So I thought a good discussion about our defense is in order. Also this should make a good subject for Pure Football as there is not Emotional Opinions that we find discussing the Offense.

Long Term Keepers.
This is Obvious. Garrett and Ward. I think in our future we should covet a Taller bigger CB to compliment Ward. But we should lock him up long term.

Garrett is an NFL MVP candidate. Our Defense with him present or OUT are so different and without Garrett actually the D becomes inept. You know, they seem to need the Blue Pill.

Now not ever player has to be a HOFer to have a functional Defense.

The OLD GUYS, Well even though he is just 29 Sheldon Richardson is GOOD but not as dominant as he has been in past years. I think he has found a home here as in the past he would migrate all over the place.

Oliver Vernon is almost the same (30 years old), I think he is GOOD but his dominant play seems to be behind him. Both of these guys were BEASTS! But now are just "OK"


The keepers:
Larry Ogunjobi, He is 26 and still has a load of talent. We always talk about the Offense and the struggles that belie them because of a lack of continuity. Well the same has to be said of the Defense and Larry has seen changes in Coordinators how many times??? I think with Continuity he can become a Pro Bowler.

Mack Wilson, He is just 22 and could progress to be a very good piece of the defensive puzzle. He is one of those guys that we say teams need to have success when not drafted in the first 3 rounds.

Ronnie Harrison Jr., He is 23 and I love his motor and he should get better as we have continuity coming. He plays the SS position which seems to be the easier Safety position. I'm not sure if he has a future in the FS position. Got my fingers crossed for DELPIT! Any news out there on his surgery/achilles. You would think that he would be in some REHAB by now.

The few that still have to prove something.
Taki Taki...I don't see any glaring negatives but I just don't see much explosive play which I would want from our LBs.

Jordan Elliot. I thnk he was playing well for the little reps he was getting and then he was injured. I know he has come back but I have not seen him that much for assessing.

Anyways, would love to read some other opinions. We know if we continue to improve our OL and create a good running game with Play action. The key to a Championship TEAM would be through our Defense.

I still say DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS! We are far from being a Championship team. Continuity and getting much more talent.

We do have some of the pieces. The next two seasons are very important!

jmho

My issue with Vernon is his health. Obviously we got injury concerns all across the defense, but this year a lot of teams get the Rona excuse.

However, Vernon was injured last year as well. So just do to availability reasons, I think we should consider moving on from him.

I agree that Garrett and ward are no brainers. But I’d also put Sheldon and Larry in that category as well because they are good interior linemen, and Sheldon still has plenty left in the tank.

Other than those guys, Harrison and Mitchell would be the only ones I’d keep on the roster. Every other position is a spot where we need an upgrade.

I understand Mack Wilson is young, but I really haven’t seen much to think that we can find an upgrade.

I will start at the LB spot...

I was thrilled we drafted Mack Wilson...But he has been off this year, and it very well could be because of his injury. I think we all were surprised he was able to come back so early, however he may have been given the green light too soon. He def. appears a step slower this year, I also think our scheme is effecting him as well. Mack does best when you have him as a "go" linebacker, seems like this year we are asking more of read then react...He is failing in that aspect.

I know before the season, that this may be the worst LB core I've ever seen assembled (and yes even worse than the core the Bengals assembled a couple years back) We really need an influx of talent...Heck I don't even one rangy LB on our roster. Can't comment on Jacob Phillips, guys knee has been messed up all season. The guys we are starting, should be depth pieces...not showcased as starters IMO. We need to add several pieces here in FA and the draft.

Dline...Outside of Garrett...Sheldon has been a nice FA signing for us, I was really worried about his effort and attitude as that has been flagged in the past. But he surely is a leader for us, and plays well. Ogi, I wouldn't mind re-signed for depth purposes, however I'm sure some other club will give him a bigger deal...I was so excited for his transformation this year (seems like he really worked on his body this off-season) But he hasn't really taken off...Then again, I know he may have been playing somewhat injured as well....I'm sure the bye week, will be welcoming to him and others. Jordan Elliot seems to always be the last one off the snap, it was his weakness in college as well. Then again least he ain't jumping offsides lol

I think of how the Eagles D was able to always have a strong rush with just their Dline alone. Well they drafted a lot of guys in that department, and built their depth out amazingly. They had (4) deep at DE, and nearly as deep inside. Kept everyone fresh, had the depth and option to add stunts; and you know what...They kept applying pressure and wreaking havoc....may be a pipe dream, but I would love more pieces added here.

Secondary...Ward like mentioned prior, is a keeper. Kevin Johnson has been a nice rental, He has shown decently despite fighting off another injury. Mitchell I give kudos to for stepping up into a starting role...Though he probably best served as a #3...Greedy, well you know you can't depend on him...We def. need a starter aside from Ward, I don't mind Mitchell as our #3, and Johnson is probably best as your #4 (though I'm aware he is a FA after this year, just can't depend on him too much providing his detailed injuries) ...Whatever Greedy provides will just be extra or depth.

Sandejo...Man I really thought we would only see him on special teams...Delpit's injury really killed this secondary, and the domino effect came full screen. Sandejo is probably finished in the NFL, age has showed itself. I was really excited with Karl Joseph, but reminded everyone that insurance is a must with him as he has detailed injuries as well. He hasn't looked well either...though did flash in the first Bengals game. I am no coach, but we seem to dropping him further out as a play or FS (not his strength) And playing Sendejo (FS) more in the box...Though Joseph missed a few games to injury, perhaps coach is finally seeing something. I've noted several reps Joseph is playing OLB in. But we a def. lacking coverage in that deep field...We must bring a starter FA/draft pick at FS IMO...We don't know what Delpit is...And we may be ok with Harrison and Joseph at SS (Joseph is a FA but I wouldn't mind him retained with splitting reps with Harrison) Harrison seems to be growing in our offense, and he hasn't done too bad...I know he was highly touted, so hopefully he continues to grow.

Heck looking into the draft...We have a ton of defensive needs, and obviously this could be really flawed (depending whom grows or regresses, and who is let go or re-inked)

1. LB
2. DE
3. FS
3. CB
4. DT
4. LB
5. DE
6. WR
7. TE

That could explain some things. I also think losing Joe Schobert has a lot to do with Mack's drop in performance. Last year he just looked like an explosive ball hawk, playmaker type, who at times made some good plays for us. We had Joe back there directing the defense and he probably didn't have to think as much. I'm still pizzed that we let Joe go.

Good topic.

Although PFF grades have a place they are not the end all.

Example last weeks game. 40 mph winds were a huge factor in how the game was played and the stats. Not factored in grades.

What my eyes see. In the games we lost the DL was compromised. We could not stop the run when it was a given. That is a problem. Every team we play will have that film. We have to be better. By scheme, technique, or talent something has to be corrected.

Garrett and Ward are standouts. Greedy has not played. So we don't know if he has improved.

Richardson is still effective as a tackle. Larry not so much. He gets stopped or pushed back to often. We need a better rotation at tackle.

Taylor and Elliott have not made much impact at all so far.

Guston has been decent.

Clearly we need more consistent pressure on the quarterback. Myles will always be game planned against. Vernon is not a consistent player by injury and results.

The linebackers as a unit have been a weakness both in run support and pass defense.

Taki and Wilson have not lived up to draft status. I am just not seeing it. Both of them are slow to react and are often out of place or late.

Wilson may be trying to come back from injury but he has been horrible.

Malcolm Smith has been decent. Goodson has done little.
Phillips has been injured so I have not seen him make any impact to date.

This unit needs attention in the off season both from the draft and FA.

Harrison was a good pick up. I see him as the SS starter and a good one.

Mitchell is a valuable back up.

FS has been a glaring weakness. Delpit was supposed to play a huge role. Hopefully he will return and be fully healthy.

This off season should be about improving the defense. We are not close to playoff ready on defense.

Yeah I think Mack thrives in an attack mode, downhill go seek ball role. Seems like (could be wrong) Joe Woods has our LBs in more of a sit and read role. One thing I know Joe Schobert really shined in on, which stats don't show...Was his ability to get the play in, then alter it after the initial look changed. He was always doing well in that role...Leadership never shows in PFF stats. I believe Goodson is our LB that is making those calls this year, I could be wrong. And your right Mack was showing himself off last year...either chasing down plays, or attacking plays...This year it just seems like he is sitting there (well all of our LBs seem mostly like that nowadays) It has been a problem for years with our LBs, but it seems like they always get washed away far too easy while attempting to blitz...Some of this is because we tip our hats too soon. We as fans see it prior, and Olineman def. see it as well. While teams in our division (Pitt and Baltimore come to mind) disguise it so well, as its timed at the last moment...and it always ends in some chaotic negative play for us. On the opposite spectrum, I know they run 3-4...But I know we would never be able to replicate the same even in their scheme.

As mentioned, I see not one single rangy LB on our team this year...Last year Mack Wilson appeared to be that guy, whether injury or scheme or regression...I'm not sure. But we def. need a Patrick Willis esque LB in that middle level of our D.

Hopefully Mack, Phillips, and Taki start showing some glimpses in this second half of the year.

I think Phillips when healthy, might be the best LB we have against the run

We absolutely need to double-dip (FA/draft pickups) at FS/Safety and LB positions. I wouldn't mind us being opportunistic at CB if someone ends up being there for us. Good teams find glue-type pickups like Steelers and Haden.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Mack Wilson is all of a sudden going to be this great player...he was really bad last year. We need all new LB, not a single one of them is worth keeping. Phillips looks to be decent, but always hurt. We need a thumper and a sideline to sideline guy. we have neither now. That makes everyone look bad. I also wouldn't count on Delpit for atleast another year if ever, In fact, I'd be going into the offseason just assuming he's never going to play again. I've seen that injury a few times and not a single one ever got back to 100%. Going to be interesting because there was an abundance of that injury in the nfl this year because of the shortened camps. Soft tissue injuries through the roof. Delpit is house money at this point, draft or replace in FA and if he makes it back then great, more depth or trade piece.

Thanks for the participation guys

I totally forgot about Greedy Williams - he has some game and he was a lot more aggressive than reported but who really knows as the kid has missed a lot of games.

Mack Wilson has some explosion which to me is a must for LB the system can be coached up, it is new to him and we had (like all teams) the Pandemic to factor in as we put in a new Defense along with his injuries so I'm not too sour on him. I think put into a GOOD DEFENSE he can become a piece of the puzzle.

I wish we would be more aggressive and attack the gaps (especially the A gaps!)

I think I didn't express my pleasure of having Richardson on this team, Every year I was campaigning for him to come here Via FA but would sign 1 year deals with other teams. We were the first to sign him for more than 1 years of course we had a regime change since Dorsey signed him. But Richardson was a BEAST I think he would do well in a complete built up Defense.
We have too many BAD Talent out there so that we have no complimentary Defense. Richardson's talents would show up more once we get a complete effective Front 7.

Same with Larry, I believe we can keep Vernon unless we need the money but he is a rotational player as his STUD days seem to be over, he was another player I campaigned (lol as if that helps... ) for us to get when he left the Dolphins!

I know we lost Schobert who btw is not showing his worth as a 10 mil MLB!

What I don't know is how we were not in the running to acquire Blake Martinez in FA again a 10 mil MLB but I think he most definitely is worth it! Giants got him. They got some decent pieces including our Peppers who left as part of the OBJ trade. Looking back I wish we had not made either deal. Vernon nor OBJ.

jmho

Delpit, don't know how much of his explosiveness will be effected by the Achilles injury!

A big CB, Definitely DE, FS, LBs are in order. I hope we keep Larry O once our D pieces are filled he could become a beast if we Attack Gaps.

Greedy hasn't show much of anything at all, yet. He was not good last year and he hasn't been on the field this year. He is seriously creeping toward Bust territory. We won't cut him because he's cheap, but we absolutely need to invest at CB.

Wilson & Taki just don't have it. I had hopes for Wilson, but never believed in Taki, at all. We NEED competency at LB. I get that the defense isn't predicated on superb LB play, but we cannot have the sub-par play we've had so far. This group MUST get better and I think we need to employ investments from the draft and free agency here.


I like our DLine, but we need more there. Larry is disappearing a lot, and Vernon is nearly a no-show this year. In fact, he didn't show up at all this year until Myles went out with his knee last week. Where was that effort before then??


Essentially, it feels like the D is just a project that was gutted to the studs and this offseason we start to actually build it up. The tough thing will be getting it built up enough to be competitive before we start losing the stacked talent we're enjoying on offense.

people talking missing schobert, which i don't think he was worth anywhere near what he got, but the one that got away was ogbah

This.

Really spot on. Just abandoned on the rails. Nothing feels complete, except MG. Line's play has been so-so at best. Run is killing us when opponent can drive the field and score. I chalk that up to a lack of LBs and using this scheme. Just not happening.

Phillips could help against the run ...

this seems about as likely as Sendejo making the pro-bowl this year.

Actually Phillips looked pretty good in the time he was on the field...

The easy answer is the young guys I guess.

Right now the only core I see is Garrett and Ward.

Hopefully Delpit gets healthy and works out and hopefully Ronnie Harrison continues to do his thing. Even if Greedy gets right and we resign Money Mitch, we still need another DB. Whether that is a FS (allowing Delpit to play strong and Harrison to be the 3rd "big nickle" guy) or a CB doesn't matter as much to me as the fact that we can't cover anyone right now. Heck, we probably need two guys.

I'm pretty down on the D-line at the moment. Vernon only seems to have 2 or 3 good games a year, Ogunjobi still hasn't progressed after 3 straight years as a starter and Richardson is due 13 million in the last year of his contract next year. We could use two guys here, too.

LBer- Probably our single biggest need, but I still think we just need the one guy to lead that group. Phillips may work out to be a good 2nd LBer. Wilson still might though my concern is growing. Takitaki still has his uses on running downs as the 3rd LBer. We just really need to find that one guy.

On offense, depending on what happens with Njoku and how OBJ looks when he gets back, we probably still need to raise the competition of the depth for our pass catchers.

I doubt we can properly address more than 4 of those in the draft. I guess we'll see.

With the injuries to both Delpit and Greedy (and the unknowns regarding bringing back Money Mitch or KJ), I'd say we should look in the 1st two rounds for DB help.
Same with D-Line. Vernon has disappointed, Ogunjobi is a FA who may not be worth what he wants and Richardson is in the last year of a large contract next year. So D-line also in the 1st two rounds (admittedly, I don't like this year's group of d-lineman so if we looked to Free Agents thaat would be just fine, too).

Hey, if Ceedee Lamb can fall to 17th, maybe Patrick Surtain II can too.

j/c:

I think we should extend everyone and let them play in the same system for 3 years before we evaluate them.

ain't no way in hell we should be extending Sendejo

uh... I think you have to be thinking of someone else?

he has played 38 snaps in 3 games on defense with 4 tackles and I think 2 of them were on special teams? He is boasting a 75% completion% when thrown against and one pass defense.

Phillips PFF grade is 44.2, which is really bad. Our best LBer has been Malcolm Smith, who is ranked 16th out of the 84 qualified LBers.

The name Malik Harrison ring a bell. lo

I believe Vers was implying our Home Grown players that we drafted or even UDFA.

Oh well yea I get that.

Buuuut I dunno about greedy, bro. He seems to be made out of glass.

I mean, sure we keep him next year abs let him compete, but I hope the FO doesn’t go into the offseason thinking this guy can be relied on.

When you have hit rock bottom there is no where to go but up. Therefore we can only go up from here.

J/c

Coaches can only do so much. I have a strong feeling that our LB and safeties are pretty pathetic. Like backup level guys at best.

But I also don’t know enough about football to know if Woods has been good or not

I have been impressed w/the offensive staff and Stefanski, but I am beginning to wonder about Woods. Kinda predictable.

it just seems we are so bad on the back end ... like we don’t press or disrupt any receivers AND we don’t cover ... so it’s like, we might as well try to jam them

No physicality

You are spot-on IMO. Our very best defensive player himself is not 'nasty-physical'. Our 2nd best defensive player is not physical at-all. Richardson is physical...maybe Harrison. I think Elliot and Philips will be physical when they aren't thinking too much or injured. Redwine and T Thomas are physical...and limited.

The rest of the guys are not nasty-physical by any stretch...but that doesn't mean they suck and should be replaced. However, where upgrades are necessary or in-process, we need to ramp up the physicality portion/importance of our talent evaluation scorecard.

I think our offense is much more physical than our defense.

Teller is at the top. Conklin might be next when he can be. Wills appears to be physical. Bitonio and Tretter are physical-enough (if not very) and are smart. Our WRs are excellent blockers...and RBs are all physical guys.

TEs? I think they are no-less-than adequate on the physicality-meter. Njoku probably holds that rating down more-so than he builds it up..which is odd.

Physicality on the defensive end is certainly not where it is for Pitt & Balt.

Good defenses have good LBs, we don't. Schobert was a good cover guy, but definitely not a physical player. Hope we get a thumper next year.

One has to only see the transformation of Teller from ehh to Pro Bowler to see that Great coaching and most important the willingness to be coached up technique wise and physically its all out there for anyone. So I still have hope for the young guys. Guys who are reaching 30 pretty much have written their career already.

jmho

I go crazy when we line up and give the offense like a 10 to 12 yard cushion, well beyond the needed gain line, and we are nowhere near to challenging receivers. Our zone is lousy and who knows when Sendejo might show up? The back of our D is not suspect. It is convicted and criminal.

Purple, if we give up on 3,4 and 5 round picks after a season or so we may as well trade the picks for whatever we can get for them. These guys need time to develop.

I'm not saying to give up on them, I'm saying that you cannot count on them. Keep reloading. None of them has shown themselves as capable, yet, of owning their respective jobs even at the level of "average NFL starter"... so, you keep investing.

If you end up with a tough decision down the road because too many guys developed, that's not a bad thing... you can then trade guys, or simply enjoy some ridiculous depth at bargain salaries.

It would certainly be HUGE if a LB or two from our squad could improve that much (Phillips, Wilson, or Taki)

I love me some Jo Sho...but IMO he was not "good" in coverage...he was just the least-bad guy that we had. I think guys like him are important to a team like ours...but not at that price...no way.

It seems that there is an unusually large number of really bad defenses this year. Like, there are a few good ones that can play both sides of the ball, and then there are like 27 teams tied for being the 31st Worst Defense, and I've been trying to figure out why, and how that affects what the Browns need to do. There seem to be a lot of one-sided teams: they're either great on offense but weak on defense, or the exact opposite.

Have the rule changes favoring Offenses finally gone THAT far where if you aren't good and balanced in both the Run & Pass, you're going to get shredded? Is it more because if a team is bad on offense, opponents can just milk clock, speed the game along, and not work their offense so hard to win, while an opponent facing a good offense has to turn it into a shootout to keep pace?

Does getting healthy and more talented on the back end take care of it all for us? Like, would the DLine be more effective if the back end of the D was buying them more time to get home, which would in turn force the Offenses to get the ball out faster and play a short game approach?... which, then is where having a decent Safety up helps a lot? Does that then reduce the responsibilites and the number of things our LBers have to pay attention to, thus making them more effective as they don't have to think as much?

Are the issues all talent, or is some of it between their ears and simply not playing fast, yet?

Excellent post just starting scouting but this year is loaded
with DBS maybe that was Berry was thinking about when they went offense.
Delpit will be one of the most physically gifted fs in the league when healthy.

thank you but considering his measurables are better than Hanford Dixon are best ever DB you can understand why I made that statement.

Is Greedy made out of glass? Can't beat the "Bust" debate on the bench. I had high hopes with him and Delpit available this year. Seems like all that has come to mean is next year will be better. We need some guys to play; I respect injuries, and hope they all return 100%. But show us results. The answer to the topic is that this disappointing defense certainly has upside for its next moves.

1. His measurables WERE better at one point.

2. Measurables as compared to someone that played 30 years ago means pretty much nothing.

3. He blew out his Achilles. It is FAR from certain that he will be able to play well enough to be a starter on this team, much less have a lasting career. It is far more likely that he will - at a minimum - simply NOT be as good as he was. The only real question is to what degree his abilities are diminished.

Saying that he WILL be anything is nothing but optimism and has no real basis in his current state.

I don't know... Greedy is an enigma.

Injured easily last year and then missing half the season this year with another injury from nowhere. It doesn't look good for him, that's for sure. Add in that he wasn't remotely as impressive as Ward was his rookie year and he struggled a bit and it isn't looking like the best selection we've ever made. It's probably way too early to label him a Bust, but we should definitely still be looking to add additional talent in the secondary to hedge our future.

The end result is that between him and Delpit, we have half our should-have-been-touted secondary unavailable. Those two guys with Ward SHOULD HAVE been formidable with a solid pass rush in front of them.

Instead, Pass Defense is probably the single biggest defects on this team.

j/c Denzel Ward:

Rookie year... only played 8 games
second year only played 12 games

absolutely stud!!

Greddy Williams
Rookie year... played 12 games
sophmore year... missed 8 games (so far)

the next Courtney Brown?

Denzel is stud because he's been able to get on the field and stay there this year, but he was in the exact same shoes last year when he went out. It was absolutely a "here we go again".

The difference here is that Ward now has 18 games in a row of playing, and has played at a high level the entire time.

Greedy has only participated in 50% of the games during his career thus far and the current streak is one of missing games and is only two games shy of last year's streak of being able to play, and when he played, he wasn't up to Ward's level.

So, yeah, when you look at "what have you done for me lately", it isn't a good look for Greedy.

to be fair, purple, Denzel was the #1 cb in the draft and picked in the top 5. Greedy was a mid 2nd round pick. I am not sure if any corners were picked ahead of him. So it would be rather surprising if greedy were performing at the same level. The injuries are a concern but hard to tell if it has been a fluke or it will be a chronic.

There has been a lot of talk on here about whether we should pick up baker’s option for year 5. We have to make the same call on Denzel and sign nick to an extension. Berry is going to earn his salary this offseason.

I thought Kirksay was the guy who got away!

We need bigger CBs...of course keep Ward put as much muscle as we can to save his body. Greedy could use around 20 lbs of muscle put on him. Currently he is 6'2" and 185. He would become a stud if he could manage to become 205 losing fat gaining muscle along with Speed. We got to keep drafting NUMBERS, mid-late rounds including UDFA's and get two-three to become good CBs. I always said you need 5 good WRs - Great hands and run great routes. Well guess what? You need 5 good CBs on the roster. Big fast and can tackle!

jmho

thanks for the discussion. Please leave any talk about the O on other threads.

Okay.

Defense blows, Kirksey was a decent piece when healthy, which was almost never. Good guy, but I’d forgotten about him already.

save for Ward, our back end mostly sucks, We are lucky if we force a punt, for gawd’s sake.

Kirksey was definitely decent, but two years in a row of torn pecs at his salary was sustainable. We need his level of play as our minimum standard.

Food for thought on our Defense this offseason:

Sheldon Richardson is going into his dreaded year 31. He is also on the last year of his contract and has already done the 1-year "rent-a-hulk" contracts that guys like Ndamunkong Sue now find themselves doing.

We all know that the 2021 cap will likely not exceed 180 million, so I doubt he would look forward to being released and try to sign a (likely) 8 million dollar 1-year deal (the same contract that Sue is signing year after year since his year 32).

Soooo...he's due 13.67 million in 2021. If released he would likely only be able to make "maybe" 23-24 million over the 2021-2023 league years.

Heck, if we kept him and paid him the 13.67, in 2022 he stills goes to rent-a-hulk status and makes, whet...15-16 million in total for 2022 and 2023?? That's still at best 29 million in 3 years for him.

Why don't we restructure his contract and add the 2 years? It would keep our best veteran DT on the team and save quite a bit of money.

3-years, 30 million (Richardson makes more than he would otherwise either way and gets to stay in one place)

2021 Cap: 9.5 Million (more than he'd likely get in this upcoming FA period and 4+ million less than his current cap hit for 2021) Win, win.
2022 Cap: 9.5 million (still more than he would likely pull in his year 32 as a rent-a-hulk and the 4.17 million saved in 2021 rolls over for Cleveland so this is closer to a 5 million dollar deal for the front office when it's all balanced).
2023 Cap 11 Million: Richardson's year 33. Even if he gets released, it is also the year the cap is expected to expand with thee new TV deals to some 248 million. Meaning he would be in a better spot to try to make money on his end and the Browns would be able to laugh off any 2-ish million in dead money. Bonus, if he is still playing solid, 11 or so million would actually be a cheap deal under the new 2023 cap.

Just saying

Further food for thought:

If Brees doesn't retire there is no way the Saints can keep Marshon Lattimore on his 5th year option (even if it is only 10 million).

The Browns come to their "rescue" and offer a 3rd, maybe?

Get him back to Ohio.

would recommend just drafting a replacement first there are some real studs in the draft.

I really hope we address our back 7 the same way we addressed the offensive line. Bring in one or two impact free agents. Let Harrison be the Hubbard type who is a great backup and decent rotational safety. I would like to get another good FA LB, but I feel like our FO and Woods both don't value that position. Prioritize the rest in the draft.

With the type of ball-control offense Stefanski runs, a hard nose defense is so very essential. Right now, we're caught in a weird dynamic because we have a high-powered rushing offense and a defense that gives up boku points. It doesn't seem like the two should co-exist, but hey, we've won five games so far.

That all sounds factual, actual, and sensible to me, Purp. I have not seen the "should be's" out there flying around like I wanted to. Like you, I thought a pass rush from this front would be more forgiving and help the youngsters back there to make up for some of the margins of error that happen with the lack of experience. I do know that Greedy did not overly wow me, and didn't look overly eager to tackle in support.
I guess these CBs are pricey to be part-time roster. Get them healthy, drive them around for awhile. But I think maybe I am kicking some more tires in case this takes too long to make us viable and able to meet our needs. Our corners might help more if bigger.

where did you pick up this " boku " ? And I thought it was buku ..lol

yeah, they are literally both just in the same boat at the same points in their careers.that's all I was saying.

Gosh, I think you're right...I think its my memories of those old juice boxes from grade school.

its neither..lol, its booku

The real question is what do we do now?

Off season Berry will address the defense.

Right now Wood has to deal with the current roster.

Against the Raiders the DL got blown off the line. Our linebackers failed to either pick the right gap to fill or could not shed the block.

Because of the Raider game film and expected weather Sunday. We should expect they will try to run at us.

Watson can extend plays and run the ball.

The players we have - are all we have. I don't know enough about guys like Tae Davis and Jacob Phillips.

What I do know is winning will be hard if we continue the pattern of not stopping the run. Not being able to get off the field on third downs.

Ward and Mitchell are doing their jobs. Kevin Johnson acting as a slot corner. I am not seeing him show up much in run support.

Harrison has proven to be a good add and is now the starter.

What appears to be missing is linebacker support. Taki was billed as run stuffer? Have not seen him do much. Wilson was hurt and has played poorly since returning. Goodson a one year band-aid has done little. Malcolm Smith is listed as Wilson's back-up. He seems like the only guy who has instincts.

I really don' know what Woods can do? He has to come up with something because the results have been clear.

Other than going with a 5-2, I honestly have no idea.

j/c

Watching TJ Carrie have a great game in the Colts D as they are beating the Titans makes me think you can improve without changing players.

I picked up the word in The Nam..lol .. booku dinky dow .. ( spelling )

Derived from:
beaucoup: many (It's French)

dien cai dau: crazy (Vietnamese)

Yeah, he did have a nice game.

"Mercy Beaucoup" Heard it all the time by a basketball player from Aliquippa, PA back in college.

Larry Ogunjobi being used far more as a run-stuffer? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought he was more of a penetrator/rusher (if we have to categorize him)(?).

I would agree with you. He was always a penetrator, and one of my biggest knocks against him has been gap discipline. He often picks a gap and shoots it. Occasionally he is right, but a lot of times, he is disastrously wrong.

Picks,or assigned?
If it is his assigned gap and he shoots it,that would be the definition of gap integrity.

And you sir are right on.. ding , ding ..

Picks. I think he gets overly aggressive and gambles.

Not disagreeing with you here just throwing this out there.

How much is scheme?

I personally would like to see a more attacking style of defense. Why?

I hate getting chewed up slowly, it eats my guts out. Man up outside with tight coverages and attack and pray you get there before they can get anything off. To me this beats the hell out of slow death.

Not saying I am right here, but we I think are playing the defense we want to without the ability to execute the plan. Even so if you believe in just 4 guys applying pressure you have to cover long enough for them to get there? Some of it is how offenses play today picks are legal now when in the past they were called. In man coverage situation a pick can be devastating.

Also a well executed offensive play is nearly impossible to stop. The best I think is to hit the QB enough that he starts seeing ghosts (pressure that may not be there). That's when any defense is at it's best. This defense is horrible, no nice way to say it.

I also understand the value of NOT tipping off a style of play until it matters more than say a regular season game does. Football is about strategy and counter moves and adjustments, we all get that. Sometimes you keep things under wraps for critical moments?

I have seen on a very few occasions this defense go to a more attacking style with mixed results.

FWIW......we blitzed on the majority of snaps in the second Bengal game and Burrow exploited that and tore us up. Early on, we did not blitz much, but then we went crazy w/it.

Myles is a amazing talent but it can not be all him.

There are ways to neutralize a single player. You won't stop him but you can work around him.

Richardson is solid. Vernon and Larry are ok but not exceptional in any way.

We are not getting the production from the linebacker unit. Not in run support or in coverage.

There is no magic. Guys have to play better.

What we really need is a three down all pro level MIKE. A real talent that can crash the line and play from sideline to sideline, In addition be able to drop and cover in zone.

We don't have that player. So, the unit needs to play better.

Bone I agree we may not have that player just yet but again maybe we have that player in the making. I believe Jacob Phillips can be that type of player with maturity and more experience. That description you mentioned sounded a lot like his draft report. It's too bad he has been injured but when he's played he looked good.

I agree we have to do something different on D. Our coaches may feel we don't have the personnel to be an attacking d I don't know but we can't continue doing what we have been it's not working. The Raiders game was a slow death. We couldn't get off the field and because of it our O only had the ball 6 times. We held them to 16 points. It's a game we could have easily won.

Of the three loses the Raider game was the most frustrating.

We did not make the plays that were there to be made on offense. And the defense got pushed around.

Yes, that game was winnable.

Phillips? I know that he was a guy that there was high hopes for. However, one he is a rookie and two he has not played because of injury.

Maybe he will develop? I don't know but I don't expect much from him this year.

Wilson was supposed to be a contributor this year. It has not happened. I don't know if he is working himself back to condition from his injury?

But he has graded out at the bottom of his position group.

I am not under the impression that football in general is complicated. These guys are coached. I mean down to minutiae. Eye in the sky doesn't lie. It is a matter of getting it done.

Great football players know how to play. They prepare endlessly. You have to win individual battles. You have to have instincts for plays as it happens.

At least we are "in it." So many years come Thanksgiving you are already looking at the draft for saviors.

I don't know how this year will go? All I know is what you want to see happen from the players on the team.

Will it happen? All I can do is cheer for them.

I guess we agree down the line. This game can demonstrate what got fixed or at least improved over bye week. Do some things differently on D! We have not been effective, and couldn't get off the field as they pushed the ball down the field last game. If you are not winning individual wars, change up, fail in new ways. I do not see improvement overall. More should be questioned if a different answer or solution is required. Part of the fix has been left on the sidelines. Frustrating to watch bad ball, and I am taking into account the players who are not dominating, but They should be getting better at something. Not yet. If nothing else, use the games for practice on some new directions. We need a win Sunday.

You noticed that too. Crazy people think sorta alike I guess.

And no it didn't work, but nothing else did either.

Give me a Mike and someone who lays the wood and watch this defense go to the next level.

For the record I love Richardson, he plays hard and is all over the field. I think he is a difference maker, then again I am not looking for DT's to get great pressure, just keep the LB clean and don't get pushed around. But Richardson by and large is one of our best (IMO) defenders, hustle, hustle, hustle. I respect the hell out of his game.

Oh and we could make a hell of a lot of improvement if we were a better tackling team. Go belt buckle to below the knees constantly. The high hitters miss to many tackles. Go low. Stop trying to blow people up and take the easiest way to get them on the ground. That isn't talent IMO either it's technique.

You and I are on the same page. it all starts with scheme or defensive philosophy if you will.. Talk to DAVE about how to build a baseball Team , and he will tell you up the middle first .. I FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT FOOTBALL.

Have stated many times on my pick of Malik Harrison in the draft. Thought hr was a plug and watch grow kinda Middle LB .. Didn't want Delpit at safety .. beat up last and this running a 4/2..

Technique is important and that is what coaches harp on.

It was refreshing to listen to the Teller press conference. Really humble hard working guy. Coaches love players like him because he is "coachable." He knows where improvement is needed. Yet here is a guy who has graded out as the best guard this year. Going into this year RG was a ?

Well that question has been answered.

So yes players can improve technique. Technique wins more individual battles than strength.

Honestly, I am really trying like hell to enjoy this year. For years all I wanted for Christmas was to be in the playoff hunt. To be relevant when it mattered most.

A slow and steady assent with no expectations that it's going to take 5 minutes to fix.

Of all the seasons this is also the 1st I remember where fans weren't constantly rallying around the idea we need to fire everyone. Things are settling down, the focus is on getting better and winning their is a steady hand guiding the team and it shows.

We are getting there, we knew we were likely to need more pieces before any of this began we knew, and for the 1st time I remember fans are being laid back and enjoying the changes and the feeling of a steady assent.

We aren't there yet, and I expect set backs followed by at least some frustration but I think everyone gets the feeling that our best days are ahead.

You might have those 2 guys with Delpit and Phillips. I'm not saying we do but the potential is there if Delpit recovers from his injury and Phillips realizes his full potential. The talent is there.

I agree. Listening to the players over this bye week has been interesting.

Apparently the coaches really broke down the first eight games. Then they gave the players important areas that needed improvement. What worked. What didn't. The changes the staff are going to make going forward.

The overall vibe has been noteworthy.

KS seems to earning the trust of the players. That will go a long ways over the next eight games and next year.

Players want to win. Players want to get better and prove themselves to the coaches. When coaches can communicate to the players how they can improve; they listen if they believe in the coaches.

Woods I don't know about?

KS, Van Pelt, and Callahan have done a damn good job.

I am not defending or prosecuting Woods, but you can't not notice he has a lack of talent to work with, nor can you miss the lack of even minor improvement.

He is indeed a huge ? at this point.

I've been saying this for three weeks now.

2 punts in 3 games cannot be explained by lack of talent alone.

Just for grins I looked at a mock draft to see if there were any linebacker prospects in the 20's.

At 21 Walter Football had Miami taking linebacker Micah Parsons from Penn State.

I watched this highlight reel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pALaLOjXZ1U


Pretty impressive. In what I call a "monster Mike" I look for size and speed. A guy with great instincts. Want to see him shed blockers. Want acceleration to the runner both in the gaps and to the sidelines.

Explosive closing speed. And a sure tackler not necessarily the big hitter but a guy who does not miss.

Has to be a three down player. So, he has to be able to drop into coverage. Read well. Anticipate throwing lanes. On occasion be able man cover a tight end.

A great linebacker period.

Just a first look at Micah Parsons but he looks impressive.

Parsons is a freak. He has some character issues and red flags, but he’s a definite target for a LB needy team

"Merci" beaucoup perhaps?

First time even looking at a draft board.

So lots of time and who knows when we pick or if Parsons is there.

We need a standout on that level in the middle. If we are going to have a lot of looks with two LB's one has to be a real stud.

Either we find a proven free agent or strike gold in the draft.

What I do know is if you "PENETRATE" the A Gaps you will disrupt any run between the tackles. This was the plan displayed by the Steelers. Attack the A gaps and secure the outside. Works well if a team passes the ball also.

I would like to see us attack the A gaps more. 1 by Larry the other by a LB.

jmho

That would be us wouldn't it

I don't see Parsons getting out of the top 12, off-ball LB or not. It would take at least a 4th round pick to move up to get him depending on where we end up. JMO.

Way to early right?

Never saw the guy before yesterday looking on Walter Football that he went 21 to Miami.

So I have no idea at all about the draft. Just the need and who might be there.

I would also look at DT. Then in the end take BPA.

Totally open at this stage. Lot can happen before the draft.

Those guys cost high draft picks.

I counted 10 attributes on you want list, I think you’re going to have to be satisfied with 5-6, in this draft/FA.

Interesting side note: Emmanuel Ogbah is only 1.5 sacks behind Myles Garrett and 1.0 behind TJ Watt and Aaron Donald.

That is an eye opener. Just never thought Ogbah was keeping company in that group. MG still leads the way, and is earning an elite reputation.

But when you have Miles Garrett on your team it's overlooked

Lots of time to fill up off season.

Right now trying to savor where we are.

I think he had 5 or 6 in one game a couple of weeks ago. Kind of a freak game kind of thing.

You can't discount how Flores has his team playing though either.

Sorry that's not accurate. He's just been slowly stacking them like Myles.

Ogbah was yet another victim of team instability and turnover.

#notarealfootballplayer

Yup.
He was one of the guys let go by Dorsey in Hue's last year here, wasn't he?

Just checked. The most he's had in a game this year is 2. Also found out his nickname is The Nigerian Nightmare.

i live in florida and they LOVE ogbah here..as much as Cleveland loves Myles.. he's the one that got away for sure. Now we sit here looking for exactly him to be opposite myles and we had him

Delpit might have other issues to deal with....so might the Browns- allegations he taped a girl having sex as LSU without her consent. I sure hope our background guys dig deep for this kind of stuff before we use high draft pick on them. Hoped we learned from Johnny "Money fingers"...there is more to just playing ball. I'm positive Coach S wants to know if any of the allegations are true....maybe he never plays a down for Browns!!! Hope it's all baloney, but story sure sounded like LSU takes care of its athletes like FSU. Go Browns!!!

Don't forget about the Phillips rape allegation.

I can't believe that guys in college, especially jocks, could do such a thing!!!

Can't believe it either, was your daughter involved. Hope not, high character guys doing right thing on our team these days according to Head Coach and GM, wonder what they're thinking now....GO Browns!!!

Talking about the one who got away...egads did we blow that one The curse of REGIME CHANGE.
They seem to always do away with the previous regimes contributions...smh

Curse of the regime change indeed. Ogbah was looking very 'meh' when we let him go. I think it's more a victim of scheme change (via regime change) than just regime change. Ogbah netted us Eric Murray... who we let walk either this offseason or last. Who wouldn't kill for an Eric Murray right about now?

or an Emmanuel Ogbah.

Can't fault the team too much on Ogbah.

He was only a rotational player for the Chiefs s last year as well and they let him walk. Good for him that he is doing well, but the NFL only allows QB's (sometimes) to take more than 3 years to develop. It is what it is.

I would not commit homicide for another dlineman. A serviceable FS, though....

I think Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah, out of Notre Dame is looking more realistic for us. I always see Parsons projected going top 10.

And then there are the edge rushers. Gregory Rousseau, out of Miami (FL) and Joseph Ossai, out of Texas. But I see these guys projected all over the place. Just too early.

I've been kinda digging Patrick Jones II's motor as an edge guy. But he's definitely a day 2 prospect.

Non off the edge guys seem to have actually developed their pass-rush moves this year. It's annoying.

Then again, we may have to get a CB really early, so...

Browns options for replacing injured CB Denzel Ward

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/lists/browns-options-for-replacing-injured-cb-denzel-ward/


Already down one projected starting cornerback for the entire 2020 season, the Cleveland Browns must now scramble to replace the other starter. And with Denzel Ward now out for at least a couple of games, the Browns find themselves in need of filling a chasmic hole without its top player in the secondary.

Ward is not only the Browns best cover man and playmaker at cornerback, he’s one of the best in the entire NFL. Replacing him will not be simple. The Browns do have some options borne out of necessity, however.

Here are some ideas for how the Browns can replace Ward at the outside CB spot opposite Terrance Mitchell for a few weeks.

Kevin Johnson

Johnson will certainly play a primary role in replacing Ward. The question is, where?

The veteran has been the Browns’ primary slot/nickel corner all season. He hasn’t exactly been great, surrendering 20 completions on 25 targets and allowing a QB Rating against of 96.3, per Pro Football Focus.

However, Johnson is at his best playing inside. Keeping him in the slot would allow one less moving part in the mechanics of the secondary, one that struggles to work well together even when Ward is playing his Pro Bowl best outside. Johnson is the best slot option on the team and probably should stay there.

Tavierre Thomas

Thomas was the proverbial “next man up” earlier this season when Johnson was out or slowed with injuries. Like Johnson, Thomas played almost exclusively in the slot.

The best way to lay out the case for, or rather against, Thomas playing more is that he hasn’t played a single snap on defense since Week 4. He was consistently a step late in coverage and doesn’t have the fluid athleticism needed to hang with most receivers inside. PFF pegged Thomas for giving up 19 receptions on 22 targets and a QB Rating allowed of 112.1.

Playing outside could be a better option. Thomas is physical and one of the best tacklers on the team.

M.J. Stewart

Stewart has barely played for the Browns this year, his first in Cleveland. He’s logged just four snaps over three games since a rough outing against Dallas in Week 4, when he gave up two easy completions and missed a tackle.

He too has primarily been a slot corner. If the choice is to play Johnson outside, Stewart in the slot becomes a more likely option. Stewart just doesn’t have the speed or acceleration to hang with the faster options on the outside.

A.J. Green

The prized member of the Browns’ undrafted rookie class of 2020, Green has yet to make a dent in Cleveland. He’s been on the practice squad all year, seeing exactly one snap when elevated to play in Week 3.

Green should be at least in line for an elevation this week. At 6-1 with lanky arms, he’s the longest CB on the roster. If the Browns are looking to get him some game action to see what they’ve got in the rookie from Oklahoma State, Jacksonville is about as optimal of a place to make a more substantial debut as possible. In college and during the Senior Bowl week, Green was at his best in tight press-man, which isn’t something the Browns do a lot

Robert Jackson

Jackson has yet to play a defensive rep in 2020 and saw the field for just one snap in 2019 on defense. The hirsute corner makes his living on special teams.

Jackson has size and some hitting ability that are more in line with a safety than a cornerback. In fact, he played safety in high school and college before transitioning to outside cornerback at the end of his UNLV career. Jackson struggled in the 2019 preseason with holding and grabbing.

This article has it all wrong. You don't just slot in a replacement for Ward (and expect to succeed). His absence has to be covered by scheme. We have to come up with (a lot of) ways to confuse the QB and/or juice our pass rush. Slotting in backup/practice squad level guys and expecting them to fill the shoes of a guy that's pacing the league's best isn't a recipe for success.

So what do you all think the deal is with the D-line (and really front 7) having their best overall game last week without Garrett? I know the Eagles O-line is not that good, but after the Raiders game, I would have said that our D-line had major issues, then they come out without Garrett and play a game like that? makes no sense to me.

You will certainly never convince me that we are worse off with Garrett on the field than without, but it makes me wonder is are we playing less disciplined with Garrett or doing things to set up Garrett for the big play that actually putting the rest of the D at a disadvantage?

Coincidental and just a function of the weather.
Also, Garrett is just THAT fast. On some of those sacks, while the guys that got the sacks got them, if Garrett was in there, he likely just would have been there first.

1. Eagles really are THAT bad (1st in getting their QB smacked, I believe?)
2. Our guys up front answered the call

I was really thinking more in terms of the run game. If you look at the loss in the Pittsburg and Las Vegas games, it was the inability to stop the run in the second half that really stood out to me, and the weather was really bad against Las Vegas as well. Philadelphia has a better running game than Las Vegas and both games were similarly close in the second half, but Las Vegas controlled the line of scrimmage in the 4th quarter and absolutely stole that game from us because the d-line could not stop the run to save their lives. Against Phili, it was the polar opposite. The D-line controlled the line of scrimmage which forced Wentz into tough positions on 3rd down. That was just my perception from watching the game. It felt like the D-line was winning in 1st and 2nd down. They were eating up blocks and allowing the linebackers to get after things more. That is what it seemed like to me at least.

I've noticed that we've changed our scheme, as well, after the bye. In the first half of the season, it seemed like we were trying to get upfield, but this would often leave a ton of running lanes, and just plainly wasn't getting results.

In the past two games against the Texans and the Eagles, I've noticed that we are much more focused on gap integrity and more of a bend-don't-break.

It seems like we're giving up big hits in the backfield in order to keep mobile QBs in the pocket while closing in, and we seem to want our DT's to stay in position, rather than penetrating and leaving the back half of our defense exposed to opposing OL.

JMHObservations.

That difference is the fact that Philly's OLine blows and the Raiders' OLine simply out-beefed us.

Hospital Ward at it again I see.

You mean the OL that has 3 Pro Bowlers - Kelce, Johnson, and Peters?

Past Pro Bowls don't indicate how a player is playing during the 2020 season. If you watched that game and thought the Eagles offensive line was anything but terrible then I don't know what to say.

I could say Wentz absolutely sucked in that game. I could say that the CLE DL was excellent that game. I could say that Kelce had some elbow injury which made him essentially 1 armed.

Have Ward or Garrett ever played a full season?

not yet, no.

I'm not saying this is what you are doing - but I get really irked by fans who use injuries in a way to try and belittle or demean players. Someone did it the other day saying Ward misses games every 2 or 3 games he plays.... the stats show he has played something like 90-100% of defensive snaps in all but one game this year. I mean look at Haden - he had a couple plagued seasons with the Browns and we dumped him and since he's been playing well for the Steelers ever since.

Garrett HAS played a full season - 2018.

Just thinking out loud..

IF Greedy has a debilitating nerve injury that cannot be resolved (and honestly, we don't know what the problem is) wouldnt we have already granted him outright injury settlement and release?

I would say that OL problems have been at the core of Philly's problems this year.

Cleveland Browns defensive end Olivier Vernon was named the AFC Defensive Player of the Week on Wednesday.

The honor comes after Vernon posted three sacks, including one that resulted in a safety, of quarterback Carson Wentz in Cleveland’s 22-17 win over the Philadelphia Eagles.

As someone who has dealt with nerve issues for over 2 decades, they can be incredibly difficult to resolve sometimes.

I speak from experience.

I had a nerve impingement in my right shoulder. I went to several different doctors, and found no relief. Finally my doctor sent me to a surgeon, who immediately saw the issue. One surgery later, and I haven't had any problems with that issue since. The pursuit of it was incredibly frustrating, but once it was fixed, it was fixed.

Hopefully Greedy is at the end of the process, and has found answers.

awesome! He was huge for us

That's exactly what I'm doing.

It's annoying as a fan when your best players can't stay on the field. It doesn't mean I'm not a fan of either guy or going to bang the table for a trade or anything stupid like that. But if your goal is to compete for championships you need your best players to play. I feel Garrett and Ward are not dependable. Always holding your breath week to week wondering if they are going to play. Hell, Garrett is taking drives off in games for getting nicked and Ward plays an entire game, makes the game winning play, everything seems fine, and all of a sudden he's sidelined for several weeks. Really important weeks. I'm also bummed that Garrett's absence probably cost him DPOY. I'd like to see a Brown grab one of these awards.

As a fanatic, I am 100% demeaning them for not being available to help the team win and accomplish their goals. It's always something with those two. And we need them. If we don't make the playoffs due to their absences that's going to suck.

Well most of the Schemes available is us playing ZONE. But if we blitz and without Garrett we probably will have to and should. Our corners will have to play MAN.

How difficult was that surgery and what was the recovery like?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

After the surgery, I woke up in a chair. The doctor gave me my post surgery instructions and a prescription for pain medicine. I asked, "What pain. It's gone".

I had bone tissue removed, and a nerve re-routed in my shoulder. I had zero strength at first. I had this exercise where I laid on my back with a 1# weight in my hand, and was supposed to lift my hand up as high as I could, in an arc, and to go as high as I could, even over my head if possible. First time I got the weight about 5" off the table I had laid down on. I asked the doc if he had chained the darn thing down, or something.

Nonetheless, my shoulder came back quickly in function and without pain. I would say that within 2 months my shoulder was fully healed, and was probably twice as strong as it had been before the surgery. (it had been a fairly long debilitation)

I should add that this shoulder was done with a scope. (4 entrance points)

I wanted to puke when, after coming out of the anesthesia, the doctor gave me full color pictures of the inside of my shoulder.

Thanks for the insight.

I had rotator cuff and labrum surgeries on my right shoulder (throwing arm). Now my left shoulder for last 3 months feels worse. I think it is nerve related which is why I asked. Don't real feel like going through another surgery, however.

Some of it could also be that our guys are finally playing more freely in the new D. We have to remember, new systems on both sides of the ball with not much off-season work and zero PS games. I think it is a miracle we have played so well under such circumstances. Perhaps our D is starting to just play and not having to think as much in the new D? Just a thought... peace

I definitely think there’s something to that. Guys can think too much on defence instead of just reading and reacting without hesitation. Even a Half-step faster is a big difference.

Could be. I just wish we had everyone healthy so we could really see what we have on D.

Not much ..

Disagreee WATER.

With our starting secondary and Wilson and Jacobs growing into their roles, we could be respectable on D. I personally would seriously consider trading up for Micah Parsons in the draft, depending on how far he falls, and adding a couple plus-level DL pieces. With those moves, the D could make a HUGE leap next year.

And you didn't even mention Grant Delpit, who is going to be like adding another new 2nd round pick to whoever we draft next year and I know that in camp folks were very high on how he was doing before he got hurt..

And then Greedy Williams, I heard he might be back by week 6 of the 2023 season.

Our biggest challenge this offseason is figuring out who to re-sign on the DL. As I understand it, Myles is the only starter under contract for next year.

Sheldon Richardson is under contract as well

And we get Andrew Billings back the DT we signed in free agency who opted out.
If I remember correctly, he's a beast against the run.

Bottom line with 3 or 4 additions on D next year along with all the players we have out injured coming back we might be pretty darn good in "21

Yeah, he is a good run stuffer. We also have Elliott who is a rotational guy. Big Larry and Vernon will need signed or replaced.

Greedy and Delpit's injuries situations make them huge ? going forward. It could very well be that neither makes it back to 100%.

That's what my crystal Ball is telling me.

Lance Armstrong?

Hope he wants to get in, buy in, and dominate. It might improve our linebackers.

Go, Browns!

#Browns  Linebacker, Sione Takitaki, has stepped up big in his 2nd year.

Sione's Run-Defense Grade of 85.4 is 3rd among LBs in the #NFL .

Takitaki ranks 17th among LBs with an Overall Grade of 66.0, per @PFF.

He is currently 5th on the @Browns in Total Tackles (45). 💥

I would not have guessed this.

Good perspective. Not having him last week may have changed things for the worse. Hopefully he’s back for sure this weekend

Those are PFF numbers. I’m not sure how accurate they are considering we only play him around 30% of the plays.

So on 70% of our plays he has made no mistakes.

I'm right 100% of the time I am not wrong

"60% of the time it works every time."

Hindsight is 50-50.

Ewww...almost a 20 point swing between his run defense and overall grade? For a 3rd LBer who plays mostly running situations? How bad do they rate his pass defense? Dang.

Not sure about Taki-Taki or Wilson, but as the season has gone on, I've gotten to the point that I'm OK with BJ Goodson in our LB corps. He's always hustling to the ball, and is probably our best coverage backer. He's the type of guy that we've let go in the past...because...he's just a guy. We seem to just tread water with these average players. I think he could end up being a nice, cheap, complementary piece, if we can get a few more quality players playing behind him (healthy LSU players, please?) and in front of him.

Goodson is the only LB that we got that has experience...of course the OLD guy from Seahawks Smith? has experience but he is on a short rep count.

Taki Taki actually has been surprising me lately and I think he's getting better and better with each game. Keep an eye on him

I think when we get that interior dude from Cinci back and add 1 more guys along the Dline, as well as patch our secondary (Greedy magically comes back and is gtg, and we find a FS), then our LB corps suddenly becomes very very serviceable.

For as maligned as they were to start the season, they're turning out to be much much further down the list of things that need to be addressed.

We have another year to evaluate Taki-Taki (and Wilson) without a problem. Worst case is one/both become depth. I was speaking of Goodson since he will be a FA. Which got me to thinking who else we should resign on defense...FA's (with names you've heard of) are:

DL - Vernon, Gustin, Ogunjobi

LB - Goodson, Smith, Tae Davis

DB - Mitchell, Johnson, Joseph, Tavierre Thomas, Tedric Thompson, Robert Jackson

Although I would like to see a defense where few of these guys are starting, that's a lot to replace in 1 year (currently 5 starters). I think Ogunjobi and Joseph (can you believe dude is only 27?!) are nearly must keeps, Goodson and Mitchell are those middle class guys I'd rather have over replacement-level players, and probably Gustin, Tae Davis, and Tav Thomas should be kept, too, since they're all young with some upside.

Fortunately, we can probably afford to keep several of these guys, as we don't have a lot of players on O to decide on...Higgins and Hodge, basically. Oh, and Parkey.

Vernon needs to be replaced, but that's going to be tough. Starting level ends don't grow on trees. I have no idea what it's going to take to hang onto Ogunjobi, but as Baker looks better and better, we need to start to worry (happily) about our cap with a fQB, and start planning our signings a few years ahead.

Many of our DBs are guys that will look better once they're bumped back down the depth chart.

I suspect that is the reason we didn't go after big name free agents some were advocating, with an eye on future payroll needs.

OOBER,
Vernon needs replaced, as you said, but probably the best shot is if DE is the clear BPA in round 1 of this draft. Otherwise, we're probably going to get worse there before we get better. But I think we can afford to pay the ones I mentioned...none of them are playing lights out and will command huge contracts.

W8,
I agree with that. Though I have some faith that DePo will keep us on track. We will lose guys...it is inevitable. e.g. As much as we love Chubb and Hunt together, we've got to let Hunt go. And the only time I'd want to take on a big contract is before the trade deadline next season, in the case that we are looking like SB contenders and have a glaring hole (like a Sendejo).

Did Vernon even play yesterday?

His name wasn't called once.

He is USELESS!

[u][/u]

coaching staff would argue with you

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/spor...ans/3859258001/

Defensive end Olivier Vernon is often overlooked while lining up opposite Browns star Myles Garrett.

But in the past two victories, Vernon has been the defense’s ironman.

Vernon played all 72 snaps in Sunday’s 41-35 road victory over the Tennessee Titans and saw action in 96.9% (55) of the snaps the previous week in a home triumph over the Philadelphia Eagles.

“I’m glad you brought him up,” Browns coach Kevin Stefanski said Monday on Zoom. “We only had three defensive ends up yesterday, so we knew and he knew that it was going to be a full day’s effort. I can’t say enough about him from a standpoint of just constantly going.

Vernon, 30, missed Games 2-3 with an abdominal injury, but stands second on the Browns in sacks with five. He was named AFC Defensive Player of the Week against the Eagles with three sacks (tying his career-high), a safety, five tackles and a pass defensed in the absence of Garrett, their sack leader with 10.5.

That's a bit telling.

Vernon should probably be resigned for 2 years and we can develop someone behind him. I"m not sure we will be able to get someone better than him.

He has a 72.1 rating He is 28th with 5 sacks.

7-10 sacks a year from a DE opposite Garrett is good!

I would try to sign him as long as the contract is fair for us. He is injury prone and has missed games every year.

PFF linebacker run defense grade rankings:

1. SEA Bobby Wagner - 88.4

2. #Browns  Sione Takitaki - 87.5

Wait doesnt he suck

Continue to improve and get healthy...

One game at a time...

J/C

IMO opinion, the secondary needs the biggest overhaul. I'm unsure about Greedy's recovery. I would like to see the team get another well regarded CB in the draft. A free agent option could be Brian Poole of the Jets. I have some hope that a kid like AJ Green who we signed as a UDFA could also contribute next year. The FS position is a big question going forward, although I think Delpit will recover and solve that problem. As an aside, Sendejo has been marginally adequate these past few games. It seems that this late-season period was why we acquired him. Hope that statement doesn't blow up in my face, lol.

A healthy Ronnie Harrison will help us also. That would stabilize the SS position and give us options come draft time.

I know the presumption is that the analytic faction won out when Stefanski was hired. Many of you say that accounts for the diminished value placed on the LBs. There is a first-round LB candidate who I believe would tie the front and the secondary together so that Woods could get this entire defense elevated to a top ten unit. Zaven Collins I think he goes 6'3, 260 Lbs.

If we can't resign Ogunjobi, I think a player like Dalvin Tomlinson currently of the NYG and formerly of Alabama would look good next to Richardson.

Above all else, we have smart people running the franchise and its showing up on the field.

I think we will need 2 LB's and 1 DT next year. Possibly, a DE if Vernon walks and 1 DB. to replace Mitchell and have someone better for the slot.

If Vernon gets 1 more sack each game... thats an 8 sack season opposite the Garrett. He is at a respectable 5 now. 7 would be better.


How much wi it cost to resign him? Should we resign him before the season ends?

Re-sign = good
Resign = bad

Vernon shouldn't cost too much because of his age and production. We need him back at this point.

I supported Vernon and the return from him was minimal. I turned on him and started bagging on him, and he's been playing pretty well ever since.

I know what I need to do...

" I know the presumption is that the analytic faction won out when Stefanski was hired. Many of you say that accounts for the diminished value placed on the LB "

My question is , how well has that plan worked out ? In fact just how well has the Joe woods ( Wilks part two ) Defense been working ? I would average against low level teams and meh against play off caliber ones ..

To make matters worse you have one , I say one quality starting CB in Wars who will never give you a full season.

The offense got addressed last offseason, the defensive roster will get caught up in the next offseason. We also had key losses on that side of the ball in the preseason. Between Greedy and Ward, yes... we need 1 more starting caliber CB. We need to make sure we have at least 1 corner that can at least make an attempt at challenging the other team's main receiver. Last night, we didn't have anyone that could do that. While the discipline in executing the defense left a lot to be desired last night (which is on the players AND coaches), you gotta give Woods the benefit of the doubt when the best FS he has is Sendejo.

Random thought: seeing Sendejo running around out there in Randall's old number makes me mad.

" give Woods the benefit of the doubt " .. Can't ! .. To many players completely out of position to be involved in plays. huge areas open from start to finish on plays. agree on lack of talent . That part is on the FO.

Taking THROWLONG's approach to fandom, I see.

If it works...

We didn't lose because we couldn't cover their WRs. Their top WR had 2 catches for 50 yards and 44 of those yards and a TD came on a busted play where Jackson eluded the blitz and the WR improvised and we would have had to maintain coverage for about 8 seconds with no safety help because we blitzed.. that's a big ask for ANY CB. In fact their only 2 or 3 big receptions were all busted plays.

That's my problem with Woods .. Play for Lamar's wheels , not his arm .. Talented Linebackers with speed would help !

This defense needs DBs like Ward, Greedy, and Delpit and a DT like Andrew Billings.

It still needs more DBs on top of those, and it still needs more on the DLine and a 4-down stud in the LB corps... but, next season will be like getting a couple of season's worth of upgrades all at once.

Agreed. I think people forget we are literally missing our entire starting defensive backfield. I get the "next man up" mentality and all, but it only goes so far when 4/11 starters are supposed to be backups.

We aren't that far off. We can win and beat ANY team in the league right now. I can't wait for the playoffs.

that was my thought.. if we can get players healthy going into next year, maybe a sign a good FA or two, and add a couple high draft pick players to the defense, it could look significantly different.

Absolutely PRPL.

We are going to see a much tougher schedule next year, but I do think we can expect a similar W-L record for a few reasons, one of which is that we will get a lot of D help...like 4-5 starters worth. And depending how well Baker is able to assimilate Odell back into the offense, he may be a trade chip to get another plus-level D starter.

Agreed. Also, if we had Ward, Billings, Greedy and Delpit playing I'm sure our D would be much better now. You add those guys plus the draft and FA period and we could have a top 10-15 D next year.

What NFC division are we playing next year?

I'll answer my own ? I believe it's the NFC north and the AFC west. A little tougher schedule.

That is correct.

Division Games
NFC North
AFC West

And if the season ended today, we would also play the Colts and the Dolphins

I think we also are in dire need of a legit on the field leader. We have guys on our roster than can 'make plays' like Myles and Ward, but who's the guy that sets the tone for the defense? The guy who keeps everyone focused and locked on?

I saw enough flashes of success to believe that we had a solid plan that could have slowed Lamar down if not stop him. Yes our Def was outmatched but in that situation its more important than ever to remain disciplined. They are capable of it. Remaining disciplined is how they shut down Henry last week.

Right now I don't know who that guy is.

I completely forgot we have that guy.

I'm continuously forgetting we have him, which is part of why I made that post; I wanted to remind myself that it isn't all that bad. We are missing a lot of significant parts that should have made this defense a LOT better than it is this year. He's only on a one year deal that rolls over to next year since he opted out of this one, but still, that should be a pretty good year of work. He'll be a big boost to our run defense, if I'm recalling him correctly.

ouch... that's a rough next year.

That's good to know!

Look on the up side... just think of how well we'll do on those strength of schedule tiebreakers next year.

our luck... our division is going to end up in a 4 way tie going 8-8

LOL

One thing that can't be understated because we will be worlds apart (from previous years) in this respect...

From top to bottom - organization, coaches, players, trajectory, etc... there is no reason for a free agent to believe that this isn't a good landing spot. And for the first time in over thirty years - a place to have a solid chance at a championship.

We need to be 5-1 (4-2 at the worst) in our division next year instead of either 2-4 or 3-3...

Ravens will be good (split), Steelers always seem to find a way but Ben really seems to be slowing down and that's a tough guy to replace (split or sweep), Bengals were looking better before Burrow went down so who knows if he'll be back to full strength or back at all when we play them (sweep)

I'll let other team's fans worry about their teams. I'm more concerned with fixing this defense.

Besides, the Packers, Vikings, Steelers, Chiefs and Raiders (and maybe even Bears) have some salary cap work to do.

Maybe not Saints-level work, but next year's schedule is for next year.

anyone see the PFF grades for the defense last night.. just about all but 3 fell into the replaceable category...and be replaced they shall

It is pretty clear that additional players on the defense are needed. Depth and starters.

I would anticipate action in free agency and the first 3 rounds of the draft (4 players) to try to push the team to the top tier.

LB, LB, CB, S

Wash, rinse, repeat.

Can't happen too soon. Our zone is like Keystone cops. Can't miss and whiff fast enough.

I'd be laughing if it was funny. The late TD left a stench.

And at this point it is far too early to point at the defensive coordinator or the front office.

Not counting our players who are UFA next year this is what our defensive depth chart will look like going into the off-season:

LDE Myles Garrett - Joe Jackson
LDT Sheldon Richardson - Jordan Elliott
RDT Andrew Billings
RDE Adrian Clayborn - Porter Gustin - Curtis Weaver

SAM Sione Takitaki - Jacob Phillips - George Obinna
MLB OPEN
WLB Mack Wilson

LCB Denzel Ward - MJ Stewart
SS Ronnie Harrison
FS Sheldrick Redwine - Grant Delpit - Jovante Moffatt
RCB Tavierre Thomas - Robert Jackson - Greedy Williams

All these players are unsigned for next year:

DE Olivier Vernon
DT Larry Ogunjobi
DT Vincent Taylor
LB BJ Goodson
LB Malcolm Smith
LB Tae Davis
LB Elijah Lee
S Andrew Sendejo
S Karl Joseph
S Tedric Thompson
CB Terrance Mitchell
CB Kevin Johnson

Oh I am not pinning the whole problem on Woods .. It has been a combined effort.. lol

I’d like to re-sign Vernon ... and Malcolm Smith and Mitchell as some depth .. that’s about it

Vernon depends heavily on what he wants. I hope he doesn't still think he's a top-tier guy.

This demonstrates that most of the problem is scheme. Sorry. The defense brings 6 guys and they all end up on the far side of the field leaving the Lamar the choice to freely roam the near side. If he doesn't throw that ball, he still runs for at least 20, or most likely the TD.

Now, this happened repeatedly in the game. What chance do you have if you don't make some attempt to contain Jackson by sealing both edges? If they just leave Joseph in coverage and let Vernon do his job, then this play does not happen.

The defense played well in the first half against Tennessee because they stopped this nonsense. They put 5 men on the line and stopped the run. Everyone maintained there gaps and it worked. I would argue for playing Baltimore pretty much the same way.

We cannot fairly judge the talent on this team because the coaching is not putting them in a position to be successful.

I don't know if the problem is Woods or the defensive staff as a whole, but I think that we see some changes there in the offseason.

j/c

Watch that video clip again and look at the receiver at the top of the screen...dude is wide open over there...now...Lamer couldn't see that or make that throw if his life depended on it...but...nonetheless...there were (3) nice options there based on where our defenders ended up.

Simply put I disagree that Woods is the problem. Our secondary has gigantic holes. This is a problem that is exacerbated by Wards' absence this week. The run D has actually improved over the past 4-5 games. The linebacking corp needs an infusion of talent and the pass rush needs more depth. In spite of all of that, we're not getting gashed with explosive running plays. I don't think we currently have all the various skill sets needed for Woods to employ his full scheme. I like how hard the D is playing though. I see a unit that can be tweaked. It does not need an overhaul or a new DC, IMO.

We need to find our killer MLB, a Ray Lewis or Brian Urlacher or James Harrison. Yeah I know, it's easy picking a HOF LB (end sarcasm) but we gotta luck out and solidify that position

I cannot remember the Browns drafting a true LB since the return in the first round.

Wasn't David Viekune a first rounder?

Round 2. One of 3 great picks in the 2nd round in that draft </sarc>

Unless you want to count Barkevious Mingo, the highest drafted off-ball LBer we've taken is D'Qwell.

45) Rahim Abdullah (1999)
52) Chaun Thompson (2003)
34) D"Qwell Jackson (2006)
52) David Veikune (2009)
6) Barkevius Mingo (2013)

003...the Browns defense appears to be so undisciplined and especially the DBs and LBs. On the play shown, it's hard to defend such poor execution but the fault starts with the HC, DC and the defensive coaching staff.

Stefanski, as the HC of "the entire team", might want to spend some time with the defensive coaching staff, helping to improve the performance of the defense.

If the defensive play doesn't improve in the next 3 games the chances of the Browns making the playoffs is slim.

Beau Bell was a gem of a pick

I agree...at least I think so...and for the most part. Woods takes a beating from a lot of sources that don't then also recognize the chicken-salad-from-chicken-poo dilemma he's operating in.

I can see/read that we've lost a ton of guys off-and-on who we were counting on and throughout the year (Ward, Garrett, Harrison, Phillips), lost guys from the get-go for the whole year (Billings, Delpit, G Williams) and guys who took some time to get healthy in order to really contribute (Clayborn and Vernon).

I have also read or seen where our schemes and/or calls have been suspect. Like anything that puts Vernon - healthy or not - on an eligible receiver.

And I have read or seen where guys simply appear to have completely ignored their assignment/fit resulting in big/chunk plays by the offense...then we had the keystone cops routine on the Rats last TD drive/4th down.

I WANT to believe that our issues on D are akin to our (hopefully now former) issues at QB/offensive-productivity. Too many new systems...too many new players...about the only thing/mistake we seem to have avoided recently is the allure of switching to a 3-4 and back and forward. Not a great thing to hold your hat on. It feels to me that when we fail on defense it's because our player(s) simply didn't make the play or got themselves out-of-position to be effective on that fail. Disclaimer: I'm not standing on a box here shouting out a proclamation for all to adhere-to...there are many things about scheme that I simply don't see until it's pointed-out on a replay of some sort.

In the end, I think we simply don't know enough about Woods' coordinating in this virus world with injuries and opt-outs to have any inkling that he should be fired and we start all over...again. I'd like to read a good breakdown of his coaching and scheming but I don't recollect there being any. See how far down this list you get before either shaking your head or chuckling in disbelief:

Billings was going to be the run-stopper that LO cannot be;

Delpit was going to be the starter and Sendejo was...not;

Phillips was going to be a key player with Goodson to help him along;

Greedy was to be our #2 and KJ our slot with Money Mitch as the 4th CB and #1 backup;

Harrison was brought in because without Delpit, we needed too much Joseph.

What did/do we think that any D coordinator could do under these circumstances?

Authored by Woods' Dad (kidding)

I think this D was going to be rough around the edges, even before the injuries/opt-outs. Our LB corps is what it is/was, and Ward's injury history was well-documented, so we already knew we were going to see Mitchell/Tavierre at some point during the season. Sendejo was behind Delpit, but Delpit is a rookie (and rookie DBs can be tough to watch).

Asking a coordinator to cover for all of this is asking a lot. He's mostly in a no-win, pick your poison, type of situation. Hard to come out of that looking competent, much less good.

.. I don't think we currently have all the various skill sets needed for Woods to employ his full scheme... "

One of my points well stated .. If you don't have the personal to play a certain scheme , don';t play it . Round peg meet square hole .. Wilks pretty much did the same thing last season. Now as I have mentioned before , this is not on Woods alone.. The FO didn't do him any favors in the off season when bringing in FA's or the draft..

This will be a Good and LONG off season discussion on our board .. You can be sure I will state my case in full. lol

What is the correct scheme choice when you have very poor LB play, and poor/no secondary?

This is the question everyone needs to be asking themselves before pointing the finger at Joe Woods.

Every game and Opposing team is different . In Rat Birds game I would have tried ( no guarantee ) a pinche'er type scheme . Garrett and Vernon play the most important roles.( maintain out side responsibility ) Fastest LB/DB 3 man combo at LB. about three to to four yards of the line . Press coverage on Receivers. That would be my base. Yep , no safety to speak of .. Make Lamar beat me with his arm. I feel that ANY QB is less accurate falling backwards or from his butt .. That doesn't mean you are not going to switch it up from play to play .. Going with a normal 4/3 or 4/2 .. The idea is to make them have to adjust .. He either throws the ball fast or has to move. The idea of dropping Vernon into coverage is nuts in my book.

My whole D concept is to do WHAT EVER I have to do to make the QB VERY , VERY uncomfortable .. Do not think Jackson can handle it .. He will make mistakes ..

the part where he had to move seemed to be the problem.

ie , 8 men up front with strict containment on the edges . Shoot you could have put the rookie Elliot over the tackle as you 5th man for example . Kid is pretty quick for a big guy.

Try putting two men up at the line on Andrews and never let him get five yards down field .. So many ways to use what you have.

Not necessarily responding to you Waterdawg.

The defense has made incremental progress. Even the LB play has gotten better over the course of the season. Goodson's pass defense has been better than expected. I've read and seen recently on Building the Browns that he's been excellent at getting the plays in and helping the front get the proper alignment. Malcolm Smith has been the best LB, IMO. He seems to be able to diagnose plays down-for-down better than others.

Still, that doesn't substitute for talent. I think the secondary needs much more attention than the LB corp tho. I really have a man-crush on Tulsa LB, Zaven Collins. I think he might be worth a first-round selection.

No worries Dawg .. Let me be clear , I am not dropping the D problems totally on Woods .. He had help from the FO . At this stage of the season I am looking to the Draft and FA. PERIOD. I just dont want Vernon dropping back in coverage ..lol

I don't claim to know a thing about who is worthy of draft consideration. However, as a strategy, with the offense we have for only another year or two (even with a little regression), I'd be looking to trade some of those mid round picks to move up and ensure you are getting 2 quality starters on defense. Of course, Berry has to hit on talent eval, but the point is there is not a position we could NOT use more talent, and we are not longer a team that is in need of guys all over the place.

If we could come away from the draft with ONLY 2 BDPA, at the end of round 1 and again early-mid round 2, resign a couple of our mid-level players, and get healthier, we can be a top half defense, minimum, and really be a SB contender.

Well, we will get a good bit of talent back from IR and opt-outs, then we will definitely be pulling in some talent from free agency.

If last offseason predictions are true, the salary cap will actually DECREASE next year. This is where all of that extra carryover we've had going for years will be mega-valuable. We should be a VERY attractive team for talent to come to, and we should be positioned to spend quite well. As always, don't expect us to make "shock the world" type signings, but expect us to bring in some young talent entering their 2nd contract that will be here long term. We will likely have a decent handful of signings to go along with the ones we decide to retain.

Then, you can bet that almost the entire draft will focus on defense; depending upon what players fall to our picks, of course. If a Megatron type WR falls to us at pick #32 and our choice is him or the 6th DT on the board, we will probably take that WR. Just sayin'.
Aside from that, we'll be going all D.

Tampa Bay has 2 very good LB's that could hit FA.

Also, do we know what we're getting back from IR? Delpit and Greedy are big ? at this point.

Counting on Delpit or Greedy is a bad strategy ..

I want us to be able to, but I agree that it is probably a bad move strategically.

We should sign a CB or two in free agency, then probably draft a CB/S hybrid fairly high... someone that can play FS if Delpit doesn't make it back, but who can also shift to CB if he does make it back and can claim the starting job. Since we roll with 5 DBs anyway, it still covers the bases and puts the best five out there.

I think we go LB in first (Tulsa kid) and bolster DL. I know the secondary has been problematic, but unlike other position groups, we DO have potential there on the roster. Delpit, Greedy and Ward could make that a strong unit, and while you need depth, you can’t just write them off over injuries.

Tulsa plays Cincinnatti tonight. There are interesting prospects on each defense. Tulsa's defense is supposedly loaded. Cinci is undefeated. Here are the guys I'll be looking at closely.

Tulsa: Zaven Collins LB, #23 and Allie Green IV. CB, #12

Cinci: Ja'Von Hicks S, #3 and Mychal Keys, DE #98

...but it would be foolish to think they're going be available and not address the issue. The healthiest of the 3, Ward in his third season has yet to play a full slate of games. Greedy and Delpit have serious injuries with a more than minute possibility of never being 100%.

With Greedy, nerve damage can be permanent. We've not heard a whole lot regarding the seriousness, but due to the games he's missed it's not a minor issue. Delpit's torn achilles has ended the careers of a lot of players. Today's technology has improved the success rate of this injury, but will he ever be 100%? We can't bank on it.

Hope and prayers that they all come back, but I think we need to draft high and/or spend big for the secondary.

At least as far as Delpit is concerned this article suggest a better than 50% chance for him to come back and contribute.


https://www.healio.com/news/orthopedics/...s-tendon-repair

Do whatever Kevin Durant did. There is literally no difference in his athleticism that I’ve seen.

I wonder if there’s a difference in rehab based on how they had to repair it? Strange that some people can fully recover and some cant

That's still pretty terrible odds. It is more than a 1 in 4 chance that his career is over before taking a snap.... and almost a guarantee that his career is shortened.

Also: "Running backs and linebackers had significantly worse postoperative performance scores compared with preoperative scores. "

Significantly worse compared to what?? They don't say, but it suggests that positions that need to run & cut do worse, although it doesn't mention defensive backs.


The degree of the tear, the location of the tear, etc, all likely contributes to how they recover.... not to mention the basica differences in individual biology. Some may also not rehab as well, or try to do too much too early and create setbacks. Tons of variables.


At best, it seems like only a 50/50 shot of him being back and being able to play, and I would not put money on him playing at the same level he would have before the injury. We NEED to plan on not having him, and if we do, then that's a bonus.

All of your points are valid but they niether guarantees success or failure. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst. So yes more Safety help is warranted.

That's actually the entire point

What did you see? I was watching Bama and Florida and missed the Tulsa/ Cinncinati game. Collins seems all over the place regarding the draft rankings. Some site have him fringe first round (25-35) and other sites have him in the high 60s overall. It seems hard to get a read this year.

Collins technique is lacking but they weren't kidding about how a man that big really shouldn't be able to move like he does. He is smooth.

I have a feeling a 3-4 team who wants a versatile, outside edge LB may reach for him in the 1st and sacrifice his rookie season on developing his shedding ability, but for me he's more of an early day two guy. He doesn't attack the hole very aggressively and relies too much on being more athletic than the rest to make his plays.

Did learn he was the valedictorian of his high school and a gymnast as well. Crazy God-given gifts and apparently quite intelligent. I'm going to guess pick 38 to the Dolphins to help them rid themselves of that Kyle Van Noy albatross of a contract before 2022.

He looked rather slow to me. Granted, he is 6'4 and 260, but I think we need a sideline to sideline tackling machine. He does not fit that bill, IMO.

Definitely not a off-ball guy in a 2-LB system. You have to be able to roam, shed, and be aggressive for that. I thought he moved well in space, but when you're not pressing the hole and popping guys, it does look a bit..err.. "laissez faire", maybe?

Apparently I'll be using French slang on a football website today.

He is freakishly smooth in his motions, I'll definitely give him that.

C'est la vie.

J/C
I had to work a 12 yesterday and today so I taped the game. Just saw fragments mostly the 2nd quarter live. Doesn't appear this was his best outing. But judging from his whole body of work I feel like he could upgrade us over Mac Wilson.

That's not really saying much.

J.T. O'Sullivan has a great video series called QB School.
Typically he just highlights offensive plays, but in reviewing that same play from the Ravens game he really rips into the Browns defense.
He has some really great insights into this play and what went wrong and again, reinforces that this is not a talent problem, but a discipline/coaching/teamwork problem.

Hard to watch , but very relevant .

With Vernon definitely not being back, we NEED to sign at least one DE in free agency.

I'd like to see us make a run at Trey Hendrickson of the Saints and/or Leonard Williams of the Giants. Both are very solid against the run and can bring big pressure as a pass rusher.

If we only invest in two positions in Free Agency this offseason, I think it has to be DE and CB. I don't think we've played with a 100% healthy secondary in two entire seasons now.... so, if nothing else, that mandates that our depth be a LOT better than it is.

]
slick Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 08/24/10
Posts: 2564
Well we have been working out cornerbacks. Everytime I try to screen shot it and put it on here it never work. It's on mary kay twitter. I'm assuming this means there is a good chance ward and Johnson will not play
_________________________
" Now here you are running these dirty old streets tattoo on your neck fake gold on your teeth, got the hood here snowed but you can't fool me, we both know who you are"


Slick, I believe that we have been working out big corners. Maybe it's in response to Claypool?

Don't try and screenshot it. All you have to do is copy the tweet number, click on "enter media tag" and then "twitter post" and paste it into the dialogue box. It won't show on preview, but just submit it and it will be there.

Slick,I looked into the two corners we supposedly tried out today. One was 6'4 and the other was 6'2. The guy we signed, Brian Allen, is 6'3. I'm not saying if Ward will play but I think the reason for the signing is definitely to try and combat those jump balls to Claypool.

If we sign a player they have to sit out six days because of COVID protocol. These guys likely aren’t even playing against the Steelers.

j/c

Going into next year, we really need to do some work on the defense. We've been talking about it all year.

DBs - Ward takes some heat on this board for missing games. And he does. According to Pro-Football-Reference he has missed 11 games over his 3 years. But why do those same people give Greedy Williams a pass? He has missed several more games (20) in one less year. Ward, when on the field, has made a difference. Williams, not so much. Ward has contributed to this playoff run. Williams not at all. Williams is not someone we can count on in the least.

I would put Delpit in there as well. Not a single snap this year, zero contribution to the playoff run. Who knows if he can come back, and if so what will he be? Not to mention the LSU sex scandal where he and Phillips were mentioned.

If either of them contributes to this team it would be a bonus. But we cannot count on it.

The DB room needs a lot of work. Ward is good when he plays. Harrison has played well. Joseph has at at times. Mitchell is good at the slot and for depth. The rest are just guys.

LBs - We had a few (Smith, Takitaki, Goodson) who looked good/capable at times. Phillips has shown speed and flashes of nice play. The rest? Not good.

Mack Wilson is so lost out there. Reminds me of my neighbor's dog when he is in the backyard and there are 5 or 6 squirrels out there running around. There is a lot of action and the dog should be doing something, but he just stands there because he is clueless at what to do. That is Mack Wilson. To top it off he misses a lot of tackles. Played LB at a Power 5 college, I am sure tackling came up from time to time. Should be able to at least do that.

It has been said that the LBs are not a priority in this defensive scheme. That has been made obvious. When I see someone like Myles Jack play I wonder what a LB like that would do for us.

Again, I think the LB room needs a lot of work, but I do not see that happening.

DL - Sucks what happened to Vernon. He really came on as of late while Garrett is still trying to shake the COVID after affects. I think Larry is a free agent. I am sure there will be some turnover here as well. But I think the back of the defense needs more attention.

I agree Cap ... the defense is a big hurdle over the next few months. Our secondary needs overhauled and we need to draft a LB and DE for the front 7, along with acquiring some depth pieces.

Ward’s contract is a tricky situation to me. When he’s on the field he’s worth top 10 money ... but that’s a big when. Not sure how we’ll assess that and how he’ll wanna be paid.

I think we'll switch to really really liking our CB group if we can get 1 more outside CB. Mitchell is a sub/depth guy. He's good as long as he's not consistently slotted as one of your top 2. I thought he was more of a slot corner with some flexibility to play outside, but folks have argued that's not the case and I'm pretty sure I'm getting our corners from the last few years mixed up in my head. Mitchell is valuable so long as you have some talent in front of him on the depth chart. I'm considering Greedy is done for good... and if he comes back healthy then that will just be gravy. We need to acquire 1 starter-caliber CB... I heard that one Patriots dude is an RFA. He's young and the lone bright spot on that Patriots D.

I've liked what I've seen from Takitaki and the rookie. I think we keep hitting LB via the draft unless there's a guy that we really really like (basically all of Tampa Bay's talented LBs are hitting FA). We do need to start worrying about our spending.

DE is a tough one to address. FA means big bucks, and draft is a crapshoot on top of probably requiring our top pick.

We also need a free safety really really bad. This probably should've gone up top of my post.

What I find most confusing is how some fans try and lump Covid into missing games due to injury. Covid is a virus and has been circulating within the team. That's not something a player can prevent. It has now even hit Stefanski and I'm not going to blame him for it either.

It’s almost like there is a pandemic or something.

Some people never seem to see. Because Mitchell is a star for the Browns, one of the most important players to bring back, and if he played in 100 games and the team had a winning record there'd still be blind folks who'd think, ehh, got to get someone in there with some hype.


I still say, the Future of Defense in the NFL is more safeties on the field, more rotation at safety, I'd not be adverse to a 6 man Safety rotation on the active roster, imo.

And the future is Now, I think.

In Ward's presser, some idiotic reporter named Jeff asked him if he felt like he let the team down for catching COVID. I'm not kidding and that's why I hate the media. It's at about 4:10 on this clip.

It's our new society. Shaming is becoming more popular than disco in the 70's. With Covid, it's growing to a whole new level.

On a somewhat related note, thought it was interesting that the Nets comments on Kyrie's return included a protocol that included coming back and explaining his mistake to his teammates and the media. He was taped at a birthday party without a mask on.

Wonder if they asked the same thing to Stefanski (who by all accounts has been completely on it regarding preventive measures).

The virus is going to act like a virus. What is 'fair' doesn't matter. I have a cousin that went full-on shut-in (hyperbole) due to the virus and she got it.

Agreed. 100%

I'm usually never one to shy away from slamming Cleveland's sport reporters (or any for that matter), but there allegedly were rumblings and grumblings about Browns players becoming lax regarding COVID protocol in the week(s) leading up to the outbreak. Maybe this is more of a case of the phrasing of the question vs the question itself.

Serious question.. what is the drop off from Olivier Vernon to Adrian Clayborn?

Vernon had 9 sacks, Clayborn 3.5
Vernon had 13 TFL, Clayborn had 5
Both forced 1 fumble...

Vernon had 804 snaps, Clayborn had 404..

So, statistically, if you average for the snap count, stats aren't all that different.

**I would love to have both this week because depth is important if you are chasing the Chiefs and Mahomes all over the field.. but do we really lose a tremendous amount with Clayborn instead of Vernon?

I think the answer is probably hidden in the things not as easily seen, like run defense, pressure rate, etc...

He was a much heralded signing (that got overshadowed by other moves), so hopefully he lives up to that. We NEED him to.

Vernon was also just coming on recently (right before his injury). Averaging his stats over the course of the season might be shortchanging him somewhat if we're looking at what he would've brought to this game.

Oh I agree that Vernon is better.... just opining on HOW MUCH better.....

It's about the same kind of thinking, I'd think, as if someone wants to ask,
ehh
what's the drop off from, Hunt to Chubb,

Insuiating- we don't need both, ?

(Thinking that it's OK! to get rid of, or self denounce your own team by getting rid of a good player, with opening the line of thinking that
ehh, there is another good player, why need 2?

NO! I reject that line of thinking, You do need 2.
In fact you need to find 3
and then find a 4th
and keep your eyes open for a 5th!

Otherwise one might as well just root for some other team, this is the NFL
this is about having the best
THE BEST!
team in the whole wide world,

not the, uhh, we just need enough to field a team.

So what, if Joe Ivey comes off the practice squad and plays like a hof'er, they should cut Sheldon Richardson?
or--
If Joe Ivey comes off the practice squad, to keep Sheldon Richardson, one should hope Joe Ivey doesn't play that well??
(Ivey is no longer on the practice squad I think),

But what kind of thinking is that, self defeating, and I don't like it.

I see your point and that makes sense to question. I suppose the biggest difference is as you go down the roster depth you end up needing more from the non-1st/2nd stringers...but we've weather-ed that well all year. :shrug:

Ahh the ol' stat sheet comparison.

Well, Vernon was 22.6% more effective at getting sacks
23.5% more effective at getting a tackle for loss

Look everyone, fun with numbers.

Vernon is better than Clayborn by a fair margin. I like Clayborn, but Vernon is/was a starting caliber end. Clayborn is situational.

Jc

I was gonna go off in the post game about Woods but overall this belongs here.

First off, I tried to give Woods the benefit of the doubt because we actually aren’t talent on the defensive side of the ball, but my patience went out the window the moment chad freaking Henne won the game for the chiefs.

He needs to go. The game plan was wack all season, and against the chiefs.

The only reasons I can see Stefanski keeping Woods IS the talent aspect.

- Our “star” DEs are literally glass cannons. Never healthy, never on the field at the same time, always getting hurt. It’s either Garett or Vernon or both. I was against trading for Vernon and I’m simply sick of him always being injured. I have obviously way more patience with Garrett cause he atleast guts it out but damn man....

- our LBs gotta be the worst in the league. Sorry but Mack Wilson is garbage. Takitaki is garbage. I’m torn on BJ Goodson but we can most upgrade. Mack was suppose to be a great coverage LB. yea....no.

- our secondary is also hot garbage. Ward is another guy who is good only when available, and that doesn’t seem to be often. We literally had backups to the backups starting games cause we can’t stay healthy anywhere on the back end, and our “starters” as a whole ain’t all that startable to begin with. I don’t wanna hear crap about greedy Williams or even delpit for that matter. We have to go into this offseason/draft addressing both positions because we have a lack of talent AND health problem.

Our only quality unit is the interior defensive line. I actually don’t have anything bad to say about them. I love Larry and Sheldon, and our rotational DEs are fine.

But even after all that, woods completely ticked me off today. Every single week we looked unprepared and confused as to what to do on defense. It’s like this defense never practiced against players going in motion before.

We have to start by not letting Henne scramble for 14 yards with the season on the line

That final play was definitely a Reid special. Who thought they were actually going to snap it?

That chad henne run that led the the Reid special was a Woods gift.

I question whether Garrett and Ward will ever play a full season.

Greedy is another guy. Delpit is a question now with an achilles, some come back, some don't.

We need fast LBs that tackle good. Wilson has dropped big time since his injury. Phillips, IMO, will be a stud in time.

We need to replace all the starters at LB, and bring in another pass rusher or two.

This team fully healthy is going to be good.

I knew they would snap it when I saw the center tap his right hip.

We definitely need a free safety.
I want another pass rushing De to pair with Garrett. And we need somebody who can recognize that tight ends are allowed to catch the football. Whether that is a linebacker or a strong safety i don't really care. But tight ends kill us.

Add 3 quality players and our D is pretty good. Especially if you remember Billings will be back.

Tavierre is a STs guy, so we can find room on the roster for him. I would hope Karl Joseph being pushed off the roster is a sign that we've done such a monumental upgrade at the position. I didn't think he was as bad as that score would suggest.

I would be really happy if we got a LB/S hybrid that has the physical tools to keep up with Lamar. Give him to the coaches as a project and deploy him at the right times when ready.

j/c:

I'm sure most of this has already been said but here is what I would like to see:

1. A complete overhaul of the starting linebackers. Some are young like Takitaki and Mack Wilson and just aren't starters, the others are aging vets whose time is coming to an end. I do like Phillips but he is more of an unknown at this point. He does have speed that I think the other linebackers lack greatly.

2. We need another edge rusher. I don't envision Vernon coming back and Gustin is nice but think he is more a depth/rotation guy.

3. I'd like to see the Browns stick with Harrison at SS and hopefully Delpit can come back healthy as FS.

4. Extend Denzel Ward. Not sure if they will do it this offseason or sometime before the end of next, but he is a staple and needs to remain, obviously.

5. Make a decision on Greedy Williams. If the team thinks he will never be the same, just move on.

6. I'd resign Ogunjobi too, but at the right price. I like his interior pass rush ability but he's not the best at containing the run, IMO. This line needs a deep rotation and think Ogunjobi can still be a starter for us.

The defense should be a clear focus of the front office this offseason whether in FA or the draft.

Maybe I should know this, but I don't: do teams employ a scout to scout themselves? I know they have scouting staff for college players and other staff for advance scouting of teams on their schedule and throughout the NFL. But is there someone who scouts us and reports back to the HC, OC, DC, and STC? Or is that a function of the coaching staff when reviewing game film?

''We need fast LBs that tackle good.''

Couldn't agree more. We are slow sealing the edge.

We are not that far from being a championship team. Berry and Stefanski have to think DEFENSE, DEFENSE, DENFENSE, in the 2021 draft.

Our secondary and LBs need improvement. The DBs give the receivers way too much cushion. I don't know if Woods wants his DBs to try and keep everything in front of them because he thinks they are too slow and receivers would run right past them or what? Getting Greedy Williams back and a healthy Ward will help.

Our LBs are too slow to cover RBs and TEs. We could also use another speed edge rusher on the other side to complement Garrett.

The Browns are not that far away. Improve the defense and they will be a strong SB contender next season.

No, I've never heard of a team scouting themselves. The coaches look at game film to see what went right and what went wrong and make necessary adjustments for the next game.

We will be drafting where, 25 or 26 I guess?

Just a reminder that Ray Lewis was the #26 pick in the draft. That's all I want.

I think an independent point of view from someone not emotionally invested in a given unit or player might be useful. I'd like to hire away someone from Pittsburgh's or Baltimore's Pro Personnel Dept and tell him "Scout our games and give us a report every Monday.".

Step one should is Bring Woods back ; yes or no ..

Is Berry satisfied with his talent evaluation on Defensive plays in last years draft . How did he do in the FA department .

Teams certainly self scout ... thats all we did over the bye (and look how much we improved after)

j/c...

Woods is not going anywhere nor should he. Stefanski is not a knee jerk reaction type of guy. Give Woods some talent and time to build the defense with guys in the same scheme. His defense forced a lot of turnovers with the limited talent available.

Not changing coaches, QB or GM in the offseason is a breath of fresh air. Has this ever even happened since 1999?

The offseason and bulk of the draft will focus on the defense.

I agree...People tend to forget if we keep firing coordinators after one year, who the hell really wants to come here to coach under those circumstances.

Woods def. needs to improve, I think adding talent and depth will most def. help by logic alone. I think we finished 23rd in overall defense, I see no reason why we aren't in the top 15 or better next year...Most of our players should improve as well, as having one full year in a system is encouraging...versus where starting all over isn't too smart for a team having their first taste of success in a longgggg time.

I mean Woods started the year with the worst LB core in the league, without his starting CB and FS the entire year, Covid- which effected this team in vast ways, and the normal weekly NFL injuries that every team occurs.

We need defensive upgrades for sure but I hope we stick to a BPA strategy come draft. The tough part is - what if that was a QB or HB? I guess youd have a market for trade then.

Its refreshing not having even looked at a draft site yet.

I guess by position, well, first, the offense is in good shape. I'd like to bring back Higgins as a safety net to OBJ's health, but even if we lose him DPJ has shown really nice development and Hodges beat him out twice earlier this year as the #3 WR.
At O-line we found depth out of nowhere (giving that credit to the coach)
Even if we have to cut Hubbard to create more cap flexibility to extend Teller, we have Dunn with Drew Forbes coming back and some guy named Blake who won't even be an exclusive rights free agent until 2022.

So, yeah...defense.

It starts with Free Agency, you have to shore yourself up before the draft.

On the D-Line, if we lose Ogunjobi we go to the draft with Richardson, the rookie Elliott and Billings coming back. On one hand we can go to the draft in decent shape with these three, but Richardson is a Free Agent in 2021 and so is Billings (and we have no idea if Billings will even be any good).
So, I'd start with restructuring and extending Richardson. I know I mentioned this before but it is the smart play with the down cap this year and a likely suppressed free agent market as a result of dead monies next year. Get Sheldon some security and save the front office some money in the long run. Otherwise we are still in the market for a defensive tackle. Not worth creating the need as Richardson is already in house and remains our best Free Agent signing of recent memory (not named Jack Conklin) . An early draft option could be Christian Barmore out of Alabama (their DT's are WAY better than the LBers they send to the NFL).

At Linebacker (off-ball), this free agent class consists of Lavonte David. Sort of trading for a good young player we are not going to find a core guy so it is likely we will bring in another 1-2 year vet while we develop our guys. I'm still OK with TakiTaki as the SAM and hoping Phillips develops but I will be disappointed if we don't find a guy by day 2 in the draft. An early draft option could be Owusu-Koramoah.

In the secondary...yikes, there are so many injury concerns it's hard to know where to start. Even if we "expect" Delpit and Greedy to return and play well, man...
OK, we exercise Ward's option (if for no other reason than to give us an extra year to see if he can stay healthy before committing anything long term.
We try like heck to bring back Money Mitch to safeguard the outside depth.
Even still, we need to make sure to address the slot guy in Free Agency (KJ was OK, but he's a Free Agent and we have NO ONE (Tavierre and MJ Stewart were trying to cover it, but...yeah...no). Thankfully this is an amazing slot corner Free Agent period and they should come cheaper than usual. This is a must address before the draft.
With the aforementioned injury concerns, a safety who can cover is also a must address. I don't care if it's a top guy or if we take a swing at the glass house that is Malik Hooker. There is no way to "waste" money here really. Even if Delpit comes back full go, he still played more of a Jamal Adams role in college. Using Him and a true free safety on the back end with Harrison as the big nickle in a 2-LB defense is even better. An early draft target (2nd round) could be Moehrig or Holland as they have the versatility to be the slot/FS hybrid.

Sooo... Free Agent targets for the long term 1 and 2 are Free Safety and slot.

And lastly, at DE/Edge. Ugh. Man, the only way I see us getting an affordable option is via trade for a cap-wrecked team. We can't blow the cap on a DE2. Should be an active trade market though for a lot of these teams looking to recoup "something" for the guys they can't afford. It's possible Rousseau could still be available in the 1st, but he is super raw and has essentially no pass-rush moves. A lot of day 2 guys in the draft but they are mostly 3rd down rotational guys for a year or two.

Sooo...trade target a DE all day. With a LB being another strong possible trade target.

Heck, offer a 4th to the Eagles for Derek Barnett They're in cap hell anyway


Moral of the story. Don't limit it to free agency. Trades should come cheap from some of these teams (when you look at not only how many teams are over the cap, but how many players they actually have signed and WHO those players are, more than half the league is going to struggle with cap issues this off season).

Ok , I'll play .. Love our Coaching staff with the sky as the limit ; Except for Woods. Not much of a stats guy , but you need to use them in making decisions .. We are in the 20's ( team ranking ) on D ; we average giving up 26 avg points at home and 30 away .. Opposing offenses eat up clock keeping our O off the field and wearing down the D unit .. By the fourth their gasping for breath .

Our O had all of three positions in the first half of the Kansa game ..
Players out of position all season long ( you didn't see that on the O )
D lineman in coverage , rushing three , and the list goes on .

I realize the lack of talent EXCUSE has some merit .. Woods must have had input on the FA D players brought in and Drafting D players .

Another post another time on Elliot /Delpit / Philips

I haven’t read the whole thread but I assuming that people want Woods fired.

I will say this, I would like to return a whole coaching staff for once. Also, defenses can improve greatly from year to year based on personnel.

j/c

I agree w/those who want to keep Woods. I think we need a full offseason of continuity, especially after this year ... we need to let things grow from here. Acquire some speed/talent, develop the pieces we have.

That's good, and I doubt we're going to lose anyone to coaching searches this year.

Not a lot on the "fire him now" bandwagon.. most seem to be on the give him more talent and another year or two, if we don't improve.. well then we need to consider it.

You can't properly gauge and defense that has Sendejo and Free Safety and Tavierre/MJ Stewart in the slot for large chunks of the year.

Agreed. I think most want to give the guy time to work with better personnel. Plus, with the season the Browns had, it is more than appropriate to have a holistic approach to continuity across all coaching.

I think fans were a little more upset with Woods at the beginning of the season, but after many realized the holes that existed on the defensive side of the ball, many came to the conclusion that it wasn't all on him.

Exactly. Woods did fine in San Francisco with his D. We didn't have the best talent plus we had guys in and out of the lineup with Covid and injuries. Let's give him some better players and stability and see what happens.

I agree...for me it's another of the "In Ski We Trust" type things. Ski knows Woods well...if he thinks Woods should get another shot - and with better players - then I can get on board with that.

It's only a small thing - but think Woods was the CB or Secondary coach in SF not the D coordinator who was Saleh.

yeah that was my only real dismay regarding our defensive coaching. How can we not adjust our defense to a Back up where run and short passes would be his high percentage attempts - Instead we played the D as if Mahomes was still playing and can make it happen with his arm. Instead we just let Henne be comfortable in that pocket and had all dropped back as if he was an MVP QB that could easily throw for a 14 yard connection. That pretty much PO'd me.

Out side of that I thought our D was well coached. We just need better talent to make it great.

Swish...Garrett got the freakin Covid come on man there is a Pandemic going on you know.

Actually Vernon I thought was a steady player all year till he got the season ending injury. But he was out there almost every down in our late season run.

I really like the kid Elliot and you know who put in some quality reps on D was Vince Taylor - So unless we got a STUD out there for an upgrade I like our DT situation.

We need a quality edge guy either from FA or draft or both. I thought it was a mistake not going for Clowney or if I remember he rejected our offer???

I think one of the best things to happen this season is we got that "SAME OLD BROWNS" stigma on us - REMOVED! DONE - NO MORE! We should be the team that FA would relish coming to.

And we got a rep of being tough.

jmho

Where do we go? Find speed at the LB position. Another quality pass rusher. Speed at the corner position. I guess I should just say, we need speed at all the back end positions. I would go into the offseason as if Greedy and Delpit don't exist. Not that I don't think they will return, or be good, but sign guys with speed to cover fast WRs. Upgrade at corner and safety. If they both come back strong, then good depth will be built.

At LB, the trend is fast sideline to sideline guys who can cover. We don't have one of those now.

I think we have a sideline to sideline LB now in Phillips but he's the only one we have. I agree we need more speed at the LB and secondary positions.

Agreed. Still would like to see more of him.

I'm not sold on Berry ( fo ) as Defensive talent evaluator's yet . Offence , ok and Ski is the man .. Delpit , Elliot or Philips were not my picks by a long shot .. Philip flash's some speed .. I didn't see much from Elliot in his snaps .. I suspect all three will be on next years roster . Well maybe Delpit.

I Want to draft Physical DB's ..

That was me.. and it really hit home during the Steelers game when the announcers said that in their talk with Woods, he basically said that this game was going to be painful for him because he KNEW he had to give them everything underneath and that we would give up a lot of yards...

I think the dude wants to be a lot more aggressive but realizes he didn't have the players to do it this year.

But still, IMO he needed to rush more than 4 against a 35 year old backup QB on 3rd & 14.

WE NEED LINEBACKERS AND THEN MORE LINEBACKERS~!

LBer?

We need like 6 guys

DE: yep
DT: yep
LB: yep
Slot corner: yeppers
Outside Corner: yep
Free Safety: you betcha.

As far as I'm concerned we have to find 2 starters in Free Agency. 2 or 3other short term stop gaps and hope we can fill the other 2 in the draft to start from day one.

Why not just say the whole defense lil fella?

Adding a difference maker at every level of the defense is imperative

I suppose it could be said we already have difference makers, maybe just not the difference for which we hope.

That said, I don't think many would disagree. I think LB might be the one position where we don't need to do a whole lot. I say that based on comments made by Woods that he would prefer a D that only employs 2 backers.

The general feeling is we need another edge to apply pressure. I am not going to say we don't, but for me, I would rather have a tackle that can apply pressure up the middle. That really disrupts a QB.

No doubt we have to get better on the back end if Woods is ever going to be able to run the D he wants. The guys we currently have either aren't all that good, and the ones that are always seem to be hurt, so we need to have numbers back there.

j/c...

I would be hesitant on wholesale changes on D - key is continuity and there are some average players who GET IT as in the system. You cannot get a stud in every position but you have to rely on average bananas to over achieve. Of course we can upgrade wherever possible. I know Delpit and Greedy where in on all those virtual practices. So there knowledge of the D is pretty good. We know Ward is a keeper.

But size and speed is key - the more we have on those guys the better but don't forget guys like Winfield of the Bucs on paper he is nothing but man that kid can play football!

I think it's more of a case where a couple hits on new guys can push others down the roster where they belong.

-CBs that are supposed to be depth are no longer starting each Sunday.
-Rotational/depth LBs aren't playing every down

etc.

I agree. At least with-in reason, size isn't all that important.

Getting to the ball carrier and sticking with receivers is the key component for a defensive unit.

I have always felt that speed is a key component on D. Reacting is what defenders do, and when you are reacting, you are already a step behind.

If you aren't, you are guessing, and that's not a good defensive strategy.

Speed as a concept for the Defense on a whole is VERY IMPORTANT and EFFECTIVE. Just saying don't completely forget about kids who just are DARN good football players and play faster than there times runs in shorts!

I always thought the 40 times at the combine should be done in full pads and helmet.

jmho

I am not forgetting those guys. When I say speed, to me it is functional speed. Simply being fast isn't worth a darn if they suck at other things.

This is why I never put a lot of faith in 40 times. Unless someone is running straight down the field, your ability to run in a straight line is overrated.

Reaction time or what some call a quick twitch, the ability to read and diagnose what is and will happen next, the ability to play sideline to sideline and shift quickly on your feet have more to do with your game speed than how fast you can run in a straight line.

I guess our Line backers are Slow Twitcher's

or non-twitchers

Seeing Goodson trying to cover receivers or backs is hard to watch

Of course. Straight line speed in shorts is one thing but has to be compared to watching game film and gaging game speed.. they are related but not the same thing.

Instincts plays a big part in "game speed" as well. If you diagnose faster and get a 2 step head start on others, you sure do appear to be a lot faster.

I agree.

Make no mistake, a 40 time does have value and does provide a baseline on a players speed. Many times this speed also translates over to functional speed.

That is where tape factors in to the mix.

No doubt a gross gap in speed is going to show. A players who runs a 4.1 is almost always going to have more functional speed. When comparing players, one who runs a 4.5 and the one who runs a 4.65, maybe not so much.

Pretty much.

Heck the fastest clocked on field times go to running backs almost every year (admittedly, it's when they break through to nothing but green grass and actually get to run in a straight line without looking back for at least 35-40 yards, but still...)

I do enjoy when those tiny, speedy guys lose speed and balance as soon as they are carrying the weight of a uniform and in cleats, though. Or the WR's who slow way the F down as soon as their heads are turned back looking for the ball and they can't maintain their hips. Good times.

There is definitely talent on this team. However, the problem is not necessarily with the players. Woods sucks! His scheme sucks, and he knows NOT how to scheme to his players strengths. This defense was constantly in prevent. No creativity whatsoever. And opposing teams know this. I’m not sure what the answer is short of firing him. Which many don’t want to do in the name of continuity. Remember Hue Jackson in the name of continuity.....

He never had his starting back end. Every week it was different. I'll give him another year.

How many other teams would Sandejo start for? Wilson? Smith and Goodson were a pleasant surprise but still pretty average.

What about the CB's we signed off the street to start? The one that had never played in an NFL game before? Not sure I would say that was "talent".

Berry did what he could in one year.

Hooper, Conklin, Wills.

Delpit and Greedy gone the whole year.

Woods did not have a full deck.

This off season the emphasis will be defense. Next year we can judge Woods.

IMO Woods was limited on what he could do with the personnel available.

Free agency first then the draft. I don't think we will make trades that would involve roster players.

I just don't think we have players that we would use in trades.

Secondary help will happen. Defensive line will be a target for upgrades and so will linebacker. The draft will be simple BPA. Free agency will be key. IMO we will add 2/3 key players.

Exciting just thinking about it. Ward, Greedy, Delpit, Harrison, and Mitchell will be major contributors in the secondary.

Phillips has a future and his role will increase.
Wilson, and Taki will be situational players.
Linebacker needs a key add.

We need a tackle next to Sheldon with a strong rotation of four players at tackle.

Vernon played well this year. But his situation is a problem. Age, money, injury complicate him returning. He could come back for less money on a short term. But we will need to invest in a DE pass rusher. We have to get more pressure on the quarterback.

If there is such a thing anymore, we need a three-down linebacker that is good enough to never come off the field.

We need TWO DE's that scare other teams. Vernon is gone, and when Myles rotates out, we need someone in there that can still create havoc for the other team.

We need TWO DT's because Ogunjobi is likely gone. If we can keep Ogun, then we just need one that is a monster in both Run game and pass rush.

We need help at CB and Safety... call it depth, or make them starters, whichever. Whatever. Delpit is unknown, at best. Greedy is unknown right now. If this season has taught us anything, this defense NEEDS plenty of quality depth in the secondary.

So if I read you correctly, we need a lot of help on D.

The off-ball linebacker market is less than ideal at least and we still don't know who's going to re-sign with their current teams.

David is a beast but he's what, 31-ish?
Matt Milano and Jayon Brown can cover well enough but they will likely be looking for Joe Schobert money.

We would either have to run it back with limited vets and look to the draft or explore a trade for a cash strapped team. It's possible we could kick the tires on Avery Williamson, Kwon Alexander or some other guy who was less-than-ideal the past couple seasons (heck maybe even swing for the fences and give Reuben Foster about 925k and yet another chance to resurrect his career :p), but I'm still hoping for a trade option.

Then again, The Jags have no cap reasons to trade Myles Jack, so I guess we continue to try to find the future in the draft.

Ugh...I hate the LBer position.

New plan, build the front 4 and the secondary and let a couple LBers run around in between. There really is a ridiculously limited number of versatile LBers in this league unless you run a 3-4 defense.

I don't think this is a new plan, but the current plan by the front office since they took over. Allocate more resources in the trenches to disrupt QB timing and apply pressure. The secondary to matchup on WRs and make plays on the ball.

LBs can be had later in the draft and is a position group that will lower on the totem poll in terms priority.

Way early for draft talk but I did see a mock or so. Just to find out what players would fall in our range.

This DT from Alabama Christian Barmore looks interesting.
He can play both 1 and 3 technique.

Alabama guy so there is that as well. I watched some tape. Young guy declaring only a sophomore 6'5" around 310.

Strong penetration skills. Powerful bull rush but a raw player. He has that inside quickness and strength you look for. Seems to have the kind of skills to invest in even though he will need to develop.

Man, trying to put together a wish-list for free agency is kind of tough this year. Not too many possible long-term guys I can find that wouldn't roach spending with the upcoming extensions.

I still really want a versatile slot guy 1st and foremost for the long haul. Mitch could never cover the slot and KJ was a bit of a trainwreck on the outside.
A lot of options here though. Sooo...Mike Hilton, I guess.

At D-end, pretty sure guys like Ngakoue and Barrett are a no-go with the monies that will be going to Myles soon. Clowney has been clowning for a few years now. Maybe Lawson (Dunlap played much better once he was out of Cinci). Not sure if I trust the stats from the Saints kid or Romeo Okwara, they were both pretty meh up until this year. Worst case we can give Vernon a one-year, try to get healthy deal and see if a young pass-rusher is their in the 2nd round. Either way, we will need a fairly cheap running mate for Garrett in two years. Its possible Rousseau could slip in the draft, too, but he worries me a bit.

At Safety, man without knowing what Delpit is going to look like, it's really hard to say. I'm still leaning pretty heavily on a prove-it deal for a roaming Free Safety, but there's just so many tasty treats out there this year with Simmons, Maye, Williams, Harris and Johnson. Worst case, we sign Hooker short term to see if he can stay healthy, or maybe even Jalen Mills(he was much better at safety than at CB). The thought of a 3-safety look with [insert Safety here], Delpit and Harrison roving around in place of a linebacker makes me happy.
Besides, Joe Woods insisted his defense was a 2-LB defense

At CB2: this one depends on Money Mitch. If he wants to much, we still may be able to get a short-term guy as there are plenty of vets available. The frustration here is that if Greedy comes back healthy, between him, Ward, a slot corner above and potentially 3 safeties, this position could easily become the 7th defensive back. At the same time, like this year, between Ward and Greedy's injury history, this position could just as easily be the CB1. Madness. Seriously...madness. Ronald Darby and Sidney Jones flashed this year and aren't really guys who are going to get much "trust" in the league, soooo...maybe? Ugh...madness.

At D-tackle: I expect everyone will get sick of me typing this, but...extend Sheldon Richardson this year. We need to buy time. Elliott and Ogunjobi are eerily similar. Billings is only coming back for one year, and even though I would happily take Christian Barmore with the 26th pick, there will also be solid options available on day 2 to get a guy to strengthen the run defense and help cover Richardson and Elliott's issues with well...stoutness
We could go Dalvin Tomlinson here as an alternative (and subsequently draft a 3-tech to pair with Tomlinson, and Elliott going forward), but I think the Richardson move is more prudent.

That would leave our 1st 4 draft picks as what? Defensive End, Defensive tackle, outside corner and Linebacker (no particular ordder and hopefully time for guys to acclimate and develop).

Too much typing, where's the Tylenol? I'm having difficulty remembering where this stream of consciousness began.

This is the classic case of collaborative management.

Woods, Kevin and Berry have to have the meeting of the minds to decide scheme and scheme fit.

If your preference is to play a 2 linebacker three safety scheme. Then of course everything must fit.

The DL to the linebackers to the secondary have to have the skills to match the scheme.

One thing to bear in mind with the cap decreasing for 2021 is that it will likely go back up in 2022. Given that, you may see a LOT of free agents prefer to take one year deals this year.

Additionally, teams that are looking to be in Cap Hell may be very willing to trade some guys for not a lot once the new season kicks off.
If we had more space, we may have even been able to do another Brock Osweiller deal where a team gives us a draft pick to take a high priced player.

Well considering that if everybody comes back healthy next year we will be a top 10 defense
Bpa

With our cap space, returning players from injury and the draft we can fix the defense.

There are players who do not have well known names that can fit schemes. Guys who play on teams that have poor records and most people do not know much about.

I have confidence that the team the Browns field next year will be a very good team.

We were one play away from being in the AFC championship game. And we were missing key players from our own roster.

IMO we will be a force next year.

The 3 Browns moves that could change the defense like 3 moves last offseason changed the offense: Doug Lesmerises


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- If Browns general manager Andrew Berry can make the kind of moves this offseason for the defense that he made to improve the offense last offseason, an 11-5 team that won a playoff game in 2020 can make a jump to another level in 2021.

Berry filled three major needs for the offense a year ago with the biggest moves of his tenure. He nailed the Browns’ first-round draft pick with left tackle Jedrick Wills, and added two big-time free agents in right tackle Jack Conklin and tight end Austin Hooper. Wills and Conklin were Grade A additions, while Hooper, who saw his targets, catches and receiving yards go down compared to his 2019 season in Atlanta, still filled an important role in a Kevin Stefanski offense that needs reliable tight ends.

So just do that on the other side of the ball. Simple, right?

“I would say it is possible,” Berry said this week when I asked about the defensive case for a Wills-Conklin-Hooper package of additions. “I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s what we are going to do, but I really would not limit us or pigeon hole us into any type of strategic approach. Part of it is because we still have a fair amount of things to do.”

We’ll take possible.

Berry acknowledged the obvious in saying that last season’s additions focused on helping the offense and quarterback Baker Mayfield. The Browns did sign multiple defense veterans last offseason, giving one-year deals to linebackers B.J. Goodson and Malcolm Smith, cornerback Kevin Johnson, safeties Karl Joseph and Andrew Sendejo and tackle Andrew Billings. They signed defensive end Adrian Clayborn to a two-year contract.

But they were position fillers, not franchise changers.

On offense, the additions helped the Browns move from No. 20 in offensive DVOA (a measurement of overall efficiency) in 2019 to No. 9 in 2020. The Browns went from averaging 20.9 points per game, which ranked 22nd in 2019, to averaging 26.3 points per game in 2020, which ranked 13th.

Again ... just do that on defense. The Browns’ defense this season ranked No. 25 in DVOA, compared to No. 24 a year ago. It needs a boost.

The Browns had Nick Chubb, Odell Beckham, Jarvis Landry, Joel Bitonio, J.C. Tretter and Baker Mayfield on offense, and by turning left tackle Greg Robinson into Wills, right tackle Chris Hubbard into Conklin and tight end Demetrius Harris into Hooper, they raised the level of the pieces in place.

Now the Browns have Myles Garrett, Sheldon Richardson, Denzel Ward, Ronnie Harrison and presumably the healthy return of Grant Delpit and Greedy Williams on defense. Imagine a major upgrade at linebacker and at safety, and a defensive end addition who could help make up for the loss of Olivier Vernon, who tore his Achilles late in the season and is a free agent.

It’s probably not realistic to expect two huge free agent signings with what the Browns have ahead in taking care of their own young, franchise players. But let’s still use the Wills-Conklin-Hooper model for what could be ahead for the defense.

The first-round rookie who steps right in as a starter
Last offseason offense: Left tackle Jedrick Wills

This offseason defense: Linebacker Zaven Collins

The Browns found an ideal match of need, draft spot and player availability in the 2020 draft, filling their gaping hole at left tackle by plucking Wills at No. 10. Only one left tackle was off the board at that point, which gave the Browns a choice of Wills, Mekhi Becton and Tristan Wirfs, and based off their rookie seasons, the Browns couldn’t have gone wrong (though Wirfs did play right tackle in Tampa Bay). The pick was obvious because need, talent and options aligned. The same could happen at linebacker in this draft.

With the Browns picking at No. 26, they won’t be in range of the premium players at cornerback, receiver or pass rusher. Roughly speaking, there should five or six tackles; three or four corners; three or four pass rushers; and three or four receivers off the board by 26.

It seems like they might have a shot at the third linebacker, though. Penn State’s Micah Parsons and Notre Dame’s Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah are projected to be gone by 26. But that would leave a selection of linebackers on the table, led by Collins, an All-American at Tulsa this season.

You’ll see Collins mocked to the Browns repeatedly in the months to come. He’s 6-foot-4 and 260 pounds and he can move -- the type of every-down linebacker the Browns need. They did a lot of mixing and matching around Goodson (848 snaps) this season, with Smith (559), Sione Takitaki (435), Mack Wilson (372) and Jacob Phillips (169) all filling roles.

The Browns need either an upgrade over Goodson (who is a free agent and played better in the second half of the season but lacks playmaker speed) or a player who can settle down the revolving door next to Goodson. Finding that linebacker wouldn’t have been worth it last year at No. 10, when more vital positions were prioritized, but it makes sense at No. 26.

Baltimore took linebacker Patrick Queen at No. 28 last year and he made the All-Rookie team while leading the Ravens in linebacker snaps and tackles. The Chargers took Kenneth Murray at No. 23 last year, and he did the same, making All-Rookie and leading the Charters in linebacker snaps and in tackles. In 2018, the Colts took Darius Leonard early in the second round at No. 36, and he led the entire league in tackles as a rookie while leading the Colts in linebacker snaps.

Of course, you can find examples of successful picks to prove any case. But the idea of a linebacker drafted at this spot and then contributing immediately makes a lot of sense. Missouri’s Nick Bolton and North Carolina’s Chaz Surratt might also fit the linebacker thought process at 26, but Collins is the player you’ll get very familiar with before late April, and the one you may be hoping lasts until 26 on draft night.

How else it could go: Last offseason showed the Browns probably don’t want to spend a lot of money at linebacker, but if they choose to bolster this position through free agency instead, Tampa Bay’s Lavonte David is a nine-year veteran and second-team All-Pro who would change the entire linebacker situation immediately.

The high-priced free agent who fills a major need
Last offseason offense: OT Jack Conklin

This offseason defense: Minnesota S Anthony Harris

When the Browns needed a right tackle last season, they signed the best one on the market, giving Conklin a three-year deal worth $42 million to leave Tennessee. He was worth every penny, starting 15 games at right tackle, grading out as one of the 10 best tackles in the league according to PFF and being named an All-Pro.

Imagine that veteran impact on defense. After watching what Kansas City safety Tyrann Mathieu did as a clever, versatile, game-changing force, the value of a big-money safety for a team with Super Bowl aspirations came into focus. According to spotrac.com, the Browns’ highest-paid safety in 2020, Joseph, ranked 47th in average salary at the position. We know the Browns saved money there with one-year deals for Joseph ($2.5 million) and Sendejo ($2.25 million). Even the smart trade for Harrison, who is making less than $1 million per year on his rookie deal, wasn’t pricey.

So there’s a chance to go big here. Delpit has to work into the Browns’ plans, as he was expected to be the playmaker at this position before a torn Achilles ended his season before it started. But signing someone like Harris at safety covers a lot of bases as it relates to Harrison and Delpit.

Harrison and Delpit might be a safety combo that could work, but the Browns can’t bank on Delpit’s immediate full return to form off such a tough injury. So Harris helps that. If Delpit is ready to roll, then Harris, Delpit and Harrison as the three top safeties opens the door to more three-safety looks (which coordinator Joe Woods likes and which the Browns did a lot against the Chiefs), with Delpit a strong option to cover slot receivers.

Harris is coming off a bit of a down year after a spectacular 2019 in Minnesota. In 2018 and 2019 combined, he had the highest overall grade and coverage grade of any safety, according to PFF. A six-year veteran at age 29, he’s a good bet to leave Minnesota, with the Vikings needing to prioritize locking down younger safety Harrison Smith, who is a year away from free agency.

Harris made more than $11 million in 2020 and likely will get a raise from that in a multi-year deal. Five safeties, including Mathieu, made at least $14 million in 2020 and Harris may enter that group. The Browns paid Conklin that much and it was money well spent, because Conklin’s presence made the entire offense better. A safety like Harris, Denver’s Justin Simmons, New Orleans’ Marcus Williams, the Jets’ Marcus Maye or the Rams’ John Johnson III could pay off in the same way. PFF ranks those five safeties among the top 22 overall free agents, so there are potentially multiple options here for the Browns, even if a few re-sign with their current teams.

How else it could go: The Browns just spent a high pick on a safety, choosing Delpit at No. 44 last year, so the draft seems like less of an option. The Browns could bank on Delpit and Harrison as their top two safeties and bring in another cheaper veteran, but one above the Joseph-Sendejo level, like Detroit’s Duron Harmon.

The high-priced free agent who’s more of a luxury
Last offseason offense: TE Austin Hooper

This offseason defense: Pittsburgh DE Bud Dupree

The Browns signed two of the 20 biggest free agents by average value last offseason, giving Conklin $14 million per year and Hooper $10. 5 million per year. They also had the most cap space in the league last offseason -- but they’re also rolling over more cap value from 2020 to 2021 than any team in the league. So they can spend again.

Still, expecting two free agents like Conklin and Hooper might be asking too much. That means huge edge rusher free agent options like Cincinnati’s Carl Lawson, Tennessee’s Jadeveon Clowney, Tampa Bay’s Shaquil Barrett and Baltimore’s Yannick Ngakoue might be out of range. Taking a shot at shorter deals on mid-tier rushers might be more likely.

The status of Vernon changes the context here. The Browns looked at several edge rushers recently, including Clowney and Ngakoue, while looking to supplement, or maybe replace, what they had in Vernon. Then he raised his game in the second half of this season, and ended with a devastating injury.

Without Vernon, the Browns clearly need help opposite Garrett, as neither Porter Gustin nor Adrian Clayborn is a starter-worthy end. So sliding a veteran in here only to replace Vernon is really just aiming to keep the status quo. But the Browns could target edge rusher in the second or third round of the draft, then add a veteran and hope the mix actually improves the position in 2021.

A player like Dupree could slide right in to aid that. He tore his ACL in Week 12 and was lost for the year. An outside linebacker in Pittsburgh’s 3-4, he can be a dynamic pass rusher. A one-year deal to prove himself off the injury could benefit both sides, with the Browns needing him most on critical passing downs and Dupree, who turns 28 in February, taking the season to show he deserves a major multi-year deal.

He could very well do the same in Pittsburgh, signing for a year with the team he’s been part of for six seasons. But making a run at him seems like a worthy risk for the Browns. Arizona pass rusher Haason Reddick, who had 12.5 sacks this season after being moved from linebacker to edge rusher, could also be in the market for a shorter deal to prove he deserves a longer one. Takkarist McKinley, a player the Browns tried to claim after he was waived by Atlanta, could also fit as a pass rusher who will get a deal below the first-tier options.

How else it could go: Could the Browns go all-in here? It’s a premium position, and after locking up Garrett long-term, the best way to help him would be to invest in the other end spot. Imagine signing Lawson, the Bengals’ best pass rusher, who could increase his sack total and his chances of winning by sliding up I-71.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2021/01...lesmerises.html

I pretty much have hung up my coaching whistle and have been coaching individuals. I have a good rep for Speed coach.

I believe in the concept of TEMPO speed it is basically 75-80% of your sprint speed. It is that Tempo speed that most football players will run in their game time exploits and then when necessary explode into their top end speed. For LBs it would be around 3-5 yards from the ball carrier.

My concept is to improve that TEMPO speed and in doing so the Sprint speed also will improve. It also involves durability and the ability to lower the heart rate quickly (in between plays).