Last year year Andrew Berry made an assessment of the roster. His evaluation was made clear.

Baker needs help. We have to fix the OL and give Baker protection and tools.

Andrew recognized that he could not address the entire team and he formulated a two year plan.

This year he went through the same type of assessment. He recognized that the failures of 2020 were mostly in the defensive backfield.

Joe Woods was very limited in what he could do because the personnel on the defensive side of the ball.

Andrew fixed that.

JJ3, Walker, Hill, Newsome, Koramoah. The return of Greedy and Delpit. He also brought back Malcomb Smith.

He wanted better pressure on the quarterback to assist the the defensive backfield.

He brought in Clowney and Takk McKinley. He added Malik Jackson to replace Ogunjobi. Knowing this would get more push in the middle. Billings opted out last year. He will return. And they believe Elliott will contribute.

In the draft we added 5 defensive players and a undrafted free agent DT who was considered at least a mid round pick.
=================================================

So, Joe Woods now has players. In fact he has extremely versatile players. Players custom picked for the scheme he wants to run. A base 4-2-5. With options all over the place and depth.

We went from a suspect defense with glaring holes to what could be an exceptional defense.

Joe should be celebrating today.

Now we as fans will be able to really see what kind of defensive coordinator we have.

In fairness, we should give him at least 2 seasons to evaluate his work unless he’s completely inept

This is season two.

You have to coach what you have to work with. Even though he was limited last year. You are still the coordinator. You have to deliver.

This year it is not just the draft but veteran free agents.

We will have a full camp with no covid.

Come opening day we should hit the ground running.

For me I am super excited to watch this defense.

The front four should bring much better pressure. We have added much needed speed and versatility all over the defense.

We will have a mix of experience and youth on the back end.

I expect results.

Agreed Bone. I feel Joe Woods is a very good DC. He could only do so much with the players he had last year not to mention guys in and out of the line-up with injuries. With those problems then you add in Covid I think he did a real good job.

If he was completely inept we would not have made it to the playoffs

We should be markedly better on defense this year. If it isn’t improved then something is wrong.

Our secondary was the most emphasized unit over the past 3 months. Just like the OL was last year. Heck, maybe even more so.

This Defense should be in the top half of the league at least, with the personnel we have we should be a top 5/10 Defense ...

I disagree with your notion that "you still have to deliver". I wouldn't expect a NASCAR driver to compete driving a 1959 Ford Edsel.

You can't run a system without the talent to implement it.

This FO knew that when you have a young QB, giving him the protection and weapons he needs to succeed are your top priority. We've both been fans of the NFL long enough to see QB's ruined due to the pack of protection, talent and stability of a coaching staff. If Baker weren't so mentally strong it could have easily happened here. We are very fortunate he was drafted by the Cleveland Browns. As such last off season was used to invest in that accomplishment. And a great job they did at it.

This FO knew Woods wasn't being given the talent to run his D. Week after week I saw fans dogging Woods because they expected him to win the race with an Edsel. It was frustrating. I would use the old saying, "I'll bet you dollars to donuts" that this FO gave Joe Woods a mulligan last season, as they should.

But with the price of donuts these days that old expression doesn't carry the same weight as it used to.

I think defenses take longer to gel than offenses in a new scheme. We're going to have a lot of guys on D who were not here last year, so I think this season is more about betting better than holding Woods feet to the fire. Next year neither side should have any excuses like that.

Interesting take. I would think that would be the O where there is more precision and timing involved.

In general, I don't agree with the notion of be a great D or bust for Woods.

I do think we can safely expect a top 10 D with this roster at this point. If we are much below that, it will reflect poorly on woods. Of course we have to factor in the injury bug when looking at our coordinators.

JMHO, should, could, all those words. Like the consistency of Coach S...need to get better, and work. Last year is gone, we hope to improve, but every team on our schedule will be gunning for us...especially Pittsburgh. It's great to have better players on D...on paper...Coach them up Woods, we Cleveland backers want at least a repeat....Go Browns!!!

All the crap that happened last year with injuries, covid, zoom meetings, players lost etc.

Stefanski never wavered. "Embrace the suck." "Find a way to win."

Of course they knew all issues. They knew the limitations of the roster. They knew in the Jets game all the receivers were out. The playoff win with no head coach.

You can not give in to adversity. If you do. You will forever look for excuses.

However, when the season ends. They take into account the realities. Life is often not fair. But you are still judged by how you handle those adversities.

In general I can't disagree. We should be better. I just don't know that I would quantify it with a ranking. Lot's of things can impact a ranking that aren't necessarily a reflection of the job of the coordinator.

But sure, if after losses we can look back and it was clearly a result of poor D, then that's a problem.

maybe he did deliver.. maybe he exceeded the talent that we had.. to "deliver" doesn't mean to be the best, it means to make the whole greater than the sum of it's parts.. maybe given what he had to work with, we actually did better than we should have.

Exactly.

That is precisely what I meant to say.

"However, when the season ends. They take into account the realities."

During the season. Forge ahead.

I'm glad no one took my comments to be divisive. I'm trying to temper my expectations. Maybe it's the BFS Battered Fan Syndrome?

First off.. I think it's easier for a D to come together than it is for an O. Every year at training camp the D is wayyy ahead of the offense.

We Do Have vets at critical places.. Garrett, Ward, The entire Oline, the kickers, and most importantly.. finally! the QB is playing with last years coach, coordinators and receivers.

We lost a key vet in Richardson. We have rookies all thru this defense. Albeit they are highly rated draft picks.

Having said all that.. I expect playoffs. I have my expectations but, at the same time, I'm going to give this years rooks the better part of the season and evaluate how they are doing.

One thing I expect. We kick pittsburghs ass both games.

It's pretty safe to say that the entire team did that last year.. Lots of barriers to overcome and they did pretty well.

I wasn't impressed with Woods last year. There were games where I felt he didn't call good plays. But the D had many set backs - and I always thought our LB core was trash and after injuries to the secondary, the secondary was definitely poor. If anything a couple of the LB's surprised me with their play (and Phillips played faster than advertised).

That all said - I give Woods a clean slate and am happy to 'wait and see'. I don't have a good or a bad feel at the moment. I just want to see what he can do with a roster that has a chance to be good and will judge him based on this year (lord willing that we don't get decimated by injuries again).

I was disappointed in Woods last year. You always hope that a coordinator who's been dealt a rough hand can maybe surprise you. That said, his part of the roster was what it was, and then it was made worse by key injuries and then having to juggle people in his secondary.

A lot of new faces in the D this year, but our talent-light D last year was at its best in the beginning of the year, IIRC. He's got a big job to get his new guys all on the same page, but if things are still out of sync after a few games I'm going to get real worried really fast.

I was disappointed in our defense, but not in Woods.

When half of the starting secondary you were counting on to hold together the duct tape boat that was your defense go down for the year, it's tough.

This defense is predicated on coverage and pressure. We lost the ability to cover effectively, and then we had real trouble getting consistent pressure. Vernon missed time, Myles missed time, even when we had both of them we still had to rotate them and when both weren't out there, we could very easily struggle to get pressure. We couldn't cover RB's & TE's because of poor LBer play. We trade for Harrison to bolster the injured secondary, but then he misses time. It was just a metric butt-ton of "one step forward, one step back". The D just didn't have the wheels to do anything.

As for calls, I can't poo-poo that stuff. We don't have enough info to judge those decisions. At best, we could look at down & distance and what was called, but unless we are also looking at what personnel packages they were sending out, what their tendencies in situations are, and other factors, we're forming an opinion on too little information. I mean, to put it into fan terms, unless you've ever played Madden head-to-head with another human and NEVER called the wrong defense for what ended up getting ran by the other player, there isn't much room to be critical. It happens. Sometimes, it is you taking a gamble to try to create a big play, sometimes, you just get out-guessed, and sometimes your call was fine but it doesn't get executed well at all.

I am pretty sure that based on what I have read, if we don't make the playoffs, lose in the playoffs, or don't win the Super bowl, it will be Joe Woods fault.

Does that sum it up?

Not from me.

Last year you do all you can with what you got.

This year you do the same thing. The difference is talent.

No coordinator should be hung if he does not win it all.

However, win it all is always the goal until the season ends.

For me I want to see what this team does this year in Wood's scheme.

The players signed in free agency and the defensive players drafted. They were brought here to fit what he wants to do.

As we stand today if would seem that he has the players to fully implement his vision.

He wants to have base 4-2-5 defense. Then bring in sub packages.

We now have the corners. JJ3, Delpit,and Harrison give him great flexibility because of their skill sets.

But the guy to me that will tie this all together is Koramoah.

IMO he will be the Defensive ROY. Right guy in the right scheme. I see him as a four down player.

Nobody can guarantee a Super Bowl.

However, Woods has the players now and I am optimistic that we will unleash hell on offenses.

Not heard that from anyone..

Kind of overstated (and I havena heard that). There's this little matter of, oh, getting your first win in. Folks are talking like the work is done and hand us the SB.

Way too premature. We are all undefeated at this point.

I blame Joe Woods for you writing that.

This is where I largely find myself on Woods as well. I understand the talent deficiencies in the secondary but even so, to me the biggest issue was how often players were out of position. I always thought a guy who's strength is the secondary would have been able to address that more effectively. Signing JJ3 should solve that issue.

For me the biggest issue with the LBers was that they never seemed to have an actual role or defined function.

Some people expected too much, I also think some people expected too little.

Now he has all the necessary pieces. Our defense has speed, talent, and intelligence... I think Woods can put something special together with it.

When you combine free agency and the draft. Eleven new players on defense. Then add four who did not play last year. Billings, Delpit, Greedy, Weaver.

JJ3, Hill, Walker, Malik Jackson, Clowney, McKinley, Newsome, Koramoah, Togiai, Tony Fields, Richard Leconte.

Then add the five free agents on defense.

This is not adding on or a retool. This is a complete make over.

This is, count them, twenty guys to look at and incorporate into a defensive scheme.

Outside of Myles and Ward a completely different defensive team.

Joe Woods and his defensive staff along with KS have a lot of work to do.

It is a good problem. The additions were made because they needed to be made.

Now Woods must mold them into a unit. The D line will not have much of a problem because they are veterans and the learning curve is small.

However, linebackers and DB's will be more integrated. They will need to learn assignments with the base defensive and all the sub packages. Responsibilities will vary quite a bit in down and distance.

The good thing is the players are very versatile.

Personnel wise the sky is the limit. However, it may take a half a season to really blend.

I think it'll go quicker and smoother than you think.
There are multiple guys in every position group that knows the defense, already.

Delpit & Greedy didn't play, but they were here for camp. They've sat in on the meetings, they've gotten the playbook.

Ward, Ronnie Harrison, Redwine, Moffat, M.J. Stewart ... those guys know the secondary roles and responsibilities.

Takitaki, Mack, Malcolm Smith, Jacob Phillips, Meander.... these guys know the Linebackers roles and responsibilities.

These are all guys that got playing time during the season in this defense, and all of these guys, along with the coaches, will be helping the new guys get in sync with everyone else.

Gustin, Elliot, Garrett.... heck, we might be thinnest on experience in the DLine, but, again, we're getting back Billings and Weaver, too. They have, at the very least, had access to the playbooks and been in on some meetings before they opted-out.

This isn't going to be a fresh install of a foreign and brand new defense. There is a large knowledge base already in place that is going to get guys to hit the ground running.

Good points.

However, playing together is the key and that depends on how fast they figure it out.

Last year we had freaking Sandejo as a starter...enough said. We just didn't have the talent on defense.

I think we have over come that now and by game 8 this D should be amazing.

jmho - Woods is freaking GOOD!

It was worse than merely that. Toward the end of the season when covid and injuries were hitting a bit, I distinctly remember hoping Sendejo would be able to play because he was an improvement over what was behind him.

Even during a winning season we find ways to be desperate lol

SMH
Shaking My Head Loudly! Sandejo was sorry, but he did earn his starts by comparison.

(Memory barf)

We can complain about Sandejo’s play but in the crazy year that was 2020 he had one of the most important abilities that many of our studs didn’t have... availability. Dude is durable.

Yea, I don't know how he stayed out of the hospital as many times as he was burned.

In my mind this is Woods debut, he had very little to work with.

With that said he is about to change from using duct tape and prayer to build a defense that will be at least functional.

My keys are if Taki-Taki and Wilson are still on the squad then will still suck. Never have I seen worse play from LBer's then these two guys. Missed tackle after missed tackle from a position that has a primary responsibility to tackle.

Philipps needs to improve his coverage skills and he needs to take better angles to the ball. He has it in him to be great if the coaches can get him to improve in these 2 areas will have a stud LB. He has speed and he can tackle. This defense from my perspective is very well positioned to be dominate. This D intends to start Philips and Walker with JOK eventually replacing him as he grows in the defense. I praise the hell out of Berry for bringing in the pieces to build a dominate defense.

It all really comes down to what kind of a teacher developer of talent is Woods? He has the pieces in my mind to build a dominate defense can he? I believe he can.

I see the Super Bowl in our future and for at least the next 5 years the Browns have the pieces to be a dominate football team.

When I look at this football team on paper I see dominance in every area. Berry in my mind is doing and outstanding job bringing in talent to address our needs both in FA and the draft he was perfect IMO.

I love this football team they have greatness on their finger tips.

But what if the scheme is just flawed, and it places everybody out of position.
And thus other teams' QB's can run as well as, or better than, against this D, as last years.
Then consider now with more pieces of the puzzle acquired the team decides to run the favorite defense more often, which could exploit the flaw(s) in it more often. Just a guess...
I don't know...
Could be the opposite...
That's why they play the games.

I am more at peace with Berry and Stefanski than I have been with any GM/HC combo we have had.

I agree about Woods. This will be his defense. Berry has given him precisely the players needed to execute his plan.

I think Walker is being under sold. This guy was a defensive captain on a good defense. A defense that included Darius Leonard playing outside linebacker.

I see JOK being a similar player to Leonard.

IMO Walker and JOK will be the guys starting in the base 4-2-5.

The upgrades in the secondary will be huge and the pass rush, secondary, along with more speed at linebacker should increase turnovers.

The defensive changes have turned what was a weakness to a strength. That is why this team is now one of the best in football.

We have now what I have been waiting for.

A team ready to compete for the NFL Championship.

On paper, I agree. For the D, much will depend on the team chemistry, and you don't find that on paper.

I don't anticipate problems. I just offer that as a cautionary note in that it still needs to work on the field.

That is accurate.

The thing that makes this all positive is continuity of the coaching staff.

We are all not far removed from: "Will we ever have a head coach and GM remain in Cleveland?"

It is not possible to achieve success the way this team has been run. Repeat Impossible.

So, to go from where we were 3 short years ago to today is astounding.

The vibe inside the organization is something we have never had. Everyone is pulling in the same direction. Going from dysfunction to unity is a massive change.

I have great faith based upon the adversity overcome last year. That this coaching staff will have these guys ready.

Talent > Scheme..........by a long shot. If our players come close to living up to expectations, it will take a monstrous Huesque failure by the coaching staff to not be successful.

Joe Woods is a good DC. He knows what he's doing. He got a lot out of our D last year and don't forget all the injuries he was dealing with. Guys in and out of the lineup on a weekly basis. With the talent we have and given time to play together our D should be very good.

No question in theory.. But if you are given a college level team and expect them to complete with the Pros, it's just not going to happen.

I think Joe did a great job with what he had to work with. Well that and all the injuries and Covid etc. Assuming we stay somewhat healthy, This year, there is just no excuse..

I think one thing is for sure, and it Narely works well for OHIO.
It seems real hard to avoid reading the press clippings.

Browns 23-19, just 4 games over 500 since Hue left.

The Ravens are 35-13 in the full 3 years.

(Now! If we want to say Kitchens'... if we want to say they could have been 9-7 instead of 6-10, that would still only be 26-16 since the mid season change to whatever coach in 2018. (And that's With Baker, and Myles, and Ward.) (OBJ, and Landry Too, largely).

And I have to try and ignore Jim Rome putting the Browns in the AFC champ game?, GMAXB! They have to make the playoffs first.
They have to beat the Texans before;... in their Home Opener,
(Do teams that lose to the Texans in their home opener make the playoffs?) NO!
One game at a time, (I know they open at KC)

A Long road ahead, to be reading? Press clippings

I can't find 'Huesque' in any dictionary.

Yet we were all witnesses.

Hemilked a lot out of the D last year in spite of the bumps like injuries, COVID, social practices, and Sandejo to name a few. What you and Homewood are saying, indirectly, is if we need to slap a patch on a problem this season, well, we got us some better patches. Feeling good going into this meat grinder compared to Huey and the last few years.

I agree Bone I too have been bitten by the vibe the feeling coming from Berea it is our turn and it's going to be better then we could ever imagine.

It has been my long standing dream to see my Brown's lift the Lombardi and finally I believe like never before that dream is about to be realized. With the depth and commitment across the board to winning as a team to face embrace and overcome adversity this team stands on the edge of greatness and we get to come along for the ride.

What more is there to say? What more could any fan ask for this team looks like no other Browns team I have ever been witness too. They are deep and they are oh so good/great. It starts where it ended we have some unfinished business in KC and I can think of no better way to kick off our run then where it ended.

One of the Questions for the Browns, well a couple,
1, Just who are the top 5 Db's, maybe 6 Dbs' in the dime, or big nickel,
Who are the top 5 Db's on the Browns Roster.

2. What is the total number of games, wherein 3 or more of those top 5 Db's, will be out of the line up for the same Game.

Zero
Zero- 0.5
Zero- 0.75
Zero- 0.85
Or The **@*#*#* World's gonna end!

At times I have to pinch myself.

Am I dreaming or what?

I told my son I will put my head on the pillow for sleep. Then I start to go over each position. Then go to the backups of each position.

After that exercise I reflect of what Berry and Stefanski have done.

It is not a matter of first and second year. It is about the logic of decisions. How things are handled. How people conduct themselves. How the players have responded to the coaches.

In simple terms it is the difference between amatuer and professional.

We are now have a professional organization. They have a plan. They work the plan.


The way free agency and the draft were handled. The players signed and selected. Decisions on the roster.

Even though I liked Sheldon Richardson. I understand the move. I would like him back. But I understand not paying that money on Sheldon at that position.

It is a mixture of analytics, salary cap, age, and priorities.

PFF is interesting in how they analyse roster moves. They really deep dive into each decision. Not in a right or wrong opinion format but the logic behind the decision.
They love what the Browns have done A+ grade.

We are going to be a force in the NFL for a long time.

This is just the beginning.

Johnny Johnson was a big addition in FA. A highly-rated safety who can be a leader back there.

It's going to be interesting to see what teams try to do to exploit our weaknesses when I roll that around in my head a bit I just can't find any. This team is deep and fast and built to compliment each phase of the game.

We now have the team speed to deal with players like Kelce and Hunt, and Jackson as well. They are likely to try to run on us and they may have some measure of success but when you can't throw the ball and our offense is taking apart you're defense it becomes difficult or even impossible to keep up.

This team is unbelievable IMO. This is the kind of build that creates dynasties. It's not hype either.

I too would give every move made an A+.

Also, Stefanski helped the players reach another level mentally last season. We were resilient, disciplined, prepared and confident to a degree I hadn't seen since the 80s'. Putting that together with the physical talents on this team. It should be even better this year. Wow!

Guard you captured it perfectly, well said.

That is an excellent point.

Kevin has poured a mind set. There is no whinning.

Adapt and overcome. Everyone has a role. Be prepared and be ready to contribute.

Work hard and find a way.

Now the players know exactly how their coach will handle things and what he expects from them.

What if, the reason they went 6-10, in 2019, were the 12 games Greedy actually played in. He had 2 Pbu's in 2 years, 35% of games.

I don't know what the Browns are going to do at corner without Mitchell, maybe one of these UDFA's will work out.

Since the days of Marty....

Do you know what free agents were signed and who was drafted first?

Mitchell was a backup. Forced to start because of the Greedy injury.

Maybe you should go to Cleveland.com and look at the roster page. Then look at who the corners are and their profiles.

I check those a hundred times a year sometimes. This is not about knowing who was signed, this is a difference in the interpretation of how effective things go because of those signings.

I refuse to buy in to the group think. Rather, I'm pre-disposed, personality wise, that the more group think I hear reinforced, the LESS LIKELY I AM TO BELIEVE IT!
because I've been burned too many times before.

There has to be another way to look at things, Unpopular or not! This Browns Defense!
has a potential,
to take a major, step, back, this year.
1. Most people are underplaying how well it played last year, in,, especially in regards to Run Defense.

Richardson Vernon, claibourne, Sendejo, Mitchell, Thomas, Kevin Johnson, (I'm forgetting a Db), are not returning to the defense.
It's always been my opinion players who leave a team hurt it more than players who join a team help it, if they are even 35/65 comparable, at least in the short run.
I remember every off season add from JJ3 to Square, Troy Hill may have been first, but the team, media machine, may be overselling some of their greatness.
... Maybe Walker was earlier,
How could they have properly addressed the CB position, if they haven't taken the field, and the whole D hasn't taken the field.
( It's a very hard lesson to learn, that the trade up for JOK was kind of a trap, like an impulse buy at the checkout counter,) <- it's 50/50 whether that proves right or wrong over the next several.
No matter who they suit up, nobody is going to stop Qb's from finding slot Wr's with linebackers, consistently over time.
The Browns only think they are better against running Qb's, like Josh Allen in 2019, today than then.

Every player that was added is at LEAST AS GOOD in run defense as the departed player whose shoes he is filling.

Yes, all of this is conjecture - no matter which side you fall on - but, on paper, we should be IMMENSELY improved in the passing game, and with the likes of Clowney, we will be better in the run game, too. There are few DE's better than him in the run game. Period. Vernon is not and was not. Adrian Clayborn definitely was not. Sendejo was an unguided missile; he was a liability in the run game at least as often as he showed up and made a play... the rest were marginal role players and didn't factor into the run defense much at all, and ALL of them (the DBs) have been improved upon significantly with their replacements.

You are correct that QB's will still get theirs; there is no doubt to that. What is different now is that we will stop them with increased frequency; it won't be such a gimme, especially in long yardage situations. We will win much more of those than we used to, which was almost none of them. Troy Hill is one of the best, if not THE best, slot corners in the league. He will do wonders for us and is a major upgrade over last year. JOK, who you love to hate, will be a LB that can do what none of ours have been able to do for years... cover RBs & TEs over the middle. Hell, he has the speed and quicks to cover a slot WR, too. So, our ability to cover the middle of the field, from a pure talent viewpoint, is DRAMATICALLY improved as is out ability on the perimeter. Yes, these guys still need to get on the field and prove aby doing it, but what we're working with this year versus last year is night and day. It literally isn't even a fair comparison at all.... and I am not afraid of being the negative Nancy naysayer that shoots down hype.

IF these guys stay healthy, this defense is about as complete as any you will have ever seen. It is actually just STUPID how stacked it is.
If/when we take injuries, we actually have enough depth to still be rolling out starter-caliber talent most everywhere. Losing a Greedy & Delpit won't sink us this year.

Just my opinion.

I think you are wrong about everything related to this topic.

There are a number of ways to verify if you decide to do so.

Berry addressed the defense in the same manner that he did the offense the year before. Through free agency and then the draft.

Defensive improvements were made because they needed to be made.

You either believe Berry knows more than you or you do not.

LOL! THROW LONG must be posting from an insane asylum.

Wow. This year should be better defensively. No lead was safe last year with Sandejo especially leading group that couldn't kill drives and get itself off the field. I think this group will be better by being stronger up the middle. One of us will have his judgment shot down.

Hope we tear this up.

Group think = Red is red and blue is blue... but Throw sees it for it's true color purple.

If the other guys we brought in to fill shoes at DT pan out and we are able to get good, quick, disciplined pressure on a fairly consistent basis with just our front four, this defense is going to destroy offenses.

Seriously, other teams will be sick of us by mid-season.


Myles Garrett probably had a dozen "Almost" Sacks last year. Those sacks where he was just a heartbeat or two too slow in getting to the QB because we couldn't cover anything and the opposing QB almost always had at least one read that was open on every play.
We have a DEEP secondary that can - on paper - shut that down and give Myles at least another 2 to 3 seconds, which is almost an eternity for him. Additionally, with Clowney on the other side and the guys we have inside, they can't consistently double and triple him, now. OC's are going to be eating antacids and pulling their hair out trying to figure out how to slow our rush. They'll try RPO, play action, runs. They'll try to spread us out and use screens.
We have the speed to cover all of that. We have guys smart enough and savvy enough to recognize all of that. We also have an offense that can score like a video game that will force them to pass to try to keep up... and that's when we smother and kill them.

We will still have a few games where we struggle, but those will be two types of teams:

Strong defenses that can slow our offense to their speed, and teams with BIG lines that can man-handle our guys.
There aren't too many of either one on our schedule.

I don't know about 2-3 seconds, but it should be long enough to turn a good amount of "almosts" in to sacks.

That or the QB is going to throw it anyway and the DB is going to break up the pass or in some cases, pick it off. That or the QB is going to throw more or less in to no mans land. Not so much a grounding of the ball, simply a pass that falls incomplete.

They want to spread the Browns defense out?

with 13 guys on the field that can pursue?

Did I say 14? It will seem like 15.

Offensive Tackles' film study.
"Who's this?"
"Clowney".
"What happened to Myles?"
Next play.
"Who's this?"
"Takk!"
Next play.
"Who's this?
"Myles"
" I thought I was playing Takk!"
"This isn't going to go well for you."

This is another reason I'm so excited by Marvin Wilson. If he's playing up to his potential he will absolutely demand a double team! Then all of our other front-seven players get fed.

I am not so sure he needs to be double teamed on passing plays.

On running plays he should, which no doubt will help to keep our undersized backers clean.

I think Wilson makes the team for that reason.

Help me here because I don't know much about Marvin Wilson?

He was an undrafted free agent. Not sure if he will make the team? The Browns have brought in a bunch of guys to look at.

The starters will be Billings, Malik Jackson and Elliot.

Defensive tackles of the roster:
Billings
Jackson
Elliot
Sheldon Day
Malik McDowell
Damain Square
Marvin Wilson
Tommy Togiai

Togiai was a fourth rounder. He will get a good look. He is expected to make the team and contribute.

Why would Wilson require double teams?

Actually I don't believe we have a DT on the team that is worth a double team.

Sheldon Richardson was a former 1st rounder and played the majority of snaps last year. He didn't get doubled.

Takki or Wilson won't be on the team at the start of the season.

that's my hot take

A general question about Marvin Wilson. Apparently there is a lot of potential there, and it seems like there was a crap-ton of interest in him as a UDFA. Why would a team that was really interested in him not use a 6th or 7th on him? Waiting for him to hit UDFA is a gamble - not only does he have to make it through without getting picked, then you have to outbid other teams for him.

This kind of thing as happened before. It's almost like teams agree to let the guy go undrafted.

I believe Wilson is a dominant 1-Tech. Able to defend the run and pressure the QB in passing situations. If offenses choose to double team Myles or Clowney on passing downs Wilson is capable of winning many one-on-one blocks he would face. His upper body power is considerable, his hand usage is advanced and his leg drive is at minimum, average to slightly above average.

I posted this before but maybe you didn't see it.



Wilson brings a physicality to our Dline that Pittsburgh or Baltimore have routinely had but we did not.

Kind of puts me in mind of Ted Washington.

1. That guy's analysis is hilarious.

2. I'm super excited about this guy, now.

Voch Lombardi knows how to turn a phrase. Like, "fat boy effort" it's both colorful and insightful. I really like how he breaks down defensive players. He can be very intricate. Especially for defenders, he's my favorite youtube analyst.

Plays too high,stops his feet,and he needs a yellow triangle tacked to his butt that reads "slow moving vehicle"
A good college player,that's his ceiling.

Really in-depth analysis on your part. If what you say were true, these are correctable issues with coaching. Excluding your incisive evaluation of his speed which was measured at 5.09 in the 40 for a guy over 300 lbs.

I'm going to trust my eyes. Feel free to trust your own.

Sorry to disappoint.I had no idea you were expecting a thesis on a UDFA that,chances are,he won't make the team.
If he's still here in Sept. I'll take a closer look.

Thanks for the tape.

Interesting. He will get a close look for sure.

He signed a big deal for a free agent. There was interest in him. He has a resume.

Looks like the type of development player teams look for.

If he takes to coaching and gives full effort he may find a home.

Berry does not miss. Everytime you look into the players he brings to the house. You see the potential.

So good luck to Marvin. I hope he comes to play.

Disapointment would require an investment. Look or dont look. Handle your business.

Marvin Wilson, appears, to have very big upside if all goes perfect in development.
"The Starters will be Question, Malik Jackson if healthy, and Question.

Elliott and Sheldon Day are 7, and 8 on the list above, and it's hard for people to see it. but that's just my opinion.

I think whomever, ends up 6-8 out of those, to be stashed somewhere other than the game day rosters, ir, ps. or waived.

Why would Wilson not require double teams? (say it out loud.) because he was a udfa.

Is that reasonable?

(Only if human nature forbids the possibility he was overlooked in the selecting of 259 top players,((individually in 15 minute intervals, reacting on the fly)), because human nature, of the NFL clubs, never overlooks anything.)

He definitely has a bit of an uphill battle, even moreso if Richardson somehow comes back, but he has a ton of potential.

I'm not going to sweat who is a starter and who isn't; I'm actually going to enjoy watching how it shakes out over the summer. There should be some pretty good battles on the interior of the DLine.

I agree with you. Yet at the same time I try to keep in mind that not living up to their potential is the very reason they weren't drafted in the first place.

Competition.

From Depo and the analytics group DT is not a place where you spend big. Sign vets to short terms. Draft guys from mid to late rounds. Bring in some free agents.

Let the cream rise.

We have a group to look at. A mixture of the above.

They decided not to pay Sheldon. Maybe he returns. Maybe not.

It looks like we can keep two decent DT's on the field.

We spend of the edge. That is where we must excel.

You do realize that's the exact same thing people were claiming on here about the LB'er position before the draft where they drafted JOK, right?

I'm not buying it. I haven't seen any quote from our FO saying what you are claiming. And like I said, people that were doing nothing more than reading their crystal balls said the same thing about the LB'er position. It appears their crystal balls were out of adjustment.

I disagree.

Drafting JOK does not change what analytical data provides.

All you need to look is the money. At 26 they took Newsome over JOK. Not the other way around and both were ranked in the high teens. When JOK was there at at 50 it made sense to make the trade and get him. Value and scheme fit.

First time contracts in the second round are not a heavy cap hit.

They liked Sheldon but refused to pay him.

Look at the DT on the team:

Elliot - third round - 4yr contract avg. per yr. $1.1m
Billings - Free agent - 1yr $3.5m
Sheldon Day - FA - 1yr $990k
Malik Jackson - FA 1yr. $3.75m
Malik McDowell- FA 1yr. $360k
Damion Square - FA 1yr. $1.2m
Marvin Wilson - undrafted FA $192k
========================================

Look at defensive end and money spent Myles, Vernon, Clowney, Takk McKinley

Look at corner.
Look at OT.
Look at receiver.

The Browns are tied with highest number of analytics staff.
They don't ignore data.

If they felt DT was a high priority more money would have been spent at that position. They could have easily paid Sheldon. The data told them where money should go.

So, the money trail tells the story.

JOK was value and scheme fit. You didn't see them trade up in the first round to get Parsons?

You don't see big dollars spent on the linebacker unit.

All draft picks are paid cheaply. That's not disputed. Defensive end is a higher paid position across the league. That doesn't mean you just let every team run the ball up your gut while you "Let the cream rise".

Draft picks are a valuable asset that have much more value than the rookie contract you are paying them.

You are doing the exact same thing posters did when speaking about the LB'er position. You're basing an assumption of how a new FO will address the DT position after only one season of building a roster. We aren't even finished with this coming seasons roster yet.

I found out a long time ago you should never trust how a new recipe is going to taste before it's even gone into the oven.

Number one rule of working with data: correlation is not causation.

What you propose is merely one possible takeaway that only looks at isolated sets of the data. You absolutely could state it as "I think they don't value...", but in no way can you absolutely state for fact that this is the case.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that while money was absolutely a factor in the release of Sheldon Richardson, it in no way indicates they do not value the position. In fact, their moves before and after strongly suggest otherwise; and applicability of the 80/20 rule probably plays a factor. e.g. They value the position greatly, and they value what Richardson brings, greatly, but the market for the skillsets doesn't support that level of play, especially if they feel they can get 80% of the production he brings in the skillsets they are looking for at a dramatically lower price point.

It isn't a sign of not valuing the position, but a sign of finding value at the position and not overpaying versus what the market supports.

Furthermore, when you take into consideration just the one simple fact that this entire scheme is predicated upon pressure up front and coverage on the back, that tells you that they very likely value all four spots up front VERY highly; it's just that they felt that the extra that Richardson might bring to the position wasn't enough to warrant the extra high pay in relation to younger, cheaper guys with a similar skillset, or skillsets that may more closely fit what Woods is wanting from his DT's.



You can't peer through a knothole and see everything on the other side of a fence.

I forgot Togiai.

Not an assumption. Look at the money spent.

Analytics are very clear on where to spend. It is a huge part of having that staff.

Linebacker and DT are not where big money will go.

Will there be an exception? Sure, if they see a Aaron Donald type in the first round when they draft and they have him ranked higher than other positions available.

When Depo kept his job through the changes. Haslam valued his input. He is now established within the organization and works closely with Berry. Everything is considered in free agency and the draft.

For sure what the data says about where to spend.

Defensive tackle is not a high dollar priority with the Browns. That does not mean they don't want production from the position. It just means they feel they can get enough production without spending big.

I have serious doubts about seeing the Browns draft running backs, defensive tackles, and linebackers in the first round. I also doubt they will spend big in free agency at those positions.

Look at the contracts signed this year at linebacker.
Both Walker and Smith are on one year deals. The rest are fills. Wilson and Taki came before Berry. You can bet now about them getting another contract.

Can you show me any statement from Depo supporting this? I haven't seen any. I can't say any better then PPE did about the DT position. Try reading his post and tell me what you think.

From reports they were tried to get Richardson to stay for around 8 million. Does that say they aren't willing to pay a DT?

Seems obvious to me that this FO is trying to create value or showing what they value for this situation, like with one-year and rookie first contracts. That will pay off later after their success during the present staging phase. Bigger names are bigger fish to fry IMO. I feel great about where we are with signings and setting the table for the future if we prove out.

IMO both of you are are jumping at "position value."

There is no position that is not valued. Football is a team game.

It is a matter of what positions they will spend more money for.

There is a priority for some versus others. That does not mean there are not exceptions or that is the sole defining factor.

Analytics are a tool. Depo has stated many times how to view the data. He is not going to say "we will not spend big money for linebackers, runningbacks and defensive tackles." No one in his position with any team will say that.

However, it easy to see what positions they will spend more for. And it is easy to track what positions are drafted early.

Just look at the dollars they committed to the position or when they drafted players at that position.

Clearly their actions speak.

jc

i hope joe woods can turn out to be a good DC. hopefully we can simply chalk last season to COVID, but man i'm still worried about the health of our secondary.

regardless, i'm excited about this defense. i do wonder who will win the #2 CB spot. Greedy hasn't played that much, so did he already leapfrog greedy or will there be a true competition?

i still don't like letting go of Richardson. i get this value perspective as far as the numbers, but there still has to be that element of things you can't statistically measure. from locker room/on field presence to experience.

i do really like our line, but having him included in our rotation just far more sense than cutting him for value. especially when this appears to be a championship window we're chasing.

but barring injury, there's gonna be no excuses. i get growing pains early in the season, but come mid season our defense better be in full form if healthy. he has the talent on the field, so lets go.

Can you steer me in the direction of the reports for around 8 million? I tried Google but I had no luck. I'm not doubting you but I would like to read about it.

You don't spend for a position, you spend for talent at a position and you pay based on what the market support. At no point, ever, do you say "well, he's a CB so I'm ok giving him $10 million more than what the market supports"

You're staying myopically focused on one little aspect without taking in the rest of the picture. It isn't (in my opinion based on my observations) that they won't spend because they don't value the position, it is that they won't spend because there isn't a talent at that position that warrants that much more. There is a distinction there that you're skipping over

I'm with you; I want Richardson back, but after the other moves we've made - if these guys pan out and can show up on the field - I feel a bit more comfortable with the notion. We are absolutely a better DLine with him here, and the man deserves to run with a winner. Until this past season, he has spent his entire career in NFL purgatory on bad teams. He's a really damn good player that is a leader and a role model type - he doesn't get into trouble, he just goes about his business, and he shows up and plays hard every week. There's a lot of value in a guy like that.

Unfortunately, he's asking more than we feel he is worth as a player, and the rest of the league seems to be waiting for his price to come down, too, so I'm ok with waiting it out. I definitely want him back, but Berry has the bases covered and we have enough here that we stand a really good chance of being Ok without him, even though we'd be better with him.

You may interpret that I am skipping over that but I am not.

Clearly they made the decision to let Ogunjobi walk. That decision was based upon performance and money.

Sheldon is the same. They like him. I like him. But they were not good with paying him $12m.

It is a matter of a number of factors.

However, positions groups evaluated on stand alone basis are also a factor.

DE pass rushers are more valued than DT.

Numerous times I stated there are exceptions and other factors like age, injury history etc.

Non on their own dictate decisions.

DE's are always paid higher than DT's. CB's and LT's are paid high as well. But there are salaries in place across the NFL that establish their value.

And unless I am misunderstanding you, the Browns will pay within that same pay structure for the position given that the player has the talent.

Agree

In the end the team has to balance a salary cap over an entire roster. In the case of Richardson, he was deemed to be making more than worth when balancing the entire salary scale.

The team decided cutting him was better than cutting maybe two players somewhere else.

When you are a good team, the decisions become harder. I don't think we wanted to cut him. The realities of salary cap, him being older and in the last year of his contract made him the man on the bubble.

For my part, I hope we remain in a position where cutting a play like Richardson becomes common. That means we have a good team.

We just saw some articles on Weaver. Maybe keeping a player like him was deemed more important moving forward than keeping Richardson for this year.

I'm in the hospital fighting to stay alive so I can see my Browns wife thinks it's her...lol

Hopefully getting discharged today!

If this is the only coaching thread,

I just want to discuss, (I think, iirc.) Stefanski is still the offensive playcaller, And

there's a tiny bit... of evidence, (or a massive glaring picture), but
I like coach so a
tiny bit of evidence the team looked better in the ONE game, that Stefanski had to stay home and watch.

Alex Van Pelt, appears to have had some nice effect on the offense of the Browns' ingenuity.

None of those ^ really demands a change, in fact there is no change for a successful team but everything should always be "kept an eye on".

So, Coaching, just a hunch on my part, just a hunch, just a "keep an eye on"

For a team to have a head coach calling offensive plays, it is just a matter of time,

Look at it like this.
A team that has any head coach calling offensive plays, imo, (may be, not always but, May be)-
like having a 7 year old help you move, even if you give them easy things to carry and keep a sharp eye on them, it's just a matter of time until something breaks.

The only coaching thread.

Come on, TL. Andy Reid, Kyle Shanahan, Sean Peyton and Sean McVay call their own plays. That should put an end to your theory. If not, start a new thread.

That's the difficulty with small sample sizes. Did they look better, or did they just look different? Was it being different enough to catch teams off guard because they could only prepare for Stefanski's tendencies? It's hard to say one way or another, BUT.. like you said, ALWAYS remain open to change and improvement, not matter who is involved. Greatness within a team comes from individual humility and recognizing that someone else may be a better fit for things, or simply accepting that you may need help to get the most out of everyone.

I don't feel that Stefanski is against any of it. I get the feeling that he mostly wanted to retain control to get HIS offense in place in HIS way and to get the players AND coaches in line with that. I could absolutely see him allowing Van Pelt, or whomever, to take over those duties, if necessary, once he feels things are well enough established and he has a comfort level with whomever it is he hands it off to.



When military officers move up in rank and eventually take over larger commands, one of their biggest struggles is the one where they aren't the one that gets to go in the field with their men any longer... I envision becoming Head Coach and handing off all of the play calling to be rather similar.

In the spirit of humility, I must admit that your post was much more measured and just better than my own.

No - actually I think what you said hit the nail squarely on the head.

Stay positive Tab. You can win the battle.

We have waited a long, long, time to get to this point.
All the energy from every corner is happening.

The Browns know what this fan base is about. They pick up on all this positive energy.

Stick together; we got this.

Hang tough, Tab! FGight the good fight.

Hope you're doing better tab!

Tab I wish you the best. My wife is going through a tough time right now so I understand what it's all about. Hang in there and you'll be in my prayers.

Don't you DARE Bungles it up and kick the bucket before we win it all at least twice, buddy. We'll resurrect your ass just to take you back out :lol:

This is really interesting to me.

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/..._16748_34971842

The Browns have been ranked by CBS analyst as the number three rated defense.

The article goes into the depth of why.

If the Browns fisnish the 2021 with the third ranked defense. There will be a lot of happy people in Cleveland.

A third ranked defense will provide the offense with more opportunities. A lot more.

The Browns offense will be a least top ten and that is very conservative. I mean they have the highest ranked offensive line.

I do not need to go over the offensive weapons this teams has.

This is where hype goes out the window.

Damn where is September?

If we have the 3rd best defense, the Super Bowl is a real possibility.

Gotta get to 3rd best 1st, though.

It will definitely be less enjoyable to celebrate a Brown's Super Bowl if one of our long time Dawg Talkers couldn't. Praying for you and let that be an incentive!! Go Browns!

Don't know how I missed your post earlier Tab ... sending good karma and positive energy your way friend.

113 days...

Indeed. For some people, the 'getting" is the easy part. The "letting go" is the problem.

Let's go Eo.

Thanks guys feeling better than I have in a long time. Got to get back in physical shape and do some walking, golf and swimming right now going to the bathroom is a treat...lol