Love it.

Good idea by Hooper ... he cited his chemistry w/Matt Ryan as his biggest reason for success

Glad Hooper is there. He really needs to develop that chemistry. Really hoping Odell and Baker make it a point to work together in the offseason. I know Odell likes to do his own thing, but the lack of chemistry between the two was readily apparent last year.

They worked together last off-season too.

OBJ and Landry aren’t attending because they are rehabbing injuries.

They threw the ball around for one day. It was more of just getting to see one another rather than texting. That's according to Njoku.

Better clarify: I'm talking about last year.

Very glad to see that the guys are going to work out this year.

Good. Most importantly, it will allow them to bond and develop a chemistry.

Odell and Baker thought last year they could
Just Show up and magic would happen
It doesn't work like that In the NFL
Without hard work

Refreshing to see someone actually take the initative on this team

What's been lacking since 1999.
Leadership and accountability. ...strong
Work ethics

You don't miss the playoffs or finish below
.500 cause your work ethic is strong
Or their is a room full of leaders

Great to hear about this as we hear less more and more. Tear it up!

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2011/05/cleveland_browns_third_camp_co.html

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2018/07/how_tyrod_taylor_footed_the_bi.html

Certainly a good thing to hear. Nothing can replace reps on the field.

Team building

No. In Austin. There is a pandemic.

Apparently Jarvis is working out with Donovan-Peoples in Miami. He must be coming along well on his rehab.

Hope they were not hanging out with Deandre Baker.

Barker is toast along with his partner in crime!

Austin Hooper deserves 3 words of accolade,

Set the tempo

I wonder if the coaches can virtually attend, call out a play, run mock 2 minute offense etc. I am not sure but there has to be some new language, time to get it going!! Woof Woof

hopefully they got the new playbook to the QBs at least??? Don't know the rules about that but these new coaches should get that opportunity during these times.

jmho - good to hear about camp Austin!

Utter nonsense!!!

Watching some videos, it appears the players do have play books. Or scheme outlines. I know Bryant was shown looking at a play on a laptop and using poker chips as an aid to show the line up

The players 100% have playbooks.

Raise the bar!

I hope he lights up the field. Want to see his game.

They did...check out Hollywood:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAA800ygWhQ/?igshid=ze3rrwzyvbsq

jk

This is so obviously staged and not really impressive at all to me.

Show me this in a real game situation and then I will be impressed.

Wow! Neat beat, but I am not sure it is able to be game usable. I mean the DB has hands all over receivers. But I also one-handed grabs were out of the question. Had to re-visit that.

But it is a sparkler of a catch. Nice post.

Yo, I did that all the time back in my playground days.

Jarvis Landry providing mentorship for 'eager to learn' WR Donovan Peoples-Jones

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/jar...n-peoples-jones

When Jarvis Landry received a text message from Donovan Peoples-Jones on Day 3 of the 2020 NFL Draft, he originally didn't think too much of it.

Landry tuned into the first two days of the draft for the Browns' first four selections. Day 3 featured rounds 4-7, but Landry, who had been in touch with Peoples-Jones for wide receiver advice in the weeks leading up the draft, didn't plan to watch as closely.

So, when Peoples-Jones sent Landry a message in the early afternoon, he figured it was simply about when he would be selected that day.

"Man, I can't wait," the message from Peoples-Jones read.

"Yeah, I know," replied Landry, who added that he was thinking about Peoples-Jones earlier in the day. "I can't wait either."

Then, Landry swiped out of the messages and checked Instagram. One of the first pictures that appeared was of People-Jones. The post was from the Browns. He was their sixth-round selection and Landry's newest teammate.

Landry misread the text message from Peoples-Jones. He was coming to Cleveland.

"I was like, 'Oh, wait. We drafted you,'" Landry said with a laugh Wednesday in a Zoom call with local reporters. "It was kind of like an awkward moment, but it was also a good moment to understand and know being around him and understanding his work ethic that we are getting a guy who can help us with all of the potential he has."

Landry had been receiving plenty of messages from Peoples-Jones before the draft and they've understandably increased since the Browns tabbed the Michigan standout with their final selection of the weekend. The two originally met in Florida when Peoples-Jones visited to train for the scouting combine, and he continued to poke Landry for tips about being an NFL wide receiver before the draft began.

It didn't take long for Peoples-Jones to mention his rapport with Landry in his video conference after the selection.

"Me and him have started to develop our relationship," said Peoples-Jones, who also said he met with Odell Beckham Jr. before the draft. "Those guys are Pro Bowl guys. I just can't wait to learn from them."

I'm hoping that Landry reclaims his rightful spot as the team leader this year. Freddie handing it to Baker was a catastrophe.

Respect is earned, not given.

The team voted Baker a captain, not Freddie.

I wasn't talking about captains.

You weren't talking about captaincy - what were you talking about? Honest question - I didn't read anything about Freddie making Baker a leader of the team. I didn't see it on the field either... Baker plays the most important position - but that doesn't automatically make him a leader either. Rookie year you could make a case that he started to lead the team because he was successful and has that energy to rally or enthuse the team ... last year we didn't see that because week 1 they got smacked in the mouth and never really seemed to feel good about themselves again the rest of the season. It feels like you are looking to agitate posters by trying to manufacture a reason to connect Baker to something negative. . . . If you had said it was disappointing that Baker wasn't a leader - or didn't step up last year, and in fact regressed, I could have agreed. But I don't think Freddie handed anything to Baker regards leadership - and I don't think Landry's impact or voice on the team was muted.

I'll add that in terms of leadership - I think the feedback from nearly all the teams Baker plays on is that they love to play for/with him. But in addition to that I'd like to see Baker progress in terms of leadership by being seen to be one of the hardest workers on the team who commits 100% to his craft - and by learning to prevent media contrived controversy by biting on 'gotcha' questions (whether real or imagined). I think he can still 'be Baker' without feeding the media by blowing up with knee jerk emotional responses to questions.

I think it's completely understandable that a coach wants/encourages his QB to take more of a leadership role. It doubly makes sense when they appear to want to make airing the ball out a staple of the offense. I think that's one of the few Freddie failures that I don't really hold against him. I think it's clear Baker wasn't ready for all of the weight (in terms of executing the new offense, and handling the new dynamics of the locker room) placed on him.

It's very rare to have a guy that can step in right away and be an effective leader. I think Baker can be that leader, but this is just another example of how he failed but folks around him really didn't do him any favors.

I think Baker can be a leader. My comment had more to do w/Landry than Baker. I just think that Landry is a better leader at this particular point in time. Watching Hard Knocks was eye-opening. We all remember his tirade in the WR room, but Landry was constantly leading in a multitude of ways during those episodes and he continued to demonstrate those qualities during the season. I think he has the respect of most players. Hell, I think DPJ's comments are an indication of that.

I agree. I'm just not so sure he stopped being a leader. The one thing that did definitely stop, though, was the cameras. I imagine that Landry was still a leader, but we just weren't seeing it on-screen as much.

I think OBJ had EVERYTHING to do with VG seemingly to have taken a step back leadership wise ... i think VG may have “backed off” cause OBJ was one of the top WR’s in the league and still is in most fans eyes ...

I also think after the way 18 ended and Bake being the QB he should have become the main leader ... after last year i agree with u that to start the season VG should go back to being the team leader ... its all ready showing a smidge with Peoples ... thats a position thing also but maybe a sign of things to come ...

HOPEFULLY Bake is Bake again and takes back the main leader role As the season goes on ... your QB being your leader is where it needs to be ...


IMO he earned it his rookie year .. now he needs to re-earn it IMO ...

GOOD LUCK BAKE ... WE NEED U BUD ..

I agree with you AGAIN! Haha ... Landry’s alpha-ness took a step back when OBJ came in (funny how chemistry is like that). We kinda had it Rolling in 2018 and lost our mojo

I don't agree w/the Landry/OBJ thing at all.

Me neither. Landry is a true leader. I think he always was OBJs leader at LSU. The "big" brother. OBJ has even stated this before. Jarvis is who motivated him at LSU. IMO, even if Baker becomes a leader, Landry will always be one too. Being the face of the team, doesn't necessarily make you the locker room leader, that is earned thru work.

I don't disagree that Landry is a natural leader on this team and I don't believe it has to be a choice between Landry or Baker. But there were times last season where Landry wasn't locked on and came off as being more concerned with palling around with OBJ i.e. the shoes debacle. To his credit he did get back on track.

Agreed. People assume that OBJ is the leader of the two because he has acquired more fame and media attention and perhaps because he has had more success. However, this is about personalities and Landry is by fare the more out-going of the two. He is much more vocal and embraces the leadership role. OBJ is more quiet and introspective. People don't like OBJ and try to blame him for all kinds of things that simply are not true.

I think they both feed off each other. They were best buds at LSU, but as people get older, things change.

I don't know what the dynamics are today.

NRTU,

In team sports, leadership is not a zero-sum game. There will be multiple leaders. In the best organizations all the leaders are on the same page in terms of goals. They will give each other room to lead in ways that are most effective, given their personalities and as situations call for. As long as team goals remain the first priority it is fine that they don't all lead the same way. There will be times when one leader may be more visible than another. That does not diminish their leadership.

As fans its possible that some of us get the impression that the one who talks the most (to the media) is The Leader. To me the most important aspects of leadership are about all the things that are done when there are no cameras.

The same can be said of people who don't like Baker.

It seems to me there are always two factions. Those who wish to place too much blame on Baker and those who wish to place no blame on Baker.

Neither are correct. Often times it seems that those who wish to place a reasonable amount of blame on Baker are labeled as someone who tries to place too much blame on Baker.

I don't think people place too much blame on Baker. I do think that some folks resort to insults and personal attacks if one tries to be honest about Baker's issues. I also think some post just to start trouble, like the dude you responded to.

I tried to cover some of what you're saying with the last sentence of my previous post.

Well, in the internet age everyone seems to ignore to real majority in favor of the aural majority... the majority of people are right in the middle. The problem here is there is always a rush to place labels on everyone according to a few posts in which they may differ in opinion from people foaming at the mouth from one of the two factions you spoke of.

Shhhhh...you're going to blow their minds. They'll probably have to read that like twenty times.

Honestly yet to meet or see anyone who places 'no blame' on Baker. Eo is probably the staunchest supporter of Baker who doesn't talk too much about Baker's struggles last year. Device is someone who supports Baker very strongly but also acknowledges he regressed last year and his struggles were more than just the result of Freddie and the other issues that have been discussed.

I do see at least one poster try to drag Baker into any discussion he can and frame the discussion in a negative way about Baker. And at least one who has pronounced him a bust and wanted the Browns to draft a QB this year.

As per Fate's post - I think the overwhelming majority think Baker owned a bunch of his issues last year - and his issues were made significantly worse through multiple factors, none more impactful than Freddie.

I certainly agree that all of Baker's struggles do not rest solely on his shoulders. It was a combination of many factors. Baker himself simply being one of them.

Not me as far as your reasons for why I think VG took a backseat to OBJ .. I base it off the fact at TC OBJ took the first rep and VG the last one ... and the fact everyone that played with OBJ said what a great teammate he is and the more star power u have the more built in credibility u have ...

I think OBJ is a diva and has issues ... i thought he was GREAT last year as far as his behavior is concerned ... the watch and shoe thing were BS and moronic ... its part of why i think he’s a diva but that had zero to do with what happened in between the white lines ...

No one is saying that Baker is completely at fault. The problem is that the guys you are responding to freak out every time one tries to have an intelligent conversation about the dude. I posted stats of Baker's season and 888 freaked out about my "agenda."

They also take statements and expound on them and turn them into lies. For example, devide says I put half the blame on Baker for the team being undisciplined and cocky. That isn't true. I mentioned him in the fact that he was part of that problem last year. 888 says things like I claim that people don't put any blame on Baker. Another lie. I have said that people make a lot of excuses for Baker. That's not the same thing. They do that to discredit the poster. It happens over and over and over again. And they get away w/it and some of us know why.

I don't know, bro. Maybe you are right. I just think that Landry is more of the outgoing, leader type person and OBJ is more quiet and introspective.

I don't think Landry took a back-seat in terms of leadership to OBJ last year. I don't even think OBJ wants to be a vocal leader. I think Freddie wanted Baker to be the leader. I understand that because he is the qb and has a strong personality. I also think that he didn't handle it well. The Duke thing, the Rex Ryan thing, the Daniel Jones thing, the Cowerd thing, the Grossi thing, the constant media battle thing, the wanting to fight a fan thing, the wife saying Brown's fans are idiots and front-runners thing, the beach thing, the 3-step drop thing, etc, etc, etc.

Teams can have multiple leaders, but in my opinion, I think Landry should be the guy who is the main leader because his head is on more straight than the others.

Not saying I am right or you have to agree........just stating my opinion.

Feel like Baker is working on his release time, gotta get the ball out a little quicker.

the question is: does this mean mechanics or recognizing defenses?

I always felt, within the first few weeks, he never was comfortable.

I’m still of the mindset that Freddie is the worst head coach we’ve ever had. No skill position player seemed to know what they were doing on offense (aside from Chubb).

Give Baker an offense he’s comfortable in, and he’ll get the ball out quicker. It’s not just reading a defense, it’s mixing that defense with your offense.

It’s as if by week 3, Freddie should have just grabbed the previous season’s playbook, because what he constructed clearly wasn’t something that fit well with Baker. Considering the entire offense flows through a QB, if he ain’t comfortable with it, better change the plan.

Early on, it was evident something was wrong, yet Freddie never adapted. It’s being the head coach of the sixers and having the offense predicate on Ben Simmons putting up isolation 3s as if he’s James Harden or something

In Freddie's defense, he did utilize more 12 and 13 personnel after it was evident that Baker and the OL were struggling w/11 personnel. Once again, 11 personnel packages were the most prevalent package in the NFL the last time I actually looked it up, which was last year when I started the Offensive Scheme thread.

I do not think Freddie was a good HC. Quite the opposite, but I think things are being exaggerated in that regard.

Maybe. By that time we were trotting out the likes of Demetrius Harris and Pharoh Brown. I liked Ricky seals Jones, but none of those guys were near Njokus level IMO. We never should have let go of Fells.

Anyway, either way, the offense had no chemistry and it was clear very early on that it wasn’t for Baker. I think the big mistake was that we didn’t recognize this earlier and adapt before the season began. It’s as if because we had OBJ and Jarvis, we would just make it work. Instead, it looked disorganized and underprepared.


People keep settling ultimatums and expectations before we’ve even held a practice this offseason. I saw on twitter Gil Brandt talk about major improvement or we won’t pick up his fifth year option. To me, this is nonsense. Barring an internal implosion where we have a top five pick, I see no point to that. And we can worry about that when the time comes. One thing clear with Andrew Berry is that he’s prepared. Preparation takes effort and organization . That’s controllable. Berry is the kind of guy who understands this

Who are you talking about?

Sorry, that cracked me up...of course it was staged and if he does that in a game I hope he gets cut.

How can I explain. Its like in baseball we all use to come of with catches shagging flies in BP. How many times I would run to my left and purposely over run the ball and snag it behind my back...but if I did that in a real game I would bench myself for doing it. So doing trick catches like that of course are Staged how is it any other way???

Glad he has the mad skills to do that. But wish him to do just one collective thing. Run good routes and catch the ball!

Folks I see on Browns Twitter. I think the board a month or two ago.

Haven’t been on here as much lately. Was leading up to the draft, but once I go out to work at sea I have less time for the board. Twitter is much easier with the cellphone

Here’s what I read about Brandt

Thanks.

I'm not sold on Baker, but I think it is way too early for that kind of talk. We have a lot invested in him and should do all we can to support him these next two years.

I am sold on Baker. lol.

But other than that, i completely agree.


If he bombs out this year, and we end up 1-15 with Trevor Lawrence staring us in the face, sure, we might want to look for other options.

I really don't see that happening. At all.


Hopefully training camp starts on time, we get a full-season, these Zoom Meetings go as well as possible, and this team comes into this season prepared. I want to be the Titans Week 1, not the Browns (last season week 1). Disciplined and prepared.


I am excited about this offense though. OBJ and Jarvis on the outside. Hooper and Njoku as TE's. Nick Chubb in the backfield. Packages that sub in Hunt, Higgins, and Janovich. Our starting lineup looks pretty darn good.

If everyone can get on the same page, it'll be wonderful. Hopefully Baker connects with Odell this year, the same way he all of a sudden did with Jarvis last season.

Nick Chubb is perfect for this scheme too.

I'm already over Basketball and Baseball season. I really hope we can get a real football season this year though

One second you said your statement was more about Landry than Baker ... then you manufacture an excuse to air Baker's dirty laundry. On one thread Baker's wife's tweet are a massive disruption and on another OBJ gets a complete pass over the visor, the watch the shoes.... Maybe it's me, it seems manufactured and intended to antagonize and create conflict on the board. . . . . as for wanting him to succeed? Sure - #cantwaittillheisgone - that screams out to me that you want him to succeed. Pretty sure that if Baker had lead an expletive laden rally speech at last year's training camp on HBO - it would have been listed as an example of lacking leadership skills too.

I hope Baker plays like his rookie year - or better - and I hope players like Landry and MG and others (possibly including Baker) lead by example with regard to work ethic, conduct and applying themselves to all things 'Browns' ... I also hope that Stefanski can keep Baker's fire burning while also coaching him to create less opportunities for the media to show his worst side.

Jc

I think we’ll be able to tell by mid season if Bakers struggles had to do with Freddie more than anything. I expect him to be more comfortable and utilized more efficiently

- 2 new tackles ....
- a healthy OBJ and VG
- Hooper
- Chubb/Hunt

That’ll help any QB overcome a lot of issues ... I’m expecting big things from Bake this year .. On top of the talent listed above u can add the fact he has a major chip on his shoulder after being embarrassed last year and he has seemed to mature in his dealings with the press ... at least i hope he has and that’s a reflection of a more mature Bake ....

I really expect big things out of dude ... man are we loaded with talent on that side of the ball ... it all depends on our trigger man cause KEV CAN ...

Add in a healthy Njoku, a better situation at RG (starter will have been here since training camp), and a legit QB coach, and a vet backup QB

OH HELL YA ...

LETS GOOOOOOOOoooooooooo ... only thing that can hold us back is that darn virus .... KEV CAN .... LETS GOOOOOOOooooooo

I agree ... I think some (including me) underestimated how bad our OT’s were going into last season. GRob simply was not good, and Hubbard was right with him. I think we finally felt the Joe Thomas loss last season ... Conklin and Wills should make us much improved

I expect Baker to have a turnaround year.

If not, we may have to find a way to draft Trevor Lawrence.

We do have Keenum if that counts for anything.

I am looking forward to seeing Baker light it up this year, with our new OL, and Hooper is going to be big for Him, and our Run game is really going to help open things up for him, Excited to watch him shut up all his critics ...

My hope as well Pastor.

First, I don't think this a make or break year. You don't give up on the #1 OAP after 3 seasons. You just don't. You allow the contract to expire, and then make the decision.

I do think Keenum counts for something. That was a darn good signing. We can win with that guy. He is a good example of a under the radar guy who has learned his craft.

No, he won't make the HOF, but a lot of good players don't make the HOF. Brian Sipe, Bernie Kosar just to name a couple of familiar names. Joe Theisman isn't in the HOF. Who wouldn't want that guy as QB??

Just don't all forget his accolades as a rookie - he did things no other rookie did so he has game.

But also don't forget this as he heads into his 3rd year.
4th HC...
3rd O program. This can retard development. We will see how all work in this new system and how it is done virtually because of the stupid Pandemic.

jmho

As much as we all want sports to return and we are looking forward to football.

I really do not know what to expect??

These are abnormal conditions that we have never seen. We have no idea how this going to play out? When a person can be a carrier and have no symptoms for two weeks. One person in a facility could infect a entire team. One person could test positive and cause a team to be put in quarantine.

Then back up to training camp. Teams with new regimes trying to implement new systems are at a severe disadvantage. How we prepare and limitations from the NFLPA have not yet been decided.

I would love to believe that all will be fine and that everything will work out.

But there is no way to be sure at this point.

The Browns have a bunch of new parts that have fit together and be made to run smoothly. This will be a huge challenge for Kevin Stefanski

Heck I think we are desperate for sports! ... I watched my first Nascar race yesterday. Had a wager on it too so that I had something to root for. Nascar !!! omg.

...

I refuse, to watch Golf and Nascar also cage fighting and WWE Whatever, I want real sports Football, Baseball, Basketball even Hockey ... JMHO

Oh No, Not Changes again,
I hope the Browns learn to stick with a plan.

The plan, is the plan, man. Keep the fire on the pan. You can't cook hotcakes with a cold fire.

Know what I mean?

You missed Tom Brady splitting his britches after holing out a 140 yard wedge shot. Must see TV.

I am copying and pasting oober's reply to Diam that was in the LBer thread. I think the Baker talk is better suited to this thread.



I think this is a big year for Baker. I am not saying it is a make-or-break year, but it is certainly a defining year. Hopefully, he plays better than he has. Hopefully, he shows signs of being a complete qb rather than a system qb.

I don't think the team should give up on him if he struggles again this year, but oober brought up a good point. This team is loaded w/talent. This team should win a lot of game if they just get a mediocre performance from the qb. It would be a shame to waste all this talent because of the qb.

Unlike some folks on this board, I don't think Baker has been put in a bad situation. I think he has been surrounded by a ton of talent. It's time for him to step his game up. I won't insult anyone or personally attack anyone who disagrees. I will just agree to disagree.

Hopefully, Baker will play well and quell all of these types of discussions. While I am not fond of his personality, I want the team to win and him playing well would go a long, long way to having that dream realized.

To Rish's response from the LB thread...
Fire up your what-if machine and put yourself in your own shoes at the end of this season where Baker hasn't improved his performance despite very positive coaching, scheme, and supporting personnel changes. Let's make it even more extreme, and say he was benched and the offense was revitalized under Keenum (even if it was temporary).

What would your end-of-season take on Baker be?

There's a lot of things you have to define like "hasn't improved". What does that mean?

Here's a better question I think. Say Baker has an "average year". If you aren't in a position to draft Lawrence, who are you going to replace him with that has the same pedigree and talent? And by pedigree I mean successful college QB at a top program, Heisman winner, number one overall draft pick, sets rookie TD record.

This isn't plug and play. It's time to nurture, teach, train, and develop. Things the Browns never do.

Here is a link to what impact Chubb may have to the offense and why.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2893...e-force-in-2020

Not really. It means he looks similar to last year.

I'll respond in kind.... What do you mean by average? IMO, NFL average would be a significant improvement from last year.

Again, I'll repeat that I am in Mayfield's corner. I think he's got the skills and the attitude to work hard, improve, and make it. It doesn't hurt that he has about as good a supporting cast as you can ask for. I wouldn't hold it against you if you told me this was a pointless conversation, but

It's probably not pointless, but we see things differently. For me, Mayfield would have to really fall on his face this year to even consider moving on from him. A real collapse. Worse than last year.

My reasons are I don't believe there will be anyone better to replace him. And I don't believe we will have given him enough time to develop under stable conditions. I also believe he possesses a tremendous amount of talent that given the right time and situation will blossom.

I was extremely critical of Baker last year. Extremely. But time and cooler heads have changed my perspective. I think moving on from Baker barring a major collapse (I'll define that as worse season than last year) would be a sign of impatience and the instability that has plagued this organization for two plus decades.

That IS the next box on the flowchart. Replace him with _____?
I'm of the same sentiment, we would really need to see Baker regress and show signs that he is simply not "the man" in order to throw in the towel. Barring total collapse, we won't have the fire-power to draft the next great QB. What then? Recycled veteran or 100m QB?

We just weren't engineered to constantly change the construction of this team. This was "build a team with great young talent on cheap contracts" plan. Changing it now is two years too late. With that said, Baker is obviously the most important piece, but there are bigger goals next year... Cohesion, from the top of the organization down, and a march towards "plug and play" on both sides of the ball.

Those things AND Baker stepping up to the plate are the only chance for greatness. Either one comes true and there is a gambler's chance. Neither? A multiyear stretch of wallowing in mediocrity, or worse.

Baker has all the tools and has more than enough talent around him. No excuses. If he stinks next year - we're in a world of hurt. I hope last year was enough to humble him (and others) and everybody adopts the mantra. "WORK".

That's fair.

I am rooting for Baker, and I think he can do it. That said, I would be really disappointed if we looked back and found we wasted years with our current roster on a QB that didn't make it.

I don't think Baker has put his best foot forward and has been his own worst enemy. I think he has a level of stubborness and cockiness that works against him. He has to own that.

But he got drafted into one of the most unstable franchises in all of sports. He is about to start his 3rd year and is on his 4th head coach, 4th offensive coordinator, 3rd QB coach, and 2nd GM. A new system every year, sometimes mid-year.

He does have talent around him, but talent without leadership, stability, and chemistry won't be realized. This is why the three most important positions in the NFL is owner, coach, QB. Having great wide receivers only makes a difference when everything else is in line.

Baker has to own what he can control, but I don't know how anyone can say Baker wasn't put into a bad situation. Unless all of those changes in just two years is no big deal.

It wasn't a bad situation. It was a horror/comedy, can't-make-this-stuff-up situation.

I agree w/your first statement too. I think Baker’s chip on his shoulder is his best friend and worst enemy. He’s pretty arrogant ... maybe even to the point of not putting in the work and being as coach able this past offseason.

Nobody knows for sure, but he’s got the chance to make improvements now

Your 100% correct .... Just like a qb won’t realize his talent if he thinks folks that can help with his mechanics when your footwork stinks and leads to high inaccurate throws are nothing more than broom-sweepers ... a qb’s talent won’t be realized if he can’t become more than a one read QB and learn to read D’s better ... and a qb thinking its going to be easy is definitely a roadblock to a qb realizing there potential ...

I stil don’t understand why u think expecting progress out of Bake is so unreasonable ... makes no sense to me ...

I think you left out the part of the post you responded to that would come closest to what you are talking about.



Just my personal 2 cents - but I find Rish's post pretty damn reasonable compared to someone saying Baker wasn't put into a bad situation .... it boils down to this - Baker can and WAS put in a horrible situation AND he had oodles of talent around him at the skill positions last year. And on top of that - he owns a large slice of his poor play last year regardless of the bad situation.

Backdoor stalking ... nice ... *L* ..

Man ... I thought you were an old dude, not some prepubescent kid. It's a message board. I responded to your post. That was about someone else's post that was about someone else's post ... I referenced all 3 while I replied to you because you were so selective in your 'quote' that didn't include the part that would have actually been relevant to what you wrote. . . . and now responding to what people say on a message board is stalking? . . . hey - cue the 'rent free' tweenager garbage too why not Nice.

I think you are a very reasonable poster. Thus, I will discuss this w/you. It will not upset me in the slightest if we disagree. Perhaps we can have a good exchange of ideas and casual readers can learn from the exchange.

I understand why some folks say they think he was put in a bad situation. They might point to the putrid record of the team before he arrived here. They have certainly brought up the changing of the coaching staff. I get that. It makes sense.

Here is my counter argument. I believe that while the team was terrible before he got here, John Dorsey upgraded the overall talent of the roster by leaps and bounds. Part of that was due to the assets he had available and that discussion is for another time. The bottom line is that the roster was much better when Baker came on board than it was the previous two to three years.

I also think that Baker had some say in these coaching decisions. I don't think he liked either Hue or Haley. I think he did support the hiring of Freddie and was friendly w/Lindley.

The main reason why I don't think he was thrust into a bad situation or a horrific one is that he was given what he wanted and more importantly, was surrounded by superior talent. I think the Browns offensive weapons were tops in the NFL. One might argue KC or NO, and I can see that. But, the Browns were right there. I think the best, but certainly one of the top 3.

He has had OBJ and Landry. The best WR duo in the entire league.

He has had Chubb and Hunt. The best RB combo--by far--in the league.

His OL was ranked second overall by PFF in his rookie year. It fell off significantly last year, but they were still middle of the pack in pass pro last year. Do you realize that Cam Erving was starting a LT for a good part of the year in KC?

I fully agree that coaching was an issue last year. I am not saying he was in a great situation. I said that his situation wasn't bad. I guarantee you that plenty of QBs would have loved to trade spots w/him last year.

Here is something that might amuse you. I get on Baker plenty, but I actually wagered $100 on him winning the MVP last year. I did so because I thought he had talent, but more importantly, I thought his supporting cast was the best in the NFL.

Feel free to debate me. I know you will do so honestly.

I don't think expecting progress is unreasonable. It's the reaction of what we do if the progress isn't there that I think could be unreasonable.

I know you don't want me responding to you and you won't respond back. By now you should know that I do not care about either of those things.

I don't think Baker getting what he wanted is evidence that he was in a situation that "wasn't bad". Actually it could be the opposite - evidence that the situation was bad when the team defers to a cocky, immature 23 year old and allows him to influence hiring decisions. Dorsey should have known better, but he was too busy trying to win a power struggle with Depo. That's about as bad as it gets.



I don't think talent is an issue, and I do think a lot of QBs would want to be in Baker's shoes, but I also believe that if you took an experienced, seasoned QB who has had some success, he probably would have had more success with the talent. I think a QB like Baker would have likely had the same results. Being envious of another's situation doesn't provide proof that the situation "wasn't bad".

I would agree about the talent.

I think coaching is just as important if not more important than talent. I think that is evident going from the first 8 games of 2018 to the 2nd 8 games of 2018 to the entire 2019 season. If talent is the only thing that mattered, we would have been worse in 2018 than in 2019.

A seasoned, experienced QB may have won more games last season. An inexperienced QB in his second year in the NFL would not have prospered any more than Baker did. In other words someone like Darnold, or Rosen, or Allen, or Lamar, or probably even Mahomes would not have faired any better within last year's situation. Maybe a vet like Brady, Ryan, Brees or Rivers gets us to playoffs. Maybe.

There's a reason why the experts say Mahomes went to the perfect situation in KC. There's a reason why the experts say Lamar went to the perfect situation in Baltimore. ... Because it matters.

No arguments about the talent. Our supporting cast (on paper) is up there w/ best in the league. I do think that that positive was somewhat offset by the Freddie factor, but not so much that I feel this point should be argued. The talent surrounding Baker was 'good situation'.

Despite that, I still think the overall situation was bad for Baker's development. You mention the hiring process itself... Baker getting what he wanted in terms of coaching. I think (as another poster also pointed out) that this is evidence of a bad situation (if it is true). I don't think the theory behind Baker being involved in the hiring was actually confirmed... and there's a fine line between "Baker, who do you want as your HC, OC, and QB coach?" and "Hiring team, Baker knows this guy and has worked well with him, let's keep that in mind while we make a decision". If you're saying what actually happened was the first situation, (that Baker had an active role in deciding the next HC), then that's evidence of a bad situation... weak leadership at the very top of the org (which we already know is poor).

Then there's Freddie being hired, and the culture he starts to put in place. I think Williams did as good a job as is possible, in terms of culture, during the limited time he had as HC. Freddie had a good start to work from and completely eroded the discipline of the team. I think that then trickled down to individual discipline. I hate going all-caps but, I AM NOT LETTING BAKER OR OBJ OFF THE HOOK FOR ACTING LIKE DUMMIES (their behavior is their own responsibility), but the environment (which is what we're talking about) around them wasn't conducive to being disciplined.

Lindley sucked as a QB coach. I think we can all agree here and leave it at that. Bad situation.

Offensive scheme... this has been beat to death already, so I'll make it as brief as possible. Freddie had the offense that was working from the year prior, removed most if not all of what worked and put in a lot of new stuff. I'm not saying that Baker should continue to be coddled in terms of limiting the offense to make it easier on him, but he was doing addition his rookie year, and then Freddie bumped him (and really the offense as a whole) straight up to Calculus in year 2. Bad situation.

Lastly, Baker has operated within at least 3 offensive schemes in his 2 years in the league (Haley, Haley/Freddie, Freddie). Maybe there was even a 4th, as our offense was very different from game1 to game16 last year. Baker has worked under 3 different HC's and 2-3 OC's in his 2 years. That's bad situation.

We disagree on some things, but that is okay. I do want to say that I did not say he was in a good situation. I bring that up because you put it in quotation marks. I said I don't think he has been in a bad situation. I think that there are a lot of excuses being made for Baker. I get it, but I just don't agree w/it.

Bottom line, he needs to play better and behave like a responsible adult. He's our qb for at least this year and probably next year. I am still hoping he gets it and is the guy who can finally lead us out of this miserable abyss.

j/c...

Any news on the workouts???

Not since Johnny Manziel and Josh Gordon showed up.

j/c

From reading the thread I think people are actually discussing two totally different things and both sides make a point here.

First, Baker has certainly been given talent and weapons to work with. So from a talent perspective I think he was put in a pretty good situation.

When looking at all of the coaching changes and unrest in the FO, from a stability standpoint he was put in a terrible situation.

From the standpoint of Baker "helping himself" he seems to have dismissed using a private QB coach in both of his off seasons. Even great QB's like Tom Brady have made use of tweaking their abilities in such a way. So those bringing up his arrogance being a negative in such a way I believe have a solid point.

There are certainly issues he could have worked on with a private QB coach during both off seasons. Not only did he refuse to do so, he degraded private QB coaches by calling them broom sweepers.

I haven't heard any outrageous comments from Baker for some time actually. I consider that a positive. I never want a player to lose that competitive edge, however, making such comments isn't about competition, it's about degrading others. I am hoping his recent lack of such type of comments is a sign of things to come.

There's nothing unusual about a young person who has reached great success being loud and brash. Often times a nice slice of humble pie helps rectify that. I hope that's the case here.

As for replacing Baker. That's certainly a premature thing to even be discussing at this point IMO.

But since it has been, I don't think anyone is hoping he fails. We are all hoping to see some improvement from him. But I do feel there are a couple of factors to consider. The first is this FO did not draft Baker. They are not tied to him. Secondly, they paid a high price for a back up in terms of back up contracts. Baker isn't the only talent on this team.

While some see it as if we replace Baker which direction do we go? What would the point be? It could be this FO sees it as look at all of the talent we have on O. They may not wish to waste that roster on a QB who performs quite poorly. At that point they may see an average QB at an average price and upgrade.

I have no idea but I do feel that's food for thought.

Actually I think both 'sides' of that debate recognize both angles - talent to work alongside and coaching/organization.

It boils down to whether you think (or want to claim) because of the high talent level, regardless of having the most change and most dysfunction in 2 short years of any QB, OC changes and Freddie (imo worst HC in the history of the NFL) ... you still want to suggest his situation was not bad.

OR - you can look at the whole and say, despite the high caliber talent he has to play alongside at the skill positions, Baker was in a bad situation because of Hue, Haley, Freddie version 1, Freddie version 2 etc.

Personally I thought the most succinct review was when a poster sighted how important coaching was to success by looking at 2018 pre and post Hue. Same talent. Same roster. Wildly different results. So talent is a factor for sure - but probably not as big a factor as coaching. Maybe look at NE as an example - Belichick has done more with less (notably when he lost Brady and when he had skill players playing both ways covering injuries) than most coaches ever could/would. jmo

I don't really disagree with you but I also feel one must also consider the factor that Baker didn't take advantage of working with a private QB coach during the off season to help himself. I don't feel Freddie version one was a problem at all.

I think one question people haven't honestly asked themselves is could the very simplistic one read bang bang O Freddie version one ran have been sustainable in the NFL. It wasn't that hard to figure out and diagnose. It had to evolve in order to have any long term success. But he certainly had no idea how to create a proper strategy to do that.

Your post is fair and logical. I am not looking to change your mind at all. However, I will say that I am not looking at his situation just from one angle.

I see both the talent and the coaching. I also recognize that the GM tried to support Baker as much as he possibly could. Other posters think that is a bad thing, but I do not. The team invested the first overall pick on Baker. They tried to do everything they could to support him. That isn't a sign of incompetence. Instead, it makes a lot of sense.

While I recognize that coaching was an issue, I think most of Baker's problems were his own. I know enough about the game to be able to see those issues.

As far as replacing him goes.............I am NOT an advocate of that at all. I think the team should throw their full support behind him this year, just like they have the past two years. Give him the keys to the bus and let him drive it. You gotta hope he "gets it" and performs well. I think he should be the undisputed starter all season long. At the end of the year, formulate a brand new evaluation. Jerking him around during the season and/or not fully supporting him would be a mistake, in my opinion.

Agree Baker didn't help himself (and needs to) - and Freddie V1 was no issue, but simply writing "Freddie" doesn't reflect or address the fact there are two sides and V1 was positive ... V2 was horrendous.

Doesn't matter Rish, with the "pedegree" he has, and with the talent around him and with a coach that seems to have his head screwed on right, I'd be shocked if he didn't show up big and play like a winner.. More resembling his rookie season. JMO however.

We certainly agree on almost all points. Maybe even all points but we haven't quite gotten there yet. But our back and forth I feel truly demonstrates that often times those who seem to be in opposition of each other can often times be closer than it appears on the surface when willing to have an honest dialogue.

Where we may or may not disagree is on the need to add to and improve the offense in 2019. My contention is that we couldn't just stick with the status quo from 2018. It was far too basic not to expand on. The one read, bang bang offense was far too simplistic to keep working without opposing D's figuring it out and neutralizing it. So the system of 2018 had to be expanded upon.

Now to clarify on that, I don't think that's what Freddie did. I think he changed the offense, not expanded it. I could be wrong about that but from my perspective he didn't take Baker's strong suits and add to the playbook in ways to take advantage of those skills. That's where it all fell apart.

At the same time, as a QB grows and matures you expect his skill set to do the same. You should be able to add new wrinkles and your QB to be able to pick up on them as time goes by.

In this case, Freddie wasn't adding wrinkles and expecting Baker to pick up on them. Rather he made wholesale changes and expected Baker to adapt everything to fit those changes. From my perspective Freddie tried to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Hmmmm.

I would rather he wait to show us rather than talk about it.

Yeah, he should have just no-showed on a scheduled press conference he had to do.

What does his quote mean?

Yep. I don't know how much I agree with all the success in 2018 being based on a one read option/scheme. I think we saw on Baker sometimes made progressive reads - I think we saw Baker sometimes move a safety with his eyes ... But even if it was a one read scheme, or a half field scheme (that's more of the definition I would use) then it was something we didn't see teams really adapt to and shut down in 2018 ... and I believe defenses had PLENTY of time to adapt and shut down Baker in 2018 is it was truly a dumb-ed down scheme like some have tried to imply. Why we moved away from it - no clue - I'm a fan of doing something over and over and making someone stop you doing what you do well... and if they do stop you, you have something that looks similar personnel wise, but it's designed to burn the D if they over commit to stopping what was plan A. Where as we did the wholesale change 'just because'...

I am looking forward to seeing BM and how he performs under KS ... I see he's had a presser and talking about him enjoying being coached by KS and also how his footwork change is going well. Bodes well and indicates, contrary to what some have suggested or feared, that Baker won't accept coaching.

Interesting quote

Baker I believe is still a good QB.
But you when you have Landry and OBJ.
That's 2 WRs with strong egos he had to
Appease with targets.
Lets not forget BM broke Mannings record
Without OBJ.
Think about that.

It means none of them are getting any younger. Their windows is NOW and perhaps the next two to three years, tops. After that, those guys will be falling away and we'll be rolling up new WRs... so, if OBJ & Landry want to be part of a ring here, their time is right NOW.

There = Their

Not a big fan of that quote .... hope its more a metaphor than his mind set about forcing the ball to the overpaid one and OBJ cause I like how mature the rest of what he said sounded ...

Seems like he listened to a broom sweeper ...

j/c:

I actually like the most of the comments Baker made. Hopefully, he has his stuff together this year.

Another poster said "Hmmmmmmmm."

Why is it interesting?

I just read it as things don't last long in the NFL. Jarvis has already been with the Browns for the NFL equivalent of a lifetime. Key players are coming up to the end of their rookie contracts and we have some tough decisions to make.

I think it's totally fair to point out that there was enough talent on the team that Baker had an opportunity to achieve more than he did. Some of those were opportunities he passed up on before the season started. I'd even cede the idea that Freddie's scheme may not have played as big a role in Baker's lack of improvement than what others, or even I may have originally believed.

I think where Freddie failed the most, and what had a bigger impact on Baker was that he didn't (at least it appears) hold Baker to any real degree of accountability. I view that in the context of wondering just what we reasonably could have expected from him in terms of not only maturity but also knowing what it means to be a professional. Some people intuitively know what it means to be a professional but I think you'd agree that Baker wasn't someone anyone would accuse of being professional.

Just my opinion, but if Baker had been saddled with real accountability, and a concerted effort had been made to develop him as a 'professional', everything else would have fallen in to place (off season workouts, less media spats, etc).




If you just say "the GM tried to support Baker as much as he could" I don't think anyone would disagree that it is bad thing. But that GM or whomever else is supporting Baker HAS to be able to say "Yes Baker, I know you want this, but it is not what you need and will not help you get to where you need to be. No"

There is a line between support and enabling. I think perhaps Dorsey provided a mix of the two.

Good post.

I do want to be clear about something. I do think that Freddie did a terrible job last year. I am not absolving him and blaming Baker for everything. That would be dumb.

Freddie failed as a HC. I think he probably hurt Baker. I am just saying that I don't think Baker's situation was as bad as many are making it out to be.

Folks can disagree w/that and that's cool. I just wanted to reply to you to make sure I am not being misunderstood. I do put part of Baker's ineptitude on the coaching. Just not as much as some others.

A lot has been made of coaching on this thread and in others. Yet, a guy like McCarthey was a Super Bowl winner and a perennial contender w/Rodgers. When Rodgers got hurt, GB was awful. A guy like Caldwell won big w/P. Manning and then sucked w/out him. Shanny was something like 1 and 10 w/out Jimmy G and then 5 and 0 w/him. The next year, the 49ers won 3 or 4 games w/out Jimmy G. They were in the Super Bowl the following year w/him. Rivera was in the SB w/Cam. Cam gets hurt and Rivera is fired because the team stinks. Houston sucked w/out Watson and we got the 4th overall pick because of his injury. Watson comes back and they have made the playoffs ever since. I could go on and on and on.

Coaching matters, but I think some folks are blowing smoke up people's behinds w/how much of an affect coaching influenced guys like Baker and Mahommes.

Good stuff here.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/bak...nique-offseason

He said 9 are participating....Including Case Keenum and of course the before mentioned Hooper. We know OBJ and Landry are not there due to surgery rehab. So pretty much everyone else.

Baker is a smart guy and has good Football IQ he will be fine!

j/c

Baker was drafted into a train wreck of a team and organization. The team had won ONE game in the previous two seasons and fired GMs/Exec VPs before any culture - other than dysfunction - could take hold. We were the t-shirt, poster-child of ruined QBs.

His first head coach decreed that Baker would not take any reps with the first team. None.

He would enter his first NFL game after an injury to the "starter" where/when he took his first-ever snap from his Center and won the game. It was ridiculously and painfully obvious that he was already significantly better than was the "starter". 1st team reps or not.

He had Jarvis Landry and...well..Jarvis Landry as his weapon. That is until the new GM traded the "starting" RB so he could add Nick Chubb to Jarvis Landry...so those were his weaponS.


In that same first season his head coach would be fired as was the Offensive coordinator. The dysfunction was as ridiculous as the decision for him to not get any 1st team reps. He went on to break Peyton Manning's rookie TD record.

That is the situation he was brought-into. Terrible coaching of a bad team with limited weapons and no 1st team work up to being inserted into a game. You couldn't make up a worse situation for a rookie QB if you tried.

---------------------------------------------------------

Year 2 would HAVE to better, right? Nope. Prior-year genius OC becomes head coach and completely loses his mind/way. All-Pro RG is traded and a folding chair is put in his place...exposing the folding chair to his right.

Weapons are brought in though...we were told that by the national talking heads. Not really. OBJ was hurt all year and limited in practice and games. Hunt wouldn't play until week 11. WR3 goes back on the bowl and his prior-year security blanket goes into the doghouse. He had no real TE to speak of on the team. (Imagine Lamar Jackson and Carson Wentz with our 2019 TEs.) But...but...but...we added all those weapons...not.

At the end of the season, the head coach AND GM are both canned...again.

Again...if you sat around and dream t up the worst scenario you could think of to put a rookie QB in...you couldn't top the above several paragraphs.

That ^ is what Baker Mayfield was brought into.

Pre-season of Baker's year #3 and we look to have gotten our act together...favored HC and GM...should have 2 healthy, stud WRs...and RBs...and good TEs...and actual NFL OTs...and COVID 19. If Baker was initially "brought into" the team and org that is noted here, I would agree that he was brought into a good situation. But that simply isn't the case.

Just my $.02

I don't disagree with a thing you stated.

However, I think the whole Baker equation has been beat to death. Everyone has a opinion and that is all fine and good.

Not trying to change anyone's mind.

I like what Baker just said. Or, put more precisely what conclusion he has reached.

The time for talk is over. Go to work. All that counts is winning.

I am fine with the team we have. If we can improve by addition before the season; then do it.

Although we have not seen a thing. I like what the offense is suppose to look like. We could have the best run game in our division. I love TE use. You need the right players but TE's can create mismatches. I like a lead blocking fullback. It gives the runners more options.

But what I like the most is play action. Baker's numbers are way better in play action. It makes perfect sense why.

The investment in Conklin and Wills is a huge upgrade and should serve both the run and pass game production.

So conceptually I am all in.

It is a damn shame we are not under normal conditions. What effect that this condition will have remains to be seen.

Exactly.

Just win.

Don't need to hear another single interview. Don't care to know anything more about our players or coaches. Just win. That's it. Period. Just win.

Patrick Mahomes is considered the best qb in the league right now. Former players are saying that he might go down as the greatest qb of all-time. He sat his first year. He only started the last game of the year. Did Andy Reid put him in a terrible situation by doing so?

People say that Hue ruined Kizer by playing him too early. They then turn around and complain that Baker didn't get first team reps. That doesn't read a little contradictory to you?

Again, I think people are making too many excuses for Baker's poor play. Yes, there were factors that didn't help him, but good qbs overcome those things. He was the first overall pick in the draft. I don't think everything should even have to come close to being perfect for him to be good. Perhaps we should expect him to make others better?

I'm not trying to change your mind, but I think my argument is valid.

It's possible Baker is not a good QB for the reasons you listed. But you're comparing him to QB who is already on a HOF track. Baker is likely not a HOFer. I do think Baker has an issue raising his level of play and those around him. He's not clutch. Cream rises to the top under adverse conditions. Baker sinks under adverse conditions.

But I don't think that means he's not good enough to win with under the right situation. If you want Baker to bulldoze his way through less than ideal conditions - which it seems like you do - then you are probably going to be disappointed. But if you change you perspective to "good enough to win with under the right circumstances", he might meet those expectations.

And I still go back to the replacement factor. Even if Baker is not a HOF QB, that doesn't mean he's easily replaceable either. He's got talent. The talent he has is not easily replaceable. It's just not generational talent.

The only way Baker probably becomes a generational talent is if he cerebrally turns into Manning or Brady. I just don't think that's in his DNA.

There is a grand canyon-sized difference between "everything should even have to come close to being perfect for him to be good" and the cluster that he was brought into.

The lack of 1st team reps is not mentioned in defense of Baker in any way...but it shines a light on the incompetence of his first head coach in propping up Tyrod Taylor while not even letting Baker compete for the job...a job he demonstrated in one evening that should have been his all along...let alone something he should have been allowed to compete-for. The locker room had to see in camp what we saw in Baker's first game.

Just to be clear. The point in mentioning a lack of 1st team reps is a critical comment of Hue's ability (or lack thereof) to see what he has in a QB and how to develop that QB.

To this comment :

"Yes, there were factors that didn't help him, but good qbs overcome those things. He was the first overall pick in the draft. I don't think everything should even have to come close to being perfect for him to be good. Perhaps we should expect him to make others better?"

Baker did "overcome those things"...he came into the game cold...with no first team reps...and led his team to it's first win in months. He QB'd his team to it's 2nd win in the past 35 games. THEN went on to break the rookie TD passing record.

I'd say that he did exactly what you are saying he should.

Not sure I get the debate about 1st team reps, starting and not starting. . . . is anyone going to suggest that Mahomes - while not starting for most of the year - took no reps with the 1st team until he was going to start? Also not sure where Kizer becomes relevant. And not sure how it relates to Baker and whether the organization was a mess or not.

The organization was a cluster when Baker was drafted. That is a bad situation for any rookie QB. Last year Dorsey was a postive influence on the talent the team acquired but the HC and play calling was Freddie who was a disaster. That would be a bad situation for any QB in his second year. I smell more manufactured and deliberate agitation on this subject because we are splitting hairs at this point on verbiage and definitions.

To me it's simple:

1. From an organizational stand point - Baker has been involved in a big fat mess since he got here. Even with Dorsey on board, we still had Freddie as a bigger influencer on the team, the play calling and Baker on game days ... Hoping KS and Berry are the answer.
2. From a talent perspective at the skill positions - Baker was in a fortunate situation last year, but because of Freddie any benefit to the talent was diluted at best, wasted at worst.
3. Baker played badly - it was accentuated by Freddie - but Baker played badly all by himself and I believe he would have played and executed poorly under the very best coaching last year. He was off - needs to improve, period. Doesn't mean Baker was in a good situation and messed up - it means Baker was in a bad situation and would have still struggled in a good situation.

jmo

Comparing Andy Reid and the Chiefs to the Browns?

IMO if Mayfield would have been drafted by the Chiefs the wins and loses would be similar. Speculation? Sure.

Kizer? Not applicable.

The song by Hue was what? Baker will not start. He will sit and learn.

Coaching matters. However, it takes two to win. You need good coaching and good qb play. No mystery there.

I have said there are things about Baker that concern me. Number one being when there were chances to win late in games; he failed.

However, he is young player like Darnold. Who by the way, I believe will be a good quarterback.

Experience is a requirement. You don't go to bad teams and elevate their play when you are at the beginning of a career. Did Ben elevate play when he started at Pittsburgh?
They were a lot better than when Baker started here.

Mahomes as archives will verify. I wanted to draft. Went to a perfect situation. Great coach, established team, veteran quarterback starter.

So we begin a new season with a virus to contend with. Virtual teaching etc.
New head coach, GM and entire staff. Trying to implement new schemes. Oh the joy.

In the meantime the Ravens, and Steelers just need to tune up.

Yet this is it for Mayfield deliver or else.

We have talent. I expect improvement. I expect Mayfield to be a better quarterback.

I don't really understand where you're going with the Mahomes-Kizer-Baker comparison.

Mahomes was a 1st rounder going to a team with an established starter. He sat because he was raw AND Smith was playing pretty darn good.

Kizer was a 2nd rounder (?) that was pretty consistently thought of as a guy that absolutely HAD to sit and develop.

Baker was a #1 pick that, apparently, was going to sit but then didn't. He was thrust into regular season games with little to 0 reps with the guys he was playing with.


Sorry. How you can compare the three, much less draw a conclusion, is beyond me.
So no, I don't think it's contradictory.

I have no idea exactly what Vers meant but I can tell you the way I took it.

I don't really think the names of the teams nor the names of the QB's matter. I think it's more about the philosophy. There are two main thought processes when it comes to rookie QB's. Throw them into the fire right away or let them sit and learn first. Both plans have worked and both plans have failed. I'm certain that you have a point about the situations and the players as to where there would be variables involved in such decisions.

But I think the bigger overall point here is that often times fans like to have their cake and eat it too. On the one hand, let's use the Kaiser situation since it has already been mentioned, people complained that he should have sat and learned. Then when it came to Baker they complained he didn't get first team reps.

Now I realize that these are two different QB's. But considering the system Baker was coming from in college, I'm not sure how from a fans perspective anyone should have actually expected he was ready to command and run an NFL offense any quicker than the coaching staff did.

Should they have known better? Since they are the professionals working with him on a daily basis and were hired to evaluate such things, I would say yes.

But from a fans perspective all of the back and forth is from a hindsight perspective. On one hand Kiser was ruined by being thrown into the fire and Baker was stagnated by not getting first team reps. It's like they want to have it both ways.

To that end I see the point.

Excellent post Willie!

I think Pit did a good job of explaining my thought process. I'll try again just because I think you are a good dude.

Mahomes sat for a year and flourished ever since then. Yet, people rip Hue for sitting Baker for part of the season. How is that not clear?

Regarding Kizer, the same folks who are ripping Hue for not playing Baker right away are the same folks who blamed Hue for ruining Kizer because he played him right away. How is that not clear?

I have no problem w/you disagreeing w/me, but I am not being illogical. I am not an illogical person in anything I do.

I think this "terrible situation" is being overblown because they don't have much else to lean on. That's fine. All opinions are welcomed. On the other hand, I have the right to express my opinions, as well. And I sure as hell have a lot more experience in the game than those belittling my opinions.

Reading how some of you guys have laid everything out, I can't help but comparing the last 20 years of the Browns to the whole Game of Thrones saga. Sure with the Browns there's less sex, nudity, and blood BUT how often does it look like someone is geared up to take the Iron Throne only to be unceremoniously removed?

If George R.R. Martin is a Browns fan that would explain why he can't seem to find the closure he needs to end the series.

My brain feels you should only throw a QB in right away if they have a strong supporting cast to bail them out when they make mistakes. OR if there is no choice.

My heart wants to see them play right away. That hasnt worked too well for us.

I know this keeps getting lost in translation, but I have said repeatedly that I think Baker should be the unquestioned starter this year and receive full support from the Brown's organization.

I still have hopes that he can be the guy.

My argument is that certain folks are making way too many excuses for his play. One of the guys used to get on me about Cody Kessler and how unfair I was regarding him. He actually said that Cody was better than Wentz. Another guy, used to rip me repeatedly for saying that it was hard for me to trust Josh Gordon. Their arguments are always the same. The subjects just change.

Think about our PM and the three things you brought up and then think about how those guys "debate."

Gotta chime in here. A lot of this simply isn't true.

Comparing Mayfield to Kizer? Nowhere near the same in their development when they began their NFL careers.

Kizer was nowhere near ready to take the field when Hue named him the starter. Baker would have been fine to start day 1. He was one of the few ready to start coming out of college.

I don't know that Kizer was "ruined" because he started. I never thought he was that great to begin with. He received first team reps and he still sucked. Baker didn't receive ANY first team reps.

Huge difference being forced into action when not ready and being ready and not receiving any first team reps.

Hue mismanaged BOTH QBs!

The only ones who thought Baker wasn't ready were the ones who didn't like him and those who had a bad taste in their mouth from Johnny and the Kizer stuff. I remember reading crazy statements like Baker should sit 3 years. I'm sorry folks, but Baker was READY! Kizer was nowhere near ready.

Based on how Baker stepped in after a lack of 1st team reps - hard to argue with you that he was ready. My issue is that somehow the argument changed from how poorly Baker was groomed prior to starting - eg on record as having zero first team reps - and whether or not he or Kizer or Mahomes did or didn't start and were successful. I was a Baker fan and wanted him #1 - I also wanted him to sit behind Tyrod thinking Tyrod was going to be the better QB at that stage. I had zero problem with the *plan* - the problem was [1] you still give your future QB in the wings first team reps even if the veteran QB is starting and better ... [2] Tyrod was not playing well - and clearly when Baker was forced to start thru injury, not only was he ill prepared due to lack of 1st team reps ... he was also clearly miles ahead of Tyrod in ability.

All ancient history. All just some people trying to frame a combative argument.

100% do not agree with this. No surprise to many I'm sure. I'd actually argue the opposite and that it's part of the reason why he was drafted #1 overall.

And I'm not sure what inspired "Baker likely isn't a hall of Famer." I would be ok with it's too early to tell. But to rule him out? Nah. He's likely going to be a great QB for years.

Question/comment ... as just mentioned, I was expecting Baker to sit behind Tyrod, but I was also expecting Baker to get some 1st team reps. I think that's quite common if you are developing a highly valued draft pick to be the future QB of the team ... I don't see those being mutually exclusive. Am I missing something? Do you see it differently than that?

I agree with you about Tyrod.

I think he can be capable and was excited we brought him aboard. I would have been fine starting Tyrod, but he wasn't the best option to win games and he was the one on the field.

Baker lead the Browns to their first victory in 19 games. It was his ability and his intangibles that gave us a glimmer of playoff hope. He rose above the negatives and did all the things that is being accused of a good QB without being given any credit for being a good QB.

I don't think last year was a "necessary" humble for Baker. I do think he needs to relax and let the game come to him rather than force things to happen. We need him to be Baker and the QB who can lead us like he did in college. I think he's simply trying too hard. The right coach (Stefanski?) can help immensely.

Coaching is being underrated within this thread.

Anyone want to go back and look and see how many times coaching has been brought up in this thread?

I believe the thing that is being argued is that there's a double standard when people say Kizer shouldn't have started while complaining Baker didn't get any first team reps.

Their situations were completely different. Kizer wasn't ready and was forced into action while Baker may have been the most ready of all the quarterbacks in the draft.

I can sure you there is no double standard. Kizer wasn't ready. Baker was. Their level of readiness were on the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Did Oklahoma or ND run more of a pro-style offense?

Btw..........the word is "ensure." Not "sure."

Guilty.

Anybody seen my thread? It was here a while ago.

But since we are here, just had a curiosity thought go off in my head. I like your spectrum concept you gave.

Where would Manziel fit on there? Not baiting you or anybody, but I really had reservations about BM, and I really disliked Kizer. So work JFF in there if you would. He was a mixed bag at best. I am assuming hindsight and it's all ok.

???

Are you really trying to say Kizer was more ready than Baker? Ouch.

Correct. It is ensure and not sure. No need to correct an obvious typo, but thanks dude.

Also, it's "Mahomes." Not "Mahommes."

I'm saying that Baker played in an offense that was less NFL like than Kizer did. I am NOT saying that Baker is worse than Kizer.

So again, which offense was more NFL like between ND and Oklahoma? It's not a hard question.

Bard:

Really?

Just clicking btw

Sorry, we are going to disagree here. You know this is my biggest criticism of Baker. I just don't see the clutch gene. The "put the team on my back and make a play regardless of outside circumstances" gene. I just don't see it. If you believe in the psychology of things, we've all known Michael Jordans who refuse to lose and always make big buckets in those pickup basketball games, regardless of how tight the game is. And we've all known the guys that play great when things are going great but really tighten up when it's crunch time. That's the way I see Baker. Maybe I'm wrong. But I go back to the UGA playoff game to multiple instances in his short NFL career. Baker plays great when his confidence is high and things are clicking. And he really plays great when he's in front. He can pile it on with the best of them. But I don't see a calm, cool, win the game at all costs guy on the field. I see a guy who tightens up and doesn't make the big play.



That might have been harsh. But my bigger point was even if he isn't headed to the HOF, he's good enough to win with and continue to develop and stick with. That's been my point throughout this thread.

As a Browns fan nothing would thrill me more than Baker turning into the next Drew Brees, delivering some championships, and having a bust in Canton some day. Man, I hope that's what happens. But I'm just trying to be objective at this point in time. I do think we should stick with him barring an absolute collapse this year. I think there is a ton of talent there and a ton to work with. I think some signature wins would go a long way to him building some confidence and maybe developing that clutch gene. I also think he needs to work at the game much harder from the cerebral side then the physical side. But I am in his corner and not giving up on him even if he has an average to below average year this year. It will be the popular thing to do, but I don't think it would be wise.

I loved Johnny.

He had all the tools you'd want in a quarterback. Except one.

Johnny had 10x the ability of Hoyer and I argued for his playing time.

I'm not sure Johnny could ever be ready for the NFL.

I still love Johnny.

You're referring to the Rose Bowl, I assume.

I would argue the opposite of the same game. Oklahoma shot out to a sizable lead. I remember the Georgia defense shutting down the Oklahoma offense in the second half and actually took the lead at one point. I believe it was a Baker interception that helped Georgia take the lead. Baker then put the team on his back and he lead them to a game tying touchdown when it looked like all was lost and Oklahoma could do nothing.

Oklahoma had the lead. Georgia dominated the second half. But Mayfield and his team fought back. I was sad to see them lose, but it was this game that left no doubt in my mind that Baker was the pick. Georgia's defense was awesome and didn't give up many points that year in any game. The Baker-led Sooners put up 40-something.

I don't want to hijack the thread...well I guess I'm too late for that.

I wanted nothing to do with JFF. It was his sophomore season at A&M, an away game. On a broken play in the red zone, he pulled it down and ran for a TD. The crowd was booing and jeering him, so he did his famous money fingers, drawing a flag. As he came off the field, Coach Sumlin came onto the field to coach him about it, and Johnny walked right past him, didn't even look at him. I knew, in that moment, that I wanted nothing to do with JFF.

Precisely. Johnny didn't want to learn how to play football until it was too late.


A lot of the stuff you read about who people think Baker is, Johnny was.

ND clearly ...

Thats one part of the equation ... u also have to consider the following when deciding who was more NFL ready:

Kizer spent 3 year in college ... Bake 5 maybe even 6 ..
Kizer started just shy of two years .. Bake started 3+
Kizer STUNK and was benched his last year ... Bake was a heisman finalist and may have won it ... i think its a bs award and don’t follow it ...
age

Kizer should not have come out .. he was no where’s ready ... Bake was well done ... *L* ...

So your right based on offensive style Kizer had more experience ... factor in everything else and Bake in a landslide was way more ready ...

I have ZERO PROBLEMS with how Hue handled Bake ... Kizer may have been his best option but that boy was no where’s near ready bro ...

I consider myself a good writer. I've been published and even made money from writing. However, I must be losing my communication skills.

I am not trying to say that Kizer was better or as good as Baker. I said that folks are saying one guy was hurt because he started as a rookie and another guy was hurt because he didn't start from day one. Makes no sense. They also are ignoring that Mahomes sat his first year and his career wasn't ruined. I just think some people are making as many excuses as they can for Baker.

Your having a different discussion than i thought u were ... i hardly read device for many reasons and when u start down rabbit holes with him or any of the other members of yours posse i don’t read most of your replies to them ...

I had no clue the context of your question ... i just answered it from my perspective not the flow of the thread ...

It has zero to do with your communication skills ,,,

And every about situation is different ... i have zero probs with how Hue handled Bake ...

j/c

It appears that more clarity is needed surrounding my comment about Baker not getting any 1st team reps his rookie year.

My statement above is one of many that I posted to remind us just had bad was the situation that Baker was brought into. Epic-ally bad.

My issue with him not getting any 1st team reps is not to state whether it was good or bad for Baker OR to compare him to any other QB...EXCEPT for Tyrod Taylor and in the context of the terrible situation he was brought into. Meaning the clown HC who was driving the bus who somehow didn't see the obvious difference between Baker v Tyrod. It was and is rather astounding. Not so much that Tyrod was handed the starting job before TC, but that the clown wouldn't even give Baker a chance to compete. What we saw in the Jets game HAD to have been seen by the players in practice. The difference in their abilities was more-than obvious.

Lastly, to those who claim that we should expect Baker to be able to overcome obstacles in his way...what would you call his 1st game experience? Did he not (right-then-and-there) demonstrate his ability to overcome? How about his record-breaking season that followed his 1st game? His entire first year was "less than perfecct"...and year two actually got worse.

My confusion stems from me not thinking the Kizer and Baker situations are comparable... so the part about "Hue did one thing and people gave him grief and then did the other and people still gave him grief" doesn't really ring true for me.
If Baker took 1st team reps as part of being thrown into the fire, then I can clearly see your argument. That's a standard "thrown in to the fire" situation. But he was thrown into the fire after not getting 1st-team reps prior to him taking his first NFL snaps. That's a whole extra layer of difficulty (on top of just being a rookie QB coming from a non-pro O).
Kizer, despite coming from a college that run a pro-style O, was well-known that he wasn't ready, and needed to sit and learn. The subsequent season confirmed that.
Because of that, I think people can "have it both ways". Both were the wrong decision.

The fact some people aren't realizing the difference between Kizer's situation, and Mahomes situation, and Mayfield's situation is really mind boggling.

You don't "read me" because you don't like objective opinions. If they don't match your opinions, you tend to ridicule folks. Much like your friend over there.

Some people just can't handle the truth.

I do.


Baker was named #2 fairly early as I recall.

I think #2 has to have some reps with the 1's, you know, just in case he has to go in to the game if #1 is hurt.


Makes sense to me.

Has ANYONE said Baker was hurt because he didn't start week 1?

I have not seen that - maybe I missed it or maybe this is another one of those arguments against something nobody ever said?

I've said and I have seen others say that not giving Baker ANY first team reps was a bad move, and as it turned out when he was thrust into the game due to injury it made it a "bad situation" ... arguing that it was anything but poor prep/situation seems unreasonable.

My recollection was that Baker received very little to 0 reps with the 1's. Tyrod was also new to the team/system, and had to get up and running. This is based on my memory, which has a spotty track record, so feel free to correct me if needed.

I see you are back to names and have decided to forego how the philosophy of playing rookie QB's differs. I guess Baker is better than Mahomes too and he sat for 15 games....

Never mind. I may as well talk to a wall.

There's nothing "objective" about most of your opinions. I mean if we're talking about truth here.

I agree with that part ... Hue would have been smart to wait til we closed off practices to the press because of the sideshow it would have created ... but there was no reason Bake should not have gotten some reps with the 1’s ... that part was dumb ...

I was talking about naming TT the starter for the year ... i always would rather have a rook sit a year ... to me thats the way to go ... i think Cinci made a mistake getting rid of dalton ... i think they should have let him start this year and let Joe sit a year ... thats just my preference ... either way can work as long as u don’t ruin him ... Rosen may very well stink but he has not had a chance yet ... he’s played behind brutal OL’s w/o much talent around him ...

I've said Hue mismanaged both Kizer and Mayfield. Mayfield wasn't "hurt" by the mismanagement.

Kizer was no where near ready to take the field. He was awful in the preseason. Kizer wasn't the best QB on the team.

Mahomes was not ready to take the field. He sat for a year behind Alex Smith. At the time Mahomes wasn't the best QB on the team.

Mayfield was ready to start if needed. The coach chose otherwise. Mayfield was the best QB on the team.

Kizer needed to sit.
Mahomes needed to sit.
Baker didn't need to sit.

This is only being talked about because there are some people who don't believe in Baker. That's fine. No problem there.

Calling people out for complaining Kizer played and Baker didn't is disingenuous and a lack of understanding the situations. That was my beef.

I cleared the air, but you'll get the same fellas trying to ridicule everyone else because the difference of opinions.

Btw, I don't think it's an opinion that Baker and Kizer were in different situations. I would consider that fact.

Moving on.

Sitting behind Alex Smith (5 years in KC system with success) vs sitting behind Tyrod Taylor (1st year in CLE) is entirely different, in my opinion.

It is actually assure, not ensure or sure. Just saying...

I thought it was insure.

Negative, ghost rider.

Are you sure?

I can assure you that I am sure.

Okay. We are just going to have to disagree. But, you made new friends. Well done.

But to ensure the proper message, I'm sure that assure is right.

For sure.

That's what it's all about!

Don't forget to drink your Ensure®, and pay your insurance.

This whole - hole - thread reminded me I need to pay my insurance, ensurance, assurance bill.

There's a song about that:

I don't disagree. Let Dalton start a few games, then ease Burrow in....kinf of lie Bernie and Gary Danielson.


Gary has gone on to have a great career with CBS announcing the SEC game of the week.

Dalton is with the Cowboys

Yeah but still

Outstanding guys! Looks like I'm too late to the party though...lol

j/c:

This video actually makes me feel better about Baker and the Browns moving forward.

There was another video from someone named Tierney or something like that and Tiki Barber that was criticizing the new Baker. I am not going to post it because it was pure BS. I actually like what I am hearing from Baker. I think his game will improve if he matures and acts like an adult. I totally disagree w/the take that Baker being quiet will hurt his game.

Last year at this time, I tried to warn folks that I wasn't happy w/how Baker was handling the off-season. One poster sarcastically said: "the season is doomed" and the thread went off the rails. We saw how that worked out. This year, I am liking what I am hearing and seeing regarding Baker. He might have a huge year.

I'm still not sure if he can go through his progressions fast enough, but I think they are trying to correct some of his mechanical issues and will design the offense to fit his game. Not sure if it is sustainable, but it's a start. More importantly, his attitude seems much better.

I'm telling you guys this now.............if Baker plays well this year, the Browns will be a playoff team.

Yes, I know. I was making a reply to Vers saying Cincy should have kept him. It isn't that hard, is it? Read the quote, then the context of the reply isn't that hard to understand.

So now who looks like the simpleton?

Huh?

What do you mean?

My bad....I quoted a comment by Diam...

Even if Baker plays well, I still don't like the defense. We are a Garrett injury away from being the 32nd ranked D.

I don't know if we are that low, but no doubt the D is the red headed stepchild at this point.

I get this year. We were a O-lineman or two away from finishing the O, so we did that in FA and the draft. The new coach wanted some tight ends, so we did that. We have the receivers and backs, and probably a QB who is at least good enough.

On D, the line might be good enough. We added a FA tackle and drafted a slasher type tackle. Linebacker is the big question mark. The backfield is young. We will see. Hopefully Hospital Ward stays healthy, Greedy make a 2nd year jump, and Delpit shows some rookie flash and not a lot of rookie flush.
The positive with rookie safeties is it is usually a fairly easy transition compared to other positions. Delpit may not be ready to make the backfield calls, but somebody else can do that this year. I forget who the other safety is at this moment.

btw to add on your $.02 TEs are a young QBs safety blanket...said by many about young QBs and Baker did well with Njoku but lost him early in year 2 and there wasn't much after that as we had no back up....late in the year the best was a rookie UDFA from Princeton??? Why one of our first big moves in FA went after the best available....great move btw by Berry!

Baker sinks under adverse conditions.


So 2018 was a figment of my imagination I guess.
Just the best rookie production EVER (in the air). An amazing 20TD and -0- Int production in the redzone if I recollect correctly....OH sorry it was just a dream and those things just never happened. You guys amaze me...smh

No offense but I don't see it that way.


The DL has added guys that should really help keeping all of them fresh. Clayborn is one of the highest ranked DL men on applying pressure. Richardson is a solid player. Larry O is still growing.

Vernon when healthy is a solid player.

There are good number of guys in the defensive backfield that are early draft picks and well ranked.

The linebackers are a concern but some of there inexperience can be scheme covered.

Are they they a top ten defense? No.

32nd ? No. Garrett is on the team. So I don't think the speculation is relevant.

They will most likely end up in the middle of the pack when it is all over.

And I honestly believe there will be players still added.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of shootouts. We potentially could have one of the most potent offenses in the NFL this season.

See - this is where so many of the last 2 decades cautions me - while I might believe we have a solid opportunity to be good, even go to the playoffs if key players stay healthy and things go as planned. There are too many variables and changes and new organizational factors to have confidence in a statement like that !! I feel positive - I am just not ready to say we are going to be that good until I see some games on Sundays.

Add to that - I think KS will be a better game manager than Freddie ever was, even with some explosive plays being made, I think the Offense will still have it's foundation in the run game and the short/medium play action passing game ... that will set up the 'big' plays to TE's on seam routes for 20-30 yards, or to isolate OBJ and Landry on deep balls one on one with a DB.

I think the D will be okay ... I am concerned by the LB core and the lack of proven talent. Wilson showed flashes but we are relying on him taking a big step forward. Tiki didn't show much at all. It's more probable the other additions will be average or below average than it is that they will be 'good' ... but the rest of the D is really set up nicely. I like the young CB tandem - I love Delphit and I like the safety additions. I don't think we are an injury to Garret away from a last placed D. . . . But I don't think we need a top 5 D to win games either. I believe the way the team is built a good O and a middle of the pack D will win enough games.

You took a simple comment way too personally.

If we run the ball as much as I think we will, we can eat up a lot of clock and help keep our defense off the field. I don't think we will want to get involved in a lot of shootouts.

I think we are going to run the ball less than some people think we are.

Maybe ... even run heavy teams still pass a lot. But I am still expecting us to be in the top 5-6 teams for total rush attempts come the end of the season.

I too think we will be in the top 5 for rushing yardage. Maybe not attempts. I really have no preconceived notions one way or the other.

If I had to guess I would expect it to be very balanced. My reason for that belief is very simple. Many claim and we all hope that Stefanski is a smart guy and he will use the talent on this team to its best potential.

As such, we have two great WR's and invested in a very good pass catching TE. Whether one considers Njoku a very good TE or not, he certainly is capable of being a threat as a pass catcher.

IMO this gives Stefanski a much better talent level in catching the football here than he had in Minnesota. And while people point out that the upgrades on the OL gives us a better run game, it also presents us with better pass protection.

Given those things it seems obvious to me that with such talent at both the run game and passing game Stefanski will use the talent level at both of those options pretty equally. While the vision of a strong running game seems to light up the imagination of many fans, I certainly feel we will have that. As such, I think that will serve us well.

But to think the passing game is not at least as talented, if not more so, I don't feel is giving Stefanski credit for using the talent at his disposal properly.

I believe that what I saw in Minnesota was a team making the most of their talent. Not a team that was depending on a run heavy offense due to a prerequisite.

On paper it looks good. I think we have a coach who can make it happen

Lets hope we get a full 16 game season so we can find out

I agree with that. Stefanski seems able to get solid games out of his players. I also believe he can get it done here and TE will be vital to us.

I am not trying to be a homer for the man as a pre season automatic response. But I am also trying very hard not to dumb him down or steal any props by running him through a Freddy filter comparison, as in Stefanski's team is Freddy and his issues.

New day. Winning cures quite a lot of things. Hope we have the proof in our huddle.

Does anyone know Stefanski's record as a HC?

I think it is 0 and 0.

I will not make any predictions. Instead, I will wait and see how he does before evaluating how good or bad he is. That's the same thing I did w/Freddie last year.

I don't think anybody is saying that. When somebody says think, it implies a question. I also think it might not work, I just choose to not say it that way.

You can say what you want. I'm fine w/that. I wasn't criticizing you. I was just expressing my personal opinion. I have problems w/evaluating a HC who has zero HC experience on any level. Being a HC is a totally different animal than being a coordinator or position coach. That is not an indictment. It just means that I have no idea if he will be good or not.

Dianna Russini
✔
@diannaESPN
as a Head Coach in the AFC North said to me yesterday “Stefanski had great success with Kirk Cousins...Baker Mayfield is way more talented. This could be really good fit for Cleveland”

1,394
8:25 AM - May 28, 2020
Twitter Ads info and privacy

Things like this lead me to thinking of the NFL as sort of a large scale episode of Iron Chef.

You have the existing Iron Chefs that have a system and are comfortable in it because they've been doing it for a while.

Then, you have Cleveland who is perennially picking a different upstart to come in and try his hand with whatever ingredients we have left in the cupboards.

I’m just trying to figure out which AFC north coach would have the background to make such a bold comparison.

KS

Sounds like Harbaugh to me, although Tomlin and Stefanski were both on the 2006 Vikings staff so it may have been him trying to talk up a former colleague.

We are not the KC Chiefs - on O and on D. It think our D can produce more 3 n outs or 2nd series stop the O's. And as mentioned we are going to run the crap out of the ball! No time for a Shoot out...only if we get behind several TDs will that happen

jmho

Where is his mask, tho?!

#StillFat

Last off-season I remember videos like this of Baker working out in his backyard with his brother in law. I remember thinking, "That's less than ideal."

I would much rather have him working out in a professional gym with trainers.

Also, put some shoes on please.

Can we really know how much this offense misses what's his name, man I miss what's his name from 2 years ago.

Even with Higgins, Landry and Odell, the offense isn't going to win games with a subpar performance from the defense that day,

Like it with unproven linebackers or not, this Browns team is going to need the defense to play above average on gamedays to get wins.

What's his name, that WR nobody liked yet he played well, and went to or came from the Ravens. The Browns really miss his production.

Perriman?

Well at least they are out doing something instead of being inside of their homes with video and technology. Doing things outside.

It seems that some of our "anti-Baker" fans will find "anything" to complain about...

Hopefully their bias will be noted and pointed out if we are to take some posts seriously...jmho..mac

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it is deliberate.
The movement he is doing is going to stretch the Achilles. Removing the shoes also removes any lift in the heel. Not only will he have a more solid base in contact with the floor, but he can now get a more acute range of motion from the ankle without having to move the knee as far forward.

Cam Newton QB2

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/cam-n...mains-unsigned/

No, thank you.

You can add me as an "anti-Baker" fan.

A thousand times 'no'

every year a QB gets injured. Newton would be smart and wait to sign with the team who has the injured QB and become the new starter.

Please explain.

It means I have absolutely zero interest in Cam Newton being part of the Browns. I thought he was a supreme athlete and an average QB even when he was "good" and he has not been good for a long time through injury and other factors. Baker last year as bad as he was, was probably a better QB than Cam is right now ... And add to that he is a diva which we certainly do not need. All just my opinion.

I am not a huge Cam fan. I agree that he is a diva. But, Baker is the biggest diva in the NFL in my opinion. Cam played in a SB. Cam was the league MVP. I wonder if you don't want Cam here because you are afraid he will be better than Baker? After all, your history says that you will go to great lengths to defend Baker.

Anyone else concerned that Cam was throwing to OBJ?

Not crazy about those optics.

I am also on record as saying I'm concerned about the Baker OBJ pairing. I don't think Baker excels in situations where he's not the clear alpha.

Would you rather have Baker or OBJ?

You asked a straight forward question and i gave a straight forward answer. Your reply speculating and questioning my motivation and reasoning seems aimed at antagonization. I'll pass, thanks.

Good point. I will step aside.

I think it’s more that they are both in LA and need to practice. OBJ worked out with Baker when he was on the Giants and it was meaningless. This is also meaningless.

I would rather have Baker.

They managed to make a sweet video though! Had the camera crew out to capture it all.

I thought OBJ was rehabbing; that's why he couldn't go to Texas.

If the Baker OBJ chemistry experiment fails it could derail the whole season.

Maybe the rehab is working? It has been several weeks since the Austin get together.

Can't breathe properly with a mask for workouts. His workouts don't seem to be in a crowded environment. Maybe the Trainer should have worn a mask but it seemed like a controlled environment. We are not in some state of affairs that breathing the air will get us sick.

Maybe the timing just didn't work out, but I thought it was weird that he skipped Camp Baker due to injury and is now out there with Cam.

Depending on the relationship between Cam and OBJ, maybe OBJ is just trying to help Cam land a job by trying to raise Cam's profile?

Landry said the reason he didn’t go was because getting all his rehab equipment back and forth would be too difficult.

j/c:

This should be popcorn worthy. The Baker part starts at the 9:15 mark.

Thanks for sharing.

I don't think Baker is on a short leash. However, his leash is shortER now that 'Buddy Boy' Dorsey is gone.

I don't think he gets pulled though by a first year HC. Only way Baker sits is due to injury.

Mike Tannebaum, the former Jets GM who supposedly has ties to Stefanski was the first guy who reported it. The Wiley piece was over the top, but maybe Tannebaum knows something?

The amount of money the Browns paid Keenum makes one wonder especially since there are ties between him and Stefanski.

Baker was really, really bad last year. I don't think he was as great as some claim he was as a rookie. His stat line was middle of the pack. He talks a lot. Hasn't worked very hard. Seems to want things given to him.

I'm guessing, but I think the Browns have done--and will continue--to support him as much as they can. He has more weapons than any qb in the league. But, it's time to step up. If he doesn't.........I would not be surprised if they go in another direction.

Popcorn worthy? I don't believe so ... I think a better assessment might be to look at the other presenter's reaction who obviously feels the same way I do - this is slow-off season contrived controversy.

Yes - Baker played badly last year. Yes he needs to step it up. Yes if he plays as badly as last year he will be replaced.

Interesting that you don't think Baker's NFL record breaking rookie season was all that impressive stat wise. Are you saying that in comparison to other rookie QB's or in comparison to other NFL starters?

If Stefanski pulls Baker he's not the right coach for this team. Is anyone in this organization ever going to play the long game?

Keenum is not even in the same zip code as Baker as far as talent. It's not even really an option for Baker to be on a short leash as they will be throwing in the towel on him and the organization is again going to go in a different direction at quarterback and the insanity continues.

But on the bright side I guess my new team will be the one Baker is the QB for.

4 head coaches before his third year even begins. 4 offensive coordinators before his third year even begins. 2 front offices before his third year even begins. But Baker has a short leash? Maybe the Browns should have a short leash and be relegated.

Popcorn worthy. LOL

My final popcorn worthy thought is I've been watching videos like this for the last several weeks. Baker dominates the airwaves, and the guy hasn't really said anything. Meanwhile, Sam Darnold played good down the stretch last year against bottom feeders, and the world is all giddy about his prospects. When Baker did it it was caveated with "but he played bad teams". The difference is they like Sam Darnold, the person.

Bottom line, I hope you don't get your wish and Baker fails. I just don't believe that's best for the Browns. I don’t trust Tannebaum. Guy is a boob. I believe he does know Stefanski. I'd bet a large sum of money he didn't get this information from Stefanski. In other words, he's making it up.

However, if I'm appearing a little passionate about this, it's true I am. The Browns finally have a QB, and I'm very concerned they will Browns it up, regardless of what anyone says in the media. Kev and Drew will need to get their guy!

LOL...the Browns. One long ongoing sitcom.

I don't want Baker to fail.

I'm sure this makes you happy...lol

The assumption in all that talk is that Baker will play lousy. Yeah if Garrett plays lousy his job is in jeopardy if Ward plays lousy his job is in jeopardy, if Chubb plays lousy his job is in jeopardy. If Baker plays lousy his job is in jeopardy.

What I'm glad to here is if Baker "GOES DOWN" we got a capable guy to jump in and do well!

jmho

Nothing going on,,, Sports talking heads need something to fill the dead space,, I doubt Baker is on any shorter leash than anyone ever.

I really don't understand all the hate on Baker. I blame OBJ. He didn't show for training camp. He didn't go to Austin to hang with teammates. He dropped passes,tipped passes for ints. Didn't run correct routes.

Baker tried to force throws to OBJ for whatever reason. Freddy?. He threw the ball to hard which caused it to go high. OBJ is still on the team . That worries me.

What have you done since you came here?

Would it take an elite receiver to replace him and his production? That said, I expect a much better season from both of these guys.

My biggest concern with OBJ has nothing to do with his talent or even his actions - watches, shoes, whatever. I don't think Baker's personality and OBJ's personality mesh on the football field. I think Baker thrives when he's the unquestioned top dog, the alpha, the dominant guy in the room. I don't think he can be that with OBJ. I don't think he knows how to be that with OBJ, and I think that affects his game. The only way this changes is for Baker to establish his dominance over OBJ on the field, in the huddles, in the meeting rooms. I don't know if Baker has it in him. The only other way it changes is if they trade OBJ. I'm very torn on that.

Some may label this a weakness of Baker, and I wouldn't disagree. But if you are trying to build the team around him and make him as comfortable as possible, you have to make him the unquestioned leader of the team. He plays his best when he's leading.

If Baker is not the unquestioned leader of the team in huddles, we are in trouble.

I don't see OBJ that way, I see him as a star player, but one with little interest of being the vocal leader.

So IMO Baker would not feel any animosity or threat from OBJ. Now Jarvis on the other hand I do see as a leader, stand up and challenge others type. And he and Baker seem to get along fine.

It might be different if Jarvis was a QB, but as a WR, Baker is not threatened by his leadership ability.

I don't feel Baker feels any animosity or threat from OBJ.

I don't think Baker feels comfortable being the type of leader he's accustomed to with OBJ. I don't think guys look to Baker as the unquestioned leader when OBJ is present. I think both Baker's and OBJ's voices carry weight, and I think Baker is more comfortable when his is the lone voice.

It's a comfortable-ness thing. Not threat or animosity. And I have no doubt both guys want to be on the same team together, make it work, and have success.

This is just my opinion putting on my psychologist's hat. No one's at fault here. This isn't anything someone is doing to someone else. Sometimes personalities and chemistry mesh. Sometimes they don't.

I agree with Florida regarding OBJ's style, in terms of leadership. He actually seems like the polar opposite of Jarvis, in that regard. I don't think he needs to be 'dominated' because he's not vying for a leadership role (at least a vocal one). He seems like a guy that wants to lead in terms of doing his job, and being a key cog in an explosive offense. I don't see him standing up and talking (outbursts don't count) to pull people in one direction.

So through that lens, what you're describing (re: Baker) is a guy that's intimidated by OBJ's talent/attitude. I don't think that's the case at all.

You know what, I think this is exactly what I'm saying. Not sure I would use those exact words, but yes the gist is what I'm saying. And I think because of that, it's harder for Baker to lead and be Baker.

j/c...

I think the "who's the leader" narrative get's blown out of proportion when it comes down to players succeeding on the field of play. It rears it's ugly head with Baker and OBJ because they both appear as alphas. The QB is the leader in the huddle and on the field. Even quiet leaders (QBs) who are overshadowed by a domineering personality usually just focus more on their job.

Furthermore, leadership at the QB level is a lot easier and clear-cut when there is strong leadership on the sideline. When you stack up everything from last year... the expectations for Baker, the expectations for the team, trouble instituting an offense, etc... the glaring shortcoming (to me) seemed to be leadership of the head-coach. I think he seemed more like "one of the guys" and expected Baker to straighten things out, Baker and Landry to get OBJ on the right page. As a HC - that was failure of leadership, and it's unfair to players to be put in that position.

Baker and OBJ are both in the "show me" phase now. Their individual talent and responsibilities to the team are under the spotlight. I think, as long as Kev is a strong leader, things will be fine, on a psychological level anyway, between Baker and OBJ.

I couldn't think of a good term, but I think oober has it right with not "intimidated"

I don't believe a word of that. But for the sake of argument, let's say you are correct. In that event how sad would it be that you are expecting your team leader to be a person whose ego is so easily bruised and fragile that he feels threatened in his ability to lead his team if anyone else on the team has a strong personality?

Like I said, I don't believe your assertion is true at all. But if it is, that's really sad.

I don't think it's as big an indictment on Baker as you are saying or "sad" as you say. I just don't think they're a good fit.

I hope I'm wrong.

I think Baker has an alpha persona but he's a little bit soft sometimes. I don't think these traits are game breakers. I am firmly in Baker's corner.

Just my opinion.

Do you have any kind of proof to lend credence to that claim? Articles? Quotes from players, coaches, etc?

If you don't, it's not a very nice rumor to start. There are plenty of people who do not like OBJ and adding one more thing for them to use against him is unfair.

I know you are firmly in OBJ's corner, and that he has no negatives in your mind.

I also know no matter how many times you claim to want Baker to succeed, I don't believe you. I believe your dislike for him supersedes your desire to see the Browns be successful.

So I am not surprised by your post. However, my post does not read like a rumor or a substantiated report or anything concrete at all. I don't claim any of those things. It reads as an observation and my opinion. I don't need to substantiate that.

It's an opinion - clearly stated. A lot like when you saying Baker "seems" to want things handed to him. . . . I don't agree with the opinion that Baker can't handle OBJ and that they can't work well together, I think it's just another thing to adjust to - another dynamic to figure out. Just like I think Baker will show everyone how hard he is willing to work this year and won't take anything for granted.

Well, there is nothing else to talk about since you are calling me a liar.

It's not a lie if you believe it.

Do you have any kind of proof to lend credence to that claim? Articles? Quotes from players, coaches, etc?

If you don't, it's not a very nice rumor to start. There are plenty of people who do not like Baker and adding one more thing for them to use against him is unfair.

There are articles about him taking time away from football. There are stories about him demeaning "qb gurus." So yes, I do. Unlike you, I won't just make crap up to win an argument.

What went wrong for Baker Mayfield, and can he be fixed? A progress report on the Browns QB

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29387595

Without giving the actual context of those articles, this is a really poor assessment of what actually took place.

You're not being honest about what actually happened and simply making two statements to manipulate people's opinions on Baker.

I believe you're either trying to be dishonest or you just hate Baker that much. Or both.

That was one of most comprehensive, fair, and accurate articles I have read in a long, long time. Excellent journalism. Thanks for posting.

I actually understand what you're saying and why you'd think that.

I don't think Baker racing down to an OBJ who lost a fumble on the 1 yd line, ala Callaway, would have necessarily been effective leadership.

I don't know that Baker is intimidated by OBJ, but he doesn't seem accustomed to leading the OBJ type players.

Or it could be OBJ just isn't giving Baker a chance to lead him.

Barnwell is really good. A few thoughts from the article.

1. Recency bias is a real thing and someone even as good as Barnwell is susceptible to it. I just do not agree in any form or fashion with him or any talking head that Mayfield's job is in jeopardy in year 4. The only exception is major collapse and the Browns drafting first. Mayfield is just too talented to give up on only three years in. Add in the lack of stability in the organization, and he gets a major mulligan in my book.

2. Continuing with that trend, Barnwell really focused on 2019. While he does cite 2018, it's almost like it doesn't exist in the NFL universe. Baker showed tremendous, and I mean tremendous, pocket presence in 2018 (I've been rewatching the games again, currently on the Falcons game). He also showed that he's a quick learner in that when he did work from under center, he looked comfortable and natural. The coaches need to get that version of Mayfield back, but it's there.

3. I hate the Cousins and Keenum comparisons. I don't think he mentioned Keenum, but he did mention Cousins. I get it's due to Stefanski, but he was implying some expectations for Mayfield should be in line with Cousins from last year if he plays well. Take everything good about Cousins, his accuracy, steadiness, lack of turnovers. Mayfield can give you that plus a Brett Favre big play ability that Cousins doesn't possess and doesn't want to possess. The key and trick for the coaching staff is going to be finding the right balance for Mayfield in being steady and consistent while unleashing his big play ability ... his plus level throws. I think this is an underrated aspect of Mayfield's game. The aggressive plus level throws.

Get him steady and figure out times when you let Mayfield be Mayfield and I think he soars.

btw...not to get off subject but yeah off subject...lol

How is your daughter doing. I say a prayer for her everyday, all the best.

Both my son and daughter have been cleared and are back to work.

That's good news!

I may not have the same reservations as you, but I agree. Baker didn't work very hard last off season. I have shared some of why I think that was and won't share it here, but no doubt he came in overweight. Couple that with a offense that was in disarray, it was a bad combination.
We, as in the board can argue until we are blue in the face. Lets see what happens in 2021.

This year isn't going to happen. I think the NFL really wanted MLB to come back, but too many players balked. NFL players are going to do the same. MLB canceling their season dooms the NFL season.

Did the MLB officially cancel their season?

I agree it doesn't look good for the NFL.

Minor League Baseball. Not the MLB.

Interesting I do not remember any game where OBJ fumbled, apart from the 49rs punt return...

I don't recall one, either.

He was referring to the Calloway kick-fumble.

Sorry for the bad info. My bad. I didn't pick up the i in MiLB.

I still think there are going to be problems.

Baker got full of himself after he broke Mannings TD record. He felt it was going to be easy sledding after that.
He believed too much in his own hype. Had too many "yes" men around him
And Freddie the Fatboy didn't bother to push Baker to become a better QB
Both Freddie and Baker took the same attitude
Going into 2019. Both thought they could show up and half #=%= everything and still produce
Success.
Freddie really pulled the wool over Browns
Fans eyes last year.

jc --

Since NFL Game Pass is still free through the end of July, is anyone else taking advantage of it?

I've been rewatching games from the last two years, specifically focusing on Mayfield. The stark contrast between 2018 and 2019 is something I can't quite reconcile and wrap my head around.

2018 - Goes through progressions. Calm feet. Climbs the pocket. Continues to play with confidence after making mistakes. Consistently praised for these attributes by the broadcast team doing the games.

2019 - Frenetic. Nervous. Happy feet. Leaves pocket too early. Doesn't appear to have any idea of what's going on. Still makes the occasional big time throw which gives me hope.

Watch the Houston game from 2018. Threw three picks in the first half, but you never felt like he was playing particularly bad. He had a number of really outstanding throws in that game that far exceeded the bad ones. He never lost his confidence and kept coming and coming. Last year, he would have gone into a shell and from his body language you can tell he would have thrown in the towel.

Baker is a guy that is not used to adversity. Plays his best loose with high confidence. He really, really, really needs some big last minute wins over tough competition to build some confidence in himself.

I think he has the goods. I really do. Watching games from 2018 and 2019 is a bizarro world though. Only in Cleveland can it take a 180 degree turn. Other than LeBron, which guaranteed a Finals appearance every year, you can never count on last year as an indicator of future success. Doesn't work that way in Cleveland.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought you were leaning in the opposite direction (putting it mildly) during and/or after last season. Did re-watching games change your opinion or am I misrepresenting your overall position altogether ?

I was very critical of Baker during the season. Very disappointed in his play. If I made any future predictions based on that (I don't know if I did), I was probably victim to being a prisoner of the moment.

The farther we put the 2019 season into the rear view and the more I watch past games, I'm less emotional and more objective about it. I have my concerns, but I think Baker has way more positives than negatives and can be a winning quarterback. I think it behooves the Browns to commit to him and continue to develop him.

The problem with that plan is if Baker doesn't play well this year, the media and fans will be screaming to start over. And you know Kev and Drew will want their guy. And the madness will continue.

This just absolutely CANNOT be allowed to happen unless Baker falls so flat on his face that we'd rather bring Ken Dorsey. THAT is how hard they have to stick to Baker.

We are very much on the same page.

Quarterback play will always be placed under a microscope. Comes with the turf.

On this Board Baker has been dissected every which way.

Everybody has their opinions and the spread is vast. We all know he is starting under his fourth head coach and OC.
Some say it is an excuse to look at that others feel differently.

When the draft was happening. I wanted Darnold in a big way. Like Baker he is facing the same questions. Same for Josh Allen. Rosen not so much.

In the play so far Darnold and Baker are about where one would expect. Darnold of course had mono so that happened.

But young quarterbacks are going to be inconsistent especially high picks going to bad teams.

One of the problems I believe is because we are so deeply vested in our quarterbacks. We measure them against perfection because of expectation.

Baker was exceptional the second half of 2018. We all were giddy. 2019 team expectations were threw the roof. The team did not deliver on those expectations. Baker was inconsistent and when bad he looked worse because of what we wanted and expected.

But when you look. He still made a lot of very good throws.

I don't measure quarterbacks only on what they did wrong. I look at what they did right even when the end results may have been poor.

I could be dead wrong but I still believe that Darnold and Baker are both going to be good players in the NFL.

Baker IMO will be good. How good? This year I am curbing my enthusiasm. The Browns are in a tough spot as are all the teams with new staffs.

This whole 2020 season is an asterisk. It is not normal and I don't think it can be judged as normal.

However, I do believe in Baker. I think he has talent and he has what it takes. This year will be important in his development. I don't think it is an end all year.

If I had to venture a guess. I think he will show improvement but will continue with some inconsistency.

I get that you are on a crusade to shut down any negative talk about Baker, but Baker was slow to go through progressions both years.

His overall qb rating wasn't that good in 2018. It was about average. It was bad when he was asked to play qb in the traditional pocket passer role and improved immensely when Freddie took over and they went to a bunch of one-read, quick-hitting plays where he didn't have to think. They also only asked him to read half the field.

That's fine and dandy for awhile, but NFL coordinators catch up and that is why you see many guys digress once the book is out.

You guys can rip me a new one yet again, but it's going to be hard for Baker to succeed if he can't improve his reading of coverages. He might improve for the short-term w/some new schemes by the new coaching staff, but eventually, teams will catch up. He is also going to have to put the work in. Hopefully, he is working on the things Van Pelt sent him and not practicing how to kneel.

To be clear.........I am not saying that Baker won't improve. Perhaps he can actually go through his progressions like a decent NFL qb. I hope he can because that helps the Browns. But, make no mistake, he must improve in that area.

An opinion is not a crusade. Go back and rewatch the games from 2018. Much different quarterback than 2019, including going through his progressions. Not saying he was perfect, but he was a completely different QB.

I'm concerned about fans like you who don't like him for non-football reasons. I'm also concerned about fans who won't be patient with him. Your voices will be loud. The idiot owner will listen. Kev and Drew will listen. They will feel pressure to get their guy. Casting Baker aside will be one of the worst things this franchise could ever do.

Fans like you who put personal preferences above the team are not what this team needs. They need a little patience and stability.

I think there were differences in his performance from '18 and '19, but he never did a good job of "going through his progressions." They just changed the offense to help him. Again, that was not sustainable.



I don't like him as a person. But, I have said numerous times I want him to succeed because it would help the team. You claim I am a liar. Others will jump in and once again the conversation goes away from Baker and attacking a board member. Whatever...

As for the rest, opinions are opinions. We all have them. I am not trying to take away your opinion. I just have a different one. I think we should both have the right to voice said opinions w/out ridicule.

Have a nice day.

Rewatch some games from 2018. Some of it surprised me as well.

great news...now lets get back at biting each others head off...lol

j/c:



I'm interested to go back and hear this interview in it's entirety.