He has had 4 years to to show what he has made of.
He can be labeled a official bust now.
His mental lapses and lack of drive headline what
Is wrong with him. Yet the Browns picked up his 5th year
Option. Money not well spent.
If Wills played for a playoff contender he would be benched
By now

Yeah, great start for Wills. After 2 weeks, he has a PFF grade of 45.0 and is the 67th rated tackle through 2 weeks. His 14.124M is fully guaranteed next season too. But hey - he's serviceable I've been told.

Servicing or serviceable?

Never mind.

I said in gameday, let Dunn play guard, move bitonio to LT and end the Wills experiment. He is really really bad. He can't handle speed at all

Wills has been lousy.

In the first game, his guy beats him and Wills shoves him into Conklin's knee ending his season. Against the Steelers, gets toasted off the line leading to Watson getting the ball stripped out of his hand and then the scoop and score.

I would like to hear an honest appraisal of him from Callahan. Callahan can make practice squad guys into legit starters and he hasn’t been able to make a first-rounder from Alabama a decent player. Yet, he must have had a say in giving him the fifth-year option.

He lacks heart and effort

Wouldn't waste giving him a crown for anything

Now a boot may be more fitting

his thing is mostly effort and consistency. He seems to take a lot of plays off especially when he's tired

Jones might be the OL that I'm least worried about right now. They all looked pretty lousy. They might have to take a page out of Ohio State's recent OL playbook and focus on "bringing the violence."

It also doesn't help the looks of things when your QB ends up being responsible for 4 out of 6 sacks.

I think our entire offensive line including Wills are much better run blockers than pass blockers. I don't think I will label him a bust. An average Tackle yes. If I remember correctly, he was right tackle in college that we moved to the left side. He might be better suited for right tackle than left.

I think if Watson can settle his butt down in the pocket and the line continues to gain familiarity with his tendencies (he's a more mobile QB) then they'll start looking much better.

Maybe, Oober. Doesn't look like a natural pocket passer. Might as well roll him out; at least that way he is already running when the rush arrives, and his O line has some idea where his and will be. Stoolers showed the way to pressure us (actually, lots of ways). Our OC didn't seem to adjust. Not a giggle, but it is ironic to note, with the talent and hype for DW and this line and these receivers, well, anybody has to admit we certainly showed a lot of upside potential. We didn't adjust much, didn't look ready, and mentally flopped. Fumbless and flags are mostly mental mistakes.

They were giving up early pressure on the inside. A lot of the time there wasn't a pocket to get comfortable in. I don't know if they were trying to give Jones help that he didn't seem to need or what, but it seemed the IOL were almost pulling on pass plays at times and defenders were just coming straight through the vacated space in the middle. Even when Watson "had time", he was frequently moved off of his spot and the timing of his footwork and the routes were off kilter. At least that is how it seemed live. I need to watch again to really try to figure out what exactly was going on, but not sure I'm up for that yet.

How many of these happened after he avoided sacks the OL would have been responsible for?

I'm not sure on the number. It felt like he was moved off of his spot a lot. It's hard to make reads while avoiding rushers.

Watson was definitely not good. The line also did very little to help allow him to be so. There was lots of bad on O all around.

I know you love to use semantics as a means to avoid things. But saying he was responsible means he walked right into them. Since it seems you're trying to change the scoreboard here you must also account for the times he held the ball so long. The NFL average time a QB has protection to get rid of the ball has been posted on this board many times. If your QB keeps staying back there holding the ball the OL shouldn't be blamed for that. You may wish to take those times into account. Or maybe not.

I prefer to look at context to try to understand things. You seem to love to use vague generalities, flat out inaccurate characterizations, and straw man arguments to support agendas. You may think you are using "stats" and "facts," but, even if they are, they aren't worth anything when used in those straw man arguments.

Does "saying he was responsible" actually mean "he walked right into them" as you say? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Where are you getting your numbers and how do they actually define the "responsibility stat?" I'm guessing there is a time element involved, as you eventually get to, but a QB isn't always the reason the ball is held. They don't have/use the option of holding receivers responsible for not being open. Sometimes the QB is "missing" (not seeing) open receivers because the timing of the play is spoiled by pressure. Sometimes its not just one thing. There is a time to pass stat. There is also a time to pressure stat. They can be inversely related. If a QB is under duress before the hot read can even get open, the ball can't come out quick and the QB is going to be running for his life. He'll be holding the ball while doing this and if he scrambles for a long time it will have a large effect on his time to throw stat. You can get it out in 2.2 seconds 10 times, but throw in one 10 second scramble play and the average jumps to 2.9 seconds. Players that have "scrambling ability" will frequently have higher time to throw stats for this reason. Perhaps having a stat that looked at the mode (as in mean, median, and mode-- most frequent) of a QB's pass times would be a helpful complement to the average.

I'm not trying to change the scoreboard, I'm trying to look beyond it. Some people are box score scouts. Some aren't. I'm not. You seem to be.

It is what it is. For me, box score scouting (or "stat" scouting) is annoying. Some people appear to need the simplicity, and/or for other people to do their thinking/work. For me, simplicity is insufficient, especially when upon further examination the simplicity appears to mislead or at best not really tell one a whole lot.

*shrug* I'm going through the ALL-22 now.

Yes he is a bust. Even as an Alabama fan, I have to agree with that.

Still trying to dance around it I see. It was posted on this very board with a link.

He's certainly disappointing. That said, I think there's still value there. Using my crystal ball, I don't see him as our starting LT next season, but I also don't necessarily think he should be bumped off the roster. There's room for 'mostly-competent' offensive tackles on just about any roster (and now that I say that, I realize he'd need a new contract so I bet he gets signed away from us in the off-season).

If it was in the post game thread, I avoided the thread entirely expecting it to be a lot of angry/depressed venting. I'm not sure I'll go back through the 100 some posts there, especially when I see the type of posts I expected to see there still happening all over the boards.

I don't dance. I try to look beyond the knee jerk surface reactions. I prefer "stories" to "math problems." Especially when those "stats"/"math problems" don't tell the whole story.

I look for the Why and How and try to figure out what can potentially be done about it. Meanwhile you're busy harping about the surface basics that everybody with eyes already knows. Yes, those are the stats. But, it's not always easy to determine what those stats should actually be telling you. There's a reason lots of aspects of sport are considered more art than science.

Rather than dig into things and try to figure things out, you seem to just spend all your time stirring up animosity or trying to change the subject or repeating the obvious. Unfortunately, its really hard for me to ignore you when you're replying to my posts. I kind of wish when you had someone on ignore it straight up didn't show that they had posted. I'm a digger. Give me something to open up, I'm going to click it.

I seem to understand that the people who come up with those numbers look at the "Why and How" those sacks happened when assigning blame rather than be someone who claims they're the only people who do that. It's sad that you think people who do this for a living aren't the diggers and only you are. And just like a lot of people, those who pose and opposing view are people you would rather not interact with and only wish to look at those who agree with you. That works well to achieve confirmation bias which seems to be what you're looking for here.

I never claimed that I was the only one. Way to go straw man and personal and made up.

I never claimed they weren't diggers. However, there is collecting data, and there is providing context. They may have more context than they provide with their statistics. That is a reality with statistics, they are ultimately simplifications. If you're working in a system that requires blame to be assigned to one individual, it has a different perspective than one trying to look at all contributing factors. They are providing a numbers based product. It has its uses. It is not the be all, end all. Football's not a math problem. It's not played on a spreadsheet.

You don't present an opposing view. You present a statistic with little to no accompanying explanation of your view. You point to your "facts"/statistics as proof against opposing views that those "facts" don't actually do anything to address. I'm not looking for confirmation bias, I'm looking for another angle worth looking at that I haven't thought of. "This is the stat" doesn't provide any angles nor insight.

I present the view that people who do this for a living are better at formulating these things than people on a message board. I also present the view that you have only brought up questioning others without showing any evidence to counter their statistics. It's very easy for someone to sit and question people without actually providing any answers themselves or counter what they said based on any evidence to the contrary. It's the world we live in now. It's the world of "Yeah, but."

I'm not trying to formulate statistics. I'm not trying to "counter their statistics." I'm trying to look at the rest of the story.

We live in a world of gotcha BS, sound bytes, one liners, tweets, and misinformation. Those are your go to devices.

We could use a world where people question all the faulty assumptions and number toting sociopaths.

Then please tell us "the rest of the story." It seems questioning the results without providing anything to counter them is "your go to device".

A lot of the rest of the story is posted in different threads. Go find it. (Yes, that's referring to your "its posted on this board with a link" earlier)

If you can't see what's being provided, that's on you.

You didn't provide it to begin with. Only placing blame on others.

He might not be joe Thomas, but he is currently part of the O Line that has us 2nd in rushing.

He doesn’t deserve the bust label.

Hopefully that ranking will stay up there without Chubb.

As long as Stefanski doesn’t get pass happy, and Watson stops running into sacks.

J/c

I'll just leave this here. Emphasis on Schwartz's last sentence.



Not showing up for me for some reason. Here's the quote:


link

End of the day, the other players that played poorly only contributed to the loss but did not cause it. The loss was squarely on Watson and Ski, period. And I doubt you will see either trying to take the full responsibility.

I take it you didn't watch the post game press conferences?

I agree.

Some tend to throw around the "bust" label with ease. He may not be what we hoped, but he isn't a bust.

It may go down some. Chubb was better than most, but I doubt we all of a sudden get stonewalled in the running game.

I did watch them. DW and Ski said the right things, but I didn’t and don’t believe they are sincere. Especially DW, after some of his ongoing remarks.

If you saw it and he literally said he took full blame, why would you write that you doubt you will see either trying to take the full responsibility? If you didn't think he was sincere, why not just say that in the first place? Doubting that you will see what you allegedly had already seen seems a bit... contradictory.

I think you just don't like Watson, and that's fine. You definitely wouldn't be alone in those feelings.

Some people hear sincere, some don't. You can only go by what they say. Either you believe him or you don't.

There are a lot of people who say the right things, but don’t mean them. He still thinks he did nothing wrong with all those women. Yes, I dislike him as a person, but I’m willing to let him play ELITE ball all he wants… Why don’t you tell me when that happens.

I’d take Baker over him any day.

I'm not arguing against any of that. Its just not what you wrote in the initial post I replied to.

I'm not sure I'd want to go Baker right now, but Watson has played poorly enough to make it a discussion. I'm not sure Baker would have survived the game against Pitt. Pass protection was rough.

We did pick up his 5th year option like $14.5 million so he will here unless we trade him.

But I have a question, once that option was picked up, can we get out of it? Other than a trade?

Just a trade or eat his contract (unless he agrees to somehow restructure, which I doubt)

Shoot, I must've gotten my years mixed up. I was thinking this year was #5.


My overall point, though, was that he does have some skills... but if he's our best tackle on the roster then we need to find a better tackle.

Wills is a product of the Browns analytical approach used to select draft talent. When Andrew Berry was asked about switching RTs to the LT position, Berry made the comment that 'tackle are tackles'. Obviously Berry viewed both Wirfs and Wills the same, capable of moving from RT to LT if that was preferred by the Browns draft team.

Somehow, the Boys managed to manipulate their analytics evaluation of Wills to justify their decision to pick Wills at #10 of the 1st round while ignoring the best OT in the 2020 draft, Tristan Wirfs.

Wills scored a 9 on the wonderlic test so the Browns had Wills take the Wonderlic a second time claiming Wills scored 23 on the W Test. The 23 score just happened to the Wonderlic score that Wirfs achieved taking the test only 1 time. Surely the Browns analytics team would not try to manipulate test results to support their decision to take Wills over Wirfs...would they..?


Wirfs went on to justify his reputation as the best OT of the 2020 draft by being named to All Pro and Pro Bowl Honors in his 2nd NFL season achieved Pro Bowl and All Pro status and was again named to the Pro Bowl last season. The Tampa Bay Bucks can't thank the Browns enough for passing on Wirfs.

I think the strip sack TD play where he got beat looks a lot worse than it really is. I was ready to be done with him after watching it live, like most people. After hearing the context, I'm feeling like I should probably cut him a little slack. Asking a guy to block a pass rusher while aligned as if it is a running play when that guy knows it is a pass is tough.

I would think it would also be important to note that after 2 years of being a Pro Bowl RT, Wirfs has been switched to LT this season for Tampa. After 2-weeks, Wirfs is the 14th PFF Graded Tackle overall, the 10th PFF Graded Left Tackle overall, and the 5th graded LT in the NFC currently.

Meanwhile, after two weeks, Wills is the 66th PFF Graded Tackle overall, the 35th PFF Graded Left Tackle overall, the 17th PFF Graded Left Tackle in the AFC, and the lowest PFF Graded LT in the AFC North.

Side Note: only players rated with enough snaps to qualify was used. Wills 2-week PFF Grade = 45.0 - Wirfs 2-week PFF Grade = 75.2

It might be time to fess up that the Browns missed big time on Wills.

j/c

I think the Browns were put in a situation of their own making. They won't have a first round draft pick next year with which they could have upgraded the LT position. And as of last year Willis was graded quite a bit higher then he is this year. So their choice was to either sign Willis fifth year option or try to hit the FA market to replace him which would have been much more expensive to accomplish. Not to mention finding a viable option on the FA market at LT is not something one can often do. And what would have been very hard for anyone to have predicted is that he would take a step backwards going into this season. So if you look at what they did in real time rather than hind sight it made sense at the time IMO.

Misses happen and there have definitely been worse misses. Wirfs and Thomas have gotten a lot better between college and now. Wills hasn't. I think trying to imitate the inimitable Joe Thomas has messed up a bunch of Browns blockers. I also think Jed suffers from playing on a relatively good line. Teams attack the weak link or, at least if there is a weaker link, pressure tends to show up there first. The rest of the Giants OL is pretty bad. Tom Brady was one of the best in the business in getting the ball out early. I'm curious to see how things in Tampa Bay turn out with Baker and some OL losses against teams better than the Chicago Bears.

Even if what you say is true, it's BS to now give the Browns a pass. They had 2 opportunities the year they drafted Wills to fix the broken LT issue. First, Trent Williams was available but much like many posters here - they were ignoring the best LT in football due to the cost even though the Browns were flush in money. I took a lot of grief on this forum when I was campaigning vividly for the Browns to trade for him. 4-years later, Williams SFO has been the best LT in football for 4 years running, a 1st Team All Pro - we have Wills. Second, the Browns had an opportunity to get Wirfs, a guy who actually had LT experience but instead they drafted Wills who had never played a down at LT in high school or college. Our GM said, "tackles are tackles!" It's not like it wasn't evident in year 1 and year 2 that there was a problem with Wills. Instead, the Browns hung with him to the point of as you said, replacing him would have been much more expensive to accomplish. So now we have one of the worst LT's in the NFL with a guaranteed contract for 2024 at over 14M. Let's just hope our 230M QB doesn't get smoked by a missed block from that LT and join Chubb on the sidelines. Uh hmmm, tackles are not tackles, Mr. Berry.

I don't see anywhere that I said they made the best draft pick at the time. I even went as far as to say that they were "in a situation of their own making". So I'm not really sure who it is you're arguing with here. The only point I was addressing is the position they were in and why they signed him to that fifth year option at that time. And once again I didn't blame anyone but them for being in that situation. Did you read my post at all?

If you compare him to a guy taken after him in Tristan Wirfs, yes he is a complete bust.

The problem with your Trent Williams scenario is that you don't know whether or not they tried to get him to come to Cleveland. The problem with veterans vs rookies is that veterans have a lot more say in where they go. Plus they'd have had to trade multiple picks as well as giving the 6 year over $137 Million contract to a guy coming off a DSFP cancer scare.

Wirfs was only playing LT at Iowa in the beginning of 2019 because their starting LT was hurt, he ended up playing 161 snaps there. Most of the season he spent at RT (693 snaps.) Its hard to blame people for thinking he was a better RT than LT when his college team did as well. Plus, he graded better on the right side.

While Jed was an RT, his situation was somewhat unique in having a left handed QB for most of his college career. They were probably also swayed in a close race by things like this:


It's easy to look back in hindsight and say they screwed up. Yet, situation matters. It's impossible to actually tell how things would have ended up if players had landed on different teams. It certainly looks like they got it wrong now, but hopefully they've learned from it and have refined their process. Jones looks decent so far. (though he may have been more of a gamble given his draft position.) We'll see how it turns out.

Tackles picked in the first round of 2020

4 Andrew Thomas - Giants
10 Wills - Browns
11 Mekhi Becton - Jets
13 Wirfs - Tampa Bay
18 Austin Jackson - Miami
29 Isaiah Wilson - Titans


Also the same year 32 Buckeys went 1-2-3

At least we didn't draft Wilson.

Didn't they do that? Restructure I mean?

Yes, they restructured Wills, but it was this year's salary. The Browns cannot restructure his guaranteed 5th year option. Just a little FYI, because of this year's restructure, the Browns are on the hook for $457,353 charged to the cap each of the next 4 years if he stays with the Browns. The Browns cannot do anything with the 5th year guarantee now and any extension would start after next season even if they signed him now. In any case, only an idiot would ever sign a deal for less than his option year cost so I'd expect a new deal would probably start at 15M plus per season but he'll most likely be asking in the area of 18M-20M plus minimum range per season. The NYGiants just extended LT Andrew Thomas to a new 5-year deal in July that pays him 23.5M APY starting the year after his option which is also next year. I fully expect Wills to be asking close to the same range since that seems to be the going rate for LT's second contract. It's very scary to think that the Browns could be paying Wills over 22M per season for the body of work he's delivered thus far.

Wills is not a bust. He has been a starter all of his career. Busts carry the names of Manzell, Richardson, Quinn etc. etc.

I thought he played well today.

I sure hope we are are grooming a replacement.

That one hit was clearly late, and it was called.

Jed's biggest problem is he followed Joe Thomas.

Is Jed a great player? No

Is he a bad player? No

He's an OK player.

We re starting to see the same damn thing with Ford after a couple of games, where he played well.

Is he better than Chubb/ No


Is he better than hunt? yes?

Players change over time for one reason or another. Fans need to adjust to those changes and quit living in the past.

Good gosh.

Jed's problem is consistency, which will probably be traced to something that's up between the ears or deep in the chest cavity.

Dude puts everything you would want to see on tape. He clearly has the skills, technique, yada yada. But then for a handful of random plays the hourglass cursor is just stuck spinning. This phenomenon has reached the stage where it's brought up every game.

how did Jones grade yesterday? I truthfully haven't noticed him much at all

What do you want Wills to do on the first one? I think Bitonio needed to do a better job getting back to pick up the looper on the stunt after passing off the crashing DT. That is easier said than done and that's a reason defenses run stunts.

It would be nice to see some emotion on the 2nd one. I kind of wonder if he's dealing with depression. It could explain some things with his performance. It's easy to forget that they are people that deal with things in their lives while we're focused on the football.

It's hard to tell much of anything from stills. It doesn't look good, but what led up to it?

With Hunt (ribs, groin), Ford (shoulder) and Bitonio (ankle) all being a little banged up, the Browns offense may become more one dimensional. That means the Browns will have to rely on the vaulted o-line to protect a sore Watson (throwing shoulder). Though the Browns are an exciting 2-1, questions abound around the strength of the o-line that appears to have some cracks.

PFF Grades through 3-weeks:

OT Conklin (IR)__ 74.5 (not enough snaps played to rank = 22 snaps)
OC Harris_______74,2 (not enough snaps played to rank = 5 snaps)
OC Pocic________70.8 (ranked 5th of all OC's)
OG Teller________66.9 (ranked 15th of all OG's)
OG Bitonio______64.9 (ranked 20th of all OG's)
OG Dunn_______55.2 (not enough snaps played to rank = 11 snaps)
OT Jones (R)____52.4 (ranked 55th of all OT's)
OT Wills________47.3 (ranked 63rd of all OT's)
OT Hudson______43.1 (not enough snaps played to rank= 4 snaps)

We might be seeing a whole lot more of 12 personnel to protect the O-tackles the next 2 games. What effect this will have on the passing offense remains to be seen.

Wills has the tools but is inconsistent. He is frustrating to watch because he will win a play and then show lack of effort.

The OL is adjusting to the loss of Conklin. Jones has been good in pass protection. He is learning the run game.

DW is not easy to block for. He is mobile and will move to extend plays.

Throws outside the numbers (2022)
94.4 passer rating
7.3 yards per attempt
9.5-yard average depth of target

Throws inside the numbers (2022)
78.6 passer rating
7.0 yards per attempt
5.5-yard average depth of target

KS in the Titans went empty with five wide. This spreads the field and forces one on one. DW went to his strength.

Sacks are going to happen but so will downfield plays.

The offense is going to evolve from the loss of Nick. The OL will have to adapt.

we need our guards to be better, and that's not something I remember thinking in a while

Its curious seeing PPF posts about how good Dawand Jones has been through three games and then see a 52. Must have a super low run blocking score according to them.

PFF is not perfect.

In the end it is about was the play successful?

If DW bails out of the pocket and moves to throw or he runs. The players on the line could get poor grades.

The question is did the play succeed?

Wills is very frustrating. He has the ability he needs to motivate himself or be motivated.

He has been a decent LT prior to this season.
But, each year we hope to see him step up and be more consistent.

This season through 3 games he has been worse than the previous years.

Like a DEAD HORSE........ No Heart/ Drive.

Still early and he may improve, but he has declined.

The 2020 draft class.

The year we drafted Wills. The first OT taken 4th was Andrew Thomas.

Wills was the next taken 10th followed by Becton taken 11th and Wirfs taken 13th.

There really was no clear choice between those guys at the time.

Jed Wills is as bad as many of the excuses given for him here in the comments.

Good grief!

He reminds me of what I refer to in my nursing career as a ‘task nurse’. These nurses are good nurses when assigned a particular task. Starting an IV. Doing a wound treatment. Etc. But they don’t have the intuition or instinct to go beyond. They don’t recognize the subtle changes in a patient that may be early indicators of a looming problem. They can complete a task but can’t see the bigger picture.
Jed is a task tackle. If he’s assigned to a certain block, he does his best to get it done. Once he’s ‘done’, or beat, or the structure of the play breaks down, he’s lost. He can’t problem solve in real time.
This is not a good trait in nursing or football.

I dunno. IIRC, I thought we really wanted Thomas. He had a horrific rookie season but I thought I read he's come on strong since then. Regardless, he was picked before we were up and I don't think even hindsight could justify moving up in that draft.

With all the hand-wringing we did over Wills moving from RT to LT, I can't imagine drafting Wirfs for a tackle spot.

That leave Becton. He's been plagued with injuries but has otherwise played really well (I think?).


Wills is what he is. People are fed up with him, but the dude has talent just hasn't finished putting it together between the ears. There's value in a guy that's fringe starting-LT caliber... especially considering the left side might not be his best/natural fit.

I think there's room for improvement/shuffling in terms of our tackles, but the play coming from the middle of the line is more urgent.

Those are good points.

Wills has been a starter. Far from great but he has started. Bust is when you are taken in the first and either never become a starter or get replaced. Wills is a borderline starter.

He is young. He will play. He may be done in Cleveland. But LT are not easy finds. Good ones in FA cost.

Drafting tackles is not without risk. Jones so far has been a real find. I could see him playing LT at some point.

Wills will get through this year. He is being coached. We shall see what happens with him.

For right now and this year. It is not a big deal to me.

Yeah, the OT draft was kind of a crap shoot that year. Wirfs was probably the right pick, though having him change sides (IIRC) wasn't ideal ... but we did it with Wills anyways

Maybe the coaches might consider moving him to guard next year if we can find another LT. Just a thought.

IMO I think he remains a tackle.

Probably not with the Browns. I am not yet closing the door but close.

Wills will have a long career in the NFL if he wishes to continue to play. He will probably get a little better but I think he is what he is.

Not stressed about Wills.

I don't remember if his historical performance supports the idea of him being a better runblocker than passblocker, but I could see him moving back to his original RT position if we were able to find a more consistent pass-blocking LT. Jones has been good so far, but it's going to take more than 2 good games for me to dub him our LT of the future.

I think you meant vaunted, Steve. And from what I’m seeing in the first three games, this is a historic D at this point. I fully expect teams to catch up, but I’d be lying if I said I’m not expecting more of the same this week. And I think the lights came on last game for Watson, so if he’s not running for his life, I think we’ll be just fine. I think we’ll win this one handily but end up splitting on the season. The Ravens always get in our head at least one game.

Surely that thought couldn't have existed since Wirts had experience playing LT and RT in both high school and college. Wills on the other hand had never played a snap at LT until he came to the Browns. All the talk about it not mattering because he protected Tua's blind right side in college is hog wash. There's a completely different set-up and foot movement between the 2 tackle positions. The first step back is the most important because of the increased speed in the pros compared to college. Garrett would eat Wills up consistently if he played across from him. Like I said though, Wills is in his 4th year and still making the same mistakes he made in year 1. The Browns picked up his 5th year option, so he's guaranteed the 14.124M and has a cap hit for $14,581,352 next year due to restructuring his salary this year.

Cutting Wills isn't an option with a dead money cap hit of $15,953,409.
Trading Wills would require someone taking on his 14.124M guaranteed salary and still leave the Browns with a $1,829,409 in dead money charged to the cap.
Giving Wills a new deal would most likely cost the Browns at least 16.0M per season and probably more. That's the huge drawback of exercising that 5th year option and him playing all the time. I'm sure Wills and his agent believe he's worth a lot more than what we have seen on the field in his 4 years of starting.
Finally, the Browns could let Wills play out his 5th year option and let him walk after the season leaving the Browns with no LT with experience and the 2 off-seasons to try to address.  
As of today (this could certainly change) Wills is scheduled to be the highest paid OL for the Browns next season.

OT Wills: Contract = $4,925,729 APY, 2024 salary guaranteed 14.124M, 2024 cap hit $14,581,352
OT Conklin: Contract = 15M APY, 2024 salary = 4.5M, 2024 cap hit = 12.967M
C Pocic: Contract = 6.0M APY, 2024 salary = 1.66M, 2024 cap hit = 3.984M
OG Teller: Contract = 14.2M APY, 2024 salary = 1.5M, 2024 cap hit = $11,610,300
OG Bitonio: Contract = 16M APY, 2024 salary = 1.210M, 2024 cap hit = 12.135M
OG Forbes: Contract = 1.325M APY, 2024 salary = 1.125M, 2024 cap hit = 1.225M
OT Hudson: Contract = $1,068,104 APY, 2024 salary = 1.055M, 2024 cap hit = $1,253,104
OT Jones: Contract = $1,158,084 APY, 2024 salary = $915,000, 2024 cap hit = $1,113,084
C Wypler: Contract = $1,004,993 APY, 2024 salary = $915,000, 2024 cap hit = $959,993
C Deaton: Contract = $$935,734 APY, 2024 salary = $795,000, 2024 cap hit = $815,734
OG Dunn: Contract = 1.010 APY, 2024 salary = FREE AGENT
C Harris: Contract = $902,412, 2024 salary = FREE AGENT
OG Leatherwood: Contract = $216,000, 2024 salary = FREE AGENT

Interesting enough, the only player left out of all the OL players listed with enough salary for a restructure in 2024 would be Conklin which would free up 2.632M. All the other OL on the list are already down to the league minimum for salary, would bring less than $400,000 in cap relief, or can't be restructured.

...can you name a tackle that Myles wouldn't eat up consistently? We might get to see how Trent Williams fairs pretty soon.

Foot speed isn't Wills' problem. Neither is the side change. His technique is fine. He can perform perfectly well at LT.

Unfortunately, being able to do something and consistently doing that something aren't the same thing.

Another problem Wills faces is he follows Joe Thomas.

I am always hesitant to claim someone the best ever, but Joe was clearly on any short list of LT's.

I say this for illustrative purposes, but if you have driven a Rolls Royce for 10 years, then have to drive a Ford Taurus, no disrespect to the Taurus, it's a fine car, but it's just not going to stack up.

Wills may not even be a Taurus but there is some of that going on.

I don't disagree with what you have said but I don't think many people are or were expecting another Thomas out of Wills. The expectación level is certainly high but to be a Thomas would be a hard sell. The issue is that it is year 4 with a guaranteed 5th year option and Wills has never had a PFF grade above the low 60's and most of the time in the 50's. He's sitting at 47.3 right now and that's a far cry from Thomas' consistent mid to high 90's. They both were 1st round picks and accepting or even suggesting that Wills 47.3 PFF grade is an acceptable average play is looking at his play with blinders on. Really, the Browns have a rookie tackle on the right side out playing him right now - and "tackles are tackles" according to the Browns GM. The minimum acceptable PFF grade for a 1st round pick like Wills should be 75.0 and that would put him 16th in the league currently. Wills hasn't sniffed anything close to a 75.0 PFF grade in 3 plus years now and that would be outwardly accepting 20 points lower than Thomas as being acceptable play.

The question remains as to how long the Browns will continue to pay for his subpar play? Do they continue to wait for the lightbulb to finally come on or do they pull the plug after the 230M QB gets broke in two and out for the season? Wills footwork and speed has to be evident on every play, not just when the moment suits him. There's a lot of cap tied up in the position he's paid to protect every play. A 47.3 PFF grade is not cutting the mustard and nowhere close to being average tackle play (not being ranked 63rd out of 67 ranked tackles currently).

I would agree w/that Peen. Having to follow Thomas isn't easy, especially here (and when we are supposed to be competing)

Jed Wills is NOT a bust,
this topic title is dumb.

But but, but …. Aaron Rogers followed Brett Farve, and that turned out ok.

Agreed it can happen, but it is rare.

Wills has some back-breaking penalties. Holding, false start just off the top of my head.

[social:insta]http://twitter.com/Rob_Shenanigans/status/1708543044390105256[/social]

I dunno. That one to open the game on Cooper was pretty bad. He was just lazy and grabbed the DBs arm without putting hardly any effort into actually blocking the guy. I hope Jed's condition isn't contagious.

The OL played poorly against a depleted defense of the Ravens. Wills was awful.

Bitonio missed blocks. Harris got run over. The run blocking in general was bad.

That was a game that they better flush and start anew.

I'm growing worried about our OL in general ... and we don't have Chubb to cover up the warts

Wills is a popular scapegoat around here (not trying to defend him, he's earned his criticism), but I'm way more shocked at the play of the interior than our tackles. Bitonio and Teller, in particular, have looked dreadful compared to their usual level and we're supposedly an embarrassment of riches at center but I'm just not seeing it. Wills gets hammered on here in terms of penalties and missed blocks but off the top of my head I'd assume he's not that far out in front of the more popular starters (please correct me if I'm wrong).

You're right .. Bitonio and Teller have been sub-par and it's hurting our entire offense

I think a part of the problem might be guys are putting too much focus on trying to be technically perfect in games instead of just going out and playing. It almost looks as if they are caught up too much in what it's supposed to look like instead of responding to what's actually happening. It can be good to drill down on the details, but this may be another case of "too much of a good thing." Or that appearance may simply be due to the fact that passblocking is by nature reactive and we're somewhat giving up the initiative by default.

Or it may just be adjusting to game speed/intensity. Though, one would hope that would have happened by week 4.

The Ravens seemed to be playing like their hair was on fire on D. Maybe more running calls would have helped us to meet that intensity. I (and the coaching staff) might be too focused on the "intellectual" side of the play calling (number advantages, coverage weaknesses, etc) and not enough on the visceral side. Pass blocking is kind of like absorbing body blows, sometimes you've got to do it to set up a knockout punch. If the knockout blows aren't landing, though, you're taking a lot of damage and the opponent is going to start slipping more serious blows through your sagging defenses. Perhaps we do need to run more, or at least use more aggressive forms of passblocking (and/or RPOs). Let our OL take the fight to them. Even when the defense is setup to stop the run, maybe we need to let the OL punch them in the teeth anyway. "Pass"-ivity might not be the best fit psychologically for the guys we have on the OL. Jed certainly seems to suffer from (the) passivity at times. Our OL might be better suited to be "brawlers" than technically focused counter punchers.

We were behind the sticks a lot. "Analytically," runs aren't generally successful in those situations. Especially when Chubb isn't your RB. I do think his loss made us re-think our offensive identity and we were still figuring that identity out before he went down. Perhaps too much focus was on the QB and not enough on the OL as far as offensive identity goes.

Perhaps we can figure out a (new) way to passblock with more of a Brawler's mentality. Callahan may have his work cut out for him.

0% accuracy

I concur with your 0% accuracy. It is true that Bitonio and Teller have slipped a bit in their PFF Grades (currently ranked Teller 20th @ 65.6 and Bitonio 21st @ 65.2 among 76 rated guards) from the last couple of years when they have been in the top 10. I think you need to consider the situation presented to them different from years past. The Browns have a rookie RT who is performing well by most standards considering he's a rookie but he's a far cry from Conklin who had a PFF Grade of 74.5. Jones has needed help and has a current PFF Grade of 55.5 and ranked 53rd of 69 rated tackles warranting help that normally isn't needed. Pocic is currently the 5th best PFF Graded center in the NFL with a 72.2 grade. The huge chink in the armor is at LT where Wills right now is not only the worse or close to worse LT in the game, but he's also PFF Graded as the 64th ranked tackle out of 69 NFL ranked tackles. Almost 25% into the season and our first-round draft pick LT who just had his 5th year option picked up for 14.2M has a PFF Grade of 45.4 through 4 games. Wills is performing 10.1 grading points lower than our 4th round rookie RT Jones.

If I were a betting man, I would attribute Bitonio and Teller's slip largely to covering for the tackles. One is warranted to need help while the other, after getting an undeserved guaranteed 5th year option in his 4th year, is stinking up the joint.

People can spin it anyway they want - these are just Wills performance numbers, consistent poor numbers over his 3 plus years, and the numbers say we have one of the worse tackles in the NFL protecting Watson's blind side and it is getting worse.

They need to play better. Jones was our highest graded OL vs the Ravens. That matches what I've seen on re-watching the game, though it's not saying much. The OL struggled. Different players at different times, but they didn't do DTR any favors as a unit. DTR's inability to hit the broadside of a barn on anything down the field did the OL no favors.

Looks like Wills is more of a focal of attention than some believe here.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/lis...m_source=pushly&utm_campaign=3624135


Do the Browns have any other realistic options at left tackle?
Cory Kinnan
October 3, 2023 4:31 pm ET

The Cleveland Browns have a problem at left tackle and a big one. Former tenth overall pick in the 2020 NFL Draft Jedrick Wills started his career out as a promising rookie on a playoff team. However, since then his play has not only plateaued but fallen off of a cliff this season. This comes on the heels of giving up another three pressures in a loss to the Baltimore Ravens.

Through just four games, Wills has already surrendered 11 total pressures, one sack, and two hits on the quarterback. For reference, Wills gave up just 15 total pressures in his rookie season and 19 in his second season in the NFL.

The Browns picked up his fifth-year option this offseason, guaranteeing him about $15 million in 2024. However, as it currently sits, this is not a viable option for a team with Super Bowl aspirations.

The tough reality, however, is that there are not 30 good left tackles in the NFL, let alone enough for every team to have two. And this is what the Browns have to come to terms with. There are no tackles on the open market to come in and plug-and-play.

The options are limited, and the bounds of reality have to be stretched to get here. However, here are a few options, including a couple that may not be all that realistic.

OT James Hudson III

Do you want the most realistic option to get Wills off the field? Bench him and start James Hudson III.

The only issue is that Hudson III has not been great when he has come on the field in relief of players like Jack Conklin and Wills over the past two seasons. His performances in the preseason against second and third-stringers did not do much to instill confidence either.

There is a reason rookie Dawand Jones was named the starting right tackle after the injury to Conklin despite Hudson’s spot-starting experience a year ago. But hey, a change could be a change at this point.

Broncos OT Garett Bolles

The obvious name on the trade market is Denver Broncos’ starting left tackle Garett Bolles. However, Bolles is already 31 years old as he was a rather old rookie out of the University of Utah and is under contract just through 2024. To add to that, his cap hit in the 2024 season is at $20 million, making the price to acquire him plus the price to pay him a bit much.

A mainstay of the Broncos since he was drafted, Bolles recently expressed his frustration with losing games in Denver. With Sean Payton now at the helm as well, he could be a coach who is looking to bring in all of his guys as well. This Broncos team is not good, and they may begin stockpiling assets.

Some think Bolles is a realistic option, and he is a player the Browns could go out and get still, but this kind of move would stretch Cleveland thin of assets.

Raiders OT Kolton Miller

Another starting tackle that would not cost their current team much money in dead cap space to move, Kolton Miller is an athletic specimen at the left bookend for the Las Vegas Raiders. And realistically for the Raiders, they will likely be looking for a new head coach and quarterback this offseason.
This lends a hand to a possible rebuild and toward the search for more draft capital at the expense of currently high-paid players on the roster. Like Bolles, however, the cost to acquire Miller would not be a cheap one for the Browns. However, if they were able to add Miller, they would inherit just a cap hit of around $15.6 million per year and a player who is under contract through 2025.

Again, we are scraping the barrel for any realistic tackle options, and the bounds of realism have to be stretched a bit.

The road forward is not optimistic.

Here is the reality of the situation: Jedrick Wills is guaranteed about $15 million next season. If the Browns decide to go out and get a Bolles or Miller from a bad team who might be looking to reset, they will have to give up a pretty penny and then try to get Wills off their books, so they are not over-invested at left tackle.

Left tackle is a hard position to find, so there is a possibility the Browns could find a taker. I mean, look at what Jawaan Taylor and Andre Dillard just got this offseason.

Reasons for optimism are all but lost with Wills. And to make matters worse, there is no real possibility of getting out of this rut without being financially reckless. The Browns have been careful with their rollover cap because that is how this spending spree is sustainable long-term.

The fiscally responsible thing to do is ride it out with Wills or bench him in favor of James Hudson III, but neither of those provides much of a promising outlook. They have put themselves in a position to compete for a Super Bowl. Every chip is in the middle of the table, so they may have to ask themselves if over-extending on the books this year (which will have repercussions in future years) is worth it to throw in one more chip.

I have the same questions at work. Everyone can identify the problem. What is the best solution?

In this case, what options are available that are better than Willis?

I personally am ok with Willis. He is average to above average. Watson and Willis need to work things out.

If you were the GM and disagreed with me, share your solution.

Not sure where Cory is getting his numbers as compared to Zegura on Browns State run radio. Zegura stated on Monday that Wills gave up 6 pressures alone in the game against the Ravens. He went on to say Wills has accounted for 18 of the 44 total pressures the OL has allowed thus far in the season.

It raises an eyebrow when the Browns own radio show permits the hosts to bag on a player.

One of these things is not like the others with the #Browns offensive line. Here are the PFF pass-block/run-block grades with pressures allowed and sacks given up:

- Wyatt Teller: 78.2/63.3 (5 pressures, 2 sacks)
- Joel Bitonio: 74.1/59.0 (8 pressures, 0 sacks)
- Dawand Jones: 71.5/41.4 (8 pressures, 0 sacks)
- Ethan Pocic: 65.1/71.8 (5 pressures, 1 sack)
- Jedrick Wills: 53.8/44.0 (18 pressures, 2 sacks)

Wills is an absolute liability at left tackle. The Browns cannot continue putting him out there and expecting anything to change. Wills gave up 41 pressures on 1,152 snaps in 2022 (0.03/snap). He's already given up 18 on 301 snaps this season (0.06/snap).

Also, the offensive line as a unit is not good. Out of 134 offensive lineman with at least 200 snaps played this season, the Browns don't have a single player graded inside the top-20:

- LT Wills: 45.4 (125th)
- LG Bitonio: 65.2 (48th)
- C Pocic: 72.2 (23rd)
- RG Teller: 65.6 (47th)
- RT Jones: 55.5 (102nd)

The complete drop-off of one of the best offensive lines in the NFL is disappointing to say the least. Without Nick Chubb and without a dominant, mauling offensive line, the Browns are suffering from an identity crisis on offense. And fans can absolutely feel it.

It was that second part of that tweet that I was trying to point out. IMO, I think that's more shocking than Wills continued decline (though to be honest, that first part of the tweet paints a far worse picture of Wills than I thought).

Is age finally catching up to Bitonio? I get Teller having to help Jones and the unfamiliarity there, but Bitonio has been playing next to Wills for a while now.

We've also played 4 stout dlines in a row to start the season (and have our toughest test coming up).


Wills has been steadily building the argument to NOT be our starting LT for the future for a while now. The problem is that in order to get him out of that spot, you have to find someone better, and that challenge is compounded by our salary cap.

I think we eagerly watch how Jones handles the year, and make a decision on him in the off-season (IIRC, he was a LT in college?). His passblocking seems to have held up well for a rookie and his strength should improve once he gets a full off-season with our training staff and going forward.

Jones played RT. Paris Johnson Jr. played LT.

I'll try.

Ther Browns are the highest spend team in the NFL this season. They basically have put all their eggs into the basket for this year because changes WILL occur next year. How do you then go into the "bye week" with almost 25% of the season gone with the worse or close to worse LT in football and expect to win? Not unlike Stefanski, it's no secret that Wills has played poorer each year. It's grossly obvious that picking up the 5th year option was a huge error in judgement also. That aside, the Browns can't continue to gamble week in and week out that this won't be the game that Wills misses a block that takes out an already injured 230M QB. The thought process that Wills is average to above average is a joke. Wills is an o-line liability at this point in his career plain and simple - his PFF Grades confirm this.

Better options:

1) First and foremost, Berry should have been banging the bushes long before now to address the LT issue via trade, FA, or PS players. I don't believe for a moment that there are not opportunities out there to correct the issue. Unfortunately, taking that path means that the Browns as an organization would have to admit that they were wrong about Wills. IMHO, that more than anything is the reason for the dragging of the feet in this case.

2) In the short term, if Berry is not going to spend the money, the most viable option is to move Bitonio to LT and play Dunn at the guard position. The snaps that Dunn has played has shown a comparable level of performance as Bitonio in pass blocking while Bitonio would be a huge upgrade in pass blocking compared to Wills at this stage of the season. Run blocking as a tandem (Dunn and Bitonio) would be a huge upgrade over the grades Bitonio and Wills as a tandem have generated. If Bitonio has lost a step, the move to LT might be a smart move.

Biggest Fear:

The biggest fear is that Berry will continue to sit on his hands. 2, 3, 5, to 7 weeks from now finally coming to the conclusion that Wills is not the guy will have irreversible damage to the Browns 2023 season. The loss of Chubb is and will have a dramatic effect on the team progressing through 2023. Compounding the problem by failing to address the LT issues would be an even greater loss to the success of the season. As a fan, I'm pissed off that this issue wasn't addressed after the last 2-years of regression by Wills and then handing him an unearned and undeserved 14.2M guaranteed 5th year option. However, we are where we are and ignoring the problem is not going to make it go away. I just hope that Nick Bosa doesn't break Watson in half in a couple of weeks. It will be too late then to address the problem.

The thing missing is root cause analysis.

WHY is he giving up as much as he does after getting tested and doing so well as a rookie? WHY did he do as well as he did as a rookie?? What is the change/difference??
Is it lingering injury issues?
Is he not getting help that he used to get??
Has he been "figured out" and he doesn't have an answer for how to handle what defenses are doing to beat him?
Is it Bitonio??
Are defenses doing things that our blocking scheme doesn't handle well?


Without knowing the WHY, you can't formulate a proper HOW.
The big problem for us on here is that pretty much none of us can know the WHY.

Wills and Bitonio have been awful handling stunts. Teams have been using them a lot. Unfortunately, it seems that when Wills is thinking about the stunts, he gets beat outside.

Wills stinks and is either lazy or just so slow to react to things. Couple that with no RB and an injured QB ... and we've got our work cut out

True, Wills is a mystery as to the why? ... but a residual effect has been with the two man game together with Bitonio who seemingly doesn't trust Wills, because Wills is not in good position (hips not parallel to the LS) to exchange and pass off the DT in order to pick up the outside DE looping around into the B gap in the heat of battle.

I don't believe that Joel forgot how two play the two man game ... that old saying of "you're only as strong as your weakest link" rings true once again.

We know that Joel is good player, but he can't be expected to block two pass rushers at the same time.

DCs' will find your weak link and find multiple ways to exploit it.

Our adjustment (in part) was to use Bryant to help on the edge to cover up for Wills propensity to open his hips and get beat on an inside move ... but he had a least one wiff on the edge, and really he's not that guy, also if you're using Njoku all the time, then you're making it easy for the defense to double your WRs'.

Then there's Hudson in his third year who hasn't pushed Wills whatsoever for playing time, and Jones (rightfully so) started ahead of him.

If I'm AB this would be my #1 priority before the trading deadline, and the sooner the better imo...

Stefanski LOVES Bryant ... and he is a liability in the blocking game (and then when he either fumbles or drops passes, one has to ask WHY does Stefanski love him lol)

maybe we should be kicking the tire on Lael Collins during this bye week?

No doubt in my mind. He is getting figured out.

Football is microscopic. Film study is a science. Coaches study tape intensely. Players study who they are going to play against.

Clowney beat Wills and took his lunch money.

Wills must play better now. If not they may have to move Bitonio to LT and insert the best option at guard.

The armchair OL coach in me says his problems boil down to two main issues:

1. Motor to complete a play/Inconsistency
2. Upper body strength.

I think he actually has really good foot work and overall athleticism. But I think he loses a lot of battles not being strong enough to maintain his blocking. Maybe that has to do with lower body strength too, but I see him getting handled when it comes to fighting off various arm moves and using his arms to guide his defender away from the pocket.

might not be a bad idea

Looking to dump Wills?


https://brownswire.usatoday.com/lis...m_source=pushly&utm_campaign=3661426

Dump? Probably not.

Bench? Maybe.

Probably not even related to Wills.

It's just an "article" based on an article based on the tweet we've all already talked about where the team is expected to look into trades for OLine, without position being specified. The rest of it is nothing but speculation and guessing based on the guessing of someone else.

That was my thought too. We'll see.

Well, if it wasn't about Wills then the problem is with the coaches too because Wills has been stinking up the joint.

If you say so, chief.

This article stems from a report where the Browns were looking at OL via the trade market, not specific to tackles. And perhaps, as a result of the fact that both Pocic and Bitonio were dealing with injuries. And it has now morphed into who "could" the Browns pursue as part of many what If scenarios should it be a tackle. Nothing more, nothing less.

Whether we pursue an upgrade at LT, when does the light shine on the guy who picked up Willl's 5th yr option after having seen NOTHING that merited such a move?

The same guy who just HAD to have Watson at whatever the cost?

The same guy that throws money around on one hand and pinches $$$ at the backup QB spot?

Lately, the performance of the Browns HC Stefanski and the performance of the Browns management team are being questioned...are they up to task of building the Browns franchise into a winner, capable of making a run at the playoffs and a potential shot at a Super Bowl.

This year, even the Browns ownership have noted that they have expectations.

Suddenly the subject of potential moves to improve the Browns OLine becomes a hot topic..?..a bit odd, imo.

How frickin' depressing. It was already supposed to have been built....for this season. Our best players (Garrett, Chubb, Bitonio, Ward, Cooper) were never going to be better. The time was now and they failed. Get ready for another rebuild. While we were "just about there", other teams like the Bengals, Bills,
Dolphins and now the Lions jumped right past us.

Exactly and it's not the first time teams have jumped ahead of us. Some have done it more than once!!!

I don't disagree with critiquing Berry. Everyone deserves to be assessed and reviewed.

But I still believe the biggest problem is Stefanski. No roster is perfect. There's a balancing act that has to be done between depth and spend and the future and free agency and the draft. And with that balance the Browns have one of the most talented rosters in the league. How does that equate to shining a light on Berry? How much more could he have done? Kept Dobbs? Sure, maybe that's a mistake. But no situation is perfect. The Wills fifth year option is not a mistake. Maybe it looks like a mistake in hindsight, but it wasn't a mistake at the time.

Stefanski has had a talented roster the entire time he has been here and imo doesn't have a whole lot to show for it. He has one of the worst losses in the history of the NFL last year against the Jets. He doesn't win important games at critical moments with healthy rosters or injured rosters. He doesn't stack wins. He's yet to start 2-0 against some really favorable early schedules over his tenure. The best unit on the team, the one that plays with passion, aggression, speed, and want to he doesn't even coach. He's always caught in video clips telling the team it's "about the work" but the work doesn't produce results. Players will tune that stuff out when they don't believe or don't see it turn into results. I watch these clips and have a hard time believing the players get up for this guy. The defense gets up for Schwartz, you can see it on the field. But the team as a whole getting up to run through a wall for Stefanski? Does anyone feel or see that?

I've arrived at a point with the Browns that life is too short to wait around for this franchise to ever get over the hump. Spend your Sundays doing stuff that makes you happy. If they ever do get over the hump, tune back in.

He managed to take the Browns to the playoffs with the talent provided him by the former GM. Only one of those two things has changed. The GM.

He's continued to be provided with ample amounts of talent by the new GM.

And the results keep trending downward.

Ample talent on paper looks great. Yet with what didn't look so good on paper he coached the team to the playoffs. Maybe it's more about how players fit together than what it looks like on paper.

Rex Ryan said that for 5million a year he’d be happy to coach again. Wonder what our O would look like then LOL 😂