themselves. There are plenty of examples of late round and undrafted players who make it and become good players - grab the opportunity dawgs. Success, at this level, is as much mental as it is physical.
With the new Cleveland Browns front office relying on analytics, here's an analytical look at the Browns linebacker group.
A new NFL season is slowly approaching and the Cleveland Browns are poised to bring the city of Cleveland its first winning season since 2007. With last year’s disappointing performance behind them, the Browns made some improvements on both sides of the ball this offseason. The team looks as good on paper as any other team in the NFL. The only question is: “Will this new coaching staff and front office be able to bring success to this organization who is desperate for a winner?”
A new general manager in Andrew Berry hopes to bring an analytical approach to the game in the front office while new head coach Kevin Stefanski brings in new schemes on both sides of the ball. These two showed synergy during free agency and the draft process and if it continues, we should expect some success on the football field come game day.
Keeping in tradition with the new “nerdy” front office built on analytics, let’s take an analytical look at each of the Browns positions to take a more in-depth look to see how successful these players were last season and make predictions on success for this next season. Also, some suggestions on where there need to be improvements. This will range each position on the team with the exception of kickers and punters.
One position group of the Browns is particularly young and doesn’t have much experience with the exception of one newly added veteran is the linebacker group. Former Brown Joe Schobert left the team in free agency and has left a big hole to fill in the Browns defense. Let’s take a look at this young linebacker corps and see who will see the field and potentially make an impact or who needs more time to develop their craft.
Here’s a name not many people would recognize. Solomon Ajayi is an undrafted rookie out of Liberty University. He is actually the younger brother of running back Jay Ajayi. As an undrafted rookie, Ajayi will have to show he has the skills to make it in an NFL defense.
Ajayi had over two years of playing time at Liberty. In 2018, he accumulated 73 tackles, 40 of those being solo tackles. With two forced fumbles, two fumble recoveries, and two interceptions as well, Ajayi maintained his dominance on Liberty’s defense. In 2019, Ajayi led the Independent conference tackles, making 91 total tackles and 47 of them were solo. While he only had one forced fumble and no interceptions, he still proved he was able to bring down runners and fly around the ball.
Ajayi is far from a complete prospect. Crazy things have happened before but being an undrafted rookie means you have a long way to go to see the field of play. Stefanski and staff will be tasked with how to place him in this defense. He is very raw and isn’t in a position to see the field for a majority of snaps.
He showed the ability to stuff the holes in run plays but isn’t big enough to shake off most linemen and can get bullied. We’ll see what happens with him in camp and preseason. Maybe he’ll make a name for himself like last year's preseason story, Damon Sheehy-Guiseppi.
B.J. Goodson, Fifth year: 6-foot-1, 241 pounds
B.J. Goodson is another new face signed by the new regime. Goodson is a 2016 fourth round pick by the New York Giants and last year played for the Green Bay Packers. Believe it or not, Goodson will have the most amount of experience in the linebacker room come season start.
After not playing his rookie year, his next two seasons saw him play about 40 percent of defensive snaps. In 2018, Goodson played in 15 games, starting 13, and had 61 tackles in which 44 of them were solo. He added two interceptions to his stat line and played 47 percent of total defensive snaps for the Giants.
Goodson spent this past season with the Packers and saw significantly less playing time. He played about half the snaps he did from the previous year, bringing his snap count percentage to only 24 percent. Playing 15 games and starting in nine, Goodson had 37 tackles, 23 of which were solo. His missed tackle percentage is low, however, as over the past two seasons, he’s only missed 6.35 percent of tackle attempts.
Goodson not playing a lot of snaps for Green Bay last season may be a red flag, but you can’t deny his experience. Considering how truly young this unit is, they can use someone like him as a seasoned veteran.
Goodson certainly has the frame and build for a linebacker, but depending on how aggressive new defensive coordinator Joe Woods is with his 4-3 scheme, we’ll see if Goodson's used as a middle or as an outside backer. His stats shine when he plays middle, so hopefully that’s where he finds his footing and position come training camp.
Jacob Phillips, Rookie: 6-foot-3, 229 pounds
Jacob Phillips is one of the many players taken in this year’s draft and he just so happened to fall into the Browns lap. Taken in the third round, the expectation for him is to fill the hole that Schobert has left. If he plays as he did in college, that expectation may become a reality.
Phillips played for three years at LSU and started in 2018 and 2019. His numbers are outstanding, to say the least. In 2018, the LSU product had 87 total tackles in which 32 of them were solo. He even had a pick-six during the season as well.
His numbers improved in 2019, as he had 113 total tackles, 56 of which were solo. In both of those starting seasons, he led the SEC in assisted tackles. Phillips even lead the conference in total tackles in 2019 and was fifth with his solo tackles. Knowing how good the SEC means that those feats are true accomplishments.
Phillips is built like a physical NFL linebacker with a 4.60 40-time to back it up. He helped lead on one of the better defenses in college football last year and was able to continue to produce even when the schedule became more difficult. If one of his teammates needs help with a tackle or is holding the runner up, Phillips is sure going to be there to finish the job.
He does not miss tackles and has proven to be productive. As he heads into camp, he needs to work on his coverage skills, as that was a big knock on him. He will also need to adjust to the speed of the NFL. He’s going to have to be able to play smart, fast, and confident if he wants to beat run-heavy and physical teams like the Ravens and Steelers two times a year.
Sione Takitaki, Second year: 6-foot-1, 238 pounds
Sione Takitaki seems to be in a weird place with his NFL job. Being drafted in the third round, in what experts said was “a little high,” Takitaki was drafted by the old regime. Unfortunately for him, he doesn’t have much to show in his rookie campaign.
Takitaki played in 15 games this past year but only started in one. He mostly played special teams, however, as he played 57 percent of the special teams snaps and only about 100 defensive snaps. Of those snaps, he only made 21 tackles, including 14 solo tackles.
Other than that, there isn’t much to say besides him having a low missed tackle percentage of only 4.5 percent, but since he played so little of actual defense, it's hard to really get a read on if it’s actually that low. It’s hard to truly see how Takitaki will make an impact or mark on the team.
Takitaki is still raw and will have to improve his skills in order to see the field more. He often over pursues his target, but does fly all around the field. Training camp is approaching and offseason workout sessions are starting soon, so this new regime should be getting a good glance at him.
It's hard to know what this regime will think of him, however. Preseason will be the true determining factor if he sees the playing field more. If he plays well, there’s a chance he will. But if he struggles, he could be left in the dust.
Mack Wilson, Second year: 6--foot-1, 240 pounds
Mack Wilson was a hidden gem in last year's draft. The more comfortable he was with the scheme and playbook, the better he played throughout 2019. He is the only returning starter in the position group, but his skills are far from being fully developed.
Last season, Wilson played an outstanding 89 percent of the defensive snaps. Being a fifth round pick and nearly playing every snap says a lot about his ability. Wilson gathered 82 total tackles, 57 of those being solo. He also added a forced fumble and an interception to his rookie campaign as well.
One aspect that he desperately needs to improve upon is his pass coverage. He was targeted 69 times and gave up 49 completions for 471 yards, giving up two touchdowns as well. Wilson certainly has the experience from last year, but with a new defensive coordinator, he has a chance to assert himself as the top dawg.
Wilson played well overall in his rookie campaign. He really turned heads in the preseason, which led him into playing in the majority of the regular season. He did get killed in pass coverage last year, but he is a solid tackler and can analyze the offense well.
With the addition of another physical linebacker in Phillips, Wilson has the potential to improve and reach another level of play. In the AFC North, you have to play physical and if Wilson continues to do so, he can be difficult to stop in the next few years.
It sounded like it was written by a dude on a message board rather than a professional journalist.
Exactly what it is, Why is that a problem?
Trust me, I know Professional Journalism... and LB's
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To me, additional info - even if its only one man's opinion - is always appreciated. Posters are all free to read or ignore as they see fit. In this case, I don't necessarily share the author's high opinion of Mack Wilson. I was especially disappointed in his performance vs Cinci in the finale last year - Joe Mixon made him look like a freshman vs the varsity squad.
Is there something in there that is blatantly incorrect? Or is this just another 'kill the messenger' thing? It may be light on details, but no where did I read that he was pretending to know the details - or even cover the details. More like a status report.
I thought the '89% of snaps' thing for Wilson was interesting...and Phillips maybe grew 2" since being drafted.
Keep 'em coming...I don't mind reading these things and I pay less attention to who wrote them that what is said. It is - after all - the internet.
It's not a problem. As in.........I have no problem w/you posting it. That wasn't my intention. I just thought that the evidence the guy provided didn't support analytical thinking.
I hope it is not a problem to voice my opinion on an article?
Quote:
Trust me, I know Professional Journalism... and LB's
Ahhh...........still grinding that axe. Reminds me of a Pink Floyd song........Careful With That Axe, Eugene.
It not that we are without talent but we got so much youth at the position and we are counting on a lot of improvement as they enter their 2nd season.
Boy if that doesn't about sum up the Cleveland Browns for the last 17 years. Any postion. You'd a thought there'd be more than 3 drafted players that would not make the team, in all those years. (maybe there were, I can't think of them)
Ton of youth, inexperience, Brand new coaches, and a ton of cap space, tried and true formulas; year after year.
I have no problem with MW and our LB corps overall proving us wrong. I can see how Mack takes all this talk personally, as he is probably the most talented LB in the room, now.
I think we have a lot of young, raw talent that can eventually be formed into capable unit... but historically we just haven't been able to do that in such a short amount of time.
I have no problem with MW and our LB corps overall proving us wrong. I can see how Mack takes all this talk personally, as he is probably the most talented LB in the room, now.
I think we have a lot of young, raw talent that can eventually be formed into capable unit... but historically we just haven't been able to do that in such a short amount of time.
don't get me wrong, I want him to prove me wrong. I also wish my rusted out 2002 Nissan maxima was a Ferarri F40. But, it's not. LOL
I do expect the unit to struggle, honestly. At best, we have a lot of unknowns there this year. Mack played decent but had his struggles. Schobert and Kirksey are gone. I get the arguments about value, but we are less talented at LB without Schobert. I hope they prove me wrong, but fronting on Twitter about it won’t do it.
Yeah, Schobert at least gave us a vet presence. He’s been a controversial topic ... some feel he’s way underrated and some feel the opposite haha.
I also agree about the social media stuff .. I think a lot of us are tired of the talk with little production. Just win.
My feeling if half the people think he was underrated, and half feel he was overrated, that makes him a average Joe.
Joe was very good in coverage for a linebacker. He wasn't the best at stopping the run. I think it boiled down to two things. We decided stopping the run was more important for a backer than coverage ability. Money also played a part.
I am sure we talked to his agent. They knew the range we would be willing to pay and we knew what they were thinking, and it just wasn't going to match.
Add in the NFL is more and more going 5 DB's a great deal of the time, that makes being a rangy run stopper all the more important, something Joe was not.
You have to see trends. LB is becoming a devalued position much like running back has. Run stopping is the key for those guys, coverage isn't.
If you want coverage skills, put a safety or corner on the guy.
Thanks for saying hey on another thread .... its great to see u around again and all grown up with kids of your own ... good for u my friend ... very happy for u as it appears your a fine young man ...
I think this group is going to surprise for a few reasons ....
1. The bars not that high for them in two ways ...
- We can bemoan the loss of Kirksey and Joe all we want ... the end result wasn’t very good ... our run D was bad and it may have been the DL’s fault but so what ... for the most part our LBers were invisible in the run game unless it was Joe making a tackle after a 4 or 5 yard gain with the runner ALWAYS falling forward ... Joe dies not shed blocks well and is not a good tackler ... Kirksey was hardly ever on the field so he will almost literally not be missed ...
Bottom line is regardless of how u personally saw Joe the results were not good in either the run or pass game ... our LBer’s have underperformed in the scope of the teams success ...
- the expectations just aren’t that high for this group ... no need to elaborate on this one ...
2. Wilson should have been in college last year ... instead he was gaining invaluable experience after being thrown to the wolves last year ... he had more ups than downs but he did flash ... dudes got a shot to be good ... he could have been a 1st rnd pick this year if he stood in school .... he also has a chip on his shoulder ...
3, the biggest jump players make is usually between years 1 and 2 ... that all i got for TakiTaki ... *L* ...
This group is definitely unknown and lacks names but I’m optimistic about them ...
When the news came out that Joe said Dorsey and company hadn't spoken to Joe about a new contract, there were people on this board complaining how he was "dropping the ball" and how dumb it was. Those complaints have magically vaporized into the whiff of a distant memory. Diam, I am not putting you into that category.
Now, the talk is that he wasn't very good and won't be missed. The following grades are from different years. I didn't bother to categorize them. Joe's PFF grade was down last year, but overall, he has graded very, very high. I will post three of those grades, so as to not clog the board. However, I am willing to post more of the grades per user request. Just let me know, because the high grades do exist.
Take a look and see if you still think he was so ineffective...
there were people on this board complaining how he was "dropping the ball" and how dumb it was. Those complaints have magically vaporized into the whiff of a distant memory
Only if you have selective memory those have "magically vaporized", because plenty of people have opined negatively that Schobert walking was a lack of action from Dorsey last season and/or are upset that he simply isn't here, regardless of how it went down. What was even more upsetting is Joe's quote that he knew he was out of Cleveland as a result and there really wasn't much of a chance to retain him once the new year started.
But hey, here you go creating something out of nothing......again.
Diam, do you remember the Steeler game last year when Myles had the helmet thing going on?
Lost in that game, was how well Schobert played. He had a sack, seven solo tackles, two tackles for a loss, two interceptions and four pass deflections. He was all over the field, making play after play after play. We held the Steelers to 7 points in that game.
Unlike some, I am not excusing either Dorsey or the new FO. I think they both failed. I am not sure why Dorsey didn't try and start the proceedings of a new contract w/Joe during the season? Perhaps, he wanted to wait until after the season........but, the fact that Joe said they hadn't even spoken is a pretty bad sign. Thus, I think he deserves some of the blame. I also put blame on the new FO, because they had plenty of time to get a deal done w/Joe. The excuse that they didn't have enough time is a joke. Did Jax have more time to get a deal done than our new FO? The answer is "NO!"
I think both Dorsey and Berry made a mistake in not keeping Joe. I know you are on this positive kick again, but bro, reality is still something to consider.
I’ve become optimistic, not stupid ... *L* ... I am fully aware of reality ... just as i was last year before the season ... i also understand this is stretching the limits of optimism vs reality but its how i choose to view things .... hopefully this year the isle of optimism fairs much better than fantasy island ... *L* ... ‘ I'm not a fan of PFF .. I’ve never used them good or bad ... I blame both regimes equally In that i think they saw the same things in Joe and came to the sa,e conclusion ... just blaming KJ is simply 100% biased agenda BS that makes no sense ...
As for Joe ... he is not a good tackler and he does not shed blocks well ... not good traits for a LBer ... Joe’s not good against the run IMO .. do u disagree? ...
I’m not trying to change your mind ... just trying to point out there’s two sides to this coin and i don’t believe its as black and white as u do ... add that to the optimistic poster i now am and the fact Joes not here and thats how the math works out to me ..
I don't have a Browns jersey. I was thinking about getting one. I decided I wanted a Schobert jersey. I knew the contract was in the the wind. So I held off waiting for a decision.
Frankly, I was pissed. Schobert to me represents what a team looks for. A mid round pick that develops into a team leader.
The Browns had the money to sign him. They had the need to keep a veteran leader in that position group. In my mind it would have represented how the team supports those who develop and perform by signing him to a fair deal.
I don't get why he was not signed. I agree Vers it was a failure by both management groups.
When you watched the difference between when he was hurt and he missed games to when he played; it was dramatic.
Was Schobert a candidate for first team all Pro every year? No.
He was a good player who lead the defense and was an excellent coverage linebacker.
Unless they add a like type talent. He will be sorely missed.
I am not saying PFF is gospel. I think it's a helpful guide or tool. I actually starting paying for one of their premium services. But, I have no problem if you don't like them.
I think Joe's tackling was compromised when he was asked to lose weight by GW. He could be stronger. I think he avoids blocks well. I am not sure if I posted this one, but he was ranked very high on "first contact" hits. I do think the weight loss really helped w/his pass coverage abilities. To be frank, defending the pass is more important in today's game. I will also say that Ogunjobi's play in front of Joe was a factor. He got manhandled too often and blockers were able to reach the second level.
I don't see this as either one of us trying to change the other's mind. It's just a football conversation w/out the BS. In the end, I think we had the money and he is the kind of guy you want to keep. A mid-round pick who has exceeded his draft status. A guy who calls the defenses, is very smart, a hard-working leader who made the team better when he was on the field. Our D got much worse when he was hurt. I think we had the money and I am not throwing a temper tantrum about it, but I disagree w/both Dorsey and Berry for not doing more to keep this guy, especially considering who we have to replace him.
I am upset they let Schobert go. He was very good, especially in coverage.
That said, does anyone actually think Kirksey will be missed? No way was he worth $7 million when he can't stay healthy, and he was possibly above average at best. He wasn't remotely close to even Schobert, so I have no issues with him being gone.
I always liked Schobert - from the beginning of course what else is new. But I get a good feeling for LBs from Wisconsin in general. Joe was never great but he worked hard and was smart, I didn't like the fact we were not high on him Dorsey and then the new guys. But I understood several things.
1. Our 4-3 and often 4-2 defense, the LBs were not impact players the concentration is about the DL. For years I think all except in the beginning but when Butch got canned we switched to a 3-4 Defense and mentally as fans we have come to cherish the Impact of the LBS...in the 4-3 however there is lesss Impact and now with the use of a 4-2 adding another DB in the base D its even less of an Impact.
2. Mack Wilson was a steal and he is the guy who will provide more Impact than Joe. At least our staff feels that is the case.
3. The money it was going to take to keep Joe and his overall value just didn't make sense. 10 mil plus. per season. We have to be cautious on who we offer 2nd contract to as shamefully in the past since 1999 we rarely came to that fork in the road as we had few successes..
But there are several positions. OGs, LBs, RBs, SSs, TEs, that are common in accessing them in FA or in the draft. They are not rare and I understand why we didn't pursue Joe. I wish he was here as I said, I really liked him but I don't think we will be hurt by this decision.
jmho - now if he was a Kuechely type of talent those are the exceptions.
I don't have a Browns jersey. I was thinking about getting one. I decided I wanted a Schobert jersey. I knew the contract was in the the wind. So I held off waiting for a decision.
Frankly, I was pissed. Schobert to me represents what a team looks for. A mid round pick that develops into a team leader.
The Browns had the money to sign him. They had the need to keep a veteran leader in that position group. In my mind it would have represented how the team supports those who develop and perform by signing him to a fair deal.
I don't get why he was not signed. I agree Vers it was a failure by both management groups.
When you watched the difference between when he was hurt and he missed games to when he played; it was dramatic.
Was Schobert a candidate for first team all Pro every year? No.
He was a good player who lead the defense and was an excellent coverage linebacker.
Unless they add a like type talent. He will be sorely missed.
I think it is telling two front offices came to the same conclusion. He wasn't worth the minimum bid.
I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ...
I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ...
I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ...
I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ...
I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ...
I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ...
Regarding Mack...forget even what you and I think. What is obvious is that our Coaching Staff and FO think highly of him to let the two LBs go Joe and Kirk.
I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ...
I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ...
I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ...
I think so too. He played well at Alabama, and that is a petty good testing ground.
Yet Saban said he really needed to return for another season.
Nick Saban staffs are NFL equal staffs. He knows what it takes and knows what it takes in the coaches he hires. He has had some teams down there that could beat a few NFL teams. He puts NFL ready players in to the league.
I am pretty sure he is going to be a very good player moving forward.
I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ...
I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ...
I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ...
I think so too. He played well at Alabama, and that is a petty good testing ground.
Yet Saban said he really needed to return for another season.
Nick Saban staffs are NFL equal staffs. He knows what it takes and knows what it takes in the coaches he hires. He has had some teams down there that could beat a few NFL teams. He puts NFL ready players in to the league.
I am pretty sure he is going to be a very good player moving forward.
Yeah, I think Wilson struggled some last year, but as a 5th round rookie that is to be expected. I think he also had good instincts and reaction MOST of the time, and he actually seemed to blow quite a few plays up last year if I remember right. People seem to always want Pro Bowl rookies and it usually doesn't work that way. How good was Schobert his rookie year?
I do think our LBs are a liability until proven otherwise, but I also think they'll be better than it seems right now. Players grow and progress (if they put the work in) and I hope a lot of these guys are using the time at home now to study film and really learn the defense.
I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ...
I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ...
I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ...
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember Joe being in zone a lot. At that point, Joe would only cover the TEs in his zone. Also, his assignment may be the RB, or even a slot WR. Just depends on his responsibility on the play.
I think one "problem" with PFF's grades is that different players are asked to do different things. It's easier to grade well in coverage if your assignments are primarily block-first TEs and and deep zones (especially with underwhelming opponent QB play.) Manning up an athletic TE/RB is much more difficult.
If you give a calculus class simple arithmetic problems, they'd probably grade pretty well. If you give them more challenging problems, they probably won't do as well. Unfortunately, there's not a way to establish standardized tests during NFL games.
Joe was good at what he was asked to do, in coverage. But, it often wasn't calculus.
Covering blocking TEs isn't exactly a skill that is in high demand.
We'll see what this group asks the LBs to do. ...Probably covering blocking TEs lol, and coming downhill against the run.
Hopefully our safeties/DBs can handle the tougher coverage assignments.
When getting into the Joe debate folks take sides pretty freely .. I have gone back and watched Joe over several games the last two seasons .. In Joe's defense, His DC's schemes had him totally out of position to be involved with the Offensive play that was called. Neither William's nor Wilks did him any favors. On the negative side Joe was not a stump er as a run stopper. He was continually blow up by Guards , TE's and RB's on running plays. There was enough blame to go around.
I think our LBs have talent, but are just very very young. My post above was that, in the past, when we are relying on a very young group of guys to play well w/o much experience, it generally doesn't turn out well. That's not so much an indictment of them as players, but moreso where they are in their careers/pro development.
Thanks for saying hey on another thread .... its great to see u around again and all grown up with kids of your own ... good for u my friend ... very happy for u as it appears your a fine young man ...
I think this group is going to surprise for a few reasons ....
1. The bars not that high for them in two ways ...
- We can bemoan the loss of Kirksey and Joe all we want ... the end result wasn’t very good ... our run D was bad and it may have been the DL’s fault but so what ... for the most part our LBers were invisible in the run game unless it was Joe making a tackle after a 4 or 5 yard gain with the runner ALWAYS falling forward ... Joe dies not shed blocks well and is not a good tackler ... Kirksey was hardly ever on the field so he will almost literally not be missed ...
Bottom line is regardless of how u personally saw Joe the results were not good in either the run or pass game ... our LBer’s have underperformed in the scope of the teams success ...
- the expectations just aren’t that high for this group ... no need to elaborate on this one ...
2. Wilson should have been in college last year ... instead he was gaining invaluable experience after being thrown to the wolves last year ... he had more ups than downs but he did flash ... dudes got a shot to be good ... he could have been a 1st rnd pick this year if he stood in school .... he also has a chip on his shoulder ...
3, the biggest jump players make is usually between years 1 and 2 ... that all i got for TakiTaki ... *L* ...
This group is definitely unknown and lacks names but I’m optimistic about them ...
Hey Diam! Thanks for the kind words, my friend. That means a lot.
I hear what you are saying. I tend to think Schobert was a solid MLB. I can see the argument, though, that he was perhaps not worth what he was paid. I guess time will tell.
My biggest concern, though, is that he was our best starter on a mediocre squad and he left, which inherently makes that mediocre squad worse, unless our mid-round rookie can step right in and play at his level, which I doubt happens. Either that, or the rookie has to be decent and Wilson has to step up his game to Schobert’s level or higher. I just do t have a ton of faith in that happening.
Apparently they felt that they could get a like type player from the draft and spend the money elsewhere.
We shall see. Maybe they are right.
I look at it differently. Joe was the defensive captain. He was the guy who lined people up. He played smart. When you look at the number of plays he made solo. It proved how instinctive he was.
I think you are right in that they will use different packages.
In Joe's defense, His DC's schemes had him totally out of position
water...good point...I don't know how many defensive schemes Joe played in under how many DCs.
The same issue that affected every other player also affected Schobert's play as he and all the players on the team attempted to play as each coach and scheme called for.
The Browns "ownership and upper management" need to begin to make commitments to the coaches and the players by transitioning to a "long term" plan. Haslam must keep his fingers off the team and allow this group of coaches and management to do the job that they were hired to do..teach players and build those players into a successful team.
Can't build a franchise into a winner if the franchise is in a state of constant change and turmoil driven by an owner who acts like a child when things don't go well...fire the management and all coaches...and start over again.
Looking at the successful franchises, you see one consistent factor that aides in a franchises long term success...KEEP THE CORE GROUP OF COACHES AND MANAGEMENT TOGETHER, REGARDLESS OF THE RECORD YEAR TO YEAR.
If the Steelers have a down year, the Rooneys do not fire the head coach and start over again. They might make some changes but for the most part, they just keep adding talent, knowing the coaching staff will develop the talent and build a stronger team to compete for a Championship next season.
IMO, football players perform at their best when there is "stability" and few changes.
The Browns ownership has one job to focus on...DO NO HARM TO STEFANSKI AND BERRY'S FOOTBALL TEAM!
I think the realistic me would agree with u and bone ...
I do have one question ... if joe is so good in coverage why do we always struggle covering te’s ... please educate me on that one as I’m sure its something I’m making to simple ...
I also agree with tabber and think we could see big things from Mack ... the realistic me firmly believes that ...
That is a fair question. I think Cle touched on it. We played our LBers in zone coverage most of the time. That is not unusual. If you go back to the conversations we had about coverages, you will not that is typical for LBers, even in coverages where you have your corners playing man. Furthermore, we have played a ton of zone under our DCs. That's not a bad thing or unusual.
Another thing is that our SS's have been terrible in coverage over the years. TJ Ward, Peppers, what was that one dude's name...Kindred or something like that. They all sucked. Murray is a good cover guy, but he often covered the slot receiver and the outside/short zone. I never got a feel on Burnett, so I can talk about him.
I know you don't like PFF, but Joe ranked number one against YAC. That tells you that he was right where he should have been.
As an aside........I am not jumping up and down and screaming about not keeping him. There just isn't much too talk about right now and this thread is one where we are actually talking football instead of that other crap.
Different opinions are a good thing. We can all learn a little.
Well, he did a bunch for us, and I was sorry to see him leave. I thought he covered well, and Vers has it nailed. Just like other guys leaving, it's that old lyric, "you really don't know what you've lost till it's gone." How much we lost, how solid our judgment was, and his real worth can only be known in hindsight. Hopefully, there will be some stepping up and shoe-filling.
Thursday, new Cleveland Browns linebacker B.J. Goodson had a conference call with the local media from South Carolina, where he is currently training. After playing with the Green Bay Packers and New York Giants, it was largely trying to figure out who he is.
After the Browns let Joe Schobert walk in free agency and opted to release Chris Kirksey, Goodson has been their only unrestricted free agent signing to this point. They drafted Jacob Phillips in the third round of the NFL Draft out of LSU, signed a couple of undrafted free agents, but Goodson was the only player they added with experience starting games in the NFL.
“To get these guys better, including myself, for us to be the best linebacker core across the league. That is my job, and that is why they brought me here. I am looking forward to that. I am up for the challenge.”
Getting into the leadership aspect further, later in the call.
“It is. As a middle linebacker and especially as long as I have been playing, that leadership role is something that you just inherit. It is something that I am definitely looking forward to being an addition there for those guys.”
When he was asked about his determination to start week one, he offered a message that the team would probably like the rest of the linebacker room to adopt.
“To be honest, I understand that [question], but I do not even look at it like that. I take things a day at a time. Just laying one brick as perfectly as possible as I can, and whatever happens, happens. I have tremendous, tremendous, tremendous – not to sound arrogant or anything – faith in my game. That is not a knock on anyone, as well. They are all great people. We have a great room. We get to meet every day for about four or five days a week. It is pretty good. We have a great room.”
Seemingly unwilling to divulge anything, as if it might be out of turn, when he was asked if he knew he was competing against, Goodson kept it very general.
“I do, but as far as competition, I compete with myself. That is my biggest opponent. I compete with myself every single day. I know that sounds kind of cliché and guys use that and say that a lot. The way that I visualize the game mentally and the way that I prepare for the game mentally, I go at myself a lot and dig into myself a lot.”
When asked if the pandemic and being limited to a virtual program would hurt their ability to be ready for the season, Goodson was confident they would be ready.
“Not at all. Not at all. We meet every single day and (defensive coordinator) Joe (Woods) and (Head) Coach (Kevin Stefanski), those guys, they do an awesome job of prepping us and quizzing us and doing everything in their power and will that they can do. We are doing a lot of other things that a lot of other teams are not doing. I commend those guys on that and setting that standard.”
Goodson also addressed his strength as a run defender while making it clear he believes he can do more.
“I kind of wanted to say something about that, as well, but not to really dig into it. Yes, I am great at that, but as far as the defense that we are in now, I feel like it is the shoulder-and-up side of my game a little bit more, as well. As far as covering and stuff, I feel very confident in fulfilling those roles, as well.”
B.J. Goodson knew exactly what he was signing up for when he decided to join the Browns on a one-year deal in March.
Goodson, a four-year veteran, obviously would receive a chance to start with Cleveland and create an opportunity for a longer stay with the Browns beyond 2020.
He was also cognizant that, at age 26, he'll be the oldest and most experienced linebacker the Browns have on their roster.
That means he needs to be a mentor, regardless of the amount of playing time he'll receive.
"To get these guys better, including myself," Goodson said Thursday in a Zoom call with local reporters. It was a quick answer, too. Goodson didn't hesitate to put his mentorship role first when he was asked about his goals for next season.
"It's for us to be the best linebacking core across the league," he said. "That's my job, and that's why they brought me here. I'm looking forward to that and the talent."
The Browns linebackers have plenty of work to do if they want to attain that goal, but there's no shortage of promise. The group also includes 2019 draft picks Mack Wilson and Sione Takitaki and Jacob Phillips, a 2020 third-round pick. Each of them have a shot to be a Week 1 starter, but the youth is evident — the oldest player of the trio is Takitaki, and he's only 24.
Rounding out the group is Tae Davis, Montrel Meander, Willie Harvey and Jermaine Grace. Davis and Grace have a combined 51 games of experience, while Meander and Harvey have two games, both from Harvey last season.
Signing Goodson gives the Browns depth and experience while giving Goodson a chance to establish his value, signed by the Browns on a one year, "show me" contract.
Goodson is not a finished product and imo, he will improve with good coaching from LB coach, Jason Tarver. Goodson is listed on the depth chart behind Sione Takitaki. It appears that Goodson is not being "given" anything and will have to work to move up the depth chart.
Competition is a great motivator...
A quick look at video of Goodson, some things I noticed.. ...good speed ...diagnoses plays quickly ...gets off of blocks quickly
Hopefully the Browns will improve upon their ability to stop the run. rank 26...total yards p/g 361 rank 30...rushing yds p/g 144
Maybe Taki will show something. I like Wilson. Thought he had a good rookie year. He got thrown in there and held his own. He made mistakes but gave good effort and made some plays. He gained good experience and I expect him to make that big leap in his second year. Goodson? Hell Woods?
I think the secondary will be solid. Delpit is a rookie but there room to be optimistic with him.
Karl Joseph maybe a surprise. I liked him coming out of college.
The big negative to be overcome is preparation. This virus issue is going to be tough on the teams with regime change. It is hard enough to implement new systems and language under normal conditions. Coaches and players don't even know each other. Freddie had some experience with the team and still could not put the team together.
The Steelers and Ravens are business as usual. That is a big advantage. We will have our hands full playing them.
I am upset they let Schobert go. He was very good, especially in coverage.
That said, does anyone actually think Kirksey will be missed? No way was he worth $7 million when he can't stay healthy, and he was possibly above average at best. He wasn't remotely close to even Schobert, so I have no issues with him being gone.
We have a few LBers that should give comparable, or close to it, performance... perhaps improved as we focus more on stopping the run. Additionally, both Scho and Kirksey should bring us compensatory picks.
I am upset they let Schobert go. He was very good, especially in coverage.
That said, does anyone actually think Kirksey will be missed? No way was he worth $7 million when he can't stay healthy, and he was possibly above average at best. He wasn't remotely close to even Schobert, so I have no issues with him being gone.
We have a few LBers that should give comparable, or close to it, performance... perhaps improved as we focus more on stopping the run. Additionally, both Scho and Kirksey should bring us compensatory picks.
It's Win-Win for us.
Kirksey was released so we 100% will not get a comp pick for him. We signed Jack Conklin and Austin Hooper so they easily cancel out Schobert's potential comp pick, so no comp pick for him.
I thought you were joking around since you said that the new guys might be better than Joe. Apparently not, but I am pretty sure that we don't have any Comp picks.
I didn't realize we released Kirksey. I thought he just left as a FA.
As for Sho, I thought position group mattered for the signing of offsets, so I would not think Conklin matters at all.
Position group does not matter with comp picks. It’s all about the contracts.
I know it is about contracts, but I thought the new contract had to be a replacement player for the one you lost in Free Agency. e.g. Conklin would not be a replacement for Scho.
since you said that the new guys might be better than Joe.
No, I did not say that. Go read it again. Slowly. Now, read it again. Let it gestate and settle. Now think about what you read. Read it once more for good measure.
super...this image applies to the entire Browns franchise...
especially GM, Coach, QB .. you know, only the important positions lol
And this fan base, including you, is going to try and run Baker out of town if he has even an average year this year. I'm telling you guys that the three year rule might not apply to Baker (partly because of him and partly because of his situation - 4 coaches in 3 years). It may take him to year 4 or 5, but if he walks, I think the franchise will regret it.
As long as he is showing flashes, and if you're objective about last year he did have some flashes, this franchise needs to ride it out with him.
QBs do not grow on trees. There are no quick fixes. Build and develop him.
super...this image applies to the entire Browns franchise...
especially GM, Coach, QB .. you know, only the important positions lol
And this fan base, including you, is going to try and run Baker out of town if he has even an average year this year. I'm telling you guys that the three year rule might not apply to Baker (partly because of him and partly because of his situation - 4 coaches in 3 years). It may take him to year 4 or 5, but if he walks, I think the franchise will regret it.
As long as he is showing flashes, and if you're objective about last year he did have some flashes, this franchise needs to ride it out with him.
QBs do not grow on trees. There are no quick fixes. Build and develop him.
dude, Rish ... including me?! When have I ever called for Baker’s head? Maybe you’re mistaking me for someone else. In fact, I’ve never called for anybody to be fired with one exception: Freddie Kitchens.
Now, I do admit to being as frustrated and pessimistic ... but I think that’s justified with this franchise.
I’m not someone who calls for guys jobs ... just a personal perspective as a coach/former player
It's going to happen D4L. Unless Baker plays very well. And you'll be out in front leading the charge. You are already on record as saying something to the effect that "this is a make or break year for Baker". Not sure if those were the exact words. I couldn't disagree more.
What I'm trying to warn you and others is that if Baker has an average year that it's not the end of the world. I was extremely critical of Baker this past year, but I've gone back and watched almost every game from the last 2 years, and I think Baker is a player that will be very good - it just might not be this year.
There are only two reasons I can think of that may change that outlook. One - just utter collapse, just terrible play, demonstrating that he's not developing or learning. Two - being in a position to draft Lawrence. IMO, those would be the only two reasons to move on from Baker.
The fans will not tolerate less than HOF play, however. The media will not tolerate less than HOF play, however. If that's the case maybe Baker will engineer his way out of town. But we finally have a player with the drive and ability to play the position. Now put him in a stable environment and build and develop him. I'm hoping we can do that for once.
You may find it funny. However when you point out that Bakers passes sailed high a lot and his accuracy wasn't as good in 2019 as it was in 2918, suddenly people claim you hate Baker.
But being real isn't something I expect from many.
Give it up dawg ... he needs to show IMPROVEMENT ... why is that asking to much? Dude threw a ton of picks last year and made bad decisions regularly ... he needs to improve on that ...
If he’s close to the same in week 17 as he was in week 1 this year ...unless this years week 1 was a marked improvement over last year they best start exploring other options IF they present themselves ...
Do u get rid of him or “give up on him” .. ummm no .... do u simply write it off to 3 systems in 3 years ... HELL NO ...
And we need more than FLASHING this year ... we need to see the rookie year Bake where he seemed to get better each week and not regressing each week ...
Do u think i hate Bake? .. IF u pay attention to my posts you’d know I don’t .... yet read some of your fellow sashiettes posts and they paint me as a hater ....
*L* all u want at Pit but Im living proof he’s right ...
No one wants Baker to fail. Maybe KOB and rasta are against him, but most of us want him to succeed. Rish is a trouble-maker who plays stupid personality games. Better off ignoring the likes of him.
I have a better proposition and I have PMed you about it. How about that you don't mention me and I don't mention you so our stupid little arguments don't bog down the board? Deal?
You'll never go for that because of how important it is to you to play these stupid, childish, personality games.
Grateful posted a new Terry Pluto article in another thread. I am going to copy and paste the part of it that addresses the linebackers because it's relevant to this thread.
Quote:
ABOUT THE LINEBACKERS
1. I probably value linebackers higher than the current Browns. Remember their front/back approach. The Browns seem to be taking the same approach to linebackers as the Philadelphia Eagles...or former Browns GM John Dorsey. In their view, it’s not a spot to spend big money.
2. The Browns have the NFL’s most salary cap room ($38 million), according to overthecap.com. They not only are working on a mega-deal for Garrett, they also have to consider Larry Ogunjobi, who will be a free agent after the season. They want to keep the veteran tackle.
3. Coming up next season is the 2019 draft class of Baker Mayfield, Nick Chubb and Denzel Ward. The Browns can’t talk extensions for them until 2021, but they have to plan for the future cap spending for their key young players.
4. One of the discussions the Browns had was paying middle linebacker Joe Schobert or Vernon. They decided on Vernon because they believe if he can stay relatively healthy, he’ll make a major impact as a pass rusher.
5. Dorsey wasn’t able to sign Schobert. New GM Andrew Berry didn’t put a lot of salary cap room in his direction. Schobert received a 5-year, $54 million deal ($21 million guaranteed) from Jacksonville, according to overthecap.com.
6. In the defense designed by new coordinator Joe Woods, the premium for linebackers is being placed on speed and coverage skills. They obviously also want sure tacklers. Pass-rush linebacker such as Clay Matthews III doesn’t appear to be in their plans – at least right now. As training camp approaches and Matthews still has no significant offers, perhaps that changes.
ABOUT THE BROWNS
1. The Browns are counting on the young guys, two of them being Dorsey’s picks in 2019: Mack Wilson and Sione Takitaki. The other is 2020 third-round pick Jacob Phillips and veteran free agent B.J. Goodson.
2. The Browns will play three linebackers, or even only two at times in their new defense. Let’s talk about 4-3 scheme. In the middle (Schobert’s) spot will be a duel between Goodson and Wilson.
3. It’s possible Phillips can emerge as the middle linebacker, but it’s hard to project a rookie. He also could be in line to battle for one of the outside linebacker spots.
4. The door is wide open for Takitaki to play one of the outside linebacker spots. The Dorsey front office took Takitaki in the third round. He had some injuries early in camp and during the season and never could get into the regular rotation.
5. There are four key linebackers for three spots: Goodson, Wilson, Takitaki and Phillips. But it’s possible the Browns will use rookie safety Grant Delpit or veteran safety Karl Joseph near the line of scrimmage. That means they’d need only two linebackers.
6. It’s still early to figure out the linebacker situation. The lack of spring minicamps because of COVID-19 doesn’t help. Perhaps they will add someone else.
JC: Read this article this morning with my Rice Krispees and Chobani Yogurt. Listened to Sione Takitaki earlier too.
I'm getting more excited about this upcoming season's linebackers. I wouldn't be surprised if we add someone to the room. I was thinking Myckel Kendricks, but i guess his legal issues aren't behind him.
So, right now, i'm assuming no major upgrade to the group. But I have been thinking about what Andrew Berry said about how you have to give young guys a chance sometimes. That's the approach i'm taking with this.
I do believe it's like CFRS? always talks about, we'll generally always have 2 LBs on the field. Very rarely three. On run-stopping plays like 2nd/3rd and short, maybe three. But generally two.
BJ Goodson, to me, seems more like a role player. His skillset has been defined a bit because he's already played a decent amount of NFL football. But we haven't seen much Takitaki and we haven't seen Jackob Philips. That's the battle that i'm sort of waiting for.
Reading up on defenses lately, the SAM LB doesn't seem to be so important anymore. Theoretically you can have two LBs more suited toward WILL on the field with your MLB, as teams don't run the ball as much anymore (so you don't need a big LB to put over the top of the TE).
In a sense, we might just see the best two/three LBs on the field next season. Less focused on what position they fit into, and more about what skillset they fit for the game/situation.
I agree that the run is decreased across the NFL as a whole. But in our division, the Ravens are probably to team with the highest run to pass ratio in the NFL. If not the highest then close. Pittsburgh is still run heavy compared to the rest of the NFL and the Bengals have a rookie Qb so they should lean on Mixon.
Do u think i hate Bake? .. IF u pay attention to my posts you’d know I don’t .... yet read some of your fellow sashiettes posts and they paint me as a hater ....
*L* all u want at Pit but Im living proof he’s right ...
I don't think you hate Baker...nor do I think you have some agenda surrounding the guy.
I lol at Pitt - of all people - getting all high-and-mighty about posters' comments, there being only 2 Baker factions and "expectations" etc. It's STILL funny.
I don't think there is a person on this board - or anywhere else in Browns-fan land - who thinks Baker played no part in last year's offensive failures.
We can see the footwork issues...we cannot see the issues with decision-making or who made the wrong read on a particular play. The coaches see the footwork...no way they do not? Does Baker ignore the footwork coaching? WAS there any footwork coaching? Or does he revert to muscle-memory when the doodoo hits the fan? BTW,he CAN work on his footwork without going to Tom House's...house.
I do see constantly-negative, drive-by shooting comments about the guy with as much depth as a teaspoon.
We can pick at each other all day and night...but there is so much that we DON'T know (about what went wrong) and so much that went upside-down that we DO know of, and nothing new has been stated in months.
And we are starting over...again. Two new tackles...two new TEs...and another new batch of coaches...all under the BS COVID shutdown...what could possibly go wrong?
Linebackers? Yeah...we might have a problem there.
You have a lot more enthusiasm that I do about LB. Wilson flashed a lot of athletic ability last year - not always matched by his play of the position. The amount of snaps he took has to be a big positive. I thought Taki looked bad last year. Goodson might be a veteran presence but he looks better suited to a limited back up roll than someone that sees many plays. . . . I think it was The Athletic that broke down every teams roster and had the Browns starting D listed as 4-2-5. Would not be surprised if we play a lot of sets with only 2 LB ... if any of the LB take a giant step forward it would only be a bonus.
I agree that the run is decreased across the NFL as a whole. But in our division, the Ravens are probably to team with the highest run to pass ratio in the NFL. If not the highest then close. Pittsburgh is still run heavy compared to the rest of the NFL and the Bengals have a rookie Qb so they should lean on Mixon.
Yeah. We’ll see some from our division especially Baltimore and Pitt.
Hopefully we can get a lead vs bengals early and end the running threat. That’s one of the best ways to stop the run. Get up 14-0 and keep your foot on the gas
Pitt is a weird situation. They’re just a well balanced team.
With Baltimore we succeeded with two LBs. when Kirko went down the LB room emptied. Takitaki wasn’t getting many reps, nor that Adalius Taylor guy. We still managed to figure that one out.
I’d almost rather have a run blitz oriented attack with five DLinemen against Lamar. We’ve got the DTs to do it with Larry, Sheldon, and Billings. Line Garrett and Vernon our wide (who both can set the edge well), and bare down on Jackson while keeping him in the pocket. Keep Joseph near the LOS and let Delopit follow Lamars eyes to try and make a play. Greedy and Denzel just need to hold their assignments until The DLine comes through
I think I've seen comments about the OL on here where many guys seem to know what they are talking about. ANY LB gurus out there want to tackle where they think the guys that we DO have will play? My guesses on characteristics:
Goodson - 2 down guy...plugs the middle;
Takitaki - More of a pass-rusher;
Wilson - More of a coverage guy;
Phillips - Heir-apparent as the guy to plug the middle;
Harvey - More of a coverage guy.
2 pluggers, 2 cover guys, i push rusher? I dunno.
I don't think the other guys have a legit shot...the FA market is slim. But I still think we add another legit guy...somehow.
Reading Pluto’s article, I didnt realize we were considering re-signing Larry O (at least yet) ... if our coaches think he can make improvements this year, it may be wise to lock him up sooner than later.
It's exactly as accurate as the accusations you make towards others.
I support Baker and hope to see improvement. I know he has it in him because I saw how he produced in 2918. There are just a lot of question marks there after watching him play in 2019. We will know a lot more about that when and if the 2020 season starts.
All I think most everyone expects to see from Baker is gradual improvement. I for one won't be hard on him at least early in the season. I've said it before and I'll say it again, with a new HC and new coordinators, Covid 19 puts teams in that situation behind the 8 ball. So if things get off to a slow start, I for one consider that a reasonable expectation.
How things go from there will be a different matter. Accountability is a big part of the job description when you're an NFL QB.
Keep Vernon, aggressively pursue Ngakoue when he becomes an unrestricted free agent at the end of 2020 season.
Or, maybe there's a solid DE we could draft?
That's my top need 2021 Draft. DE in 1st round.
Myles Garrett assumes Olivier Vernon's Contract (and then some), draft a DE at a 1st Round Rookie Salary, and begin the process again.
I'm guessing Ngakoue will be somewhere in the low 20's. Garrett will be 25. That's 45 million on two DE's. I don't see the FO wishing to do that.
They're going to hope that a quality DE at a Rookie 1st Round Price. That way they can afford to keep Sheldon Richardson and maybe even extend Big Larry Ogunjobi (although i'm not holding my breath on that one)
If all goes well, we'll get a 3rd round comp pick for Vernon
Keep Vernon, aggressively pursue Ngakoue when he becomes an unrestricted free agent at the end of 2020 season.
Or, maybe there's a solid DE we could draft?
That's my top need 2021 Draft. DE in 1st round.
Myles Garrett assumes Olivier Vernon's Contract (and then some), draft a DE at a 1st Round Rookie Salary, and begin the process again.
I'm guessing Ngakoue will be somewhere in the low 20's. Garrett will be 25. That's 45 million on two DE's. I don't see the FO wishing to do that.
They're going to hope that a quality DE at a Rookie 1st Round Price. That way they can afford to keep Sheldon Richardson and maybe even extend Big Larry Ogunjobi (although i'm not holding my breath on that one)
If all goes well, we'll get a 3rd round comp pick for Vernon
No doubt you have to allocate so much money per position group unless you have a couple of future HOF's at that position group. Even then you probably have to ton out and trade one unless you decide to go bare bones somewhere else.
That usually doesn't work. Good teams are usually pretty solid across the board. It why as an example teams feel they can deal with running backs on rookie contracts. If your o-line is good, most rooks out of college can be pretty solid.
Sure, you keep a guy like Emmett Smith, but you know what I am saying.
I stated that post as an absolute in response to an absolute about Clowney vs. Oliver. In my estimation, Clowney doesn't offer much more than Oliver. Ngakoue, on the other hand is a highly consistent productive pass rusher who produces sacks. I place more value on that than what Clowney had done year-over-year.
Hopefully we'll get Myles extended sometime this year so we know how much money remains to allocate to this position. That will help inform any decisions about other contracts in this position group.
I don't know how much it will cost to sign Ngakoue, but signing Clowney for the same money currently allocated to Oliver also seems unlikely. I'm open to drafting a player but this upcoming class of pass rushers doesn't appear to have much depth at the moment.
A good to great draftee is an appealing solution. I'm not opposed to that at all.
Give it up dawg ... he needs to show IMPROVEMENT ... why is that asking to much?
This. We swapped out the coach (addressing offensive scheme and playcalling issues... and hopefully team culture). We made a massive investment in the line as well as his pass-catchers... you could argue to the detriment of our defense.
IMO, the main issues that year were with Freddie and outside of Baker's control... but he had his own issues that are very much within his control and ones that he has to get through himself.
IMO, the only thing that he needs is a little bit of time to get comfortable w/in yet another new offense. This offensive roster has WAAAAY too much talent to not see significant improvement by the middle of the season.
Look, I hate swapping out key pieces (coach, QB, etc) like toilet paper just as much as the next guy. But there's also another risk in play right now. This offense is way way too stacked to be wasting time on a QB that isn't going to get it. I'm not saying that's Baker. I think he will turn the corner and be "the guy", but I also acknowledge that I've been wrong before. So that that end, I DO think this is a critical year for Baker.
I was looking at the LBer grades from PFF. This group looks pathetic as of right now. Not saying that the young dudes won't improve, but they need to improve a lot.
I don't think Takitaki and Davis had enough snaps to be ranked among the 89 LBers listed by PFF's rankings, but Wilson finished 83rd and Goodson was 52nd out of the 89 LBers who were ranked.
I think Wilson will improve. I don't think it's a stretch to put that out there.
It's just that putting ourselves in a situation where we have little established talent and are relying on young guys to make a big leap hasn't worked out well for us in the past.
Wilson played way more than he should have as a 1st year later round pick ... we’ll see how much (if he can) he’ll improve. He wasn’t very good last year, despite what he says on social media or how much we wanted him to be good
The defense is a Garrett or Vernon injury away from being very bad this year. With both of those guys they are at best middle of the road.
Best case scenario is Ward and Greedy become another Minnifield/Dixon and Delpit is the player everyone thought he would be going into 2019. Those will help keep the defense middle of the pack and maybe slightly above middle. But we are talking all pro seasons from all three for this defense to even have a chance. You also have to hope that one of Wilson or Phillips just studs out of nowhere.
That's a lot of what ifs. Under a culture of instability and impatience.
It would not surprise me if the defense finished in the 25 - 32 range.
Give it up dawg ... he needs to show IMPROVEMENT ... why is that asking to much?
This. We swapped out the coach (addressing offensive scheme and playcalling issues... and hopefully team culture). We made a massive investment in the line as well as his pass-catchers... you could argue to the detriment of our defense.
IMO, the main issues that year were with Freddie and outside of Baker's control... but he had his own issues that are very much within his control and ones that he has to get through himself.
IMO, the only thing that he needs is a little bit of time to get comfortable w/in yet another new offense. This offensive roster has WAAAAY too much talent to not see significant improvement by the middle of the season.
Look, I hate swapping out key pieces (coach, QB, etc) like toilet paper just as much as the next guy. But there's also another risk in play right now. This offense is way way too stacked to be wasting time on a QB that isn't going to get it. I'm not saying that's Baker. I think he will turn the corner and be "the guy", but I also acknowledge that I've been wrong before. So that that end, I DO think this is a critical year for Baker.
I just cannot disagree with this sentiment more. First, if Baker doesn't play up to a standard next year, you have to find a replacement. The Browns have been trying to find a replacement for 20+ years. Not one single one of those QBs had the pedigree or the talent that Mayfield has. So instead of recognizing he's been dealt a crappy hand and allowing the time to get him some traction and stability, we want to label this as some type of judgement year where a decision could be made to move on from him.
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this type of thinking. I just can't get there.
Give it up dawg ... he needs to show IMPROVEMENT ... why is that asking to much?
This. We swapped out the coach (addressing offensive scheme and playcalling issues... and hopefully team culture). We made a massive investment in the line as well as his pass-catchers... you could argue to the detriment of our defense.
IMO, the main issues that year were with Freddie and outside of Baker's control... but he had his own issues that are very much within his control and ones that he has to get through himself.
IMO, the only thing that he needs is a little bit of time to get comfortable w/in yet another new offense. This offensive roster has WAAAAY too much talent to not see significant improvement by the middle of the season.
Look, I hate swapping out key pieces (coach, QB, etc) like toilet paper just as much as the next guy. But there's also another risk in play right now. This offense is way way too stacked to be wasting time on a QB that isn't going to get it. I'm not saying that's Baker. I think he will turn the corner and be "the guy", but I also acknowledge that I've been wrong before. So that that end, I DO think this is a critical year for Baker.
I am going to copy your post and reply to it in the Baker thread. I'd rather keep this thread about LBers.
Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods held a conference call with the media on Thursday and the aspect that stood out most if what he said in regards to the linebacker position. When Woods wasn't specifically saying that the Browns were going to try to have fewer of them on the field regularly, he was perhaps lowering expectations on what should be expected from them this season.
Sione Takitaki, last year's third round pick, has said he's primarily learning the weak side linebacker position. Jacob Phillips has said that he's primarily focused on playing the weak side linebacker position. That is the position that both played at their respective colleges, although those roles were dramatically different.
B.J. Goodson stands out as a middle linebacker geared toward stopping the run. Mack Wilson's role seemingly would be to fill in where Goodson cannot in terms of the passing game.
Woods mentioned that he was having all the linebackers crosstrain. This is not necessarily a bad thing on its face. Injuries happen and guys need to be able to step up and fill in, but it also means that players don't have a real position yet.
As an example, when Joe Schobert was with the Browns last year, everyone knew he was the middle linebacker. On any given play, he was in the game and he was the MIKE. Woods may not intend it to sound this way, but the reality is that none of the current linebackers are entrenched anywhere. This is one of the biggest questions for the Browns in training camp, because no one knows where anyone is going to play, let alone start.
Further, Woods went on to explain that he wants to transition to a Dime system. That would have four defensive linemen, six defensive backs and just one linebacker on the field. Woods noted it would take time, but said the goal was to have three safeties on the field consistently.
This should come as no surprise given the amount of investment the Browns have made at the safety position. They signed Karl Joseph and Andrew Sendejo in free agency, then drafted Grant Delpit in the second round of the draft. The Browns still have a utility player with experience both at free safty as well as the slot in Sheldrick Redwine, who fits into what Woods wants to do.
Everything the Browns have done this offseason has been to minimize the importance of the linebacker position. They released Chris Kirksey, let Joe Schobert leave in free agency and signed a cheap free agent in Goodson, drafted a third round pick in Phillips.
If the Browns find great players at the position, which is certainly what they'd like to do, not unlike what the 49ers were able to do with Dre Greenlaw as a rookie last year, then they will incorporate them into the defensive structure. If they have good players, they will use them, but Woods really seemed to lower what should've already been pretty low expectations for a group of linebackers without a single proven entity.
The only things that the Browns are consistent at is continually changing things and losing. Every plan sounds so great and folks get excited. Then, reality sets in and we start the same thing all over again.
The only things that the Browns are consistent at is continually changing things and losing. Every plan sounds so great and folks get excited. Then, reality sets in and we start the same thing all over again.
In other words,our LBs suck and you fans should prepare yourselves to watching opposing teams play smashmouth and rack up the yards. I hate these young,hi tech coordinators with their gimmicky D's worring about passing yardage. The old adage is still true,if you can't stop the run,the other doesn't have to pass.
In other words,our LBs suck and you fans should prepare yourselves to watching opposing teams play smashmouth and rack up the yards. I hate these young,hi tech coordinators with their gimmicky D's worring about passing yardage. The old adage is still true,if you can't stop the run,the other doesn't have to pass.
In other words,our LBs suck and you fans should prepare yourselves to watching opposing teams play smashmouth and rack up the yards.
This.
Every team plays with two or less linebackers the majority of the time. If other teams are able to figure out how to stop the run we should be able to figure it out also. Having the right players is the most important thing and it remains to be seen whether we do or not. I think Karl Joseph, if healthy, will be perfectly adequate in a linebacker role. I don’t know about literally any of the other players.
In other words,our LBs suck and you fans should prepare yourselves to watching opposing teams play smashmouth and rack up the yards. I hate these young,hi tech coordinators with their gimmicky D's worring about passing yardage. The old adage is still true,if you can't stop the run,the other doesn't have to pass.
Isn’t the exact opposite also true?
The exact opposite isn't an old adage.All I know about football consists of old adages,so I can't answer your question.
IF Wilson studs out it won’t be out of no where ... he should have been in college last year and if he came out this year he very well could have been a 1st round pick ... he also had his struggles last year like all rookies do but he also flashed ...
I don’t understand why everyone is so down on Mack ... I’m not sure what u expected out of a rookie in that D ...
There is always the possibility that Mack will improve. He should for the reasons you mentioned. We all hope that he will because we are all Browns fans.
At the same time I think you must consider all of the times as Browns fans we have banked on potential and improvement that never came to pass. Over the past two decades it would seem illogical to expect Browns fans to be anything less than skeptical about it.
I have no clue what the last 20 years has to with Mack Wilson ... to me thinking that because we’ve always failed in the past means this cats not gonna develop is what’s illogical ...
Do browns fans not understand what mutually exclusive means ...
IF Wilson studs out it won’t be out of no where ... he should have been in college last year and if he came out this year he very well could have been a 1st round pick ... he also had his struggles last year like all rookies do but he also flashed ...
I don’t understand why everyone is so down on Mack ... I’m not sure what u expected out of a rookie in that D ...
Fourth round picks usually don’t turn to be very good especially after they were terrible in their first year.
I despise the darn 4/2 .. We will ( as always the last few years ) get killed in the running game over the middle by TE's and running backs. This is so frustrating to me as a fan. You need the rare linebacker ( think Luke Kuechly ) to even come close to making a 4/2 work.
I have no clue what the last 20 years has to with Mack Wilson ... to me thinking that because we’ve always failed in the past means this cats not gonna develop is what’s illogical ...
Do browns fans not understand what mutually exclusive means ...
Browns LB's all Vacuum, with a capital S,
^Revised, my first thought was more argumentative and negative.
Ya your right ... he got an entire years experience in the nfl and as of today his draft position means squadoosh ... i think it was the 5th round BTW ...
Dude’s got a chance .... thats all that matters ...
The only things that the Browns are consistent at is continually changing things and losing. Every plan sounds so great and folks get excited. Then, reality sets in and we start the same thing all over again.
In this case, I think it is probably the way to go.
With the NFL becoming a passing first league, it makes sense.
Jurther, Woods went on to explain that he wants to transition to a Dime system. That would have four defensive linemen, six defensive backs and just one linebacker on the field. Woods noted it would take time, but said the goal was to have three safeties on the field consistently.
j/c
they must really hate their LB core. I feel like my initial post was exactly what was said above LOL
I said:
I'm to the point where I'd rather play with 6 DB's and 5 DL than trot our this sacrificial joke of an LB group. Maybe we could go 5 DB's 1 LB and 5 DL. The way the FO has been signing DB's and DL it looks like the team thinks that too LOL Either way, it's not great.
Jurther, Woods went on to explain that he wants to transition to a Dime system. That would have four defensive linemen, six defensive backs and just one linebacker on the field. Woods noted it would take time, but said the goal was to have three safeties on the field consistently.
j/c
they must really hate their LB core. I feel like my initial post was exactly what was said above LOL
I said:
I'm to the point where I'd rather play with 6 DB's and 5 DL than trot our this sacrificial joke of an LB group. Maybe we could go 5 DB's 1 LB and 5 DL. The way the FO has been signing DB's and DL it looks like the team thinks that too LOL Either way, it's not great.
Basically every team plays two linebackers or less the majority of the snaps. This is not some crazy idea Joe Woods came up with while he was lockdown. This is how every team operates.
Jurther, Woods went on to explain that he wants to transition to a Dime system. That would have four defensive linemen, six defensive backs and just one linebacker on the field. Woods noted it would take time, but said the goal was to have three safeties on the field consistently.
j/c
they must really hate their LB core. I feel like my initial post was exactly what was said above LOL
I said:
I'm to the point where I'd rather play with 6 DB's and 5 DL than trot our this sacrificial joke of an LB group. Maybe we could go 5 DB's 1 LB and 5 DL. The way the FO has been signing DB's and DL it looks like the team thinks that too LOL Either way, it's not great.
On paper the group looks weak, but that doesn't mean it will be weak.
In the end we will probably play 5 DBs over 50% of the time and go with 2 backers. The upgrades on the interior DL should also help their play.
Diam, I know you have the island thing going on.......but, what do you think of constantly changing personnel and schemes?
It sucks ... we’ve hired incompetent boobs at every level of this org since our return until KJ ... then we fired him cause the thief’s a moron .... but so far Andy has done well ... I think after all the atrocious hires over the last 20 years put the odds squarely n our favor and we may have found our gm for awhile ... that’d solve a lot of problems ...
If Kev’s the answer we will hopefully be set for years to come and we will become a stabile franchise for the first time in decades ...
Its way to early to know on Andy but i love most of what he did this offseason and am hopeful its not fools gold like Freddie was .. i don’t think it is but the jury hasn’t even started deliberating yet ...
IMO we have made horrific hires at all levels since our return ...
Before u have consistency u need to have competent people in place ... HOPEFULLY we finally have that at the GM & HC levels ... if so say hello to consistency for a change ..
I like most of the moves Berry has made too. However, I wasn't just talking about the FO and coaching. I was also including all the schematic changes. We continually create holes to fit the changes and that sets us back in regards to personnel.
Joe was a true 3-down LBer. Thus, we are going to use two to the three players to fill his departure. Not sure how "smart" that is.
Of course thats not smart ... math says so ... ... and those changes are part of regime changes ... its very rarely a new regime doesn’ come in and install there systems and acquire personal to fir their system ...
It’s also not smart to overpay for guys ... in Andy’s eyes Joe was asking for to much ... KJ didn’t value him enough to start contract talks before the start of Joe’s walk year ... they made have had a cursory convo and the # Joe’s agent gave him was so out of whack with KJ’s valuation there was no need to engage in talks at that point ...
Losing Joe very may well end up being a bad move for both the short and long term ... IF it turns out that way and it turns out Andy made a mistake ... it happens ... as u well know Andy’s gonna make mistakes .. and as u also well know they all do and there’s more mistakes coming .. its the nature of the beast ...
I also want to add ... just cause Kev is new doesn’t mean we won’t be REAL GOOD ... the talents there and there’s plenty of recent examples of first year coaches doing very well and with a lot less talent that we have here ...
Anyone out there willing to take a shot at explaining what happens in a 4-2 and/in-consideration-of the designations and duties of Will, Mike & Sam? Which two are still on the field?
Diam, I know you have the island thing going on.......but, what do you think of constantly changing personnel and schemes?
It sucks ... we’ve hired incompetent boobs at every level of this org since our return until KJ ... then we fired him cause the thief’s a moron .... but so far Andy has done well ... I think after all the atrocious hires over the last 20 years put the odds squarely n our favor and we may have found our gm for awhile ... that’d solve a lot of problems ...
If Kev’s the answer we will hopefully be set for years to come and we will become a stabile franchise for the first time in decades ...
Its way to early to know on Andy but i love most of what he did this offseason and am hopeful its not fools gold like Freddie was .. i don’t think it is but the jury hasn’t even started deliberating yet ...
IMO we have made horrific hires at all levels since our return ...
Before u have consistency u need to have competent people in place ... HOPEFULLY we finally have that at the GM & HC levels ... if so say hello to consistency for a change ..
I think we have it. I like what Berry has done. I like the style of O Stefanski wants to play. Not a high risk O, that fits with Bakers style, and both talk the same language with Depodesta.
I have watched all the vids with those guys. You can tell when watching all 3 are very smart people, and they all seem to have a common, shared vision. That is a good thing.
For the past 4-5 years, it just seemed like there were divides. People on a power play type deal. Here, I think all three respect each other. They all know each others lane....Berry is the final say as GM, Stefanski is the gameday coach and sets game strategy, and Depodesta is the guy who gives ideas on the strategy moving forward and augments the scouting department. Verifying or putting a question mark behind a rating...good or bad. Not to have any final say. Just to say the metrics say this and it is opposite of the report. Maybe we need to look again.
I like most of the moves Berry has made too. However, I wasn't just talking about the FO and coaching. I was also including all the schematic changes. We continually create holes to fit the changes and that sets us back in regards to personnel.
Joe was a true 3-down LBer. Thus, we are going to use two to the three players to fill his departure. Not sure how "smart" that is.
Maybe. I won't argue the point.
Sometimes money plays a role as you project forward. Maybe it was determined that Joe wasn't that big of a difference make to pay that much money.
I know this is a stretch, so you can shrink to whatever makes sense to you, but if signing Joe prevented us from signing Myles, would you be good with that? No. I know you wouldn't.
My point is the team has a cap and has a few players to sign. We don't know how the team is thinking of allocation money. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
Anyone out there willing to take a shot at explaining what happens in a 4-2 and/in-consideration-of the designations and duties of Will, Mike & Sam? Which two are still on the field?
Anyone out there willing to take a shot at explaining what happens in a 4-2 and/in-consideration-of the designations and duties of Will, Mike & Sam? Which two are still on the field?
That would be the SAM that comes off the field.
Ok. I copied this:
Sam
Because the tight end is usually on the strong side, and because the majority of teams are "right handed" running teams, the Sam linebacker is usually a more physical player. Sometimes, teams will want a player who can both stop the run and cover tight ends on an island at this position. Sean Weatherspoon is an example of a strong side LB who can cover TEs very well. Typically when a defense goes to a 4-2-5 Nickel defense, they will take the Sam linebacker off the field and replace him with a defensive back.
From here:https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2011/4/18/2110445/draft-terminology-the-sam-mike-and-will-linebackers
So my next question is who takes care of the responsibilities normally assigned to the SAM? I assume that the "extra" DB - or some DB- will likely cover the TE...but do the other LBs then have a change in responsibilities? Thinking about the Mike being one who regularly covers TEs - ala Shobert.
Rolling that forward...is the Mike really not so-much a Mike in the 4-2-5? Meaning that Goodson is unlikely to stay on in a 4-2 playing the traditional Mike role.
Disclaimer: I'm a little over my head here, so no one should assume that I'm some sort of guru here...because I simply am not.
55-60% in a nickel (a 3rd safety being the big nickel) 5-10% in a dime package and 30-35% with 3 LB's
I never much cared for depth charts on defense. I'm all about snap counts. Your 5th DB will play twice as many snaps as your 3rd LB (assuming players remain healthy).
GC. How do the Browns put out these linebackers and expect to be contenders.
How do the Browns put out these Tight ends, and these linebackers and expect to contend for the playoffs in the NFL in 2020.
I understand your concerns about the LB's, which are young and could turn out to be better than you think IMO, but the TE's, You lost me there, Austin Hooper, David Njuko, Harrison Bryant (Mackey Award Winner) and Stephan Carlson is a pretty nice position group ...
The TE group is extremely solid with the offseason additions.
The LB group, contrary to popular belief, should be plenty good enough when you consider Woods' words on wanting to shift to more of a Dime .... that means only ONE LBer out there with plenty of guys around him that can cover. He just needs to be a high-motor guided missile kinda player.
Heck, from reading his words, it sounds like we will almost never have 3 LBers out there at once, so it is very, very clear that we don't put a high premium on the position, nor do we need much from it.
Even if you only have one linebacker on the field you want that linebacker to be a quality one. As of right now I don’t see any quality LBs on our roster.
Even if you only have one linebacker on the field you want that linebacker to be a quality one. As of right now I don’t see any quality LBs on our roster.
If you only have one, he has a specific role. You want the player you put out there to be able to execute that role.
We've invested heavily on putting quite the coverage group behind that LB... the odds are pretty low that he is going to be expected to be able to cover everything thrown at him.
He is more likely to be asked to spy, to crash a gap, or to be a pass rusher. We have guys that can do those things.
You don't need superstars at every position. You need players that do their job. We'll see what job Woods gives our LBs.
I'm not sure coverage will be minimized as much as some hope. In one of Takitaki's interviews he mentioned coverage was one of the things he emphasized working on. I do think their responsibilities in coverage will be less extensive than Schobert's. Hopefully, a motivated Myles Garrett will keep QBs under duress and make their jobs easier.
Maybe if the Browns would stick with a top 3 of linebackers, think, Kirksey, Schobert, and Jamie Collins, and keep them for 4 years,
and the top 3 tight ends came back for 4 straight years, maybe that'd work.
The constant rebuilding we know does not work.
I'm less concerned with turnover in individual players and more concerned with change in systems. Players should get replaced as you can acquire better/more cost effective (not saying simply cheaper) ones. Problems come when you acquire players to do/because they can do certain things, and, then, the next set of guys "in charge" ask them to do something else. Ask guys to learn four languages in seven years, and ask them to do different things with each. Things are bound to get scrambled, and guys are trying to translate things through multiple languages and can get bogged down. It's hard to play fast when carrying excess baggage. College to pros can be enough of a culture shock. With us it never seems to end.
For example, they asked Cam Erving to learn guard, center, and tackle. On top of that, one year they were figuratively teaching him in Greek, the next Japanese, and with sign language after that. It's no wonder he got spun like a turnstile as much as things were likely spinning inside his head. Not only did he have to do all those mental gymnastics, but he also had to do them while constantly getting punched in the mouth.
I agree with your overall point, but your example was a poor one. The #1 reason Cam Erving didn't play well was because he wasn't very good.
I don't think we'll ever know the number 1 reason. Cam not being very good may be so (Erving did start and win a playoff game in KC), but the constant changes certainly didn't help. Cam Erving was the hyperbolic, nuclear option whose play fit the metaphor. How else could I work in a turnstile line to illustrate the head spinning? To me, he's the perfect example/juxtaposition for my point. It might be due to the few creative writing workshops I've been through, though.
I’m very curious to see how this defense works. One area we have consistently struggled with is covering TEs and the RB out of the backfield. We lost some talent in Joe Schobert and we’re weak or undetermined at best when it comes to LB and S.
One of the biggest mysteries for the Browns heading into the 2020 season is the linebacking corps.
Gone are all three of the listed starters from 2019.
Pro Bowl linebacker Joe Schobert left as an unrestricted free agent and signed a big contract with the Jaguars after being a steady, reliable contributor in the middle for the defense. Christian Kirksey was released in a cost-cutting move after two injury-plagued seasons and he signed with the Packers as a free agent. Adarius Taylor was released after one unproductive season with the Browns.
Second-year linebackers Mack Wilson and Sione Takitaki are the top holdovers, while the Browns added one unrestricted free agent in B.J. Goodson and drafted LSU's Jacob Phillips in the third-round. Those are the four primary linebackers expected to compete for the starting roles, although others in the mix are Willie Harvey, Tae Davis, Jermaine Grace, Montrel Meander, and undrafted rookie free agent Solomon Ajayi.
Goodson was a fourth-round draft choice of the Giants in 2016. He played three seasons in New York before joining the Packers last year. Goodson has 160 career tackles, including two interceptions. The Browns are hoping he can offset the loss of Schobert.
"B.J. Goodson in the room, who has played at a pretty high level in the NFL in certain football games for a couple different teams," First-year linebacker coach Jason Tarver said on a Zoom conference call on Wednesday.
Wilson played in 15 games as a rookie, including 14 starts with 81 tackles, one sack, one interception, seven passes broken up and a forced fumble. Wilson was a fifth-round draft choice in the 2019 NFL Draft from Alabama.
“No. 1, he improved with every rep that he had," Tarver said. "I do not remember the exact number. It was over 900 snaps so he is definitely not a rookie anymore. We don’t treat him like he is a rookie anymore. We don’t treat him like one. He got better as the season went, for sure. He knows his body. He likes contact. He got better and better and better at taking people on as the season went on. He does chase the ball. He plays with energy. He is one of the guys that we saw when we watched the video that did have energy and other guys rally around him."
Takitaki was almost non-existent as a rookie after injuring his hamstring in training camp. He was never able to break into the lineup, despite being a third-round draft choice in the 2019 NFL Draft. Takitaki appeared in 15 games, including one start at strong-side linebacker. Takitaki finished with 12 tackles.
"Sione had the early season injuries, but Sione for example, his field work that he is doing right now – it is really interesting because they are doing so much field work on their own – it is awesome," Tarver said. "He would put his helmet on and just got better and better at moving and running."
Despite no on the field work this offseason, the Browns are hoping Phillips can step in immediately and contribute.
“What we feel fortunate about is Jacob is a very smart, productive young man with high energy," Tarver said. "He is very productive. He is a good box player who just got more and more productive as he went through the year on a championship team. He is a winner, and he has good length, top speed and power in his body, which has improved throughout the offseason, which has been great to see."
Tarver said it's all about the group believing in themselves, despite what critics might say.
“The biggest thing is what I just said to you guys is the start is about us," Tarver said. "It matters what we do. It does not matter as much what is said. It all comes down to preparing ourselves so that when we get the attempt at making a big play or whatever it is, that we are in the right spot and we can do it. It is about us, and then being ourselves. As coaches, we want them to be the best player and best person they can be, and that is that identity piece.
"We are really focused on that at the moment because that is what we can control," he said. "The other stuff is the other stuff. As we get to that and hopefully, we are continuing to improve and get better every single week and our production is where it needs to be, that is what we are headed towards. We are going to really control [what we do], and in this environment this year, there is a lot of stuff moving around. We are expecting things to change because we do not even know when the start of training camp is yet. We are going to get our bodies in shape, our minds right and go from there.”
Tarver said there are no starters as the team heads to training camp.
“It’s an open competition,” Tarver said. “All of our guys have a chance. It’s open. That’s what’s exciting. The depth chart and things as you have heard from both Coach Stefanski and (defensive coordinator Joe) Coach Woods will be determined when we get into training camp and we can actually practice. The thing that we can control in this offseason is how well we know the scheme, and a lot of our linebacker position is interchangeable.
"In our room, it is a great competition from trying to get answers right to trying to do things better than the other guys, and that is what it is about," he said. "Everything is a competition.”
Wilson took over when Kirksey was injured in 2019 and he started 14 games on the weak side. Tarver said Wilson is versatile enough to move around.
“A lot of our linebacker positioning is interchangeable,” Tarver said. “They’re all going to have to do certain things. We’re going to rush them, we’re going to drop them. They’re all going to have to be in situations and do similar movements. A lot of that is to be determined. In our room there’s great competition.”
Tarver said he feels the Browns have the personnel to play in the system that Woods is using.
"We’ve got a good mix of body types and they all can run and shed and like contact,” he said. “Those are some things that we talk about becoming our identity when we get to play. With this group, you can see that upside. We’re excited about this mix. We’re going to see how this works, how guys are able to get in and who works best together and who takes advantage of their reps when we do get to practice. We’re excited about it and we do think we have the pieces to run Coach Woods’ scheme.”
There has been some talk that the Browns might look to add a veteran linebacker to the room, but Tarver said he will work with the players he has.
“Good players are good players," Tarver said. "I know Andrew (Berry) and Kevin are scouring all the time. That is their job. What we do as coaches, especially position coaches in the NFL, is we are going to give our best to each player in our room. I stay as strong and solidly focused as I can on that to help our players...We are going to give the guys that are in our room our very best because we can’t control those other things.”
Last year everyone said our OL would be/ could be a problem. It was and a big problem. This year it is our LB group. I don't think our LB's are as big a concern as our OL was last year. We have a lot of young talent there and if they are coached right I feel they can be more than adequate and yes, even good. JMO
Our LBing unit is worse than last year's OL. People keep discounting on how long Baker held the ball and how he abandoned clean pockets and ran into trouble. The OL was not very good, but folks overstate it.
Once again, the pass blocking ranked 17th. That is not awful. It's about average. The run blocking was 31st. That is really bad. Yet somehow, Chubb and Hunt ran well and our passing game sucked. Hmmmmmm..........
Former Alabama linebacker Mack Wilson was a defensive leader that shocked many with his decision to forego his senior collegiate season to enter the 2019 NFL Draft.
While some believed it to be a career-damaging decision, he is now primed to serve a key role on the Cleveland Browns’ defense for 2020 and make his name known across the league.
The beginning of Wilson’s break-out campaign has already happened, before the games started, before positional groups had their initial meetings and before players even reported for training camp.
The ongoing Coronavirus pandemic forced many people to make difficult decisions, and it has put a lot of individuals and organizations in an uncomfortable position. When the NFL offered players the option to opt out of the 2020 season without any repercussions, many jumped at the opportunity, citing personal health concerns or concerns over their loved ones.
In Wilson’s mind, it wasn’t a difficult decision. He was going to play football. In talking with the former Crimson Tide standout, this is what he had to say when posed the question by Roll Tide Wire:
“This is something that I want to do, obviously I want to make sure that everyone is protected and I know that it means a lot to everybody in the National Football League on them being safe,” said Wilson. “So, we just want to make sure that everybody does their part, and that everybody just makes sure that they are staying in their team bubble.”
He puts a lot of trust in his teammates and fellow NFL players in the hope that they follow protocol to keep everyone safe and the 2020 season running.
He likes the NFL’s plan in regards to constant, daily testing. In order for this season to work, Wilson believes that other players in the league must take it seriously to prevent a potential league-wide outbreak.
“I care about my health as well, don’t get that confused or anything, but I’m just going to stay in my bubble. I don’t want my family to come around me as much, because I never know if I will have it or if I do get it.”
Wilson was drafted in the fifth round back in 2019 by the Browns, much later than he had anticipated. This helped feed the argument from his critics that he should have stayed at Alabama for his senior season.
Despite the criticism at the time, Wilson was confident that he made the right decision.
“Everybody has their own opinions, sometimes I think to myself- I get in my football mode and just think about my football life in general, even from when I was younger. What would have happened if I came back for my senior year of college? Some things I could have done better from being younger all the way up to this point, I just had to go with my gut and do what was best for my family and myself.”
Being such a late-round pick, it was believed Wilson would be fighting for a spot on the roster. Instead, he worked his way into a significant role during his rookie season, playing in all 16 games and starting in 14 of them.
In those 16 appearances, the Alabama product recorded the second-highest tackle total (82) on the team to go along with seven pass deflections, a forced fumble and an interception.
Wilson’s numbers were commendable, but nothing that will bring him national attention — at least not yet.
The 6-foot-1, 233-pounder now looks to this upcoming season as his chance at a true breakout — or as Wilson likes to put it, his “Joe Burrow season.”
He explained that he believes Burrow had a perfect season in his last year of college and would like for his sophomore season in the league to be the defensive equivalent to that.
Wilson credits his significant amount of playing time as a rookie to being able to learn from in-game experiences and actively work on his craft.
“I feel like my rookie season, I made a lot of mistakes, just going back and looking at some of the games we played last season. I left a lot of plays on the field, I missed a lot of runs, blew a few coverages, just making a lot of rookie mistakes and I tried to fix those as we went on week by week, but this year I’m way more comfortable than I’ve ever been. I feel like this is like my sophomore year in college, I’m just comfortable.”
On top of being more comfortable on the field and more familiar with the playbook, Wilson is now looked to as a young leader on the defense.
“Coach is looking for me to be a leader on the defense and that’s what I’m going to do, even if I don’t have the green sticker on my helmet which me being the signal caller, the ‘mike’, I’m still going to be that leader on the defense, I’m still going to do whatever it takes to help us win.”
He also believes everyone on the defense serves a big role. A large part of that, according to Wilson, comes with “buying into the game plan,” which will now be led by first-year defensive coordinator Joe Woods.
With all the pieces put into place, it comes down to Wilson performing on the field and elevating Cleveland’s defensive potential. He feels the need to not only prove to Browns fans that he’s their guy, he wants to put the NFL on notice as a second-year player that is about to be thrusted into a leadership role.
“There’s always a lot to prove. And just always thinking about my experience from the NFL draft, and all the guys that were drafted in front of me. Like everybody says, 40-something guys at my position were better than me in that draft, and I always think about that. I’ve got a lot of goals.”
His primary goal is simple: “Do whatever I can to help this team win.” However, his personal goals for the season include: recording over 100 total tackles, hauling in at least seven interceptions and producing at least six sacks.
For only being a second-year player, Wilson is extremely team-oriented, and predicts a bright future for the recently struggling Browns. He has a Super Bowl winning vision for this Cleveland team, regardless of how many high-profile players are on the roster, he knows it’s the small things that lead a team to victory.
“Everybody sees how much talent we have, what kind of team we could be. Everybody’s going to be talking about Baker, but people don’t understand the work we have to put in in order to be successful. As a team we are just going to take it one week at a time, one game at a time. Most importantly, win our division, get in the playoffs and try our best to fight to get to the Super Bowl.”
What stands in the way of Cleveland’s success isn’t another team, according to Wilson, only themselves. The idea of supporting each other and putting the team first seems to be the overall theme for the 2020 Browns squad.
I remember reading along time ago a scout say: "scouting is difficult because you can never know how bad someone wants it."
You can do all the Combine. You can put up all the measurables. But some will rise from pure determination.
Often the second year of a players career is key. They go from awkward and uncomfortable and having to think about what their doing. To just playing lose and reacting.
A position like linebacker can see big jumps in awareness going into the second year.
We will need those big steps from Wilson and Taki.
Mack is gonna put up some big numbers this year. I'm just wanting to know who will be tag teaming it with him. I'm hoping Taki. I think Mack-a-Tak could be something special.
Mack is gonna put up some big numbers this year. I'm just wanting to know who will be tag teaming it with him. I'm hoping Taki. I think Mack-a-Tak could be something special.
I find it ironic that he was the 2nd leading tackler on the team despite “how bad” he played last year yet Joe Shobert who may be the worst block shedding/tackling LBer in the nfl is praised on here ...
Lots of folks like Joe a lot, including posters who know a lot about football. Lots of folks didn't want to overpay for him ... I believe (from memory) he got good grades for pass protection from PFF but not so good grades for run support and that was probably because of lack of block shedding and getting tangled up by blockers. I would have preferred to keep him on the basis of better the devil you know and we had / have cap space that wouldn't have been decimated by keeping him. Losing him also creates a void to fill and question marks. I think he's a stand up guy and a positive influence on the locker room to boot.
I am looking forward to seeing if any of the youth movement that we have at LBer take a big leap forward.
I will miss him; we will miss him. That said, his position must improve if thetas is to finish better. He was a coach on the field veteran and that is undeniably true. He did outplay guys around him, at least in some stats. Ourecord says it wasn't enough to carry the team, and there is no shame, and quite certainly no lack of effort in his body of work. But we need to pursue bettering the bar. I will miss him, and I also wanted to watch him here. I can still wish him well.
The Browns have the worst starting LBs in the AFC. Other than that playoff year and last year the Browns have always been weak at LB. Look at all the bums that suited up. Chaun Thompson...Kaluka Maivia....Scott Fujita.. That stiff from Macedonia.....Tresnick.. And all those years the Browns were near the bottom vs the run.
This topic got me talking earlier about our best LBs since 1999. Which (let’s say 3-5) players would you guys put in that category?
Andra Davis? Jamir Miller? Dwayne Rudd? Joe Schobert? Karlos Dansby? Earl Holmes?
D'Qwell Jackson #1 (might be one of the best in the history of the team) Andra Davis #2 Schobert #3 Craig Robertson #4 Jabaal Sheard/Willie McGinest #5
This topic got me talking earlier about our best LBs since 1999. Which (let’s say 3-5) players would you guys put in that category?
Andra Davis? Jamir Miller? Dwayne Rudd? Joe Schobert? Karlos Dansby? Earl Holmes?
D'Qwell Jackson #1 (might be one of the best in the history of the team) Andra Davis #2 Schobert #3 Craig Robertson #4 Jabaal Sheard/Willie McGinest #5
Those first few years we were chugging through vets for one or two seasons, but Jamir Miller was an absolute beast (easy).
Andra Davis was solid, but I'd prefer D'Qwell Jackson between the two (it still kills me that he didn't get his pro bowl nod until after he left Cleveland, even though he was the QB of our only good defensive season, crap...was that 2010-2011-ish?).
Let's pause to remember the early Wimbley, Jackson, Davis, McGinest LB years. Yeah, no where near Pitt's 3-4 LB squads but still fun to watch, and I always preferred our ILB's to Pitt's, too bad their OLB's were playing at a hall of fame clip back then.
BTW, are we counting Jabaal Sheard as a LB for the couple years we were in a 3-4 with him? I always liked Jabaal. Or Paul Kreuger for that matter? He was...err..decent for a couple seasons. Maybe I'll just stick with guys who could actually play off-ball sense the issues we have now are not with stand up edge rushers.
I actually like Karlos Dansby for his short stint. And yes, the pre-injury Kirksey was still better than I think a lot of people give him credit for (though 2 years of garbage right after signing your big-money deal will do that).
Yeah, a short list I guess.
Jamir Miller (FA) Q'Qwell Jackson Andra Davis Earl Holmes (FA- briefly) Dwayne Rudd (FA- briefly) Karlos Dansby (FA- briefly) Joe Schobert Christian Kirksey
Well, Schobert and Kirksey were both good for two years. Outside of that we have apparently only drafted two off-ball LBers that made any difference...ugh.
Congratulations to D'Qwell Jackson I guess for being our bet drafted LB
Man...flipping through those season by season rosters on Wikipedia really takes you back. I'm getting old.
Browns linebacker Mack Wilson carted off with a left knee injury and will be further evaluated Updated 5:05 PM; Today 3:48 PM Cleveland Browns training camp, August 17, 2020 Cleveland Browns linebacker Mack Wilson at training camp, August 17, 2020, in Berea.John Kuntz, cleveland.com
Facebook Share Twitter Share 155 shares By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com BEREA, Ohio -- It’s been a rough first two days in pads for Browns linebacker Mack Wilson.
On Monday, he horsecollared Nick Chubb to the ground after a catch in the left flat, and caused the running back to suffer a concussion when his head hit the ground. On Tuesday, Wilson was demoted to second-team linebacker behind Tae Davis for taking out the team’s star running back on a dangerous and illegal hit, and then went down midway through practice with what proved to be a left knee injury.
The extent of the injury is unknown, and Wilson, the starting weakside ‘backer, is undergoing further evaluation, the Browns said.
It occurred during a 7-on-7 drill, when Wilson broke up a pass and then crumpled to the ground. He threw his helmet off, indicating he knew immediately it could be serious. His fellow linebackers crowded around him while he was on the ground with the trainers tending to him. Two members of the medical staff then helped him to the sideline, with Wilson limping and not putting weight on the left leg.
Doctors worked on the knee again on the sidelines, apparently checking for signs of ligament damage. They soon called for the cart, and Wilson got on and made the long ride into the fieldhouse sitting up with his legs out in front of him, but with his head down in his hands.
Nick Chubb in the concussion protocol
If Wilson is lost for any length of time, the Browns will likely have to add some depth at an already thin position. The starting linebackers for camp have been Wilson on the weakside, Sione Takitaki on the strongside and free-agent pickup B.J. Goodson in the middle.
There’s precious little experience at the position, and the Browns were already keeping an eye out for more talent.
It was a bizarre sequence of events in the span of 24 hours for Wilson.
Coach Kevin Stefanski admitted before practice “it’s fair’' to say he wasn’t happy about the horsecollar tackle, which landed his starting running back in the concussion protocol. With only 14 padded practices and the opener on Sept. 13 against the Ravens, the Browns can ill afford to be without starters for any length of time.
In other practice news, Myles Garrett (hamstring), Larry Ogunjobi (groin), and Damion Ratley (groin) were idle. Jarvis Landry (hip) and Karl Joseph (foot) were back in pads after sitting out Monday.
Sounds bad. Let’s hope Phillips and Taki Taki can step up
At some point, we have to hit on some mid round picks, whether that be Wilson, Phillips, Taki, etc. All great teams have guys drafted in all rounds and undrafted contributing. That's what we need.
I mean Wilson and Phillips were starters on powerhouse teams in the SEC. Coach them up, develop them. We can't field a team full of first rounders.
Sounds bad. Let’s hope Phillips and Taki Taki can step up
At some point, we have to hit on some mid round picks, whether that be Wilson, Phillips, Taki, etc. All great teams have guys drafted in all rounds and undrafted contributing. That's what we need.
I mean Wilson and Phillips were starters on powerhouse teams in the SEC. Coach them up, develop them. We can't field a team full of first rounders.
The constant turnover likely is the culprit here. Guys in the mid rounds need to be developed. We draft guys and then the coaches that drafted them are gone a year later. The only mid round guy that we drafted that will play significant snaps is Ogunjobi.
Sounds bad. Let’s hope Phillips and Taki Taki can step up
At some point, we have to hit on some mid round picks, whether that be Wilson, Phillips, Taki, etc. All great teams have guys drafted in all rounds and undrafted contributing. That's what we need.
I mean Wilson and Phillips were starters on powerhouse teams in the SEC. Coach them up, develop them. We can't field a team full of first rounders.
The constant turnover likely is the culprit here. Guys in the mid rounds need to be developed. We draft guys and then the coaches that drafted them are gone a year later. The only mid round guy that we drafted that will play significant snaps is Ogunjobi.
Hoping we grab Alec Ogletree...Not a great LB, but I think he can step in and lead our group...I mean he was all pro once, and was graded right around Joe Scho according to PFF...Still only 28 years old as well. I know NY dumped him as he wasn't worth his contract.
Hoping we grab Alec Ogletree...Not a great LB, but I think he can step in and lead our group...I mean he was all pro once, and was graded right around Joe Scho according to PFF...Still only 28 years old as well. I know NY dumped him as he wasn't worth his contract.
Ima UGA guy so I'm bias, but I mentioned we should have grabbed Ogletree a long time ago.
Hope for the best but expect the worse...hope the hyperextention was not serious and requiring season ending surgery.
But it is what it is...What I do know Solid LBs are out there and a position with many candidates. Just got to do our work and get LBs that can play in our system. BJ Goodson is going to have to step up.
Linebacker seems to be a position we are not investing heavily in... I feel there's a definite strategy involved here. We may sign someone but we also may not.
Here is a great article I found...that has in depth details around the injury...Let's all hope it's something that heal in 2-3 weeks, then again it can be the opposite spectrum as well.
I'm thinking back to K2's motorcycle knee injury; it may be a week before swelling goes down enough for them to even do any decent imaging of the soft tissues to determine real damage.
I fully expect that the FO is proceeding today, proactively, as if Mack won't be back this year and are busy evaluating options and beginning to talk to agents. I don't expect they will pull the trigger on any of that until and unless he either requires surgery or is expected to miss enough time to warrant going on IR... unless they have the space on the 80-man roster right now and anticipate carrying a potential replacement AND Mack on the opening day roster.
I agree with you to an extent. But I think one would have to consider that an NFL medical staff has dealt with enough knee injuries to have a pretty good idea if it's serious or not. Nothing conclusive mind you, but a pretty good idea.
5 free-agent LB Cleveland Browns should sign to replace Mack Wilson
by Nick Dudukovich Factory of Sadness (Blog) / Fansided Aug 19, 2020
1. Darron Lee
Every Buckeye fan knows the name of Darron Lee, a linebacker who played a critical role in helping Ohio State capture the inaugural College Football Playoff national title.
Lee continued to play well in the following season, turning himself into a first-round pick in 2016.
That’s when his career starting trending downward, though. Lee started in 2017 and 2018, but the results weren’t great. He was popped for PEDs toward the end of the 2018. The Jets cut and ran, sending Lee to Kansas City where he played primarily special teams.
Lee’s athleticism got rave reviews coming out of college, and it’s why the Browns should, at the very least, kick the tires on the central Ohio native. Lee hasn’t had a severe injury, and he’s just going to be turning 26 in October.
Something else to consider: The Jets tried to play Lee in a 3-4, when a 4-3 scheme is probably the optimal scheme you’d like to see him in.
The Browns liked Wilson so much because he could fly all over the field. Without him, they need someone who can try and fill that role, and considering who’s available right now, Lee’s one of just a few options.
2. Alec Ogletree
The Browns should look at Alec Ogletree, but the veteran shouldn’t be the top priority in trying to find someone to fill in for Mack Wilson.
The University of Georgia product has logged a lot of miles since being a first-round pick of the Rams back in 2012.
That said, he’s experienced, still flashes some nice speed and has a veteran where-with-all that the Browns could certainly use. Sure, that doesn’t matter to the analytically oriented front office, but this team needs bodies–and the Browns are desperate.
Perhaps the Browns add him, and rotate him with someone such as WIllie Harvey and Tae Davis. While Ogletree’s durable, he’s not exactly been a stalwart at stopping the run or dropping back into coverage.
That said, he could be used situationally as a blitzer, where he compiled a 76.0 game from PFF last season.
3. Jake Ryan
Hard to believe that Jake Ryan is still looking for a job. The Michigan product was a fourth-round pick of the Packers in 2015.
In 2016 and 2017, Ryan really put together two nice seasons, compiling 163 total tackles and 11 quarterbacked hits. His career was derailed by an ACL injury that cost him all of the 2018 season. He played just 35 snaps in two games with the Jags during the 2019 campaign.
Free agency started promising for the Westlake native, as he landed with the Ravens, but the marriage was short lived. Baltimore picked up some linebackers in the draft and Ryan was eventually released with a non-football injury designation.
If the Ravens thought enough of him to give him a deal, the Browns should be willing to do so, as well, if he’s healthy.
Now’s the time to take a look at him. There were no mini camps or OTAs, so it’s unclear what type of shape he’s in.
That said, there is no risk in signing Ryan to a cheap, prove-it type deal. If he can’t play, you release him and Cleveland’s stuck in the same spot as they were before.
4. Clay Matthews
Our own Chad Porto made the case as to why the Browns should take on the 37-year-old veteran. Sure, he’s a future Hall of Famer, and the Browns won’t be getting the player that accrued all those stats, but Matthews can still cause problems at linebacker, as well as on the edge as a pass rusher.
Fans, writers and talk show hosts have been making the Matthews connection to Cleveland ever since Christian Kirksey was released. It amplified after Joe Schobert signed a free-agent deal with the Jags and, when the Browns waited until late in the third round to draft Jacob Phillips, it seemed like signing Matthews was a given.
Nothing happened though, which makes you wonder what’s going on. Perhaps the Browns aren’t interested. Matthews is old and the analytically driven front office doesn’t sign a lot of old guys. Perhaps Matthews’ asking price is too high–that’s hard to believe, and it’s not a good excuse, either.
The Browns are loaded with cap space and need help at this position. No one is saying invest Myles Garrett-type money in Matthews, just get him here to help for 2020!
5. Mark Barron
The Browns recent moves have shown what they think of the linebacking corps and the value it provides to a roster. They clear priorities are on the edge and in the secondary.
Well, having ignored the position group has caught up with the franchise, as the injury to Mack Wilson looks to be one the Browns might not be able to cover up.
Under John Dorsey, the Browns knew their linebacking corps was in trouble, which is why the team tried to use three safeties and two linebackers.
Well, what if they could deploy a “dime backer,” or basically a linebacker to come in on 3rd downs that would help in passing situations.
Enter Mark Barron. He’s 31, but logged 70 percent of the Steelers’ defensive snaps last season. Plus, he should be affordable.
So what's the prognosis on Mack? I've been looking and haven't see anything. His tweet suggested he might be done for the year or at least a long time, but I haven't seen anything official.
we just need to pick the dog with the least fleas and move on. Our lb core needs 2-4 new players next year anyway (depending on the scheme we go with).
there is a real possiblity we only have a MLB on the field for signifcant portions of the game.
(515) could be here to stay or a (614) on pass rushing downs
we just need to pick the dog with the least fleas and move on. Our lb core needs 2-4 new players next year anyway (depending on the scheme we go with).
there is a real possiblity we only have a MLB on the field for signifcant portions of the game.
(515) could be here to stay or a (614) on pass-rushing downs
Malcolm Smith is a journeyman who is basically league average. I would think that he's better in coverage than B.J. Goodson just based on his size but I don't know much about his actual play.
Any LB still unsigned is unsigned for a reason. There will be no one on the market that will Be able save this group as a whole Why they didn't sign a Josh Bynes is beyond me
As I said before. The Browns would prefer to sign somebody who is familiar with our Defensive system. It doesn't mean they will, but they would prefer it at this point in time.
Great list. Please read it to FO. We need some help.
Since 1989,... the same story, the Browns need to sign someone to fill some hole roster wise.
Other NFL teams don't seem to have this need, as often.
I think the team will find a fine player, not really of interest to me. Less worrisome because I think Mack Wilson wasn't a very good player anyway, at least not this stage of his playing years.
So what's the prognosis on Mack? I've been looking and haven't see anything. His tweet suggested he might be done for the year or at least a long time, but I haven't seen anything official.
By Dan Labbe, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio -- We spent so much time this offseason talking about linebackers. Why didn’t the Browns do a better job addressing the position? Who’s going to play where? What does this front office and coaching staff even think of linebackers?
Not to make too much of the first two weeks of training camp, but let’s make too much of the first two weeks of training camp and say we feel pretty good about the linebackers, at least for now.
It starts with B.J. Goodson, who has established himself in the middle of the defense. You see and hear Goodson throughout practice, and it’s not just because he’s a linebacker wearing No. 93. Goodson is on his way to wearing the green sticker this season and then the position can really build out from there.
Sione Takitaki has played well, a nice development, especially given the loss of Mack Wilson. Jacob Phillips, the third-round pick, has wiggled up the depth chart and might make a push to start. Tae Davis, a special-teamer last year, is getting some run.
Things get different when the season starts and teams are game-planning for you, finding every little weakness and coming up with ways to exploit it, but it’s safe to say we feel a lot better about the linebacker position than we did a month ago, even if Wilson ends up missing the season.
Mary Kay Cabot and I talked more about the linebackers in Friday’s texter edition of the Orange and Brown Talk Podcast, where we took questions from our Football Insider subscribers. Scroll down to get your free trial started. Click here to listen to the podcast or use the player below.
I am encouraged by this. I still think that a serviceable defense has to be strong down the middle. But if we have a workable MLB, well, things aren't rosy, but we aren't getting gouged at LB after JS moving on and shedding Wilson. may find some more. And if MKC is covering it, then an important story it must be.
Well Wilks didn't put to much emphasis on the LB position ( or use them correctly ) and I see much the same in Woods so far. The flavor of D has been this hybrid 4/2 which I really don't like ...
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