Being somewhat 'oldschool', it's my opinion that if the Browns are going to win a championship, it will be up to the strength of our defense to lead the way.

Given the moves the Browns management have made during this off season, they are viewing the needs for team success much as I do.
A majority of the upgrades have been on the defensive side of the ball.

Now it's up to the defense to show up and perform, especially at those critical times when a key defensive stop will ice the game for the Browns.

Improved defense and the quality of the Browns' depth will be major keys if the Browns compete for the big prize.

jmo, mac

They are going to need a super defensive performance to beat the chiefs.

That applies to any team that plays the Chiefs.

First they had to build the protection of Baker.

Then they had to fix Baker. Get his feet to work with his eyes. AVP had a plan. Baker worked the plan.

This off season was used to build the defense. Free agency and then the draft.

Once OTA's began and all through the camp. The defense was worked on. All the new players were fit in and they worked through technique and execution.

Injuries may have slowed down on field practice. However, classroom and playbook. I am sure got plenty of work.

What will help are the veterans at each level. The line will be fine.

Walker is a big add to second level. He will help JOK and who else is in there.

JJ3 is the key add to the secondary. He will keep the last line in place. Very vocal guy who really knows what offenses are trying to do.

Yes. It is the defense that will complete the team.

Post season is about slowing down great quarterbacks and top offenses.

JJ3 is an addition but Terrence Mitchell is no longer here.
like someone said, putting all their eggs in the Delpit and Greedy basket for the year after they put all their eggs in the Delpit and Greedy basket last year.

This year, Terrence Mitchell isn't waiting to bale/bail them out.
It could be a Rude Awakening.

JMHO, your statement is baloney. The front office brought in several DBs and Safeties. We went MAINLY D this year in the off-season, but added key O pieces too. OBJ back, DPJ isn't a 6th rd anymore, Schwartz and Felton are good adds- especially Schwartz with is scary speed.

Our D must perform, yet, something not mentioned much is the game of KEEP AWAY. We need to shorten the game by scoring on long time consuming drives...scoring TDs not FGs. If we stay close and eat clock I'll be real happy.
Go Browns!!!

Delpit was IR and Greedy we knew it was gonna be a big part of the season.
This year they are healthy dealing with some dings and such but they are counted on as we GO INTO THE SEASON. Not the way we depended on them last year !
Your statement makes no sense to me.

The Chiefs offense is experienced, running Andy Reids offense for several years and the Chiefs defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo in his 3rd season.

The Browns offense is not going to be a surprise to the Chiefs after facing the Browns in the playoffs last season. The only "unknown" will be the Browns defense with all the changes on that side of the ball.

The Browns defense will be in good position to surprise a few teams, especially early in the season.

Tampa showed how to beat KC. It is not a mystery anymore. Now doing it is another story.

Terrance Mitchell has mostly been a career backup corner.

Geez, am I going to have to put you back on iggy?

We are going to be just fine FFS!

I don't think KC "knows the Browns offense". Last year was year one of Stefanski installing his offense. If preseason is any indication we'll see much more variety in the plays than we saw last year. He dialed up a lot of things in preseason I never saw last season.

Defense still wins championships

After your offense gets you there

And then After your offense exposes the other teams defense by beating them

Then Defense can win championships.

Don't be indecisive.
I won't embrace a bad situation that is recognizeably so.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "Balance" generally wins championships.

YOu can't have an offense that doesn't score points and expect to win in this league. It's not sustainable.

You also can't have a defense that can't stop anyone either and expect to win either.

I can't disagree that a 'balance' that ranks an offense and defense near the top of the league would put a franchise in the best position to win a Super Bowl.





The Browns have experienced both a deficient offense and/or a deficient defense over the past 20 years.

The offense should perform better in year two of the SKI O and if the judgement of management is correct, (hopefully) the defensive players brought in and those drafted will live up to the hype.

j/c

The Browns offense is ready to win a championship now. The question mark is the defense ready?

If the defense performs at a top 15 level in three categories we get the whole enchilada.

Points allowed
Turnovers
3rd down stops

I agree quard.

But I will say my personal expectations for this defense is higher.

The defense is way faster than it was last year.

Last year the overall defensive ranking was 17th.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/05/21/cleveland-browns-named-3rd-best-defense-recent-ranking/

IMO we will at least top ten.

been saying last several years that D and running game are dead as all the experts have been saying. I've been saying BS!!!
All teams are looking to bolster their D and run game. Necessary to have.
We will be proof of that. Chiefs lost the SB due to a lack of D and they will lose against us also due to a lack in D.

Precisely tab

I think QB quality has a large say, but defense is definitely an underrated part of the winning formula. I looked at ranks (by points allowed) for the last 10 SB champs, and they've all been top 10, save 2. Strangely enough, those 2 were among the weakest QBs to win it (Flacco - 12th), and Eli (25th).

So I guess the key to these next 2 seasons may be whether we can field a top10 D.

Or . . .

A) Get yourself off the field;

B) Do not break!; and,

C)Change the game with takeaways. Want to add for this year, have a scoring defense for a change. The talent we have to attack with pass rush and force some interceptions, strip sacks, and forced fumbles ought to put up points. The best offense will have its off day or so. Then it is all on the defense. We can be about fifth or sixth if we work hard and stay healthy.

Really want to see our defense force their will on a game as opposed to seeing the offense need to carry them. Go, Browns!

I think as long as the offense doesn't take any massive steps back, the defense needs to simply NOT LOSE games. They really only need to play complimentary football. IMO, I think that comes in a bend-don't-break style of play in the beginning of games. If the O can put up early points while the D chips in with some big plays (sacks/stops leading to punts) or even takeaways, then that sets this D up to really cut loose and have some fun in second halves when opposition begins to get 1-dimensional.

I think we're building more of an opportunistic D vs a complete shutdown D because of the makeup of our Dline (some strong pieces, but not game-breaking-dominant), our LB corps (serviceable).

You make some great points here, with a but?

Joe has said it and when you stand back and think for a moment the NFL and the rules they have instituted point to huge numbers for offenses. Throwing the ball and going after chuck plays.

That said the defenses are IMO left with 2 modes of operation. Pressure a QB as much as humanly possible and take chances on the backend to create turnovers. Make the offense grind out the points they do get and hold your breath as the game moves along hoping you get that big play turnover while taking chances, that is why I believe the emphasis is on versatility and speed?

OOBER,
Maybe you're right. I'm just pointing out facts that 8/10 most recent SB winners had top10 defenses in points allowed. Lots of things go into that in addition to defensive play though...competition quality, pressure put on opponents when your offense is very good (and you play from ahead a lot), etc.

jc...

Have the Browns found the defensive players who will rise to those critical moments in a game that ensures a Browns win?

Been a whole bunch of hype about the Browns defense but not much evidence that they will live up to expectations.

It is "show me time"...

Of course it's hard to win a chip if you can't stop anybody but I doubt we will ever see a defense like the great "oldschool" ones that gave up 12 ppg.. too many rule changes to aid the offense for that to happen again.

If you can average giving up 20 ppg now, that is stellar defense. And you still need to be able to outscore the teams that get into the 30s on you... it's going to happen.

I am excited to watch this guy play in real games.

DC I had this conversation with someone today, about the reality of todays NFL.

I know you'll still see defenses that hand their opponent their butt from time to time, but in todays NFL and with some of the QB's we see coming out of college I just don't see how you shut these teams down.

I think the Browns defense we have assembled now as we speak is a great example of what I expect will see more and more of in the near future. You simply can't shut down a well executed offense what you can do though is hurry that offense with quick pressure and with speed and more speed on the backend. That means to a degree that you are almost giving up on stopping the run and counting on your offense to pressure the opponent to have to throw the ball.

Listen to Joe Woods what I am saying he has said in a way. Our defense is focused on speed and the passing game. Oddly though it gives them the kind of team speed they need to deal with Jackson, when I just did say they sorta have given up on stopping the run. His days of running loose thru our backend are coming to a close he will have to be a passer and that doesn't hold out much chance for him either.

But you made a great point DC, what you said is absolutely true and our defense is the adjustment to the rules and to the offenses we see today.

Within that context.

We were built to beat teams like Baltimore and the Chiefs.

Berry has added speed to the secondary and linebackers.

And he prioritized the pass rush.

Myles was here. He went after Clowney and Takk like there was no tomorrow.

Defense is now based upon speed guys in space and speed rushers to apply pressure.
===================================================


The brilliance of our offense is based upon the offensive line. Provide protection for the quarterback.

Where we struck gold was Nick Chubb. He is a incredible runner. And as a teammate he brings an attitude of work.

Hunt was a stroke of luck. He was available and we got him.
He is the closet thing to "beast mode" in the game today.

Those two guys in combination along with the OL provides all the balance we need. It sets up play action and the pass game.

Of all the teams right now. We have the formula to beat teams like the Ravens and the Chiefs.

That is no quarantee. But we are built to beat them.
===================================================

When the season ended. As Berry pondered the upcoming year. He had to look at the landscape. He had a playoff team. How can we beat the best teams in the AFC?

He developed a plan. Then implemented the plan.

Here we are today.

Come Sunday. We will find out if the plan works.

As you know Bone you and I see things identically.

I look at the NFL landscape and I think at this point and I have pondered long and hard on this that anything less then the Lombardi for this team this season will be a let down.

With a defense that was really not very good last year to what we will put on the field come Sunday is a lot to try to project.

That said this team was in the PO last season with a not so good defense by any measure aside from Garret and Ward that is.

You don't have to be a X and O guy to realize that the Browns are truly elite on Offense I mean that is real simple they made the PO last year that speaks for itself, and it is also pretty clear that the reason we did that was because of Baker and Nick. Balance

So fast forward to now this defense underwent a radical transformation this off season we added speed and veteran leadership at all but one level.

There is no way that we don't see improvement, and there is no way heading into every game we play that we don't have a better then even chance of coming out with the W. When I look at this schedule I can honestly say that we probably should win every game we play, and yes I include the Chiefs game we are about to play.

We are in for a ride this season, and more then ever I believe it will end with the Lombardi.

I think the ONLY thing that has stopped the talking heads and a great deal of our own fan base going nuts over this team is they are the Browns, anyone else and we are the team to beat in the SB.

This a great example for the point I'm trying to make...

...is the 40 time of our DBs more impressive to our fans than a Browns DB who makes a game winning tackle?

I believe in doing what ever it takes for the Browns to win the game.

That 40 time is not an advantage if the Browns defense can't make that game winning tackle.

I don't disagree with you at all, but another poster took this same tweet and put up the 40 times of the DBs that didn't come back from last year. It's a stark difference, and I think that is the key takeaway.

BTTB,

Be prepared for disappointment, then. Or put another way, I hope you don't gamble. Even the most elite teams in the league in a given year have maybe a 15-20% chance to win the SB. There are too many variables. And as much as you may want to will it into existence, we have not yet proven to be an elite team.

Our offense in 2020 was above average. We finished 14th in points scored in the regular season. But we were way better in the 2nd half when Baker took off, right? Nope. We scored 33.3 points/game in the first 6 contests, and 20.8/game over the last 10. But the bad weather games, and the Jets/Covid game, right? Kind of. Excluding those, we scored 29 pts/game. Outside the top 5 offenses. We were a good offense, but not a great one. Can we be this year? Yeah, sure. But you talk about this like its a done deal.

Defensively, we are an even bigger question. There is the fact that they haven't played a down together yet. We also have 3 elite talents in starting positions which have not been able to stay on the field (Clowney, Ward, Delpit). We have 4 "rookies" which we are counting on to be major contributors (McDowell, JOK, Newsome, Delpit). None of these facts says we will have an elite defense. Certainly not in the first half of the year. The time for fantasizing is over. Now its time for them to actually show us.

Those numbers make for a compelling argument. Thank you for sharing that.

That said, I don't think it's unreasonable for the end of the last year to be used as the floor for expectations this year (for the offense). Returning all the key cogs and getting OBJ back... all with a second (and far more effective) off-season for getting everyone on the same page... there's no reason to set expectations above the best that we saw last year.

I agree, we should be looking at a floor of 29 ppg moving forward, barring injury. Says nothing about the D, though. Top 10 would be about 22.5 ppg or less. Last year we gave up 26.1. Are we 4 points better this year? On paper, 100% yes. On paper.

And I noticed you ignored my main point here.

That being under the very worst of circumstances this defense will be better then last years version.

Compound that with the fact that this offense carried this team to the PO last year without a lot of help from that defense, a rise to say number 10 on defense and I will take our chances of getting to the big game. All realistically within our reach.

Of course there are countless things that can happen on the way to the dance. Some Browns fans (you) need a good dose of anti battered Browns Syndrome vaccine.

If you want to look for the down side of things, it's easy to find.

Put a few on ice, make a big bowl of popcorn on to pop, we won't decide the outcome here today or any day....................

This is from Terry Pluto and wonder if you were one of these gentlemen and I think Terry speaks well for me.

Hey Terry: I’m so excited about this team, but I’m also afraid to get my heart broken again. I’ve been a fan for 60 years. Can you help me get rid of that fear? – Gay Snyder, Big Prairie, Ohio

Hey Terry: I’ve been a fan for 50 years and haven’t seen this much hype since the days of Marty Schottenheimer and Bernie Kosar. I’ve been excited before and been let down many times. Why does this feel different? – Bob Toth, Rossford, Ohio.


Hey Gay & Bob: There are different versions of football “heartbreak.” The Browns going 3-13, 1-15, 0-16 (2015-17) are teams with no heartbeat. The 2019 team (6-10 record), is an example of a team with a much bigger head (and ego) than heart.

I assume you are talking about the Browns of the late 1980s, The Drive and The Fumble. But those teams played with a lot heart. They represented the city well. They were fun to watch. They made Sunday afternoons special. They did everything except go to a Super Bowl.

For a while, I’ve been saying the Browns now remind me of the Browns in the late 1980s. They have a front office/coach/QB combination in place. In the 1980s, it was Ernie Accorsi/Schottenheimer/Kosar. Now, it’s Paul DePodesta and Andrew Berry/Kevin Stefanski/Baker Mayfield.

I’d rather take a chance on some heartbreak and have teams like the 1980s compared to what we watched after that. Take it one game at time, savor the wins...and remember 1-15 and 0-16 wasn’t that long ago.

****************************************************

I will take the heartbreak too, who won't?

I have waited long enough no sticking my toe in the water I am in all the way, it's the only way to be if your a fan, and that is me this year.

I dare to let my hopes and dreams guide me this season because just like Terry said the alternative sucks, so why NOT.

I am 62 and in poor health I have a dream of seeing my Browns win it all before I hit the exit, and I think we have the best chance I have ever seen us have so now is NOT a time to be worried about embarrassing myself because I dared believe.

You stick with your stats I will trust my eyes and yes my heart.

Wow.

I just read the article that was posted about Berry and his rise to GM.

I surprised myself. According to the article what I just wrote is pretty much on the mark.

Damn. Berry's philosophy is quarterback driven first then the OL.

The DL based upon pressure.

The article is well written and very interesting.

We are fotunate to have Berry as our GM.

I understand. And yes, given that we all know the train could go off the rails at any moment, we should be enjoying the ride while it is still good.

But having cautious optimism isn't a sign of Battered Browns Fan Syndrome. I think we'll be a top 10 team in the league this year, that we have a good shot to be in the AFCC, and are seemingly set up to compete for years...to "represent the city well" as Pluto put it. I am excited about all of that, and I'm all about gameday positivity. But the offseason and non-gamedays are for more level-headed analysis, IMO. To sit here on September 9th and say <SB win will be a big let down is just an emotional view that doesn't suit me. I'm glad it suits you...although I still advise against gambling with that level of emotion.

Sunday cannot come soon enough! (although I hate the 4pm start).

Get vaccinated. Overly cautious behavior is a dead give away it's where the sufferers of the syndrome run and hide.

This is as good a team as we have ever had in my lifetime.

The time for displaying the syndrome is over it's time to be a fan.

This sort of ride seldom shows up don't spend it being cautiously optimistic.

The fun is the struggle the disappointment and in the end the victory that seals the deal I welcome it all.

Now is our time can the stats the worst case scenario and replace it with enthusiasm and look for why it will work, not why it won't.

Another sign of the syndrome, BTW.

In the end we can spend our time reliving past failures or we can enjoy the moment and the fun that comes with it.

I don't think slamming people exhibiting symptoms of BBFS is very productive. These are generally the people that were hit hard by past disappointments/failures. They were there during the low times and didn't cut bait. Cautious optimism from someone that's been religiously watching this team since the return doesn't deserve "you need to be a fan".

Agreed. I've been a Browns fan since 1967 so I've seen and been through all of it. I waited 50 years to see my hockey team ( ST. Louis Blues) finally win a Stanley Cup. I've waited Longer for my Browns. They're my last team that hasn't won a championship. I hope the drought ends soon.

People who always look for why it can't be done are kill joys, and worse yet they remind me of my wife........bla

Brown I feel it can be done this year. We do have the talent and I feel we can play with anybody. If we stay relatively healthy we can go a long way.

That's just sad. I know we have a lot of "Think the way I do or something's wrong with you" in politics these days, but I never thought I would see it bleed over into our football fan base. Boy was I wrong about that.

Yeah, I get it (except for the part about your wife). Not trying to get on your case, just pointing out that the majority of people who are being cautious are the ones that have been burned in the past in getting their hopes up, and they stuck with the team even in the bad years.

Now there's a difference between people who are cautiously optimistic or keeping their excitement in check and the people that are perpetually wet blankets/downers. If you're talking about the latter, then go ahead and slam away. IMO, there's a difference, though.

I know I'm trying (and failing) to keep my enthusiasm in check at least until the games start. The amount of love we're getting right now (major talking head talking about us winning the SB), is setting off alarms in my head.

It's funny, I find the polyanna attitude of "we are the best thing to grace the football field and are going to dominate everyone and definitely win the SB" to be...well...I'll refrain from the word I want to use.

That said, my personal attitude has absolutely 0 to do with the Browns. That's who I am. It just so happens that I don't get depressed by examining the gray areas/downsides/risks/etc. in life. Others do, hence I've been called a downer/eeyore/etc. before, so have at it. As far as I'm concerned, if you are somehow emotionally bothered by considering negatives alongside positives, that's a you problem.

If you knew my wife you would understand, trust me she doesn't know how to enjoy much always looking for the other shoe to come down and ruins what should be fun, drives me nuts.

Whatever you have been thru so have I. Do some reading about successful people they failed over and over and never let it stop them they learned got better and kept their heads down and worked.

After decades of keeping my head down and never giving up or in it's payoff time.

Not going to let the past stop me from enjoying every moment, going to walk with my head high and letting the world know I was there when they weren't so good now is my time, watch me dance.

We deserve everything we are about to receive, I intend to enjoy it just being a fan, let Ski and the team work out the details my job is to be a great fan and enjoy the fruits of the many many years I supported this team without much return.

Now is our time enjoy it and the hell with the past, our time is now.

You pout and lament away, not me no thanks for that, I have moved on. Stay where you are if it makes you feel comfortable.

I also know that not every moment will be filled with joy it wouldn't be any fun if it were easy it won't sway me a bit I expect it.

This should really send you into a tizzy I think we will be the next great dynasty................

And if it don't work out then I will be back next year expecting the exact same results. Gone are the days I have to scream about how poorly this team is run I get to be exactly what I was before the Browns turned into a train wreck a fan, the best in the sporting world I would add. I gotta have some dawg bones and some batteries here somewhere............hahaha

See, here's where you go off the rails. I haven't seen anyone doing either of these. Trying to be objective is not "pouting or lamenting". You act as though anyone who tries to break down the possibility that your dream may not turn out to be a reality is some kind of Debbie Downer. That's just not true.

And let me tell you something about successful people. Sure they "believe they can do it". But let me tell you what else they do. They weigh their risks, explore their options and consider everything that can go wrong to stand in their way.

They don't live in some fairyland dream world where they act like nothing can go wrong.

Be whatever you feel comfortable with, but the Browns won't be calling you or me for advise so don't worry yourself so.

Me I am going to dance dance dance.

So anyone with a different view than your own are "pouting and lamenting"?

Be careful not to break a leg. Dancing blindly can help facilitate that.

Just make the play, that's what fans care about.

And in general, speed is better than lack of speed when it comes to making plays or being in position to make plays.

Do you mean to tell me not being fast enough to keep up with opposing WR's may leave you in a position where you can't cover them and may not be in a position to make the play?

You should do whatever makes you happy I do.

I respect your absolute right to sweat the details have had it I won't be signing up with you anytime soon though I want to be the fan I remember from the late 70's and early eighties that would see the Browns having a rough afternoon and collectively rise from their seats and begin to raise hell and urge the team to win.

Now that is why I was always proud to be a Browns fan, I always thought that is what a fan should be and so I have returned to my rightful place.

I am all in and I will urge the team on from here forward in the hopes that it helps them win.

It worked then I believe it will work now.

I assume my old number 12, and the position I proudly had up until the past few decades went by. Out with the new in with the old.

The poster who has often responded to other's differing posts/opinion with "Wah" to illustrate pouting and lamenting, is now making this argument?

Oh, the irony.

jc...




link

John Johnson III says Browns D needs to 'beat the best' to be 'one of the best'Johnson believes the Browns are facing the perfect Week 1 testSep 09, 2021 at 04:26 PM

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vMrnC5ZhWI [/video]

John Johnson III believes the rejuvenated Browns defense is going against the perfect Week 1 opponent.With Myles Garrett, Jadeveon Clowney, Denzel Ward and Johnson, among others, the Browns are seeking to establish themselves as one of the best defenses in the AFC.With Patrick Mahomes, Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce and Clyde Edwards-Helaire, the Chiefs — back-to-back winners of the AFC and the first opponent the Browns will face in 2021 — have already established themselves as one of the best offenses in the NFL.Johnson has been eager to see just how strong the new defense truly is since he signed as a free agent with the Browns in March. He didn't need five weeks of training camp to know the group holds talent, but only the regular season can reveal the true strength of the group.They'll receive a big answer Sunday at Arrowhead Stadium.

Pot meet kettle. You've done little but try to celebrate a man who can't even get a job in the NFL while attacking the guy that brought us Baker and Chubb.

Then throw a tantrum every time someone calls you on it.

I'll defer to the intelligence and reason of the board (crossing fingers) that this has nothing to do with what has been said.

I thought you said you stopped drinking???

It's obvious to see you haven't.

This is the type comment I expect to hear from those free agents who signed a contract to play for the Browns...

...to be the best, you have to beat the best...

Hopefully the Browns can live up to the expectations and standards they set for themselves.

Dak was impressive against the Cowboys...but it's the same old Dallas D. Cowboys are 0-1.

dna...QB is #1 I have said that all along. You don't need rhe best QB but if not elite then you better have the elite D and running game. Ravens are in that mode don't care what anybody says he is far from being an elite QB he however is an elite running threat and they need that elite D...losing Marcus Peters is big time for them...Edward's RB honestly average at best, Kelly who we cut can be just as good for the Ravens. But they are near average in D if you ask me. Lamar's air game cannot carry them and OL I don't think is dominant.
Jmho

Except even I can out run him now.

That injury has really slowed him down.

See SB run. Run SB, run....

I feel bad for the Raven's, oh well I am over it. I wouldn't take them lightly for sure but I think we were in a position to take them out back and give them a good ass whipping anyway. If anyone is silly enough to think that LJ is going to carry that team with his arm they are out of their minds.

We will own them this year and next and so on.

That said KC you get to go 1st.

Not for nothing but do we know "He Who Shall Not be Named" (Praise be to Sashi) wants to work in the NFL? Last we heard he was consulting for what? 3 NBA teams? If nothing else, how many teams have we seen over the last couple of seasons doing a Sashi (praise behis name) style teardown?

I'd say he's been vindicated.

Am I the only one who's at least a little concerned that we may not have enough weight on the back end of the DEF to handle the run game on a consistent basis?

Not in the NFL he hasn't. And he's certainly not a GM or anything close to that anywhere.

Devil I believe the theory is to get more players to the ball more quickly in this defense, that should negate any lost weight or muscle at the ball when the tackle is made.

I thought this too, but it makes perfect sense team speed means more bodies at the ball.

Joe has said he doesn't feel like defending the run game is nearly as important as it is to be sound in stopping the passing game with an emphasis on creating turnovers.

I feel certain this has been thought thru real well. It's why we have a player like Billings on the team, a big huge man that you simply can't move in the middle.

But I hear you and I certainly don't dismiss your thoughts, and though I think this has been allowed for.

At the end of the day we are going to find out exactly what Joe has in mind. Let's tee it up and get it on!

The way teams play is different.

Coach Reid is a perfect example. Speed and motion is used to make a defense guard the whole field. TE's are more atheltic and dangerous in the pass game. Runners are more versitile and used more in the pass game. There are more quarterbacks who are mobile and are a run threat.

Devin White, Micah Parsons, JOK these dudes can fly.

Linebackers have to cover to play three downs.

Woods is basing his scheme on players who can play in space. Nickle and dime packages that will feature extra corners and safety's.

On certain down and distance situations they can load the box or rotate in run stoppers in the interior.

So, that puts the burden on the GM to find the right guys.

Although I expect our defense to play at a different level come Thanksgiving. We will be fine until then.

This KC game will be a early test to see where we are.

I hope he does that to Mahomeys tomorrow.

No worries Mac
Having Delpit, Johnson and Williams will pay multiplying dividends

Deion Sanders is in the HoF because he seldom let his guy catch the ball... therefore tackling wasn't so important.

jc..

Yes, defense does win championships!...ask KC.

Browns vs KC...The Browns defense comes up with the "same old performance" when the game is on the line...

Just another great example of why the Browns won't be winning any Championships if something doesn't change, starting with defensive coaches who are capable of teaching the basics of defense.

Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more

He got there at the end when it mattered.

D did their job yesterday, the O failed us.

#PutHigginsIn

The Browns defense...
Mahomes completed 75% of his passes for 337 yards, 3 TDs, and a 131.4 QB rating.
Tyreek Hill had 197 yards receiving.
Chiefs converted 69.2% of their 3rd downs
Had 1 sack
Forced 0 turnovers
Forced 0 3 and outs
Gave the offense avg. starting field position of the Browns 18

Funny I'm comparing your line of thinking with the "Defense wins championships" thread... These numbers don't win championships. I'm also not that upset at the defense, overall I think they played ok, the Chiefs have an elite offense

Most people have talked about the mistakes the Browns made.. but if you break it down by unit..

Offense:
Chubb fumble
Baker INT

Defense:
Starting safety getting himself ejected
Johnson getting turned around and giving up a 75 yard hail mary-esque TD right after we had scored to regain some momentum

Special Teams:
Botch punt snap giving them a 15 yard field.

I'm sure in some minds, Baker's mistake was last so it's the only one that really matters.. I don't think that way.

It's those 2 zero's that really stood out for me. Defense wasn't going to smother their offense, just had to give the ball back to Mayfield a couple times.

As I just posted in another thread, our avg. starting field position was our own 18 (and our best was our own 25) because our defense never made a play to get us any kind of field position. It's hard to keep pace in this league if you have to go 75-80 yards every single drive to score.

and, yet, we set the pace for much of the game despite this.

We didn't force 3-n-outs, but we held them to a couple of FG's while we scored TD's.
We were cruising, then we got busted in the chops (and shot our own feet) and we never stopped reeling from that. Simple as that.

This brings up a different point that I have been contemplating... last year a few times, specifically the Dallas and Titans games.. we blew them out, until we took our foot off the gas.. then once they started to come back, we couldn't get started again, fortunately we limped home and held them off to win...

There have also been other games like yesterday where we were cruising along until something really bad happens, and we fail to recover..

We seem to play great with momentum but when momentum swings against us, we seem to have a real hard time getting it back.... I thought we did it yesterday with that last TD drive.. 9 seconds later the Chiefs had countered that score. That's how you get momentum back...

MAC,

You cannot say that about yesterday. Holding KC to 33 points in their home opener, and giving your offense the ball with 3 minutes to win the game, you cannot ask for much more than that. You'd take it in the SB, and you take it here.

DC,

We should've had a TD in the 3rd quarter I believe it was, on a similar momentum play. Deep shot that looked like a bad overthrow at first, but turned out to be Schwartz adding an unnecessary double move.

With 9 new starters I'm willing to give the D a break for not throttling Mahomey and co. Tell me WHO has kept Kelce and Hill in check...and the depleted o line in last year's Super Bowl made it an outlier imho.

That said, starting off with KC could be viewed as the best thing that happened to our D. We now KNOW what our deficiencies are. And as this D gels it's very clear what needs to be cleaned up. Woods' schemes are a different matter, but I'd be shocked if they don't upgrade along with the development of the players' chemistry.

Did LeCount play?

Giving up a long pass play to 2 Hall of Famers, one of which threw a pass that no other QB in the NFL can throw, isn't a failure imo. It's to be expected that your safety will get beat by Tyreek at least once in a game.

The way our O went to sleep in the 3rd quarter, followed by turnovers, and then failing in clutch time is why we lost. The D was very very good (not great, but just under great) in the first half.

They got worn down and tired in the 2nd half cuz the O stopped doing anything, and yet still managed to hold KC to a field goal on the midfield Chubb fumble turnover.

While I don't think the last INT was the biggest reason for the loss, GREAT offenses win when they get the ball last. We're not there yet, but hopefully soon

Also, not to be forgotten is that he was still battling the turf toe he got in the game against us, so he wasn't moving as well as normal, either. He wasn't the same Mahomes in the SB.

jc...

The Browns defensive scheme against the pass "sucked"..allowing Chiefs receivers a 5 yard cushion and a free release off of the line of scrimmage before the Browns defensive backs and LBs began to cover.

The Browns DBs did show man coverage at the LOS in the 2nd half but back peddled at the snap allowing Chiefs receivers freedom to run their routes.

Not sure what Joe Woods calls that pass defense but it sure allowed Chiefs easy first down conversions and touchdowns.

Try comparing the Chiefs pass defense vs Woods D. to see the difference in the Chiefs Defensive scheme vs the Browns pass defense in this game.

Coaching does make a difference between NFL teams that win Championships and those that are just happy to win some games.

Sometimes we blame the players when they are simply doing what they are trained to do by their coaching staff.

Time will tell, but my feeling is the gameplan for this game was to give them underneath stuff to keep the clock moving as much as possible and eliminate quick strike chunks.

Just like you want to control clock when on O to use up clock, you can try to do that on D as well.

The Browns should have subscribed
To Belicheks theroy and took
Away Kelce and Hill and let
Somebody beat them.
If Ward cant cover Hill then he doesnt
Deserve that new contract

Yeah, the KC pass D was so good they made Baker look terrible.

Soooo..... they gave up a total of 16 yards less on 6 fewer completions while forcing 2 less incompletions that us.

I don't think it means what you think it means.
oh, and we were torching them with the long ball... something that, with one lone exception, they didn't do to us. Had we not taken away the deep ball like we did, the combination of Mahomes-Hill-Kelce likely would have torched us more, the way they do most teams.

Looks like the Browns idea of faster LB and DB didn't work out so well against the Chiefs. Allowing Mahomes-Hill-Kelce to "beat us" wasn't such a great idea, was it?

Management went out and hired all this defensive talent, then acted as if they were not willing to use that speed to cover the Chiefs receivers.

It simply looked as the Browns defensive coaches were trying employ some sort of crazy "prevent" defense behind our DLine hoping the Browns rush would get to Mahomes. The Browns ability to blitz, was poor and I'm not blaming the LBs or DBs but the poor design of those blitz attempts.

As a Browns fan, I not such a good "homer" as a Browns fan because I refuse to overlook poor play or poor coaching. In this case, I can't help but to question why the Browwns coaching staff made it easier for Andy Reid and Mahomes to pick the Browns defense apart.

The Browns have a lot of work to do..the coaching stall included.

I agree with this take, and I think it is a solid insight into The Game as it is played. Playing to win is different than playing not to lose. We did both in the second half, with a breakdown in a glorified prevent D and it was too much for us to recover from with our three major issues icing our collapse: the fumble, the bobble, the TD, the pick.

The loss sucked eggs. No Valhalla for us. This stung. We need to avoid this in the future.

And last Sunday.

Our defense looks soft.

Somebody needs to light a fire under their a$$es!!!!!!!!!!

+1. (Clapping hands emoji.)
^post of the regular seasons year.

Now. It's not true, but, It FEELS GOOD TO SAY IT!
yeah, feels good to say it.

now, I don't want to read bad words on dtmb. (but I want to write bad words on dtmb.) I could argure with myself both sides, I really don't want to read em,!!! but it would feel relief to write em. (Just to get the anger out) Now, don't really want it, but in a fairy tale world what if I were allowed 13, bad words per year? hmm.
I'd have to save some for the Ravens game. I'd have to save some for the day they get mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, , I'd have to save some for draft days, I'm left with about 0.7 bad words, and they didn't even trade away players yet.
and

It's less personal to say defensive scheme. than to say, This is the same Qb who fumbled on 4th and 1 and Kareem Hunt had to make a tackle on the 3 yard line, and apart from that, has shown a proclivity to make these same heaves, when being dragged down from behind.

Except the Front 4 of course.

Maybe, if it weren't a prevent in disguise. A prevent by any other name is still a prevent. There is just no way to play defense in the NFL.

Look at the Raiders, they have 0 safeties back, rushed about 9, and when the ball got thrown, the Db tackled the WR like a tackling dummy. But it took them at least one more play to get the touchdown.

I'd like to see one of the more accomplished film reviewers on YouTube or TwitFace do a breakdown with All-22 of just what went wrong on that 75-yarder.

I'm gonna bet it wasn't scheme or call, and I'm betting that it was either someone blowing their assignment because things are new, OR it was because of the personnel we had out there? i.e. Was someone out getting an I.V. and they just caught us with our pants down?

Great Video from G. Bush on how our defense can improve:

I think the D scheme on this first game was to keep everything in front of them and to not let Mahomes hurt us with his legs. Force them to take the underneath stuff, run the clock, prevent the BIG plays, and do your best to pressure Mahomes and disrupt his 2 second release rate any way you can... It worked in the first half, but you can't overcome the turnovers and dumb mistakes against a team that just doesn't make many mistakes. At least our team looked solid all around and Baker looked light years ahead of Lamar and Allen Sunday; he was just short of Mahomes level good in the results IMHO and better in the stats.

If you are talking about the one play drive for a touchdown. You don't need to see 22, just the instant replay,
the Wr and one defender were running neck and neck,
the chiefs player stopped.
just stopped! on a dime, just stopped, and the Browns player kept running, and that created separation, a ton of it, right in the middle of the field.
And that kind of thing happens, probably opponents practice it.

On Chubbs touchdown, half the field appeared to be unmanned by the chiefs defense.

You do realize that if you don't lose you win, right?

Not true. You can tie.

Yes. Half a win. Prevent defenses have lost us leads and games, and taking your foot off the gas has hurt us as well. Nothing to win by correcting me, we have seen it repeatedly.

We were not as aggressive or effective in the second half. We didn't look as hungry; pretty sure of the outcome when we appeared to back off. You can overreach admittedly. I still stand by my originnal post. But there is room for latitude.

I think who your opponent is has a lot do with your strategy in this department. There were games last year where we played what people would call at least a form of prevent defense. We would gain a big lead and then play it safe on both O and D. We won in those games. Yet still a lot of people complained that we didn't win by more points. Which I think is a silly concept.

But I don't think we should attempt something like that against a team like the Chiefs. They can and do score points in bunches with a quickness. No lead is safe if you take your foot off of the gas.

Our D held them to 10 points in the first half. So no matter what anyone says it's not like our D just stunk things up all day as some seem to try and indicate. (Not trying to say you are doing that.)

So I think whether you use a prevent depends on the score and your opponent. In the case of the Chiefs, no score is safe and your opponent can light up the scoreboard at any time.

So in this game against this team I agree with you. However, depending on the opponent I may not.

All in all I think it was the turnovers which were the deciding factor far more than anything else. You just can't keep handing Mahomes the ball like that and expect to win.

In hindsight it was a bad pass: short and behind the receiver, but Hill made it a positive.

As for Chubb's run, that was just an unbelievable play. I don't think I've ever seen a defense so totally out of position.

Today it was announced that McDowell is the starter.

That is amazing. I have not heard a story like his before.

Out of football four years. Never played a NFL game.

And this guy becomes the starter on this team. That is something.

In regards to defense in Sunday's game.

Malcolm Smith trying to cover Kelce??

No can do.

I am surprised that Woods did not put JOK in man against Kelce.

I need to watch the game again. I really watch how we tried to defend Kelce.

I remember a couple plays where Smith was playing off man coverage. No contest.

JOK got beat a couple of times by Kelce in the first half alone.

I agree with all that. We got snakebite again where several bad events snowballed beyond our control.

We are not on different pages. Too cautious too soon is still a wager.

And yet it didn't feel we did that bad...was shocked at the bad stats you just ran off.

It was obvious that the difference was the Turnovers especially the first two...Bakers was least effective as it didn't give them a score just a Crappy way to end a game as we had 4 downs to move the chains and make a last second score to win the game...just was deprived of that. Other two turnovers hurt more as in momentum changes

jmho

Just heard that Patrick Mahomes named AFC offensive player of the week...

The Browns defensive coordinator should get some of the credit for Mahones award for employing his "no contact" defense, allowing Mahones best receivers free release off of the line of scrimmage.

When your opponents QB earns offensive player of the week honors, THAT IS NOT an indication of how well the Browns pass defense played or that the defensive scheme employed by the Browns DC was a "success".

Woods and whomever is responsible for our defense deserve to be called out!

Badly, one replay JOK was on kelce and kelce ran at him and cut inside quick as a receiver, JOK just stood there flat footed..It was a welcome to the nfl moment for him for sure..TE's are better than most receivers he played against in college. That being said, I still think our LB core is close to if not the worst in the NFL, huge oversight by berry, but I can see that he was probably counting on his line and secondary to pick up alot of slack. They just didn't against KC. But we def. need at least one above average LB, I think we will see it more against teams that can run or have decent Te's. I think the Dline will get better once they get into game shape. Not playing at all during preseason really makes it hard to get used to timing and endurance. The secondary issue will be more about who's supposed to be where and help who in zone. That will come too. We have talent in both those units, we just don't have any talent at LB. This is where a good DC earns his money and masks that weakness. I still think Woods scheme is decent part of our problem

MAC,

I mean, the Chiefs scored under 30 like 1/3 of their games last year, and we were installing like 6 new starters (7 once Ronnie went out), plus new rotational guys. The D handed the offense the ball with a chance to win at the end.

I would've taken low 30s and the ball to win before the game started. Wouldn't you?

I heard Mary K go into a similar comment or excuse on a broadcast.

The excuse of new faces doesn't sit well. Eventually, the product is the product. The team chose the new faces.
What is ready is ready and plays. What is not, does not!

LeCharles Bentley was not a better Cleveland Brown than Mitchell Schwartz, because he never got the opportunity. iirc.
Eventually! What is out there, is out there.
And if they need more time, if they are an unfinished product, if they are a half done casserole in the oven that needs more time to cook; the team must own that.

It is what plays on Gameday! Not what's on the way!
It is what plays on Gameday! Not what's on the way!

Browns: Joe Woods isn’t on the hot seat, yet

by Chad Porto2 days ago
link

Joe Woods has been getting heat from fans as of late.
One of two things is true; either Joe Woods’ system is not compatible for the NFL or the players he has are not as good as advertised. What this means is if the Browns’ defense continues to be exploited as the Chiefs did in the season opener, either Woods or Andrew Berry won’t be here much longer. The team spent too much money on this defense and drafted too many prospects for this to be a recurring thing.

That doesn’t mean that Woods’ is on the hot seat currently. It’s far too early in the season for that. It doesn’t mean, however, that it isn’t on the table at all. If the Browns continue to struggle against the defense as they did on Sunday against the Chiefs, moves will have to be made.

This team is far too loaded with too much expensive talent to just keep letting this stuff happen. With teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Arizona on the radar still, Cleveland can’t afford to get batted around anymore.

Joe Woods still has the chance to prove his defense can work
The Browns fell apart defensively on Sunday, there’s no other way to describe it. While the team needs to be able to beat the Chiefs and stop them defensively, it isn’t the worst thing that could happen.

Patrick Mahomes may very well be the best quarterback in the NFL right now, regardless of his weapons. Teams are going to struggle against him if they aren’t able to get pressure, which the Browns didn’t ever really get.


Is that on Woods or on Myles Garrett and Jadeveon Clowney? Remember, Clowney is coming off of a few bad seasons. He’s never been a big-time pass-rush guy, to begin with, and he played most of his prime next to J.J. Watt, the best defensive player of their generation.

Clearly, Woods isn’t the only issue.

For those who will go to the “…IT’S ONLY WEEK 1!”, it’s not.

We are now well over 52 weeks of Woods on the Browns. The issues that plagued the team on Sunday were there in the heartbreaking loss to the Ravens, they were there in the first game against the Steelers, and they were there in the playoff match against the Chiefs. These issues have been present for quite some time now.

Soft defenses, no blitzing, a lack of containment on mobile quarterbacks. It’s not new. It’s a prevent defense and the only thing those types of defenses do for you is prevent you from winning.

The team has a lot of big games where that defense will have a chance to shine, so Woods still has a chance to prove he’s worth keeping around. With the Lions, Raiders, Packers, and Patriots on the schedule, the Browns should be able to fully flex their defensive might. If they can’t and some of these bottom-feeding teams end up spanking the Browns defensively, then that’s when it’s going to be time to let Woods go.

Houston’s up, and despite what they looked like in Week 1, there’s no reason to suspect they can do that again against a good defense. So if the Texans hang big numbers on Cleveland in the home opener, then Woods will have a much shorter drive to pick up his things.

From segament 3 of this article...

The entire defense

Just trash. That’s the best way to describe this unit after today. It may get better, that is an absolute possibility. It may not. That’s also a possibility. After all, the same issues that plagued them all season long reared their heads once again. They played soft coverage and allowed a lot of underneath stuff, and had no ability to get to Patrick Mahomes on a consistent basis. Either Joe Woods is a bad coach, or Andrew Berry has yet to give him the players needed to run the defense. One of those is going to be found true and if the team defense continues to be this awful, one of, or both men, may find themselves gone. Giving up six scoring drives out of eight possible is horrid. Chiefs or not. After all, how are you going to get to the Super Bowl if you can’t stop an offense like the Chiefs? So it being the Chiefs isn’t an excuse.

I'm not the only Browns fan that feels the need to comment about the Browns defense. "Soft release"..allowing the Chiefs to run their pass patterns without laying a hand on them until they turn for the pass, is beyond "soft" defense.

It looked like some sort of analytics driven "prevent defense" that was created over the long summer.

I'm not blaming the players because I believe they executed the defense as the Browns coaching staff taught it.

Him and every other defender who has ever came up with the task of stopping Kelce...the guy is the best O TE that I can remember, he is unstoppable

I did miss those plays as I guess I just have come to expect Kelce in success mode so when it happened it was like onto the next set of downs what else is new Kelce getting a first downs and Mahomes high percentage of success goes to Kelce on 3rd down.

jmho

THROW,

I see you ignored the fact that the D held the Chiefs (in comeback mode) to 33, despite being handed a short field late in the game, and still gave the offense the ball back to win it.

There is also a comparison to be made with the contentious discussion in the Baker thread. The defense, whatever mistakes they had made leading up to the end of the game, Myles & Clowney got that last sack when they desperately needed it. Of course this is not the whole story, but it's a damn important part of it.

I agree with you, but I'll add that if complaints about overly passive secondaries and confused defenders are still a thing in the back half of the season, then I'm taking a slightly different tone with Woods.

The one thing that ridiculous article mac just posted got right was the Woods vs Berry argument. It's either Woods isn't putting together the right D scheme, or Berry isn't giving him the right players. I can tell you right now the answer to that question (if it even needs to be said) should we still be asking later on.

I remember thinking that JOK looked like he had potential in the game to do stuff well, but seemed like he looked really, really raw, which is understandable. I just hope the learning curve picks up.

Oh for sure. No way those defensive cushions are acceptable late in the year, and even against good offenses. My HOPE for Woods' scheme, which we know will be mostly zone, is that guys reach a level of comfort where they can trust their eyes/instincts and make some big plays. i.e. Just because you play zone doesn't mean it cannot be aggressive. We have the speed to close, mostly. But early on, I'd rather they were conservative if they aren't sure about what they are seeing as a play develops.

jc...

j/c

You can't have three turnovers, putting the ball in Mahomes hands and then turn around and try and lay the blame for the loss at the feet of the D.

In the first half the D held them to ten points. In the second half we had three turnovers and people act like that wasn't a huge contributing factor as to why our D gave up so many points. 90 degree weather you can't be forcing your defense to spend that much time on the field.

I'm not quite sure what people are thinking. I know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking they're using their emotions more than actually thinking this through. Sure the D needs work and needs to tighten up. But let's not pretend that our O didn't have as much or more to do with this loss than the D.

THIS.

READ IT AGAIN.


22-10 was the Halftime score.
The Browns Defense had held the Chiefs to NINE POINTS in the entire first half. Our offense seemed to cruise down the field and into the endzone while they looked like they had to fight for every yard they got.

Three turnovers. One ended the game, and two gave them the go-ahead.
One was on an insanely short field and one was roughly at midfield. The short field put the Chiefs up by five. The midfield one kept us from putting seven on the board, and the way we were moving it on that drive, we weren't going away with less than three.

The defense's one major miscue was the Hail Mary "punt" to Hill on JJ3 that resulted in 7. It's a broken play by us and a GREAT play by them. That simply doesn't happen with the QB about to go down like that with any other QB/WR combo.

So, the vaunted Chiefs and we had a handful of major miscues that fed them points in all three phases, but because one of them was Defensive we put all the blame in that one box? That makes no sense. The scheme and calls were working for the opponent we were playing, despite it not looking the way people wanted it to look. Because of this defense, it DC, it's scheme, and its calls, we had this game LOCKED.... until a handful of mistakes unlocked it and handed it away, and make no mistake - we had this thing locked well enough that no SINGLE mistake could have undone it. It took all of them.


Note: we didn't lose because of the Refs, for once. We lost because individuals didn't do their jobs on four occasions. Individual failures.
That's it.


Edit: 22-10 was the halftime score. My bad, all points made stand as-is.

Chiefs historically have been a second half team.. they make exceptional adjustments. There was no way they weren't going to score points. True that there is plenty of blame to go around, but letting a qb complete 75% of his passes and be in running for offensive player of the week and have a rating of 131 is not doing your job. And yes, scheme is an issue. TB gave everyone the blueprint to beat KC, and we didn't even attempt any of it. KC was the worst scenario to start a season with high expectations. It really puts a damper on everything when you lose. Screw the NFL for doing that. That being said, this week we have the chance to win and get back on track and hope to see them again in the playoffs. Bright side is this defense will not face another offense that talented the rest of the year. So there will be plenty of time to get things straight by playoffs. Just need everyone to stay healthy and for Berry to get us an MLB that doesn't suck. Cutting Wilson and just giving JOK the reps would be awesome. I rather live with growing pains of a guy with a high ceiling than watch wilson look like the worst LB in the nfl he is.

My opinion has been from jump that if Wilson and Taki were still on this team there was still a lot of work to be done with this defense.

It's also my opinion that both of these players have failed at the most fundamental part of being a LB and that is tackling they both suck at it.

For that reason I would be happy to see either or both gone. Accountable is hard to see when they both are repeatedly put in a position to make a play and fail because they can't tackle.

Like everything nothing is always but LB's have to be good tacklers and they simply are NOT.

jc..

Just where Joe Woods came up with this lame defensive scheme that allowed the Chiefs best receivers to run free in our secondary needs to be explained.

After all the upgrades in personnel to the defensive side and that was the best defensive scheme Woods could come up with???

In short, Woods may have exposed himself as anything but an elite DC. Andy Reid and Mahonnes feasted off of Woods "prevent defense" and hopefully Browns fans never see it again.

I located a couple of short videos showing more of Woods defense against the Chief's best receivers and we can see just how easy it was for the Chiefs to take advantage of Woods defense.

The Browns D against Tyreek Hill actually looked as though our middle LBer had the job of covering Hill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DogmoOs_y0I



This video is of Chiefs TE Kelce and how he exploited the Browns D.





Allowing the opponents best receivers to have a free release off of the LOS and space enough to run their pass routes without a Browns defensive defender touching them...it is a losing defense and shows that the Browns defensive coaching staff is not up to the task of producing a Champion caliber defensive unit.

Not just me to recognize the pass coverage problems Joe Woods has. I may have been one of the first to recognize how poor the Browns pass defense was, but the more time fans and commentators took to actually study the video of the game, others saw the same issues I pointed out.

Joe Woods lame excuses put forward in the article below doesn't help explain just what kind of defense he attempted to run.

NO EXCUSES, "JOE"...fix what is wrong and do your part to win this week vs the Texans.


Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods on defending the Chiefs: “You can’t cover them all”

Posted by Mike Florio on September 16, 2021, 5:54 PM EDT
LINK

The Browns nearly beat the Chiefs, but they didn’t come close to shutting down receiver Tyreek Hill, who caught 11 passes for 197 yards on Sunday. Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods discussed the challenge of defending the Chiefs when meeting with reporters on Thursday.

“You can’t cover them all,” Woods said. “There are a lot of weapons out there so again, when you game plan, there are certain calls that take away certain things they do, but there may be some guys who get some one-on-ones. This is part of the game, but when you have a team that has so many weapons across the board, you just have to be very selective when you choose to double somebody.”

They didn’t double Hill nearly enough. Woods explained the biggest play of the day, a 75-yard catch-and-run in which safety Josh Johnson found himself trying to cover Hill alone.

“It was an empty formation so we were in a certain empty adjustment,” Woods said. “We had it covered, and we kind of adjusted it during the game so we had everything covered. [Patrick] Mahomes did a great job just staying alive. You saw the throw. He threw it up there, and it just came down. At the end of the day, they made more plays than we made, especially in critical situations.”

If the Browns hope to get past the Chiefs in a postseason rematch, they’ll need to be the one making more of the plays. That won’t be relevant until January. The Browns have to put a pin in their desire to finally beat the Chiefs, focusing instead on doing everything they can to get to that point.

When the head guy in charge says something like Woods did there...you know they are in over their head.

That's a great and very fair point. I certainly didn't see it that way during and immediately after the game, but what you're saying is definitely fair.

I think I expected the D to look slow/disjointed at the start of the season and went from my assumptions.

Some of the assignments certain defenders had on certain plays were head-scratchers (Walker, as one of the slowest LBs we have, trying to cover Kelce was downright comical at times). Also, with the mismatch in the trenches being what it was, I felt we didn't have any sort of answer for Reid's adjustments. The Chiefs got enough out of their mismatches (pass-catchers) while I don't think we got enough out of our mismatches (translation: not enough sacks/fumbles).

I think your point about the offense sharing the blame (even though they overall played a helluva game) is very valid. That said, I do look for the D to tighten things up over the course of the next couple weeks and for them to get more opportunistic as they gel.

I'd like to see us sign Reuben Foster. I feel we can use him.

What I see as the next opponent we face with a very high powered O is the Cardinals. Seeing the difference between how we defend them verses how did did against the chiefs will tell me a lot.

Normally I find myself in agreement with most of what you say Willie but this I can't sign up for.

I think no I know this defense will continue to evolve as the season goes on, and this seems to escape you based on you're reply to it.

In other words this is the very 1st game this unit had played together, while Woods did know the players he certainly didn't and still doesn't know how this unit will preform together as a team.

In truth Johnson had Hill covered if the ball had been thrown in front of Hill the outcome on that play would have been quite different. Hill slammed on the brakes and Johnson to that point in time had Hill well covered continued on. I believe the throw was actually pretty poor but Hill adjusted and Johnson did NOT.

This unit will get better you have to believe that at least?

What and when Woods calls coverages will change as well as he learns how his players can best fill out his calls in game situations.

The season IMO is about growth on any team and the Chiefs are a tough matchup for the very best in the NFL this defensive unit is truly brand new going against the best offense in the league and they did pretty well. They along with Woods need to do better, and they will. I guess that is my point.

The worst part about all of this were the mistakes, but mistakes can and will be fixed. We didn't lose this game because of Woods defense that is for sure.

If you expected them to perform at their peek of performances in the 1st go out of the gate I think you will likely always be disappointed. Take away any one of the plays that the Chiefs had go there way in the last 10 minutes and we leave KC with a W. In the long haul I truly believe that losing may be a blessing for everyone coaches players everyone.

There is IMO good losses this will be a good loss in the long haul, just you watch.

We can't lose reason because we didn't like the end result.

I feel pretty good about this team and I believe in the people who are putting the pieces together.

I have no desire to be a MMQB, these guys know what they are doing and by the time the Card's show up will be a much much better team especially on the defensive side of the ball.

I want to see that unit evolve and develop I think they are going to be great I really do but reason tells me the 1st go wasn't going to be their best that is still out there and they will find it.

I believe people grossly underestimate how tough the NFL really is. I mean two to three mistakes decide most games. Mistakes are not simply turnovers. It can be penalties and poor play decisions.

With that said and if you think a team can walk into an opposing stadium with nine new defensive players and win without creating a turnover, I think you are being unrealistic. I respect your opinion if you think differently.

I thought the defense played well. Do I think they played up to their potential? Absolutely not. True, I like Coach Woods to be a little more aggressive. I don't think that is his M.O. Coach is very calculated. The more he gets comfortable the more we see. It's Ok. This defense is not supposed to be the shining star.

Also remember, most of last year the Browns used the opposing offense to chew up clock dinking and dunking between the twenties. I wish I knew their stats in the red zone. I do know points allowed in the fourth quarter weren't pretty. This is where they need to improve.

It sucked playing the best offense in the first game, but it is what it is onto the second game.

They still need time to gel in game settings. D will hit it's stride around game 6 or 7.

I respectfully disagree.
I think it was the very best thing this team's D could have asked for.

When you face the best O in the NFL, you see the best the league has to offer. That exposes what you need to work on, going forward. I think facing KC Game One was the best crucible this team's D could fiund itself in. Game One sets the bar. Now this team knows what it must beat in the post-season.

Tool your team to beat the best, and you become the best.

I have to disagree, bugs. It didn't suck at all. It was the best thing for us to experience. The season has 16 more games... and Elves will learn from this loss in ways that will prep them for tough games down the road.

Sucks to be 0-1 after one game, for sure. BUT: I trust our coaching staff to make the most of our game tape and analytics. This game was lost on two or three D breakdowns, a muffed punt, and a QB pick thrown in 'heroics time.'

School is never a bad thing.


.02

Good insight with which I agree. We needed a dose of realty to shake off the Kool-aid. We need to win, well, a number of things, and make sure we don't fall in love with our own interviews.
I suggested in an earlier post that I expected a loss here in game the first, but we use it to get revenge when it counts in the playoffs. Half a prophecy is better than none. We proved we could own them until we beat us. You are your record.

Unleash the Elf!

Point taken.

Titans at Seattle.
Russell Wilson, Seahawks Qb. clearly, clearly, clearly, tackled in the end zone or intentional grounding from the end zone.
The NFL. won't allow it.

They've not been fair considering the defense in the events of intentional grounding calls, for some 20 or more years.

10 plays later, give or take, the Titans won anyway, but! it should have been on that Safety, when Russell Wilson was tackled in the end zone.

... There was no forward progress, ( I know what forward progress does, and I know the referees call.) But! The guy never ran forward, he was running backward the entire time! He didn't even spin around to throw until he was already in the end zone. Clearly a safety.
A scoring play.
The game should have been over, as it was sudden death overtime the moment both teams had possessed the ball.

Browns Defensive Issues Coming into Focus
Two games into the season, the Cleveland Browns have two main problems they need to improve on defense in order to take meaningful steps forward into becoming a championship level defense.
PETE SMITH

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/defensive-issues-coming-into-focus


Through two games, the Cleveland Browns defense has malleable personnel to match what opponents are doing, but issues with getting stops on third down and a pass rush not capitalizing continuously stick out regardless of who is on the field.

Much will be attributed to lack of familiarity with the scheme as the Browns overhauled their defense this offseason. The Browns have nine players playing in their scheme that were not part of the team last year.

Some of the issues the Browns have result in a lack of players simply doing their job and trusting their teammates to do theirs. That should come with time.

When asked about it from a defensive line perspective in the post game presser, Myles Garrett said, “A little bit. D line is pretty much new except for me and (DE) Porter (Gustin). It’s tough to get that chemistry right away. It’s inspiring to go into that film room and see something we have been working on and it work cleanly. It just didn’t get there in time”

One consistent issue the Browns defensive line has shown is an inability to stay in appropriate pass rushing lanes. The worst offender through the two gams appears to be Jadeveon Clowney.

Both against the Kansas City Chiefs and Houston Texans, Jadeveon Clowney has rushed up the field too far on the offense's right, opening up space for the quarterback between the guard and tackle to either step up in the pocket to throw or simply run.

It's allowing the quarterback to effectively eliminate the pressure chasing from the left side. If the quarterback cannot step up in the pocket, the pressure from the opposite defensive end, often Myles Garrett, continues to be a threat.

In the game against the Chiefs, the Browns defensive line was disruptive, putting a ton of pressure on Patrick Mahomes throughout the game. Gap integrity let him off the hook at times while he simply made a handful of plays only he can make, but the defensive line had an impact.

Conversely, playing the Texans at home, the defensive line was simply not as effective as it needed to be. Takkarist McKinley was invisible. The interior did not offer much. Garrett was quiet. He was doubled much of the day, but by his standards, which include competing for the Defensive Player of the Year, he had a poor game.

This was at the heart of the Browns issues on third down, which has been the single biggest issue on defense through two games. 3rd-and-long, the down and distance, the situation this defense has been specifically built to excel, has been the single worst aspect of the the team's performance. In their two games, the Browns are stopping opponents just 37 percent of the time on third down.

Garrett was caught off guard when asked if it was fair for defensive coordinator Joe Woods to be taking heat, responding, "For what?"

The reporter, Marla Ridenour of the Akron Beacon Journal continued, "The fans are up in arms saying the defense doesn't look like you're playing up to your potential."

"It's on both of us. We gotta play to the best of our ability whatever calls that he gives us. If we don't make the play, that's not only on him. That's on all of us. So, no, you can put the blame on everyone on the field, all 11 of us and him as well. It's on all of us. We're a team and we're in this together."

The Browns defensive line clearly has the ability to play far better than they did against the Chiefs, but some of the issues they are having, including chemistry and gap responsibility must improve as well.

The linebacker position is in flux as a result of injuries, but Mack Wilson continues to play. He was downright awful against the Chiefs. His run defense has improved this year and against the Texans, he was often where he was supposed to be, but simply a little late.

The problem is that Wilson is the worst coverage linebacker on the team, which is particularly problematic as he plays WILL. The one adjustment the Browns have made is to try to have him on the field for situations teams are more likely to run the ball, then get him off the field for obvious passing situations.

Wilson is playing less overall. The presence of Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah is certainly a major reason for that. To this point, Of the 43 defensive snaps JOK has played, only 11 of them were run plays. He's blitzed four times and been in some form of coverage for 28.

Sione Takitaki has been arguably the team's best linebacker to this point, but he only plays SAM, so he's not on the field all that much. Takitaki has played MIKE in the past, though the results have been less than stellar. After a productive training camp and offseason, they might feel compelled to find more reasons to put him on the field without playing a third linebacker on the field.

The secondary is the most interesting aspect of the defense right now because it's the one that is always changing. Against the Chiefs, the Browns largely operated in zone, trying to keep their prolific offense in front of them, forcing them to take longer drives and potentially make mistakes.

Outside of the 75-yard touchdown on a broken play, the Browns were reasonably successful in their goal. They were also able to force a pair of field goal attempts and a pair of punts.

Against the Texans, the Browns played man. They allowed Denzel Ward and Greg Newsome to play the outside receivers and dared the quarterback to beat them. Unfortunately, in part because of some effective play by the Texans and a lack of a consistent pass rush, the Texans had success going after Ward and drew a big defensive pass interference penalty against Newsome.

Ultimately, this seems to be where the Browns want to be on a regular basis. Be able to effectively man up opposing teams in an effort to force quarterbacks to hold onto the ball longer while freeing up defenders to either blitz or provide extra help somewhere else. The results were by no means a disaster, but they need to keep improving. Brandin Cooks turned in 9 receptions for 78 yards. Not an unreasonable day for their best weapon to have, but hardly ideal for Ward, trying to make the case he warrants a significant contract extension.

The issue that bit the Browns was a combination of failing to get home with the pass rush, opening up rush lanes for the QB while the defense was playing man. Tyrod Taylor's 15-yard touchdown exploited this issue as he was given a wide open running lane with no one looking at him. He was presented with a wide open lane to the end zone and he didn't waste it.

The other notable change was the debut of Grant Delpit. After missing last year with an Achilles' injury as well as week one against the Chiefs, he made a handful of impact plays, including a sack fumble. Delpit was often used as in the role of a second level defender. Often attacking the line of scrimmage, he made a handful of key stops. Delpit was able to capitalize on blitz opportunities including a blind side hit on rookie quarterback Davis Mills that resulted in a fumble.

Delpit still has a tendency to dive at opposing ball carriers, which can have some feast or famine results. On the sack, he was utilized as a blitz threat not unlike he had often been at LSU during his collegiate career. They also sent him downhill blitzing the offensive interior.

The Browns did offer a sneak peak of what they hope will become a regular feature for this defense, having JOK and Delpit on the field at the same time. They get two fast, rangy players that have demonstrated excellent instincts and a knack for making plays.

Against teams like the Baltimore Ravens or the Buffalo Bills and Chiefs if they see them in the playoffs, that combination could be extremely valuable against teams that offers a quarterback that can make plays with their legs as well as their arms. The Browns get added coverage ability, but the range and closing speed becomes critical to track down ball carriers or to catch quarterbacks before they have a chance to escape the pocket.

With both playing the first snaps of their career, it's going to be a process to get them fully up to speed, but the early results and timely use of their abilities has provided a nice boost for a defense always looking for more help, particularly at the second level.

Last but certainly not least is Joe Woods, the defensive coordinator.

Woods' DNA dating back to his time with Wade Phillips is to win with the defensive line and drop guys into coverage. That is who he wants this defense to be. And while he does blitz, it's not unfair to ask if he does it enough. Further to that point, the Browns have players like JOK and Delpit that can specifically offer that as a skill.

The goal is to have their defensive line simply play better and dominate the line of scrimmage, so they don't need to blitz, but Woods can do more to incorporate the blitz and continue to keep teams off balance, attacking more rather than entirely working in terms of trying to play a prevention style of defense.

Just like the players, Joe Woods needs to grow along with the talent this team has amassed to most effectively utilize it, a process that is going to continue for the entirety of this season. Right now, his most immediate focus needs to be on improving on third down.

Bullcrap no other QB in the NFL can make that throw.. darn near every other QB in the NFL could make the throw that Mahomes made for the 75 yard TD.. he was rolling, "saw a hand", and heaved it down the field 30-40 yards.. most QBs wouldn't ATTEMPT it because it was blind luck.. but all of them could do it.

Our O didn't go to sleep in the 3rd Qtr.. we kicked off and promptly gave up a seven and half minute TD drive. We got the ball and had gained 30 yards on 3 plays before the fumble... then it took five and a half minutes to get the ball back after a FG... and that was the entire 3rd quarter... The offense didn't go to sleep, the defense did. I mean, the offense might have been sleeping, waiting for a chance to play but that would have been on the sidelines so I don't know.

Our next possession was a nice 75 yard TD drive.. good, the offense looking to take back some momentum, and that lasted.. *checks notes*.. 14 seconds it took the Chiefs to score a TD..

But sure.. the defense gave up 13 minutes of TOP in the 3rd quarter.. gave up a 14 second TD drive to answer our TD drive.. forced 0 turnovers.. allowed scores on 6 of the Chiefs 8 possessions... but yea, let's go with, the D was very very good

Did the Browns run any snaps with only a 3 man D line?

There are teams every week who in some cases only have 3 DL on the field, if you are locked in to 4 or more DL on the field every snap then that may be taking a cover player off the field.

"you can't cover them all." ??

This is my hope... it's a lot of new players... hoping they'll start to gel after a few games.... the offense had to take a few games last year to gel as well...

Woods sure doesn't have a problem pointing fingers at the defensive players, making them responsible for the the poor performance of the Woods defensive 'scheme' in the first two games.

It didn't take long for Tyrod Taylor to begin exploiting Woods defense from the beginning of the game. Once again Ward was playing zone/prevent defense, 10 yds 'off of' the Texans rookie WR, allowing him a free (untouched) release off of the LOS, and to remain untouched until the Woods prevent defense finally tackled him 32 yds down the field.

A few plays later, the Texans are 3rd and 9 and again pass toward Ward, who may have been playing man defense, but again allowed the Texans rookie WR an untouched release off of the LOS, resulting in a first down for the Texans.

Two plays later, touchdown for the Texans.

Once Taylor went out at half time and rookie Mills came in, the Texans were no longer able to exploit the Browns soft coverage by CBs Ward and Newsome, who were trying to play Woods defense.

JMHO, but a good coach tries to mold the talent of his players to the defensive scheme that is being run. Woods needs to look in the mirror and admit he needs to rethink the scheme he is asking the CBs to run.

Ward is being made to look like one of the worst CBs in the NFL as Woods defense is based on the DLine/LBs getting to the QB. Newsome doesn't look like a first round draft pick either as he attempts to play soft/prevent defense.

The good news, after some began to question the defense Woods concocted for the Chiefs game, opinions were mixed between a slap on the back and praise for Woods defense...but once analysis and writers took the time to review the video, opinions began to change.

The Browns management went to great length to bring in the type of players Woods wanted..they extended contracts and signed free agent talent as well drafting defensive talent to help produce the quality of players Woods said he needed if he was going to produce a playoff caliber defense.

Again, a good coach analyses his talent and adjusts the scheme accordingly. If that does not happen, Stefanski and Berry may need to become more involved. Both Stefanski and Berry played DB in college so it's not like they don't recognize the issues with Woods D.

IMO, defensive adjustments are needed, asap....mac

I'm not quite sure what it is about "taking time to play as a unit on the field" is escaping people.

That's just MAC and his instand gratification generation.

This isn't junior high school football. They've been together since August. They had the chance to "get together as a unit' in the pre-season and chose not to...they have played two games thus far...it appears that they are running the same defense as last year.

I may be completely wrong...but nothing is escaping "people" like me in this regard. It's a results league...and the results on the D side of the ball are not good.

Oh yes, it is escaping people. You seem to be trying to say that practice is the same thing as in game experience. Well it's not. Learning your assignments and the play book is one thing. Applying that, learning what your team mates will do and how they react is quite another thing.

I guess you didn't see what Greg Newsome II said about it. Pretty much the exact same thing I'm saying. But I guess you think you know more about what's going on with the team more than he does. Go figure.

Wait a minute... I thought the story was that preseason games weren't necessary to prep the D for the regular season. Are we flipping back to saying that they are in an attempt to explain why the defense isn't playing up to expectations?

And quit it with the Newsome quotes. What else is the guy going to say... that his coach is a moron? He isn't going to say much on the matter.


I'm still in wait-and-see mode with Woods, but to act as if the D's performance vs Houston is anything other than a negative is being deliberately obtuse. While some posters are going a little over the top, honest criticism is warranted.

First, what and who's story were you reading that said preseason games weren't needed for any team not to "prep" for the season? For the most part it's all of the preseason injuries and the fact that playing more games per year was not something the players wanted. So they extended the season by one game and in a trade off reduced preseason by one game. I mean if you read different authors and opinions you'll get different stories. Let's not pretend your version was the consensus.

There has been more than one comment by Newsome. In both cases they almost mirror what many people on this board have said all along. I mean that's "the story", right?

And in case you missed it nobody has said anything close to their performance was not negative. Honest criticism is just fine but if one is keeping it honest, they need to keep perspective and the situation into account. If not it's a knee jerk reaction and has nothing to do with honesty.

The situation is we have a group of players that have seen many new players installed which will take some time to learn to play as a unit.

By mid season if a lot of improvement isn't seen I will be glad to join those questioning Woods. But to jump the gun and attack him before this defense has time to gel as a unit I think is premature and unfounded.

Gelling has nothing to do with play calling to your team's strengths and understanding situational football. "Gelling" is a fancy term for excuse making and for internet posters to sound smart.

There was zero reason to wait until the end of the game to bring pressure against a third round rookie QB who didn't expect to play. If they don't get home, run into the teeth of the OL, bump into each other, give up a bomb over the top, then maybe you can discuss "gelling".

Woods and/or Stefanski don't appear to have any idea of what they are doing on D. What's the identity? Let's be passive and hope the other team makes a mistake?

I am watching a bland, vanilla D with no life and no seeming rhyme or reason.

Yes, they should look like a finished product from the opening snap of the first game. Anything and everything else is just an excuse.

You could be talking about Stefanski because he is the head coach.

He hired Woods. I assume he likes what he brings to the table.

The point I am making is if things don't improve as they stand now, Stefanski is allowing it to happen.

It's still a bit early to throw in the towel on Woods and the D, but with each game it is getting closer.

I suppose it is going to have to take a miserable loss before anything major is changed.

The stories coming out of last year's training camp where we had no preseason and restricted practice time, new coaches and systems, and the offense still came out looking organized and disciplined. The same stories that had our starters playing very little (if at all) this preseason.

Before I go further, are you saying we have to wait for this defense to gel so they can get to a level where they're not getting carved up by the likes of Tyrod Taylor? Taylor, being a QB that was signed by Houston this past offseason....

If you couldn't see the stark contrast from the first half of last season compared to the second half of last season from our O, I certainly can't help you with that. It was obvious to almost everyone that our O improved greatly from the first half of last season to the second half of the season.

I'm saying that you can't expect a defense to do things they aren't ready to do. Just like trying to say that in 2020 the O should have been a finished product in week 2 or 3 when we all saw with our own eyes that just wasn't so.

In a corresponding move to placing WR Jarvis Landry on injured reserve, the Cleveland Browns signed defensive end Ifeadi Odenigbo to their active roster. The team was able to add Odenigbo to their initial practice squad after 53-man rosters were set at the end of the preseason.

His addition wasn’t the team taking a chance on a young player who hadn’t produced in the league. Instead, Odenigbo had a breakout year in 2019 with the Minnesota Vikings and followed it up by starting 15 games for the team in 2020.

While his sack total dropped from 7.0 in 2019 down to 3.5 in 2020 some of that was due to Danielle Hunter, the Vikings’ top pass rusher, missing all of last year.

Odenigbo is a Centerville, Ohio native who was once claimed by the Browns but never saw the field in a regular-season game. While he may never be a full-time starter in the NFL, his production in two seasons with Minnesota showed some quality play:



As you can see, Odenigbo won with a variety of moves off the edge while showing a good motor to keep pursuing the quarterback.

So far in 2021, Cleveland hasn’t gotten after the quarterback much at all. The team has combined for a total of three sacks despite the additions of Jadeveon Clowney, Takk McKinley, Malik Jackson and Malik McDowell to the defensive line that already included Myles Garrett.

One of those sacks belongs to Joe Jackson who was able to get after Patrick Mahomes late in the third quarter of Week 1. Unfortunately for Jackson, that sack was one of only 18 plays that he has seen on defense. While Garrett and Clowney have had over 90 snaps each and McKinley has over 50, the team hasn’t found a use for Jackson much.

Could Odenigbo, who was with Kevin Stefanski during his best season in 2019, provide some relief to the top edge rushers and keep them fresh? Will defensive coordinator Joe Woods find a way to have three or four of those guys on the field more often to try to create pressure?

Odenigbo proved in 2019, with Hunter rushing the passer with him, that he can get after the quarterback. The Browns would love to see some of that in Cleveland sooner rather than later.

I never said the 2020 O was a finished product week 1. Don't put words in my mouth. I said they came out organized and disciplined... plus the improvement from first half to second was largely due to Baker's progression.

So going by your non-answer, you are saying that our D playing down to a lesser (by just about every measure) opponent is simply part of the gelling process?

j/k

I don't think the concern about the defense is that people are upset that its 'struggling'. I think people are starting to get concerned because it doesn't seem to look a whole lot different than where we left off last year.

Don't get me wrong, I think on an individual level we are seeing something noticeably different in the talent level. But we have seen 2 weeks n a row in the later minutes of the game that they can be aggressive and successful. Obviously Delpit can't be set to blitz every play, but consistently not stopping the opposing offense on 3rd and long is an issue.

Now one thing that I don't think has been discussed which would be relevant is how does Woods install his defenses? Does he focus on the basics then add from there? Or is he the type to throw it all at the players in one go and have them get proficient via OJT?

Long arms, active, non-stop motor, strong...... we could use some more of that in the rotation.

Anything that upgrades the roster.



For the defense:

It's perfectly fine for people to be concerned and voice concern while still understanding that it's a work in progress. Yes, they haven't played together and they need to "gel", whatever that magical word truly entails (e.g. it's called learn the defense well enough to just do your own job and be comfortable trusting the others to do their job, if you understand their role and your role and how they work together, you know why you just have to do your job and that's it). At the same time, the DC needs to put guys in position to be successful based on what they are currently able to do with success. If you can't be flexible in your approach to using your scheme and personnel for the opponent you're facing and the situations you're seeing, then you're wrong.

Now, what we have is what people WANT to see (fireworks and a boatload of 3-n-outs), and then there is what we are seeing. What we don't know is WHY. It is entirely possible, and even likely, that there are actual reasons they are running things the way they are. It could be our personnel, it could be their personnel, it could be what tendencies tell them, it could be being proactive in protecting deep, it could be playing it safe while you feel out a player or coach you haven't played before so that you know how aggressive you CAN be without screwing the pooch. By all means, there should be some concern, because we DO look disturbingly like we did last year, and a lot of the same problems persist despite a drastic upgrade in talent & ability. On the flip side, we are also seeing better Defense from this group, too... our Run Defense has been solid, and the team speed is lightyears from where it was. The guys fly & swarm to the ball, now.

In the end, I think it's gonna be like starting an old car. It's gonna be kinda rough for a bit, but once it's been running for a bit, it will be smooth and reliable.

Like I said, if we are still seeing the same 6-7 weeks in to the season, then we have reason to think something is drastically wrong.

Studying video of Odenigbo and it looks to me that he can play anywhere on the defensive line and be effective at putting pressure on the QB.

It looks as though the Browns have activated Odenigbo and should be available against the Bears. Maybe he can add enough of a pass rush to help the defense put in a decent performance...let's hope so!

We've got frickin' Miles Garrett and Jadaveon Clowney. If we can't put pressure on the qb with those 2, another team's cut isn't the missing piece of the puzzle.

Browns Defensive Future is Dime and the Future may be now


The Cleveland Browns ran more dime against the Houston than they did the entire 2020 season. It's the future defensive coordinator Joe Woods wants and it may be coming sooner than expected.

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/browns-dime-defense-future


The Cleveland Browns utilized dime more against the Houston Texans than they did the entire 2020 season and due to injuries at the linebacker position, they may need it far more and far earlier than they initially planned.

When Joe Woods was hired to be the Browns defensive coordinator ahead of the 2020 season, his goal was to be able to eventually play a base dime defense with three safeties and three corners on the field. Injuries, including to then rookie Grant Delpit made it an impossibility for that season.

For 2021, the Browns acquired significant upgrades with their personnel to run it, including the signings of John Johnson III, Troy Hill as well as drafting Greg Newsome and Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah. Between those two rookies and then Delpit, who had yet to play his first game and missed a significant amount of training camp as he not only rehabbed his Achilles' injury but dealt with hamstring issues, Woods hedged a little bit on just how much dime the Browns might play.

Against the Texans, the Browns gave the first glimpse of what the Browns hope to be able to run consistently. It also provided the first look with Delpit and JOK on the field at the same time.

What immediately stands out is just how fast the group is. Both in terms of raw speed as well as instincts, JOK and Delpit often play faster than they time. They process information and react quickly. Both players were utilized in college at multiple positions, which is valuable for the Browns.

That has allowed them to disrupt plays in the backfield from different angles. Delpit, for example, attacked and helped blow up a play right up the middle. The biggest play of the game for him was blitzing off the edge to blow up an unsuspecting Davis Mills in the backfield, causing a fumble in the process.

The key to all of this working is the defensive line. They are a massive group with giant defensive ends who are incredibly difficult to reach and then a 317 pound Malik McDowell in the middle, who has been the biggest revelation on the team. Malik Jackson, who was a nice acquisition in his own right, has lost some of his luster simply because of the attention paid to players like McDowell and Jadeveon Clowney, but he's still a valuable player at defensive tackle.

The dime defense is best utilized when the Browns are playing with a lead. Against the Texans, the Browns were up two scores when they brought it out to finish out the game. However, against some teams like the Buffalo Bills, Kansas City Chiefs and Baltimore Ravens, the Browns may utilize it far more liberally to match their speed on the outside and try to limit damage done by athletic quarterbacks with their legs.

In that scenario, the defensive line becomes critical because they have to give the Browns an honest look at stopping the run. Two games into the season, they've been up to the task. The Browns are only allowing an average of 3 yards per carry, which is fourth in the league.

That's not just in the dime look, but against the Texans in particular, the Browns didn't exactly have great run defending linebackers in the game. So if the Browns can still stop the run while in dime, they have a significant advantage with their coverage options and speed on the field. Combining that with the ability to blitz with players like JOK or Delpit or Troy Hill, it gives the Browns and Woods a lot of options on how to play the opponent.

The best thing the Browns can do as a defense is dictate what the offense is able to do. If the Browns stop the run, the opponent is forced to throw into the teeth of their defense, which is the exact matchup they want. The team is still figuring itself out in terms of assignments, trust and showing how special they can be, but if these early trends continue, the Browns will be extremely well suited to take on the teams that are considered the favorites not only in the conference as well as the Super Bowl by the end of the season.

If the Browns find themselves in a game where they feel they must play bigger to stop the opposing running game, they will have a healthy Anthony Walker and Sione Takitaki back in the next couple weeks, which will give them the ability to match in terms of size and physicality.

For now, whether it's the Chicago Bears potentially with Justin Fields as the quarterback, Justin Herbert and the San Diego Chargers or Kyler Murray leading the Arizona Cardinals wide open offense over the next month, the Browns may be playing a significant amount of time. The more comfortable they get, the more likely it could become their base look.

I do believe I read that the Browns played more man coverage vs Houston than they did last season and vs KC.

I'm not 'adequately equipped' to criticize the preferred scheme of an OC. I can only comment on the results I can see, which this past weekend was them looking a little questionable against obviously inferior talent.

Again, I'm doing my best to hold off judgement on Woods and the D overall, but what they did (and didn't do) vs Texans was worriesome.

this is fair. It’s not fair to expect our defense to be top level right out of the gate. The hope is we can be humming by the division games .. but if we are still struggling, honestly Woods has to get the axe

The Browns defense is a work in progress, the players are new to the scheme and they have been very limited in the time they have played together.

Will get there, but it's not the instant success we had hoped for, and in hide sight this was very predictable....

Just because you don't like the answer that was given doesn't mean it's a non answer.

I'm saying that the D may be being installed in increments. Little at a time. But rather than fans having any patience to see if it develops they're playing Chicken Little and screaming that the sky is falling after two games.

well, the defense was installed last year. And again this year.
There are new guys, but they're surrounded by guys that have been here, so it shouldn't be as big of an issue as it would be in a Year 1 scenario.

Certainly not "as big". But there are certainly a lot of new moving parts. Especially in the secondary where the bulk of the comments have been directed.

I'm more with those who want to see how this D looks mid season and make an assessment at that time.

As was written in the above article, more dime was ran against Houston. To me that looks more like the D is being installed gradually. More evidence needs to be presented in order for me to make an informed opinion one way or the other.

j/c...

I'm no football guru, but I just don't understand why the Browns seem to just refuse to blitz.

All last year were heard "a defense predicated on creating pressure up front". Plenty of built-in excuses with the lack of talent and injuries on the back end, but I can't count the times I watched offenses march up and down and wondered "well, how much worse could it be". We finished third from the bottom of the league in blitzing the QB.

We've rounded-out the defensive roster and still just seem to refuse to blitz. Meanwhile we're at the bottom of the league in allowing scores on 50% of our opponents drives. I'm not playing Chicken Little, I know these things take time, I just worry that this is a way of life.

I was reading an article today about the Browns wanting pressure to come from up front (same 'ol story), so they don't have to blitz. Whatever happened to wanting to blitz.

I worry (a little) that this may be bigger than Woods -- that this may be a mindset from the top down based on analytics. I realize blitzing, as a way of life, can be largely "feast or famine"... but I tire of seeing the the top defenses always at the top of the blitz rate chart. If you can't make QBs in this league uncomfortable, you'll be in a lot of track meets with teams you should dominate, and sometimes helpless against teams that match you talent-wise. The season is young, but I've already watched two games thinking "what do you have to lose" as the opponent has marched up and down the field.

What am I missing??

Just as you can live by the blitz you can die by the blitz. If their O can figure out it's coming, you will more than likely get burnt by it.

This is as close as I'll get to criticizing the scheme itself....

If an offense 'knows' that the pressure will basically only be coming from the D-front, doesn't that make it infinitely easier to mitigate? I also wouldn't mind sending more LB's in to rush as those guys, as they are, don't seem to be doing much else.


Overall (believe it or not) I'm also in wait-and-see mode (if nothing else, we only have to wait a couple days to see a little more). I was just shocked to see how anemically we played against a team like the Texans.

If you take the LB'ers out of coverage it will open the middle up even more. And even though it appears that isn't possible, it is.

If you look around the league you will see teams that get the bulk of their pressure from the front. Other teams know they do that but they can't stop it. With Myles and Clowney on the edges we should be getting more pressure. With the way the front manages to stop the run it's not like they don't have talent.

If anything I would suggest they move Myles and Clowney around more. Use them both at edge and inside to help find mismatches.

What a bunch of CYA fluff put out to cover for Woods lack of a defense.

Below is a look at a video example of a dime defense employed in the NFL.

Click this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGTLnb6AXg

to watch the NFLs example of the Dime Defense



Is this an example of whaT Woods is attempting to run?

For one, our CBs are playing a soft prevent defense and Mahones and Tyrod Taylor are eating Woods defense for lunch..but at the expense of our two (first round) "COVER CORNERS".

Browns Defensive Future is Dime and the Future may be now

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/browns-dime-defense-future

Actually, if I had to venture a guess, I'd say that it was the return of Delpit (and Harrison) that allowed that. You can't run Dime without three Safeties, and you can't run it as your base unless you have enough guys to do a little rotating to keep guys fresh. So, it comes down to having enough bodies with adequate talent to run it.




This is all basics that I know you know, but just to say it: When you bring an extra rusher, that's one less in coverage. If you zone blitz your DBs are backpedaling and covering an area, not a specific receiver (for the soft play of Ward - was it Man or Zone? I don't know, I'm asking... if it was Man and that much cushion, then it's him giving a WR respect or playing it safe with a WR he doesn't know, yet). If you go Man, then you may see press coverage. Which one you do depends on who you bring, or how many you bring. One extra rushing is one less covering TE/RB, or one less that can cover a WR. If the D-Coord guesses wrong on what the O is doing, or if the QB sees the coverage (Man/Zone), the chances of the coverage being beaten goes up a lot.
In the end, everything is a tradeoff and if you try to do it all (rush extra, go Man, play press), you get burnt BIG if ANYONE makes a mistake or just doesn't make a play.

I understand and obviously agree with the notion that there are pluses and minuses to blitzing, like you guys have already mentioned. I think my concerns are multifaceted.

One, I understand the model behind the old Seahawks defense. The offense basically knows what you are doing on defense (more than an exotic blitzing scheme at least), but they just can't stop you. I think to accomplish that, you have to be able to get home with four, or keep coverage long enough. If you can't do either of those, then you're in trouble, and need to adjust. We struggled in those areas.

Two, I understand Woods is not big on the blitz, and I get it when some DCs prefer not to sell out and deal with the fallout. We all saw what happened when Gregg Williams went Cover 0 against Derek Carr last year. But, I think that taking an absolute approach isn't the right answer either. The Texans put in a rookie QB. The typical mantra with rookies like that is to dial up the pressure and see if they know how to adjust. We didn't really do that. The one time we did (and it was simulated pressure, not an actual blitz), there was a sack-fumble.

My concern with Woods I think is my perception that he is very rigid. Not necessarily calling either to his players' strengths nor the offense's weakness. Ward was great in press coverage, but look how far off the ball he was to start the game. Texans brought in a rookie QB, but our game plan didn't really change, even though it wasn't doing great.

Contrast that with Stefanski and AVP. Stefanski is out there playing chess the whole game to keep the defense off balance. AVP I don't think has the strategic mindset of Stefanski, but during the playoff game last year, he went with the tried and true method of finding your opponent's pressure point and exploiting it over and over again, until it stops working (kept pulling Teller and running at Spillane).

So far, I haven't seen that charisma from Woods. Got a press corner? Play him in deep zone. Got a rookie QB starting? Stick with the ordinary 4 man rush. Don't pressure until late. Guys doubling up on Myles? Don't adjust. Myles rushing from 3T isn't working? Keep doing it.

I'm not looking for anything drastic to happen and I'm not saying to fire Woods. This falls more in line with the sentiment you mentioned that, we can still be patient and see what will happen while being concerned at the same time.

You make a great point which is exactly why I think we saw the FA signings and draft picks we did. It takes a certain set of players at certain positions to run the dime. I think the talent was being gathered to do just that. It's why we made sure to add so much speed as well.

You covered a lot of what I meant to come back around to, but instead I just rambled.

I think the goal, overall, is to get pressure and stop the run with the front four. The question is, which yardstick is being used to measure success? Is the goal to just affect the QB? Is it to hit the QB? Sacks can't be the measure because they're just too hard to get. You can't bring extra pressure every play, either, because if their OL handles it, you pay BIG.


I can't argue that I don't agree with the notion that we shouldn't have been doing extra to make that rookie QB uncomfortable, and I cannot fathom why we didn't see more calls like Delpit's sack sprinkled in earlier as soon as the rookie came in. I feel the same on both.

That said, I'm sure there is a reason; we just don't know it. Maybe the mantra is to just play it safe and just keep the clock running? Kinda how other teams used to use our own offense against us.... let us march the length of the field, but make us use eleven plays and a ton of clock to do it. When you have an offense like ours that can score in three plays from anywhere when it wants to, it's not a bad tactic to make use of.

I think it's more along the lines of keeping it hidden until we really really need it?

lol, if we're trying to hide our pass rush until we face tougher competition, then we are crushin' it.

Now that's funny !

I expect that if you always blitz teams will be watching for it, on the other hand if you rarely blitz and pull it out when you really need it, it's likely to be a whole bunch more effective.

Then again I wouldn't expect you to get it, you think what you say makes sense, so there is that? I understand that you think that the Browns should play like you think they should.

I try to understand what they do and don't pretend to be smarter then they are, I have far more respect for the people we have in place then that. Your not on my list of people to listen to I am sure even you understand that.

Coach oobernoober hahaha

My opinion is that Woods tendency is not too blitz.

Removing the threat of a blitz is like removing the threat of the run from an offense. A one dimensional defensive strategy is easier to attack.

So the lack of the threat of a blitz is the question.

If you can put pressure on the QB with 4 rushing that is fine, but the Browns have not been successful in that regard.

Here are excerpts from an earlier post of mine.



You've certainly got a good read on where I'm at.

The excuse making in this thread is thick.

Yes it is...not quite thick-enough yet tho...it needs more time to gel.

It sure looks like the Browns are putting on a full court press with their excuses for Joe Woods defense.

This caught my attention... link

ON THE DEFENSE…

The Browns are having some defensive issues despite all the new talent which was gifted to Joe Woods during the off-season. Pretty much everyone is adamant that it’s not time to push the panic button yet, but Woods is undoubtedly feeling increasingly uncomfortable as the Browns defense tries to develop an identity.

The team's stats on third down are not good, nor is their ability to contain mobile quarterbacks like Pat Mahomes, Tyrod Taylor, and Sunday’s QB, Justin Fields.

Fortunately, on Sunday, the Browns are playing against a Bears offensive line which has not been all that successful, particularly on the interior of the offensive line. If the Browns can get natural pressure from their front four, it will go a great way to being able to contain Fields.

— Browns believe it will take time for new defense to “mesh” (WKNR $$)

— Joe Woods sees progress (Daily Record)

— Aiming for better results on third down (Team Site)

— Woods: Consistency is Key (92.3 the Fan)

— Denzel Ward trying to do too much (Chronicle-Telegram)

— Do the Browns have the right defensive coaching staff? (Daily Record)


The one I darned near choked on is that WARD IS TRYING TO DO TOO MUCH !!!

Ward is not calling the defense that makes him look like one of the worst 'cover corners' in the NFL.

Cleveland Browns: 2 defensive stats are shockingly bad entering Week 3

by Nick Dudukovich1 minute ago
https://factoryofsadness.co/2021/09/24/cleveland-browns-defensive-stats-shockingly-bad/

The Cleveland Browns have played two games and the defense has been the main point of consternation following the team’s sloppy win over Houston Texans in Week 2.

Coordinator Joe Woods has seven new starters on his side of the ball, as the Browns’ big free-agent moves, in addition to their first two draft picks were dedicated to defense.

As the Browns struggle, the demand for change is ramping up. Some argue the defense will take some time to gel, but others are looking for an immediate return on investment.

The answer probably falls somewhere in between, but in the bottom line world of the NFL, when you’re not registering a quarterback hit against Texans’ quarterback Davis Mills–and it didn’t come until the fourth quarter with two minutes remaining, you’ve got to better. A lot better.

There are some shockingly bad defense stats impacting Cleveland’s defense, via ESPN Cleveland’s Tony Grossi (subscription required).

1. Cleveland Browns terrible on 3rd down: The Browns can’t get off the field. Opponents are moving the chains on 3rd down at a conversion rate of 63 percent, last in the league!

2. Cleveland Browns red zone equals dead zone: If the opposing team finds the red zone, forget about it. Cleveland’s giving up a touchdown. Teams have racked up five touchdown in seven trips inside the 20. At least they’re not dead last. This number is tied for 20th in the league.

Cleveland Browns: Too many points
Cleveland’s allowed 54 points–breaking down to 27.0 points per game, which is tied for 21st.

The Browns gave up 33 points in Kansas City, but I was willing to overlook the total tied to the defense. Remember, Nick Chubb’s fumble gave Kansas City the ball on the Browns’ 48. They ended up up with a field goal following the turnover.

The other big play was the Jamie Gillan fumble, which gave Patrick Mahomes the ball on Cleveland’s 10.

Ten points that could’ve been avoided. If that 33 shrinks to 23, then the Browns’ defense would’ve carried the day. Allowing 23 points to the Chiefs? That gives you a chance every time. Alas, many a Browns fan can fall down the “What if” rabbit hole, never to appear again.

The Texans game was inexplicable. Tyrod Taylor was moving his offense effortlessly until his halftime injury. Again, the Browns, with $100 million man Myles Garrett and prized free agent Jadeveon Clowney, couldn’t touch Mills.

Fans calling for more blitzes in order to put pressure on opposing quarterbacks may be disappointed against Chicago, because dialing up extra players to rush isn’t how the team was built. Cleveland invest in its defensive line so that it wouldn’t have to send extra players.

NEXT: 3 reasons Browns will bully Bears in Week 3
If Garrett’s chewing up double-teams, someone else on the line needs to show up and make a play. With a rookie quarterback in Justin Fields waiting to go up against the Browns on Sunday, the opportunity should be there for Cleveland to rebound.

Using season stats at this point (2 games in, one of those vs Chiefs) tells me someone is trying way too hard to not sound like they're grinding an ax. Lo and behold, our old friend Mr. Grossi is named in the article.

You lost me when it mentioned 'too many points' when 1 of your 2 opponents is the Chiefs.

Our 3rd down defense has screwed us forever, but it SHOULDN’T now. We have players on defense. Giving up 3rd and longs to the Davis Mills of the world isn’t acceptable

Especially when we GAVE Mahomes the ball three times on turnovers.

Agreed. I'm willing to give our D some time but things on D have to improve or the playoffs may not be there for us this year. One thing I'll add here is that over the years we've lost many games we should have won for one reason or another but we almost never win games we shouldn't have won. Our Browns have to play hard, smart and minimize our mistakes to win. This year more than ever because the talent and coaching are there. JMO

Just a PSA here for all those freaking out about the D...

If you find yourself in agreement with the Browns beat-writer consensus, you should re-evaluate your position.

At the risk of being a broken record...

I thought it was perfectly understandable to give up points to the Chiefs (even regardless of field position). Especially once the emotion from the game wore off it would seem they actually put together a pretty decent game, considering.

But as good as the Chief game was for them, the Houston game was a big letdown. No, they're not finished, polished product... but we should be able to see progress and improvements as time goes on, especially when we're playing inferior competition.

oobs...you don't have to rely on 'stats' to know that Woods' defense is not playing well. Just rewind the games and watch how loose our CBs are playing in the Woods soft zone coverage.

How hard is it for a coach to look at his own video and not see that he needs to make some adjustments...to mix in man to man defense to try to stop those easy 3rd down pickups playing a soft zone...why not try to disguise the zone and have underneath help attempt to intercept a pass.

Woods has been given the talent to run various defensive schemes and he hasn't even attempted use that talent in a creative way.

Agreed on the Chiefs game. That’s understandable .. but we shouldn’t be struggling to stop the Texans. They diced us up with Tyrod.

We hear all year about Garrett, Clowney, Ward, JOK, Johnson, etc … and we look terrible thus far.

D4...like I said, how could any DC not see the need to vary the defense so it's not so obvious that the Browns are playing a soft zone prevent type defense?

Mixing up the defense so it's not so easy for the opponent's QB to recognize the coverage should be a basic talent expected from a DC.

It would appear that the Bears, with an average OLine and a rookie QB should be tailor made for the Browns defense if Woods is willing to change up the coverage so our pass defense is less predictable.

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Most football fans can see exactly what you and D4 are posting about our defense...others? Not so much.

I don't want Woods to be fired...I just want him to start acting like a DC with an embarrassment of talent at his fingertips.

Once all the new moving parts get to know this defense we will see more adjustments. You have to get the basics down first. Some people have no desire to understand that.

Hey...I hope you are correct.

Last year - when we couldn't stop a TE...played mini-prevent D...and couldn't get off the filed on 3rd down - we were told that we didn't have the horses.

Now we have the horses and the play of the D has been the same as last year...while running the same no-adjustment D.

Most people have the desire to see that change.

I do as well. I just didn't expect to see a huge transformation this early in the season. Considering the circumstances I expected it to take some time.

I have no way of knowing if I'll turn out to be right or not. I just find my approach pretty realistic.

j/c

I'm impartial regarding the status of Coach Woods. But since folks are discussing moving on from him, I thought of Jim Leonhard. His coaching career, close on the heels of his playing career, has been very impressive, and I have to wonder if he might be a consideration IF there is a move.

I don't want to move on from Woods. I want this to work. Stefanski is smart; he will get the most out of our coordinators.

IF we do have to move on from him, however, I want someone that can run THIS defense. I don't want another year of growing pains... let the coordinator learn instead of everyone else.

Indeed. In the past we would hire someone who wants to play a 3-4.

Now we have the horses and they need time.

By the time they get "time" there will be some injuries and the new excuse will be injuries.

Then we'll get to the end of the year and lose some guys in the off season and the excuse will be again the replacements need time to gel.

This isn't rocket science. Woods isn't getting it done. His best players are underperforming. He doesn't appear to be a great play caller.

Stefanski needs to get this fixed. This is on him. Woods is his guy.

Get it fixed.

Preach! We all saw it last year with the offense. Why are we expecting something different on defense? Be thankful we have an offense that scores 24+ points. Browns have the time to do this right. Each week we will see a little more and get a little better.

Here is what I think we all should look at.

Last off season we overhauled the Offense and about mid season during our bye everyone sat down and figured out what worked what didn't and what needed adjustment and the offense we see now was the result.

Fast forward to now and this past off season we overhauled the defense in fact this overhaul was near total, and a hot 2 games in the seed is being planted that we need to move on................

I sorta think it's odd as hell that anyone would even give such a thing a thought after what we just did witness last season.....

This comment is to the fans and NOT YOU Prpl so don't take it personal.

This isn't a microwave meal this is building something that lasts and works and yup that takes time.

I think some people should just shut up their showing everyone not that they are smart but they are dumb, and worst of all they don't seem to have learned anything from last seasons offense.

Learn to trust someone not named you and shut up and let them do what needs doing.

Part of why I posted the above is that I was watching the ND/Wisc game today, and the announcers were describing the defense Leonhard had built, and heard things like 'relies on the front 4 for pass rush,' and 'wants a defensive backfield with speed.'

He could be a good choice. Leonard was a pretty average pro at best but stuck around because he always managed to get in the right spot, which means he understood the D and what the O was trying to do.

The perfect credentials to become a solid coach. When you look at most coaches in any sport, few were really good players, at least at the pro level.

Sorry but you must blitz rookie QBS I don't care how much was invested in the DL...you beat rookies by blitzing them!

EO..we agree, blitzing the QB should be a goal but understanding that Fields does have the ability to make plays on his own..he is a good runner.

That means that Woods will need to emphasis 'gap integrity' and have one or two LBs and or safeties mirror Fields so he doesn't burn our defense by pulling the ball down and running.

Look for the Bears to test the Browns run defense and if successful, it should help the Bears passing game. The Browns defense will need to pick up their level of play and that includes the DC who is making the defensive play calls.

The Bears look to be a good match up for the Browns and hopefully we are prepared.

I'm not suggesting we fire Woods. Our current HC and FO are way too smart for such a ridiculous knee-jerk.

But if we did, it would HAVE to be an in-house hire. We have the personnel in place. If firing a coach early in the season is the worst thing we could do, hiring someone that would have us blow up the d-side of the roster is the "hold my beer" move.

And we have fans already in a hold my beer moment.

Ask yourself this question what did we do last off season on the offensive side of the ball. Then go ahead just for giggles ask yourself what we did this past offseason on the defense.

Then to really make yourself fall down laughing ask yourself how long did it take for the offense to come around and be what it is now. Then when you really want to get maybe the best belly laugh ever ask yourself how far along are we with this defense?

And if that wasn't funny enough you'll split your sides wide open when you figure it all out and realize how silly some of you sound......And you'll never wonder why people just won't listen to you maybe EVER again for the final laugh.

Sickening and a window into why coaches and teams should NEVER EVER listen to the press of their own fans. And if some of you are really smart I mean really really smart don't EVER listen to yourself, you aren't to be trusted.

If you can't learn from our most recent experience with overhauls then when or how can you ever be trusted even by yourself...

I don't think anyone is clamoring to fire Woods. But they need to get it figured out.

And the offensive comparison to last year is a poor one. Outside of week 1 and the Pittsburgh game, the offense was solid. Baker was throwing too many picks, but they moved the ball, the running game was incredible, and you could see signs they were on the right track.

People are confusing Baker getting comfortable win the offense around mid-season with the entire offense getting comfortable. That was never the case.

Now here we have a defense that has shown really nothing in two weeks. Situational football appears to be a concern. All-pro caliber players are performing poorly. This is completely different than the offense last year. This is more problematic.

Wood needs help. That's on Stefanski to figure that part out.

And I'll also leave with this. The AFC has never been more wide open. Kansas City looks vulnerable to me. Their defense is awful. The AFC North has never been more wide open. Baltimore's injuries are astounding, and Pitt is likely going nowhere as it looks like Ben is done. This team doesn't have time for Woods to go through growing pains. They need to accelerate that process quickly.

Get it fixed. This isn't a gelling issue. This is a Woods issue. Stefanski needs to figure out how to get him on the right track.

It's not a Woods issue it's a fan issue where they think they know something they don't. And when they have it shown to them they don't know enough to just shut up, and go away.

If this performance doesn't shut some of you up nothing ever will.

For all your cleverness you just can't accept that these things take time. Today it shows everyone what is possible running Joe woods defense, now please do us all a favor put your pitch forks, tar, and feathers away and enjoy what likely is the best football team any of you have ever laid your eyes on.

Stop thinking you are smarter then the people who get paid for this stuff and enjoy be supportive stand with this team and stop with this nonsense about firings and getting rid of coaches and players and all that crap and enjoy this team.

The idea isn't to peek week 3 either BTW.

The D took a nice step today but there wasn't much of a threat on the opposite side.

So two games isn't enough to say it isn't working but one game is enough to say it will be awesome?

I think we need to see more. We had a great day against a poor offensive line and rookie QB... this is what SHOULD happen.

No we are just here to condemn before it even has a chance so now that you have made the fool of yourself, how do you like you're crow?

Slow the rhetoric a little. Yes, it was a poor OLine and a rookie QB, and an Ohio State QB at that, but, this was still an EXCEPTIONAL result well above and beyond what "SHOULD" happen.

There are a ton of rookie QBs every year, and many are behind bad lines, and many, many times they've actually been playing for Cleveland, and yet this is the most in a single game since like 2015 and I think the most by a Browns team since like '84.

It was one hell of a performance and it speaks to our talent level, the opponent's poor offense, our coaching, and our scheme.
The very inverse of your statement holds just as true as the one you made... if one or two games is enough to question the scheme and the coach, then one record-setting performance is enough to validate it.

Like always, folks need to stay away from the extremes.
We've now seen what can happen in this defense when the guys aren't in sync, and we've seen the pipedream model of what it can be when everything falls into place perfectly. Clearly, the rest of the season won't be like this, but we now have validation that things aren't as bad as folks were saying and the sky isn't falling.

There is no crow what so ever.

The D showed up against a bad offense with a rookie QB. THE SHOULD HAVE SHOWN WELL.

I have concerns that the scheme is going to be something that holds us back. Today it did not, and since it was one game you are cawing like we won a super bowl.

It is a work in progress, and I still have concerns. I do hope that next week we can play a more competent offense well and get off the field on third down.

Don't pat yourself on the back too quickly, you might break an arm.

I am willing to shut up and watch and give it a chance which a host of big mouth no nothing fools who have chased every chance we ever had at pulling this thing together out of town before it ever had a chance to show what it could have been had the press and the fans given it a proper chance. So yeah you fools get crow today and you have earned it.

Warm or Cold.

Oh the D is a long way from being a finished product still. However, a game like this one against the Bears is a pure confidence builder for players and coaches alike. And this D needed that shot in the arm for the next step. Now they need to get better and more consistent with pressures.

Oh and I am sure you feel you gave it a chance I mean the Browns were 1-1 and should have been 2-0 after a near complete overhaul 2 games is more then enough time to turn the corner. Do you all realize how silly you all sound.

Just to continue you throw in he was a rookie and they have a bad O Line and bla bla bla...Do you at all hear yourself?

So if 2 is enough to can people then 1 is enough to serve you your crow. Again warm or cold?????

You can stuff your fool comment up your backside.

Second post calling people a fool. Make you feel like a real man to sit behind a keyboard and call people fools?

"wait and see wait and see!!!" <=-- not going your way
"One game means we are the gods of football" <=-- went your way.

Wait and see, and if you don't believe there are still concerns with this defense you are NOT paying attention.

Frankly I am thrilled the played as well as they did against an offense the SHOULD have played well against.

STUD! Great game for JOK!

Ok, ok. Hold your horses.

I, for one, have said this defense needs time to come together before people instantly started writing it off after two weeks.

But let's be real here for a moment and address to key points:

1. Chicago's OL sucks.
2. Justin Fields was starting in his first NFL game.... on the road.

If it was an average QB with an average OL, I would be right there with you.

I do think this defense has the makings of being rather dominant when healthy. Today's game and performance is not a "flag planted in the ground" rebuttal to the prior concerns, IMO.

Wu, I like that moniker better than JOK, had a very solid game today. That play from your embedded tweet was exceptional. He took on a 300LB lineman, shed the block, and made a great stop.

I think the story is being re-written here, but what I saw and read it was Woods needs to go up to and including some players. I think that if you can make the Assumption that was made by fools that after 2 games we could fire a coach then it's just as easy after a unbelievable performance against a decent Bears team that the Browns defense has arrived after 1 game. And as bad as they are I mean we are ready to fire the coach they dominated them they didn't just beat them.

But lets go back and see how the fools looked at this after 2 games. Last season prior to it's start we re tooled the offense and about mid season in fact right at mid season the staff sat down and did an assessment and tossed some plays tweaked others and ditched others and from there this offense has become great lets just say that I don't think anyone is going to stop them but that's me. Using the same logic and in keeping with the idea that it takes time that was after 8 games.

So what do we do this off season we retool the defense and after 2 games we should fire the coach that was the theory, it was as if nobody learned anything from just last year isn't it. That is where the fool comes along and disregards what they should know and floats the idea that after 2 games we should send our DC packing???? I say fool cause only a fool would even entertain the idea.

Worse still IMO we finally have a staff that is really really good led by a HC that has the respect of the entire league and he has placed his faith in this man, and along come a flock of fools who think they are smarter then all of these people and they start with the lets fire people crap that has been the downfall of this franchise and team for decades. It sickens me............And I think it should sicken us all...

I have no way of knowing nor do they how things will turn out for this team. I say Lombardi but hey thats me I am a fan a very happy fan that is tired from decades of losing and I DO NOT WANT a bunch of fools side railing any of it while they serve up their special brand of stupid.

You could hear the chant on the TV with the offense on the field.

I have never seen that before.

He was enjoying himself today. It will be a game that he will always remember.

GC. Can the Browns win even ONE of their next 4 games! ( A bunch of Browns years have started 2-5)

It takes defense to win on the road and the Browns back 7, Dbs have been historically as bad as the front 4 has been good.
The Browns have 9 new players, 9 players from the 2020 defense that did not return.
Everyone From BJ Goodson, to Taviere Thomas and all the others in between.

In the 2021 draft 5 months ago, the Browns made a 1st round pick usage on Cornerback, and that Greg Newsome.
That was a statement.
A statement on, the teams feelings on the other cornerbacks' abilities to play on their roster, beyond former top ten pick Denzel Ward.

The decision to select Newsome became a clear signal that the plethora of other DB's the team has been/had been suiting up, which all had a similar skillset, was a skill set that didn't meet a top standard.

To put it simply, if they were all good enough, then the Browns didn't need to go after need and draft a cornerback in the first round with their first pick in the draft.

If the Browns chose to use their top pick on a cornerback, then, all of the similar cornerbacks weren't good enough, and the Browns didn't need 1 cornerback, they needed at least 3.

if the Db's on the team, (the Brian Allens, and Robert Jacksons', and Greedy Williams' ) were good enough,
then there was no need to go select
via NEED! a cornerback, Greg Newsome with the top pick.

But! If they go after the NEED of a cornerback with their very TOP pick, #1 26th, which they did,
then it shows, the team really lacked confidence in the abilities to return, or abilities to play of the Db's on the team already at that time.

In Road Games, Especially Road Games with crowds in the stands, Defense has always been of vital importance.
You have to have Defense that travels to win road games in the NFL period!

Late in today's game 1st year top draft pick Greg Newsome left the game with a calf injury and will get an MRI on Monday.
If he is out for the year, the Browns,
Sans- Robert Jackson who didn't make the initial 53, neither Brian Allen, Cb's,

Will be having to rely on, others such as MJ Stewart, (Safety this year, CB last).

And some of the decisions to keep, 10 DL, on the 53, inability to make a decision on Elliott or Togiai?
Could have been holding out any possible Cornerbacks, contiuity to bring one in prior to tomorrow.

Again, the decision to Draft Newsome in the first, is sort of a referendum that they didn't need just 1 cornerback,
because if they needed Even One Cornerback, then they ALL of similar sorts, needed help,
so if they needed even one, they needed at least 3.

Well they still haven't added 3 since that day. Except for UDFA's Kiondre Thomas and Emmanuel Rugumba who were long shots if even to be considered.

Bottom line, if Greg Newsome is out long term, they have a Huge need at cornerback,
if he's out just a short time, they still had/have need at cornerback.
Because they still haven't added that 2nd and 3rd options, reliable options, since that team decision of the first round pick to be used on a corner in April 2021.

( There is an international combine in London on October 12th, unrelated.)

That's regrettable. I can't speak for them. As for the rest of your post, it sounded like it was aimed at that group, so I'll let them respond.

But if your post was aimed at the 'lay criticism where it's due' crowd as well, then I'll just say that the offense didn't go without criticism early last year either... and it was earned. Baker did NOT look good at the beginning of last year. He was downright bad vs Steelers in that round1 game.

wut?

You take a lot of stuff on here way too personally.

I agree with you. I definitely think last game is a step in the right direction after some concerning signs in the two weeks prior (more so in week 2 than week 1). I don't think the game plan was one dimensional, and I thought Woods called a good balance between pressure and coverage. That was good to see. Hope the trend continues.

Now we're going to be up against a more experienced QB with a good running game. I'll be interested to see how he schemes for this one.

Honestly I feel our D did more than anyone expected against the Bears. Yes we were playing a rookie QB with a bad O-line and we had a dominant performance just like we were supposed to. A good sign!!

They went WAY beyond my expectations. They literally hit a level you only think possible when daydreaming.

You expect an athletic QB to be able to run and escape a little, you expect any QB to make a few completions and drives here and there, you expect to give up a couple hundred total yards in the course of a game because it's the NFL and that's just the way things are skewed for offenses.... and, generally speaking, none of that happened to any appreciable degree. Our defense spanked them.

That same offense passed for 200+ against the Rams and ran for 130+ against both the Rams and the Bengals. This doesn't crown us anything, but it does show that our D did something pretty damn special, even if it was against a bad offense.

Agreed and we're not 100% healthy with Walker and Phillips out 2 players that I feel would make a very positive impact when playing.

Could you please explain this part of your reply?????

I find people are pretty thoughtless in their thinking and sometimes they rush to judge things that in this instance show they would best be served by keeping their mouth shut.

At some point they should be called out so hopefully they don't trip themselves up and so that everyone see's their true ability when it comes to evaluating anything related to football. Let that be a lesson to them I say.

This team is my team you bet your ass it is I have been waiting for a long long long time for what we have and I am tired from decades of the Press followed closely by the (fans some of them) creating a hostel environment for the team without understand very much in the ways of football and this was a great lesson in that truth, isn't it?

I knew this was coming this team is super talented and it's not going to be like this week in and week out but between our offense and defense we got a great hold on this thing and nobody should promote discourse for the sake of conversation. Fans are horrible coaches and even worse at telling it like is is........................ I think fans should be supportive and yes have discussion on the team and the players I have no issue with any of it, fans get to do it, it becomes harmful when it turns fans into a lynch mob calling for someone to lose their job when in this case the person had hardly had much of a chance to get his plan worked into place.

And this was after we saw the nearly exact same process play out with our offense a year ago. You would think that just good common sense would kick in but it doesn't, does it? But I truly trust the people we have in charge and I know they will get the most out of every single player we have, and I know it doesn't happen like a light switch where you walk over to the wall and turn on the lights.

But if you all will refrain from calling for heads I will allow you don't know much and do what I do do most of the time and simply ignore you..

Read my reply above, and to repeat its offensive to me to listen to a bunch of no nothings calling for someone to lose their job. I have no issue with criticism it comes with the job but when it turns to calling for heads and in such a short time span it's time to point out to everyone you included BTW and what you don't know when it comes to football or life as well I expect which is nothing.

But like I said go on with yourself keep talking being critical as you like calling for peoples job, crosses the line and like it or NOT I will point out how wrong you are and were especially on this topic, cause that is what happened.

Most of the time I simply ignore this crap but not this time, and not with people calling for people to lose their jobs. Which I suppose now you will tell me you NEVER did, ya right.

You are like the ying to ThrowLong's yang here, complete with barely readable grammar/sentence structure. Any type of criticism is equal to 'the sky is falling'.

I never once called for anyone's job. You are correct (?). I even said that to fire anyone right now would be ridiculous. No need to let that get in the way of a perfectly good message board meltdown, right?

If you have a problem with people calling for Joe Woods' head, go ahead and call them out. Not being able to separate that from criticizing our D not being able to stop a Tyrod Taylor offense is a 'you' problem, though.

....and for pete's sake, if you're going to call names like 'know-nothing', at least spell it correctly.

This post certainly isn't aging well.

So are you done now?

I think it was a perfect storm. Our D, both scheme and players all stepped up and were firing on all cylinders. JOK was an absolute animal. Coverage was outstanding. The D line obviously speaks for itself.

On the other side of the equation, I don't think Nagy could have called a worse game.

I saw that he said something after the game along the lines of "we didn't call too many rollouts because that's what the Browns were expecting" ... that's the definition of outsmarting yourself. We've all seen that too many times from our own coaches in previous regimes.

It appears you're already suffering a severe sprain.

I don't really know what else there is to explain, but to try and delve deeper, I think that he did a good job of not sticking to one strategy at the detriment of the other.

In the two previous games, he did not call for pressure packages. It made sense in the first game. It did not make sense in the second. This game, I thought he did a good job of dialing up some plays designed to pressure the QB, while not teeing off on every play, in order to support the secondary. I thought this was on display because our pass rush was obviously getting home, and our secondary was defending a lot of passes, as well. We didn't see any gaps in coverage that we had seen in previous weeks. That PI call on JJ3 by the way was pure BS.

So in essence you're saying that last year it took time for the O to gel as a unit and those people should have learned from their mistake?

If so we totally agree.

I'm not sure whose head I was calling for, but I will say that, yes, we are all just fans. Calling people out, getting mad, and taking things personally isn't going to change anything...in addition to the fact that me thinking that I'm right and others are always wrong is pretty presumptuous.

I've also come to accept the fact I don't always know best (probably less often than not, actually), but I know that I'm on a message board with people who all want the same thing in the end, and none of us really has any control.

I think there are too many people getting lumped into extreme elements (not unlike politics), and I'm not saying that you're the one doing this.

But looking at the part of oober's quote that is in there, I think what has happened is that there are probably a couple posters who were reactionary and of the mindset that Woods needed to be fired, whereas there were others (myself and oober included) who identified concerns on the defensive side of the ball that needed to be corrected. Nobody was calling for anyone's head or trying to do anything drastic beyond saying "there's an issue here, and it needs to be overcome moving forward" and good lord the reactions...

You would be a richer man today if you had offered up to take the bet that the Browns would give up fewer than 50 total yards of offense, have 9 sacks, and give up no more than 2 FGs... damn near everybody would have taken a piece of that action.

I assumed, no matter how good we were playing, that late in the game when we had a more comfortable lead that we would back off and give them a bunch of garbage yards and probably some garbage points... but we never did.

I simply used Oobers post as the perfect example of what many have been saying all along. It will take some time for them to gel.

We saw fans react exactly the same way last season in regards to the offense and saw how that turned out. It seemed quite appropriate to point out the eerie similarity. I understand why some people have had concerns and may still have some. It wasn't to call out Oober.

In regards to Rish, Frank Z and mac it most certainly was.

There are people here who need to temper their talk when it comes to firing folks if you felt the finger pointed at you perhaps its cause you were one of them. Try not to take it so personal next time ok.

I tried to disclaim that I didn't think you were the one guilty of what I was accusing, but I didn't do the best job, probably.

Haha, I don't take anything personally around here, buddy. Life is too short. Lighten up, my friend.

Excellent post
We have the best defense in the Afc north
Should you not post about what other
DC is going to get fired first.

I was just clarifying my intent.

Yes*





*if you ignore the part about "criticism where it's due", which was kinda my whole point. I do see your winky-face, but apparently on here you can't leave any inference to chance.

I think you accomplished making both points. Maybe not even realizing you were making the second one.

How so?

2 data points you don't agree with aren't enough but 1 you do agree with is. Thats called confirmation bias.

I'm not patting my own back. And I still have concerns about this defense.

I want this to work. I had concerns when our defense had trouble getting off the field. Most of last they did and it was starting to look like an issue this year.

The did prove yesterday they could dominate a rookie with a bad line and no game plan. Good. I sure hope they keep it up and it was just gelling issues.

As a side note they had 0 take aways yesterday. I find that interesting but not alarming.

That's called progress. It just seems it will take some longer to figure it out than others.

pit...obviously, I saw some changes that I have been complaining about since the first game of the year. It only took the Browns defense 2 games to finally see that there was a need to be less predictable on defense and add some variation to their defensive play.

Am I done now ?...HELL NO, I'M NOT DONE !!

If I see the defensive coaching staff calling a terrible game, I WILL POINT IT OUT.

Do you even recognize what the defensive coaches did that I have been calling for since game one of the regular season?

They did not suddenly "Gel" yesterday even though some posters will proclaim that they did. If one does need to "Gel", the difference isn't something that's noticeable between one week and the next...it's over a period of time.

Woods dialed up a different/better/more-aggressive D than he did in games 1-2...something the critics (like myself) had/have been clamoring-for. He "blitzed" at least 300% more than in week two. His backfield was much more aggressive. Both "changes" allowed the LBs to make plays for the first time since who-knows-when. The results were nothing short of terrific. Kudos to him...I hope he keeps it up.

He shouldn't be.
The Chicago Bears game defensive performance by the Browns w/ 9 sacks did not prove/show that the Browns DB's are any fixed on the ability to stop a precision quarterbacks passing attack, espec. if they are adept at releasing the ball quickly, and on repeated plays quickly.
The Front 4 or 7 showed up. JOK showed up. But the Dbs' didn't show anything to disprove the alarming areas on display in chiefs game, and once vs. the Texans.
the Bears' Justin Fields' didn't throw the ball so, to be fair, they didn't get the opportunity.

In the Texans game the Texans attempted a pass 40 yards through the air and the wr, was bracketed by two dbs giving a 4 yard cushion each and let the ball either drop or get caught. That issue didn't get displayed as fixed in the Bears game.
What we got out of the Bears game, about the Db's is a wait on the MRI results of Greg Newsome.

Fields didn't have time to throw. Joe Burrow would, Derek Carr would, Mahommes did, Rogers would, etc. (and not by O Line but by quick release.)
VS. the Bears, the Browns Db's, didn't have to play much, which is different, from displaying that they played well?.

If you weren't a part of it then why say anything? Some of them have had the good sense to take my advise and shut up.........

I still think you're a no nothing too BTW..........hahaha thought that was funny and I did it da....................

Willie...I agree, the defensive team didn't suddenly 'gel' yesterday, leading to a more aggressive defense racking up record sacks.

It's not the players making the play calls as far as formations and/or the type of blitz being called..it's the defensive coaching staff and Woods making those calls. No, the players didn't suddenly gel.

Woods realized that Browns fans know the difference between a prevent, soft zone defense and an attacking defense that adjusts the defensive scheme to the quality of their defensive talent.

Woods and his defensive coaches have been handed a ton of talent but for some reason, came out for the first two games playing a passive defensive scheme that made the defensive players look terrible as they played well below their capability.

Against the Bears, it must be remembered that their offense is terrible and they were a bone to be chewed against a team with the defensive talent that the Browns can put on the field.

It was 'that combination' of a poor Bears Offense and a talented Browns defense that produced the record setting game for the defensive side of the ball.

Hopefully Woods and his coaching staff learned a little something for the Bears game as they watch the video.

...GET CREATIVE AND VARY the defensive pass rush as well as the pass coverage from zone to man to man. Keep the opponents offense guessing and confused as much as possible.

Build on the successes while learning from our mistakes.

https://www.brownsnation.com/greg-newsome-gives-encouraging-injury-update/?nowprocket=1

Newsome gives encouraging injury update is the headline.
Seems a social media post similar to 'I'm good' is the meat of the message.

People tend to get defensive when the name calling starts. Maybe you should have named names. Actually you shouldn't have been name calling.

I, like Frank have had reservations about this defense and that led to some questions about Woods. I don't see anything wrong with talking about it. Now I'm not calling for his job so I don't consider myself being a no nothing full. Was I happy with what I saw on Sunday? Absolutely! Do I still have worries? Yes. I will wait and see what kind of schemes we run the next few weeks to decide on how I feel about Woods.

Progress implies a progress. One data point is not a progression.

You are experiencing a thing called confirmation bias where you make a limited number of data points fit your model, and remove any (first two games) that don't.

Hopefully there is progress and we see a stout defense against a team that actually has a play caller that is completely inept.

I think Kitchens would have called a better game for the Bears yesterday, walking in off the street, after a nap, while eating taco.

Soooo, I see JOK was the highest rated LB in the NFL for week three. Nice.

I have no issue with a discussion about anything it was when the discussion went to firings and that this issue lies with Ski that set the hairs on the back of my neck on end.

When the talk turns to undoing the progress we have made I get testy, please excuse me. Then it and we fall back into the trap that held us captive for decades and you bet I will stand up to it every single time.

If there was ever an internal enemy of this team and its fans it was firings I hated them even though I thought some were justified I am so happy to leave that in the past and I certainly have no desire for it to ever return I prefer people retire after getting us a few Lombardi's.

One thing we have to remember. I don't think much of our talk has any impact on the players or coaches and how they go about doing things.

Only idiots listen to idiots.

I am not calling any one of us idiots, or maybe I am calling all of us idiots because as fans we really don't have an objective view.

Just read gameday chat or listen to comments at the bar while watching the game. One minute this or that guy sucks and needs to be benched at minimum, if not just cut outright and told to start walking home.

A few minutes later, "I love that guy!"

In most cases it is just fickle fans. In some rarer cases they are trolls trying to agitate. Either way, don't worry about it.

It is what it is and always will be.

The underlying message coming from the press last week was perhaps Woods should look for other work. Did they say fire no but the message was pretty clear then fans here started either outright saying it or hinting at it.

This is how it starts I have no stomach for it and we all have witnessed firings that have started in the fan base and in the media.. So it's pretty important from where I sit to stamp it out before it ever gets started.

Oh and don't tell Mac that the Browns don't read his posts or look for his approval for the scheme they run it will truly upset him.....

Because you are (and have been) clearly responding to me. I've tried several times to make my point clear, but you seem hell-bent on this weird chest-beating "my team" shtick.

I think the larger point of why would I respond to someone that brings so little to the conversation is a valid one, but it gets on my nerves when someone comes in blowing small comments out of proportion, and then responds with insults when they don't even have a firm grasp on basic spelling and grammar. It's like red to a bull, I guess.

And I don't think a single person has read your comments and just "shut up". They might have been confused, but you're not the arbiter of what can and can't be posted on a public message board (God help us if you were).

It is progress. IMO, the D did most (if not all) of the things I was bummed they didn't do vs the Texans. They harassed a rookie QB and clearly outplayed an obviously overmatched opponent. What's more, they carried the O until they got their feet under them. I think that last part is a significant step for the D (playing well and getting stops when the O isn't quite pulling their weight).

he was really, really impressive

That's fair. I'll admit that between the opening kickoff and the end of the game, I have flung to various extremes before calming down after the game is over.

I hope it is progress and not an anomaly.

The next game will be telling.

Yeah, I'll be very interested to see how the D shows up to this game. We have a QB in his 10th year and a very good run game. Stefanski should be able to impart some of his wisdom and experience regarding the Vikings onto Joe Woods (I guess you could say the same in reverse for Mike Zimmer).

There are a lot of elements for Woods to consider and I'll be curious to see what we implement come game time.

Zimmer know Ski, but he doesn't really know our personnel like Ski does.

Ski knows Zimmer AND their personnel.

Advantage: Ski


Their OLine isn't as bad as Chicago, but their LT and Center have pretty poor grades on PFF. They have Dalvin Cook, though, so our Run D will definitely get tested early and often.

IF we can handle the Run game, then taking away Justin Jefferson, Tyler Conklin, and Adam Thielen will be a bit easier. The thing is: we have the horses to get it done. It's just a matter of the guys suiting up and doing it.

Earlier you mentioned data points. Well let's look at "actual data points". You are only looking at game results.

Was the secondary coverage tighter? Yes.

Was the blitz used more often? Yes.

Were pressures and sacks up? Yes.

These were the major data points you complained about previously. So stop pretending like it wasn't a vast improvement in different phases of the defense.

I totally agree with your post with one exception. Who said they had "suddenly "Gel"..ed" yesterday?

Nobody I've seen. All I've seen said was that they showed improvement yesterday. A lot of improvement as you pointed out yourself.

I myself had stated they would have to learn to crawl before they could walk in this defense with so many new moving parts. That things would be added as time went on. Well yesterday they started taking their first steps.

I wouldn't mind us digging deeper into what happened between the Texans game and the Bears game in terms of our secondary. Did the Texans have a faster, overall, WR corps that we were worried about (just spitballing a possible example)?

I read somewhere that he had the highest one game rating of any LB since late in the 2019 season.

I would say it was a combination of things. When you face a QB the mold of a "Mahomes" who can avoid pressure and make something out of nothing you may tend to try and keep someone like Hill in front of you. Giving up the underneath stuff rather than take a big risk of being burned over the top.

I don't think you play every team the same way. You play verses their personnel. People can say what they like, but had we not gifted the ball to Mahomes three times in the fourth quarter we wouldn't have lost that game.

I haven't really looked that closely into the Texans game. But nothing about their QB and WR's gives me that same feeling. You do have to take into account that Tyrod scrambles a lot but I don't see that as impacting coverage.

I think we are just implementing more on defense as time goes on.

Ive watched Minnesota quite a bit because I have Cook and Thielen. They are a very good offensive team, especially at home on turf. They can put up 30+ very easily. I expect a high scoring game Sunday.

Conklin has come on strong for them, which is another concern

If I hadn't been reading DT for a few years it would be shocking just how dishonest you are.

Throughout this thread you've given this excuse that the defense needs to 'gel' and that it'll take time. Your implication is that we'd be looking at several more games before this defense is where it ought to be.

Now you want to chastise a poster who recognizes the anomaly of a defensive performance and is only pointing out the next step is to start to show consistency.

Clearly no one could rightly expect such a performance every week, but if this past Sunday did anything for this thread was prove the point that posters such as myself and many others have been making: the defense this year under Woods has been underperforming what it is currently capable of.

EVERYTHING this defense did this weekend is what WE'VE been saying Woods needs to call and what YOU'VE been telling us is unrealistic to expect any time soon.

I get trying to play it safe against the Chiefs, but there is no reason even half of what we saw against the Bears wasn't brought against the Texans.

Woods called a great game this past weekend. I think everyone hopes he continues to do so.

Were you examples better because we played a Bears team without an OLine, no real receiving threat, no real running threat and a game plan that would have embarrassed any other play caller in the leauge?

Dude, your need t be right after one great game by our defense is ridiculous. They had 2 luke warm games where they couldn't get off the field. Now that they had a 9 sack game you act like they are the greatest defense in NFL history.

You can't "wait and see" after 2 games that don't meet your point of view then suddenly jump up and down after one game that does. You have a confirmation bias, you know they are the greatest so you see it.

I saw a team that showed improvement against inferior talent and a game plan out of the Bears that was made for getting their new QB killed.

Hopefully the destroy the Vikings too. That would then be a trend, what you have now is an anomaly.

But this will be the last time I respond to you. You need to be right, you need to show us how smart you are and you need to let everyone know you are wonderful. Enjoy beating your chest instead of having an adult conversation.

It really has nothing to do with "how smart I am". It's more about how illogical your argument is. But i didn't expect you to get that part either.

It will be several more games before this defense is where it's supposed to be. I've already explained that. They just took a step forward.

But in your zest to throw out some rant I never expected you to actually follow the thread.

Your character assassination is something I expected from you.

I can understand getting upset. I read the game day thread (at least part of it) every week. That thread is so toxic with negativity and calling for heads. I assume you are talking about some of those people, not someone like Oober or Frank.

I specifically avoid the gameday threads. I'll read just about everything else, and I have never put anyone on ignore. The gameday threads are too much, though.

And to be fair - I from time to time get caught up in the hysteria of the moment. I'd hate to see how the board itself gets, so I avoid as well.

I didn't make a list so if they step forward and start defending it I assume they were one of the ones????

Like I said and will say I have no issue with discussions on any sort to[pic or issue, but firings set me off. This may sound strange but I sorta think we all should be upset with it.

The adults here understand what firings have meant to this team.... Lets hope non of us has a serious conversation on this topic any time soon ah?

" The adults here " ....

It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from. I do. IMO, the ridiculousness that has to go into a post where the conclusion is Woods (or anyone on this team, really) should be fired is just that. I just kinda take that as a commonly understood assumption. So from that common ground, your defending Woods and my criticism is kinda coming from the same place (in a way).

Similarly, I completely agree with you about the gameday threads. That's why I can't go in there at all (and I seem to have a pretty high tolerance for that).

For lack of a better place to put this:

Did anything come from his recent off-the-field incident?

Apparently not, lol....

bttb...you seem to be accusing some of "somthing" that you manufactured within your own little world.

Just whom is it your accusing of calling for Woods to be fired? In this thread, which DT member are you accusing?
In this thread, just who said they wanted Woods to be fired?

As for who might be reading the DT message board... since the DT message board is free (open to read forum), "ANYONE" can read the board or anyone can "do a search" on a subject of interest and they might very well be reading a thread that was first posted on the DT message board!

The reality is, we might be surprised at whom reads this message board...DT has been around a long time.

You weren't suppose to read this...

I am sure the Browns don't make a move without reading your posts and getting your stamp of approval, wink wink..........

b2b...running your mouth, suggesting and accusing others of something "you manufactured" from within your head...

...YOU SHOULD EXPECT TO BE CALLED OUT !

Doing your best "RUN FOREST, RUN" impersonation, understand that Woods needed to make some changes to the defense..and he did exactly that.

Looking ahead to the Vikings, don't expect another defensive performance like the Browns had against the Bears. The Vikings are a much better team than the Bears and Woods will need to continue to make defensive changes in the way he attacks the Vikings offense.

I think the fallacy is the conclusion that you play the defense the same way no matter your opponent rather than adjust the defense according to your opponents strengths and weaknesses. The "one size fits all" is no longer an approach good coaches use in the NFL.

You can't say things like that to Mac he is a special advisor to the Browns and of course all of us...................

Everybody throws their opinions around on here. Some thought the defense would be a finished product from week 1. But I won't mention any names.

last game, regardless of who we played, is a huge confidence booster for our defense.

nobody is expecting a 9 sack game every week. but 2-4 sack game is definitely doable, and QB hits are often just as valuable as sacks.

Pit...I have no idea what you are suggesting when it comes to the claim that "someone" involved in this conversation believes in a defensive philosophy that "one size fits all".

I have attempted to point out the need for Woods to vary the Browns defense and to stop playing a soft zone that looks like some sort of prevent pass coverage by our CBs.

Both Mahonnes and Tyrod Taylor took advantage of the soft defensive coverage of our CBs. Anyone who reviewed the video could clearly see that there was a need to change up the coverage so that our CBs didn't continue to get burned.

Any defense that becomes predictable in their coverage is asking to be exploited and abused by our opponents QBs and OCs. The Browns clearly have the talent to mix in an attacking defensive style of pass coverage to keep our opponents guessing.

Varying the defense and utilizing the defensive talent on the Browns roster is what I've been asking for. Let's hope it continues.

I wonder what you would have said if we had tight coverage in the secondary and Mahomes had burnt us over the top all day?

Equate a touchdown to a sack and think about it. It can be a relevant comparison.

the QB hit can lead to an interception.

pit...but Mahomes and Reid didn't have to go over the top to burn the Woods defense and win the game, DID THEY?

Mahomes took the easier high percentage passes with his best receivers taking advantage of our soft zone.

and when it's not an INT, it almost always results in an incomplete pass.


Good things happen when you get pressure.
A lot of the time.

It seems you do everything you can to miss the point. You either try to keep the plays in front of you for shorter gains with the possibility of making a play or you risk getting burnt over the top with the big gains.

I would have hate to have heard what you would have had to say if they hung 50 points on us. If you still don't get it, never mind.

pit...what you don't seem to understand, it does not come down to just two choices when it comes to defensive pass coverage.

Also, Woods got locked into playing a soft zone against the Chiefs and Mahomes took full advantage of the predictability of the pass defense Woods called.

There are advantages to running a defensive scheme that is unpredictable and has variation to disguise a team's pass coverage.

There are various combination defenses that play both man to man and zone at the same time. There is nothing that locks any team into playing either man to man or zone.

Hopefully the Browns DLine can continue to bring pressure on opponents QBs, but don't count on our all of the Browns opponents being as poor as the Bears offense was last week.

I'm hoping that the Browns realize how important it is to be less predictable on defense and to mix in man to man coverage with their zone pass defenses.

At the end of the day the only thing that stood between the Browns and victory was luck...............

Gillen drops a snap, luck.

Hill catches a ball that Mahommes thru to the heavens because he was under pressure and Hill slams on the brakes and catches it while JJ3 keeps going. BTW JJ3 had Hill well covered until he didn't. It was all luck that kept the Browns from winning and that is sometimes all it takes.............

It's a punch you have to roll with. I think the Houston game was a learning game. Win the game but try some things while winning. Fans like Mac were all up in arms over the performance and it was bad but the Browns learned and I think that was the goal.

In other words we knew we could play badly learn some things and still beat Houston.

The Bears game was about taking what they had learned and putting it into a game plan and man did we ever lay it on them.

Will see this week as we head off to Minn. but this team is setting the table for a real run going forward. Watch out NFL here come the Browns, with their hair on fire....................

And while I do see your point, I think you actually need to be objective about how the overall game plan played itself out. You see, it's a team sport with the entire team coming up with a winning formula to beat the opposition.

And for all the hand wringing I've seen from you about the defense, let's recap why we actually lost that game. We led that entire game. We had it in the bag. Then we had a muffed punt giving Mahomes the ball. We had an interception that once again gave Mahomes the ball. We had a fumble which once again gave Mahomes the ball.

You can't hand Mahomes the ball three times in the fourth quarter on turnovers, lose by four points and then try to say we didn't play a defense that could beat the Chiefs. We did. Was it a pretty defense? No. But did playing soft coverage and not letting Mahomes take the top off of the defense work well enough to win that game had we not have imploded on ourselves in the fourth quarter? Yes.

mac, in my opinion, you can't look at every game and every down like it is the last. It is a 17 game season. What works in game 1 won't work in game 4. The Browns also can't rely on any particular scheme to win games. You are constantly evolving throughout the season.

With all these new players, they are determining in these early games what this defense can do well, do average, and do poorly. They also need to nurture the rookies.

It is why a few of us stated it will take several weeks before this defense learns what they can do.

Now, you are correct in saying the talent on this team should win ball games. In the KC game, the talent was there to win playing a vanilla scheme. Let the offense take on the bigger load to win the early games. Well, the offense can't take more on and turn the ball over.

I believe the NFL is way more complex and competitive than most fans give it credit. The difference between winning and losing each week comes down to two or three plays.

Oh well, my two cents worth!

j/c

From my point of view, this is very encouraging.

Players only meeting

Myles Garrett called players-only defensive meeting after Week 2, challenged unit to “mesh right now”by Scott PetrakOctober 1, 2021

BEREA — The season was only two weeks old, but Myles Garrett didn’t like the way the defense was performing. And he wasn’t going to accept all the new players as an excuse.

“We needed more out of ourselves,” the All-Pro defensive end said Friday. “The first two games just weren’t cutting it. I knew we still had more to do.

“We have a long season. We have no time to be taking it slow. We’ve got to mesh right now, and no one’s going to wait for us.”

The Browns had just beat the Texans to improve to 1-1, but Garrett, one of only a few defensive holdovers from a year ago, agreed with the external criticism that the defense shouldn’t have allowed 33 points in a road loss to Kansas City or 21 points in a home win over the Texans.

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Garrett and veteran linebacker Malcolm Smith called for a players-only defensive meeting after the Sept. 23 practice. The defense came out three days later and held the Bears to 1 net passing yard and 47 total net yards in a 26-6 win.

“I told the guys we need to get in, get our work in and get in here and get better,” said Garrett, who set a franchise record with 4.5 sacks of Justin Fields. “We get in for what 30 minutes after meetings, after workout, sit down and correct practice and go through calls as a defensive line, as a linebacker, DBs, everybody just working on their adjustments, so that you’re not surprised by anything when you get to the game.”

Greedy Williams stayed positive after losing starting job, is ready for return to starting lineup

Coaches weren’t invited.

“You’ve got to learn to correct yourself,” Garrett said. “Coaches are not always going to be out there to babysit us or have us do stuff. We’ve got to be able to make the calls ourselves. When things go a little bit awry, we’ve got to be able to make the adjustment on the fly.”

Coach Kevin Stefanski attributed much of the improvement vs. the Bears to a fantastic week of practice by the defense. Garrett called last Thursday “probably the best” of the year.

“I feel like guys really keyed in on their job, what they’re supposed to do and I want that out of us all year,” he said.

Stefanski said the trend continued this week, in particular Friday.

“Today I thought was really good,” he said.

Garrett shared the message he had for his linemates with the media last week, saying he was frustrated they hadn’t taken advantage of the Texans double-teaming him. His teammates seemed to accept the criticism, and end Jadeveon Clowney had two of the team’s nine sacks vs. the Bears.

“That’s exactly what I want out of my teammates, and I know they expect the same out of me,” Garrett said of challenging them. “I know I wasn’t doing enough after that second game and I think we all just wanted more out of ourselves, we knew we had more in the tank. Right now, we have to keep improving against every opposition we face.”

Fire ‘em up. I hope he can be that player who holds guys accountable. A lot of great defenses in the past had one or two players out there that the other guys definitely didn’t want to disappoint.

I'd still feel better if Walker and Phillips were healthy and playing.

and Jarvis....Geesh..You gotta play with who you got!

As I said. QB hits are just as important as sacks. Cousins wasn’t allowed to breathe all game.

D played a phenomenal game. Seemed to be a bunch of confusion in the secondary on that first drive but that mostly got ironed out quick. They played pretty tight against a very talented group of pass-catchers, and smothered the run game. Their Oline is good but we started getting the better of them at the end.
Takk with another sack. Good for him.
I thought Greedy had a real solid game. Didn't see any egregious misses, plus he got the pick. Also heard his name on run stops quite a bit.

Our D made a statement today.

Agreed. Ward really got shown up a few times. Good enough.

This defensive performance was more important than last week's effort. After a rocky start, they settled in and produced key 3rd down stops. They were able to get good pressure with just a four-man rush. Pressure was bothering Cousins even when we did not get to him. It bothered his passing rhythm. The blitz was executed at key moments. Jackson's batted passes were crucial. The Browns defended the Vikings running game about as well as you could ask.

The D was the reason for today's win.

Wu was all over the place making plays!

They were able to contain a very good offense today. Hopefully, they will continue to string these types of performances together.

Game ball: Front 4

Definitely progress, and not an anomaly.
This defense is sick, and still getting better.

They looked better, well not better than last week , but they looked good against a better team.

I have concerns on some calls but over all they seem to be getting their feet.

I really appreciate they took the ball away. The run defense was really stout, though that has been less of an issue this year than the passing defense.

The defense certainly stepped up on a day the offense struggled. I hope they keep getting better but they still make me nervous a times.

You wouldn't be a fan of the team if you didn't get nervous.... that's what being invested as a fan causes, lol


I haven't seen a Browns defense look this consistently good from drive to drive and game to game since Butch Davis. I'm nervous, but I'm sitting back and smiling and enjoying what I watch.

The announcers, more than once, referred to them as the "#3 Defense" and I kinda took that with a grain of salt since that ranking is based on only three weeks, but after backing up last week's performance with today's, and against a much better opponent, not only will I hold up the fact that we are a Top 3 Defense, I will bet that after today we are now #1 or #2.

We are definitely Top 3 Run defense today after Carolina got SMOKED by Dallas. The Saints remained stout in a loss, so if the Bucs fall off, we move up even more.

Pass defense... well, we for sure improved our standing with today's effort backing up last week's.

We're for real. We didn't luck into this performance. We weren't helped out by them shooting themselves in the foot. We weren't bailed out by Refs.
This defense performed.

p.s. earlier this week I saw something that said that the Vikings had the #2 OLine in the league (after ours).

Well, we got pressure against that OLine all day with just our Front 4. If we ever brought a 5th rusher, it was just to hit them with something unexpected, because we didn't need it.

Pluto wrote that this was the first time we’ve given up less than 10 points in consecutive games since the return. It’s nice to see our D play like that.

j/c...

Browns spike Vikes, Myles Garrett joins Jadeveon Clowney as fan of 'Maliks in the middle'
Steve Doerschuk
The Repository

Jadeveon Clowney made a revealing summer confession as he settled in with the Browns.

The former No. 1 overall draft pick once thought the key for a defensive end was to play opposite another great end. Years in the NFL taught him that, instead, the secret sauce was to work next to kick-butt defensive tackles.

After Clowney helped the Browns punish Minnesota in a 14-7 win Sunday, running mate Myles Garrett sounded as if he has come to a similar realization.

Garrett chuckled when someone mentioned Cleveland's "Maliks in the middle," starting tackles Malik Jackson and Malik McDowell.

They were part of a front four that hurried Vikings quarterback Kirk Cousins all afternoon.

"Those guys are tough," Garrett said of the Maliks. "One time I was getting hemmed up in there, getting hit from tackle to guard and one time by the center.

"Those two have taken on every play. They don't mind, and they don't moan. They go down there and just do their job."

If tackles don't deliver an inside rush, quarterbacks step forward and avoid sacks from onrushing ends. Cousins couldn't do that.

"The best way I can repay the tackles is to try to push up the quarterback, make him step up to them if I can't get him myself," Garrett said. "They need one on ones as much as I do. I want to see them prosper as much as myself."

Sunday's team sack total was just two, but Cousins' passer rating of 66.0 was more than 50 points below his season number and his 203 passing yards were largely harmless. Running back Dalvin Cook's rushing total, 34 yards, was his lowest since 2019.

The Browns amassed nine sacks in a 26-6 rout of Chicago. Seven points was the number of the day at Minnesota. The Vikings scored 33 points at Arizona and 30 points against Seattle in the previous two games.

Against Cleveland, they had a big fat zero after driving for a first-series touchdown.

"We were a little bit tight," Garrett said. "We didn't know what to expect. They're doing stuff that keys in on what you've shown. Once we were able to get 'em out of that and saw what they were really trying to do, we were aggressive and attacking.

"As far as applying pressure on the quarterback and making plays on some great skill players, we showed up like we were supposed to."

Minnesota's defense fed on quarterback Baker Mayfield's accuracy issues. Garrett loved two long field goals by Chase McLuahglin that allowed a sliver of breathing room.

"That boy has a hell of a leg," Garrett said.

Garrett was coming off a whale of a week, having sacked Bears rookie Justin Fields 4½ times. Cousins is a solid veteran who was a rookie in 2012.

"It shows that last week wan't just a one-time thing," Garrett said. "We can hold up against anybody and everybody.

"I always put it that defense wins championships.That's what the great ones say. If they can't score, they can't win."

The Browns offense certainly is taking note of how the defense is playing.

“It showed me a lot," running back Kareem Hunt said of the defense. "It showed me that we can get to the quarterback. It showed me that we can stop the run. And I'm pretty sure it showed everybody that.

"Defense is going to be the biggest part of this run and this journey, so we've got to have that.”

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/spor...ell/5982068001/

My catch phrase for The Maliks has hit the big time, lol


I had *serious* reservations about the makeover of our DT spots this offseason, and I was NOT happy in any way about Sheldon Richardson leaving, but bringing in Malik Jackson and then the gamble that we took on Malik McDowell has paid off on the level of "pipe dream". Those guys have been amazing these last few games. Week 1, everything was a bit soft, and I suspect Woods was still figuring out what he had, but what we're trotting out there now is just amazing.

I will look at the snap counts but I suspect that McDowell is in on about 70 percent of the plays.

I don’t recall seeing Billings in the game.

McDowell has proven to be a solid player, and I am happy for him.

Billings hasn't played any snaps since the KC game, I believe. He's an out-of-shape slob. If push came to shove, I'd give Togiai playing time over him.

Woods changed from weeks 1 and 2 (I was whining about his passive defense) when he got Delpit back and could play the style defense he envisioned.

I didn't notice Mack out on defense today. I'll be curious to see his snap count.

I agree with Purp that Woods is gaining trust with what he has with the young guys (Delpit, Newsome, Greedy,. JOK)

Billings was in on at least one short yardage play today. They converted, but it was close.

I have long felt that pressure up the middle if more important than pressure on the edge...or as important.

Both of out Maliks and Clowney are on 1 year contracts.

Just a general, early impression, but as of this point, i would extend Clowney over Ward. I would get McDowell locked up as well.

1st Grateful thanks for all the great interviews and info you gather and share.

In regards to the numbers you put up in this last post what does the make the Browns defenses overall rating?

Mack was in on that complete garbage roughing the passer call, I remember.

I thought Woods called an excellent game yesterday. He's definitely improved based on what went wrong from week 2 through now. I think he noticed that we can still get pressure from our front four, but that we need to vary it up from time to time so that the offense still isn't sure if we're bringing pressure or not.

To keep the offense guessing, he did a good job of utilizing both simulated pressure and occasionally bringing a fifth guy. He also did it from every direction. The Denzel Ward blindside blitz went really well, and I think that's the point where we started to get into Cousins' head. It wasn't like the Texans game where the O knew what our pass rush was going to do on every play. They still doubled Myles a few times, but they also paid for it, and couldn't do it on every play.

I thought Malik Jackson did a really good job on the batted pass play. I think he realizes that he's not going to get pressure like the other three guys, but he can still hold his ground, and he's pretty tall. If he keeps the middle stuffed up and prevents mobile QBs like Jackson from having a huge opening, I'm good with it.

I'd really like to see some analysis on what the D is doing to cover their previously-incredibly-soft middle.

The D line is creating significant pressure...the middle of the pocket is crowded and not split-wide-open. The D Ends are showing impressive discipline. The aggressiveness on D is readily evident. Those things we can easily see from the TV camera/angle/focus.

What we don't really get to see from TV is how the LBs+ are covering the over-the-middle routes that have killed us STR. Are the plays there for the offense's taking...but the DLine+ is too much to allow a throw? Is the new-and-impressive team speed on defense (read JOK/Delpit) closing those routes off...forcing the QB to hold up? Probably both in many instances. Is Hill's slot coverage choking off the 'openness' that we've bled through all too often?

It was easy and understandable to pin the Texans/Bears play/struggles the last two weeks on rookie QBs (along with a crazy Browns D of course)...BUT Justin Fields looked good against the Lions. Cousins is not a superstar...but he's a darn good, savvy vet.

Something specific happened with the defense somewhere between Tyrod Taylor leaving the game at halftime and throughout the Vikings game. It would be interesting to see a breakdown on that.

Good points .. I have to tip my hat to Woods for the last two games .. I wish we would play less Zone on third and long ..

2nd.
For better or worse, the Yards Per Game metric is used for the general rankings.

No matter how you slice it, though, we are Top 5 in every meaningful metric for Defense. We aren't Top 3 in Run Defense because we're getting smoked through the air, or vide versa.
This Defense is LEGIT.

And, when people want to point out that it is still a small sample size, well, it is still a small sample size for the rest of the league, AND these numbers are skewed slightly higher by the soft performances of our first two weeks.

My guess is that it is everything you just listed.

The DLine is simply getting great pressure without giving the QB anywhere to step up into, while the integration of Delpit and JOK have added a TON of speed, coverage, suddenness, and instinctual play. Add Hill's slot coverage and the way our outside guys have shut down WRs and we are quite simply a smothering defense.


As we acquired this talent in the spring, all of our minds began to wander and daydream about the potential impact this sort of talent could have, just as it does every offseason. Typically, the sky-high levels our dreams go to are greeted by the earth rushing up to meet them when the season begins and expectations are crushed by reality. This time, the daydreams have manifested as reality. Every part of the fantastical musings have become real and the parts are playing to what we dreamt they could. Lord (or Vegas?) only knows how long this will last, but I'm enjoying the Hell out of it, and at the least we KNOW what this group is capable of.

j/c...

I wonder if it’s just the emergence of JOK and Delpit to cover up LB warts.

I also noticed us yesterday bringing 5 more than i remember in the past

Good question. I imagine it has something to do with adding Delpit, like you and Purp mentioned. I think it also has something to do with adding JOK, who has been phenomenal. He and Smith are both coverage LBs and I believe they are now the starters. JOK has also emerged as a significant run-stuffer as well. So I think he has added a whole new dimension.

That's all just some observations and speculation on my part. I really don't know what the right answer is.

Agreed. Our coverage with the new guys is so much improved

05...It was good to see our CBs playing more man to man, meaning Woods did 'vary' his defense, making them less predictable. Cousins and the Viking might not have game planned for the

Browns defense playing as much man to man pass coverage. I thought Greedy Williams looked good and proved that he is ready to contribute.

With the Chargers playing tonight it will give the Browns coaches and players a chance to get an opportunity to do some scouting for our upcoming game next Sunday.

Just what little checking I've done, it looks like the Chargers are better than average passing the ball and maybe below average with their run game.

I believe Joe Woods is a good coach and knows what he's doing. He made adjustments this week to fit the Vikings. That says something right there. He will probably use the same scheme against the Chargers who have the same type of O.

Yeah, I was glad to see some man-to-man coverage as well. I think the strengths of all our corners in college was man-to-man coverage, including Greedy, Newsome and Ward.

Herbert definitely looks like he's a QB on the rise. I hope we can continue to give him varied looks to exploit his inexperience while getting pressure with our front four on a consistent basis.

For anyone with access to the stats that are behind pay walls, how does the Chargers OLine rank as compared to Minnesota's or any others? Are there opportunities for us to exploit their Oline? I've looked at their roster and don't recognize ANY of the player names on their line, and I've noticed that they simply can't run the ball worth squat... hopefully, this means our chances are improved.

If we can fix this week's issues on the offense and get both lines hitting on all cylinders at the same time... Super Bowl.

Hopefully, we get Newsome back soon, but Greedy seemed to have stepped up yesterday which was another bonus.

And the next IR guy or roster bubble move, I'd like to see them sign Clay Matthews III for the duration of the season. I think it would help our LBers long term to learn from his experience and with JOK especially. I know he's not what he once was and may even be done, but my inner homer would really like to see this happen unless he's just washed up. Who knows, with teams keying on JOK (highest rated LB in the NFL!), CM3 could resuscitate his career for half a year of FIRE or at least spend his final NFL days in the orange and brown WHERE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN AS A ROOKIE.

Chargers OL was not good in the past few years, but they really fortified it this past year in FA and the draft.

Not an easy matchup next Sunday. That’s why I thought winning against Minnesota was so crucial

Yeah, we're in for a real gauntlet over these next few games.

I doubt he wants to be here, and has been on record as not wanting to play in his father's shadow, but beyond that, not only do I doubt him being in football shape, I think we're done with the past and wishing for yesteryear. We're about Today and creating all new Legends in Cleveland. His father's legacy is his own, CM3 had a different path.


I'm sooooo stoked for Greedy and how he played. I have been vocal that I felt he wasn't all that, and definitely hadn't shown anything that warranted the hope & hype that went with him.... yesterday, he validated all of that. He played SOLID and I'm super stoked for it! To know that we are THREE DEEP in SHUTDOWN CORNERS is freaking INSANE. Then we add Hill to it in the Slot and it's like Woah!
Yes, QBs are still gonna get completions against that, but it certainly makes the task a lot tougher, especially with our pass rush; and that benefit is circular. That coverage ability helps the rush, and that rush helps the coverage. Once it gets going, it's like directing a reflection into a mirror, or setting up a feedback loop with a microphone and speakers.


IF we can get this Offense back on the rails and keep the roster generally healthy, there is nothing to stop us but ourselves.
Actually, including the current issues, we've seen that there's nothing that can stop us but ourselves. All of our issues this year are on our side of the street. KC didn't beat us, we gave it to them. We beat us. Our struggles with the Texans was much more on us than anything they did. Our terrible offense yesterday was ALL on us, 100%.

Only concerned about Arizona. We will beat the LAC and Denver. Ari, Bal, GB, are the only 4 games I am worried about losing at this point. Chargers and Pats could get lucky enough to beat us, but I doubt it. Any team COULD beat us on any given day, but I also doubt we will lay any eggs at this point or just collapse. Just not worried about those other teams we play.

I won't give the "I'm just focused on this week" schtick because I'm not the team, but honestly, I'm only really worried about this week, lol.... still, I think the Chargers are a team to worry about, and so is Denver and 'Zona.

Honestly, I think we need to worry about every team through to the mini-Bye. Everyone is scrappy right now. Everyone still has a shot and is still fighting hard, and some will start laying out just a little extra to try to get another 'W'.

The Chargers O is worrisome. Their D is suspect. They are vulnerable to the Run, big time, which of course plays right into our hands... but, we've seen plenty of times where our own Browns sucked against the run, but got up and put on a display of run stopping dominance for just one game. You can't just look at the stats and think that's what you're getting.

Denver's D is as legit as ours. They're showing themselves to be just as solid against the pass as the run. That's a problem, and our current O that we just trotted out the past two weeks won't do squat against them. I don't care how good our D is, that's a Loss waiting to happen.

Arizona's offense is otherworldly, even compared to ours, right now. With their middle of the road defense, that could easily be enough to take us down.


We have three games before that mini-Bye.
Going 2-1 is ok, even understandable, but 1-2 or worse is unacceptable, especially since we already know that our entire problem on offense is Us (QB) and not anything our opponents are doing.

Arizona offense is downright scary. Not sure how to stop them lol. I bet that NBC wishes they could flex that one to SNF

I just watched some video of Arizona vs Vikings, and I strangely felt rather calm about us facing them.

I think our defense can cover their WR's. I think we can go Man against them with Safety help. They don't have a run game, at all, aside from Murray scrambling time to time.

If the DLine can hurry Murray and contain his running, we just might see an incredibly opportunistic day from our D. The thing I noticed with Arizona v. Minny is that the Minny DLine had no interior push at all and the Ends got FAR upfield. On top of that, their CB's were TERRIBLE.

I need to watch how they handle the Rams. I know we have half their secondary, so that defense isn't what it was. I don't know anything about their DLine except that they have Aaron Donald. I did see that ARI finally ran the ball, but that is definitely an anomaly right now.

So, it appears that the Rams have a rather poor run defense. They're giving it up at 4.7 a carry. Actually, they have a rather poor defense altogether.. so, they definitely are NOT the defense they were last year. They're basically just Aaron Donald and some other guys. I mean, they gave up 50 yards rushing to James Conner, on top of the 120 they gave up to Edmonds. Arizona even let Colt Freaking McCoy rush twice!

Knowing that, I actually feel a LOT better about facing ARI than before.

Maybe it's my old Browns fan syndrome, but I'm worried about a lot of games, including the Bengals, as well. If our passing offense hadn't fallen asleep, I'd be less worried about LAC and Denver, but that's currently where the trend is.

I'm very impressed with how the D has performed recently, but we can't count on them to hold teams to single digit scores in every game. Next to Mahomes, Herbert is probably the most dangerous QB we will have faced so far. I know Cousins had done well, but I never felt like he had the "it" factor like Herbert has.

That's interesting.

LA definitely has that prince and pauper type roster. They put a ton of their cap into world class players and then the rest of the roster is pretty much JAGs.

People have tried over and over again to explain that it would take them time to gel. Now that they have started doing so, people are trying to figure out the mystery of why they're so much better.

Jel-ing does not equal playing with more aggression and more discipline. Playing tighter coverage on receivers rather than giving an 8 yard cushion - like they showed again Sunday - isn't jel-ing...it's play-calling and scheme.

The critics all along - with scant exception - were complaining over-and-over again about the scheme and the play-calls...complaining that we have all these new tools/athletes and we weren't using them. Actually using them does not equal Jel-ing.

Malcom Smith playing the "green-dot" and looking significantly better than the pre-injury Anthony Walker isn't jel-ing.

JOK getting more-and-more snaps isn't jel-ing...clearly that should have been the case from day one...Delpit getting on the field (finally) isn't jel-ing.

Every decent team will jel as the season progresses...communication will improve (unless the coach is a complete dolt)...guys will think less and react more (unless the player is a complete dolt). No critic of Woods doesn't understand that.

The critics of Woods know what they saw with a passive, undisciplined, soft, darn-near-prevent Defense and complained about it...it's quite simple really.

I'm happy he's gotten it figured out since halftime of the Texans game...but I won't give him credit for waiting on the Jello when the defense plays dramatically different than it did when the complaining started.

I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand here. You don't play a style of defense that your defense is not yet prepared to execute. That takes some time. Once they are capable of executing that defense, you run it.

Let's recap shall we? Posters kept telling you that it would take some time. That when the players were ready to run a more aggressive defense we would.

Now that it's actually happening the only straw you have left to drink from is, "Yeah it happened exactly the way you said it would but that's not it".

You make it sound as if Woods had no clue what he was doing and then suddenly the light came on in his brain. Do you seriously think people will buy into that?

I doubt there was anything to really figure out except whether or not the young kids were ready to step in and contribute at a high level. JOK & Delpit are a big, big part of the change, and I think he was easing them into it and getting their feet wet a bit at first. Without them, I don't think he can run this defense the way we are. I mean, we can, but it won't be as effective.

It definitely isn't like he had to figure out what works, the man loves an aggressive defense, so you don't have to ask him twice to bring heat, but his job is to bring home W's, and he does that the best way he & Ski see fit. In week 1, that was something much more conservative than we see now partly because of opponent and partly because of personnel and knowing that everyone knows their roles.

Guys are hitting their stride, now, though... we can expect them to keep getting better from here on out.

If they weren't ready to run it on Opening Day, why did they not play together in pre-season? If you remember, that was an equal part of the argument in the first place. If they needed more time to figure it out, why did they not actually work on it when they could in a pre-season game? That too is on Woods. The "light bulb" moment doesn't happen in 1.5 games either...he obviously and dramatically changed the way he was calling the game (thankfully and to his credit)....Woods started bringing more pressure and aggression...THAT'S been the difference.



Woods' defense didn't just get here in 2020. He has run it since he's been here and it looked no different in our first 1.5 games this year than it did last year.

Sending a 5th rusher is not complicated. This isn't jr high school football. Less-than-8 yard cushions on WRs is not complicated. Demanding discipline is not complicated. These guys are pros. New guys in Clowney, A Walker, M Jackson, JJ3, T Hill, Takk are vets...Garrett, D Ward, Greedy, M Smith, Takitaki, Wilson & MJ Stewart played this defense last year.

Those guys were ready - or should have been ready - on Opening Day.



Who said that? A straw-man somewhere? The complaints by the critics were very specific. Discipline is something that is coached. Scheme is coached. Aggression is in the player...if the scheme allows it.



Straw again? Put that thing back in your chest. Yet another straw man by you. Do you think people don't see that out of you time-and-time again?

Who said Woods had no clue? Again, the critics were very specific. The changes that Woods has made - and that most every critic on here has credited-him for - have included better discipline, more aggression and less soft coverage along with more pressure. The scheming is night vs day...I think he got much more questions about that than any Jello cooked up over a 1.5 game span.

Joe Woods: Our job is to teach these guys the scheme

Thomas Moore 6/18/2021
link

The Cleveland Browns offense is expected to be one of the league’s best in 2021 as the unit is returning every important player from a successful first season under head coach Kevin Stefanski.

The situation is quite different on defense after general manager Andrew Berry put the unit under a major renovation in the offseason.

Berry brought in defensive ends Jadeveon Clowney and Takk McKinley; defensive tackles Malik Jackson, Sheldon Day, Tommy Togiai, Malik McDowell and Damion Square; linebackers Tony Fields II, Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah and Anthony Walker; and defensive backs Greg Newsome II, Troy Hill, John Johnson III and Richard LeCounte III.

The defensive unit is also welcoming back cornerback Greedy Williams and safety Grant Delpit after both players missed the 2020 season with injuries, and defensive tackle Andrew Billings, who opted out last season.

The man tasked with making all those parts work together is defensive coordinator Joe Woods, who while dealing with several new players does have the advantage of having his coaching staff together for a second season.

Woods was asked about all the new faces on Thursday and said that as long as the coaching staff does its job, he is confident everything will work out, according to a team-provided transcript:

“It is my job to go in there and our job as coaches to teach these guys the scheme, the techniques that we are using and to rep it. That is what the offseason is for and that is what training camp is for. You are going to have things that you are going to come across and adversity throughout the season, but as long as we can establish our defensive scheme and guys can execute, I feel like it will not be as much of a problem as people may think it will be. Again, there may be six or more starters [added to the roster], but I am excited about that just in terms of what we were able to bring in.”

The additions will allow the defense to create the type of favorable matchups in the secondary and along the defensive line that were not possible last season, according to Woods:

“Yes, dime package is a big part of what I was involved in in (former NFL defensive coordinator) Wade Phillips system in Denver. You are always trying to put yourself in a position where you have favorable matchups. When we go dime, we are putting more cover guys on the field, and we are putting more speed on the field. It probably will not be as much as I ran in Denver, but it will definitely be a lot more [than last year], especially on third down and maybe two-minute situations.

“There will be ways if we know we are getting a getting certain protections that we are going to work on a couple of guys, we can move guys around and create the one on ones that we want to create. That is what excites me the most is really just digging back into those packages when we have our pass rush unit out there in passing situations and doing what we want to do.”

Given that many of the defensive struggles in 2020 were due to things outside of the coaching staff’s control, it would be easy for Woods to point fingers. Given the opportunity on Thursday, however, he chose to focus on the road ahead:

“Last year, there was a whole lot of things you can say, but we have the mindset of no excuses and no explanations. Week in and week out you try to find a way to win. Just based on practice time and players available, there were certain things that we were not able to get to, but now moving forward, we have already started the process in the offseason of installing some new defensive packages and some new cover schemes, just so we can dictate the tempo a little bit more.”

The Browns have serious aspirations at making a run at the Super Bowl this season. A potentially high-powered offense will receive the majority of the headlines along the way, but it is the rebuilt defense that will make the difference between achieving that goal or ending another season in disappointment.

I agree. I understood the caution with KC. But Tyrod Taylor was 10 of 11 until he went out with a hammy and Woods didn't send pressure to the QB rookie 4th rounder until the end of the game...by Delpit who hadn't played in a year. That made no sense...and started the crap-storm.

It appears that the "problem" has been solved. Kudos to the coaches for getting that turned around.

Woods made it very clear, the work of installing the scheme and teaching the techniques in the "off-season" and during "training camp".

Our corner backs played man to man pass coverage in college and I know Ward was very good at it. Rookie CB Greg Newsome was all Big Ten 1st team and a skilled man to man CB at Northwestern.

Greedy Williams was also experienced at playing man to man when he was a freshman at LSU. It's not like DC Woods was forced to play that soft zone defense in the first game of the season because he lacked CBs capable of playing man to man.

The Browns CBs played the defense Woods called.

Thanks for the article you posted Mac.

Looks like Joe has done a good job teaching what he wants and the defense is hitting on all cylinders and it's earlier then I would have thought given the defense wasn't all out playing together until the end of training camp.

Great job Joe, don't you think Mac?

Still fighting the good fight, I see.

I'll say one thing... I saw very little of the confusion in the secondary that was present previously. Outside of the first drive, I'm not sure I saw any. Corners also played well overall vs a very talented group of pass catchers. Rush defense continued to be excellent.

PPE trued to explain it to you. You just don't want to hear it. Woods loves an aggressive D. JOK is a rookie and Delpit might as well be. Getting them ready doesn't happen overnight.

You win. Woods sucked and had no idea what he was doing. Then suddenly a light came on and his head and he figured it all out.

Not anymore. I had an epiphany. Joe Woods had no clue what he was doing. All of last year he screwed up. The lack of personnel he had to run the type of D he wanted to install had nothing to do with it.

This year he just kept screwing up by running the same thing and the fact that many of the players were new and some of the key players he needed to implement that scheme were very young and inexperienced had not one thing to do with it.

He just woke up one day and realized what a screw up he was and this latest scheme we've been watching the past two weeks came to him in a dream.

I hope I have that right.

I think the intensity came from Myles calling them all out in a presser a day or three(?) before the Bears game. And from Myles balling out going 120%, the others followed suit. They could also be responding to the more aggressive play calling.

I agree with that.

What we are seeing isn't gelling.

It's woods getting his head out of his you know what and Myles lighting a fire under woods and the players.

I like that myles called them out in public then went out and and backed up his own talk.

In hindsight, I felt they played and Woods called a pretty decent game vs the Chiefs. I don't know what happened vs Houston, but the boys certainly woke up vs the Bears. The Vikings we're going to be a tough test, but the secondary played pretty tight, and Woods starting getting more aggressive (sending a 5th more often). Woods's timing on said play calls was perfect as well.

and we've done most of that in just two games

It's still gelling no matter if it morphs on it's own or takes players getting on other players ass..

There are 2 ways to see that, in terms of context.

I was just going to say....I'd love to see the same graph in two other forms. Weeks 1 & 2; Weeks 3 & 4.

Further, the QB time to release would be interesting too. Same weekly breakdown.

It was the play calling. Myles didn't implement a more aggressive defensive game plan because Delpit and JOK were ready to step up to fill their roles.

A good old fashioned pep talk helps if the team leader gets the players to buy in. That certainly could have helped. But if your team isn't prepared to run an aggressive defensive game plan that doesn't really change much.

One of these 3-1 AFC teams HAS to miss the playoffs.
The Browns are already 0-1 against the AFC WEST with their only loss, in the opener against KC,
So the Chargers, (and Denver, and Los Vegas games) have already been way more crucial to win against than the Vikings game.
If the Browns hope to make the playoffs.