Brandon Thorn is one of the most respected offensive line analysts online.
I have to say I was pretty worried about Jedrick Wills when we drafted him. I was worried about his switch from left tackle to right tackle. I was even more worried when there was no OTAs. I was peak level worried when there were bad reports from training camp. Almost all of my worries have been assuaged after these first two games. He has been more than competent.
I was also pleased with how well Chris Hubbard filled in last week. We didn't miss Jack Conklin at all versus the Bengals. I don't think he had one game like that all of last season. Having him backing up the tackle spots, with all of his experience, gives our line great depth.
Wyatt Teller has also been a huge surprise. I thought if he was league average our line would be pretty good. It turns out that Teller is good and so far our line has been elite.
I was fairly confident with Wills physical skill set he could make the transition. But mush as yourself, with the limited training camp and no preseason I feared it would take much longer than this for him to make the transition.
I still do not consider him a finished product but he's further along in the process at this point that I thought he would be. It's nice to feel this positive about a first round draft pick this early.
Early returns look highly promising. You weren't the only one very concerned about the RT to LT switch ... a lot of people made a lot of noise about it. When you draft that high you want a sure thing. Whether Wills was our #1 target or whether he fell to us when the other LT's were taken ahead of us, IDK. But I like the results so far.
I've seen that Andrew Thomas is struggling - not seen anything on Becton or Wirfs ... I would have taken any but was least hot on Becton worried his size will ultimately lead to injuries.
Those cuts are nice to look at ... simply you don't notice Wills, which is a GREAT thing for your rookie LT. The whole unit is playing lights out so far. Pittsburgh will be a real test in 3 weeks.
Early returns look highly promising. You weren't the only one very concerned about the RT to LT switch ... a lot of people made a lot of noise about it. When you draft that high you want a sure thing. Whether Wills was our #1 target or whether he fell to us when the other LT's were taken ahead of us, IDK. But I like the results so far.
I've seen that Andrew Thomas is struggling - not seen anything on Becton or Wirfs ... I would have taken any but was least hot on Becton worried his size will ultimately lead to injuries.
Those cuts are nice to look at ... simply you don't notice Wills, which is a GREAT thing for your rookie LT. The whole unit is playing lights out so far. Pittsburgh will be a real test in 3 weeks.
Becton has drawn rave reviews so far. Wirfs is the starting right tackle for the Bucks. I don’t know how high he is rated but the Bucks seem happy with him. We’ll see as the year goes on.
Didn't Chris Hubbard start for like 10 years with the Steelers before he even came to the Browns and all of last year, maybe 2-3 years with the Browns, People say they think he does well for a backup,
I feel like, Oh No, this could be the first, almost hall of famer, who his team wouldn't admit he's a starter. C'mon Man.
We’re on way to having a dominant OL that mauls opponents. Hell, we might he already there, but if not we’ll only get better. I’m very optimistic. I’d like to throw 20 times a game and let our great RBs take us to the end zone.
I wasn't worried once he got The HOF's stamp of approval. Thought he might take a few games to get to the level he's at. Glad he's progressing faster than expected!
IIRC, Hubbard started a lot with the Steelers, but mostly due to OL injuries. He was the swing tackle/backup Guard. Even though it may have seemed like he was the starter, he started all over the the line. I believe he was more of a backup Guard than Tackle.
IIRC, Hubbard started a lot with the Steelers, but mostly due to OL injuries. He was the swing tackle/backup Guard. Even though it may have seemed like he was the starter, he started all over the the line. I believe he was more of a backup Guard than Tackle.
I believe there was a stat floating around this off-season about how Chris Hubbard has never taken a snap at guard in the NFL. For the Steelers he was a backup tackle and started ten games before becoming a free agent (and then we paid him).
While Hubbard, who started 10 games last season, has mostly played right tackle, he's considered one of the league's most versatile linemen, taking snaps at both guard spots, left tackle and even blocking tight end for Pittsburgh.Mar 15, 2018
When Chris Hubbard started the game Sunday as a blocking tight end, it began an unexpectedly busy afternoon for the 26-year-old offensive lineman.
By the time the Steelers’ 26-9 victory against the Minnesota Vikings was complete, Hubbard’s time at tight end paled in comparison to the snaps he took at two other spots on offense.
When Alejandro Villanueva exited because of a stomach illness, Hubbard moved into the starting lineup for 21 snaps at left tackle. When Marcus Gilbert left in the fourth quarter because of a hamstring injury, Hubbard moved over to right tackle for the final 15 snaps.
Oh, and Hubbard also played 10 snaps while taking his regular turn on the special teams coverage units.
To recap, that’s four positions — if you count special teams — played by Hubbard in one game, and that’s not counting the practice reps he has taken at center and both guard positions since the start of training camp.
I definitely don't know much about the nuances of O Line play but watching those videos its clear even to my untrained eye just how important those seemingly small things he does are to a successful play.
Watching that trap replay, it illustrates that Wills is a guy who's cool under fire. How many times have we seen a defender break free on a delayed blitz or rush because the O Lineman "needed" something to do and jumps in on a double team when they really don't need to? He trusted Bitonio and stuck to his assignment. Really impressive.
"Wills gets his outside arm trapped by Lawson's chop but check out the athletic ability to recover. So impressive. Then Teller just wins his rep handily vs. Hubbard kicked inside. Smacks him around."
My review of Wills on this play is 'a bit' different. I'm not going to make excuses for Wills..he clearly gets beat by an outside rush that very well could have been a sack had the QB not avoided the rush by stepping forward, then rolling to his left.
I'm not sure that Wills that awkward looking shuffle is going to be quick enough to keep up with defenders who specialize in the outside speed rush..on this play Wills shuffle didn't work.
As for Thorn's comment about Wills athletic ability to recover...as a last resort to save Mayfield from being sacked, Wills sticks his arm out in an attempt keep the DE away. It was an act of desperation after being beaten by the speed rush.
So, anyone else think that maybe Joe Thomas had a small hand in this? I'd say that, at the very least, Wills spent a LOT of time studying film of Joe and then practicing the things he saw.
With the question of Wills all but resolved, and Teller looking to beast out and lock down RG permanently, it's pretty safe to say that our OLine is beyond solid; we've got studs at all 5 spots. We have the kind of line that was only a pipe dream back in the days of Orlando Pace buying a house in Sandusky. On top of that, with Hubbard acquitting himself fairly well, and Drew Forbes still having solid potential, we have five studs AND depth. Add in our skill positions and this offense is really just an embarrassment of riches. I honestly cannot recall any team being this stacked at EVERY position.
I'm going from memory here .... but there was some really excellent analysis and breakdown of film on all the top tackles pre-draft. I forget who did it - but they were plenty good and deep. From memory the biggest single criticism on Wills (other than the probable switch from RT to LT) was that he had a tendency to take a big initial kick back to get into position - at the time he was playing RT that initial step was with his right foot. The film highlighted how some rushers could exploit such a big initial step by coming back inside.
Looking at this one clip - Will is showing really fast feet, but perfectly in control with smaller steps. It seems to be a really significant change already and he's now on the flip side. Impressive learning curve.
I’ve said it before, but, this offense is a simple scheme for the linemen. Which is good. Very good. Because it is schematically easy, it is much more technique-driven.
It looks like the o-line has learned the scheme, and now will keep on working the technique and execution.
Callahan was a HUGE addition for this team.
This wasn’t a bad line last year, statistics have shown, it is now gelling into a great one.
I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but ZBS is more complicated than Man blocking. By far.
I will say that BC is correct in that working cohesively is the biggest factor in the success of ZBS. I've said this before, but it's like a synchronized swim team or a dance team. Timing, synchronicity, and cohesion are huge. You want smarter guys playing in a ZBS. Any dummy can man block, as long as is powerful enough. LOL.....that's not actually true, but there are big, dumb guys who can dominate in a Man or Base blocking scheme and would be ineffective in a ZBS.
Whether Wills was our #1 target or whether he fell to us when the other LT's were taken ahead of us, IDK. But I like the results so far.
I've seen that Andrew Thomas is struggling - not seen anything on Becton or Wirfs ... I would have taken any but was least hot on Becton worried his size will ultimately lead to injuries.
It's a minor point, but Thomas was the only LT taken ahead of us at #4. Becton was the first pick after us, and Wirfs 2 picks after Becton.
I was curious. Thomas was supposed to be the "plug-and-play" LT. Has anyone seen him play? How has he been?
I haven't seen him play but PFF has a 56.0 rating on him FWIW. But is is only two games which is a very small sample size. Compare this to Wills who has a score of 66.4.
Thank you for the reminder ... I knew there was a run, for some reason I had it flipped. 3 OT's in 4 picks and we were the first to pick after Thomas went #4.
I was 100% on the Becton train before the draft. I ranked the top 4 like this. Becton, Thomas, Wirfs and Wills. I still think Becton will be a fine pro. But I am very happy with JWills. The Browns talent evaluators knew the skill set they wanted at the position and Wills is delivering.
It does start with a misstatement in the 1st sentence: "Since the controversial trade of Kevin Zeitler, the Browns have been seeking to fill the void left by his departure at right tackle, currently on third-year guard Wyatt Teller."
Cup of Joe: How do you make an O-lineman uncomfortable? Tell him how great he is
In his weekly column, Joe Thomas praises the Browns O-line while explaining why it's a weird feeling to be on the receiving end of it
Sep 24, 2020 at 10:25 AM JoeThomas-Author Joe Thomas Columnist
Catch Joe Thomas TONIGHT at 6:30 p.m. when he co-hosts "Browns Live" powered by FirstEnergy with Nathan Zegura. The 100 percent fan-focused show, which will stream on all of the Browns social platforms, will feature multiple segments with Coach Kevin Stefanski, interviews with players, film breakdowns and more.
Each game week, Joe will share his insights, memories and more in this weekly column, "Cup of Joe."
Offensive linemen aren't wired for praise and adulation. It makes us uncomfortable.
That's because, as an offensive lineman, you learn that attention is usually a bad thing. You usually shun it because the only type of attention that an offensive lineman is usually getting is when it's bad: penalties, offsides, holding, false starts, sacks allowed, pressures, quarterback hits, mental errors. There are very few times in an offensive lineman's life cycle where he likes to have the spotlight on him. Even when you make a nice block and you scored a touchdown, typically, the focus is going to be on the person that scored the touchdown. You can run over there and do the Joel Bitonio and try to get your face on camera by giving the running back a little hug but even still, most of the time the camera and the ball carrier are saying "Get out of my way. I'm trying to show my friends and family at home who scored this touchdown."
We would always say in our o-line room, "I don't want to be the reason." If you're a receiver and you're the reason, that typically means you're the reason you won, made a great catch. But when you're the reason as an offensive lineman, they're talking about the reason you lost. You just don't want to be singled out.
Over the past week, I'm guessing there have been plenty of uncomfortable moments for the Browns offensive line. They've been the focus of a lot of praise — a lot of it coming from me! — since last week's dominant performance against the Bengals.
It had to be one of the most dominating performances that I can remember in recent memory. Thinking back, the last time the Browns offensive line and running game was that overwhelmingly dominant was probably 2014 when we played the Steelers at home in that great blowout win. Unfortunately, that was the game that Alex Mack broke his leg but I think that was the most recent game where everything you did was dominating the defense. They had their heads on a swivel because they had no idea what play was coming, and it didn't matter anyways because they couldn't stop any of them.
It's early, but what I've seen has been impressive. And I give Kevin Stefanski a lot of credit because when we had Kyle Shanahan in 2014, we really didn't run anything but outside zone. It takes some time to learn and gel because it is very different and the coordination needs to be spot on. It has to be like that Swiss watch, a timepiece that is perfectly machined and coordinated, or it doesn't work and you have big losses. But Kevin hasn't only featured outside zone. He smartly realized, "Hey, I've got Joel Bitonio and Wyatt Teller and JC Tretter. Those are guys that are very good at getting out in space, pulling, hitting targets." And so he's featured and sprinkled in a lot of that stuff early on.
Based on film, it has to be Teller. No slight to Hubbard intended. His play in this system has been a pleasant surprise.
With the development of Hubbard, the Browns may have developed something they have lacked and sought for many years..."quality OLine depth" capable of stepping in and playing at a high level without a drop off in performance.
It is likely that OLine injuries will happen be it at OG or OT and now the Browns have the OLine depth to fill those needs without a drop off in performance.
Teller has keyed the running game thus far. He stays unless the early results are a fluke. Even then, Hubbard's last game may have been a fluke, too. So either way, probably Teller. He is slowly making the Zeitler for Vernon trade more palatable.
Wouldn't that be on the guard (Bitonio)? He goes to double a guy that the center was free to block, leaving the LT to handle 2. It makes perfect sense to me for Wills to choose to block the inside guy and let the outside guy go, but why did he even have to choose?
Yes, you are missing something. There are two open receivers there. When teams blitz like that, it's up to the qb to recognize it and get rid of the ball quickly. Baker misread it and rolled to the right.
The Browns OLine, Bitonio and Wills MISREAD their blocking assignments, with both the LG and LT double teaming down instead of reading the blitz coming right over the area that they are responsible for pass blocking.
The QB may have had 1 second to read the pass receivers progression through their routes, while running for his life because the Browns OLine used 3 blockers to block the 2 pass rushers on the left side of the Browns Oline.
Come Vers, stop the damn agenda put the fault where it belongs.
If you look at Wills drop, it would certainly seem like he was setting up to block the outside, and then jumped in to get a hit on the inside rusher (again, while Bitonio was getting the guy Tretter already had). Bitonio then comes back on the guy that I'm going to assume was supposed to be his.
Baker did have his TE open in the middle, but looks like he would've had to either throw the ball across his body or throw before the receivers head turned around.
Look............I gave my opinion on what should have happened because I was a coach who designed and called plays. I was trying to educate. It's up to you guys if you want to believe me or not. I'm out.
Blitzes are only recognized when they're actually employed...hence post-snap. The corresponding TE or back has to recognize it also, and know they're the "hot" receiver.
You're wrong, too. It's up the qb to make a pre-snap read to identify the blitz and find the "hot" route.
Should that blitz have been easy to identify? Asking seriously. If so, should he call the hot route? Point it out? He had plenty of time (I went back and watched from the normal angle), there was 11 on the play clock.
With that said, the play was basically hopeless once the ball was snapped. Only quick pass (under one second before the rush was in his face) was to OBJ - who was not yet turned around with coverage behind him and a LB racing over at the snap.
I don't know the answer to that because I did not get a good look at the defensive alignment and our formation. I do know that the OL can't pick-up everyone when teams blitz. It's up to the QB and receivers [RB, WRs, TE] to recognize it pre-snap and one of those guys will be the "hot" receiver.
Not sure if you read it or not, but I brought this up in the Other Games thread when we were talking about Mahomes and how Griese was pointing out how he was correctly identifying where the blitz was coming from.
I am not piling on Baker here. QBs don't always identify the blitz. It happens all the time. I was just trying to defend the OL because there are times that things happen that they can't account for. Negative plays happen and I don't think a big deal should be made of that play in regards to blaming the line, Baker, or the hot receiver. Of course, we [myself included] have made a big deal of that play.
Back to the OL. They've played great this year. I think most of us can see that and their PFF grades help confirm it. Willis has the lowest grade, but he is playing the hardest position and he is a rookie who never played at LT. I would say that I am very happy w/his performance thus far. His footwork is better than some of the reports I read before the draft. Looks like a good choice by Berry and the boys.
I should have prefaced my earlier posts by saying that I learn best when I'm digging in and picking things apart. This can sometimes come across as me being critical. Not the case at all, though.
I thought of that after I replied. I had just come off of the Covid thread in the Political forum and listened to the garbage being spewed by some of our open-minded posters.
Anyway.......no worries and sorry for lashing out.
I thought of that after I replied. I had just come off of the Covid thread in the Political forum and listened to the garbage being spewed by some of our open-minded posters.
Anyway.......no worries and sorry for lashing out.
I thought of that after I replied. I had just come off of the Covid thread in the Political forum and listened to the garbage being spewed by some of our open-minded posters.
Anyway.......no worries and sorry for lashing out.
No worries. I think it'd be nice to be able to come here and have thought-provoking football conversation before jumping back into PP.
Browns can still have NFL's best rushing attack -- even without Nick Chubb
Jake Trotter ESPN Staff Writer
On their first offensive snap Sunday in Dallas, the Cleveland Browns obliterated the Cowboys at the line of scrimmage so thoroughly no defender could even lay a hand on Nick Chubb until he'd almost reached the first-down marker. The 24-yard gain set the tone for the day and sent a message around the league.
This Browns' running game isn't just legit. It's a budding juggernaut.
Through four games, Cleveland tops the NFL with 818 rushing yards and averages a league-best 5.88 yards per carry. On top of that, the Browns have posted the fourth-highest total through any team's first four games to start a season over the past 30 years. Only the 2005 and 2006 Atlanta Falcons and last year's Baltimore Ravens rushed for more yards in their first four games -- and they boasted elite running quarterbacks in Michael Vick and Lamar Jackson, respectively.
Instead, the Browns are running roughshod over the opposition with smashmouth offensive line play, dogged perimeter blocking from their tight ends and wide receivers, and elite moves and tackle-breaking by Chubb and Kareem Hunt.
The Browns got some tough news Monday, when an MRI revealed Chubb had suffered an MCL injury to his right knee, which is expected to sideline him for several weeks.
Yet even after Chubb went down in the first quarter in Dallas, the Browns kept churning along on the ground. Hunt stepped in and ran for 71 yards and two touchdowns, and third-stringer D'Ernest Johnson barreled away for a game-high 95 yards. Together, Hunt and Johnson combined to average 7 yards per carry, and the Browns finished with 307 rushing yards, their highest game total in 11 years.
"That was good to see with those guys stepping up," said first-year coach and playcaller Kevin Stefanski, who has already implemented a clear and emphatic offensive identity in Cleveland. "The offensive line, the tight ends and the wide receivers, they are all straining, and the runners are running through arm tackles and breaking tackles."You lose a player of Nick's caliber, we are going to need those guys to step up, really across the entire offense."
Replacing Chubb, a Pro Bowler last season who entered the Dallas game fourth in the NFL in rushing, presents a considerable challenge for Stefanski and the Browns' offense. Even after missing most of Sunday's game, Chubb still ranks third with 148 rushing yards after contact. He's tied for second with four rushing touchdowns, and he's averaging a whopping 5.88 yards per carry.
But Sunday showed why the Browns might be equipped to weather the storm and keep rolling along until Chubb returns, which, according to ESPN's Adam Schefter, could be Nov. 15 against the winless Houston Texans.
One big reason for that is Hunt, who was the 2017 NFL rushing champ while with the Kansas City Chiefs. The other factor is perhaps the league's most improved offensive line, which is punishing opponents at the line of scrimmage.
Last year, a beleaguered Cleveland line ranked just 31st in run block win rate. This season, the Browns are second.
Free-agent signing Jack Conklin and first-round rookie Jedrick Wills Jr. have stabilized and solidified the tackle positions, which were a disaster last season. Inside, right guard Wyatt Teller has emerged into a run-blocking mauler, effectively flanking Pro Bowl left guard Joel Bitonio and veteran stalwart center JC Tretter.
Against the Cowboys, the Browns posted an 86.1% run block win rate, the highest percentage in a single game by any team since ESPN incorporated the metric using Next Gen Stats data before last season. Off that performance, the Browns now are one of only two teams to rank in the top five in both run block and pass block win rates (the Green Bay Packers, the other, played Monday night).
"It's easy to start with the runners who are doing an outstanding job, but you have to look at the entire offense and you have to look at the offensive line knocking guys off the ball, utilizing the correct technique and going to the right people," said Stefanski, who also credited experienced offensive line coach Bill Callahan for the staggering turnaround up front. "It really takes 11 guys to make a run game go."
It also helps to have a second elite back to bring in off the bench.
Hunt, who has five touchdowns, including three receiving, in his past three games actually ranks ahead of Chubb with 154 yards after contact, despite seven fewer carries. He leads the NFL with an average of 3.1 yards after contact per carry.
Hunt is more than capable of shouldering the load while Chubb is out. Especially if Johnson, one of the breakout standouts in training camp, can prove to be a reliable sidekick.
"I think we are pretty confident right now," Johnson said Monday. "It sucks that Nick had to get hurt. At the same time, we just have to continue to hold it down for the running back room."
The Browns face a pair of looming litmus tests these next two weeks. The Indianapolis Colts, next up on Sunday, boast the fourth-best run defense in the league; the Pittsburgh Steelers, who follow in Week 6, rank No. 1. The Cowboys, on the other hand, were just 23rd in run defense before the Browns decimated them.
"Nick is tough to replace obviously, but we have to just make sure we put a game plan together," Stefanski said, "and then find a way to move the rock any which way we can."
But so far, Cleveland has moved the rock on the ground at will. And as Sunday underscored, the Browns' rushing attack is about more than one player -- which is why it has been so tough to stop.
Through four games, Cleveland tops the NFL with 818 rushing yards and averages a league-best 5.88 yards per carry. On top of that, the Browns have posted the fourth-highest total through any team's first four games to start a season over the past 30 years. Only the 2005 and 2006 Atlanta Falcons and last year's Baltimore Ravens rushed for more yards in their first four games -- and they boasted elite running quarterbacks in Michael Vick and Lamar Jackson, respectively.
and...
Quote:
Against the Cowboys, the Browns posted an 86.1% run block win rate, the highest percentage in a single game by any team since ESPN incorporated the metric using Next Gen Stats data before last season. Off that performance, the Browns now are one of only two teams to rank in the top five in both run block and pass block win rates (the Green Bay Packers, the other, played Monday night)
The information in those two paragraphs is mind-blowing! Simply incredible data that demonstrates how well our OL is doing. I also want to give a shout-out to the WRs, TEs, and FB for helping w/the blocking. The team has bought in to what the staff is selling.
The more I think about oit, the more amazed I am at how the OL has performed thus far.
Consider all of the following:
No off-season camps, or sessions.
No preseason games.
Willis moving from right to left.
So-so RG from last year, having to get used to a new RT.
Tretter out for most, if not all of training camp, so that RG got used to playing with one guy, only to have that position changed for game 1.
Then we had an injury to Conklin, which necessitated our RT from last year, who played pretty poorly last year, to have to play. (which he did, and well at that)
It's crazy. OL often talk about the need for consistency. They say it can take a year for a Line to truly gel. Yet there have been numerous cuts of the OL so far this year, where they look almost like they could be performing to music, that's how well their movements are synchronized. It's is just astonishing.
I have to give a huge shout-out to the offensive line today. I get that the Bengals sold out to stop the run and dared the Browns to beat them though the air, but the OL gave Baker all day to throw almost all day long. Completely different story for Burrow.
I think our OL deserves a lot of credit and Callahan has been a huge upgrade from the dude we had last year.
After the Pitts game some put the blame for Baker’s bad game on the OL and play calling. It looks like the OL and play calling were big reasons for his success today. But not seeing that many putting that out there.
For the way our team is constructed, I think this is going to be the closest we'll ever get to any 1 person 'putting the team on their shoulders'.
I'm really impressed how Baker turned it around mid-game. Obviously, he had help (football is a team sport... hate how this has to be said in order to avoid the 'agenda' tag), but Baker's mental toughness was on display in order to flip things around from a disastrous start.
That second play to Hunt counts as a completion...? :-/
Baker was definitely given easier throws early on, but those definitely gave way to more difficult playcalls and throws. That's a testament to both Baker and Stefanski.
Man, that long play to Higgins that set up the game winner...
Bengals rushed 6 initially and did a delayed blitz bringing it up to 7 and Mayfield had a clean pocket. Kudos to the OL on that one. Obviously, kudos to Mayfield too for putting it in a good spot.
Hopefully Wyatt Teller will be healthy enough to start...the Browns offense especially the running game seems to miss his physical play and aggressive style.
Teller's play was a "pleasant surprise" as many of our Browns fans and talking heads considered his OG position as a weakness heading into the season. The Browns OL just seems to play better when he was starting.
If he and Chub are fully recovered it will add some much needed offensive punch, making the play action pass more effective.
I think I read somewhere that Hubbard when he's not filling in at RG, frequently comes in as a blocking TE. So for those jumbo running plays, Teller being out actually weakens two spots.
We definitely miss Teller, but I have been watching Hubbard and he is doing a good job. He is ranked 13th of 77 guards by PFF.
The weak link on the line has been Wills. He is ranked 66th out of 74 OT's. With that said, the OL has done an outstanding job this year. As has been noted before, teams are stacking the box against the Browns to stop the run because of the early-season success Cleveland had at running the ball. It seems that sometimes the Browns can exploit that like they did in the second Bengal game and sometimes they can't, like the Steeler and Raider games.
That's literally the difference between our wins and losses: teams that our OLine match up well against, we've won. The ones we haven't, we've lost. It's for a myriad of reasons, and it gets compounded when the QB makes a bad decision/throw or a receiver drops one that hits 'em in the hands.. .but, for this offense it boils down to one simple truth: when we cannot run it effectively, we bog down.
Now, we actually had some success running against the Raiders, but we threw it all away every time we got something going simply by dropping a ball or committing a penalty. I have not sat down and tracked it, but I would bet money that every single drive of ours that did not end in points was killed by one of those two things. We simply just reverted to Browns'ing it up, and the weather was all too happy to amplify the consequences of that.
With Teller this season, the Browns have averaged 6.8 yards per carry, and 3.9 without him. Their blown block pressure rate, per Sports Info Solutions, is 5.5% with Teller, and 9.2% without him.
It's probably both. Carlson has been...less than stellar when lining up in-line (in his defense, it's not really something we can ask Njoku to do when Bryant has been handling TE1 reps).
How much is Teller and how much is having the 6th man be Hubbard vs a TE?
I guess it doesn't matter, because unless Teller is there, we don't have the option of Hubbard as the 6th.
I think Teller has been great. I was talking about how good he looked after week 1. But, Hubbard has been good as well. Not as good as Teller, but way above average.
Again, I think the biggest difference is we are facing more 7 or more boxes than any team in the league. I doubt that was the case early on and we exploited it. Now, we need to exploit the D w/the passing game. If we can do that, I think the running lanes will emerge again.
Makes sense to me, Vers. One truism of martial arts is that your opponent cannot be strong in every way and in every direction at once. If the box overloads, something else should work elsewhere. Hope we are trying to take advantage of the obvious as you stated it. But if we are not doing it, those overloads will never stop in the second half of the season.
Bottom line is no lead is safe with this defense as played currently. Berry seemed to avoid the issue.
Hmmm... they cannot be strong in every way in every direction, but they only need to be strong enough in some directions. If they can stop the run and pressure the QB, that's 2/3rds of everything right there.
Think you have it, Grasshopper! The trick is knowing which way they are selling out to strength. You sacrifice something to gain that extra. Like dropping nine, you sacrifice the blitz and your run defense.
This is where Baker now has to show he can take the next step and be the passer we expect him to be. If he can exploit the D playing 7 or 8 in the box our O, when healthy, will be as difficult to stop as any. Its up to him and our O coaches now.
I am shocked at how good Wills has been and he has been about average. Switching positions with no off-season camps while being a rookie is difficult and he has done it pretty seamlessly. I look forward to his future development.
I am shocked at how good Wills has been and he has been about average. Switching positions with no off-season camps while being a rookie is difficult and he has done it pretty seamlessly. I look forward to his future development.
Aside from his pushback foot switching, it's the same position because he was already protecting the QB's blindside the same way he was in college.
I am shocked at how good Wills has been and he has been about average. Switching positions with no off-season camps while being a rookie is difficult and he has done it pretty seamlessly. I look forward to his future development.
Aside from his pushback foot switching, it's the same position because he was already protecting the QB's blindside the same way he was in college.
He played right tackle in high school. He’s only ever played right tackle. It’s a different position.
I am shocked at how good Wills has been and he has been about average. Switching positions with no off-season camps while being a rookie is difficult and he has done it pretty seamlessly. I look forward to his future development.
Aside from his pushback foot switching, it's the same position because he was already protecting the QB's blindside the same way he was in college.
Being the QB's blindside doesn't impact much for him.
As you mentioned, the left foot is now the drop step, but also his left hand is in the dirt.
In some ways, the run blocking might be harder to adjust.
I am shocked at how good Wills has been and he has been about average. Switching positions with no off-season camps while being a rookie is difficult and he has done it pretty seamlessly. I look forward to his future development.
Aside from his pushback foot switching, it's the same position because he was already protecting the QB's blindside the same way he was in college.
He played right tackle in high school. He’s only ever played right tackle. It’s a different position.
Clearly, preconceived notions are changing in the NFL. This is no different.
I am shocked at how good Wills has been and he has been about average. Switching positions with no off-season camps while being a rookie is difficult and he has done it pretty seamlessly. I look forward to his future development.
Aside from his pushback foot switching, it's the same position because he was already protecting the QB's blindside the same way he was in college.
He played right tackle in high school. He’s only ever played right tackle. It’s a different position.
Clearly, preconceived notions are changing in the NFL. This is no different.
That's what I was getting at. The reason the LT was such a coveted position, was because it protected the blind side of the QB. He was already doing that.
Now that teams finally move their best DE around, this will matter even less.
If I am playing chess I would always line my best player up against their worst. Coaches never considered doing that. Not sure why?
Just an incredible success in a tougher-than-normal year. I agree, mac. Coach gets a dose of praise because this group is clicking depending on the mix. Willis is figuring it out, and Callahan is right there as well.
Awesome, our line is looking like it might be the best we've seen in quite a while, and that's saying something cuz at one point we had Thomas, Bitonio, Mack and Schwartz
He explains it as 2019 he was a backup training at multiple positions on a new team and system. 2020 he was the incumbent RG. He trained and prepared for 1 position knowing the tendencies of LG & C, and a really good OL coach.
Turning out to be a great pick and worthy of a top 10 selection
*It's always a risk* BUT with Bill Callahan on board, with Joe Thomas giving his recommendation before the draft ... with PFF grades ... I was very comfortable with the pick. Happy we didn't get Andrew Thomas who I had thought was the #1 and who has since struggled, and even though I know Becton has played well, I just think his size has to carry long term injury risk.
Hard for me to get stoked about him after years of being spoiled by Joe T. But you have to give the kid props, you barely hear his name on Sundays or linked to any negative talk about the line. We may have a few Pro Bowlers on this line this year.
Hard for me to get stoked about him after years of being spoiled by Joe T. But you have to give the kid props, you barely hear his name on Sundays or linked to any negative talk about the line. We may have a few Pro Bowlers on this line this year.
MAN ! Give the dude a break !! Rookie vs recent gold standard for Left Tackles and a pro-bowler!! Ouch. Harsh man, so harsh!!
At the end of the day, I love our line. They are the cornerstone of our offense, as a unit (as well as many individuals) are best in the league. Wills is overachieving as well as still being mostly potential, Teller is our diamond in the rough, Tretter and Bitonio being our vets, and Conklin our mercenary. Also included is a healthy dose of Hubbard as a 6th lineman, when called (he's very underrated in this role).
But we're not going to get much out of this thread if it's only praise, so here is my criticism and I'd love to hear what people think.
How come, for as great of an Oline as we have, do we seem to struggle as much as we do pounding the ball in in short yardage situations? Are we more of a finesse line and lack the power in those situations?
I think one of the problems to compound that is that we go up against a fairly aggressive or stout DL, combined with the fact that teams are stacking the box against us.
That's an area where Mayfield needs to step up and keep the D honest. He didn't do so against the Ravens and the Steelers. His receiving corp let him down against the Raiders. At some point, he will need to be able to pull off a passing attack against a good team's aggressive defense if he wants to be part of the upper echelon of QBs in the league.
On the other hand, our interior DL was manhandled by the Raiders. Worried that they will experience that same struggle against the Titans, who also have a RB who is far more talented.
There won't be the opportunity to cover up mishaps against the Titans like there were against the Eagles or the Jags. Worried about this game.
Cleveland Browns’ Who Made PFF’s All-Pro Team Thus Far
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BrandonLittle 10 hours ago
The season is three fourths of the way through in 2020. There is a good idea of who has playoff aspirations and who the best players have been this season. Pro Football Focus put out a list of players who would be all-pro if the season ended now. PFF put out two teams that included four members of the Cleveland Browns.
First Team
Joel Bitonio is PFF’s first team left guard, with Ali Marpet coming right behind him. A lot of times if you don’t hear about an offensive line during the game, it’s because he is doing work. Many times you will hear their name when they give up a sack or just flat out aren’t playing well. Bitonio is playing some of his best football and has been consistent at that. With a PFF grade over 84, Bitonio is actually at his best mark in his career according to Pro Football Focus. Sighted for his improved run blocking game, Bitonio is the first of multiple linemen on this list.
0:22 / 0:29
Jack Conklin was the prized offseason signing for the Cleveland Browns. Leaving the Tennessee Titans, who he will play this week has done him some good. Conklin has allowed just one sack this season. Working with an 82 grade on PFF, Conklin is playing his best football at a very important time for the Browns. Conklin has battled some injury, still having his best season to date according to PFF’s data. Another part of potentially the league’s best unit in the trenches.
Second Team
Wyatt Teller is blooming right in front of their eyes. Teller has always had the talent, he’s just had to put it together. Their may not be a better pulling guard in the league, Teller still has work to do in the pass game. Teller has the best grade for a right guard at 93.9. Zack Martin is ahead of him, but that won’t last with the time that Martin is going to miss. In fact, according to PFF - Martin was only ahead to due to the games that Teller missed. Teller has helped transform the Browns offensive line and will be due for a payday before long. May very well end up all-pro.
0:15 / 0:29
Myles Garrett has 10 sacks on the season and hasn’t played in the last two games, still remains tied for the most in the league. Garrett will end the season with at least 15 sacks if he can remain on the field, which he will be back against the Titans this week. An 86.6 grade has Garrett as a second team member behind Khalil Mack and his 91.6 grade. Mack has three less sacks and two less forced fumbles. Garrett will undoubtedly be all-pro as long as he finishes the season strong, every sign points to him doing just that. If it was not for the games that Garrett missed due to Covid-19, he may have been the front runner for DPOY. He still has to be in that talk for how much he has changed games, by himself.
Cleveland will likely have a couple players all-pro at the end of the year and as it shows, it will come in the trenches. Cleveland is very good in the trenches on both sides when healthy, the last few games will give them a chance to show just how good they are.
I can honestly say I've never noticed Njoku actually blocking before. I need to watch him closer, now.
If he's doing this and can get his hands more consistent, then he'll have become what his potential always said he could.
I think he is trying a lot harder this year, still saw him get tossed aside by Schobert...he ends up the ground I think more than anyone...Then again his forte has never been as a blocker. But least he's not completely whiffing. He has crazy long arms, which should help him keep the defenders out of his chest...But he seems to allow the defenders in rather easy. I will say his effort is better than years effort and he staying with it.
I can honestly say I've never noticed Njoku actually blocking before. I need to watch him closer, now.
If he's doing this and can get his hands more consistent, then he'll have become what his potential always said he could.
Njoku! Has (some of) the most consistent hands on the team they just never throw to him!
His Hands, are his biggest asset, better than his speed, his yac ability, or jukedness to create separation. The only thing that surpasses his excellent hands is his awesome Touchdown to catch ratio.
Just about every time they throw it to him, he catchtes it, and just about every 2nd or 3rd time it's a touchdown catch.
The only problem with Njoku, is we don't see him more often, and maybe abilitiy to keep from getting injured.
Can you imagine these guys getting a full offseason to work together? A full camp I mean. OTAs and the whole shabang. Timing and repetition is what makes this type of offense better.
I am kind of curious how Lamm is developing with Callahan. To build a stable line that lasts for years, you got to develop guys who are backups. Continue to draft Oline studs, and grow them in the system. Pittsburgh has been doing this for years.
We have not kept the same offensive and defensive systems for years. Time to latch on to one and keep it no matter who the coaches are. Create the Browns system, just as the Steelers do. It makes drafting and developing players much easier.
You've been watching a different Njoku. The one you're describing sounds more like K2. The one the rest of us have seen is more like Quincy Morgan. The only thing consistent about his hands is his inconsistency.
I can honestly say I've never noticed Njoku actually blocking before. I need to watch him closer, now.
If he's doing this and can get his hands more consistent, then he'll have become what his potential always said he could.
I think he is trying a lot harder this year, still saw him get tossed aside by Schobert...he ends up the ground I think more than anyone...Then again his forte has never been as a blocker. But least he's not completely whiffing. He has crazy long arms, which should help him keep the defenders out of his chest...But he seems to allow the defenders in rather easy. I will say his effort is better than years effort and he staying with it.
I don't think Njoku has or is ever going to have the body mechanics to become a good blocker. Here's what I mean:
The bulk of my personal sports history was wrestling. Wrestling is obviously about strength and leverage (among other things) but it is also about being able to position your body to make yourself 'heavier'. You can achieve that by being able to lower your center of gravity.
Well what's Njoku's background? He's a champion high jumper right? Something like 6 feet plus? Everything his body is tuned for is raising his center of gravity in order to get that extra height.
Njoku has always seemed 'light' to me. He has a thin waist and hips. Watch when he gets tackled. All it takes is for a LB to get 1 arm around his waist and he easily turns his hips which brings him down. When you put a guy with a higher center of gravity and long arms against a DE, LB, or even DB.. all positions that use a lower center of gravity for leverage, its pretty easy to see why they can shed his blocks so easy.
During today's game, they showed a picture of the headshots of the Browns OL. If you just looked at the pictures and tried to decide, as a DL, which one not to face, it would not be hard. Teller's neck is about 1 1/2 the thickness of the others. He looks like someone who could shove a house off its foundation if he wanted to, lol
I would like to thank Wyatt teller for busting his butt in a very difficult off season to be ready to play and then going out and playing at a pro bowl level. Great job Wyatt!!!!
During today's game, they showed a picture of the headshots of the Browns OL. If you just looked at the pictures and tried to decide, as a DL, which one not to face, it would not be hard. Teller's neck is about 1 1/2 the thickness of the others. He looks like someone who could shove a house off its foundation if he wanted to, lol
There was a run in the first half , i believe it was the chubb 12 yardish when off right side, Teller was holding his block and as soon as chubb got on his hip he was like ok, enough of this and took that DL and just tossed him like a punter and got out and started blocking downfield..i was like damn. Of all the hires we had in the offseason, Callahan was probably the best
During today's game, they showed a picture of the headshots of the Browns OL. If you just looked at the pictures and tried to decide, as a DL, which one not to face, it would not be hard. Teller's neck is about 1 1/2 the thickness of the others. He looks like someone who could shove a house off its foundation if he wanted to, lol
There was a run in the first half , i believe it was the chubb 12 yardish when off right side, Teller was holding his block and as soon as chubb got on his hip he was like ok, enough of this and took that DL and just tossed him like a punter and got out and started blocking downfield..i was like damn. Of all the hires we had in the offseason, Callahan was probably the best
During today's game, they showed a picture of the headshots of the Browns OL. If you just looked at the pictures and tried to decide, as a DL, which one not to face, it would not be hard. Teller's neck is about 1 1/2 the thickness of the others. He looks like someone who could shove a house off its foundation if he wanted to, lol
There was a run in the first half , i believe it was the chubb 12 yardish when off right side, Teller was holding his block and as soon as chubb got on his hip he was like ok, enough of this and took that DL and just tossed him like a punter and got out and started blocking downfield..i was like damn. Of all the hires we had in the offseason, Callahan was probably the best
hey we're all feeling good about Wills over Thomas and Wirfs, right?
Yeah, I'd say you can use ink to write that he is the best OT from that class. I just hope he's ok after the game last night. I can't even recall if he went back in.
I always figured that he would make the change from RT to LT and be good but I have been pleasantly surprised with how fast he seems to have made the adjustments.
CLEVELAND — The Cleveland Browns are no stranger to injuries this season, especially at right guard. On Sunday night as the Browns took on the New York Giants, they did so with versatile offensive lineman Chris Hubbard filling in for right guard Wyatt Teller, who was ruled out Friday with an ankle injury.
In the first quarter, however, Hubbard sustained a knee injury and was sidelined for the remainder of the game. With their backup right guard unable to play, the Browns called upon rookie center Nick Harris to fill in.
In prime-time, Harris took his first real snaps as a Cleveland Brown, and he did so out of his usual position, which is a testament to his talent, his position coach, Cleveland’s ability to develop young players and the “next man up” mentality the team has embraced this season.
Back to his roots Before Sunday’s game, Harris had taken just one snap for the Browns on offense this season, at center. By the time Cleveland had its 10th victory, Harris had a season total of 63 snaps.
Filling in at right guard was a big ask for Harris, who was drafted as a center out of Washington this year. And although he is a center, Sunday night wasn’t his first time playing at right guard.
Harris began his college football career at Washington playing at both left and right guard. He earned his first start for the Huskies at left guard and played in meaningful games at both positions that year, including starting at right guard in the 2016 Pac-12 championship game and in the 2016 Peach Bowl.
After his freshman year, Harris continued to play right guard, earning Academic All-Pac-12 honorable mention, honorable mention All-Pac-12 and was named the coaches’ lineman of the game against Utah.
Harris shifted to center his junior year and played the position the rest of his time at Washington.
Although he had no NFL experience at right guard, Harris was familiar with the position and played it well in college, and the Browns trusted him to bring those skills they needed it most.
Shaped by Bill Callahan Throughout the season, head coach Kevin Stefanski, players and even general manager Andrew Berry have all sung the praises of offensive line coach Bill Callahan—and for good reason.
“I think that [the offensive line] has been outstanding. I can’t say this enough, but I would also like to throw in, in terms of additions, Bill Callahan into that group. I can’t overstate his impact on that position group. It is going to be a part of our DNA. That is a group that we want to make sure is strong and deep for the long term because it really does set a foundation for your offense,” Berry said in November.
Yes, the Browns bolstered their o-line with talent during the offseason, but under Callahan the line has thrived with its players among the top-ranked at their respective positions.
At guard, Wyatt Teller and Joel Bitonio lead the league in PFF’s offensive grading, with Teller ranked No. 1 and Bitonio ranked No. 3. The Browns offensive line was the highest graded-group in Week 13 and had been all season, both in run blocking and pass protection.
Callahan has helped create a culture of success for the offensive line. Back in August, he had this to say of rookie Harris as he continued to work with him:
His development has been interesting, just because of the fact that he was not expected to come in and run the show. He has been impressive in the sense that he can communicate all of the various sequences of communications along the line, whether it is the point system or the call system. He can get us in and out of the protection calls that we need to make. That aspect for a young center has been really impressive. Then of course, trying to bring him up to speed with all the physical fundamental techniques at his position, it has been really challenging, but he is a guy that continues to make strides and improvement.
So far, we are really pleased, but until you get him matched up against teams like Baltimore and obviously Cincinnati, you just do not know. He has just come in there with a really good confidence about himself and nice poise, and that is refreshing for a young player. You do not have to worry about him not being able to get up to the line and ID the front or make the right call. He is still learning of course – he is not there yet – but he has really, really made tremendous strides, especially for that position. For a guy to come in and do that, I have been fortunate to have a couple of guys like that in my past, and he has kind of run that same type of flow in terms of communication so that is great to see. Callahan and the team have been working to perfect Harris, but ready or not, on what is a very good Browns offensive line, he was called upon to fill in at right guard—a task Stefanski said he wasn’t surprised with his ability to do.
“I know Nick is going to battle. I am not surprised. I have not watched the tape, but I am not surprised that he can go in there and battle and fight. He is a very smart player, being able to play center and guard for us. Not surprised that he is ready to go when we need him,” Stefanski said after Sunday’s game. “Have to look at the tape to give you a full evaluation, but really pleased with where Nick is as a player. He is continuing to develop and works very, very hard with Coach Callahan and [assistant offensive line] Coach [Scott] Peters.”
The tape might show some flaws and missteps, sure. But with Harris on the line, quarterback Baker Mayfield was only sacked once, early in the third quarter. Cleveland may have taken it easy on the rookie by moving the run game through the left side of the line primarily, but he was able to hold his own in a high-pressure situation.
Efforts appreciated As Stefanski praised the efforts of Harris after Sunday night’s game, so did some of his fellow teammates.
Mayfield said that it’s hard to see a teammate go down, especially one as versatile as Hubbard, but raved about the efforts Harris gave while filling in.
“The way Nick Harris stepped up and played guard, he is our backup center, and for him to be able to step up and play a different position is tremendous. Hats off to him for mentally being ready and being able to come out there and play well,” Mayfield said after the game.
While he got love from his quarterback, the rookie drew the highest praise from wide receiver Jarvis Landry Sunday night.
“Listen, the first person I went to after the game – I know he is going to get interviewed after I say it this week – is him. Just giving him the praise and respect because he is a center. I do not know how much guard he has played in his life, but he stepped up, stepped in and did what he had to do. The offense continued to flow as is. That was something that was very special,” Landry said following the game.
“I went to him after the game and told him, ‘I appreciate you. I appreciate the way you work. I appreciate the way that you can step into a role that you maybe weren’t prepared for and still be able to get the job done.’ It speaks volumes about this kid. It speaks volumes about Andrew Berry being able to draft this guy, who is as versatile as he is and can come in and make these plays and do the assignments that we need to have successful plays and win the football game.”
Landry said he had never seen Harris play at guard before.
“It is like, ‘Wait, this rookie came in the first quarter, played the whole game and did what he had to do. He kicked ass.’ That is something that does not go unnoticed. I just wanted to let him know that personally that I was proud of the way he came out and did what he had to do for the team,” Landry said.
Self-evaluation On Monday, Harris said that he was excited to get out on the field and felt good to be out there under the prime-time lights.
"It was fun. It was good to get back on the field and play a football game. I haven't played an actual game in awhile. So it felt good to get out there and run around and just try to play my brand of football," Harris said. "I think I did okay. There's a lot to clean up. I want to be the best, so I'm going to watch the film and see where I can get better and see how I can help the team and just go from there."
Harris said that he's prepared for his moment all season, and now that it's here, he wants to be ready for it.
"I go into every game as if I'm going to play. That's how you have to do it," Harris said. "I make sure I go over center and guard things and just make sure if my name is called that I'm ready to go assignment wise."
The rookie said he gets reps on the scout team at guard and he believes the extra work he puts in with Callahan and Peters paid off Sunday night.
"I just have to get my feet wet a little bit and play how I play, but I felt comfortable, and as the weeks go by and I get more reps it'll feel even better," Harris said. "I'm just grateful to have this opportunity. Just trying to build off it and trying be the best player and best version of myself I can be. With that, I have to go in this week and get better—go try and fix what I did wrong and build off that."
The praise Harris received from his coach and teammates was well deserved. With Hubbard out for "significant time" and Teller still dealing with an ankle injury, there’s a good chance Sunday night wasn’t the last time Harris will play a big role and he should be a guy fans keep their eye on as he continues to develop into something special for the Cleveland Browns.
Judging the quality of any NFL team's draft can take years to judge as coaches wait to see those who were drafted perform on the field.
The draft class of 2020 looks to be "very good" as all but one of the players drafted by the Browns have performed on the field and have developed into quality starters and backups, top to bottom.
The only player not to see the field was 2nd pick Grant Delpit, the Safety out of LSU. He suffered an achilles tendon injury in training camp. Hopefully Delpit will recover well enough to contribute in 2021...then we can give a final grade on the 2020 draft.
After watching Nick Harris fill in and play well against the Giants, I feel much better about the depth on our OLine and the overall quality of the 2020 draft.
Early returns are good; get back to me when we are nearing the end of the 2022 season, however.
We've had oodles of drafts where guys have contributed only for them to get washed over the following year. Granted, this has historically been a case where guys contribute out of a sheer lack of other options, and they get washed over due to internal turmoil, turnover, instability, changes in scheme, etc...... BUT, it is nothing new.
That said, this group does look different. DPJ is contributing in a pretty solid WR room. Bryant is contributing in a fairly stacked TE room. Harris looked like he belongs there with the best OLine in football, and so does Wills. That right there is enough solid hits to make this draft a homerun, I think.
Phillips, until further evaluation, is definitely there because we have nothing else. I can't say that I've even seen Elliot on the field. We need to see a good bit more from both. Delpit is a total TBD.
So, interestingly, our offensive players chosen are solid and contributing on our stacked unit. Our defensive players - fighting for time or unable to see the field on our weakest unit - are the question marks.
Can Tretter play guard? I was just thinking about Nick Harris in his normal position at center ( where he look decent in training camp) and Tretter at LG? I guess that could weaken two positions.
Give Callahan a 100% pay raise and sign him through his retirement.
And the best thing about Callahan is that he's 64, he's done the OC and HC thing in the past and I think he would be perfectly happy being an OL coach until he decides to retire, which hopefully isn't for 5 or 6 more years.
On CBD Zagura was telling a sideline story about Dunn. Apparently after he came off the field from his injury, he tried to stretch and walk it out. He thought he was good to go and started to sub himself back in. He gets about 5yrds and realizes his leg isn't going to get him there and freezes for a moment. The sideline starts yelling at him and he hops one footed back off and dives to get off the field on time LOL
Give Callahan a 100% pay raise and sign him through his retirement.
And the best thing about Callahan is that he's 64, he's done the OC and HC thing in the past and I think he would be perfectly happy being an OL coach until he decides to retire, which hopefully isn't for 5 or 6 more years.
Concerning the entire coaching staff, Stefanski should identify those coaches he feels must be retained, then it is up to management and the owners to make it happen.
Pay whatever it takes to retain coaches and protect coaches by promoting and upgrading their title as necessary..for example Callahan could be promoted to assistant OC/OL coach, if necessary.
It must be a high priority to focus on retaining the coaching staff that Stefanski wants.
JMHO, young coaches looking to learn, move up EVENTUALLY- Callahan doesn't need "titles", probably doesn't need money- being part of something, work environment, being appreciated and number one- teaching is what he wants to do.....he'll stay even with a pay cut- won't happen. Coach S has got "it". Go Browns!!!!!
It is real, is good, is professional, is smart, is demanding, is prepared....he's all those things and more.....A WINNER even when he loses.
This is one of the few NFL coaches that I would ask him what makes him happy and what does he want. He has been a miracle worker, especially with the likes of Teller. Keep him. There are some people whose footprints you want to have left behind in your culture's legacy. Coach Stef may be one, Huey was not. I think the impact of this coach could easily be neglected oe missed. But his influence is felt every snap. Go, Browns!
Give Callahan a 100% pay raise and sign him through his retirement.
Yeah give him that asst. HC title as well!
Callahan would reply reply like a grumpy old man... "What? Give it to a young buck! What, do you think I'm trying to round out my resume?! Go away, I have work to do."
Give Callahan a 100% pay raise and sign him through his retirement.
Yeah give him that asst. HC title as well!
Callahan would reply reply like a grumpy old man... "What? Give it to a young buck! What, do you think I'm trying to round out my resume?! Go away, I have work to do."
He occupies the office next to KS's. He's the assistant HC whether he holds the title or not. I suspect the title was offered, and he declined.
If you accept a title like that, you eliminate potential options due to the lateral move clause. If you stay OL coach, you can negotiate with other teams at any time for an asst HC or coordinator position.
If you accept a title like that, you eliminate potential options due to the lateral move clause. If you stay OL coach, you can negotiate with other teams at any time for an asst HC or coordinator position.
jfan...part of the reason I made this post, above...
....."Concerning the entire coaching staff, Stefanski should identify those coaches he feels must be retained, then it is up to management and the owners to make it happen.
Pay whatever it takes to retain coaches and protect coaches by promoting and upgrading their title as necessary..for example Callahan could be promoted to assistant OC/OL coach, if necessary.
It must be a high priority to focus on retaining the coaching staff that Stefanski wants.
unless things have changed since I last read the CBA, and that is entirely probable, all coaching positions except Head Coach are the same level. So, even as OLine coach, he still cannot interview for anything lower than Head Coach without our permission. We do NOT have to grant those interviews. The Assitant Head Coach title puts him at HC level and then our permission is needed even if he were offered a HC interview.
but, it's all moot.... Pay the Man, and if he doesn't want to be here, he isn't going to be here; and shouldn't be. Pay him well and if he is happy, he will stay forever.... until we have a regime change, which is hopefully not until long after he has retired.
unless things have changed since I last read the CBA, and that is entirely probable, all coaching positions except Head Coach are the same level. So, even as OLine coach, he still cannot interview for anything lower than Head Coach without our permission. We do NOT have to grant those interviews. The Assitant Head Coach title puts him at HC level and then our permission is needed even if he were offered a HC interview.
The above is 100% correct. We go over this every year because we are always hiring new coaches. Somehow that isn’t what we are talking about and we are worried about our own coaches getting poached.
but, it's all moot.... Pay the Man, and if he doesn't want to be here, he isn't going to be here; and shouldn't be. Pay him well and if he is happy, he will stay forever.... until we have a regime change, which is hopefully not until long after he has retired.
For me, this is key. But here's the cool thing that most Dawgs are probably still grappling with:
all of a sudden, CLE is a place where people are happy to be.
playoff team good professional atmosphere with no soap opera drama motivated players
Shoot- you're gonna give me a pay raise to stick around and see what we can make of this team for another 2-3 years? Sign me up.
I think the Factory of Sadness has been outsourced to another city.
unless things have changed since I last read the CBA, and that is entirely probable, all coaching positions except Head Coach are the same level. So, even as OLine coach, he still cannot interview for anything lower than Head Coach without our permission. We do NOT have to grant those interviews. The Assitant Head Coach title puts him at HC level and then our permission is needed even if he were offered a HC interview.
The above is 100% correct. We go over this every year because we are always hiring new coaches. Somehow that isn’t what we are talking about and we are worried about our own coaches getting poached.
I don't think we have to worry. I get the impression Callahan is right where he wants to be. He's 64. He was a head coach for the Raiders in 2002 and 2003 but ended up being fired. He went on to HC Nebraska for 4 years. Again he was fired. He went back to the NFL where he has been a positions coach ever since, except 4 games as interim HC for Washington a the end of last year.
I believe he has found his level, and he's happy there. He knows the pressures of the HC and that makes him a great resource for KS, but he likes being a coach. And he's a darned good one.
Covid = having your girlfriend call out coverages in an apartment parking lot to get ready for the big game.
When asked about getting thrown into the mix after being on the practice squad all year...
“Joel is one of the best — if not the best — guards in the NFL, and he’s a great person, too, so my honest thoughts when I found out (that Bitonio had tested positive) were all about hoping that Joel was OK and that everyone in his family was healthy,” Dunn said. “It was later that day that (assistant offensive-line coach Scott) Peters called and we went over some things with the game plan and techniques, and then I sort of started thinking about starting.
“I felt prepared. I felt confident because our coaches and my teammates were 100 percent supportive. It was very calming knowing that I’d be playing next to a guy like (center) J.C. Tretter, who basically knows everything about every play and what every single guy is supposed to be doing. I talked to Joel every day about what I was supposed to be seeing. I started to get nervous when the plane landed in Pittsburgh Saturday night, and then it really hit me before we took the field, but I really felt as prepared as I could be.”
How can you not love and have confidence in this team? This question will be answered in the gameday thread when we hear about how much so and so sucks and someone whining "that's game" after every negative play.
Last year, the majority of people thought the top three things wrong with the Browns were Baker, Freddie, and the offensive line. Many thought Baker was the clear issue above the other two.
Change 60% of the starting line and replace the coach. Seems like Baker was not the main problem.
Last year, the majority of people thought the top three things wrong with the Browns were Baker, Freddie, and the offensive line. Many thought Baker was the clear issue above the other two.
Change 60% of the starting line and replace the coach. Seems like Baker was not the main problem.
I dunno, I think we changed quite a bit at the QB position... just without changing the person.
Last year, the majority of people thought the top three things wrong with the Browns were Baker, Freddie, and the offensive line. Many thought Baker was the clear issue above the other two.
Change 60% of the starting line and replace the coach. Seems like Baker was not the main problem.
er...not to nit-pic, but they changed 40% of the starting line. Teller replaced Kush mid-season 2019, and has been the starting RG ever since. It's just the improvement in his performance that makes him seem like a whole different player.
Now that I see the kind of depth this roster has for OL I would not use 1 draft pick there. That's an additional LB or DB I hope we draft instead.
Non-starters who have contributed: Hubbard Harris Dunn Hance Lamm Then we have Forbes and a developmental T, Alex Taylor.
I think I could agree with that but there are two factors that could change that.
1. I am not sure of the contract status of the current starters. I think Conklin is signed through next year. If we can't extend him at this point, I might lean towards looking at adding a RT in the mid rounds. We have multiple picks...I think in both the 3rd and 4th rounds we have 2 picks in each. Maybe it's 4th and 5th.
2. I also think we can't just make the blanket statement about not selecting a OL in the draft because we don't know who might be there. I wouldn't want to pass on a O-lineman who is clearly a superior talent just to add a lesser player at a position of need.
As we have seen, the injury bug is real. It never hurts to have good players on your team.
unless things have changed since I last read the CBA, and that is entirely probable, all coaching positions except Head Coach are the same level. So, even as OLine coach, he still cannot interview for anything lower than Head Coach without our permission. We do NOT have to grant those interviews. The Assitant Head Coach title puts him at HC level and then our permission is needed even if he were offered a HC interview.
The above is 100% correct. We go over this every year because we are always hiring new coaches. Somehow that isn’t what we are talking about and we are worried about our own coaches getting poached.
yep....I don't understand why people don't understand that by now. You don't need to give them titles to keep them on the team if the team chooses.
The only way a team can't deny a assistant coach from interviewing is if the interview is for head coach.
Now that I see the kind of depth this roster has for OL I would not use 1 draft pick there. That's an additional LB or DB I hope we draft instead.
Non-starters who have contributed: Hubbard Harris Dunn Hance Lamm Then we have Forbes and a developmental T, Alex Taylor.
peen...something I've been impressed with is the OLine coaching staff's ability to take guys like listed in guard's post (quoted above) and coach them up to step in and contribute.
I'm not so sure the Browns will need to spend draft picks on the OLine.
Concerning the "injury bug"...the lack of practice time is a contributing factor. To stress muscles, tendons and ligaments into playing condition the OLinemen have practice at "full go".
The covid makes it necessary to limit the amount of physical contact our players are subjected to.
Worth a re-post since we're almost a year in. To the outside world, this is probably the best kept secret to our success this year. In our world, well, we know...
Bill Callahan named Browns offensive line coach Jan 31, 2020 at 12:20 PM Andrew Gribble Senior Staff Writer
There's a purpose behind the location of Bill Callahan's office in Berea. The Browns' new offensive line coach shares a wall with Kevin Stefanski, who is embarking on his first season as a head coach.
Callahan, entering his 45th year of coaching (22nd in the NFL), has been in Stefanski's position before, both at the college and professional level. Just last year, he served as the interim head coach of the Washington Redskins, filling that role for the final 11 games of the 2019 season. That kind of experience was deemed invaluable to Stefanski as he continues to shape his coaching staff.
"I can't do this thing alone," Stefanski said. "I know that, so I need really good people around me. To have somebody in the office next to me who's been a head coach in college, a head coach in the pros, has seen a lot of the obstacles that come up in the course of a day for a head coach is huge. I can pop in next door and ask him his opinion on a bunch of things and that can inform my decisions moving forward on things big and small."
Callahan said he relishes the opportunity to serve as a "sounding board" for Stefanski, a coach he's admired from afar who shares a number of mutual friends and acquaintances with Callahan, including former Vikings head coach Brad Childress.
Childress and Callahan simultaneously got their coaching careers off the ground at the University of Illinois in the early 1980s. Decades later, Childress gave Stefanski his first full-time opportunity in the NFL, making him the assistant to the head coach.
"It's so interesting how this developed," said Callahan, who was the head coach with the Oakland Raiders from 2002-03 and the University of Nebraska from 2004-07. "I can see how Brad hired Kevin and wanted him to be a part of the organization when he was with the Vikings. I understand how his role played out and what he did with that opportunity. He's only grown and excelled in that. I'm just very fortunate to be a part of it and those acquaintances and relationships that coaches need at times when you're trying to help somebody."
A smile crosses Callahan's face when he's asked about his biggest responsibility with the Browns.
The former quarterback at Illinois Benedictine College has coached a variety of position groups and players throughout his career, but none has been more impactful toward his rise up the ranks than the work he's done with offensive linemen. Dating back to 1995, when he took the reins as the Philadelphia Eagles' offensive line coach, Callahan has been an offensive line coach for a combined 15 years with four different NFL teams (Eagles, Jets, Cowboys, Redskins). In that time, he's helped 12 players combine for 29 Pro Bowl selections.
"I love everything about it," Callahan said. "I love the players, and they're unique because they're so selfless. They're like a team within a team. Everything that goes on is an extension of everybody, so nothing good can happen unless they perform well. There's a burden. There's a challenge. There's a responsibility to do great things. There's the fun of bringing and developing a lineman from the time that he's a young player through his infancy in the NFL to helping them achieve a Pro Bowl status … It's great to see that type of development in a player. That's what I enjoy coaching the most. To see that improvement. To see guys have success."
From a schematic standpoint, Callahan has seen it all in his 45 years of coaching, so adapting to what the Browns plan to install won't be anything he hasn't seen before. The one constant has been his ability to "match the scheme to his personnel," Stefanski said.
"I've always thought the world of him as a coach. His reputation precedes him," Stefanski said. "He coaches his guys hard, he's fair, he's a disciplinarian, he's a teacher. I think he's able to do all those things and he's a man of high, high integrity."
If the recommendations he received from those close to Stefanski were what lured Callahan to Cleveland, it was the proud history of the Browns franchise that sealed the deal.
"The Cleveland Browns organization historically is one of the richest in football. The tradition and what it stands for, it means a lot to me," Callahan said. "Growing up as a coach, I was a West Coast Offense advocate and read all the information and stories about Paul Brown and Bill Walsh and how it arrived with Cleveland. That was always appealing to me and interesting as well and helped me as a coach.
"I was in Philadelphia when I first came into the league. There was a general manager there by the name of John Wooten. He'd shared a lot of his thoughts and feelings about the organization and his playing days here in Cleveland. It resonated with me on a lot of different levels."
Bill Callahan's Coaching Background: 1978: Oak Lawn High School, assistant coach 1979: De La Salle High School, assistant coach 1980-81: University of Illinois, associate coach 1982-83: University of Illinois, special teams/tight ends coach 1984-85: University of Illinois, offensive line coach 1986: University of Illinois, quarterbacks coach 1987-88: Northern Arizona University, offensive line coach 1989: Southern Illinois University, offensive coordinator 1990-94: University of Wisconsin, offensive line coach 1995-97: Philadelphia Eagles, offensive line coach 1998: Oakland Raiders, offensive coordinator/tight ends coach 1999-2001: Oakland Raiders, offensive coordinator/offensive line coach 2002-03: Oakland Raiders, head coach 2004-07: University of Nebraska, head coach 2008-11: New York Jets, assistant head coach/offensive line coach 2012-14: Dallas Cowboys, offensive coordinator/offensive line coach 2015-16: Washington Redskins, offensive line coach 2017-19: Washington Redskins, assistant head coach/offensive line coach 2019: Washington Redskins, interim head coach (final 11 games) 2020-: Cleveland Browns, offensive line coach
I agree with you Peen. I wouldn't take drafting OL off the table completely but the talent difference would have to be very significant for me to draft OL ahead of a few other positions in the first few rounds. Maybe my faith is too strong, but I'll take an OT in round 4 and trust that Callahan can turn them into a solid contributor in a year or two.
I look at what we've been getting from Teller, Lamm, Dunn, and some guy named Blake and I'd just leave it at "In Callahan I Trust".
If Callahan wants a guy or feels strongly about a guy that is there, then get him... otherwise, go elsewhere with the pick.
Under the "old" Browns that would make too much sense for "them" to consider.
Under the "new" Browns, I bet that's exactly what they will do (within reason).
Someone already mentioned that Forbes should be back...Colby Gossett as well. Not a big name, but he's hung around even before opting out. Feels good to know that we have a guy like Callahan working with the others.
Yeah first game against NYG he came in he played really well. IIRC, Jarvis and lot of players mentioned that in their pressers. I think he struggled against NYJ a little but I feel his natural position is C. It says a lot that he came in at RG and made a good fist of it IMHO.
IS it me, or does every time Lamm play he leaves injured? In 2019, He came in to play LT in one game, and I believe he got hurt on the first play or series...and missed a bunch of time...Then in 2020, he was called up several times to play, and got hurt multiple times...I mean he does serve us well, as he can play multiple spots at a solid rate...But man, he has horrible luck with getting injured.
Imagine Wills with a full offseason work out. He is already strong, I'd like to see him hook up with Teller and do his routine. Don't know what it was, but he definitely came back bigger and stronger.
With Hubbard coming back, and Dunn and Hance, not to mention Forbes and Harris, we will have some solid depth.
The more this unit works together, the better they will be. Add in the depth, and we should be set for quite a few years. But I would still draft OLine every year, keep the cupboard full.
It's an embarrassment of riches. Hubbard, Lamm, Harris, Forbes are all backups that have stepped and played really well.
It's amazing what having the best OL coach in football will do and when he's on the same page as the OC and the play caller to put the skill position players in a position to succeed, which makes the OL look that much better.. then to top it off you put Chubb and Hunt behind them..
That's what it takes to win in this league, good people at every level on the field and off.. and we finally are seeing it.
I was leaning toward trading Hubbard to a strapped team. Get an extra draft pick and clear up the extra cap space to help with 2022 carry-over and extending Teller.
Then again, it may just be because a guy named Blake can apparently man the Tackle position in a pinch.
I was leaning toward trading Hubbard to a strapped team. Get an extra draft pick and clear up the extra cap space to help with 2022 carry-over and extending Teller.
Then again, it may just be because a guy named Blake can apparently man the Tackle position in a pinch.
Could be.. $5M/year is a lot to pay for a back-up OL... until you need them. Depends on how much confidence the staff has in some of these other guys to step up.
Wills, Bitonio, Tretter, Teller, Conklin that is our starting 5 can't see anyone breaking that.
Hubbard quite frankly I think we should let him go. I liked Lamm at RT he actually played quite well. I think he's been backing up at LT cause that is where the need was but he is actually a good functioning RT but his play goes down working at LT.
The new guy Hance I thought did a great job - One game at RG for just a few plays but the other game at the most difficult OL slot LT he did a very good job. I think he should remain here as that 6th man - able to step in at OG or OT possibly Center also. Speaking of Center don't forget Nick Harris as good replacement at Center.
People can't really know the input Tretter has with the OL I mean that guy led the OL I know Callahan gets a ton of credit but the on field Coach for the OL is Tretter. He was fantastic all year!
I was leaning toward trading Hubbard to a strapped team. Get an extra draft pick and clear up the extra cap space to help with 2022 carry-over and extending Teller.
Then again, it may just be because a guy named Blake can apparently man the Tackle position in a pinch.
Could be.. $5M/year is a lot to pay for a back-up OL... until you need them. Depends on how much confidence the staff has in some of these other guys to step up.
Hubbard is more than our primary sub. He is also the first guy to come in when we need a 6th lineman. I have no idea if that's something only he can do vs the other guys, but it's part of his role and needs to be taken into account when looking to move him off the roster.
I'd try to keep him. He's shown himself to be very valuable. Now if the coaching staff and FO feels that Dunn or Hance can fill his role fine.. They know more than I do. Also, we have Drew Forbes coming back and Nick Harris although Harris is considered a center.
I was leaning toward trading Hubbard to a strapped team. Get an extra draft pick and clear up the extra cap space to help with 2022 carry-over and extending Teller.
Then again, it may just be because a guy named Blake can apparently man the Tackle position in a pinch.
I think the odd man pout should be Lamm. I honestly didn't see him do anything to be kept. He was bad more than he was good.
Tyrann Mathieu is one of those guys I don't like because he's constantly jawing, constantly shoving around in the pile after the play, getting in WRs faces all the time...
Tyrann Mathieu is one of those guys I don't like because he's constantly jawing, constantly shoving around in the pile after the play, getting in WRs faces all the time...
But I'd take him on the Browns in a heartbeat.
We all love Chubb (never saying anything, just handing the ball to the ref, etc), but let's face it... he's the exception to the rule.
Its impressive cause its like catching a chicken...lol
And many here over rate Hubbard. Playing a position is one thing. Being successful is another. Lamm played RT better than Hubbard.
Dunn and Hance played OG better. Hubbard when in at RG was a sieve. And his play at RT was terrible. 2019 he was serviceable I guess but was one of the OTs that had PFF stating we had the worst OTs in the NFL. I saw his play in 2020 go down from that bad play in 2019.
That reminds me of something I have been thinking about.
I am not saying it will be outright retribution, but I can't help but wonder how many players who opted out around the league won't make teams next year.
They had to lose some sort of standing to other players.
I would hope it's more nuanced than that. There were guys that opted out with the extra COVID risk (IIRC, many of our guys had this). Even beyond this, I would think it would get filed under "it's a business", like most other contract-related tactics.
I would hope it's more nuanced than that. There were guys that opted out with the extra COVID risk (IIRC, many of our guys had this). Even beyond this, I would think it would get filed under "it's a business", like most other contract-related tactics.
Maybe my using the term retribution jaded the picture. It's just a word. I wasn't trying to imply some sinister plan to get back at anyone.
I don't think X's are going next to Billings and Forbes' names at this point as the team is evaluating players and position groups for next year.
Yeah we had some injuries that others took advantage of and made a good account of themselves. Forbes could have been that guy but others took over. I'm sure he had reasons for opting out at the time there was so much we didn't know about the virus.
I don't think there will be a target on his back for doing so. Just that he missed opportunities to show his stuff and others did. So in that regard he could be last man on the depth chart and a hard road to stay with the team. Not as a penalty for opting out just the way things went, I guess.
Yeah we had some injuries that others took advantage of and made a good account of themselves. Forbes could have been that guy but others took over. I'm sure he had reasons for opting out at the time there was so much we didn't know about the virus.
I don't think there will be a target on his back for doing so. Just that he missed opportunities to show his stuff and others did. So in that regard he could be last man on the depth chart and a hard road to stay with the team. Not as a penalty for opting out just the way things went, I guess.
He is definately going to have to impress them. Ain't it great they are finally building Oline depth?
In this special edition of the 2 Minute Drill, Nathan Zegura takes a look at the Browns current offensive line situation and breaks down what they did well in 2020 and what they can look forward to in 2021.
It was literally an embarrassment of riches, and I love it. For the old timers around here, going back to the early 2000's, how many discussions were had about how bad our OLines were? How long did we suffer with lines that just couldn't block anything?
It’s probably true of all teams, but we have some interesting guys back who weren’t playing last year, like Forbes on the OL. It’s almost like we have an extra draft. This team suddenly has depth everywhere.
I think Hubbard's injury combined with the draft plus guys coming back from sitting out last year (but mostly the former) means Hubbard is pretty much gone already.
I'm bummed. I was impressed how he responded to the demotion and was still able to carve out a role for himself in the offense. That's a guy you want next to you in your position group/locker room.
I think Hubbard's injury combined with the draft plus guys coming back from sitting out last year (but mostly the former) means Hubbard is pretty much gone already.
I'm bummed. I was impressed how he responded to the demotion and was still able to carve out a role for himself in the offense. That's a guy you want next to you in your position group/locker room.
No question that Hubbard is a quality man and a quality player. If it ends up that he is truly gone, I wish him well,
I agree. He seems like a good egg and is decent. With him, it is just going to boil down to numbers and if the Browns feel they have some other player who has more upside when considering the longer range view.
Mediocre players like Hubbard finally come to a point in their career where they are probably going to bounce around on 1-2 year deals. They are good enough to help many teams in the short term but aren't going to fit in to any long term plans.
If he makes the team this year, I seriously doubt he will be back for another. Just the life cycle of the "just good enough" NFL player.
In the end, I doubt he makes the team this year. If being cut is the inevitable, as a seasoned vet I hope the Browns cut ties before the last cuts. Give him some time to latch on somewhere else when some other team realizes they need to upgrade the back-up in a hurry. After the 1st pre-season game, he might bring a 7th rounder in trade. Maybe a little better.
It's a cutthroat game in that regard, but I think that because of how he responded and just kept being him is why he's still on the roster as it is. Granted, at $4.9M, his Cap Hit isn't gargantuan, but it is still a sizable chunk for a swing tackle, I think. I think because of how he handled his business, he will be given every opportunity to win the job for the year, but I don't see any way that he's brought back next year. He's a free agent in 2022.
In the end, I doubt he makes the team this year. If being cut is the inevitable, as a seasoned vet I hope the Browns cut ties before the last cuts. Give him some time to latch on somewhere else when some other team realizes they need to upgrade the back-up in a hurry. After the 1st pre-season game, he might bring a 7th rounder in trade. Maybe a little better.
He may be a good candidate for a late summer trade to a team in need. I doubt we'd get more than a 7th, maybe a 6th, and probably conditional at that, but it's a possibility.
I don't think he goes anywhere, until his contract is up. We have quality depth being built for the Oline, a luxury we haven't see for a long time. If this team wants to make a serious run at a superbowl, guys like Hubbard need to be on the roster.
Now if the rookie, who is getting unique personal coaching at the rookie camp, blossoms, and Harris is healthy, throw in a guy like Hance, and you have a solid backup plan.
I generally agree with the caveat that he's comparatively expensive. His value and ability is why he is still here, thus far, but he has to show that the value he brings warrants the money compared to the younglings. If one of the younger guys can step up and show the same or similar capability while earning less, it's - unfortunately - a no-brainer.
The great thing for Browns fans is that we have enough parts in the mix that we WILL have quality depth, barring a rash of injuries hitting the unit.
We return all five starters AND we get some depth back that could actually push some of our starters. Our OLine looks to be really, really deep this year.
We return all five starters AND we get some depth back that could actually push some of our starters. Our OLine looks to be really, really deep this year.
At first glance, But, Let's take a look.
(Now, we've all been following even from a distance, the Browns and their OL for several years, at least since 1999,)
Most Years the Browns have had a middle of the road group if looked at in total, not a top 3 group at OL. Even in Freddie Kitchens coached year, this arguably could have been the case.
In 2020-21 however, the Browns OL was stellar, the rushing totals were #1 in the league around week 4, the pundits give the Browns OL superstar ratings.
What Was different? .... long drawn out thinking, I'll try to shorten it....
It goes back a couple years, it may have started prior to 2020. 2. They suddenly went from a group of 5 starter level players year in and out, to a group of 7. 3. They hired the new OL coach. 4. They went from maybe one starter at Rb most years to two top ones.
So! actually at FIRST glance imo, the most major reason was the addition of ?a and Hubbard.
the Prior year the starters had included Ryan ?b OT, RT.
?a went to the Titans in the offseason. Recently, a first unheard of thought, that Hubbard may be too injured and will be phased out after cleared health wise seems to be more plausible.
In 2020-21, The starter group of 5 often had one injury which the group being 7 strong MASSIVELY helped it not effect gameplay, PLUS, 6 were often used for sparatic plays.
Conclusion. The Loss of what's his name, and potential loss of Hubbard which may likely happen, could prove a MASSIVE hurdle in lack of experience and vet leadership, taking over for what was experience and vet leadership.
We didn't lose any starters and our depth is improved. The ONLY debateable issue is whether or not we have someone better than Hubbard to take the role of 6th Man and, if not, is Hubbard going to be healthy enough by the start of the season.
I think it's a non-issue. First off, if our biggest worry on OLine is our first backup, we're in pretty damn good shape. Secondly, we have three young Tackles behind Hubbard... one that we picked up as an UDFA last year, one drafted this year who happens to be very similarly built to Hubbard, and Greg Senat, a 4th year player who was signed in Free Agency this spring and played 10 games for Dallas in 2020. He ain't gonna set the world on fire, but he can be a 6th Man.
I hold high opinions of both Kendall Lamms', (had to look him up), and Chris Hubbards' abilities. So the potential need to replace 2 players instead of one player to continue last years OL units' success is where we disagree. And it also depends on the health of Hubbard which is unknown.
I hold high opinions of both Kendall Lamms', (had to look him up), and Chris Hubbards' abilities. So the potential need to replace 2 players instead of one player to continue last years OL units' success is where we disagree. And it also depends on the health of Hubbard which is unknown.
I hold high opinions of both Kendall Lamms', (had to look him up), and Chris Hubbards' abilities. So the potential need to replace 2 players instead of one player to continue last years OL units' success is where we disagree. And it also depends on the health of Hubbard which is unknown.
COACH CALLEHAN
Normally in situations like this I just throw a like out there to avoid clogging up the thread, but I really feel the extra emphasis is necessary. We had guys coming in and filling in all over the place and didn't seem like we skipped a beat. Teller spent a good chunk of time out and our world didn't end. Wills left the game early vs KC and I believe his replacement was 'guy named Blake', and we didn't implode (quite the opposite... made them earn a win with some help from refs).
Thank you. Worrying about our 6th man is like fretting over the number of sprinkles on your Pop-Tart. It's not changing much, and in the end, you still have a perfectly good Pop-Tart.
Zero worries, life always has worries. Injuries, hold outs, mental health issues, covid, lots of things could cause us worries.
JMHO, signing Teller long term could or should be an issue. Analytics, do we pay a dominate guard more than a dominate runner, does money cause issues for the Browns team. I hope not but we are all human. Go Browns!!! Hope we have backups ready, anything can happen.
The reality is running back is a dime a dozen position. No doubt you have that handful of guys who command a larger contract, but after that you have a multitude of guys who are good enough, and several enter the league every year.
It's not hard to have several good running backs on your team. You can't say that about every position.
Dime a dozen for manageable progress. But Chubb is Great and quite frankly so is Hunt. I would say best duo since Pruitt and Pruitt. but in an era of passing which we will have the best play action of any team and there is nothing they can do we will kick their ass all day. Play run and we will go air...play air and we will destroy via run. Play run and we run we still kick ass...play pass and we pass we still kick ass!!!
Make no mistake in what I say. Chubb is a top 5 back, so he is one of the top guys.
My comments are about the position group in general. When you have a multitude of good players just behind the great ones it tends to devalue the group as a whole.
That is why QB's make the money they do. It's not because of the position, it is about the scarcity at the position.
Zero worries, life always has worries. Injuries, hold outs, mental health issues, covid, lots of things could cause us worries.
JMHO, signing Teller long term could or should be an issue. Analytics, do we pay a dominate guard more than a dominate runner, does money cause issues for the Browns team. I hope not but we are all human. Go Browns!!! Hope we have backups ready, anything can happen.
There are always things beyond our control but deciding whether to pay Teller or let him walk is within the teams control. That said I would talk to the man (Callahan) if he says Teller has rare and hard to find skills that he has no one to replace him with that would play a huge roll in if I let Teller walk of not.
The fact that the Browns aren't making any noise about Teller reminds me of the same situation we had with Schobert. I could be wrong here because I haven't a clue on the Browns position but it looks to me like they are ready to let Teller walk?
Not all regimes are the same. Trying to compare how one regime handles dealing with a player concerning a contract in no way gives us insight to how a different regime does it.
I didn't here a lot from this regime about re-signing Chubb before his contract was announced. I don't hear any talk from the team now about addressing signing Mayfield to a contract extension either. I think you are trying to reach a conclusion based on the acts of a totally different set of people for the most part.
I know they have asked Berry about contracts and he is pretty closed mouth about it, point taken. I just don't see them making the kinds of statements you would get when they have every intent of re-signing the player. Or perhaps I believe I would let Teller walk and so I let that influence my comments?
I still think he will go the way of Schobert? Does that MAKE me right? HELL NO.
Berry wasn't in his current role at the time. Now he calls the shots. He didn't then. I'll refer back to the silence we heard regarding Chubb before he signed his new deal.
I believe you are right. Some of our guys need to walk, can't pay them all. We have him this year, hope he stays dedicated and we make SB. There is a huge pot of money, yet, not enough to pay all....GO Browns!!!
I have a question for you all about Wills...are we possibly overconfident in his ability to anchor that LT position?
I'm not worried at this point, but his comments on needing to play better this year, along with getting beat quite a bit in that Giants practice(or so I've read) just had me wondering if his name should be in mental pencil vs. pen at this point.
He's on a wonky ankle right now. I wouldn't read too much into his performance with that going on.... I'm more worried about that thing healing up in time for week1.
I have a question for you all about Wills...are we possibly overconfident in his ability to anchor that LT position?
I'm not worried at this point, but his comments on needing to play better this year, along with getting beat quite a bit in that Giants practice(or so I've read) just had me wondering if his name should be in mental pencil vs. pen at this point.
Last year, rookie season, switching from right to left.. he was still rated 19th... Is that normally a 1st rounder.. no. We are used to Joe Thomas..
By his own admission, he didn't play well.. Let's see what happens this year.. He only allowed 4 sacks last year, so he's probably not going to get Baker killed.. Lets let it play out...
lol
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