One of the reasons I like PFF is they use numbers to drive conclusions.

Most of the focus for really all of us has been on the changes that have been made to the Browns heading into this season. Surprisingly there truly has been very little talk about Baker....

That said how do we see Baker progressing?

Will Baker be the QB we saw to close the year last season or the one who started the season?

Where will he regress or hopefully grow the most?

Who will Baker lean on heavily in the passing game?

This is what they said about Baker and where Baker ranks heading into the 2021 Season.

*********************************

10. BAKER MAYFIELD, CLEVELAND BROWNS

Give Coach of the Year Kevin Stefanski a ton of credit for how he helped set up his quarterback for success. The Browns protected Mayfield early in the season, but when Stefanski opened up the playbook, Baker excelled. He was the second-highest-graded quarterback in the league from Week 7 through the playoffs. He also ranked in the top five from a clean pocket, on standard dropbacks and on early downs for the entire season — all of which are important and stable metrics.

Considering the offensive weapons Mayfield has around him and his offensive line's league-leading 84.4 pass-blocking grade last year, expect him to pick up where he left off for the 2021 season.

**************************************

They have Baker at #10 to start the year will he go up the ranking chart?

Would the Browns be wise to get him under contract NOW?

How will the changes that have been made to our offense (very little) play into Bakers performance?

How will the changes made on the Defensive side of the ball impact Bakers play?

The following is strictly my opinion.

PFF is analytic driven. I am going soley by what I have seen since Baker arrived in Cleveland.

Baker has shown steady progress.
He will him continue where he left off last season.

We all know what Baker went through in head coaches and offensive coordinators.

Continuity allows to build upon rather than have to restart a new learning process.

Baker is now comfortable in this system. This allows AVP and KS to expand the playbook.

Baker has grown under the guidance of AVP in honing his mechanics. And with KS plus AVP in the understanding of how the offense should work.

Growth comes with knowledge and experience if the person commits to the process. Baker has done that and will only get better.

Baker leans on Jarvis the most. However, that will no longer be the case. Because now it is about execution of the offense. He will do what the play dictates. Find the right option. Deliver on target and on time.

There are so many subtle parts that go into the development of a quarterback. When to give up on a play. How to put touch on screen passes. How to throw a guy open.
When to drill it. How to move and still control your body and throws. How to move guys with your eyes. Or, not stare down your target. How to really execute play action.

All these keys can happen when you grow with the same people. Timing and chemistry is practice, practice, practice.

PFF's grade already acknowledges where Baker is now. He will rise up those rankings.

The contract will happen. Berry will make it happen as he sees fit. That is good enough for me.

The changes in the offense will now happen naturally as a by product of the players being together with the same coaches.

The "new" defense should feed the offense with more opportunties. The result of more three and outs and turnovers. The more offensive plays run; the more scoring chances.

If all goes in the direction that is has begun and is to date.

Baker Mayfield will have a long career in Cleveland and become the Browns greatest quarterback.

Otto is the gold standard. Reaching that status will be some kinda goal to top.

My uneducated opinion is that you don't make the kind of improvement he did throughout last season and then have all progress grind to a halt. I think you'll see him continue to improve and then switch over to working on specific holes in his game.

I think an offseason with Stefanski will only do wonders for him. He can’t possibly be worse than he was to start last season, so we have that going for us.

He may not get better per se, but he should become more efficient and intelligent with the experience and continuity

I agree. I think Baker's development is far from complete. He talks about "being in the same offense" and understanding the play calls better and without having to think through things as opposed to knowing when and what to do. He KNOWS he has more in him.

The coaches talk about Baker's development and how that development leads to opening up the offense. They KNOW there is more in him.

Baker has always had the toughness, grit, attitude, arm talent and leadership abilities...things you can't really teach...things you either have or you don't.

I wouldn't take any other QB in the league over Baker. What he has accomplished and with the hands he was dealt is remarkable...this new hand is something neither he nor diehard Browns fans could predict was coming.

Everywhere Mayfield has played, he's been underestimated.. Not sure what it is about him that makes people devalue him the way they do. He's got a rocket launcher for an arm. He's accurate, he's a team first kinda guy, he's well thought of by teammates and coaches... Yet, if you talk to the Media, he's almost never "THE GUY"!

Say whatever you want about the numbers,, but Mayfield knows how to play the game and he's committed to the Browns and his Craft.. Look no further than the effort he's undertaken to get his body in better shape as proof of that.

This is the Best QB we've had since Kosar..

We all have spent so much time focused on the Defense heading into the season it's sorta weird but we forget about Baker.

I think you captured Baker and where he stands at this juncture real well.

The key is progress as it is for the entire team, but Baker really needs to continue to elevate and improve his game.

I want to see him slow things down for himself in big games and concentrate on execution and the nuances of the game, like moving safeties with his eyes. I saw glimpses of that from him last year.

The homer in me based on his performance over the close of the season feels very comfortable with saying Baker this season shows everyone why he was drafted #1. Few of the talking heads actually give him credit for continuing to believe in himself and or for the hard work he has done to elevate his game, and with the weapons he has we could be looking at a monster year from Baker. When he came to Cleveland we were a dumpster fire and his first few seasons were rough because of it. For him to come thru all of that and to stand where he does now speaks loudly to who he is inside.

The thing he has to do better at is keeping himself calm in big games. I think the Browns have a level of confidence when it came to Pittsburg and he took them apart. That same level of calm execution needs to take him through a full season. If he can continue his ascent he will dismantle the Ravens this year I think the Browns know they can beat all of the teams in the division at this point so I really expect him to calmly take the North apart.

He is about to get a big test against KC, last year KC blitzed him a lot and he did Okay in those situation I want to see those numbers improve when he is facing teams who blitz. I also want to see him make more adjustments at the line.

But he is at this time in a great place, I think all the indicators point to him having a great season, and I also think he is sorta going unnoticed which I find sorta weird?

Agree with so many of these posts.

And ... Yes he will continue to grow.

I agree with many of these posts also. I think Baker will continue to grow because he has a chip on his shoulder to win and is willing to work. Also, he has a coach that will continue to put the right pieces around him to help him. that is important too.

I'm not sure either, but the feeling is rampant throughout the sports media complex. I think he can win a few Super Bowls and will still only be looked at as a "game manager" with average qb skills.

The whole trashing/downplaying his potential is just a media thing that gets eyeballs. Nothing nefarious or sophisticated.

Yes, I expect to see growth, as he has shown growth each year. Everyone talks about how badly he played in 2019. Go back and watch, he had a lot of moments where he played well and corrected flaws from 2018. I think 2019 was more about different players/units breaking down all the time...a true collective bust of a season.

The one area that he has grown the least is in passing under pressure. He is still not good in this area, and it matters in the playoffs, when you face very good defenses (isn't there a thread about this? and a recent SB example?). I know a lot of people will come at me with that the reasons that he will be better under pressure in 2021, but bottom line, he needs to be.

I'll stick to the same theme with Baker as I do with so many new players on our defense. Fluidity, execution and confidence only develop with playing time and repetition. Baker never had that with the Browns until Stefanski came along. This is the first time Baker was actually being coached in a manner where the coaching staff allowed him to get familiar with the system before "depending on his arm" to win games.

What we saw in the last half of last season was a QB becoming familiar with a system. I don't even think what we saw last season was all of Stefnski's playbook. I think it was only the part he felt sure Baker was familiar with, comfortable with and felt Baker could execute with the limited time he had been groomed within that system.

For a QB to become great takes certain ingredients. He has to have confidence he is a winner. And while we all know Baker is a confident individual, his first two years in the NFL must have had him very frustrated by the time the 2020 season rolled around. He has to believe in the coach and the system he is playing in. He has to see that turn into wins on the field of play. I expect us to see things from Stefanski's playbook which we have never seen before. And not just a little bit either.

All of those ingredients are in place now. The offense is in tact from last season. The things Baker had to learn last year are becoming natural and second nature to him now.

All of that gives the fertile soil it takes to produce a winning crop. Every sign I can see leans towards Baker living up to what we call him here at home when watching games. "Baker, Baker touchdown maker!"

There's no guarantee that everything will turn out that way. Life can throw you curves when you least expect it. But the table is set. Every tool that a QB can ask for is at his disposal. The huge leap he took last season is the best indicator one could possibly ask for. There's no logical train of thought that would allow me to conclude that he will not progress even further.

So with all of that said, yes, Baker will continue to grow.

To somewhat dovetail with what you and dnadawg said, I expect Baker to grow, not only because of structure and familiarity, but also with expectation and consistency.

One of the biggest gripes of the 2019 season was all the complaints about how Kitchens was in over his head. They would game plan one way, and then he would call games another way. I remember reading that Monken would complain to other coaches about that. Doing that on a consistent basis breeds lack of confidence.

Looking back to 2018, there was so much infighting and bus-throwing up front, that I don't think he knew what to expect. Williams, for all his faults, did thereafter present a stabilizing element that season to Baker and Kitchens just focused on calling simplified plays suited to our strengths. I think that expectation gave Baker the confidence and growth that he needed (which obviously went away in 2019 for the aforementioned reasons).

Fast forward to 2020 and this year, when you look at Stefanski on Building the Browns, in his press conferences, and how he addresses the team, it is readily apparent the guy is very organized. He created power point presentations which had a theme up front and then delivered concrete points on how he was going to deliver the theme. I think he sets clear expectations and never allows himself to get caught up in the hype or emotions that can easily come to others. He's steady.

Baker showed some struggles early on last season, but Stefanski didn't panic. He stayed the course and was consistent in his messaging to Baker. Halfway through the season, it clicked. Baker improved and Stefanski remained consistent, which helped Baker improve even further. He knew what to expect (barring the COVID disaster of the Jets game).

I expect Baker and the team to continue improving due to both the talent, but also due to the level of consistency in Stefanski. He doesn't air any dirty laundry and protects his players. He sets clear expectations and obviously has a process in place. He's organized, professional, and steady.

In line with your point, I imagine that he has already told Baker about how he wants the offense to grow and evolve this year and set out both long and short term goals so Baker knows what to expect.

So yeah, I expect growth, too.

I don't think coaches should ever confuse game prep with game planning in regards to their players. Sure you have an initial plan. But no coach should allow themselves to say "We have a single plan and we're sticking to it".

What plays you call and what your "plan is" should be a variable based on the conditions of the game. Let's say your plan is to run on your opponent because you think your defense will hold them in check. Then you find yourself down by 17 starting the forth quarter?

Or let's say the plan you had going into the game is being sniffed out by your opponent and you're getting nowhere?

Your "game plan" should always revolve around the conditions in the game at the time. Being stubborn by sticking to a plan that is proving futile is not what a good coach does. I'll draw an analogy here. If your doctor gives you an medication for your illness and your condition keeps getting worse, would you feel him telling you that you should continue taking it without him trying to change medications is the right way to help you? (BTW- I didn't think it was you who might need to see that analogy)

Your team should be aware of the fact that what you are preparing for is your initial plan and that could change at any moment depending on what's going on during the game.

Let's put it this way. If you win the game by 20 points nobody on the team is going to complain about you calling plays you didn't practice during the week.

Nope... at his age he won't get any taller

Yeah... that's if you're winning. We're talking about Freddie's season as HC, so what about if you don't win and look extremely disorganized? Calling plays that you hadn't practiced during the week would probably be viewed as a problem.

Exactly. The outcome of the game is the key as to whether people view it as a problem or not.

We have all seen it many times. If an unexpected play call is made, if it works it is often times seen as a brilliant call that surprised the opponent because they weren't expecting it. If that same play fails the fans will say, "What the hell was that!? Nobody should be making that call"!

I can see what your saying in the general sense, but this thread is about Baker, his progression, and lack thereof in 2019. I think pointing out how 'good call' vs 'bad call' is essentially a coin flip (whether it works out or not) is doing a disservice to how disorganized and in over his head Freddie was.

It wasn't that the playcalls didn't work out and therefore we're going to say they're bad. It was that practices and game management were a mess, and there was evidence of this pretty much everywhere you looked (including calling plays that weren't practiced).

And here, even by the title of the thread itself, It plainly states it is about him making progress from here forward and has nothing to do with 2019.

But some folks just can't stop themselves from taking it there.

Bakers' Running game, scrambling, yards on the ground.

I have seen some attention grabbing headlines asking if Baker can take some monumental leap forward this year.. the dude was pretty darn good last year, especially the 2nd half.

If he plays this season the way he played the second half of last season, it will be great. He doesn't throw for a ton of yards because he doesn't have to, simple as that.

The only thing really missing from his resume are a couple marquee last minute game winning drives. He had some really good late 4th quarter drives last year but the story always ended up being about our defense trying to hold on, not holding on, giving up points, and us needing to recover an onside kick... If he scored with 30 seconds on the clock last year, that was giving them too much time.

I agree ... But I also think it's a little bit of a disservice to Baker. I'm a big fan of PFF... I read an Athletic article this week that highlighted after Week 7 last year Baker was the tip 5th or 7th QB in the NFL based on their analysis. I think even as fans we underestimate the coaching changes and conservative start last year ... And the hellish bad weather. I expect Baker to continue in that top 8 to top 5 QB play. Hoping anyway.

My point at the very beginning of this thread is that Baker wasn't given his due.

By any measure and against some pretty tall odds Mayfield has done exactly what he said he would do before we drafted him.

Don't let anyone tell you that Baker is a problem, or is less then all he said he would be. Sign him we have our guy !

??

His progress at the QB position was stunted for a brief time. Otherwise, he's been fairly consistently improving. It's somewhat relevant. In that the general modus operandi was lack of discipline and prep.

J/C

I am not putting anybody down, and understand it is a topic of discussion, but I for one am tired of all the "is Baker this or is Baker that" talk.

He is a good QB. That's good enough for me.

Sometimes it sounds like we are still marching Brady Quinn out there.

I truly believe that Baker has been sold way short by really all of us.

He came to a team that was 1-31 by any measure a dumpster fire.

In 3 seasons he has the entire NFL world saying the Browns have a real shot at the SB, not only that even here in Cleveland many still believe we should wait an see with Baker.

They say LJ and JA are better that if the draft was today both of those players would be taken ahead of Baker. The part they leave out is both of those players were drafted into way better situations then Baker. Not making excuses here just presenting some facts. I think what they should be saying and there are rumblings along those lines that neither one of those QB's would have done better.

I am trilled with Baker and I think it's time we got his John Handcock on a new deal.

By the looks of his instagram post this morning, his quads have continued to grow as well haha

I heard he added 3 inches as well and his wife is always smiling?

If you say so. But I would suggest you read the initial post of this thread to gain some context on "what this thread is about". The thread started by asking and the title itself asks if "If Baker Will Continue To grow". The questions in the initial post neither say nor mention how what anything in the past has to do with that.

It was all, and I mean all in regards from will he continue to progress from what we saw "last season".

Look, people still talk about Duke Johnson on here so I get it. I guess it's hard to celebrate how improved we were last season, see what the expectations of fans are with their thoughts of building on that moving into the future and leave the misery behind. But it sure would be nice if it were left out of threads that would be much more productive without it.

JMHO

Wow Pitt.

You sound like me just pray we do better that is about all of us can do our reality really is that no matter what we say it's just a bunch of hot air.

So why NOT just enjoy the ride?

It's fun as hell to kick it no question at the end of the day we are just wasting our time, having fun...............

I mean if you get right down to it we could go back to Hue and Gregg Williams in terms of Baker being coached poorly early in his career. 2018 was no less terrible than 2019. We can go back to trading back in the drafrt and drafting lesser talent and letting our FA's walk to weaken the talent pool. We could just sit here and rehash the hell out of all the ingredients that presented a poor product on the field in years past. Then we'll hear a list of reasons why we had to do that to get to where we are now. It's a vicious cycle.

God knows it's been done over and over and over on here to the point it's like beating a dead horse.

But once he was well coached and given the proper supporting cast to succeed, he seized on the opportunity. We had what I saw as a great season last year and spent this off season by keeping our O in tact and making heavy investments in the D. For me that's cause for excitement.

Most sportscasters and commentators are taking Baker's entire NFL body of work into account in what they're saying and predicting. Even those who are not, most of them aren't taking into account that last year, once again, was the third time he started the season learning a new system.

They don't seem to have a grasp on the fact he was trying to get to a comfort level to start out the season. As I've said before, learning the plays is only half the battle. Getting to the point that things become second nature to you is an entirely different matter.

All one has to do is look at his performance in the second half of the season compared to the first half of the season to understand what I'm saying here. But I don't even think that's the story of what we have yet to see. I do not believe for a second that Stefnaski's entire playbook was opened up last year.

Stefnaski is a smart coach. I mean how refreshing is that, right? And IMO he wasn't going to try and overwhelm Baker in his first season as HC. He wanted Baker to get to that comfort level where he was able to perform to his talent. I think this season we will see more wrinkles and variety in the play calling. I think there's a lot more in Stefnski's bag of tricks for this season.

Yes.

I am honestly baffled how I can agree that the only point Baker did NOT improve/grow was when our HC had zero control or organization in place to foster said growth... and you end up tying that to the Duke Johnson funeral march group.

dawglover mentioned how Freddie's handling of many different things presented a poor environment for a young QB to grow, and cited specific examples. You latched onto one example and went on a tangent about being flexible in-game. I mentioned the original thread topic, and you responded with "some folks just can't stop from taking it there"... as if looking at the year before last is some sort of taboo action.

I also said, "If you say so".

We have a difference of opinion. You said the "thread" had something to do with 2019. The thread doesn't. It wasn't about that at all. It was about Baker's progress moving forward. Yes there was a "comment" about Hue.

I was trying to keep the thread on track. So how far back should we go to "re track"? Hue and Gregg Williams? Because they were Baker's coaches in 2018. Should we speak about the terrible WR's other than Landry in 2018?

I mean if we're going to go down the rabbit hole, why stop at Freddie?

Your ability to make a compelling argument to a conversation nobody but yourself is having is nothing short of art. I am in awe.

Well what about 2018? That season doesn't count? I mean that was only his rookie year when the foundation of a young NFL QB is supposed to be instilled in him. No? No comment about those coaches? Why would 2019 count more than 2018?

What about it, Pit? You're the only person that has mentioned Hue in this thread. If you wanna rehash that, go ahead.

Baker exceeded expectations in his rookie year, and took a step back in 2019. It's my (and others) estimation that that lack of growth is more due to the environment he was operating in as well as Baker's reported lax off-season preparation.

Do you disagree with the argument that the only time Baker hasn't improved/progressed was when the coaching staff in place was a dumpster fire, and in part because of that we can expect him to continue to improve? Because that's really the only point of all my posts in this thread.

They did so great with Baker that both Hue and Gregg Williams never returned as HC. And improved from what? He had never taken an NFL snap before 2018.

You can't say a rookie "improved" from the prior season when he has no history of play in the NFL prior to gauge it upon. Did the "team" play better for Williams than Hue? Yes they did. But that was the entire team. Obviously he didn't do nearly enough.

If you want to re-hash Hue/Williams, go ahead. I'm talking about Baker.

I didn't say he improved his rookie year. I said he exceeded expectations. Don't put words in my mouth.

Okay. You just to Freddie then.

The Knuckle ball:
There may be times in the NFL game when the situation presents itself, that, in order to beat a defense's anticipated reaction and attempts to intercept normal passes at normal speeds,
where throwing a lame duck, floating, slow arriving, knuckle ball of a pass, Intentionally, is the best option.

I've seen the steelers, appear to throw these as planned, pre snap, known commodities, twice.

I think the Browns should incorporate it. If just one in 200 attempts, whenever called for.
Just a high arching arrives like a punt, slow, up for grabs pass,
or a slow arriving wobbler.
If the offense knows it is coming pre-snap, it can make all the difference.

Mayfield is Cleveland's QB.

Screw what Mass Media thinks!

Baker looked amazing today. He is our Franchise QB.

He played really well. Some of those throws were ridiculous.

The hype video isn't my cup of tea (talking about how talk is cheap... lol), but hey whatever works for him.

I like Baker but that last pass he should have just thrown it to the sideline or have taken the sack, we were fighting the clock not so much the yardage so there was no need to force the throw.

Your posts scare me.

I haven't heard Baker's comments yet so I don't know for sure but I think he was trying to throw it away when he got tripped. That looked like it caused him to not get all of it on the throw.

He might have been but he could have just thrown it to the sideline near him instead of throwing it upfield where the defenders were. In that situation don't force it, take the loss in either the sack or penalty and loss of down due to no receiver in the area and live to play another down.

it looked like he was throwing it away and he didn't have enough zip on it. I think he had to throw it past the los because he was was in the tackle box.

I think he was already in the process of throwing before he lost balance and it was too late to correct it. I'm sure he wishes he had that one back but it looked to me like he was beginning his delivery as he went down. After watching how well he played all day it's hard for me to fathom he actually threw that ball intentionally.

He was throwing it away, and got grabbed by the ankle enough that it threw him off.

Overall Baker played great.. and I do think he was trying to throw the ball away when he got tripped up from behind...

The sequence I was disappointed in was at the end of the first half.. we had 1st and 10 from the 36 with :49 seconds and two timeouts... plenty of time to run 5 or 6 more plays (or more).. we were on the very edge of FG range.. Baker threw 1 short pass, then 2 into the endzone. Third one was a penalty so move it back, then the sack.

We had more than enough time to get into GOOD FG range before we took shots at the endzone. Heck, we had time to run the ball if we wanted to.. So whether it was the play calling or the choice Baker made in where to go with the ball, I thought that was a big missed opportunity to increase our lead.

Kind of did the same thing on the next to last drive on 3rd and 6, tried a very difficult pass 25 yards downfield to Schwartz when what we needed was 7 yards and move the chains..

were all the short passes covered? I don't know. I'd have to think if Jarvis was open he would have gotten the ball

Just went back and rewatched those plays.. first down he threw it away, second down we had 3 guys run short routes, two were covered, Landry was pretty open for a 6 or 7 yard gain and could have gotten out of bounds. Third down, we had 4 guys run very deep routes and the only guy underneath was Hunt as the outlet and he was covered.

Like I said, poor play calling, poor execution, some of both, not blaming it all on Baker.. I just thought it was a bad sequence when what we needed was to run 3 plays to try to get another first down to make it a manageable FG and get us closer to the endzone. And we still would have had 30 seconds and maybe a timeout.

I don't really disagree with you if your game plan is to be conservative and safe. On the other hand if your game plan is to be aggressive and attacking, you go for the throat. As many times as we went for it on fourth down I think the game plan on O was to be aggressive and attack.

I tend to think more in the same terms you do in such a situation. But I can also see why Stefanski might take the play calling approach he did.

Baker may have been trying to throw it away but with him being under pressure he should have just thrown it to the sideline, no need to throw it near a receiver cause your gonna lose the down anyways so just take the penalty instead of taking a chance of it getting intercepted, which is what happened. Live to play another down.

That's if you believe he wasn't already in the process of throwing the ball as he was going down. I do not believe that.

He was under pressure and the defender grabs his ankles and while going down he throws it at Bryant who was double covered. Just chuck it into the ground.

Whatever you think. We just saw the play differently. The way I saw it he had already entered his throwing motion and it was too late for what you are suggesting.

This is how I saw it also.

J/C

In regards to the INT, I think he was definitely throwing it away and his foot got grabbed. Really bad luck

He was hit while throwing.

His intent as stated by him was to throw it out of bounds.

Credit needs to go to the rusher that hit his legs.

It doesn't matter if he was hit while he was throwing or not he threw the ball away by throwing it 15 yards down field towards a teammate who was double covered when he could have thrown it 5 yards to an empty sideline.

Let me ask you this. How long would it take a human being in the motion of throwing to react and change their delivery as they're being hit? Hell, QB's throw the ball away 30 and 40 yards down the field all the time. I have no idea why you keep harping on that part.

Baker was definitely trying to throw the ball out, but the defender got his foot just in time.

The way the drive was going, in the future baker will know just to eat the sack. We would’ve been fine.

Oh well. Baker had a great game otherwise.

My point exactly either take the sack or make damn sure your throw is going out of bounds. Baker threw the pass right at his teammate who was double covered when he should have been just throwing it to the open sideline.

If he had thrown it toward the empty sideline to start with he wouldn't have had to change his throwing motion and his being hit wouldn't have mattered. Even if he was trying to throw it away why would you throw it straight towards a teammate that was double covered in the first place? and Yes QBs do throw the ball away 30-40 yds downfield but they make sure the ball is well out of play.

Baker probably had too many Intentional Grounding calls last year due to throwing short of the line of scrimmage. He's probably paranoid to throw short out of bounds...just my humble opinion.

Practice more then. You wouldn't see Mahomes make that boneheaded throw.

I've seen so many excuses, the fact of the matter is that Baker blew it.

And that's OK, as long as he rebounds and never does it again.

To be fair Mahomes DID get hit with Ineligible man downfield when he tried to throw it i the dirt 5 yards in front of him...

Good job this is an individual sport and results rest with the one person, and things like Defense and fumbles and muffed punts don't play a part in the result ... good job Baker's first half performance that got us a (i think) 12 point lead don't matter. Good job Joe Woods performance and scheme have no impact coz his job is safe for the season now. Phew.

I guess Chubb has been relegated from elite RB to all-so-ran because he fumbled too? Are posters posting that too?

Baker gets tight with the game on the line and a lot at stake. It started with the short armed throw to Njoku on the previous drive and continued on the last drive. No one in America thought Baker was going to bring the Browns back on that drive and they were right. And there in lies the problem.

I think Baker is a really good QB, maybe even great,, and I am happy to have him. I think he is overly criticized in the media, and I think the Browns need to extend him. The Browns will win a lot of games with Baker and should be a contender for years. But in order to be the last team standing at the end of the year, your QB has to deliver when it matters most. This is the way the NFL works. It doesn't matter how good the rest of your team is or what has happened in the game up to that point. I went back and looked at all of Baker's games since his rookie year. He just really hasn't had a signature come from behind win against a premium opponent. Am I the only one that finds this concerning?

And I'm talking about this through the context of winning Super Bowls, not just winning games. Baker is plenty good to win games with. Yesterday he proved the Tannenbaums and Bart Scotts of the world right. He can't put the team on his shoulders.

I hope this changes and this will no longer be the narrative. But in my opinion this narrative is warranted.

Hater

No one in America thought he'd bring them back!! I bet 95% of America plus 99% of the stadium thought they'd score the winning TD. They didn't punt till the 4th Quarter and scored a TD in every drive except the end of half. Seriously!!!

I can't testify to what anybody else in America thought... Personally, I didn't know if we would score or not, but I had full confidence that we would get down close enough to have a couple good shots at it.

RISHUZ,

I'm right there with every word. If that INT happens on 4th down, with Baker just trying to make something happen, no criticism. But that was 1st down. No need to hold the ball so long waiting for an opening. Mark down situational awareness as an area to grow.

J/c

I had little doubt that we wouldn’t score a TD. I was hoping beyond hope, but figured we wouldn’t. I thought the game was toast after the botched punt. Really, I thought t was over with Chubb’s fumble

He was NOT throwing it away! Very concerning!

Stefanski said even though Baker Mayfield was trying to throw the ball away at the end of the game, he can’t throw a pick in that situation, with 1:09 left and the game on the line.

“He needs to find an incompletion there,’’ Stefanski said.

He said Mayfield played well and had his ups and downs, but must protect the ball in that crucial situation.

j/c

People have gone frickin' crazy because Baker was hit as he was throwing the ball away. They sound like a child who had his candy taken from them. It's pure insanity.

That's your take - It's been your predisposition to judge Baker in the harshest light since he came into the NFL. That's up to you, no problem.

I disagree. He played a good game, was pretty spectacular with his execution for most of the game against a Superbowl favorite ... the throw to Njoku was soft because it was a busted play and who knows what or how Njoku was going to run ... even Romo called that a smart throw to take no chance on an int. The actual interception - you can keep your view and you can see what you want. Fact is this is Baker's first season with the same OC, HC in place. I don't think Baker is a game manager, he's not an Andy Dalton or some average QB that can win a few games but not do it when it matters most ... I've seen more than enough to know he's the best QB we've had since Bernie, his potential is still uncapped and I expect him to grow. I don't blame Baker for a soft D, a fumble or a muffed punt ... all of which were significantly more impactful to the loss than Baker's play.

The unfair reality is that a good amount of his excellent play on Sunday is overshadowed by his last INT. It sucks, but that's just the reality of the position he plays at the pro level.

That said, he did have a very good game. We kept pace with the most potent offense in the league without a ton of help from our D. The offense can't hand the ball over to the likes of Mahommes late in the game and expect to win, but along the same lines the D has to take the ball away and get the O ahead on possessions.

I completely disagree with you.

Let me ask a different question "if" Chubb does not fumble, and Gillan does not drop a snap right to him; and the Browns win.

What is your narrative with Baker's same stats including an int.

I know it is hypothetical.

Baker is no less the player because of that int. I don't care how you look at it. You don't define a player in his fourth year playing the first game of the season.

We don't have a crystal ball. Baker is going to play a lot more football games. His legacy is still to be written.

Mike Tannen-bum is completely wrong. Just like he was with Mark Sanchez and why he has no GM job.

Bart Scott is obviously a Raven homer.

To make your assessment of at this stage is not looking at this in the correct light.

Hang on this year and see what happens.

If Baker fails and is the reason for whatever happens. I will call him out for his failure.

MGH,

I don't think most of what you said is offbase, although the Njoku throw was just bad. Whatever, it's 1 incompletion. Not a huge deal, other than the timing...he does that in the 1st quarter instead of the 4th, we don't even remember it.

As for the pick, he's just got to keep getting better at deciding when to extend plays, for how long, and when to just take the loss and live another down. He's improved dramatically in that regard from 2018-2019, but it showed up on that pick. 1st down...clock running...if it's not there, move on.

Finally, I would like to say that something I though about while watching the Ravens-Raiders game last night. Baker is SOOO much more efficient and accurate than most QBs. We all know Lamar is a subpar passer, but Carr had so many just awful throws and wasted plays. Baker doesn't do that. It is actually really frustrating to have a guy that is way better than most starting QBs for 57 minutes, but walks away from the game with a L because his mistakes come at the worst time. If he can just play a cleaner, smarter game in those big moments, he'll go from leading a perrenial playoff team to a perrenial SB contender.

I don't see fingers to point honestly. I think the team wins and loses games if everyone had done a bit more or had played a bit harder or a break had gone the Browns way instead of all going KC's way we walk away the winners.

Still we outplayed them but in a game like this it takes 60 minutes of effort and discipline and focus. I trust the coaches and players on this team I believe they will get this fixed it won't happen again.

The season is just getting started it would have been great to get a win in the can but will fight back 16-1 is still viable............

Judgment is part of that growth for BM though, and for Ski as play caller. We don't need to push it harder say with a 30-yard pass when we need six. Like NBA players chasing three's and missing them way too often, when possessions count even with less scoring.

The first half was magic. The second was a deja vu nightmare. Again.

Will Baker Continue to Grow ?

He could use about 4 more inches to see over the taller Defensive players.

How good is Baker?

Stat of the Game:

Baker Mayfield: 0 receptions for 11 yards.

Like Chuck Norris, he doesn't even need a reception to get receiving yards as a receiver.


and, yes, that's for real.

I don't think this is the relevant question. The question is can Baker put the team on his shoulders against the best when it matters most. The NFL is all about the QB and the QB playing their best when it matters most. If you can summarize the difference between winning and losing in the NFL to one thing, it's that.



I am not defining him as a finished product and even said I hope this narrative changes.



I agree but until then this is the reality of where we are at.

Here are some facts. I don't believe these are subjective statements --

--Out of all of Baker's drives, his last two were the worst.

--Baker played better in the beginning of the game than he did at the end.

--Baker had a chance to lead the Browns on a game winning drive and threw an interception.

--In 3+ seasons Baker doesn't have a come from behind win against a quality opponent.

--Jarvis said Baker addressed the team after the game to take ownership of his play at the end of the game.

--The two fumbles were unfortunate and lead to the loss. They don't have anything to do with the way Baker played those last two drives.

And here's an interesting opinion --

Stefanski's offense is very emasculating to a QB. Run heavy and playing from in front a lot, Baker doesn't get much practice to come from behind. Nevertheless he's just a much better quarterback with the lead than when trailing. I don't think the Browns will ever win a Super Bowl unless that changes. Think Jimmy G a couple years ago. One long bomb and he's a Super Bowl champ. He didn't make plays, Mahomes did. Some got it, some don't.

I hope this isn't always the case.

The Raiders' Derek Carr threw 2 passes and the Raiders were in Fg position and made a long Field goal. Week 1 MNF, vs. the Ravens. To tie and force OT.
Baker, and the offense the Browns have him in, don't seem to have this in their arsenal. It's either one play broken for the big gain, or it's 6 or more plays.
And on a long field goal the Browns don't feel dominant yet.

Good lord. We're comparing Baker to Derek Carr in an unfavorable light?

I'll take Baker every day and twice on Sunday over Carr and most other QB's in the NFL.

** 60% completion % with a pick against the Ravens without their #1 CB and what looked like a pretty ordinary D.

Sometimes the best play you can call is the play your opponents least expect.

I agree with your overall point that his late-game play is ultimately going to decide his ceiling, but this is specifically false.

Comeback/go-ahead wins vs. quality teams:

1. Ravens#1 in 2018
2. Panthers 2018
3. Bills 2019

Losses:

1. Ravens 2018
2. Rams 2019
3. Seahawks 2019
4. Ravens#2 2020
5. Chiefs 2020
6. Chiefs 2021

I mean, we could say that Ravens#2 doesn't count because he brought his team back multiple times in the 4th quarter...just didn't have the ball last. But leaving qualifiers out, 3-6 seems about right. And the fact that he has had 0 comeback Ws against quality teams in Stefanski's tenure makes it seem worse than it is, but it isn't never.

I disagree.

He did have a chance and it ended in a int.

Some credit has to go to the defensive player who tackled him.

Opportunities are a apart of the equation. He has won games late. You do not hand pick against who and the time it happens.

The reality is this is year four game one.

We all what has happened to get to this point.

I don't buy he is better with the lead than trailing.

You just play the game. He is the same quarterback who threw the pass to DPJ to win the Bengal game with 8 seconds left.

IMO you are making a knee jerk reaction on one play.

Aaron Rodgers stunk Sunday. That game will not knock him from the HOF.

You are trying to peg Baker as being a certain type of quarterback. Like those that say "system quarterback or game manager."

Every quarterback is a system quarterback and game manager.

Baker is a young quaterback begining his fourth year. He led the team to the playoffs last year and the team won a playoff game.

His record in college and NFL tell his story.

That single game does not.

He's a hater.

Always has been, always will be. Repeats the same crap over and over again regarding Baker.

Always that. Hindsight is a heady thing. Perfect judgment is a certainty. We have killed drives with short runs and dialing up long passes. I would suggest that your best play, most direct play, shortest play, simplest play can also be well recommended depending on down and distance. Conversely, something really exotic on the goal line, though "least expected", may not be what is best for down and distance. Arguments of convenience seem to be available.

We are not done yet. We have some winning to do.

In addition:

"They claimed Mayfield never will lead a game-winning drive, even though he has 6 in his first 3 seasons.

He had 2 game-winning drives last season in only 3 opportunities.

Critics complain he had no touchdown passes, as if his 321 passing yards played no part in Cleveland’s 4 rushing TDs.

Maybe Mayfield should have thrown that last one away earlier, but one play won’t kill the Browns 2021 playoff run."

I would certainly agree that it works both ways. You can call the predictable play as you seem to suggest and it can work. But when you do this the defense is ready and waiting for that play. Or you can call a far less predictable play which they aren't expecting or prepared for.

It seems to me that we agree either will work and only hindsight when you know how it worked out can you say, "But we should have done X".

j/c

When you have an agenda and it gets smashed.



#facts

Apparently #factsdontmatter applies to football too.

on the final play of the first half of the Browns at Chiefs game in week #1. The Browns threw a pass from their own 42 line of scrimmage, a short screen with blockers out front, it ended up a 47 yard pass downed at the chiefs 11 for a first down, and end of the half.
Part way through the pass, the ball was latteraled from whoever caught it, to Mayfield who then continued running forward and lateraled, iirc, near the end of the play to another, who was downed.

That would provide the 11 yards, and no catch.
If I hadn't remembered that, I would have no idea how it was possible.

That play was a successful conversion of a 4th and 31.

Really.

I don't bother any more to even read.

Have no idea what the point is??

'It takes a village': How Browns QB Baker Mayfield remade his body after a disastrous 2019

https://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/28732


BEREA, Ohio -- Two years ago, on Monday Night Football against the San Francisco 49ers, Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield tried to escape the pocket to heave a pass downfield. But as he lumbered to his right, Nick Bosa easily tracked him from behind to force him into an intentional grounding penalty.

Bosa, an Ohio State alum, then rubbed in the domination, mimicking Mayfield’s famous 2017 flag plant in Ohio Stadium to celebrate the big play. Just as the flag plant following the win over the Buckeyes defined Mayfield’s brash college career at Oklahoma, Bosa’s mocking of it underscored the Browns quarterback’s struggles in 2019.

That season, Mayfield was consistently unable to evade the rush to deliver completions. Though his offensive line was of little help, Mayfield was sacked 40 times, second-most in the AFC. He also threw 21 interceptions. His footwork was a mess, and he couldn’t get set up quickly enough to aim passes at open receivers.

Mayfield knew he needed a change. More specifically, a physical transformation, which would require an overhaul of his offseason regimen and daily eating habits. He said then he felt too slow and too heavy. And, among other reasons, his performance suffered.

A year and a half later, after a drastic recommitment to eating smarter and exercising harder, Mayfield is in the best shape of his career.

He’s reduced his body fat from 18 to 11%. He lost 14 pounds despite adding 4 pounds of muscle, and now weighs 214, which is lighter than what his listed weight was at Oklahoma. He can do almost twice as many pushups in one stint as before (45 from 25). And he’s hit new personal highs in everything from squats to the vertical jump.

His performance on the field has taken a leap as well. Mayfield finished the 2020 season in the top 10 in QBR (65.5) while guiding the Browns to the postseason for the first time since 2002. He cut his interception total down to eight and took only 26 sacks, thanks in part to a far better offensive line.

Cleveland’s opening drive in Sunday’s Week 1 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs -- a game in which he went toe-to-toe with 2019 MVP Patrick Mahomes -- was the most recent example of how far Mayfield has come.

He danced away from an edge rusher to dump off a completion to tight end Austin Hooper; juked through pressure to reel off a 7-yard run; then, rolling left, effortlessly flipped his hips around to deliver a 22-yard strike to Anthony Schwartz across the field on a third down, setting up an eventual Browns touchdown.

The results of his offseason regimen are clear to see. Yet for all the effort he’s put in and discipline he’s maintained, Mayfield didn’t get to this point on his own. Strength coach C.J. McFarland, nutritionist Angie Asche, his brother -- and workout partner -- Matt, and wife, Emily, have all played leading roles in his success story.

“It definitely takes a village, there’s no doubt about that,” Mayfield said last week. “C.J. has been great for my offseason routine, and Angie, dietwise, has been unbelievable, as well. ... Going to workouts with your brother every morning in the offseason has been pretty fun. And then coming home and having a home-cooked meal is pretty nice, too.

“I’ve never been in it by myself.”

'It’s definitely noticeable'
After the 2019 season, Matt, Baker’s older brother, connected him with McFarland, then a strength coach in Austin, Texas, and former world-champion powerlifter. These past two offseasons, the Mayfield brothers met at McFarland’s gym four mornings a week for grueling two-hour workouts.

“I was looking for a place to work out, but more importantly, Baker was going to be looking for a place to work out,” said Matt, who’d heard about McFarland through a friend. “We realized pretty quickly C.J. knew what the hell he was doing.”

Baker and his brother began training at McFarland’s gym in early June 2020. Their mornings featured a focus on powerlifting to strengthen Baker’s core. Lower-body lifts took place Mondays and Fridays, with upper-body work coming Tuesdays and Thursdays. McFarland also designed lifts specifically around protecting Baker’s right throwing shoulder. Dumbbell rows supplanted bench press, redistributing stress away from the shoulder. To strengthen and stabilize it, McFarland had Baker do single-arm dumbbell presses and a multitude of resistance-band exercises.

Additionally, McFarland tailored the conditioning to mimic a football play, with quick bursts lasting up to 10 seconds, followed by 30 seconds of rest.

“That would be him going back to the huddle, calling the play, getting set again,” McFarland said.

In his eighth week of working with McFarland, Baker Mayfield flew to Cleveland for some commercial shoots before training camp.

“One of the first things he told me was that when he got back to Cleveland, he was smoking everybody in the conditioning test and doing extremely well,” McFarland said. “I know from that he felt really good and peaked perfectly in time for the preseason.”

Mayfield responded with his bounce-back year in 2020, and says he feels even better in 2021, following 16 more weeks training with McFarland this past offseason.

“I try not to tell him how much better he looks, because obviously I don't want to add to his ego,” joked McFarland, who’s since taken an internship on the LSU strength staff, meaning the Mayfield brothers will need a new place to train next offseason. “But he’s a ton stronger and more powerful than he was last season.”

Mayfield says he can feel that difference, especially when making sudden, explosive actions. He also feels more efficient with his movement within the pocket, which has continued to sharpen his throwing mechanics and footwork.

“It’s definitely noticeable,” Matt Mayfield said, comparing his brother’s shape to just last season.

“The explosiveness, you saw some of it last year, you’re going to see even more of it this year.”

'The diet just becomes your lifestyle'
Baker Mayfield played the 2019 season at the heaviest weight of his career. Some of that was by design. But some of it was not. He had gotten married that summer, and various injuries prevented him from conditioning frequently once the season started. Playing heavy messed with his footwork and sapped his ability to escape the pocket.

When he started training with McFarland in 2020, Mayfield weighed over 227 pounds.

Browns coach Kevin Stefanski and offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt challenged him to get lighter over the offseason. That prompted his wife, Emily, to introduce him to Asche, a college friend of hers from the University of Nebraska.

Asche gave Mayfield a seven-page assessment to complete and examined his bloodwork to determine whether there were any deficiencies in his diet. From there, she formulated a plan to improve his body composition.

“There weren’t things in his diet like quinoa or sweet potatoes, so I just tried to add a lot more nourishing foods, to get more of those micronutrients and things like vitamins and minerals, things that were going to aid in recovery,” Asche said.

“But really, it was just understanding portioning for him. He can still have his Mexican food, he can still have tequila every now and then. It’s really the portion size that is going to make or break those body-composition goals.”

As Asche reconstructed Mayfield's diet, it was Emily who enforced it, preparing the meals, especially the dinners, according to Asche’s specifications and Mayfield's tastes.

“He's not a big fish guy,” Asche said. “Salmon is not something I ever put on any of the weekly meal plans.”

Mayfield, however, can tolerate cod. Stir-fried vegetables and honey chicken thighs have become hits in the Mayfield household. Asche also regularly includes Mexican dishes like burrito bowls in the plan to satisfy his cravings.

“After a while, the diet just becomes your lifestyle,” Asche said. “It’s something that he just does now.”

'That's the kind of performance you get'
Flashing his newfound fluidity on the move, Mayfield finished 5-for-5 passing for 94 yards on play-action throws, and 5-for-5 for 101 yards against the blitz in Cleveland’s dazzling first half against the Chiefs.

“He’s done an outstanding job of getting his body ready,” Van Pelt said. “He did it last year as well. And it’s showing up in his quickness ... the footwork. He’s made leaps in that way, especially under center with what we ask him to do in the dropback game. He’s made big strides.”

Despite the eventual loss to Kansas City, the Browns showed they have the potential to hang with the NFL’s best. Those little things that have led to Mayfield's new body are one big reason.

“When you put together all of the components -- the training, eating properly, sleeping properly,” McFarland said, “that’s what makes the Cleveland Browns go back to the playoffs for the first time in two decades.

“When you put the entire thing together, the way Baker has, that’s the kind of performance you get.”

That's because they are disgusting.

BONEFISH,

I don't get how so many of you are missing the obvious. Baker will continue to be characterized as a guy that cannot put the team on his back, or even as a "choker," until he starts winning more games in the 4th quarter. It's a plain fact. No use whining about it.

Cannot bring Rogers into this...it makes you look silly right now. Once Baker has MVPs and SB wins under his belt, he will be given leeway. And guess what, if/when that happens, the media and NFL fans will revise their view of his history and praise him. But not until then. The NFL is "what have you done for me lately," and his last 3 chances for comeback wins against quality teams, he has come up short. Those are the facts. And until he starts winning them at a good clip, or has a signature moment that everyone is watching, where he drives to win the AFCC or SB, the narrative will not change. In the meantime, we just have to quietly accept it and be happy he is our QB.

I do not rely on the narrative of others.

And I am glad he is the quarterback of the Browns.

Baker will continue to be characterized negatively by everyone that keeps moving goalposts.

By your own words, if he lights it up and puts away teams before we even get to the 4th Qtr, folks will STILL label him as a "choker" and claim he cannot put the team on his back.

Basically, it will never be enough, and that's fine.. but, damn, just admit it.

Yep. "Putting a team on your back" is one of those undefined terms that results in the goalpost-moving you described.

The term is NOT limited to 4th Q comebacks. It can be something that happens throughout the game...when a QB does things throughout the game to keep his team in winning position. It does not HAVE to be flashy or last-miunte-ish to exist.

Well it's kind of hard for any QB to put a fumble by your RB and a botched punt attempt on his own back. But you know how that works around here from some people.

I've been about as positive as the most positive of Baker Mayfields' upside as anyone who posts, since his final year at Okla. so there isn't a moving goalpost to open my eyes.
I've overlooked the, the fumbling type things on 4th and one, or the propensity to sometimes throw passes that looked just like that final pass last week, even when some of those passes did NOT end up interceptions.
All I think is, we should recognize he sometimes does that.

He can throw 6 touchdowns in a half. And he can do it on occasion, not just once in a career, and then, he can go on a streak, of maybe 5 games where, because of that he's unstoppable, (or they are unstoppable with him,)
But, ... If the game ended at halftime Baker could go 30-0 and the Browns would be double super bowl champions. But that other half, sometimes other 3 quarters of game time, the other team knows what they have to score to come back.
And the Browns defense against the pass, well, it's like playing scratchoff lottery tickets. (maybe an interception, maybe a stop, probably a touchdown.)

If They could ever sting together, about 7 games, made up of ONLY how they play in those great first halves/(half's) of games,
at the right time of the season,

Then they'd not only win the Super Bowl, they'd win every playoff game 55-48, because that's what they do.
pending not giving up that onside kick by the other team, in the final minutes.

While we're at it. That reminds me. The Buccaneers, the Raiders, the Chiefs, the Ravens' the Steelers!,often the Bills
There is a recipe or gameplan they seem to have, where, they just absorb all the punches, and mid to late game, make a play on the defense, and then it's over, like a predator on food stuff.

I mean - if you want to be factual about it instead of emotional and non-sensical:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm

2 less career 4th Q comebacks than Deshaun Watson - in 1 less season and playing for a way worse team.

2 less than Josh Allen - playing on a team with virtually no D last year.

4 more than Lamar Jackson ....

Move the goal posts some more and maybe your take won't look so jaundiced.

Lot of butthurt here, but it's all good. I've said my piece, and my mind is only changing based on game results.

Not based on performance. I see...

J/C - Considering the absolute murderous mess we have made of the QB position for near on two decades, I find the criticism of Mayfield absolutely bemusing. He's a really good player at a position where it is - see last 20 years - hard to find a good player. Will he get us over the line? Who knows? However, like many of you, I still feel 1-31, Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, Hue Jackson because - hellloooooo - it was only a few seasons ago! The turn around is frankly astounding. I'll take some really nice, competitive football with a chance at posteason football for 500 please.

Certainly not based on stats - provided - or maybe the comebacks don't count unless they are on the 3rd Sunday of a month? Maybe that'll be the new set of goal posts?

100% Agree. It doesn't matter how we Baker fans feel, the talking heads will have their whipping boy until Baker shuts them up. They just bash him because it makes headlines, where bashing the likes of Big Ben, Aron Rodgers, Urban Meyer, ect. don't at this point.

I didn't know we started counting some posters as talking heads. But okay.

Well, you'll get over the butthurt. It takes time. Stay strong, man.

Since you've already been given game results, I have to assume that it isn't actually game results you're looking for, though.

Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in! L

PRPL & PIT,

I'm the one that provided the results that he's 3-6 against "quality" teams, none since 2019, in those comeback chances. Our QB is very good and light-years better than anything we've had (why do we even need to compare him to garbage?), but he happens to be 3-6 in these close games against good teams. Those are results that (I assume) none of us want to continue. Including Baker and Stefanski, if you'll listen to their pressers.

MGH,

I agree with you that it is unfair to automatically discount the Cincy games or the Skins game (or other 4th qtr comebacks that are slipping my mind at the moment) just because they aren't winning teams. That is a true case of moving the goalposts, because once you're in the spot, the pressure to go down and score is the same. But it is what it is, and life is unfair. That is how the NFL works...you get credit only when leave the doubters nothing to say.

Finally, I would be interested to hear what all of you have to say about Lamar and his posteseason performance narrative. It's the exact same situation. Will you all admit that is an unfair characterization of Lamar's career, but that until he consistently wins in the playoffs, people will keep on with that talk?

GC. Baker could:
Emotions in check, more cerebral, Game situational awareness to get better. Ten scoring drives in a row, same execution up 15 points or no matter the score, same uregnecy to score, same attack rate every drive. Every quarter, every possession looking the same. Every opponent, no ups, no downs, execute, set up, score.

Two Bulls! stood at the top of a hill, overlooking the herd of cows. The young bull said: "Let's run down there and get one of those Cows!!"

and the Old Bull said, No, let's walk down there, and get all of them."

I've stayed out of this convo until now, but I just gotta interject something here.



Thank You.

CLE won 11 reg season games (and one playoff game) last year.
80% of that team's scoring opportunities ran through Player #6.

I now rest my case, because You just made my case.

People get to rag on Baker and get to be wrong too. Most of us couldn't stand up for more then a minute to what NFL players must endure.

The one thing I know is next week and the week after or until Baker doesn't get it done when the fan thinks he should they will rag on him, it's what fans do. Reason has NOTHING to do with it. When we beat the snot out of Houston they will love him again, that's how it works always has likely always will.

It's a sign of fandom gone sideways.

Rogers won MVP last year think there aren't fans unhinged over his performance on Sunday? There is only one known cure, WIN!

Well as a fan I am damn glad to have Baker as my QB. It irks me (when it shouldn't) that "fans" and media are fickle and judge him in the harshest light. No QB is perfect - even the likes of Manning, Brady and Mahomes make/made bad decisions and bad throws - and they are as close to the top of 'absolute best' I have seen play. They all played on better teams than Baker has up till this season ... and maybe their fans went bat chit crazy after a loss to a top team where there was a bad throw ... but I doubt it was anything like Baker gets subjected to. As others pointed out - Baker creates strong emotions in people and they love to hate him. Love to limit the praise he receives. Love to critique every bad throw in ways that they don't do to other QB's. I still 100% believe there are many Buckeye fans that still hold a great deal of hate in their heart for Baker no matter what he does in a Browns uniform.

And it often seems to come wrapped up in a disingenuous rationale of "All I'm saying is if he's going to take us to a Super Bowl these are things that .... ". Which I think is poppycock, because there is a LITANY of issues and challenges Baker has faced since joining the 1-31 Browns as a rookie that no other QB has ever had to face in the start of their NFL career. I mean the list is long and old, but some of the highlights: Not practicing AT ALL with the first team before being thrust into a starting role ... having the worst HC in the history of the NFL his rookie year, only for him to be replaced by an even worse influence in Freddy in year 2. Guess I'll leave it there - Baker looks good in 1 game of this season, the first with the same HC and OC and playbook in his career. I'll repeat I am ecstatic Baker is our QB and believe great things lie in his and the Browns future.

Yep. From both Browns fans and non-Browns fans.

I am a big time believer in Baker from the get go...but I agree with this statement. He will always be scrutinized until he starts winning those games.

I am so po'd cause he was going to do just that and get into ESPN fame with a last second ending with us scoring. I know the kid has it and his time will come - for me and I've seen a lot of QBs, its not a matter of WILL it happen just a matter of WHEN...right now Couch had more game ending winning drives than Baker but who is the better QB...no doubt Baker.

His time will come and it will happen this year but mark you this.

It will be said...oh do it against a top Defense as for some reason I remember Baker winning one against the Bengals who were playing great against our sucky D as was Baker against theirs. All forget that and what I saw was a great QB playing top notch against us Burrows maybe best game. Baker came back to win that one.

Not sure if there were more. Once our run game took over the open no huddle pass game was shut down.

jmho we got a great one right now playing Good football and some of you (undedrstandably) need to see that great before believing in that Greatness. Me, I saw his game prior and saw how he overcame adversity and had all against him and he prevailed.

Walk on and walk on going from QB#5 to starter... The kid is accurate and sometimes that works against him as he was sure and confident he was going to make a play as he escaped to his left - not knowing there was a defender able to dive at his legs and make an ankle swipe right at the moment of his throw...because he has that ability he would not have been looking to make a play but quite franklly I don''t want that QB not in that moment not in a game winning drive. I want a QB to hold onto that ball last second and make it happen.

Just terrible timing but his and our day will come! Quite frankly the teams that we would make that drive easily are teams we will have more than a 2 score lead in that 4th qtr.

jmho

This is easy for me to say because I'm really not into college football at all, so to be in and among the OSU-obsessed (many of which have no ties to the school other than residing in the same state) can get surreal.

EO,

Thank you, and I agree with what you said. I'm only like 90% on whether its a matter of WHEN, not IF, but it's 90%, and people here act like this is some massive and unjustified reservation.

And part of the reason I think about this is that, although I know the media is there for eyes and ears, not for accuracy, I really enjoy the NFL discussion between games. And it is disappointing to know that over the next several weeks, until MAYBE the Cards/Chargers, nothing he does on the field will be given much credit. A significant part of my 90% confidence that this is a non-factor in the long run is that he embraces that, rather than getting down on himself. But it still makes the between-game talk frustrating as a fan.

j/c:

I think your 90% is on target. Last season one of my observations about Ski's offense is that it has 1 gear. Controlled, methodical, cohesive... what it missed last season was the deep vertical threat. I predicted in the offseason that the reason we were holding on to Njoku is because he was going to be a part of that element his year. Its only 1 game but I think my prediction has merit. The addition of Schwartz and comeback of OBJ will definitely give us that dimension.

How this relates to Baker...

Rookie Baker would attempt the throws to make these big comebacks because he didn't know better. Right now Baker is a reflection of the offense, controlled, methodical. He's not quite yet (90%) to the point where he throws the ball that Mahommes does on that 75yrd TD to Hill. That throw was a high risk, high reward, high chance of catastrophic failure. JJ3 had perfect position on that play. If he looks for the ball 2 steps before he actually did, he INTs it. A QB only makes that throw when he a) doesn't know better or b) unapologetically takes that risk.

Baker is neither. Give it a few more games I think and he'll bridge that remaining 10%.

I just hope this offense doesn't spoil us too much.

This is the silliest bunch of irrational thinking that I have ever seen.

Why don't we follow up with...

Good teams don't need 4th quarter comebacks in the first place.
Baker does not play defense either.. Last time I checked, the Browns were pretty terrible on defense. All i have to say is Sendejo.

He is fine as a QB. I would rather have him on the team than be facing him in the 4th quarter.

All QB's don't magically pull every victory out of the hat. Dak was going to be a hero for the Cowboys last week, until Brady got the ball. Dak did his job, but the Cowboys defense could not stop Brady.

I really like Baker.

And not sure why it gets to me, but the Haters are going to continue to hate. I love this team and how we've been built but we're almost too good. I don't think anyone can stop us but us.

Even if Baker balls out and performs like the top level QB he is and heaven forbid he wins the MVP or the Super Bowl the Hate excuses are already built in. We have one of the best rushing attacks in the league coupled with the best offensive line. We have the highest paid receivers in the league. I mean any QB should win with that, correct? These are the excuses...

I could see the narrative after that interception trying to march down and win the game. Forget that we should have never been in that situation giving up 10 points off turnovers. That loss after that play was always going to be Baker's fault we lost. Nevermind he was the best quarterback in that game leading up to the final drive.

And I agree he can't throw that interception even if it wasn't his fault and the defense made a terrific play.

The point is the haters will still have a case regardless how this season goes. "If he doesn't win with this team he never will" and "If he wins it all with this team is because almost every QB could win with this supporting cast."

The sad thing for me however is that some of these haters are our own fans. Some fans don't deserve Baker.

No one can stop us but us you said. Yes I agree. That's what happened at KC. We don't fumble those 2 times we win.

Of course none of us wants that to continue. That's why we need a better D performance. But you see, football is the ultimate team sport. Two out of the three turnovers in the Chiefs game were not caused by Baker. Giving up 33 points was not done by Baker.

Yet your focus seems to be on Baker.

From my eyes I see the evolution of young quarterback.

Baker's story is well known to all of us Browns fans.

You don't get to where he is, in the manner he got there, without true grit.

He came up the hard way to get to be the number one pick.

He was no Trevor Lawerence.

Once in the NFL his path would have ruined many a quarterback prospect.

I heard this analogy and believe it rings true.

When a company is losing money and they hire a new CEO. Only improvement to the bottom line counts. That is how that person is judged. How has the company improved?

No matter the situation. If someone is brought in to fix failure. They are judged by what improvement was made.

Baker did not come to the NFL with the greatest physical traits. He got there by winning. You don't get to pick
"elite teams" to beat. You play to win a game.

We all know the Browns record before Baker. We all know the failure to even find a quarterback.

So, here we are. Baker is playing in the same system with the same coaching staff for the first time ever.

Look around at all the top guys. Brady, Peyton, Mahomes, Lamar, Wilson, Ben, Allen, Brees, Rodgers. Name any you like. Has any of them walked the path that Baker has?

Yet, from 1-31 what has he done?

Baker has busted his butt to improve himself. He is a natural born leader. Listen to his teammates.

This is his team. The coaches know it. The players know it.

The Browns are now in position to win. We would not be here if it were not for Baker.

People will talk. When you have coverage 24/7/365. You gotta talk about something.

IMO Baker will bring a Super Bowl to Cleveland.

I have been waiting since 1964 when I was seventeen.

That is all I care about.

man yall putting way too much of this L on Bake. the defender got a lucky swipe at the foot. it happens.

Bake had an amazing game. thats without OBJ or our LT for most of the game. i see the haterade is on sale buy one get one free this week.

Remember when Peyton kept losing to the Patriots and couldn't get over the hump? Until he finally did? I am sure there were Colts fans who were calling for Peyton's head as well.

Some people still have no idea how good Baker really is.

I'm not one who heaps praises on players without seeing them actually earn it. Watching Baker finally get good coaching and with a good supporting cast, last season gave me cause to see the evidence of what he was actually capable of. That second half of the season gave me a view of everything I needed to see to firmly believe Baker is the answer.

Many great college players never transfer that success to the NFL. But I understood why Baker never had a legitimate opportunity to progress with a constant turnover in coaches and systems. So while I wasn't ready to pile on the praises, I wasn't ready to hang the kid out to dry either.

At this juncture I can't see anyone doubting his ability or continued progress moving forward.

I made this comment elsewhere and it 100% explaining the media( Colin Cowturd in this instance) narrative towards Baker

The problem here is Tom Brady drove his team down the field for the game winning FG and he used that earlier to talk about Brady's greatness (which he is the GOAT) but if Baker drove his team down the field for the game winner and his kicker missed the FG ( which is very likely, since he sucks) Colin would say Baker failed because he didn't get the TD , that he needs to win it and stop depending on his kicker to win the game... Fact!

This is what aggravates me because the narrative isn't consistent!!!

Whoa. Teams have patterns, if you study what the Chiefs' do since 2019, you can see the pattern of them forcing those types of mistakes. I'm sure if the stadium were quiet it would have been easier for the punter to get a clean snap too.

All of the above - true.

All that really matters is his coaches and teammates.

I saw Payton Manning throw 5 interceptions in a game. 5 interceptions...

He is still going into the Hall of Fame.

Did he win that game I doubt it.
Interceptions suck! Baker and his fumbles late in games, and stared down that receiver.

And spell check adding letters to words I know I didn't type! - (like an s at the end of receiver)^
there are 9 spaces between the - and the parenthesis, it won't ^^ move.

Maybe I've been wrong all along.

Chargers won the game that Peyton Manning threw 5 interceptions.

It was closer than you would have thought.

When you stand back and look at any QB whenever they come up short they are subjected to an unfair amount of criticism, it is the nature of the beast so to speak. Every single time Brady has a bad game and he has had them people start sticking forks in him and they did the same with Manning as well so for me the criticism is fair but hardly ever accurate.

In the case of the Int. on Sunday that play CONNOT happen, Baker knows it and so do all of us. It isn't a snap shot of Baker's ability or effort it was one play in a game and perhaps the most important play of the game and he failed. He owns that it's just that simple.

But we have a long season ahead he will recover and we were in a tuff spot to win, and it stung because until the last 10 minutes of that game we truly had it in the bag, every single break went in favor of the Chiefs, it happens and they are a great team you simply don't get to the SB as consistently as they have over the course of the past few seasons without being good.

I don't want this to turn into an excuse for Baker or for the Browns coming up short, it's simple all truth and nothing but the truth. The momentum in the game was changed by the Chubb fumble and the Hammer not getting it done on a punt something he has practiced 1000's of times and he failed, Chub failed and finally Baker failed one bad play snowballed take away any of those plays and the Browns ice that game. The Chubb fumble looking back was the worst of it because it was the 1st. It also was disappointing to not perform better as a team to recover to refocus and put this game away. Nick is NOT a fumbler and Baker is NOT a turnover machine and the Hammer is NOT a fumbler either. For whatever reason the football Gods decided we had to lose.

In the end it was but one game and is NOT all that important NOW, we can't change the past. What we can do is get better as the season rolls on correct what went wrong in that game put it behind us and do much much much better the next go. This can actually be a great teaching point and get everyone to double down on their focus in the 4th quarter of games. Everything was lined up for us to ice this game Chubb was carving up the Chiefs defense and they were exhausted from trying to stop us all afternoon. Someone got a hat on the ball and jarred the ball out, it happens and as a team you have got to overcome those plays, because as painful as it is to see you have to find a way to overcome. My disappointment is we didn't grind well enough in the end and that is a team failure.

This was not a defining moment for this team, we will face these situations many many times through this season how we react is far move important in my mind then that these plays happen. take that Chubb play away 1 stinking play and the outcome of this game is different Chubb finishes this deal off the Browns go up by 19 game over. That is what I expect to happen from here out, and that can be a positive IMO.

The only thing that is important here is that we take our lesson, and get ready to put the boots to Houston. The game in KC is over.

Oh and folks, who is truly disappointed with Bakers performance without the Int. to end it?

A game is a body of work, one play took away the truly solid performance he put up.

I agree with your point...I'll add that the end of game "failure" came due to Baker being tackling while throwing the ball. It's not like he simply made a bad throw or read or decision that resulted in the error...the other team made a good play there.

Sometimes when I read about his "failure" I think I'm reading someone who didn't actually see/know that he was tackled as he released the ball. (Not saying that is you.)

C’mon, everyone knows it’s another Vers sock puppet.

I recall the "Baker is a one read QB" myth.

At this point, I'm not even sure there's an argument against Baker being the best QB from the 2018 draft.

As a fan base, do you want to go to the Super Bowl and win the whole thing or do you want to spend your time defending Baker Mayfield? I thought the name of the game was to win the whole thing.

The whole difference between winning the whole thing and not is the QB. The difference between winning and losing in the NFL is literally game winning drives by elite QBs. That's it. That's the NFL.

Baker failed on Sunday. He really doesn't have a signature put the team on his back come from behind win against a quality opponent yet. There are questions out there about his abilities on third down when there is no play action and no receivers running across the field wide open on whether or not he can get it done. I think those questions are slightly unfair as no one completes more plus level throws on 3rd down than Baker. But think about the context he's being judged in. Nobody cares if Baker converts 3rd and 20s all day long against the Bengals. The Browns are now being judged only against whether they can win it all. That is the lense they are now being viewed through. And that will always come down to the QB. That's just the way the NFL works.

People rush to Baker's defense on here like he's their child. This is absolute insanity. Baker came up short. Nothing he did before that moment friggin matters. The object is to win the game. Why can't people just call it what it is without getting defensive about it. Now let's move on and hope it doesn't happen again.

And for the umpteenth time before people start crying, I am not saying I don't like Baker or I want to move on from Baker or he's a finished product or we can't win it all with him or any other overly emotional overreactions my post is going to draw from the usual suspects on this board. I am saying Baker had a chance to put the team on his back to win the game. He failed. It's concerning he really hasn't demonstrated he can do that so far in his career. I hope the trend the changes. I still love the Browns (and Baker).

"Baker Mayfield is now a professional QB. The way he diagnoses what's going on on defense. The way he uses his eyes, shoulders to manipulate the defense...His command in the backfield on run plays, fakes. He looks like a guy more totally in command."

Well...it is a bottom line business...no doubt. But...

How do you consider the fact that he was hit as he threw?

How do you factor in Schwartz not holding on to the long pass play?

The Browns lost Sunday. The turnovers beat them. The other team made plays when they needed them and we made mistakes when we should not have....

To say that Baker failed tells one small piece of the story...when that happens, people who know/see/acknowledge more of the story will push back. It's nothing new.

The pass to Schwartz was his worst of the game. More egregious than the interception. Lead him to the sideline and it's a huge completion. Inaccurate pass that forced Scwartz into a tough contested catch. If you have it recorded watch it again. He had been incredibly accurate the entire day. That was his first really inaccurate throw. And it coincidentally came at a time where he couldn't afford it.

I believe he’s talking about the incomplete pass later in the game.

Give it time. I didn't see anywhere that said we must go to the Super Bowl this year. We just have that potential. Baker is growing.

The time is now.

That makes sense.

1:08 in video in link...

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/schwartz-njoku-and-spacing


Schwartz hauled in three of his five targets for 69 yards and also took a reverse for 17 yards. He put up an excellent 24.4 ADOT and nearly made a fantastic adjustment on a slightly off-target pass late in the game, but it was broken up on a great defensive play by KC safety Juan Thornhill

He is...he's also assuming that the rookie ran the correct route - which he did not in another part of the game that would have been a TD.

Baker had been accurate all day...was his quote. Perhaps maybe...just maybe...a QB in "comeback mode" can count on his WRs to make a play on the ball every now and then...even when he needs it the most

You can't be talking about the pass you showed,, that was outstanding.

It was a bad pass. No two ways around it.

Yet he completed 75% of his passes of 321 yards. Can you name one NFL QB who never makes a bad throw? No, you can't.

It's ok that you're wrong.

this is how you win superbowls with an average defense

I’m not sure we’re average .. maybe we CAN be average

The first game tells us nothing. Mahomes is a magician. The second game is much more alarming.

Thank you for telling me that when the QB plays good the team wins. We are all shocked.

I thought that was good info.

That’s a good looking graph

Is that line telling me that as Yards/attempt goes up, so does completion% (on average)?

Really?

I think it is describing the Mean.

I thought so two. With it sloped upwards that means that QBs (on average) who have higher yards/attempt also have higher completion%.

I thought that was kinda curious.

even just looking at the plots, that holds. It's odd, because that's the inverse of how QB'ing was in the past. It used to be that when you saw a QB with a high completion percentage, the talk of "yeah, but he Dink & Dunks it down the field" would begin. Couch is notable for these conversations. Now, the situation seems to have been inverted.


I think it speaks to the ability level of those on the right side of the graph. The guys pushing it downfield are all pretty good, and they all likely have pretty good targets that can get open in the deeper routes.

Jack Nicklaus famously said that you can't win the Masters on Thur/Fri but you can lose it. It's all about the back nine on Sunday. With that said, somebody usually comes to the back 9 with a 2 or 3 shot lead and a few golfers still in the chase.. all have given themselves a chance to win.. but the guy with the 2 shot lead usually holds on and wins.... we were in that chase position against the Chiefs. We came to the final 7 minutes of the game having played well enough to have a chance to win. We didn't. So there are a couple obvious places to look to place blame.. either we didn't play the back 9 on Sunday well enough to overcome the deficit... or we could have been the one with the lead if not for the 2 double bogeys we made on Saturday... everybody gets to choose.. my opinion.. it's a bit of both.


So you are advocating that we rely less on our running game that works, let Baker take a lot more chances, make mistakes that cause us to be playing from behind more.. then that will make us better. It sounds kind of silly when you say it out loud but I do believe there might be some truth to it.. Baker plays in an offense that doesn't require him to take chances, in fact to the contrary, it discourages them. So he does play very cautious.. maybe it is hard to flip that switch in the final few minutes... could be.

He didn't do a deeper dive, he read my post from yesterday.

Maybe this is his swimmin' hole?

It's a very curious discussion to be having. I suppose I see Rish's point about not being a legitimately elite QB without that aspect of a body of work showing you can get it done by yourself. But when you start to picture what that would like you end up with all sorts of choices that don't seem to be very palatable.

Fore example: If Baker is constantly being put in to a position where he has to put the team on his shoulder to boost come from behind wins, that would mean our defense sucks so bad we're in weekly shoot outs and/or the offensive scheme is either trash or lacking talent. I don't think I like that trade off.

You make a great point that this offense discourages Baker from taking chances. If I have one criticism of Ski's offense is that it only moves at one speed. Each drive is controlled, purposeful, and eats up clock. Every now and then I would really like to see us run a no-huddle, just for giggles. We have the personnel for it.

There doesn't seem to be much room so far for Baker to improvise or just let it rip. But given how efficient and successful our Offense is, its difficult to justify the necessity of doing anything different.

As thorough as this coaching staff has been, it seems pretty likely that CLE has a hurry-up/2-minute/no huddle package in their back pocket. This year to date, I can't really recall when such a roll-out would have been useful or even practical.

Pretty sure we'll see it before the season expires.

So you're saying Baker has been pretty good....

I wonder too how many passes there are where the QB throws it like 2 yards and the WR takes it 20+... we saw at least one like that yesterday for a TD.

Apparently Baker is average.... I mean it would appear that factually and based on performance he is far from average, but you know.

Anyone see the ball Aaron threw into triple coverage tonight... 3rd Q ... Horrible throw WR saved a certain interception. Glad Baker didn't throw that pass, we'd hear about it all year as a reference point to why Baker is average.

Show that play to Anthony Schwartz. That horrible throw by Rodgers was broken up by his WR... Davante Adams played great defense.

Baker is going to end up with trust issues throwing to his WR. DPJ fumbles. Schwartz stops on his route causing an interception?

We need better receivers.

that's what coaching is for

There is only one WR to turn to.....

There has never been a QB that can “do it himself”. What there has been are QBs that can rally their teammates to perform with him when the chips are down. Even then the teammates must have both talent and the ability to perform in those situations.

Baker will continue to improve. What is important is how he demonstrates leadership to his teammates particularly those who don’t perform at crunch time.

I love the way you worded that, and you are 100% correct.

A qb can only do so much.............ya know, like making a pass to a great spot, but having a receiver stop running cause he might get hit?

It takes 11 guys doing their job on offense.

Exactly you start at a certain point and you coach up to where you need to be.

I would assume that Woods has a lot on his plate right now trying to assemble the defense and get it where it needs to be with so many new players it was bound to take time, and I assume that these things are also true for our younger players on the offensive side of the ball. The thing is to not keep doing the same thing when it implodes due to a player not doing their job.

If we can keep winning games and get the arrow pointing up so we continue to improve will be fine in the end.

I think that it was part of the game plan for Houston to try some different things on defense and correct those things as we go forward. Like I said keep winning games and keep getting better those are the keys.

And yes as you said coaching is the key.

At least we don't have a coach that waves off a penalty and then punts anyway...........Never thought I would see that one !

So many dissing Baker cause he only had a 63.3% completion.

Now he is over 80+% and leading the NFL and he still gets criticized and questioned if he is a true franchise QB.

also I would like to say that his completions are not just completions but passes that are spot on accurate where the Receiver gets to achieve YAC. Where I see a QB like DAK who is doing good but a lot of his throws are behind the WR or low or high where he has to stop and catch the ball then resume running. Big difference and when he has the so called weapons that he is said to have (Higgins is our #1 WR) it will make
a big differfence.

We don't have a Kelce, we dont have a Tyrek Hill, we don't have a Hopkins - yet that is all we heard all year oh the weapons Baker has....yeah outside of the run game WHERE?!?!

.

Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield isn’t afraid to mix it up, even with one good arm, and his teammates notice



BEREA, Ohio -- Baker Mayfield handed the ball off to Nick Chubb on second-and-4 with 11:06 left in the third quarter on Sunday. Chubb gave the ball to rookie wide receiver Anthony Schwartz on a reverse.

Mayfield ended up out in front on the play and took on former teammate, cornerback Terrance Mitchell, throwing him to the ground with his right arm.

“I buried him with one hand,” Mayfield said in a Mic’d up segment tweeted by NFL Films on Tuesday.

He used one arm, of course, because earlier in the game he had injured his left shoulder trying to tackle Texans safety Justin Reid after throwing an interception on a ball intended for Schwartz.

“Obviously, not an ideal situation,” Mayfield said on Sunday after the game. “Trying to force (Reid) back inside. I think he realized it was me standing right there so he put his head down and ran right after me. It kind of popped in and out, but I will be good. Nothing too serious.”

The whole situation made running back Kareem Hunt nervous.

“I told him, ‘Let me tackle him next time,’” he said.

Mayfield, as you’d expect, had a retort ready to go for Hunt.

“Well, he needs to get his ass up there and make it happen,” he joked on Wednesday.

The block on Mitchell wasn’t the first time Mayfield threw caution to the wind post-injury. His first drive back on the field, he scrambled into the endzone from five yards out to tie the game at 14.

“I was just going to get in there no matter what,” Mayfield said after the game.

It was the type of toughness that led to Myles Garrett saying Mayfield is “like Brett Favre 2.0.”

On Wednesday, Mayfield said the shoulder is good a few days after the injury. “It’s still attached,” he said.

If there was a lesson to be learned from Sunday’s contest, it was to be cautious on certain plays, especially when defenders sense an opportunity.

“On the interception, it’s more so just be careful on how it’s going,” he said. “There’s definitely plays where a defense is going to try to knock you out of the game, that’s just the nature of the game. Just be careful.”

While he acknowledged there are certain plays where he can slide down to protect himself, he also said there are situations where he just has to make a play.

“When it comes to having to get a first down and all that, I’m not going to change the way I play,” Mayfield said, “because my mentality is always whatever I can do to help a team a win.”

It echoed something Mayfield said prior to the Texans game. On another run play by Schwartz in the Chiefs Week 1 matchup, Mayfield got out in front and was looking for work in the blocking game.

“Just doing anything we can to win,” Mayfield said. “That has always been my mentality. If I can help the team win in any way, I am going to do it, no matter if it is an unorthodox play of a quarterback making a block. That is just the nature of this game, and I am going to do whatever is required.”

“That is the love of the game, and that is Baker,” offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt said last week. “I challenge him all of the time to be the first one down there to pick the backs up. He does a great job at it, and sometimes you get involved. If the play cuts back and you are on a bootleg fake, sometimes you can get out in front and help the runners.”

Stefanski joked last week Mayfield was just trying to show off his technique to offensive line coach Bill Callahan, but added it’s not something they’re going to put him in position to do often.

“I think you guys know Baker. He loves his teammates. He will do whatever is asked of him,” Stefanski said. “We are not going to try and put him that position often, though.”

Stefanski reiterated that sentiment on Wednesday.

“Sometimes you run those plays and you’re telling the quarterback, ‘Hey, really you just got to get this thing started,’” Stefanski said. “He’s not getting lead blocking tips from (run game coordinator/running backs coach) Stump Mitchell.”

This is the fine line teams have to walk with any franchise quarterback. Their competitiveness always brings out some trait in them that might make you a little nervous.

With Josh Allen, it’s those “you only live once” plays where he throws caution to the wind. Patrick Mahomes threw a costly interception against the Ravens on Sunday night because he possesses the ability to make almost any throw from any arm angle and is fearless to try them all. Lamar Jackson is second in the league in rushing yards, but certainly Ravens fans might get a little antsy when he exposes himself to hits usually reserved for running backs, even though he’s managed to stay healthy throughout his young career.


Mayfield has managed to stay healthy, too. He has yet to miss a start and has barely missed a snap since taking over in the third game of the 2018 season, even as his competitiveness sometimes comes out in his willingness to take on a defender.

It’s something his teammates notice and appreciate.

“I was impressed,” wide receiver Jarvis Landry said last week when Mayfield looking to block against the Chiefs was brought up. “We’ve been trying to get him to back down a little bit, he is the quarterback, but that’s one thing, that’s his toughness that he shows and it’s definitely an encouraging thing to see when you’re blocking, to see your quarterback actually out there throwing blocks.”

Tight end Austin Hooper wasn’t surprised to see Mayfield come back in the game Sunday and throw a one-armed block. He said it just re-affirmed how much of a “tough S.O.B.” his quarterback is.

“He sets a precedent so no one else can have an excuse now,” Hooper said. “I mean, if our quarterback’s out there, throwing guys to the ground with one arm, what excuse do you have?”

Even a defender, linebacker Malcolm Smith, was impressed with Mayfield making a play on the pick.

“He wants to get the guy down and I respect that because you’ve seen otherwise where guys just let him score and that sucks, so I definitely appreciate it,” Smith said. “We’ll definitely have to work on the technique a little but, maybe not sacrifice that part of your body but I’m glad it wasn’t his throwing arm.”

“He’s a very competitive player, he’s a very competitive person, he’s fiery,” Stefanski said. “The tackle (on the interception) itself, obviously we want to get (Reid) on the ground without getting hurt, so that’s a learning lesson. But his teammates respond to him and certainly in moments where he’s gutting things out, when he’s showing his toughness, I think your teammates respond to that.”

It’s about finding balance, both for Mayfield and in what the coaching staff asks him to do.

“Don’t want to take the competitiveness out of him,” Stefanski said, “but don’t foresee him as a lead blocker very often.”

Mayfield has turned into Mr. Reliable, and it's truly something I think he is underappreciated for.

He guts it out and gives all he has, as a fan I love that about him, along with his pin point accuracy. I have said it before he is our guy how he goes so go we sign him and lets lock him in.

I think it's sort of hysterical that some guys think Jackson is better, not even close. Baker will be taking apart the Ravens while Jackson spends the back end of his career on IR is my bet.

I doubt that Jackson's play will remain as poor as it has so far. I think that offense has spent too much time together and knows what it's doing that it just needs to find its footing to get back to looking good again. Jackson has his warts, as many have said, but the dude can still ball as long as everyone else is doing what they're supposed to.

I think your Mr. Reliable comment is dead on. I think the most spectacular thing about Mayfield so far is that he's just been Mr Steady Eddy and not all that dramatic or exciting. He just goes out there and does what he needs to do... really without any extra drama or theatrics. Efficiency isn't super exciting, but it's exciting that he's being so efficient. By doing that, there isn't anything to suggest that he's going to 'fall back to Earth'.

I think that helps to point out that often times ones perception doesn't always equal reality. I highly doubt many posters thought Baker had one of the highest percentage of downfield passes in the league.

Editor: "Hey, can you give me that same chart those other guys did, but maybe get rid of the line for the Mean, and maybe give me heads instead of dots"

Actually I'm pretty sure there's a mean line in there, it's just almost flat (I think it just barely shows an inverse relationship).

Even though it's inverse, I'm surprised at how flat it is. Same as before, I expect to see the 'gunslinger vs game-manager' argument play out in graph form, but it's still not there.

It is too early in the season to be looking at statistics and projecting performance over a season.

4 games please.

That said, Baker has had a good start. 21/28 (75%) for KC, and 19/21 (90.4%) for Houston.

He HAS had a good start, notwithstanding the dumb 1st down pick to end KC game. I'd like to see him keep that top 1/3 of the league air yards, and somewhere hovering around 70%, which I think is doable.

And for those criticizing his lack of TDs (not here so much, but definitely other NFL fans), the current TD split I think is 7:1 rushing:passing. Last year we ended 26 pass:21 rush, so there is no way that this ratio keeps up. We've just happen to have a handful of passes that take us down inside the 5, at which point it is just smarter with our line and backs to run it in.

The thing with Jackson, is he is running at will most of the time, and does not take big hits. His unique style and athleticism, forces defenses to be hesitant on all levels. His deep ball is atrocious, but him drawing safeties in, many times , leaves WRs wide open. When he hits those throws, they are usually big gainers.

I don't think anybody has truly figured out how to stop him yet, and keeping him in pocket seems to work the best. But, keeping him in the pocket is a tall task. The dude is a unique creature.

I pray baker is here for 15 year leading us to multiple superbowls

--Baker is super accurate.

--Baker always completes a ton of plus level throws. Always one of the best in the league in this regard. My absolute favorite quality about him. No 3rd and long is insurmountable.

--He's tough as nails. Maybe one of the toughest guys in the league.

--He still needs to prove he can put a team on his shoulders when the other team knows you're passing and play action means nothing for the go ahead score to win the game.

All of the above are true.

For all the fans that get emotional about Baker...if you just want a guy to be proud of, a guy that fits Cleveland, a guy that's going to bring a bunch of wins to Cleveland, a guy that's easy to love...we've got him.

If you want to win it all, it's not clear if he's that guy yet. The literal difference between winning it all or not is being able to deliver game winning drives against the best when it matters most.

That's the long and short of it. That's where we are at with Baker. It's not the worst place to be. But if you want to feel the euphoria winning it all, we need to see more.

I hope they continue innovations that create the high accuracy percentage over the next 4 games, one by one, and move on from there.
One by One, Chicago, Minnesota, then the other two.

It really seems like you are trying super hard to be this boards version of a Colin Cowherd. Framing the discussion to give Baker props but essentially saying until he wins it all - we don't know if he can win it all. Using bad teams and mistakes by the team as an excuse to form an argument that Baker hasn't carried the entire team to victory despite inept incompetency and bad breaks. . . . I mean, Hollywood Higgins gets the correct targeting call when he got speared on the side of his helmet on the goal line vs KC last year in the playoffs and you basically don't have a leg to stand on ... as it is we are a missed call, a Chubb Fumble and a muffed punt away from beating KC twice.

There is more to Baker's game than the first three bullet points - but if you don't realize you can win everything with a solid team and a super accurate QB (short and deep), a baller and tough QB who his team mates love and will go to war for .... then I don't know what to tell you.

But you keep creating the contrived controversy. And nice play calling anyone that supports Baker "emotional" !! That was classy (not) - I mean, because I disagree you're come back is that I'm emotional? No, what I am is watching the games, paying attention to what Baker has accomplished since joining a 1-31 team and going through 4 HC in 4 years and all that went along with it.

From 1-32 to 18-16 with two playoff games. Anyone see a trend here? Any shortcomings of Baker can be said of 31 other QBs in the league, because that's how many don't win the Super Bowl each year.

30...

1-31-1 is > not = to 1-32

30 assumes Bakers' not the winning QB.
We're both assuming we're only talking starting Qb's.

As Keye and Peale once said. What happens when we assume? "You get THE ANSWER RIGHT!"

The Two Minute Offense!

^ 4 words that equal a Big Question going forward.

Go Browns!

One of the things that really wasn't talked about until now that is, is how Baker under pressure didn't maintain his mechanics (footwork) with the pressure that the Bears were able to bring.

It sorta had the hair on the back of my neck standing up, because I had thought he had made enough progress in this area that we no longer had to worry about his footwork. I found it alarming that he fell back on his old bad habit and we saw balls sailing high once again.

Another cause of concern was he still hasn't or isn't using Njoku the way I think he can. I see him trying but he just isn't quite there YET.

In an alike manner to the focus being on OBJ and getting their timing and trust in each other where it needs to be in a similar manner at least some focus should be shifted to Njoku. He truly is IMO an untapped resource.

It's not just that but Njoku is the best TE we have on the Browns in fact it's not even close, but if you don't use him he is sorta wasted talent.

I feel certain that if not during the game, or when film got broken down it was pointed out how Baker's footwork was off. I could see it in my living room.

These are area's that Baker needs to improve in clearly, oddly his footwork broke down the moment OBJ set foot on the field...

Just something I am putting out there to watch for, nearly every single time when baker sails a ball it's because his footwork broke down.

Oddly the press nor fans here on DT picked up on his footwork issue and pressure. I feel certain when teams brake Baker down it's going to be a point of emphasis to get pressure. Don't be surprised if the Vikings don't try to get Baker's footwork off he didn't seem to self correct that issue in this last game.

Getting pressure on Baker is easier said then done, and he is working from inside the pocket this year better then ever before.

Another oddity was the Browns rolled Baker out 1 time that I can think of and odder still it was the 1st play on offense. What did they see from the Bears that stopped them from rolling Baker out?

One thing I have noticed as well defenses are focused on backside contain and in reality it serves them well both in containing Baker on his roll outs and in backside runs.

I really haven't noticed what we are doing to counter this I know Baker in the past has drawn in the outside man who is responsible for contain then dumped the ball over their head I suppose this will continue?

Just something to think about????

dont forget the good plays

most of the bad footwork was Baker going left. Why so many roll outs going left.

Definitely an off day for Baker and if that is his off day that isn't so bad.

I didn't like some of the play calls, I hate run run pass to win a game closer than we should.

I think that whacked left shoulder is bothering him more than he is letting on.

Agreed. I mean who didn't see Baker kneeling on the field after that hit and initially think the season was over for him? I know it's his left shoulder but it has to be giving him some pain at some point, and it has to be in his mind a little. Hopefully he comes through pretty clean and each week it gets better.

He took that full-weight body slam in the Bears game that had to hurt that shoulder further. Bears actually were flagged for that.

His "mechanics" didn't suddenly regress in one game against a good Bears pass rush. That does NOT mean he didn't have issues with his mechanics ON THAT DAY. Just like the OLine did not lose "continuity" against a good Bears pass rush either. That's the NFL.

I appreciate the insight, I'll be giving Baker's footwork more attention. I agree about Njuko, I kept asking myself last week when was he going to get targeted.

Just something to talk about and I appreciate the comments.

It could be that the shoulder is bothering him more then he has let on?

Could be a lot of things but he did revert to the old Baker where his footwork was off.

I love Baker and what his presence has meant to this football team and there is way more good then bad. Could it be they told him one thing he couldn't do was turn the ball over that as long as he avoided that we would win?

Just something to watch for and pray doesn't show up when we need him most....

Based on some of the scrambling and the dive for a first down (which we should have challenged) - I don't know that the shoulder is bothering him much. Today was a really bad day for Baker ... I have every confidence he'll be back on track soon.

I'll have to re-watch it to see how much of Baker's problems today were mechanics. He played poorly. He seems to be getting antsy in the pocket as he has in the past. A lot of that took place before Wills went out.

Tons of happy feet and high passes. Just not himself (or what we’ve seen of him at times)

True enough. But the play I found maddening was in the 1st half when he had Felton open in the flat he was rolling out in that direction. He has to see him but he chose to run? He didn't convert the 3rd down either.

I miss the cool calm and collected Baker from week 1. I hope he gets his composure back after today. Those feet were Dancing With the Stars like his 2019 games. Here's to hoping he gets back on track from here on out. It seems he struggles early in every season.

I don't see us rolling out the way we used to.
I don't see the OLine moving like it used to.

I think the Tretter, Conklin, and Wills injuries are affecting things, and I think Baker might be getting some happy feet with pressure and not quite feeling settled back there knowing that every other spot on the OLine is playing hurt. He's been sacked a lot so far this year, and I think he may have been taking even more hits..... he may just need to stop rushing things and remember "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". Slow the game back down.

The injuries could be affecting things for sure. Looking at Baker in games like Tennessee, KC, Dallas, etc .. .and then looking at him today … it’s like two totally different dudes

I read he started wearing a brace on his left shoulder last week.

I think it's a combination of injuries to Baker and the o-line. You just can't go from how well we were playing on O to what it was today in 2 weeks. Something has to be amiss.

It needs to go.

He's been wearing the brace since he came back from injury in the Texans game.

Let's Just Have A Baker Mayfield Conversation
By JAKE BURNS

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...33/#172375333_1


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Your Browns won. It was a great day celebrating a unique win. I enjoyed it. I podcasted with general glee. Yet, here I am. Back again writing about a win but on a negative thread inside the greater good. The defense should be the focus. They really should be. Over the last two weeks, they're putting together some of the franchise's best work in decades (I promise I will get to that this week), but the quarterback position always demands more. It always will. The nature of the beast, as they say. You truly go about as far as this position can carry you. So, when we get what we saw from Baker Mayfield on Sunday we at least need to talk about it.

The cliche "quarterbacks get too much of the credit and too much of the blame" will always hold true with me. Someone who values the nuance and process over the results frame of mind. However, this sport is not processed in a singular frame of reference. I view quarterback play differently than you do, and you do it perhaps differently than me. We all bring our personal biases and experiences to the table and then we form our opinion.

We all sat through Sunday's performance. We all left frustrated with the offense but relieved they found their way to 3-1 -- the Browns' best start since 2002. There's plenty to be happy about, but there is also fair reason to feel that concern you do deep in your stomach. The root of the issues brewing below is that Baker Mayfield has failed to be the version you started to grow comfortable with at the end of 2020. When he was one of the key reasons, from Week 7 on, that the offense found success en route to a playoff experience. We saw accuracy, anticipation, and confidence that pointed Mayfield into a potential future fit inside the league's best. This run of stellar play from Mayfield was rightfully well-documented.

Those covering the quarterback expected those same performances into the 2021 season where he would finally get the repeat he needed in the same system and with the same play-caller. However, we have seen Mayfield largely limp through four weeks. He had quality flashes that were reminiscent of the 2020 version through three quarters in Kansas City but he three in four fourth-quarter drives. The game's blame didn't belong to him, but there were throws needed that were missed. The second half in the Texans game left several big plays on the field we have documented here at The OBR, and last week we all witnessed the struggles with hitting some shot plays downfield that would have easied the offense's struggles for the larger portion of the game.

Look, he's been good enough to win ugly, but is that what Mayfield wants? Is that what the fan base is craving? Those questions sit front and center. I truly believe that Baker Mayfield is a good quarterback, but the question keeps coming back to just how good he can become. Yesterday was a step in the wrong direction, but it doesn't have to define his season.

WHAT WE CAN QUANITFY
Let’s just get it out of the way: Mayfield was terrible in Minnesota. It doesn’t define his career or even his season, but the performance is the performance. You can find whatever excuse suits you, but the metrics do not lie. The raw data will tell you his -18.3 CPOE (completion percentage over expectation) was the lowest for a Week 4 quarterback in the NFL barring a Monday Night Football clunker and his EPA was among the league’s worst as well but saved by not turning the ball over.

His film-based metrics from Pro Football Focus will end up sub-50 and it will mark one of his worst performances since 2020 in Pittsburgh and 2019 in San Francisco. He won’t want to remember it and neither will we.

These games happen, though. They just do. If you look hard enough, you can find these types of games for the league's best over the last 20 years. For context, we looked even closer to their early careers as best as possible to find a similar level of league exposure.

Aaron Rodgers: Year 4 of starting...on 12/18/11 versus the KC Chiefs. 17-35, 1 TD, and 80.1 passer rating. Chiefs were 5-8 coming into the game, while Packers were 15-0. Rodgers was a 1st team All-pro that season and led the league in passer rating (122.5) and approximate value (23) (both were the highest marks of his career).

Philip Rivers: Year 3 of starting...on 11/16/08 versus the Steelers. 15-26, with zero touchdowns, two interceptions, and a 44.4 passer rating. Lost the game 11-10. Even with that, Rivers threw the most TDs of his career in 2008 (34) and led the league in passer rating (105.5).

Drew Brees: Back in 2003, in his San Diego Charger days, he had a 7-15 performance for 49 yards and an interception with a 26.8 rating. Then also in 2005, he had a 22-44 for 215 yards, and three interceptions performance where he had a 35.7 passer rating.

Peyton Manning: In 2001 he had a 19 for 32 performance for 173 yards where he threw three interceptions and ended with a 35.0 rating in a 41-6 loss in Miami.

Again, you can dig and find these games for almost all quarterbacks not named Mahomes. Mayfield has had a select few like them but this one was different in a sense. He struggled pushing the ball downfield with accuracy, and that is rare for him since getting into the NFL. The decision-making and processing can deviate but generally he has been an accurate quarterback in the league when driving it to the deeper portions of the field. Sunday was different in that realm.



I turned to our own Cody Suek for some research and context on this one. On throws 20+ yards downfield Mayfield has been largely good. In 2018 he had 11 touchdowns and only four interceptions. In 2019 he struggled most of the year with seven touchdowns and seven interceptions, but then bounced back in 2020 with six touchdowns to just three interceptions.

He was top-3 in adjusted completion percentage on throws 20+ yards downfield in both 2018 (51.4%) and 2020 (51.8%). He was 12th in total EPA (expected points added) on those throws in 2018 (29.38) and 7th in total EPA in 2020 (28.95).

So, the game was a career worst type of dud for Mayfield in both the film and data side, but the issues are not isolated to just Week 4. This week just exasperated them.

The bigger perplexity at play here is the streaky play inside those numbers career efforts. He will have those stretches of poor play, and then those stretches of scorching play as well. The question for the Browns is how well they can stomach those stretches when they turn south for Mayfield.

The beginning of 2021 has been the perfect microcosm of Mayfield’s career. He lit the Chiefs for three quarters before the turn. He played a solid first half against the Texans before the turn and now we’re in the midst of an infamous Mayfield cold streak. A streak like we saw at the start of 2020.

In order to fully contextualize we should show evidence from yesterday’s game but some more of 2021 in whole to prove the point on the concerns inside this cold streak.

Let’s check the tape, folks.

WHAT OUR EYES TELL US
Mayfield has rarely been the guy to consistently provide those insane throws outside of structure, or those with supreme anticipation. He has made his money with Stefanski by throwing to opened schemed routes and, for the most part, that’s just fine. Kevin Stefanski is so gifted as a play-caller and scheme creator that combined with Mayfield’s arm talent and general accuracy, the two have formed a nice Ying to the Chubb/Hunt Yang.

When Stefanski is dealing as a play-caller (let me tell you he was really scheming yesterday) and Mayfield is processing the field well with a hot hand for accuracy, they’re brutal to stop. We’ve seen evidence of this in 2020 and the early portions of the game in Week 1.




But when Mayfield is missing those schemed throws you start to get concerned and the offense becomes stagnant. It was missing simple reads like the second half against the Texans here where he ignores the easy throw to Donovan Peoples-Jones for a touchdown off the fake.

Or finding the right throw, but just missing. It happened twice last week against the Bears in key third-down moments. First, missing Demetric Felton on a wheel route out of the backfield on the opening drive, and then missing a boot play-action throw to Harrison Bryant on an over route in the fourth quarter.



Sunday had a mixture of it all. From the processing issues to the inaccuracy, Mayfield clearly didn't have it in this one.

He failed to process Donovan People-Jones on the square in here for an easy completion.


Off play-action, he passes up an open curl from Odell Beckham Jr. for Harrison Bryant in the flat despite zero pressure.


He missed a holeshot to Beckham up the left sideline (bottom of your screen) on this straight drop concept.


This is the one that stands out most from a "he failed to see it" perspective. Off the roll fake, he has Demetric Felton in the flat for several seconds while lingering the eyes downfield on a 3rd and 2. He has Felton all the way up until the moment he decides to take a sack.


Then there were the misses. We can rattle these off, but I think it's fair we just list them here and let you decipher for yourself. Suffice to say, Beckham should have had a 200-yard performance.






It is a genuinely tough watch. These are not the types of throws Mayfield misses in this volume. This game has the potential to be a one-off for this degree of struggle but you can obviously get a feel for the reasons for concern to this point.

The 3-1 results are lovely for the Browns. Could easily be 4-0 with the right turnover luck, but the offense is a problem and its main crux is Baker Mayfield currently.



WHERE WE GO FROM HERE
So, for this type of game, you wad it up and throw it in the trash. There's not much else you can do. Can't go back and fix it. Can't have a redo. All Mayfield can do is learn from it and do his best to move on. To be better moving forward. We have data of him rebounding from similar times like this in his career. However, that doesn't change the issue right now, and the Browns must do all they can to fix that issue.

In 2020, the turnaround for Mayfield from Week 7 on with extensive work by offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt and Stefanski ended up paying dividends in team-based achievements and post-season recognition. They will be tasked with doing this again. If the young quarterback is truly hurt, then there needs to be a recognition of that and allow him some time to heal. If he is missing throws due to the sling on his non-throwing shoulder, again, rectify it. He isn't playing like a player whose shoulder is noticeably bothering him, but there could be something there. The potential contract extension could be a lingering distraction, the pressure to be perfect, who knows. It just has to be fixed.

We can pretend Mayfield has been playing well this year when outside of three quarters in Kansas City he has been largely average while leaving plays on the field. If that is your expectation for him, then fine. He can be that. But the hope here is the Mayfield is more than that. That he can lift them beyond their current levels.

For now, we just know Mayfield has to be better and so does Mayfield. He keeps saying as much. It is all there in front of him. His complete story for 2021 has obviously yet to be written, but the delay can't happen much longer. Not with what's coming on the schedule for the next four weeks.

The elephant in the room I really don’t want to wade too deeply into is the murky waters of whether Mayfield is better without Beckham. However you want to view it, and the data is not kind. According to Pro Football Focus, Mayfield's career passing grades with Beckham is 68.7 and without Beckham, it is 90.7.

There is no debate that things have to change soon as we peek into the future. It’s brutal to accurately quantify the issue and it ends up feeling like blaming the wrong person too often when the intentions center on football benevolence from both sides. However, the film data tells us that there’s a story to two Mayfield’s here, and the Browns have to find Mayfield's Dr. Jekyll and remove this version of Mr. Hyde with Beckham. The pair have it in them, I know they do.


The two players are immensely talented. It was excruciating to watch Mayfield trying so hard to make it work with Beckham yesterday only keep missing him on opportunity after opportunity. It’s affecting both of them to the point of body language crisis. Mayfield is wearing the stress of it on his entire being. Physically and mentally.

While the efforts yesterday are tough to watch in retrospect, like some early efforts in 2020, Mayfield still has every chance to right this ship and turn the season into something memorable. Not one thing was defined yesterday and he is still behind the controls of fixing this thing. It will take a collective effort from everyone involved in the offense, and Mayfield will have to rise up again. The final story of this season is likely written in whether that happens for Mayfield and the Browns or not.

''''''''''''''''


Lots of videos in the link.

My biggest concerns with Baker yesterday, besides his missed throws, was his vision. You can definitely tell something is in his head about getting the ball out, or just taking off down the field. Almost some sort of panic.

That missed read of Felton sitting all alone on the sideline was killer. He also had Hunt wide open on another first down play later in the game. He wasn't seeing things.

I was really frustrated and angry watching the game. I do feel like a lot of the fan reaction on Twitter went overboard, much like it did with our defense after week 2, but this is a problem that needs corrected, whether it's through resting, retooling the offense, or whatever. It's beginning a trend and it's something that needs to be addressed. I have faith that Stefanski will address that.

Also, Kevin, kick the flipping field goals.

Agreed.

Some people like to throw out the "Baker is a gunslinger" mantra. I don't really see that UNTIL he doesn't take the plays like the ones you mentioned. Not the/a "gunslinger" who wants to rip the ball downfield with frequency...but the/a "gunslinger" who will pass up on the easy play looking for the bigger play. That is actually my only criticism of Baker's (uninjured) play...and that has applied for his entire career. He will learn.

Not kicking the filed goal after the long, first-possession series was incredibly stupid. You can't come away with that "response" drive with zero points.

I also had issues with the empty backfield sets that we ran all too often. The OLine is dinged up...Baker's left shoulder has a harness on it...we have two all-Pro RBs on the team and a Felton. I don't see why we would EVER have an empty backfield set.

So far I've re-watched the first half of the Viking win. I'm putting these comments here because they are about Baker and something I noticed on our last possession of the first half. If you re-watch it, look for this soon after the Hunt rumble:

Baker throws a short out to his left to Higgins for a 1st down(?). That's a throw he makes in his sleep. He gets the completion, but the throw is high. Re-watch it a couple times and focus on Baker's hips and up. His feet look ok...he's loading up for the torque like he does when he's able and on...and then there is a hitch right before the right arm comes forward. The lower body momentum almost stops completely and he's throwing "all arm".

The next throw is in the endzone to OBJ. Way too high. I didn't notice the same hitch I did above, but the ball looks funky coming out of his hand...like Lamar threw the darn thing. He doesn't get his "rear" into the throw and "arms" it downfield.

Next throw is to the left again. Way over Hooper's head...all arm throw again.

Last throw before the FG kick is a longer throw to the left to Higgins...he "arms" it again and the throw is late and too wide (thank goodness).

I didn't really "watch" other throws in the first half like I did that last possession, but when he's in a spot to let it rip he's still ok...even if all arm. But, when he needs some "rear end" on his throws AND some touch...he's got problems...which is very un-Baker-like.

I don't think his "mechanics" are messed up...I don't think his mechanics get anymore goofy under pressure than they do for other really-good+ QBs...I think that shoulder harness and/or the pain is causing a hitch and he's throwing with "all arm" at times and has no idea how to adjust the throw for the needed 'touch' on the pass.

I may be completely wrong about what I saw and why...but I know I saw it.

Maybe some sort of ribs or back issue with that shoulder??

Could be...maybe the harness restricts the torso from torquing? Maybe there is some pain? Maybe it's in his head? I dunno.

I just know that that lead shoulder does quite a bit for the balance and follow-thru...restrict that shoulder and things get wonky very quickly.

I think there is something going on with his Footwork. I think he may be throwing off balance or off his wrong foot a little bit.

It's depressing watching the Monday night crew drool all over Justin Herbert.

Meanwhile, our 4th year QB is melting down before our eyes.

Baker is average. It is what it is. He's not good enough to win you a game but he's going to have enough good games to keep you competitive as long as the rest of the team is good.

After 20+ years of craptastic football that's not a bad place to be. But disappointing considering the guy was a number one overall pick.

It will be very interesting to see what Berry does.

Yeah boy .... I sure wish we had Brady Quinn ..... or Charlie Fry ...... or Tim Couch ......

I don't.

I feel like, despite all your denials, you dislike Baker, in a huge way.

He's going to ship OBJ before Baker, bank on that. Funny how Baker "is melting down" ONLY in games with OBJ... Hopefully what happens is they figure it out and fix it and we keep both STARS.

I like Baker. I dislike bad quarterback play.

I don't want to believe they can't play together but maybe you're right.

Odell should have had 200 yds and at least 2 tds on Sunday. He had 27 yds.

Go back and watch Baker on the plays Odell is in. I swear I saw him looking for OBJ to make a break and get open a couple times while missing wide open guys all over the field. That doesn't happen unless he's feeling pressure to get OBJ the ball. That pressure is coming from somewhere if I'm right. Go look and let me know what you think.

35 paragraphps basically in one rant.
I didn't read any of it. (some article)

Boy! The Haters are WORDY! Get your shots in while ya can haters!

OBJ was basically open all of the time.

Baker is just a bit off.

He will get it fixed

I feel like it's more just trying to needle posters and create contrived controversy. I mean how many times is it necessary to repeat your opinion that Baker is average and pronounce judgement on the guy ? I mean critique all you want, and he did have an absolute stinker vs the Vikings. . . But when the same poster is saying the same thing after two games and BM competition rate was over 80% ??? Whatever .... Then tonight Herbert looks great but missed a wide wide wide open Mike Williams on a throw the same poster claims "no professional QB should miss" or whatever the claim was.

The one play that really stuck out was the one where had had Felton basically right in front of him for a free 1st down and instead just... got tackled.

I don't know for sure, but it is possible that OBJ and/or Schwartz are not where they are supposed to be, when they are supposed to be there? Schwartz did miss most of training camp, and OBJ missed it all. (except for individual drills) Maybe miscommunication. Maybe Baker was throwing a back shoulder to OBJ on the play where OBJ was wide open? Who knows?

Don't worry about Rish. He has been down on Baker since before we drafted the guy, which is fine. We all have our own opinions.

You can just expect to hear him pipe up when Baker has a bad game....and I agree Baker had a bad game, so it is what it is and the Rish will speak.

It's been a while since baker had a bad game, so Rish has a lot of pent-up tongue lashing to release.

J/C
I've seen a lot of Browns football and this is the best Browns team I have seen since 1964. Best FO, best coaching staff, and best players. So Baker stunk it up on Sunday and I have no doubt that the organization will support him and the coaches and players will get to work and correct those problems. He will perform as we have become accustomed to seeing from him.

Just a couple of weeks ago Dawg Talkers and the fanbase at large were overreacting to the sluggish defense and that unit has responded. Stefanski, Baker, and the offense will figure it out.

Do not lose sight of the fact that this team has shown it can win even when the QB under performs. When was the last time that was true?

it's always possible, but given that Baker was so completely off on every pass, it makes it seem more likely that the issue was on Baker

I like that you referred to me as The Rish.

I am critical of Baker because my expectations are high for him. I expect a lot out of a number one overall pick and the guy we all want to be the guy for the next 10-15 years. What we saw on Sunday was very deflating if those are the expectations.

We are 4 games in, Baker has 2 td passes, and we are the only team in the league without a td pass to a WR. That is mind boggling to me.

I'll take 3-1. I just don't think it is sustainable with that kind of QB play and that is what is most concerning to me.

If I point it out a lot it's because that's what I am the most passionate about. We've been watching the NFL for a long time. We all know it's extremely tough to win it all without good QB play. I'd rather have great game changing QB play and top 10 to 15 defense than bad QB play and a top 3 defense. I think you have a better chance with the former than the latter.

We all want the same thing ...to win it all. I just subscribe to the notion that it is very unlikely to do so without a great QB.

You have high expectations, but you also say he's average and not good enough to win you a game.

You'll have to explain that one to me.


I live in Cinci these days, so I get to hear a LOT of Baker hate. Most of it has to do with OSU honks still crying into their sheets about Baker beating OSU and planting the flag.

That is a legitimate question. I can't reconciled those opposing points of view either.

RISH is wrong that Baker can't win you a game. The problem is that you never know if/when THAT version of Baker will show up, if you'll just be getting above avg. Baker, or garbage Baker. Consistency is a big deal, and so far, he has none.

I don't see how anyone can blame (or even mention) Odell regarding Sunday's game. That was 100% on Baker, and he was missing EVERYONE.

I will note 1 positive: even a single bad TO in that game, and we likely lose. So there's that. Someone said his throws were SO far off that even DBs didn't have a shot. LOL

Oh well, on to next week. Really tough opponents in the next 2 games where the passing game will have to be working...we need to win 1 of them. At some point this season, though, if Baker is still looking like this?...as much as we all love his toughness, joy of playing the game, and flashes of elite play, we might well have to take the wait-and-see/franchise route with his contract.

I agree, and I think that's something that bothers me when I see people (in the media and fans of other teams) refer to Mayfield as a "game manager." He is not a game manager. Andy Dalton is a game manager. You know what you're going to get with them every game, and it won't be spectacular, but it won't be bad either.

With Baker, you could get what you had with the Vikings, and you could get what you had in the second half of the Bengals game last year, and anything in between. He can play like Mahomes or he can play like Charlie Frye.

His arrow was consistently trending upward during the second half of last year, which was a positive. He has regressed over the past couple games and I'm hoping that it's a fluke or injury related. I'm hoping and thinking that he will return to trending back upward, but we still have recent data points that he's struggling.

In either event, he is not a game manager.

There is no QB that has ever played the game that can meet Rishuz's expectations.

Here's what happens. If Baker has a really good game he will dissect it to find any flaw. No matter how good the performance to minimize what Baker did in that game. If Baker has a bad game, he posts incessantly about Bakers poor performance. I honestly do not believe that anything Baker could do would satisfy him because he always picks every detail apart no matter what Baker does. It's like my uncle Dan Rosanna Danna says.....

That's if he shows up at all after a good Baker game. I don't recall any input from him when Baker was out on his own island on those efficiency charts.

Agree on that DAWGLOVER. He can be that in many games, but he can be more (and less). On the pure football side of things, I'm good rolling with him, and hoping that he hits a hot streak at the right time. But I definitely don't have the same faith others around here have. Baker's hot streak could come early instead, and then he could have a game like this, or a 2 pick, 2 funmble game in the playoffs.

I seem to recall even after the two starts and 80% completion - I saw comments about how average Baker was. So yes - even after the good performances there is nitpicking and BS. Herbert looked good last night - just like Baker has done in many games. But Herbert threw some very inaccurate balls too. The miss to a wide open Mike Williams where there wasn't anyone within 10+ yards of Mike was very reminiscent of Baker's multiple misses on Sunday .... it was a throw that was labelled as "no professional QB should ever throw" for Baker but only praise and drool for Herbert.

THE Rish...

This thread is insanity.

We are celebrating efficiency charts when he threw a pick on a game winning drive of one of those "efficiency" games.

Oy vey.

You go ahead and cherry-pick on the things that prove your point and I'll do the same, thank you.

And if Chubb hadn't fumbled, and if Gillan didn't mess up, no game winning drive needed, right? it's a TEAM sport.

Last year our schedule wasn't that difficult.

This year our schedule is way tougher.

Maybe Baker is just having some growing pains playing against harder opponents. And needs time to improve.

Just a random thought.

Would love to see him have a 4 td breakout game against the Bolts. He's due for a great game.

QBs I’d take over Baker as of 10/5/21:

Patrick Mahomes

Justin Herbert
Kyler Murray
Aaron Rodgers
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott

Josh Allen
Tom Brady

Joe Burrow
Lamar Jackson
Matt Stafford

Too close to call:
Derek Carr
Ryan Tannehill
Sam Darnold
Jalen Hurts

everyone else... no thank you

You, sir, are a homer.

I agree with U on one point, Bake has not led a comeback against a decent D, he has failed every time in that category, bringing up the come back against the bUngles D last year was no great accomplishment … things u need to take into account that your too impatient to consider …

there’s a limited sample size … how many chances has he had in total? … not that many … and I could care less about Bake not leading us back in his first two years against a good D … we had beyond major issues those first two years starting with BRUTAL OL’S and one WR in VG … we STUNK on so many levels … relying on a rookie QB and a 2nd year QB in his third system to lead u back against any D much less a good one is simply having UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS …

He’s also a pup as far as being in the same system … this is the first time he’s not in a new system including a mid season change in year 1 …. from his draft class Sam has been in a by far a worse situation … Allen and Lamar have been in the same system for 4 & 3 years respectively …. They should be further along than Bake in crunch time due to familiarity … That has to be taken into account …. It took Lamar two trips into the playoffs in the same system (I don’t count year 1 when he ran Flacco’s O) to get a W, Bake did it in his first trip …

In this years KC game i have zero problem with the pick, he got hit but a clutch QB makes the throw on the play before, granted it was a tough throw rolling to his left but he had a wide open Njoku I believe it was down the sideline and Bake under threw it by 10 yards … that one’s on him …

I’m also not afraid YET that Bake is a choke … look at LeBruan in his first two championship runs he was a choke carried by Wade and crap I can’t remember the other dudes name then LaBraun became the man … some need time to grow into that roll .. and I’m not saying Bake’s a choke the sample size is simply to small … we’ll find out over the course of the next two seasons ….

Saying bake is an average QB is literally a JOKE and just shows your impatience at this point …

Breaking Bake down and before i begin I am THRILLED to have him as our QB especially on this team …. He has the best roster in the NFL around him … BAR NONE! We don’t need him to be Joe Montana but we will need him to bring us back in a playoff game against a good D something neither Lamar or Josh have done even though U heap praise on Lamar as this great come from behind QB … … completing a 4th and 20 against that D and having the best FG kicker in the history of the game break the record with a 64 yarder isn’t exactly a glowing accomplishment …

- he is incredibly accurate and can make any throw …. On the other hand he has very little to no touch … positives way outweigh the negatives … he can make throws most QB’s can’t …. the touch is what will keep him from being great IMO but he is all ready above average ….

- he is a leader, his teammates love him and that is HUGE ….

- he has the best run game in the NFL with a decent pass blocking OL … that opens a lot up for any QB

- he is very good when rolling right and very bad when rolling left (if he was rolling right I’d bet my last dollar he makes that throw in the KC game)

- he is a competitor which is a good thing … i wish he would avoid the hits when running as he's pretty smart and for a yard or two that’s INCREDIBLY STUPID!

- he’s mobile but not fast, he moves around in the pocket just fine …

- he’s short and thats obviously a negative …

- he’s in year 4 and for the first time he’s in the same system he was the year before … that’s HUGE for development …

He has his faults and shortcomings just like all but a select few do and he needs to continue to grow just like all 4th year QB’s … he has the arm talent and the surrounding cast to do it with ….

BOTTOME LINE: He has the ability right now to LEAD THIS TEAM TO A SB VICTORY and that’s all that matters ….

Baker will be fine. Some of the fans who rag on him were big Derek Anderson fans. Hahaha.

Seriously, I can’t imagine that it’s not an injury thing. My biggest complaint about him is that he doesn’t protect himself. That’s just being stupid. He needs to get over the compulsion to be the tough guy all the time.

Having a chance to go back in time to some reactions to the week after the opening day loss, of 2020, maybe it was a different loss, maybe it was a different game of 2020, there were some who wanted to switch qbs after a bad game. Well later games had better play by the QB.

But! He wasn't injured, and he wasn't playing behind an injured left tackle.

Mayfield was sacked 5 times by the Bears! What are the Browns doing to provide pass protection???

Playing him behind three banged up starting linemen. I think he got the yips from being sacked so many times this year.

If your quarterback gets the yips from being sacked too many times in a few games then you need a new quarterback.

I think to this point in his career Baker Mayfield has shown to be a good QB. Not an elite QB, but a good one. When he has time to throw and he is on his game, he can be as good as anyone. He is streaky though, he will have stretches of phenomenal play followed by stretches of abysmal play.

The key thing to remember is that he is currently playing in the most talented, highest-paid offense in the NFL, complete with a head coach calling the plays that just won Coach of the Year. Can we win an SB this year with Baker? I think we definitely can, but moving forward the answer is not so clear.

Baker is the worst QB in the NFL when under pressure. He gets jittery and nervous when a slight breeze blows by him in the pocket. If we are going to pay him 40M per year we probably are not going to be able to afford the #1 Offensive line in the league. Who knows how long we can keep the 2-headed monster we currently have at running back either. Baker has not shown himself to be NEAR good enough to win an SB while being the focal point of an offense.

The fantastic thing is that the Browns organization is no longer a dumpster fire, but the model the rest of the league is trying to catch up with. Unlike the past couple of decades, we actually have the capital to move on from a middle-of-the-road QB if and when we deem it necessary. I'll trust our Front Office to make the right choice when a choice needs to be made, but for now, Go Browns!

JC...

Baker has a top 3 OL core, top 3 RB core, top 3 WR core, and probably a top 5 TE core...He is in his second year of a system, that he has familiarity with from the year prior....Oh yeah, and his HC won coach of the year last year. However he (Baker) has struggled mightily.

This offense was supposed to be a juggernaut and put points up through the air...only the ground game is really putting up our points...We have too many potent pieces for this air game to be struggling so badly.

I cannot tell you why Baker is playing so off...Could be anything at this juncture. From just eyes alone...He doesn't look comfortable, and it seems his passes are coming out off (on replays last week, a ton of his passes were awful ducks...which I can't recall him ever throwing so much awful projected passes in one game) I am no QB guru, but coaches really need to get him on track. I want Baker to reclaim himself, and lord knows...I don't want to have to go searching for a QB in the draft anytime soon.

I am in hopes, that coach and Baker get this figured out....Because there is no excuse for this passing game to be so bleak. Not with all that talent, that is set before Baker.

Very good. Elite no. Real strategist. Serviceable.
(Good to have ya back.)

I think there is no way the Browns can win a Super Bowl this year with Baker Mayfield as the Qb, but that is a very unpopular opinioin, and I hope I'm wrong, hope it with my heart. so shhhh.

And it has nothing to do with bad play this week, everything to do with never seeing the Browns current offense do what Carr did as the Raiders forced OT with that FG after two snaps! in week 1 MNF. And other teams that can do similar things to that.

Baker started to look poor after the shoulder injury.

I hope it is a self healing injury and not something that requires surgery. I suspect he will look better and back to normal when he gets back to normal.

j/c

Baker has a lot of talent around him, not the least of which is the OL and RB which I wouldn't trade with anyone other team --- but I think we need to dial back some of the talk about "top WR's" and "top TE" support. There are a lot of teams with a set of WR's I'd happily trade for. One of them is in our division.

PFF has CLE WR ranked way down at 14th ... you may not agree with that. But Top 3?? No way. And while I like all 3 of the TE's - none of them is a legit TE stud. Again - using PFF as a guide - they have our best TE ranked 17th best in the NFL.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-tight-end-rankings-2021-nfl-season

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-all-nfl-receiving-corps-ahead-of-the-2021-season

That's just nuts. I see 3 on your list that I would contemplate only if I had to.

Then, you sir, are a homer.

SO. You sir are a hater.

How so? I said Baker is the 12th best QB in the league (13th if you include DeShaun Watson). I think that’s pretty generous. Also, I compliment Baker profusely when he does well.

What you think and what I think don't jive, Mr. Hater. Baker is top 5 in my book, and definitely no less than top ten. Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Baker, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Matt Stafford, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow is the order I grade your top list in, I wouldn't even bother with the last 4, they are all above average scrubs.

This is straight nuts.

This is from before the season:

Mike Sando did his QB tiers on The Athletic.

Quote:
The all-star voting panel included seven general managers, five head coaches, 11 coordinators, 15 executives, seven quarterbacks coaches and five others working in front offices or in other coaching capacities.


Because it is a subscription site I won't post the whole thing but I'll post the order and Baker's write up.

Tier 1 - "A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game."

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Patrick Mahomes
3. Tom Brady
4. Russell Wilson
5. DeShaun Watson

Tier 2 - "A Tier 2 quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game."

6. Josh Allen
7. Lamar Jackson
8. Matthew Stafford
9. Dak Prescott
10. Justin Herbert
11. Matt Ryan
12. Kyler Murray
13. Ryan Tannehill
14. Joe Burrow

Tier 3 - "A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best."

15. Derek Carr
16. Ben Roethlisberger
17. Baker Mayfield
18. Kirk Cousins
19. Jared Goff
20. Carson Wentz
21. Jimmy Garoppolo
22. Daniel Jones
23. Ryan Fitzpatrick

Tier 4 - "A Tier 4 quarterback could be an unproven player with some upside or a veteran who is ultimately best suited as a backup."

24. Sam Darnold
25. Jameis Winston
26. Teddy Bridgewater
27. Cam Newton
28. Andy Dalton
29. Tua Tagovailoa
30. Jalen Hurts
31. Drew Lock
32. Tyrod Taylor
33. Taysom Hill
34. Joe Flacco

About Baker:

Quote:
Tier 2 votes: 17 | Tier 3 votes: 33 | 2020 Tier: 3

Voters like Mayfield. Most also see the supporting cast and offensive coaching helping him more than the other way around. Dividing credit along those lines makes it tougher for some to place Mayfield in Tier 2.

“Baker is probably in the 2 category, but you don’t really know with him,” an evaluator said. “You know they got a new head coach and they called it right, but they also didn’t do as much as they could have done with a legit QB.”

This evaluator compared Mayfield to prime Cincinnati Andy Dalton, but when Dalton was at his best, in 2015, his Bengals ranked fifth on defense and special teams. Mayfield’s Browns were 24th last season and still went 11-5. A different evaluator put it another way, calling Mayfield more point guard than shooting guard, but a GM called Cleveland the greatest threat to Kansas City in the AFC, thanks in part to Mayfield.

“He does benefit from a great offensive line, he has a great running game, but I do think he makes that thing go,” this GM said. “When Odell (Beckham) got hurt and they started to take off, I think that was because Baker could be more of himself. If you truly are a product of the talent that is out there, and are truly a 3, when you lose an all-pro receiver, your play should tail off. But his play improved when they relied on him to use other weapons.”

The schedule was a factor. Cleveland played a disproportionate number of games against top defenses early in the season, before Beckham was injured.

“Mayfield can throw an 18-yard deep curl route like it’s a hitch — it’s that easy for him,” a former offensive coordinator said. “The problem just comes in with the vision sometimes. He’s so accurate, and I think he’s settled down. They didn’t give him the contract yet, so they got the leash tight and should get the best of him — he wants the contract and wants to be thought of in that way. He’s figured it out. It will be about winning, all about ball.”

Mayfield’s 2020 numbers closely resembled 2019 numbers for Cousins: within two completions and 50 yards, with the same number of touchdown passes. Mayfield had two additional interceptions, two fewer sacks, two additional completions longer than 15 yards and a similar EPA per attempt. A common denominator: Browns coach Kevin Stefanski called pays for both.

“I think Baker is more talented than the guys Stefanski had in Minnesota, and then he has the leadership, he is one of the guys and he can extend plays better,” a defensive coordinator said.

Not that “better than Cousins” is necessarily the goal.

“I don’t think they see him as being special in any category,” a former head coach said. “He is good enough because of what they do. Baker has more grit than Cousins, and he is going to play better in critical situations. He’s accurate, but not exceptional.”

I was talking cores, not the individuals per say. (Hooper, Njoku, Bryant) vs say whom they have ranked at #4 Kyle Pitts...So Falcons core (Kyle Pitts, Haden Hurst, Keith Smith) vs ours...Pff was grading only the individual TEs...And trust me, there's no way I would ever say Hoop is a top 5 TE (I actually wasn't thrilled of his signing, as he was only merely good-very good...while getting an elite contract) and top 5 TE core, may be a little off for me...But we for sure have a top 10 core on hand.

WR cores I did totally forget about Tampa, and their depth numbers there, and the Cowboys as well...ditto with Cincy, heck Auden Tate barely sees the field for them. However PFF rankings on there are a little suspect, as they are including TEs in their WR groupings. Which is throwing some things off. They also have the dolphins WR core above us...which I'd take our core over there's all day. And heck the Titans at #5 (Titans have absolutely no one behind Julio and AJ...and it showed last week, they are basically running with practice squad prototypes out there) But from top to bottom our core has to be top 10 all day...(probably right that they may not be a top 5 core...but close)

Regardless, you put our top 3 OL core, top 3 RB core (which he may have the best core in the league), Top 10 TE core, Top 10 WR core into say Lamar Jacksons lap....that's an easy super bowl projection there ( I mean obviously defense matters...I'm just talking terms on our offensive woes we have-aerial)

I really like Baker.... no way he's top 5 right now in the league..... I think he's a solid QB and has the moxy this team needed to get going in the right direction.... not sure he's the long term answer, but I'm overall happy with his play this year...

Minn was a rough game... hoping he plays better this weekend.

Is it possible that this might actually be the problem?

Our run game is dialed in because we consistently hand the rock off to 1 of 2 players, Chubb or Hunt. We don't cycle through 7 or 8 different guys who can run the ball. There is a consistency in that part of the offense.

In the receiving game when we talk about a particular WR or TEs production, we often view it through the lense of maybe not enough balls to go around.

But what if we view the same issue from the position of the QB? Maybe there are too many people to get the ball to?

Most QBs find rhythm with there #1 and #2 WR, and hope they can trust #3 WR to be where he needs him in a pinch. They have rhythm with usually just the #1 TE. Normally we don't expect the QB to have the same relationship with the #4,5 and 6 WRs etc.

But because we have such ridiculous depth on our roster, we expect Baker to have the same relationship with the #1 through 6 WR and #1 through 3 TE. That's 9 pass catchers.

Baker certainly has other areas to work on but I wonder if expecting him to have such well developed 'relationships' with so many different pass catchers isn't stretching him a bit thin.

No. He’s either the best or the worst. Try again!

Remember when Peyton Manning had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Edgerrin James and he was terrible because they were all too good?

It's the expression of nervous/anxious energy along with the fact we KNOW he can be better, yet here we are looking at the prospect of this one thing unraveling what should be an epic season.


It's keeping it interesting and fun, lol

I just hope Baker wakes up Sunday morning feeling “dangerous”.

LOL....I don't know about that one way or the other, but when you get right down to the matter, every incomplete pass thrown is a potential TD pass missed...lol

I think you may be on to something here it's a lot for one person, and as you mentioned perhaps it's simply to much???

One big issue I see with Sando's article is that he has Lamar in tier 2 but his description of tier 3 is exactly what Lamar is.

Nearly the very same list of morons pushing their agenda.

They would rather see the Browns loss then win I swear.

JAYBIRD,

Piggybacking on what you said, maybe in the same way that it took Sashi>Dorsey>Berry to get this sorry organization turned around, it's gonna take more than just Baker to get us all the way to SB contention. No doubt in my mind he was the right guy at the right time for us, but 5 years later? Maybe not so much.

Baker can put all the doubt to rest, but it is up to him...his fans cannot do it for him.

j/c:

It's not like Baker can't be good. He's shown that he can. The ability is there he just has to work through the problems he's having now. He has the ability and coaching to do it.

Ouch. I'm going to go throw up now.

Can we have anything nice?

He’s just a hater. How dare he question the best QB in the league?

Bingo. He’s just not good right now, that doesn’t mean he can’t be good.

Sando doesn’t have him anywhere. People in the league are surveyed and place him where they think he belongs. Sando just puts it in an article.

Game four is in the books. The Browns are 3-1.

Game FOUR.

What is all this ranking business? Game Four.

Why not rank them after game ONE when Aaron Rodgers was the worst?

Damn let the season play out.

What happened after game 8 last year? Baker was top three the rest of the year.

So now Murray and Herbert are the MVP's? Wait that award is handed out after the season is OVER.

Other than having a bad game. Baker is our quarterback. He is the leader of the Cleveland Browns. The players love the guy. The coaches love the guy.

After all the pure garbage we have had at quarterback people are questioning this guy? Do the Browns go to the playoffs last year without Baker?

Take a deep breath. We face the Chargers this week.

Baker is starting. He will start all season unless he gets hurt. Oh wait, does Baker get hurt?

How about we see what happens this year? Far as I can tell the Browns have one of the best teams in football.
We can win a Super Bowl. That could happen.

And if it does Baker will be our quarterback.

Honesty, Consistency, and Completeness Paramount in Discussing Baker Mayfield
It's perfectly fine to have a discussion about Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield, as long as it's intellectually honest.

SAM PENIX

The current discourse surrounding Baker Mayfield is filled with dishonesty, inconsistency, and reductionism.

The Cleveland Browns may be 3-1, but they are winning in spite of quarterback Baker Mayfield, not because of him. He's played quite poorly overall over the past three weeks, and while the Browns won all three games, this is the same situation the team was in for the first chunk of the 2020 campaign. Only this time, certain excuses don't apply to Mayfield.

He's no longer adjusting to a brand-new offensive system coming off the COVID-19 offseason. And he is attempting to follow up a brilliant stretch to close off 2020, where, after Week 6, he was as good as any other passer in the NFL, and was truly elite from Week 13 on.

He looked fantastic against the Kansas City Chiefs, but his performance has plummeted since then, and while the stats may not look terrible, the film shows a player who looks uncomfortable, inconsistent, and perhaps most importantly, injured.


An ill-advised throw against the Houston Texans led to an interception and Mayfield suffered a shoulder injury while attempting to make the tackle. It was his left (non-throwing) shoulder, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect his throwing ability.

As much as Kevin Stefanski, Mayfield, or "sources" want to suggest otherwise, the chances of Mayfield actually experiencing no pain, discomfort, or changes to his mechanics due to his shoulder injury are slim to none. The mere presence of the brace should be enough to disprove this talking point, but it's clear when watching the offense play that Stefanski is unable to call his full array of schemes. Rollouts, a staple of Mayfield's excellent play in 2020, have not disappeared from the playbook entirely, but they have been called noticeably less frequently since the injury.

If Stefanski is changing his offense, and Mayfield is struggling to throw the ball accurately, then maybe his shoulder is actually an issue. It's not an excuse; his pocket presence is poor right now, as are his lower body mechanics, and he isn't reading the field well. But it is one reason for this rut. One of many.

Here is a non-comprehensive list of some of the things affecting Mayfield right now:

Shoulder injury

Footwork

Pocket presence

Improper reads and unwillingness to take the easy throw

Lack of trust in Donovan Peoples-Jones and Anthony Schwartz

Continual implementation of Odell Beckham Jr.

Absence of Jarvis Landry

Starting left tackle Jedrick Wills Jr. playing on a bum ankle

Backup LT Chris Hubbard injured and inactive

Third and fourth-string LTs (Blake Hance and James Hudson) providing rough play

Wyatt Teller regressing to the mean

Jack Conklin reportedly playing hurt and is a shell of his typical All-Pro self

Uncharacteristic and seemingly random mistakes from the entire offense in key situations (4th down, for example)

These are not excuses. Mayfield's poor play is unacceptable, and is not the kind of performance that a player seeking $45 million-plus annually can afford to put up. It also doesn't mean he's a bust, that he shouldn't be extended, that he can't bounce back, or that he was never good.

Everything was lined up for Mayfield to play extremely well this season, and that's why it's so disappointing to see him struggle so badly; he had one of his worst outings as a pro against the Minnesota Vikings, missing throw after throw and costing Beckham a massive game.

Speaking of Beckham, the assertion that he is somehow responsible for Mayfield's poor play is asinine. There is a difference between correlation and causation, and Beckham does not have some mystical aura surrounding him that causes Mayfield to suddenly forget how to play quarterback when OBJ is on the field. All he does is get open at an extremely high rate. It's up to Mayfield to get him the ball.

Mayfield has not been inaccurate only when throwing to Beckham. He's missing everyone right now, and seems to be too eager to scramble, when he is far from a scrambling quarterback. He also does not trust his offensive line at the moment, as he is bailing from pockets and rolling to his right rather than stepping up and avoiding pressure from the pocket.

It was not so long ago that Mayfield was playing better football than he ever had in his life. That player did not just disappear, and he didn't just all of a sudden become bad for no apparent reason. It's fair to question whether he is a consistent enough passer to warrant a massive contract, but acting like he isn't capable of making just about every throw at a high level is just ignoring the truth.

One can be dissatisfied and concerned with Mayfield, while acknowledging there are plenty of reasons for his current situation and while having confidence he can and will overcome them. The first step is to get him healthy, and if that requires shutting him down for a game or two, so be it. The offense around the QB position is good enough to win with Case Keenum, and the defense has simply dominated the past two weeks.

Next, Mayfield needs to become comfortable in the pocket once again. And maybe that won't happen until his bookends are both healthy and playing like the great players they are.

He needs to fix is footwork and mechanics so he'll stop missing high, which is a phase he goes through every now and then. There isn't any reason to think that won't go away, either. It always has before.

Finally, Mayfield needs to read the field better. He's not seeing the open receiver, especially downfield, which is almost always Beckham. He isn't forcing the ball to Beckham or focusing on him too much, as many would assert; if that were the case, Mayfield's numbers would look significantly better, because despite garnering a great deal of attention, Beckham is still getting open as well as he ever has.

Let's be honest about what Mayfield has been over the past three games, and also about the player he has proven he can be. Let's be consistent about applying a standard to Mayfield, regardless of how well he actually has to play in order to win. And let's not reduce a complex problem with many different valuables down to an easy cop-out answer that isn't representative of what's actually happening.

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-mav...cy-completeness

That's certainly a very honest and spot on assessment.

J/C


All quarterbacks have crap games. All quarterbacks miss throws. And as one of his biggest fans, he flat out stunk Sunday. One game isn't going to change my stance on Baker.

As far as taking other quarterbacks over Baker, we should take just about 90% of the quarterbacks in the league based on Sunday's performance. Is he the worst under pressure? I don't think too many saw the Browns pressure Fields if they answer yes.

... if we're basing this off one game.

Regardless, the Browns still won. Which for some isn't good enough. We used to lose ugly and I'm happy to win ugly.

I'm not happy with Baker's performance. I'm sure he's not, OBJ is not, Coach Stefanski is not. However, he's our guy, and he's going to be our guy for a long long time. And I still firmly believe he will reach that elite status everyone covets. He's got what it takes.

It's the Joe Woods story all over again. Fickle fans who change depending on which way the wind is blowing at the time.

eh, not really fickle... it's just fans that want players to play to their abilities every time it matters. If people didn't know Baker can and SHOULD be so much better, it would be a bit different.

It is fair game when the sample size can say something.

But damn we are four games into the season.

If it becomes a trend and they are losing because he stinks. Then go ahead a crucify him.

It is not like we have the answer on the bench.

Baker has proven himself in the NFL. Has he been perfect? Hardly. Has he been consistent? Sometimes.

But I have no problem with him as our quarterback. He is a winner. He works his butt off. He is a team player. He plays hurt. He is a leader.

I support the guy.

We'll see how the wind blows when he does play better. My point is that as soon as someone has a bad game or two the critics pile on. As soon as they have a good few games everything is peaches and cream. That's the very definition of fickle.

adjective

changing frequently, especially as regards one's loyalties, interests, or affection.

being critical when he plays bad and not being critical when things are going well is not being fickle. It's literally just calling it as it is.

If he's not playing to his abilities and expectations, then he has earned the criticism.
Fickle would be when nothing else changes, you flip back and forth as to whether or not he's good enough.

From reading the board it seems to me that more people have come to the conclusion he's not good enough after the last two games.

Heck, I've been critical of his performance. I think we are talking about two different groups of people here.

I agree Bone and Pitt. The critics always show up at the 1st sign of trouble.

I have never seen a QB yet though that didn't get criticized when they didn't perform up to snuff.

Even the GOAT has been written off a few times, so I kind of take it all with a grain of salt.

And let's face it the people on here know something, not nearly as much as they think BTW, but the folks that really know are handling this and if I was a betting man I would place a sizable bet on Baker bouncing back in a big way.

I feel this will be a big big motivator for him, and he loves to prove his critics wrong. Look out Bolts is all I will say...

Well done!

I've counted a grand total of 2 people (maybe 3) on here that have said anything beyond constructive criticism. Saying his performance over the past 2 weeks isn't going to cut it, and going into why said performance was bad isn't anywhere near over the top (IMO). It's earned criticism.

Baker has shown he can improve, and he's shown he can do so within the season. In fact, I think he's starting to develop a bit of a tendency to start the season slow/rough and iron things out over the first quarter of the season (or so). It happened in the Freddie year, and it happened like that last year.

That's constructive criticism.

Lol! If you're talking about my second post, and that's your definition of 'constructive criticism', then I I'm beginning to see the issue in these types of threads.

I've actually criticized his performance myself. That's not the issue.

well, then make the damn play, Bake.

If your footwork is fine, then why are your passes sailing high all season? Literally from Game 1, he's been sailing them high.

Ehh, it doesn't matter... just get it done.

We get plenty of that from Throw, don't ya think.....

He has the right approach. Don't make excuses and come out next game looking to bounce back. That's all you can really ask for.

I wonder if he's including weight distribution in his definition of "footwork"...because some of those throws I saw were when he was still distributing his weight on the back foot. You could tell the ball was going to sail as soon as he let it go.

R-E-L-A-X

Not sure what you are getting at with this one?

Baker will feel more comfortable in the Pocket, if Chris Hubbard gets back to health and helps out the OL around him.
Browns should hope for the long health and playing availability of Chris Hubbard.

I guess we live in a social media driven world now - so despite me preferring he just got on and did it, I guess I understand that this is a whole different generation. Having said that - I do love his attitude and grit.

One thing we know that Baker has always been really good at is spreading the ball around. Aside from maybe his rookie year where IIRC he worked the center of the field a lot, he's throwing to all areas and hitting quite a few different receivers.

The ability to do that and have that many people who can catch the ball has lead to a passing offense (until recently) that is controlled, efficient and difficult to predict.

But I'm starting to wonder if it might be prevent our passing game from being dominant? We don't have an established QB+WR or QB+TE pairing that we can reasonably and rightly predict will net a 100+ yrd pass catching day.

I'm not complaining. What we have now is massively better than what we've had before.

Last year. Njoku, Hooper, Landry Higgins DPJ.
5 ain't broken.

j/c

The Baker-Baker Paradox.

I was listening to the radio in the car the other day and I had to laugh ... they were talking about memory and how the brain works, and they have this thing called 'The Baker, baker paradox". Obviously we have a bit of a paradox with our Baker since at the moment we aren't sure which version will show up on Sunday ... And that's probably where the correlation ends but this was 2 days after Baker's woes against the Vikings so it made me chuckle and I figured I would share.

If anyone is interested:
https://medium.com/the-book-mechanic/the...ry-dab8c09ad9e4

The baker-Baker paradox is road-worn psychology test, where a group of test subjects is divided into two teams. There are many versions of this test, but they all work the same way. One group of test subjects is given the picture of a person’s face and told the person’s last name is Baker. The second group of test subjects is shown the same person’s face. This time, the group is told the person in the photo is a baker.
A few days later the two groups of test subjects are re-tested. The group given the photo-vocation combination had a much higher recall rate, remembering the person was a baker, than the abysmal results from the group who had to remember the person’s name was Baker.

Not a big fan of the social media and Instagram posts. Reeks of insecurity to me.

Just play better.

j/c:

For that to come out now - reeks of excuses.

j/c:



That's pretty good.

https://twitter.com/923TheFan/status/1446444164699279360

Lol

2nd Year Herbert > 4th Year Mayfield.

Herbert wasn't that good. I thought he would be better.

Smh

And it’s not close.

This doesn’t mean Baker is bad, it means he’s not the second best QB in the league.

I love our staff and I think overall they have done a tremendous job with not just Baker but the entire team.

That said I think one of their goals this year was to make Baker much more of a pocket passer, and I see that as a huge mistake.

Yesterday they moved him around and when on the move the guy makes great throws, I know or am confident that the idea of making Baker a pocket passer has to have lost it's appeal at this juncture as it should.