That really blows.

I know the narrative will be about how Baker will be better without the need to focus on getting OBJ the ball, since he was the "problem", but we got weaker as a team. This is bad.

Yup. That play that won us the Cowboy game, we don’t have that anymore.

Tough break

Hate to hear this.

It hurts the team.

Injury hits most teams. By the end of the season roster depth plays a huge role for all teams.

Odell is a big time talent. Others will have to step in and take the load.

When looking at yesterdays game. Njoku filled for Hooper. Bryant made plays.

DPJ and Higgins made the plays in "the last drive."

We will need them all.

That really sucks. Hope he recovers well.

Personally I don't buy it. OBJ is a talent. The more talent you have the better. If Baker (and KS) had a talent at his disposal and couldn't figure the best way to utilize it, that's a Baker (and KS) issue not a OBJ issue. We saw games where it all came together - too bad we won't get more opportunities this season.

Hoping he has a full recovery. Injuries have been ravaging in the NFL this year (and every year obviously). No fun for a player to endure

This stinks but we expected it. It's time for our other guys to step up like they did yesterday. Now they have to do it over the next 9 games. Get well OBJ. WE love you and are glad you are a Cleveland Brown!!!

Damn...Was hoping for a sprain, hopefully he makes a full recovery for next year...We will miss that speed element in our system for sure. Higgins/DPJ/Hodge will all have to step up to the plate...I think we get Hodge back this week or next?

J/c:

How many consecutive years has it been of being injured? Four?

Bring Ratley back.

Ouch. Anybody that thinks we're better off without OBJ is nuts. I hope he has a full and uneventful recovery.

Yup. But he didn’t miss any games last year.

Or Perriman.

The team will gel without OBJ being on the field.

If we're looking for a silver lining from this... it's not the "Baker will inexplicably get better" hogwash. It does mean good things for Higgins. Dude has somehow been criminally under-used by (it seems like) 10 coaching staffs. All but impossible to keep him off the field now.

Stefanski said something to the effect of "their chemistry is undeniable" in his post game presser.

Didn't someone once laugh at the notion that Baker and Higgins had chemistry?

We had PAGES and PAGES of discussion. LOL. I don't remember who said it, but there was a lot of debate about how much chemistry you could claim with Higgins relative low catch total etc.

EDIT - thinking about this some more and putting into context with folks saying that Baker will do better without OBJ (which I don't think is a truism).

It's perfectly possible to be of the opinion that Baker has a superior connection/trust/chemistry with Higgins - where Higgins will be and how Higgins will catch the ball compared to OBJ --- while acknowledging Higgins will never be able to come close to the ability OBJ has - physically, to get separation or run after catch to make monster plays. etc.

Don't underestimate chemistry (Higgins). Don't underestimate good given athletic freaks of nature (OBJ).

J/c

We said it yesterday, but now we have Jarvis, Higgins, and DPJ (and Hodge, who is hurt) ... is there any team who may be a seller who has a speedy type WR?

John Ross perhaps.

Jaguars?
Texans?
Falcons?

KhaDarel Hodge has a 4.39 40 time.

Baker needs a big, strong target... like, say, a Breshad Perriman.

Is Josh Gordon still out there???

DPJ is BIG STRONG and FAST ...

There are two WR's in the NFL that remind me a lot of the good Josh Gordon .... tragically one plays for Pittsburgh. The good news I have him on my keeper fantasy team!

John Ross is Troy Williamson 2.0, I'd steer away from those awful hands...I was thinking of Taylor Gabriel, then forgot he opted out this year. I think Taywan Taylor had 4.30 speed at Eastern Kentucky...I think he may be on our practice squad too. I know Texans have Keke Coutee whom they never play anymore (because of Fuller, Cooks, Cobb, Sills) Then again, he is rather frail himself.

Who is the other?

DK Metcalf comes to mind for me.

Giants waived WR Damion Ratley.
Ratley had caught four passes for 63 yards through five games. His release comes after he committed an offensive pass interference penalty that negated a Darius Slayton touchdown against the Cowboys in Week 5. This is ex-Brown Ratley's age-25 campaign.

RELATED: New York Giants
SOURCE: Art Stapleton on Twitter
Oct 13, 2020, 4:04 PM ET

BRESHAD PERRIMAN
WR, NEW YORK JETS

Perriman has talent, but nothing upstairs. He wanted out because we brought in OBJ; he didn't want to deal with competition, he wanted out of this locker room.... we should not be rewarding that.

It was a one year, team-friendly, "show me" deal... Hours later OBJ was part of the blockbuster trade.

Perriman probably assumed there wouldn't be much "show me" with OBJ on the team. I really can't blame the guy and thought the Browns did the right thing when they released him from the contract.

DK Metcalf - not quite the same exact mold as Flash - but a physical freak. Claypool reminds me of Josh from a mannerism, talent, athletic ability perspective ... it's early days but I see him make plays and I see so much Josh.

I'm sorry about his injury. I hate to see anyone hurt like that. Hope he recovers completely.

Agreed. Obviously we have to utilize the guys we have more. We have the talent to do so with Higgins and Njkou. Peoples-Jones looks like a good player too. Its up to our caches to make it work.

I was hoping for the best. One of our most talented players, and this sucks.

Get well, OBJ.

OBJ's decoy value and the degree that other teams needed to game plan for him is what benefited the team the most IMO. You can't take away the fact that he pretty much won that Dallas game for us but aside from that, it's his command of the defens's attention that the other wide-outs and TE's will miss the most.

Ironically, it's against the best teams (Pitt and Balt) where he matters least IMO. They're the best at taking away singularly potent weapons when there is a big drop off to the second best at the position. They seem to have a harder time against a team with a bunch of 85%'ers than a team with few 95%'er and and gaggle 60-75%'ers. Scheming becomes much less sure. Does that make sense to anyone but me? They simply focused on OBJ, Landry, Hunt and Garret and made us try to win with everyone else. The best teams can do it. That's why I think in a strange way we looked a little better when he left the game. It throws off the game plan in what seems like should be a positive way for the defense but they didn't seem to know who to devote the most resources to. It might be a game or two for defenses to identify the next most obvious combination of piece to try take away. It's a theory anyway. Let's hope Baker continues to spread it around and on target.

GC. Check this out, can't download it but just saw the replay again on the news, and saw where his knee seemed to give out. He's running full speed and putting on the breaks as he comes up to the group. That's when his momentum and weight seem to overload the knee.

Check this out, In my mind I'm like if only he could have leapt, left his feet and entered that group head first to perform a violent tackle his knee wouldn't have been overloaded.
So now I'm thinking the targeting rule caused him to not leave his feet and led to his other choice, which led to his injury.

This
I don’t see many posts by anyone besides the top ten posters posters here. And most of that becomes a silly argument. Couldn’t agree more with this post. Hope it’s talked about, cause, it makes since to me, not only you.

Those looking for video to analyse the play, here is a clip from YouTube, CBS discussing the injury.

Throw Long might have a valid point as you see Beckham's right toe skid about a yard, trying to slow his momentum.

"I'll take 'Overthinking things and silly "hot takes" ' for $1000, Alex."

I don’t believe it but there are enough credible people who have said it that make me at least think about it.

There are people talking about it because he went down and we lit it up; it's the very definition of drawing a conclusion from anecdotal evidence.

Correlation is not causation.

This is true if people are just looking at this game. However, stats show that since OBJ has been here Baker is a better QB with OBJ on the sidelines. This is something to watch and see if it continues.

I am not saying OBJ has any fault in this. OBJ has shown that he is a great talent throughout his career.

I am not remotely ready to buy into that, but it would not be the first time we've seen it here. Every single time Josh Gordon came back, we saw it.... the offense would stall and sputter as it tried to get him the ball.

J/C

I’m not sure if this can relate to football at all, BUT I will say this:

I’ve played basketball at a high level and have played with a lot of different GOOD players. My role was always to score and produce on offense. For whatever reason, sometimes I don’t play as well with better players ... sometimes I’m more effective with “role” player type guys.

I don’t know why that is ... but maybe I didn’t like having to feel pressure to have them score TOO instead of just having the game come naturally

j/c:

OBJ's career as we know it might be over. I heard it will take at least a year to recover and then he still won't be the same if he returns next November. Hell, he might never be the same.

I don't think it's very cool to be throwing shade at a guy after he has just suffered such a catastrophic injury and we're not even sure if those numbers are correlated.

Nobody that I’ve read is throwing shade on OBJ. If anything people (me) are blaming Baker for his inability to work OBJ into the offense.

I haven't seen anyone on here blame Baker for OBJ's injury. It was a poor throw, but those things happen.

I was referring to the team being better w/out OBJ that is making the rounds on this thread and others. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just feels slimy to be talking about him in a negative light after he just suffered such a catastrophic injury. It seems to me that it might be more productive to feel empathy for OBJ and hope for the best w/Baker and the offense. But, if you guys don't agree.........I won't say anything else.

Not a single post has thrown shade on OBJ, you are right.

j/c:

Interesting take and it's been brought up here before.

Here are my thoughts, in no particular order:

1. I feel awful for OBJ. I really hope that he has a quick, speedy and full recovery. Really sucks what happened to him.

2. Some people - not necessarily on this board, but on social media - seem to be relieved or glad that OBJ is not going to play, which is the result of him being injured, and that isn't right.

3. Some people are theorizing that Baker did better because he wasn't trying to force the ball to OBJ or locking in on him too long. I don't know if that's the case yet, and I'm split. My inclination is that is not the case, but I see the evidence and analysts I respect who are wading into that area. So I think it is entirely possible and I will be paying attention to how he performs moving forward.

4. If Baker's performance regressed as a result of locking in on OBJ too much, that is his fault, not OBJ's.

5. OBJ is a talented playmaker, and we cannot refute his desire to win. We would not have won the Cowboys game without him.

I don't think anyone is throwing shade at OBJ. The shade is on Baker for not seeing the forest from the trees (or tree in this case being the stud WR).

Best case scenario is Baker learns to stop playing hero-ball with OBJ off the field and OBJ comes back next year and we have what we hoped for in 2019 (2 years later, regrettably).

No where near enough evidence yet, but man was Baker looking right past open receivers ever since last year. This year it was even worse, he was rushing through his reads and not seeing anything. I just want my QB to play within himself again.

Some people will find fault in Baker even when leads us to a SB Title ... smh

Where did that come from? Did you expect to?

I was responding to a post that made that claim and has since been edited.

Personally I think its the same as when LeBron James was the only good player on the Cavaliers and they always tried to force the ball to him. Now James was so great that he'd just dominate everyone and basketball is a different game but the pacing would slow down to a crawl because the whole offense focused on him and only him.

If you have an offense that is selfless and spreads the ball around it is much harder to beat them, nearly impossible if they're all JUST good enough. See the Warriors in their prime, the Patriots scrub WR's, RB's that won Super Bowls but weren't world beaters by any means.

Once you get into the realm of what's described above you start to create a system for your team. That idea is incredibly powerful. It means that you if you know what players fit your "system" you can draft for it and be successful for a LONG time, see the Steelers.

In our "system" that we're making, WR's aren't super important. I wish people would realize this. We don't need flashy players here, just ones that do their job, same at TE. The major strength is still the run game and we need to concentrate on that. However, our "system" as a whole is:

Run game
SHORT to INTERMEDIATE pass patterns NOT LONG
RPO
Play action
Dink and Dunk

Mayfield's strength is not the deep ball and long developing passing routes. Now he can hit those every once in a while if he needs too. We need to make the system fit the player's strength. In my opinion we need to stick to the above, upgrade the defense and sky would be the limit.

If the Browns offensive guru(s) are so cutting edge, it would be easier to remember those recent games... aww screw it.

I'm trying to say they didn't use Landry and OBJ together on the same drive or even really on the same day

How hard is that, they're supposed to both be really good.
I suppose I'm going to be told to blame Baker, what about the Coaches.

Do you remember one day, one game, or one drive, where they both came up big at the same time, used as a duo even, not a "one off" while the other has to take a seat and watch?

I don't remember once, and that's all last year, and 6 games this year.
Just seems to me 31 other teams would have found a way, I don't get it.

You're failing to factor in opponent.
Nobody gets to simply decide "I'm going to use this guy this time" or "well, I will use both evenly".

If you aren't factoring in who was playing and how they were playing us, you aren't looking at the picture at all.

The most likely reason is that we haven't played anyone that is so bad that both are nearly always effective. Defenses roll coverages, the take away routes, they actually win in coverage often even against great WR's... it is never so simple as "I'm just going to use both on this drive"

I'd prefer that he said that because it's a ludicrous idea, but that works too.

::waiting for people to twist this in 3.... 2.... 1.... ::

I won't twist it. I like what Baker said and I think he is right. In fact, that was my message yesterday when I was trying to explain why we might not want to be talking about it.

I do think Baker has shown that he has matured a lot this year. I think that helps w/the team's focus and keeps those nasty reporters away.

I too think Baker handled that question wisely

I think so too. A little humility, another year in the NFL, and I think Stefanski has been good for him too

For one.. I am upset about losing OBJ. we are NOT a deep enough team that we can just move on to the next guy without a care, especially if he's elite at that position.

Yep. "Baker did not deny that he is better off without OBJ".

Our fanbase is stupid. We have an elite WR and fans want to trade him because Baker forces the ball to him.

Lighbulb moment dear ones.

How about coach teaches Baker to stop forcing the ball and instead throw to the open receiver. Ya know, the one that isn't double/triple covered.

It's a coachable moment.

Seems logical.

I totally agree with you, but it was Stefanski that said they were wanting to get OBJ involved early on in games.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...early-in-games/

I'm not sure I'd argue with you if you said this doesn't qualify as forcing the ball to him. Does seeing 1-1 coverage vs OBJ and giving him extra attention in those cases constitute forcing the ball to him?

j/c...

1. I feel for OBJ and hate the fact he suffered an injury of that magnitude. I believe he will work hard to get himself back I'm not sure of some data of WR coming back from ACL surgery. I know RBs have come back.

2. I have said prior to the injury that for some reason the team did not flow on the O with him hear.

Baker Prior to OBJ looked great.

3. Its one game so who really knows but I saw this with the Giants for years. The kid has amazing talent but the O always became about him and not always was it OBJ's doing.

4. There is no doubt in my mind that Baker was told to focus on OBJ if he had single coverage and get him the ball. I remember one game he would just throw it and we would get an Interference call and holding. He didn't catch it but we picked up first downs. But the fact is the O had no Flow. I know some wish to blame Baker for this but proof is in the pudding. Our flow on the O was tremendous without OBJ in the fray. Also before OBJ came here and Baker was a rookie.

5. I have said this many times. You cannot build a team around a WR. You need good ones but you don't need a Super star WR to make your O go. If only we didn't put all that pressure on OBJ and just let him run routes and play within the system. If he got open and was in the progression give him the ball but we always would Force the issue with OBJ and we made the O about him.

6. I'm sorry he's out but I don't think we will be hurt by his absence. The sport journalist are as always over rating the value of a Super Star WR. Falcons, Bengals, Lions all had super star WR and it got them NO WHERE!

Praying for the kid to recover strong...but personally I would hope we can someday be able to trade him and get a good draft pick to pick up a stellar OG, LB, Safety or CB.

jmho

This is good to see.

Good for him!

OBJ looking great so far.

j/c:

Can we have a realistic discussion about Odell Beckham Jr.? Terry Pluto

CLEVELAND, Ohio – The NFL is not a fantasy league. It’s hard not to view it that way in the age of statistics, computers and analytics.

We often hear, “The numbers don’t lie.” I will add this: Except when they do lie.

Or as veteran NBA agent Ron Grinker once told me, “That’s accurate, but not true.” He meant a $10 million offer from a team over three years was accurate ... but the contract was actually paid out over 15 years. So it wasn’t truly $10 million for three years. It was much less because the value of dollars diminish over time.

What does this have to do with Odell Beckham Jr., the subject of cleveland.com’s Bark Week?

Our staff is doing a great job of breaking down various stats of what happens when Beckham is on the field with the Browns and when he’s not.

An interesting one mentioned by Mary Kay Cabot was Baker Mayfield having 10 TD passes and seven interceptions with Beckham. The final interception was in Cincinnati, his first pass of the game to Beckham – the receiver suffered a torn ACL knee injury on the play.

In the remaining games, counting two in the postseason, Mayfield threw 20 TD passes compared to two interceptions.

ESPN had several stats showing how Mayfield was far more effective without Beckham and with Jarvis Landry and Rashard Higgins as the main two receivers.

That passed the eye test. Much like in 2018, Mayfield seemed more comfortable and effective QB when Beckham wasn’t on the field. You can debate why that could be case and perhaps how that can change.

But I see those numbers as being accurate and pointing toward a bigger truth.

FANTASY & REALITY

Those who like raw numbers look at Beckham as the player who was eye-popping in New York early in his career. Then they factor in some flashes of that Beckham in Cleveland, such as the Dallas game early in 2020 when he scored three TDs. That included a dazzling 50-yard run and a 37-yard TD catch.

But I have the same concerns about Beckham as the day the Browns traded for him – durability.

Part of ability is availability. The reality is Beckham has had major problems staying healthy. Consider the following:

1. In his last two seasons with the Giants (2017-18), Beckham missed 16 of 32 games. In 2017, he suffered a high ankle sprain and then fractured the same ankle. He played five games. In 2018, he had a major quad injury and missed the final four games.

2. He played all 16 games for the Browns in 2019, but rarely practiced because of various injuries. He had hernia surgery after the season. The 2019 season was only the second time in his seven-year career he’s played all 16 games.

3. In the last four years, he has had knee, ankle and hernia surgeries. He has missed 27 of 64 games. That means he’s missed 42% of the games.

IS HE THE SAME PLAYER?

Beckham recently posted a tweet reading: “As quick as we all forgot ... is as quick as I’ll remind ya ... Players with at least 6,800 rec yrds and 50 rec TDs in their first 80 games: Odell Beckham Jr., end of list.”

Those stats are accurate. But they break down this way:

1. In Beckham’s first three years (2014-16), he had 35 TDs, 4,122 yards.

2. In his last four seasons (2017-20), it’s 16 TDs and 2,708 yards.

The reason for the decline is primarily injuries. He’s missed a lot of games and often played through pain. I’d argue that he is not the same player as early in his career, and the numbers do show that.

HOW WILL HE COME BACK?

In the past, an ACL injury could be career-threatening. That’s not the case any more. Everything from surgery techniques to rehabilitation has improved. It’s a reasonable expectation that the Beckham will return to the field.

But is it true to say he’ll be the same player as earlier in his career, even though he’s not especially old at age 28? It’s hard to answer the question, other than it would be more likely to be true if he hadn’t suffered all the other injuries before the ACL.

It’s tempting to imagine what a healthy Beckham from those early years would do for the Browns. But I find it hard to count on him playing at that same (2014-16) level. Maybe part of that opinion is colored by my view of the Browns having unselfish receivers led by Jarvis Landry, who has missed only one game in seven seasons. Landry was out for that game because of COVID-19 protocol, not injury.

Rashard Higgins has been one of my favorite players since being drafted in 2016. I’m intrigued by Donovan Peoples-Jones, believing he can turn into a deep threat without needing a lot of passes thrown in his direction. Other receivers can be added via free agency or the draft.

Is Beckham more of a luxury or a necessity, especially at $12 million and his injury history? That’s a question the Browns need to ask.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2021/02...erry-pluto.html

And to clarify, his cap hit would be almost $16M in 2021. Not $12M. (According to Spotrac). And it would be nearly $13M in dead cap to cut him outright, which doesn't make financial sense to do.

I realize that the beat writers need to come up with things to write about, but I really dislike when people that are supposed to be fans of our team start a public opinion campaign against one of our better players.

The writers are supposed to be the fans of the team?

What he is getting paid, his injuries, and production since being here are legitimate concerns. I won't get into the Baker connection because I'm not sure how reliable that is but its been noticeable so far as well.

People can get butt-hurt over this all they want but these are realistic issues that need to be addressed.

I don't think the team cuts him because it would be financially stupid to do so just to save $3M when there is possible upside on the guy if he is 100% healthy. Now, maybe if the Browns were in some terrible cap situation and they had no choice, but we're not there. Also, when he is 100%, he is our best WR by a long shot. But he's not been 100% for the past 4 years and that trend should be troubling to everybody, fans or beat writers.

I don't think the team trades him because of his injuries, salary, and production the past two years. A team might not want to give up much and we probably prefer not to sell "low". Maybe one team takes a stab with him and want to go for it all, but I'm not certain that is the case.

My guess is we try to restructure his deal for 2021 and give it one last go w/ Beckham to see if it can work.

The local beat reporters should be, yes. At the least, they shouldn't be primarily fans of other teams.



I think it's mountains from molehills. They're issues, but I think they're blown up into being more than they actually warrant.

Folks can keep getting their skivvies in a bunch over him all they want, but the issues seen were all early in the season... and, they were last season. They aren't issues any longer until they are. Like you said, he is NOT going anywhere because financially it makes no sense at all, so he WILL be here which means there isn't much to say or do but wait to see how he fits himself into things this summer/fall.

Restructure.... that I can see happening, but that won't happen without extending him.
In the end, any issues with the offense trying to run through him fall on the QB and the coaches because OBJ can't throw it to himself. I don't think this coaching staff is averse to learning from themselves on what works and what doesn't and I think they are plenty capable of coaching the QB to stop looking to get bailed out by OBJ.

Basically....it's a coaching issue.

Why should the local reporters be fans of a team? That would seem to be a conflict of interests.

His current contract runs through 2023 (so three full seasons), so I don't think it would necessarily be about extending him but I suppose it could be. But it might result in adding more guaranteed $$ as it would cost the Browns $0 in cap hit to cut him in 2022. I'm assuming because the guaranteed dollars have already been given out, whether by NY or us.

Hmmm... perhaps "fan" is getting read into too much here. The local writers for a team, at the least, shouldn't be against the local team. They shouldn't be more for some other team than the one they report on, and their sole interests definitely should not be in seeing what sort of crap storms they can stir up.

The money is the money... it's all salary over those years, so the cap hits are gonna be what they are. If you add a year or two, then you can begin taking advantage of lowering his cap hits.

If you restructure, it is a new deal, and all new guaranteed dollars get prorated over the duration of the new deal. So, he will go from being a $0 hit if cut next year to a major cap hit.

The other hurdle is that without adding years, any new/restructured deal is likely to result in a LARGER cap hit this year... unless you can somehow convince him to take a pay cut; which I doubt.

"Don't be a Grossi" is what I say. Local beat reporters shouldn't be against or antagonistic towards the team. There's a fine line between that and legit criticism.

Watching his rehab video brings back painful memories of my ACL rehab. Man did that surgery, recovery and rehab SUCK! I do remember being in the same rehab facility as a semi-pro football player and watching his rehab and how it was totally different than mine. He was at a 90 degree knee bend WAY before me.

Don't you think it's odd that when it comes to Baker they blamed all of his problems before this season on our former coaches, but when it comes to OBJ all of hos problems rest squarely on his own shoulders?

It's not about the uniform, it's about who's wearing it.

I suggest people give OBJ the same luxury they afforded Baker and give him a full season with Stefanski.

I don't know how I feel about Odell?

There has never been a question about his talent or work ethic.

We have him on a team friendly deal. If he plays.

That has been an issue he has missed a bunch of games in his career.

I have no problem keeping him because he adds talent to the team. And he is threat all over the field.

At the same time we succeeded without him. And we have areas of need.

It becomes a question of in a trade you give up talent to get a return. The return must make the team better.

So, it would have to be the right deal.

Half the league is hurting for cap space, so your market of trade partners is already smaller than you'd want. Then, he's coming off an ACL injury. Then, he'd still be a big chunk of dead money. It's a buyer's market for trades and we still take a hit if he's traded.

Nobody is going to give up enough for him to make saving only $3 million worthwhile. There's almost zero upside to a trade of OBJ.

This is a good point.

This is confusing. The only thing being discussed is his injuries, the time he’s missed, and his contract. No one is blaming him for them.

The Browns could use OBJ in a draft day trade to move up to select a player the Browns are targeting...

or we can just keep OBJ and make sure our offense remains a massive threat.

If OBJ only has one more year on his contract, cutting him would be foolish. Getting rid of proven talent is foolish. I say you keep him thru his contract, and see how it goes. As far Baker being better without him, I don't believe that. Baker had an epiphany, turned the corner right about the time Odell went down.

People claim they had no chemistry, but Baker was horrible at the beginning of the year. He was inaccurate, and that was not only with Odell. IMO, Odell wasn't the problem, Baker was. To his credit, he learned a new offense in a year with no offseason and new scheme and coaches. The light went on, and I truly believe that if Beckam was still playing when that happened, he would have went off also.

Odell is a threat that is not taken lightly. That means a lot to the whole offense.

Jc

How much was Odell double teamed compared to the rest of the WRs? Pretty sure that plays into things.

The Browns are rarely #1 in the NFL in any good category.

The Brows 2020 team rushing yards per game were #1 in the NFL for at least 2 of the 6 weeks that OBJ suited up, and they were not #1 for any of the weeks he did not suit up.

I think, He kept safeties back.

Edit to clarify: They did not achieve the top spot of #1 in the league in rushing yards per team, at any point of the season after Beckham's injury.

I see no value in trading OBJ, what he brings to the table far and away outweighs any deal we could make IMO.

The issue was Baker no question in my mind on that. If he would have been healthy in the second half of the season I think we all would have seen Baker and OBJ take the league apart. Baker grew unbelievably in the second half of the season. He still has issues, but is clearly on the upside of his growth.

If we were to let OBJ go we would be looking for someone else that brings what he does to our offense, that said why would you even entertain sending him to someone else?

If Berry ships him out of Cleveland (doubtful) I am going to think he isn't nearly the football guy any of us think he is.

The money and OBJ aren't factors IMO.

Regardless what the numbers say of before OBJs injury and after. I at least can't say with certainty it was his presence versus continuing to get accustomed to the new staff, system, etc.

j/c

If the Browns could get out from under OBJ's contract without a ridiculous cap hit, do you think they would do so?

I would say yes.

Would the Browns like to see OBJ here, but under a more-reasonable contract?

I would say yes.

Neither of those two things will happen this year.

There are no guarantees or dead money in OBJ's contract. Getting "out from under it" is not a problem. It's whether it's worth it to trade away a highly talented player based on a few games.

For reasons that are beyond me, a few folks seem to think OBJ had something to do with 2019's horrid play calling.

To my understanding:

When OBJ tore his ACL, his 2021 contract became fully guaranteed (including cap hit)...unless he clears rehab/IR prior to the new league year starting.

OBJ has no dead-cap hit for '22.

If he's traded, his contract goes with him...who pays the $$$ is negotiable, I suppose.

I don't believe there is any intent on trading him.

However, if they are approached with the right deal?

Berry will consider.

I don't have a problem if the team decides to trade OBJ, I'll trust their judgement, but some of the scenarios out there by different writers are down right funny. Saw one a couple of weeks ago of us trading OBJ to Tampa for a 1st plus a late rnd pick, then yesterday I seen a story from a Detroit writer that had us trading OBJ to them for just a late rnd pick and a backup CB. LOL

If he is traded his whole salary goes with him and we pay nothing. When a player is cut or traded their unpaid bonuses become dead cap for the team that trades them. That means the Giants already assumed all of OBJ’s potential dead cap.

I agree on the bonuses part...or I should say that that is how I understand it. I believe the team unloading the player can negotiate to pay the salary (or part of it) of the departing player...maybe not.

I also believe/understand that OBJ had no '21 dead cap (due to the Giants having to eat the bonus)...until he went on IR.

Since he is on IR, they can't cut him. He won't come off IR until well-after the new league year begins...so his '21 salary is guaranteed. It is not equal to dead cap, but it is essentially the same regarding his '21 salary.

Or so I understand it.

The $12.8 million in "dead cap" on spotrac is ours. It is the guaranteed portion of this year's salary. Once that is guaranteed on March 19th, it *is* Dead Cap. It is a cap charge that is stuck to us whether he is here or not... that's the definition of Dead Cap.

We cannot cut or trade him before then; not until he is healthy... SO, ANY trade will only net us a savings of $3 million this year (the unguaranteed portion of his salary, plus bonus & workout money). We will be on the hook for $12.8 million no matter what. Given that, do we REALLY need to free up $3 million so bad that we give up on what he brings to the offense?

Nope.

JMHO, what he brings to the offense can be debated....his personality and "need for the ball" plus his temper tantrums...he's not my favorite player by a long shot. Getting on a home town writer for doing his/her job ain't right. They should offer up opinions, read it, evaluate it, and move on. They just speculate about what could happen, just like fiction writers....enjoy. I'm not sure OBJ is the asset everyone assumes he is....and he can't stay healthy...availability is HUGE...as the Chiefs how important their tackles missing cost them...GO Browns!!!!

Unless we are overwhelmed with a trade I would keep OBJ. Let's see if he and Baker can get some chemistry. Let's se if he can stay healthy. Give it this season and then make a decision next year. JMO

From my POV, the only justification to keep or trade OBJ is productivity. If he was consistently scoring two TDs a game, every game... this would be a no brainer. But if the data indicates his productivity is not worth the continued investment, or that the team suffers in some way for him being on the field... then moving on should be a no brainer was well.

I don't personally 'like' OBJ because I think he is a distraction, a diva, and overrated... BUT I wouldn't trade him at this point either. I think we should all see how well this next year goes before we even consider that. With Baker looking like he's finally come into his own, with the team looking like it's ready to be an annual contender for the foreseeable future, with the coaching stabilized, and finally an offseason where Baker and OBJ can get into a rhythm... it's just crazy to trade him before you see if that bears fruit.

Well said. I'm very curious what him and Baker will look like now that everyone is more familiar/comfy in the offense. I'm guessing/hoping that a lot of the lack of being in sync that we were seeing early in the year before OBJ went down will magically disappear now that Baker seems to have gotten his head around the offense and is more comfy.

Yet that's not the way it's been reported that any of his team mates see him.

That is true...but if they DID see him that way, they would not say so publicly. He's earned his rep via the media...even if it's not correct. I don't care.

We won't be able to trade him now even if we wanted to...and as Purp said, the $3mil we could save by cutting him isn't worth it/that.

Now, it is my opinion that...had he not gotten injured, there is no way we would have kept him at his current contract number for '21. He'd have been cut or re-structured. But the point is moot...or should I say more moot.

They may not speak out against him in public, but then they wouldn't speak out about what a great team mate he is either. Which many of them have.

As far as the rest of your post I don't think any of us have any idea if they would have "kept him at his current contract" or not for 2021.

Baker made a huge turnaround during the second half of 2020. I attribute that to both Bakers hard work and Stefanski's coaching. How that may or may not have impacted the Baker/OBJ connection is anyone's guess and that would make the worth of OBJ a huge variable. To me that's a huge guessing game with nothing to validate either side of it.

clearly, you don't follow him on Insta. His teammates are always chiming in, liking, etc.

Way I see it...

Guy is busting his butt trying to get back on the field. I truly believe he's bought into the Stefanski/Browns way.

There is also, given he's not going to be healty by the beginning of march. Browns are going to take on most of his salary this year too.

THe guy's a world class WR. You're not going to get a much better receiver in the draft. It also allows us to address other positions of need too. Give Baker another year of working with him. Along with Stefanski and Co.

If he performs at the level he has been these past 2 years. it's not going to hurt us. If he goes back to the guy he was in NY, then our Offense is just as potent.

He's not actively harming the team any... I don't see any reason to move him.

If he's unhappy, thats another thing entirely. But he doesn't seem to be unhappy.

I agree.

My opinion is we need to put this talk to rest. Why would other teams trade for him at this point unless we were simply giving him away?

This is one of the strongest, deepest receiver drafts in years (one we probably best tap in to at some point) and you get them on rookie contracts.

Beckham isn't on a rookie contract and he is currently rehabbing from injury. If he wasn't on the Browns, how would people feel about trading for him considering the facts at hand? Other teams front offices aren't full of fools, as much as we would like to think so.

I mean, everything has a price but overall not good. But it goes beyond last season. The guy has been injured each of the last four. That's alarming.

Who would you rather have on the team...

OBJ or JJ Watt.

...why not both?

This is the correct answer.

JJ, no brainer.

Both.
They don't play the same position, so it's not a problem.

Neither?

$30 mil for two guys who have been injured a lot lately...one over 30 and the other coming off an ACL.

I'd rather throw the DL $$$ at a younger guy - even if it means more $$$. We need a lot of help on the DL.

We need a WR who can be the deep threat, take-the-lid-off guy. I prefer he be 6'2" or bigger. I'd be ok with this:

Landry
Higgins
Peoples-Jones
Hodge
The take-the-top-off guy
Quick, shifty little guy (I think OBJ will make this guy redundant.)

Which was exactly my point. They like him.

We are better at WR with OBJ. Period.

This^

Under Freddie I was pretty critical of OBJ for his diva antics.. the shoes, visor, etc. Yes, hard worker and known to be a great teammate.. but even guys who work hard and are super friendly can be a disruption.

Under Stefanski I thin OBJ took a step forward in his professional maturity but full disclosure once he got injured I too questioned whether or not his presence was holding the offense back (crediting that to being IMO more of a Baker trying to force it to him problem).

At this juncture I don't think we need OBJ. This offense was potent without him and what it is lacking, I don't think OBJ is the answer to.

But I don't think we should get rid of him via cutting or trade. I think he's still our top WR in terms of what he can do once he gets the ball in his hands. I love DPG and Higgins as much as the next Dawg but neither one of those guys is close to creating YAC like OBJ or even Jarvis.

I do believe we need that tall, fast, big bodied, blow the lid off the defense type WR which IMO rounds out the room.

Another reason I keep OBJ is that we're supposed to be playoff contenders now. He has serious post season experience. Most of our offense has 1 win and 1 loss. I think you have to value a guy who can play on the biggest stages when you play on the biggest stages.

I don't think OBJ has as much playoff experience as you think. It looks like the Browns have more playoff experience with him here than the Giants did with him there. (Or he may have been hurt there, too...maybe??)

Did some research:

His first playoff experience was in the 2016 (played in Jan '17) postseason where the Giants were one and done (according to this article: link ) They didn't make the postseason in '17 or '18. That one year is the only time the Giants have been back since winning the 2011 Superbowl. OBJ was drafted in 2014.

Guessing Malcolm Smith had the most playoff experience on the team last season, though he didn't have much competition. Though I might be getting distracted by his random Superbowl MVP. Maybe Hooper/Conklin/Tretter? ...Hunt?

Edit: I actually think we should keep OBJ, though. Selling low doesn't really make sense. Hopefully with another year in the system we can get to the line faster and use more presnap motion to make it harder for opponents to neutralize/double him and help him get more free releases.

JC

Whatever trade value OBJ holds will surface after he returns to play. With the quality of receivers in this draft, I don't see an active trade market for OBJ, so the point is moot.

Money, money, money.

How to spend it?

There is always a question age, performance, money and time.

A lot depends on where a team is competitively. You would like a roster of guys all under thirty. All under contract and all in their prime.

A GM has to understand balance and how to build.

We have a good team. We have many pieces in place. However, the bills will be coming due on major talent pieces.

Right now the offensive roster is capable of going all the way.

Defensively we have to invest. Watt is still a productive talent that would add to this team. He should have at least two years or more of high production especially with our team.

Odell when healthy remains a talent. He can help the Browns.

However, if it comes down to money and what we need most right now? I want to invest in defense. We need to upgrade the DL, linebackers, and DB's.

That is what will put us in position to win it all.

We can get a receiver from free agency or in a trade that will be good enough.

But as a team we have to be better on defense in a number of places.

If our defense would have been better we could have won the Super Bowl.

When I think that if we could have just kept Chad Henne from running 14 yards, we could possibly be in the NFC championship game....

That’s crazy.

Yes it is, since we are in the AFC.

You sound like me...I think

If I was doing it, I would build a D first.

j/c...

That person looks healthy.

I don't think anyone has questioned his work ethic. It just sucks to see these rehab videos year after year.

Nice! Looks like his straight-line strength and speed is coming on strong!!

What's Von Miller doing there?

He's also rehabbing a torn tendon.

Forgot he was injured.

you could see it, he was moving OBJ around and doing different things with him. I don't see any reason to believe he's going anywhere.. You'll never recoup value so may as well keep him. Its not ralph brown